Conference terri::cars_uk

    Real time !
    
    Gugelmin is confirmed at Leyton House.

Nigel Mansell has signed for Williams as there no.1

Kieran.

    Any idea how many seasons he's signed for Kieran???
    
    Martin

    
    According to this morning's Telegraph, Senna is on $12m....
    
    Seems crazy to me.
    
    Nigel

    Erik Comas, F3000 champion, has signed to Ligier. 
    
    Larrousse are keeping Bernard and Suzuki.

RE: -.1

Yes, but only after his second pit stop for fresh rubber - so he was
circulating on new tyres, and not carrying too much fuel. The Williams seems to
be the hardest front-line chassis on tyres  - perhaps they and Leyton House 
could help each other out (LH seem to have problems getting their tyres warm -
tyre wear rarely seems to be a problem).

Steve

    
    According to Radio 4 this morning Martin Brundle has re-signed for
    the Brabham team. The team will have the use of Yamaha V12 engines.
    
    Let's hope the engines are more successful than they were in Zakspeeds
    (well the same make of engine, if not the same engines).
    
    Mark

       Just to get something going.  I was thinking, besides Alesi what
    other drivers might have a shot at winning there first GP next year.
    
       As there has been no real change at the top McHonda, Ferrari,
    Williams, and Benneton all have there stars. Will Leyton House perhaps
    inprove enough for Cappili to win or Eric Bernard luck out or
    something.
    
       Just wish someone could pull off a big surprize the way Cappili
    almost did in france this year.   But, the way things are wishing won't
    make it so.
    
                                     Getting Bored :^<
    
    Mark
    

    
    I heard (or read) that Arrows were keeping their current driver line
    up for next year.
    
    Mark

    
    10th March		USA		Phoenix
    24th March		Brasil		Interlagos
    28th April		San Marino	Imola
    12th May 		Monaco		Monte-Carlo
    2nd June		Canada		Montreal
    16th June		Mexico		Mexico City
    7th July		France		Magny-cours
    14th July		Great Britain	Silverstone
    28th July		Germany		Hockenheim
    11th August		Hungary		Budapest
    25th August		Belgium		Spa Francorchamps
    8th September	Italy		Monza
    22nd September	Portugal	Estoril
    29th September	Spain		Barcelona
    20th October	Japan		Suzuka
    3rd November	Australia	Adelaide
    
    [Source BBC]

    A couple of other bits for '91 -
    
    Dallara are using the Judd V10
    
    EJR are using a "customer" Ford V8 HB
    
    Lotus took up Donnelly's option the day before the accident
    
    Larini is confrimed at Modena with van de Poele and Apicella after the
    No 2 seat.
    
    Osella trying to run two cars for '91 as are Coloni.
    
    The main talking point must be who replaces Nannini tho'. This
    morning's paper says he is unlikely to drive again, but even if that is
    too pessimistic he must be out for next year. What are the odds on
    Warwick? He's the only top guy without a firm drive.
    
    Paul

    L'Equipe this morning has a drivers/cars list. Van De Peole is listed
    as no.2 to Larini, with Grouillard/Belmondo the two Osella drivers.
    Curiously, the list doesn't feature Lotus.
    
    Ken

    
    Hooray!
    
    Mark

        
    Yup, at least he'll get to finish a few races now.....

    

    If the no get-out bit is true it looks like another real bummer for
    Derek as he would be an excellent choice for Benetton. Being honourable
    chap he seems to be I doubt Derek would try and break the contract.
    
    Maybe Adrian Reynard will see sense and sign him up for his team in '92
    rather than a young hot-shot.
    
    Other bits for next year -
    
    The Modena mob were testing at Ricard and Baldi, van de Poele and
    Apicella all got within a second or so of Mansell's race lap time, so
    it looks like they could be a contender for next year.
    
    Williams were at Ricard too with Blundell testing a semi-auto gearbox,
    McLaren are also getting ready for an auto box.
    
    Brabham strongly denying rumours that they are after Suzuki for next
    year - that probably means he has signed a contract :-)
    
    Alesi at Fiorano for a seat fitting (reports that his helmet size has
    increased 10 fold since last season are thought to be an
    exagerration ;->)
    
    Jordan GP due to announce drivers/sponsors etc after the Japanese GP
    
    EuroBrun look to out of it for next year, as if they turn up they will
    be fined for missing Suzuka and Adelaide.
    
    Paul

    According to L'Equipe this morning, De Cesaris has turned down a
    200million lira offer from Dallara for next season. The moving chiance
    considered it insufficient and has offered his services to Benetton
    (didn't say what as...)

    The battle for the 2nd Benetton seat has started. Boutsen is no 1 on
    Benetton's list. Leaving Ligier will be a major problem especially
    since Thierry signed in view of Ligier getting the Renault engine in
    1992 (and since he has a contract with Renault ...).

    
    Is (was) Boutsen's contract with Williams or Renault. I feel he was
    treated a little shabbily and can sympathise with him if he wants to 
    stay with a top team (which Benetton are and Ligier are not.).
    
    Good luck to him, Ligier can always find some French F3 driver to take
    over. 
    
    Mark (A one time staunch Ligier supporter).

    Thierry Boutsen definitely has (had) a contract with Renault. He did a
    lot of promotional activities for them. In a recent interview he said
    that he was very disappointed with Williams and that joining Ligier was
    a new challenge, .... and that he will be very happy to drive a
    Ligier-RENAULT in 1992. 
    
    I believe he has a Renault contract. That might be the major factor
    preventing him from going to Benetton. Otherwise I'm sure he will find
    an agreement with Ligier in order to join Benetton.
    
    Between Benetton (and Barnard) and Ligier, no hesitation !

    It appears that Ligier wont let Boutsen go.
    
    The forerunners for the Benetton seat are: Capelli, Martini and ...
    Moreno.
    
    Espo-Larrousse will be powered by Ford V8 engines prepared by Brian
    Hart.

    Footwork have dropped the "Arrows" name for '91 and will be known as
    Footwork-Porsche, they have also retained Caffi and Alboreto.
    
    Last night's Screensport coverage of the final CART race from Laguna
    Seca (great track btw) was full of speculation about Michael Andretti
    and Benetton, including rumours of a test at Autopolis next week. The
    man himself however stressed that he would be driving for Newman-Haas
    next year so who's bluffing?
    
    Prediction for next year -
    
    Front runners - McLaren, Ferrari, Benetton, Williams, Tyrrell, Leyton
    House, Modena
    
    Up-coming if the engine works - EJR, Brabham, Footwork, Ligier, Minardi
    
    Falling back - Lola, Lotus
    
    Still no-hopers -  Dallara, Coloni, Osella, AGS
    
    Gone forever - EuroBrun, LiFe, Onyx
    
    Paul
    

    re.34
    Paul, have "LIFE" qualified for a race yet this year,reading Autosport
    it seems the team have been one of the worst prepared teams in the
    history of F1.I would be interested to hear if antone can think of a
    team quite as bad as "LIFE"
    
    steve
    

RE: -.1

I'm sorry to disappoint you; howver there was one team who make LIFE seem
positively professional.

It was a Japanese team in the mid-seventies, who were sponsored by Citizen
watch. I forget their name; however they couldn't put more than two laps
together at a time, and finally slinked off unnoticed. Their cars were tatty
- the body components never matched and, were frequently damaged (from the
previous GP) when they turned up. 

Can anyone remember their name - I sure can't - and who drove for them? 
(Perhaps this should be in the F1 trivia note).

Steve

	LIFE's problems revolve around their W12 engine. It doesn't
	produce any power to speak of and rarely manages 2 laps
	before breaking. They  might have the greatest chassis ever
	developed for all anybody knows.

	Are they planning to come back in 91?. They were trying to get
	Judd engines at one time.

	-John

    Re last few
    
    I think the Japanese team you were thinking of were Maki, they were
    mentioned in Sunday's commentary.
    
    Re LiFe
    
    They do indeed have some second hand Judds, one of their classic
    non-qualifications was when they first ran the Judd. The body-work was
    still tailored for the W12, and had to be taped onto the car.  It then
    blew off on the circuit!
    
    According to Autosport, they actually got some testing in recently and
    ran with the Judd for quite a few laps, but didn't have the cash for
    Japan and Adelaide. Like EuroBrun and (I guess) Onyx/Monteverdi they
    face a serious money fine if they turn up next year.
    
    Prix Editions quoted arumour that Tameo  were to produce a model of the
    LiFe, complete with Tow-Truck! If it wasn't so funny it would be really
    sad.
    
    So much enthusiasm going no-where.
    
    Paul

    Thierry Boutsen has refused the Benetton offer : "I have signed a
    contract with Ligier, full stop. I'm not going to change". Very
    courageous (or totally dumb) attitude.
    
    Philippe Alliot will probably drive for Peugeot in the Sports Car
    championship next year. Bye bye F1.

Could it have been Kojima (late 70's)?

Dave

    Forget about the previous chart.
    
    As Ken has pointed out the teams are being reshuffled following
    Nannini's accident. It seems that Aguri Suzuki backed by Japanese
    Autopolis will get the 2nd Benetton seat. At the same time Nicola
    Larini is now announced as staying with Ligier ! If both news are
    confirmed that leaves 
    
     - a Larrousse seat
     - and a Modena Team seat free
    
    ......

    More bad news ....
    
    All Team Lotus mechanics have been asked to look for a job. Effective
    immediately.
    
    There's a persistent rumour that EJR (if he manages to get the money)
    may want to recuperate Team Lotus manpower and assets.

    According to Autosport/ceefax etc -
    
    Larini and van der Poele are confirmed at Modena
    
    Pirro and Lehtto are confirmed at Dallara
    
    de Cesaris is talking to Coloni and for some reason Marlboro are keen
    for him to stay in F1 - has he got something on the boss or something??
    
    Ian Phillips has been fired by Leyton House which throws doubt on
    Capelli as he was closely linked with Phillips. Ivan is thought to be
    on Benetton's list.
    
    Suzuki is out of the picture at Benetton.
    
    Lotus are in severe doo-doos and unless there is a buyer/sponsor *very*
    soon, will pull out. The Chapman family do not want to be mid-field
    runners. Come Eddie Jordan - buy them up!!
    
    According to my calculations the following are still to be confirmed -
    
    Benetton #2
    Brabham #2
    Lotus #1 & 2 and engines and sponsor etc etc
    EJR #1 & 2
    Osella (team is also moving to UK base)
    AGS
    Lola - but Bernard/Suzuki look set to stay - what about the engine?
    Coloni
    
    And for 1992 ----
    
    
    
    Reynard, drivers and engine
    
    
    Paul

    Friends who have seen the Porsche engine say : it's big ! Also they
    confirmed that the engine is not 2 x straight six engine (like all V12s
    are) but 2 x V6 engines (?).
    
    re .45  In principle Larrousse should be using a Hart Cosworth engine
    next year. You're confirming what I read about Larini and Modena Team
    (and Eric Van de Poele).

RE: -.2


>>  de Cesaris is talking to Coloni and for some reason Marlboro are keen
>>  for him to stay in F1 - has he got something on the boss or something??

Paul, in a word the answer is 'yes'. The boss of Marlboro Italy is his dad!

Steve

    McLaren have signed a deal with the owners of Lydden Hill circuit in
    Kent (Near Dover) to develop the site as a private testing facility.
    The circuit will still be used for race meetings, but will also be for
    the exclusive use of McLaren for testing of F1 and road cars.
    
    The circuit will also be extensively redeveloped, and willtry to
    encourage local industry a la Silverstone.
    
    So - Ron becomes the English Enzo Ferrari with his own test track!
    We'll have to rename him, LoadsaMoney.
    
    Paul

    From Autosport -
    
    Grouillard confirmed for another year at Osella, who seem to have picked up
    quite a few staff from L/House for their GTO operation in the UK. Hart
    V8s likely for the engines, but no tyre contract yet. They are not
    going for Pirelli, and Goodyear are full. Paul Belmondo will run in a
    second car if finance can be found.
    
    Benetton choosing between Suzuki and Moreno supposedly, and also a
    strong possibility for pirelli rubber next year (this would free up a
    slot in the Goodyear roster for Osella)
    
    No news of buyers for Lotus, and Eddie Jordan has apparently got some
    more sponsorship for his own team, so is out of the running. 
    
    (there is a wonderful article by Nigel Roebuck about the possible
    demise of Lotus, it sums up my sad feelings perfectly)
    
    Alesi broke the Fiorano lap record at his first run, but as Autosport
    points out - all new ferrari drivers do that!
    
    Ferrari have signed a Japanese suspension engineer from Showa to
    develop an active ride system.
    
    Japan being lined up for two GPs in '92, the second being the Asian GP
    at Autopolis
    
    Bernie E in Moscow talking about a GP and also a Kart race for GP
    drivers to introduce the stars to the Russians!
    
    That's all folks
    
    Paul

    >> I hear that Senna still takes his Kart with him to GP events.
    
    
    And still blasts round the circuit during quite moments in testing !!
    
    Or so we are reliably informed from a mole within the team !!
    
    Shaun.

    Jirki Jarvilehto is confirmed as replacing Andrea de Cesaris at
    Scuderia Italia (Dallara chassis powered by new Judd V10). Andrea is
    reported looking for a drive in the USA.
    
    Jean-Claude Migeot ex-Ferrari and ex-Tyrrell aerodynamicist is back ...
    at Maranello (he had quit because of Barnard)

In this week's Auto Hebdo:

Frank Dernie has finally (left Lotus and) joined Ligier as chief designer.
Dernie has started working on minor and final details of the Lamborgini
powered Ligier JS35. His main task is really the design of the proper new
Ligier the Renault powered JS17 of 1992. Boutsen and Comas have driven the
Cosworth powered JS33C at Magny-Cours, Ligier Hq.

Japanese ESPO is reported being in financial trouble. Larrousse is looking 
at AGS (Cyril de Rouvre) for possibly joining forces and merging into one
team.

EJR driver setup announced as : Gachot and Moreno ...

... which leaves Aguri Suzuki in pole position for the 2nd Benetton

    According to Vogon this morning Moreno is confirmed at Benetton by
    Nelson Piquet and they add to the speculation that Blundell will take
    the second Brabham seat. As Autosport said - that'll give Murray some
    problems - Brundle & Blundell in Brabhams! Makes a change from "all
    those ini's"
    
    Paul

    Benetton have announced that they will be using Pirelli tyres next
    season, and being paid $3m for their efforts. Barnard announced that
    Pirelli were planning to develop tyres specifically to take advantage
    of the Benetton chassis.
    
    Paul

    
    Nannini will have a test session in august and he hopes to race
    again in 1992
    Belgium teletekst announced it yesterday
    
    Luc 

    Bits from Motoring News
    
    Pictures of Wattie testing the EJR 911 at Silverstone, and a generally
    impressed write up.  No obvious sponsorship though. Drivers on the
    shortlist are Suzuki, Moreno (see below on these two) Herbert Gachot
    and Schneider.
    
    Statement from Larrousse confirming Suzuki on their team for '91, and
    also confirmed rumours (!?) of a tie up with AGS.
    
    News expected yesterday (Tuesday) on Benetton No2 although smart money
    remains on Moreno.
    
    Also testing at Silverstone, Brundle in a Brabham with Yamaha bits (but
    not the engine), Andy Wallace getting miles on the LH Ilmor and David
    Coulthard getting his prize MCHonda drive, in a V12!
    
    Ligier down at Magny Cours with both Comas and Boutsen testing - Comas
    marginally quicker.
    
    Tyrrell due to start testing the Mugen V10 powered 020 on 17 Dec.
    Engine is coded RA101E as opposed to McLaren's RA100E.
    
    Changes to Phoenix to make it faster but no details.
    
    Minardi to Goodyear for '91, disgruntled with Pirelli support.
    
    Also - in The Guardian........
    
    What seems to be a virtual obituary for Lotus. No new sponsors/backers
    are on the horizon, and it really does start to look like they will not
    be around. The piece confirms that they re-signed Donnelly the day before
    his accident.
    
    Paul

In this week's Auto Hebdo:

Long story on Ligier with interview of Guy L.

Summary :                      after years of struggling, Ligier has
finally assembled the complete team (with Dernie heading the development
team and Boutsen as top driver). 1991 will be the rehearsal year. The
Lamborghini V12 will allow Ligier to beat the Cosworths and Judds (??).

1992 will be the year of the NEW LIGIER TEAM (with the Renault engine). 
They even plan to win races !

Final interesting word : based on Alain Prost's idea to start his own F1
team (the 1989 attempt - to build a Prost F1 team combining the talents
of Renault and John Barnard - failed because of disagreements about the
financial model, but Renault are still willing to build a top team) Ligier
is offering the 1992 Ligier team to Prost (and Guy would then retire).

It would be interesting to know what Prost thinks (but he will probably 
not say anything because 1. he has decided not to talk to the press anymore
and 2. if he is really interested he will probably keep his mouth shut).

    Lotus has been saved. A German financed consortium including Peter
    Collins has come up with the money to buy the team from the Chapman
    family. No details of money yet, but Mika Hakkinen has been sined as
    No2 driver with Finnish sponsorship and Marlboro money. No news on a
    number 1 but Herbert is tipped , at least until Donnelly is fit.
    
    Paul 

    Does anyone have any news on the tougher?? new rules announced for the 
    '91 F1 saeson.
    
    I only heard 10secs or so of a radio broadcast on Saturday.
    
    
    	George Frost

    
    Ceefax at the weekend said that there were 2 main changes;
    
    1 - All 16 races will count towards the championship as opposed to the
        best 11.
    
    2 - Reserve cars cannot be used to restart a stopped race if the
        original is knacked.
    
    
    Nev.

    According to all recent reports, Lambo are supplying Modena and Ligier
    only, and Lotus are having to use Judd V8s for next season at least.
    Presumably one of the first things the new owners will do is try and
    get a decent deal lined up for '92.
    
    Paul

    Snippets, rumours etc.  
    
    - Bertrand Gachot has signed for Eddie Jordan. He was previously with
      Coloni and Onyx.
    
    And from tomorrows VNS...
    
    MOTOR RACING
    * The F1 teams are at Estoril, in Portugal, for the final 1990 testing. 
      Williams have been using a semi-automatic gearbox in the Patrese car while
      test-driver Mark Blundell is using a semi-automatic suspension. The new
      Renault S3 engine has been delayed. Also testing a semi-active suspension 
      is Johnny Dumfries in a Benetton while Nelson Piquet continues with last
      years car. Ivan Capelli has put in some laps with the Leyton House, 
      powered by the Ilmor V10. The Gustav Brunner designed 1991 car should 
      debut in February. Following the exclusive deal signed by Benetton and 
      Pirelli, the question of who-uses-what tyres remains. Goodyear have 
      committed themselves to supplying Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Lamborghini,
      Leyton House, Ligier and Minardi. In the timed testing, Alesi and
      Piquet were both inside Patrese's lap record of 1'18"306. The times are:
      Alesi (Ferrari V12) 1'17"7; Piquet (Benetton Ford V8) 1'17"17; Capelli 
      (Leyton House Ilmor V10) 1'18"84; Boutsen (Ligier Cosworth) 1'22"81

    I like the rule change about all 16 counting instead of just 11.  But
    I'm not so sure about ruling out T-car usage.  These F1 cars are so 
    far out on the technological bleeding edge that it seems to me that 
    more cars end up not working at post time than in any other series.  
    It would be unfair to the fan for a driver to be taken out of a race
    simply because his black box broke or somesuch just before the start.
    
    MrT

    Ceefax last night .....
    
    Roberto Moreno finally confirmed at Benetton for next season. According
    to my calculations that leaves the follwing seats free..
    
    No 8  Brabham No2
    No11  Lotus No1
    No18  AGS No2
    No32  Coloni No2 (or 1?)
    No??  Jordan No2
    
    David Brabham and Mark Blundell seem reasonable bets for Brabham.
    Donnelly said on TV on Sunday that he aims to be back in a car by
    February (seeing the state of him I'd be surprised!) otherwise Herbert
    looks a good bet. AGS? Depends on what happens with Larrousse I
    suppose. Colini is a possible refuge for de Cesaris and all sorts of
    names have cropped up at Jordan including Schneider and Johansson.
    
    So, what about 1992 then?? ;-)
    
    Paul

    In the current issue of AUTOWEEK that just arrived yesterday there is a
    nice picture of the new EJR car taken during the recent test session. 
    It's a 3/4 left front view and it looks a lot like the Tyrrell.  Very
    nice, I think.  Showed some of the other cars, like Alesi's Ferrari,
    but there are no noticible changes.
    
    Paul
    

    Driver line up
    
    Mark Blundell is confirmed as No2 at Brabham.
    
    Derek Warwick spotted at Didcot visiting Williams - possible testing
    contract to keep his hand in?
    
    Continuing rumours on Le Prof's retirement, mostly centring around his
    tortuous personal life (he's been indiscrete with Jaques Lafitte's
    missus). Also thought to be a ploy to redesign Ferrari manangement
    
    Estoril Times
    -------------
    
    Prost	1:12.58
    Piquet	1:13.09		On Pirellis
    Alesi	1:13.12
    Patrese	1:13.33		Electronic gearbox
    Berger	1:13.66		V12 (mostly testing rather than timing!)
    Comas	1:16.10   	Both Ligiers still with Cosworths
    Boutsen	1:17.09
    Blundell	1:17.19		Reactive Williams
    Morbidelli	1:17.27		On Goodyears
    Capelli	1:17.27		On pump fuel which blew the engine, the BP
    Gugelmin	1:17.47				stuff went missing
    Larini	1:17.70
    Van de Poele 1:18.84
    Chaves	1:20.87
    Dumfries	1:21.91		Benetton active car
    
    
    Paul 
    
    

    in french press:
    
    - de Cesaris drives 2nd COLONI
    
    - FONDMETAL (ex-Osea) is left with no tyres. Pirelli and Goodyear have
      announced their final setup ... 

    Re -1
    
    No great loss in either case. 
    
    Andrea will never pre-qual, so will never block anybody, and Osella's
    team of Grouillard and ($$$ permitting) Belmondo, are hardly worth
    holding breath for.
    
    On a more positive note...
    
    Glad to see that Scabrilioni (sp?????) has moved to Lotus, he could
    produce a good car. Also - Donnelly is saying he has a drive for when
    he's fit so maybe Lotus are only after a temp to go with Hakinnen.
    
    Nannini is now rated as 65% likely to get *full* use of his arm back,
    so he should be on the road again.
    
    Tarquini is confirmed as one of the AGS drivers.
    
    Happy Christmas and a thrilling New Year to all my fellow F1
    agumentative, Senna loving/hating noters
    
    Paul

    A snippet from a couple of days back - apparently Prost has confirmed
    a contract with Ferrari for another two full seasons.
    
    
    	regards  George frost

    Any news of the FISA commitee? They were supposed to look at the rules,
    and do something about the unsanctioned dangerous driving we have seen
    last year, and the disturbing
    championship-by-pushing-people-off-the-road we have witnessed.
    
    Wasn't there also some talk about considering closely applications for
    a new licence (with a new Senna incident in the makes).
    
    It's not that these kind of things really need some publicity, we don't
    need another inter-season like last year's, but still, if anybody has
    heard...
    
    JP

    Well one of the results of the last (early Dec) meeting of the FISA
    world council is the creation of the SPICS (special inquiry commission
    ... or something similar) composed of a few members.
    
    The SPICS is chartered to look at the race incidents. They will hear
    the drivers, the marshalls, the teams, ...
    
    That's the official statement. I'm not really expecting any short term
    reaction ....

According to On Track there was a meeting of the FIA World Motorsport 
Council. They made the following changes -

	- The championship will now count all 16 races not just the 
	best 11.

	- They authorized the imposition of time penalties by stopping
	the car for the prescribed length of time as opposed to adding
	the time at the end as happened with Berger in Canada.

	- After an accident at the start (less than 2 laps) you can no
	longer change cars. You must restart in the same car.

	- There will be 2 observers and additional camers "to control
	the starts".

	- New fuel standards.

The Special Commission of Iquiry for Safety came up with -

	- In the case of an accident the case may be referred to the 
	Commision at the request of the Stewards of the Meet. The
	Commision is authorized to impose sanctions which may include
	suspension for one or more races, a fine or loss of 
	championship points. The latter may be accumulated or applied
	with suspension of sentance.

	- The Commision may impose sanctions on the team to which the
	driver belongs.

    
    Some good news about Phillipe Streiff, the French driver who was badly
    injured last (?) year.
    
    Since his accident he had lost use of all his limbs, despite the fact
    that his spinal column was not broken (only badly bruised). However,
    shortly before Chirstms he began to regain feeling in his arms and is
    now able to feed himself, wash and swim on his back. Obviously this
    rapid improvement has boosted his morale greatly and although there
    is no guarantee of further improvement (notably return of the use of
    his legs) things must now look more hopeful than they had.
    
    Apparently friends of his are now building him a specially modified car
    to enable him to get around faster than he can by arm power alone.
    
    Hopefull, too, is the fact that Sandro Nannini is already driving a
    road car around the grounds of his family's estate only a few weeks
    after his hand was sewn back on. He hopes to test an F1 car in August
    and to make a return to racing in 1992.
    
    Mark

    Allain Prost came in for some VERY harsh criticism from JMB three days
    ago.
    
    Ballestre accused Prost (not by name mind you), of playing the
    retire-not to retire game etc., etc. when everyone? knows that contracts
    had been signed in early December.
    
    and much more.......
    
    
    	regards  George Frost

    re .78
    
    George,  JMB actually accused the PRESS of printing a lot of bull****
    about the unnamed F1 topstar. About Prost he said : some people keep
    critisizing the sport when they actually earn millions and really live
    on the sport. These guys (unnamed) better shut their mouth !! 
    
    It is true that the french press keeps some suspense about Prost, when
    the Italian (and others) press has disclosed the Fusaro-Prost
    announcement. (Fusaro is Ferrari's president).

    Yes Patrick, that was the detail of the harsh criticism I mantioned.
    
    I put the note in this conference because I have had the impression
    that a lot of noters seem to think that Prost and JMB are somehow in 
    cahoots re: "if JMB had not given the 1989 title to Prost etc...."
    
    I repeat what I said a long while back, I am a fan of Prost but it is
    not valid to think that since he is French he is blindly supported by
    all and sundry who happen to be French. In some quarters of the French
    racing fraternity he is actually very unpopular.
    
    		George Frost
                                                    

    OK George. I would even go further. Since we French hear Balestre speak
    about everything on all sorts of communication media, read Balestre
    ideas/ukase, ... all in natural language I think we may represent the
    country with the hihgest percentage of ANTI-Balestre.

    I'm not so sure, Patrick.  I've yet to meet a single US international
    racing fan who like JMB.  We get relatively little (I guess) of his
    verbal output here, but what we get is seldom pleasant.  When compared
    to other sports czar's (like the guys who run American football and
    baseball) JMB is a clown.  At least he appears like that to me.  Bernie
    Eclstone may be a jerk, but he isn't a buffoon.
    
    Paul

    
    
    Does anyone have any ideas what effects a possible War may have on the
    sport..?
    
    Will F/1 be put on ice..?
    
    Do F/1 teams pay for their own fuel, or do they recieve it as a form
    of sponsership..?
    
    Questions..Questions!

Since some of the cars carry sponsorship from oil companies (Shell, Mobil, ELF)
etc, I would presume they get it for free.  Some of the lesser teams might
have to pay for it though.

Dave

    About 50% of the teams get free fuel, mostly of the special brew
    variety! The balance take "organisers" fuel. 
    
    If I remember rightly, in the last oil crisis, GPs were shortened and a
    lot of club and national level racing cancelled.
    
    At least none of the GPs are in the war zone.
    
    Paul

    >> About 50% of the teams get free fuel, mostly of the special brew
    >> variety! The balance take "organisers" fuel. 
    
    
    Now if only they could get cars to run on Lager, we wouldn't need to 
    worry about whether there was a Gulf war or not!
    
    Mark

  Testing at Paul Ricard...
  Prost (Ferrari 641/2) 1'6"05; Alesi (Ferrari 642) 1'6"26; Capelli (Leyton
  House Ilmor V10) 1'7"04; Gachot (Jordon-Ford) 1'7"58; Comas (Ligier-Ford)
  1'7"89; Martini (Minardi-Cosworth) 1'7"98; Morbidelli (Minardi-Ferrari)
  1'9"43

    I suspect that if you wanted to save fuel there are lots of other
    sports whose spectators use rather more fuel getting to the event than
    is used in Motor Sports, but then fact should never get in the way of
    good PR, or a news story for that matter.
    
    Rob

    Ricard Testing Times from Ceefax
    --------------------------------
    
    JJ Lhetto was reported as being taken to hospital with whiplash type
    injuries after backing the new Dallara into a barrier a bit quickly.
    Nothing too serious tho'.
    
    Driver		Car		Time
    
    Prost		Ferrari		1:04.85
    Gachot		Jordan-Ford HB	  05.30
    Alesi		Ferrari		  05.97
    Comas		Ligier		  06.50
    Martini		Minardi-Ford	  06.88
    Capelli		LH-Ilmor V10	  07.02
    Morbideli		Minardi-Ferrari	  07.78
    Pirro		Dallara		  08.56
    Lhetto		Dallara		  08.66
    Tarquini		AGS		  08.86
    Grouillard		Osella		  08.89
    Alboreto		Footworks-Porche  No Time
    
    There was no information as to what configurations any of these were
    acheived in, but the first 3 *must* be in full qualification. As a
    point of reference I jotted down the following from last year -
    
    Pole	Mansell - Ferrari 1:04.402
    Race Best	Prost	- Ferrari   08.012
    
    L/House  Qualifying	1:05.369
    	     Race	  08.373
    
    Benetton (Ford HB)	Qual	1:05.009
    			Race	  08.214
    
    However you read it, if he has reliability, I don't reckon Eddie J will
    have his team in pre-qualifying after the British GP.
    
    Paul
    
        			

   For non VNS readers, I put the following in VNS on monday -
    As with the earlier days practise Alain Prost and Ferrari dominated events. 
    Prost set the fastest time of 1'2"85 in the new Ferrari 642 using 
    qualification tyres. Timings at Paul Ricard were: 
    - Prost 1'2"85; 
    - Alesi (Ferrari 641/2 -  qualification tyres) 1'3"59; 
    - Prost (642 - race tyres) 1'3"70; 
    - Alesi (642 -  race tyres) 1'4"80; 
    - Martini (Minardi-Ferrari - qualification tyres) 1'5"06; 
    - Mansell (Williams-Renault RS2, semi-auto gearbox) 1'5"98; 
    - Martini (Minardi-Ferrari race tyres) 1'6"46;
    - Alesi (641/2 Active suspension) 1'6"72;
    - Patrese (Williams-Renault RS3) 1'7"40;
    - Comas (Ligier-Cosworth) 1'7"54; 
    - Gachot (Jordan-Ford) 1'7"61; 
    -  Alboreto (Footwork-Porsche V12) 1'10"29;
    - Caffi (Footwork-Porsche V12) 1'10:65

    In South Africa, Pirelli were using the Kyalami circuit for testing. Nelson
    Piquet in a Benetton put in some intense tyre testing, completing 78 and 113
    laps on tuesday and wednesday. Brabham and Tyrell were also in attendance
    with Mark Blundell the fastest of the Brabham drivers.
    
    And here is todays news: 
    Alain Prosts lap record of 1'2"85 set on friday lasted under 24hrs.
    Nigel Mansell in the Williams-Renault RS2 with semi-automatic gearbox
    and qualification tyres went around in 1'2"60. Patrese, in the RS3
    engined car completed a Grand Prix distance on sunday, with a best of
    1'5"48. Prost also comments that Ferrari are testing two engine
    configurations (high/low revs).
    
    At Kyalami, Piquet completed 129 laps on saturday and 111 sunday. Times
    are:
    - Piquet (Benneton Ford V8 - qualification tyres) 1'5"14
    - Modena (Tyrell Honda - race tyres) 1'7"81
    - Piquet (Benneton Ford V8 - race tyres) 1'7"85
    - Brundle (Brabham Yamaha V12) 1'8"81
    - Blundell (Brabham Yamaha V12) 1'9"52

    What about McHonda?
    
    Grant

    
    A report on Williams and Mansell today (in the Times I think) Frank
    Williams reckons that the new car will not be ready until after the
    first few races .. and that his biggest worry is keeping Mansell
    motivated!
    
    Apparantly he (Mansell) has got the engineers VERY motivated!!!
    
    Steve

    About Ricard testing:
    
    - Ferrari reported that they scored those good times with cars in the
    1991 legal configuration (revised aileron dimensions)
    
    - the EJR 911 is probably weighing 470kg. They expect to lose .6" when
    they add weight.
    
    - The record time set by Nigel Mansell in the Williams is truely
    excellent (again with the 1990 ailerons, but anyway ...)

    Also from Ricard and other bits -
    
    Leyton House were hitting "remarkable speeds" through the traps, but
    had gearbox problems which ruled out mega fast lap times.
    
    Williams saying they willrun with semi auto box from day one, and with
    active ride from mid season.
    
    de Cesaris signed "pre contract" with AGS.
    
    Hakkinen has set first lap record for new Silverstone - around 1:30,
    this will at least mean the British GP is a bit longer!
    
    Damon Hill thought to be about to sign as test driver for Williams
    
    Donnelly may be back by San Marino. He will be out of hospital in next
    week or so and off to the Dungl clinic. No news on temporary
    replacement, but David Brabham did some Lotus testing at Silverstone.
    
    Some questions about whether US GP will happen because of various
    corporate travel bans. (A friend informs me that on Jan 15, British
    Airways sold only 32 tickets in the whole of N America, and one of last
    weeks Concorde flights has just 4 passengers!)
    
    With McHonda yet to appear, it looks like we should be in for some real
    battles this year, unless the V12 Honda just blows everybody away.
    
    Paul

--- Modena Team / Lamborghini Engineering in trouble

Modena Team is reported having financial trouble. Boss Carlo Patrucco did
not manage to settle the 7M$ invoice sent earlier by Lamborghini Engineering
for supplying 1991 engines to the team. Even a bank guarantee could not be
obtained. Modena Team manager Canetoli just left.

This puts Lamborghini Engineering in deep trouble since they were planning
to run the 1991 budget on those 7M$.

Lamborghini Eng actually got rid of Larrousse last year because of the 7M$
bill, that Larrousse had trouble getting from japanese ESPO. The question is 
where to find the missing 7M$.

- Larrousse just reported that they have been recently approached by 
  Lamborghini management. Would you like to use Lamborghini engines ?
  Official answer is ... see figure 1

- Lotus will probably start the season with free Lambo engines

- In case Lamborghini Engineering have shut the F1 dept Ligier might get the
  Renault V10 one year earlier than planned (Ligier is reported smiling).

Reality ? Rumours ? 

    McLaren have signed Michael Andretti on a testing contract for 1991.
    His first outing will be at Estoril next week. This is seen by the
    press as a good way of settling him into the team, and also as a
    possible precursor to an Indy Car return for McLaren.
    
    Question is - who leaves in '92 to make way for Michael?
    
    Paul

I thought it was reported that Mike A was the reserve driver the McLaren?  Is
he also a test driver?

Dave

    The reports I saw were as a test driver. The contract is arranged to
    let him continue with a full Indy Car program so he can't be reserve
    driver. I guess Palmer and McNish still fill that role.
    
    Paul

I heard some snippets on the news last night about scoring in the championship
this season - anyone got more details?

Apparently, there will be 10 points for a victory.
14 of the 16 events will count towards the championship instead of 11.

Cheers

Steve

    re .101      yep, heard exactly the same news. I did not even know this was
                 being discussed. Balestre + FIA = democracy.

This is a compromise proposal that still has to be agreed by committee.

/Dave.

    A new scoring scheme has been under consideration since Japan - both in
    how many events would be counted as well as changing the number of
    points per position.  Earlier, it was reported that FIA was considering
    extending the points position to 10th place (a la CART) and counting
    all 16 events.  That appeared in AUTOWEEK in November, I believe.  This
    is the first I've heard of this scheme.
    
    Paul
    

    
    Ceefax said it had been agreed by the committee yesterday afternoon as
    does today's Torygraph.
    
    Nev.

    1st = 10 pts
    2nd =  6 pts
      the remainder as before.
    
    Two lowest set of points dropped in excess of fourteen results.
    
    I think that scoring for the first 10 in a Motorcycle style would
    be the best + a point each for pole, fastest lap and longest lead.
    
    If you hate Senna you'll hate this.

       In this Months R&D they showed a photo of the new Jordan 911.
    Nice looking car in some ways simmilar to the Tyrrell with the 
    nose up in the air.  However, I thought I read something about 
    such things possibly not being allowed by 91 rule changes.
    
       Any answers on this one.  It still was nice to look at but is
    it quick and does EJR have any sponsorship as yet ?
    
                                                       Mark
    

    .109
    
>>    It still was nice to look at but is it quick
    
    In the reports I've read about the EJR, its not going to be a pushover !!
    
>>    does EJR have any sponsorship as yet ?
    
    7up are currently the only sponsors.
    
    
    Shaun.

    
    7 UP (actually Pepsi?) are a big-money sponsor and more than capable of 
    being a sole sponsor for a front running team. The EJR 191 (not the 911
    since Porsche complained) also bears BP and some Italian Yuppy-Coat
    manufacturer's logos.
    
    Mark

           Thanks, for the info, Road & Track has mostly old news compared
    to what I read here. The picture of the car they had was black and 
    only had EJR logo's on it.  Jordan seems like a force Perhaps to be
    recond with from what I have read about his efforts in f3000 etc., it
    would be nice to see a new team do something, anything.
    
           Mark
    

    Ligier rolled out their new Lambo V12 powered JS35. Could not do
    anything since Magny-Cours is covered with snow. No dramatic change in
    shape and color (money still comes from ELF, GITANES and LOTO).
    
    Scuderia Italia has been testing their new JUDD V10 powered BMS. Lots 
    of mechanical problems. Could not perform any fast laps.
    
    Bertrand Gachot was heard saying that "Schneider should normally drive
    the 2nd EJR".
    
    What color for Lotus ? initial presentation in December was done with a
    BRG car, 2nd presentation was yellow (try to get Camel back ?), what
    next ? 

    Last two seats have now been filled -
    
    de Cesaris is at Jordan, and Johansson is back with AGS. Coloni have
    opted for a single entry, as have Osella. Lotus have confirmed Donnelly
    as their No 1, with the aim of him driving from San Marino. It is
    likely that Herbert will continue to sub for the first two races.
    
    One interesting side issue - Msr Prost has opted for No27. A rather
    different type of driver from the past few years - from memory -
    
    1990	Senna	
    1989	Mansell	
    1988	Berger	
    1987	Johansson (?)
    
    Can anybody fill in the gaps back to Gilles?
    
    Paul 

    
    On some things, John I disagree with you, but on your analysis of
    Gilles Villeneuve I concur 100%!
    
    Mark
    
    PS I tip Mansell, Williams and Renault to win, with maybe Andrea De
    Cesaris confounding his critics and finally getting a win and a better
    reputation (Ok, so it's unlikely, but... :^))
    
    

    
    First race is March 10th Pheonix.
    
    I tip a Tyrell win for Pheonix by a first timer Modena.
    
    Mansell will get Royally peed off by lack of new car until Monaco, but
    does better things with it than Patrese or Boutsen ever did.
    
    Then when new car comes along real problems with reliability (its 1989
    again) but when it does well he wins.
    
    De-Cesaris does quite well in the Jordan a few seconds/thirds in middle
    part of season.
    
    Piquet keeps astounding the critics in the Garish Beneton (new colour
    scheme) seconds and thirds all the way.
    
    Lotus move into the pre-qualify group, wither and die.
    
    Alesi is just too hard on the Ferrari and throws it off several times.
    
    Prost quietly cruses around to several victories.
    
    Senna continues to hound around, producing spectacular poles, but the
    Mclaren just isn't up to it anymore except on Power circuits (can we
    strike Silverstone from this list now?)
    
    Berger continues to lie in Senna's shade.
    
    March have real problems with the Ilmor V10 until the second half of
    the season.
    
    Minardi V12 starts to out-do the Ferrari in the later half of the
    season.
    
    Hakkinen doesn't make a ripple.
    
    
    Top team at the end of the year .... head on block time .... Tyrell.
    
    Champion of 1991 ...... Piquet ( I hate to say this I would love it to
    be our Nige's year!)
    
    
    Steve

    Re -3
    
    Alan Jones may have raced in No27, but surely you have to agree that
    Villeneuve "deified" it. He was killed driving that number, and hence
    the mystique associated with it. What other drivers have a grid
    position painted in their honour as Villeneuve does at Imola?
    
    I won't bore you all with me contradictory view of Gilles but will
    point you at peole like Nigel Roebuck who rate him as one of the
    highest. Anybody who could make brutes like the early turbo Ferrari's
    run at the front had to be good, look at what happened to Scheckter
    after his championship year (a year which Gilles could have taken the
    title if he hadn't dutifully followed team orders unlike Pironi in
    their last race)
    
    
    Anyway............
    
    
    1991 -
    
    Ferrari to do well for the first couple of races with McLaren,
    Williams, benetton and Tyrrell coming good later as they get their new
    cars sorted. Leyton House (they haven't been March for a year or so) to
    seriously challenge after the first third when the Ilmor comes on
    strong.
    
    Gachot to do quite well for Jordan with de Cesaris to pick up some
    points and get them out of pre-qual at mid season.
    
    Lotus to get back to basics and get more results, but unlikely to be
    back at the top until they get a decent engine. Hakinnen to prove very
    fast but ragged, Donnelly to ease back in and secure a quality ride in
    '92.
    
    Dallara to have a disasterous season with the new Judd which will be as
    unreliable as the V8.
    
    Winners to come from
    
    Prost, Alesi, Senna, Berger, Mansell, Piquet, Moreno, Modena, Capelli
    and maybe Brundle if the Yamaha proves reasonable.
    
    Very close title race with Senna sneaking it from Mansell. Prost will
    fade under the heat of Alesi's increasing favouritism at Maranello.
    
    Probably totally wrong but who cares - roll on Phoenix.
    
    Paul

    Rule changes sanctioned by FISA
    
    ALL SIXTEEN races are to count for the title this season, with one
    extra point for first - points now are 10-6-4-3-2-1.
    
    Larrouse have been stripped of all constructors cup points from lasy
    season. Apparently, their entry stated that they built their chassis,
    when in fact it was built by Lola. Does anyone know if this changes
    pre-qualifying? At the moment its-
    
    AGS
    Modena
    Jordan
    Osella
    BMS-Dallara
    
    I think?
    
    Also - no news on the spare car ban. Anybody heard?
    
    Paul

It would be interesting to see the last few seasons' results.

Colin.

        I had a quick look at 1990 last night, and the only change 
        would be that Piquet was third on his own rather than jointly 
        with Berger. Prost would be one point closer to Senna.
        
        Paul

        Any noters out there from Italy or there about? We are off to 
        Italy in September on holiday and will be taking in the GP at 
        Monza. However, we are having a problem getting tickets as 
        none of the UK travel companies have tickets for people not on 
        their pre-arranged tours.
        
        I have tried ringing a number for the circuit but get no 
        answer.
        
        Can anyone help or suggest anything? Maybe faxing me a booking 
        form? Leyton House are trying too, but they can't get Leyton 
        House Italia (run by Capelli Snr) to answer the phone either!
        
        Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.
        
        Paul
        
        ps - I'm not sure this trip is wise since my other half is a 
        major Ayrton fan!!!

>    Larrouse have been stripped of all constructors cup points from lasy
>    season. Apparently, their entry stated that they built their chassis,
>    when in fact it was built by Lola. Does anyone know if this changes
>    pre-qualifying? At the moment its-
    
	I read something about this in the paper, and the interpretation
	was somewhat different. It appears that Larrouse have entered
	in such a way as to appear to be a new team hence the points
	that the Larrouse sponsored Lola team gained last year cannot be 
	carried forward for pre-qualifying purposes. The results from last 
	season stand as they were but Larrouse will have to pre-qualify.

	-John

        I was under the impression that Larrouse would be using Lola 
        chassis again this year, as their in house one wouldn't be 
        ready. Either way, they seem destined to be back in pre-qual.
        
        Paul

    This Larrousse/Lola affair is frustrating. Lola is really building the
    various components that have been designed by Larrousse (Gerard
    Ducarouge and team). So, in fact, Lola is truely building most of the
    car without having designed it .... In a sense Larrousse deserves some
    of the points.

    Paul,
    
    	your reply of .118, wasn't it you who said earlier - watch out for
    Mclaren with the new 12.......what has happened why do they only come
    good later in the season? 8-).
    
    Methinks Ferarri will walk it this season and in spades!
    Senna will also leave or announce his intention to leave McLaren.
    
    
    		George Frost

    re .120,121 etc.
    
    Had the new points system been in place for the last 6 seasons, Prost
    would would now be world champ 5 times and Senna would have lost one of
    his to Prost.
    
    	George Frost

        George,
        
        You are far too sharp for me! What I meant was that the 
        McLaren was a new car whereas Ferrari will be using an updated 
        model. Equally, Benetton may struggle at first 'til Barnard's 
        supposedly radical car comes out for Imola.
        
        As for Senna - McLaren have an interesting dilemma with 
        potentially Senna, Berger, McNish and Andretti wanting '92 
        drives. Who would you choose? 
        
        George - don't answer that!!!
        
        Anyway, I stand by my prediction that Prost will get the 
        Mansell mechanical treatment if Alesi gets off to a flyer, and 
        that Ferrari are still not capable of fielding two competitive 
        cars at the same time.
        
        Senna will win again.
        
        Paul
        
        (but Capelli would be a good second choice or maybe "our 
        Nige")

	In the however many years Mansell has been racing, it has
	always been the case that his car proved far less reliable
	than the other one. Tis no coincidence.

	Comparing drivers is always difficult, unless they happen
	to be in the same car. We've had Senna-Prost (evens), Prost-
	Lauda (Prost - just), Prost-Mansell (Prost Easily), and
	Mansell-Piquet (Piquet-just). But Mansell was also blown
	away by Elio De-Angelis who was perhaps a much better driver
	than the record suggests.

	-John

    John,
    
    	happy to recognise an almost similar opinion. However I still think 
    Prost took Senna under his wing, gave him professional breaks (car 
    set-up etc.) when Senna needed it.
    
    Senna will need the breaks this year......last year he was running on the
    leftovers of the Prost season...... but he wont get them (either from
    the team or Berger).
    
    That for me leaves Prost as the outstanding F1 competitor in the last
    4 seasons.
    

Note .124  If you want to go through the U.S. to get tickets, I can give
you a phone# to call. The company name is Grand Prix Tours. P.O. Box 11896
2482 Newport Blvd., #3,  Costa Mesa, California  92627. Phone# (714) 646-0327
Telex # 4947185 GDPX-U1  FAX# (714) 646-0361 The catalog that I have has 
ticket prices US $ 250.00   If you want I can send you the Catalog that has
all the different Grand Prix Tours. Send me a message with your mailstop and
it'll be on the way.


                Barry

  A number of teams have hired a test driver (the guy who does the routine 
  testing of new engines, new tyres, new brakes, new gearboxes, ... but
  never races).

  Here is my current version of the list:

  Ferrari	Andrea Montermini
  Minardi	Andrea Montermini (yes, same as above)
  McLaren	Allan McNish (early part of the year), Michael Andretti
  Williams	Damon Hill
  Lotus		David Brabham
  Lamborghini	Marco Apicella
  Jordan	Bernd Schneider
  Ligier	Emmanuel Collard

    re .134
    
    Patrick,
     - Thanks for the list of teams/cars/drivers
     - Thanks for the impressions of the F40 drive.
     - Because of the type of car you drive, I presume you get down
       to P3 in Cannes every so often. How about a an entry in *Seen in
       Passing* for some of the beauties there?
    
    russ

    Yea, I stop by every so often to take my Testa Rossa in for servicing.
    
    Actually, it's a friend's biturbo I run taxi service for. I can't
    identify some of the things there precisely enough, but I'll try a note
    or two anyway.
    
    russ

	I think I welcome the new scoring system, but also sense an
	element of compromise in it.

	The reason that only so many races used to count was I imagine
	to -
	
	a. Make an allowance for the vagaries of mechanical reliability
	and accidents.

	b. Ensure that the championship would run for as long as possible
	before being decided, to avoid having non-critical races at end
	with reduced spectator appeal.

	Now however, the feeling is that something has to be done to
	persuade some drivers that finishing is a high priority, following
	disputes of the recent years. Also if the rules are to enforced
	effectively then a race ban needs to mean something but often
	in the past it didn't. To placate those who rate winning very 
	highly there's an extra point to compensate. Also the 'dead'
	races at the end of season syndrome isn't as marked now as once
	it might have been. For my part I thought the Oz GP last year
	the best of the season, and it took place after the championship
	had been decided.

	-John

	One odd feature of the 'Larrouse' affair is that they're
	a French team aren't they, JMB is French, and JMB is Fisa
	and always has been thought to have a home bias.

	-John

    It was noted in the US RACERS notes file that there is a rumor going
    around that McLaren will drop Honda in favor of Mercedes.  Anyone have
    more to add?
    
    Likewise, another rumor has it that the Galles Team (CART Indy Cars) is
    designing an F1 car not an Indy car in England for Al Unser, jr.  Any
    more comment or info?
    
    A small aside, the publicity picture of the new Jordan 911 in 7Up
    livery looks very nice.  A lot like a cross between a Tyrrell and a
    Benetton, but neat and clean.  I'd love to see them do well.
    
    Paul
    

	Does anyone know what colours(s) the Bennetton will parade
	in this season. This information is crucial in deciding
	whether they have a chance of the WC.

	-John

    Re - 1
    
    The cars are yellow, blue and green. These are also Brazil's national
    colours! They are not all yellow like the Lotus when it was a Camel
    car.
    
    On the subject of Lotus, they are having Julian Baily as their stand in
    until Donnelly is fit. They are also being sponsored by Tamiya, so
    expect a model of the 102B very soon!
    
    Ferrari have signed a deal with Pioneer to Minardi's annoyance as they
    were after the money. Pioneer will develop the car to pits radio, and
    fit CD players to the F642s so that Alain and Jean will be calm in the
    cockpit. "I love the sound of Breaking Glass" , anything with Lambada
    in it, and any Spinners records will not be played.
    
    Larrouse are still hanging in the balance. FOCA have said that they can
    have the travel benefits but their sponsors are unhappy about
    pre-qualifying. They met JMB last week and FISA are supposedly thinking
    about the decision again.
    
    Tyrrell have announced a deal with Braun for two years, and Branham
    have signed up about 10 Japanese sponsors.
    
    Anyone else reckon that fag money might finally be "filtering" away?
    
    Paul 

    Yes Paul,
    
    	and I still feel that the McLaren/Honda relationship is taking a
    hard knock because of the vagaries of the driver situation.
    
    Ayrton Senna really was not making a point last season when he went
    wandering (somewhat).
    
    The more (relatively small) sponsors that each team has makes the money
    harder to come by at the enf of each season. What all strive for is a
    single large sponsor to carry most of the cost.
    And the continuation of the three or four biggies this year will in my 
    opinion will be the big unknown.
    
    		George F 

    Larrousse and FISA have announced that the points gained by Team
    Larrousse do really belong to Lola Cars but Larrousse will eventually
    NOT have to pre qualify. Larrousse drivers Bernard and Suzuki scored 11
    points in the 1990 F1 championship. Scuderai Italia will have to
    prequalify. 

    Patrick,
    
    I thought BMS were OK for racing full time?
    
    Isn't the list as follows?
    
    Pre-Qual
    
    Modena
    EJR
    AGS
    Fomet
    Coloni
    
    Full Time 'til Ricard
    
    McLaren	Ferrari		Benetton
    Williams	Tyrrell		Brabham
    Lotus	L/House		Footwork
    Minardi	Ligier		Larrousse
    Scud Italia
    
    It is still 13 teams that get guaranteed slots isn't it?
    
    Any bets on who'll drop out to make way for EJR and Modena? Lotus and
    Footwork must be at risk.
    
    Paul
    

    I agree with you Paul. I had read that because of the Larrousse affair
    2 teams would benefit:
    
    - Scuderia Italia would escape prequals
    - Ligier would get FOCA treatment (transportation costs)
    
    The new revised Larrousse case means
    
    - Scuderia Italia remains in prequals. Larrousse is prequalified
    - Larrousse looses the FOCA treatment (Ligier : "thank you very much
                                           FISA, sorry Gerard") 

    Patrick,
    
    I'm not convinced! I am sure that 13 teams get in as standard, and that
    Scuderia Italia are the lowliest of those. All the interviews with Fast
    eddie say 8 cars will be prequalifying which adds up to AGS, Modena,
    EJR, and one each from Coloni and Fomet.
    
    Also, I read that Bernie E had agreed to extend FOCA travel cash to
    Larrousse anyway?
    
    Still, it'll all come out in the wash at the weekend, when Senna wins
    again and Alesi blows off Prost in qualifying, only to spin out at Turn
    1 with Berger ;-) Eh George??
    
    Paul

    What's going on at Lotus ?  I've just read in VNS that Julian Bailey
    (not Johnny Herbert) will stand for Martin Donnelly.

	Just read an article on the new Williams FW14. Essential points
	are - 

	* Six speed, hydraulically operated, steering wheel controlled
	semi-automatic gearbox.

	*Variation on the Tyrrell front. Has forward extended undertray
	but not a high front. The nose of the car on the underside
	swoops down to a normal low front, still allowing extra airflow
	onto the undertray.

	*Smaller than previous car.

	Looks very nice, gone are the front suspension protruberances
	of the FW13. Serious contender if they don't have development
	troubles. Don't know if it's at the firts race though.

	-John

    I see no real forecasts for 91 in here this season. Perhaps Colin's
    competition prompted us more than we realised.
    
    Still, I think it is going to be the year of the 'reliability' this
    time.
    Who has been running for almost a full season without major structural,
    aerodynamic, engine, or shoe changes?  you guessed it my favourites
    for driver and manufacturers titles. Prost and Ferarri.
    
    On a flier I might even go so far as to say Alesi brings home the rest
    of the bacon.
    
    		George Frost

    while on Williams, read an interview of Patrick Head basically saying
    
    "the FW13 was not REALLY bad. We had tried a number of settings and
    decided for a couple of options during the whole season. At the end of
    1990, Nigel came and reset the whole thing, and ... gained several
    seconds per lap compared to Boutsen/Patrese"

Group 1 -  Title winners

	McLaren-Honda
	Ferrari-Ferrari

Group 2 -  GP winners (in addition to the above)

	Williams-Renault
	Benetton-Ford HB
	Tyrrell-Honda

Group 3 -  front runners

	Leyton House-Ilmor
	Modena Team (Lamborghini-Lamborghini)
	Minardi-Ferrari

Group 4 -  Back runners

	Scud Italia (Dallara-Judd V10)
	Ligier-Lamborghini
	Jordan-Ford HB
	Footwork-Porsche
	Brabham-Yamaha

Group n -  Zero chance

	Larrousse-Ford Hart
	Fomet-Ford
	AGS-Ford
	Coloni-Ford
	Lotus-Judd V8

    	MN this morning has pictures of the new MP4/6 being shaken down by
    Senna and Berger at Estoril last week (Henri Durand's influence has made 
    it look very much like the Ferrari he worked on last year), the Braun
    Tyrrell Honda 020 (in it's new black, white and red livery) and the new
    Brabham, also in black, white and red.
    
    	All in all, it should be an exciting season with a couple of new
    teams, new names in old teams, some revivals and the usual dispair!
    
    	I'm going to emulate Patrick and stick my neck out :
    
    Overall championship winners : Alain Prost and Ferrari
    
    G.P. winners :	Mansell - Williams
    			Senna and Berger - McLaren
    			Alesi - Ferrari
    			Piquet - Benetton
    
    Front runners :	Modena's Tyrrell
    			The Leyton House duo
    			Martini's Minardi
    			The Larrousse Lolos
    
    Back runners :	Footwork Porsche
    			Lotus
    			Jordan
    			Ligier
    			Brabham
    
    No points at all :	Fondmetal Osella
    			AGS
    			Dallara
    			Coloni
    			Lambo Formula
    
    
    	Now you can see why I stopped doing the competition!!!!!
    
    Colin

    I see three sets of predictions......come on you lot, race day is
    Sunday!
    
    On that score, who wins Sunday? 
    
    		George Frost 

    
    Phoenix is round the streets right?
    
    Ok, given that, I reckon it'll be Jean Alesi in a Tifosi-heart-winning
    debut victory.
    
    Mark
    
    

    Yup, I reckon so too.   He did VERY well last year
    
    
    		George Frost

	MN quotes Senna as saying "They didn't want me to drive for Ferrari
	so they build me one instead." referring to the new car.

	Come on chaps it's just too easy to say that this is a top team,
	this is a middle team and this is a bottom team! Anyone can do
	that including me.

	How about actually trying to say who's going to win. Here's my hack.

	News, opinion.
	--------------

	McLaren have to be mentioned first. New car with new engine could
	pulverise the opposition but then again it might not. The new V12
	may have more HP but it'll be at the expense of extra fuel and
	less driveability. Not necessarily the world beater it was cracked 
	up to be. The new chassis, now brought up to date with latest 
	suspension technology will eventually be better. Seems they've a 
	choice of 4 cars to race, old and new chassis with V10/V12 engines.
	Interesting to see which they choose.

	Ferrari will run a developed version of last years car. Bound to
	be competitive, early in the season in particular.

	Williams also have old and new cars available, with or without
	the new gearbox and may be hedging their bets a little.

	Benneton start with the old car, but have the new Barnard designed
	car coming later, when it's ready.

	Tyrrell have concentrated on putting the Honda V10 into their
	old car with as little change as possible to the configuration.
	Why change it indeed.

	EJR may be complete newcomers but they may also spring some
	surprises but not to the extent of threatening the top lads.

	Who'll win.?

	Phoenix will tell an awful lot. Benneton and Tyrrell are both
	on Pirelli tyres which will either make or break their challenge.
	Pirelli have never bettered Goodyear before in many years of
	trying, but Goodyear are not impregnable either. When Michelin
	took part they produced the best tyres. If these two teams
	are either way out in front or way behind at the first race
	the whole balance changes. If Barnard thinks Pirelli a good bet
	then I think they must be too.

	Similarly if McLaren runs it's new car effectively then it'll be
	a red and white monopoly all over again. The other leading teams
	fall somewhere in between.

	Drivers.

	No change expected at McLaren, Prost will show Alesi the merits
	of going quick and finishing. Alesi will have many DNFs, some
	spectacular. Mansell will show in bursts at Williams but finish
	badly, Patrese might even score more points under the new system.
	Piquet will be perked up, fast and consistent, Moreno much more
	erratic with occasional glory. (he can be very quick). Tyrrell
	only have one driver but perhaps a good one heavily motivated by
	the chance of a win. Hope he keeps it on the island.

	It's the most open looking season for years, and there's a lot of 
	interest in the rest of the field too. I take McLaren and Williams
	to suffer teething troubles, Ferrari to show well early on and
	Benetton later in the season and I'll go for -

		1. Piquet
		2. Prost
		3. Senna
		4. Modena
		5. Mansell
		6. Berger

	Notice how I've actually given Mansell a place!. I do these
	predictions every year and always get it wrong but there's always 
	the first time!.

	The first race is crucial, shame it has to be on such a duff
	circuit and not on normal tele live.

	-John

    
    I thought the Ferrari looked heavy and ungainly last year on the
    Pheonix circuit (true there have been changes to the circuit .... but
    enough?)
    
    Call me an eternal optomist but I would put an each way bet on Modena's
    Tyrell doing VERY well at Pheonix!
    
    I think I will go for the same result as last year (in makes at least)
    1: Mclaren, 2: Tyrell  (What a day for Honda!)
    
    Senna, Modena.
    
    That said, there will be a Ferrari 1-2 now!
    
    Steve (woken up from his cave)

       A wild pick Capplli (SP.) all front runners take each other out Ivan 
    takes the top spot.
    
    Mark
    

    Well it has been some time since I have gazed into the crystal ball,
    however it does show a bright red car coming in 1st and 4th :-).  Senna,
    and Mansell coming 3rd and 2nd, with Berger not finishing due to
    rapping his car around ...? sorry the crytal ball does not say why.
    
    It certainly will be nice to see everyone at each other for another
    season....the racing should be good to.  ;-)
    
    regards,
    FCGT
    
     

    
    For the season...
    
    I think that the numbers of races that will count towards the championship
    is going to play as big a part in deciding the eventual winner
    as any other driver/car considerations. Driving to finish, is likely
    to be as important as driving to win.

    Teams making big changes this season are likely to lose out in the
    reliability stakes, even if, when they do run well they win. For
    this reason I think Mclaren may have its worst season for some time.
    
    That said, not all changes are going to be bad and I think John
    Barnard will have a positive effect on Benetton. He couldn't design
    a bad car could he?

    Brabham, with lots of Yamaha money, may prove to be a bit of a suprise
    later in the season. Brundle is a driver who seems to 'finish' races
    and this could pick him up a few points.
    
    And Williams and Mansell? Who knows? Do they?
    
    Drivers :
    
    1. Prost
    2. Piquet
    3. Alesi
    4. Senna
    5. Mansell
    6. Brundle
    
    Constructors:
    1. Ferrari
    2. Benneton
    3. Williams
    4. McLaren
    
    
    
        And for Phoenix : Piquet

        

    Better late than never......
    
    Season as a whole --
    
    In for the title:
    
    Senna
    Prost
    Mansell
    Piquet
    
    On the Upswing
    
    Modena
    Moreno
    Brundle
    Capelli
    
    On the downswing
    
    Berger
    Boutsen
    
    The X Factor
    
    Alesi & Ferrari politics
    
    Top Teams
    
    McLaren
    Ferrari
    Williams
    Benetton
    
    Best of the rest
    
    Tyrrell
    L/House
    Brabham
    
    Going Down
    
    Larousse
    Ligier
    Minardi
    
    Revelations of the Year
    
    Pirelli tyres
    EJR 
    Ilmor V10
    
    And now Phoenix....
    
    1 Senna
    2 Mansell
    3 Alesi
    4 Piquet
    5 Modena
    6 Hakkinen
    
    And for the title.....
    
    
    Ayrton Senna
    
    
    Paul

    OK, OK a 'full' throw of the dice:
    
    6 most competitive drivers;		Senna
    	  				Alesi
      					Prost
    					Boutsen
    					Mansell
    					Piquet		(that was easy)
    			
    			  and then - 	Berger
    					Morbidelli	
    
                                                
    6 most competitive cars;		Williams
    	    				Ferrari
    					Tyrrell
    					McLaren
    					Minardi
    			 		Benetton	(chancy)
    			
    			  and then - 	Minardi
    					Ligier	
    
    Drivers championship;	      1	Prost
    				      2	Senna  |   	(difficult
    				      3	Piquet |         choice here)
    				      4	Alesi
    				      5 Morbidelli |    (here too)
    				      6 Mansell	   |
    
    
    Constructors championship;		Ferrarri
    					Williams
    					McLaren
    					Minardi
    					Benetton
    					Tyrrell
    
    
    		George Frost
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			

    Forgot,
    
    	Phoenix - Alesi
    		  Prost ...... he won't want to get past on the road
    		  Modena
    		  Senna
    		  Mansell
    
    		George Frost
    		

Sunday prediction:

	Dry race:

		Piquet
		Prost
		Senna
		Alesi
		Moreno
		Patrese

	Wet race:

		Mansell
		Senna
		Piquet
		Suzuki
		Hakkinen
		Nakajima

/Dave.

    Re: .-1.....
    
    You didn't predict which weather it would be! (-:

    For Sunday, my bets are on Mansell, Prost, Alesi, Modena, Patrese,
    Piquet in that order. 
    
    Colin 

    
    Sounds good Colin but I think it may look more like,
    
    Prost
    Piquet
    Senna
    Modena
    Mansell
    Patrese
    
    Think its going to be very open this year.
    
    Cheers Kev..

Why is no-one counting on McLaren this season ? Is it just because they've been
so successful that you hope they're not this year, or do you know something
I don't...

Ferrari/Alesi wins at Phoenix !

    Perhaps because their chassis isn't the greatest and the engine is
    not 'greatly improved'.  Other teams seem to have LOTS of changes.
    Between these other teams in the past season, they have had plenty
    of strong points, compared to McMotors.  It all depends on whether
    the changes are for the better, or for the worse...
    
    Ferrari/Alesi - Good Luck, but I doubt it
    
    J.R.

    My feeling about McLaren is that, professional team though they are, it
    is only Senna's brilliance that kept them up at the top last year.
    Johanssen really didn't shine in the McLaren-TAG back in '87 and Berger
    looks plain ordinary. It's only Senna and Prost that have made the
    beast fly.
    
    I agree with "Rut-The-Nut" that McLaren's pwer advantage has been
    steadily eroded to the point that the chassis deficiencies really do
    show up most of the time. I believe there are a number of teams (named
    a few notes back) who are on near-equal terms now and with drivers of
    the calibre of Alesi and Modena could well rock some of the
    establishment.
    
    Finally, McLaren have had an incredible run at the top ; they have
    taken the Constructors' Championship three years in a row (Williams
    last bagged it in 1987) and, since 1987, have always been "the team to
    beat". It's hard to get to the top but even harder to stay there. I
    think they are in for a hiding this year....
    
    Roll on Sunday!! BTW, I heard that EuroSport (I think) are covering all
    the G.P.s live this year. This weekend, they are showing the full G.P. 
    from about 8.30 in the evening. Beats edited highlights at 11:00!!
    
    Colin

    >> Beats edited highlights at 11:00!!
    
    Or even 11.35!!! :^(
    
    Mark Who_hasn't_got_a_satellite_dish

    As well as Eurosport (who have lost the thinking man's Murray Walker -
    Andrew Marriott for this year) the BSkyB Sports Channel are also
    covering the races in full. The US time zone onee will be covered live
    andthe European ones will be shown in full on a tape delay in the early
    evening. They are working on the rationale that a lot of people haven't
    got time to watch the whole race live at Sunday lunchtime, but also
    don't want just 40 mins highlights. Both Eurosport and BSB are planning
    extended highlights and behind the scenes stuff for the Thursday after
    the race.
    
    Thank heaven for Croydon Cable! 11 quid a mnoth for all this!!
    
    Paul

As far as I remember, Eurosport say all the F1 races will be live this 
season. The first practice reports from Pheonix are tonight, late.

Also BBC 2 are re-showing the F1-500 documentary tonight at about 6:50 or
thereabouts...I'm pleased, as I missed it last time.

Peter.

    
    Re .178
    
    >> Mark Who_hasn't_got_a_satellite_dish
    
    But I know a man who does! :^)
    
    Mark

    yep, this weekends race is live on eurosport and I beleive if it is the
    same format as last year so is practice of friday and saturday.
    
    
    	Garry_a_man_who_does_have_saterlite_tv
    

	Some thoughts on the lesser teams. After putting in some
	impressive performances, particularly in practice, Minardi
	obtained the plum deal of a supply of Ferarri engines for
	this year. However they don't seem to be getting very far
	since in testing the car is slow, perhaps worse than last 
	years.

	Leyton House got quite a long straw too and now have the
	Ilmor V10, from the company that dominates CART racing. This
	is going OK but not staggeringly so, but there must be potential.

	Dallara (Scud Italia) got a much shorter straw, but not the
	shortest, when they got the new Judd V10, from the company
	with the 'not quite good enough, for long enough tag'. In testing
	they've been going like rockets and the Judd is being compared
	favourably with the Honda!. Will it last the race though?. Topsy
	turvy world F1.

	Lotus got the shortest straw of all, but at least they've only
	one way to go now and they've got a nice colour scheme.

	On TV. If there's anyone out there who has satellite TV and
	would be willing to video the whole race, I'd be very pleased
	to see it, partly to view the race, and partly to see what the
	coverage is like. Reading-Wokingham area best, or Blazingsmoke
	office best. 7-768-5259 if possible.

	John_whos_only_seen_sky_in_a_hotel
	

	Oh yes and my choice for Pheonix is the long shot Modena.

	-John

    Interesting reading here from the last 30 odd replies;
    
    Odds on favourite to win at Phoenix	-	Alesi 	with 6 votes
    						Senna	with 4 votes
    						Mansell with 3 votes
    						Prost	with 2 votes
    						Piquet	with 2 votes
    						Capelli with 1 vote.
    
    
    Alesi must be there for his performance at Phoenix last year in the
    Tyrrell (which handles well on road circuits), and the fact that
    Ferrari must be considered todays top car (until Phoenix that is!).
    
    
    		George Frost
    

    Nobody's posted the result!!! Here am I am, in the USA, the GP's
    finished by now, but I don't know the result. The US GP *wasn't* on US
    TV live. Its on tonight at 8:30, sigh...
    
    And all I knew about practice was that Senna had pole.
    
    Colin.

    Here in France, Channel 5 relayed ESPN live. How come you did not get
    it ?
    
    Results: as planned Master Senna did his own race. The 2nd race was
    eventually won by Prost. Lots of accident and engine/gearbox failures.
    
    1. Senna
    2. Prost
    3. Piquet (3 world champions + 8 titles ...)
    4. Modena
    
    Both Williams stopped (Mansell gearbox, Patrese in the wall).

    	I didn't stay up to watch the race but video'd the highlights and
    will watch them tonight. However, I did sneak a look at the results
    (!!) and saw a little bit of the action while gulping my coffee.
    
    	At lap 44, the order was Senna (with a huge lead), Prost, Patrese,
    Piquet, MOreno, Modena. Mansell was already out (his car was "parked"
    halfway down the start/finish straight part hidden by the barriers -
    looks like it may have been a start-line punt into the hard metal
    stuff??), Alesi had just dived into the pits (think he had just been
    taken for 3rd by Patrese before he pitted) for new tyres. There seemed
    to be quite a bit of carnage but Alboretto's Footwork and Capelli's
    L.H. both seemed to stop with mechanical failures. 
    
    	The lap after Alesi stopped, Prost came in for tyres elevating
    Patrese to 2nd place but he immediately spun (without damage) but got
    collected by Moreno, putting them both out!! Senna stopped for new
    tyres (presumably the Goodyear boys decided from Alesi's worn shoes
    that it would be touch and go) but easily retained his lead. Alesi
    later retired but I did not see whether it was mechanical or driver
    failure.
    
    	Prost was 2nd (about 30s behind, I guess), with Piquet 3rd, the two
    Tyrrells 4th and 5th (Modena ahead of Nakajima) and Suzuki's Lola 6th.
    Now there's one that nobody forecast!! Steve Freer thought Tyrrell
    would do well and most folks' ideas about the top runners proved
    justified. I look forward to seeing the highlights tonight and, if
    there are any video tapes going with the whole race on I'd love a view
    (my satelite contact couldn't get to record it this time for me!).
    
    Cheers,
    	Colin

    
    And Mansell immediately made a good impression by trying to run his
    (much faster) team-mate off the road (in fact he succeeded in putting
    him up the escape road). Well done, Nige that probably cost the
    Williams team a good second place.
    
    Mark (rapidly becoming a Mansell ex-fan.)

>    Piquet, MOreno, Modena. Mansell was already out (his car was "parked"
>    halfway down the start/finish straight part hidden by the barriers -
>    looks like it may have been a start-line punt into the hard metal
>    stuff??), Alesi had just dived into the pits (think he had just been
    
    Come on, let's keep it factual at this stage of the season!  It appears
    his gearbox went on lap 34, I really can't say whether Nigel had been
    rough with it or not (I didn't see the race).

 1. Senna	McLaren-Honda
 2. Prost	Ferrari-Ferrari		+ 16.322
 3. Piquet	Benetton-Ford		+ 17.376
 4. Modena	Tyrrell-Honda		+ 25.409
 5. Nakajima	Tyrrell-Honda		+ 1 lap
 6. Suzuki	Larrousse-Ford		+ 2 laps
 7. Larini	Lambo-Lambo		+ 3 laps
 8. Tarquini	AGS-Ford		+ 4 laps
 9. Martini	Minardi-Ferrari		+ 6 laps (DNF)
10. Gachot	Jordan-Ford		+ 6 laps (DNF)


Drivers				Manufacturers
----------------------------------------------------
Senna		10		McLaren		10
Prost	 	 6		Ferrari		 6
Piquet	 	 4		Tyrrell		 5
Modena		 3		Benetton	 4		
Nakajima 	 2		Larrousse	 1
Suzuki		 1

Well I watched it live on Eurosport and noted the incident (mentioned)
earlier between Patrese and Mansell. I thought Mansell was a complete prat.
Luckily Steve Nicholls? and John Watson seemed to agree.

I then watched the highlights on BBC2 to hear Murray 'I want to have Nigel
Mansells babies' Walker chastising Patrese's overtaking attempt.

Mark I have to agree, that Murray is really starting to get on my nerves. If it
wasn't for adverts on Eurosport every 10 mins I don't think I'd watch the Beeb
at all.

Ian. (Slighly annoyed at blatantly biased commentators)

I watched the race on EuroSport too. The adverts were a real pain. I
then found that if I switched to RTL when the adverts were on, I could
at least follow the action.

The in-car shots of Senna were really impressive, especially when he
was overtaking. I'm not a Senna fan (probably for the same reason that
I'm not a Seb Coe fan) but have to admit that he is rather a good driver.

Mark

Yawn Senna leads start to finish again...

Mansell drove a smooth fast race holding 3rd for quite a while, Patrese
nearly had him off in a stupid passing attepmt that him lock up before the turn in
point, Nigel saw him and made room, Patrese shot pass into the run off area
unable to make the bend despite the clear road! In fact Patrese drove very much
a Mansell type race with simular results. The marshals were the worst I've
ever seen, Mansell even had to push his own car off the circuit. Gachot did
well in his first race (and the cars!), breaking down just a few laps from
the end. Prost was his usual self, never really challenging Senna but never
out of it either. Only 9 cars finished.

/Dave.

    Colin,
    
    	I have the race on VHS if you want it. Give me a tinkle at 6191,
    
    Dtn 828 if you need it!
    
    		George Frost

    
    Why did Mansell push his car off the road? It seemed to be in a worse
    position once he moved it than it was when he stopped.
    
    The marshalls made a pig's-ear of moving Patrese's car, though.
    
    Mark

 I loved the bit where the marshalls tried to pull a car out of the way, but 
only managed to belly it out on the apex of the bend !!!!!! And that was after 
one of them had had a long chat with Gachot whiile the fire was blazing at the
back of the car.

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    I am full of admiration (yes even this early on in the season) for the
    McLaren chassis, the Honda motor, the team and of course Senna.
    
    I am not about to become a Senna fan, I have always admired his driving
    skills but this has to be exceptional.
    
    Exceptional also was the Ferrari. This is not their type of circuit and
    as Prost said afterwards in the interview, we were just not fast
    enough.
    Prost pleaded a problem with the car, Senna pleaded gearbox problems
    and as everyone noticed only 9 (or ten) cars of 26 finished.
    
    What augurs well for the season is the fact that the order was Senna
    (McLaren), Prost (Ferrari) and Piquet (Benneton) - the three world 
    champions (2,3,3 respectively) and incidentally the three who took 
    the money last season.
    
    Supports my view that it is the driver that makes the car.
    
    Good win for Senna - the first for a looooong time, I just hope the car
    holds together to make a real season of it.
    I have stopped reflecting on Mansell...just acknowledge that he is
    there.
    
    The Phoenix race organisation should be shot. Not one crane in sight,
    cars just left on the circuit....thats what took out Modena and nearly
    killed Patrese. Drivers having to push their own cars off the circuit
    and unbelievable though it sounds, the Marshall (were they ladies?)
    roping a disabled car and attempting to pull it toward the APEX of the
    corner where it was abandoned.
    Now I don't mind ladies doing this job but they have to be strong! not
    the pick of the Denver clan classies with blonde cutie curls poking out
    from under their 'in' race caps.
    
    Get rid of Phoenix. It was as bad this season as last year!
    
    
    		George Frost
    
    
    
    
     

    
    
    I think the marshalling should be looked into, it was disgusting...
    God only knows what would have happened if there had been another
    Berger/Ferrari type crash.....Doesn't bare thinking about.
    
    Patrese was very fast but I thought a little untidy, re the Mansell
    incident I think every one will have their own opinion especialy
    Frank! I didn't see anyone involved when Patrese finally went out?
    
    It was disappointing not to see both EJR's in the race, I heard De
    Cesaris had a problem finding his gears!
    
    Great race for Senna though,even though I did put him third!!!
    
    Cheers Kev.. 

    >> I didn't see anyone involved when Patrese finally went out?
    
    Err, the small matter of Moreno demolishing his car by driving over
    Patrese's nose (of his car! :^)) had quite an influence on Patrese's
    demise. His spin probably was due to trying too hard, he'd just taken
    2 seconds away from Senna in one lap.
    
    Mark

    We started watching on Eurosport and also got fed up with the ads which
    seemed twice as common as last year. We switched to The Sport's Channel
    about half way through and got the rest of the race uninterrupted and
    with pretty good commentary from Simon Taylor and Damon Hill.
    
    Superb performance from Senna, if he thinks the Honda is low on power
    at the moment God help the opposition later in the season! The
    Ferrari's looked breathless in comparison. However, the McHonda is
    clearly not as reliable as it once was judging by Berger's retirement.
    
    Mansell was a total d*ckhead to balk Patrese like that, clearly being
    No1 has gone to his head!
    
    As for the new teams -
    
    7Up Jordan (sounds obscene doesn't it!) did pretty well, but the best
    would appear to be Modena who got to the finish with Larini. The Yamaha
    looked to have potential as did the Ilmor. If I judged correctly,
    Capelli was around the top 10 when he went out. Considering their cars
    were sabotaged on friday night (brake lines and wiring connectors cut)
    they came back very well.
    
    One of the stars must have been Hakkinen. Qualifying 12th with a Judd
    V8 and a year old chassis is impressive. He also pressed on regardless
    of problems. Less impressive was the BMS Judd V10. The car was clearly
    quick, but at the moment it looks like the Judd package is still
    unreliable.
    
    Can I say a small word in defence of the marshalls? Last year they had
    plenty of cranes around. I think the cars that were shown went off
    where the cranes weren't. The two that stopped on an apex, Boutsen &
    Hakkinen were both gone within a lap. As for Patrese's very lucky
    escape, Damon Hill pointed out that the car was probably in gear and
    with an electronic box they couldn't get it into neutral. That corner
    should have been easy to get the car out of the way, but it was stuck
    in gear. Anyway, the flagging was excellent, the replay's show waved
    yellows two corners in front of the accident almost immediately.
    Finally, there are many excellent women marshalls around, so don't
    knock 'em.
    
    So, just like last year, it seems, Ferrai won the winter to lose the
    summer (so far).
    
    Roll on Brazil.
    
    Paul

    re: .201

    I suppose it depends if Patrese was already retired before Moreno
    demolished his car or not ...

    I don't think they showed the spin, but assume he made contact with
    the tyre wall. Depending on the damage (didn't look like there was
    much/any) I suppose he could have already decided to retire.

    
    re:199
    sorry all, Moreno not Modena (too close to home)
    
    Patrese was limping when he leapt out of the car and 'a commentator'
    mentioned that he had hurt his foot.	
    
    

    
    I don't think Patrese had hit the tyres, etc at all. He was just
    waiting for a gap in the traffic (I doubt he would have sat in the
    car if he had hit the wall). The first few cars had missed him, but
    Moreno didn't. I suppose in the heat of the moment it's difficult to
    work out why everyone in front is taking a strange line out of a
    corner.
    
    Patrese's car did look to be stuck in gear, but the Marshall's should 
    still have had the equipment to shift the car. Re Women marshall's, I
    agree they are as good as the men, in fact the women aren't usually 
    beer gutted sloth's unlike all too many male marshall's who don't look
    as though they could get to car before it was burnt to a cinder. I
    wouldn't like to trust some of the marshall's I see at circuits to get
    to me in time to save my life! :^(
    
    Mark

    Mark and Paul,
    
    	glad to see you coming to the defense of the women marshalls, that
    is also my position. What I am talking about was the apparently total
    lack of muscle where it was needed....cranes, winches or otherwise.
    
    As you both know the last resort in the kind of dilemma with Patrese's
    car is for four strongarm bodies to get the car off the circuit.
    Patrese's car stayed where it was for about 10 laps....the camera
    showed some very close misses.
    I know the car was in a dangerous position but the job was done -
    eventually, using strong arm tactics.
    The whole marshalling effort was a mess...a lot of ineffectual pussyfooting
    around (probably due to inexperience) by too few ineffective marshalls.
    That is what I am criticising.
    
    	George Frost
    
    

>>The whole marshalling effort was a mess...a lot of ineffectual pussyfooting
>> around (probably due to inexperience) by too few ineffective marshalls.
    
    I agree that was the way it looked. Maybe the apparent lack of
    enthusiasm for F1 in the States means that the experienced marshall's
    aren't bothered about officiating at GPs there. In Britain, marshall's
    fight for the opportunity to marshall at the GP and so you tend to
    get the better, more experienced, marshall's in action.
    
    Mark

    If you thought yesterday was bad you should have seen Jerez. Without
    being sexist (and remembering my previous comments) I have a nice pic
    of a lady marshall with her overalls neatly tied round her waist
    revealing a "charming" white t shirt, getting a great tan. Most of the
    marshalls in Spain seemed to be there for the pose value.
    
    As I said, the marshalls we saw last year in the US were generally
    pretty good, but remember they are used to recovering cars under yellow
    flag laps, that makes it an awful lot easier.
    
    We should count our lucky stars at the generally high standard in the
    UK.
    
    Paul

    or Italy or France or Germany or Belgium or?

	A word on marshalling. In F1, particularly since last years
	edict, a car which receives assistance from marshals is 
	immediately disqualified and must go straight to the pits
	or be blackflagged.

	Consequently if a car stops with the driver aboard, and seeming
	capable of going on the marshals will be under strict instruction 
	not to interfere with it until it's clear it's retiring, hence
	the conversations with drivers. The drivers I noticed were
	not hurrying to get out of their cars, and in any case you 
	can still push a car if you want. In US racing they send a
	pick-up truck onto the circuit to tow away dead cars under
	'full yellows', and are thus less used to F1 practice. They
	weren't good but neither were they very bad.

	Just imagine the hiatus if a car was disqualified for receiving
	assistance when the driver didn't want any.

	Good start to the season I thought, and definitely Sennas race.
	Unluckiest driver was Moreneo, carefully following Piquet when
	perhaps he could have gone better, and thus seemingly unsighted
	when coming up on Patreses car, which I think was still running
	at the time.

	What a dreadful circuit.

	-John

re.202 by YUPPY::PATEMAN:

Mansell did not balk Patrese, he defended his position but in no way endangered
himself or Patrese (more than is normal for F1!). Patrese was at fault, he was
either going far too fast due to leaving the braking just a little too late or
he bottled out. This is motor racing! I don't remember hearing anyone critise
Piquet for not letting Mansell past in a simular move at the end of last year.

/Dave.

    Sorry to upset you Dave but the way I saw it was that Patrese was
    alongside Mansell and "Our Nige" turned straight in at him either in
    reluctance to give up the place or out of not seeing him. Either way it
    was a dumb thing to do to your team-mate who was going faster than you
    were at the time.
    
    I'm *not* anti Mansell, I'm pleased he is still racing and is back at a
    team he is clearly happy at. However, many more moves like that and he
    will not have a very gruntled team mate.
    
    Paul

	I'm holding back on the Patrese off till I've had another
	chance to look at it. It's interesting to note that 5 years
	ago Piquet was the million dollar man and Mansell the second
	driver, and now the roles are reversed with Patrese, "Not a
	proper driver" (J. Hunt), as the second man. Patrese has 
	different ideas, outqualified Mansell and ran faster in the 
	race after a poor start.

	In qualifying, after the 5 teams everyone predicted, came 
	Dallara, which in view of their testing results wasn't so
	unexpected, and then Brundle in the Brabham-Yamaha which
	did surprise me. Hakinnen was also very impressive indeed.

	The new Benetton colours look quite nice, in comparison that
	is, but surely that wasn't the same camel yellow we're used to 
	seeing or was it just the box that made it look different.
	Unfortunately Jordan now have the green peril to deal with.

	-John	

    
    Dave,
    
    Another major difference about Piquet and Mansell in Adelaide was that
    they were only a couple of laps (well the actual incident was on the
    last lap!) from the end of the race. No-one would have criticised
    Mansell for the same manouevre on Patrese in the same situation, but
    a third of the way into the race? It was rather purile to balk (and
    balk it was) his team-mate and no-doubt will do little for in team 
    relations. Patrese was all over Mansell for a number of laps and a 
    more-reasonable team mate would have let him through to get on with
    it.
    
    I agree that there has been a lot of Anti-Mansell crap, but to claim
    that Mansell made anything other than an error of judgement (no doubt
    bought on by a red mist because his 'no trouble' team mate was going
    faster for whatever reason - Did Mansell have gearbox trouble early
    on?) can only be described as PRO-Mansell crap.
    
    BTW, least you think I'm a Prost fan in disguise, I hope Mansell gets
    his act together and wins the championship, but he's going to need to
    think a bit more if he's going to achieve that. Patrese could easily 
    have robbed Prost of 2 points in the race if Mansell hadn't forced him
    down the escape road, and come November that could make a lot of 
    difference.
    
    Mark

Me upset? Never :-) I just thought there were at least two sides to the
incident. 

1. Mansell swung left to let Patrese through and then was suprised as
   anyone to find Patrese sliding past instead of taking the corner? 
2. Mansell swung left to take a better swipe at Patrese?

As I see it, the onus was on Patrese to make a clean move not on Mansell
to stop and wave him by! Just ask Prost.

/Dave :-)

    
    Just a thought on the ease with which Senna won...
    
    Did anyone else notice how little of the road he was using? Even in 
    the early laps he was well away from the walls coming out of corners.
    Can this be entirely due to driver skill or does it suggest that the
    Mclaren and V12 Honda combination still has a significant slow speed
    advantage over the opposition?
    
    Mark

    Come on!
    
    Patrese was locking up his tyres all through the race, even on the very
    first corner.
    
    Luckily Mansell left Patrese room to leave the track without causing
    any damage - he could never have taken the corner at the speed he was
    going at anyway.
    
    You should never play silly games at the start of a race, and even more
    so with your team-mate. Mansell as ever was driving a thinking mans
    race - no risks until you have to. Patrese was playing the "i have
    something to prove" game, and he fell over!
    
    m (totally unbiased) b

    I couldn't understand the predictions before the race, and now I can't
    understand those who see Phoenix as an omen of a good season.  What I
    see is 1988 (McLaren 15 out of 16?).
    
    MotorSport reported that Honda claimed the V12 was more powerful than
    the 10, and was easier to drive.  And the V10 ended lasty season as the
    most powerful engine in the game.  Going into Phoenix I felt the only
    hope for a competitive season was another ill-handling McLaren chassis,
    but the new car looks excellent.
    
    So who can beat Senna?  The Renault, after 2+ years of on-track
    development never matched the Honda 10, never mind the 12.  Barnard's
    new Bennetton might be magic, but the Ford 8 will be at a disadvantage
    at several tracks.  The Porsche looks horrible; the Ilmor will need
    development (and a better car?);  Judd probably lacks the resources to
    win Indy OR F-1 -- but is trying both (and Group C and F3000?).
    
    That leaves Ferrari.  Their 12 was a few horses shy of the Honda 10 . .
    .  Maybe they'll do better on "their" tracks.  And maybe the 643 will
    be rushed to completion.
    
    As for Phoenix, a horribly supported race, a mediocre track.  AND --
    let's not forget -- a pathetic show for the $$$.  If you were NOT an
    F-1 fanatic, would you pay a LOT of money to attend next year's race
    after witnessing this year's procession??
    
    Worse, if you were a sponsor, would you spend millions of dollars per
    year to sponsor Leyton House, Brabham, or Footworks -- never mind
    Lotus, Ligier, Minardi, etc, etc.?  
    
    It doesn't look good from here.
    
    Don   

    Senna's post-race remarks: He said his tires lost adherence early and
    he was having some problems with the gearbox, so he was staying away
    from the walls. For me, that makes his margin all the more incredible.
    
    Senna was about a second a lap faster than Prost for the first 7 or 8
    laps, then ran about a half-second faster (with a couple of exceptions)
    until the mid point where he had over 30 seconds lead. He kept about 30
    from there on (once up to over 40) until the end, where as usual he
    slowed way down for the finish. Another of his remarks was that his
    biggest problem was to keep up his concentration.
    
    Senna remarked about the Patrese "off". Said the yellow flag was not
    waved very energeticly, that he slowed way down more or less on a
    hunch, and _just_ squeeked by "If I had been a little bit faster, it
    wouldn't have passed."
    
    Three different cars and three different motors at the top: good sign
    for an interesting season. Also, one each of the top teams broke, so
    there's no sign yet of super reliability from any of the teams. Also, a
    lot of different cars in the top 6-8 postions during the race was nice
    to see. Hope it stays that way.
    
    The Mansell-Patrese [type of] incident confuses me. This seems to be
    the typical: rear car makes desperate dive for the inside, front car is
    wide for the bend (classic line for highest speed, no?), front car
    turns in, woops, space is being filled.  If rear car can dive in fast
    enough to get the wheels side-by-side, it's the front car's fault when
    they crash. If the wheels are not quite side-by-side, it's the rear
    car's fault when they crash.  Just about every corner "incident" that's
    happened during the past season (or two) has been this situation.
    (Insert here all the Senna-Prost-Berger-Mansell tirades, mine
    included).  
    
    If the two cars are pretty evenly matched, should the front car "let"
    the other through, or is it the responsibility of the rear car to
    ensure he has a 90% chance of making it smoothly? If the rear car
    doesn't ever "take a chance", there won't be any real racing (too easy
    to make the corner difficult for the chap behind you).
    
    My first reaction was that Patrese was trying too hard and his attempt
    there was desperate. He seemed to be too fast for the bend even if
    Mansell hadn't bobbled in at him.
    
    russ

    Just read that Patrese's spin was from a broken gearbox: he was in the
    bend, in neutral (evidently between gears), when it switched to 2nd and
    locked up the rear wheels.
    
    russ

    Re mansell & patrese
    
    I watched the Beeb's highlights last night and slow-moed (awful
    expression I know) the incident. Patrese only locked up when mansell
    started to turn in. That indicates to me that he was comfortable in his
    own mind to get round the corner but saw Mansell about to off him and
    stepped on the anchors.
    
    Hakkinen's odd spin on the start line was caused by him accidentally
    removing the steering wheel - nice one Mika! Also, he should have been
    black flagged as after the spin with Blundell he was pushed back onto
    the track. A combination of poor knowledge of the rules on both sides I
    think.
    
    As for the season as a whole and the depressed comments of a few back,
    some observations:
    
    McHonda
    
    Good out of the box as usual but not 100% reliable. Will only get
    better.
    
    Ferrari
    
    Not their circuit but kept up well, Alesi showed Prost the way quite
    well and seemed to put some fire back into the Prof. Will also get
    better.
    
    Williams
    
    Not a bad start for cars that had barely turned a wheel. Again - will
    get better, as long as the auto-box is better engineered than the
    active suspension of a couple of years ago.
    
    Benetton
    
    Solid start for a year old car. Waiting for Imola.
    
    Tyrrell
    
    Also a good solid start with the new engine. Need a better number two
    than Naka, but also need the Honda V10! Should have been a bit closer
    if they are real challengers.
    
    Brabham
    
    Got both cars in and one to the finish. Last year's car again, so
    should improve.
    
    Lotus
    
    Amazing performance from Mika. If only they had a decent engine. Should
    pick up the odd point later in the season.
    
    Arrows
    
    Old car, awful engine. No hope.
    
    Fomet
    
    Will not prequalify
    
    Leyton House
    
    Again, encouraging start after limited testing. Capelli running in the
    top ten on a circuit he only qualified at by Ligier's exclusion last
    year. Will improve.
    
    Scud Italia, Jordan, Modena, 
    
    Good start, need more work
    
    AGS
    
    Got a car to the finish again! Need a decent engine tho'
    
    Larousse
    
    Got a point so a ray of sunshine, but I don't reckon they'll get too
    many more.
    
    Ligier
    
    Looks a real clinker. Poor Comas.
    
    Coloni
    
    Forget it.
    
    The first race is always odd but Senna again proved he is the magic
    ingredient. He'll win the title, but it won't be easy, and it'll be
    down to him not McHonda.
    
    Paul

    A slight rathole -
    
    To qualify as the next GP commentator, select any two of the following
    topics and talk about them at every race:
    
    Tear off visor strips
    Titanium rubbing strips
    Berger's cockpit size (the car I mean :-) )
    Rubbish in the radiators (this one is due for a comeback this year)
    
    Are the non-English commentators the same or do they talk about
    interesting things?
    
    Paul

    Non-English commentators are equal to the English. In addition, they
    tend towards very nationalistic commentating.
    
    russ

    Re .222
    
    >> Patrese only locked up when mansell started to turn in.
    
    To be fair to Mansell it looked to me as if he locked up and started 
    to slide round into Patrese's path. Maybe he had finally decided to
    let his faster team-mate through, but 'got it sideways on the marbles'.
    (Another useful commentator phrase!)
    
    Mark

    FISA have confirmed that 6 F1 teams have indicated serious financial
    problems that may well prevent them to compete the full F1 1991
    championship. Teams names not disclosed.
    
    Immediate proof of that is AGS: the team has declared itself bankrupt
    and is under liquidation. The team members present at Phoenix have
    declared they will actually pay for the trip to Brasil. But who knows
    what will eventually happen.
    
    Larrousse is not safe either, although they have just signed a contract
    with Marlboro Japan. Their 6th place at Phoenix might help.

    4 would appear to be obvious:
    
    AGS
    Coloni
    Fomet
    Larrouse
    
    I would guess the others are likely to be Minardi, who looked very
    "unsponsored" in Phoenix and lost a big deal with Pioneer to Ferrari
    and Scud. Italia. 
    
    Lotus appear to be OK for the time being and the Lotus name still
    attracts money. Most of the other teams have ties to one main sponsor
    and an engine manufacturer.
    
    Paul

    
    >> Lotus appear to be OK for the time being and the Lotus name still
    
    The Lotus looked very unsponsored as well in Phoenix. The tail wing 
    was sponsored by Lotus USA, which presumably was a one off deal.
    
    Mark

    Patrese was on the dirty side of the track, absolutely no grip out of
    the "ideal" line.

    Re: ad infinitum!
    
    The reason Mansell pushed his car back between the Armco was that he
    had parked in the pit exit acceleration lane, and was trying to get it
    in a less vulnerable position. It's a shame no-one helped him make a
    better job of it.
    
    JK
    
    p.s. I also think Patrese screwed it up. Mansell was driving his line,
    saw Patrese on his inside and backed off. Patrese's enthusiasm was
    greater then his judgement and off he went, whilst Mansell could afford
    to trun into the corner and carry on.

    Patrick -
    
    Is it true that Jordan got only $1.5M from 7Up?  How can they possibly
    campaign a two car team for that little?  The last figures I heard for
    a CART Indy car team was $10M - for a two car, competitive effort. 
    That was the figure that Rick Galles quoted last year.  The unique
    engineering effort seems to be lower in CART than in F1 and Jordan must
    be getting more $$ from other sources.  Tyrrell (and Brabham, Arrows,
    Minardi, ect) must be running on very small budgets.  Anyone have any
    information on this?  I believe that Jordan, Tyrrell and Brabham showed
    quite well given the limits of budget.  We come to expect engineering
    excellence (perfection??) from McLaren, Ferrari, Benetton and Williams,
    so when these little guys go well, I get excited.
    
    Paul
    

A large chunk of the yearly expense would go to the drivers on top teams.
Tyrrell probably hasn't paid a driver since Stewart drove for him, that's how
he can get along year-after-year with little sponsorship money.  I would
expect that Jordan is doing about the same.

Dave

    
    Tommorow night there is a special program on Eurosport called "Inside
    Track", with intervieuws of pilots after the race.
    
    luc

    Back to the budget issues.  I can see why a small team like Jordan, or
    even Tyrrell, might not pay the driver.  I assume the driver would get
    his pay from personel sponsers.  But even if Jordan has only 30-40
    people, how can he run a team with $1-2M?  It's remarkable that he can
    pay for supplies and design, let alone engines and tires!
    
    I wish Jordan and Tyrrell good luck.  I'd love to see them both do well
    and even score a victory.  Wouldn't that be a shot in the arm!
    
    Paul

    Has anyone seen the Phoenix podium ceremony ? after the usual prize
    giving, national antems, ... the 3 drivers (Prost, Senna, Piquet)
    opened the champagne bottles and started chasing both Ron Dennis and
    Balestre. Then, 30 seconds later, when all 3 guys decided to leave both
    Dennis and Balestre grabbed a bottle of champagne each and started
    flooding Senna and Prost. All this in a friendly relaxed atmosphere.

    I saw Ron Menace flooding Senna but not JMB/Prost. We only saw the end
    of the ceremony - did Prost & Senna acknowledge each other?
    
    Also - I'm surprised there has been so little comment on the Leyton
    House sabotage. Coming on the heels of Peter Windsor, the Williams
    manager, getting a "seeing too" this all sounds rather suspicious.
    
    Paul
    

    .241 No, they did not even look at each other.
    
    However Ron Dennis and Alain Prost were having a merry old chat
    throughout the 'ceremony'
    
    		George Frost

    
    re .240
    
    Can someone please elaborate on Peter Windsor's "seeing too"?
    
    Thank you.
    
    Nate

    Peter Windsor was attacked by some heavies outside his house last week.
    No one has admitted responsibility, and it appeared to be "a warning"
    Paul 

Back after a long absence...

After his performance 8 days ago, Senna is God! Effortlessly drove away from
everyone - kept his nose clean overtaking backmarkers - totally outclassed
his teamate in a similar car (who is no slouch).

With the car being 'out of the box', no wonder he and Ron Dennis looked so
pleased with themselves.

Senna asked for a Ferrari - and the side pods in particular look Ferrar-ish -
have Mclaren got back on level terms with an up-to-date chassis? I look
forward to this weekend with anticipation!

Steve

    Could someone please point out the 1991 F1 schedule?  Is it in this
    note?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeff

    1991 Formula 1

    10/3	Phoenix
    24/3	Brazil
    28/4	Imola
    12/5	Monte Carlo
    2/6		Montreal
    16/6	Mexico
    7/7		France
    14/7	Silverstone
    28/7	Germany
    11/8	Hungary
    25/8	Belgium
    8/9		Italy
    22/9	Portugal
    29/9	Spain
    20/10	Japan
    3/11	Adelaide

    16 to watch !

    - Royston

    Senna must be favourite for Brazil....he was fairly convincingly ahead 
    last season when he did one of his 'stupids' with Nakajima.
    
    However I expect Ferrari to set up the car for speed, speed and speed.
    I expect the winning driver to be the fittest physically which has to
    suit Prost......but then he did not design the circuit and is not at
    home.
    
                  George Frost

    Brazil:
    
    
    	Prost 		Ferrari
    
    	Mansell		Williams
    
    	Senna		McLaren
    
    	Berger		McLaren
    
    	Alesi		Ferrari
    
    	Piquet		Bennetton
    
    
    
    		regards  George Frost	

    
    
    	Brazil
    
    		Senna,Patrese,Prost,Piquet (any two of many)
    
    	wont finish
    		Mansell,Berger,alesi...
    
    

    
    Anyone know what time the BBC are showing the GP this Sunday?
    
    Mark

    But Mark, surely you get a free paper with w/e tv details and tv times
    is still only 25p !

	I see Brazil as being somewhat closer than Phoenix, which
	was a Senna benefit type circuit, with the other leading
	contenders mainly driving for a finish.

	Most noticable change is the new Williams, gearbvox problems
	apart of course. Last years car was reasonably competitive on
	quick circuits but way off the pace around the twisty bits.
	On US evidence the FW14 is a very serious contender. 

	Benetton and Tyrrell didn't seem to gain much from running through
	non-stop on Pirellis and really the Goodyears still look best.

	Senna must be favourite, but it'll be close with the Williams and
	Ferraris pressing hard.
	
	-John

	PS. Having looked carefuly at the video I reckon Patreses
	'excursion' was mainly of his own making.

    Having chatted to a couple of race fans since Phoenix, we are all
    somewhat surprised at the minor furore that the Mansell/Patrese
    'incident' caused.
    
    General opinion seemed to be that Patrese was going like a bomb, braked
    too late and had to straight line it to stay on the track and in the
    race. Of course he was trying to pass Mansell at the same time.
    
    		George Frost

    re: 256
    
    I agree.  It looked like just another racing incident.  These guys
    aren't surgeons and they make they occasional error.  Big deal.  I
    don't think either one of them is too upset about it.  Why are we?
    
    Paul
    

    re:256/7
    
    When everyone gets excited over such a small incident it
    has to say something about the race!
    
    Re Brazil..
    
    I think Senna will want Brazil more than anything this year,
    and will drive to win (carefully).
    
    Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Modena, Moreno...
    
    Kev..

    right on the last noter. 
    
    Senna was saying (French TV last night) that he very wants three
    titles, Brazil and etc.......
    
    Prost has to establish himself and the car very soon to maintain the
    points totals and to make a competitive season of it.
    I am looking forward to a very tense end of race. The race will be
    clean fair and Prost will pip it.
    
    
    
    		George Frost

    	I go for Nakajima throwing the Tyrrell round in good style but
    being taken off just towards the end by Senna as the McLaren gets
    lapped. Alesi burns so much rubber at the start he has to come straight
    into the pits for tyres but the mechanics, in their haste, put
    Goodyears on the front and Pirellis on the rear and the handling was
    never the same again. Mansell and Patrese locked wheels at the first
    corner but went really well after that and came in a deadheat for
    second, still locked together. Prost stuffed it after passing the scene
    of the Senna/Nakajima incident and blowing raspberries at the Brazilian
    as he walked home. Tarquini and Johansson finish 3rd and 4th on the
    road but were disqualified as there was not enough money in the kitty
    to buy Balestre a beer at the end of the race. De Cesaris unhappily
    took out Gachot on the last lap 'cos he didn't want to spoil his record
    and finish a race. Berger ended up 3rd but could stand up on the
    rostrum for the ceremony (his feet hurt too much) so he was
    disqualified, too. Julian Bailey and Mika Hakkinen were then elevated to 
    3rd and 4th but Balestre gave the points to Martin Donnelly and Derek
    Warwick "because they deserves it". The Benettons were black-flagged
    for being too garish so Chaves and Morbidelli got the final points.
    
    The race was judged to be a great success by the three spectators as
    they were carried off to be dried out....
    
    Synically yours,
    
    	Colin

re: .260

 At last, some sanity in this conference :-) :-)

 If it were to be like that, I suspect even more people would be
 interested in watching ... an F1 version of 'Rollerball' !!!

    Both Brazil and San Marino will be key races to determine whether the
    Senna/McLaren combination is going to be invincible this season.
    
    What we saw at Phoenix was truly impressive but there is still hope. No
    one really knows how the McLaren will work on fast tracks.
    
    Ferrari and Prost have announced that should the McLaren display
    superior handling in Brazil they'll have a new car ready asap (maybe as
    soon as Imola).

    
    Pre-Qualifying for Interlagos has completed with the two Jordan boys
    and the two Dallara (Scuderia Italia) boys making the grade.
    
    I think the order was 	J. J. Lehto
    				B. Gachot
    				A. Decesaris
    				E. Pirro
    
    Pre-qualifying was dry.
    
    Very bad weather for the last few days (very heavy rain) and it is said
    that the Pirelli Wets are not up to the mark!
    
    Good chance of a wet race on Sunday which could bode bad for Benettons
    and Tyrrells.
    
    Steve 	

    Prediction for Sunday
    
    Senna
    Prost
    Moreno
    Mansell
    Modena
    Capelli
    
    Alesi, Patrese, Piquet and Berger all to drop out. Jordan to get at
    least one car to the finish. But me thinks that Senna will be a good
    bet, and possibly a good bet for 16 out of 16.
    
    Paul
    

    I suspect that limits to car design, for given power and chassis
    technology, are being approached. 
    Brazil will show cars losing traction at very high speed...opinion
    only.
    
    
    	George Frost

 I could be wrong, but I thought that the turbo cars had more power than the
current cars do, so why would the power be getting too much for the chassis ??

		 Alan
		~~~~~~

    1 - Senna, McLaren
    2 - Patrese, Williams
    3 - Berger, McLaren
    4 - Prost, Ferrari
    5 - Piquet, Benetton
    6 - Alesi, Ferrari
    
    Good race by Senna; Great race by Mansell, the only other driver/car
    able to stay with Senna. The two of them miles (30+ seconds) ahead of
    the rest of the pack. Mansell lost an extr 7-8 seconds in the pits,
    came out about 8 seconds behind Senna, and was catching him rapidly.
    His progression slowed when he was about 1-2 seconds behind. He began
    falling back slowly, then spun and retired. I don't know yet if the
    spin damaged something in the car or if a broken car caused the spin.
    
    Senna had some severe gear-box problem near the end and Patrese almost
    caught him. Probably would have caught him (passing is another story)
    but for rain the started with 2 laps to go, which probably caused
    Patrese to slow.
    
    All of this from memory so bear with with any minor/major mistakes.
    
    Re .260: Colin,
      Had I read your note earlier, I would have suggested that Nakajima
    could take himself off with no help from Senna or any one else. And
    that happened, as Nakajima apparently slid waaaaay off across the grass
    up a slight hill.
      You did get 3rd place right in your otherwise well-though-out
    prediction.
    
    Russ
    

    The qualifications were almost as good as the race. Senna had the
    preliminary pole. On Saturday, Mansell went out and took the pole by a
    good margin. Alesi then went faster than Prost. Near the end of the
    session, Patrese took the pole from Mansell by 0.1". Through all this,
    Senna was sitting in his car, watching the activities on the computer.
    
    With five minutes to go, Prost went out, followed a half-minute or so
    by Senna. Prost got blocked in one turn which cost him some time, but
    he later said he wouldn't have made it up with the leaders anyway.
    Senna did his usual thing, taking the pole from Patrese, with about
    0.35" lead, much slimmer than Phoenix.
    
    russ

    Mansell's demise was caused by the gearbox selecting 1st not 4th,
    throwing him into a spin. The showing of the Williams tho' was very
    encouraging for good races during the rest of the season tho'.
    
    Ferrari looked very ordinary, I suspect that new car & engine will be
    on show at imola now!
    
    Otherwise -
    
    Bad luck on Jordan again when Gachot retired in 7th with about 8 laps
    to go. Worrying lack of performance from Tyrrell. Good drive again from
    Hakkinnen who finished his first GP. Unlucky on Gugelmin to have his
    fire extinguisher go off in the warm up and burn him so he had to
    retire after qualifying so well (but good omens for the engine and the
    team). Lacklustre performance from Benetton, clearly marking time 'til
    the new car emerges on Wednesday.
    
    Now, who'll offer me odds on Senna getting 16 out of 16?
    
    paul

    
    
    Senna only just made it accross the line, bad gearbox and I believe
    suffering from near exhaustion.
    
    Mansell had problems finding his gears in the first pit stop, Don't
    know wether it was driver or car(no doubt there will be some views exp
    ressed on that one!).
    Second pit stop due to puncture nearly ended up fatal for one of
    Mansells pit crew,haven't replayed it on the video yet but it looked
    like Nige was a little too quick for him to get out of the way.
    Mansells retirement looked to be similar to that of Patrese in Pheonix.
    
    The Williams seemed to be the only car that could stay with Senna, the
    Ferrari's just didn't seem to have it, although they did both finnish
    in the points.
    
    Great to see Hakkinen/lotus complete the race, I believe a creditable
    9th considering the top seven plces were taken by the top four teams.
    
    As usual though not impressed by the camera work..
    
    KEV..
    

    Senna's gearbox started going out about 20 laps from the end. He lost
    2nd, then lost 5th, and 6th was going as well. He had to hold it in
    gear with his right hand and stear with his left. He finished the race
    with cramps in arm, back, and neck, and could barely move.
    
    No way will Senna "dominate" the other races. Williams are looking
    very, very good, and both Mansell and Patrese are motivated.
    
    Ferrari looked a little sad, with Alesi not able to catch the lil' Ford
    V8 of Piquet. Prost was astounded by the improvement of the Williams.
    He said they (Ferrari team?) expected a small improvement, but saw
    about 20% improvement of Williams.
    
    russ

    
    Re Paul.
    
    I'll give you good odds on Senna getting 16 out of 16.
    
    Only Senna kept the Mclaren in front of the Williams and only luck
    (and the lack of another lap or two of dry race) kept him from failing
    to do that due to a mechanical failure.
    
    All Williams need is a little bit more reliability and they'll be 
    the dominant team. 
    
    Anybody want to give me good odds on Mansell and Patrese both winning
    this year?
    
    Mark

Williams gearbox problems in Phoenix were both caused by a bug in the gearbox
software - they thought that they'd got it fixed for Interlagos - however it
doesn't look that way.

Williams are supposed to have a new car for Imola - do they need it?! Mansell
has never had much of a reputation for setting up cars; however according to
the Williams team he transformed the current chassis within two weeks of
re-joining them.

I felt sorry for Mansell yesterday - he really did deserve better and showed
that fire and enthusiasm that he had in '86 and '87.

Senna had to rest in his car for 10 minutes before getting out - he was
completely drained. It was only then that I realised that he had driven a
really SPECIAL race - first soaking up Mansell's pressure, and then keeping his
mishandling car going. He isn't going to let his title go lightly - he's just
as motivated as before...

Cheers

Steve

    
    Aren't they already using the new car?
    
    Is this a revised FW14 already? Perhaps it'll be a new Renault engine?
    
    Mark

	What an amazing race from Senna, he really deserved to (finally) win
	the Brazilian GP.  Poor old Mansell got further jogging practice getting
	back to the pits.  Where were everyone else?  I'm sure that more than
	Senna, Mansell and Patrese were racing but no-one else was in the
	race...

	Dave

    I was dissappointed with the BBC coverage last night. There was no
    brief interview with the drivers after the race, and no explanation was
    given for Mansell and Senna's problems (apart from James and Murray's
    guesses).
    
    I really felt for Senna on the last lap, he deserved to IMO.
    As for our Nige, I was just waiting for him to go off with mechanical
    failure like always. As for his pit stops, well what can I say !
    
    Thanks to previous notes, its clarified a few queries that I had about
    the race.
    
    - Roy

	My thoughts on the 'Early Season' races.

	Yes, basically a Senna victory this one. McLaren will be 
	reasonably pleased with the start to the season, since
	their new car has held together and performed pretty well
	but the wins are very much Sennas contribution.

	Williams will also be very confident, the new car looks like
	a winner through and through. I noticed that Mansell was
	using far less road than Senna to achieve the same sort of
	lap times which is ominous from McLarens point of view.

	Also happy will be Piquet who's grabbed some points in the 
	old car. The Pirelli tyres are not disasterous as they once
	used to be, but still a disadvantage. With the new car
	imminent they'll be looking forward to better things to come.

	Ferrari must now realise that the car is no longer a winner.
	Personally I have little faith in their ability to come up
	with something radically better and expect them to slip
	back to fourth in the pecking order come europe.

	Tyrrell will wonder why they're worse off than last year despite
	Honda power. Who knows why?, but the car does look ponderous.

	Dallara and EJR will be desperate to score a points finish.
	They have to prequalify and then get placed in the top half
	of the grid, quite clearly way ahead of many runners who
	don't prequalify.

	Finally a word on the Lamborghini car (Modena). It may not be
	very competitive but it certainly looks really good. One of the
	best looking GP cars ever.

	-John

    re last.
    I totally agree with your comments concerning the BBC coverage.
    
    As I cant wait untill this weeks Autosport comes out,maybe someone
    could help fill in many of the gaps from last nights viewing.
    What happened to DeCrasheris in the other Jordan.
      "    "       " the Brabhams.
    Did the Footworks team qualify.
    And finally what happened to the Tyrells and Capelli in the other
    Leyton House.
    
    	steve
    

RE: .279

>>	Williams will also be very confident, the new car looks like
>>	a winner through and through. I noticed that Mansell was
>>	using far less road than Senna to achieve the same sort of
>>	lap times which is ominous from McLarens point of view.

Is this the new car? I thought that it wasn't going to be ready before Imola -
but my news dates from 5 weeks ago?

I also noticed how little of the road Mansell used compared with Senna - I
reckon that Ayrton was going a good 6 feet wider (onto the curb) on the exit
from one particular bend.

I think that Renault deserve credit as well - their engine is very competitive
and hasn't given a hint of trouble so far.

    re .280:
    
    - Neither Footworks-Porsche qualified.
    - Capelli: motor broke, 17th lap
    - DeCrasher: Motor & spin (which came first?), 21st lap
    - Blundell-Brabham: motor broke, 34th lap
    - Brundle-Brabham: finished 15th (out of 15 finishers)
    - Nakajima-Tyrell: way off in grass on 13th lap
    - Modena-Tyrell: gearbox controller, 20th lap
    
    Senna: only had 6th gear for the last few laps. Said it was alright on
    the straights, but kind of hard to get it up to speed and kind of hard
    to get it slowed down on brakes only.
    
    Jordan sure is a nice looking car.
    
    russ

    In my opinion Ferrari's major problem is ... their engine. It is very
    obvious that the McLaren engine works beautifully : plenty of torque
    and plenty of bhp. The Ferrari engine certainly has bhp at 14000rpm but
    has a lack of torque below.
    
    Looking at the Prost in-car camera shots when following (trying to
    follow) Piquet I was really sorry as the Benetton was disappearing out
    of sight in the fast left handers preceding the pit straight.

    Prost said that the Ferrari's problem was the engine.
    Alesi said that the Ferrari's problem was the chassis: "handled well
    when fully loaded, but as it got lighter, the handling became very 
    bad" [paraphrased].
    
    With two cars close together, it always looks like the front car has a
    big accelleration advantage and the rear car has the best braking. Just
    a matter of timing. However, the sight of the Ferrari trailing along
    behind the Benetton on the straights wasn't really my image of the
    Prancing Black Horse.
    
    russ

    just out of interest.. and without trying to start a rathole,
    how do the automatic boxes work ? Does the driver have any control
    other than the 'button on the steering wheel' and what does the button
    do ? Does it shift 1 gear at a time, up or down -like a motorcycle
    gearbox ? and finally what about the clutch ?
    
    AmS.
    
    (all provoked by the problem for Mansel when the auto shifted 4-1)

    Just read some post-race remarks by Patrese. He was starting to get
    some gearbox problems, minor, but made him cautious. He decided that to
    attack in that condition wouldn't be prudent. (Passing is harder than
    catching. 
   
    Also: Patrick Head (engineer) decided at the last minute to give the
    Williams 5-speed boxes. They simply mounted a 6th gear pinion identical
    to the 5th. If they lost 5th, they would use 6th in it's place. The
    idea was to have a better chance to finish at the cost of somewhat
    lesser performance.
    
    Sounds more and more like Williams might be the car to beat. One month
    to wait for the next race is cruel.
    
    russ

    	Not a great race, in my opinion, but I always find F1 absorbingly
    fascinating. Unfortunately, my predictions are always waaaay out...
    
    	I think McLaren have had a fantastic start to the season,
    considering it is a totally new car and engine and it doesn't have all
    the whells and bistles of some of the others (maybe this is WHY it goes
    so well straight out of the box?!). Berger's career, despite his
    rostrum finish, seems to be heading the Johansson route!
    
    	Ferrari must be feeling pretty bad, considering how close they ran
    McLaren last year and their expectations for this. They were never in
    the ballpark at Interlagos. Do they need a new car or what?
    
    	Williams have stepped up into the main challengers to McHonda, both
    patrese and Mansell being pretty well fired up these days (and no
    acrimony over "THE incident" in Phoenix!). Mansell was superb in his
    hounding of Senna and, after the pitstop, one could almost sense the
    frustration and adrenelin - typical situation where Nigel does his very
    best. Shame about the outcome ; with Senna's gearbox problem, he would
    have undoubtedly won otherwise. Another superhuman performance from
    Senna, though. Much as I dislike his character and attitude to people I
    have to confess that his driving ability is second to none. He really
    has matured, too, into a thinking driver capable of bringing an ailing
    car to the finish as well as just belting it blindly (as in Adelaide in
    the wet a couple of years ago!!).
    
    	The Benettons were disappointing but then the coverage was
    appalling (I suppose there is some justification in Brazil for
    focussing on the leader when the leader is Brazilian!!) so we didn't
    get to see much of the action further down the field.
    
    	Shame about Gugelmin and even more so for poor old Gachot. The
    Dallaras and Jordans certainly both deserve to miss the early morning
    session. Ligier, Arrows, AGS and Brabham could all, for my money, step
    down and let some real racers get on with it.
    
    	You're right, Russ, there's a helluva long wait until San Marino
    but, with new cars (from Benetton, Brabham, Lotus and Ferrari? - the
    Williams were using the FW14 in South America) it should be mighty
    interesting. I don't think Senna's going to make it three-in-a-row but
    I'm not saying who I think will win it!!
    
    Colin

THe AP (Associated Press) report used by my local Swiss paper was a bit biased.
Some of the major points:

Senna led from start to finish, utterly dominated the race, and was never
challenged (- the only time that Mansell was mentioned was when he came out of
the pits for the second time 23 seconds down).

Mansell span out overdoing it on cold tyres.

Senna will be unbeatable in San Marino.

:-)

Steve

    A lot of heat in the Italian press as one could assume : big headlines
    such as "Is everything going wrong with Ferrari", "Top managers are
    going to be fired", "Get rid of Prost", ...
    
    Reality : Ferrari have booked Imola for exclusive use next week. A new
    engine will be used at San Marino GP (with 4valves/cyl ?). New 643 will
    not be available until mid season (?). Lots of minor mods will be
    applied to 642.

I thought the Ferrari was already 5 valves/cylinder. Anyone know what 
differences there are in the new engine. I assume it's simply an evolution
of the old one...

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1241.294                    Formula 1, 1991                      294 of 294
VOGON::DAWSON "Turn ignition on - Turn brain off!"   27 lines  28-MAR-1991 08:26
                        -< Gearbox problems explained >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    	Just for ther record, Mansell's demise was due to the gearbox
    "automatically" downshifting from 4th to 1st and was nothing to do with
    spinning on cold tyres. His second tyre stop (caused by a split tyre)
    was some 15 or so laps before the incident.
    
    	The gearbox problem is apparently a software bug which they thought 
    they had fixed (Damon Hill has been doing a lot of rushing round (eg at 
    Silverstone the previous week) testing the gearbox without problems!). 
    After the spin, he spun-turned it and blasted back through the box as far 
    as 3rd when he discovered 4th had gone for a walk. Interestingly, Williams 
    were running two 5th gears (instead of 5th and 6th) as they thought this 
    was a possible cause for concern.
    
    	Patrese was also in gearbox problems towards the end, occasionally
    missing out gears on the downchanges, so he did not push too hard
    towards the end, especially as the rain started.
    
    	Senna's problem was a loss of 4th gear with 20 laps to go, followed
    a dozen or so laps later by 3rd and 5th going missing, too! He left the
    car in 6th and "cruised" round ; he had to concentrate incredibly hard,
    the car wanting to stall (at around 2000rpm) in the slow corners and
    having -ve braking effect at the end of the straights. Coupled with the
    rain, it was hardly surprising that he had to sit in the car for 10
    mins after the race before he could even be helped from the car!
    
    Cheers,
    	Colin

    Another great race for McLaren and Senna. 
    I had said last season that it is the driver that makes the success for
    the car, not the car that does the walking, and Senna undoubtedly won
    the race for McLaren. However I see the result of the race as rather
    negative for McLaren in that the opposition has seen the achilles heel
    and is aware that McLaren are up to be beaten. To be sure Ron Dennis
    and Co. have also seen the light.
    
    I suspect that Ferrari spent too much time in the interim between
    Australia and Phoenix on the new car. The 642 was probably considered
    more than good enough for early 91 and work on it stagnated. It lost
    and will no doubt continue to loose.
    
    My observation about cars becoming airborne is based in a simple law of
    aerodynamics. A moving body (in air) creates lift (-ve or +ve)......if it 
    moves faster it creates more lift......and cars are moving faster now than
    ever before, notwithstanding turbos or power or whatever.
    More important, they are reaching higher speeds more quickly so that
    more lift is generated faster and more often.
    The job now becomes harder to balance the vertical forces with the
    lateral forces so that all remain as low (relative to each other) as 
    possible at all times.
    
    Assume that the car is configured to perfection and balanced for best
    speed, braking, lateral neutrality etc., etc..... 
    Hit a bump at very high speed and the juggling to bring all the forces 
    back into balance again (VERY quickly) is causing enormous problems.
    In reality the cars are set-up to achieve maximum -ve lift (to hold the
    car on the road) at the expense of forward velocity but drivers are
    prepared to use less 'aileron' to go faster and sooner or later with
    current uses of technique cars are going to start 'flying'.
    
    Skirts, dynamic ailerons, fans, active suspensions are all methods to 
    juggle these factors, however it remains for FIA to develop a means of
    measuring the performance characteristics of cars (during a race) so that 
    limits can be applied to maintain safety for the 'pilot' and public.
    Once limits and parameters are measurable, FIA can sanction the use of 
    almost any methods to achieve these balances.
    
    			George Frost
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Patrick,
    
       	'downforce' as you use it is -ve lift, that is, the pressure
    generated by the airflow over the top of the car is higher than that
    underneath the car.
    (An aeroplane works in the inverse sense).
    The 'downforce' that you mentioned is designed into cars to keep the 
    cars on the road.....but at the expense of higher road/tyre resistance 
    which slows the car. (Drag is another discussion).
    
    For the sake of discussion let's leave out lateral control (it also is
    very important but works at 90degrees to the vertical forces which we
    are discussing)
    
    Now if you could control (in real time) the degree of 'downforce' so
    that the tyres have nominal resistance - that is, maintain enough
    traction to transmit all the power of the axle to the road - under any
    circumstance, then performance becomes a function only of torque
    (engine power) and aerodynamic drag. Of course structural damage to the 
    driver and car as it corners at +9g will happen so some limit will be 
    found for that. Specialised aircraft currently manoeuvre at +13g.
    
    My contention is that chassis tuners are tweaking the cars to maintain the
    minimum of 'downforce' for the reasons above, at the risk of cars
    taking off when they hit a bump at high speed. The same effect happens
    all too often in hydro racing. The underside of the hull is designed to 
    optimised 'downforce' for almost all circumstances except the "bump".
    If the hull is designed for more downforce the boat will go slower and
    lose the championship but keep a driver.
    
    The cure is to add an active elevator to the rear of the hull or car.
    As in an aeroplane, if the nose lifts counteract the positive going
    'downforce' on the nose with a touch of down elevator. Of course moving
    surfaces have been banned in F1.....(no processor power :-)).
    
    So, to finish, F1 cars have no active surfaces so the temptation is to
    lessen the 'downforce' by setting the angle of the fixed elevator
    (aileron) less positive, to achieve more speed....and then the bump.
    
    
    		George Frost  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Another question on technology:
    
    When reading about turbo cars, both race and street, one reads of
    "boost".  For example, a street car engine might be listed as having 12
    inches of boost at maximum.  My question is, does that mean 1 Bar
    (29.12 inches) + 12 inches?  Indy cars run with 46 inches of boost.  Is
    that 1 Bar + 46 inches?  That sounds right to me.
    
    BTW, when the turbo was king in F1, 3-4 Bars (or atmospheres) was
    common.  BMW ran 5.5 once!  That's 160 inches!!!  No wonder they could
    pump 1300 bhp, at least for a short while!
    
    Paul
     

    I totally agree George.
    
    One of the apparent problems with the Ferrari is that they seem to have
    WAY TOO MUCH load on the rear and (probably a result) too little load
    on the front = car does not turn and front wheels wear rapidly. 
    
    Last year's Tyrrell was certainly close to perfection : good angle of 
    attack of the flat bottom, very hard rear suspension in terms of 
    compression, very soft rear in terms of antiroll very hard front
    antiroll, very soft front compression.
    
    Problem is to keep the flat bottom making a wedge angle with ground.
                                                            

    Ho Ho Ho,   
    
    
    	understeer/oversteer. I remember discussing this nutmeg when I was
    knee high to a sparrow - depends how you define it.
    
    Patrick's response to .299 UNDERSTEER is, for me, correct.
    
    
    	George Frost 

    Shawn,
    
    	in using the analogy with hydroplanes I was not comparing the
    degree of the effect. We have all seen sequences of hydros lifting the
    nose and then flipping.....that is the exaggerated scenario.
    
    In F1 and other classes, it is simply the momentary loss of front end
    control that will take a car to disaster.
    
                          George Frost

    	The situation George is talking about is similar to that which
    occurred a few years ago when cars had BIG rear aerofoils mounted high
    (eg 6 feet!) above the rear of the car driving down on the rear
    "axles". Rolf Stommelen was one of several to discover that the down
    forces usually generated on the wings and surfaces can, in some
    conditions (such as hitting a bump which raises the nose, or going
    backwards at high speed) cause the car to fly. I believe the wings on
    today's cars are MUCH more sophisticated, though, with subtle shapes
    which generate oodles (is that the term used to describe aerodynamic
    forces?) more downforce than the big barn door wings of old without
    anywhere near the drag. Remember the Chaparral in WSC Ch'ship races
    years ago - rear wing the size of an aircraft hanger which feathered on
    the straights, flipped into an air brake at the end and then had a
    midway position for the corner. Magic....
    
    Colin

>    My question is, does that mean 1 Bar
>    (29.12 inches) + 12 inches?  Indy cars run with 46 inches of boost.  Is
>    that 1 Bar + 46 inches?  That sounds right to me.
    
>    BTW, when the turbo was king in F1, 3-4 Bars (or atmospheres) was
>    common.  BMW ran 5.5 once!  That's 160 inches!!!  No wonder they could
>    pump 1300 bhp, at least for a short while!
    
    Street cars (US anyway) generally quote boost relative to atmospheric,
    and include the last few inches of vacuum on the gauge range.  EUs in
    the US are in pounds/sq. inch.  My Supra Turbo wastegate limit is
    spec'd at 6 psi, but 9 to 10 is not uncommon.
    
    Indy car regulations are in absolute inches of mercury, and so only 16
    inches above atmospheric - not a great deal, but the compression ratios
    are kept relatively high.
    
    In Europe, I believe the convention is to quote in bars above
    atmospheric, so the 4 bars is all boost, and explains how they achieved
    six hundred + HP per liter specific outputs.        
    

	So often I hear it said, usually by people who don't know
	what they're talking about (ie. BBC commentators) that the 
	problem with these semi-automatic gearboxes is with the 
	'software'.

	As someone who writes the stuff I can say that there's no doubt 
	that this is a load of hogwash on two counts -

	1. A program as simplistic as is required simply wouldn't have
	any errors in it.

	2. It's unnecessary to actually use a processor on something
	so trivial. It'd be far more reliable with just a bit of old
	fashioned logic.

	The reasons these gearboxes fail is almost certainly mechanical
	as when the gears etc. get worn the actuating mechanism can no 
	longer cope. Unlike a man pulling on a gear lever it can't really
	start compensating as stiffness builds up etc.

	The gears may well get worn by normal use but are also done a
	power of no good by changes being upset (crashed) by bashing
	curbs or instigated from phenoenal revs in low gears. 'Nige' has
	taken a few out this way.

	Racing gearboxes are incredibly simple in comparison to those
	you'll get in a road car. Straight cut gears, no synchro - very
	basic. Really they shouldn't go wrong but vast power through tiny 
	boxes is a problem.

	-John

    ... and at the same time, ensure that the engine speed hasn't gone
    outside the specified envelope and don't forget the priority interrupt
    from the pit computer and is the road speed too high for the next gear
    and has solenoid a energise yet?
    
    every 30ms!
    
    mb

    
    Osamu Goto, responsible for Honda in F1, has quit to join McLaren.
   

    	Both AGS and Larrousse are still chasing sponsorship money to keep
    going in F1 this season. Larrousse himself has spent a lot of time in
    Japan recently and plan to be at Imola - an announcement is expected
    before then. AGS are cautiously optimistic of being at Imola.
    
    	Williams are looking good in testing at Imola - Patrese (1m 24.52s
    on quallies and 1m 25.21s on racers) heads Senna (1m 25.37s - racers),
    Prost (1m 26.07s racers), Berger (1m 26.08s racers) and Alesi (1m
    26.21s racers). Mansell, of course, is back home sorting out his late
    father's affairs.
    
    Colin

    Any.......ANY news out there pse from Immola?
    
    
    		George Frost

    
    Have you read .312?
    
    Mark
    

    Yup, tks Mark but it is still rather sparse.
    
    Somebody must have some more details particularly as tomorrow is
    official practice day and Saturday is qualify day.
    
    	George Frost

    George,
    
    You're two weeks too early. The comments are related to testing. The GP
    is on Sunday 28th!
    
    Paul

    ...and van der Poele's time in the Lambo was 1m 31.12 on race tyres
    before he shunted it and Modena did his TYrrell 020 a lot of no good
    trying to follow Senna through the final flick onto the main straight!
    
    	Does that help, George??!!
    
    Colin

    oooooohh dear, too much too soon or I'm in the vapours (or the spirit
    of the thing!)
    
    	'till Friday 26th then
    
    	George Frost
    
    

	Has anyone read/heard details of the new Benetton B191 yet?
	
	Any radical changes to old car, testing results?.

	-John

    I saw some pics a couple of days back - I'll try and get details
    
    
    		George Frost

    The B191 missed its scheduled Imola testing, and had some laps at
    Silverstone. They are all due out at Imola again this week.
    
    Not much too radical from what I remember, apart from a lot more carbon
    fibre in the construction. Active suspension and an auto box are
    planned for later in the season.
    
    Paul

    
    The only 'unusual' thing about the B191 that I noticed was the
    the way the underside of the nose is swept up towards the front.
    
    Mark 

    Also the radiators and all the equipment residing on both sides of the
    cockpit have been moved backwards a la Tyrrell (the Ferrari problem).

    I just saw some photos of the new Footwork FA12. Very high, narrow nose
    (the leading edge is nearly vertical), sort of like an upside-down
    canoe. A double front wing. They've added Blaupunkt as their second
    sponsor.
    
    russ

    Well peoples,
    
    	This time I think my timing is correct....any news??
    
    		George Frost

    Alboreto wrote off a new Arrows at Imola over the weekend in a 170mph
    off at the Tamburello. He had 7 stitches in his leg, but looks to be
    fit to race. However, there are reputedly doubts that he'll still have
    the drive after Monaco as his ability/commitment is being doubted.
    
    Other testing at Imola was spoiled by....
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    SNOW!!!!
    
    
    Paul

    Who was the chancer who was offer odds on Senna winning all GP's this
    season? I am quite prepared to take him up on it....
    
    Ferrari to win at Immola?? what odds punters?...theoretical money only
    of course - must follow the rules.
    
    		George Frost

    re. 324
    > They've added Blaupunkt as their second
    >    sponsor.
    
    Wonder if you can listen to stereos while driving it ;^)  ???
    
    - Jyri -

    Pre Practice Prediction:
    
    Senna to make it three in a row, chased home by Mansell, Patrese and
    Piquet. Another shambolic weekend for Ferrari, possibly a great
    qualifying performance from a special engine tho'.
    
    Paul

    I have heard that things are 'not good' within the Ferrari camp
    at 'GTO'.  If the car does not produce results *very soon*, then
    a number of staff based there are likely to be out of a job.
    
    J.R.

>    at 'GTO'.  If the car does not produce results *very soon*, then
>    a number of staff based there are likely to be out of a job.
    
	More unemployed coming up soon then, they should have kept
	Barnard and cut back on driver expenses.

	-John

Sticking my neck out:-

	1. Piquet
	2. Patrese
	3. Prost
	4. Mansell
	5. Senna
	6. De Crasheris

/Dave :-)

    My 2 cents... I fancy Patresse to repeat his 1990 win. The car looks
    good and so does Ricardo... He's had some good results in testing and
    this is his favourite track (?)
    
    As the season wears on McHonda could fade and gradually lose its
    dominance to Williams and perhaps Ferrari. Lets hope so 8-)

    I support the last two notes, perhaps a bit further..... Ferrari are
    perhaps beginning to understand the aerodynamics that they have
    inherited (or paid for) and will do well.
    
    They have to!
    
    Senna has had his turn for a while and it must be the ALSO RANS now.
    So Ferrari, Williams (if Mansell doesn't break it again) and Benneton.
    
    			Prost
    
    			Mansell
    
    			Piquet
    
    			Patrese
    			  
    			Senna
    
Senna breaks it and Berger is not competitive.
    
    		George Frost

    Is it true that the FIA will revert to the old scoring method sice the
    change in rules violates the Concord Agreement?  If so, does it mean
    Senna (and McLaren) only scored 9 points for each of their wins thus
    far this year?
    
    Paul
    

    I don't buy the optimism that this year will offer a lot of competition
    in comparison to the recent past.  Pateman's p_name, "Ayrton Senna -
    World Tour 1991" about sums it up: The new McHonda is a raw piece still
    under development, with a ton of potential, that is already dominate
    in terms of ower, tractability and, above all, reliability.  The only 
    historical flaw with the McHonda - being slow on fast corners - seems 
    to've finally been solved.  
    
    It's reasonable to expect Senna to win 13 races this year.  
    
    One observation on Senna: He's very good, maybe even great, but he's
    certainly overrated based on the glut of eye-popping dastisticks (tm)
    he's posted (# poles, # wire-to-wire wins, etc.) because he's driving
    the most dominant car ever.   The two years he *did* have competition,
    against Prost, he went only 1-for-1.  Moreover, a strong case could be
    made that last year, when the McHonda was at its least dominant in 
    recent years, it took a good deal of unsportsmanlike conduct on the 
    part of Senna and Berger to win the Driver's.
    
    I'd like to see what Senna can do without such a massive advantage,
    but very much doubt that will be possible this year.
    
    We're back to where we were two and three years ago: Watching and 
    rooting for the Driver's and Constructor's Championships in the non-
    McHonda class.  Trouble is, the McHonda class, with Berger in and 
    Prost out, is effectively uncontested now.
    
    MrT

    I sadly must agree with MrT.  There's no logical reason to expect
    McHonda to "fade."  Their engine and chassis are practically all new,
    so should have lots of development potential.  Further performance
    gains will come from a semi-auto, refined aerodynamics and (maybe) from
    active suspension.
    
    The chassis is easily a match for the Williams; it's hard to see a
    Renault 10 (or Ford 8!) matching a Honda 12; Ferrari admit to having
    gone for incremental improvements when they should have gone all-out to
    complete their new car; only Prost has all the qualities necessary to
    compete with Senna over a full season, and he clearly does not have the
    car he needs to compete.
    
    So how do my fellow noters see Senna and McHonda failing?  I'd love to
    be proven a pessimist.  As it is, I'll miss Imola this Sunday -- but I
    probably won't miss it very much.
    
    Looking forward to Mercedes moving to F-1,
    
    Don 

    I've got to take issue with you Mr T and all others who think McSenna
    will walk it this year)!! I don't buy it at all. I admit that they are
    a VERY professional team and will be striving mightily to do exactly
    what you believe they will accomplish BUT I think also that over the
    last couple of years their dominance has eroded from "complete" (1988,
    when Senna/Prost won 15/16 between them) to "heavy" (1989, when the
    same pair won "only" 10/16) to "slight" (1990, when Senna/McLaren won 6 
    to Ferrari's 6 - Prost 5, Mansell 1).
    
    Williams have a car that is, at the present stage of development,
    considered by many to have the slight edge, especially now that they
    believe they have cured the electronic gremlins in the unique
    transverse semi-auto box. Benetton's new B191 will certainly be no
    sloucht either while Ferrari have the potential.
    
    Senna is undoubtedly the most brilliant (in all aspects of the word)
    driver around today BUT, as was pointed out in a recent note, he has to
    resort to wringing the car's neck (or barging others out of the way) to
    get to the top podium slot. In other words, he is being made to work
    ever harder for his wins and we all know how many boo-boos he has made
    under pressure. The more pressure, the more boo-boos! Berger is one of
    the top 6 drivers but is just not in the same class - he shows up the
    warts on the car. After all, he managed wins in both his years at
    Ferrari, a feat which he has been unable to duplicate in the McLaren
    "Supercar".
    
    >>> It's reasonable to expect Senna to win 13 races this year. <<<
    
    Naw! He was VERY lucky to pick up Interlagos - THAT was no cruise. I
    think Imola will be a Williams benefit, both Patrese and Mansell being
    right up there in terms of competitiveness and hunger for the win. Bad
    luck Senna fans - this is the beginning of the end....

    Re a few back....
    
    Its still 10 points for a win, FISA withdrew the press release about
    going back to 9 points.
    
    Also....
    
    Johansson has been dropped by the new Italian owners of AGS and has
    been replaced by Fabrio Barbazza from the Crypton F3000 team. Alboreto
    is doubtful after 14 stitches, regular Footwork replacement Schneider
    is tied up with IMSA so Palmer is supposedly a possible.
    
    Paul

    re.341
    Should be amusing to see Palmer back in a F1 car after all the trouble
    he appears to be causing in the sports car championship.
    I believe one of the comments from his recent first lap dismisal stated
    that he was out of touch and a hazard.
    
    Has anyone any news on the Leyton House shake-up and the new Ilmor
    engine,how is it performing.
    
    steve
    

>    Should be amusing to see Palmer back in a F1 car after all the trouble
>    he appears to be causing in the sports car championship.
>    I believe one of the comments from his recent first lap dismisal stated
>    that he was out of touch and a hazard.

did anyone see the race on Sunday grandstand (bbc2) when he crashed out in his
M3 taking another with him (twice)
anyone catch what the (female) driver said to him after he forced her off the
track?

...art

argh!
MARVINs node database is out of date - I'm not GRUMPY really :-)

    It will be interesting to see what the revised Ferrari 642 will do
    Sunday. The engineers have moved the radiators to the back and,
    surprise, surprise, Prost and Alesi have cracked super lap times.

    
    Rathole, but Nettan Lindgren seemed to be asking Palmer what he
    thought he was doing! She was quoted in MN as now seeing why he wasn't
    in F1 anymore! :^)
    
    Mark

	Whilst it seems to me that Senna must be hot favourite for
	the championship on the form so far I have no trouble in
	envisaging Williams and Benetton getting the better of 
	McLaren. The V12 doesn't seem to be the right way to be
	going at present, and there may be more development potential
	in the other cars.

	So Ferrari have engineered an improvement too. Well that makes
	8 cars in with a reasonable shout. Should be a good race then.
	Of course the Benetton is still an unknown quantity, I've heard
	no reports of performance in testing as yet, but Barnard does
	have a record.

	-John

    Yaaay Ferrari!
    
    		George Frost
    

	If there's one thing more biased and blinkered than a Mansell
	supporter it's a Ferrariste.

	-John

    Re-349
    
    Actually it is Ferraristi, and you are right there is nothing more
    biased or blinkered (not sure what blinkered means)
    :-)
    Ferrari 1-2 on Sunday!!!!!!
    Regards,
    FCGT 

    re: 349,351
    
    
    	I support the driver and in this case Prost drives for Ferrari.
    
    	Previous support went to McLaren and prior to that, Renault.
    
    	Actually I do love Ferrari's - pound to a pinch of ????? noter 349
    	would rather own 1 Ferrari than 10 Honda's.
    
    		George Frost
    
    
    	

	Typical red mist stuff there.

	My knowledge of Anglo-Italian autosport terminology is not 
	perhaps perfect but I did think that "Ferrariste" was singular,
	and "Ferraristi" the plural. When Ferraristi gather together
	at a shrine for worship this larger group is known as the
	"Tifosi". Tifosi gatherings take place two or three times a
	year but rarely are the wishes granted.

	Blinkers are a sort of eyeshade sometimes fitted to racehorses.
	These only allow the horse to see forwards and not observe the
	opposition. This is thought to be good because the horse always
	thinks it's winning because it can't see how well the opposition
	is doing.

	-John

    Well I guess I'm blinkered then,  I follow the team and cheer for
    whoever is driving for them.
    
    Again a 1-2 for Ferrari on Sunday
    
    :-)

    	There is an interview with Patrese in MN this week and he says that
    he is not motivated by having the most number of GP starts but by the
    fact that he drives for one of the three top teams and has the best
    chance ever of achieving his dream of becoming WC!
    
    	He also says that they half expected problems with the gearbox,
    considering how radical it is and how little testing they have managed
    to do with it but that they are confident that the problems (electronic
    and not mechanical) will be sorted out before Imola.
    
    	Anyone know if AGS are at their swansong? Liquidation seems likely
    for the team. Shame, as they were one of the best of the rest a few
    short years ago...
    
    Cheers,
    	Colin

    Colin,
    
    AGS are saved (see a few back) by a buy out fron some Italians who are
    also running the Italian America's Cup challenge. 
    
    Jokes about which is faster - the car or the boat are to be
    discouraged.
    
    Paul

    Imola
    
    Prequalified:
    
    De Cesaris		Jordan
    Jarvilehto		Dallara
    Gachot		Jordan
    Van de Poele        Lambo
    
    Failed to prequalify:
    
    Pirro		Dallara
    Grouillard		Fomet
    Larini		Lambo
    Chaves		Coloni

    Just read Senna interviewed by french Auto Hebdo and new Course Auto
    saying :
    
    - the MP4/6 is far from being set properly
    - new Honda V12 is not up to my expectations (as good as competition
      but no better)
    - the only reason I won the first 2 races is a combination of luck +
      driving ability
    
    Also read Berger declaring something like : being in the same team as
    world champion and not winning races is a problem. Senna can switch to
    Williams, Ferrari, Benetton and be world champion. I can't.
    
    Very honest view. Typical Berger.

    >I've got to take issue with you Mr T and all others who think
    >McSenna will walk it this year...
    
    I hope you're right and I'm wrong.  But, after the last four 
    years it's hard to ignore the development capabilities of Honda,
    and the fact that the car is at the beginning of its cycle.  
    
    I'm hoping for a great race Sunday.  I'd like to see Mansell &
    Senna dicing for 20 laps, and then suddenly they *both* make 
    characteristic aggressive driving errors simulataneously and crash,
    and then... Ricardo leads until the last few laps when his scrubbed
    up tires give way to Le Profeseur, who'd been as far back as 7th
    but nursed his Ferrari to overtake the Williams.
    
    Check that: To make this fantasy perfect the Senna-Mansell crash
    has gotta happen in the pits, with Mansell it's a matter of proper
    time and place, y'know... ;^)
    
    MrT 

MrT, got to disagree :-)

I agree with .-2's comments from Senna. He *just* managed to finish in Brazil
holding the car and himself together. This race, and some of the comments I
have read from him have made me revise my estimates of the man. In my view
he is a considerably better driver than he was 2 years ago. Also, further
evidence of his ability is the difference between himself and Berger in
the same car with the same motor.

Please don't mistake McLaren for Honda. McLaren were winning GPs and WCs with
Ford and Porsche engines long before Honda put an engine in their cars, and
long after Honda's abortive attempts at doing it all themselves in the 1960's.

I'm not questioning the ability of the engine, but there is a hell of a lot more
to winning GPs consistantly than a good motor.

    I understand all that.  But a dominant motor, *totally* dominant
    as in $600-700 million, can make up for a lot of problems with 
    aerodynamics, suspension setup, and engine tuning.  The key thing
    is the utter reliability of these engines.
    
    Honda goes 1-2 in a procession at Imola.  Sure, one can reach and
    talk about Prost's parade lap spin or Patrese's breakdown, but over
    three or four years of racing it's become obvious that there is the
    Honda and there are the rest.
    
    And I wouldn't look so much at the difference between Senna and 
    Berger as I would the difference between Berger and Prost.  Btw, 
    Senna ran an advanced engine not available to Gerhard at Imola.
    
    Honda has just begun race condition development of the V-12 (as
    evidenced by the "high tourque" version run by Senna) and I take
    his bitching about wanting the V-10 back and lack of power more an
    indication of marketing the ticket-buying public and/or pressuring
    his Japanese masters than any indication of forthcoming wheel-to-
    wheel competition, which we may not see at all this year.
    
    Honda is 3-for-3 so far, 13 wins is looking more and more realistic
    as a possibility.  Senna has 3 times as many points as his next 
    closest competitor.
    
    MrT
    
    

    Whatever we think of Senna there is no denying he had a *great* drive
    yesterday. Ok, the opposition should be lined up against the wall
    and shot (Prost, Alesi especially) but the way Senna was going 
    through traffic yesterday was impressive. It certainly got him
    clear of that wimp Berger 8-)
    
    But don't get too excited about the Fins... Letho is a great driver
    but his car isn't up to much and probably won't feature again this
    year. 

    George...
    
    I'm not surprised you're not in yet...
    
    still warming up I suppose!! :-)
    
    The Senna steamroller rolls on to Monaco, anybody seriously gonna bet
    against him there?
    
    Paul

    
    Yawwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn....
    
    Obviously this is Senna's testimonial year and none of the opposition
    are going to upset it by providing any competition.
    
    Mark
    
    PS pity about Patrese, I still reckon Williams are going to win a race
    or 3 soon. How about Monaco?

    True Mark... Patresse was "the business".... For about 10 laps 8-)

    Yesterday brought back a flood of memories of racing in the 60's and
    earlier. It always seemed that at any one moment, one car was
    dominant....Mercedes, Alfaromeo, Ferrari..... and the racing was always
    one car one driver and the pack. In short as Mr. Saxby says
    boooorrrrrring to most but still very interesting for the dedicated F1
    nut.
    
    I really was most disappointed when 10 laps into the race ALL
    contenders had dropped out - almost a car per lap. That said I still
    would not rule out Ferrari this season. I really do believe that Prost
    has been badly hit by the luck bug. To go out like that must be a first 
    for him. 
    
    Any information out there as to why he went out? 
    
    Seems to me that Alesi pushed his luck on the outside to get passed 
    Modena (or is it Moreno), slid to the edge of the track then did something
    silly....perhaps gearbox?
    
    I don't think anybody will be able to touch Senna at Monaco, so roll on
    France and the rest.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Why did Prost retire?
    
    Because he was going too fast for a tricky track. 'Le Professeur'
    should have been using the parade lap to check out the circuit
    conditions instead of whizzing around with his head in the clouds.
    
    Senna and 'journeyman' Patrese had already passed through the wet
    track so why didn't Prost deal with it. The spray wasn't significant
    at that point. Prost made a boo-boo. Say what you like about Alesi, but 
    at least he went off racing! (Personally I'd say "What a mistaka to
    maka" about his decision to ruin his career by going to Ferrari. Stars-
    in-the-eyes-itis I'd say :^)).
    
    Mark

    	I bow to those who submit to the possibility of a McLaren 16/16
    this year!! When the oppo all falls apart in 10 laps, leaving the
    McLarens to lap the entire field, it's headbanging time....
    
    	Mansell had gearbox problems on the grid so it was raher
    unsurprising that he should get bugged getting off the line! Prost's
    spin was unfortunate but how come he managed to stall the engine and
    not restart it again?? Alesi's self-inflicted injury was exactly what
    Senna would have done a couple of years ago - racing for every corner
    as though it were the last!! In contrast, Senna dropped right away from
    Patrese until the worst of the spray was gone and then gently reeled
    him in ..... magic stuff, very impessive. Bad luck on Riccardo but,
    even without the gremlins, it wasn't his day.
    
    	The rest were alsorans even though it is good to see the Dallaras,
    Minardis and Lotuses of this world in the points from time to time.
    
    	As for Monaco, it all depends on the start! If a Patrese or Alesi
    can get in front going up the hill then in just might be possible...
    I really think Williams are in for a couple of wins this year, though.
    Tey have appalling bad luck so far and the car is ultra competitive -
    it's just not reliable!
    
    Colin

    Now now Mr. Saxby, I could confidently wager that 90% of F1 drivers
    would love to race for Ferarri. A lot of world champions have gone
    through that school.....even Senna has made serious noises about going
    there.
    
    On Saturday French TV showed some good coverage of Imola, Enzio Ferarri's 
    villa at the circuit, after work showers for the drivers etc., etc.
    Very interesting stuff. I suppose that it is the history and remanent
    glory of the Ferrari story, particularly the F1 record, that makes the
    company a family with superb pedigree.
    
    A very funny (if one likes that kind of humour) remark made by one of
    the tifosi in the Ferarri bar in Imola, was his 'ideal' combination for
    the team;
    	
    	Senna principal driver, Alesi second driver, Prost technical
        manager. 
    
     
    
    			George Frost

    
    No worry Mr Frost, 
    
    I've nothing against Ferrari, but a number of good drivers do seem to
    have faded to nothing after a spell at Ferrari (Stefan Johnansson,
    Michele Alboreto and even Gerhard Berger to an extent). Only Mansell
    escaped unscathed and then probably only because he had Williams
    waiting to greet him back like the prodigal son.
    
    There is a lot of pressure on Ferrari drivers, if they do well they 
    are idolised (Mansell, for instance) by the Tifosi, but if not they
    are cruelly criticised and publicly humiliated, regardless of where
    the fault lies. Murray Walker commented before Imola that Fiorio was
    out of favour and Prost was in. I wonder how things look now? :^)
    
    I'm sure that most drivers would like to drive for Ferrari, but as
    Nannini proved last year it isn't quite as sought after a drive as
    it once was. Maybe the pressure on the driver is now seen as more
    than the rewards.
    
    I expect Senna would survive a spell at Ferrari, whatever happened,
    but what has he to prove. For an up and coming driver (as Alesi 
    obviously is/was) only success at Ferrari bodes well for the future.
    Failure could spell obscurity, and so far all Alesi has to show is 
    failure.
    
    Mark

    Now I've got a bit more time...
    
    Yup, it was rather boring when it became to Ayrton & Gerhard show, but
    there was plenty of action further down the field. Quite a few teams
    can take some consolation from the race who didn't finish in the
    points:
    
    Benetton - Moreno was astrong third, but the car needs miles
    
    Leyton House - Capelli had clearly gone very well to get up to 5th
    before he cooked it, and Gugelmin went virtually a race distance.
    
    Jordan & Lambo will surely be in the points soon
    
    However, with the prequalifying shake up just 5 races away, there are 4
    teams currently "safe" who haven't scored any points since the second
    half of last season -
    
    AGS
    Ligier
    Brabham
    Footwork
    
    Of those, AGS and Footwork don't look likely too either. Dallara have
    already got 4 points on the board so should get out, and Jordan and
    Lambo are good bets as well.
    
    Anybody else noticed the smaller numbers of finishers in the first few
    races? The multitude of new car/engine combinations seem to be making
    things fragile. As for Ferrari, Prost made a pillock of himself, but
    what are the odds he just didn't fancy racing in the rain? As for
    Alesi, yet another immature performance, and in front of the tifosi
    too. The Observer had news to the effect that Senna is starting to get
    popular with young Italians who don't live on Ferrari's former glories,
    they recognise a *real* champion when they see one.
    
    Finally, I do tire of all the comments about XYZ Team needing more
    miles on the car. The McHonda won straight out the box, and has now won
    3 in a row. Does that need more miles to get competitive and reliable?
    
    Paul

    
    Re .376
    
    The fact that these cars need more miles before they are competitive 
    merely proves that there are too many teams in F1 who shouldn't be 
    there!
    
    Mark

    
    Dear old Murray Walker. All that excitement about a "wonderful" result
    for Lotus.
    
    How many times were they lapped...........?
    

	At least the television director had the good sense to
	follow the action down the field, which I thought was
	quite interesting. These teams are all looking for points
	to escape prequalifying and there won't be many races
	where they get a look in. Great pity that Van De Poele
	didn't quite make it having fought through pre-qualifying
	and spent the whole race duelling with other cars. But it
	was still a good debut.

	The Benetton is a great disappointment. Apparently they had
	so much trouble with it that they managed only 15 mins each
	of qualifying. But worse still it's so ugly/ungainly looking.
	The front has been copied from Tyrrell and the car seems also
	to have copied the twitchiness too. Appears to be a lap slower
	than the old car. They deserve everything that they got really
	since they should have done the sensible thing and run the
	old cars until the new one is sorted.

	Prost's failure to keep his engine running and regain the 
	circuit really was a poor show to say the least. I wonder if
	the automatic gearbox has an influence here. With the normal
	variety you can get neutral very easily but maybe not with a
	sliding car and several gears to pass through?.

	I can't remember Piquet ever finishing a wet race, so his 
	departure was no surprise.

	Niether was Mansell's. When is he going to learn that trying
	to do 200mph in first gear before changing isn't a good idea
	with auto boxes, or any other for that matter.

	Benetton and Williams are clearly plagued by the the yellow 
	peril. Williams do better because they've got less of it than
	Benetton.

	Monaco will be closer, because Monaco always is closer. It will
	also offer an opportunity for some of the lesser teams to shine
	more brightly. Dallara, Jordan and Lotus look good to show well
	on the tight twisty bits.

	-John

    Re Lotus
    
    They were lapped 3 times, but, let's be honest, they were the most
    exciting things on the circuit and they weren't far off the other
    mid-field runners pace either. As John said Lotus need points to
    avoid pre-qualifying so 5th and 6th IS a great result for the team.
    
    Thanks IS due to the director. I'd rather watch dicing for 10th and
    11th than Senna droning around any day!
    
    Mark

After watching yesterday's race, I have reluctantly to admire Senna's driving
ability (and McLaren's technical ability), although it's all very boring.

BUT.....

I have to say that Senna's driving tactics are at best bullying, and at worst
downright dangerous. The way he muscles his way past cars, often on chicanes or
sharp wiggles, makes him a liability in my book. I know that lower-order drivers
should keep out of the way, but if I were making my way around the track to the
best of my ability and that of my car, I wouldn't expect to be forced out of the
way on a tight double bend, while probably doing about 100 mph and already 
committed to a certain line in order just to stay on the track..... and all this
on a wet (though drying) track.

I thought Stefano Modena gave Senna a dose of his own medicine, when they pulled
out simultaneously to overtake the same car, and then James Hunt accused Modena
of "amateurish driving", or something, which I thought was unfair. To me, Modena
had every right to overtake the slower driver when he did: why should he move
over immediately for Senna if he's reasonably competitive?

If Senna carries on like he is, sooner or later he'll cause a fatal crash: it's
about time he was given a stiff warning against using over-aggressive, and even
dangerous, driving tactics.


SD

    
    Senna looks to have quietened down a lot to me in the last 15 months.
    
    Mark

I'm no fan of Senna, but he was in no way to blame for what happened with 
Modena. He had been developing a passing position, and should have been quite
visable (the spray having subsided). While it may be said that Senna is 
agressive in his treatment of backmarkers, I seem to recall earlier in the
race, he used that same aggression to pull out distance on Berger while they
both came up against a couple of backmarkers. Berger took the conservative
approach and lost time. In the end that's why he's a second place driver....

The onus has to be on slower drivers to keep out of the way of faster 
circulating traffic. 

Just an opinion of course.....

Terry

    Re -2
    
    Did you see the same race as the rest of us? Senna drove an exemplary
    race, I don't recall any "bullying tactics". After Modena chopped him
    (which Hunt put down to not seeing him not amateurism) he stayed back
    for quite a while before making his move. Also, as someone else said,
    he deployed excellent tactics when behind Patrese.
    
    What is someone supposed to do when trying to pass, wait patiently for
    the car in front to move over or expire, or go for an overtake at a
    legitimate point such as outbraking for a tight corner?
    
    Sounds like a case of sour grapes over an excellent performance (if
    somewhat dull) and a total c*ck up by the mob from Modena.
    
    Paul

    Ooops

    Modena was:
    
    a) competitive.
    b) a lap down.
    
    He shouldn't really have done that to Senna... But then again I'm
    sure Senna wouldn't have thought twice if he'd been driving the
    Tyrell.
    
    Alls well that ends well... Must admit though, my heart missed a
    beat at the prospect of our favourite driver being vapourised
    as the world looked on 8-)

    Oh well I was partly correct.
    
    Ferrari wins 1-2 should have read... Ferrari goes out 1-2.	;-(
    
    What a boring race, it's too bad most of Senna's competion went out
    almost right away.  I don't mind Senna winning but at least with the
    Ferraris, Williams etc. cars their is at least a little bit of racing.
    
    I must comment that Senna is deffinately driving cleaner than ever
    before.  I hate to say it but he deserved the win (it just would have
    been nice to see some chalenges).
    
    Oh well there is always Monte Carlo, as a matter of fact lets predict
    an Alesi win.		;-)

    Funny, Paul, but the American announcers seemed to share SD's
    opinion...  at least as far as saying that Senna doesn't play
    his backmarker tactics smart in that he takes first swipe at
    them regardless of the situation (they noted this after he had
    a near miss buzzing past a much slower car, not Modena).
    
    Senna's a genius when he gets away with it; he's the same mistake-
    prone beneficiary of Honda's half billion when he doesn't.
    
    MrT

RE -2 (or was it -3 :-) )

Sorry, I only stated an opinion...

As I mentioned, sour grapes doesn't enter into it. After the last race, when
Senna started losing ground and nearly got caught, I put his victory down to
luck...then heard that he'd been suffering from cramp (or whatever) for the last
part of the race and had driven on guts. In that light, his victory that time
was a feat of courage.

All I was saying was that, in my view, Senna overtakes in places that force
other drivers to take evasive action, not just to allow him to pass. I guess I'm
not an expert, though....

BTW, no-one can argue with a chassis/driver combination that is clearly leagues
ahead of the opposition, so hats off to Senna/McLaren for that.



SD

I was so wrong in my prediction for Imola (only one of my six drivers finished!)
that I am confident that this result will not happen at Monaco;

1. Mansell  :-)
2. Senna
3. Berger
4. Patrese
5. Prost
6. Piquet

/Dave.

	Re. .390

	If Mansell finishes at Monaco, it'll be because Williams fire
	him.

	-John

    re -2
    
    That proposed rule makes so much sense that it has no chance of even
    being seriously considered, let alone actually implemented.  
       
    MrT

    John,
    
    	Quit sniping at Mansell quite so outrageously. He's still one of
    the top 6 DRIVERS, no matter what you think of him or his
    "gearbox-breaking" tactics! Give us a rest...
    
    	My prediction for Monaco? Senna on pole, Senna leads into first
    corner, Senna wins. I just wonder who will cause the junkyard this
    year, and where?!
    
    Colin

    Re last
    
    Fully agree about Senna at Monaco, the only problem being that over the
    past few years, Prost has shown a nasty habit of winning GPs that the
    other half and I attend, and we're going to Monaco.....
    
    Still, in reality, I can't see Senna losing. By some mental sums last
    night, I reckon he'll be Champion after Hungary if he keeps winning.
    That assumes Berger continues to finish runner up. If other drivers
    take the six points then it'll be earlier. ;-)
    
    But seriously folks, the Williams is clearly number 2 this year. when
    the gearbox is reliable they will give McLaren a serious race. Ferrari
    are in headless chicken mode "change this, change that" etc, and
    Benetton are clearly a ways from having a sorted car.
    
    In the second division, Tyrrell are coming to grips with the Honda and
    should be regular top 6ers, and Jordan & Dallara will be up there too.
    I also hold out hopes for Leyton House as the season progresses, and
    Lotus should do well enough to secure a good deal on engines and
    sponsors next year *if* they can hang onto Hakkinnen. Mika's progress
    makes it all the more disappointing that Mika II (Salo) couldn't get a
    decent F3000 drive in Europe for this year. He ran Mika I a good race
    in F3 last season.
    
    I'd be surprised to see much of a Ferrari improvement before France.
    Monaco doesn't suit the car, neither does Montreal and they are
    unlikely to take too much evolutionary stuff on the N American road
    trip.
    
    Looking forward to Sunday 12th....
    
    Paul

is Sennas performance (winning first 3 races) this season a first in GP history? 



...art

	I don't think so, didn't Fangio do it (and no, I cannot remember the
	year)?

	Dave

    C'mon you all out there, a bit of straight thinking.
    
    McLaren/Honda have done wonderfully well this season, there's no
    denying. Senna has matured - but thats what we've all been hoping for
    these last two years.
    
    Williams have come on very well as a result of both chassis and motor.
    
    Benetton need more time and all that comes with it.
    
    Ferrari are in-between cars (although the current 642 should have done
    the trick.
    
    We all hoped for real competition at Imola and were treated to a nasty
    trick of the weather and incredibly bad luck for all concerned, except
    McLaren and the runners-up.  
    It really is not time to rule out a good competitive season...I'm
    looking forward to it.
    
    Just a thought - Senna does not have the temperament to stay with a car
    that does nothing but win. He likes competition?
    
    		George Frost
    

    There is a more and more persistent rumor that Honda will leave F1 at
    the end of THIS season. Supporting facts:
    
    - choice of BMW MOTORSPORT V12 for the McLaren Road car
    - Ron Dennis "stole" Osamu Goto from Honda
    
    Williams lost the Honda engine for far less.

    I understand that Mansell's retirement was due to him getting shunted. 
    The shunt was caused by his gearbox selecting neutral, slowing the car
    unexpectedly.  Apparently, he was having gearbox problems on the grid.
    
    John

    re: .403
    
    I thought that Honda would leave in mid season '90 or at most some time
    this season. Hence imminent change of place for Senna.
    
    		George Frost

    How about this for an interesting scenario.
    
    Honda gets out of F1 and leaves MacLaren without an engine.
    Just as Senna is looking for a new ride Ferrari gets rid of Prost (or
    he retires to run his own group)
    Senna then joins Ferrari mid way and brings the #1 back Italy.
    
    Wouldn't that be interesting.  BTW would he keep his points if he
    changes half way through.
    
    It would also be interesting if he started winning with exactly the
    same car Prost couldn't win with.
    
    Just imagine......
                      

    Senna is definitely looking at 
    
    - McLaren with whatever engine they may be using next year
    - Williams for obvious reasons
    - Ferrari
    
    Saturday, at Imola, he's had very strong words with McLaren in front of
    the press. Sounded very much like Prost ...

    vindicated at last......deja vu.
    
    		George Frost

    re: 407 (and some others)
    What on earth does Senna have to complain about?
    
    re:  several back, on looking forward to a good competitive year (Mr
    Frost, I believe) -- I hope you are right, but on what do you base your
    belief?  There's no reason to believe the Williams transmission will
    suddenly come right.  Ferrari have struggeld with theirs for over 2
    years; one of the principal engineers behind it joined McLaren many
    months ago and theirs has yet to appear; Barnard surely knows a good
    deal about auto-box tech and the Benneton has yet to show with one.
    
    The US mag On Track reports that Fiat "Central Research" have suggested
    improvements to the Ferrari 12, but that Ferrari engineers are too
    jealous to accept them.  
    
    A question to our European noters:  Is there any discussion about what
    F1 says about the relative merits of its main corporate supporters?  By
    that I mean, does anyone note that after 2+ years of trying, the
    technical might (AND MONEY) of Ford, Fiat, and Renault have made a
    rather small dent in Honda?  
    
    On the "chaos" at Ferrari -- that's almost SOP.  However, the car
    seemed reasonably competitive in qualifying, and the "organization" can
    hardly be blamed for Prost and Alesi going off.
    
    ESPN commentators admitted the race was a bore, and also noted that
    Honda domination tends to scare off potential entrants -- they named
    Nissan and Toyota as companies staying out of F1 because Honda had
    upped the ante unreasonably high.
    
    Several notes back someone noted that Lotus had been exciting or had
    done a good job (sorry it's late) -- yet they were LAPS behind!  For
    me, that sums up F1 this year:  there is no "racing" in an F1 race.
    
    Still hoping to be proven a hopeless negativist,
    
    Don

RE .408

The garbled story that I heard goes something like this - anyone else got
anything else to add to it?

Senna was really angry on Saturday because Berger beat him in the wet practice.
Apparently McLaren decided to give the new evolution Honda motor to whoever
was fastest on Friday - so Senna got it. On Friday, Berger had switched to the
T-car because his was playing up. They only have one T-car...

On Saturday Berger stuck with the T-car because he was happier with it, and
then Senna started having problems with his car - possibly the new engine
installation. He wanted to switch; however Berger had the T-car, and Gerhard
wouldn't let Senna have his race car. 

Senna threw a wobbler about the professionalism of the team - management
should sort it out etc. etc. It all degenerated into a childrens kindergarten -
"Ayrton's got the new motor so I want the spare chassis" type of thing.

Cheers

Steve

    
    I think that the TV was responsible for making the race 'boring'.
    Admittedly they did spend more time on the racers further down the
    field than they usually do, but very often they are guilty of just
    watching the front runners, and forgetting thst there are any other
    cars in the race. As Derek said, there are often 'life or death'
    struggles going on down the field. For these drivers/teams, they
    are racing the car that beat them last time - _not_ Senna/Prost etc.
    
    

    As a long time F1 and CART fan, I find it amusing that FISA is spending
    so much time trying to keep CART in North America - too bad they don't
    work as hard at getting parity in F1 - I'd love to see Honda, Ford,
    Nissan, Toyota, etc. go at each other - while I am facinated by the
    technology in F1, the racing has been pretty boring during many races
    in the past few years - CART continues to have a lot of close races ...
    
    Chris

    Re Senna/Berger
    
    The problem wasn't that Berger wouldn't let go of his race car, but
    that it had to be heavily adjusted to suit Senna. This cost a lot of
    time, and meant Ayrton was late out.
    
    Re Close racing in Cart
    
    Give me a break! The only reason there is close racing in CART is
    because of the boring processions during yellow flag laps when the
    whole field closes up. We get most CART races live or edited on cable
    and they are generally pretty tedious with only a couple of competitive
    cars. Also, I find oval racing *incredibly* boring (I accept it may be
    better live but - ) 200 laps with the foot buried in the metal, no late
    braking, yellows on the slightest incident? Give me F1 anytime.
    
    Paul

    Autosport has got details of the prequalifying line up after Imola:
    
    Teams in order, since Hockenheim '90
    
    1	McLaren
    2	Ferrari
    3	Benetton
    4	Williams
    5	Tyrrell
    6	Lotus
    7	BMS-Dallara
    8	Minardi
    9	Larrousse
    10	L/House
    --------------------- Points scorers
    11	Modena (Best = 1 x 7th)
    12	Ligier (Best = ??) - they may be higher than this?
    13	AGS (Best = 1 x 8th)
    ---------------------- Pre-Qualifiers
    14	Brabham
    15	Footwork
    16/17/18	Fomet, Jordan, Coloni (not sure of the order)
    
    As stated earlier, Jordan must be a good bet to move up the list, at
    the expense of AGS, and  Brabham may climb back. However, things look
    bleak for Footwork.
    
    Paul	

    F1 racing has to be the most international circuit motor sport in that
    at least eight manufacturing nations are involved, god knows how many
    nationalities amongst the competitors, fourteen odd circuits in as many
    countries, eight or nine support languages, as many currencies...........
    
    All this in a single melting pot of the fastest and arguably most
    skilled motor sport competition in the world. The result is a very large 
    public that normally enjoys a very good weekend's gamut of emotion.
    
    "Looking forward to a very competitive season" - sure I am. Phoenix and 
    Brasil (particularly) had me on the edge of my seat. To anticipate the 
    end of the cliff hangars at this stage really is not justified.
    
    Imola really was a series of catastophies for almost all (including McLaren)
    teams, but which left Senna and Berger riding high on their almost
    sinister string of good luck. I hope for them that it continues, it will
    certainly rub off on other teams who need it. 
    But the season is certainly not over. The 'also did not runs' at Imola
    will make certain of that.
    
    
    		George Frost
    
    
    

    Senna has been complaining about his current team on the following
    points :
    
    - Honda V12 engine : under expectations (what Honda promised) in terms
                         of peak hp and torque
    - McLaren chassis  : already at end of development, no more things to
                         play with, no potential for improvement
    
    Senna is known to be re-establishing contact with Williams. What failed
    during last summer might succeed this year. The real unkown is about
    McLaren and Honda.

    Nothing on that but this made me chuckle.
    
    
    from Autosport.
    
    
    
    o Jean-marie Balestra caused a red flag to be shown in the pratice for
    the historic race supporting the San Marino Grand Prix. The FISA
    president landed his helecopter on the main straight rather than on 
    the nearby heliport. 
    
    It is reported that the racer were not very impressed.
    
    
    
    	Garry
    

    If Senna went to Williams there would be hell to pay.

I don't understand Senna's reported comments about the new McLaren chassis.

Does this indicate that he doesn't have much of an idea when it comes to setting
up a car ?

 
>    Give me a break! The only reason there is close racing in CART is
>    because of the boring processions during yellow flag laps when the
>    whole field closes up. 

It's true there are yellows and that they close the portion of the field
that's on the same lap, but they're generally only a small part of the
race - especially the road races.  The trade off between a two minute 
yellow some consider to be well worth the close finishes almost unheard
of in modern F1 racing.

The primary reason for all the close racing in CART isn't yellows (usually
top 2-6 cars are on one another by F1 standards *before* the backmarker
crashes)... it's the fact that about 1/3 of the field is on more or less
even terms, with them trying to beat one another through better preparation
and real-time race tactics.  
    
If CART started running their fast and close races on F1 circuits in 
Europe, I bet that after awhile a lotta Europeans would take notice and 
fill the stands.  People tend to like 25 lap dogfights.
    
>   We get most CART races live or edited on cable
>   and they are generally pretty tedious with only a couple of competitive
>   cars. 

This year there are, oh, I'd say about ten cars that can win any race.  
Not cars that could win *if* superior cars met bad luck, but cars that 
could win on even terms.  Compare that to F1, which has had pretty much 
just two (guess which two) the past four years.  Most of the excitement in
F1 the past several years has been over whether the McHonda's stranglehold
might actually be broken that week.  Ferrari showed some flashes, the rest
have been non-competitive except under extraordinarily lucky circumstances.

>   Also, I find oval racing *incredibly* boring (I accept it may be
>   better live but - ) 200 laps with the foot buried in the metal, no late
>   braking, yellows on the slightest incident? Give me F1 anytime.
    
Don't criticze what you don't know.  Oval racing can be very exciting.
One sees most of the course for starters, and beyond that the cars see
one another constantly and at close quarters.  Oval racing is much more 
subtle than road course racing (especially the sad-sack street courses),
but it requires some experience watching to appreciate.  Where there is no
late braking they play grooves (high/low, early/late) to the nth degree.
Oval racing is extremely dangerous.  One of the most exciting races, 
anywhere, in recent racing history was the late race showdown between 
Al Unser Jr. and Fittipaldi.  Wheel-to-wheel through turns at 210 MPH, 
the crowd (of 450,000) was on its feet screaming for 15 minutes non-stop.
I've never seen anything close to approaching that level of frantic excitement 
at a F1 race.  Part of the charm of ovals is the knowledge among fans and
drivers alike that the slightest mistake will send a car at 200 MPH + 
hurtling into a 3 foot thick reinforced concrete block wall.  That keeps the
adrenaline going all around.

Upon hearing that Senna's interested in racing ovals, some CART drivers 
welcomed the competition, but hinted that his silly-assed crash tactics
would either get him a broken jaw in the pits or killed on a wall.  The
tear-prone Ayrton may not be up to this sort of racing.

Also, 500 mile races compare well with these sprints in F1.  A guy gets a
jump, even goes out two laps, but everybody knows that it's unlikely he'll
be able to sustain the gap because of a variety of factors the nature of
the race involve not seen otherwise.  Things tend to even up.  The fans dig
it cuz they get to track the closing in of the comers.  In F1 the McHonda
wins the pole, usually takes the first turn (or takes 2nd and then takes
first within 3-4 laps), and then pulls out to 30-40 seconds only to dial
down to win by 20 seconds or so.

It's become a script.  F1 fandom of late has been more about technology 
and the *hope* for competition than about balls-to-the-wall competition.
   
MrT

    Re Last
    
    Good case well argued! As I said, I'm sure Oval racing is better live
    than on the box, in fact we're hoping to visit Charlotte or Daytona for
    NASCAR next year. (I know its not CART but I just cannot get enthused
    about what I still consider to be second rate F1 cars!)
    
    As for excitement at races, well, I accept that the US ones are a
    little lacking, but try visiting Silverstone when mansell is on a
    charge, then you'll see the famous "people power" effect that gives
    "our Nige" an extra 2 secs/lap.
    
    Where CART does win out over F1 is professionalism. I would back most
    of the F1 drivers to beat the average CART driver (Willy T Ribbs??, AJ
    Foyt at 50+??) but the average F1 team is no where near as professional
    as the mid ranking CART teams. Hence McHonda's domination, sheer
    amateurism on behalf of the rest. 
    
    I really hope that Mike Andretti and Little Al get over to F1 next
    season and then we can make some real comparisons on drivers. The image
    in Europe is that CART is where you go when you are too old for F1 and
    still need the cash!
    
    Re a few back
    
    A couple of minor changes on the pre qual list:
    
    1	McLaren		97 points
    2	Ferrari		66 points	
    3	Benetton	52 points
    4	Williams	36 points
    5=	Tyrrell		 7 points
    5=  Larrousse	 7 points
    7	Lotus		 6 points
    8   BMS_Dallara	 4 points
    9	Minardi		 3 points
    10	Leyton House	 1 point
    ------------------------------
    11	Lambo F1
    12	Ligier
    13  AGS
    ------------------------------
    14 	Brabham
    15	Footwork
    16/17/18 Jordan, Fomet, Coloni
    
    
    Paul	 

    	I'm right with you, George (a few back) ; although Monaco may be a
    different matter, so far this season I have been unable to
    realistically predict the winner from among 6 or 7 drivers all in with
    a shout. Sure, you can always say Senna, Senna, Senna and that's what
    it's been so far but I don't think any race is a "formality" for him
    anymore, as it used to almost be. There's still a long way to go and
    definate chinks in the McLaren armour. If only the others could a)
    maintain the same reliability as the McLarens and b) get their drivers
    to keep the cars on the black stuff...
    
    	Interestingly, I looked up the following figures regarding
    retirements over the last three years when McLaren have won the
    Constructors' Championship, comparing them with Ferrari, Benetton and
    Williams :
    
    			  1990		  1989		  1988
    			RM/RA/RO	RM/RA/RO	RM/RA/RO	
    FERRARI		11/2/0		13/6/2		 8/3/0
    WILLIAMS		 9/2/0		 9/3/0		14/5/1
    MCLAREN		 4/6/0		 4/4/1		 2/2/1
    BENETTON		 5/2/1		 6/3/3		 7/1/1
    
    	RM = retirements due to mechanical problems (incl fuel, tyres, etc)
    	RA = retirements due to accident, driver error, spins
    	RO = disqualifications, driver unable to continue, etc
    
    	This shows that McLaren have only failed to finish 96 starts due to
    mechanical problems 10 times (compared to 32 each for Ferrari and
    Williams and 18 for Benetton!! You can't win the championship unless
    you finish consistently in the points and you can't finish consistently
    in the points unless you finish....
    
    Colin

    Colin,
    
    	I'd like to see your list at the end of this season. What you have
    shown is the reliability of the McLaren - the same car for three
    seasons -  against Williams and Ferrari who changed cars in '89 and
    '90.
    
    	George Frost 

	What I like about the list is how one can so clearly trace 
	Mansells progress in recent years from it.

	-John

    People over here are assuming that Michael Andretti will be racing
    F1 next year.  That may be a little cruel to Gerhard, but anything's
    possible of late.  Actually, though, Al Jr. is probably the class of
    the CART field.  But Mario emigrated from Italy as a small boy and
    as we know raced the F1 circuit.  He seems interested in seeing his
    boy do at least one year in F1.
    
    I'd like to see it cuz, *if* Michael gets a top ride, it'd be a good
    comparison of CART vs. F1 drivers.  It's kinda unfair to CART to point
    out all the drivers who had second rate rides and go over to CART, get
    a top ride, do much better, and then are used as evidence that the
    American competition isn't as tough.  And it may not be.  Certainly
    the CART cars aren't as advanced as F1 machines, but the drivers could
    be as good, maybe.  Although I must admit I've never seen 50 year old
    men racing in F1.  That one's hard to explain away.
    
    Paul, you gotta go to the mother of all races sometime, the Indy 500.
    It's unreal.  Get a seat in the first turn and your view to the north
    is a 200 foot high wall of people a mile long without about a quarter
    million people in view.  The level of excitement is feverish.  It's 
    more of a pilgramage than just another race.
    
    That's why I'd like to go to Monza sometime.  It seems like it might
    be the closest thing to Indy in F1 (although maybe Sao Paolo, those
    Brazilians *do* luv their racing ;^).
    
    MrT 

    The local (French) Channel 5 group have bought into motor sport in a
    big way this season.
    
    All F1 are to be shown live, rallies where practicable get live
    coverage and wonder of wonders - we watched Sports Car live from Monza
    on Sunday.
    Bikes get full coverage.
                          
    Mr. Saxby sir, how come the Jaguar team run an F1 mill?
    
    		George Frost

RE: -.1

Yes, the coverage was very good indeed - wasn't it? Full of drama -
particularly when Dalmas ran over his teamates in the pit lane, the Porsche
crashed upside down - trapping the driver, and when Warwick missed a corner
because of a film of oil on his windscreen which had  been laid down by the
preceding Peugeot.

>>    Mr. Saxby sir, how come the Jaguar team run an F1 mill?
    
New rules this season favour non-turbo engines (I may be a cynic, but I get the
feeling that they were changed to allow Peugeot to 'cut their teeth' in Sports
Cars before spearheading Balestre's holy grail - an all-conquering all-French 
team in Formula 1). Jaguar belong to Ford, so they use F1 block used by
Benetton et al - I'm sure that the costs of developing their own in house would
be steep. Makes sense - though its no longer a Jaguar :-) ....

Pescarolo on "La 5" said that he thought that Jaguar would be the McLaren of
Sports Car Racing this season. Nobody else is in the same class - the new
Mercedes is very disappointing (which is why Schlesser doesn't want to use it).
Pescarolo reckons that there won't be a challenge to Jaguar until mid-season
when Peugeot come out with a heavily modified (new?) car based upon what
they've learnt so far..

Cheers

Steve

    
    Re Mr Frost.
    
    As Mr Simpson says, the new Group C rules say 'use F1 engines', Jaguar
    do!
    
    Mark

    Bad news for cable/satellite viewers -
    
    Eurosport ceased transmitting this weekend after failing to find new
    backers. The EC had decreed that they could no longer be funded by the
    consortium of TV stations that had set them up for some reason.
    
    So, no more Friday/Saturday practice sessions, and back to relying on
    the Beeb for live European race coverage. (Sky show the whole race but
    on tape delay in the evening, and on current evidence, with studio
    based commentators) Still, at least Sky are planning to show the
    non-European races live.
    
    BTW, both Sky & Eurosport are showing an excellent 90 min program
    called Inside Track on the Thursday after races. Loads of interviews
    and special features, just hope it continues after Eurosport's demise.
    
    Paul 

    ... there is always RTL-Plus, just turn the sound down a bit.
    
    S'pose it is back to Murray W**ker then!
    
    mb

    Well, the tickets have arrived and the plane is booked, so can anyone
    advise of where the merchandise stall area is at Monaco? We have seats
    at Le Piscene (backs to the swimming pool looking towards the tunnel)
    and of course have to buy a t-shirt or something!!
    
    It'll be nice to be there when Ayrton wins his 4th on the trot!
    
    Paul

	I have had a premonition to the effect that Berger will
	win in Monaco. No other details available.

	-John

    re .435
                                       ... you can't miss them.
    
    No need to search out the stalls; they'll find you! 
    Actually, there's a row of them on the road down to the area of the
    stands.

    How far of a drive is Maigny Cours from Paris?  And when is Le Mans
    scheduled for this year?
    
    MrT

    Does anybody know how I can get hold of a programme for this week's
    Monaco GP ?
    
    I have money ready !!!
    

    
    Le Mans is 22 -23 June.
    

    What has .440 got to do with this topic or .439?
    
    Confused of Reading

    I believe Magny Cours was somewhere near Clermont Ferond, but I
    couldn't be more acurate than that.
    
    
    Garry

    re .439
    
    Colin,
    
    I'll get you one, you can even pay me on receipt!
    
    I'll drop it in the post on Monday.
    
    regards
    
    Paul

      Would it be possible to get one to me in the sates I'll pay the cost
    to get a Monaco Programme.
    
    Have money ready too!
    
    Mark
    

    Monaco first qualifying session times:
    
    Senna 	1min 20.508s
    Berger      1min 21.222
    Patrese	1min 22.057
    Prost	1min 22.113
    Piquet	1min 22.816
    Alesi	1min 22.966
    Lehto	1min 23.023
    Mansell	1min 23.274
    Pirro	1min 23.311
    Modena	1min 23.442
    
    
    Blundle	1min 25.500    24th on grid
    Bailey			28th not qualified yet
    
    Brundle has been disqualified for failing to stop to have his car
    weighed.
    
    Mansell hit the barriers in both sessions.
    
    Looks like the McClaren is on for victory number 4.
    
    steve

    Re .445
    
    Thats first timed pratice session not qualifying. Pre-qualifying
    comes before qualifying!
    
    Tony.

	Re .446 is a bit wrong methinks.

	Sorry but .445 was qualifying. At Monaco qualifying is Thursday
	and Friday, nothing on Saturday.

	The Dallaras are doing extremely well, and look to be the up
	and coming team of the moment. They have always produced neat
	good handling cars and with the Judd V10 are making progress.

	I'm surprised to see a Benetton near the top, maybe they're getting
	it sorted.

	Spare a thought for Lamborghini, within an inch of scoring points
	last race and now not even making qualifying. With two Dallaras
	and Jordans to beat they're really up against it.

	-John

    	Another scintilating, error-free drive from Senna. You have to hand
    it to him ; he is making Monaco "his" circuit in the same way that the
    late great Graham Hill did in the 60s.
    
    	Modena had a great race, too, until the blowup. Poor Patrese!!!!
    Mansell was greatly fired up in the second half ; typically aggressive
    overtake on Prost, who was also quite forceful in traffic. I'm
    surprised Alesi kept it off the barriers (impressed with that) and even
    more surprised that Pirro did not get the same treatment as Martini ;
    his baulking of Modena was disgraceful and led, ultimately, to poor
    Patrese's downfall as well. 
    
    	Not one of the classics but always an interesting race, Monaco. I
    enjoyed it!! Now can somebody break this incredible run of success in
    Montreal...??
    
    Colin

    First trip to Monaco when the racing has been on, and I reckon Phoenix
    and Jerez have mor F1 atmosphere. Sure, Monaco has the history and the
    numbers of people and the glamour, but the people who go seem (to us)
    to more of the "If its May its Monaco, if its July its Wimbledon"
    brigade rather than F1 fans. We went on a Page & moy day trip, and were
    in the Grandstand as they enter the pool complex, the small one at the
    end of the harbour straight. Superb view from almost the chicane round
    to us, helped by a huge star vision screen right opposite on the hiil
    side, the start just at our backs, the cars a matter of 20m away, and
    that gloriuos noise!
    
    F1 is definately running at a higher pitch this year, the new
    multi-cylinder cars have finally killed off the flat Cosworth bark. The
    Honda V12 sounded glorious going up the hill to Casino, we could hear
    but not see.
    
    Anyway, Flame on, it would have been great but for the drunken
    Englishmen next to us who insisted on pushing past for more beer or the
    loos every 15 minutes, and thought it fun to spray those around them
    with beer, and fall over/tread on the feet of anybody vlose to them. It
    seems they come every year, just to Monaco. Its ironic that we were at
    a football match the day before where the people were much more
    pleasant. Its no wonder we English have a crap reputation abroad.
    
    As for the race - superb drive by Senna, also by Mansell. Lots of
    action down the field, its getting closer, but I still fancy Ayrton to
    walk the title this year.
    
    Oh - James Hunt used our charter to get there and back, and also our
    coach. Good to see the beeb saving our money.
    
    Paul

    Does anyone know what happened to Patresse
    

    
    He span on Modena's oil when Honda pressed the self-destruct putting on 
    the Tyrrell's engine! :^) If you were quick you would have seen the two
    cars enter the tunnel and then a cloud of smoke from Modena's engine,
    the next thing you saw was both cars limping out of the other end of
    the tunnel.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Liked Mansell's outbraking manouevre.
    
    

    Don't often add any comments to the wealth of opinions in here, but....
    
    Liked the race, good to watch, even with Senna away in the distance!
    
    Did anyone else notice Mansell's different cornering lines to the
    majority of the field? It seemed to give him a five metre advantage at
    at least two corners on the circuit, both when behind Patrese and
    Prost.
    
    JK

    
    
    	I think the different lines tacken at the corners in question were
    properbly Nigel trying to get past and outbrake/take the racing line
    before the others and not his interpretaion of a different racing line.
    Did anyone else see the marshell do a suicide attempt in front of
    Senna, I'd be surprised if hes there next year.
    

    re: 432  thank you sir! Proust is out as far as I am concerned....his
    thinking is somewhat cambered.
    
    	George Frost

RE: -.1

Yes, I saw that - absolutely unbelievable - all I could think of was poor Tom
Pryce...

Good to see Senna and Mansell shaking hands yesterday. In fact I could almost
believe that Mansell's there to give Ayrton lessons in how to be more
demonstrable - lifting his arm aloft for him on the rostrum, and then later
doing basketball style handshakes.

I wish Senna well - he's been Mr. Perfect so far. However, I believe that he
has set such high standards for himself - and puts so much pressure on himself 
- that he could crack up. I think that he will further complicate things by
looking for a new team for next season - he needs a challenge, and must be
finding things a bit stale at the moment. He's going to be World Champion again
- the only person capable of beating him is himself - however I don't think
that he will finish the season as convincingly as he has started it.

    re: .452 
    
    Coming in Ste. Devote Mansell seemed to be taking a far wider line. Was
    he avoiding a bump in order to put less stress on the car. The french
    commentators said something about the gearboxes taking a hammering over
    bumps. If so maybe Mansell has learned something from his previous
    three races. He also seemed to be avoiding the dip coming into the
    Mirabeau.
    

    I thought it was an interesting comment by walker/Hunt (can't remember
    which) that Senna has such a psychological advantage over the rest
    of the field that when the drivers see his orange and white car with
    yellow helmet, they pull over to give him room. (Admittedly this is
    when hes lapping, but it must help him tremendously)
    
    - Roy

    Thats because they know he'll stop at nothing to win 8-) Imagine
    what would have happened if Mansell had been overtaking Senna,
    instead of Prost. He would have been straight in the harbour !

    Well, great race all right.
    
    As I was in France then, got a little more inforamtion than we have
    here.
    
    on Prost: lots of complaints from his and Alesi that the car was very
    hard to drive. Had to keep the suspension very taught, actually, you
    could see the car bouncing around. Prost was definitively faster than
    Mansell in the first third of the race, and held up very long.
    Apparently, a fit of bad luck: a "goujon" went loose on a wheel about
    mid-way, forcing him first to slow down (and let Mansell back) and then
    to stop just before the end. With a 20s lead and 5 laps to go, the
    tires couldn't be the prolbme. He decided to stop rather than come out
    of the tunnel on 3 wheels. Methinks if his complaints on the car are
    right, then it was an impressive drive.
    
    Alesi did pretty good - though he didn't seem to share the happiness on
    the podium.
    
    Modena was quite impressive - apparently, Senna aknowledged that he was
    being pushed around. Quite unlucky with Pirro blocking him. Quite
    unlucky with the Honda too - I thought Honda made their motors close to
    unbreakable. And of course, quite a piece of bad luck for Patreses...
    
    Senna: I'm no fan of his, but it does seem his driving is maturing
    lately. Can't really be sure, because pushing Nanninni off the road
    ain't that far back in time, and Senna currently doesn't *need* to push
    people off the road. The problem would be how mature he would remain if
    under pressure. All the same, much more mature driving, a well earned
    victory. Tidbits from "la Cinq": he was apparently unsure about the lap
    count, so he did his slow-down lap at top speed. He then pulled a
    stunt: he came to a complete stop on the circuit, level with his pit,
    and then did a full F1 start, complete with a thick layer of rubber
    left on the road. Probably to prove that he/his car were still fit.
    
    Still, let's hope he gets a little more challenge down the road.
    
    Who said earlier: Senna will be WC, but the end of the season will be
    more difficult for him? That seems like a safe bet. starting with 4
    straight wins, things can hardly get *easier*.
    
    Well, let's hope for more competition latter on...
    
    JP

    Now I'm down from the high of seeing the boys live again a few
    reflections (also after watching the video of the race)
    
    Senna was in a class of his own. The only driver who came close was
    Mansell who was visibly quicker than anybody else in the closing
    stages. However, the way Senna managed to quicken in the last 5 laps
    after having wound down, just to keep a reasonable distance in front of
    Nige was very impressive. We also like his rubber laying at the finish,
    did you notice it was rught in front of the Ferrari pit?
    
    Modena was good, but showed his lack of experience when he got baulked.
    Yes, Pirro and PLM were at fault but Modena didn't make much of an
    effort at first. However, it was shameful that the pair of them saw off
    the challenge of Modena and then caused Patrese to go out too, as if he
    hadn't been so close he may have avoided the oil.
    
    Alesi was very unimpressive, poodling along at the back of the leading
    group, as Murray said, Ferrari must be rueing their investment. Of
    course, Alesi could be driving under strict orders ie
    
    "Get the car to the finish or you don't get paid!"
    
    In the midfield, the Dallara's and the Jordan's looked good but the
    other's were makeweights (it hurts to say that about Leyton House but
    it's true) however, Capelli was in the spare car again and might have
    done better in his own car.
    
    As for the next two "away" races, Canada suits Senna down to the
    ground, especially if its wet, and he was running away in Mexico until
    the puncture, if you add McLaren's organisation on a three week trip as
    opposed to Ferrari's disorganisation, it all adds upto more of the
    same, but with Williams getting closer by the race.
    
    I reckon Mansell will be unbeatable at Silverstone this year, but by
    then it will be too late to catch Ayrton for '91.
    
    Paul

	Were the Berger/Piquet retirements as a result of contact?.
	On the video it was difficult to tell but Berger was certainly
	very close to the rear of the Benetton.

	The Tyrrells speed was mainly achieved through the slow corners.
	Apart from a certain lack of agression when stuck behind Modena/
	Pirro it didn't seem to be able to do anything on the straight.
	I wonder if perhaps one or both of them thought that it was
	Nakajima behind them. Modena generally had been doing a good 
	job of getting out of peoples way, Pirro seemed to me the real
	offender.

	I doubt whether the Benettons are that much better really. The
	'Tyrrell nose' aerodynamics seem to be most effective on tight 
	circuits.

	No Ferarris in the top six on the grid, when did that last 
	happen?.

	-John

    The Beeb mentioned that Mansell had problems in the first third of the
    race with his engine cutting out.  Anyone heard any more on this?

    Re Berger & Patrese
    
    Berger didn't seem to be involved with Piquet who pulled off just
    before the hairpin with no drive. On the video Berger was missing when
    they cane up the hill. He appeared past us at the Pool about two thirds
    of a lap down and with no nose. It looked from the video that he got
    barged at la Source. Didn't see what buried him in the barrier later
    but he was going like a bat out of hell to catch up with his new nose
    so I guess he just over-cooked it.
    
    Patrese went into the barrier coming out of the tunnel on Modena's oil,
    wiping off most of the front end. Blundell also went off at the same
    place.
    
    Paul

With the Ferraris doing so badly, it seems a bit surprising that Prost
managed the fastest lap really.

    
    Re .464
    
    Not really. Fresh tyres only 3 laps from the end would seem the perfect 
    way to get fastest lap of a race.
    
    Mark

>With the Ferraris doing so badly, it seems a bit surprising that Prost
>managed the fastest lap really.
    
    Not really, using new tyres when the rest of the field hadn't changed
    enabled this.

    Its called new tyres on a car with no fuel and a track with only 10 or
    so cars running.
    
    

    Triple Overlap!!!!
    
    Just like timing formula ford!!!
    
    Paul

    re .463
    
    on the in car camera replay from Piquet's car you could see the front
    right tire was not turning as he came down the hill before he pulled
    off - did he get hit from behind and get a left rear puncture?
    
    CR

    
    I'd assumed Berger took Piquet out, hitting him from behind.
    
    William.

    Funny thing about Senna's alleged "newfound maturity" is that he 
    found it about the time Prost left McHonda... My prediction of 13
    wins for Senna this year looks like a lead pipe cinch now, especially
    with the way Berger's performing... The Williams weren't impressive,
    Prost passed Mansell before his tire problem, and the V-10 TyrHonda
    was giving Patrese all he could handle... The TyrHonda's breakdown
    is the first engine failure (excepting electronics) I remember with
    a Honda mill in years... Remember the Cup they used to give to the
    best naturally aspirated car years ago?  Maybe it's time to institute
    a NonMcHonda Class Cup to the winner, who'll probably be either Patrese
    or Prost the way it looks now... Senna coulda lapped the field had he
    wanted to, but he laid into a groove at about 40 seconds out until
    starting his now traditional late-race slowdown... On American TV
    coverage it was said that it takes $50 million to field a backmarker,
    $100 million a contender, and that McHonda's estimated annual outlay
    is probably in the $150 million range... Paterse is snakebit with bad
    luck, but he went from being a journeyman three years ago to one thought
    of as perhaps a top 3 driver (behind Senna and Prost), a contention 
    underscored by his performance in comparison to Mansell this year...
    
    MrT
    

    Re: .461 and .470
    
    Berger went into the back of Piquet which was a shame.  I thought
    Piquet would give Senna a run for his money.
    

    	Righton, last noter. PIquet and Berger had a coming together which
    resulted in a collapsed rear suspension for the Benetton and a damaged
    nose for the McLaren. He reported that, when flying after the stop, he
    got oil on his visor from one of the Minardis and was trying to wipe it
    off as he came into the pool complex!! He lost concentration and his 
    foot slipped off the brake!
    
    	Mansell's early problem was a rotational sensor in the throttle
    mechanism malfunctioning and causing occasional loss of power. This
    seemed to clear itself as the fuel load lightened. I would hardly call
    the move he pulled on Prost as being let through, though!!! That was
    surely one of the best (THE best) overtake of the race...
    
    Colin

    
    RE a few back...
    
    MrT I think Magny Cours is approx 130 miles from Paris, its actualy 
    situated at Nevers(south of Paris, west of Dijon).Its Motorway to
    Dordive then good main road to Nevers. 
    
    My seats are booked....won't be the same as Ricard though. I have the 
    prices and a map of the circuit if anyone wants a copy,or I can
    scan it in and send it postscript.
    
    Seems the drivers are not too happy with Magny cours, too narrow.
    Mansell set fastest time in testing.
    
    Kev..

    Is it too early to take bets on Berger moving on and his seat going to
    Michael Andretti?  If I were Michael would I be comfortable in the #2
    car behind Senna? 
    
    Paul
    

Time to put the cat in with the pigeons.

IMHO Berger is over-rated. He's quick, he's had problems, yes. But he lacks that
"certain something"; the determination and aggression that sets guys like Senna
and Mansell apart. He's always good on a clear track but Gerhard belongs more in
the Boutsen school of driving.

I hope Andretti gets a look in next season, but Paul is right. I can't see him
settling for second best. Mario wouldn't allow it 8-)

    Hot news on the radio: Ferrari have said thank you to Cesare Fiorio.
    The new management team is made of 3 people. Actual leader of the
    management is announced to be Piero Lardi.
    
    The announcement was made by FIAT. This tends to confirm that Prost
    is still powerful (he had violently and openly criticized Fiorio's team
    management ability since last Estoril)

Yes, obviously time for a change. Don't know anything about Piero Lardi, but 
Fiorio was very good at giving the impression of disorganisation.

Maybe the new guy can unite FIATs resources into making Ferrari successful
again.

Prost would be happy.

    >But he lacks that "certain something"; the determination and agression 
    >that sets guys like Senna and Mansell apart.
    
    Or Le Professeur, who, all things being equal, is the best there is
    right now.
    
    MrT

    At Monaco it looked like Le Poodle was doing it again: cruising around
    at a fair but safe speed and waiting for the faster cars to drop out,
    then do a few quick laps to look good and have another brilliant,
    come-from-the-back finish in second place.
    
    
    Ho hum.
    russ
    
    
    
    ;-) 

    
    Re. Prost.
    
    If he ever was the best, he's shown no evidence of it so far this
    season. On recent evidence, he's more interested in whining than
    winning.
    
    Re. Fiorio.
    
    Does anyone know what's happened to him? Has he taking up another job
    within the FIAT group? To accuse Fiorio of Ferrari's woes sounds like
    making a scapegoat of him to me. After all, he had no problem running
    Lancia's rally team like a steamroller. Ferrari have always been beset
    by political infighting, so their problems and lack of results don't
    strike me as anything new. If Prost reckons he can run the F1 team 
    any better why doesn't he hang up his helmet and do the job? I suspect
    he'd soon find things aren't as easy as they seem...
    
    Mark

    On Prost. I might just concede Senna winning the championship this year
    in the McLaren but Prost will be there pushing him right to the end.
    
    It is very easily forgotten that Prost was the driver with the best
    performances and record when he drove for the best car. 
    He is now fighting the car and is still second in the points tables.
    All this talk of Mansell, Patrese, Benneton, Williams, Tyrrel......come
    on folks, not a lot has changed out there except that McLaren have got
    better and Ferrari have not.
    
    Prost is actively developing the new car and engine....his first for
    Ferrari (he inherited previously)....how about we leave judgement of
    the F1 driver and competitor until the end of this season. As in fact
    we did when he went to Renault and then McLaren. 
    His competition in those days was the likes of Lauda, so don't mark him
    down.
    
    His whining? Do me a favour, he has every right to complain
    at the state of the car and team. We outsiders are railing why not him?
    In the same vein, Senna has had a lot to say this season, quite
    publicly and he has it damned good.
    
    On his performance this season, excellent given his incredible bad luck
    and as said above, the state of the car and team. I know this is only
    supposition but had Prost been driving the Tyrrell in Monaco, different
    story; the Williams in Brasil, different story. Unfortunately he was in
    the Ferrari but he (not Alesi) has brought it to second place in the
    manufacturers and drivers points table.
    There is no magic about Senna, he is driving a far superior car...it
    is very easy to loose sight of the precise, simplistic and smooth
    driving style Prost uses when one sees him fighting a bobbling,
    logitudinally and laterally unstable car. 
    
    Give him back his tools and we will still see an end of season worthy
    of the name. Unless of course somebody cracks again and cheats by pushing 
    him off the track.
    
           regards  George Frost
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Shaun,
    
    	my "not much has changed" comment was written to imply a dramatic
    change. Sure all cars have improved particularly Williams, Tyrrel
    Benneton et al, and they are now competitive with the Ferrari but still
    not with the McLaren. My point was made in response to a comment from
    Mark that Prost has not shown much form this season.
    Prost for me has shown form but the car has let him down.
    
    Now everyone? out there knows my views about the driver being more
    important than the car and this is a case in point. I contend that
    no one car drive the Ferrari well as it is but Prost with his skills
    is making it competitive.
    
    My point about "whining" was again in response to a comment from Mark.
    Actually I have never complained about Mansell whining ability, only
    his car breaking antics.
    
    

    Patrick,
    
    	do you think Senna will be prepared to work for Prost?
    
    		George Frost

    
    Does anyone really believe that Prost will take over the management
    of the Ferrari team? He might believe he can turn the team into
    winners, but I bet he'd soon be complaining about FIAT interference
    and Ferrari management incompetence if he was stuck with the blame for
    all the mistakes the organisation makes.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Prost is God, Senna is the antichrist. What's there to debate? :^)

    where's the Madonna in all this?
    
    		George F

    
    Oh no? What about Jean-(Virgin)Marie Balestre?
    
    Mark :^)
    

    But he's just Virgin on the ridiculous Sax 8-)

    I cannot believe that Prost would be successful as the Ferrari F1 boss. 
    I'm not sure who could.  As good as Senna is (and he IS), McLaren has
    been successful - VERY successful since 1984.  Look at the results for
    World Champion - Lauda, Prost, Prost, -, Senna, Prost, Senna. Six out
    of seven.  With different drivers.  Different designers.  Different
    engines.  The key?  You'll hate to hear it but I think it's Ron Dennis. 
    He may be a flamming AH, but he's the best F1 manager ever.  Results
    speak it all, IMHO.  I don't think that domination is good for the
    sport, but get real.  There is nothing stopping any other team from
    duplicating the effort.  This year a number of teams have improved:
    Williams, Tyrrell, Benetton.  Ferrari hasn't.  McLaren has.  But I
    think Senna makes the McLaren better than it is.  All great drivers do
    that.  Berger does not seem to be able to match Senna.  But then only
    Prost could come close.  (I am a Prost fan.)  If Senna were to retire
    I'd still bet on McLaren fore the WC, but it would be close.
    
    So what's the point of all this?  Ferrari needs a manger.  I thought
    they had a real chance a few years ago when they hired John Barnard,
    but even he fell vistim to the Ferrari politics.  Fiorio was no Ron
    Dennis.  I hate to say it but I think Ferrari will continue to wallow. 
    Not even Prost - as driver or manager - can rescue it.  If I were
    Prost, I might be tempted to start my own team.
    
    Paul
     

[] MOTOR SPORT
   Cesare Fiorio has been replaced as director of the Ferrari F1 team. Owning
   group FIAT have appointed a team of three - Piero Lardi Ferrari, as director
   general, Claudio Lombardi, as technical director, and Marco Piccinnini who
   will deal with the drivers.

    Re Prost/Ferrari
    
    Prost is definately trying to run the team from within, and as such
    wanted Fiorio out. This was confirmed after Brazil, where Prost found
    that the cars had been modified without his knowledge.
    
    As for his performances this year, sorry George but its been a joke.
    Yes the opposition has come on, but he is basically driving a well
    sorted car, in the mid third of its development cycle. Mansell and
    Berger went through the pain of sorting the thing in 1989. This car was
    winning races at the tail end of last season 
    
    Portugal	1st
    Spain	1st & 2nd
    Japan	mansell strolling it until it broke
    Australia	Mansell giving Piquet a good run for his money 
    
    In comparison, Williams and Benetton have new out of the box cars,
    McHonda have a new engine, and a new chassis, and Tyrrell are trying to
    manage quite a few more horses than before.
    
    Prost has lost interest, or so it seems to me, I'm surprised he's
    already committed to '92 unless he's done a deal on management
    authority.
    
    Re Senna/Ferrari
    
    Senna makes no secret of wanting to drive for Ferrari, but he would not
    go to a team that couldn't give him the championship. Also, there is no
    way I would see him and Prost working together. They have too much
    history. Senna's challenge for next year may well be developing
    McLaren's autobox, and maybe even a new engine from Mercedes or
    something.
    
    Re Drivers general
    
    McLaren are in a bit of a spot, they have 4 drivers lined up for next
    year, and two slots. Berger may well be off, but how do you get McNish
    (if he does well in F3000) and Andretti in the same car? I know McNish
    is small but......
    
    I can't see much other change at the very top next year. Williams will
    probably keep Nige and Patrese, Ferrari have supposedly already signed
    Prost & Alesi, and Senna will be in a McLaren.
    
    One last snippet
    
    Tom Walkinshaw was quoted as saying at Silverstone that it was
    "inevitable" that he would be in F1 soon. A Jag in F1? A quality seat
    at last for Del Boy? The day seems better already.
    
    Paul 

    Oh dear Mark, I'll not be drawn into another McNish debate!
    
    Seriously, I don't see him drifting off to Japanese 3000 with his
    Marlboro connections. Equally, I'd be surprised to see him at McHonda.
    My money is on Andretti, who I think would be willing to take the
    slightly back seat to Senna. After all, like most Americans, he will be
    so confident that he is the tops, he'll blow Senna away :-) (On two
    counts so as not to upset my colonial cousins)
    
    The ones in Japanese F3000 this year are the drivers without Marlboro
    backing, Salo, Irvine, Herbert etc. There is some good talent being
    wasted down there that could easily replace the likes of Grouillard,
    Alboreto, Nakajima, Chaves, Pirro, Bailey, Barbazza etc. Humph!
    
    Re Jag
    
    Yeah, I agree that a TWR-Ford is most likely, but you never know. if
    Mercedes come back........
    
    Paul

    
    Sorry Paul, couldn't resist a dig at 'the man with the cold'. :^)
    
    You might be right. Marlboro money does seem to buy a lot of average
    drivers good(ish) drives, but I suspect the drivers in Japan are those
    (on the whole) who've had their chance and blown it in the same way
    many of those you mention are doing it. They get to drive for rubbish
    teams!
    
    I suspect a lot of very good drivers are knocking around in crummy cars
    at the moment and a large number of those will never stick around long
    enough to make it into a decent car. 
    
    Mark
    
    PS What good will Marlboro backing be if the EEC bans all cigarette
    sponsorship? :^)

    Come on, you guys!  You must think that just because Andretti is
    American that we Yankee noters think he's invincible.  Nay, nay.
    
    I'd like to see him in F1.  I'd like to see him do well.  But I have no
    misconceptions of him and Senna.  I think Michael will get the McLaren
    seat not because he's the best driver or because he's the most
    deserving.  His Dad is very well connected in racing and is a very good
    politician.  Michael will get the seat - if he wants it.  I have no
    illusions of him dong Senna in.  But he could do well enough that when
    Senna retires he'd be in a good position.
    
    BTW, Senna will retire at the end of the 1993 season.  He'll have his
    5th World Championship, 49 wins, and 65% pole positions.  No one will
    come close for a very long time.  Michael will take the #1 seat at
    McLaren.  Ron Dennis will move on to greener pastures.  McLaren will
    have a Mercedes engine.
    
    Actually, most Yanks think Unser jr is the better (best) driver in Indy
    cars today.  Has more smarts and drives less like a bull.  Could he
    unseat Senna?  Nah.  But I think he stands a good chance in F1 should
    he get the chance to go.
    
    Regards,
    
    Paul
    

    RE: 496
    
    Paul you said Mansell will probably stay with Williams, I read that
    he has put his Manx Palace up for sale, and is looking to move to the
    states. Maybe he has cart in mind?? or do they have better golf courses
    over their..

    Mansell is repoted to be in discussions with Frank W about next year's
    fee. The Florida thing is about living next to Greg Norman, and paying
    less tax on his $12m pa.
    
    Paul 

the merc engine hasn't been too well in wspc has it ?

	So Prost is a washed up has-been who isn't trying?

	How is it then that the he has consistently outperformed the
	young, brash, pushy, quick, aggressive, and very expensive Alesi?

	This year the Ferrari just hasn't been fast enough.

	-John

    Re Alesi
    
    He's been a major disappointment. He is clearly being overawed by Prost
    and the Ferrari machine, which has killed the spirit we saw last year
    in the Tyrrell. 
    
    Major career blunder No1 - sign for Ferrari
    
    Paul

    Re -2 on Alesi
    
>>  Major career blunder No1 - sign for Ferrari
    
	It didn't seem to do Niki Lauda and Jody Scheckter (to name but
    three) any harm in their careers but I take your point that Ferrari do
    seem to be their own worst enemy.
    
    	Incidently, although I do not know how many times they have taken
    the constructors' championship (my mass of info is not that well sorted
    yet), Ferrari drivers won the Driver's World Championship 4 times in
    the 50s, twice in the 60s, 3 times in the 70s and not at all in the
    80s. Interesting thought! For the record, in the 80s, Williams drivers
    (Jones, Rosberg and Piquet) won 3 times, Brabham drivers (Piquet) twice
    and McLaren drivers (Lauda, Prost and Senna) 5 times.
    
    Cheers,
    	Colin

    I would be interested in an objective (where possible) opinion from you
    noters, on your classification of todays crop of drivers.
    
    Not who is the best or second best.....all rounder, but who is the best
    driver period.
    Next who is the best manager of his machine (a la Shelby in the 60's).
    Next who is the best tactician, mechanic and any other 'best' that you
    care to add.
    
    Some of these answers will put our relative comments and opinions in
    order. It will also make for some very interesting reading.
    
    		George Frost  

    
    I don't really like to say it, but Ayrton Senna has, to my eyes, proved
    himself the best driver FULL STOP.
    
    He seems to have lost his impetuous streak and (assuming we can believe
    the McLaren failing gearbox story) can nurse home ailing equipment.
    
    He always was the fastest and most aggresive driver around (perhaps in
    these areas only equal to Mansell).
    
    Prost seems to have acquired Senna's failings as the Brazillian has
    shed them.
    
    Mark

    I'll put my head in the noose George....
    
    Best Overall	Ayrton Senna
    Best Tactician	Alain Prost (but the crown is slipping)
    Best "Nurser"	Ayrton Senna
    Bravest		Nigel Mansell
    Best in Traffic	Ayrton Senna
    Most Promising	Mika Hakkinen
    Most Under-rated	Derek Warwick/Eric Bernard
    Best Italian Accent	Riccardo Patrese (sorry - a bit xenophobic!)
    Most Fashionable	Christian Fittipaldi (or soon will be)
    
    Over to you folks.
    
    Paul 

    Almost forgot.....
    
    Eurosport is back on the air tonight with backing from TF1. Interesting
    comment on satellite tv was by one of their potential new backers -
    
    "Eurosport had it all right, the marketing and the formula, but still
    ran up debts of $50m"
    
    Paul

    
    
    Best team boss (most astute) : Ron Dennis
    Best designer                : John Barnard
    Best engine                  : Honda V12
    

	Best Driver	:	Ayrton Senna (boy that stuck in the throat !)
	Best Tactician	:	Ayrton Senna (Somebody who does this well must
					      be doing something right)
	Most Potential	:	Nigel Mansell (He WILL become world champion
					       1 day)
	Most overated	:	Jean Alesi
	Best 'Nurser'	:	Ayrton Senna
	Most Competetive:	Nigel Mansell


	Shaun ( Who now wants to wash his mouth out with soap )


    

    Not that I pay too much attention to most of the drivers, but :-
    
    
	BEST Driver	  :	Ayrton Senna (can there be any question here ?
    					      even though I don't 'like' his
    					      attitude - what we see of it)
    
	Best Tactician	  :	Senna ? (not Prost, since he seems to have
    					 changed from 'using tactics' to
    					 'hoping he's there at the end')
    
	Hardest 'Charger' :	Nigel Mansell (tries the hardest)
    
	Worst 'Nurser'	  :	Mansell (but doesn't know it's 'too much')
    
    	Best Manager	  :	Ron Dennis (look at the results)
    
    	Best Designer	  :	John Barnard (look which teams improve most
    					      - when he joins the fold)
    
    J.R.

    I'd agree with most of the nominations thus far, except Best Tactician. 
    I believe that Prost earned that title and still holds it.  His current
    lack of success is more likely due to Ferrari's lack of organization
    and leadership than Prost slipping.
    
    Paul
    

    
    Re .517
    
    What did he hope to gain by spinning off on the warm-up lap then?
    
    Sympathy points? :^)
    
    Mark

    Don't go aways guys, 18 months ago Prost was the worlds best and he
    proved it when he beat Senna in the "same" car.
    
    Prost is suffering the "lack of holiday syndrome that we all know in
    DEC 8-), but don't write him off...he has a lot to teach Senna and
    Alesi and their successors.
    
    		George Frost

    Best driver:    Prost
    Best qualifier: Senna
    Best cheat:     Senna
    Best designer:  Barnard
    Best nurser:    Prost
    Best tactician: Prost
    Best prospect:  Alesi
    
    Remember, some of you guys pretend that Honda's $700,000,000. has had
    no effect.  They've got the most horses, the best tractability, and,
    by a wide margin, the best reliability.  This has hurt the level of 
    competition but has made Dennis and Senna look better than they actually
    are.
    
    Also remember, Senna's alleged newfound maturity suddenly appeared when
    he finally got rid of his only real competition, his "teammate" Alain
    Prost, le Professeur.
    
    MrT
    

    Do I detect a thick fog of rose coloured Prostitis between Europe and
    the States?
    
    Paul

    Another minor point on equal machinery etc -
    
    remember Senna trouncing Prost in Monaco in the Toleman? Only Jacky
    Ickx waving the chequered flag saved Prost's blushes, ana that was
    before he started giving up (sorry going out with handling problems) in
    wet races.
    
    Yours cynically
    
    Paul

re 2 back:
        
>    Nobody has suggested the the money from Honda is'nt a major factor in
>    the results gained by Senna and Co., but when Senna and Prost were
>    racing in equal terms, Senna showed the greater driving ability ( and
>    some of his immaturity, which is why he lost the championship ). And
>    when you consider Prost is generaly regarded as one of the best at
>    setting up his car, I fail to see how anyone can question Sennas
>    brilliance (even though I dislike the guy).
    
    
	I think you have it just right (for me, anyway!) Shaun. Wouldn't it 
    be fun to be able to stick Senna in a Jordan or a Dallara (or an AGS!) 
    and someone like van der Poele in the McLaren and THEN see who came out
    on top?? Something like a virtual reality F1 race!!! Hey, maybe this is
    the way forward that Bernie and JMB are planning...
    
    	I had previously thought that, while Senna was clearly the fastest 
    man on four wheels (when he had four wheels, that is), Prost was the
    better tactician and Mansell the best charger (from behind). However, I
    agree with Shaun that Senna really has noone to hold a candle to him
    these days, Prost has lost a lot of (my) street cred and Patrese
    appears to be a much better charger than Mansell these days!
    
    	I still think (and hope) that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW is going
    to give Senna a thrashing this year (at least a couple of times) in a
    straight fight ; not sure who that could be though....
    
    Colin

>>    	I still think (and hope) that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW is going
>>    to give Senna a thrashing this year (at least a couple of times) in a
>>    straight fight ; not sure who that could be though....
    
    
    My money is on Mansell. ( Well we live in hope :^)
    
    
    Shaun.

I thought that part of the arguement between Senna and Prost was that
when in the same team, they never were on equal terms. The money was with
Senna, so he got the best equipment etc etc.

    .522	Paul, I don't think that Mr. T has changed his opinion
    		certainly since I have been in this conference. Nor have I.
    
    		No collusion, for me it is staring reality in the
    		face...how come you don't see it?  ;-)
    
    .525	The boy to do it is Prost, either in Montreal or UK.
    
    .527	And still Prost won!
    
    		George Frost

    The New York Times reported earlier this week that this is Honda's last
    year in F1. Apparently intend to redirect resources to environmental
    concerns.  I hope someone else has details.
    
    Perhaps related (?) Nissan is said to be looking for an F1 team to run
    their 3.5 V12.
    
    Fastest Driver:  Senna
    Best Driver:     Prost
    Most overrated:  Mansell (and I do love the way he drives -- but would
                     you bet a 9-figure budget on him winning the title?)
    
    Don 
    
    

    Don,
    		tks for the snippet. I said it would be last year (Honda's
    retirement from F1) precisely for financial reasons but it adds credence 
    to the way Senna is beginning to skitter around for a team - or perhaps 
    the same wages next year.
    
    
    		George Frost

    
    
    Since Mclaren have gone for BMW power in their sports car, perhaps
    they're expecting to link up with BMW next year?
    
    

    George,
    
    I wasn't suggesting that MrT had changed his opion, merely that living
    in the colonies was clouding his judgement somewhat.
    
    As for Honda's reported pull out, this first surfaced about 6 months
    ago and was related to the new stricter emission requirements in the US
    and the investment needed to develop engines to meet them. Putting 1
    and 1 together and making 1000, maybe Mr Goto's arrival at McLaren has
    something to do with them moving their engines in house? A development
    program based on the V12 would be logical for them.
    
    Patrick....
    
    Autosport has a report that Larousse and Ligier were having
    reconciliation talks with a view to a merger (they came from Auto Hebo
    I think) Have you got any more info?
    
    Paul 

    Prost and Senna were on equal (i.e., McHonda class) terms for two
    years - excepting that Senna got more teams support from that sneak
    Ron Dennis.  They went 1-for-1.  I'd hardly call that dominating on
    Senna's part.  F1 is about winning races, not poles.
    
    We needn't recount all the stupid mistakes and cheating by I-Hear-A-
    Taunt.  He's "mature" only when unchallenged... some sportsman and
    champion, eh?  
    
    It's been said before, he gets through traffic because he's taught
    everybody that he'd rather crash from behind than be slowed down.  If
    that's great driving, perhaps it's time to review what the sport's all
    about. 
    
    I-Hear-A-Taunt's happy now, cuz he's with Gehard.  Oh, I forgot:
    
    Best Blocking Back: Gerhard Berger
    
    As for "Our Nige," let's keep in mind that he's been shown up badly
    by Ricardo this year.  To his credit, though, he *did* manage to finish
    a race finally.  At this rate he'll finish 4 races this year!
    
    MrT

    My last reply to .533 included counter bad things about Le Poodle, but
    it got trashed by Network Partner Exited. Fate I suppose, so shut up.
    
    Anyway, what I really wanted to say was:
    
    Ferrari - 8: 61, 64, 75, 76, 77, 79, 82, 83
    Lotus --- 7: 63, 65, 68, 70, 72, 73, 78
    McLaren - 6: 74, 84, 85, 88, 89, 90
    
    russ

    I don't know Russ, telling fate to take off is pretty damn'd
    daring...even for this notes 
    
    		George Frost

Hmmmm... all this talk about who is *best* makes it seem so absolute somehow.
We're comparing someone at the end of his career who has performed well for a 
lot of years with someone who is in the zenith of his career. 

I spend some time around tri-atheletes and cyclists, and I am continually 
reminded that the winners are the ones who are the best mentally prepared,
the toughest and who have made the best preparation. The most important
aspect is the mental one. Top atheletes all do the same training...

And this is Senna's uniqueness - his "mission from God" which sets him apart.
Will it continue to do so for the next 3-5 years ? Who knows ? Prosts problem
is not technique, or skill (I hate these snivelling references to him as "le
snail" - so petty), but simply motivation - the mental preparation. He *has*
proved to be Senna's equal, but is clearly losing out to Senna's comitment
and mental preparation.

Btw one of the best helps for mental preparation is a top team. Ask any cyclist
or athelete.

    I just asked Bernard Hinault and Steve Ovett... They both disagreed.

Hinault without a team ? You're joking of course...

Actually, I don't call Ovett an exceptional athelete, a gifted one, but not
exceptional. He was not at the top long enough, and was mentally defeated in
the end... The likes of Moses I consider exceptional

    Get a life Mister !!

    
    Moses was indeed exceptional.
    
    But then look at the size of his backup team! :^)
    
    Mark

    That wasn't his backup team,
    
    They were his Ferrari management support.
    
    	George Frost

    Hey, I like ratholes, but what in the **** are y'all talking about?

    It is time again for the realists and informed for put their collective
    necks on the block.
    
    Currently it has been oh so easy for the Senna/McLaren clique to stab
    at 'who wins etc'.
    I think times are better for the main opposition - re Ferrari management
    changes. Bad as it sounds, a third by a mere stripling in F1 terms, and
    a fourth in the last race at Monaco is not a bad performance under any
    circumstances.
    
    Ferrari have had it baaaaad for the end of last season and the start of
    this. The reality is that it is a fundamentally sound car and it will
    come good....in Canada, where we will see much improvement.
    
    Ok folks,  who wins this one - with the bumpy lumpy track and lots of
    driver distractions? Guesses before Friday please!
    
    		George Frost
    
    

    Senna again... But failing that Mansell or Patresse. Forget Berger,
    he's useless.

    Ok, I've never done this before:
    
      1. Patrese
      2. Senna
      3. Modena
      4. Prost: well back
      *  Berger: further back
    -----
      *  Mansell: broken car in last 20 laps
    
     russ

    If it rains, Senna - no contest.
    
    If its dry, Senna, but with Mansell & Patrese up his exhaust and
    possibly nicking it.
    
    BTW - George, how can you say Ferrari had a bad end to last season?
    They won in Portugal & Spain, got second in Spain & Oz and were
    waltzing away in Japan 'til Mansell spun the wheels to hard.
    
    That sounds a pretty good 4 races to me.
    
    Paul

    
    ooh, ooh... hit him were it hurts! :^)
    
    
    
    Anyway Dave CAN drive!
    
    
    
    Trouble is...
    
    Only from the back seat! :^)
    
    Mark

    Paul,
    
    	the bad I refer to is not the state of the car, it is the bad luck
    that dogged them.
    
    Consider: Mansell took Prost out at the start of Portugal (or was it
    	      Spain). I'm not getting into the reasons here just the facts.
    
    	      Mansell crapped out while waaaay ahead and spewed his gearbox
    	      all over the pits.
    
    	      Senna took Prost out in Japan.
    
    The first hurt Prost's chances.
    
    The second took Ferrari out of the manufacturers championship and hurt
    Prost's chances very badly.
    
    Don't forget here that Prost was the only one in there with a winning 
    chance and Mansell said before Spain "I'm going to do all possible to 
    make Ferrari win". Now it did not happen and lets be objective if we can 
    and give Mansell credit if we can......that was bad luck.
    
    Same for the third. Being objective here.....that was bad luck.
    
    Hence my opinion that Ferrari have had a very bad run starting at the
    end of last season and continuing to date.
    
    		George Frost
    

    
    A very selective view of the facts, George.
    
    Mark

    Gary and Mark... May I cordially invite both of you to drop dead 8-)
    
    As for Berger... I have said in here before that he is over-rated
    and I'll stick by that.

    
    	Dave,
    
    
    	Being serious for a few nanoseconds, anyone, and I mean anyone who
    	is driving in F1 is talented, maybe not as talented as Senna or
    	Prost or Mansell but they are all very good drivers.
    
    	Best moment of this years season so far was watching De Crasheris,
    	as his distractors have been calling him in the past, and who has been
    	accused of only getting rides because of Daddies money doing well
    	in the 7UP Jordon.
    
    

    But Mark,
    
    	 I do have a penchant for Prost and the car he is driving and in my
    opinion the incidents cited were the critical ones which effectively
    deadened both of their chances.
    
    It is bad luck (no matter which way you turn or select it) when your
    team mate (unintentionally or otherwise) twice zaps you in almost as
    many chances.
    
    		George Frost
    
    
     

    
    De Crasheris might be a fairly quick driver, but he has a very
    strange idea of what makes him a successful driver. 
    
    For instance, I expect Dave can remember him trying to punt Patrese
    off the road at Graham Hill Bend at Brands a few years ago.
    
    
    
    And they were both driving Lancias at the time!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Mark

    George,
    
    There's no point raking over the incidents you mention again. If anyone
    doesn't recall them and is interested they'll no doubt flick back
    through this note to discover a slightly less Anti-Mansell slant on 
    the incidents, IMHO.
    
    Mark 

    I remember that Sax... What a move 8-)
    
    As for your assumption that all in F1 are talented Gaz I'd say that,
    on the whole, thats correct. But there are those who are involved
    through sponsorship deals alone. Such is highlighted by the fact
    that Nakajap has a seat at the expense of Warwick, for example.

    
    Re .557
    
    I'd agree that, while the F1 drivers are all good drivers, it would
    be a brave person who claimed that the best drivers were those 25 or 
    so in F1.
    
    Mark
    

    Mark,
    
    	Paul asked me a question - I responded with my reasons. Thats not
    raking thats remembering.
    
    However to the point. Apart from Brasil it was about this time last
    season that the scuderia started to come good. The signs for me point
    the same way. Ferrari must be considered a very hot prospect for 1991
    in line with Williams (Patrese) and Tyrrel (Modena).
    
    So here we go:
    
    		A Ferrari win by Prost (rain or no everyone forgotten how
    					good he is in the rain, slightly
    					more skilled than Thierry Boutsen)
    
    		Senna			(this to be a head to head)
    
    		Mansell			(fights like hell with Patrese and 
    					 probably knocks him out -
    					 racewise of course)
    
    		Alesi			(has a good chance to zap Mansell
    					 and Senna)
    
    		Modena			(the Tyrell must be best roadwise
    					 on this circuit)
    
    
    			George Frost
     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    George,
    
    I wasn't saying you were raking, I was saying it wasn't worth raking
    (meaning, in this case, covering ground already covered) over the
    incidents again, as they were both discussed in great detail at the
    time.
    
    Hope this clears the confusion.
    
    BTW, what examples do you have of Prost's skill in the rain? I honestly
    tried hard, but can think of no example where he has been the
    outstanding driver.
    
    Mark

Have the circuit organisers welded that man-hole cover down yet - don't want a
repeat of that terrible Group C accident....

RE: -.2

San Marino GP 1991

    let's also hope that the Marshall organisation is up to scratch!
    
    	George Frost

    Also little remembered is the fact that the now-fired Fiorio didn't
    let Prost bring along his race engineer Steve Nichols for two of the
    final races despite being in the hunt for the Driver's.
    
    What Mansell did that day was inexcusable, even despite all the 
    excuses.  Our Nige was upset about being so badly shown up by Alain
    and flat ran him off the road... thereby allowing the McHonda team
    through.  Also memorable was the yeoman work put in by that yeoman
    Berger as blocking back for the Ferraris as they desperately tried
    to get back through to catch I-Hear-A-Taunt up.
    
    Disagree on the red cars, though.  They just don't look very good 
    so far this year, bad luck or no.  One wonders if they're behind the
    development curve now.
    
    re: CART Indy Cars
    
    The Indy Car organization CART is expected to announce within a few
    days their intention of dropping turbocharged engines and adopting an
    engine formula more or less identical to F1's, with 3.5 normally
    aspirated engines.  The rumor is that they'll do this to stop the 
    series' domination by the Ilmor engine, figuring that Honda, Ferrari,
    Lambo, and any number of other engines would be attracted to the CART
    series.
    
    MrT

    There has been a slight change to the Montreal course this year.  The
    straight coming into the pit entrance has been shortened.  The corner
    has been moved to better separate those entering the pit from those
    continuing.  This was an extremely fast right-left that only required a
    momentary lift-off for the braver drivers.  It will now be a braking
    corner.  This should set up more passing opportunities.  In the old
    turbo days, Piquet had been clocked at 190 mph there in his
    Brabham-BMW.  There haven't been radar traps there lately.
    
    Montreal is a difficult course to pass.  Patrese has driven well there. 
    I see a battle between Senna and Patrese, followed by Mansell, Piquet,
    Prost, Moreno, and Modena.  
    
    Jeff

    re. 561. What terrible Group C accident.
    
    Ta.
    
    Barry
    

    Driver changes for Montreal:
    
    Johansson stands in for the injured Caffi at Footwork
    
    Herbert replaces Bailey at Lotus for the rest of the season, bringing
    with him lotsa yen. I see this as insurance for next season too, when
    Mika H is likely to be snapped up by one of the big boys.
    
    Also, according to this morning's paper the race may be in doubt 'cos
    Walter Brun's lawsuit over last year's WPSC accident is still
    unresolved. Sounds a long shot tho'. JMB would probably wave his shades
    at Walter if it got too risky!
    
    Re MrT
    
    At the risk of ging back to F1 1990 forever, Senna won, Prost was
    second, and Ferrari lost the Constructors Cup 'cos they couldn't
    prepare two cars to the required standard. The results are in the book,
    end of story. This year, they are getting better reliablity, but at the
    cost of speed. When they get both, they may win a race, but with the
    little man playing politics this is unlikely.
    
    Paul

    There's another rumour : Footwork will break the Porsche contract,
    Porsche will retire.
    
    Based on the last 4 races, the Porsche appearance looks more and more
    like the LIFE story last year. For the time being Alboreto and Caffi
    are reported saying "it's a surprise when we manage to cover 5 laps in
    a row without loosing all the engine oil".
    
    It is true that Porsche have only been making mistakes since the TAG
    era. The CART and Group C programs are like the F1 program : erratic.

    Patrick,
    
    My comments on Senna referred to the season as a whole, not just
    Canada!
    
    As for Porsche, I thought they were due to have a new version of the
    engine for the second half of the season, but if the next couple of
    races go as before, they will surely drop out. Their market share is
    slipping fast without a duff F1 project to drag it down.
    
    Paul
    
    

    Just got a very interesting bit of info:
    
    the new Honda V12 is no better than the V10 in terms of performance. So
    why use it ?
    
    Because it is smaller (height probably) and LIGHTER !

RE .566

.567 partly answers your question. Walter Brun, in a Porsche 962, 
was victim of a horrendous accident where a man-hole cover got liftedout of the
road by the downdraught from a passing car. Brun crashed badly - the car was a
real mess, and I reckon that he was very lucky...

    
    Wasn't it actually Jesus Pareja driving?
    
    Mark

    Yep... It was Jesus 8-) There were 2 cars involved though I thought ?

    
    Wasn't the other one a Salamin Porsche?
    
    Mark

    The last three races have been won by Senna (twice) and Boutsen. There
    was no race in 1987 and the one before that was Mansell. 
    
    I can't see Senna getting beaten at the moment though I'd love a
    Williams 1-2 (in either order!). Don't figure the Ferraris but believe
    the Benettons will be well up.
    
    Colin

    With the USAC people talking about changing the engine rules for Indy,
    there's more to it than just keeping Ilmor out.  USAC wants more
    manufacturers in the show.  But Indy is the ONLY race of consequence
    they manage.  What happens if CART doesn't go along with the proposed
    rule change?  Yes folks, it's politics time.  It CART doesn't follow
    with rules changes of their own, then there may not be a field for the
    '92 Indy race.  Everyone in CART might stay home.  Some show.  On the
    other hand, they may go along on the basis that more competition comes
    in.  But if there isn't enough sponsorship money to run quality teams,
    the engine rule won't mean much.  It could be that USAC is betting that
    F1 teams might like to compete at Indy, and the heck with the CART
    folks.
    
    This is a continuation of the discussions that went on last year over a
    Euro oval track series and CART sanctioning a race in Australia.  It
    will get interesting.
    
    PAul
    

From rec.autos.sport  (245 lines)

(If you all follow this newsgroup let me know and I'll not cross-post. 
 There's also the Berger Interview from the same newgroup if anyone is interested).

Zayed



Article 9465 of rec.autos.sport:
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From: tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport
Subject: F1: Magny-Cours testing results from CompuServe
Summary: Forwarded CompuServe RIS F1 news
Message-ID: <1991May29.132900.3939@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
Date: 29 May 91 13:29:00 GMT
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       **************************************************
         F.I.A. FORMULA ONE NEWS AND INFORMATION NETWORK
       ***************************************************

May 24, 1991				 By Jim Thompson and Jeff Hutchinson


MCLAREN QUICKEST AT MAGNY-COURS TEST
------------------------------------

The McLaren-Honda team continued to dominate all they touch in Formula
One during testing at the new Magny-Cours circuit. Gerhard Berger and
Ayrton Senna took the quickest times at the FOCA test.

The test, which should have run from Tuesday to Thursday, was carried on
into Friday morning after rain once again cost the teams and Goodyear
one day of the test on Thursday.

The McLaren drivers lost most of the first day when Ayrton Senna,
Gerhard Berger and Stefano Modena were stuck in Nice following a
hydraulic problem with Ayrton's new HS125-800 jet. They lost another day
on Thursday between rain showers and it was not until Friday morning
that they finally ran qualifying tires for a quick time. Berger and
Senna ended with almost identical times at 1m 15,22 seconds, three
tenth's of a second faster than their nearest rivals which turned out to
be the Ferraris of Jean Alesi and Alain Prost.

For most of the teams, with the exception of ``locals'' Ligier, the
first day of the test was spent learning the new circuit and setting up
the chassis and gear ratios etc.

Senna had to do that most of the day on Wednesday. When he did finally
arrive at the track for the last couple of hours of practice on Tuesday
he managed only a couple of laps because of an engine misfire. Even his
second day was cut short just before the end of the session with more
engine problems. Senna was towed back to the pits after he switched off
and parked the car when he felt a strange vibration.

Berger didn't do much better the first day. His practice was interrupted
by a spin into the gravel traps. This caused problems for caused several
other competitors grief when the gravel was spread all over the circuit
and glued themselves to the sticky tires like rock studs, something
which could cause considerable problems for the race itself.

On Wednesday, both drivers tried different chassis settings and engine
adjustments, although both of them remained on half full tanks and race
tires. Senna looked tired after his grueling win in Monaco. He admitted
that he didn't really feel up to any quick laps so soon after the race.
He left Magny Cours for Sao Paulo where he hopes to fully re-charge his
batteries with his family before the Canadian Grand Prix and what he
hopes will be his fifth straight win of the season.

``This is a strange circuit,'' commented Berger . ``No matter what we do
to the car the times stay the same. You go quicker here and lose a bit
there, but the overall lap time stays the same.''

Goodyear's hopes of some serious tire testing on Thursday were spoiled
by the constant rain showers with brief period of dry running. ``We had
a lot of programs we wanted to work through, but once again the rain
killed that off just as everyone was ready to start testing,'' said a
disappointed Lee Gaug. He only managed one full program with Riccardo
Patrese and a few single back to back tests which were to brief to be
conclusive.

Schedules dictated that Goodyear's engineers and their trucks were
already gone by Friday morning which had not been scheduled for testing.
They had left the tires requested by the few teams that stayed on and
were not there to see Berger and Senna set their fastest laps.

Ferrari finished their running by Thursday evening. Alain Prost was
still not very happy with his Ferrari's performance, but he made no
secret of the fact that he was delighted by the change of management at
Ferrari. Alesi used qualifiers on Wednesday to set his best lap of the
week. For Prost, Wednesday ended with a tow back from the gravel trap
after a high-speed spin-off. Fortunately, the spin ended before the tire
barriers once again demonstrating the effectiveness of the traps if not
the practicality. Prost set his best time of the week on qualifiers on
Thursday. He set an impressive 1m 16.69 secs on race rubber.

The Williams-Renault team took the next fastest times of the session,
but it was a troubled test for their two drivers. Mansell lost most of
the best day when his car got stuck in gear in the morning. He lost more
time when a water leak and a blown rear tire at the end of the straight
spoiled what Renault had planned to be a long reliability run for their
latest engine.

``The tire probably picked up a puncture before the straight and then at
full speed down the straight it over-heated and let go under braking for
the hairpin,'' explained Mansell, who managed to keep his car on the
track. The following day was better despite for the rain. Mansell was
unable to get a qualifying run between the rain showers, although he did
get a few minutes of virtually dry track to get a quick lap on race
tires was an impressive 1m 16.93 secs.

Riccardo Patrese was only a second faster the previous day on qualifying
tires. His day was spoiled, as was the rest of the runs towards the end
of the session, when the oil filter gasket on his Renault engine let go
and allowed most of the engine's oil to get sprayed onto the engine and
the track. The car was a mess with oil and fire extinguisher powder
which had to be used when the oil around the hot exhaust pipes caught
fire. The Italian spent the final day carrying out a race run. His best
time of the week was good enough for fifth fastest. The team packed up
and left Magny Cours on Thursday evening.

``Compared to Monaco, it's like driving a Rolls Royce here,'' said
Mauricio Gugelmin. He was talking about his Leyton House which was
suddenly transformed from a dangerous bucking bronco to a competitive
racing car thanks to the super smooth Magny Cours surface. ``We had G-
meter measuring vertical G-forces over the bumps in Monaco and there
were peaks of 100 G with the average around 50Gs!'' explained Gugelmin.

Just as at the Paul Ricard circuit last year, the Magny Cours surface
saw the Leyton House performing much better than it had anywhere else.
However, reliability is another problem. Capelli and Gugelmin lost a lot
of time with engine and gearbox troubles. Even so, Gugelmin managed the
seventh fastest time of the week.

J.J.Lehto and Emanuele Pirro were sharing a single Dallara-Judd for the
test. Pirro started the test before handling over to Lehto who finally
ended up with a creditable eighth overall time.

Despite Ligier's already considerable experience around the track that
is literally on their doorstep, neither Thierry Boutsen nor Erik Comas
made a great deal of progress. Frank Dernie hopes to change this with a
major aerodynamic revision in the near future. Comas did manage to set a
reasonable time on qualifiers on Thursday. When Boutsen tried the same
thing on Friday he didn't get them to work as he should and was a second
off the time of his young teammate.

The Benetton team brought just one car for Nelson Piquet and Roberto
Moreno to share, and that was last year's old B190 chassis. The team
preferred to get their new cars back to England for more valuable
development time before the Canadian Grand Prix. It was a chance for
Piquet and Moreno to get used to the car and for Pirelli to try a whole
selection of tires which were certainly not as close to their Goodyear
rivals as they had been in Monaco. Moreno set the best time of the test
for Pirelli. He was a few hundredth's of a second quicker than Stefano
Modena who took over the single Tyrrell from Satoru Nakajima for the
second half of the test.

Andrea DeCesaris got the best day of the test on Wednesday with the
single Jordan-Ford present. However, he was disappointed at the end of
the day when his qualifying run was slowed by a fuel pick-up problem at
the hairpin at the end of the straight. ``I think the fuel surged to the
front of the tank and caused the engine to cut out into the hairpin,''
said Andrea who said he could have gone considerably quicker than his
best of 1m 18.10 secs. Bertrand Gachot's hopes of setting a good time on
qualifiers the following day were spoiled by the weather.

Olivier Grouillard started off with a troubled time with his Fomet-Ford
which split two oil radiators before the team modified them and got the
car running. At the end of the test he set a creditable 1m 18.14 secs,
although he will have to go a lot faster in July if he hopes to beat the
Dallara and Jordan teams who are the most likely to keep him out of his
home Grand Prix.

Oil problems were still uppermost in the minds of the Footwork-Porsche
team which saw Michele Alboreto running both the new and the old
Footwork chassis in a bid to overcome their oil pressure problems.
Porsche fitted new bigger pumps to the engine and Footwork made more
modifications to the oil tanks but Michele was still having to lift off
and cruise through the long fast corners after the pits in order to keep
the oil pressure light from coming on. Once they had established there
was nothing more they could do about the problem at Magny Cours, they
packed up and headed back to base, where they finally hope to cure their
oil surge problems for good.

Both Eric Van de Poele and Nicola Larini did numerous laps in the two
Modena team Lambos. Larini set a best time three tenth's of a second
slower than Grouillard. The two Lambo drivers look even less likely of
making it through pre-qualifying unless Mauro Foghieri comes up with
major improvements to his car before the race.

The Brabham team put plenty of miles on their BT60Y, but neither Martin
Brundle nor Mark Blundell set very quick times with their Pirelli
rubber. Brundle went to England on Thursday morning to take over the
wheel of the Jaguar sports car in Silverstone.

The Minardi team didn't get a lot done in Magny Cours. Gianni Morbidelli
ended up in the gravel trap on Wednesday and did not reappear
afterwards. Pierluigi Martini had to make do with the changing track
conditions on Thursday and didn't get the opportunity to make a quick
run because of gearbox problems.

Of the 15 teams present AGS was the slowest however, neither Gabriel
Tarquini nor Fabrizio Barbazza did more than a handful of laps each.


 MAGNY-COURS PRACTICE TIMES (May 14-17, 1991)
 --------------------------------------------

 1,Gerhard Berger, McLaren-Honda MP4/6, 1m 15,22 secs;
 2,Ayrton Senna, McLaren-Honda MP4/6, 1m 15,23 secs;
 3,Jean Alesi, Ferrari 642,  1m 15,52 secs;
 4,Alain Prost, Ferrari 642, 1m 15,72 secs;
 5,Riccardo Patrese, Williams-Renault FW14, 1m 15,91 secs;
 6,Nigel Mansell, Williams-Renault FW14, 1m 16,93 secs;
 7,Ivan Capelli, Leyton House-Ilmor CG911, 10 17,49 secs;
 8,J.J. Lehto, Dallara-Judd V10 BMS191, 10 17,53 secs;
 09,Eric Comas, Ligier-Lamborghini JS35, 1m 17,58 secs;
 10,Roberto Moreno, Benetton-Ford B190B, 1m 17,94 secs;
 11,Stefano Modena, Tyrrell-Honda 020, 1m 17,98 secs;
 12,Andrea DeCesaris, Jordan-Ford HB JR1, 1m 18,10 secs;
 13,Olivier Grouillard, Fomet-Ford DFR 191, 1m 18,14 secs;
 14,Nicola Larini, Lamborghini-Lambo 2, 1m 18,46 secs;
 15,Thierry Boutsen, Ligier-Lamborghini JS35, 1m 18,55 secs;
 16,Nelson Piquet, Benetton-Ford HB B190B, 1m 18,77 secs;


MIXED FEELINGS OVER NEW CIRCUIT.
--------------------------------

For most of the drivers present at the FOCA test it was the first time
that they had seen the new Magny Cours circuit. While all of them were
full of praise for the impressive roomy pits and parking facilities, not
all were so thrilled with the track itself. Some found the ultra-smooth
surface lacking character, others said some of the corners lacking
interest and many were not excited about the thought of having their
race end by being stuck in the gravel run-off areas because of a simple
mistake, or even the mistake of someone else if they left gravel all
over the circuit.

Ayrton Senna made several points about the circuit, the most important
of which was the fact that many of the corners are blind either going in
or coming out. ``It is very difficult to judge many of the corners
because you cannot see the corner until you are actually committed so
you have to know the circuit very well before you can commit yourself to
a quick lap. Also I am very wary of the high curbs around the corners.
The car's can be run very low here because of the smooth surface, but
that means that if you spin or run wide over a curb they can do a lot of
damage to the underside of the car,'' explained Senna.

Other drivers thought the track lacked enough overtaking places, even
though it is as wide or wider then the FISA regulation width. ``There
are only a couple of places where you can overtake, and there are too
many S-bends where you have no choice but to follow another car.
Personally, I would also be happier if the track was not so smooth. A
few small bumps helps to remind you where you are on the circuit and
where to make the braking points etc. When a track is as smooth as this
one, it takes the interest out of driving fast,'' commented Berger, the
current record holder!

[ \tom haapanen --- university of waterloo --- tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu ]
[ "i don't even know what street canada is on"               -- al capone ]

    
    I have this vague recollection that someone posted a list of the Jaguar
    XJR15 races somewhere in here.  Despite a few searches nothing has
    appeared.
    
    Anyone got the list ?  Or more to the point, is the final one at SPA,
    and is anyone planning on going ?
    
    
    
    Nigel

    Any pre-race information guys? 8-)
    
    .......of course I mean for Montreal not France
    
    
		George Frost

    I have watched the XJR15 practice under light rain at Monaco. Beautiful
    cars making a beautiful noise. 
    
    One excellent driver (surprise, surprise): Derek Warwick, some good
    drivers : Davy Jones, David Brabham, some average race drivers and the
    "gentleman drivers" (doing relatively well).
    
    Recommendation: go to either Silverstone or Spa and watch the XJR15 !
    
    good old days ...

    Just got the Montreal pre-qual results. Surprise surprise ! The
    Scuderia Italia and the Jordan team will compete ...
    
    1. Pirro
    2. Jarvilehto
    3. De Cesaris
    4. Gachot
    
    All 4 in the 1'23"-1'24" bracket. Last year : Berger's fastest lap was
    in the 1'22" bracket. Senna's pole in the 1'20".

    One more change. A 4th man has joined the Ferrari troika : Francesco
    LONGHANESI formerly with FISA is now the team manager. The 642 has a
    revised front aileron and millions of minor changes according to
    aerodynamics guru Jean-Claude Migeot. The 643 is still planned for
    French GP (7th July).

      I knew as soon as Nigell started waving before the race
    was over that he would not finish.He jinxed himself.
    
      It was nice to see Benneton take it,also to see Jordan in the
    points.Eddie Jordan was beside himself with joy.
    
      Even with the circuit resurfaced it was still very rough on
    the cars,especially evident on the in-car shots.
    
      I'm definitly going next year!
    
    KC

    
    Just not Williams day.
    
    Patrese would have been there to pick up an easy win had it not been
    for that puncture.
    
    Still, there's always Mexico. 
    
    Did we see a shift in the balance of power, or just a freak race? Have
    Mclaren had their day? Only time will tell.
    
    Mark
    
    PS What did the grid look like? I spent all weekend moving house!

    
    The big question is  :-
    
    What happened to SKY sports coverage ?  Turned on, tuned in, and found a
    2 hour Stefan Edberg and his  route to Wimbledon special.  Looked at
    Satellite Times, that never wrong more than once an hour mag, and it
    had the Grand prix listed.
    
    Have they failed to pay the bills ?  Couldn't they find Canada ?
    
    	
    Nigel

	Mr Mansell, what a plonker !

	So it's worth wasting a win just to say you at least got the
	fastest lap. What did he think he was doing ?

	Alex a_very_disappointed_and_possible_ex_Nigel_fan

    re-1
    
    Here, Here
    
    What a Plonker
    
    Grant

I get the distinct feeling that Hunt knew the last lap result when he made
his comments about Mansell's late fast laps. I could have a little more 
respect for Hunt's opinions if he had driven in anger in the last 10 years!!

Seriously though, it was more than a little heart-wrenching for a williams
fan to see that finish.

The heart will go in defense of Mansell, even if the head has a few 
reservations. He was the fastest driver on the day..... 

Terry

RE last few - why was Mansell a plonker?

If the darned software on that gearbox is going to pack up - then its going to
pack up. Patrese had similar problems - he said that the gearbox was very
difficult to change for the last 15 laps, and almost impossible for the last 5.

What news did you hear in the UK that I didn't hear in mainland Europe?

Steve

    
    The question seems to be, did the gearbox fail, or did he run out of
    petrol? Only Williams know for sure...
    
    If it was the gearbox, it was just bad luck for Mansell, a couple of
    quick laps wouldn't have caused it to fail. Let's face it, if it had
    happened less than 2 miles later, he'd have won the race! Also, don't
    forget what happened to Senna when he was cruising to an easy victory
    at Monaco a few years ago. It  doesn't directly compare, but try
    driving at 50 mph on a wide dual carriageway and watch your own
    concentration wander (Obviously this excludes those super humans
    amongst you, who's concentration behind the wheel NEVER wanders. :^)).
    
    If he ran out of fuel, then those fast laps were a futile and very
    costly error of judgement.
    
    BTW, the official line is gearbox as far as I know.
    
    Mark

> RE last few - why was Mansell a plonker?

Do you mean to say that it is perfectly OK to be over 50 seconds in the lead,
2 or 3 laps to go to the finish, and then put in a rocketlike lap time, on
a car with a gearbox that is prone to failure.

Or are you too like Mansell ?

Alex still_upset_over_the_race

re. -1

The attacks on Mansell seem to based on the fact that he put some fast laps in
late in the race. In particular, he put in a fastest lap shortly after 
Patrese had unlapped himself. Anyone having the misfortune to watch the
BBC2 highlights would have been left in no doubt by James Hunt as to how
"foolish" and "unprofessional" this was. I do not agree, but am sure that
as everyone is now gifted with perfect hindsight, we will hear lots of comments
about Mansell blowing the race.

Oh well, 2 weeks 'till the rematch

Terry

He didn't run out of petrol. La5 - a French channel which covers motor
racing very well - talked straight away with the director of the Renault racing
operation. This was even before Mansell got his lift from Patrese.

They asked the guy directly whether Mansell was out of fuel (which is what
I thought might have happened). He categorically said 'no' - the telemetry
read-out as Mansell want past the pits on his last lap was perfect - and the
had plenty of fuel left in reserve.

So, what did Walker and Hunt say on UK television? Are they resorting to
"Sun" style speculative journalism!! :-)

Steve

    
    As far as I know the faults on the Williams gearbox are not mechanical
    (as a rule), but more S/W related. The car stops changing gear, rather
    than something in the box breaking. I can't really see how going fast
    would cause such a fault, but there again I don't really know what did
    happen.
    
    Re .597. Telemetry has been known to be hopelessly wrong in the past 
    and maybe, just maybe, asking someone so soon after an incident what 
    happened may lead to an automatic response rather than an informed one?
    
    Mark

.598

Mark, I agree with you totally - sums up my view of the proceedings.

Steve

>                          -< Software is the problem >-

How can software suddenly stop working ?

Alex  very_confused_what_software_and_hardware_is_after_all_these_years_person

    re-1
    
    It *HAS* bugs in it.
    
    Grant

    
    I think the answer is, as I think John Lincoln once said, the
    interaction between the natural variances in fit in a warmed up 
    gearbox and the tolerances the S/W can cope with.
    
    Or it could just be the H/W can't cope with the stresses of being 
    bolted to a chassis which causes the driver to suffer double vision!
    
    Mark :^)
    

    Regardless of the end result it was a great drive by Mansell. I'm not
    going to point fingers, just feel sorry for the guy. It looks like
    the season is opening up nicely after the initial dominance. Still
    can't see Ferrari getting their act together tho'.
    
    Good to see Jordan getting some points and also to see Capelli running
    in the points till the Ilmor failed. L/House could come good later in
    the season.
    
    On the pre-qual front 11 teams have now scored points since Germany
    last year, the 4 currently not prequalifying who have not and are at
    risk being:
    
    Brabham
    Footwork
    AGS
    Ligier
    
    Any bets on who misses out?
    
    Paul

    Hurrah, hurrah,
    
    For me a fine race by everyone concerned - including Ferrari! They have
    shown that they are now competitive re performance, reliability to come.
    What the heck had the provious Team Manager done to get the car into
    such a poor state? 
    A lot of work has obviously been done.
    Alesi had a lot to say about the poor state of his car though, and he
    wasn't too polite by implication either. He was coming on strong when
    the car packed up.
    
    Williams - previous noters have said it all...not enough about car
    wrecker Mansell though.
    
    McLaren? I take it that bets are off from the dreamers who predicted a
    clean sweep this year?
    Nice to see Prost forcing Senna and just waiting to pounce to pass him
    and join the leaders.
    
    Picquet the old timer had a deserved win.
    
    Roll on Mexico!
    

    Enough of this car wrecker Mansell George. Patrese also had gearbox
    troubles that forced him to halt his charge on Piquet.
    
    As for a deserved win for Piquet, he was third in line at least!
    
    Glad to see you reckon Ferrari did well. Two broken cars is a wonderful
    record, particularly when neither ran higher than 4th (I think). Senna
    was quoted as holding back early in the race to preserve tyres, maybe
    that's why Prost could stay with him ;-)
    
    Paul

    Why is it that when Senna is out in front, its a forgone conclusion,
    but when Mansell was so far in the lead and Murray Walker was saying it
    was in the bag I was just waitting for something to go wrong. Still I
    couldn't believe his luck soooooo close to the finish.
    
    Words of wisdom from Hunt with regard his concern at Mansell getting
    fastest lap, when he should have been just cruising home. Wonder if it
    would've made any difference though ? 
    
    - Roy
    
    PS For anyone thats interested - EF91 is back in action.

    
    BTW Whoever it was who said that they'd have more respect for Hunt
    if he'd raced in the last 10 years may soon regain some respect for
    him.
    
    Rumour has it 'The Shunt' will be driving a Mercedes 190 Evo 2 in 
    the ITR cup races at Donnington in October.
    
    Mark

	I am somewhat amazed, all of these replies and nobody seems
	to have noticed what actually happened. But then if people
	believe that these gearbox failures are 'software' then
	they'll believe anything.

	About two corners into the last lap Mansell drove right across
	the top of a foot high kerb, dragging the bottom of the car
	along the rough concrete. Something broke and the twit knew it
	because he started waving his arm angrily about. Murray Walker,
	true to form, said he was waving to the crowd!. The car was
	still driveable though and if he'd just left the gears alone,
	as other better drivers would have, he'd still have made it but
	the change down for the hairpin finally did it. It will be 
	interesting to hear Nige's explanation for what happened.

	Piquet was clearly delighted with this development, and so
	of course was I. However the embarrassing spectre of Mansell
	looms great because the Williams, which has looked all year
	the best car, now has a clear cushion on the opposition. I
	hope Patrese gets the lions share of the honours, as indeed he 
	deserves to.

	Piquets win was the first for Pirelli since the French GP 84 ?.
	Ironically Piquet was the driver on that occasion too, in a 
	Brabham.

	I don't think I can remember a new team to F1, doing anywhere
	near as well as Jordan in their first season, and many others 
	have had much bigger budgets. However for much of the race they
	were still behind the Dallaras, also very much a top half team.

	Poor Lamborghini just can't get past pre-qualifying with these
	four cars around and must be eagerly awaiting the half season 
	point when they'll surely be able to easily dispense with those
	moving down.

	Good competitive race, hopefully more to come.

	-John

re.609:

I was suprised that for someone with an huge lead he was using the kerbs
a lot. Must have been taking lessons from Berger.

/Dave.

Whatever the whys and wherefores of Mansell's losing the race, I have to say
that the big bonus for me was the unpredictability of the race, for the first
time in a long while (not just this season).

I watched the BBC2 highlights not knowing the result, and to see Senna go out
was exciting (although I don't suppose he saw it that way....), then Patrese got
his puncture, Prost went out, Alesi went out, etc. etc. etc.......then Mansell
went when he looked like he was walking it.

Whether Mansell caused his own demise, I guess only he will stand a chance of 
knowing for sure, but I think I for one would not go out and post a
"fastest lap" at that stage of the race, if I were 50 seconds ahead -- perhaps
he wouldn't have gone over that high kerb if he hadn't have been on the
sporting equivalent of a suicide mission.....

This is the first GP I've wanted to watch since about the middle of last season,
and it's certainly going to make me watch the next one!!


SD

    John,
    
    Sorry to disagree, but I reckon Murray was right. Only having the
    highlights (courtesy of Sky and Eurosport ducking out) one can't be
    sure, but Nige was at full racing speed for all of the last lap until
    the hairpin, when he just stopped.
    
    I didn't notice him going over a kerb, but maybe Inside Track on
    Thursday will shed some light.
     
    Paul