Conference terri::cars_uk

    You could tell him to try writing to What Car.  By coincidence I think
    there is a piece in the magazine this month about a chappie whose cam
    belt broke.  It was a Cirtoen BX, and had done something like 60,000
    miles.  It had been dealer serviced throughout its life, but the dealer
    hadn't changed the belt at 50,000 miles as is now recommended.  Citroen
    apparently said that the service history of the car was "vague"!  Have
    a read, then write in.
    
    Ian.

If the garage were following the "official" service procedure in not changing
the belt, as your note suggests they were, I don't really think you'll be able
to get them to pay for the damage.

Scott

Having just re-read the base note, it isn't clear to me if the belt has broken
or not.

My BMW had the belt changed at 60k (I think, although it could have been 50K).

That is the recommended interval.

A bill of #470 for a service is about normal for a BMW, especially if it is
a major service.

If the car has a full service history, and the belt snaps, I would have 
thought that there is a reasonable case for a discussion with BMW to ask them
to fix it for free. What might happen is that they will pay for the parts,
and you pay the labour ... this is what happened to me when they cocked 
something up.

    
    	Thanks for the replies so far guys,
    	The point I'm trying to make is that there is lots of evidence
    	that these belts snap on any make of car and more importantly at 
    	any time.
    	BMW would have us believe that their cars are better than any
    	others and since they are the "professionals" why didn't they 
    	change the belt on a major service. They must know that this is a 
    	major fail area.
    
    	As a side issue, why is 470 quid so normal for a major service on
    	a BMW?  It's just another car, as this breakdown has proven.
    	Or am I missing something here. 

The 470 quid service price is because genuine BMW parts are expensive.
Yes, it's just another car, but the genuine parts have a longer life,
so in the long run are better value. (I know this is what the adverts
say, but I have also found it to be true in practice ...).

re: cam-belt. I suppose we could all have them replaced every 1000 miles,
just to be on the safe side :-). Anyway, who is to say that the quality of
the material used for the cam-belt is the same for every car. Perhaps BMW
over-engineer, to save the unnecessary cost of frequent replacement. 

    
    	Surely the point is though Ian, that the car was serviced at 47k
    	miles and the next service would be due closer to 60k miles ie, 
    	right in the middle of the danger zone.
    
    	Most people who have experienced this problem have had a failure 
    	somewhere between 50k and 60k miles and I think that the trade 
    	know very well about the possibilities of cam belt breakage and
    	therefore preventative maintenance should have been done.
    
    	Bill.

    
    	I've just had a phone call to say that the engine is wrecked and
    	requires replacement.
    
    	BMW are paying the cost of the new engine and 50% of the labour
    	charge, Coombes of Guildford are paying the rest.
    	
    	Apparently, BMW say the belt does not require changing until 68k
    	miles. It was suggested to them that they might like to take this
    	opportunity to review their policy. They certainly did not argue
    	about bearing the cost of this disaster so they obviously know 
    	more than they will admit to.
    
    	I've also just found out that the breakdown truck driver, who was
    	from a BMW agent, had told the owner that he had rescued 3 other 
    	BMW's in the last month with exactly the same problem.
    	
    
    	So read into this what you will. But if you OWN a 318i or any other
    	car with an elastic band driving the cam shaft don't run it beyond
    	40k miles without changing it. THEY KNOW IT'S FATAL.
    
    	Bill.
    

    I might be wrong but dont drive belts,exhausts,tyres etc come under
    some sort of disclaimer as far as garages are concerned. Although they
    recommend these things be changed at certain intervals, Do they
    actually guarentee they will last that long???????
    
    Martin

    I guess people like BMW is covering their ass public-image wise -
    probably the best way to approach this sort of problem...
    
    Rob

>>    	So read into this what you will. But if you OWN a 318i or any other
>>    	car with an elastic band driving the cam shaft don't run it beyond
>>    	40k miles without changing it. THEY KNOW IT'S FATAL.
    
      I just had the belt changed yeaterday on my 2 litre Honda Accord (US
      model).  Honda recommends changing the belts with white lettering (those
      used on 84/85 models) every 60,000 miles.  They recommend changing the
      belts with red lettering (1986-present) every 90,000 miles.  Mine was
      changed at 79,000 miles just to be sure, and the old belt looked almost
      new.  

      You should follow the recommendations of the car manufacturer for
      timing belt change intervals.  Most manufacturers consider timing belt
      replacement to be a maintenance items so the owner would be responsible
      for its replacement.  Many garages will not replace it unless you tell
      them to and you pay for the new belt.  If the old belt breaks prior to
      the service interval, I would think that most of the manufacturers
      would pay for at least part if not all of the engine damage regardless
      of the service history of the car.

      Jim

    I've only suffered 2 broken engines in my life :
    
      - BMW, 4cyl, 1800cc, connecting rod due to oil pressure problem
      - Mercedes 190, 4cyl, 2000cc, 4 pistons due to water pump problem
    
    I have my own idea on image vs reality. No problem with French,
    British, Italian and other German cars.

    I have just finished helping my next door neighbour replace a good few
    bits of his Escort engine after his cambelt broke, after 100K miles.
    Admittedley my neighbour never had his car serviced and even had the
    nerve to tell me the oil hadn't been replaced all the time he'd owned
    it, but this seems like a reasonable length of service to expect as a
    minimum from a car. 
    
    On many cars it might well be considered a "maintenance" item as mention
    somewhere before, but have you looked under the bonnet of modern
    cars lately? A good many manufacturers place an engine mounting slap
    over or in the middle of the belt cover. Even more shoe horn the engine
    into position. My point here is that the belt might be a cheap item in
    itself but the time and cost involved in the work is often prohibitive.
    There is also a good chance that disturbing almost everything under the
    bonnet to do the job will lead to further problems...
    
    I'm an advecate of over engineering in this case and wish that belt
    makers and car manufacturers would design/build a far longer lasting
    item. The same goes for clutch and rubber gaiter parts.
    
    Ian
    
    

    
    What's wrong with chains? 
    
    Mark
    

    
    	Nothing at all Mark, but in the never ending search for more BHP
   	and quieter engines, the manufacturers in their infinite wisdom
    	have decided to fit elastic bands leaving us poor sods to pick
    	up the pieces-quite literally.
    
    	I remember years ago that Cosworth were one of the few engine
    	builders to use belts on their racing engines for obvious reasons.
    	But, it took all of 2 minutes to change it because there were no
    	covers to worry about and , I presume, that any owner in his right
    	mind changed it regularly.
    
    	Any how, I'm sure I've read somewhere that Jaguar recommend
   	changing theirs at 60k miles and they are double duplex
    	chains. Believe me you do not want to wreck a Jag head.
    
    	Bill

	Chains stretch, these belts don't. Incidentally I don't think
	that belts usually break. It's normally a case of the teeth
	stripping off them, which is of course just as bad.

	Like most things in an engine the load on these belts varies
	broadly with the square of the speed (inertia to be overcome etc.)
	and therefore the anticipated life will also vary in some similar
	way. Double the speed, a quarter of the life.

	-John

>>	Chains stretch, these belts don't. Incidentally I don't think
>>	that belts usually break. It's normally a case of the teeth
>>	stripping off them, which is of course just as bad.

      Belts strip teeth and break.  There was a Mustang in the shop at the
      same time as my Hondas.  The Mustang stripped off about 10 teeth.  I
      have a 1.7 litre Renault R11 in my driveway now where the belt broke.
      fortunately, I have a cam chain on my 1.4 litre Renault.

      Jim

    
    	Yes,
    	Chains stretch all right, but are supposed to be re-tensioned at a
    	service.
    	Belts do not stretch they just break or strip teeth and then break.
    	Which is why Manufacturers should be pressurised into reviewing the
    	whole question of maintenance on them.
    	I just wonder how many people, that do not have access to a
    	notes conference like this, have suffered the same disaster with
    	their modern tin box and had to cough for the lot.
    	One thing is for sure, all the breakdown trucks that we see running
    	up and down our beloved motorways with fairly new cars on their
    	backs, do not have a burst water pipe, bad plugs or broken fan
    	belts.
    
    	I wonder what it must be!!! 

    
    Presumably the stretching in chains is due to wear within the links?
    
    I'd imagine it'd take a lot to stretch a Duplex chain, certainly more
    than to strip a couple of teeth of a rubber belt! 
    
    Mark

    
    You've got the layout right, but I don't know if Duplex is a trade name
    or not.
    
    Mark

    
    	the name "duplex" is given to a dual type chain ie two running
    	in parallel. Simplex being the single type.
    	
    	Bill

    
    	Quite right Ian,
    
    	And Durex is doubly tough but they break as well.
    
    	Or is it teeth that break them?
    
    	Bill.

    
        Its usually due to overstretching with me Bill, but thats another
        story/note  8-)
    
        ..Craig 

Does anyone know if I need to retension the timing chain on my Renault 1.4
litre?  The car has gone 108,000 miles with nothing done to the chain.  Perhaps
I should plan to replace the chain in the future.  This engine is not an over
head cam, but rather an old fashion pushrod engine. 

Jim

I'd say that it probably should be changed.

If you put a timing light on the car, does the timing "jump" or is it rock solid
in one spot.  If its jumping at all, that probably is a result of a streched
timing chain.

I just did one (both gears, too) on my Midget, and the car is completely
different now.  Its actually fun to drive 8^)!

-Al

    Re: .30
    
    I would suspect that if you have fairly regularly changed the engine
    oil that the timing chain on your engine will not require replacement.
    Chains inside engines work in near ideal conditions and typically will
    outlast the rest of the engine. Any 'jumping' of the ignition timing
    will probably be caused by 'slack' in other components (i.e. the
    distributor auto-advance mechanism, the skew gear that drives the
    distributor etc), or a worn tensioner (if it has one).
    
    In a past life I used to strip/repair/rebuild car and bike engines and
    I cannot recall ever replacing a timing chain due to wear of either the
    chain or the drive cogs.
    
    As a guide to the longevity of chains in engines - SAAB (on the 99 and
    900 series) actually use a Triplex chain to transfer drive from the
    clutch output shaft to the gearbox and I have never heard of one being
    replaced (no doubt someone will say that they have!!!), and some of
    these engines develop 175 BHP.
    
    - John.

RE: Renault 1.4 with timing chain

I have performed meticulous maintenance on the car.  Oil and filter have been 
changed every 3000 miles.  Cylinder head bolts have been retorqued and valves
adjusted every other oil change.  I have no way of checking the timing since
it is not adjustable.  The computer determines my advance curve.  The timing 
chain does not appear to make any unusual noise.

Jim

RE:  Timing chain outlasting other engine components.


I've seen plenty of engines where the timing chain was streched way out of spec
and replacing it (and only it) made the engine run almost as new.


As I think I mentioned, I just changed the one in my Midget, and it drives like
a completely different car!  It was, however, VERY noisy, and I could see my
timing waver because of the prehistoric ignition system.

-Al