Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    The Renault 5 GT Turbo's fog lights would seem to work as you described
    them.
    
    Mark

    This ones for you Derek...
    
    The bl**dy stupid thing about BMW lights is that the dim dip when using
    sidelights lights up the fog - intead of allowing you to use the front
    fog lamps properly.  I think I'll put in a relay to do the job
    properly.
    
    Rob

    
    This topic has just made me very happy...I have been waiting to make my
    comments about new car headlights/fog lights....
    
    Just recently I have found night driving a pain in ****. People are 
    driving around in built up areas and there's no need for it..
    
    1. Headlights on new cars are set too high
    2. People only have bottom front fog lights for the pose !!
    3. The power of the bulbs are far too high
    4. I haven't had to carry headache tablets before, but now do 
    
    
    I'd like other people's opinions because I think its very dangerous
    
    craig..
    
    
    
    

    For the brief period that I had my leased BX, I habitually used the
    fogs with the heads during darkness. This was not out of bloody
    mindedness, or ignorance. (I am ignorant, but it was not the reason:-)
    
    I did it because the headlamps, whilst containing bright bulbs, had no
    reflector worth the name - certainly not worth the money - and were
    thus incapable of emitting any shape of beam. The fogs, whilst pathetic
    as foglamps, served as adequate dipped beams, from the driver's point
    of view, and I thus judged that safety was better served by me being
    able to see something, at the cost of the element of dazzle caused by
    the fogs.
    
    I switched them off in street lit areas - I only needed marker lights
    then, and the heads did a (barely) adequate job of that.
    
    I did contemplate removing Citroen's lights, and installing some of my
    own, but the cost of modifying the DECwreck to an acceptable standard
    of minor design (I had no probs with the chassis or driveline) exceeded
    anything reasonable.
    
    Steve

    I must say that I've never considered front fogs as being dazzling,
    as their function is to illuminate low and wide. I think in poor light
    conditions (ie early in the morning), when you do not need headlamps to
    see with but rather to be seen, IMO its a good idea to have sidelights
    and front fogs in preference to dipped beam.
    
    - Roy

    
    
    Whilst driving down dark country roads, I get blinded by oncoming
    drivers   1. because their dipped beamed lights seem to dazzle
              2. or because having 2 extra fog lights
    
    OK...In fog they wouldn't be so bad..but why can most people drive
    around with no added lights and others can't...?
    
    craig
    
    
    

    Does anyone know of any laws which cover the use of front fog lights? 
    There seem to be rules for where they should be fitted, as well as
    rules for the use of rear fog lights, but none that say when you must
    or must not use front fog lights.  The only thing that seems to apply
    is the general rule of not dazzling or discomforting other road users.
    
    Mat.
    *:o)
    

>    Does anyone know of any laws which cover the use of front fog lights? 
    
    I think you're only allowed to use fog lights in fog, heavy spray or
    falling snow.  Front fog lights must be the same colour as the
    headlights.  Toyota and Renault have assisted drivers in breaking this
    law in the past, are their new cars legal yet?

>    falling snow.  Front fog lights must be the same colour as the
>    headlights.  Toyota and Renault have assisted drivers in breaking this

I personally think the use of white headlights and yellow fogs is a good idea.
You then get the best of both worlds.

>I personally think the use of white headlights and yellow fogs is a good idea.
>You then get the best of both worlds.
    
    I suspect it's illegal as you may confuse an oncoming driver who might
    think there are two cars due to the multi-coloured lights.  That's the
    only explanation I can offer for the law. 

    
     All boy racers with R5 turbo's in my area, run with dipped headlights
    and yellow spots on , this is known as boy racer mode.
    
                           Kevin R.
    P.S. I think some have it hardwired like Volvo's with side lights.

    
    I'm obviously not a boy racer, 'coz in 3 years I only ran with my 
    front fog lights on once (In a real Belgian Pea-Souper!). I did used to
    find them useful for flashing people without dazzling them though.
    
    Mark

    Unless the regulations have changed,it is an offence to use any lights 
    mounted less than 24" from the road to centre of light in any
    conditions other than fog or falling snow.
    
    John
    

    The difficulty is in defining fog. There are those who believe that fog
    is anything vaguely misty, and those who believe it isn't really fog
    unless you cant see the steering wheel from the driver's seat.
    
    However, in totally clear conditions it is fact that lamps whose
    centres are below 24", or whatever that is in foreign, may not be used.
    
    Steve

    
    I seem to recall a definition of "impaired visibility" involving 100
    yards of visibility.
    
    Doesn't seem too vague to me...
    
    /. Ian .\

    The highway code says that visibility must be 'seriously reduced',
    before using fog lamps (front or rear). It says 'generally, reduced to
    less than 100 meters'. The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations just say
    'seriously reduced'.
    
    Ian.

    
    And when does visibility become impaired at 100 yards? I just love
    bureaucratic bumbling. They should be specific (E.g. when a number
    plate of the car in front cannot be read at X yards).
    
    Mark

    
    Coloured lights...    
    
    I think the R19 ad on the telly shows the car with white headlights
    and yellow fogs?

    
    Use of fog lights...

        Fog lights do annoy and dazzle me during ordinary night driving.
    If roads were flat they probably wouldn't be so bad - but for every
    slight incline they point up into the air away from the road..... 
    (this means you - BMW drivers everywhere)

    Has anyone found a standard fit fog light that was any good at all
    on clear nights? I've tried them on various cars and have thought
    them useless!    

    
    

    RE .18
    
>    Has anyone found a standard fit fog light that was any good at all
>    on clear nights? I've tried them on various cars and have thought
>    them useless!    
    
    They're not supposed to be good on clear nights. They are supposed to
    have a low shardly defined beam, that illuminates the road surface close
    to the car. This is useful only when visibility is reduced to the point
    that you have to go slowly - the beam is not intended to reach far
    enough to be useful at speed. The low position of the lamps does make
    them reflect off wet road surfaces, dazzling oncoming drivers.
    
    The biggest problem with factory fog lights is that they generally only
    work when the dipped lights are on. This is the wrong way round ! In
    fog you want to use the fog lights without headlights (because the
    headlights reflect too much glare). The law should be changed to
    require Front foglights to operate only when the sidelights are on and
    the headlamps off (including dim-dip beams off). This would prevent
    people driving around with fog lights on when not required. (You'd
    probably find that manufacturers stopped fitting them as standard).
    
    The available lighting positions would be
    a) OFF
    b) Sidelights & Dim Dips (personally I would get rid of Dim Dips
    	entirely)
    c) Sidelights & Dipped
    d) Sidelights & Main
    e) Sidelights & Fogs (Only to be used at speeds less than 25mph ?)
    
    Also it should be required that all lights (other than sidelights) go
    OFF when the ignition key is removed, and do NOT go on again until the
    driver operates the switch again. This would prevent people forgetting
    to turn off Rear fog lights.
    
    Andrew

when I had a car without front fog lights I always wished I had front fogs...

now i've a car with front fogs I've only ever found them useful on one occasion
in 13 months- which was at night, country lanes and Very thick fog - they 
allowed me to see the lane markings and the hedges at the side of the roads

the other times i've tried to use them during fog they didn't help visibility
in the least.

perhaps we don't get fog thick enough often enough in the uk for front
fogs to help visibility - much like four-wheel drive vehicles - not really
justifyable considering the infrequency of bad weather conditions (snow/ice)
in the uk 

my front fogs are pretty handy when manouvering around tight spots in the dark
eg. narrow drives etc

all-in-all I suppose they could be likened to go-faster stripes: there for show
(and major irritation of most road users when unnecessarily switched on)

...art

    I find the front fogs are useful in non-foggy weather... normally when
    driving along motorways / dual carriageways that aren't lit, on a right
    handed bend..... They show the off side curb , and prevent you driving
    into the ditch - especially when overtaking lorries who are throwing
    out lots of muck  and spray.
    
    Mine (on the Calibra) do come on just with sidelights. I use them also
    instead of head lights when I feel the light is dim enough that I want
    to  be seen by other drivers, but it is not dim enough for me to need
    lights to drive with.
    
    Cheers, Chris

I think my front fog lights are pretty, and better for being yellow.

How come Renault can break the law? if this is the case.

The arrangement for fog lights is complex. If the fog lights are switched on
when on side lights, then the front light is linked to the rear, and they
both come on, when side lights are turned on.

If the fog lights are switched on when on main beam, then only the rear one
comes on, when the headlights are turned on again. I'm not sure if moving
from sidelights to main beam cancels the linkage between front and rear.

Must be some pretty complex electronics in there!

Mark.

>I think my front fog lights are pretty, and better for being yellow.
>
>How come Renault can break the law? if this is the case.
    
    May be a subtle difference, but I suspect that the law is only broken
    when they are in use.  So Renault may not be breaking the law.  People
    have been nicked for this, probably when they can't be done for
    something else and have annoyed the policeman.

    
    Talking of illegal things being sold, isn't it illegal to use those
    radar detector things? I seem to see more and more being advertised all
    the time and I think encouraging people to buy something which has the
    sole purpose of allowing you to break the law and get away with it is
    a lot worse than having the (seemingly sensible) option of white or
    yellow lights in fog!.
    
    Mark

    My comments on a few back (catch up mode)
    
>>>                    <<< Note 1365.6 by KERNEL::NICHOLLSC >>>
    
>>    OK...In fog they wouldn't be so bad..but why can most people drive
>>    around with no added lights and others can't...?
    
    Obviously because their default lights are inefectual. The number of
    times I've been driving at night, dipped my lights because I've come
    up behind someone and thought "wish he/she'd use main beam..." then
    seen them DIP from what is appaling to what is non-existant. 
    
    Worst thing is they're driving at speed with a light I'd be hard
    pressed to read a book under the bedclothes with!
    
    
    
>>                      <<< Note 1365.19 by PRFECT::PALKA >>>
    
>>    b) Sidelights & Dim Dips (personally I would get rid of Dim Dips
>>    	entirely)
    
    Don't agree. It's meant to force the idiots who only drive on parking
    lights (I know it's illegal, but you try telling them!) to show a
    minimal amount of light. Also I find it useful on days when a light is
    necessary (dull, grey days) but when dip beam is over-kill.
    
    Richard

    I must admit to sometimes driving with my front fogs on...
    THis is partly because I myself don't seem to get dazzled by others'
    fogs only cars with badly adjusted headlights (or with 5 people on
    the back seat!)
    
    My feeling is that most people drive FAR too fast at night, when
    without the headlights visibility is NIL.....  So If I were to drive
    along a fast A-road with only dipped headlights then the safe speed
    would be about 30-40 MPH. But obviously travelling at this speed would
    cause aggravation behind me and would be dangerous. So I prefer to have
    my fogs on, have that bit more visibility and tend towards that age old
    adage of "being able to stop in the distance I see to be clear"
    
    Huw
    PS. I only use my rear fogs in REAL fog...!

	I'm not too concerned with the exact letter of the law.  I dislike 
	being dazzled (= my visibility being reduced) or mislead (is this car
	braking?).  I often wonder whether drivers know that they've got 
	particular sets of lights on, maybe the appropriate light on their dash
	isn't very noticable.  I've seen front fogs switched on for no 
	apparent reason that didn't bother me, but I've seen others that were
	blinding as hell.  Mostly the rear fogs blind; in light spray they're
	a real menace.

	Anyhow, my rules are:

	(1) Don't bother with sidelights, they're too dim for anything except
	parking.

	(2) Put dipped lights on whenever you wish to see or be seen.  It 
	doesn't harm anyone if they're on when they don't need to be.

	(3) Use main beams outside of street lighting whenever I can without
	blinding someone.  Mine are very bright and useful.

	(4) Put fog lights on when it's foggy (rather than misty).

	Dave

    re .28
    
    
>    Don't agree. It's meant to force the idiots who only drive on parking
>    lights (I know it's illegal, but you try telling them!) to show a
>    minimal amount of light. Also I find it useful on days when a light is
>    necessary (dull, grey days) but when dip beam is over-kill.
    
    I didn't intend to mean that it would be possible to drive with just
    sidelights ! I dont think there is any reason to drive with dim-dips,
    rather than normal dipped lights. If there is sufficient natural light
    to see by then dim-dipped lights are too dim to show up much anyway, so
    you should use normal dipped lights. I suspect that the life time of
    Halogen bulbs may be LESS when used at the lower power, as the bulb
    envelope does not heat up sufficiently to recover the evaporated
    tungsten.
    
    Extra-bright sidelights that are always on when the car is running
    would be more useful than dim-dip. They would allow a car to be seen,
    without providing enough light that people think they can drive with
    them in the dark. It also allows cars with pop-up headlights to have
    some lights without raising the headlights.
    
    Andrew

    
    Ah, pop-up headlights, now there's a stupid idea. Sure they allow a car
    to look good, but how often have I seen cars with only 1 up (due to the
    motors,etc packing up or neither ('coz it don't look so good').
    
    I suppose in their favour, they do keep the lenses clean (unless you
    decide to use them!).
    
    Mark

    
    
    Dave,
    
         I tend to agree with you.
    
         Wouldn't it be a good idea to link the front fogs with rear fog
    light switch.?
    
         Then they would only be used in the correct manner !!
    
         I have 4 spots on my car and only use them when driving down 
    dark country lanes. Its like driving in the daylight when they are
    switched on !! And thats only with 55 watts bulbs in them.
    
         craig
    
    

    re .34
    
    No, Extra-bright sidelights are not the same as dim-dip headlights. The
    light is emitted in all directions, rather than just forward and down.
    This means that the sidelights can be seen from more directions, not
    just from the front. Also you wont get reflections from wet roads or
    a bright flash as a car reaches the top of a hill (when the viewer is
    below the cutoff point of the headlamp beam).
    
    Andrew

    This is a slight rathole, but I am getting more and more in favour of
    Volvo lights, as they force the glimmerers in the gloom to carry some
    lights when visibility is impaired. Trouble is that some people seem to
    think that carrying lights drains the battery.
    
    Steve

It is illegal to drive on parking/side lights.

Dipped headlight must be used in reduced visibility (this means everything but 
a bright sunny day)

Fog lamps should only be used in seriously reduced visiblity, and only in fog 
(this means visibility of less than 100m)

	Rain is not fog.
	Mist is not fog.
	Spray is not fog.
	Posing is not fog.

I wish the police would prosecute more people for not obeying these laws.


BTW. I don't think it is actually illegal to have yellow front fogs.

    
    Daylight running lights are dangerous, they lead people to believe that
    they can be seen by all and sundry and therefore they drive in the
    gloom with no lights on. People who use their headlights in the daytime
    should be charged more on their insurance as it obviously leads them to 
    believe they are safer on the road.
    
    Mark (My, what a weak argument! :^) ).

    
    You'll have to get brighter lights if you want them to see you from
    that far behind! :^)
    
    Mark (What's 38? The meaning of life, the universe and everything
    except 4 things?)

    Re .38
    
    So mist is not fog.
    
    OK, I accept that.
    
    Now define the difference.
    
    Steve

    
>    Now define the difference.
    
fog/lo-cloud	- you can't see more than 3-4 cat's-eyes ahead (assuming the 
		  road has cat's-eyes !)

mist        	- you can see quite well - at least everything except other 
		  cars with no lights :-)

:-)

>BTW. I don't think it is actually illegal to have yellow front fogs.
    
    True, but the combination of yellow foglights and white headlights is. 
    Where would we find the exact wording of the law?  It's not the sort of
    detail to be found in the highway code.
    
    I remember this discussion, probably in this notesfile from
    around a year ago.
    
    It was that a guy with a Supra was fined by a magistrate's court.  

    Hi
    
    Well I have a Supra "H" Reg so the last note concerned me somewhat.
    
    So I have just put the phone down having spoken to Basingstoke police
    Traffic Dept'.
    
    They thought I was nuts !!
    
    Certainly not illegal Sir.  If they are designated fog lamps i.e. Only
    work in conjunction with headlamps.  Are only used in FOG, HEAVY RAIN, 
    SNOW (insert common sense).  He refuses to accept that a Supra Driver
    will have been charged with "illegal lamps"  more likely illegal use of
    said lamps.
    
    He did say that Yellow driving lamps are not a good idea.  But are not
    illegal, provided they are used in conjunction with full/main beam.
    
    rulke of thumb.  Fog lamps should be low as in almost ground level. 
    (mine are)
    
    Driving lamps are Bumper height.
    
    Bruce

My Renault 19 has front and rear fog lights as standard. No problems with
the front ones - you can still use them without the headlights. The problem
is, the only way to keep the rear red lights on is to drive with dipped beam, 
both sidelights and mainbeam turn OFF the rear fog lamps!!! 

So to keep legal at the rear, I have to have dipped beam at the front. Then the 
fogs are next to useless because of the glare from the headlamps.

Backwards Durch Technic...:-(

Jc

	Just out of interest, I asked my dealer to rewire my additional
	driving lamps so they could be used with sidelights (to flash
	people who insist on driving with foglights on when it isn't
	foggy) and was told that they wouldn't do it, as it was illegal
	to use them without the full beam headlights on. They also told
	me it was illegal to use forward or rear foglights without dipped
	beam headlights...

	JJ.

>    SNOW (insert common sense).  He refuses to accept that a Supra Driver
>    will have been charged with "illegal lamps"  more likely illegal use of
>    said lamps.
    
    You would certainly expect a policeman to be correct, though I
    suspect the law is to do with type approval, this specifies all sorts of
    details about cars.  People have been caught out with personal imports
    not being type approved in the early days.  Would a policeman know all
    the type approval details?
    
    This is hardly a "hanging" offence, as I stated before it was probably
    used as the only to do someone for annoying behaviour.
    
    Unfortunately I don't have the newspaper article where I read of said law
    and of course reporters have been know to report incorrectly....
    
    Now I guess I'll have to search this notesfile for this discussion from
    way back.  

    From the Highway Code, Fifth impression with minor correction 1989.
    
    Page 30
    
    LAMPS
    119  You must:
    
    a  make sure that all your lamps are clean, that they work
    and that your headlamps are properly adjusted - badly
    adjusted headlamps can dazzle road users and lead to
    accidents;
    
    b  switch on your lamps at lighting-up time;
    
    c  use headlamps at night on all roads where there is no
    street lighting, on roads where the street lamps are more
    than 185 metres (200 yards) apart and on roads where
    the street lamps are not alight;
    
    d  use your headlamps or front fog lamps at any time
    when visibility is _seriously_ reduced, that is, generally,
    reduced to a distance of less than 100 metres.
    
    REAR FOG LAMPS
    120  You must not use your rear fog lamps unless
    visibility is _seriously_ reduced, that is, generally, reduced
    to a distance of less than 100 metres. Do not use them
    simply because it is dark or raining or misty.
    
    
    Now (d) implies that you can use EITHER headlamps OR foglamps when
    visibility is reduced, but at the back of the code it states that
    
    RVLR No 22
    
    - use your headlamps when visibility is seriously reduced, eg. 
    by thick fog.
    
    No mention of foglamps only.
    
    	No wonder we are all confused!!!!!!
    
    mb

    
    
    I'm positive that I've read that yellow front fog lights are not
    illegal (specifically, this was in connection with a Supra).
    
    Bill
    

>    I'm positive that I've read that yellow front fog lights are not
>    illegal (specifically, this was in connection with a Supra).
    
    This would imply there has been an issue over them, any clues to what
    it was?

    Is there a link between the fact that the French LEGALLY REQUIRE yellow
    headlamps/fog lampd/driving lamps etc...... Renaults are French cars
    and the two that I've had although having white headlamps (bulb change)
    had yellow fog lamps at front.... I guess there was greater economic
    sense in keeping to one flavour fog lamp as the that meant one less
    part to source up for production......whereas the economics of scale
    meant that it was do-able for the headlamps.....
    
    ...just a thought....

    Re last
    
    Thats a good point, but doesn't explain why the supra has yellow fogs.
    Also I would think that manufacturers would do their homework on
    a country's regulations and bring in-line any minor mods to their cars
    before exporting to said country.
    
    - Roy

	Actually, since any car has to be type-approved before it can be
	sold in the UK, the conclusion must be that yellow fog lamps are
	legal, but only when used *with* white dipped beam headlamps.

	JJ.

    Re Daylight lights on:
    
    It think this should not be done.
    - Research in Sweden has prooved there is no less accidents and
      casualties.
    - Cyclists are less easy to be seen, so obviously more cyclists will be 
      victim of daylight lamps on.
    
    Hans

    Re .57
    
    This proves that daylight headlights must be mandatory. We can thus at
    a stroke rid the highways of all these pesky cyclists.
    
    Steve ;-}

    If a lot of "those pesky cyclists" took cars instead they would just
    slow you down - don't knock them (either metaphoracly or not).
    
    :-)  - Glad to not be part of the traffic jam.
    
    Rob

    
    
      I'm just glad to be warm and dry...
    
      craig
    
      
    
      

    Re: .55(?I think)
    
    Yellow headlights are *not* mandatory in France.
    
    They were but they aren't any more (EEC and all that).
    
    RE: Another one....
    
    I recall that when I auxiliaried (!) my rally car, it would not pass
    scrutineering for Road Rallying unless the spots/driving lamps were
    wired only to come on through main beam. (At least that's the way one
    switch worked (-;) Therefore that must have been a requirement for a
    long time.
    
    It is legal to use low mounted foglights in conditions of fog and
    falling snow *without* headlights (dip or main). It has to be otherwise
    the low mounting to reduce light feedback from the moisture would be a
    waste of time.
    
    None of this has much to do with Manufacturers Fitted front fog lights
    being useless (except for Renault 5 Turbos someone claimed)....... (-:

    I tired out my Calibra's foglights this week (in clear conditions),
    and they seem to give a pretty good spread of light for a short
    distance in front of the car. Next time it's foggy (assuming I've still
    got the car!) I'll try them out and see if they work well in fog.
    
    BTW, they are white and, I think, mounted at the same level as the
    headlamps.
    
    Mark

    Okay,
    	
    	I belive the Law states that You can have white OR Yellow Lights
    Provided that you dispaly some form of white light to the front. ie
    if your sideligts are seperate units from the main light then the main
    beam/full beam may be yellow. Therefore those cars that dont have two
    light units - but have sidelights & main/full beam in the same unit
    (most new cars) most be white. So hence the Frot Fogs can be Yellow.
    Also I think that some manufacturs believe that a Yellow light wont be
    reflected quite as much as a white light in fog.
    
    Follow me ????
    
    God I have had to read all 62 notes to just say that..........
    
    My final bit.. In my Panda I dont have the luxury of Front Fogs, come
    to that point I only have one rear Fog.. BUT I dont think they are any
    good at all. The Pool Car (Renault 21) has front fogs, - I have had to
    use them - USELESS.. When I confront Fog I just slow down & pay
    attention, to the kerbs. Plus anything else that I can see.. I ant had
    any problems....
    
    Cheers,
    	Stu.

I was in front of a car last night, with headlamps and yellow fog lamps
ablaze (note it wasn't foggy!).  I dunno whether he had a heavy load in the
boot, or his lights were badly adjusted, but these fog lamps were severely
dazzling me in my mirror.

So I "flashed" my rear fogs at him, to try and give him the message...

... his response was to put his main beam on, making things worse!!!

Fortunately for me, he turned off the road soon after.

Made me really angry so I thought I'd shout a bit about it in here...

Scott

PS he/his may be she/her, I couldn't see...