Conference terri::cars_uk

What about the Cavalier GSi 2000 or Vauxhall Calibra 8v or Rover 216 GTi
or Rover 416 GTi.

They all fill the previous criteria, However, based on my experiences driving
a Cavalier SRi, I don't think that the GSi 2000 or Calibra will be "fun" to
drive.

Based on my driving a Rover 214Si, however, I am optimistic. I'm hoping to
arrange a Test drive of a Rover x16 GTi soon, but will probably order the
GSi through lack of cash.

    
    The GSi may be fun to drive but the 8valve Calibra won't be fun if,
    as I've heard, it drives like the CD Cavalier. Nice car for my dad!
    
    Rovers just don't have the power. Any idea when the 220 Gti is coming
    out.
    
    Don't write off the Citroens on account of soft suspension though, the
    BX GTi is stiff.
    
    Mark

    Daimler is over 2 litre .... but fits rest of spec!
    
    Paul
    

Mark,

Perhaps you should add

'Should be less common than top ten popular cars'

Although Renault 5 GT Turbo sightings have increased in my area, I
still think they have a certain unique value/appeal.



Greg

    Thought about a Mazda 323F GT ??
    
    1840 c.c. - 16v
    
    All the leecy goodies that you might want.
    
    Four doors with hatchback.
    
    Drawbacks  ? - 4/5 month delivery
    
    Rich
    

	Astre GTE 16v - Not my personal choice, but can seat four with 
                        *reasonable* comfort. Certainly within your budget.

	Alfa 75 Twin spark - At the top end of your budget, but has had a lot
                             of good reviews. 


	As a matter of interest CAR magazine had a short but interesting test
	comparing the revamped Mini Cooper against most of the current "Hot
	Hatch" brigade. Including the Renault 5 GTT, Pug 205GTI, Golf GTI,
	Astra GTE, Mazda 323GTF, Fiat Uno Turbo etc.

	If anyone's interested in what the result was, and doesn't want to
	buy the magazine I'll send you a photocopy of the result.

	Gordon

    
    Oh yes, one more condition. Must NOT be Japanese.
    
    Mark

    
    V8 Land Rover? 
    
    :-)
    
    
    
             

re.7 well said  :-)
re.8 i was going to suggest that!


...art

    
    V8 Land rover - Under 15k?
    		    It's over 2 litres!
    		    Acceleration like a 5 GTT? :^)
    		    Cheap to insure I suppose, but not to run.
    
    Nice try, but why would anyone want to drive a truck?
    
    Mark
    

    re .7 Out of interest ... _why_ not Japanese ... it's obviously _not_
    a case of "Buy British" or anything like that?
    
    I've so far had 2 French, 7 British, 3 Japanese, and 2 German cars,
    plus multitudinous Japanese motorbikes, and the Japanese cars have
    been by _far_ the most reliable, and out of the hardtops, about the 
    most fun too ... I wouldn't hesitate to get another one ... in fact
    have just got another one and wife has yet another coming in 10 days
    time ...
    
    Just curious ...
    
    Peter

    
    Pug 309 Gti, quick, handles well, fun, easy to drive...
    
    Alfa Twin Spark, Fun, quick, quite well appointed, has character.
    		     Spent 24 hours in one, would do it again.
    
    Rover Gti. Quicker on the straight than the Twin Spark, probably
    		better finished.
    
    Golf Gti. Still a winner (if a bit easy to drive / sterile).
    
    Bill.

    Mark,
    
    have you thought about getting a second-hand Golf Gti, and letting
    Turbo Technics or similiar do a conversion ??  You can then have
    a wolf-in-sheeps-clothing car. Also reasonable resale/reliability.
    Dont know if they'll run lead free juice tho'.
    
    Rich.

or go for the 180bhp BBR chip & head mods on the 5

    
    Why not Japanese?
    
    Well it's partly good old bigotry! :^) A lot of people in here make
    comments about French cars being badly made, but on the whole I think
    the interiors of Japanese cars are revolting (the 200SX being the only
    exception which springs to mind). Secondly I still feel more than a 
    bit annoyed that the Japanese motor industry muscled into Britain and
    Europe (and probably America and Africa) by dumping cars at vastly
    subsidised prices.
    
    Ok, so that's a political problem, but my slightly wierd political view
    says why buy from a country who will flood the oppositions markets
    while preventing any serious competition at home?
    
    So, that's why I wouldn't buy Japanese. Certainly the New MR2, the
    200SX, the Mazda RX7 and MX-5 and the Supra are all very nice looking
    cars (and so's the Honda CRX), but none of them have the space I need
    and there's nothing else in terms of Japanese cars which I think offer
    anything over European equivalents.
    
    Mark

    
    
    
    ratholing even further down that line, Mark.....
    
    Anybody see the article in the paper yesterday about a woman who
    refused the "Star Prize" in on of thos orgiastic American TV game shows
    (sort of like The Price is Right, but within its innate decorum and
    modesty) ?
    
    Why ?   Becasue, while the audience screamed and yelled and did
    whatever it is gameshow audiences do, the curtain pulled back to reveal
    a brand-new....... Honda.
    
    the lucky contestant, being a staunch Union memeber, was obliged to
    refuse it, since it wasn't built by US union labour.  Collapse of whole
    game show (it was never transmitted...).
    
    Seemingly, she's since been _given_ a couple of brand new US cars, by a
    grateful Automotive Workers' Union, and had a letter of thanks from Lee
    Iacoca (sp).
    
    Another example, in the US, Suzuki's aren't called Suzuki, "it sounds
    too foreign, they'd never sell 'em."
    
    ... and you think the politics is strong _here- !
    
    
    Ian

    re .15
    
    I would describe myself as being pro European where possible.  
    
    I've given up being just Pro British, we don't make too much 
    nowadays.  I would rather that European industry did well rather than 
    the Japanese for the reasons stated in .15.  A successful Europe, I'm
    sure, would be a better place to live in than a collection of countries
    that the Japanese use for assembly plants.
    
    Also Japanese cars tend have a short life cycle, so there's a good chance
    your new car could be out of date sooner than you would like. They do
    the same with Hi-Fi, how many people have bought new CD players that
    don't sound too different to their old ones?  Mind you, this is great
    marketing.
     
    I have to admit there are times when choice is restricted to Japanese,
    the coupe market sector is going that way. 

    
    The coupe market? No the Europeans are coming!
    
    Mark (PS Sometimes though I know when to admit defeat and a Sanyo
    camcorder has just been ordered! :^( )

    
    Re .15
    
    I don't think its fair to say that the Japanese entered the UK market
    by dumping subsidised cars on us (much as I'd like too). Car prices in 
    Japan are approximately half or maybe even slightly less than that of 
    those in the UK. 
    
    However, they do have one of the most protected car markets in the
    world and for that reason alone we should have banned all imports of
    their vehicles. Continuing with this 10% import quota farce just helps
    to maintain their secondhand values. 
    
    I do agree with the general sentiments of .15 and I certainly won't be
    buying a Japanese car. Buying a Japanese car in Europe, with one or 
    two exceptions just rightsizes the jobs of European car workers or 
    those from related industries.
    
    Richard.
    

Perhaps we should take the attitude of the patriotic GM dealer in the US who
had just has his wrist slapped. His advertising ran along the lines of:

"We build cars for our size people; they build cars for theirs". Is this is
what is meant by "rightsizing" (see -.1)?!

Personally, I can't forgive the Japanese their role in the last World War -
which is why I prefer to buy Volkswagens.


:-)

Steve

The Rover 216 GTi (not out til mid Sept (Autocar & Motor)) has a Honda engine
so that's out. I'm not sure about the Rover 200 vitesse (out Spring '91). They
are also bringing out a 200 cabrio.

What about a (boring) XR2i or Fiesta RSTurbo, or one of the new Escorts - I 
know you'll have to put up with the old Ford boy-racer image, but you did
say speed is what you after. btw there's an Escort Cosworth out next year.


Ian

    
    I looked at a Ford Escort Cabriolet last weekend. Ford still appear to
    through their cars together though and I can't see them improving 
    radically in the next 5 or 6 months. I doubt I'll be buying a Ford and
    certainly not one of the grossly overpriced go-faster (but not than a
    Renault 5) Fiasco derivatives!
    
    Mark

    Some of you people out there are weird!!
    
    The only sane philosophy in my book is buy what is best. If the UK has
    been beaten to the punch in terms of car quality, then the Japanese
    produce better cars.
    
    Yes there will be the initial rush to buy cheaper but things soon sort
    themselves out (if the emphasis is put on the customer satisfaction not 
    on the old whinge about the worker staying employed).
    
    regards George Frost

    
    But are the Japs BEST? Personally I don't think so. Trim quality (as
    I stated) is poor and the rapid turnover of models leads to poor resale
    values.
    
    In MOST cases the Japanese are only equal and not the best.
    
    Mark

    Going back to the base note...........
    
    Can I throw in another vote for the Alfa 75TS? As long as you are no
    taller than me (5'9") its a wonderful car. I've now done 6000 trouble
    free miles with a glorious engine note.
    
    Paul

	But surely if Japanese cars _are_ better, but we continue to
	buy British for the sake of it, then British car manufacturers
	will not see any reason to improve their products...

	I personally think the UK produces the best 4wd vehicles in the
	world. I looked at the Japanese opposition when buying my current
	(3rd) Range Rover and thought it was crap. The opposition, that is.

	I'm not so sure I'd have bought British if I wanted a performance
	car though...

	Jonathan.

	Why not build one from a kit?

	or buy a kit already made with non-Japanese bits

	Heather

    The reason I've bought the Japanese cars that I have is that there has
    been very little comparable on offer from any other supplier ... as .-n
    said ... go for the best that is available be it Japanese, German or
    British ... It so happens that 2 of the Japanese ones I've had fit with
    Mark's idea of the "good" ones, the RX Turbo Cabrio and the MX5, there just
    isn't anything else around like them. The other 2 are more like Mark is
    looking for, both being Mazda 323 4x4 Turbo's ... room for 4, goes like
    nobody's business, handles exceptionally well, and can easily cope with
    vast increases in power ... the 200bhp chip modification version is
    still one heck of a motor car, but let down a bit by the interior.
    
    I would rather buy from a more local manufacturer if one existed
    supplying my needs/desires ... but at the moment, sadly, there isn't
    one that fits the bill .....
    
    Peter 

	I suggest that you keep it. Surely there's something that
	you'd like to use the near 10 grand you'll save for.

	-John

Alfa 75 is ugly. You pay a price for the engine note.

If you want a good handling/performance package, buy French. I don't think
anyone makes better mass-produced chassis' than Peugeot (through their whole
range).

If you want a strong perception of quality, buy German.

If you want a solid, average, (good), car buy Ford or Japanese.

    Mister Eaton in the last seems to me to have almost got it. His views
    do reflect those of an awful lot of people.
    
    re .23 You really are kidding yourself to think that you will be
    keeping your fellow countrymen in work by producing inferior products.
    Continue your tunnel vision buying habits and you will actively lay off 
    your fellow countrymen.
    
    .23 Wrong in that Japanese INDUSTRY has stronger import controls
    than almost ANYONE  else, not just the EEC, and not just the motor
    industry.
    
    Now, I don't advocate their trade policies (those who practice
    hysterical buying do), what I am saying is -  actively force the
    British Motor industry to produce  better goods and you will win,
    otherwise you are on the slippery slope. (greased by Britain).
    
    There are enough examples around to make my point.
    
    	regards  George Frost 
    
     

    Only joking !
    
    Rich (ex owner)

    
    All the road tests by testers that I trust suggest the Calibra is
    absolutely NOT a fun car. Cavalier in drag seems to be the consensus.

    
    I've read bad reports too, but I've lost my belief in ANY road tests.
    
    If I'd believed the bad press about the Renault 5GT Turbo I never would
    have bought one, now the same magazines who damned it are raving about
    it. Fickle is a word that springs to mind!
    
    I read one (very recent report) which talked of a new GM steering rack
    which has improved the steering (reduced Torque-steer to virtually
    nill - possibly Lotus designed?) of the Calibra and which is likely to
    be fitted to GSI Cavaliers as well in the near future.
    
    As I like the look, build quality and space of the Calibra I shall give
    it a road test sometime.
    
    Mark

	How about the Escort RS2000?

	-John

    
    I would definitely rather have a Calibra for that kind of money!
    
    Does anyone else think that fast(ish) Fords are badly overpriced?
    
    Mark
    
    PS I assume you mean the NEW RS2000, I don't really want a 10 year
    old car! :^)
    

    You could wait until 1992 for the new Escort RS Cosworth.  The pictures
    in last weeks AuotoSport are stunning.
    
    
    Bruce

In my quest to replace my "fun car", I've been looking at the Rover 416 GTi
(or 216 GTi), as an alternative to the "less fun", and ubiquitous Cavalier.

I had a test drive from David Ruskin Garages near Winnersh. The car was
beautifully finished, and very comfortable inside. My head grazed the roof
a little, but I didn't have the chance to find out if the seat could be
lowered. It also has all the goodies: front & rear electric windows (naff
switches), electric sunroof, very nice stereo (same as in GSi 2000 Cavalier).

The engine felt very responsive, and could have probably revved quite high
(being a Honda), but it hadn't been run in. Obviously, it wasn't as fast
as the R5GTT, but it felt pretty good all the same. Unlike the Cavalier SRi
or Peugeot 309 GTi, the engine was very quiet indeed. It is one of the
quietest cars I've driven on the Motorway.

The power steering was superb, suitably light when parking, but very positive
on a straight line, with good "feel" around corners. On Motorways, I thought
of the Cavalier SRI's steering, as being like trying to grab the soap in the
bath. I didn't get enough of an opportunity to really assess what it was like
going around corners, but it felt pretty good.

All in all, a very good car, but I don't think I shall be able to afford it
for this lease. It is difficult to justify the 1200 or so lease cost.

Mark.

    
    Anyone KNOW anything about the MG Maestro Turbo? It's not the world's
    prettiest car, but the figures make it sound pretty effective as a 
    very fast 5 door saloon, and the standard MG Maestro has pretty good
    handling.
    
    Anyone had any first (or even second) hand experience of one of these
    rare beasts?
    
    Mark

I thought Rover were dropping the MG badge from Maestros, Montegos and 
Metros so they can use it on a new MGD sports car. I don't know what
the equivalent of the MG turbo will be.



Ian

    Grant, 
    
    I agree that 22k is STEEP, but the car looks gorgeous... Especially in
    the CCC article!
    
    Take a look..
    
    ..Craig

    Mark,
    
    I seem to remember the reviews saying that basically there was far
    too much power, which made the car an absolute nightmare to drive.
    Hence you hardly see any one the roads. (Perhaps the ditches ?!)
    
    Rich.

re: .45

    Not the Maestro, but I did know some people who had the Montego version.

    The only negative comments related to build quality ... lots of squeaks 
    and rattles.

    A very fast car ...

    I seem to recall that early versions had lethal torque steer, but this
    was fixed for later ones. Get one de-badged, or even better re-badged
    as a 1.3 City - what a Q-car!
    
    Steve

    re. the homologised Cosworth Escort - is this going to be the new
    Ford Rally car ?
    
    ...and on that train of thought, how much did the RS200's cost when
    they were sold off after the Rally regs' were down-rated.
    
    Saw one last year on the way back from Le Mans, but unfortunately
    only in a traffic jam so wasn't able to see how it went.
    
    AmS
    

    
    They were selling them at 45,000 or so 2 or 3 years ago.  That was 
    the time when you could pick up a 6R4 for 15K or so.
    
    A couple of years ago one went past me just outside Camberley,
    recognised it in the rear view mirror, and then it went past.
    
    Not as fast as you may think in STANDARD trim.
    
    Nigel                                   

	Just for clarification the Escort RS2000 I mentioned earlier
	on refers to the 2 litre sporty version of the new Ford Escort
	which is to be announced next month (but everybody seems to
	have heard of already). There is also going to be a 4WD Cosworth
	version too but  doesn't that come later.

	-John

    re .55
    
    Yes, according to CCC the Escort Cosworth (compleate with 7 gears) is
    planned to enter the 1992 World Rally Championship..
    
    Re: RS 200s  They were going for somewhere in the region of 53k and I
    think only 200 were made for the road...as for performance, they are
    FAST!!
    
    
    ..Craig  (started saving already 8-))

    re-1
    
    The Escort RS Cosworth (road going version) is said to have 250bhp!!!
    
    Grant

How do I replace such a fun car ?

Simple, I get another one the same!

I took the plunge, and, given my bosses permission, I should be able to take
on the lease for a Red R5GTT, with Electric Slide/Tilt Sunroof, towbar and
lights-on buzzer. The car has 20 months of lease left, so maybe I'll buy
it then, as a collectors item!!

Performance seems smoother than my car (known hereinafter as "George"), but
handling seems a little nervous, and there is a touch of torque steer. I'd
never really noticed it before (except in GTE 16V's).

Strangely enough, George had this problem before he (isn't anthropomorphism
great!) was smashed up (see 256.xxx for account). Strangely Wheelers did a
superb job on the suspension, because George is absolutely rock solid, and
possibly the best handling car ever!!!!! (Isn't exageration great!)

Anyway, I'm very pleased to get another one (gotta think of another name),
and even more pleased that the lease cost on this one is even cheaper than
George's, even with all the extras!!

Mark.

    
    Perhaps this is the inevitable conclusion all R5 GTT owners come to in
    the end. There can't be many modern cars which invoke such emotion in
    their owners. In 20 years time people will be queuing up to buy a good
    Renault 5 GTT just as they do now for Mini Coopers, et al.
    
    Mark

    
    Derek,
    
    you seemed to have missed part of the title, it says...
    
    'How do you replace such a fun CAR'!!!!.
    				   ---
    
    Buying a four wheeled motorbike with no luggage space is not the
    answer!
    
    Mark

    So?
    
    Ah, I see, a 23 doesn't?
    
    Mark

>>Acceleration:
>>
>> 0-62.5 mph in 8.3 seconds


doesn't the normal 8v GTi have a similar figure?

it must surely be quicker than that if its supercharged

i thought supercharged engines had zero (boost) lag!?



...art

    
    Isn't it also available only in LHD?
    
    Mark

    re .67
    
    Sounds like the figures i've heard in mag's over here.  It ways a bit
    more than the 8v....
    
    Nigel

As said before, these are figures taken straight from the magazine - I may have
translated parts inaccurately? Yes, its only available in LHD however that'll
probably change 'when it reaches the UK?

    
    
    The new G60 (91 model year) is supposed to be available in RHD
    .....assuming Auto-Express is to be believed.

    Richard.    

    
>>    The new G60 (91 model year) is supposed to be available in RHD
>>    .....assuming Auto-Express is to be believed.
>>
>>    Richard.    


i've seen a (yellow) rhd G60, it was a 'G' reg; saw it in the carpark at the
Sandown kit-car show.

also seen piccies of H reg ones in magazines


...art

    
    Well, here I am only 5 weeks away from finishing the payments on the
    Renault and still undecided on what to replace it with (if anything).
    
    My heart cries Calibra everytime I see one, but my head says, no, you
    can't afford it. I've also started considering an Alfa 164 TS after 
    sitting in one prior to a test drive in a 33 16v (which is not very
    high up my list after a test drive). I would consider getting a low
    mileage used version of either car, but to be honest neither seems to
    get much cheaper until the mileage gets near to what the Renault has
    done (c. 35k), so it seems likely that I'll be looking at another 
    brand new car.
    
    Anymore suggestions for cars fitting the original criteria would be
    gratefully received.
    
    Mark

    How about a second-hand Alpine GTA ?
    
    Not sure how much it is a 4-seater, as opposed to a 2+2,
    but it seems like a pretty good buy.
    
    It's even [badged as] a Renault, so no change there
    
    J.R.

    
    I've thought of it.
    
    It's bigger in the back than a 944 or a Nissan 200SX, but wifely
    pressure deems it too small to be called a real 4 seater and I
    suppose one ridiculously impractical car (well, ok it's not a 7,
    but...) is enough for anyone.
    
    Mark
    
    PS a modified car is out of the question as far as I'm concerned.

    
    Further to this subject, does anyone know if there is a Vauxhall
    dealer within lunchtime driving range of Dec Park?
    
    Mark

    
    Is that garage behind the station Vauxhall? - Great Western Motors, or
    something like that. 

it is,  but is anywhere in Reading within lunchtime driving distance of 
deathpark? :-(

Jc

    
    re .78 - YES - if I lend you my motorbike! :-)

    
    Depends WHEN you take your lunch break! :^)
    
    Mark

    Spratleys in Mortimore have been helpful to me recently, and it's
    probabvly quicker to drive out across the motorway rather than trying
    to drive into town.

    Their number is: rdg 332338.

    Jay

    Great Westerm Motors are closing down this weekend, to be replaced by
    WADHAM KENNING, on Portman Road.  It sounds like all the staff are
    moving to the new place.
    
    
    John

    
    Well,
    
    It now looks like a toss-up between a Rover 216 GTi Twin Cam, an 8
    valve Calibra or a 16 valve Calibra.
    
    Despite being the cheapest, the best trade in offer came from the 
    Rover dealer (David Ruskin). The car was very enjoyable to drive, with
    similar handling to the Renault, but most certainly not the same
    performance (although it wasn't slow and mid range seemed quite good).
    
    Like Mark Jeffrey, I didn't exploit the engine's ability to rev to 
    7200 rpm, but I personally felt the engine was a bit coarse. Having
    said that I believe that the turbo on the Renault spoils me in terms
    of engine quietness, as everything else I've driven (except the
    Integrale) sounds rough and noisy.
    
    Vauxhall dealers don't seem too keen to offer a particularly good deal
    on Calibras (although one dealer was prepared to offer 5% discount on
    top of the trade in price), saying (probably rightly) that they can
    sell as many as they can get without offering anything special. The 16
    valve Calibra is what I really WANT, but it's a lot of money and I'm
    trying to convince myself that I could live with the 8 valve's inferior
    performance (hopefully I'll get to try one soon!). 
    
    Other cars which have fallen by the wayside include the Alfa 33 (poorly
    built and sounded like a Beetle on its last legs!), a number of Pugs 
    (I still don't like them!), and the Citroen BX GTi (Wife can't stand
    'em and depreciation looks bad.)
    
    Still, this time next week I could have a totally different car at the
    top of my list!
    
    Stay tuned.
    
    Mark

go for the Calibra, it's appearance must far out weigh the lack of performance



...art

    
    
    Re .84
    
    Could be anytime now. The car is paid for on 4th Feb and I'll be
    thinking of picking up a new one after that.
    
    Re Toyota's.
    
    Early in this note there is a big discussion on the merits and
    otherwise of Japanese cars, but suffice to say that I haven't, and will
    not be doing so, considered Toyotas.
    
    Mark 

>go for the Calibra, it's appearance must far out weigh the lack of performance

Yeah I suppose it does look slightly better than the Cavalier!


Ian

Mark

If the performance is OK, the price is cheaper. buy the Rover and keep the Renault!!


I really like the look of the Rover 216 GTi

Greg

    As there are now two variants, can you please distinguish, do you mean
    the 216 GTi 3 door or 5 door?. 
    
    I really like the look of the 3 door, but it would be impracticle
    with my family!.
    
    P.S. I notice they are now hyping the 'twin cam'. all rover 200/400
    GTi's have always been a 1600cc, 16 valve, twin cam, programmed fuel
    injection engine. (the GSi's are 1600cc, 16 valve, single cam, programmed
    fuel injection engine)
    
    Richard

    
    The one I like is the 3 door model. My wife wants me to buy a 4 door
    216 in green, but I don't think I'm ready to be sensible about cars 
    yet! :^)
    
    Mark

Yeah,

I'd wait a bit, and go for the promised 220 GTi, or the Renault 19 16V when
either comes out.

Mark.

    
    R19 16v already in deepest Acton. Due for announcement any day (was
    expected in January -- few days still left)

    
    Mandy doesn't like the R19 and the 220 Gti will be as dear as a
    Calibra, and then there won't be any contest!
    
    Also, Rover dealers say they haven't had any confirmation of a 220
    GTi, the only new 200 they are expecting is the cabriolet.
    
    Mark
    
    

    Being a 216 GTi driver, I would say.... Get one !
    
    The fact that you can really REV the car, without thrashing it is the 
    hardest thing to get used to.
    
    I am not a family man, (ie no kids), but I went for the 5 door because
    of the nicer interior finish. ie wood dash surround. After all inside
    the car is where you spend most of the time. 
    
    I was also lent a Renault 5GT Turbo for a couple of days. Yes it is
    quicker,but IMO the Rover is a much,much nicer car to drive, especially
    at speed. (Its also a lot more comfortable than the Renault.)
    
    The Calibre is prettier, but the it is really a Cavalier underneath,
    and do you want to spend the extra spons on a Cavalier ! ;-)
    
    
    Points to watch with the Rover: (on mine anyway)
    
    1. Sunroof leaks if left standing in the rain.
    2. Bootwell fills up with water, with no apparent entry point.
    3. Petrol guage is VERY inaccurate. ie Fill up, do 28 miles petrol
       guage reads 1/2 full.
    
    My car is in the garage, hopefully having the above problems plus a
    late 6k service as I write this note.
    
    Other than the above points I really like the Rover.
    
    Matt.
    
    
    
    

    
    Well, thanks to Chris Jordan I've now had a chance to drive an 8 
    valve Calibra.
    
    Despite my best intentions I had a preconceived idea of what the car
    would be like (created mainly from driving my father's Cavalier CD).
    I can safely say that I was wrong. The 8 valve is noticeably slower
    than the 16 valve, but it is anything but slow. It requires a bit
    more working of the gears, but brisk acceleration is easily achieved
    and the car will accelerate from motorway cruising speeds for easy
    overtaking on the motorway. The car is a lot quieter than it's 16 valve
    brother, but still has the same quality feel.
    
    Those of you who say the Calibra is just a Cavalier underneath may well
    be right, but if it's true then there isn't a lot wrong with the
    Cavalier. The quality of the car is as good, if not better than the
    Rover and, superior to a number of 5 series BMWs I looked at recently.
    A car with this kind of build quality doesn't have to make any
    apologies for its ancestry. 
    
    I'm still undecided, but the 8 valve Calibra has risen a lot further in
    my estimation since driving it, and with 9000 mile service intervals,
    cheaper parts at servicing time and fairly cheap insurance it looks a 
    bargain, especially when you consider what ABS, electric windows and
    an alarm add to the price of the Rover.
    
    Mark

Don't forget that the Rover 216 has a HONDA engine. That's Japanese
y'know!!!

Incidentally the Rover 200/400 1.4 engines are twin-cam too!



Ian

>>            <<< Note 1195.96 by OVAL::SAXBYM "Let's get personal" >>>
>>    bargain, especially when you consider what ABS, electric windows and
>>    an alarm add to the price of the Rover.
    
    ABS and alarm yes, but surely the 216GTi has electric windows?. (the 4
    door has them front AND rear)
    
    Richard
    

    
    Re. The last two.
    
    The Honda engine is only a component (albeit a major one) in a car.
    
    I wouldn't disregard a car because it had Japanese windscreen wipers!
    :^)
    
    The 2 door GTi doesn't have electric windows. Don't ask me why,
    presumably it's just a ploy to get a lower showroom price.
    
    Mark

    
    Re .100
    
    Can't be that, it's a 275 pound extra!
    
    Mark

    perhaps the 275 dosh is for twin motors in each door :-)
    
    Richard

    It depends on which 216 GTi you're looking at - the twin cam one has
    got electric windows.

    
    No it hasn't!
    
    Mark

    They did have yesterday!  I didn't think the car market moved that
    quickly  :-)

>>    <<< Note 1195.103 by NEWOA::MACMILLAN "So many roads, so little time" >>>

>>    It depends on which 216 GTi you're looking at - the twin cam one has
>>    got electric windows.

    This is where the confusion starts :-) The 4/5 door GTi has always had
    the twin cam engine, (only on the 4/5 door models they didn't use to
    badge it). They've also always had electric windows.
    
    The single cam 16v engine is used in the GSi. So has the 3 door got two
    different engine spec'd GTI's ?? or is it that the 3 door has two
    different models, a something and a GTi?. 
    
    Who's got the damn brochure?.
    
    Richard

    Re a few back (AVN packed up on me...)
    
    Wots wrong with Honda engines ? Don't they make good car engines ?
    
    Having had a whole series of Hondas, I would have thought that the
    engine would be the strong point.
    
    There again, I wouldn't buy a Japanese car...  ;-)
    
    Rob
    

    
    The  Rover 216 Gti Twin Cam 3 door does not come with electric windows
    as standard. If you want them they are a 275 pound option.
    
    Mark

    
    How cheap can they get?

    

    If you get the 5 door GTi (Twin Camm) you get electric windows
    as standard.
    
    Matt.
    

    Re 5 door Rover GTi.
    
    I don't like the 5 door, well it's ok, but the 3 door looks a hell of 
    a lot better, IMHO.
    
    Re The Renault 19 16 valve. Autocar liked the car, but the performance
    figures are very disappointing for this type of car and nowhere near
    the 130 mph+/0-60 in 7.7 seconds figures attained by Car magazine with 
    a LHD model. Makes you think, don't it?
    
    Mark
    
    Mark

why not get a used sapphire Cosworth?


...art

    Did he consider changing the girlfriend/fiancee instead ? :-)
    
    mcp

    
    Re .115
    
    A much better suggestion! :^)
    
    I don't fancy a Cossy. Favourite at the moment is an 8 valve Calibra.
    
    Mark

    
    The search finally came to an end on Saturday morning.
    
    I took delivery of H880 JPR and waved my little Renault 5 GT Turbo
    goodbye.
    
    H880 is a 16 valve Vauxhall Calibra and so far I'm very pleased with
    my choice. The quality is excellent and the car feels much more solid
    than the Renault (Considering it's probably getting on for twice as 
    heavy you'd expect that!). Performance is not the same as the Renault,
    but it's the way it delivers its performance rather than the figures
    that is noticeable. The car reaches 60 or 70 with contemptuous ease and
    it's all too easy to find oneself doing a 100 mph on the motorway. All
    the fittings work well and the car looks absolutely stunning (IMHO),
    although white really isn't the best colour for this weather!
    Fuel consumption seems good too and despite its huge tank, it's pretty
    cheap to fill up due to the wide differential in leaded and unleaded
    prices.
    
    Bad points? Well it's actually quite a narrow car so passengers have to 
    be careful where they put their elbows and why Vauxhall put the window
    switches in the back of the car is beyond me!
    
    So in the end how does the car measure up to my original criteria?
    
    4 seats - Easily the biggest car internally in its class.
    
    Performance like the Renault - Overall about the same, but without the
    same furious urgency, which can be a shame, but can also make things a
    lot more relaxing.
    
    Less than 15,000 pounds - Failed, but being a 4 month old demonstrator
    rather than a new car, not by much.
    
    Unleaded fuel - Takes nothing else.
    
    A pretty good match I'd say. Now all I need is an Autobahn to see if
    my Calibra will go off the 140 mph speedo! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    I test drove the Celica when the Toyotas were at DEC Park for the day
    and I thought it one of the nastiest cars I'd ever driven. :^(
    
    Mark
    
    

Hi,

I found this driving the Astra GTE 16V. It must be "normal", but the way the
EMS tried to rev the car really annoyed me. Trying to inch forward in a
traffic jam was really tiring, with the car revving up to stop the engine
stalling.

Mark.

    
    I've not noticed the revving up yet, but I'll keep an eye/ear out for
    it.
    
    Mark

	I has a meastro, and now a Montego, both had EMS, neither of them
	had the problem you refer too.

	Is it only specific makes?

	Heather

>>          <<< Note 1195.122 by SUBURB::THOMASH "The Devon Dumpling" >>>

>>	I has a meastro, and now a Montego, both had EMS, neither of them
>>	had the problem you refer too.

>>	Is it only specific makes?
    
    Different manufacturers use diffent makes of 'EMS' which have different
    way's of doing things. Sort of like my VAX in work runs programs, so
    does my ATARI at home, but even though they do the same function (Word
    processor, spreadsheet, calandar management...) you can bet your bottom
    dollar they don't do it the same way.
    
    The previous comments apply to Vauxhall's, you're referring to
    Rover/ARG/BL/BLMC/BMC/austin/Morris/.................(probably honda in
    there somewhere too :-) )
    
    Richard

I was going to replace my GT turbo with a new Metro 16v GTi (I know, - but the 
deal was good :-)

until...

I went to pick up the car on Friday afternoon, the paintwork on the drip 
rail/seam on the roof of the car was of the same texture as orange peel at best
and fully blistered and rusty at worst - and all this on a brand new car!
There was also a four inch long scratch on the tailgate - down to bare metal.
The salesman offered to rectify the two problems but the sales manager refused
to acknowledge the 'orange peel' paintjob problem and refused to budge on the
issue. He tried to pressure me into driving the car away and having the scratch
repaired when they could book it into the paint shop. Unfortunately for him I
knew a little about consumer law and rejected the car - and was refunded my
deposit.

Frankly I was amazed at the difference in their attitude from early negotiations
(where it was all smiles and 'how much we respect our customers') to 'we've 
got your money so get lost'!

anyhows I should (fingers crossed) be picking up an MR2 T-bar this weekend,
more in the MR2 topic...


...art

Had an HP check done on the car I was going to buy...

heard that the MR2 was an insurance write off this July! Must have had a 
complete new shell put on it.

Guess I'll have to shop around some more before I can find another
affordable 'fun' car...


ho hum,


...art

    re -1
    
    How do you find out info about a car, eg has it been a write off etc??
    
    ..Craig

>>    How do you find out info about a car, eg has it been a write off etc??

the DVLA tell you - but only if you're registered (read: pay hugh fee) with them
and only then if you're a dealer or credit company
or you can call your local citezens advice bureau as they would have been 
provided (by insurance cos.) with a list of insurance write-offs in their area

I'm pretty sure that motoring orgs. such as the Guild of experienced drivers (!)
and the AA can provide you with info such as outstanding loans/major accidents
that a car may have had (I think the AA charge 12quid if you're a member)


I got the info through a friend in the trade.


...art

    re -.1
    
    Your facing the same decision I have to make, and I also have a 5 GT
    Turbo to replace !!!. In fact your selection criteria is pretty close
    to mine, (except I don't want 5 doors).
    
    >Renault 19 16V 4 door Chamade.
    
    I've read these suffer a lack of 'mid range grunt', (although the new
    facelifted model has revised gear ratios to improve this). If this is
    still true I don't think I could live with after the 5.
    
    >Renault Clio 16V
    
    Should be close to the 5 in terms of performance.
    
    How about the Citroen 16V, (I think it's only a 3 door). I'm seriously
    considering one of these and am currently waiting for a test drive. 
    
    Or a Rover 220/216 GTI, (216 is a 5 door).
    
    The 220 (maybe the 216 as well) recently had a minor face lift which
    included suspension mods as well, (lowering the car and making it
    handle better).
    
    With Rover's price cuts and the eradication of car tax these should
    drop well within your lease cost.
    
    Dave.
    

    Hi  Mark,
    
    Check out the Rover 216 GTI 5 door.
    
    I got a 19 16v saloon as a replacement for my Turbo, the inside is a
    lot nicer since the revamp, the seats aren't as garish.
    
    Also although performance isn't as exciting as the 5, but if you keep the
    revs over 4000 rpm it still brings a smile to my face, like the 5 did.
    
    
    cheers,
    
    
    Greg

    
    Yep,
    
    The Rovers look good value as does the Renault 19 Chamade (Probably the
    one I'd pick if I was changing the Calibra just now).
    
    Re Lack of mid range grunt on the 19. This is probably something ANYONE
    comparing with a turbo engine would say of any normally aspirated 16
    valve engine. Turbos have LOTS of grunt in the 2k - 5k range, but 16
    valve engines are particularly lacking there. Relatively, of course.
    
    How about a Volvo 440 Turbo?
    
    Mark

Ah... decisions, decisions. Must be terrible...

Dougie

I thought about the Rovers. The impression I've got is that the handling is
slightly suspect. I'm still open to suggestions though!

A new car that has caught my attention is the 405. The 405 GRi is a good price
on the scheme. The new model has a really nice interior, and when I hired a
405 SRi, the car was great to drive.

Mark.

    what do you mean suspect??
    
    I will gladly demonstrate it is not suspect..

I Got this from a colleague who had a 214 for a month, before getting
his Corrado G60. He *HATED* the Rover. I think there is more than
a touch of German snobbery (something I don't understand).

Anyway, I've heard bad things about the 220 GTi, handling wise.

I'm happy to be proven wrong!

Mark.

    
    214 v Corrado G60 - Hardly a fair comparison really...
    
    I thought the 216 GTi seemed fine when I drove one (for a short spell,
    only a test drive, but I don't pussy foot around :^)) and I've never
    heard people say the GTis were anything but good.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Get a Calibra, a proper challenge to drive quick! :^)

    re 
    >>I Got this from a colleague who had a 214 for a month, before getting
    
    Probably many renault 5 campus drivers would complain that the handling
    of the 5 turbo had to be suspect as theirs was?
    
    Richard

The Vauxhall alarm is a remote alarm

I personally don't think the VSL alarm is better than the Vauxhall System 3 
offering...

    PS Last night I discovered why garages supply plastic gloves for
       diesel users :-)

I saw an old boy fill up his 5 series BMW with unleaded at
Tesco's and then throw the box of plastic gloves into the back
of his car. Tesco's no longer have plastic gloves at their
pumps.

I'd imagine someone who can afford a 525i can afford to buy 
plastic gloves!



	Ian

re.141:

What did he say when you challenged him? No doubt the police have traced him 
from his number plate and will take appropriate action.

Dave.

	So far I've only found one petrol station that I can fill
	my  MG BGT up at without spilling petrol somewhere.  The 
	problem is that you can't get the pump in at anywhere
	near the correct angle (with unbolting the bumper) plus
	the petrol is at quite a high pressure with some of them.
	

	Why is diesel so dirty?

	Dave

RE .140

	Jane

	Your Vauxhall alarm may be a remote one but the standard offering is one
which is activated by key via the deadlocks, and in this case the VSL alarm
is far superior as the thief has to gain entry to the car to switch it off, 
but the Vauxhall alarm can be defeated by 2 minutes with screwdriver on the 
door handle.

	Andy

    Believe it or not I've got both alarms fitted.  The VSL is good as a
    remote but is susceptible to the 'grabber' and I've often come back to
    the car and found it unlocked.  I figured that I shouldn't play 'making
    the red light come on' on the remote thingy as it's a radio control not
    infra-red.  Still I've found it unlocked in the mornings though,
    perhaps the cats have been playing with the remote:-)
    
    The Vauxhall alarm does deadlock the doors (which the VSL doesn't) so a
    thief can't just break the windows to get in or use a 'grabber'.
    
    I'm hoping a thief will be so confused by two flashing LEDs they'll
    give in without trying :-)
    
    tp                                         

Trevor

	I have both on my Astra GSi, but have never found my car unlocked in
the morning. I - as a precaution - use both anyway, but on any of my five 
previous cars with VSL alarms fitted have I never found the car unlocked, or 
the alarm disarmed. I would definitely contact VSL and have the alarm fixed.

	Just out of curiosity, has anything ever been taken from you car when
you've found it unlocked ?

Andy

    Andy,
    
    It's probably not the alarm that needs fixing, it's me.  The car is
    parked within range of the VSL remote so if something in my pocket
    bashes against it (e.g. book or other keys) or something bashes against
    my coat (e.g. the wife) that could be unlocking it.  I'll have to
    start hanging it out of reach :-)   Meanwhile, yes I do use both alarms
    when I park it anywhere susceptible cos the VSL one doesn't unlock it
    then.
    
    Mine's an Astra GSi aswell, but its a takeover so I don't know the
    history.
    
    tp

Maybe you should wear lead trousers Trev!

re .150

>    Well the Calibra's getting long in the tooth (57k miles) and I'm
>    seriously considering replacing it before it becomes worthless.

Peanuts Mark. Mine's done 106k miles and when nosing around a Rover dealer
recently, I was recently offered 5,500 pounds part ex on a Rover 220 Turbo 
Coupe. To be perfectly honest though, it is still in good condition, drives
better than you might expect (given 106k miles in just over 3 years), so I'll
be keeping it a bit longer.

If you want an interesting experience, try test driving the 220 Turbo Coupe.
Looks nice, reasonable amount of space in the back, tho' not as much as the 
Calibra. Wonderfull straight line performance, but terrifying interesting 
cornering. Sometimes it would fly round bends as if on rails, and others left
me reaching for the Andrex. The salesperson looked a bit shaken as well.
In spite of that, it was fun and I'll certainly consider the 220 when looking
for the Calibra's replacement next year. There again, I'll probably look at 
another Calibra as well.

Clive

    Mark,
    
    Dunno how much it it but have you tried the 4 wheel drive 16V Turbo
    Calibra?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Be a Real Man - buy a Capri.
    
    Or are they calling it a Probe.
;-)

	I must confess to having admired that nice shiny red GSi this morning,


	Very snazzy, but it must have a different engine to any Rover 220 I've 
driven because I didn't think they had "absolutely tons of torque" and was very 
revvy, not that that makes it a bad car. The 2.0 16v engine in my Astra GSi has 
what I'd describe as "absolutely tons of torque", and I thought it was similar
unit as the Calibra 16v (although I understand the 2.0 16v engine has recently 
undergone a revamp, mainly to make it quieter).

	Looks great though and your right about the interior, much nicer. 


Andy

    
    Umm. Well they did replace the M16 2 litre with an improved torque T16
    engine a while ago, maybe that's the difference. It's probably no
    better than the Calibra's 16v, but it's certainly a lot better than
    many of the others. The 220GTi I drove actually seemed more flexible
    than the Calibra though on the test drive.
    
    BTW it will rev to 6500 rpm, but I don't imagine it'll be neccesary
    very often.
    
    Mark

I think the people who refer to Rovers as Old Men's cars
are those who haven't driven one since the new 200 was 
introduced.



	Ian

	As I might be replacing my car soon , are you prepared to say waht
	sort of deal you did?

	And do they still have their warrenty where anyone can service as
	long as they sign the book, rather than an authorised dealer?

	Thanks,
	Heather

    
    I didn't drive too hard a deal. They offered a fair trade in against
    list (most dealers wanted to do it that way rather than offer discounts
    on the list price).
    
    Don't know about the warranty terms. I'll have mine serviced by a main
    dealer (probably the one in Fleet, where I purchased the car).
    
    Mark

    
    Well I've just got a new (to me) Rover 827 Vitesse ( its a 90 ) and I'd say
    its an old mans car, Auto, electric everything, big wide seats and Power
    steering, But then again I'm an old man, nothing wrong with that.
    
    Auld Codger

    The 220 DOES have tons of low down torque.  It's not a power or high
    revs engine though.  Going to the rev limit is rarely required.  Mine's
    (220 GTi 6 months old) drinking oil, though this is unusual.  Rover are
    about to sort this.
    
    The torque is wonderful, I've not driven better, the handling is
    excellent too, very well balanced: does the GSi retain the old GTi 
    suspension?

    
    Re .161 GSi suspension.
    
    The 220 GSi and Turbo have 'lowered, uprated suspension' according to
    the brochure. Mine certainly feels like the GTi I test drove.
    
    Mark

    
    Only about a 150kgs difference in favour of the 220.
    
    The key may well be the issue mentioned in the Land Rover note ( I
    think). The T16 Rover engine produces its PEAK torque at only 2500 rpm,
    whereas even the Vauxhall 16v engine produces its (slightly greater, I
    think) peak torque at much higher revs.
    
    Mark

   RE T.
    
    I don't think so,but I may be wrong,I thought they only did the 220
    Turbocharged (and the 1.8 diesel models)
Am I wrong.
    
    Andy.

	Isn't it the 220 thats being discussed ?

	My understanding of T16 is 

	T= Torque (or torque improved )
	16= 16 valve

	But I could be wrong....

    
    Yep, we're talking about the 220, but NOT the turbo version (which uses 
    a turbocharged version of the T16). FWIW, I think Andy is spot on with 
    the nomenclature.
    
    Here's a comparitive table of some cars I looked at.
    
    			Max Power		Max Torque
    
       Rover 220 	136PS @6000 rpm        185Nm @2500 rpm
    	220 Turbo      	200PS @6000 rpm        237Nm @2100 rpm!!!
       Renault Clio 16v	137bhp@6000 rpm        158Nm @4250 rpm
       Calibra 16v	150PS @6000 rpm        196Nm @4800 rpm
       VW Corrado 16v	136bhp@5800 rpm	       180Nm @4400 rpm
       Mazda Mx3 1.8	134bhp@6800 rpm	       160Nm @5300 rpm
    
    Mark

I think `T' is just an arbitrary identification given to a particular
engine series.  Equally meaningless designations are `K' for the
current 1.4s, `A' for the ancient 1300 mini engines, and the dreaded
`O' series used in Maestros etc.

Chris.

    The current 220 and 820 engines are the T16.  The previous version was
    called M16.  The 220 turbo actually uses a turboed M16.  I suspect
    lower production volumes of the turbo mean it's not worth updating 
    considering it's already thought of as one of the best, not so with the 
    steering though!  I suspect the limited slip diff causes problems with
    the turbo's steering, the GTi is fine.
    
    BTW Cosworth did the mods to go from M16 to T16, Rover didn't pay
    enough though, so they can't put Cosworth on the car.