Conference terri::cars_uk

    I think that you may have to appear in court if it looks like you are
    going to lose your license (and you probably will for 3 months), I dont
    think they give you the option of pleading guilty by letter but I`m not
    completey positive.
    
    
    Martin

    Your main problem as far as I can see it that you were `done' in South
    Wales. These is the `worse' place in the UK - to my knowledge.

    A friend of mine was stopped for doing low 80s in a 944 on a A-class
    dual carrageway - no other cars on the road. He was ALMOST banned.
    Things which counted against him were :

    	1. Fast car - he may have go away with it had he been in a 2CV
    	2. Wife and Children on board - don't ask my why.

    He took his lawyer with him and was glad that he did.

    	Best of luck.

    		Rik

    
    Do you admit you were travelling at over 100 mph?
    
    Did you have any good reason for travelling at that speed?
    
    If the answer to the first question is yes and the second is no, then
    do the least possible. The less effort you cause the court the better.
    
    If you dispute the speed, have a chat with a lawyer (or the AA?) to see
    if you have any grounds to fight it on, equally if you have a good
    reason (eg pregnant woman about to give birth in the car) talk it
    through with a lawyer.
    
    The courts have a lot of business and the less people try and fight 
    fixed penalty (30 mph over limit = 3 month ban?) the more cases they
    can try, so if you are going to go to court and try and defend yourself
    you'll need a strong case (remember the magistrates will have heard 
    every argument at least 100 times!).
    
    Mark

    re: .2

	I'd be interested to know how your friend found out the things
	which counted against him.

	I was under the impression that it more or less related to which
	side of the bed the magistrate got out of that morning ... that
	and the guide lines set down for each type of case.

	My advice (FWIW ... probably not a lot) would be to get legal advice 
	to find out 'the rules of the game' but defend yourself in court.

  Mark

    
    If your licence is 'necessary for you to do your job' or something like
    that, and your record is good, then you may not get banned, but you have 
    to prove it's necessary (letter from employer etc), and you would be in
    real trouble if you got caught doing anything else naughty within the
    next few years! 

    My advice is to marry into Royalty as quickly as possible.
    
    You'll probably get off with a small fine.
    
    Ian
    

    I heard that the rule was that you could be banned if you are doing
    more that 50% over the limit ... so thats 45 in a 30 limit, 60 in
    a 40 limit, and 105 in a 70 limit (although 100 is probably enough)

 Mark

    I think that driving at over 30mph above the limit is deemed as
    "reckless driving", and it is this offence that you get banned (12
    points) for.
    
    I read recently of someone who was stopped on the M42 for doing well
    over 100mph, but escaped a ban when it was pointed out that as the
    motorway was empty, he would not be a danger to other road users, thus
    he was not "reckless" according the then exact definition. I think that
    the "exact" definition may now have changed however!!
    
    Anyway, back to the original problem. It is highly likely that you will
    get a ban, but you may manage to get it reduced from the typical 3
    months to a month (or even a couple of weeks) if you can offer a very
    convincing argument that OTHER PEOPLE will suffer if you lose your
    licence. It is unlikely that the court will give a stuff as to whether
    you need the car for your job, but if your job was ferrying OAPs to and
    from some very remote location, and nobody else could do the job, then
    you may get away with it.
    
    Definitely get legal advise though, despite that fact that we all can
    offer suggestions, only someone who deals with these cases regularly
    can be truly depended on!
    
    mb

I'm not speaking from personal experience (honest), but I understand
that if you are banned for speeding your insurance premium will increase
by about 50%. If you're banned for drink driving it will increase by at
least 100% if you can still get insurance.

Steve

    Dave,
    
    If you take legal advice, take it in the town where you would go to
    court, not necessarily your home town. They will know the best excuses
    to put forward in that particular court and if you have them represent
    you they will be known to (and probably be friends of) the local beaks.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Peter. 
     

>>    The point somebody made about insurance, don't worry, my insurance only
>>    went up after the third ban (although I did suffer an increase after
>>    the first one because I resigned from the IAM and lost their discounted
>>    insurance).

I thought the IAM cancel your membership if you get a driving ban ?!


...art

Re: .10

As the law stands there is no legal reason why you can't be banned for
being 1 mph over the speed limit.

You *will* be banned if you accumulate more than 12 penalty points - except 
in the most exceptional circumstances.

Re: .-1

It sounds better to say you resigned that you were thrown out.  Anyway, you
could resign before they got around to throwing you out.

jb

    
    re .15, .16
    Yes, that's what I did, I wrote to them, told them about the ban, and
    resigned.
    
    I resigned not only because they were going to chuck me out anyway, but
    because I realised that there was a discrepancy between their ideals
    and my driving. I had passed the tests (car & bike) to prove that I
    could, but I couldn't stop driving fast.
    
    Rob
    

    re: .16

    I wasn't talking from a legal viewpoint, but rather from one
    of the recomendations given to magistrates. In a previous job, I 
    worked with a part-time magistrate (aren't they all), and he gave 
    me a copy of these recomendations.

  Mark

    
    This regular M4 thrasher (Reading/Cardigan most weekends) would be
    grateful if you could identify the precise bridges for the check.
    
    "There for the grace of God go I" & all that stuff.
    
    Rural Wales can be amazing. People get done for all sorts of things
    that wouldn't cause the most excitable plod to get excited around here 
    -- but hardly any locals get done for driving decrepid Landrovers minus
    lights, exhausts, brakes, bald tyres etc.
    
    Suspect there will be active police checks in the Cardigan area. 5
    youngsters between 17 & 23 killed in a single crash at Christmas --
    speedo registered 100mph in wreck. The fast extension from Pont Abraham
    to Carmarthen is frequently empty, & 3 figure speeds can be safe but
    not legal. Plod now check it regularly, especially for the boy-racer
    fringe who drive quickly & unsafely.

    	At the risk of being a Party Pooper are people in this note really
    indicating that breaking the speed limit is a clever thing to do and
    that getting away with it is something to be proud of.
    
    	I cannot think of many valid reasons for doing over a 100 mph. on a
    public highway. You may have a death wish for yourself but don't we
    have a duty to others. If you wiped out my family cos you were going
    too fast to stop I would not be amused.
    
    	Take it on the chin Dave say your sorry and it won't happen again.
    By the way don't change your name to Tonup.
    
    Regards
    Dave.

    RAT-HOLE ALERT                               
    
    Re -1. OK, I bite on the rat-hole. 
    
    In case of confusion between us (as we share same name but different
    views)
    
    	I don't see evidence of people claiming to be clever. Nothing
        clever about exceeding the limit in a car built for >140mph as 
        mine is  -- only a question of pressing the throttle.
    
	More an occupational hazard. Reading/ Birmingham return for
        customer meeting tomorrow. Reading/Olympia for exhibition 
    	Wednesday. Reading/Manchester return Thursday for customer 
        meeting. Reading/ West Wales Friday to go home. 
    
        Not an unusual week. If, & when, the road is safe, I may
        exceed 70mph on one of the motorways. I like to get back for
        dinner sometimes --  but I'll make sure I put other road users at 
        less risk than some ditherer who cannot make his mind up what lane 
        to be in at any speed.
    
        It's my license & my risk. Not a question of pride - more a
        calculated judgement. I will pass marked police cars at 80mph if
        the conditions are safe, but not 90. 
    
    	FWIW, I was at my most dangerous some years ago with the blanket 
        50mph limit. Everything happened so leisurely that I forgot to 
        concentrate on several occasions. That never happens when I drive
        legally at more than 200kph in Germany on the way to some customer
        meeting - even though you don't get many irresponsible lane users in 
        Germany.
    	
        END RAT-HOLE -- but I agree about keeping low profile if the demon
        radar or plain car does get you. If you get done by a marked car,
    	you deserve all you get for not paying adequate attention to all
        around you when travelling.
                    

    		Say no More!
    
    Dave.

    I think there is another topic where we have done the "speeding - safe
    or dangerous" discussion.
    
    Steve

Watch out for a Green Rover 8xx !

Jc

    Re -1
    
    In fact watch out for any newish (F-H reg) Rover 8 series on the MWay....
    I know 3 or 4 people that have been nicked by these!! 
    
    ..Craig
    

    Just as a side note:
    
    If a unmarked car orders you to pull over - how do they do it, and
    where do you stand with reference for pulling over...
    
    I remember reading about someone who didn't stop, the car followed him
    home, and eventually about 4 police cars arrived at the house and they
    arrested him for failing to stop. He got off by saying he never at any
    point thought the unmarked car was a police car, and the officers IN
    UNIFORM inside the car... ``could have been anyone''.
    
    Does anyone remember this? I believe it was about 2 years ago...
    
    
    				Lewis.

    They usually have flashing blue lights shining through the grille, and
    an illuminated "POLICE STOP" sign on the rear parcel shelf. The really
    sneaky ones have the sign folding down when not in use, and only
    unfolds when they pull in front of the evil doer.
    
    I once got stopped for so called speeding by an unmarked car. They had
    not tailed me for far enough, because I spotted them putting on their
    caps in my mirror, and then proceeded at 28.5mph.
    
    Steve

    Just received a copy of the Police Statement that will be going to the
    Court. It appears that the lone PC used a VASCAR speed meter device (?) to
    clock my speed at 104.9 over a check distance of 0.312 miles.
    Anyone like to comment on the legality of this ?
    
    Dave.
    

    Re. an earlier question, how do unmarked cars identify themselves
    
    In my case, the Police car had a 'Kojak' style blue lamp, with power
    from a flexi-lead.  This lamp was put onto the dashboard of the Police
    car once I had been 'clocked' in excess of the speed limit, which is
    when I noticed it.  After we had slowed down, it was put onto the
    roof of the car so that other traffic could see it.
    
    This particular car had no other obvious identifying features.
    
    
    Re. driver not stopping for an unmarked car.
    
    I had heard of this in the past year, when a woman did not stop and
    actually drove even faster - attempting to 'get away'.
    
    When it appeared in court, the woman was given 3 penalty points,
    but was not fined due to the circumstances.  I think the Judge made
    some statement that the Police should take more care in preventing
    this sort of occurrence.
    
    J.R.

    Re .34
    
    Law says that any evidence must be corroborated. An approved mechanical
    device for recording speed is valid corroboration, and VASCAR is
    approved.
    
    Having said that, the plods normally show the device to the motorist
    when he is stopped, to demonstrate the speed recorded; if he did not,
    it would appear to be a ground for querying it. Also, VASCAR is a
    device for timing a vehicle between two predetermined points a known
    measured distance apart, and deriving the speed from that time. The
    P.C. will note visually when you pass each point, and record it bu
    pressing a button on the VASCAR. He might, therefore, be a moment late
    recording the first point, and a moment early on the second. 104.9 for
    0.312 miles = about 10.7 seconds. 99mph would be a time of 11.35
    seconds. I leave it to you as to whether it is worth arguing.
    
    If you are in the AA or RAC, use their free legal advice.
    
    Steve

Well, you were followed for more than 0.3 mile, which is the distance you must
be "clocked" over for their recorded speed to count.

I'm not sure about the *lone* PC though.  When I've seen Vascars being operated
by a cop in the passenger seat (on TV, not for real!), it takes a reasonable
amount of effort and concentration.  I doubt whether the driver could do it,
while still driving *safely*, and I think the results obtained in this way
would be very suspect.  I also doubt whether they are *allowed* to operate
the machine while driving.

I'd query this if I were you...

Scott

The device I saw, which the copper referred to as a "Vascar", was a bit more
complex than pressing a button.  It had a video to record the offending driver,
on which the operating copper (ie the passenger in the plod car) manouevred a
horizontal line with a joystick-type device.  He tried to keep this line level
with a fixed point on the offending car (eg rear bumper).  Somehow this then
gave him the speed of the other car ...?

I presume it also used the plod car's speed and road-side markings (eg the
motorway 100-yard posts) to get the speed, but they didn't explain that.  Anyone
know what this device is?

I still maintain that the driver of a plod car in "fast pursuit" cannot be
driving to the required standard if he is also trying to operate a Vascar.

Conversely, if he's concentrating on driving, it is certain that he can't be
concentrating on the Vascar enough to press the buttons (assuming the method in
.36) at the right moment...

Scott (again)

    
    VASCAR is an acronym for Vehicular Automated Speed Calculation and
    Recording. The vehicle with the vascar set drives along the road to be
    observed and presses a button at two fixed points: this computes the
    exact distance between the points. Then when a target vehicle passes
    the points pressing another button measures the elapsed time. The built
    in calculator then gives the speed.
    
    It sounds like you have seen an enhanced version of some sort.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Vascar is often fitted to Police Motorcycles. Given the rarity of of
    Police pillion officers, I guess operation by the driver is acceptable!

    Although no one has said, I suspect that the speed trap is at the Magor
    junction of the M4 - just before Newport.  If you look, marks have
    been painted on the motorway at that point and on more than one
    occasion, I've seen cars pulled in by plod at the bottom of the long
    decline to the Coldra intersection.  It's also am ideal location for
    a static VASCAR trap as there's a motorway patrol HQ hidden behind
    the hedge on the right as you approach Magor.
    
    -Dave.
    

I was nicked doing an average of 100.4 down the M5 on December 17th. I contacted 
the RAC legal service who advised me to go to court with a solicitor present. I
told them that if possible I wanted to avoid having to take time off to go to
court so they then dictated what I should write in the mitigating circumstances
section of the summons and I sent it off with a plea of guilty. The RAC said
that the court would probably convict me and then request that I attend court as 
they where considering disqualification, but pleading guilty by post was worth a 
try.

I have just received notification that I have been fined 150 pounds and my 
license has been endorsed with a further 3 points. I already had 6 points on my
license 3 of which where for speeding so I expected to have to attend court.

FYI I was stopped in Warwickshire between J10 and J11 the police said that if I
had been 2 miles further down the road I would be in Gloucestershire where drivers
of vehicles travelling at speeds in excess of 100 mph are subject to automatic
disqualification.

			Mark.

    Re .42 - Dave your suspicions are correct, the Magor junction is where
    its at, as confirmed by my summons.
    
    Dave.
    
    

    Re: .44 Is it possible to adjust your line length so it doesn't go off
    the right hand edge of the page?  It would make it a little more
    readable.
    
    Jeff.

    As written in this conference earlier, I got done on my birthday (31
    december) for speeding. 
    
    How long does it usually take (in Scotland) before you actually hear
    from the police? 
    If they decide not to *do* me after all, will they let me know? 
    
    Cheers,
    Flying Dutchman

>    How long does it usually take (in Scotland) before you actually hear
>    from the police? 

You should receive a notice from the procurator fiscal's office within 3
calendar months.  They have to notify you of proceedings within a certain time
limit, but I can't remember what it is.

	Brian

    Re Rathole
    
    The argument is that excessive speed of itself creates safety risk, and
    that if you accumulate the points for repeated offences, you should get
    banned.
    
    The other case was heard in open court, and I was not there, and cannot
    comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of the sentence. However,
    the judge did say that the punishment was for the wrondoing - ie,
    pulling out without checking properly - not the fortuitous or otherwise
    result. Most of us at some time has pulled out under such conditions;
    usually the result is hooting and gestures. Sometimes it is bent metal
    and an insurance claim. On this occasion it was a tragic death; but the
    criminal act was no different, no worse, no better.
    
    Rathole No. 2.
    
    What the case did show was how vulnerable motorcyclists are to
    relatively minor impacts.
    
    Steve

    Ref .0, .49
    
    Dave, could you enlighten us on whether you used tactic a, b, c, d, or
    whatever from your basenote?, and if you were present at the
    proceedings whether you would use the same or different ploy another time?
    (not implying there will necessarily be a next time, of course :-)  )
    
    Jay

    Do Not Panic.
    
    If you get banned, you do not get any points.
    
    If you had points before, you would have had them zeroed even.
    
    Wonko_the_sane_who_is_expert_in_these_matters

    That's another story :-(

    
    Can a single police motor-cyclist nick you for speeding ??
                                                             Doogz

    
    Yes. See the notes in here about 1 officer and a calibrated speed
    device (presumably his speedo in this case).
    
    Mark

    Motorcycle rozzers have smiths calibrated speedo's , They are
    calibrated in 1 mph increments. I recall that they replace the
    original speedo. So yes I agree with .60.
    
    
    
    	Garry

    If you do get pulled by one of these folks it's worth trying the 'Peter
    Talboys' method of escape ....
    
    1. Get out of car and look sheepish
    2. Grovel lots to copper for anything that comes to mind
    3. Get copper talking about bikes
    4. Get onto coppers' favourite topic which is old bikes etc
    5. Be extremely polite and interested at all times in whatever the copper 
    is saying.
    
    This results in the copper phoning up next day and saying that although 
    Peterhas actually been doing nearly 80 in a 50 zone and that even
    though the Police bike's speedo had been calibrated Ok the copper couldn't 
    prosecute as he had forgotten to write down the registration number of 
    Peter's car !!!
    
    Some folks have all the luck .... :-}
    
    
    Jane

    ...and to repeat an old entry......
    
    Some police motorcycles as well as having calibrated speedos, are also
    equipped with Vascar. I've seen it!
    
    JK (who's wife's cousin is a Chief Inspector (Traffic)!)

    
    Re- last few     Thanks for the info.
    
    Last night I`d just pulled away from a roundabout and as the M-way
    went from 2-lanes to 3 I pulled out and started to accelerate to be
    met by a flashing blue light behind me.
    "Well sir I made it 120........."
    Cop let me go with a warning but said that if he wanted to do me I`d
    probably loose my licence because it was over 100.
    Was pretty relieved at the time but later thought that due to him being
    alone he couldn`t verify what speed I was doing.
    Well looks like I owe Lothian and Borders police one...........

    I also believe that all motorcycle police are qualified to inspect your
    car and judge it roadworthy. Not all jam-sandwich drivers are qualified
    to do this unless the road-worthiness is blatantly lacking.
    
    T.

    Surely all plod bikers and jam butty drivers a Class 1 drivers ?
    I thought they were interchangeable, sort of modular like...
    
    Wonko the Sane
    

    I thought the plod bikers (luv the description) were the creme de la
    creme, and were all hallowed by other plod drivers ?
    
    Could be that they have a further rating 'cos I know
    that these guys are the only ones who can do you 'solo'.
    
    Maybe times have changed in the age of Vascar, photos, and little
    LED displays on the dashboard.
    
    :-(
    
    
    as an aside I had a mate who rode an immaculate chopped BSA when these
    sort of bikes turned heads, who was chased by two motorcycle police
    just so that they could admire the bike and ask him loads about
    building it. :-)

Police drivers/officers are not allowed to perform a vehicle inspection without
having a Department of Transport inspection certificate (similar to the one that
authorises garages to issue MOT's). Most plods do not possess one of these, and
is they start inspecting your car you may politely ask to see their "Vehicle
Inspection Certificate". If they cannot produce one, you may request that they
allow you to carry on your lawful business.

This however does not mean that they cannot haul you and your car off to the 
police station to wait hours for a man from the Department of Transport to turn
up ! But most plods do not want the long wait and paperwork plus the aggro from
the boss for staying indoors when they are supposed to be on traffic duty.

A few years ago I tracked down a school friend, to find out what he was up to.  
Turned out he was a Plod Biker!  I got the impression that he was doing that 
'cos he was into bikes (he had a moped when he was a school, so did I, real 
mean pair of dudes then!).  His 'beat' was Blackpool and he spent most of his 
time nailing drunk drivers who had just taken him off his bike.  I doubt 
whether he could inspect a bus tiket, let alone a car for roadworthiness.

BTW he was a 'bit of a weed' at school, which was a male grammar, run on the 
lines of the SS.  He was the victim of a certain ammount of juvenile GBH, 
which spilt over onto me when I tried to pitch in on his behalf (I fancied his 
sister, you understand).  When we met up he was delighted to tell me that he 
had managed to 'bang up' just about all of his/our adolecsent tormentors.  I 
think our policemen are wonderful!

Regards,

Rob, not long for "this world"

    re .64,
    
    I thought that the law was different north of Hadrian's wall and that
    you did need two policemen there. Don't Glasweigan traffic wardens go
    round either in pairs, or have radios to call in a 'witless' (oops
    witness) when they want to give a ticket?
    
    Probably as wrong as ever
     
    Peter.

    No, I don't think traffic wardens need witnesses to give parking
    tickets.  I believe that two policemen are needed for a speeding
    conviction, though, for corroboration of evidence.
    
    Ian.

    
    re .70
    I believe the law 'North of Hadrians Wall', but South of the Scottish
    border - ie Northumberland, is the same as the rest of England.
    
    Jeff K.

    say no more... :-(

    Not sure if this is the right note  .....
    
    A friend of mine was stopped on the M4 between J13 and J14 westbound by
    the police in a green rover 800 (not sure of the number). He was doing
    an average speed of 87mph. He watched his "performance" on a video
    mounted on the dash and was congratulated on not driving too close and
    changing lanes properly. He was let off after being warned that he was
    driving too fast. A lucky escape!
    
    Lisa.

Coming soon - an easier way to loose your licence.

If you haven't already noticed the new Road Traffic Act recently received
the Royal Assent.  This means that as from a date later this year you will:

	get 6 points for speeding

	get 3 points for failing to disclose name and address of driver

	be able to convicted on the evidence of a camera and other types
	of automatic device.

Take the time before then to ease up a bit.

jb

Re .76,

> get 6 points for speeding

I thought that the new penalty was 5 points?  I'm pretty sure that's
what I heard on LBC the other day, but it was a mention in passing
rather than a news item so it may have been wrong.

That would mean 3 x speeding = no licence, so it makes quite a difference...

Jon

    
    This has got nothing to do with the M4 - but I didn't want to start a
    new topic! 
    
    Can a speeding ticket be enforced if the Policeman has incorrectly
    written down the registration number of the vehicle?
    
    We got stopped on the bike on Saturday - we were on a section of
    road which looked de-restricted, but had a 40mph limit on
    it. Unfortunately Derek had been so busy watching what a Volvo was
    doing that he hadn't seen the speed limit sign. He had just started to
    slow down, having seen the repeater sign, when the blue flashing light
    started on the Police Motorbike! The Cop was very nice about it - and
    agreed that it was 'accidental' speeding - but gave us the
    'on-the-spot' fine anyway!  The only thing is - he wrote the reg number
    wrong on the ticket. 
    
    Elaine

    If they have the wrong registration on the ticket, how can they get
    a hold of you? Did you give your name and address?
    
    Just interested!

    
    re .79
    
    Yes, they have our name and address - we didn't argue with the speeding
    offence - and gave all details as requested by the Policeman - it
    wasn't until this morning when we were looking for the other documents
    for Derek to take to the local Police station, that I noticed the
    mistake.
    
    Elaine

    I'd take legal advice on it. It seems to me, there's a fair chance
    they've made a (lucky for you) error. It's got to be worth a few quid
    to be sure, after all, points on the licence.....
    
    Laurie.