Conference terri::cars_uk

>     <<< Note 18.111 by CURRNT::PREECE "Are You Now, Or Have you Ever ?" >>>

>    So each knock that comes from a diesel is actually the noise from
>    a seperate detonation, transmitted through the mechanics of the car.
>    It's noisier when it's cold, because the fuel isn't atomised so
>    efficiently, and the explosion is uneven, taking longer to propagate
>    around the chamber, and hence making more noise.
    

On the subject of cold starting any suggestions why my 205D has started
to...

When starting first thing in the morning (only!) the car fires
up as normal on the first key turn.. but! while I reverse out of the
drive and for the first few minutes the engine is 'hunting' (ready
to stall) and emiting the most AMAZING volume of smoke! (I'am used to
a little smoke from the car in the morning.. but this is THICK clouds
of smoke (the car had its 5,000 only a few weeks ago)

After the first few minutes.. everything is 100% normal 



PS: See several earler notes about my arguments with the garage
about the oil consumtion of this car

Maybe you've picked up some dirty fuel? it may be half blocking the jets?

There is an additive you can buy for petrol and diesel engines that
supposedly clears them out - I've never used it, but a driend
of mine did on an old Horizon diesel - he reckoned it was very good.

Is it Redex or STP? I dunno..

not very helpful, really!!

Peter		(who usually buys his diesel at superstores 'cos it's cheap!)

    Could be where all the oil is going!. As the engine warms up the rings
    tighten up and stop it seeping past!. 
    
    Or it could be the enrichment adjustment out. There's a cable between
    the thermostat manifold and the fuel unit, it advances the timing when
    cold. 
    
    Finally, does it fire first time, or do you also have to crank it over,
    it may be the glowplugs not working, this produces lots of smoke as the
    engine's so cold and inefficient.
    
    The only ray of hope is that the reasons for bad starting diesels are
    less numerous than for petrols!.
    
    Richard

         <<< Note 18.127 by UKCSSE::RDAVIES "Live long and prosper" >>>
    
>    Finally, does it fire first time, or do you also have to crank it over,
>    it may be the glowplugs not working, this produces lots of smoke as the
>    engine's so cold and inefficient.
    

starts first time.. every time (one thing this 'car' is good at.. and

     
    The starting problem sounds slightly similar to a problem that I
    had on my 309, when about six months old.
    It was fixed on the second attempt, by replacing the pipes between
    the fuel filter and the pump. Apparently there is a "banjo" type
    connection, where the metal pipe changes direction and this had
    not been machined perfectly flat, so that air could get in while
    the car stood idle overnight. It was discovered by the fact that
    if you hand primed it with a few strokes on the pump, before trying
    to start, it ran OK after the initial surge as the air was expelled
    through the engine. The joint had apparently flexed through use
    and was allowing the air to be sucked in by the slight vacuum while
    the car cooled overnight. The garage replaced the complete pipework
    under warranty, and since then, no problems whatsoever.
    
    Brian
    
    

    Anyone know if, like petrol engines, diesels:

    - wear faster when cold?
    - use more fuel when cold?

    I'm thinking about fitting a Kenlowe HotStart (3kw mains-powered
    preheating device, plumbed into cooling system). Have had good
    experience of one fitted to a petrol engined car. 

    Richard

    I know they don't stay cold very long! Can't say I've noticed
    increased consumption. If you think about it, petrol cars do this
    because the choke's an enrichment device. On diesel's the "choke"
    actually just advances the injection timing by about 2 degree's, so it
    doesn't change the mixture.
    
    
    My guess is don't bother, you've already got glow plugs and (probably)
    a fuel heater.
    
    Richard

    
    I've been running a BX 19 DTR for over two years now and I am beginning
    to think about a replacement (as a qualified user).
    
    I would like to do the best for my pocket and the environment and
    I like my current car well enough to have another (BX diesel). 
    
    I quote from the current BX brochure "Diesel power is, of course,
    lead free and BX Diesels offer very much cleaner characteristics.
    Not just cleaner than a conventional petrol engine, either. Properly
    maintained, a BX diesel can produce substantial lower emissions
    of major toxins (such as carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons
    and nitrous oxides) than even the cleanest catalytic converter-equipped
    petrol engine." If this is true, and I can't think of any reason
    why Citroen whould print anything other than the truth, why is the
    FoE so against diesels (they currently have a campaign highlighting
    polution from diesels).
    
    Are diesels cleaner than petrol? Answers please.
    
    Ian.
    
    

    
    I think the important phrase in this brochure is "Properly maintained"
    
    Diesels when not properly maintained, which I must think constitutes
    about of 80% of diesel powered vehicles, polute very heavily!
    
    Steve

>    why Citroen whould print anything other than the truth, why is the
>    FoE so against diesels (they currently have a campaign highlighting
>    polution from diesels).
>

	I think what the FoE are concerned about is the high content of sooty
	particulates in the exhaust. As .-1 noted these can be caused by poor
	engine maintainence but it is also too evident in the emissions from
	large commercial vehicles even when correctly maintained.

	If you really want to "go green" take a look at the new
	VW Golf "Umwelt" Diesel, VW claim that it is the cleanest car petrol
	or diesel currently available. Mind you the exhaust emission may be
	lacking the carbon monoxides, sooty particulates and oxides of
	nitrogen but they do contain very high levels of carbon dioxide.
	What you save on the swing etc. etc.

	Share and enjoy...

		Ian Seaton.

    I currently have a BX 19DTR which will soon be up for replacement. I
    test drove the TZD TURBO under the Citroen UK car loan scheme (see VTX
    "test driving cars" ) . Citroen lent me the car for a week ! delivered
    it to BST and collected it AND sdhowed dismay that I returned it to
    them with a full tank. What service. I loved the car but a BX turbo
    diesel seems quite expensive . has anybody had a chance to test drive
    the VW GTD, current quotes put this around #200, which seems
    remarkable, but I notice the cars spec has recently been upgraded . I
    guess this quote is out of date. Anywaqy VW have No similar deal to
    citroen and I hav'nt yet found a VW garage with a GTD. has anyone else
    tried this car ?
    

    
    Hello,
    
    Has noone got anything to say about diesel cars (nice things please!). I
    am waiting for the arrival of a BX DZT Turbo (still). What with the
    cost of fuel high and possibly about to go throug the roof there has
    been a bit of a run on diesel orders. I am hoping to hear some good
    news about the tax on diesel fuel soon.
    
    Ian.
    

    And lots on the BX in note 37
    
    Richard

    OK, you diesel die-hards! I'd like to have your reactions to this
    one.... Just to let you know that some of you have ALMOST succeeded in
    persuading me to get a diesel next time!
    
    A couple of weeks ago, I borrowed a Fiat Tipo 1.9 Tds for the weekend,
    and I was very impressed with it, particularly its cruising refinement.
    However, I have two questions about the Tipo 1.9 Tds that I would be
    grateful if you could reply to.
    
    First, is it technically and practically feasible to fit
    air-conditioning to diesels such as the  1.9 Tds? Are there any
    restrictions (such as under-bonnet room, or the power-consumption of
    the air-con. unit) that prevent air-conditioning being installed? I
    really do want to have air-con. on my next car, but I understand that
    Fiat do not offer it as a factory-fitted option on the Tipo; I don't
    want to get a 1.9 Tds, then discover that it is not possible to fit
    air-con.
    
    Secondly, when we borrowed the 1.9 Tds, we noticed when driving at
    night that exhaust smoke from the diesel was clearly visible in the
    headlights of the following car. Because `our' car had done only 5500
    miles, I assumed that its engine was set up OK. More interestingly, I
    have just read the March 1991 issue of Diesel Car magazine, which has
    tested the Fiat Tempra 1.9 Tds; one of the magazine's observations was
    that the car smoked noticeably -- a lot more than the VW Jetta against
    which it was being compared; I understand that the Tipo and Tempra Tds
    cars have exactly the same engine. I am fully aware of the theoretical
    environmental benefits that a diesel car offers against even an
    unleaded petrol car, and I also appreciate that diesel smoke does not
    necessarily mean `pollution'. However, I would be very reluctant to
    purchase a car that `looked' to other motorists as if it were polluting
    the atmosphere heavily, and it must also be unpleasant for following
    motorists to have to drive behind such diesel fumes. I would appreciate
    comments on whether you would expect the Tipo and Tempra Tds models to
    emit smoke to this noticeable degree, or whether both instances are
    isolated cases. Are you aware whether Fiat diesels in general have
    higher or lower emissions of diesel smoke than other comparable
    diesels?
    
    
    Cheers,
    Stephen 

Well, if you wanna see a really smoky one, try the Montego Turbo diesel.
(but they have just introduced a new version, which is supposed to fix
it!)

I reckon you should compare smoky diesels with smelly cats; they don't
really cause any damage, just upset a few people.

I reckon that the Pug/Citroen and VW diesels are the best as regards smoke,
and then the Vauxhall/Fiat/Ford, and finally the Montego.

Most diesels may emitt smoke at very high revs, due to incomplete
combustion.... As they all have to comply with EEC regulations, I guess
it shouldn't be too bad.

Regardimg Air Con; the BX has it as an option on the TZD and TZD turbo
models (But you can't get it with automatic on the TZD).

Whether the Tipo could have it I've got no idea. I guess one of the
after market fitters could do it (for a sum of money), but do you
really want your dashboard pulled to bits?

And is there enough room in the engine compartment for all the bits? My BZ TZD
Turbo is pretty crammed now, with the turbo and air-con....

The BX seems to use some kind of electric pump for it's air-con; there isn't
a drive belt from the engine for it in mine.

Peter.

    Re smoky diesels.
    
    I seem to recall some traffic in the serious press (Sun, Sport...) that
    Diesel smoke contains some carcinogenic particulates, whatever they may
    be.
    
    Steve

    
    All soot contains carcinogenic particulates which can cause cancer.
    Diesels are sootier than Petrol engines and therefore, presumably, a 
    greater risk.
    
    This is gleamed from Top Gear, so you can believe it or not.
    
    Mark

    
    FWIW ...
    
    Hired a BX diesel estate the other weekend, the amount of s#1t that
    came out of the back amazed me!
    
    How can people drive these horrible cars?

 >>>Hired a BX diesel estate the other weekend, the amount of s#1t that
 >>>came out of the back amazed me!
    
 >>>How can people drive these horrible cars?

Simple..... when it's your own, as opposed to a hire care, you make sure it's 
set up properly, driven properly, maintained well and running on good 
quality fuel.  That way, you get all the benefits without having to put up 
with the uninformed insults.      ;-)

>> That way, you get all the benefits without having to put up 
>> with the uninformed insults.      ;-)
    
    Oh come on Ian, you never get away from uninformed insults! :^)
    
    Mark

    
    Come on Lewis, get in here, we were the one's who complained way back
    when .......
    
    As regards Mr. Preeces comments .....
    
    If a car can go that badly wrong with 3,000 miles on the clock, then I
    would regard my comments as uninformed.
    
    As far as I know, people buy these things for economy, and probably
    don't drive them with the accelerator squashed on the deck, as this one
    was being driven, but I felt sorry for the people behind.
    
    Lucky I coudn't see them!

    Now then,
    	Wots all this, dragging me from my slumbers.
    
    I only drove a diesel once, and then it only went 5 feet before
    suffering terminal damage.
    
    Never quite saw the point in them myself. If anyone is *that* worried
    about the environment they should switch to two wheels anyway.
    
    There, Scouse g**, will that do ?
    
    Wonko the Sane
    

It is an offence for a diesel engined vehicle to emit "visible smoke".
There may be an exemption for a short time after starting the engine.

Unfortunately the standard is not well defined and there is a reluctance
to prosecute offenders.

jb

re .149; I thought the regulations were written that the smoke had to
actually obscure visibility, rather than just be visible...

But it is down to personal interpretation by the officer.

Peter.

           <<< WANLAD::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY.GENERAL]CARS_UK.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< CARS_UK conference >-
================================================================================
Note 1910.1                Diesel car wanted -- Golf?                     1 of 1
LARVAE::IVES_J "Bad Karma in the UK"                 16 lines   6-OCT-1992 16:49
                                   -< BX ? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm on my second BX diesel (Citroen) and have never had any problems .
    I have the 19TGD, previously the 19DTR (Both the same model).
    
    whilst I like it I doubt it would meet your speed requirements. I've
    never 'dun the tun' in it I find 95mph about the most I can get.
    
    However the TURBO version would probably be a good option. The BX
    diesels certainly seem popular around Digital (See BX note).
    
    I think there is now a ZX Turbo diesel which would be good, though as
    this is a recent model maybe second hand it may be difficult to find.
    
    With the GOLF TGD I discounted it last time as you don't get power
    stearing as standard ( with the new golf it is now standard in the UK)
    A 1.9 Golf without power stearing is not a joke. I know, my wife had one
    and you should see the muscles she developed :-)

    I don't know what I want yet -- that's what I'm asking in here for...
    
    Interesting about the controls. The last BX I drove probably was a 
    pre 1985 model then (this was in 1987), so I should try another one. 
    Also, I wasn't aware of the speed and I'll definitely go check it out, 
    probably by test driving one. It would be enormously to my advantage to
    buy French, since insurance and parts etc. are cheaper on the home
    grown cars.
    
    Thanks for the information.
    
    Piers

    As I recall the Peugeot 205 Turbo Diesel and Renault 19 Turbo Diesel
    both got very good reviews in the UK press (We have a magazine called
    Diesel Car - I think ). Both fell into the "fast, Fun  & Frugal"
    category with finish and build maybe taking a back seat.
    
    Next time around for me it's going to be ZX TD Vs Golf TD.
    
    I think that Citroen , Peugeot , Renault and Rover all use the same
    1.9litre Diesel unit from Peugeot. Older Montegos from Rover use the
    Perkins unit and I think Golf build there own, FWIW.
    
    With the future of a unified Europe up in the air I doubt there is much
    chance of UK Diesel prices falling in line with the rest of Europe, Oh
    well !
    
    happy test driving
    

    Sounds like I will soon be trying out a BX, a Golf, an R19 and a 205.
    
    Thanks for the info, everyone
    
    Piers
    

I also seem to remember seeing good reviews of the Renault 19 Turbo diesel


Greg

    Went around the garages yesterday, and...
    
    Renault 19 Turbo Diesel is practically unobtainable in France (at least
    three months waiting list, and no demo cars with 100 miles); the man
    said they're shipping all the ones they can to Germany(?!?!). It has a
    good spec., I'll give it that. But he said if I wanted to test drive
    one I could forget about it; they're selling all they can get in without
    giving test drives.
    
    There was a surprisingly large range of Peugeits available, both 309s
    and 405s. I'm driving one tomorrow to see how it goes, but the 309 is a
    little suburban looking (IMHO) and the 405 is probably bigger than I
    want or need right now. The new 205 GTD (or was it XRTD?) I tried was
    nippy but noisy. 
    
    Tried a Renault 19 Diesel (standard) and decided that a turbo was
    definitely what I needed, regardless of what make I end up with.
    
    Liked the Land Rover Turbo Diesel I tried very much, but it has a low
    top speed and isn't remotely economical. Saw a rep's CL Diesel Golf,
    but it had no rear seats and zero extras.
    
    Have yet to see the Citroen, Opel and VW people.
    
    Any more info and/or opinions anyone has gratefully received.
    
    Piers

    Any performance details for the 19 turbo D ? Is it cheaper than the ZX
    TD ?
    
    Roy

    Don't know about the ZX prices yet, but the R19 has a top speed of
    183kph, 90 something BHP, 0-100kph in 11.something, and standing km in
    30 seconds or so. This outshines the 405 GRDT in every category, and is
    better on fuel consumption too.
    
    I'll be checking out the ZX later -- for reference, in France the R19
    costs FF101,000 for the basic model, and FF109,500 with all the extras.
    
    Piers

    Thanks Steve,
    
    Sounds just fine.
    
    Piers

>>           <<< Note 18.157 by LARVAE::IVES_J "Bad Karma in the UK" >>>
>>                         -< also Renault and Peugeot >-

>>    I think that Citroen , Peugeot , Renault and Rover all use the same
>>    1.9litre Diesel unit from Peugeot. Older Montegos from Rover use the
>>    Perkins unit and I think Golf build there own, FWIW.

    
    All correct except 
    	The renault engine is their own.
    
    	For PUG/CIT/ROV All the normal aspiration engines are 1905cc, but 
    	the Turbo units (until the new ZX) used a 1769cc version of the 
    	same engine. The ZX now has the 1.9 in normal aspiration AND TURBO.
    
    	This will be fitted to the NEW MODEL BX next year, and I believe
    	will also be fitted to new 405's soon.
    
    
    Richard
    
    
    

There seems to be a shortage of Renault 19's in the UK as well. The sales 
person I spoke to said they can sell all they get in the UK. She also said 
all new orders are factory ordered so you can have whatever options you want!

Greg

    
    	Just to add to the common knowledge:
    
    	Not only did the BX lose its' "non-standard" switches etc. in about
    '87 it gained about 10% more horsepower due to changes to the air inlet
    tract.  Went up from about 65 to 71HP.
    
    	Also, regarding Diesel polution and carcigenous (sp?) output, there
    are at least as many research projects that prove that they don't exist
    as those that prove that Diesel emmissions do have them.  So the case
    is at best "not proven."  As with so many things in todays world, you
    simply choose your expert to prove whatever is your point.
    
    	As far as the "obnoxiousness" of car exhausts goes, I don't like
    Diesel exhaust any more than the next man, but I personally dislike
    even more, the exhaust of petrol engines with the choke fully on.  I
    find that really nauseating and have normally to persuade the car
    behind me to overtake me so that he'll disperse the exhaust somewhat
    before it gets to me, or I have to overtake the offending car before I
    am sick.
    
    	Almost as bad is the "bad egg" smell from "catalized" petrol
    engined cars.
    
    				Malcolm.

    As most regular readers will know by now, I have a new 405 GLDT Estate.
    I'm VERY happy with it, performance is great, economy is superb, it's
    quiet, comfortable and large enough for a family of 5. It handles well,
    surprisingly so, and came shod with low profile NCT2s. I'd strongly
    recommend at least a test drive, and certainly suggest you go for the
    turbo version. There is some discussion on large estates in this
    conference somewhere, the Pug is mentioned at length.
    
    It's now 200 miles overdue for its first service, due at 1500 miles,
    and this is the list I have for the dealer to sort out:
    
    1) The brake servo pipe fell off, please refit properly.
    2) Both back doors need to be slammed to make them shut, please adjust.
    3) There is occasionally a smell of diesel internally, please
       investigate/cure (running rich?).
    4) It tends to smoke a little under hardish accelleration, will this go
       away with time/does it need adjusting? (running rich?)
    5) There is an irritating squeak from the nearside of the rear parcel
       shelf/load cover, please fix.
    
    That's all I have to moan about. Each tankfull seems to last longer
    than the previous one, currently ~600 miles to 60-65 litres, mostly short
    runs, urban use. As a family runabout, it's great.
    
    Laurie.
    
    PS. Point 1 above. I refitted as best I could, but to fit it "properly"
        there's a few "bits and pieces" that have to come off in order to
        tighten the hose clip. It's under warranty, so I'm not touching it!

    I heard the other day that when the Xantier comes out Citroen will keep
    the BX estate on as there won't be a replacement availalbe for a while.
    So don't worry about missing them.
    
    Also a ZX estate is due out sometime, but not sure when.
    
    Richard

    re .171
    
    Bliss !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    now all i have to do is figure out which is the cheapest option that
    will justify entering a new quote !!
    
    Thats made my day (pathetic is'nt it)
    
    Thanks
    
    jives

    I had a brief look at the Seat's. Well spec'd, comfortable, good value. 
    
    BUT... For a turbo, gutless compared to the normally aspirated BX's,
    plus poorer economy, PLUS the engine sounds and feels quite rough again
    compared to the BX diesels.
    
    Richard

    I have now had a Vauxhall Astra Estate, Turbo Diesel, for a month. I
    don't think that I have had a better car in this class. The turbo pulls
    well (once you are out of first gear) and it's doing about 43 mpg
    around town. The performance is not that different from the Sierra 1.8
    Est that I had before and compares with 28 Mpg around town!        
    
    Worth a test drive - no doubt.
    
    Keith.