Conference terri::cars_uk

    As a result of an ongoing discussion in 1188 relating to Toyota MR2s, I
    thought I'd share with you the reactions I've received from a number of
    vehicle franchises (not an exhaustive list) relating to whether they
    can modify the driver's seat position to accommodate my legroom
    requirements (I'm 6' 7"):-
    
    Rover Group			"No, there is no demand for this"
    Volvo			"No problem! How far back do you want it?"
    Vauxhall			"Dunno sir"
    BMW				"Not possible"  [not necessary either]
    Mercedes			"Not possible in a 190, try a 200 instead"
    Renault			"What a strange question"
    Fiat/Lancia			"I'm sure we could work something out, but
                                 it might invalidate the warranty"
    VW/Audi			"No"
    Citroen			"Citroen offer a seat extension kit, would
                                 you like me to get a costing for you?"
    Subaru			"No"
    Toyota			"Sorry, not at present"
    Mazda			"Gosh, how tall are you?" [aaaaargh]
    

    
    Oh well,
    
    Being neither overtall or overwide I don't have problems with many cars
    (although my head brushed the roof of a Pug 205 I rode in once), but 
    both my cars suit tall people very well.
    
    The Renault 5 is a tall car and has plenty of headroom, a number of
    tall people have commented on how comfortable they find the car as both
    passengers and drivers.
    
    The Marcos is a car specifically designed for tall people. At 5' 10" I
    have to have the pedals fully BACK to drive the car and anyone shorter
    would need a cushion behind them to reach the pedals (a specially
    designed squab and back cushion known as a tadpole is available), so
    if you want an unusual, fast and comfortable (well in terms of 
    legroom anyway!) car then the Marcos is probably worth a look. Getting
    into a coupe (rather than a convertible Spyder) might prove difficult
    for someone over 6' 2" though!
    
    Mark

    Alfas have been great for me (6'4"), and I like to drive
    "arms-extended". One of the early ones (the 1300 Gullietta Veloce
    Sypder, I think) I had to clip of the stops on the seat rail so it
    would slid all the way back.
    
    russ

    I've got the the same problem. I'm 6'5" and my problem isn't so
    much legroom but HEADROOM. 
    
    This is many caused by nearly all manufacturers fitting sunroofs
    as standard on their cars. Consequently reducing significantly the
    headroom. The worst are electric sunroosfs, because not only is
    the headroom reduced to accommadate the sunroof when it slides _under_
    the roof but also for electric motor. A classic example of this
    is the GSi cavalier which despite having a seat height adjuster,
    I'm still bent double. (I find seat height adjustment a waste of
    time because they only seem to raise the seat and not lower it.
    
    Has anyone else got problems like these ?
    
    Roy 

Take the front seats out of a mini and cut the roof off!


Ian

	Well, compared to you lot, I'm a little short-a*s, however, I have great
	problems finding cars with enough leg-room.


	I am 5'8".    

	I have 36" inside leg, and often wear 1.5" heels (thats if I can find 
	them that low!)
	
	I don't like driving with my legs apart to fit around the steering 
	wheel, as that causes my dress/skirt to end up around my waist, and
	has a detrimental effect on the driving capabilities of lorry drivers.

	If you're tall, then people tend to understand requests for seats to 
	be put back.

	I tend to get the comment - but you're not that tall - along with a
	look which says women should never have been allowed to take the 
	driving test!

	The car salesmen then have the intellectual capabilities of a spotty
	teanager when I have a test-drive.

	The other thing is, if I do eventually get the leg-room, I can't
	reach the steering wheel!

	The NG is absolutely ace for leg-room, and steering wheel position.
	Getting in/out with the soft-top on and a tight skirt is another story!

	I had a Peugot 1.3, the steering wheel was high enough to allow my
	legs to get under it, and with the seat right back, really driveable.
	
	I couldn't get anywhere near the Rover 216/8xx - knees under my chin!

	My dad's Seirra is another impossibility - but at 6'4" and 15 stone 
	he has no problem.
	(then he's only got a 33" inside leg)

	Most of the adjustable steering wheels allow for the "new lower racing
	position" - I need them higher, not lower.

	The landrover is fine, I would prefer to be a little further back
	- nothing to do with legroom tho'.

	I have a Montego - this is just OK with the seat full back - however
	Dave and I between us are forever changing the mirrors/seat position.
	He can't reach the pedals to drive it with the seat back, although
	he's 2.5" taller than me.

	Cest la vie...................................

	Heather

	PS I had a mini cooperess that had the seat welded further back, that 
	was really ace around the Devon/Cornwall country roads.

Have you found out about the delights of bump steer then Hevs?


Simon

	I don't want to talk about bumps thanks - still not sure whether we
	will be able to go around Castle Coombe on Saturday.


	'%$#"\@ male drivers

    The first Astra I had (old, square style) could easily have the seat
    re-positioned. Take out 4 bolts, and then re-bolt it into another
    hole... there were (if I remember) 2 rows of 3 holes on the plate, with
    about an inch lower and 1.5 back or forwards from the standard
    position.
    	This allowed a comfortable position.
    
    Since then it's Vauxhalls all the way, with a seat height adjuster that
    seemed to lower the seat, rather than just raise it, and a tilting
    upwards wheel, so that I can get my knees under it.
    
    I also tried the latest Escort / Orion. That has a wheel that can be
    adjusted for reach - so that I can have the seat right back, but still
    reach the wheel. If only the seat height adjuster lowered the seat,
    rather than being another tilting device...
    
    Cheers, Chris
    

    Me: This car is a little short of headroom.
    
    Salesman: Well, sir, this model is fitted with adjustable seat height.
    All you have to do is to move this little lever, one way makes it go
    up, and the other way makes it go down. If you make the seat go down,
    this gives you the most headroom..."
    
    Me: Strange as it may seem, I am not actually a half-wit. I had spotted
    the lever, and lowered the seat as far as it would go. The car is still
    short of headroom.
    
    Salesman: Well, sir, you are probable unusually tall, most people find
    it OK.
    
    Me: Most people aren't going to drive it, I am.
    
    Salesman: Yes, sir. Its the sunroof, sir, it takes out an inch and a
    half of the headroom, you see.
    
    Me: Fine, show me one without a sunroof then.
    
    Salesman: Oh, they don't make this model without a sunroof, theres no
    demand, you see.
    
    Me: So the guff about the sunroof taking out headroom is BS, because
    the standard car has it fitted.
    
    Salesman: Well, you could try it with the seat back reclined. That
    would allow your head to clear the roof.
    
    Me: Yes, but then I cannot reach the steering wheel.
    
    Salesman: Well, sir, on this model the wheel adjusts for height and
    rake, so everybody can find a comfortable position.
    
    Me: But how does that let me reach the wheel?
    
    Salesman: Well just move the back rest up a bit...
    
    Me: BUT I'VE GOT NO HEADROOM....
    
    
    Steve

    It surprises me that so many people have mentioned the problem of
    sunroofs taking away headroom. I thought i was the only one.
    
    If only manufacturers would offer an alternative of no sunroof
    i'd go for that every time. I guess its more cost effective just
    to mass produce all cars with sunroofs rather than offering them
    as a no cost option.
    
    When considering a car, the first i check is if it has a sunroof.
    Sometimes i'm all set to order car only to find out that the car
    now comes with a "sunroof as standard"
    
    -Roy

    Re .12
    
    You're not alone on that one Roy .....
    

    Hey John,
    
    Even though the Calibra has a sunroof, I found it very roomy.	
    I understand that you're looking for a new car, have you considered
    it ?
    
    The sunroof slides over the roof and presents no probs.
    
    - Roy

    I'll pop into Davys tonight and have a shuftie....

    The obvious solution is for manufacturers to change the position of
    the sunroof slightly, or make it larger, so your head pokes out through
    it.  Something like a Challenger tank.
    
    Jeff :-)

	Well, I have absolutely no problems with headroom.


	should I cut 5" off my legs, and use that to increase the length
	of my arms and neck?



	Heather

    Re .17
    
    Sounds like the only option.
    
    Mark

    Maybe for those with headroom / sunroof problems a list of cars that
    do NOT have sun-roofs would be useful.... I haven't found any yet in my
    price bracket...

    Heather,
    
    Try a Volvo 1800 S - they are designed for Swedes - no legroom or
    headroom problem - and ideal is long legs and short arms, then you're
    really comfortable.
    
    Paul 

    Cars where I have not had problems are:
    
    Ford Granada Ghia - has a real height adjuster and wheel adjustable for
    rake and reach
    
    Toyota Camry - seems right anyway
    
    Vauxhall Carlton - headroom OK, but if the seat is far enough back for
    my legs, I can't reach the wheel
    
    Ford Sierra - marginal
    
    Vauxhall Cavalier - again marginal.
    
    Seems to me if you spend "Executive" car money, you are OK. If you want
    something smaller, be prepared to spend your motoring life in a kind of
    foetal crouch.
    
    BTW the Peugeot 605 appears marginal, but I have only sat in it.
    
    Steve

Car with no sunroof: Citroen BX Estate (not hatchback). Sunroof not
available even as an option, plus headroom miles better than hatchback to
start with due to higher roof line. 

Would guess ok for giants, but maybe only duck-like ones since I reckon the
steering column housing's a bit low.  Saying this 'cos even my knee
(approx. 1/2 way down 30" inside leg) bumps it when I try to heel & toe. 

Steering rake/height/reach not adjustable on any BXs.

Richard

    Re .22
    
    Yes, but Citoren fit that wierd single wiper, and if you are tall
    enough to need the headroom, you are looking through the top third of
    the screen. This part of the screen is only half swept, so whilst you
    will have a fair view of the pavement in the wet, you will just have to
    guess at the oncoming traffic. Makes driving exciting.
    
    You also will be unable to reach the radio, heater controls, and quite
    possibly the steering wheel.
    
    Other than that, it is terriffic. (Not sarcy - my short-lived BX GTi
    had the most wonderful chassis and driveline; I would have it still if
    I could have got in it.)
    
    Steve

    Well I tried a Calibra last night at Davy's in Basingstoke, and was
    amazed to find that both legroom and headroom were fine - and that was
    in a car with a sunroof!
    
    

    John,
    
    That should be one for Vauxhalls books, that a Calibra can comfortably
    fit someone thats 6' 7 ! which one would interest you ? the 8v or 16v
    or even the new 4x4. Will you need to get an auto or was the 5 speed OK
    ?
    
    I'm 6' 5 and prefer small cars. Two hatchbacks that I've found
    surprising good for headroom (my main problem) is the R 5 GT turbo
    (when it comes standard it has no sunroof) and the Fiesta RS turbo/XR2i
    although that has a sunroof it only tilts, it doesn't slide back so it
    doesn'r rob you of those precious inches.

    Funny you should say that - I'm thinking of an Escort Cabriolet ... but
    after owning one XR2 and leasing a second, I'm extremely suspicious of
    Ford in general - they sometimes forget that customers pay their
    salaries ..... BMW doesn't (forget).
    
    On the subject of the Calibra, I'd definitely go for an 8v, but only
    because of the lease price of the vehicle.
    
    I've just been speaking to Clover Leaf in Basingstoke about the '91
    spec for Volvo 440s.  In their infinite wisdom, Volvo have decided to
    fit as standard sunroofs to all 440s with the exception of the base
    model.  This is a pain, because otherwise the Volvo would have been
    an ideal contender.
    
    Mr Volvo at Clover Leaf was disappointed when I told him I wouldn't be
    selecting a 440 after all.
    

    Interesting that you would go for an 8v, I would myself for the
    same reasons as you (price). The factis i read that vauxhall were
    reckoning to sell far more 16v models than 8v, about two thirds
    if i remember correctly. I don't about you, although i haven't seen
    that many calibras on the road the majority have been 8v (you can
    tell easily because the 8v has the same tacky wheel trims as the
    SRi, whereas thee 16v has GSi alloy wheels). On Howard's Way on
    Sunday (Ah hem, just happened to watch it)some guy drove up in a
    calibra which judging by the wheel trims was an 8v. 
    
    Seems to me that vauxhall may ahve got their sums wrong. 
    
    Any body agree/disagree ?
    
    - Roy

    
    I've not seen an 8 valve yet (all the demonstrators or cars on the
    road I've seen have been 16 valves). Are you sure about the wheels?
    I didn't think that 16 valve wheels were the same as the the GSi, but
    I don't KNOW there not.
    
    Mark
    
    PS I'm more interested in the 16 valve, but the 8 valve got a better
    review than the 16 valve in last week's A&M.

Re: .28

I read somewhere that the 8v Calibra is much smoother and quieter than the 16v.

Not that I would be interested in either.

jb

    
    Re .31
    
    It isn't unusual for a lower powered version of a car to be smoother
    and quieter than the high(er) performance versions.
    
    Try driving a 1.3 Escort and then an RS Turbo, or a GTX Renault 5 and
    then a 5 GT Turbo.
    
    If you don't want any power from your Calibra then the 8 valve is
    probably a good choice (also good on motorways I'd guess), but that
    115 bhp engine is a really gutless engine.
    
    Mark

I'm 1.97m tall (work it out!) and drive a BX.  I got one without a sunroof which
means that headroom is not a problem.  Legroom is a bit cramped but OK.  As 
Steve said, the radio is awkward to reach but that's mainly because it's in such
a dumb position behind the gearstick anyway.  My main complaint is that the rear
view mirror is mounted low down the windscreen so it obscures part of my field 
of view.

I found that you have to try legroom for yourself - for instance, the Volvo 340 
has a couple of inches extra quoted legroom than the BX but felt more cramped.
All sorts of factors come into play like the size of the steering wheel.

Jon

>>   <<< Note 1228.33 by VOGON::BALL "Have you got a licence for that pun?" >>>
>>view mirror is mounted low down the windscreen so it obscures part of my field 
>>of view.
    
    
    On the original BX they were a lot higher. But, due to the low rear
    roof line it limited the view of the road behind in the distance. Thus
    the mirror was mounted further down from about 1986 onwards. 
    
    Richard

    I find the rear view mirror too low on astras and cavaliers.
    
    If you twist the mirror upsidedown, it raises the hight and gives
    just as good visability out the back and improves forward vision.
    
    I don't know if you can do this on the BX. Can you still get BX
    hatchbacks without a sunroof, I thought they were standard on all
    models now except the estate ?
    
    - Roy

>Can you still get BX hatchbacks without a sunroof,

Mine's a BX14 TGE on which the sunroof was an option when I got it in May.
The models may have changed since then or it may be standard on 16's and 19's.

Jon

 I find the same problem with rear view mirror on the carlton, and I am only 
5'6".!!!!!!!



	 Alan
	~~~~~~

    My carlton's mirror is on a little stalk jointed at both ends, so I can
    move the mirror bodily up til it touches the roof, where it normally
    sits. I can thus see out unobstructed. 
    
    However, the steering wheel adjusts up and down, but not in and out, so
    with the seat far enough back to deal with the pedals properly, and the
    seat set as low as possible so I don't hit the roof, I am forced both
    to have the seat backrest bolt upright and arms straight out to the
    wheel.
    
    I'd go back to a Grandad, if they only fitted them with engines that
    revved to 4000+ without sounding like its about to come through the
    bonnet in bits.
    
    Steve

    I also position my Carlton just like you... (mirror, seats etc). Just
    for a change I sometimes also position it:
    
    Seat 1 or 2 notches forward.
    Wheel up 1 or 2 notches (to get the knees under it)
    Seat back tilted backwards a little, and also raised up by 3/4".
    
    This gives a totally different driving position - I don't think that it
    is as comfortable - but it is different!

I hired a brand new Sierra 1.8LX with sunroof at the weekend.  I'm not *that*
tall, at a fraction over 6 foot, but it took a lot of adjusting to stop my
head pressing against the ceiling.  I think I'll stick to my VW Beetle, which
has about 6 inches of head room!

Mat.
*:o)

    I think sierras are fitted with a seat height adjuster did you try
    that ? 
    
    I've found sierra very good for headroom, I just _hate_ the shape.
    
    - Roy (6'5")
    

Yup.  I turned the height adjuster all the way down, messed about with the
backward/forward adjustment, seat back angle, and lumbar support, but with
no improvement.  I think its because I have a long body and short legs 
(relatively speaking!).  Removal of the sun roof would have given me
all the room I needed.  Why don't they build cars higher if the default is
to fit a sun roof?

Mat.
*:o)

    >> Why don't they build cars higher if the default is to fit a sun
    roof?

    Easy ! If they built them higher it would reduce the areodynamics
    (sp?)

Have any of you "tall guys" sat in the new escort/orion ?

I had a look at the orion LX at Jackson's at lunchtime and was horrified by the
lack of space. Again this was caused by a sunroof. There is definately less room
than the old style.

Has anyone else found this ? and do you know if the top of the range models
(ie ghia) have a seat height adjuster ?

- Roy

    see .10
    
    The Orion did have a seat tilt-adjuster that claimed to be a height
    adjuster.
    
    The steering wheel moved in and out - so  that by pulling it out as
    far as possible, I could tip the seat back and lie down in the car, so
    that I didn't hit the roof; and because of the movaable wheel I could 
    still steer.
    
    I couldn't see  what to steer round, though, becuase  I  was lying
    down!

    
    What about an MG Maestro EFI ?. Loads of legroom and plenty of
    headroom.
    My boyfriend has no problems (6'5" with 35" inside leg). He also fits
    in a Pug 205 with no problems (without a sunroof though - if it has a
    sunroof his hair gets trapped !).
    
    Karen
    

	Hi Karen, I thought I'd mentioned these two:    


>    What about an MG Maestro EFI ?. Loads of legroom and plenty of
>    headroom.
 
	My last car was an MG Maestro EFI - I had no problems either.

>   My boyfriend has no problems (6'5" with 35" inside leg). He also fits
>    in a Pug 205 with no problems (without a sunroof though - if it has a
>    sunroof his hair gets trapped !).
 
	My previuos car to the Maestro was a Pug 205, and I had no problems 
	with that.   
    

	My current car is a Montego 2.0 GTI, with no problems.

	HOWEVER, it took me ages to find these cars, after numerous test-driving
	and dissapointments.
    
	Heather

	- my hair gets trapped when I close the window too quickly!!!!!!!

>	- my hair gets trapped when I close the window too quickly!!!!!!!

Maybe you should wear your flying helmet in that car as well :-)

    Interesting you can fit the Montego GTI... 
    
    I had a standard Montego as a hire car when my car was in for a
    service - and I had to take it back before driving any further than
    the 10 miles to work and back - it wasn't safe to drive anyfirther with
    my head on one side.

       I don't have headroom problems, just legroom...........


	Maybe I could swith my legs for yours, and I'd have no problems?


	Heather	  :-)

    Well, I've finally decided what my new lease-mobile is going to be -
    well, when I say I've decided, perhaps "think I've decided" would be
    more accurate.
    
    On my shortlist were:
    
    Land Rover Discovery TDi (too expensive by far)
    Vauxhall Calibra 8V (a bit more than I want to pay)
    Ford Escort Cabriolet EFi (the right price, but not really big enough)
    BMW 316iA [same as current] (more expensive than willing to pay)
    Volvo 480ES (a bit more than I want to pay, but not as much as the
     Calibra!)
    
    My choice:
    
    The Volvo - plenty of legroom, very comfortable, headroom OK,
    different, chic.
    
    Voila!
    

    Mmmmmm, perhaps I meant the Volvo is not as expensive in "It's only a
    Vauxhall" terms? :-)
    
    

    I'm sure I'm not the only 6ft+ guy who is upset at manufacturers
    insisting in putting in sunroof's that rob valueable headroom.
    
    Well, you maybe interested that when discussing this problem with
    a salesman when looking at the Rover 200 range, he informed me that
    you can order a Rover with a "delete" option.
    
    So you could have a car with a sunroof thats standard without the
    sunroof !
    
    I don't know if any other companies can offer this, but I have been
    put off cars in the past through lack of headroom, just because
    it has a sunroof.
    
    - Roy

    .56 is seriously INTERESTING. It raises the possibility of, say,
    deleting the sunroof and lecky windows, and ordering air conditioning
    in its place.
    
    The question is, how much do they knock off for deleting the sunroof?
    
    Pound to a bowl of used prunes they charge extra!
    
    Steve

    Steve, I got the impression that they would'nt knock off any money,
    but they wouldnt charge extra.
    
    Check it out, I didn't pursue it but thought it was worth a mention
    here.
    
    - Roy

Re:
>    Well, you maybe interested that when discussing this problem with
>    a salesman when looking at the Rover 200 range, he informed me that
>    you can order a Rover with a "delete" option.
>    
Roy 

Did you find out how much this option costs?

Dave (whos wonderin how much it'll cost to wield the roof back in :-) :-) )

    
    I entered into correspondence with Rover on this point, as I
    had to have the seat back uncomfortably far back to sit upright!
    
    At the time, an electric sunroof was listed as a delete option 
    in the Rover price list, although the local dealer didn't seem to 
    think it was possible to arrange this. The outcome was Rover saying 
    that the electric sunroof had to be supplied with the Gsi variant, 
    and they lost a sale.  It was very annoying at the time, because I
    really liked everything else about the car. They've probably
    lost 1000's of sales because of this drawback/feature. 
    
    Lack of headroom was apparantly the most common comment people came 
    up with when sitting in the car for the first time at the Earls
    Court last year, so the sales people told me.
    
    I've since noticed in later blurb that there is no mention of delete
    options. Maybe their waiting list is so great just now they can 
    afford not to worry about costly individual specifications that
    might interrupt the production process for this model, but for how
    long!
    
    Gordon
    

    Thanks Gordon for clarifying this.
    
    I thought about this a while back when deciding on a car. I thought that
    as the "Si" doesn't come with a sunroof (or much else) and was cheap on
    the lease scheme (not to mention <1400cc tax bracket) it might be worth
    putting in a quote with desired options (ie. electric windows etc.)
    
    - Roy

I currently drive a 205 XLD but due to lack of leg room it causes my bad back. 
Can anyone please suggest what I could test drive which would give me oodles of 
legroom without being a completely boring family type car.

Anne

A Golf ?

We're all different shapes, so try a number of cars, especially those with seat
height and lumbar adjustments (as opposed to just legroom and rake).

Dave.
P.S. I get back ache in a Golf!

    Anne, how tall are you ? I'm 6'5" but find I can fit in
    most cars. I have always found the most comfortable journeys are in
    cars with sports type seats. I currently drive a Fiesta RS Turbo which
    has Recaro's which are excellent. Legroom isn't good but has never
    caused me a problem. If you are very tall you have to face facts that
    cars will never be made to fit you properly.
    
    Like Dave says, check out some cars that you like the look of.
    
    Royston

	Anne, I am 5'9" but have 36"inside leg.........I have lots of
	problems getting cars with enough leg room....especially if I wear
	any shoes except flats. I don't like having to drive with my legs
	apart to get the steering wheel between them.

	I currently drive a Montego, with the seat right back.

	Avoid any car with a steering wheel adjuster, they tend to have low
	steering wheels, which can only be adjusted lower, for a more "sporty"
	feel.....OK for those people who wear trousers all the time, and
	don't mid a leg either side of the wheel.

	My husbands rover 826 is fine, his previuos car, a senator, was
	terrible.

	I sometimes find with Fords, that the clutch seems a long way away,
	and need the seat closer to be able to depress it, the accellerator
	and break are then too close, and I bash my knee on the wheel, or
	get my foot caught under the pedals.

	Sorry the car doesn't sound exciting, but its got loads of legroom.

	Heather

I don't think height is the main issue here. It's how
you sit to feel comfortable when driving. Many people 
my size push my seat right back when driving. 

Like a previous note said, try a few out. It really is
the only way.


	Ian

    This may be no help at all, but there seems to be bags of room in a
    Renault 18.  You can sit in my old heap (my old Renault 18, shut up you
    lot) for a try-out if you want - it's usually round the back of
    Deathpark.
    
    Richard
    

	I think that comfort is only part of it.  You have to be able to operate the
	controls too (and in a timely fashion).  My wife has to have the seat in her
	Cavalier a little too close so she can depress the clutch.  I too have a 36" 
	inside leg but the Cavalier fits well as does an MX-5...

	Dave

Heather like you I have a 36" inside leg but I'm 6'. My main problem is that My 
legs are longer between the knee and ankle, so I'm usually ok with the clutch 
but my right knee touches the steering wheel. Sitting in this position for a 
couple of hours is not pleasant.

I test drove a 440 Volvo last night (Yuck a volvo) It was fine for leg room but 
there was no space beside the clutch to rest your foot, so when I was moving my 
foot to the floor, I kept bashing my knee on the steering wheel.

I'm off to test drive a golf at lunchtime, so I've worn my shoes with heels 
(like I really need heels being 6' already !!) Anyone know where the VW garage 
is in Reading????

Cheers

Anne

P.S. thanks for all the suggestions not sure about the renault 18 though ;-)

    I have the same problem... I test drove a lot of cars earlier this
    year... my main criteria is legroom.... the ones I found ok were:
    
    Astra
    Cavalier
    Nissan 100nx
    Colt
    
    The old Astra shape was by far the best.  A Cavalier with tiltable
    steering column is better than one without, as you can lift the wheel
    away from your knees...
    
    
    Xtine

    A critical look at the Renault shows that its probably no good for
    people with high knees, but should be brilliant if you've got
    enormously fat ankles....8*)
    
    Richard
    

    
    Has this situation moved on at all? I am 6' 5" and my cavalier is up
    for renewal soonish. Cavalier offers an OK amount of legroom, but the
    headroom isnt brilliant. Can anyone recommend......?
    
    Thanks
    Alan T.
     

    6'6", 36 to 37" inside leg, and a tall trunk as well....
    
    I picked the Omega to get the head room. 
    The GLS saloon with sunroof, and I was hitting the roof (but only just)
    The GLS estate (with sun roof) that I have at present while my car is
    in the garage is OK - with 3/4" clearance on the head.
    
    I actually picked for the base model saloon - which comes without a
    sunroof - and if you can afford the airconditioning you won't need a
    sunroof.
    
    In the Omega I find I drive with the seat right down, but one notch
    forward from fully back - the first car that I have had that is not
    fully back.
    
    Just driven 800 miles in 3 days - very comforatble cars.
    
    Cheers, Chris

    
    
    Alan, get a soft top, then you can have the top down and not have to
    worry 8*)
    On a more serious note it's great to hear from you and know you are
    still about! 
    I had an Omega on demo from Vauxhall very nice car with more headroom
    than most I've driven lately, phone Wadham kennings of reading on 01734
    394394 and speak to Peter Owen if he's got one he'll oblige if not then
    he'll put you on to Vauxhall fleet demo's who are also most obliging
    and have just about every model at their disposal, they let me have one
    for a week! Very nice car but a tad juicy and a tad expensive for me.
    
    Richard(young@wlo)
    

    
    Hi All,
    		I'm due for a car replacement in about 8 months and rather
    than just following on from what I have got now I thought I'd like to
    ask around a bit for some advice about what might suit me better. I
    currently have a Vectra TD/GLX which I've been quite happy with except
    that it has (ever so slightly) less room in it than the Cavalier and it
    suffers a lot of rolling and wind noise (even when rolling in Neutral)
    over 60-70 MPH (depends on the day and the surface). Good MPG (about 45
    by my guesstimate). So: Advice please? My requirements are (in
    preferential order):
    
    1) Must offer more internal space than Vectra (I am 6' 5").
    2) Good MPG - quite happy to get Diesel again.
    3) Quiet runner.
    4) Good sound system.
    5) Must not have the **stoopid** and dangerous combined washer/wiper
    system that Vauxhall always use.
    
    Regards
    Alan T.
    
    
    
    

    Well I'm 6'4" myself, so I know the problems well.
    
    I am very happy with my Omega CD.  I have heard mixed comments on the
    TD variants, so you may want to solicit input from those in the know. 
    As mentioned elsewhere in this conference, the ventilation system
    leaves a lot to be desired.  I'm not sure of your complaint with regard
    to the washer/wiper system, but I haven't killed anyone yet.  The head
    and legroom is excellent, and there's quite good legroom behind me even
    with the seat all the way back.  The boot space is OK, the spare wheel
    and rear drive detract from what could be a very useful bootspace. 
    Road and wind noise is low enough to carry on normal conversations. 
    Sound system is OK (I have single CD, but boot mounted is an option).  
    I can't say I've ever needed controls on the steering column.   
    
    My second choice would have been a Xantia, but you need to try the
    exact seat/roof combination before making any decision there.
    
    Fianlly a question.....
    
    Have you ever flown charter flights, and if so, how did you manage to
    get them to take out the seat in front??????
    
    Chris

    I'll second the Omega on leg-room.  Normally when I get into a strange
    (?) car I set the seat back as far as it goes and it is then in the
    right position - no fancy jiggling about.
    
    The Omega goes just too far back (but then I'm only 6'0") and with the
    hight control lowered even my ex-Volvo-drivers trilby would fit:-)
    
    The ventilation is *ra* - only the AC will keep the screen clear some
    days, even in winter.  
    
    The Estate has a lot of space in the back.
    
    Jc
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Thanks for the opinions so far: 
    
    Re: Chris's question about charter flights, yes I did two. No they
    didn't take the seats out! I suffered a lot on the first trip, but on
    the outward leg of the second journey I got a front seat and on the
    return the thing was so empty I could have sat anywhere! I did fly
    Virgin Atlantic to Boston and it took my legs three days to stop
    aching. Never again.
    
    The Wash/Wipe complaint. It's a cold morning AND/OR Alan has not filled
    his screen washer bottle in a while. Alan's screen gets a little fogged
    and Alan squirts the lever in the column, but no liquid is sprayed on
    the screen. However, the same lever also initiates three or four cycles
    of wiping, so the dirt on the screen is smeared across the screen most
    excellently leaving a film of greasy mess through which it is very
    difficult to see clearly. Hmm said a Vauxhall man I spoke to about this
    once (back in Cavalier days) "I can't really see why you'd want a
    seperate switch for the squirter." Perhaps he'd never driven a Vauxhall
    in the real world?
    
    AT
    

I thought all cars did that nowadays. Every one I have had has done that.

I have a Laguna Diesel and the room is fine for a 6 footer with the seat 
lowered.

Alan

    I drove my Omega in temperatures well below zero through the last
    winter, and the washers never froze once.  I did have some problems
    whilst the jet burst through the 6" of snow which had been deposited on
    the bonnet, but I don't think I can blame Vauxhall for that, and in any
    case, the wind blowing the loose snow off the top was sufficient to
    clear the screen.
    
    With the Cavalier I had between 90 and 93, I have not so fond memories
    of stopping every now and again to throw snow over the screen when the
    washers used to freeze on a regular basis (until I filled the washer
    bottle with almost neat fairy liquid!).
    
    Chris
    
    

    (rathole alert)
    
    I found that screenwash is much cheaper (per amount needed to prevent
    the bottle freezing) in the French hypermarkets than in Halfords.  Now
    I bring home a couple of gallons along with the booze before Christmas. 
    
    The continental variety seems to keep ice-free at much lower
    temperature than the UK variety.
    
    Jc
    

    
    >> I found that screenwash is much cheaper (per amount needed to prevent
    >> the bottle freezing) in the French hypermarkets than in Halfords. 
    >> Now I bring home a couple of gallons along with the booze before
    >> Christmas.
    
    I wonder if customes regard it as an import of an alcoholic beverage?
    
    Some of the screenwash seems to conatin a lot of methanol!
    
    Richard

    >>import of an alcoholic beverage?
    
    But it is for personal use guv!
    
    Jc
    

    But I hope not for personal consumption!
    
    C

    A Galaxy diesel model will fit the bill.  
    
    All-in-all, very comformable for the taller person
    	Loads of leg room - I am tall and slide the seat forward!
    	Loads of headroom
    	Adjustable length and height steering column
    	Adjustable height arm rest
    Economy
    	Beats Peugeot 405 diesel estate
    Room
    	can turn the same car from a 7 seater to a 3 seater
    	very adaptable, also useful and usable height for load
    Quietness
    	well...next to no wind noise
    	...but you will notice the engine
    Performance
    	sedate up o around 50-60
    	then it finds its legs
    	loves hill climbing
    
    -Ken