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Conference terri::cars_uk

Title:Cars in the UK
Notice:Please read new conference charter 1.70
Moderator:COMICS::SHELLEYELD
Created:Sun Mar 06 1994
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2584
Total number of notes:63384

1086.0. "live axle v. de dion axle" by VOGON::ATWAL (Dreams, they complicate my life) Thu May 24 1990 17:19

does anyone know what the benefits/differences are between having a live rear
axle & a de Dion one?

i know that the de Dion results in 'lower unsprung weight' dunno the advantage
of that tho'

also live axles are supposed to be 'crude' dunno why

would appreciate any help/info on this folks...

cheers...

...art
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1086.1What is a De Dion axle?IOSG::MARSHALLI have a cunning plan...Thu May 24 1990 17:356
1086.2BrieflyVANILA::LINCOLNThe sun has got his hat onThu May 24 1990 17:5710
	It's an axle with universal joints where each side pivots. The
	drive shafts are of constant length and constrained by a pivoting
	arm. Hence the wheels don't stay vertical as they move up and 
	down.

	Modern IRS systems tend to incorporate splines in the driveshafts
	which allows for the wheels to remain vertical or adopt whatever
	orientation the designer wants.

	-John
1086.3SKIWI::EATONMarketing - the rubber meets the skyFri May 25 1990 02:273
which is one of the major problems with live axles (i.e. a solid casing from
diff to wheel bearing). Limits roadholding, as well as more obvious things
such as suppleness.
1086.4Less brieflyDOOZER::PENNEYFri May 25 1990 23:5183
Previous notes aren't quite right about what a de dion axle is.

Essentially (in plan):


 	      - "de dion tube" -
        ______________________________
  _    / ____________________________ \    _
 | |  / /		  	     \ \  | |
 | |_/ /	     ____             \ \_| |
 | |  /             / ** \             \  | |  ** diff. is fixed 
 | |  |=X========X=< diff >=X========X=|  | |     to chassis
 | |_/	            \    /   	        \_| |
 | |    ^        ^   ____   ^        ^    | |
 |_|    |        |    ||    |        |    |_|
wheel   |        |    ||    |        |   wheel    
        |        |    ||    |        |
         -------------||----------------------------Universal 
                      ||                             joints (4)
                      ||
                      ||
 		  prop.shaft            ^
                      ||		|
                      ||	    [rear of car]
                      ||


Dunno if above is comprehensible.  The "de dion tube" is really just like a 
live axle in its geometry. It's a rigid tube, with the wheels (hubs) fixed 
to it just like a normal live axle. Springing medium can be coils, torsion 
bars, leaves, whatever.

As the car goes over bumps the dd tube goes up and down in just the same
way as a live axle.  De Dion suspension is *not* independent, because both
wheels are mounted on the same rigid tube: as one is deflected by, say, a
bump in the road, the other must also be affected to some extent. 

The following are some of the theoretical pros/cons. of De Dion suspension.

Pros: 
1. The road wheels stay vertical to the road surface at all times (ignoring
tyre deflections), regardless of body roll - always maximising tyre tread
contact area, and generally giving predictable handling. 

2. Less unsprung weight compared with a live axle.  Meaning that you don't 
have a great gormless mass of a differential leaping up and down generally
disturbing equaninimity - the differential is fixed to the chassis.  
[Unsprung weight means the bits of the car which "directly" jump up and
down over bumps, through being, in effect, fixed to the wheels.  The less 
unsprung weight the better for good ride and handling] 

Cons:
1. Compared with independent rear suspension: usually greater unsprung
weight (the de dion tube itself being fairly massive, even though lighter
than a live axle) 

2. Compared with a live axle: greater complexity - four universal joints 
(vs none), and the need, with all but one system, for telescopic (splined) 
drive shafts.

Re the need for splined drive shafts, think about it - given that the dd
tube is rigid, i.e. fixed in length (= constant track), simple geometry
means that as a wheel rises and falls, that drive shaft must change in
length as its angle changes. This requires either a splined joint somewhere
along the shaft, or that one of the 2 U.Js in each shaft is itself designed
to accomodate length changes - eg. the crude-seeming rubber "doughnut"
coupling beloved of Hillman Imp and original Lotus Elan owners (not that 
either of these cars had DD suspension - they were both independent).

The only exception to this (way of dealing with drive shaft length changes) 
that I know of is the Rover P5, i.e. 2000/2200/3500, made from 1964 to 
1976.  Here the drive shafts were of fixed length, but the DD tube itself 
was telescopic, incorporating a splined joint.  This had the very nominal 
disadvantage that wheel track did not stay quite constant as the car went 
over bumps/round corners (but nor do most independent systems give constant 
track). On the other side of the coin it had the advantage of having no
supposed-to-be-free-sliding drive shaft splines to suffer from "stiction" 
when the car was under heavy power in a low gear. This ingenious suspension
was just one of several pieces of lateral thinking in a design which seems
now to have become underrated.

And yes, De Dion cars built around the turn of the century *did* have De
Dion suspension!