Conference terri::cars_uk

    As I have already stated, I have placed my order for a Stratos kit car.
    
    There are two particular kits of this car available in the U.K. (that
    I know of).  I sent off for information on both of these.
    
    The first, the one I am buying, has been available for a few years now.
    This is the 'Transformer HF2000', made by Gerry Hawkridge.
    
    The other kit is the 'Corse' - available in 'I' and 'S' models.
    
    Although these are generally similar kits, with a Lancia Beta as
    the main donor, some of the differences follow :
    
    Both of these have bodies made using moulds taken from the original.
    The Transformer body panels have been supplied to a number of
    owners of the original cars.  The Corse panels are claimed to be
    made of thicker fibre mat and to have return lips for extra strength.
    
    Both cars have a spaceframe/cage type of construction with the body
    panels being non-stressed.  The Transformer is set out in an
    almost-identical manner to the real thing, whereas the Corse kit
    does not attempt to be an accurate copy (only in bodywork).
    
    The two models of the Corse kit use different suspension set-ups,
    with one of them using their own wishbone rear suspension, which
    utilises Ford Scorpio parts.  The other method is for Beta front
    struts to be used at the rear, with one coil removed and with
    custom-made uprights to take the Beta hib bearing in both cases.
    
    The front suspension of the Transformer is designed to the same
    geometry as the original, but using different (thicker) tube and
    bushing sizes.  A Triumph Herald rack is also used on this kit.
    
    The Corse has their own layout front suspension, which is still
    similar to the real thing, but has more compliance built in, and
    does have their own cast steering rack (as they claim there is no
    suitable part to be used for the geometry).
    
    
    When asking Corse what they thought of the Transformer, they said :
    
    	The original car was designed with 70's thinking, so when our kit
    	was designed, it updated certain areas with more modern knowledge.
    
    When asking Gerry of his comments on the Corse, his view was :
    
    	The kit has been developed is as close to the original as can be
    	reasonably managed.  Since it is so similar in so many ways, the
    	kits hold their value much better.  He did not feel that it would
    	be reasonable for a 'back yard worker' (meaning both himself and
    	the manufacturers of the Corse) to make a product that would be
    	any better than that turned out by a Rally-winning factory...
    
    Other points to consider in any comparison (I think) are :-
    
    	The Corse product is made in Yorkshire, the Transformer in Sussex.
    	This may well be important when sorting out any problems.
    
    	There is a large build manual for the Transformer, but there is
    	not yet a complete manual for either type of Corse kit.
    
    	The Corse was originally made/sold as the 'Litton Corse', but
    	apparently not many of these have been completed.  This would
    	not have been helped, a) by the lack of a build manual, or
    	b) since the original manufacturer quite the business.
    
    	I am led to believe that around 100 of the Transformer kits
    	have been built.  These have used Lancia Beta engines, with
    	and without Volumex superchargers, Lancia Thema Turbo engines,
    	Honda/Rover V6 and Ferrari V6 and V8 engines.
    	The Corse has been built with the Beta engine and with the
    	Honda/Rover V6 engine.  Neither have yet had a kit built
    	using the Alfa V6 engine.
    
    	The Corse is expected to be slightly cheaper to build than
    	the Transformer product, but prices for completed kits will
    	always be hard to quote on, as so much will depend on the builder.
    
    Another point, there is a Stratos Replica Owner's Club, for which I
    have sent off my membership, which has about 70 members.
    
    J.R.

From one of my books it shows only 500 original Stratos were made.  Is that
an accurate figure?  I guess just enough to get them homologated.

Dave

    The rules at the time were worded in some way which required that
    the manufacturer had to have 'the intention to build 500 cars' (or 400?)
    and there is some doubt as to whether Lancia ever made the full amount.
    
    What is definite is that they did not sell all of them.
    
    To make matters worse, there was an accident at the factory/warehouse
    where a large number of them were kept, plus many spares, and the roof
    fell in and destroyed this mass of Stratos cars + parts.  A Shame !
    
    J.R.

    
    The homologation figure was 400 over 2 years. As John said there is
    some doubt that Lancia ever reached that figure. Also there are
    reports of Lancia giving away Stratoses because they couldn't sell
    them!
    
    There were a number of special Stratos models including the Giro
    D'Italia Group 5 model turbo model which had a nasty habit of bursting
    into flames! The Stratos was descended from a show car (Bertone, I
    think, since they designed the production car) which looked not much
    like the final car at all. Somehow it was decided to build a rally car
    out of this wierd machine and eventually the Group 4 Stratos we all
    know and love came about.
    
    Not all Stratoses had the roof spoiler and boot spoiler.
    
    Mark

    
    Is Rut-the-nut any relation to Bernie-the-Bolt?
    
    

    
    Re .3 & .4 about the number of Stratos produced for the homologation.
    
    Lancia was aiming to build the required 500 (not 400) Stratos cars by
    March 1974 but could only achieved that figure in October of the same
    year.
    
    Some interesting facts about the Stratos designed by Bertone.
    
    The car appeared first at the 1970 Turin Motor Show as a mere styling
    exercise by Bertone.
    
    It had an exaggerated wedge shape body and was called Stratos after a
    Bertone employee commented that it looked like something from the
    stratosphere.
    
    The version with Ferrari Dino V6 engines and glass-fibre body won three
    successive World Rally Championships from 1974 to 76.
    

    
    Was it 500 over 2 years? So, presumably the later Group B was 400 in a
    year?
    
    Mark

    
    John,
    
    Is Gerry Hawkridge any relation to the Alex Hawkridge of the Toleman
    F1 team of old (now Benneton, of course)?
    
    There is someone (as you probably already know) actually rallying a 
    Stratos replica, but I've got a feeling it's a Corse. It seems fairly
    successful at the level it competes at (high level clubbies).
    
    Mark

    
    Graham Bates, GB Engineering, is a fairly good friend of my brothers
    and has just done some work on his Transformer Group 4 Stratos 
    replica. 
    
    My brother bought an old Lancia Beta and sent its engine to Ozelli 
    (excuse the spelling) in Oxford. Apparently, it should now have 170
    BHP.  
    
    BTW, the Stratos replica being used for rallying is based on a Transformer
    Group 4 kit (I can't remember whether it had a Lancia or Renault V6
    engine).
    
    Tony
    

    
    J.R.
    
    Have you sat in one yet? What I mean is, do you fit?

    
    I often think the prices quoted for kit builds relate more to what the
    manufacturer can build a kit for. If you can do major work (painting,
    trimming, mechanical overhauls) yourself, you may come close to the
    figures they quote, but 95% of kit builders have neither the patience
    or the inclination to do that kind of time consuming work and have to 
    sub-contract it out, hence boosting prices, and that's assuming that 
    they have the expertise, which would be a pretty rare combination.
    
    Some kits are built at horrendous expense. Some of the Mantulas you
    see at club meets are beautiful and prepared to a standard that no
    manufacturer could match in a production car, but it has cost dear in 
    time and the little gold coins!
    
    Mark

    
    I went to Windlesham fete on Saturday.
    
    There were more than 5 Lancia Stratos kits (I assume they were all
    kits, it's difficult to tell in the really good cases isn't it?) at the 
    fete. They all looked good, but the Alitalia rally replica was
    absolutely the biz, complete with Haldas, etc! I rather liked the two red 
    ones as well, but the standard overall was excellent.
    
    Looks like John's got a lot to compete with!
    
    Other cars included a couple of Porsches, a 1934 Rolls (in a horrible
    Wedgewood-like blue), Jag XK140(150?) roadster, a couple of Ferraris
    (including a tatty old racing sportscar - probably worth a bomb!) and 
    a VW Golf! (Still, in Windlesham, seeing two Porsches, he probably
    just assumed that that was the car park! :^)).
    
    Mark

        What if you wanted to get one in the states ?
    
    Mark
    

    John, in your original note you said that nobody had yet built an Alfa
    V6 powered Stratos replica, but something rang a bell and I eventually
    found this note, that I entered 3 years ago!
    
    He was very specific about it being an Alfa V6 as I recall (He seemed
    quite offended when I suggested it might be a Ford! :^)).
    
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Note 366.58                         kit cars                          58 of 1039
CURRNT::SAXBY "Set mode/headless chicken"            18 lines  10-JUL-1989 17:27
                    -< How's it going and a Stratos I saw. >-
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    Hello all,
    
    gone very quiet here. How are those of you building kits (a Cobra
    and a 7 as I remember) getting on.
    
    I was just idly thinking, as you do, and suddenly remembered something
    I encountered on the way to Le Mans. At the Tancarville bridge (for
    those of you who know) I pulled up alongside a really smart looking
    Lancia Stratos replica. The passenger had his window open so I asked
    him about the car. It was running a 3 litre Alfa V6 engine and looked
    absolutely perfect.
    
    He was obviously a bit sensitive about its high visibility (esp
    to the police) as he crossed the bridge very slowly and I soon lost
    him.
    
    Mark

    
    The car was British registered (and driven by a Brit). It was red and
    had the word Stratos on the rear wing in white.
    
    Maybe it still exists here somewhere, but outside of the club?
    
    Mark

    
    There was a lovely Stratos replica in full works colours hillclimbing
    at Gurston the weekend before last. I'll see if it appears in the list
    for July or August.
    
    Chris.

    
    If you're interesed in any Fiat 124 dials (excluding clock), my brother
    would be keen to sell some. If so, send me a mail - Tony Bunn @REO
    
    Cheers

    Hmm,
    
    A 200+ bhp V6 engined Lancia Stratos...
    
    I would have thought you would still get too much attention if it was
    invisible, let alone in a bright colour!
    
    

    Talking of visibility............
    
    Years ago when I was rallying, someone turned up for a Motoring News
    Road event in a works Stratos.
    
    The thing that sticks in my mind most, was looking into it with the
    door nearest me open, you could see through (yes, I mean through) the
    panelling of the closed door on the other side.
    
    Knowing my driver's tendency to always arrange to hit things on my side
    of the car, it stuck in my mind as being less than useless for crew
    protection, except possibly to keep the rain off.
    
    Bet it made it light though!
    
    JK

    Re: scrapped Fiat 132s.
    
    The scrapyard in Bearwood Avenue, Wokingham had some battered old Fiats
    when I was looking for a front indicator unit for my Scimitar SS1
    (I think they had a 132 as I remember scrabbling to undo the indicator
     which was set in its front bumper). I wouldn't trust the owner of the
    yard to give you a good price on secondhand parts, though. It's
    convenient if you live near Wokingham. Also, the cars can be piled 3 on
    top of each other.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Barry.

    Re magazines (under Kit Cars heading I believe)
    
    Just bought Kit Cars International, as it has a large write-up on 'Stratii'
    
    One page giving brief history of the real thing, including a very rough
    guess as to the value (6 figures), then quite a few pages where the
    write used the Bob Pilot/Gerry Hawkridge demonstrator and took part
    in a 'Classic Marathon', along with two other Transformer Stratos kits.
    Then another page describing the services of Bob Pilot, with a few
    more pages that follow on the actual Transformer kit (some of which is
    straight from the glossy leaflet available from Gerry).
    
    The 'readers car' in Which Kit magazine is a Ferrari-engined version,
    based in Guernsey.
    
    One day, I hope to have mine in print...   :-)
    
    J.R.
    
    PS What advert might show the phone number for the ex-Noble Lotus 23 ?
       (if it is in the August issue of KCI)

    I've had an update on the progress of my chassis, with respect the
    'special' engine mounts required to fit the Alfa V6 unit.
    
    Good news for me, the engine and gearbox fit easily.  The driveshaft
    connections are the same as the Beta (and the Thema) and fitting has
    been worked out so that I can use standard Beta driveshafts on both
    sides, with a small spacer being installed on one side.  This is a much
    cheaper alternative to having custom driveshafts made, or modifying
    standard driveshafts.  By all accounts, the Beta shafts are quite
    strong, so the power/torque output should not be too harmful on them.
    
    Now the remainder of the chassis work needs to be done by the
    fabricator (including powder-coating), then it returns to Transformer
    to have the central body tub fitted and other bodywork sorted out.
    Then it should be ready for delivery to me (in about one month, I'm told).
    
    I think I now have some 132 front suspension legs, so the only other
    large component I need to get is a steering column from a Fiat 124
    (of course, there will be endless amounts of small components to follow).
    
    J.R.

    Work is still progressing on the chassis of my kit, including having
    the gear linkage made up specifically for this fitment.  The engine
    has now been mounted in a *slightly* different position, but still
    uses standard driveshafts with spacers.  There is, apparently, plenty
    of room for the exhausts and ancillaries, but the alternator may have
    to be moved.  Still a couple/few weeks till delivery, but I'm not
    going to make Gerry rush things unnecessarily.  He is also making a
    change to the lower rear wishbones, to replace some rubber bushes
    with phosphor bronze items.
    
    
    
    A had a fairly lengthy chat with Hugh Carson, of CAE, who make and
    sell the 'Corse' kit.  There is a large write-up in recent Kit Car
    magazine on the build-up of one of his kits (I think it covers the
    build of his Ferrari-engined version), which will continue in the
    next issue or two.  Since I am keen on the kit being *close* to the
    original, I am better off building the Transformer version, but the
    Corse would be worth considering if someone were not bothered about
    having different suspension design, with detail parts that are not
    the same as the originals.  Some of the points that Hugh came up with
    do sound quite reasonable - as seen from 'the competition'.
    
    In the magazine article it said that CAE could procure Ferrari 308
    engine/transmission units if required.  When I asked Hugh about
    this he said that he has contacts with one or two 'breakers in the
    London area who sell Ferrari units.  The price ?  About 4 grand for
    a unit of unknoqn condition, give or take 500 pounds.  Gaskets and
    bearing shells cost around 500 quid, which is really the least you
    should do when getting one of these, isn't it ?  Sounded like a
    fair price to me, apparently many of these are from GT/4's which
    are not often worth the expense of fixing/rebuilding when crashed...
    
    For anyone building a Countach replica, the same person can get hold
    of Lamborghini engines for about 8 grand !  Of course, if that needs
    any work doing to it, you have to multiply the price of parts by 12 !
    
    
    Anyhow, Hugh is hoping to have his Ferrari-engined Corse at Castle
    Combe circuit for the 'Kit Car Action Day'.  I believe that a number
    of the Stratos Replica Club members are expected to turn up too, so
    there should be a few of these about (mostly Transformers, it seems).
    
    J.R.

    
    When is the Kit Car Action day?
    
    Mark

    Well, after however-many [not unexpected] delays, I am to receive
    delivery of my kit tonight.  Then I can get to burning the midnight oil !
    
    Mine is the first to be designated the 'HF3000', since it has the
    engine mounts/driveshaft adaptors and gear linkage for the Alfa V6.
    
    Gerry (Hawkridge Developments/Transformer Cars) is making the new
    parts available as a conversion kit for anyone who has the 'HF2000',
    which seems to be a popular idea (but that may not necessarily relate
    to any sales).  As a result, he is extremely keen (even 'excited')
    about my particular kit - being the first of its kind.  For my part,
    it means that I haven't been charged the development costs for the
    new engine fitment, as he hopes to sell either conversion kits, or
    the future sales of the chassis in this new configuration.
    
    His sales literature is being updated now (or quite soon) to refer
    to the model line-up as follows (price increase about now too) :-
    
    	HF2000		2-litre Beta engine/gearbox as donor
    			(or 2-litre Thema Turbo unit)
    	HF2400		2.4-litre Ferrari Dino engine/gearbox
    	HF2700		2.7 Honda/Rover V6 unit
    	HF3000		3.0 Alfa Romeo (164 donor)
    
    On any new enquiries, Gerry is recommending that the 3-litre option
    is the best engine fitment for this kit (above that of the Dino).
    
    It is possible to mix-and-match the old (GTV6) 2.5 litre engine
    onto the 164 transmission if anyone wishes to do so (there is some
    interest in this idea - or using the 155 V6 - as this makes the
    capacity almost the same as the original [Dino engine]).  From my
    view, why throw away the additional torque and power available
    from an extra half-litre engine capacity ?  I'd be more inclined to
    get a 3.3 or 3.5 litre conversion (from AutoDelta) and use that, if
    money were not the object that it always is :-)
    
    J.R.

    Hello,
    
    I'm a Yank irregular here - may I ask if anyone knows whether
    Transformer cars are still producing Stratos kits? I have a Beta
    Spider that I think is too rotted to save, but it might make a good
    donor for an HF2000.
    
    Thanks,
    Chuck Schneider