Conference terri::cars_uk

according to local standards and customs, plus the scource of the oil that
it is refined from.

While on holiday in Denmark a couple of summers ago, I was astounded to
see 92 octane lead free petrol; even two star petrol in the UK was
94 octane.....(I think)

re the smelly cat; I presume the petrol companies will change to low
sulphur oil when enough people have complained, as they did in the U.S.

In the meantime, of course, you're stuck with it.

Peter.

Try Spain!  First time we drove there the AA recommended that the ignition be
retarded as it was not uncommon for petrol in rural areas to be around 85
octane!  Don't know if it's changed recently...

Brian

(PS  In the US, Regular = 87 octane, Super = 89, Premium = 92 or 93.  You can't
buy anything higher on the open market!)

>(PS  In the US, Regular = 87 octane, Super = 89, Premium = 92 or 93.  You can't
>buy anything higher on the open market!)

I believe Sunoco sells 94 octane at most of it's outlets.

 Does anyone know what the ratings are of our fuel, I heard recently that 4star
had been downgraded recently, is this true. If so I might try to get an unleaded
head, so I can use super unleaded.


		 Alan
		~~~~~~

.762> I believe Sunoco sells 94 octane at most of it's outlets.

Some of them elsewhere, perhaps?  The ones around here are all 93 octane.
And Sunoco is the most expensive petrol around ($1.57 for premium versus
Shell at $1.37, for example).  Sheesh, that's expensive :^)

    I've seen 94 at many Sunoco stations around Littleton/Groton. They
    imply it will give more power. These stations sell many different
    grades. I think they usually have 5 grades on most pumps, and 94 octane
    on a separate pump. You're right about it being an expensive brand.
    Most other stations sell 87, 89 and either 92 or 93. I would like to
    use 91 (I notice some power loss with 89), but noone sells that !
    
    I've also seen 85 octane around New Mexico. In fact a lot of stations
    dont have anything higher than 85 around there !
    
    US octane ratings are measured using the (R+M)/2 method. I think this
    gives a different result to the UK octane. (US 93 equals UK 95 ?).
    
    Andrew

Suggestion to the mod that the last replies about octane rating be moved to a
separate toipic to avoind filling the R5 topic up with this discussion?

Brian

I'm not au fait with the different methods of measuring octanes between the UK
and US.  Just says in my handbook that I should use minimum 91 octane in the
Alfa!

    the wish in 1355.7 has been granted, and many thanks to Trevor Warwick
    for converting the conference to accept set note x /note_id=y. (Jeff
    please note :-) )
    
    Richard

    Re .1
    
    FWIW:These days you can get unleaded in 92, 95 and 98 octane in Denmark.
    
    Outlaw

 Surely, someone knows whether UK 4* is higher or lower octane than 
Super-unleaded. I know that it used to be the same, but have heard a rumour 
that 4* has been decreased in octane. Anyone ??



		 Alan
		~~~~~~

P.S. Strangely enough, in Hillingdon the cheapest place to get petrol is the
Q8 garage !!!!

to my knowledge anyway.

The only thing that has changed in 4* over the last few years is the
progressive reduction in lead; it went down to 0.15 whatevers about
two years or so ago.

Is 4* 97 or 98 octane? I think that Super unleaded may be a slightly
higher octane rating than 4* - look at the pump next time; the
octane rating is usually on it somewhere.

I would, but I drive a diesel, and since I moved I only fill up once every
four weeks or so....

Peter.

    
    4 star is 97 and super unleaded is 98 octane.
    
    This makes a noticeable, but not great, difference to the running of
    the Marcos (in favour of Super Unleaded).
    
    Mark

    
    
    Yeash - But in the good old days.... 
    
    4* was 99 octane
    5* was 101 octane
    

	You can still buy 100 octane fuel, but it costs rather a lot.

	Aircraft use it.  It's denoted 100LL (Low Lead).

	Not sure if it's *legal* for road use though ... :-)

	Yes, the Marlin goes slightly better on super-unleaded...

	Dave

    If you convert an engine to run on lower octane fuel , do you advance
    the ignition or retard it? Oh , and why  ?

	RE: .16

	Retard it - 'cos the mixture tends to burn faster.
	
	- John.

    Ive just started running in a 1700 x-flow ford engine with twin 40s,
    high lift cam , big valves etc. This engine is modified to run on
    unleaded and the timing is set 4 degrees more ADVANCED than standard.
    
    I find that this engine very low on power at low RPM but above 3500 RPM
    it feels like there are twin turbos cutting in. Has anyone experience
    of this type of engine? Why should the timing be more advanced using
    unleaded?

 The timing will be more advanced due to the cam, not really sure exactly why,
but my 1300 X-Flow with high lift cam wouldn't run with less than 20 degrees
advance !!!! so 10 degrees or so seems about right. 


The nothing down low, and lots up the top end is also due to the cam, that is 
the trade off that is made, you either get lots of power at the top or lots of 
torque at the bottom, but not both.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    
    Ive got a 4 into 1 exhaust with long primary pipes , which is also 
    more efficient at high RPM.
    
    Does anyone know the valve layout , cylinder head bolt tightening
    sequence and torques for the ford x-flow?

    Try calling Dick Henneman at home (he left the company a while back)
    Do't know his number, but he lives on Savernake Road (I think). He's
    just finished rebuilding a X-Flow......

 If you still want it, I can send you a photocopy of the page in the workshop 
manual I used when rebuilding my brothers x-flow.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

 DTN : 830-4662

    Yes, that would be useful.
    
    Chris Bond   Leatherhead (eso)

 I have the pages, with the valve layout marked, shall I just send it to
Chris Bond @ ESO , or is more needed to be able to find you ?

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

re. increasing octane rating (can't remember if it was this note)

I heard from someone who put moth balls (aka napthlene) in the tank to
up the octrane rating in his car; reckoned that napthalene has an
octane rating of 300!

He thought it increased performance of the car (RS Turbo)

wonder what it does to the engine if it does boost octane rating?!

anyone else heard of similar (dodgy) tweeks?


...art

Heard on the radio that unleaded petrol is just as bad as leaded.

I was aware that _super_unleaded_ contained benzene, which is a proven 
carthenogenic (sp) and is consequently lethal - s*d the ozone layer if you 
breath this in!

Also the the Japs were very p*ssed off when catalytic converters became law 
since they had developed very lean burn engines that produced fewer 
emissions than "cat" engines.

However i did not know ordinary unleaded was more harmful than leaded 
petrol!?

Rupert

It all sounds like another of those scare stories that gets blown
out of all proportion.

What i heard is that unleaded contains more benzene than leaded,
and that super-unleaded contains even more, thus MPs (who knows
exactly which ones) have called for it to be banned. Also it
appears that unleaded in a non-cat car actually produces more
pollutants than leaded. Then the environmentalists start off
about you either die of cancer from benzene or brain damage!

Still, its more interesting than Charles love life 8-)

mb

    I don't think it's a case of worse, just 'just as bad'.
    
    Leaded or unleaded, either fuel makes the same emmissions as the other.
    
    The only reason lead was in fuel was as a lubricant to the engine
    innards, or at least that's what I was lead to believe. Unleaded
    engines simply have higher grade parts inside or improved lubrication
    or both, and so do away with the lead (ie. valves and valve seats )
    
    Unleaded is simply put into cat cars because the converter does not
    take to kindly to having lead spewed through it. It has nothing to do
    with the engine.
    
    Leaded + old engine + no cat = bad emmissions
    Unleaded + old engine + no cat = knacked engine
    
    Leaded + old engine + cat = knacked cat
    Unleaded + old engine + cat = knacked engine
    
    Leaded + new engine + cat = knacked cat
    Unleaded + new engine + cat = not so bad emmissions
    
    Leaded + new engine + no cat = bad emmissions
    Unleaded + new engine + no cat = just as bad emmissions
    
    ???!!! :-)
    

That Hoary old chesnut was trotted out by who ever was being interviewed on the
Radio 4 news last night about unleaded petrol having no lead - this simply is
NOT true, it has no ADDED lead!  All petrol contains lead - just in smaller
quantities than the amount that is added to "normal" petrol.

On the subject of benzene, the latest scare is the danger to the health of
Filling station workers, since all petrol contains about 2 pints of benzene in
every ten gallons of petrol (approximately), and this vaporises and spreads over
the forecourt when filler caps are removed/vehicles filled up/forecourt main
tanks are being filled!

				Malcolm.

    Re: 1355.27
    
// Heard on the radio that unleaded petrol is just as bad as leaded.
    
// I was aware that _super_unleaded_ contained benzene, which is a proven
// carthenogenic (sp) and is consequently lethal - s*d the ozone layer if you
// breath this in!
    
    Not so. The (extra) lead in leaded petrol hangs around in the
    environment much longer than does the (extra) benzine in high octane
    unleaded. Also, if you use leaded petrol, there is no way to stop the
    lead from puking out all over the environment.
    
    Filling stations can (and should) be fitted with filters to prevent
    vapour from flowing all over the place when deliveries are being made.
    Cars can (and should) be fitted with filters in their petrol fillers to
    prevent vapour from leaking when the tank is filled. Some cars are so
    equipped Mine is. It has a spring loaded flap which seals the filler
    pipe. The petrol pump nozzle is a tight(ish) fit in the filler and it
    dislodges the flap as it is fully inserted. Then, as fuel is piped in,
    the only way for the displaced vapour to flow out is via a breather
    fitted with a filter. I understand that this is now required in the US.
    
// Also the the Japs were very p*ssed off when catalytic converters became law
// since they had developed very lean burn engines that produced fewer
// emissions than "cat" engines.
    
    Simply not so at all. The law does not say that cats must be fitted.
    The law mandates levels of emissions that, at the moment, can only be
    met by the fitment of cats. The biggest objectors to these laws in
    Eurpoe were the local manufacturers who had no experience of cats and
    who had done some work on lean burn engines. The Japanese manufacturers
    were better placed to benefit from cats as they had lots of experience
    with them in the cars that they made for the US and Japanese markets.
    Ford argued at the time that if they could have less strict emissions
    laws for a few more years, they would be able to develop lean burn to
    the point where they could meet the stricter standards. They lost the
    arguement.
    
// However i did not know ordinary unleaded was more harmful than leaded
// petrol!?
    
    It isn't (see above)
    
    Re 1355.29
    
//    The only reason lead was in fuel was as a lubricant to the engine
//    innards, or at least that's what I was lead to believe.
    
    Lead was originally added to fuel to boost its octane rating. As a side
    effect, it was later found that the layer of lead oxide that build up
    on the exhaust valve seat would protect it and allow the use of lower
    grade material in the seat. Also, it has been alleged that tetra-ethyl
    lead, the form normally used to boost the octane rating, worked as an
    upper cylinder lubricant. This latter feature is unlikely to be
    relevant to any car using a decent modern oil.
    
    In fact, almost any car engine can be run with unleaded fuel now. If
    you need 4 star, you can use super unleaded or, in many cases, have a
    minor mod made to the ignition timing and use normal unleaded. If you
    have soft exhaust valve seats, you can use unleaded for 3 out of 4
    fills and put 4 star in on every 4th fill up.
    
    Re: 1355.30
    
// -< Thank goodness for Diesel I say! >-
    
    I expect that more people have died from lung cancer caused by the
    particulate emissions than from cancer caused by benzine vapour. Plus
    the respiratory troubles that arise from the same source.
    
    On the subject of what causes more harm:
    
    Children living near main roads have higher levels or lead in their
    brains than do children living in low traffic areas. There is an
    established correlation between increased levels of lead in the brain
    and decreased intelligence.
    
    Estimates of the number of avoidable deaths due to respiratory problems
    caused by car exhaust polution vary widely. The highest figure recently
    published by the medical profession (as opposed to the numbers
    originating from environmental pressure groups) is 10,000 deaths per
    year in the UK.
    
    Finally, why use benzine as an octane booster anyway?
    
    Easy, there are (less harmful) alternatives but benzine is cheaper.
    
    		John O'C

>Then, as fuel is piped in,
>the only way for the displaced vapour to flow out is via a breather
>fitted with a filter. I understand that this is now required in the US.
    
I thnk some states have mandated these, but not all stations (at least here
in Georgia) have them yet.  I suspect as old pumps are replaced, the new ones
will have the vapour catchers.  Are the same in the UK?  The ones over here
have a black flexy pipe over the fuel filler nozzle that traps the vapors
as you pump the gas.  I'm not sure if it vents it to the atmosphere through
a filter or routes it back to the underground tank.

You can't pump the fuel as quickly with the vapor catchers and you aren't
supposed to top off the tank either, because the vapor catchers can pull the
excess fuel out and not kick in the automatic shutoff.

>In fact, almost any car engine can be run with unleaded fuel now. If
>you need 4 star, you can use super unleaded or, in many cases, have a
>minor mod made to the ignition timing and use normal unleaded. If you
>have soft exhaust valve seats, you can use unleaded for 3 out of 4
>fills and put 4 star in on every 4th fill up.
    
For older cars (most cars over here have been designed to run unleaded since the
mid 70's I think) you can get away with unleaded provided you don't drive the
car too hard or fast.  For low revving engines, like the Studebaker's, the extra
wear caused by no lead will not be evident for 1000's of miles, which isn't
really an issue with a car 70 years old.

I have some 20-25 year old fuel that smells like turpentine that I add to the
tank every other fill up or so.  It contains lead and might help lubricate the
valves a bit.  I tried it in my lawn mower a few times and besides smelling
awful, even out the exhaust, it made the mower run like sh*t....:-)

Dave

Re: .31

>    Simply not so at all. The law does not say that cats must be fitted.
>    The law mandates levels of emissions that, at the moment, can only be
>    met by the fitment of cats.

I thought that the law said that if you fit some kind of thermal sensor
(or something like that) in the exhaust system them you MUST fit a cat.
The lean burn engines that actually outperformed cats for environmentally
friendliness need this sensor, so (according to the law) would also need
a cat!

The same program that gave this information (a year or so ago) also
showed how the "standard euro-cat performance" levels were measured in
countries whose air temperature was high. In most countries the temperature
is much lower, so the actual performance is degraded.

I wonder how many Eurocrats get backhanders from cat making companies?

mb

    I've said before in here, though I can't find it!, we were conned by
    catalysts. Catalysts were invented to solve the problems of San
    Franciso smog.
    Benzene is not lethal, it is harmful. At university we used to wash lab
    equipment in benzene. Not good practice and I'm sure it doesn't happen
    today. If it were lethal I would not be here. Hurrah you say.
    The only certain thing is that all petrol harms the environment when
    burned. The best thing to do is to burn as little as possible -
    lean-burn seems the right way to go. Cats increase fuel consumption.
    We should of course be careful, vapour trapping at filling stations is
    a good thing, it costs little and prevents vapours escaping. 
    Lead poisons catalysts hence they can't be mixed, given that many
    journies are less than 10 miles the cat never becomes effective. They
    therefore have little effect on town air pollution. Unleaded has
    reduced brain damage to those who live near to roads in particular and
    everyone in general.
    From the little I heard the report sounded to be based on well reasoned
    points, the howls of protest and dismissals come mostly from those with
    vested interests.
    
    Andrew

Yes I agree with the last few, this argument about how good cats are 
smelled a bit fishy - or in the case of my cat, a bit like bad eggs!

Cats seem to tackle the symtoms, not address the core issue.

    Well said Mr. Dodd.
    
    Laurie.

    The cat on my car is fitted 8 inches from the exhaust manifold. Is this
    usual? The engine is only 650cc though. (Suzuki Capuccinno). It also
    has an exhaust temperature detector mounted next to the cat but I have
    no idea why. As the engine is so small it seems to reach operating
    temperature within half a mile of leaving home. Does this mean the
    cat is more effective?
    
    Barry.

>>    The cat on my car is fitted 8 inches from the exhaust manifold. Is this
>>    usual? The engine is only 650cc though. (Suzuki Capuccinno). It also
    
    ...if it was any further away, you'd have to tow it behind you ! 
    
    Graham %^)
    

Re.31
    
>>    Re: 1355.30
    
>>// -< Thank goodness for Diesel I say! >-
    
>>    I expect that more people have died from lung cancer caused by the
>>    particulate emissions than from cancer caused by benzine vapour. Plus
>>    the respiratory troubles that arise from the same source.
    
>>    On the subject of what causes more harm:
    
>>    Children living near main roads have higher levels or lead in their
>>    brains than do children living in low traffic areas. There is an


	I am always willing to be corrected/shot down!

	However, your assertion in the above about particulates is, at best,
unproven.  It is the subject of much scientific discusion (sp?).  On the subject
of lead/Benzine/CO2, but not NOx, Diesel scores hands down over any form of
petrol and is thus, much less harmfull, on balance, to people and the
environment.  It also has the advantage, in approximately equal comparison, of
being consumed in lower quantities.

				Malcolm.

    Doea anyone have any opinions on the bottles of 'Petrol Treatment'
    stores like Halfords sell?  The claims on the bottle make them sound
    like Lily the Pinks medicinal compund - cleans the engine, improves
    economy, creates a lasting solution for world peace, etc.  Are they
    worth the four quid?
    
    Mikef

    Personally, I don't use them. They're not necessary on any normal road
    car in Britain and I don't trust them too much.
    
    HOWEVER
    
    ...in some countries (Spain, for example) where fuel is sometimes of a
    lower grade, they can be handy. I know my father always put additive in
    his GB-spec MG metro that he took out there while he was working.
    Having said that, it really did love British fuel when it got back
    home!
    
    ...plus in latest MiniWorld see a mad, tuned-up Mini which requires a
    very high grade fuel (like, 6-star!!) and so the guy who owns it has to
    put additives in every time he fills up or else engine damage will
    ensure! A little impractical me thinks, even if it was very powerful...
    
    So, in general, no... I don't like the stuff.

    re-1
    
    Is there a difference between Petrol Additives (seperate bottle) and
    Petrol Treatment?   They had both in the store.  I think the Treatment
    generally cleans things out rather then ooommps the petrol itself, bit
    like fuel injection cleaners (just about to try one of those on my
    Astra).
    
    Mikef

    re -1,-3
    
    I use stuff called REDEX which is a cleaning additive which you add 
    to a tankfull every 1500 or so miles, it's supposed to clear carbon
    build up in the carb. and clean other components, personally i find
    it does work and notice better idling and smoother aceleration.
    
    They make it for injection + diesel engines these days aswell,
    i remember my mates using STP Petrol additives in their mk2 escorts
    many moons ago which used to improve the octane of the petrol
    making it go faster, do they still sell this stuff down at halfords??
    
    regards
    
    Mark.
                                                                

    BAck to last weeks report on unleaded...
    
    Catalytic converters became mandatory on all new petrol engined cars
    from 1/1/93. There are 22 million cars on the road - 4 million have
    cats, it is estimated that 12 million cars use unleaded.
    Lead was added to make petrol burn more smoothly, lubrication of valve
    seats was a bonus, I think the lead is in the form of lead
    hydrocarbons, Tetraethyl lead springs to mind.
    Professor Roger Perry, Imperial College London said if he had the
    choice of being exposed to lead or benzene, he'd go for the lead every
    time.
    
    Andrew

on Pertol additives--

I use good old REDEX in my lawn mower and it works great, but I don't think I would 
dare put in my Supra.......

On "Super Unleaded"..  

The US has three grades of unleaded (well the GAS station I was in last week did) 
but I think the US highest octane unleaded is equivelent to UK normal so even if we 
use normal unleaded in the UK we are polluting more than most US cars.... anybody 
like to comment on this.

Peter.

    Here in the U.S., pump octane is (RON+MON)/2, or the average of the 
    Research Octane Number and the Motor Octane Number, or something to 
    that effect.  I think that your equivalent octane is reported as 
    several higher than here.  Our regular unleaded is 87, what is yours?
    
    Jeff

    96 I think. Certainly more than 94......

Errr..

They don't put the octane numbers on the pumps anymore but I think it may be:

	Standard Unleaded 89

	Super Unleaded 93

but if anyone knows better please advise.

Peter

    I thought super unleaded war RON 98 ?

    The problem with unleaded in the UK is that the lead has been
    'replaced' by increasing the amount of benzene.
    
    The World Health Organisation classes benzene as a proven carcinogenic
    at any level above 0 ppm (parts per million).
    
    In the USA and the rest of Europe benzene is banned and the
    uncarcinogenic additive MTBE is used instead.
    
    MTBE is not used in the UK because, according to the government
    ministers responsible, it has not been tested.
    
    Questions:
    
    	Are people in the UK being treated as gullible by Govt ministers?
    
    	Are people in the USA and rest of Europe really exposed to an 
    	untested additive?

yes

and yes

Do you believe the government, especially when a s... load of their income comes 
from petrol taxes and the oil companies.  They will do what ever the oil companies tell 
them to do....plus its get the motorist season in the UK.  So the "truth" will never be 
known.

Peter

        
	<<   -0.1 reformatted for those without cinescope   >>
        ======================================================
        
	yes

	and yes

        Do you believe the government, especially when a s... load of
        their income comes  from petrol taxes and the oil companies. 
        They will do what ever the oil companies tell  them to
        do....plus its get the motorist season in the UK.  So the
        "truth" will never be  known.

	Peter

sorry, I've resized my create window, so I hope its OK now

P.

    The notion may be mostly academic, but what would the air polution
    concerns be if all the gasoline engines were replaced by diesel
    engines?  One reply a few back says 'Catalysts were invented to solve
    the problems of San Franciso smog.'  I remember when I used to live in
    the San Francisco Bay area people used to talk about the smog and say
    'at least it isn't as bad as L.A.'  Actually the previous noter
    probably meant Los Angeles.  But, I cannot imagine southern California
    with nothing but diesel engines.  I toured Czechoslovakia sevral years
    ago, before the 'velvet revolution, and the soot everywhere from the
    dirty coal burning, would look good compared to Los Angeles in a diesel
    storm.
    
    Bob

    Can anyone explain the black symbol of a petrol pump with the letters 
    'p' 'b' inside a circle with a line a through it. I guess it means
    leaded fuel only or 'no unleaded'. I was wondering what 'p b' stands
    for.

    Royston

    
    Plomb and Blei?
    
    French and German for Lead.
    
    I'd assume the line to suggest NOT to use lead.    
    
    Mark

    Re .-1:
    
    The chemical symbol for lead is Pb. From the Latin Plumbum, hence
    plumbing, plumb lines etc.
    
    John O'Connor

    Thanks guys, thats great. Please excuse my ignorance, however it does
    assume that the bod filling up knows French/German/latin or chemical
    symbols :-)
    
    Royston

I thought Pb==lead was common knowledge. I learnt it during
the third year when Chemistry was compulsory - before I made
O level choices.

// I thought Pb==lead was common knowledge. 
    
    	Same here.
    
    John O'C

    
    Lead hadn't been discovered when I was school! :^)
    
    Mark

    
>>>    Lead hadn't been discovered when I was school! :^)
    
>>>    Mark


	That must have been in Pre-Roman times then?

				Malcolm.

    No it was plumbum back then, lead came much later.
    
    Andrew

    Re: Octobers discusson on the use of Benzine:
    
    From yesterdays FT:
    
    The EU is investigating the use of Benzine in unleaded petrol and is
    expected to ban of restrict its use.
    
    John O'Connor

>>>    No it was plumbum back then, lead came much later.
    
>>>    Andrew

	OK then, I'll bite (showing my h'igorance again) - what's the difference?

				Malcolm.

Like Andrew, I suspect it means we used to take our lessons in Latin!

Another old f---

    re .65
    
    It was an attempt at a play on words. The Romans, nor the pre-romans
    called lead, lead. The Romans called it plumbum, or so we believe. The
    word lead was first used in... dunno till I look in my OED. Pre Romans
    probably called it "That stuff which is heavy" however it was spelt
    lead.
    
    Andrew

	Don't take me too seriously Andrew, look back at .62 - it has a big
smiley on the title line.

	Thanks for the explanation anyway - but is it true?

				Malcolm.

    Oh you wanted facts - ask someone else.
    
    Andrew
    
    PS Take you seriously, on a Friday?! Pah!
    
    PPS Should I use smileys? Only if I win the lottery.
    
    PPPS Haven't bought a ticket.