Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    Mr Wegg,
    
        How dare you use Note 970 . Its the code number for a very rare
    as yet unbuilt Fairthorpe using RB211 technology .
    
        This is possibly the car you are interested as British Aerospace
    now own the MG name ..... the RB211 is more akin to some funny
    aeroplane ..... and Fairthorpes were built in an old aircraft hangar.
    
        Now where's that share application form for Fairthorpes !!!!!!
    
           Chris.

	I've heard this too, but know nothing more than the basenote
	really.

	It seems though that the 2 seater convertible is on the way
	back in. I just hope they make a good job of it styling wise.
	
	Wouldn't the 200 floor pan be a bit too big for such a car?.

	-John

    
    No comment on the MG-F (I think it's an F)?
    
    I saw a clip on the new MG roadster on Sky News on Friday. It's  a 1.8
    litre mid-engined roadster (proper convertible, not a T-bar like the
    MR2). The front looks remarkably Mazdza MX3 like (probably the lights)
    and it won't appeal to the people who bought the RV8.
    
    However, it looks modern and the interior looked very stylish with the
    dash seeming to wrap around the driver into a central console. I think
    it looks a winner (I can't recall prices, but they sounded reasonable).
     
    Apparently, a 'limited-number' will go on sale in July.
    
    Mark
        

Prices will be around 18k.  Although MG/Rover will be attempting to pitch it 
against the MX-5, the prices are considerably higher.  Bit of a risk, methinx, 
considering the flop that was RV8.

    I wrote in to Autocar about this when they first 'scooped' it.
    
    The car uses a modified Metro subframe at the rear with a 1.8 K-series
    engine. There are two versions (I believe) - including a 150bhp 1.8
    engine with variable valve timing.
    
    It all looks rather similar to GTM's K3, surprise surprise. And from
    what I've heard, Rover and GTM were in close liason when GTM were
    designing the K3.... is it conincidence that Rover decided to make the
    MG, complete with 'modified Metro rear subframe and K series engine'...
    the cars even look remotely similar, although I still think the Porsche
    roadster coming out is uncannily K3-esque.
    
    As an aside, the K3 does all the MG can for a heck of a lot less money.
    
    :-)
    
    Dan$plug_for_GTM_or_what?!?!

    There was a photo of the MGF in the papers yesterday, looks ok to me. 
    I wonder if they'll let me have one cheap since it has my initials? :=)
    
    mikef

Nah, I tried that before...

MG.

    
    So is the VVT engine the same as the VTEC in the Civics (1.6)? 
    Presumably they'd use the 158-ish(?) bhp unit from the VTi if it is...
    
    Chris.

    No, it's not. It's Rover own design of variable valve timing - not even
    robbed off BMW (allegedly).

	Well I'm still enthusiastic about this car, but with two children
	my interest is now somewhat academic. It's an awfully long time
	since I entered the base note. :-)

	I saw the car briefly on News At Ten last night, and it looked a lot 
	better than the picture in The Times. I'll be interested to hear 
	the opinions of anyone who's seen it at Geneva.

	Ian.

	Slight rathole: The Times article mentioned that Rover are now
	investigating the possibility of building a Jaguar rival under 
	the Wolsley and/or Riley badge.

    Ian, 
    
    It was interesting to read your base note. Particularly the matching
    personal name :-)
    
    Royston

    Has anyone got any information about the new MG? I have heard about it
    at a motorshow this week and it is supposed to look like a cross
    between an MX5 and a Probe..
    
    Sounds interesting..
    
    Lee
    

    See note 970, some of the latter replies :-)
    
    For future reference, DIR /TIT="MG" works wonders!
    
    As a small aside, the car is fairly nice looking.
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

hmmm...to these eyes, it looks like a cross between an MX-5 and an MX-5.  Maybe 
there's a bit of Elan in there, but that's probably just because of the acute 
angle of the windscreen.  Very plasticy looking interior, but it appears to 
capture the MG spirit far better than the white elephant RV8.

    Re .1
    
    I did look but a note titled "New MG" dated in 1990 didn't look like it
    counted!! ;*)
    
    L
    

    Fair point!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I think the headlights look very much like those on the
    new Aston DB whatsit
                        .
    pc

    The new MG is meant to be at the Geneva motorshow. If it is I'll post
    impressions shortly.
    
    Paul

    I have spent some cash and got a few mags that have details about the
    new MGF (In the TOP GEAR mag it's in 3D too!! ;*). Looks like it might
    be a nice little car, the only problem is that no-one seems to have
    driven it yet - just sat in it and took lots of pretty pics.
    
    There were some reservations about the amount of window that you got -
    a little on the small side...
    
    I wonder what they will be on the scheme.... 
    
    Lee (not-getting-his-hopes-up-too-high)
    

    I've seen a couple .... at the Geneva Auto Show ! Looks good !
    
    The Fiat Barchetta looks OK too.
    
    Most impressive (personal taste) to me is the new Alfa Romeo Spider and 
    GTV Coupe.
    
    Best of show is still (personal taste again) the DB7 (in BRG!)
    
    The new F50 leaves me without any real feeling, just like the recent
    Testarossa or F512M.
    
    Ital Design, who produced some recent show stoppers (BMW NAZCA and
    BUGATTI EB112), are displaying their LAMBORGINI CALA, based on the
    shelved P140 project (V10, 4ltr engine). Will it become reality ? 

        Like .26, I shelled out on a magazine, and was very disappointed. 
        
        The pages of coverage amounted to just pictures of a static
        model, some (manufacturer's) technical and performance
        details, the views of MG owners, a history of the marque and a
        brief explanation of hydragas suspension.

        Apparently it will be another 3 months before anyone gets to
        drive one.  Oh well, we've waited this long already...

        Ian.

    <blah blah blah> K3 <blah blah blah> if it drives anthing like one of
    those <blah blah blah> very grippy <blah de blah blah> soaks up
    mid-corner bumps <blah blah> at first seems oversoft <blah blah blah>
    confidence inspiring <etc......>
    
    :-)
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

Oh good - hydragas!

Just like on that other world beating vehicle - the Austin Allegro.

Wonder if it will share other winning features - such as the superb windscreen
replacement system - 'engineered' into the Allegro.

    Good question. Is the new MG using hydragas then?
    
    Dan$hasn't_read_the_articles

Wonder if it'll get the Allegro mkI Square steering wheel too...

    re .31
    
    Yes the MGF uses hydragas suspension, but it would be more realistic to
    say "like the current Metro" rather than "like the Austin Allegro". In
    the Metro and, hopefully, the MGF, the Hydragas system actually works.
    Amazing when you think of the Allegro, but it's true.
    
    Clive 

    ...because it got connected the way Sir Alex Moulton had originally
    envisaged, and not the Rover botch-job that the AllAggro/Metro got...
    
    In fact, Moulton was so annoyed he took an Allegro and converted the
    hydragas to how HE had designed it, and showed it to Rover.... they saw
    the error of theirs way, allegedly.
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    
    Of course, there's no such thing as the 'current Metro'. The old Metro
    having been replaced by the all new Rover 100 :^)
    
    Mark

    Of course :-] !
    
    As an aside (sorry it's this K3 again, but seeing as it's the closest
    thing to the MG and I've been in one), the K3 does show a fair amount
    of body roll which is quite deceptive because, inside, the thing tucks
    into a corner and without so much as a squeel from the tyres, just digs
    in and goes round the corner.... no fuss at all. Hit a bump, it doesn't
    matter. The metro suspension and (new) hydragas really does work well.
    
    GTM's demo car doesn't have the GTi shocks either, so fitting these
    would stiffen it up slightly for track use (though GTM reckon there's
    not much need for shocks on the road going cars).
    
    I think the MG might be a nice little handler...
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    
    What about that Renault 2 seater rocket then.?
    
    
    Tom.

    re .37
    
    Is that this 2+2 that I have heard about?
    
    Lee
    

    The hard facts..
    
    			MGF 1.8i	MGF VVC
    
    	0-60		8.5		7.0
    	Max Speed	120Mph		130Mph
    	BHP		118 @5,500	143 @7,000
    	
    	Cost		16,000		18,500
    
    

	I didn't think that the MG RV8 was a "white elephant".  Rover
	(or whoever they are today) made a small batch, sold them and
	then made another.  They were never intended to be mass market.
	You could build yourself one for less - it's a B with all the
	suspension mods and a nice shiny V8 under the bonnet.   Whether
	or not they should have been made is another matter.

	As for the MG F, I know one of the test drivers (an ex-police
	driving instructor) and he tells me that they had two designs
	to play with, one front engined and one mid.  They obviously
	went for the mid-engined layout.  He was very happy with the
	handling of the car - and he's somewhat demanding as you might
	imagine.

	From the photographs in the Owner's Club magazine it looks
	very pretty (I could even scan them and put the bitmaps someplace
	if folks are interested).  The interior looks MX 5-ish.  That
	is clean and uncluttered.  Interestingly the dials have cream
	backgrounds to them and no the steering wheel is not square.
	Just on looks I'd have it over the MX or the MR2 - then again
	I like TVRs too.

	I wish them luck with it.  There were rumours/fears that the
	project would be shelved when BMW bought them but BMW obviously
	see a future for the car.

	Dave

    
    MN has a comment that 3 designs existed : Front engined FWD, Front
    Engined RWD and the produced Mid-engined RWD. The Mid-engined design
    won on the handling front so they went for it (I wonder how serious
    they were about the RWD model - there's little in Rover's range to base
    a RWD car on, so it'd've cost a packet to build).
    
    I'm interested in your comments on the RV8. What's the feeling in the
    MGB world on the advisidness of building it?
    
    One of the big things BMW made a point of in their purchase of Rover
    was the wealth of heritage tied up in the 'older' names. I, personally,
    hope we see Triumph make a return (although the sporting saloon and
    sportscar image of Triumph sits a little uncomfortably with MG and even
    BMW itself) and I've heard (maybe even here?) talk of a Jaguar challenger 
    (luxury saloon in the 'Gentlemen's club' style) under (I think) the Riley 
    name.
    
    Mark
    
    PS BTW, I like the look of the MG-F the more I see it and the
    performance in 1.8 form looks good for the type of car and price. Isn't
    the performance close to an MR2? Add the MG name, a PROPER convertible
    roof and a (I think) cheaper price (and probably insurance too, in the
    UK) and it looks as if it _should_ have a rosy future - but that's what
    they said about the Elan too...
                 

    re.RWD Rover
    
    They followed the GTM route. From what I gather (certainly the
    prototypes were like this, final production models I don't know) it's a
    metro front subframe, lifted and moved to the back. The steering is
    locked out with control arms, but otherwise it's not a hard thing to
    do. It just bolts in.
    
    re.Performance
    
    Do we have a weight for the car? The K3 weighs in at ~700kg. I'd be
    interested to see what the MG weighs, power is produces and the (say)
    0-60mph time it makes (which we have already in here, actually).
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    
    Re .42
    
    Sorry. I meant the Front engined RWD one, I realise how they could raid
    the parts bin to make a reasonable mid-engined RWD car.
    
    Mark

    Scan the piccies in and put them in Dave Kerrell's picture gallery!
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

	re: making the RV8.  The club is somewhat nostalgic in its
	outlook - you have to be to drive cars with 30 year old
	suspension technology (actually, my MG BGT's been upgraded).
	Sofar as the club is concerned, it was pleased to see the
	MG badge on a sports car.  Even an exercise in leather and
	walnut nostalgia.  Don't forget that the club played a major
	roll in keeping the MG marque alive.  Without their enthusiasm	
	there would never have been an MG RV8 or MG F for that
	matter.

	Scanning pictures.  Ok, unfortunately my scanner is black and
	white only but of good quality.  I'll play tonight.

	Dave

    
    Re .45
    
    Cheers Dave. I thought that was the MG club's outlook, but I wondered
    from your note if it was a bit different.
    
    Do you find the MGCC splits into pre-B and B owners? I reckon the kind
    of person who buys an F will have a different outlook on life to most
    of the current club members! 
    
    Mark

	The owner's club splits into several catagories:

	Pre-war (MG TDs, TFs and so on).
	Post war - pre rubber bumpered B, BGT, C
	Post war rubber bumpered Bs and BGTs
	Modern saloon cars (Metro, Maestro)

	There is some "friction" between the groups.  Who'd
	flash and wave an MG Metro?

	I guess that the MG RV8 and MG F may form a further
	clique/sub-group.  That said, there's mostly an absence
	of cheque-book elitism.  Most MG owner's are ordinairy
	folks who either spend their own time or their hard
	earned money on their hobbies.  I guess that you'd
	call them grubby handed enthusiasts.

	Dave

    
    Oh yeah, I'd forgotten the modern saloons? What about the earlier
    saloons? Are they treated with contempt too? :^) I can, personally,
    never see why some MGB owners got snooty about the Maestro/Metro... 
    After all, the MG sporty saloon is almost as old as the MG name.
    
    Anyway, I asked because it's interesting to see how the Marcos clubs
    split out. There's the 60's cars owners (with maybe a sub group of
    wooden chassis owners - who either polish every part or swap stories of
    how the various parts fail - they view everyone else as less than
    kosher as we all know the 60's cars are best. Wooden chassis owners
    despise Steel chassised cars, but tend to associate with their owners
    as the cars at least maintain an outward air of period), there's the 'kit' 
    owners (who rabbit on about how to improve the car - not unique to owners 
    of the 80s cars, though, as I know a bloke who's spent a fortune converting
    a V6 into what's essentially a V8 Mantula - his work's excellent, but why 
    didn't he just buy a V8 to start with?!?!) and now we're getting the 
    Mantara owners who get CMI membership with their car - nearly all middle 
    aged couples somewhat bemused by the 'old style' owners and viewed with ill
    disguised animosity by that faction of the kit car owners who resent
    the fact that Marcos don't build kits any more.
    
    Of course, we have our MG Metro owner equivalents too, and their cars
    are Mini based, as well. I've never seen a really good Mini Marcos, but
    their owners are fiercely loyal about what are, in many cases, upturned
    skips on wheels! 
    
    Mark 
                                                  

	Re. 970.47

	Pre-war (MG TDs, TFs and so on).

	These are post war models - and so is the TC. You have to go
	back to the TA, TB and pre T series for Pre-War

	
	My experience of Car Clubs is that the members can rarely
	afford current models even if they wanted them. Also that
	those who buy new cars don't join car clubs.


	-John

Hi,

When I return to the UK this weekend I will pick up my MGOC
magazine and bring it back to France where I can access a 
colour scanner, Hopefully by the middle on next week I will
post a set of colour piccies for you.

What format do you want (JPG/BMP/TIF etc. ?)

\Graham

    JPG I think, they're a lot smaller than GIFs or BMPs.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    I just got off the phone with GTM.
    
    Yesterday they had an officianado from Which KIT? or some such kit car
    magazine, test driving K3 GTM, their demonstrator.
    
    This guy had also been lucky enough to have driven the new MG.
    
    This guy was very impressed with the K3 - said the ride and handling
    were superior to the MG.
    
    (Sorry, I know it's the MG note, I couldn't resist it... :-) )
    
    I'll shut up now!
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

	I took my Tahiti Blue 1977 MG BGT to the Knebworth show
	yesterday (the big MG jamboree) and they had (as I expected)
	the MG F on display.  This left hand drive example was finished
	in a rather yucky bronze colour (maybe they have been looking
	at the 1970's colour catalogs again).  In the flesh it looked
	good from all angles (a rare thing for a car).  It struck
	me as quite large but then again I like small cars such as
	Lotus Elans.  I guess that it is overall wider than the TVRs
	are.

	They were a number of MG RV8s at the show which my wife prefered,
	including one for sale at 23000 UKL.  Which is a bit sad when
	you could build yourself a better B for a lot less.

	Dave

    Hi,
    
    For those of you who are going to be near liverpool St station
    today or tommorow Rover have a stand in Exchange Sq, on display
    are numerous ordinary models but the best coupe i have seen for
    a long time is there; the MG-F you can even sit in it and have
    a good look round it......
    
    
    Cheers
    
    Mark

    
    Mark,
    
    I saw one of these on Saturday at their stand at the RAF Waddington air
    show; to be honest, it looks OK, but when the BMW Z3 (is that the right
    one?) comes out shortly MG-F's are going to be difficult to shift I
    think.  Then again, it may depend on how well they all drive...
    
    Chris.

    
    Ummm...it seems a bit unlikely that BMW will want the two models to
    compete head on (wouldn't they have just killed the F if they thought
    it'd be a Z3 competitor?).
    
    Got any more info on the Z3? I thought it was a Front engine RWD car
    and probably going to cost a fair bit more than the F?
    
    Mark

    
    Reports suggest that Rover asked BMW to rig the price of the Z3, but
    BMW wouldn't hear of it.  I think there was about 500 to 1500 quid in
    the prices or something like that.
    
    Chris.

    
    Where's the sense, though?
    
    It's all BMW's money now!
    
    If they really are planning to have two sportscars competing
    head-to-head a few (heads) should roll in Munich! :^)
    
    Mark 

    I don't see why heads should roll.
    
    If it sells more cars then it is a wise decision. Currys and Dixons are
    owned by the same company, they even sell exactly the same products, in
    the same street often. In that case people don't realise and wander
    from shop to shop. Cars are a little different, but not very. Some
    people would never buy a Rover so will look at the BMW. I would never
    buy a Ford or a BMW, so if I was in the market for this car type it
    would be Japanese. But the BMW group may well catch me with an MG. If
    the business plans make sense it is sound business.
    
    Andrew

    
    You may be right.
    
    Perhaps the BMW will be more of a cruiser than an outright sportscar?
    
    I guess the problem, as I see it, is the sportscar market is pretty
    small and each car may be taking sales from the other rather than the
    opposition, although I suppose its as likely to steal MR2/MX5/Barchetta 
    customers as it is the other BMW owned brand.
    
    Still, won't it be nice (for the lucky ones who don't need 4 seats) to
    have such a choice? 
    
    Mark

A quote from Jeremy Clarkson in this month's Q magazine;

"BMWs are Nazi staff cars"

<ahem>

If anyone is interested, there is a good WEB site covering most
aspects of the MGF - including some GIFs. The URL is:

www.ipl.co.uk/MG/MG2/mgf.html

Simon

    Anyone know the spec for the two models in terms of gadgets ?
    
    Chris

    Came back from holiday today to find an MGF in reception at BBP. Don't
    think it's available for test drives, but inspection is free and no
    salesman will pester you.

    Well, I'm back contracting at Digital and sadly the Porsche Carrera is
    long gone :(
    
    However, I'm picking up an MGF VVC on the 1st of August. I'll post
    updates as to what it's like to live with, problems etc. If anyone is
    interested in having a peek at the car, I'm working at the Newbury
    site.
    
    Oh, yes, it's British Racing Green (what else?)
    
    Jonathan
                

    Jonathan,
    
    When did you order this thing? My order was placed via Leaseplan in
    January and I have a delivery date of end Sept! I'm hoping that it can
    be pulled forward such that I at least see some of summer...        
    
    Cheers,
    
    Tony.

    Tony,
    
    I was fortunate and jumped the queue. I took over a dealers order in
    April. The car is due to be delivered to the dealers tomorrow. If it
    happens I'll be pleasantly surprised given the delays from MG. Where
    did you get your delivery date from ? There is an MGF hotline which you
    can call. I had my build number handy and initially they told me the
    end of September too. I pushed them a little harder for a definite
    date. They called back 2 days (!) later and told me it would be
    delivered to the dealer for final checks and accessories on 5th July.
    
    I'd be very surprised if yours wasn't sooner than before the end of
    September. Rover and MG are meant to be working hard to catch up with
    the backlog. If you order an new MG now, you certainly won't get one
    until well into next year.
    
    I'm also quite happy with this terrible weather right now :) I want
    summer delayed as long as possible as I intend to tour Europe in the
    MGF in September.
    
    Jonathan

    Jonathon,
    
    Any update on the MGF? How's it on motorway cruising? Is it really
    noisy, does the 'hard' top cut down the noise (if you've got one!)

    Aha!
    
    Well, I must say that the MGF is turning out to be a wonderful car as
    I'm driving it in. Having to compare it to my last car (911 Carrera 4)
    is tough, but not impossible...
    
    To answer Gregs questions:
    
    It's wonderful on motorway cruising. The suspension, though hard,
    doesn't judder and jitter as the 911 did. It's much smoother and the
    progressive (electronically measured) PAS gives much much better feel.
    Noise is hard to judge as I've been driving rear or mid engined cars
    for a while now and they tend to be a lot noisier than these new modern
    things that look like grey boxes. With the soft-top up there really is
    little noise, the main factor seems to be wind <cough> when driving
    into a head wind there can be some noise as the roof flexes and buffets
    (is that how to spell it...or am I talking cucumber sandwiches here ?),
    but otherwise it's very acceptible. This, along with the very rigid,
    non-flex chassis, is what has made it stand out from the ground in
    recent reviews of the MGF VVC.
    
    With the roof down, well, if you have the windows down too, you better
    hold on to your hair-piece. Certainly much over 60 or so. However, push
    the little button and raise the passenger window fully, and raise the
    drivers window by only a quarter (that's important) and the buffetting
    all but disappears. Sure your toupee still isn't safe, but you won't be
    eating flies. This is fine up to 110 (so I'm told, officer).
    
    As for niggles. Well, there's nothing that won't be sorted out on the
    first service which comes up at 3000 miles. The brake pedal is too
    high, the speedo wobbles between 30 and 50 a bit, the petrol guage
    isn't quite calibrated to show full when it's full. The exhaust seems
    to be blowing a bit too, but that may be my imagination. The jury is
    out on the driving position at the moment (there's not much adjustment
    and I'm 6' 1", so without steering wheel adjustment either, it can be
    tough on the knees).
    
    As you can see from that lot, I'm really enjoying it. Ok, it's not got
    the grunt or the acceleration of the 911, but it is much more fun to
    drive around in, especially with the hood down and the sun burning you
    face.
    
    Oh, just to mention at the end. The handling is also superb. With the
    engine mounted just forward of the rear wheels, the grip is fantastic,
    ever bit as good as the 4 wheel drive on the 911. Thrown into corners
    it just sticks like glue. I've been told that pushed hard enough, and
    obviously in the wet, you can get the tail to swing round, but with the
    excellent suspension and body strength, it's just a matter of lifting
    off (somthing you'd *never* do in the 911) and it pulls back in and
    behaves itself.
    
    Great fun. Buy one today...wait until next March/April before it'll be
    delivered (for the VVC anyway)
    
    Jonathan.
    
    Btw, I haven't got the hard top...I'll wear a bobble hat and donkey
    jacket instead :-)

    Tony,
    
    Ok, I know you've said that it's rather late at night when it goes
    off...but...now, this may sound odd, do you park your car anywhere
    near a place that has a microwave oven ? (ie the wall next to the
    kitchen, be it yours or a neighbours ? 
    There *is* a problem with the alarm where, amazing but true, microwave
    ovens set it off !
    
    The other thing is, obviously, be *very* wary of switching it off
    because of it going off. The most common way to nick a car that has an
    alarm is to keep setting it off until the owner becomes sick of it and
    disarms it...then off with the car.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Jonathan.

    Also beware of where and when you park the car...
    
    I parked my Xantia under oak trees in autumn and the alarm was
    activated by acorns falling off the trees.  The acorns bounced off so
    it wasn't until I saw it happen that I found out what the problem was.
    
    Have you been parking where small items could be falling on the car?
    
    Nick

    Chaps,
    
    Thanks for the suggestions. 
    
    Initially I thought it may be a cat or something jumping on the roof. So I 
    started to park it in the garage and it still went off everynight.
    There isn't any microwave or electrical items within close proximity of
    the garage to be setting it off either. 
    
    I reckon that due to it being very predictable - 4-5hrs after parking -
    it must be something like the engine cooling to a certain temperature
    or some sort of internal electrical discharge setting it off.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Tony. 
         

    RE: .71
    
    What type of alarm is it? I asked because ours has "volumetric" sensors
    and they are known to be prone to problems with heat! I imagine it
    "dries" out the caps and in the end ours went off at will!
    
    Dave

    Anyone own a car like a MGF or MX-5 as a company car, and do serious
    >18k miles a year?
    
    I'd really like a car like this, but am concerned as to how viable they
    are for long distance motoring >3 or 4 hours on the road. ie Leeds to
    London etc.
    
    Are they really tiring to drive this far, or not? Anyone done serious
    distance in these kind of cars? Does the hard top help?
    
    any experiences gratefuly received!
    
    Greg

    Judging by the lack of answers to .76, nobody has driven a soft top any 
    distance then?

    Greg, one thing that would worry me is safety. With a high motorway
    mileage it would sensible to worry about the state you'd be left in
    should the worst happen.
    
    A family size car (Astra or bigger) would offer significantly more 
    safety with air bag and side impact bars than a small soft top two
    seater.
    
    Royston 

    Greg,
    
    Dont do it - I had a Peugeot 205 CTI that I used to travel between
    Liverpol and Woking in. It was a nightmare, the wind noise at motorway
    speeds was deafening, it felt unsafe and you had to chase the rear view
    mirror around the car because of scuttle shake. On the other hand the
    MGF is better - but not brilliant on a motorway. It still feels to
    fidgity on a motorway to be able to relax on a long journey since I
    have test driven one and a friend has one. Plus (IMO) it looks like a 
    handbag, give me an Alfa Spider anyday.
    
    Just my two penneth
    
    Richard Barrett
    

    Yeh, the more I think about it, the more I think the A3 or Megane with
    real roof would be bette! I also thought of 6am drives with -15 in a
    soft top!

    <cough>
    
    Well, as a "handbag owner" I'd like to defend the MGF. I travel on the
    motorway quite a bit (I've done 1300 miles since 1st August and I
    weekly drive from Birmigham to Newbury and back) and I find
    the car much less tiring that the gawdawful new Astra I was driving
    whilst waiting for the new car. The wind noise, as I mentioned in a
    previous note, is pretty negligable. You do obviously hear some
    buffetting when driving into a head wind, but otherwise this is one of
    the main reasons that many reviews rate the MGF so highly - because it
    is a practical everyday car. I don't have a hard-top, but from those
    that do, the word is that it's akin to driving a coupe, ie no wind
    noise at all.
    
    I will say one thing, if you are rather tall, there aren't many seating
    adjustments, but there is loads of leg room length wise, and an
    extremely comfortable rest for your left foot. I disagree that it's
    fidgetty on the motorway. I find mine stable in the extreme. At the end
    of the day, if you want a boring farts car then get a boring farts car.
    If you want something that's fun and IMO relaxing to drive, then go for
    it.
    
    Also, speaking of wind etc...It is possible to do 110 with the roof
    down and not lose your toupee (as I mentioned before), so I've been
    told, that is.
    
    If you're down Newbury way, you're more than welcome to sit in the
    passenger seat and be my next victim, erm, guest, and have a spin up
    the motorway to see what it's like.
    
    Regards,
    Jonathan
                                                   

	I can't believe what I'm reading in this string!  I owned two MGB's
	in the 70's and drove them for around 15K miles a year quite
	literally from the Lizzard to Fort William; without a roof whenever
	possible and in fact without even owning a roof for some of that 
	time. 

	I believe the 'F' deserves  to bear the MG badge and continue
	the tradition of the marque.  With respect, I'd suggest if you
	don't believe you could drive it on a 250 mile motorway journey
	then you're probably more in the tradition of a Vectra driver :-)

	Ian.

Last Saturday I picked up my new Landrover, a soft top.
On Sun day I drove down to Southampton with the rood off.
it was wind noisy and you could hear all the other vehicles.
The only other effect was dirt. At the end of the day my
forearms were a grimy grey due to all the dust etc. in the air.


Simon

    Forget the MGF, the backend looks like a family saloon anyway, Get
    yerself a Fiat Barchetta - beutifull styling, a real pleasure to drive
    and, with a wind jammer behind the seats, you can forget about
    buffeting below 100-120.
    
    As for the alpha spider - oh dear, its just a bloated TR7.
    
    Shaun.

    
    Is the Fiat Barchetta the one that looks like it had two designers - 
    one starting at the front with a ruler, one at the back working
    free-hand ?
    
    I'd take the Alfa or an MGF rather than the Fiat.
    
    Graham                                          

    Having test driven both cars, I can't agree with you completely Shaun.
    Styling is always a matter of taste, and both the MGF and the Barchetta
    have their plus points and their minuses, and maybe the Barchetta just
    has the edge. When it comes to drivability, the MGF beats the Barchetta
    out of sight. Handling is superb, performance is great and wind-buffet
    isn't a real problem. The MGF's advantage is pure and simple; it has
    the engine in the right place, driving the right set of wheels.
    
    Clive

    Obviously we have some amature drivers in this conference - and some
    bad taste ones at that.
    
    Shaun.

Get a real sportscar!! A Mercedes Benz SLK !!! :-))

Craig

    Engine in the right place, driving the right set of wheels ??
    
    Not to sure about that - I want a car that is fun to drive when you
    want it to be and undemanding when im tired. My Mk1 MR2 has the engine
    in the right place, driving the right wheels and performance is pretty
    good too - unfortunately anytime I drive it in the wet its a
    brown-trouser experience !! I think I prefer front engined, rear wheel
    drive - at least theres a bit of weight up front !!
    
    I enjoy the MR2 in the dry but it feels very like the MGF's i've been in -
    fidgitty !!
    
    Most of my driving is done on a motorway - so its hardly surprising the
    Nissan Primera comes out for that, its relaxing to drive and goes like
    stink !!
    
    Rick Barrett
    

    Erm, bearing in mind that the Barchetta only comes in left-hand drive,
    of course.
    
    I'm perfectly happy with the MGF and I'm off for a 2.5 week tour round
    Europe in September which should prove out its practicalities and
    comforts.
    
    Jonathan

    I had an hour test drive yesterday, much quiter than I expected, you
    can still hold a conversation at 80mph on a mway, with the roof and
    windows down! With the roof up, there's less road noise than the
    Calibra, but, obviously more wind noise, similiar to drivng a 'normal'
    car with a roofrack on. Now I've got to try and test one with the hard
    top.
    
    Anyone got Top Gear mag, issue 25, where they test the MGF and MX-5? If
    so, any chance of a peak at the article? Or if anyone has any other
    similiar articles from other mags, could they send them to me?
    
    Greg Hilton@lzo
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    Greg, I've the top gear mag where they test the MGF VVC against the
    TR7 (sorry, Alpha Spider) and the BMW Z3 - no mention of any mercs
    (sorry, Taxis) though.
    I've also the mag where they test the MGF aginst the Fiat Barchetta and
    the MX-5.....i'll mail them to you if you're interested ?
    
    Shaun.

    Shaun,
    
    Yes please! Could you mail 'em to me?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Greg

    RE: Safety. I e-mailed top gear mag to ask about the safety of the MGF,
    and got the following replies:
    
    All mass-produced cars have to be type-approved according to EU regs.
    
    Type Approval means that the car has to pass the EU safety regulations
    regarding the maintenance of passenger cell structural integrity upon
    impact. Thus the MG has to pass the same tests as the Volvo.
    
    

    
    bit like the exam rule really.... if the pass is 50%, then 51% is 1%
    wasted effort !!
    
    You would need to see if the car "just" passed/meet the EU regs or
    exceeded them by a long way.....
    
    Another way to guage it, I suppose, is by the ammount of "old" people
    that drive volvo's, who must have survived several crashes %*)))) or at
    least seen them (???) in there rear view mirror......
    
    - MARK -
    

    My 2 day test drive N4 MGF in Racing Green is currently in DEC park car
    park, just about to do some serious distance driving in it!

    In the Rover dealer's where I had the MGF test drive, they had a
    continously running MGF video, which may have been a screen saver.
    
    anyone know more about this, can we get it inside Digital, seeing as
    I'm assuming it's part of the work we did with Rover?
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg x-posted in uk-digital, and carsuk. 

    Any F owners out there who have a car phone fitted?
    
    Where did you mount the aerial?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Greg

    I got this info re safety of the MGF, very re-assuring! this was sent
    out to the mgf mailing list by a crash investigator!
    
    As chance would have it I have a report with photos on my desk at the
    moment of an MGF that had been in a double roll (for various reasons I
    can't divulge any other details) except to say that the windscreen
    surround stood up very well to the impact and was only pushed down
    about 2 inches. The driver of the vehicle got out without even a
    scratch. Cars such as the F are tested at various places such as MIRA
    and TRL and are not just tested with the static weight. A roll is
    induced by "firing"  one side of the car at a ramp similar to the one
    used by Russ Swift to do his balancing act that you may have seen at
    Gaydon this flips the car over and measurements recorded. 
    
    A steel roof on a saloon car works much the same way as the strength of
    an egg in that the enclosed 4 side structure is more difficult to
    deform than an open one.
    

    New colours can be seen at:
    
    http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cambs.mgoc/images2/0549701m.jpg
    
    Greg

With regard to recent 'discussions' on the MGF vs the MX-5, I have 
reviews from:

AutoCar
What Car
Motoring and Leisure
Complete Car

Where it comes ahead of the MX-5

Also Car Magazine named it 'the most innovative car in production'

Greg

It comes ahead of the Mazda MX5 as an overall package - notably for the VVC 
for being quicker and more useable as an everyday package - i.e. more space 
for luggage and its probably more refined as well - all of these points I will 
quite happily concede and if you read the magazines that is what they will 
say. However as a drivers car - all of them concede that the MX5 is a huge way 
ahead. This includes Autocar, Top gear and Whatcar magazine.

Please bear in mind im only a month or two into my MX5 ownership, when I 
ordered it I did so with a completely open mind as I had test driven most of 
the relevant competition ( including the Z3 & MGF in both VVC and 1.8i 
versions) I found the Mazda to be the most 'FUN', it wasn't as quiet as an MGF 
nor as accomodating interms of luggage. But it was by far the easiest to throw 
around corners with steering thats razor sharp in comparison to any of the 
others. 

This is what convinced me that as a 'Drivers Car' its superior and anybody who 
has an MGF on the scheme ( be it VVC or not ) is welcome to swap cars for a 
day or two with me and we can discuss the comparison afterwards ( Im based in 
Warrington )

Let me know if any MGF owners will take the MX5 challenge !!

Cheers

Rick Barrett

P.s My MX5 is a Dakar ( grey leather interior, Sony stereo, 15" Alloys etc)

        >>                  -< Take the challenge ? >-
        
        I've also heard that the Astra 1.6 Estate beats the MX5 into
        a pulp.  If you're down Basingstoke way any time I'd be willing 
        to take your challenge  :-)
        
        ~Ian.
        
        P.S. It's been 7 years now, I think it's time to change the
        title of this topic from "The new MG".

Re .-1

I not so sure about the Astra 1.6 Estate beating the MX5 - however if it was 
an AstraMax van then in on way would I argue !! I am permanently amazed how 
fast those things go - either that or the speedomoeter on my Fiat Coupe was 
well out !!

Then again - little else on the car worked reliably so why not throw the 
speedo in as well !!

Cheers

Rick Barrett

Well Rick, I'm afraid some of the reviews I have say the F handling 
is better than the 5.

But, it's horses for courses, if everyone like the same things, the 
world would be boring.

Greg

Greg,
re .-1

That simply isn't true :-

Autocar - Mazda MX5 - Getting old and threatened from Barchetta and 
MGF - MX5 reamins the definitive affordable roadster with handling 
yet to be beaten.

TopGear - claims the MGf is not the car it should of been.

in the TopGear supplement ( All cars available in Britain reviewed ) 
MGF is disappointing. Slow especially in 1.8i guise. Handling and 
steering not upto standard of competition. Drives like a front wheel 
drive hatchback.

Autoexpress - two weeks ago - MGF wins test but MX5 hailed as the 
best handling car and the most fun - although the MGf is easier to 
live with.

I remember the fury over Jeremy Clarksons original comment on the MGf 
at the motorshow two years ago when it was launched ( i was on the 
Rover stand supporting the DiSCUS system ) he slated it and Rover 
where not happy. Having driven the MGf I have to say that its just 
not a rear drive machine in the traditional sense. The VVC I drove 
felt exactly like my 1.9 205 GTI, with over steer on lift off only. I 
kept trying to get it sideways but it didn't want to know.

I think alot of people are blinded by the hype over the MGF - 
certainly alot of the magazines are - CAR magazine hailed it as the 
best sportscar in their test - they never compared it with the MX5 ( 
wonder why ?? )  Autocar magazine reviewed it with the Z3 and the Z3 
won saying it did everything the MGF did but gave 5% extra in all of 
the areas of driving pleasure - then they point out that no MX5 was 
present during the test and if it had been it probably would of won.

In Topgears multiple sportscar test - the MGF comes second to the TVR 
- but Tiff Needell rips the MGF apart saying its awful - Clarkson 
agrees but says its civilised and the seats are awful. The MX5 is 
hailed by the two of them as better handling - they then say the 
ultimate roadster is an MX5 with a Barchetta body shell.

I have nothing against the MGF - its just not my cup of tea - it's 
'nice' to drive but I wanted more tail out antics than it could 
provide. The Barchetta was nicer than the MGF - although Leaseplan 
said I couldn't have one because it was left hand drive.

Any enthusiast will still prefer the MX5 over the MGF - I am still 
confident enough to let any MG owner drive my MX5 and still say the 
MGF is more fun.

Cheers

Rick Barrett

    I saw the Top Gear group test also, and received a totally different
    message to you, Rick, regarding the results. How can a car come second
    overall, above the MX5, but then be poor in it's class ? I have a April
    1997 Autocar on my desk, and of the MG it say's ".....Pretty & able
    beyond it's price, whilst of the Mazda "....now outdriven by MG, Elise,
    Barchetta". I have nothing against the MX5, infact I think it's better
    looking, and will be easier to work on; biggest disadvantage is I only
    ever see women driving them !! 
    Personally I would't swap either of them For my TR6 - well
    I would, but only to sell & use the cash to buy two TR6's :-)
    
    Regards, Ian

Ian,

Except from TopGear's supplement a couple of months ago
TopGear Topcars - every car on sale in britain rated and assessed by 
our experts.

This is what it said on the MGF

Heading - Disappointing

2 stars out of 5

The much hyped MGf isn't the ground-breaker we'd hoped for. Its 
styling isn't especially exciting and, unless you opt for the VVC, 
performance isn't great either. Whats worse is that despite a 
supercar-style mid-engine setup, the MGF still drives like a 
front-drive hatchback. Its driving position is like a supermini and 
the interior cramped. The roof is well sorted and the boot's okay 
which is why people use them every day.

Likes - idea, VVC engine
dislikes - styling, uninspired handling

The MX5 from the same supplement.

Heading - The Original

3 stars out of 5

This is the car that started it all, but its still one of the best 
today. Only its pop-up headlights date the styling and its fabulous 
gearchange and well-balanced handling make it a joy to drive. The 
driving position is oerfect and the manually operated roof is so 
simple it can be raised or lowered from the driving seat. Its not 
fabulously fast but especially in 1.6 litre, but neither are its 
newer rivals. Try to get power steering as it makes life easier.

Likes - Gearchange, handling
dislikes - Styling ageing a bit

Of all sports cars ( including TVR's etc - the MX5 comes 7th overall 
- the MGf is down in 14th spot.

Later in the same magazine - Tiff Needell lists his favourite and 
worst cars - here is what he says about the MGF - 

What a lot of fuss about a dull-looking blob thats out-styled and out 
performed by its rivals.

In March 1997 Topgear the following is said :-

MGF

TN = Tiff Needell
JC = Jeremy Clarkson

TN: JC driving an MGF looks like noddy in toytown, you siit on it, 
not in it. Even before you're out of the car park your uninvolved, 
the wheel is on your knees..
JC I agree. The first thing Rover should do on the monday morning 
after they read this is find the man who put those seats in, shoot 
him, shoot his wife and burn his house, throw the seats away, burn 
the factory that makes them and put some decent seats in. Then its 
the best car here
TN But its also as dull as ditchwater. Nobody notices an MGF
JC Thats because theres so many of them around and thats because 
theyre bloody good cars - at least the VVC is
TN I havent driven the VVC, which may go well in straight lines but 
it'll still handle the same. Its get steering that doesnt feel 
connected, pathetic seats, no individuality. Its a shame and a waste. 
A wuss's car.
JC But you could live with it everyday and I reckon its faster than 
the boxster. The superb engine completely transforms it.
TN So its a good engine. End of sotry It's cissy looking. Its as 
bland and boring as the inside of a Primera.

Mazda MX5
TN Its old now but it still holds its own against this lot. it just 
loses points in the spunky looks department. It doesnt inspire 
look-wise but driving experience and value for money-wise its 
brilliant.
JC I suppose it is a little passe now to look. But it is also, 
still, stupidly good.
TN it's lovely. I love the handling, the feedback. It is the modern 
Lotus Elan.
JC Everything about it is superb, but these days, with all the 
competition sports cars are fashion things. The MX5 is like wearing 
dark blue wrangler jeans, its uncool. It had its day and it is now in 
need of a new body.
TN but as far as driving experience goes, its brilliant, faultless 
almost.
JC Were completely in agreement on that one. If somebody wants to 
give me an MX5 as a gift I'd be delighted.

When comparing the Fiat Barchetta they go on to say that the ideal 
sportscar is an MX-5 with a Fiat Barchetta body. 

The MX5 is the definitive sports car and easily better handling than 
an MGF !!

Cheers

Rick Barrett

MGF owners dont get upset - your car is faster :-)
but so is a Vectra SRI !!

	There is nothing 'Original' about the MX5, since it is 
	basically a 1962 Lotus Elan with modern, reliable 
	mechanics and build quality. I like it.

	I don't care for the MGF much, what they should have built
	is a modern, reliable, well built 'version' of the 1962 MGB,
	this time with proper suspension, as this is what the market
	really wants.

	BMW are also having a lot of success with retro. I was able to 
	have a good look at the Z3 at the weekend, and although I'm
	not totally sold on the styling it's still a damn good car
	for the money - if you could actually buy one for list price 
	that is.

	I've also had a look at the Mercedes SLK and Boxster, both
	very disappointing. The SLK looks dumpy, sort of 1970s Leyland  
	influence, and whilst the Boxster looks good from the front, 
	the back is surely just someones idea of a joke - it really is 
	silly right down to the 'feature' single exhaust pipe. Neither 
	however can match the monumental ugliness of the Fiat Coupe 
	though, unless you include the Alfa Romeo that is, and even
	that can't beat a Fiat in yellow!

	I feel sure that the majority of buyers aren't interested in
	0-60 times or understeer at the limit etc, etc. What they 
	want is style and fun. Some cars may be for facts and figures
	types but the majority 'vote' for other reasons.

	A huge number of convertibles were out last weekend, and they
	were all cruising along at 40-50 mph not testing limits of
	adhesion or imitating drag racers and this is what they're
	for.

	-John

Rick,

If I get time, I'll photocopy the relevant reviews that you say 

'are simply note true'

Greg

Rick:

You said "That simply isn't true" 

Well, far from me to bow to your superior knowledge, but:


AutoCar

Rover hasn't reinvented the MX-5. What Rover has schemed is 
infinitely cleverer. 

What Car

Handling and Ride Summary

MX5 ooo
MGF oooo

before the Elise the MGF was the best-handling roadster.
Compared with the MGF the MX-5's handling is less precise.

Summary: the MGF outdoes it (the MX-5) on the road and feels a more 
mature car for little more money. It outpoints the MX-5 
comprehensively.


Motoring and Lesuire

it has a far superior ride (to the MX-5) and composure over 
mid-corner undulations.

Complete Car

Through the same fast corner, which the MGF's suspension rode so 
impressively the Mazda developed quite a violent pitching action. 

It's noiser than the MGF and doesn't ride as well as the MG

Verdict:

1st MGF: roadholding and handling will appeal to the expert driver.
2: Fiar Barchatta
3: Mazda MX-5
4: Alfa Spider

Greg,

If you would please. I would like to see if they do rank the MGF as more fun 
than an MX5. All the tests I have seen where the MGF wins the MX5 isn't 
present in the test or they rate the MGf over the MX5 because of its hatchback 
like qualities i.e. easy to live with, quiet etc. Or the fact that the MGF 
uses fuel at a better rate than the 22mpg I get from my MX5 regardless of how 
I drive it.

Cheers

Rick

So what we have is a number of magazines who obviously disagree on the 
qualities of the individual roadsters. Tiff Needell who likes cars that handle 
well doesn't rate the MGF at all whereas other magazines seem to like it.
In terms of handling the various magazines see it like this :-

Autoexpress prefer the MX5
Topgear prefer the MX5

Autocar preferred the MX5 and now prefer the MGF ( swapping of camps ? )
Although in their first review of the MGF - the MX5 wasn't present although at 
the end they do state that had it been present it would of won the test.

Motoring Leisure prefer the MGF
Whatcar prefer the MGF

Although im a bit worried about the constant that they prefer the MGF because 
it rides better ???

Having spoken to some MGF owners over the bank holiday (3)- all bar one has 
told me that they wont be getting another because they're not impressed with 
it. They don't go for drives for the sake of it because 'There's no point' in 
one persons words. One did love it though - although all said they had gone 
off the looks a bit.

Can you photocopy the articles from your magazines and send them to me please 
- I would like to read the full article.

Cheers

Rick