Conference terri::cars_uk

Hi Chris,

There is probably a better note for this but anyway...

I have put NCTs on my GTIs for a few years now and find them excellent, both 
in the wet and dry.  I have been told that P600s are better in the dry but 
worse in the wet, and I found the Michelins (sp?) it came with too hard -
useless in rain.  Unfortunately, noone seems to have done a proper controlled 
comparison between different makes of tyre with the same car and driver and 
since I change my tyres only every 30 000 miles or so, it's difficult to 
remember what the last set were like!

I do find that at the recommended pressures, the NCTs wear in the middle 
before the edges - surprising 'cause I'd have expected the other way round.  
Maybe I should try lower pressures, but 26psi seems low enough!

Cheers,

Mike.

    
    Re .3
    
    They suit the Renault very well thank you, and as I have to pay
    for them I don't mind them lasting more than 6000 miles!
    
    Mark

    
    Well what do you expect running them at 32 psi!!!!!!!
    
    They're 24 psi on the Renault front and back. I didn't realise you
    had MXVs. At that pressure you'd probably get as good grip from
    solid rubber tractor tyres! :^)
    
    Mark

But hang on a minute, I checked at a garage, and they recommended 26 psi f&r.

The reason I used the garage info recently, is that I accidentally left the
owners manual at home.

I'm quite happy with my MXV's but might be tempted by pirellis if I have to
change all four in the near future.

Mark.

does anyone know the legal requirements as to tread depth etc?

just checked my spare and it's very nearly bald in one patch

...Art.

    
    the spare will be "legal" until you need to use it, and then it will be
    totally illegal.
    
    silly bit of law, but there it is...

    
    Basically the tread should be at least the depth of the edge of a 10p
    piece all over.
    
    Personally I think this is not enough, I change my tyres before it gets
    that bad...

    re: .10

    You sure about it having to be that depth all over ??? I thought
    there was some percentage of surface fugure in the calculation.

    Mark

   It used to be 1mm(10p) over 2/3rds of the tread if memory serves. 

   But I think its now 1.6mm over the whole tread or summat like that??? 

    re .13
    
    Depth is measured anywhere on the tread. There's no area factor
    in the calculation.

    re: .14

    Is this a recent change ??? I had assumed that tyres worn on the
    outside edge would probably still be legal.

    You live and learn ...

   Mark

    RE .15
    
     Been that way for a couple of years. I regularly have to replace
    front tyres on my wife's car just to get it trough the MoT test.
    She only does 5-6,000 miles/yr but it's all town driving and the
    power steering knocks seven bells out of the edge of the tread and
    that means they get relplaced every year.
    
    Before anybody says, I know that's heavy, but it's all town driving,
    parking, picking the kids up, all lock-to-lock haul the tyres around
    scrub as much as you can off the rubber stuff. Mind you apart from
    tax and insurance and an oil change each year that's all it cost
    me so I can't complain.

Daft as it may seem, you must have a LEGAL spare even if it's carried in 
the boot and never used.  On the other hand, there is no law which reqires you
to carry a spare .....  And watch out for the pressures - they MUST be according
to manufacturer's specifications (regardless of the antics practices in certain
quarters by members of this file!).

(Neighbour got done last year in a "spot check" because his spare was both bald
AND underinflated  :-( )

Brian

    There are exceptions to this rule, of having to have a legal spare, but
    also allowed to have no spare at-all,
    Some old cars, such as 60's,70's Volkswagons, and some Porsches, have
    windscreen washers powered by the spare tyre, this is at 45/50 psi, and
    in this capacity, it is not classified as a spare tyre!
    
    Carl.

Re: .17

> Daft as it may seem, you must have a LEGAL spare even if it's carried in 
> the boot and never used.  

Oh yeah?????

So what do you do when you have wrecked a tyre and fitted what was the spare???

I bet that's illegal too.....

jb

I would suspect that even the police will use common sense if you've put 
the (legal) spare onto the car so you can take the (now illegal) other
wheel to be fixed.  Maybe Thames Valley police aren't as nice as our
hiedbanners?????  :^)

    So how do the police know if you've just replaced the tyre, or you are
    telling lies?
    
    Do you have to have a tyre inspection a week later?
    
    ;-)
    
    Greg

Probably the same way they can tell if you fixed the exhaust pipe that was 
blowing, or the bulb that was out, or ......

    There is no obligation to carry a spare. Any tyres carried in a
    car, but not in contact with the road can be in any condition you
    like. There is only an obligation for the tyre to meet the standards
    if it is fitted to the axle.
    
    Thus if your spare does not meet the standards, you have no problem,
    provided you don't have a puncture.
    
    The Drive and Survive chappie said that he rckoned that 3mm was
    the minimum safe tread depth, over the whole wearing surface of
    the tyre.
    
    Steve

    
    If you go for an MOT your spare tyre must be in legal 
    condition. You are right in saying that there is no 
    obligation to carry a spare but if its there at the MOT
    its gotta be legal.
    
    A car does not have to have indicators at all but if they are
    there they must work. Sounds silly.
    
    Jeff.

Re: .24

>    If you go for an MOT your spare tyre must be in legal 
>    condition. You are right in saying that there is no 
>    obligation to carry a spare but if its there at the MOT
>    its gotta be legal.
    
I *know* that when my car has its MOT the spare has *never* been checked.

jb

       I know my garage DOES look at the spare - it failed me on it once
       (amongst other things). Their advice was to either replace it, or
       leave it out when I came for the retest.

       I was also caught on another MOT anomaly. A vehicle whose windscreen 
       is removable does not require wipers - the law assumes that if
       it's belting down with rain, you're going to take the glass out!
       With this knowledge, I confidently submitted my ex-army landrover,
       with no wiper assemblies, for an MOT.

       The garage were well aware of the rules. They failed it for not
       having washers! Apparantly, you are legally obliged to have some 
       means of squirting water in your face!     :-} <===:
                                      
       Ian.                            

    
    Well if they don't check your spare then they are not doing it
    right.
    
    I've been failed on a duff spare before. 
    
    Jeff.

At my last MOT (well, my car's MOT actually!) they swapped one of the tyres with
the spare.  Presumably the reason for this is that the spare was legal but the
other wasn't so I guess you must not need a legal spare.  This was a main dealer
not a backstreet operation so I think if they could get away with charging me
for a new tyre they would have done.

What we really need is someone who has a copy of the Motor Vehicles(Testing) 
(England & Wales) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1956 (as amended) Section 27 
(tyres (spare)) or whatever it's called.

Jon

    
    My car recently went thru an MOT. I'll look at the test sheet and
    see what it says.
    
    Jeff.

The test sheet does not specify that the apare should or should not be examined. 
I think whoever sugested checking what the law actually says is on the right
track as most of this is just speculation and rumour!

Mike.

ps I've never had my spare checked either.

.31>>what the law actually says is

I phoned Mr Plod and the answer from Strathclyde police traffic department is :

	Your spare tyre must be in serviceable and legal condition
	at all times.  It is a requirement that MoT testing stations
	check ALL the tyres on the car, and this includes the spare.

So, those guys who got prosecuted were done correctly.  Those people who carry
a punctured spare around in their boot are "technically" breaking the law but
it can be argued that they're "taking it to be fixed" so no-one is likely to
be prosecuted for such an offence.  However, the police CAN ask you to show
up at your local poilce stations, within 3 days if they want to push the point,
and show them that suitable repairs have been carried out.

Can we drop this subject now and get back to the topic? I know - I started it!

Brian

    I was wondering if someone could call Demon Tweeks and get some
    information on the Colway tyres for me.  I'm going to be driving in a
    hillclimb over here in the states in June.  The road is just under 8
    miles long and is 60% tarmac and 40% gravel.  Currently I have the
    14/60x14 Michelin rally tires on the car (1983 VW Rabbit GTI, Golf I 
    to you guys).  What I'm interested in as a smaller diameter tire, 13
    inch most likely, that would work well on that type of road.  I have a
    copy of Cars and Car Conversions with their ad, but it doesn't really
    describe what the different types of tyres are good for.
    
    They have:
    Rally Plus
    Rally MS
    MS Red Dot
    60 Series
    70 Series
    Rally Plus 4
    
    I have a set of Pirelli P7s, 175/50x13, that give me good acceleration
    on tarmac hillclimbs, but I think I'll need something more suited to
    gravel conditions for this event.  I do plan to have abotu 30 more bhp
    (up around 120 from my current 90) and a lightened flywheel for the
    event, so something taller than my P7s should work okay.  It's just
    that my Michelins are too big to get any good speed going uphill.
    
    I'd appreciate any information you can get me.
    
    Thanks
    Dave

    
    What does the panel think about dropping the pressure in the P600s on 
    my Calibra from 33 to 28? Any ideas what effect it'll have on the
    handling? Presumably it'll cause more (or at least different) wear.
    
    Mark

Try it and see...

If it wallows round corners...pump them up a bit...

    
    Re : Mark
    
    Front or back? 
    
    

Robin,

I tried just what you suggest! Actually, I forgot to check them for a couple 
of weeks and I wondered what was wrong - the mpg dropped off noticably (yes, I
was suprised too), but more to the point, I was getting a lot more wheel 
spin, especially in the wet. Handling was also affected, but the ride was 
smoother.

I've gone back to 36/33 now and all is well again.

    Does anybody have any experiences or opinions (as if I needed to ask;^)
    of Goodyear EAGLE directionals ?
    
    Shaun.

    
    Gotta get some new rubber for the Astra 16v soon. Anyone want to
    make any recommendations?  Kleber (currently fitted) will not be
    reselected.
    
    Ta.

    My 16v came with Continentals on it - I put Uniroyals on the front
    (taking the advice of Micheldever Tyres, who I seem to be refering to
    all the time at the moment).
    
    They are distinctly better - grip is higher and understeer less
    pronounced.
    
    
    John

IMHO the best tyres for the Astra1 16V are Yokohama AVSs - size 195/60 VR14.
They totally transform the car - providing enough grip to at least tame some of
the Astra's dreaded understear and sloppy chassis. These tyres are slightly
wider with a slightly lower profile than the original tyres, but you don't have
to worry about speedo recalibration - the difference is negligible.

In the Reading area, the Yokohama suppliers are:

	Elite Wheels & Tyres,
	Eaton Place,
	Reading

	Tel: 0734 504100

--Nick

    With the flavour of car you talking about, P700 are generally regarded
    as the best - but getting the geometry right (tracking, toe in ?) is
    much more important ``at the limit'' - I hope your not going to try
    this driving style on UK roads though ...
    
    	The Yokohoma's have a different ``feel'' to them and tend to be
    prefered by 928 drivers and other old men driving fat cars - sorry
    John.
    
    	Why not wander along to a PCGB meet (one of the Saloon Car races
    perhapse) and see what there running.
    
    	Rik

    re:the last few
    
    I had, until recently, an Astra CD (175/65). I never changed the rear
    tyres from the original Uniroyal, but did change the front one. Firstly
    to Goodyear Eagle NCTs, then to NCT2s. Verdict - make UniRoyals look
    like driving on ice. Much better grip/feel/etc. This had the
    interesting side effect of tail slide in a front-wheel drive car.
    
    Strangely, I think the NCT was better than the NCT2. Dunno why, just a
    feeling.
    
    The Renault has 195/50 NCTs all round. No complaints so far, even if
    the garage did deliver them at 5psi over pressure all round. (Course, I
    didn't bother to check for 1,500 miles !!).
    
    Colin

     
    I went to Micheldever, talked about a few different tyres, chose a
    Yokohama, and then told them I was paying with a PHH Fleetcard.
    PHH will only allow them to fit either, the same make/model as the 
    originals (using the spare if one of the fronts is not illegal and
    can be made into a spare), or Uniroyals or Continentals. Nothing
    else.
       
    I finished up with Uniroyals, they didn't sell Klebers (the original
    fit) and I didn't fancy Continentals.
    
    Richard. 

    
    Ah, do I hear another rat-hole about lease car benefits looming? :^)
    
    I suppose that, unlike us people who buy cars, the lease company has
    factored in a more or less standard tyre wear to the cost. If you wear
    a tyre out in half/three-quarters of the time, you'll be eating into
    their profits. In my case, I eat into my own profits! :^(
    
    It does seem a pity though, because I guess they'd quite happily pay
    out a third to a half extra if you had the tyres fitted at a dealer
    or chain-store tyre fitters.
    
    Mark

    rE:49
    
    Not true, dear chap. I had Goodyear Eagle NCTs fitted to my Ashtray
    (see various replies in this conference). The originals were UniRoyal.
    Before they fitted them, they looked at the tread. They told PHH over
    the phone that the max tread was 2.5mm. By this time they'd removed the
    tyres. It might have been fun if PHH had said no !!
    
    Colin

    Re .47
    
    Thanks for the coments (an yes it is a porker).  The traction at the
    moment seem fine in the dry, but as soon as it rains the rear starts
    dancing round roundabouts on the P7's.  I am currently thinking of
    going for the Goodyears, as from the comments I've read, they are
    likely to last longer than Yoko's, and currently doing in excess of 20k
    miles per year, I'll be broke if I have to keep replacing them every
    5000 miles!
    
    Shaun.

I was VERY disappointed with my NCT 2's on my Golf. The previous Uniroyals
lasted 30,000 miles - the NCTs only 13,000. As a result, I'm back on a brand 
new spec. Uniroyal (its got the widest "guttering" on the tread that I've ever
seen). Haven't a clue whether this tyre will last any better - but I shan't
bother with the Goodyears again.

Steve

    
    Shaun,
    
    Must admit I am no fan of NCTs, only got 10,000 kms on the last set on
    the Pug. If your car is the one that Willy thinks it is, go for
    Bridgestone RE71s.
    
    Colin

    
    NCT/NCT2s are not the same as directional Eagles.
    
    Mark

    >>Must admit I am no fan of NCTs, only got 10,000 kms on the last set on
    >>the Pug. If your car is the one that Willy thinks it is, go for
    >>Bridgestone RE71s.
    
    I am after some replacements for my existing yoko A008. My main
    criteria for choice is wear, in this respect, how good are the RE71s ?
    And also how much do they cost ?
    
    Any other recomendations ?
    
    Raj
    

    re .54
    
    I think he means you can get makes other than the originals,
    Continentals and whatever else you said.
    
    Mark

    I had NCT directs on my Cavalier SRi. Holding was good! But they wore
    down awful quick for my liking! Even the rear ones! And at that price!

    Well, I've had the quote back for Yoko's, so it looks if I'm going for
    A008P's (P = Porsche Approved !).
    
    I'll enter a further reply when I've got them, and tried them out.
    
    Shaun. 

I have the Yokohama A008's on my Supra and they are superb. 
Regarding Hertz leasing they (hertz) told me that tyres are:

a) Drivers first choice

b) Michellin or Pirrelli

I went from Dunlops to Yoko's with no hassle....

Regards

Bruce 

I changed my 309 GTi from MXV's to MXV2's.

Initial impressions are favourable, better wet grip than the MXV's while dry
performance is about as good. Don't know about wear yet...

Close examination shows a markedly different tyre.

    
    Well I've taken delivery of the A008P's for the rear, and initial
    impressions are very good.  I have'nt had an opportunity to try them
    out in the wet yet, but in the dry they are very impressive.
    
    Does anybody out there know what the difference is between standard
    A008's and A008P's (apart from price) ?  I presume it would only be the
    tread pattern and not the format of the tyre itself, but I would be
    interested to know.
    
    
    Shaun

    Are there any tyre experts out there...?
    
    I want to fit some new tyres to my Astra Sri (well, I'll need to in a
    few months), and I know nothing about types of tyres, different tyres
    for different conditions, etc.  I'd like to find something that will
    help keep the car on the road (even in the wet!).  Its not really
    driven in a hot-hatch style at all, but has to make its way around
    a lot of wet and twisty country lanes.
    
    Any pointers?  Any good reference works I could look up?
    
    TA in advance
    
    Mikef

    
    Back in the days when I was young and stupid(still am depending on who
    you talk to!!), I had an SRi Astra and in the 50,000 miles that I drove
    in it it was fitted with Dunlops (orig. from factory) Goodyear NCT's,
    Michelin mxv's and to be honest, apart from price, there isn't a lot of
    difference between them. On an Astra, they ALL SLITHER AROUND in the
    wet if you overcook it on a bend!!!!
    
    I am currently using Pirelli Psomthings on the Fiat Tempra S/w I
    currently have ....and surprise surprise..... they seem fine too, 
    
    
    So unless you are doing illegal/stupid things in the wet.. get the best
    price on big round black ones!!
    
    
    Yours slitheringly  Dave fae slidy Scotland

    >>they ALL SLITHER AROUND in the wet if you overcook it on a bend!!!!
    
    I find it also slithers around in the wet when going in straight
    lines...
    
    TA
    
    Mikef

>    I am currently using Pirelli Psomthings on the Fiat Tempra S/w I
>    currently have ....and surprise surprise..... they seem fine too, 
    
I had to get a couple of new tyres last week, to replace two blow-outs
(on the same day - it could only happen to me!)  As PHH wouldn't pay,
I had to fork out myself (okay, I might get it back on expenses) so I
opted for the less expensive Pirellis instead of Dunlops.  Unfortunately,
this turned out to be a stupid idea as new Pirellis appear to have next
to no grip, as I found out when the car span round several times as I
was driving along an almost straight section of road (at a sensible speed,
for once).  I wondered if there was oil on the road, but no-one else seemed
to have any problems, and I've had one or two other unexpected slides
since.  (Some people may say it's my driving, but this is a bit too erratic
even for me!)

Chris.

>to no grip, as I found out when the car span round several times as I
>was driving along an almost straight section of road (at a sensible speed,
    
    You had run-in the tyres by then, I assume ?
    
    I must admit I had a similar experience a couple of weeks ago, almost
    spinning the capri in Tesco's car park. And no, I wasn't going crazy, I
    was following the boss in her Capribra. That was on Goodyears...
    
    Just That Time Of Year, I suppose...
    
    Rob

Both the Astra SRi (which is now driven by Mikef) and the Calibra wore
Pirrelli P600s. The Astra's handling was always 'interesting' but I put
this down to the car rather than the tyres. I've never been that impressed
by the SRi as it seemed to corner like a frightend cat. When I got the 
Calibra, I was so taken by the improvement in handling that I never 
bothered to look at the effect the tyres had. 

Recentlt tho', I have changed to Eagle NCT2s and the handling as improved
massively. It'll be interesting to see how they wear as is used to get
40k miles out of a set of P600s.

Clive

P.S. Anyone remember the Pirrelli adverts which had Stanley Unwin 
     describing Pirrellis as 'Thrify most on your spendy cash.' and
      'Oustandyfold in the wetty grippers.' ?

    >>it seemed to corner like a frightend cat. 
    
    At least you got it to corner...
    
    Mikef

Pirelli 600's were the most lethal tyres I've ever driven on in the wet, 
they are at their worst on a damp road.

    
    I found P600's to be good all weather performer on my Astra SR.
    
    
    Andy.

    I had MXV's on my MR2 and they we're completely useless, admittedly it
    could just be that they didn't suit the car, but all I know is that
    they hadn't worn at all in 20,000 miles whereas the standard Bridgestone
    (potenzas ?) are done-in after 8-10,000, I think the compound is too
    hard.
    
    .Steve.

Are you confusing P600s with P6s?  The P6s are terrible in the wet, but I 
have found my P600s to be much better.

Then again, could there be differences between the compounds they use for 
the UK vs US markets?

Dave

    
    I had P600s on my Calibra when I bought it. They were, as Clive
    implied, a real liability. The cheaper Directional Goodyear Eagles
    proved much much better in wet or dry conditions.
    
    Mark
    
    PS MXVs work very well on Renault 5 GT Turbos.

    
    
>>> Then again, could there be differences between the compounds they use for 
>>> the UK vs US markets?
    
    I believe they leave the 'squealie juice' out of European spec.
    tyres.... %^)
    
    Graham

    I had MVX I's and II's on the Front of a Peugeot 1.9 Gti and was really
    pleased with both wear and stability, apart from the obvious understeer
    in the wet when accelerating and turning.
    
    Front sets lasted 25-30,000 miles an I was still on the original rears
    at 40,000 miles.
    
    Andy
    
    

	I can echo .-1 except that my fronts only lasted for 
	20,000 miles

	-John

I used to have P600's on my first 1.9 Pug and they stuck like glue in the dry
but I had to be careful in the wet.  My second 1.9 Pug is currently shod with
MVX II's which are nearly as good in the dry as the P600's, but a lot better in
the wet.

The P600's did seem to be a lot softer than the MVX II's.  I used to go through
a pair of front tyres every 10,000 miles on the P600's but I now go through a
pair of MVX's every 30,000 miles.  This could have something to do with my
driving style :-)

Actually I've just replaced my first pair of rear tyres ( MXV II's ) on my Pug
at 70000 miles.  Can't be bad !

	Times and tyres change. What's the current opinion as to the
	merits of different makes particularly with respect to their
	wet weather capability.

	-John

    
    I'm currently running Michelin Pilot HXs (they came with the car)
    and what they say in the adverts about reduced road noise seems
    to be true! I'd recommend them for a quiet ride.
    
    Wet weather performance is ok - but the car is rwd and I've always
    found rwd easier to control in the wet than fwd. 
    
    Mileage is 27k and there's plenty of tread left yet.
    
    Richard.

    Well I'm running Toyos performance make (--03 something??) and, they're
    better in the wet than the terrible Falken jobbies I had on the car
    before. They are fine tyres, though probably sacrifice ride comfort and
    road noise for better grip, etc...

    I run Goodyear Eagle ZR directionals.
    
    If I hit standing water at 90mph, (_not_ intentionally) it gets noisy
    but there is no sign of aquaplaning.
    
    I drove on the Suffolk police skid pan and on one section, you
    accelerate until told to brake and the idea is to slow down _without_
    skidding and then, steer round an obstruction. The instructor said
    brake but I kept accelerating as it seemed much to early. At the second
    (worried tone of voice) command I did so and stopped in _half_ the
    distance between me and the obstruction. Well before the point at which
    I was supposed to start to steer round it.
    
    We were all impressed by the tyres that day.
    
    I have never driven any other mfrs directional tyres so perhaps they
    are as good. What is clear is that these beasts will hang on in the wet
    much better than 'normal' big name radials.
    
    Definitely good pnues.
    
    John O'Connor
    
    [In case anyone isn't sure what I am talking about, directional tyres
    have an arrow shaped tread pattern (like F1 wets) and have a fixed
    direction of rotation. The apex of the arrow head for each tread
    section is in the middle of the tread area and it hits the road first.
    Angled grooves then squeeze the water to the edge of the tyre meaning
    that much more of your rubber is in contact with the road surface.]
    
    		+-------+
                |\\\V///|
                |\\\V///|  Front view of tyre, the visible tread
                |\\\V///|  section is moving _downwards_ as the
                |\\\V///|  approaches _out_ of the screen.
                |\\\V///|
                |\\\V///|
    		+-------+
    
    
    
    
    

    Are these new goodyear jobbies that were on TV a while back the poor
    mans equivalent to these then ?  The ones I mean are the ones with the
    groove in the middle.
    
    I've got continental contatcts (came with the car) and am amazed how
    thay are lasting, I expect to get 60k miles out of 1 set.
    
    The're like stone, no concept of grip.
    
    Dave D.