Conference terri::cars_uk

Last Wednesday's Autocar & Motor also has a review. They rate it quite highly!


	Ian

    
    	Anyone have a copy that I can borrow for an hour or three please?
    
    	I'm in DECdirect in REO D1/7  830-2864
    
    				Malcolm.

    I sat in front of TV awaiting Top Gear to start for two hours and then
    missed the first 10 mins of it, hence Xantia review; I was watching a
    pre-recorded program.
    
    Did anyone record it ? If so, would like to borrow tape. OR
    
    Can someone tell me if it is repeated during the week sometimes.
    
    Thanks, PErwesh 

As far as I remember, it is repated about 5.00pm on Friday -today!. So you 
will need to get someone to record it for you, or take a half day!.

Steve

The Xantia review seemed like a bit of a waste of time. No information on prices, 
specification, performance. Basically they said the car was great to drive, and
it looks fairly good too. I think they'd have been better off if they'd waited till
nearer the UK release date!


	Ian

    I've got 99% of TOP GEAR on tape, including all the Xantia test,
    however as Ian says, you've not missed much !
    
    If you want to borrow it mail me at the above before 5:30
    
    Steve.

Well the launch date is this thursday (20th) but it in the shops now to look at and 
I did and 

				*** I LOVE IT ******

Plenty of passenger room, particularly at the rear, and a large square boot.
It's very attractive and it's competitively priced. I think it'll give the modeo a 
run for it's money.

Prices released are for the 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 and 2.0 16v petrol engines in Xantia, LX, 
SX and SVX trim. But they've also announced the diesel and Turbo-diesel models, 
though no prices. They claim the diesels will be available in time for August 1st.

The SX model with the 2.0 and 1.9 TD engines get ABS as standard, (as does the 
SVX) on top of electric windows all round, electric sun roof and electric adjust and 
heated door mirors (both sides, not penny pinching like the BX and ZX). 

The VSX gets the Hydractive II suspension (more reactive than the XM version), the 
rest get BX like suspension system. They all get the passive rear steering like the 
ZX has.

Now if someone would like to put in for a quote or two.....

Richard
 

Prices Are... (inc VAT)

	1.6i		10895.00
	1.6i LX		11795.00
	1.6i SX		12895.00

	1.8i LX		12095.00
	1.8i SX		13295.00

	2.0i LX		12795.00
	2.0i SX		13950.00
	2.0i VSX	15995.00
	2.0i VSX 16V	17095.00

/Stephen D
{Waiting for the Diesel 1.9TD VSX}

Just got back from a test drive, with the updated price list, INCLUDING THE DIESELS.

There's no penalty with the prics of the normally aspirated following the 1.8 
engine (except for the lead-in model), and the turbo following the 2.0 litre engine. 

Prices Are... (inc VAT)

        Xantia 1.6i            10895.00		Xantia 1.9D
        Xantia 1.6i LX         11795.00
        Xantia 1.6i SX         12895.00

        Xantia 1.8i LX         12095.00		Xantia 1.9D LX
        Xantia 1.8i SX         13295.00		Xantia 1.9D SX

        Xantia 2.0i LX         12795.00		Xantia 1.9TD LX
        Xantia 2.0i SX         13950.00		Xantia 1.9TD SX
        Xantia 2.0i VSX        15995.00		Xantia 1.9TD VSX
        Xantia 2.0i VSX 16V    17095.00

My impressions: (2.0i VSX)

I love the looks (whoops said that before) OK. New engine (595 miles) so not 
possible to say about absolute performance, but more than adequate, certainly better 
than the mondeo 2.0i 16V.

Handling superb (it would be with the hydractive II suspension) even the odd sudden 
turn (well I *thought* the road was going straight on!) didn't unsettle it.

Steering light and responsive. Gearchange reasonably good, though you do have to 
depress the clutch FULLY or you can baulk it. Surprising as take up is near the top 
of the pedal movement. 

The gearbox *still* has the problem I reported on testing the very first of the new 
boxes in the 405, i.e. whilst in 5th move the gearstick forward and to the right and 
then you can move it freely forwards and backwards into the neutral plane whilst it 
is still in gear. seems you can move it out of it's gate!.

Brakes very good but *very* delicate, I know I had BX's for 5 years, but it still 
threw me several times.

I found the seat squab quite short, the seats in my Rover 416 come all the way out 
behind my knees. These were 3/4 thigh which didn't feel as comfortable. (P.S. I'm 
not tall at 5'8"). 

I also found the noise level fairly high at speed (you had to raise voices at 
80MPH). I thought the ZX volcane I previously drove was much quieter. 

Overall I'd give it an 9 (I'd give the mondeo an 8), not a 10 as I'd expected to.

Richard
{Waiting for the Diesel 1.9TD SX

    Xantias are suffering at the moment.  There's a problem with the
    electric sunroof that causes the car to catch fire.  Apparently it is
    spreading like wildfire !  5 last Tuesday morning. They know how
    to fix it though and there is a BIG recall out.  Citroen are replacing
    the burnt ones at their own expense with new ones (nabbed from all the
    dealers) so their may be a shortage for a while.
    
    tp

    
    
    Would someone who got one give some impressions of ownwership ?

	Well, I took delivery last Saturday (13th!) whilst off sick, so I haven't
done many miles - about 140 as I reached work this morning, my first day back.

	I had Airconditioning and a VSL engine immobiliser fitted.  The Engine 
immobiliser just means pushing a little tag strip into a hole between the 
Steering Wheel and the "Ignition" Key slot (this slot is very recessed and I find
it awkward to fit the key) and immediately removing it, then put the key in the 
slot and turn the "ignition" on.  If you don't reset the Engine Immobiliser
first, then you can only get the "Auxilaries" functionality, even if you turn 
the key fully.

	Since this is my own car, I am going to run it in VERY carefully, so I 
haven't exceeded 2,000 RPM yet, hence I can't say anything about the performance.

	After my 165,000 miles in three BX Diesels, the very first impression 
was one of solid build, almost like driving a Limo.  It is enormously quieter 
than the BXs, the Steering is much lighter, the Dashboard is somewhat 
intimidating at first and lights up like an aircraft cockpit after dark.  It is 
(officially!) quieter than the Mondeo 2.0i (petrol), which is pretty good for 
a Diesel!  Or pretty bad for the Mondeo!

	I was concerned about the shortness of the Squab at first, but find that 
I am getting used to it quickly.  I don't know what it will be like on my next 
trip to Spain/Portugal next year though.

	I can't offer any suggestions about fuel consumption, but it is VERY
much easier (and quicker) to fill the tank right up to the brim, although it 
still takes a few minutes to get the last half gallon or so of Diesel in.

	Problems?  It doesn't have Dim-Dip, Concorde say it should; According to 
the Handbook, the Passenger side external Mirror should move downwards to look
at the ground by the rear wheel when Reverse is engaged - it doesn't (but then
it also says that Deadlocks will be fitted to future models - mine has them!),so
who can tell; There are two push switches for the Rear Wiper: one for Wash/Wipe 
about six times; and one latching one for the Rear (intermittant) Wipe, which 
seems to be the only way to give the Rear Windscreen a single wipe!

	The ride seems heaps better than the BX TZD Turbo!  Mind you, I haven't 
exceeded 50 MPH yet, nor cornered hard (those tyres are going to be VERY well 
run-in, I can tell you!), but the whole car seems to exhude (sp?) confidence
in a way that the it drives.  The Steering is so much lighter than the BX
which also has Power Steering, but it is 3.5 turns lock to lock versus 2.7 in
the BX.

	That is for starters, I am very glad to have the car and look forward to 
a couple of hundred thousand or so miles in it.

				Malcolm.

PS. Test ride anyone?  It is only insured for Sheila and I to drive it.
	 ^^^^

Re Have'nt exceeded 2000RPM as running in:

Running in depends more on not straining and not setting a wear pattern too early 
on in an engine's life. If you set it into a pattern of not running above 2000RPM, 
then when you do want to go above that limit you'll find the wear pattern wrong and 
maybe make things worse!.

I've always found driving moderately, but flexibly has made all the new cars I run 
perform exceptionally well as they've loosened up.

I'd say drive it lightly, don't race in any gear, nor rev to maximum for any length 
of time, BUT, by all means drive it in it's intended operating envelope, (from idle 
up to maybe 4000, 4250 RPM) and don't keep the revs TOO CONSTANT but vary them 
continuously.

Richard (Who's had two BX diesels and would love to have this car)  

Newly fitted cruise control ??

Tell me more - was it a kit or dealer fit option ?

Andy

	I had it fitted by arrangement with Eric White's Garage in Ascot a few
days before I went on Holiday early June.  They provided a temporary loan car.

	They sent the car away to someone else to supply and fit which took two
days, if I remember correctly.  It is an electronic unit.  Driving long
distances fast on French Autoroutes (ie. where you CAN really keep a constant
speed) is much easier with the Cruise Control as there is one less thing to
concentrate upon (speed).

				Malcolm.

    Two questions:
    
    1) when is the estate due - anyone any idea?
    
    2) on the BX, the accelerator pedal was at a weird angle that required
       your tootsies to be high and pulled back towards the knee.  The main
       benefit of cruise control on the BX was to give your bent foot a rest! 
       Is the Xantia pedal more comfortable? 
    
    Cheers-Ken

    Malcolm - why did you stick to less than 2000 rpm during run-in? 
    Surely at that the turbo never cut in?
    
    I thought the advice was to run it up and down the rev and speed range,
    but avoid use of full throttle and harsh braking.  In fact just like
    economy driving.
    
    And for all Xantia drivers - there's a recall to for the handbrake. 
    Expect your paperwork soon to fix a problem of them running away when
    parked on a slope.

    I've got an SX which has 4 wheel steering.  I.e when cornering some
    clever bitter of suspension on the rear wheels causes them to steer
    round the bend.
    
    As expected this gives a handling feel quite unlike any other vehicle. 
    However I'd like ot know if my particular car is as it should be...
    
    When going into a bend fast the car steers a very tight line until,
    suddenly, the front outside corner seems to 'dig in' hard.  At this
    point it tries to tighten up the corner in a most alarming way.
    
    Is this normal?  So I have to get used to it.
    
    Or is there something on the vehicle (other than the driver) that needs
    adjusting?  If so what?
    
    Participants views are awaited with interest...

Front wheel drive tends to understeer, therefore the g-forces make the 
driver turn harder and harder into the corner - trying to counter the 
wayward front end - until the car's steering geometry starts to resemble 
that of a dumper truck. At which point it will either rapidly tighten the 
line or go straight off the road.

A theory based on no experience whatsoever of 4WS!

Rupert 8^)

    >>When going into a bend fast the car steers a very tight line until,
    >>suddenly, the front outside corner seems to 'dig in' hard.  At this
    >>point it tries to tighten up the corner in a most alarming way.
    
    Are you doing anything special at the time, like snapping your foot off
    the throttle? If you do nothing different (ie. enter the corner, car
    understeers, suddenly snaps to a tighter line) then yes something's
    wrong. If you brake/snap off the throttle or turn hard, this
    might explain the strange behaviour.... but then again, the suspension
    on these Xantia's is supposed to be all whizard-hi-tech new-fangled
    business anyway....
    
    As for .-1 "Stick with RWD, FWS - it's better"
    				      ^^^^^^^^^^^ - this could be argued
    						  'till the sun goes around
    						   the moon :-)
    
    Dan

Re.25

>>>    Malcolm - why did you stick to less than 2000 rpm during run-in? 
>>>   Surely at that the turbo never cut in?
    

	I always run tyres in VERY carefully - it gives around 20% longer life -
sticking to a 2000 RPM is simply a self disciplining thing towards that end. 
Not only that, it does help with the fuel economy.

	The turbo on the Xantia comes in much more progessively than the BX one,
even so, there isn't much power below 2000 RPM I'll agree.


>>>    And for all Xantia drivers - there's a recall to for the handbrake. 
>>>    Expect your paperwork soon to fix a problem of them running away when
>>>    parked on a slope.


	This is a well known phenomona (sp?) on cars with Disk brakes all
around.  If you park with the Brake Disks hot, when they cool down, they
naturally get thinner and this in turn slightly reduces the pressure of the Hand
Brake Pads on the Disk surface, resulting in a "less fully on" Hand Brake.  I
had heard about it, but haven't been recalled for that one yet - can't see that
they can do much about it anyway.

	My car has been recalled once, to replace the tensioner pulley and add
another one on the belt drive to the Air Conditioning.  I went to Concorde
Garage in their new location (very swish, used to be Changa Garage many years
ago) for that one about a month ago.  They loaned me a car, 'cos it took half a
day.

				Malcolm.

    All the disk braked cars I've looked at, which isn't many!) have small
    drum brakes for the handbrake. Is this another whacky citroen approach?
    
    Andrew

    I thought the Xantia handbrake problem was more to do with when the
    suspension settles.

//    I've got an SX which has 4 wheel steering.
    
//    ...
    
//    When going into a bend fast the car steers a very tight line until,
//    suddenly, the front outside corner seems to 'dig in' hard.  At this
//    point it tries to tighten up the corner in a most alarming way.
    
//    ...
    
//    Is this normal? 
    
    Well, it may be intentional. In a bid to prevent their customers from
    killing themselves, car designers are resorting to some interesting
    techniques. One used is to cause the car do do something to unsettle
    the driver some way before the limit of adhesion is reached. Ford
    claim to have used this approach and they may not be the only ones.
    
    Just a possibility.
    
    John O'Connor

    Ref -1
    
    Yes, front wheel drivecars areset to understeer earlier than they
    need/will do for this reason. I read it somewhere!

    Chaps,
    
    there was a report on the handbrake problem on Radio 5 yesterday. It
    was one of those consumer type things about Citroen denying
    resonsibility even after they'd issued internal 'alert' notices, but
    did say that the problem can occur up to 45 minutes after parking.
    
    It didn't mention the cause although I'd heard quite a while ago that
    it was due to disk cooling, but I can't remember the source.
    
    Peter

    Don't these people leave their cars in gear when parked?
    
    Huw. 

    Well my Pug 405 is front-wheel drive and has the handbrake on the back
    wheels, as does my Escort estate, also FWD. As if I need any, this note
    contains still more reasons for me to never buy a Citroen...
    
    Laurie.

    Having owned a BX in the past I wondered why it should have the handbrake
    cabled to the front wheels, so I asked the dealer...
    
    The answer was: when you park the car and put the handbrake on, the
    suspension doesn't sink immediately but when it does the rear wheels
    actually move forward (or backward, I can't remember!).
    
    Watch your back wheels as the car sinks (if you can be bothered!)
    
    		Jon.

    I've just had the handbrake recall done.  The service manager explained
    as follows:
    
    The original problem was when people braked hard just before parking
    the discs got hot.  Then if they didn't pull the handbrake up tight the
    brakes eased off when the discs cooled.  The first step was a notice
    sent to all drivers reminding them to make sure the handbrake was fully
    applied.
    
    This didn't work in all cases, so now they've changed the mechanism. 
    The new one has the first eight notches on the ratchet removed.  This
    means that it won't even think about catching until the brakes on
    tight.  I must say it feels unusual to pull the handbrake up such a
    long way before feeling the rathchet.
    
    He also advised me to hold the foot brake on whilst applying the
    handbrake to ease the tension on the cables.

    
    Does anyone know if there's a sporty Xantia?
    
    I believe the Xantia replaced the BX and that had 8 valve and 16
    valve GTi versions (the 8 valve I drove was a very impressively handling
    car), but none of the Xantias I've seen look overtly sporty.
    
    Do Citroen only make cars for the trilby hatted diesel market now?
    
    Mark
                      

    
    Yep, there's a 2.0 16v Xantia, which you can get with Activa (is that
    what it's called? I forget...) suspension if you pay an extra grand or
    so - that's for the active suspension, and quite impressive it is too
    by all the publicity pictures.
    
    Chris.

    Starting from the BX, Citroen moved into 2 different directions:
    
    - light and sporty ZX with very high cornering ability, light weight
      and economy, at the expense of comfort
    
    - heavier and more comfortable Xantia, hydraulic suspension, lots of
      insulating material, etc ... and higher prices.

    Just read that Citroen (Peugeot) are following Audi's example in
    releasing their 2litre 4cyl engine with a small turbocharger that spins
    most of the time. The power output jumps from 123 to 150bhp. I don't
    have the torque figure, but it's a flat curve with a lot of torque
    available between around 2000 and 5500 rpm.
    
    This engine is available only on the Xantia. Supposedly it will move to
    the Peugeot 405 unless they release the 406 in the meantime ...

    
    Patrick,
    
    Will this engine replace the current 2 litre or perhaps the 2L 16v?
    Do you happen to know which models (eg LX, SX ) it will be available
    in?
    
    Thanks,
    Richard.

    Correction: this engine was already available on the XM and 605.
    
    About the Xantia, I don't have details. I know for sure that it will be
    available on the Activa. What I have read makes me think that it will
    definitely obsolete the 16V.
    
    I'll see if I can dig additional data.

    Chaps,
    
    Does anyone have knowledge of the 'computer controlled' suspension on
    the VSX model. I assume that this is NOT the activa system
    
    I'm looking at a second hand VSX turbo diesel.
    
    thanks
    
    Peter

    Yup!
    
    	I have one.  The only problem is front tyre wear.  They only last
    about 12,000 to 15,000 miles.  Because the suspension holds the car
    much "flatter" in cornering than "normal" cars (is there such a
    thing?), it throws a larger load on the inside tyres with the result
    that long before the tread wears down to safe limits, the tyre
    shoulders (especially the unseen ones!) get worn down abnormally.  Of
    course, if you never go round corners, this is not a problem. 
    Unfortunately, I haven't found many roads that will accomodate this
    style of driving.
    
    	The latest suggestion from Citroen is to fit 205/50 tyres, however,
    the law says that they must be fitted on the REAR first, so my rear
    tyres moved to the front (about half worn at 25,000 miles).  I've only
    done 29,000 miles now so I can't really comment upon the effect of the
    larger tyres until I fit them to the front as well.
    
    				Malcolm.

    >>	The latest suggestion from Citroen is to fit 205/50 tyres, however,
    >>  the law says that they must be fitted on the REAR first, so my rear
    
    which law is this Malcolm, Plod or physics ?
    
    Graham

    
    	It was the Tyre sales company that said that things had to be done
    this way.  So I don't know the answer really.
    
    	I can see the sense of fitting radials to the rear first 'cos that
    affects handling to quite a large extent, but 195/55 to 205/50?
    
    				Malcolm.

    
    I changed the tyres on my Peugeot 205 GTI from 185/55 to 195/50's. The
    tyre fitters said their was no problem in changing the tyres to this
    size on the standard wheels, but they had to be done on both sides of
    an axle at a time ( i.e. front left and front right ) pretty obvious
    really. They also said that given the fact the Peugeot was front wheel
    drive, the tyres would be better off at the front first since these are
    the tyres that do most of the work !!
    
    I can honsetly see no reason why they recommend fitting them at the
    rear first since again the Xantia is front wheel drive so they would be
    more important at the front.
    
    The only down side to this is that it will increase the grip at the
    front, which means the rear is more likely to lose grip first in on the
    limit cornering - which means you might get less understeer and
    possibly more oversteer. This is the only affect on handling I can
    think of.
    
    Rick
    

    The Citroen CX has wider tyres at the front than at the back as
    standard.
    
    tmp

    
    Re .56
    
    The CX I had (Athena) had the same tyres front and back - but the track
    was most definitely wider at the front.
    
    Richard

    I recently test drove a Xantia Activa, which I'm looking at as an
    alternative to a Vectra.  I currently drive a 2l 8v Cavalier, which is
    OK but a smidgeon underpowered for long continental drives, and A/B
    road overtaking.  I found the Vectra to be more cramped and short of
    headroom, whilst the Xantia was much more space efficient and had a
    much more relaxed driving position.
    
    The low pressure Turbo on the Activa is superb compared to previous
    turbo boosted cars I've driven previously, in that you hadly know
    it's there.  I found braking very strange, as the self levelling gismo
    makes it feel as if you're cadence braking even when you're not.  I'm
    told this is a normal Citroen facet, but having never driven one before
    cannot comment. 
    
    The Activa suspension is a dream, particularly in a series of bends
    where covnetional suspension starts a pendulum motion, and the Activa
    just sits tight.  This gives the advantages of a tightly sprung and
    damped suspension. allowing you to concentrate on controlling the car
    rather than avoiding falling out of your seat, and still retains a
    comfortable ride.
    
    The boot space is no much larger than Vectra, but far more pratical,
    unless you carry pingpong balls or other oddments which fit around
    wheel arches etc.    
    
    Between the two, I'd definitely plump for the Xantia.  What a shame
    about the lease price!!!!
    
    Chris
    
    
    the Vectra 

    >Vectra to be more cramped and short of headroom
    
    Have you considered the low cost 'air cond. instead of sunroof' option ?
    I would have gone this route if I had ordered a Vectra. This
    would certainly give more headroom.
    
    Royston

    To be honest, I was very short of time to go looking at these things,
    and all I had read prepared me for the Vectra having more space, not less.
    
    Also, the garages I wnet to rarely seemed to have the car I was
    actually interested in, and the salesmen all seemed to suggest that
    all seats in a model range were the same height, or at least that the
    one I ws interested in would certainly have at least as much headroom
    if not more.  
    
    I was not prepared to make a decision that I have to live with for
    three years based on a salesman's often incorrect assumptions.
    
    The same ws true of the Xantia incidentally, where the garage did not
    have an Activa without a sunroof, but at least the salesman was honest
    enough to say that he couldn't tell whether removal of the sunroof gave
    any additional headroom.
    
    In the end, I'll probably decide for neither of these cars.  I am
    tempted by an Omega, due to comparitive costs on the scheme, and a seat
    I can fit into, but need to see the FY97 figures first!
    
    Thanks for the suggestion though.
    
    Chris