Conference terri::cars_uk

    
    Wow!
    
    Top Gear gets controversial! They really slagged the Escort off
    yesterday (bad Steering, rough engine, etc, etc), which struck me
    as a fair set of criticisms, rather than the old chestnuts about
    the radio being too far away (one-touch pre-tuned radios, don't 
    require much in the way of retuning) and the sill being too high
    for people with back problems to load bags of set cement over!
    
    The item about handling was quite well done too, I thought, attempting
    to explain the technical jargon which litters the motoring press as if
    everyone should understand it. Not everyone who buys an MR2 will know
    what power-off oversteer is.
    
    Mark
    
    PS The Elan looked mightily impressive on the track.

    
    But the handling of the [very quickly shown] 944 Turbo was definately
    something else. A pity that it's handling statistics were'nt shown in
    full !
    

    
    The best Top Gear I've seen, maybe because Woollard wasn't prevalent?
    The review of the Escort was reasonable. I like Clarkson, though he's
    better on paper.
    
    The handling article was well above normal Top Gear standards -
    understandable, accurate and informative. Even showed the relevance
    to road driving... Two thoughts; about the MR2 - been there, done that.
    About the Elan - how ugly, how dull, how well driven! MIRA really is
    a superb facility, shame they didn't show the hill route - a real
    challenge!
    
    The classic rally report was, as always, super. Great photography,
    wonderful spirit, famous drivers. Shame about Unser, didn't come as
    a great surprise though.
    
    Bill.

	Yes I enjoyed last night's offering, particularly the section on 
	handling.  Tiff gives every indication of knowing what he's talking
	about and Jeremy is very entertaining too.  I thought that BMWs 
	anti-skid (or whatever) device was very well shown.

	Dave

	PS The lotus looks even uglier on the move than it does standing
	still.

    Yes, last notes 'Top Gear' should get an award for being both
    informative and entertaining.
    
    I liked the way the Ford was described as an 'appliance', which
    does not do its job any better than any other car etc.
    
    Not a Lotus (FWD) fan myself, but it did look quick.
    Than again, the Citroen XM went through the slalom at the same
    speed, with only slightly less composure.  That is a much more
    difficult feat with a car that size, wouldn't you say ?
    
    Also liked the 'article' on Pirelle Classic rally, even though I
    had read about it previously.  Seeing Bobby Unser giving the
    E-type Jag full welly up the Stelvio pass was some show.
    
    
    You never know, if Top Gear can put on this sort of programme
    more often, I may become a regular viewer.
    The prog. would improve if the got rid of 'wally woolard', he
    appears to have no interest or knowledge in cars.
    Whereas Tiff Needell is well worth having on the programme...
    
    J.R.

    Stupid question I suppose...
    
    ...anyone get this 'award-winning' programe on tape and willing to post
    it to me in France ?
    
    I really miss the coverage of the Pirelli Classic over here and had to
    make do with the write-up in Classic Car.
    
    AmS

    If you find a copy, could you pop it down to Annecy when you
    have finished with it ???

    I think that the Classic has been covered on one of the ASTRA channels.

 Mark

anyone got a copy I could borrow in Reading?

cheers...


...art

    
    Re .15
    
    Me! Now who was the other little known driver who drove those things?
    
    Mark

    Re. 7
    
    I'd like to see Derek (who_hates_anything_on_wheels_from_Germany)
    challenge some of the German car drivers to a real race, say Calais to
    Vienna in his noddy car ....

    
    Who said anything about being restricted to 1600 cc?
    
    I'd use an Andial 944, and why not use the Autobahns?

    
    Horses for courses.
    
    Mark (I'll take part if I can get my hands on a 175 mph race-tuned
    Marcos)

I assume the 1600 limit is so that the opposition are driving a car comparable
to Derek's ;-)

Scott

From a few back (Unipart team)

>>    Me! Now who was the other little known driver who drove those things?


No, I don't remember (apart from the fact that he was British) - but I'd know
it if I heard it :-)

Steve
    
    

    Anyone see the 'Top Gear Special' on Saturday night ?
    
    titled			The Driven Man
    
    could have been titled	'Rowan Atkinson on Cars'
    
    Plenty in that programme to chat about...
    
    	Defensive driving
    
    	Offensive driving
    
    	Crash testing
    
    	'mobile' Police road-blocks
    
    	R5GTT racing (and crashing)
    
    	Cars as phallic symbols
    
    	Driver profiles against car types (Porsche, Range Rover, Sierra)
    
    Any comments...
    
    J.R.

Does anyone in Reading have "The Driven Man" on VHS video?

Could I please borrow it, as I only saw five minutes of the prog and would like
to see the rest.

Ta,

Scott

I missed it completely and would like to see it. So if someone has videoed
it, maybe I could borrow it next.

Steve
DECPark. DTN 830-3092.

PS. I can collect it in evenings from Basingstoke area.

    Simon Catlin of Drive and Survive, who did my driver training, was on
    there. 
    
    I like his style!
    
    Steve

All I can say is.....poor horses !

            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1317.0                      The Driven Man.                         1 reply
TASTY::JEFFERY "I shot the sherrif (and the deputy!)" 9 lines  11-DEC-1990 10:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone see the programme on Saturday Night "The Driven Man"

It went through Rowan Atkinson's obsession with cars, and had some quite
amusing bits on it about car driver types.

The best bit, was when they had the Renault 5 GT Turbos racing. It looked
really thrilling! I must go along to one of these races sometime!

I gather Rowan used to drive a R5GTT.

    
    But, as the saying goes, he's alright now...
            
    (Couldn't resist it)
    
    Bill

    
    
    Obviously a man who appreciates REALLY good cars.
    
    Mark :^)
    

    
    
    
    Re. 35
    
    No, I was a bit disappointed that he didn't mention his Lancia.
    
    He used to own an 8 valve and replaced it with a 16 valve.
    
    I've seen RA race Renault 5s on a number of occassions and he didn't
    usually crash! He was a fairly competent mid-field runner which is no
    disgrace in the very well supported championship.
    
    Mark

Does anyone still have a copy of 'The Driven Man' on VHS that I could
borrow please? I'm in DECpark and still keen to see it.

Steve.

    Happened to catch some of top gear last night.
    
    I had to laugh when the guy was confidently telling the official, at the
    scene of the mock accident on the race track, that a grey granada had 
    overtaken him at high speed when in fact it was...
    
    A maroon sierra cosworth !
    
    - Roy

    
    Try getting a passenger to ask you at random what the last car which 
    went past you in the opposite direction was. It's a revealing exercise,
    personally I don't think he did too bad, I can never tell a Sierra from
    a Granada from the front!
    
    Mark
    
    PS Love that Ferrari at the end!

	The most fun was watch for William Woolard's hair, would it fly off
	at any moment and reveal his bald patch?

	Still not a bad program and no wonder they didn't reveal the location
	of the shed with all of those wonderful cars in it.  Also, nice to
	see Tiff in a bit of racing, what a nice chap, what a wonderful job
	he's got...

	Dave

       

           What impressed me was when tiff drove that converted fiesta through
           the cones, holding (while putting his right foot down) the over steer....

           Can any of you match that ?

            craig




           

    
    Oh it was a converted Fiasco? I just assumed the rear suspension was 
    falling apart! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    Re .45
    
    Derek,
    
    Do you know how they get these things to replicate locking up on ice?
    
    Mark

    
    Re .47
    
    But how can you be sure you answer right? That bloke on TG was sure
    the car was a grey Granada.
    
    Mark

>I just
>    thought it was funny that rather than saying it was a "dark
coloured saloon
>    car", he was just so sure about the colour and model.

He was after points, hence if he was more specific he might get more points!!

Greg

    I went in for the Cellnet Competition - did my regional heat at
    Thruxton. Got a nice photie of "my" group with Jonathon, Damon Hill,
    Peter Cox, Derek Higgins and someone else!
    
    It was great fun although I didn't get through my heat. There were four
    tests : a driving test through cones (timed) ; the "skidcar" test ; an
    on-the-road IAM-type test and a circuit test (used as a one-way open
    road). I did quite well on the first two but got disappointing results
    on the latter two! 
    
    The Fiesta skidcar was quite remarkable - it felt EXACTLY like you were
    driving on sheet ice. I've never had a Fiesta oversteer like that
    before or since!!
    
    Colin

>>	a pugeot 205 and a VW golf.............but that's about it, the rest


Heather,
	Be nice if you could spell the names of the ones that you do know -
especially as you owned one for a while :-) !!

Steve

    
    Re .53
    
    It probably is for general driving purposes (I agree that many people 
    couldn't tell one car from another - When I play the game I can never
    tell one Japanese saloon from another! :^)), but in the case of the 
    exercise in the test on Top Gear (possible witness to, or cause of, 
    an accident) just telling the Police you saw a small van or a big car
    wouldn't be of much help.
    
    Sometimes it pays to have an unnatural interest in cars! :^)
    
    Mark

>>     <<< Note 525.57 by VANTEN::MITCHELLD "I dont brake for Westfields!" >>>
>>               -< What so unnatural about having an obsession? >-
    
    That's a whole new rathole Derek .. in fact there was a very
    interesting program on daytime TV about obsessions ..... digress
    digress
    
    I have to admit that I can't tell many cars apart - with all of them
    designed in wind-tunnels the shapes are soooo similar it's interiors
    etc that give away the manufacturer. In fact on Top Gear the tall
    gangly chap (Jeremy) was testing a new jap saloon and he was standing
    on a corner saying "There's a cavalier, and a cavalier and another
    cavalier - oh no that was the <mumble>"  ... you really couldn't tell
    the difference !!
    
    Jane

    Like all interests/hobbies/obsessions, if you are interested in
    something it goes a long way to identifying items relating to it.
    
    A friend of mine has been into aircraft since he was knee-high to an
    airfix kit. He can tell the manufacturer/model of any
    commercial/military plane that flys over. He never ceases to amase me.
    
    I would think that the majority of the readers of this conference are
    interested in cars and like me could identify most of the cars on the
    road. However Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Joe/Jane Public who just thinks of a car
    as a means of getting from A -> B, probably has no interest and
    consequently couldn't tell a Skoda from BMW.
    
    - Roy

>> the difference between a Skoda and a BMW

What difference?

    For all those interested, this starts back again next thursday (19
    sept) BBC2 8:30 pm.
    
    First proggy from Frankfurt motor show, including report on the MK3
    Golf.
    
    Richard

according to last months Performance Car tonights episode includes four
lamborghinis as tested by Clarkson

in the magazine he was racing away from the 'lights' in a Diablo against a 
Golf GTi... should be interesting.


...art

    
    The look on his face when he floored the accelerator in the Countach
    (sp?) was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time!
    
    Steve.
    

    Yep :^) , but he did us proud and did his utmost to grin nad bear it...
    lucky blighter !.
    
    Gary (Not a 19 year-old with an eyelash (?) for a moustache :-) )
    
    PS. I lurrve the Diablo, and once saw one in the flesh at a motor
    show... awesome stuff. May be my next trade in for the Escort :-)

    Yes, last nights was exceptional. when it came on my wife groaned.
    within minutes she was in stitches. Comments like
    "the diablo has windows you can see out of, usefull if you want to
    drive the car"
    
    And the range rover report:
    "It has the performance of the archbishop of cantebury in full regalia"
    
    Richard

    
    Pity they didn't compare the acceleration with something which WAS
    fast. After all, not many people really believe the 8v Golf is 
    fast anymore, do they!
    
    Comparing the Miura with the Countach showed how wrong Lamborghini (and
    Ferrari) have got their designs in more recent years. Fortunately the
    curvaceous Diablo is a step in the right direction (not a big one,
    but...). Funnily enough there was a Diablo at Thruxton last time I 
    was there on the Can'trememberwhich ICE stand.
    
    Unfortunately, unlike Honda's NSX, it wasn't available for sitting in!
    
    Mark

>>    was there on the Can'trememberwhich ICE stand.

Alpine probably.

There was a Diablo auctioned off at Blackbushe last week too.


...art_who_missed_TG :-(

    ALPINE, it was.
    
    Mark

    I like the one about: This is not the worst car I have ever driven,
    after all I have driven the Nissan Micra, but it is close to it.

    See Chris Goffey was at it again, this time droning on about air-bags.
    Does anyone have any experience of these, are they a "good idea' - yes
    I saw the head-on smash on Top Gear, but do they take up a lot of space
    in the wheel ?  If they are as good as Chris Gobbey says they are I
    might give them a go next time I order my car (In 3 years !) - *BUT* an
    this is the important thing - I'D LIKE A *CHOICE*, no matter how many
    lives the damn thing saves, it's my life and my NHS contributions etc.
    I mean, I always wear a helmet on a bike (even before they were
    compulsary I think) but the point is it should be MY decision.
    
    Oh dear, I don't know what came over me then, listening to that man
    always seems to do this to me, I'm sure he'll only be happy when the
    Brussels make V*lv*'s compulsary for everyone too.  :-)
    
    
    Stevie.

    
    Steve,
    
    It's probably worth discussing in Euro_Forum, but it's actually all
    us NI payers' NHS contribution, not just your own.
    
    Mark
    
    PS To sort of answer your questions, the Euro-bag equipped wheel looked
    no different (not noticeably anyway) to the normal Rover wheel (the
    wheel being one from a Metro or a 2 series I believe)

    My main concern with air-bags is what would happen if it went off by
    accident. They mentioned that there was a one in a million chance of
    this happening and demonstrated that you could still see over the top
    of the inflated air-bag. I was impressed. I hope that manufacturers
    start fitting them as standard asap.
    
    Roy

    Re .75
>>    ......I was impressed. I hope that manufacturers
>>    start fitting them as standard asap.
    
    Make that "No cost optional equipment" and I'll agree with you, I'll
    probably even specify one myself  - as I think I tried to say in my original
    note.
    
    Stevie

In Virginia recently, there was a head on collision where both cars were fitted
with air-bags and neither driver was wearing a seatbelt. Both of them walked
away.

Don't know how it works for sideways collisions though....

re .77;

you've hit it exactly; air bags are designed for people not wearing seat belts.

Since most (all?) or the EEC now has compulsory seat belt wearing, what's the
added value of air bags?

Or will it be like catalysts; we blindly follow the U.S., and ignore
local conditions?

Peter.

>>you've hit it exactly; air bags are designed for people not wearing seat belts.

really?

I've seen videos of crash test dummies wearing seatbelts, head-butting steering
wheel/dasboard.

Having a head-on collision at 70mph will certainly be different to one at 30mph
with regard to how much extra force the seatbelts will have to cope with.


...art

    
    Re .80
    
    You would have seen those very scenes if you'd watched TG too.
    
    The point is that even with a seatbelt, the head (face) can hit the
    steering wheel.
    
    Mark

    Re. Airbags
    
    Since they will help arrest your head/body in travelling forward,
    they can avoid you head-butting the steering wheel.  They could
    also reduce the bruising/strains and the like that the seatbelt
    will cause to your body...
    
    After all, if they only change the aesthetics of the steering
    wheel (and dash-top/glovebox), that seems a fair trade-off.
    
    J.R.
    
    PS anyone been watching the Friday-night prog. on motor racing ?

Two comments, both related:

In my time in America I drove a Jeep CJ7 with an airbag fitted.

On one occasion off road a slightly hard impact with the ground (definately not
the sort of thing I'd call an "accident") triggered the airbag.

1) I lost forward control since it was impossible/difficult to reach the 
controls over the flaming bag

2) the bag pushed me (despite my seat belt) against the soft door of the
vehicle and nearly out.

In my opinion this bag came close to killing me, and *never* in the time it 
was fitted helped save me from injury.

    The Euro version of the airbag is alot smaller than the USA one. so
    perhaps it's less dangerous for an accideal inflate.
    
    Greg

    
    Presumably, Ian, the suggested smaller Eurobag would improve both
    the problems you mentioned?
    
    Mark

Presumably it would help - I only I have experience of the US system... The Euro
bag looks good, but only experience will tell...

I've also heard stories ("urban legends" ?) of people suffering hearing loss
as a result of the air pressure increase in closed cabin (saloon/sedan) cars.

/. Ian .\

    Personally I'd prefer hearing loss to head loss.

    
    
    Anyone see the Equinox programme last night on "The lean burn engine"?
    
    The basic thesis of the programme was "Cats don't work well at low
    temperatures and that because of this, we should not be using this
    technology in Europe, but pushing instead for a lean burn engine."
    
    
    They showed emission graphs at different external temperatures.
    At 25 deg, the cat works well, but at 8 deg the cat is nothing
    like as efficient, leading to higher CO emissions and even higher
    CO2 emissions. They also stated that CAT equipped cars use 10%
    more fuel than not CAT equipped cars. These views seemed to be
    widely accepted by Rover,PSA and other independent 'experts'.
        
    The EEC are responsible for the forced introduction of CATS to 
    Europe. Their legislation says, in essence, "You must fit a CAT
    and achieve these emission levels and we will test the engines
    you produce for emissions at 25 deg". 
    
    Because of this EEC legislation, little development is going on
    into lean burn technology, since lean burn and cats can't be used
    side by side.
    

    Richard.

    
    How does the external temperature affect the efficiency of something
    which has very hot exhaust gasses flowing through it?
    
    Mark

    Re .88
    
        Even more restricting, they mentioned that the EC is proposing that
    any car that uses an oxygen sensor must have the sensor set such that
    the fuel/air ratio is at a specific level to ensure that catalysts work
    at their peak efficiency.
    	Unfortunately, lean-burn requires oxygen sensors set at a (much
    leaner) range well outside the proposed limits and as such will be
    illegal!
    

    
    Would these be the same 'test circuits' that produce such hillarious
    fuel consumption figures?
    
    While not suggesting for one minute that a lean burn engine wouldn't
    be a good idea (it certainly isn't a new one), I'm more than slightly 
    suprised at the zeal with which you seem to be taking statistics for 
    granted! No doubt the people involved in this programme were developing 
    a lean-burn engine. A bit like asking Neil Kinnock for facts on the 
    Tory government's economical record! :^)
    
    Mark

Ok, lets dig this rat-hole deeper ...

I would never take statistics and test figures blindly, but they do make you
think.

A cat costs an awful lot of money, and contains some very expensive elements.
These cost a lot to produce, and you can bet that their price will increase
even more when ALL cars MUST use a cat. And does anyone know how much pollution
the "cat factories" produce"?

This whole argument is that the EC regulations are based on figures for the US
market, where 5-liter cars are the norm, the speed limit is 55-mph, people
drive much further to work and the average air temperature is higher.

Fings is different over here hey!

The EC regulations state that if you have an oxygen sensor in your engine
(exhaust), then you gotta have a cat - or else. Its a bit like saying "all
red cars must run unleaded", and has nothing to do with the real issues.

mb

    
    I would have thought that the outside temperature affects the cat
    a lot. If the cat was bolted straight onto the exhaust manifold
    the outside temp wouldn't matter, but they're stuck below the car
    with a huge amount of air passing over them. 
    
    Anyway, that wasn't really my main point. I was really making the
    point that the EEC are/were stupid to enact legislation that only
    allows one method of obeying that legislation.
    
    It seems crazy to me that with little thought the EEC invests millions
    into research into the greenhouse effect, while at the same time
    passing legislation that will increase the amount of fuel burned
    by 10%  thereby increaing the CO2 outputs by at least that figure.
    The programme also made the point that 10% more fuel burned means
    10% more fuel delivered and 10% more fuel refined.
    
    Richard.

    

    Re .97
    
    Well, my Renault never did 140 mph, so your's must be faster than mine
    was! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    Damn, you've blown my cover. 
    
    Looks like I'll have to move into lean-burn mines instead! :^)
    
    Mark

	Air bags are obviously going to be this seasons thing on TG (last 
	year it was ABS).  Whilst I can see that safety standards are a good
	thing, they are a) boring and b) cannot compensate for mis-functioning
	grey cells between the ears.  Still, I really like Jeremy

    > b) cannot compensate for mis-functioning grey cells between the ears.
    
    
    Yeh but if it was someone elses grey cells, then If they crashed into
    me, I'd like an air bag to SAVE my grey cells.
    
    
    
    Greg

Here in the US, all (petrol-engined) cars are cat-equipped and, in many parts
of the country, must pass a yearly emissions test. My yearly test happens 
to be in early February, when the temperatures here are considerably lower 
than 8 degrees C (sometimes closer to 8 degrees F). After a 15-minute drive
from cold, starting from below-freezing temperatures, on both occasions the 
car has passed a test that is far, far stricter than the proposed UK 
emissions test.

UK temperatures aren't usually below freezing for many days of the year, and 
it's these days that the cat would be most inefficient.

Cars with cats may still pollute more significantly from a cold start, but 
it doesn't take that long even from a below-freezing start to get them warmed 
up sufficently to make them pass emissions testing.

John

It appears that the EC regulations say that if an emission control system
used an oxygen sensor then the fuel-air mixture must be stochiometric -
i.e. the fuel-air ratio must be such that the amount of oxygen in the air 
is exactly that needed to fully burn the fuel.

In my opinion this is idiocy.  Provided that the exhaust emissions comply 
with the required limits the regulations have no business at all saying how 
these limits should be reached.

One point that was clear was that leaner-burn engines produce higher NOx
emissions that engines with a catalytic converter.  NOx is probably the 
most harmful pollutant that is produced.

As far as using more fuel goes, I would argue that a car that does 40 mpg
with a catalytic converter is definitely better than one that does 39 mpg 
without a converter.  Over the last several years the average fuel economy 
of new cars has increased significantly.

jb

    Clarkson after test driving the new RS 2000 -
    
    "My only advice to Ford... COME ON !!"

    
    Well ACTION may be a bit strong, but it was moving around and driving 
    back and fro.
    
    Mark

    Could you hear the noise from the back end ? engine AND transmission
    
    or ... should I say:  could you hear anything OTHER than the noise of 
    the above ?
    
    I have seen films where they had philarmonic music together with sports
    cars shots ... very frustrating.
    
    The MIURA engine makes a beautiful wild roar (when not covered by the 
    noise of the gearbox/final drive)
               

    Re. Miura
    
    Performance CAR, October issue has a write-up of the filming of
    the Top Gear article (by Jeremy Clarkson)
    
    He really hated the Countach... worth reading.
    
    J.R.

    Re .110,
    	I've video'd the feature, and yes, you can hear the engine.

Anyone else see the BBC Motorfair programme yesterday ?

Some really yummy sports cars reviewed.

I liked that yellow M2000 prototype best I think :-)

E-Type and Miura in the same film - has to be "The Italian job"?

As I remember it, the Miura, 2 E-types, an Aston Martin and 3 minis were pushed
over cliffs. And they had to re-shoot the Aston because the main camera broke
down whilst shooting...

    
    	Also the reg of the E-Type is CRY 826... a nice touch. The Mazzer
    gets trashed at the beginning of the film, then the minis, then the
    van, then the E-Types and the Aston...

    What a load of bovine excrement about the BMW 5-series...
    
    At least the Jersey hillclimb looked fun.
    
    J.R.

    
    Re .121
    
    Here, here. Even BMW don't sell 'em that hard! 
    
    Re the hillclimb. I once visited Jersey for a weekend and had an
    unhappy  (almost anyway) experience going down that road in a 
    rented Renault Fuego (possibly the nastiest car I've ever driven -
    challenged only by the new style Celica).
    
    Mark

    
    Is that slimy, BMW pushing salesman going to be the new presenter of 
    TG for the foreseeable future?
    
    Is it just me or does he really give the 'profession' a bad name?
    
    Give him the boot and bring back Chris Goffey! 
    
    Mark

>>    Give him the boot and bring back Chris Goffey! 
    
    Give lead-foot Tiff a program all on his own !
    
    J.R.

    
    Re .124
    
    Now, that, I wouldn't argue with!
    
    Mark

re.123:

Hope not, fancy getting a petition together?

/Dave.

    Saw the programme last night (not a video as in the topic heading).
    
    Donchaluvthemdiesels ! 
    
    Vauxhall/Isuzu thing on the show last night (*not* a Jeep).
    
    I agree that it will probably be a sales success, but only in its
    'pose value', not any off-road capabilities it may have.
    
    As for that gimp Clarkson, I thought Top Gear always tried to
    present a sensible approach to motoring - so he goes and gets
    stuck in some mud and says "I didn't read the handout" that came
    with the vehicle, on how to drive sensibly off-road...
    
    *flaming on now*
    
    Other main topic was 'joy-riding', although there's not a lot of
    joy involved in this particular pastime.  One project that has
    been tried is to get the offenders to attend some place where
    they get to build a 'stock car' and then race it around an oval.
    Apparently, the persons who get to do this are much less likely
    to go out nicking other peoples cars.  I reckon they would miss
    the poke of a Ford Cossie, compared to the Escort/Cortina like
    junk they drive on the track.  What P's me off is that they get
    to join in this fun enterprise because they have gone and taken
    a number of other peoples cars 'for the crack'.  Why should they
    get this fun, when law-abiding youngsters aren't given the
    chance to partake of motorsport (of a fashion) for free ?
    
    This idea was adopted on some housing estate, where the road
    apparently forms a figure-of-eight just ideal for the joyriders.
    I'd put a wall in the middle of each bend, so you'd have a crossroads
    with four dead-ends coming off of it.  The residents decided to set
    up a scheme where anyone interested (offenders or not) could come
    along to the workshop that they set up and make their own 'racers'.
    At least this was providing what [some] people wanted, to try and
    avoid the chance that they'll go and nick someones car instead.
    A reasonable idea, but only implemented in fear of the consequences
    of not doing so.
    
    *flame off now, I think*
    
    J.R.

    
    I haven't seen TG yet (will be videoed this afternoon), but the
    Frontera was reveiwed in Off Road magazine (I think) recently and
    they (presumably who know how to drive in mud) were impressed by the
    car's off-road ability, allowing for the fact that it's primarily aimed
    at the Shogun/Suzuki market rather than the Land Rover one.
    
    Let's face it, the Ranchero was probably good enough for 99% of people
    who drive these things! :^)
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    What time is it on this afternoon?
    
    TA, Craig.

    
    5.30 (I HOPE!).
    
    Mark

    
    I don't know who the stupid bitch was who was presenting the "joy-
    riding" section, but the less I see of her the better I'll be
    pleased. 
    
    As the presenter was so busy creaming herself about what a good idea 
    this stock car project was she only just managed to mention that of
    those who attend this 'project' 40% re-offend! A spectacular success
    I'd say. The overall rate is only 60%.

    Richard.

>    I don't know who the stupid bitch was who was presenting the "joy-
>    riding" section, but the less I see of her the better I'll be
>    pleased. 
    
    I know what you mean and I found her voice and mannerisms even more
    irritating than Chris Gobbey, I think her name's Janet Trewin.  On the
    other hand after a couple of minutes I was able to ignore this aspect
    of the report and concentrate on what she had to say, and I
    (eventually) found it interesting and enlightening.  The point seemed to
    be which does society find more important, stopping/reducing so-called
    "Joy-riding" or punishing offenders because it makes "us" (the group
    from whom the victims come) feel better.  I'm not even sure I can make
    my mind up on this, perhaps a combination of the two - Break their legs
    or chop their hands off and then let them go on one of these schemes
    seems very reasonable to me :-) :-)
    
    I would have been interested in the governments views on the fact that
    car-crime is less in (continental) Europe despite cars still being
    fitted with the same locks etc as in Britain.  This would seem to
    suggest that although it wouldn't hurt to fit better locks etc. to cars
    the government should accept some of the responsibilty.
    
    
    .Stevie.

>>    Why? Is the government stealing the cars??? Society says these buggers
>>    should behave themselves, that's you, me and the rest of 'em. We
>>    may have some responsibility to make sure they do!
  
    
    Who's this "we" ??  Under the rules that this society lives by the only
    positive thing "we" are allowed to do is maintain greater vigilance and
    treat the symptons by better security devices, we aren't (unfortunately
    some may say) allowed to take direct action such as stringing the
    b*&&ers up or knee-capping them.  We elect governments to make laws,
    pay police forces to catch transgressors and expect the judiciary to
    punish the guilty.  Perhaps a better word than Government in my
    previous reply might have been "Establishment".  Perhaps you have a 
    better idea how "we" can legally prevent "joy-riding" rather than 
    turning cars into fortresses ?  I don't think I'm disagreeing with you
    though, it's just I'm stuck for ideas how to tackle this problem.
    Being a pragmatist, if these "schemes" have a better success rate than
    Prison (etc.) then perhaps thats the way to go - despite a large "gut
    feeling" I've got that it looks very much like "rewarding" the miscreants.
    On an emotional level giving them a good hiding would make would make a
    LOT of people feel better even if it didn't prevent re-offending.
    [  :-) * 0.5  ]  i.e. only half joking.
    
    Stevie
    
    

Re: a few back.

While the so-called "joyriders" who end up on these schemes have what seems
to be an appallingly high rate of re-offending, I have heard that those who
are simply fined or jailed re-offend even more.

I read the other day that something like 50% of all crime is committed by
under 18s. 

jb

    
    re: .135
        now who says that we can't string these b*^^$rs up ??
      the laws say that that it is an offence and you will be prosecuted
    for such actions, but I don't think it states that you CAN'T do it...
    
       Alan
    

	I thought that the program made a good point about the parents of the
	offenders - where did they think their offspring were at 2 in the 
	morning?  Society falls apart when you require one policeman per
	member of the population; it is all of our responsibilities to keep
	the laws.  Democracy is a strange thing, we elect governments to 
	represent our views; they then pass laws.  If we don't like it, then
	we shouldn't vote for them.

	Dave

    Surely you're not suggesting that parents should be responsible for the
    behaviour of their offspring?
    
    Laurie.

	Well, yes I am.  When my 3.5 year old is out and about, then I get
	blamed if she treats the settee as a trampoline, so why shouldn't the
	principle work until they're old enough to be "responsible" in the
	eyes of the law and punishable?  Until the law can punish/reform/
	rehabilitate then who should be responsible?

	Dave

	Actually, the program also showed one mother of an ex-joyrider (he
	died in an accident), who hadn't known that he was a nicker of other's
	cars until he died.  So maybe this is not so good a point.

>	the laws.  Democracy is a strange thing, we elect governments to 
>	represent our views; they then pass laws.  If we don't like it, then
>	we shouldn't vote for them.

So, what about those laws that were passed long before any of us were born, are
obviously out of date, and the system doesn't have a very good method of 
repealing laws....apparently you can't repeal a law just because it's out of
date...

	There's a rolling review by the Law Commission specifically trawling
	for out of date laws; these are then repealled by act of parliament.

	I don't want to rat-hole into a debate on Democracy; personally, 
	though I cannot think of a better system, this one over-reacts to some
	things and under-reacts to others.  The Dangerous Dogs act is a good
	example of over-reacting; there are other problems that could be solved
	by legislation that never get time for debate, let alone law passing.
	Also, as we all know, passing a law doesn't neccessarily make it 
	happen,

	Dave

	PS. I'll see you in Tescos on Sunday after speeding down the M4...

    
    Well what do you know? The braking distances in the Highway code are
    100% inaccurate! In the tests carried out by Top Gear with a fairly
    ordinary saloon (Rover 216/220 Gti) they achieved 0 mph from 60 mph in
    half the distance stated in the Highway Code.
    
    Now, there's nothing wrong with allowing greater distance than
    neccesary to stop in, but surely there's little credibility in a
    publication which clearly bases braking distances on an all-drum braked
    system! If the Highway Code is so inaccurate in this area, what else 
    needs a radical overhaul?
    
    Mark
    
    PS Fortunately we were spared the oozing Quentin this week!

	Yes, I was intriqued by the braking distances section of the program.
	More interesting was that they didn't try ABS in the tests.

	The best part had to be the section that asked "when do you start
	braking to avoid hitting x" where x was a car and, at another time,
	a person.  Most of them allowed too little space.  What was also
	striking was how much *worse* the lorry was than the cars - and there
	are lorries that travel far closer than I would ever dare to the
	vehicle in front.

	It seems to me that the 2s rule has a lot going for it as has 
	understanding what your car can do.

	Dave

    
    What did you find interesting in that they didn't use the ABS? I guess
    that was to reflect that MOST cars still don't have ABS. In fact at the
    end when they showed the graphs, they DID show the distances WITH ABS
    and in all cases it was slightly better than without.
    
    I agree that the 'how far away will the person be safe' exercise was
    interesting. You could see immediately that some of the guesses were
    hopeless, but I wonder how accurate my guess would have been.
    
    I found myself thinking about braking distances and whether I could
    stop in a gap more than usual this morning, which can be no bad thing.
    
    Mark

    Two points:
    
    If it was 100% wrong then it ought to be 60 - 0 mph in 0 distance,
    shurely they meant either reality was 50% of HC, or HC was 200% of
    reality?.
    
    Second, they quoted (in the order on screen) 
    
    good tyres in dry 		|--------------------50%
    good tyres in wet (ABS)	|------------------------------app 60-70%
    good tyres in wet (no ABS)	|----------------------------------app 80%
    Highway code		|----------------------------------------80yds
    
    All % are of HC value.
    
    Richard

    
    Depends how you see it.
    
    If the actual distance was 40 metres and the HC was 80 metres then the
    HC was inaccurate by 100% of the actual distance. This is what I meant
    and Top Gear found.
    
    Mark

    RE .144
    
    Ah yes Mark, but the Highway Code quotes minimum stopping distances...
    
    If your car can do better than this minimum then all's well and good. 
    
    Huw.

    
    Huw,
    
    Certainly it isn't wise to drive right on the car's braking limit,
    but when the distances listed in the Highway Code are SO far out, you
    begin to doubt it's credibility in many areas? It's a bit like the
    push-pull method of steering, which hardly anyone supports anymore, but
    is still (I believe) required to pass the driving test.
    
    I'm not suggesting everyone ignore the stopping distance (actually the
    Top Gear test had one failing in that the braking point was fixed and
    so no factor was built in to allow for thinking distance), but
    shouldn't the Highway Code be bought up to date to reflect the reality
    of driving in the 90s? If it is to serve any purpose other than a
    'learn to drive and then forget' guide it should be realistic.
    
    Mark

    Apparently there's a new updated edition of the Highway Code due out
    sometime this year.  I guess we'll have to wait and see if the braking
    distances chart will have been modified.
    
    Huw.

	Doesn't the HC stopping distances also include reaction time?

	Maybe the driver in the tests had above average response time, 
	knowing they were going through the test would have meant they
	were ready to break.

	Heather

    	The point is the driver in the tests had a reponse time of zero.
    	He knew exactly when to brake - a predetermined mark.
    
    	Ian.

    Good point Ian,
    
    
    	There's a lot to be said for leaving room for error. It's a shame
    that folks on the M3 don't do that. In the 3 year's I travelled along
    that stretch of road from sunbury to basingstoke, I saw more rear end
    shunts that I care to remember. 
    
    	Garry
    

    NEW cars may be able to brake in 50% of Highway Code distances.....
    
    But I am quite sure that others can't.
    
    My wifes mini - well maintained, good brakes, good tyres, but 8 years
    old - always frightens me on how slow it is to stop compared to my
    new-ish company car.

	RE .150

	Mark,
		What's wrong with the Push-Pull method of steering?
	
	You'd need to display a safe and accurate method of steering
	to pass an advanced driving test. Why not apply the same to
	the DOT test.

	Graham

    
    Well I don't want to start a religious war, but even the Police
    no longer recommend push-pull. I'm not sure why, but it's a slow
    method of steering which doesn't help in an emergency.
    
    Is push-pull required in advanced driving tests?
    
    Mark
    

	I wouldn't want this to be thought of as a religious thing
	either. I just find its work, and works well.

	I don't know where you got the idea that the police don't
	use the method. The last police driving instructor that sat
	next to me in a car told be how to improve the way I was
	using the method. This he said he had developed from personal
	experience.

	Graham

    
    Umm. Well I don't know any policemen. I was baseing my comments on 
    an interview I saw on Television a couple of years ago, in which 
    a policeman was saying that they no longer used, or recommended (I
    can't recall exactly which) the push-pull method.
    
    It doesn't really matter, I guess, anymore than whether you leave 
    40 yards or 80 yards (as long as you CAN stop in the gap). I used 
    it as an example of the way thinking on driving had adapted, but
    from what you say, I may have used a poor example.
    
    I was told that the push-pull method originated from the time when no
    cars had self centreing steering. Is that true?
    
    Mark

Concerning Top Gear last night....

I thought that when you do an emergency stop you should try not to skid.
(ie re apply the brakes when the wheels lock.)
In every test last night they skidded to a stop every time, surely this made
the stopping distances inaccurate ?

Matt. 

    
    I guess they'd have had a great deal of trouble consistently cadance
    braking to the same degree.
    
    Mark

Nope.  An emergency stop is clutch and brake to the floor until you stop.

Anything else is controlled braking.

    They also disconnected the rear brakes for "safer and more controlled
    braking"
    
    Anyone else think Top Gear should be on longer. The test of the Xr3i vs
    Citreon Volcane vs Golf GTI was ludicrous. One sentence about the
    volcane isn't really a detailed road test, from which to base a buying
    decision!
    
    Greg

I was a bit annoyed that the test of the GTI, Nissan Sunny and Volcane was
much shorter than it needed to be. A group test would have been more
appropriate. I would have preferred more of that, than the stuff on Mustangs.

It seemed a strange way of testing, driving at 80mph, and yanking the
steering wheel! However, it did show that the Golf was much more composed
under these conditions. That Chris Goffey was being pretty pompous about it.

Must try that on the M3 sometime! ;-)

When I was taught the emergency stop, I was told to put the clutch in when
the car is nearly stopped. I imagine that this allows for engine braking,
and that given that the engine is still trying to turn the wheels, it helps
stop the car skidding. Sort of a natural ABS. I've not tested the theory
out (bit tricky really!)

Mark.

Re: .160

> In every test last night they skidded to a stop every time, surely this made
> the stopping distances inaccurate ?

Matt, thats the Rover for you ... you can't help but skid when braking!

But poor brakes are an inbuilt feature to stop buses from running into the
back of you, know what i mean  ;-) ,-)

mb

RE:                     <<< Note 525.162 by MAJORS::ALFORD >>>

>> An emergency stop is clutch and brake to the floor until you stop.

Hope that you're not behind me when I have to make an emergency stop because
I'm going to pull up in a considerably shorter distance than you!

    Cadence braking is to allow you to steer - it is slower to stop.
    
    The quickest method of stopping is to lock all four wheels (except,
    perhaps, in snow)
    
    This was told to me by 'my friend' Tiff when on a Driving Day at
    Thruxton, where he taught me cadence breaking (and how to drive round
    Thruxton).
    
    Tony (the wimp) Orchard.

    
    Sorry Tony,
    
    But to say that Cadence braking is _always_ slower is just plain wrong!
    
    On slippery roads, cadence braking will stop you quicker (Hence the 
    result which showed the ABS equipped car to have stopped shorter than
    the non-ABS model). On a perfectly dry road, lock and skid may be best,
    but it's not always true.
    
    Mark

    
    Wet/dry is only one set of variables that describe friction .. the less
    friction available, the less likely "everything locked" will help.
    
    Colin (who discovered this over 20 years ago whilst vanishing over a
           ditch during a rally with everything locked up approaching a 
           perfectly dry, but gravel covered, bend...)
    

>>         <<< Note 525.167 by NEWOA::ORCHARD_T "Born to be huggable" >>>
>>                         -< Jane is right (this time) >-

>>    Cadence braking is to allow you to steer - it is slower to stop.
    
I wasn't talking about cadence breaking. In an emergency stop, you dip the
clutch just before you come to a standstill (not when you first hit the
brakes). Engine braking allows you to stop in a shorter distance than if you 
were braking whilst free-wheeling.

    
    re: .170
    
    > Engine braking allows you to stop in a shorter distance than if you 
    > were braking whilst free-wheeling.
    
    
    How??
    
    If your brakes are capable of locking the (driven) wheels under the 
    local road conditions (and at acceptable pedal force), then engine
    braking cannot add ANY stopping power. At best it may reduce pedal
    force and/or brake heating.
    
    The most powerful brakes I have ever had on a car were Drums ALL ROUND.
    
    That was on an Alfa Romeo Guilietta Sprint c.1960, which has MASSIVE
    alloy finned drums about 12" dia. by 2" wide in front and 10" dia. by
    1.5" wide at the back.
    Even SLIGHTLY over-enthusiatic braking could lock all four wheels on a
    good dry surface at > 70MPH. (OK tyres were not as good then).
    Of course those brakes were designed for rapid descent of Italian 
    mountains, but there was NEVER any sign of fade (and very little wear).
    
    Mike H.
    

    
    Re: 166
    
    I made no comment as to the effectiveness of stopping in that manner.
    If you stop quicker, then you are obviously using some form of
    controlled braking, or have ABS.
    
    I also did not say that is the method I used.  I use a form of
    controlled braking when needing to stop fast, so your comment was
    facetious to say the least.
    
    All I gave was the correct interpretation of an "Emergency Stop".
    
    
    
    You, as usual are adding a large number of words to the ones I actually
    wrote.

RE: -.1.

Facetious? Me? ;-)

You are taught in driving school to dip the clutch at the end of the stop -
that is the standard technique. I fail to see how "as usual" I am adding a
large number number of words to what you actually wrote?! 

I practised this technique with my instructor (he was very unhappy with my 
emergency stops) and the difference was marked - better steering, less
skidding - which led to a shorter stopping distance.

I've practised this since in my VW Transporter (couple of tons plus) - I assure
you that it makes a big difference. As -.2 points out in reduces brake pressure
- my bus takes a LOT of pedal pressure before she starts to respond.

Steve

    
    > You are taught in driving school to dip the clutch at the end of the
    > stop -
    
    You are assuming again. :-)
    
    
    No I wasn't.  I was taught as I described.   My driving instructor was
    an ex-police driving instructor.
    
    I was also taught skid control at the Andover skid pan.   It is there
    that the definitions of different types of stopping where defined for
    me in very clear detail, as well as having the opportunity to practice.
    
    It is also there that it was explained why delaying depressing the
    clutch was not a sensible thing to do.
    
    Maybe that is where we differ.   Quality of instructor.

    
    > I am adding a
    > large number number of words to what you actually wrote?!
    
    
    how else did you come up with your response then ?
    
    :-)

Well actually I was taught this technique by all SEVEN driving instructors that
I failed with - and at least one of them lived in a shoe box in the middle of
the road!

    
    Pah, you had easy, Steve.
    
    Now when I were a lad....
    
    
    Mark

    
    re: .178
    
    huh ?
    
    Some parts of the army ski *VERY* well...especially the arctic mob...

    
    Re: .176
    
    
    I passed first time....what does that say about my instructor ?

re.180:

or your examiner?

/Dave :-)

    
    Sounds like he should've got a Nobel prize for services to humanity!
    :^)
    
    Mark (Who's seen Jane drive!)

    
    	I almost got to see Jane drive her GTE.(as i was thinking of buying
    it)   I think i got off quite lucky phhhhhheeewwwww.
    
    	Andy
    P.s only joking J.
    
    P.P.s I passed first time with the A.A. expensive but worth it.
    

    Getting BACK to top-gear....
    
    It annoyed me the other week (dunno which one) to hear them perpetuate
    the malpropism of colour-coded bumpers.
    
    Colour CODING means the colour is a CODE, i.e. like crisp packets or
    fuses.
    
    If the bumpers are the same colour as the car, that's called
    colour-KEYING. as in colour keyed bumpers and mirrors.
    
    Whew, glad that's off my chest.
    
    Richard

    
    > Sounds like he should've got a Nobel prize for services to
    > humanity!
    
    
    He had to pass me...I didn't do anything wrong, and knew every page of
    his highway code flip book :-)

    
    A friend? (honest) wants to buy a small Japanese car. No idea of what it
    is but saw it on Top Gear last week (Guess the Sex, I don't like that
    car it's green and I want a red one).
    
    Can anybody help and tell me what model the Honda (I think) was?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Chris
    

>>    Can anybody help and tell me what model the Honda (I think) was?
    
    Possibly the Honda 'Beat', has been in CAR magazine in past months.
    
>>    car it's green and I want a red one).
    
    but the Beat was yellow (a two-seater convertible).  Was that it ?
    
    J.R.

    
    A Honda Beat, I believe. They're not officially sold in Europe (or the
    States, I think), but you _may_ be able to get one through one of the
    specialist car importers (Check the glossies, or even MN sometimes).
    There's one in particular who specialises in Japanese cars.
    
    I don't know the legality of these microcars in Europe, though and
    expect insurance (with non-available, exotic parts and small size/great
    acceleration) to be High (with a capital Extortionate! :^)).
    
    Mark

    
    Thanks again. That's the one.
    
    Reference to colour was not actual merely referring to the principal that
    the fairer sex sometimes use when choosing a car :-).
    
    Chris.
    

    
    Are all those cars in tonight's programme? The Radi-oti-mees only
    mentions the Viper.
    
    Mark

	Ok, there I was chuckling away at Jeremy Clarkson making a review
	about a totally boring car look interesting and what pops up?
	Not only a 1957 Standard Ensign, but one in the colours my dad
	had (two tone cream and green).  Thrilled or what?  Suddenly, there
	I was, 5 years old in the back with my older sister and new baby
	sister, it was the middle of the night and we were on holiday on the
	way to Land's End...

	Dave

    
    I missed the start of Top Gear last night. How much was that Mercedes 
    they featured ?
    

    
    7 - 10 Grand and up.
    
    (But 500 quid a service and Quentin Slimeball didn't even allude to
    insurance!).
    
    Mark

                       
     >>   (But 500 quid a service and Quentin Slimeball didn't even allude to
     >>   insurance!).
     
    I think he said non-franchised servicing was about half the 500 charged 
    by franchised dealers, and you could stick it on a classic car insurance 
    for around 200 pounds. 
      

    
    I must've missed the insurance, but I wonder how much you'd knock off
    the value of an SL having serviced at a non-franchised garage? Come to
    think of it 200-300 pounds is not exactly small beer (and certainly not
    what a Ford or GM garage would charge to service a Sierra or Cavalier,
    as was stated!).
    
    Mark
    

    
	I like Mr Slimeballs reviews, though I feel sure he uses an alias
	for the program. When he did the MGB, a car about which I know 
	something, I couldn't really fault the details. He knows his
	stuff does Slimeball. The only qualms I have is his oft repeated
	'get a full service history bit' which is much overdone. In my
	experience main dealer service never reaches the standards that
	I managed when I used to do my own servicing, and is often notably
	sloppy. Furthermore Mr Slimeballs colleagues Messrs Sleazy, Bodgit
	and Bullshit are all well equiped with multifarious collections
	of rubber stamps, books for the stamping of and will always oblige
	in this department.

	Top Gear is a pretty good prog nowadays, when once it consisted
	of amazingly fascinating comparisons of twenty seven different
	types of child seat and seventeen fire extinguishers. Since those
	long past days there has been great progress made, particularly
	following the breakthrough of including discussions about cars
	into the program something which somehow eluded the old production
	team.

	More power to your elbow Mr Slimeball.

	-John

    The best thing about Top Gear is the black sexy car featured in the title
    sequence. lurvly....
    
    
    
    Paul C  (nothing like a bit of self admiration is there ?)

Isn't it a Porche 911 Turbo Flat Nose ?  One of the sexiest inCARnations
of that lengendary vehicle, although my personal fav' is a 936.

I miss William Woolard(sp?) I must say, but Clarkson & Wilson are pretty
good nonetheless.

mike.

the best bit in the titles is the rev counter revving!

Anyway, I reckon the Clarkson bit on the new Rover was good.

Quite appropriate going around that (soon to be) disused
coalmine, with all that patriotic music going on.

Mark (Who would nearly buy a Rover!)

    You obviously need enlightening...
    
    The incredable, svelt, sexy, sleek, stylish, smooth car in the titles
    is.....
    
    A Toyota Supra.

    
    RE-2  A Toyota Supra.
    
    
    RE-1 Nah!
    
    
    I think -2 was pulling your pilsner!
    

Pulling my pilsner ?

The bar-steward !

	I miss William Woolard too, that slight sense of danger
	everytime he took his gravity defying hair out in a breeze...

	Dave

    re -(.4.5.6)
    
    Honest.
    It IS a Supra. I've waxed mine often enough to recognize all the
    anlges. When the lights pop up, the molding is just like the Supra,
    the rear light cluster is just like a Supras. The front bonnet edge is
    stepped slightly, just like a ... well you know. The car has a its
    front indicator lights set in, sort of in a strip below the front
    bonnet edge and above the bumber, just like a ...
    
    Paul. (looking at one right now through the window).

    
    Re The Black Car.
    
    Damn. Looks like I'll have to watch Top Gear this week now, just to
    satisfy my curiosity! :^)
    
    Mark

    and the rev counter is from a 5 Turbo

    re .-1
    
    You mean a Turbo Charged shopping trolley with a flip-top dashboard..

    >>                  <<< Note 525.211 by CURRNT::CARSON >>>

    >>   re .-1
    
    >>  You mean a Turbo Charged shopping trolley with a flip-top dashboard..
    
    Only if you mean that sleek black thing is a tart boudoir on wheels!
    
    Mark

Paul, is your Supra a turbo ?


IF ANS .eqs. "Yes" 
  then 
    write sys$output "Lucky gyitt !"
   else
      write sys$output "Waste of wax ;^)"
END-IF

mike.

    .-1
    Sure is. In Red. Looks lurvely when its just been waxed. I waxed it at the
    weekend and what happens ? it bloody rains today. When I dont clean it
    its dry for days !!

    Paul
    
    Imagine how it would look with a really good set of alloys on it.  You
    would never sleep alone again !!!
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

    Bruce
    
    Whats your Celica like?
    Only I was 'round at my toyota dealer having a new splash tray
    fitted(!) last week and while I was test driving a new MR2-GT (very
    slow) the salesman was trying very hard to flog me a Carlos something
    or other Celica. 25 grand. Looked quite nice, sort of had flared
    nostrils on the bonnet (turbo inlet i think), but not as cosy as the
    MR2. Its a shame the MR2 doesn't have more ooomph.
    
    PC   :~|

    Paul
    
    The Celica is great. !!  It holds the road like brown stuff to a
    blanket.  Accelerates fantastically (hardly any turo lag) and it looks
    good.
    
    Basically it is the homologation rally car and as such is noisy and
    bumpy but terrific fun to drive.  Only complaint to date 2500 miles on
    clock.  The passenger seat squeaks constantly >>>
    
    
    Regards
    
    Bruce

    
    RE-1
    
    >> The passenger seat squeaks constanty.
    
    
    I suppose that depends who's in there with you ;-)
    
    	Andy......VROOOOOooommmmm...

    Bruce,
    
    	If you're in vicinity of SBP and have the time one lunch could you
    take us for a spin so I can compare it with me Supra ?
    
    
    Paul.   OOOOoooooo_____ :->

    
    Paul
    
    Will do, but only if you promise to wear polythene pants..
    
    Bruce
    
    Will negotiate on the price of his wheels....

    The only time I ever seen one of these look good is with carlos at the
    wheel...

    >> The only time I ever seen one of these look good is with carlos at the
    >> wheel...
    
    What? The measles-mobile! :^)
    
    Mark

    I trust you eagle eyed noters copped a load of the car in the titles of
    Top Gear last week. I Have to admit the Ferrari 512 was just a tad
    smarter though. Now I just wish they'd get rid of that stupid git Steve
    wotsisname. The one who reviewed the Honda CRX Cabrio. He's trying
    desperately to be witty like 'ole Clarkson and misses by a few a light
    years.
    
    Bruce...
    		Not that quick is it ? If it had Pseudo leather seats like
    		mine, one could just wipe it off ! 
               

    re: .-2
    
    As good as any car that has a passing resemblence to a partly run-
    over hedgehog can....

    Ok Shadders, I trust you religously tuned into TopGear last night.
    Apart from the usual dross they said that next week they'd be looking at 
    how to buy a second hand 164.  
    
    BTW  The new reno Safron, Safrane, Safari - what ever, looked good.
    
    
    PC   :*)
    

    
    The Safrane!
    
    			tres beau!
    
    	Andy!
    

    Re: .225
    
    
>    Ok Shadders, I trust you religously tuned into TopGear last night.
>    Apart from the usual dross they said that next week they'd be looking at 
>    how to buy a second hand 164.  
    
    Yes, Paul, I'll be watching to see all the pitfalls that I have already
    fallen into, laid bare. I'm sure I'll find rust everywhere they tell me
    to look out for it, oil leaks in all the right places etc.
    
>    BTW  The new reno Safron, Safrane, Safari - what ever, looked good.
    
    Yes it did. The Alfa 164 3.0 V6 Lusso is about the same price new, but
    doesn't have 4WD, seat memory, independent passenger/driver air con
    controls. Still it's an Alfa, not a Renault, so that must be worth a
    few grand ;^)
    
    Didn't think much of the coverage of the bike show - a few unusual
    models, and some really poor camera work when looking at the Harley
    (maybe it's cos. my telly's only got a coat hanger for an aerial).
    
    Sold your Supra yet Paul ?
    
    Shadders (hope this doesn't catch on !)

    Top Gear always seems to include an item on motorcycling as a sort of
    token. I mean, Chris Goffey in racing leathers, Oh dear !
    
    It would be great if the Beeb ran a weekly programme on 4 wheeled
    transport (Top Gear) and a seperate prog for Motorcycling.
    
    Roy

    
    >    Sold your Supra yet Paul ?
    
    Nope. Cant says that i'm trying very hard though. Having just coughed
    up #$%#$% quid for more insurance for a year, I'll hang on bit longer,
    beside, i've only 10 months left on the car loan :-(
    
    
    Paul.
    
    
    PS.
    
    	Ear, Shaddey, when do I get I ride in your Italian wizzmobile  :-)
    
        
    

    
    Well,after watching the program last night I had to add two new items
    to my xmas list.The Nissan Micra (only the 1.3 super s,I might add)and
    the Alfa 164(Which one you may ask,well one for my birthday (23rd
    dec)and two for xmas).
    
    		The reason I like the new Nissan is because:
    	1.cheap to insure.
    	2.looks a billion times better then the mk1.
    	3.The back looks like a smaller version of the sunny GTI-R.
    
    		The reason I like the the 164.
    	It's pretty obvious.
    
    	Andy..No i'm not a woman,and no I don't go shopping.
    
    

    I wouldn't give either garage space. Now the Jag...
    
    Laurie$ex_Jag_owner.

> Andy..No i'm not a woman,and no I don't go shopping.

Just an MCP, aye Andy?

Dave.

    
    Presumably Andy's mum does his shopping then? :^)
    
    Mark

    Ok Shadders, how much didya pay Quetin Slimeball ?

    Whilst the 164 is a nice car (gizza go shads) i cant believe how
    excited Quinton got over it. I reckon the crafty sod, being a car dealer
    himself, makes sure he's got a a load in of what evers coming up in
    the next Top Gear, then blatenly praises the alloys of it that week on
    the telly, then sits back as the punters are drawn to his forecourts
    where he 'just happens to have' some of the recently praised about
    cars. I just dont buy it.

    The Micra was ok, except for that CoMpLeTe pratt who was driving it.

    The Jag..... well, now thats a classic worth having.

    PC
    
    [I say we nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure]      
    

    .233,
    
    	That's right mummy does the shopping in her 850 volvo.
    
    				;-)
    
    	Not!
    
    			Andy..les enfant..

    A new 'j' reg one like he was driving is probably quite nice inside, ie
    when all the plastic trim still feels pretty tightly screwed together.
    But I he (quin..) reckoned on it lasting like Merc SL etc... Personally
    I'd think the Merc would comfortable outlive the the Italian Luxmobile.
    
    Any comment Shadders ?  you seem to be a quite of late. (not working I
    hope. (g))
    
    PC
    
    [A seminar on Time Travel will be held 2 weeks ago]

    Ahh. Shabbey returns...
    
    I'll give you 4,500 quid for it... :-}
    
    
    PC
    
    [ebius tagline. This is a moebius tagline. This is a mo ...]

    Well, what did you think of the format of last night's programme ?
    
    Maybe they should rename Top Gear to "The Jeremy Clarkson Show" :-)
    
    Roy
    

  Well, they must have replaced Top Gear with another travel show program,
  I thought I saw something about cars, but I'm not too sure.
  Anyone got slow forward on their video to see if I was right ??

I think the new series has been very disappointing so far. Last weeks Xantia review
was a waste of time. The Alaska highway and the off road stuff from last week
weren't about cars! And why doesn't Clarkeson wash that Cosworth?


	Ian

    Re .242-.244
    
    I think you're all being terribly unfair about Top Gear's new format.
    Afterall from last night's programme we learn't
    
    How to pan for gold.
    The sound man's gold ring was lost.
    Why the Alaska highway was built and how long it took.
    Clarkson washes his clothes by jumping into hot rivers.
    He can't pull a date, even when she sits on his knee.
    The scenery around the highway is specatcular and its all terribly remote.
    The new Lamborgini (I think that's what it was) looks like an oddly
    rounded Jaguar, and why they were showing it is beyond me seeing as I
    probably couldn't even afford to buy a front wheel even if I sold my
    house, contents, cats, wife and kid.
    The Canadians shoot videos of derelict lorries and have a wooden bridge.
    They also race each other on the gravel back roads and drive 700 hp
    cars with bald tires on mud circuits.
    All that was missing was a shot of a moose.
    
    And next week we have the exciting prospect of watching Mr Clarkson
    looking down on said highway from an aircraft. Thrilling stuff. Will he
    fall out of the plane, will it land on the correct lake, can I bear the
    suspense? Maybe he might even talk about the Jeep thingy he was driving 
    and the Ford what's it the camera crew were in.
    
    Oh, I think there was something about cars in the programme. A bit at
    the beginning about the Corsa. Problem is, I missed it as it was so
    brief.
    
    Anyone got the Beeb's phone number. I think I'd like to complain about
    the all new 'Top Gear (hardly a car in sight) Travel show.'
    
    Angus

	I thought it was Northern Exposure, I wondered why Fleischman 
	wasn't in it...

	Dave

    Well, I know that cars were barely mentioned, but I enjoyed it. I'd now
    rather like to travel said road, in a camper van, with the missus and
    ankle-biters. Fishing, and drinking, and looking. Better still, with
    "the lads".
    
    Laurie.

    I'll be watching it [Top Gear] next week though: the sight & _sound_ of
    a Lamborghini is too much to resist. Now doesn't Lamborghini - on its
    own - sound far better than Lamborghini Diablo or Lamborghini Miura ?.
    I'm nearly sure I saw a Jalpa in Dublin once; it was making all the
    noises.
    
    Mike

    
    I couldn't understand why Clarkson chose the Alaskan highway as the
    subject of the program; the Jeep's imminent debut in the UK struck
    me as lame reasoning. I'd have thought the Mille Miglia would provide
    more evocative motoring, and be of more interest to a European
    audience. Maybe I'm biased though - I intend to do that drive with a
    couple of friends this Summer, throwing in a Ferrari factory visit
    and a blast over Stelvio for good measure..
    
    William.

    What do you think of the idea discussed on TG a couple of weeks ago
    (I've just had chance to catch up) about allowing over/undertaking 
    on motorways in this country in much the same way as in the US.
    
    Like everybody else I have thought it rediculous that everybody queues
    up in the 'fast lane' when the other lanes are virtually empty.
    However, I think driving styles here are different  than the US and
    if it was allowed it would lead to lunatics weaving their through lanes
    and could be very dangerous.
    
    Roy

>    What do you think of the idea discussed on TG a couple of weeks ago
>    (I've just had chance to catch up) about allowing over/undertaking 
>    on motorways in this country in much the same way as in the US.

	I think it would be very dangerous, the defferentials in speed in the 
	US are not a great as here, and the lanes are wider.
	They also have less lorries-per-car.

	This gives much more time and room to avoid a mistake.

	I believe we will get many more accidents if the rules are changed

	Heather

I don't think so, but I do think that more (persistent) CLOCs should be 
prosecuted, it is they who cause the blockages, not the queues in the right 
lane.

	You should also note that it is *not* legal in 
	all states.  For example, it is illegal in 
	Massachusetts (I think that I got the spelling
	right there).  Mind you I've been "undertaking"
	in Mass for years...

	Dave

    I think it is legal in Massachusetts, but illegal in New Hampshire
    (except on three lane carriageways). It happens often in both states
    though.
    
    Andrew

	No, it's the other way round (Eugene).  I was told this
	by a resident of Mass...

	Dave

    What do you think of the idea discussed on TG a couple of weeks ago
    >(I've just had chance to catch up) about allowing over/undertaking 
    >on motorways in this country in much the same way as in the US.
    
    Please no... you wouldn't believe how many prangs, near-misses and
    sloppy driving I saw caused by this when I lived in Massachussetts 
    -- and all at speeds under 55mph too. I think Top Gear spent too long 
    on the West Coast to judge how this would work -- they should have spent 
    some time on the East Coast of the USA to see how it *doesn't* work.
    
    John 

    It works pretty well in Brussels. Illegal too, but that doesn't seem to
    matter.
    
    Laurie.

    re .256

    They should try it on the M62 between Leeds and Manchester, it varies
    between 3 and 4 lanes, but the amount of people that refuse to go into
    the inside lane is unbelievable - definitely the worst standard of
    driving I've seen in the UK.

    Paul
    
    (sorry for ratholing this topic Royston)

    >varies between 3 and 4 lanes
    
    Could that be like the M25 where the inside lane is usually a slip road? 
    
    
    

"A Rolls Royce with attitude" ... I like it :-)

    
    What a car!
    
    I sat down expecting to see a good 15 minutes on the Vantage,instead he
    twodled on about the wonderful american highways ,blah,blah,blah.
    
    	Rubbish!
    
    As someone has already suggested,it's no longer Top Gear,It's the
    Jeremey Clarkson show.
    
    
    	Sort it out!
    
    	Andy.
    P.S. if anyone wants more info on the Clarksons test drive,it's in one
    of the magazines this week. I think it's Autocar.
    

;-1

I think a letter to the BBC....It's the only Car prog. on TV...and we have 
to put up with this cheap travel ...chit chat....You ca't drive in Alaska
with the windows down...Great just what I wanted to know...

KR    

	Well, it makes a change from some nerd wittering on about
	how many suitcases it can get in the back.

	Dave

    
    RE.261
    
    	>>I think it's in Autocar
    
    I'll correct my self here,it's in performance car.
    
    	Andy.
    P.S it's not a bad article (no mention of Alaska,but a picture of it's
    boot).Though there is a decent picture of the Diablo and Vantage on the
    track mixing it.

    Since I don't get Performance Car...
    
    Would any reader care to post the last paragraph (the one I always read
    first) of the Vantage v Diablo test?
    
    

    
    RE-1. 
    
    	Hold your breath.
    
    
    Head on the difference between the two cars couldn't be more
    pronounced.The Diablo has a button nose and is small,almost
    prissy.Alongside,the Aston looks the hungriest animal in the jungle.It
    is vast.No it's bigger than that.If cars could have body language then
    you'd swear the Lambo looked frightened.Intimidated.
    	But the Diablo has a following and a reputation so that to the 
    average onlooker this was no contest.This was Arnold Schwarzenegger
    taking on Carl Lewis in a 100 metre sprint.
    	When the flag dropped,the peace and serenity of awinter morning in
    Northamptonshire was rent asunder as 20 pistons,80 valves and more than
    1000 horsepower exploded into life.Rising above the shriek of the Lambo
    motor and the bellow of the Aston was the sound of four gigantic rear
    tyres fighting for grip.
    	And they were off.The Aston bit first and eased out a lead,but at
    52mph,as the driver went for second,the raging bull used it's longer
    rev range to close.Into second and it was on cam straight away.
    	From no on in,it was a straight race.The Aston was a car's length
    ahead as the quarter mile posts flashed by,the gap was unchanged.The
    speed shot up past the ton,past one ten,and was going ballistic but
    still the shire horse was out in front.No-one who'd seen it could quite
    believe it.
    	Time and again,the two cars fought and time and again the Vantage
    won.If the Diablo is able to get from 0-60 in 4.2 seconds,then the
    Vantage can do it in four maybe less.This is no small acheivement for
    any car,but for a car that weighs two tons,it's nothing short of
    remarkable.
               J.Clarkson.(Top gear editor,producer,director,holday
    specialist,gold panner,tall person)
    
    	Was it good for you?
    
    Andy.
    
    printed without permission of Performance car magazine.1993.
    	     

    And the last 'few' paragraphs -
    
    
    	' If it was an animal, it would be an ox. If it was music, it would
    be a rendition of Nimrod by Nirvana. If it was food, it would be a
    24oz. steak. If it was a house it would be Blenheim Palace.
    
    	If it was a car it would be the meanest, most brutal son of a
    bitch I have ever driven. It would be,and is, the ultimate expression
    of a dying art.
    
    	Who needs 4 wheel drive? Who needs parking sensors or active
    aerodynamics ? Who needs tear-drop styling ?
    
    	Ladies and gentlemen, I give you, the most wonderful car in the
    world. The Aston Martin Vantage'
    
    Clarkson

    It is some car.
    
    My wife videod Top Gear for me and before I watched it her comment on
    the Vantage was
    " I've just seen the car that I would love to have. Small problem here
    unless I win the pools!! 8^)
    
    Some of her friends have also said the same thing - so it ain't just a
    macho beast, it has all round appeal.
    
    Now, I wonder what it would cost on the car scheme?....... 
    
    Malc

    
    Two quotes from Thursdays programme.
    
    1)Quinten Wilson.
    
    "We managed to get a quote for an 18 year old to drive a 205 GTi 1.9
    and we were told 6000 pounds."
    
    I got a quote for 4000 pounds,where did he get his quote from,the
    mafia?
    
    2)Jeremy Clarkson.
    
    "Hands up all those who thinks Quinten Wilson looks like Dracula."
    
    I do.
    
    Andy.
    

    
    >My aren't those Clssic cars hard to guess!
    
    This is just another manifestation of the BBC's recent tendency to turn
    genuine viewer-interest competitions into money-making events. It
    doesn't take many people ringing the 0891 number to pay for the prize,
    the rest is easy profit. That's why they make them so easy to get.
    
    See also: Film 93, Question of Sport...
    
    Trevor

    If you think TOP GEAR isn't up to much you should take a look at THE
    MOTOR SHOW, I think this is only seen in a few regions (I'm in Granada
    region).  This is sponsored by "Auto Express" and can't you just tell.
    It's very lightweight, consists of lots of reports but most seem to
    lack depth (or something).  It's fairly interesting viewing, the more
    car/bike programmes the better in my opinion, but I don't think they make 
    the best of their 40 minute slot.  
    I wouldn't treat it as a viable competitor to "The Clarkson Show" but
    perhaps it will keep them on their toes.  
    
    The funniest bit of the programme is were they show a well known vehicle,
    minus badges, just before the adverts and ask you to guess what it is,
    they then tell you after the break, I don't think even "Sun" readers
    would find it difficult !!
    
    Stevie.

	No, but I did see the film "Grand Prix" the other weekend and
	noticed Graham Hill with a walk on (plus a few words) part.
	Any other famous racing drivers in that?

	Dave

    
    What about that famous Pilot/bar-tender come racing car star.
    
    
    
    
    
    Tom Cruise.
    
    It was a true story wasn't it?     ;-)
    
    	Andy

    
    RE: Last nights coverage of porsche.
    
    
    
    
    Doesn't Clarkson over do it abit!
    
    		"The three digits 911 throw fear into the hearts of drivers
    	more so than the three digits 666,if this car had a name it would
    	be damion!"
    
    		He makes me laugh!
    
    Any thoughts on the 3.6 turbo driven by Tiff!
    
    
    	Andy.I'd-have-one-regardless-of-the-colour.

    Is the Turbo 3.6 four wheel drive? I lost the thread a bit. At one
    point they were saying the enthusiasts didn't like 4X4 (I'd go along
    with that) and then they were saying the new Turbo was the
    mother-of-all Porsches' - a real enthusiasts car. However I inferred it
    was 4X4?!
    
    Puzzled - but poor...
    
    Rupert

    When's the Top Gear repeat ?

    
    I think it's usually the day after on BBC at about 5 ish.
    
    Andy.
    

    Would someone be an absolute Dove bar and send me that Top Gear Porsche
    video ?.
    
    Michael Kane (yes...) @ DBO

Of course, you'll be seeking the permission of the BBC first...

Dave.

    Robert (or is it Wobert...), you're a star. I'll post it off Monday. 
    
    Thanks,
    M

    The school holidays are over, there a nip in the air, autumn is on it's
    way and......
    
    the Jeremy Clarkson Show is back!
    
    Thursday BBC2 8.30pm Top gear -new series.
    
    Huw.

    
    RE- Top Gear last night 9/9/
    
     A few points!
    
    1)The Corsa should have won the best small car.(I'm getting one next month
    so i'm not biased much!)
    
    2)I couldn't beleive how much Christian Schmids(sp?) insurance quote
    changed due to the fact that he hadn't been a U.K. resident all his life.
    
    3)What was a woman doing in a Ferrari?   ;-)
    
    Andy.
    
    When's the NEC motor show.??
    

    
    >> 3)What was a woman doing in a Ferrari?   ;-)
    
    Probably a better job than the guys!
    
    -Tony

    
    Re .291
    
    I don't know. Some of her comments had my wife in stitches! (She wasn't 
    SUPPOSED to be a stereotypical woman driver, was she?).
    
    Mark

    Well not exactly a video but has anyone read the new (well I think it's
    new) Top Gear magazine. What do you people think of it compared with
    the rest of the motoring press. I quite enjoyed it so there. Comments?
    
    Andy.

    
    I bought the first one (November's edition is now out),and thought it
    was a good read.Plenty to read for all,covering sports,family and
    boring cars.
    I'll be getting from now on!
    
    Andy.

These journalists obviously don't have enough to do!

My favourite is still Car Magazine.

Top Gear is a bit messy.

Mark.

Did anyone see that ITV car programme last night? The car
show or something like that. It's sponsored by Auto Express.
What a load of crap! The review of the small cars was
confusing as they weren't comparing like for like. They
had a Clio Williams against a cheap 306 and a couple
of Japanese 660cc cars. 

Top gear may have it's faults, but it beats that rubbish
last night hands down!

    
    errm... they weren't comparing a Clio Williams with a 306, it was
    a 106 Rallye 
    
    You're right about the content though, I mean who's going to buy an 
    Omega if you can have something decent for the same money???

But they were comparing a CLio Williams with a Daihatsu 
Mira weren't they?

I thought the girl presenter did about as good a job on 
that programme as she did when she did the weather on TVAM.

Absolutely,

I felt that the review was completely wasted. I'm interested in the Laguna, but felt that
the review didn't say anything, apart from patronise baby boomers.

Mark.

    You mean thorough reviews like in the days of William Woolard?
    
    TG has moved more mainstream, and has the viewing figures to prove it!
    
    Huw.

    For God's sake chaps!
    
    Who in their right mind really wants to buy a French car?
    
    :-)
    
    Clive  (Professional Euro-sceptic)

After having to make do with crappy motoring programs on Super channel
we recently got the BBC TV Worldservice and Top Gear. So far I have
really enjoyed TG. They actually review the cars and say
what they think about the cars rather than a bland review and comparison
to other comparable cars. It seems that the reviewers (the only one I
recognise is Tiff Needel) are car enthusiasts and thus a bland car like
the Laguna gets a well deserved slagging off.

/Paul.

>>>    For God's sake chaps!
    
>>>    Who in their right mind really wants to buy a French car?
    
>>>    :-)
    
>>>    Clive  (Professional Euro-sceptic)



	What would you prefer then?  Japanese bland-mobiles?  A "nice little
Bluebird?"   Perhaps you are a "Micra man?"

	Or maybe you prefer Belgian Vauxhalls?

				Malcolm. 8^)

Hi,

From the Top Gear review, I don't know if the Laguna was a bland car!

As far as I'm concerned, the looks are irrelevant. If the car handles
well and goes well, then it is good.

Mark.

    
    I think your appreciation of TG depends on what audience you think
    it's aimed at.  Fot lots of variety, some occasionally decent music,
    the odd decent witticism AND something to to talk about in the office
    the next morning (remember the Esprit vs Astramax challenge) it's hard
    to beat.
    
    
    If NBC Super Channel showed TG i'd be more than happy.  It would beat
    the hell out of Clinton Press conferences (i kid ye not - last nights
    was a 1 hour spectacular on Haiti and other topics).
    
          
    Nigel

    I have to defend the view of .305. Speaking personally I don't see it
    as prejudice, not wishing to buy a French car, rather a reasoned
    decision.
    Every time anyone buys a foreign product then they are exporting work
    and economic advantage. I also accept that it is now almost impossible
    in this country of ours to live without buying foreign goods. I know I
    do. However I try to always consider whether I could be buying British
    manufactured product.
    
    Sorry for that little rant so early.
    
    Andrew

    Ok, I admit it, I am (still) making a 'fashion statement'  :-)
    
    Rob

Anyone know if last nights Top Gear is repeated later in the Week?

    It used to be repeated early Friday evenings.... (last series)
    
    I don't know whether this is still true.

    I will never look at an Eddie Stobart lorry in the same way again...
    Now for the "working class" BMW...
    
    Tyrone
    

	I have to admit, I'd never heard of Eddie Stobart - maybe
	I just don't take much notice of lorries.

	Quentin whatsname's trailer for next week's programme made me
	chuckle: "We are on at 10:30 - BBC2 are showing 'La Traviata'
	and we are covering the interval. We've got some banger racing..."
	But what was he on about, Radio Times says no such thing?

	Ian.

It's been so bad recently I skipped it. Did I make a mistake and miss the Top
Gear comeback?

Dave.

    Can somebody explain what Eddie Stobart did with a lorry last night.
    Eddie comes from Carlisle, my home town. He isnt my favourite lorry
    company though because when you hold up a hitching sign with Carlisle on
    it Eddie Stobarts drivers never but never pick you up.He would have to
    do something pretty smart to go up in my esteem.
    			brian.

    In defence, I imagine not all Eddit Stobart trucks are necessarily
    going to Carlisle.

    They probably don't want to break the law or loose their jobs...
    e.g. they are not allowed to drive over 56mph,smoke anywhere on
    company property,have hair too long,have a dirty vehicle(they clean
    them everyday)...
    
    Tyrone
    

    I sadly missed the programme, but having seen Stobart's lorries I'm not
    surprised. It reminds me of Abels the removal firm who also deliver for
    M&S, one crew actually wax polished a furniture van so that it was the
    cleanest in the fleet.
    
    It works - if I were looking for road haulage, and his price is OK I'd
    go for it.
    
    Just to politicise for a moment, one reason for Digital's decline
    is/was that there is no company disci[line or understanding of what the
    company image should be.
    
    Andrew

    >I have to admit, I'd never heard of Eddie Stobart
    
    I'm not surprised, you consider going to Newbury 'up North'! :-)
    
    Huw.
    
    P.S. Top Gear is on at 10.00 pm, in between acts of La Traviata,
    according to a BBC2 trailer last night.

    But is it on at 10???
    
    Tyrone
    

    
    December's TG magazine mentioned that they now have their very
    own e-mail address. Tried sending a SUBSCRIBE to it but got
    the invalid address blurb. The address I tried was:
    
    HTTP://WWW.BBCNC.ORG.UK/BBCTV/TECHNOLOGY.HTML 
    
    i.e. VBORMC::"HTTP://WWW.BBCNC.ORG.UK/BBCTV/TECHNOLOGY.HTML"
    
    Has anyone of you managed to get onto this list ? if so
    what address did *you* use ?
    
    Thanks
    
    Tim

	Tim,

	That's a Web URL. You need to access it from a WWW interface (e.g.
	MOSAIC).

	BTW, it is also case sensitive:

	   http://www.bbcnc.org.uk/bbctv/technology.html

	Ian.

        This one is closer:
        
        http://www.bbcnc.org.uk/bbctv/topgear_mag/topgearmag_top.html
        
        
        Ian.

    Well,An Eddie Stobbart (sp) lorry passed me today,and I don't think the 
    boss would have any complaints.
    
    Tyrone
    

   I was told that Eddie himself got done recently....for speeding!

I assume he was not driving a 32 Tonner though

	All of the Stobarts I've seen have been very smartly turned
	in the attractive green/red colours. An admirable company.
	An article in a magazine some time ago said that there is
	some competition in this area from a european (dutch?) operator
	who uses a nice shade of orange and has a long name something
	along the lines of Johan Verstanghammer, but I've not seen one
	of these myself.

	Tonight Top Gear have their Astron Martin DB7 road test and
	that should be interesting. I must say that Clarksons reviews
	really are awfully good and I always watch them. Even boring
	cars can produce entertaining reviews. Can anyone out their
	remember some of those amazing comparisons he comes up with?.

	I haven't yet seen the Goodwood Festival of Speed report. The
	only top gear person I actually saw there was Tony Mason but
	it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get a lot of material.
	Perhaps they'll roll it out for Christmas (unless I've 
	missed it).

	-John

    
    The Clarkson-ism which sticks in my mind is :-
    
    "It's not the worst car I've ever driven. After all, I've driven a
     Nissan Micra!"
    
    I've not seen Top Gear much this series, but Clarkson begins to sound
    a bit repetitive, to me, after a while.
    
    Still, he has his moments.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Love the Quentin Wilson cereal ad! :^)

Clarkson's reviews never really tell you anything about the car other than
the size of the engine and what image it portrays. Very little info on 
comfort, economy, handling, ride, etc... He also has this very pro-British
(or neo-British) bias - It's a jaguar or an Aston Martin, therefore it's 
good! I prefer Chris Goffey myself

    I'm considering writing to Top Gear magazine, or at least Quentin
    Willson, to give him a written slap in the chops.  In this month's TG
    mag, there is a special "Buying 2nd hand cars" supplement, in which he
    spouts his usual garbage that he puts forward on the TV.  I read this
    supplement with a degree of disbelief/horror.  There follows a brief
    summary of some of the points he made, and why they annoyed me;
    
    
    QW - If the seatbelts don't retract perfectly, they've been used a lot,
    and the car is a high miler.  It's been clocked, so walk away.
    
    MG - My driver's seat seatbelt doesn't retract perfectly, because I do
    a lot of low distance driving.  The seatbelts have nothing to do
    with the milage whatsoever.  If a rep does trips of 500 miles at a
    time, he's only going to use the seatbelt twice on the journey. 
    However, if a housewife does 4 shopping trips a week, totalling 20
    miles, she'll use the seatbelt a helluva lot more.
    
    QW - If the side bolsters of the seats aren't rock solid, the car's
    been overused, so walk away
    
    MG - My driver's seat side cushion is a bit punished, as I used to
    share the car with my mother.  Every time I got in the car, I whacked
    the side cushion as I squeezed into the motor, before sliding the seat
    back.  This has nothing to do with high milage.
    
    QW - If there are any markings around the mile-ometer, such as
    fingerprints, scratches or grease marks, it's been clocked, so run a
    mile.
    
    MG - Inexplicably, my Golf has had a little greasy blotch near the
    left-hand digit on the mileometer, since new.  It has never been
    tampered with since it was unloaded from the transporter in front of
    us.  Anyone with half a brain could tell that the car hasn't done
    165,000 miles, and that the reading must be genuine.  However, if you
    put this together with all the other points, it looks bad.
    
    QW - Make sure the gear stick doesn't have much room to move.  If you
    can wiggle it from side to side, the box is on its way out.  
    
    MG - Ours has done this since new.
    
    QW - Stone chips on the bonnet mean that its seen a lot of Motorway
    driving, and is really a high miler.
    
    MG - My ex-girlfriend lived down a pretty long lane.  Whenever I drove
    down it, particularly if I was behind anyone else, the car would get
    sprayed with gravel.  Also, our local roads are covered with those
    pathetic chippings they dump on wet tar.  This means that my car has a
    fair few chips in the paint.
    
    
    There were a few other points like this, but I've forgotten them for
    now.  Basically, I'm running a 65k 8 year old VW Golf.  This is low
    milage, and yet if I try and sell it to a gullible Top Gear mag reader,
    they'll run a mile.  Willson has made such massive generalisations
    which may apply to relatively new fleet cars, but not to the whole
    market.  
    
    Matt$annoyed.
    

    
    I thought QWs usual advice was...
    
    
    
    Don't buy any car except a BMW and then, when you get the BM, engage in 
    sexual acts with it.
    
    The only thing of quality I've heard QW do is the ad for those 4WD toys
    in the cereal! 
    
    Mark
    

8-)

Mark, Quentin's a Merc man, isn't he?

Anyway, all this "Buyer's market" stuff is rubbish.  A huge percentage of 
"buyers" have to become "sellers" before they can buy another car!  Most buyers 
are also sellers!

Humphrey Appleby

    As someone who doesn't know anything about buying a used car I thought
    in general the supplement was useful.  Maybe not so relevant when
    buying something with 60,000 miles + ... but I was looking for a
    genuine 30,000 miles - and if the seats were in Quentin's words
    'sh*gged' etc then it might be dodgy.
    
    I just objected to his frequent use of the s****** word.
    
    
    Xtine

    	So did you write to TG or QW or not?  If you did, did you have a
    reply from them?
    
    				Malcolm (still catching up).

    Has anyone got a copy of last weeks (28/3/96) Top Gear programme they 
    are willing to lend?
    
    If so, please drop me a line here in Newbury.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Howard
    

	Last nights Top Gear did not give me a very good feeling
	about the lease scheme. For anyone who didn't see it, in
	the JD Power survey of 72 cars Vauxhall made up 6 of the 
	bottom 10!

	Top 10:				Bottom 10:
	 1 Toyota Corolla		63 Renault Espace
	 2 Honda Civic			64 Vauxhall Calibra
	 3 Toyota Carina		65 Vauxhall Corsa
	 4 Mazda 323			66 Vauxhall Astra
	 5 Mazda 626			67 Ford Mondeo
	 6 Mitsubishi Colt		68 Vauxhall Carlton
	 7 Honda Accord			69 Vauxhall Omega
	 8 Subaru Legacy		70 Ford Escort
	 9 BMW 5 series			71 Vauxhall Frontera
	10 Daihatsu Fourtrak		72 Lada Samara

    The common factor between the type of cars in the top vs the bottom
    10 is that the top 10 type of cars are usually driven by crumblies
    who wash n wax them every sunday morning and get driven as far
    as the day centre. Whereas the bottom 10 are 'thrashed to bits' fleet
    type of cars the eat up probably more than twice the average mileage
    than most.
    
    Royston

    > Whereas the bottom 10 cars are ' thrashed to bits' fleet type of cars
    > the eat up probably more than twice the average mileage than most.
    
    I thought the JP Power survey took all of this in too account when they
    select the people to be used in the sample - they try and use similar
    groups of people through out. I'm fairly sure if the above was true the
    survey wouldn't carry as much weight with the manufacturers as it does
    in the states !!
    
    Just my 2p worth
    
    Cheers
    
    Rick
    

    Sorry - cock up - wrong key JD Power survey for the previous note !!!
    
    Rick
    

    Well I've had 4 cars from the bottom 10 and been thoroughly pleased
    with all of them (apart from the Frontera stereo system that is)!
    
    Tony I

I agree with Royston; I get the impression that the `best loved' cars are 
those owned by wrinklies who do about 10 miles per annum, whereas the most 
hated are those driven millions of miles by salesmen who almost live in them.  
I think that some sort of correlation between the type of car and the sort of 
people who buy them would be interesting.

Chris.

    
    >>...the top 10 type of cars are usually driven by crumblies
         who wash n wax them every sunday morning....
    
    >>...I get the impression that the `best loved' cars are those
         owned by wrinklies who do about 10 miles per annum,....
    
    
    So what do you drive then?  Lada Samara?
    Get out of here!
    I own one of them in the top 10 list, yeah 9th one from the top......
    ........NOT!  It is one of top 5.
    
    I owned '89 model then switched to '92 model when they changed 
    engine, could not resist. 
    It's half made in U.S.A.(main components, ..ie Engine) and
    half made in Canada(final assemble).
    Between those two cars, only broken parts the dealer had to replace
    under warranty was a rear break lamp on the '92 model once at 45,000km
    when it burnt out, that's it.   Nothing goes wrong, nothing so far
    except burnt out lamp once.
    The dealer is 3rd class though, I bought both cars new but salesman
    I was dealing with was less than used car salesman.
    Mechanics are JBGFTS(Just Banch Of Guys From The Street).
    After having problem with the dealer I don't even care about regular
    maintenance anymore, just changing oil every 5,000 to 10,000Km when
    I remenbered.
    Never wax'd. May be I should.
    No dogs allowed though since my other car 9000turbo smells like a
    kennel.
    I use it as a cheap toy/commuter/everyday car.
    I trust its rev limitter so it goes 'til fuel cutoff kick in at
    7500rpm when Mr.Plod is not around.
    It can carry "14 feet" lumber in it with rear glass hatch opened and
    about 4 feet+ of lumber hanging out with red ribbon tied at end.
    Fun to drive, better than 9000 by far, 9000 is OK but I hate turbo lag.
    It only takes cheapest 87 octane regular unleaded.
    I sometime switch to 94 octane which is highest we can buy here to see
    if it makes anydifference or not.
    It seems give engine a little more torque at low rpm but not much.
    It has 77,000Km on it and decided to keep it, not switching to newly
    shaped '96 model.
    
    Isn't it strange to see Mazda 323 and Ford Escort at different end
    of the list?
    I thought Ford Escort is based on the Mazda 323 and share a lots of
    components between them.
    
    Mitz     
    
    
    

    >Get out of here!
    
    We're gone.

FYI, if I was having a dig at anything, it was some drivers (or rather 
owners), not their cars...

Chris.

    Come on Mitz, lighten up. Theres no need to jump down our throats.
    You seem to have a habit of over reacting to comments in here and
    then fire back uncalled for insults (Lada Samara indeed! :-) ).
    
    Mind you here's a case in point. My Dad (who qualifies as a wrinklie)
    owns an '81 Toyota Celica which has been in the family from new and 
    has been very trouble free throughout all of the 20,000 genuine miles
    of its life.
    
    He doesn't wash'n'wax every Sunday though,
    
    I do !

If it's true that cars for wrinklies score higher then why didn't a Proton make
it to the top 10?

Dave ;-)

    
    I've just got rid of a Mazda 626 after three lease years. It got to number
    6 (I think) on the list and deserves it. Never put a foot wrong. Well,
    OK, the legend rubbed off the Cruise Control stalk after a month. They
    replaced it and it never rubbed off again (which is something if you
    think about it).
    
    6 weeks into owning a Frontera. Steering is pulling, panel lights have
    failed (not a fuse) and stereo is 'not fit for purpose'. 
    
    BUT, the real killer for Vauxhall is the service. Mazda, always
    considerate without being over the top. Vauxhall, anything to get out
    of doing anything.
    
    Funny, I had a faultless Montego for three years but my impression of
    that period is negative. Why? Service, pure and simple.
    
    Richard

    Serious question -
    
    Is it fair to blame the manufacturer for the poor service/attitude of
    its franchised dealerships ?
    
    Isn't it like one of our customers blaming Digital for bad service from 
    a VAR/business partner ?
    
    Royston

>    Is it fair to blame the manufacturer for the poor service/attitude of
>    its franchised dealerships ?
    
I think that the manufacturer has some sort of responsibility to keep its 
dealers in order, although it's quite difficult with these franchise 
organisations.

Again, my negative impression of my previous car, the Rover, is because of the 
completely crap service I got, they wouldn't to a bloody thing; it was always 
a case of `go and see someone else about your tracking/bodywork/gearbox/trim/ 
etc, we can't be bothered'.

Chris.

    I saw it claimed that the survey had been targetted at 99% of all owners of
    L reg vehicles.
    
    I don't own mine - it's a Hertz Lease one - but it is L reg and I
    didn't get surveyed.
    
    Did any of us with an L reg lease car get surveyed?  And did any of us
    with an L reg non-lease car get surveyed?

    > get surveyed?
    
    This wasn't a question of 'getting surveyed'. TG asked for volunteers
    with L reg cars to phone in for a survey form.
    
    I can't remember if it was specifically owners (ie excluding company 
    car drivers). I seem to recall the way it was worded was if you 'drive'
    an L reg car 'we want to hear from you'.
    
    If the survey excludes company car drivers then I retract my comments
    about the bottom 10 being fleet type cars being thrashed etc.
    
    Royston
                                                                    

    	I actually rang TG and it took about 5 days (of engaged number) to
    get through, at which point I was told "We don't need any more Xantias" 
    I thought that rather strange at the time!
    
    				Malcolm

Company Car Drivers are included. 

I filled a Top Gear/JD Power form last year for K reg cars.

It asks if its a company/private car, and whether you had 
a choice in its selection.

If you are interested, my K-reg Calibra was faultless for 
3 years, but I was disappointed with the dealers.

Huw.

I rang the number to do the survey, got through first time, heard nothing since.

Dave.

    RE:.349
    
    Sorry I did not mean to.
    
    Just thought that all cars on the list are everyday use type
    of practical cars and if you don't use them as a tool then 
    less (or no) meaning owning it.
    
    Whatever you drive, never mind J.D....., if you like it, you 
    like it.   Use your own judgement.
    
    Mitz

    Did anyone see TG motorsport last Friday ?
    
    Nice to see Digital (or rather CSF/Digital) winning the kart racing.
    
    I must admit I had to do a double take when I first saw the digital
    logo on the kart.
    
    I'm surprised there has not already been any discussion on this.
    
    Are there any other areas of motorsport that digital sponsors ?
    
    Royston

    
    well yes, sort of......  in the latest scalextric catalogue there is a
    car with a DIGITAL logo on it !!!  but I think it was in blue.  I
    wonder if we will get royalties for it ???
    
    I also saw the CSF/DIGITAL logo on the TG show and meant to enter it in
    here to, but forgot !?!??
    
    - MARK -
    

    My girlfriend's (my present to her you understand) Scalextric has a Ferrari
    F1 car with a digital logo on it, a transparent cut out, so the logo looks
    red.
    
    dickie.
    
    (It was for her honest!)

    There was an article in one of last year's CAR magazines about a
    privately-entered TVR thingy entered into Le Mans... It had a Digital
    logo plastered over one of the rear wings.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
    
    
    

Top Gear, New Series

Thursday, 5-Sep 8.30pm BBC2

Huw.

    Tonight: Mr Clarkson drives the Audi A3, Crash Needell is let loose in
    a Lotus Elise, and Quentin does what Quentin does.
    
    Put the best bits (apart from QW) of the whole series in one program , 
    why don't ya'?

    
    So did anybody catch the new searies of "Top of the Pops", sorry..
    I mean "Top Gear" that was on last night.
    
    The whole show seems to have turned into a music video with Clarkson
    swanning around through clouds of steam in Iceland while the music rose
    to a crescendo (sp) in the background.
    
    The new Lotus looked good (chilly) and the new potential directive from
    Europe regarding replacement body panels/parts ominous.
    
    Paul.

    
    TG.... yes indeed,  the most interesting bit was about how the ALL the
    car manufacturers were going to monopolise the car body
    panels/windscreen/indicators/etc so that you HAD to buy them from the
    local dealer and not from Halfords/car shop type outlet.
    
    Therefore you would have to pay top $ to the manufacturer !!!! and all
    the windscreen type replacement Co's /Halfords/corner car
    shop/manufacturers of car bits (not making authorised parts) would
    potentially all go out of business.  More unemployment.  This will also
    put up insurance as it will cost more to repair and so on.....
    
    Me thinks that the Treaty of Rome articules 85/86 should come into play
    here !?!?!  
     
    What do you all think of that then ?????
    
    Regards,
    
    - MARK -
    
    

    re the legislation
    
    What bothered me was how are they going to inforce this ?
    If the manufacturers use 3rd party parts like lucas will
    we have to get these parts on the 'black market' ? How will
    Halfords etc be prohibited from selling them.
    
    I can't see it myself.
    
    Royston

    re. legislation / Top Gear
    
    Did Top Gear say why this is being proposed? It is totally stupid.
    It seems like it's another case of Brussels poking their finger in
    another pie just for the sake of it! 
    
    I thought companies like Lucas made the parts for the manufacturers,
    who then put them in their cars. Lucas then being able to sell them in
    turn to companies like Halfords for sale to the general public.
    
    Is it that the legislation will only allow the car manufacturers to
    produce the components that make up the car?
    
    Alan.

    ... but taking a "manufacturer's view", surely if you fit non-original
    parts then any warranty will be invalidated. Fit cheepo parts at your
    peril!
    
    mb
    
    p.s. Why can't Brussels worry about more important things, like banning
    drivers who wear trilby hats??

I got the impression that the manufacturers were promoting the concept
of "copyright" in the sense that a shaped body part represents a design
investment that others should not be free to copy.

The users view is that they have paid the design fee once already and
should not have to pay again for a replacement.

The bottom line seemed to be that, except in the UK, new cars
were not profitable enough.

Peter