Conference 7.286::home_work

This is one of those subjects that everyone you talk to gives you a different
story.  I have heard two reasons why pounding is better than rotary drilling:

1)  A rotary drill makes a 6" clean hole.  A pounder cracks up the surrounding
    rock as it makes the hole.  That means that you could miss a water seam by
    inches with the rotary drill and get no water from it, whereas with the
    pounder you would break into that seam.

2)  With a rotary drill, the cuttings are flushed out of the hole by water 
    pumped down the center of the drill at 500+ psi.  If you hit a small water
    seam, it can be sealed closed by the stone dust at high pressure.  I'm
    not totally clear on how the pounder gets the cuttings out of the hole, but
    it is not under such high pressure.

The main advantage of a drill is that it is fast.  You can drill a couple of
hundred feet a day, but you can only pound about 30 feet in a day.  This makes
it much more profitable to run a rotary drill, even though they are more $$$.
If you are the driller, you can drill a well in 2 days instead of 2 weeks,
which means that you can drill 5+ times the number of wells in the same amount
of time.  Given that they cost about the same, you make much more money that
way.  Contractors also like them because they are just going to pass the cost
along to the buyers, and it quicker and more convenient.


Then there is also the question of dowsers.  If you can find an old time dowser,
it would probably be well worth the $50 or so that they usually charge to 
locate your well for you.  Considering that drilling costs about $7-8/foot, they
only have to save you 7 feet to pay for their service, which is not much of a
gamble.  There also is a firm, Accurate Water Location Service of New England,
which has a sensitive magnetometer that they claim can locate water.  They 
charge about $300, but we were not totally convinced that it worked.

When we were considering a well, we went and asked a contractor in town how he
went about digging a well.  His response:  "Well, I call up Gary Armstrong,
(a rotary driller in Windham.  Probably the most reputable, since the contrac-
tor we talked to was George Dinsmore, who only builds top quality houses.),
and then I go down to the liquor store and buy a bottle of vodka and a bottle
of champagne.  I pick a convenient spot, and have Gary drill there.  If we hit
water shallow, I open the Champagne.  If it's deep, I open the vodka."

Good luck.  If your neighbors have 600ft wells, it's likely that yours won't
be shallow, although you can never tell.

BTW, we lucked out.  The ledge is deep on our land, and we wound up digging
a 19 ft deep dug well.

Paul

The people that I have talked to have also recommended pounder rigs. (Actually,
one person I talked to insisted that it should be a *cable* pounder rig; he
implied that there is some other type of pounder rig, but I don't know anything 
about that.)  I believe that there is someone in Wilton, NH who uses a
cable pounder rig.  I was warned that there is about a six month waiting
list for the service.

Kirk

  I had a well drilled (rotary drill) a couple of years ago.  They
  went 240', got 6+ gallons/minute, and had it done in one day.
  From what I understand, that's pretty much an "average" well
  in my area.  I wasn't particularly worried about not hitting
  water, and I didn't think the well would need to be exceptionally
  deep.
  Now, in your case, with two neighbors down around 600' with very
  limited water flow, that's another story.  You obviously need all 
  the edge you can get.
  Will a pounding drill *REALLY* make a difference though?  I have
  my doubts, but who knows.  The arguments certainly sound reasonable,
  but the effects of pounding can make a difference only if there
  is in fact water around.
  Here's another alternative I've heard about, which appeals to my 
  sense of anarchy:
  Drill the well with a rotary drill, then drop a stick of dynamite
  down the well to crack the rock if you don't have a good flow.
  Obviously, if you want to try this stunt you'll have to line
  up a blaster as well as a driller.
  Of course, you could drill the well with a pounding drill and
  dynamite it too, to get the best odds....
  
  Steve

    I have heard of the dynamite solution also, but never found out
    about the risks or results. 
    
    I have also heard that some of the well drillers use a machine
    that is a combination of pounding and boring.
    
    When I had a lot of questions about our well when we were building
    I called Sullivan Well Drilling (617-779-6677) and they were very
    helpful. They may add to the information you gather, however your
    local well people will know more about the local conditions.
    
    Steve

    Best Recommended in the Derry NH area is:
    
    Armstrong Artesian Well Co.
    Rt 111A
    Windham NH
    898-7801
    
    /jmp
    
    

    I cant resist a well story- I nearly lost my ... drilling wells
    for my summer home in Maine. 3 wells later, at $7 per foot, I have
    a barely marginal well. I have now been told I should have used
    a pounder for all of the reasons cited above. When #2 well went
    dry I was offered dynamite and dry ice as ways to open them up.
    My driller, the most popular one in the area, would not do either-
    his experience was if you broke up the rock enough to do any good
    you also broke it up enough that the pump couldnt be re-inserted.
    
    My scientific, technical side says dowsers are dumb folklore. If
    I ever drill another well Ill gladly pay the dowser-  he/she couldnt
    do any worse than a driller.

    Re: .4
      I used Sullivan (in Bolton, Mass.) when I drilled my well and
    thought they were efficient, honest, and professional.  You can
    probably find somebody equally good closer to NH though.
    
    Re: .6
       I guess you'd have to drill, dynamite, then drill again to clear
    out the rock.  I would also think that the water might rise in the
    drill hole far enough so you could get the pump down into the water
    anyway.  Assuming there is any water to rise in the first place....
    I expect dynamite does fall into the desperation-move category,
    but if all else fails it might be worth a try.  There was a story
    in Country Journal a year or two about dynamiting a well.  It worked,
    apparently, but the experience was quite an adventure.  Other stories
    I've heard or read about dynamiting wells also tend to make it sound
    a little hairy.  But it DOES appeal to my sense of anarchy!
    
    Steve

    I would recommend Dube & Son in Merrimack, NH...
    
    They just extended my well from 100 ft to 500 ft for my heating
    system. I went from 40 gallons per minute to >150 gallons per minute.
    
    They have a number of different rigs and use what is appropriate
    for the job. 
    
    They are probably one of the better drillers around. I understand
    they are one of two drillers in the New England area which uses
    lasers to insure accuracy on drilling (this is for a lot of deep
    well commercial jobs). 
    
    I was quite satisfied with their work. Just make sure all the details
    are worked out up front..
    
    You can expect to pay anywhere from $5 to $10 a foot depending on
    what they are drilling in, how deep, how much water they hit, and
    whether you need casing. 
    
    I found out that the deeper you go and the more water you get the
    more powerful the compressor (a well full of water at 500 ft at
    over 150 gal/min takes a hell of a lot of air...). And he was drilling
    in solid granite (with cracks somewhere). 
    
    You want to speak with Ron Dube 603-669-4810. Tell him I recommended
    him... He is an interesting character.
    
    
    Merle

    .8  I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU NEEDED GREATER THAN 40 GALLONS PER MINUTE
        FOR A HEATING SYSTEM? 
    
    
    GERRY
    

    It wasn't the gallons I needed, it was the water column. With the
    design being used it takes about 100 ft of water per ton of the
    heating/cooling system. 
    
    The system I will have is a "closed loop" opposed to "pump and dump".
    I could not dump since my neighbors would start complaining about
    all the water. It takes about 4 gallons per minute per ton to get
    the heat extraction on a "dump" system. The "dump" would have been
    much cheaper but I would rather have my neighbors be nice to me.
    
    So I get a well that can supply the town with water. I seem to be
    the only one around with this amount. Dube told me I was extremely
    lucky since there are a lot of people in the area who would "kill"
    for that amount of water (maybe unlucky, come to think of it).
    
    The nice thing is getting all my heat, hot water, and air conditioning
    with NO fuel bills. Considering what my electric bills are now I
    will cut them by almost 4 times. 
    
    Merle

    	When own town water from the street, is there any way to increase
    your water pressure or get the town to do it?  How is it done and
    how reluctant would they be to doing it?  Any know this stuff?
    
    							Jorge'

    usually the city water pressure is high enough (unless you live
    on the fringes, or on a hill...), and there is usually a pressure
    limiter installed (somewhere, I think outside the house/before
    the meter???) to LOWER the city pressure to normal house
    limit (40 lbs?).
    
    		Joe

    I've generally seen the pressure regulators inside, just after the
    water meter.  If you've got one, it will probably be a conical or
    dome-shaped gizzie about 4" high and 3" across at the base, with
    a screw coming out of the top of it.  There may be a tag on it stating
    what pressure it is set to.  I assume the screw is the adjustment,
    if you know how to adjust it.  Those things can fail; I remember
    growing up, somebody I knew had very low water pressure at his house.
    Turned out to be the pressure regulator.
    
    If you don't have one and you really do have all the pressure the
    town can give you, you could always install a supplemental pump
    and a pressure tank, just like somebody would have for a well.
    You'd probably be talking $500-$600, as a very rough guess.
    
    Steve
    

    
    .10  WHAT KIND OF HEATING SYSTEM DO YOU HAVE...OOPS....I READ THE
    HEADER TO YOUR NOTE THAT INDICATES THAT IT IS A HEAT PUMP. I JUST
    PURCHASED A HOUSE THAT HEATS BY FHA WITH A HEAT PUMP PROVIDING THE
    HEATING/COOLING. I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HEAT PUMPS. THE HEAT
    PUMP IN THE HOUSE I BOUGHT IS A CARRIER AND DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE
    CONNECTED TO ANY SOURCE OF WATER AT ALL WHICH IS WHY I ASKED ABOUT
    THE VOLUMES OF WATER YOU NEEDED.  CAN YOU (OR ANYONE) EXPLAIN THE
    PRINCIPLE BEHIND HEAT PUMPS AND HOW THEY CAN BE USED TO HEAT/COOL?
    
    THANX
    
    GERRY
    

    I'm starting a new note on heat pumps at #62.
    
    -joet

    	OOPS, I may have committed a NO-NO.  RE:13 I looked into the
    idea of a pressure regulator in my water line around my meter. 
    My meter is a bell shaped device about 8" high with a round 6" base
    that contours up to a 3" top.  This has a flip lid on the top to
    reaveal the meter display.  This top meter portion is secured by
    two screws that have a wire running around and thru the screws so
    to protect it from tampering.  I tampered.  While chacking it out
    I pulled the wire out.  At that point I said "what the heck" and
    took off the top meter instrument, after turning off the water
    ofcourse.  The instrument was a 2" cylinder that sat ontop of the
    bell shaped device.  Under the instrument was a small gear sitting
    ontop of a 5/8" nut that was loosely adjusted.  I then had my wife
    stand by the sink upstairs and watch the water as I turned the nut.
    She thought she noticed the pressure increase slightly but wasn't
    sure.  I gave it a full 360 turn but it did'nt make much difference.
    The nut was so loose you could turn it by hand.  What I would like
    to know is this nut an adjustment for the accuracy of the meter
    or is it actually a pressure adjustment?  Did I committ a plumbing
    mortal sin?  Is this bell-shaped housing a pressure regulator at
    all or is the whole thing just part of the meter?  I think I can
    fix the security wire on top OK but before I do I would like to
    adjust what I can, if I can, Now that I can.  Help!!!!
    
    
    							Jorge'
    

    re: .16
    
    THIS IS THE UTILITY POLICE!  
    WE KNOW YOU'RE IN THERE!  
    COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP!
    
    Serious plumbing faux pas on your part!  
    
    If I were you, I'd call a plumber immediately.  I had a neighbor (back
    in PA) whose daughter undid the seal on an electric meter and the next
    time the meter reader came by, she was assesed a $150.00 fine for
    "tampering".
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  I'm sure that the nut in question has nothing to do with water
    pressure.

    
    We've been getting ground water seeping into the seal on our
    new well during this week's downpours (we must have had in excess
    of 2"/hour between 4 and 5 AM today). The seal is just below where
    grade wants to be.
    
    I'm looking for suggestions as to how to protect the well head
    from ground water yet allow grade to come to a natural level 
    around same. What I have in mind is digging out around the well
    head, surrounding it with a section of galvanized culvert set in
    crushed stone.
    
    Will this do the trick? Other ideas?
    
    Stu
    

    They make concrete well tiles that you can put around the well head
    and finish the grade up to it. They may last longer than the metal
    pipe. Check the yellow pages for a precast concrete supplier.
    
    Nick

In response to how to increase your water supply:

I realize that this reply is probably months late in helping any of you
that had questions back in February but it may be of interest to future
readers.

Dynamite is not a way that I would suggest.  Most areas require special
permits and the results are a bit unpredictable, not to mention dangerous.

I just had a well drilled (in NH) that went down 660 feet and resulted in
one gallon per minute.  Although the static level was about 10 feet from 
the top giving me a water reserve of about 900 gallons I asked what the
(realatively cheap) alternatives were that may possibly give me more GPM.

The suggestion that I went with was dry ice ($450.00).  The way that it
was explained to me is that the dry ice freezes the entire column of water,
creating an enormous amount of preasure.  Because the top of the well is
tightly sealed, the preasure has no way to go but out.  Because of this,
every little crack that can be found is forced to expand.  I am told that
this process usually yields about 2 to 3 times as many GPM.  I just had
this done on my well and the results are not yet in.... I'll let you know.

If anyone else has had this done, I would be interested in hearing what
your results were.

				Sonny

    Re: .-1
    Interesting idea!  Can you give more details of the procedure? 
    And some idea of the success (or lack thereof) that you had.
    
    Steve

    Dry Ice is a very old approach.  My parents had a low delivery well
    over 30 years ago that they treated with dry ice.  It increased
    the flow only marginally, though.  Maybe it works, maybe not.

    We are close to replacing our well motor and pump (1/3 hp Goulds,
    in the basement) for our wash well.
    
    Any recommendations on a knowledgeable individual (or firm) for
    replacing the well motor and pump?
    
    Anyone have any experience with Bob Whitney of Merrimack, NH?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed
    

    QUESTION FOR YOU WELL EXPERTS
    
    I HAVE MY OWN WELL IN MY FRONT YARD. I AM TOLD IT IS ABOUT
    75 FT DEEP. I HAVE HAD PROBLEMS SINCE I BOUGHT THE HOUSE
    3 YEARS AGO WITH BACTERIA GETTING INTO THE WATER. I POUR
    A BIT OF CHLORINE DOWN THE TOP, AND EVERYTHING IS FINE FOR
    A COUPLE OF MONTHS. I ORIGIALLY THOUGHT THE PROBLEM WAS 
    RUNOFF FROM THE HOUSE SEAPPNG PAST THE TOP, SO I DUG AROUND
    THE PIPE SO THAT THE CASING WAS 12 INCHES ABOUT GROUND. I 
    ALSO REPLACED THE CASING( I.E. CAP, I.E. TOP) WITH A HEAVY
    DUTY CAST IRON UNIT THAT IS SUPPOSE TO DO THE JOB, BUT SO FAR,
    I AM STILL HAVING PROBLEMS. 
    
    I CAN TELL IT IS TIME TO PUT A BIT OF CHLORINE IN THE SYSTEM
    WHEN I GET A SLIGHT SULFER SMELL IN THE SHOWER. THE SEPTIC
    SYSTEM IS OVER 150 FT AWAY AND HAS NEVER GIVEN MY ANY PROBLEMS
    SO I DON'T THINK IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.
    
    ANY SUGGESTIONS? I AM THINKING THAT THE PIPE FOR THE WELL
    MAY BE CRACKED AND THAT I MAY NEED TO HAVE A NEW WELL DRILLED.
    
    
    JOHN

    Sulphur smells are often caused by a type of bacteria typically
    found in water with a significant amount of iron.  This bacteria
    is not harmful (I've been told).
    
    Our well had this problem in the extreme, at one point we wondered
    what color the water would be each day: black, grey, yellow, or red.
    We ended up drilling a new well, but  there are other solutions
    involving inhouse chlorination, oxidation, filtration... read $$.
    
    __Rich

    Have you had you water tested lately? Most wells have a small 
    "background" bacteria count that is technically OK (but in my 
    case, too contaminated to pass the well if inspected during a 
    home sale). If the bacteria is Coliform, you can have your water
    tested to see if its actually fecal contamination or seepage
    from your septic system. In the last case, other bacteria will
    show up in the water test which can confirm your suspicions or
    not. In the former case (fecal contamination) it sounds like you
    did everything to try and prevent it....unless there is a dead animal
    in your well (I mean this seriously, actually its very common from
    what I was told when I went though my well ordeals). What ever,
    get professional advice when taking a water sample, it is extremely
    easy to contaminate a water sample, especially one taken from a
    kitchen sink. 
     
    Also, if you believe that your problem is in the line going
    from the well to your house that easy to detect, just take two 
    water samples, one from the well another from your house, the well
    sample should be relatively "clean" or atleast a much lower bacteria
    count.
    					/Glenn Tremblay
    

    When I had a problem with my Goulds pump, I had Wash Well Co in
    Merrimack come and take a look.  (I think that is Bob Whitney's
    Co.)  He was all set to replace the switch assembly ($30 some odd
    dollars just for the switch) when he figured out that a rust buildup
    was clogging the feed to the switch.  All he charged was $15 for
    the service call, but, he also showed me how to clean it.
    
    He said he was the one that had installed the wash well in our house
    8 years ago, so he's been around for awhile.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

  Your problem could still be runoff.  Not sure whether this applies to
  deep wells, but for dug (shallow) wells the first thing you try is sealing
  the top seam or two between the concrete collars (or between the fieldstones
  if the well is walled with stone).  So my guess is that runoff or surface
  water gets into a well somewhere in the top three or four feet.

  So putting a new casing a foot above ground probably doesn't have any effect
  as the "surface" water is really below the surface of the ground.  
  Maybe you should dig down a couple of feet around the pipe and see if there's
  a crack.

  JP

    I'm afraid I have a simular problem.  We just bought our house about
    3 months ago, and had the shallow well tested at the time with no
    problems.  Now, we are noticing a slight sewer-like smell (grose!)
    when we first turn on the tap.  Needless to say, we drink spring
    water.  Both mine, and the neighbors leach field is much to far
    away for that to be the problem, and if it was, I can't see how
    that could happen in just 3 months.  We are having a bacteria test
    done now.  The thought of digging another well, after just buying
    a house is frightning!
    

    It sounds like you need a water test.  I have used WaterTest in
    Manchester, NH twice already.  We have lived in this house 4+ years
    and the first time was to find out why we had a slight sulphur smell.
    The 2nd time was for a refinancing (DCU).  It gives you
    real piece of mind, not only because of possible Coliform bacteria,
    but also for other possible contaminants.  Their basic test for
    some $70 (including return express) includes:  Arsenic, Cadmium,
    pH, Nitrate, Silver, Chloride, Manganese, Hardness, Lead, Nickel,
    Magnesium, Alkalinity, Barium, Chromium, Mercury, Selenium, Fluoride,
    Iron, Sodium, Zinc, Total Coliform, Copper, Potassium, Sulfate,
    Calcium, and total dissolved solids.  The list shows how much your
    well (water supply) tested next to the Maximum Contaminant Levels set
    by the Safe Drinking Water Act or WaterTest's recommended limits.
    
    It turns out that we had some non-coliform bacteria (iron bacteria),
    which is not harmful and we have gotten used to the slight odor.
    
    WaterTest will also do more thorough analysis for other type
    contaminants, such as hydrocarbons (if you live next to a gas station
    for example), etc.
    

    I second getting a water test. I had my water tested by Chemserve
    in Milford, NH. for about $45, which is a small price to pay for
    getting piece of mind. My well water in our new house had 20+ parts
    per million of iron along with some high maganese levels. As a result,
    every time you brought the water up to your mouth to drink, your
    nose would try to jump off your face. I had a couple of water treatment
    people come over my house and give me free advice about how to fix
    the problem, the catch is they want to sell you their equipment
    and some of the prices they were giving me ran from 2800 to 4400
    dollars. Because I'm pretty handy I decided to use their
    recommendations for which type of equipment to get and try a buy
    it cheaper from a plumbing supply house. The bottom line is I purchased
    the recommended equipment for around $1600 and installed it one
    saturday. Our water is great now and I feel the money was well spent.
    

	re .4(?)

	If you have a shallow well, why don't you pop the cover and peer
	on into the well.  You may find a mouse or mole or something like
	that.  I have a shallow well and have had to remove dead moles
	twice before a replaced the top with one that fit better.  Also
	ground water could be getting into the well.  By popping the lid
	and examining it you may be able to figure out what is happening.

	Also it wouldn't hurt to get it tested...

	-gary

The sulfur type smell is hydrogen-sulfate or sulfide.  Its in a gas form
and requires a special water test.  Tell your water test source that you
want to test for this and they should give you two sample bottles.
One for a standard test and another for the H-S.  Fill the H-S
sample bottle completely to the top (NO AIR) and cap it.

I have a 600ft deep well with .27PPM.  I solved the problem with
aeration and activated charcoal filtration (total cost $500).  The smell
is gone and the water tastes fine.  I back-wash the filter approximately
once a year.  After 2 years of use my annual cost are $0.00.  This
level is low!  Most commercial systems are designed to deal with levels
of 1 to 2PPM and industrial systems even higher levels.  If you can, stay 
away from chemical solutions!  Also beware that there are as many solutions
to this problem as there are source available!!!!!!  I had estimates from
$1k to $2.5k.

The source of H-S is decay.  The decay can be simple ,leaching
of bed rock, to complex, industrial pollution.  Pick what ever you want!
H-S is a corrosive in high concentrations otherwise low levels are considered
harmless.
    

    Possible sources of leaks:
    	Around the well cap (you've fixed that, in theory, with a new
	    cap)
    	A cracked well casing (cure: new well, probably)
    	Poor seal between casing and the bedrock (cure: new well, probably)
    	Leak where the "pitless adapter" goes through the casing (cure:
    	    possibly/probably fixable?)
    
    The "pitless adapter" is basically a special elbow that bolts through
    the side of the well casing.  The water line coming up from the
    bottom of the well goes into it on the inside, and the water line
    to the house comes out of it on the outside.  It's generally about
    4' below ground level; take off the well cap and you can probably
    see it.  Maybe the source of a leak?  
    
    Steve

    re .6: >> The bottom line is I purchased the recommended equipment for
           >> around $1600 and installed it one saturday.
    
    What kind of equipment did you install?  Where did you purchase
    it?
    
    __Rich

    I bought all Bruner brand equipment. I liked it because it was the
    only equipment I found with 1" inlet/outlet thus allowing for only
    a slight pressure drop throughout the system. Bruner will also perform
    a free water test and recommend what equipment to install. I bought
    a BR14 iron filter (requires no chemicals and has a large iron removing
    capacity between backflushing), a F10-AN, which brings my PH up
    from around 6.2 to 7.0, and their smallest water softener (forgot
    the model#) to remove any maganese,iron, hardness that was left.
    I bought all the equipment from F.W.Webb in Merrimack, NH. This
    source deals only in wholesale sales, but if you say your building
    a house or something like that and are willing to pay in either
    cash or a bank check, they'll do business with you. You can also
    get the Bruner equipment at Capitol Plumbing in Nashua. It is not
    all that difficult to install. If you can sweat pipe and read
    instructions you'll do fine. Let us know how you make out.
    

The Dry Ice method did make a difference, although not as much as I
would have liked.  My flow doubled from 1 to 2 GPM.

    My fathers house had this problem.  It turned out to be Hydrogen
    Sulfide and a very high iron content.  As .11 did, he had a company
    (in western PA, General Ionics, I think) come out and recommend
    what he needed.  It turned out that he needed
    
    	Chlorinator		Turns the H2S and iron into something
   				that can be filtered (I don't remember)
    	Charcoal filter		Filters the stuff out
    
    	And then a softner	his water was REALLY hard
    
    
    
    The cholorinator has a holding tank in which he mixes about 1 gal
    Chlorine bleach with 20 or so gals of water and a small pump that
    pumps the stuff into the pressure tank when the well pump is running.
    Next the water goes through the filter and then into the softner
    (well, all but one hard water line to the kitchen sink, drinking
    soft water sucks)
    
    
    All told, it cost him somewhere on theorder of $1500.00 (about 5
    years ago)  He hasn't had any problems since it was installed, and
    the chlorine is cheap enough (it lasts about 1 year between fillings)
    
    
    
    -bill

    We're looking into having a well drilled.  Our shallow well
    just doesn't supply us with enough water.  Can anyone suggest
    someone who will handle the entire job, including any sub-
    contracting that might need to be done?  Also, any advice 
    would be appreciated.  We live in Templeton Mass.
    
    Thanks
    Pam
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    There are basically three parts to the job:
    	Drilling the well
    	Digging a trench for the pipe from the well to the house
    	Installing the pump and pipe
    When I got my well drilled, I didn't have too much trouble lining
    up people myself for each of the jobs.  The well driller was available
    within a couple of weeks, if I remember correctly.  After he'd done
    his thing, I called a local guy with a backhoe to come dig the trench,
    and called somebody else to deliver some sand to fill over the pipe
    with.  I also bought some 4" plastic drain pipe to run the well
    pipe through, as protection.
    As soon as I got all that lined up I arranged with a well pump place
    for a time to install the pump, and once again there didn't seem
    to be big problems getting them scheduled.  All in all, it wasn't
    too bad to manage.  Like you, I had a well that mostly worked, so
    I wasn't dealing with an emergency situation.
    For what it's worth, I used E.R. Sullivan in Bolton for a well driller,
    and Scott Associates in Clinton to install the pump and pipe.  I
    thought Sullivan was very good; the people from Scott were adequate
    but not impressive. (Depends on whom you get; they have one guy
    who is really good, but a couple of other people happened to get
    assigned to my job.)
    As far as finding one contractor to take care of everything...I
    don't know of anybody offhand.  You can probably find somebody
    to do it, but I think you'd find that it really isn't that big 
    a deal to handle it yourself assuming you get responsible contractors 
    to begin with.  The two main ones are the well driller and the pump
    person.  You might find somebody out in your area who does it all,
    which certainly would be convenient.  I guess the main thing is
    to ask around and get opinions about who is good.  At your town
    hall, maybe?  My town clerk knows everything about everybody.
    
	Steve

    Since Steve was barely satisfied with his pump person, I'll
    recommend Need Pump company in Sterling.  After they installed
    the pump they let me borrow their big drill for a couple days to
    drill thru my basement wall for my plumbing outlet.  I thought
    that was nice of them since they didn't know me at all.
    
    I also used Ed Sullivan in Bolton, and was as satisfied with them
    as I would have been with anyone.  (I still think that well drillers
    just keep drilling till it's time to go home regardless of when
    they hit water).  
    

    Things at Scott Assoc may be changing due to the death of the head
    of the company.

    May I make a suggestion, believing that it has worked for me. Check
    with your closeat neighbors on the depth and production (gallons
    per minute) of their wells. If your area appears to have alot of
    deep, very low production wells, you might want to consider having
    your well drilled via the old pounding method rather then the rotary
    percussion drilling method. I'm convinced that the extra cost per
    foot is worth it. For example, this past year I built a new home
    in an area where the adjacent neighbors had wells that were in excess
    of 500+ feet deep with all less then 1/2 gallon per minute production.
    All the neighbors wells had been rotary drilled. I decided to have
    my well pounded instead of rotary drilled and my well turned out
    to be 350' deep with 2 1/2 gallons per minute. I admitt that 2 1/2
    gallons per minute is not all that great but it sure beats out any
    of my neighbors. 
     Pounding a well will take about 10 times longer to do then a rotary
    drilled well, and will cost about 3 to 4 dollars more per foot pounded,
    but if the well runs shallower with more production, its more then
    washes out.
    P.S. there are some good discussions about well drilling elsewhere
    in this note file.

    re: .4 - Why do you think that pounding your well was the reason
    you have a shallower well than your neighbors?
    
    

    
    re: .5
    
    I believe this has been discussed elsewhere. Drilling tends to
    produce a smooth, almost polished bore; pounding tends to crack
    the bedrock surrounding the bore, and provide better infiltration.
    

    re: .5, .4
     As stated in the previous entry, pounding shatters its way through
    the bedrock while, rotary drilling bores a nice smooth hole. I happened
    to be on my building site installing the lolly columns in the cellar
    the day the pounding rig started drilling. When he lifts and drops
    that star drill bit, the whole ground shook, like a localized earth
    quake. The bit weighs nearly 3000 lbs and hits with incredible force.
    The ground shaking lessens as the pounder drills deeper. At about
    100' or 150' you don't feel much but the noise of the bit hitting
    can still be heard. I believe that method of drilling has got to
    crack open close water veins that would normally be passed by by
    a rotary drill, thus the extra water sooner. In fact I got most
    of my water in the top 100 ft of the well. I just had him continue
    to 350' so I'd have adequate reserve.

    
    In addition, can anyone list pros and cons comparing artesian wells
    vs. gravel packed?  
    
    I looked through some previous notes, but didn't find much.
    
    thanks
    Pam
    

  Maybe we need to define some terminology.  Here's a first cut -- please
  correct me if I get anything wrong.

  Artesian -- Natural or drilled well in which hydrostatic pressure forces
  well        water to the surface (very few people have an artesian well).

  Deep well -- Drilled well, usually deeper than 32 feet, in which water is
               pumped to the surface.  The pump can be at the bottom or the
               top of the well.  If it is at the top, then it must use what
               is called a recirculating jet pump because atmospheric pressure
               alone won't let you "draw" water up more than 32 feet.

  Shallow or
  Dug well  -- usually 32 feet or less in depth, usually 2-3 feet in diameter,
               faced with stone or concrete collars.
 
  The disadvantages to shallow wells are that they are easily contaminated
  by surface water, by animals falling in, and so forth.  The advantages are
  that they are relatively cheap to dig and the pumps are a bit cheaper.
  Shallow wells of course tend to dry up sooner than deep wells.
  
  There are a couple of disadvantages to deep wells.  They are expensive to
  dig and because the pumps are often in the well, they are vulnerable to
  lightning strikes.  If your pump is at the bottom of the well and it takes
  a lighting strike, it can be very expensive to replace.

  While shallow wells are more prone to surface contamination, deep wells
  are more prone to other types of contamination, like toxic waste dumps
  in the neighborhood.  This is because shallow wells draw their water from
  a much smaller area than deep wells:




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                                           deep well
 


  I don't know whether this is coincidence, but in my town, deep wells 
  always deliver very hard water; usually it's bad enough to require a
  pretty sophisticated filtering system.

  Hope this helps...

  JP

    To some extent the choice of type of well is determined by where
    it's going to be.  If you have solid ledge 5' down there's probably
    no way you'll have a gravel well, for example.  I don't think there's
    any particular advantage of one over the other, except as noted
    in previous replies about contamination, (probable) relative hardness
    of the water, etc.  Of course, the shallow well will be cheaper.
    I'd say, if your terrain permits a shallow well that will give you
    sufficient volume there's no particular reason not to go that route 
    and save some money.
    
    Steve

    
    Thanks again all, for your explainations and suggestions!
    Pam
    
    
    

  Before you go out and get a new well drilled (or until the new well
  gets drilled), there are a couple of things you might try to increase
  the amount of water available.

  Shallow wells can get silted up.  You might try climbing down into the
  well (in the process, you'll learn what they mean by "cold as a well
  digger's feet") and seeing how much mud/sand/silt you can haul out in
  buckets.  If there's any water at all in the well, the volume of dirt
  removed will be replaced by water.

  Often the foot valve in a well is a couple of feet above the bottom to
  avoid getting crud in the valve.  You could try cheating a little bit
  and dropping the intake closer to the bottom.

  JP

    re .0 - don't know how close it is to your area, but we just had
    a well drilled by John Holman, who is Gap Mountain Water Wells in
    Fitzwilliam NH.  I know that he covers a pretty good territory because
    he mentioned being down around Boston shortly before doing our well.

    Concerning choices and research, we had investigated our neighbors, we
    have several with dug wells and several with drilled wells in the area.
    We have lots of ground water but almost everyone we talked to seemed to
    favor drilling if we could swing it, including the contractor who
    would've dug it for us, so we decided to drill. Our closest neighbor is
    also a new house, they drilled a well this summer and ended up drilling
    3 holes and going down something like 600' to get any water.  The
    neighbor above us on the hilltop has a well down about 120' with
    adequate flow, and the one at the bottom of the other side of the hill
    had a true artesian that was difficult to cap because of the flow rate
    when it was drilled, years ago. 
    
    Our results seem ok to me (betterm actually, I'm ecstatic, at least
    until I get the water analyzed):  we drilled 220' with about 20' to 30'
    of casing, and got "approx. 50+ gpm" - the plumber told me he had a
    rough time drilling through the casing for the outlet pipe because the
    water level in the well was 1' above the outlet hole (which is 5.5'
    below ground level) - so we're pretty close to a true artesian! 

    I don't know if the driller should get credit for the quality of
    our well, but we felt good about doing business with him even before
    it was drilled and we certainly can't complain about the results.

    I'm far from being an expert on the subject but it sounds like your
    cut-in/out switch is either defective or way out of adjustment.
    This switch is usually located on the supply line out to the well,
    and just before your storage tank.
    

   I THINK ANYONE WHO IS ABOUT TO DRILL AN ART. WELL OUGHT TO KNOW A FACT
   OF LIFE. THE WELL DRILLER REALLY DOSEN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR POCKET.
    SO YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND DO A LITTLE RESERCH. THE DRILLER
    WILL DRILL A HOLE IN YOUR POCKET IF YOU LET HIM. THERE IS NO NEED
    TO DRILL BEYOND THREE HUNDRED FEET.  THE TECHNOLOGY THAT BROUGHT
    THE ROTORY DRILL ALSO BROUGHT ALONG WITH ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE IT
    CALL HYDRO FRACKING. A WELL DRILLER WILL NOT TELL YOUR ABOUT THIS
    PROCESS BECAUSE IT CUT BACK ON HIS PROFIT. IT WORKS ON THE SAME
    IDEA AS THE CABLE TOOL. IT USES AIR PRESSURE AND WATER TO OPEN THE
    WATER VEINS SEALED BY ROTORY DRILLING. MY NEIGHBOR DRILLED A DRY
    HOLE FOR THREE HUNDRED FEET. AFTER THE DRILLER HYDRO FRACKED THE
    YEILDED 30 GALLONS A MIN. AS A MATTER OF FACT THE WELL HAD TO BE
    SEALED WITH A SOLID CAP TO STOP IT FROM RUNNING OVER. THE MORAL
    OF THE STORY IS THE WELL DRILLER REALLY DOSN'T GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU.
    HE WILL DRILL FOR OIL IF YOU LET HIM. THE AVERAGE PERSON FIGURES
    THE MAN KNOWS HIS BUSINESS. HE KNOWS THE BUSINESS ALL RIGHT AND
    IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL HE WILL GIVE IT TO YOU! DON'T GET ME WRONG
    THERE ARE A FEW WELL CONTRACTORS OUT THERE THAT WILL GIVE YOU A
    FAIR SHAKE. BUT FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM THERE ARE TWENTY THAT WILL
    TAKE YOU TAKE EVERY BUCK YOU GOT AND THEN SOME. IN TWO DAYS A WELL
    DRILLER CAN BE DOWN SIX HUNDRED FEET IN 1985 WHEN I BUILT MY HOUSE
    THAT WAS OVER FIVE THOUSAND $$$$. SO ALL I CAN SAY IS DON'T BE TAKEN
    IN BY THESE GUYS. DO A LITTLE INVESTIGATING BEFORE YOU DRILL. AND
    BEWARE OF WELL CONTRACTORS THAT ADVERTISE "DRILL BEFORE U BUILD".
    
    FOR MORE INFO:
    
    CONTACT JIM MORIN @ NETMAN::MORIN 
    

    
    re: .22
    
    Please don't shout. Give your readers a break and use mixed case.
    Upper case gets hard on the eyes in a hurry.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Stu.
    

    
    
    re: .23
    
    
    I apologize for being loud but I hope the NOTE enlighten future
    home builders that you do not have to spend big bucks to get water.
    
    regards
    
    jim morin
    
    

    re .22
    	Why should we beware of contractors that advertise 'drill before
    u build'????  Wouldn't it be better to know whether or not you have
    water on your property before you invest in house construction?

    
    RE: .25
    
    	You are right about having an ample supply of water before
    construction. You probably have a good size bank account too. The
    one thing a well driller does not want to hear is that you are running
    on a limited budget. Again there are alternatives. I live in the
    Monadnock Region and could have dug a well with no problem. the
    point I am trying to make is this. Most drillers know they have
    the majority of do-it-yourselfers' over the barrel. And if you
    let him, he will drill you broke. Tell me how many note users have
    hired a contractor gone to work and come home the man is down three hundred
    and there is minimal water. comes back the next day drills three
    hundred feet more and there is no inprovement in the flow. Then
    he tells he coming back tommorrow to drill another hundred feet
    so there will be enough water storage in the column. If there was
    water at three hundred the home owner could told the driller to
    take a hike and hired another cotractor that does Hydro fracking
    and probably would gotten more water for half the money. Remember
    these men are in a business that most people know very little 
    about.

    I know what you mean. I built my own house in Boxboro Ma. and hired
    E.R. Sullivan out of Bolton.... I stopped by after a day of drilling
    and I heard "where's the water" How deep I asked, "365 feet, not
    much water yet". Weeelllll at 565 feet they stopped, I had approx.
    2-3 gallons per minute, but was told that my 850 gallon water coloum
    would suffice my needs, as long as I did not water my lawn for extended
    periods of time.... Well I thought the other wells were about 600
    feet, At least I hit water. Last month a contractor built a house
    on the next lot... Went down approx 350 feet with little water,
    the driller WELL TECH brought in their HYDRO FRACTURE machine, the
    result, 30 gallons per minute. Yeah the sucker was expensive to
    use but it was cheaper than a 565 foot well. I wish I had known
    about the HYDRO FRACTURE machine....
    
    
    							Dave
    

    Anyone know the facts about the Copper/Lead issue recently being
    reported on???
    
    I am doing quite abit of plumbing for some newly added rooms and
    noticed that the invoice from SOMERVILLE LUMBER, right below the
    line item for the LEAD-SOLDER, was written "Not Suitable for
    Potable water" or something like that. I have also started seeing
    news reports on LEAD in the drinking water.
    
    For the new rooms, I have started using 100% Tin solder. Seems to
    work as well if not better. A little more expensive though.
    
    Has anyone ever tried to replace their exist connections that are
    LEAD soldered with new, TIN soldered connections????
    
    Looks like alot of work. Infact, I know it will be if I do it.
    
    Should I just continue to run cold/hot water for awhile BEFORE
    each use? Install a timed flush unit (dumps n gallons every x hours)
    at the end of the line?
    
    Any comments?
    
    Mark

  I hope someone can back me up on this.  At the end of the second day 
  of lead solder scare broadcasts, the last thing I heard from National
  Public Radio on the subject was, "This only matters in new housing --
  after a couple of years, all the available lead will have been leached
  out."

  If that is true, it would have been nice if they'd said it first.  But
  it probably wouldn't have sold as many papers...

  JP

    Harken back to high school/college chemistry class -
    
    	Pull a sample over the course of a day, and try the precipitation
    	test for lead.  Not precise, nor even quantiative, but should
        tell whether you have a problem with your plumbing.  
    
    I'll probably run that test one of these weekends (new house, lots
    of what appears to be Sn/Pb joints).
    
    Dwight

    re .2 - it's been been awhile...	:-(
    
    how sensitive is that test?  how does that sensitivity compare with
    acceptable levels for potable water?

>  Public Radio on the subject was, "This only matters in new housing --
>  after a couple of years, all the available lead will have been leached
>  out."

Earlier this year, when I was still living in the Washington area, one
of the TV stations there did a report on this (you know, one of
those week-long things by their "consumer reporter".)  Their conclusion
was basically the same -- that the scare only applied to houses less than
three years old and that in those houses all one needed to do was
run the water for 5 minutes or so each morning before drawing any to drink.


>  If that is true, it would have been nice if they'd said it first.  But
>  it probably wouldn't have sold as many papers...

It was Wednesday or Thursday of the week before they mentioned that it
only applied to new houses.

Frank

    Happened to pick up some supplies this past weekend, all sorts of
    copper elbows, tees, couplings, and the like....bill came to $20.00
    $10.00 of which was spent on SOLDER: 95% TIN - 5% ANTIMONY; meets
    ASTM specs. The supply house said they stopped selling solder
    containing lead all together. For the amount of plumbing I do...it'll
    last forever.
    
    Mark - one of the many weekend plumbers

    re .3 "how many ppm"
    
    	My thoughts were on conducting a QUALITATIVE test only; ie,
    	is lead present.  Given a positive, there then exists positive,
    	that is to say 'clear and present', motivation to spend the
    	time/money in having a professional, certifiable, test performed.
    
    	Credance is given to this procedure by the current attempts
    	to have the minimum limits (Pb harmful to humans) significantly
    	lowered.
    
    Dwight

    How do you do the precipitation test for lead?
    
    Thanks,
    Sue
    

    re .6 - the qualitative test is still not good unless it is sensitive
    to the lowest level of toxicity.  Otherwise, it could give a negative
    (clean) result when there were in fact Pb levels below the test
    sensitivity but above the toxic threshold.  I would consider such a
    false negative result highly undesirable because it would give a false
    sense of security. 

    
    	As a Mass. Licenced Wastewater Treatment Engineer (don't
    ask, I thought I might want to do it for a career, so I took the
    test) I can tell you that finding lead in the 1-10 ppm range is
    difficult to do using Atomic Absorbtion and is damn near impossible
    to do by precipitation.  Drinking water standards are in the part
    per billion range.  I doubt if there is a simple home type test.
    I know that Cambridge Analytical will run a sample for about $50.

    Regarding having a sample taken. I looked into it and they pointeds
    out that the water should be run into a larger container for the
    entire volume of the Pipes in concern so to capture ALL the
    water in the system, THEN draw out a sample. They do this because
    the concentrations will be GREATLY varied depending on how close
    to a connection the water happened to be standing for a long period
    of time.
    
    Mark

Time for a water problem.  Every month or two I get RED water out of one 
of my faucets, as in rust!  The question is where is it coming from?  I 
had had the water tester for iron around a year ago and it was fine.
Could something be building up in the pipes themselves?  It's a little 
too early to make a complete analysis of the situation but when it 
happened last nite it was from a faucet that hadn't been turned on for 
around 4 days.  While the "dirty" water was coming out I turned on 
another and it was clear!  This tells me that the problem couldn't be at 
the well.

Could it be that my water has since gotten higher levels of iron in it?  
I hate to go to the expense to get it tested again, but I fear I may 
have to.

Any thoughts?

-mark

    
    	Does the red water always come out of the hot water tap?  Rust,
    dirt, and other goodies settle out of the water while sitting in
    the hot water tank.  You can open the tap on the bottom of the
    tank and bleed off some water to help clear this up.  I do it every
    month, and my hot water is now much cleaner.
    					=Ralph=

    
    The Water Softening Store in Ayer, Mass will test for iron and heavy
    metals for free.  If it is coming out of the hot water tap only,
    I was told that the heat reacts with the iron causing the cloudy/
    rust color.  The cold water tap on the other hand, will still come
    out clear.
    
    pam

re .1

	If I remember correctly, an earlier note concerning hot water
problems or heaters had a reply that said if your hot water heater was
old and had never been drained then draining may do more harm then good.
I think the problem had to do with leaks once all that crap was disturbed.
If you have an older heater you may want to go back and read that note.

Sorry,  I don't remember which one it was.  Anyone else remember this?

George

re -.1

	The note about flushing hot water heaters is note 350.

George

Good answers but they don't apply.  I have a tankless system, but keep 
the answers coming.  Since it doesn't occur too often, I will have to 
check the hot/cold theory anyways.  I do know that hot water can hold 
more crap in solution, so this could indeed be a clue.

-mark

    
    I'm not sure if this would apply to your situation, but while
    in college, once in a while, dark, red, rusty water would come
    through the pipes... always while in the shower or while
    brushing teeth!  It was a pretty disgusting sight.
    
    After a little investigation, we found out it happened when
    the campus fire department flushed the hydrants.
    
    Could this apply in your case?
    
    d
    

Just shows how much detail one needs to go into...  I have a well, so 
it's a completely self-contained system.

-mark

    RE:.6
    		Just for the record, they flush fire hydrants to remove
    the rust that has settled in the water mains. My father works for
    a water company and they have several areas that need to be flush
    on a regular basis (or by demand of water users when the water gets
    unbearable again). Usually this occurs more frequently in the summer
    when water demand is high and the rust gets stirred out of its settling
    places. 
    							/Glenn
    

    
    We also have a well and had a red-water "incident" a couple
    of days ago.   The system was drained while we were replacing
    our storage tank (bladder broke on the old one).  When we turned
    the water back on, the water was pretty rusty for a while since
    the system got really flushed out.

    I assume you are having no problem with pump over/under cycling?
            
    Also, do you have a water filter with replaceable cartriges?
    If you do, and haven't replaced it lately, check it out.
    The filter may be torn, allowing the iron through.

    						- Don    

    Future fix is to place a inline filter in the cullinary water supply.
    Be prepared to replace the fiber filter a few times before the system
    purges itself. After that try using a activated charcoal filter
    to remove any taste. We had a period of time in Sunnyvale California
    during the drout a few years back. We added the filter to remove
    the grunge from the well water when the city went to the standby
    water supply. (Sunnyvale usually get their water from the San Francisco
    water supply from the Sierras).
    
    /calvin hoe

    Maybe the Red Tide's moved inland for the winter! :-)
    
    -Bob

    I am currently helping my brother in law construct a house in Athol.
    
    I agree with the past several replies about the well drilling
    companies. He had a contract for x$ for three hundred feet and x+y$
    for the 400 hundred max agreed to. Not enough water at 300 feet,
    but more than enough at 400.
    
    Just as a matter of interest the Town of Athol requires not only
    an approved lot plan with septic system, but also a well with TESTED
    water results in hand, before issuing a building permit.
    
    I would suspect that most small towns will be considering this type
    of restrictive building permits (tariff?) to relieve the strain
    on town municipal services, with the upcomming expansion of bedroom
    communities.
    
    Of course, it is nice to know that the water you have is not going
    to kill you.
    
    dana

What's the chances of having a real *artisian* well in various parts of NE?
I.E. a well that water flows out of without pumping...

I imagine that it would be real tough to make your own well...  Too Bad!

Jim.

    Last night's "This Old House" dealt with well drilling.  Catch it
    on Saturday night if you missed it.

    re .29 - I was told that when they drilled for a house the other side
    of the hill from ours they had a stream flowing out of the well for a
    couple of weeks until they were able to cap it - seems that it isn't
    quite usual enough for the necessary capping to be common technology.
    
    our well goes down 220' and when the plumber drilled for the outlet
    pipe he found he was a foot below the water line, so we were pretty
    close to having a "true" artesian well ourselves (but, thankfully,
    not quite like the neighbors).

    We're looking for ways to add on to our house.  One of the more
    reasonable directions to expand (from a structural point of view)
    is to the North.  Unfortunately (?) that's where our well is.
    Is is practical to put a house over the well?  There probably
    will not be much of a basement, due to ledge problems.  What
    kind of access do I need to the well?  The well has a
    submerged electrical pump, and is over 400' deep.
    
    
    		George

    If the well is 400' deep, if (when) the pump dies the repair people
    might need some sort of power puller to lift out the pump.  400'
    of pipe plus a pump is pretty heavy, even if the pipe is plastic.
    In the case of the company I used, they have a rig on the back of
    a truck for pulling deep pumps, which would be sort of hard to use
    if the well were under a house.
    In any case, the pipe sections used for the drop down to the pump
    are (probably) 20' long and semi-rigid, so I expect at least 20' 
    of headroom would be a minimum requirement.  I don't think it would
    bend enough to clear an 8' ceiling.  
    It is probably not a practical idea, unfortunately.  Call up a pump
    company for a better opinion, but I'd say no.
    A question: how did you get away with having the well so close to
    the house in the first place?  Possibly you don't have a septic
    system that it needs to be at least 100' away from?
    

re:-2	I'd be surprised if you could get a building permit to build 
	over your well.

re:-1

>    A question: how did you get away with having the well so close to
>    the house in the first place?  Possibly you don't have a septic
>    system that it needs to be at least 100' away from?
    
Acually, I think its the leach field that needs to be that far away.  
Isn't is?

-mark

    Just got done applying for building permit (garage) - they want
    to make sure that your are NOT building over your well.  It may
    depend on the town, but it doesn't sound like a good idea anyway.

    Yes, the distance of interest is from well to leach field (has to be
    more than 100', at least in Mass.).  I was assuming that the leach
    field was fairly close to the house, probably because mine is, and
    therefore the well would have to be far away.

    Well, I thought not.  By the way, the well is on the North side
    of the house, the leach field and septic are on the south side,
    and not real close (70' or so) to the house, so they aren't too
    close to the well.

    FWIW, a historical note:
    
    I'm told that in the North of England, in the border areas, knights
    and petty nobles built fortified houses (protection against raids
    from the Scots and all that).  They usually had a well inside the
    house, to make sieges and such more difficult.
    
    Of course, we don't have sieges and border raids to worry about,
    and they didn't have building codes...
    
    We return you to your work in progress.
    
    Dick
    

    ...sounds like stories I've heard about where in the olden days
    when the settlers had to fight off the indians....when a member
    of their household died, they would bury them in the celler so
    the indians would not be aware of their diminished strength to
    fight. 
    		...I guess having the well in the house also stopped
    them from poisoning it...
    
    

    	I'm not one to cause alarm, but there's a warning going around
    these days about Radon Gas...  It's gets into your house by way
    of leaks in your basement (up from the dirt)  It hasn't been a problem
    in years past because houses were so drafty the Radon didn't
    accumulate.  Today's houses are very air-tight and this radioactive
    gas has become a subtle health hazard.
    
    	A well in your house would serve as a fine source of Radon gas...
    Just think, after a few years you could read in bed at night without
    a night light!  :-)  
    
    	Makes me wonder if sump pump holes in your cellar can cause
    the same problem?  Doesn't some Citizen's group in Massachusetts
    have a free Radon detector service?
    
    							Don Arey

    
    I did a quick check of keywords (and the notes on wells), and found
    nothing on this, so here goes:
    
    We have a terrible problem with iron in our well water. Not only
    do our plumbing fixtures get stained, but much of our light-colored
    laundry is gradually turning orange.
    
    We have a whole-house water filter, one of those which takes the
    spun-whatever cartridges, but need more. So, what experience do
    y'all have with purification systems specifically made to remove iron
    from water? Brands, prices, sources, can they be DIY installed (I'm
    a reasonably competent plumber), etc., etc...
    
    Stu
    
    

    Check with the Culligan Man. They will lease, rent or sell you a
    unit called a reverse osmosis system that will REDUCE the iron content
    but won't say remove all the iron. The best part about leasing or
    renting for a year is that if it doesn't work, you're not stuck
    with it.
    
    /cal

    Hi Stu -
    	There are various notes in this file concerning water quality
    (I've written a few).
    
        To control (almost eliminate) the iron content of my well water,
    I use a conventional water softener.  Not a reverse osmosis unit,
    which would cost far more for whole-house coverage.
    
        A typical water softener would run $400-700 installed, plus
    occasional addition of salt for the recharging cycle.  Not too cheap.
    
        I believe there are notes in this file that mention units that
    you can install yourself (that is, purchase yourself).
    
        Ny unit came from AF Water in Ayre.
    
    __Rich
    

$400-$700?  does your do the same mine did?  maybe technology has brought the
price down...

when we moved into our last house we had a culligan unit which was about 10 
years old.  the previous owners left us the original paperwork and thay
had spend over 1K to install it.

As rich said, you periodically add salt.  LOTS of it if your unit is old.  We're
talking about ordering it by the TON!!!  That's right, about 40 50lb bags every 
year or so.

With all this, it still wasn't doing such a hot job so we called in the Culligan
man who installed another unit to assist the main one.  This thing was over $300
and had to be fed some chemical that ran around $20 a load.  The good news was
it reduced out salt intake (the surgeon general would be pleased) to around
3 or 4 bags every couple of months.

The one good thing about water softeners it that whenever you want to make ice
cream, you never have to worry about not having any salt in the house.

Why bother with all this?  Besides ruining clothes and scumming up your 
dishwasher, all that iron raises hell with the pipes.  A neighbor who didn't 
want to put in a softener had pipes actually clog up (sort of like hardening
of the arteries!).  It's much cheaper to put in the softener..

-mark

    "This Old House" had a blurb about an iron filter on a recent show.
    It's specifically designed to remove iron.  It adds oxygen to the
    water through a venturi gizmo, oxidizing the dissolved iron and
    precipitating it out in a form that can be caught by the filter.
    Once every x number of days the system backwashes the filter.  It
    looked as though it would be just the thing for dealing with iron.
    No salt, no chemicals.
    I installed a water softener to deal with the iron in my water,
    and it works, but I wish I known about this other system!  

    I am looking into the same problem with our water. We have had our
    water analyzed for about 30 various parameters just to be sure of
    what other problems might exist.
    
    New technology has changed the method of removing the iron. Some
    companies say we didn't need anything special to remove it, and
    a water softener would do the job. The bad thing about water softeners
    is that they do it through ion exchange process which replaces the 
    impurity with sodium. 

    There has been a filter around for a long time called a "manganese
    green sand filter" which was made specifically for removal of iron.
    However, if the unit is not working properly, it could load your
    water up with the manganese. Which isn't great either.
    
    The newest iron filter (which I saw on channel 2's "This Old House")
    uses no chemical as such (there is some kind of filter which must
    be backwashed occasionally). The unit uses air to precipatate the
    iron out of solution. Within the unit there is also a lime filter
    to keep the pH neutral.
    
    The cost for our needs is about $800, if I install it myself. This
    doesn't include the pipe fittings.

    I like it because you are no adding anything to the water, and also
    there is no maintenence required by me once the unit is set up.

    I have a list of six companies who sell and install the unit that
    was on "This Old House". If you are interested send me mail and
    I will supply you with the company closest to you.
    
    BTW the unit name is manufactured by AETNA in Greenfield, MA.
    tel # 413/773-3683
    
    sd

Check out note 468, it might be a help.

Paul

    I too am looking at that very thing. I went down to the Sears store,
    and they offer a FREE test kit. You fill up the bottle, send it
    in in the package provided (postage free), and they send you and
    the closest Sears store the report.
    
    As for their products, They are ALWAYS having sales on their
    water softeners whether they are are marked on the floor as such
    or not. They have a model 30,50,70 series that ALSO does IRON.
    
    I am waiting for my report to come back (2-3 weeks) and if I have
    0.0 - 5.0 ppm of Iron, their softener is all I need. As it has been
    said in the last few responses, their are other types of Iron
    removing products, BUT IRON IS NOT ALL THAT CAUSES HARD WATER (I
    am told). So I hope to get total treatment INCL IRON for under $500.00!!
    (if I install a Sears Model 50 unit which I think is the right one
    but I'll know for sure in a couple of weeks).
    
    More after I hear back from Lab
    
    Mark
    

I had the same problem with my well in Mt Vernon, NH. Had the water tested
after drilling in Sept. '83 and knew the iron was high. Put in an Aqua-pure
iron/rust/dirt cartridge filter and found that mostly I just replaced car-
tridges once a week 'cause they were orange. Same symptoms - orange clothes
and fixtures. (Also tough to cook some things in an appetizing fashion, like
pasta.) We bought bottled water for drinking/cooking for almost two years.
Then last spring I had the water tested again. It was acidic (had been
neutral before) and high in both Ferrous and ferric iron (one's eveidently
the oxidized stuff that the cartridge filter gets and the other is the
unoxidized that stained clothes, etc.) I had the testing done by taking
the sample to a plumbing supply place which sent it to Bruner. Bruner
recommended a two part system - a neutralization filter to raise the pH
and a manganese greensand to oxidize and eliminate the iron. The units
cost me roughly $700 and $900 respectively. I installed them myself in
a weekend, but it does require significant plumbing skills. The greensand
unit has a cycling timer (like a softener) to control regeneration and
backwashing. It does this with KMNO4 (potassium permanganate) which
runs about $5/lb in ten lb bottles, but it only uses a lb every 6 to 8
weeks. I've noticed no manganese in the house water, but you can't draw
when the thing is regen-ing. The neutralizing unit contains marble chips
and supposedly requires a backwashing manually (attaching some drain hoses
and opening/closing different valves and flushing) every so often when
it becomes ineffective. I've done it once since installation but observed
to tangible results. I liked the looks of the system because unlike a
softener it does NOT add anything to the water (like sodium ions).

How did it work? Great for the first three months or so. Noticeable
difference in clothes and fixtures. Then it seemed to slip. Now we're
back to stains again and when you boil water it turns yellow. My guess
is that somehow part of this thing is not functioning, or else our
water has gotten substantially worse (I understand this CAN happen).
I'm having a new sample analyzed and see what Bruner suggests next.

BTW, I saw the system demo-ed on This Old House, also, and thought
highly of it. I'd recommend checking that one out no matter what
you do.

-Jack

    Grainger's sells a backwash type filter specifically for iron and
    sulphur removal for $ 242 - note that it's NOT a water softener.
    The unit works by oxidation and removes up to 20 ppm of stuff.
    
    Henk
    

    I live in Maynard and we have a severe iron problem even though it
    is town water.  I learned the hard way as to why the clothes, dishes
    etc., turn orange/brown.  The cause is due to the use of chlorine
    bleach.  The chlorine causes the iron in the water to oxidize.  I
    learned this when I put in an above ground pool and got some free 
    advice, "Just put it up, make sure it's level, fill it up, throw some
    HTH in and go swimming.".  Two hours after I put in the HTH we had
    7600 gallons of 'iced tea'.  That's when I got some professional help,
    professional pool help, that is.  Anyway, that's what is causing the
    stains.  We use dishwasher detergent that does not have chlorine bleach,
    All and Sun Light, are two that I know of, and Vivid for the washing
    machine.  We haven't any stains.

    I know that doesn't take care of the pipes, but I hope it helps.

    John Di.

    
    re: .9 Where's Graingers?
    
    re: .10 I wondered if bleach exacerbated the problem. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Stu
    

    A few of Grainger's locations:
    
    428 University Ave, Norwood, Mass. 617-762-7375
    
    31 Cabot Road, Woburn, Mass. 617-935-8808
    
    209 Brooks Str., Worcester, Mass. 617-853-7300
    
    370 E. Industrial Park Dr., Manchester, N.H., 603-668-7161
    
    Henk
    

    Well, my report is back. My water had NO IRON (0.0), Low Hardness
    (2.2 grains per gallon gpg) but did have a low PH (6.6) and high
    disolved solids. I am told a water softener is NOW for me.
    
    Anyone have suggestions? I would like to find a 'less than premium
    priced' showroom where knowlegable people work that would allow
    me to buy the unit (what ever it is) and install it myself. They
    all semm to be very leary of homeowner's abilities and hence charge
    an arm and a leg for a simple installation.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    mark
    

    I've read through the other notes on drilling/pounding wells etc.
    but am curious if anyone knows what the minimum recommended gallons/minute
    are for a drilled well.   This would appear to depend on the depth of the
    well and state/town minimum requirements for one; and the amount
    of water your household would need.  I recall reading (not here)
    that an adult uses between 40-70 gallons of water per day.  Some
    notes (re:58) comment that 1 gallon/minute was not enough to satisfy
    that persons needs.
    
    The well I currently own supplies 3.5 gallons/minute which has been
    fine.  I am now in the process of buying a new home with a well
    which is delivering considerable less.
                     
    Thanks,
    Tony

    I think recommended is around 4-5, minimum, but I'm probably wrong.
    What you actually NEED depends on two main things: your lifestyle,
    and how much storage capacity your well has.  If you're into one-hour
    showers with a massage shower head while doing 6 loads of laundry
    and watering the lawn, you'll need a lot.  However, if you are less
    extravagent, spread your water use out over a period of time, and
    have good storage capacity in your well, you can get by with a lot
    less.  "Storage capacity" in a well, by the way, is just the volume of
    water in the well above the level of the pump.  Typically a well
    driller will go some distance below where water first starts coming
    into the well, to provide a storage area.  In addition, water will
    frequently rise in a well above the level where it comes in.  If
    a well has sufficient storage capacity, conceivably you could get
    by with a very low flow rate, if enough water came in during the
    night to meet your needs during the day.
    But to answer the original question: I'd guess 4-5 gpm minimum.
    
    

    Life style does have a lot to do with it but the bottom line is
    usually what the bank requires. Most banks use the FHA "standard"
    of 4 or 5 gallons a minute, but it's figured as 4 or 5 gallons a 
    minute for four hours. So the FHA requires 4x60x4 or 960 gallons 
    in four hours.

    Let's figure my wells capacity:    

    My well is 525 feet deep, the pump is near the bottom, the static water
    level is about 15 feet from the top. So when full, I have about 500
    feet of storage in a 6" hole which is 500 x 1.5 (1.5 gallons per foot
    in a 6" hole) or 750 gallons of storage. The water fills the hole at
    about 1.5 gallons a minute (according to the well driller) so during
    four hours I get an additional 1.5x60x4 or 360 gallons. Add that to the
    storage of 750 yields 1110 gallons in fours hours which is above the
    FHA standard of 960 gallons in four hours. 

    Personally, since it was a marginal well as far a water rate goes, I
    think the well driller stated the water filling rate at 1.5
    gallons/minute knowing that the numbers would work for the FHA
    requirement. 

    Charly

    Thanks, now I can compare my current home water capacity to the
    new house.  If the new well exceeds or equals the new house I will
    feel relieved.  The new well is deep (700') but the rate is still
    being determined.  It will most likely be between .5 gal per minute
    to 2 gal per  minute.  The low rate had me concerned.  The builder
    needs at least a .5 gal per minute rate to meet the minimum town
    requirements for an occupancy certificate.
    
    Tony

    re:.3
    
    Another member of the 700-plus foot well club!  Mine is 705'.  Maybe
    another few feet...
    
    I was under the impression that 3 gal/min is the minimum rate w/o
    worrying temporarily running dry.  Of course, as stated in earlier
    replies, lifestyle does have a lot to with it.  However, it would
    be nice to water your lawn occasionally...
    
    Have you thought about hydro-fracting to try and increase you water
    rate?  There is some discussion on this elsewhere in this conference,
    I believe.  Essentially, hydro-fracting tries to open up smaller
    veins of water that might have be clogged during the drilling process.
    I've heard of forcing compressed air down the well to "blow open"
    these cracks.  I know someone whose well went from ~1 gal/min to
    6 gal/min after this.  There may also be another method where dynamite
    is lowered into your well in an effort to "stir things up."

    Good luck!
    
    Bill

    re:.4
    
    Yes, as we speak something of that sort is going on at the new well.
    My builder was going to keep drilling, but has changed his mind
    and got rid of the well driller and hired somebody to "Hydro Blast"
    as he called it.  I think he ment Hydro Fracture.  I'm not too greedy,
    2 gal/min would be acceptable.
    
    I will let you know how it turns out.  After reading the Well notes
    I feel optomistic.
    
    Thanks
    Tony
    

    The Hydro fracting machine was able to get the water rate up to
    1.5 gal/min.  It originally started out at 1 gal/min and by the
    time it was tested was down to 1/2 pint/min.  The static water level
    is 15' from the top of the well which gives me at least 600' to 650' of
    water.  All that adds up to 900 gals + 360gals/4hours or 1260 gallons
    of water available
    every 4 hours.  I was hoping for a 2 or 3 gallon per minute fill
    rate.
    
    Knowing that some of you are getting along on 1.5 gallons/minute
    is helpful.   The hydro fracting guy said that I should not have
    a water shortage problem, and guarantees that rate for a year.
    
    
    Thanks again for your advice,
    Tony

    Spring has sprung and it's time to get out the rakes and lawn mowers
    and fertilizer.  I have a question on fertilizer's with insecticide
    mixed in.  I was wondering if it's ok to use this fertilizer near
    a 20 ft. surface well.  I have a nice colony of ants I'd like to
    dispose of but at the same time I don't want to dispose of my 
    drinking water or anyone that drinks it.  Any ideas?
    
                                                    dave

    
    forget the fertilizer!  spend your money on a hammock, which you
    will be able to use more frequently if your lawn doesn't grow as
    fast!

    I'd be somewhat cautious about doing this broad cast type of
    application near a dug well. When doing the same near a public well
    an applicator must stay either 250' or 400' away depending on whether
    it is a gravel pacyed well or not. On private wells I'd stay at
    least the normal distances that what apply to pollution control
    of a well from a leach field/septic tank situation, usually 100'/75'.
    I'd advise against the broadcast type of application. If you must
    treat for ant control, try and spot treat with a portable sprayer.
    This method will substantially reduce the amount of total chemical
    being applied to the adjacent areas.
    

    If you like to mow your lawn more often then apply in the spring,
    otherwise take a tip from pro landscapers and do it right before the
    dry season.  I know this is contrary to what the companies say, they
    would really like to see you apply twice a year to increase their
    sales.  BTW, a reason given for fall application is often to build up
    roots.  Nitrogen is the primary ingredient of most lawn fertilizer
    and potassium is what builds roots, nitrogen makes leaves (blades
    in this case).

    re .3
    When you say "right before the dry season", do you mean mid-late
    June?  I would think that would cause a lawn to burn. Spring and
    Fall feedings are what I've always heard.            

    
    I just installed a softener myself that I bought from AF Water in
    Ayer.  They suggested I could install it myself and were very helpful.
    I bought the smallest capacity unit which cost me about $480.  Their
    installation charge is $130, but for $70 they sold me the bypass
    valve setup (two ball valves and a globe valve plus couplings) and
    set it up for installation.  You have to supply a 110 outlet and
    a drain.  They also explained to me the tricks they use in installing
    the unit in the supply line, consisting of a handful of elbows and
    street ells.  You cut a short section out of the line and insert
    the unit.  The only thing slightly tricky is using the low-lead
    (95/5) solder required in Massachusetts, which doesn't flow very
    well.  You need a torch with a turbo tip that can generate 3000F.
    
    For the record, I, too, thought I had an iron problem.  Reddish
    brown deposits in the toilet bowls, the dishwasher stained brown.
    Lately, I started getting what looked like sand in the bathtubs,
    and the stuff was plugging up the aerators and the filter screen
    in the washer.  A prior water test, plus the free testing done by
    AF, showed no iron or manganese in the water.  The people at AF
    asked questions which made me realize the sand was coming from the
    hot water line (only the hot water filter in the washer was plugging).
    The diagnosis was hard water (6 grains) and HIGH Ph.  For some reason,
    the high Ph causes precipitation of minerals when the water was
    heated.  The long term effect:  plugged heater loop and boiler tubes.
    The water softener takes care of the hardness and can also remove
    up to 2 ppm of iron.  I'm hoping this will cure both of my complaints.
    I'm still cleaning out the toilet flush tanks with Iron Out, so
    it's still too early to tell.
    
    	--dave
    

    Thanks for all the info and suggestions folks.  Esspecially you,
    Steve, the only thing you left out was the beer that goes along
    with the hamock.  Anyway I've got a good tip for everyone with
    questions on fertilizer.  Scott company has a toll free
    number specifically set up to answer questions their customers
    may have on the use of their products.  I got the number from a
    salesman at service star hardware store.   (1-800-543-turf).
    I'm going to give them a call and see what they have to say.
    I'll let you know if they say anything worthwhile.  bye for now,
    
                                                             Dave 
    

I need to temporarily disconnect my well as I'm having a foundation put across
the current line.  I've already found someone who will come out, disconnect it,
temporarily reconnect it and once the foundation is in, permanently connect it
for a few hundred bucks.

However, I've been thinking about it and wonder if it's really necessary to get
someone in at all!  After all, all that comes out of the well is a power line 
and a hose.  One would think a simply splice would do the trick.

Has anyone had any experience with well, pumps, etc?  Is it much of a job?  I
wouldn't mind blowing 1/2 day or so if it will save me the money.  However, I
wouldn't want to have to spend a whole weekend on it.

-mark

    Cleaning with IRON OUT? What is IRON OUT and where can I get some?
    I assume it is a powder that removes iron stains?
    
    mark
    

    It dosent sound that hard if you feel like you can do it give it
    a try.
    Be sure to pull the breaker when working with the power.
    
    If the pump for the well is in a pit be very careful as they often
    have oxygen displacing gasses in them. My cousin died two years
    ago in a well pit. Seems there was a large amount of co2 built up
    there. He was working alone and dident have anyone around to notice
    he was in trouble.
    So be careful.
    
     
    
    -j

    I've done it.
    
    
    At my fathers house, we moved the pipes around when putting in the
    french drain.  Make sure that you use UF wire, and splice in what
    you need.  
    
    
    You can either replace the whole mess from the well cap, or splice
    in.  The pipe is usually (if it's a newer installation) plastic
    so all you need is some STAINLESS STEEL hose clamps and a couple
    of couplings.  (you need more if it's a shallow well with a pump
    in the house and not a submersible pump)
    
    
    -bill

Sounds reasonable...

I'm assuming that if I cut the pipe where it enters the house, I'll be able
to reuse it since I'll be effectively moving the pressure tank 12 feet closer
to the well.

What I'm really interested in is what to do as a temporary measure while digging
the cellar hole and waiting for the concrete to harden.  When I had called a 
well person he had said he would run a temporary electrical cable and hose from 
the well head to the pressure tank.  What I'm wondering is are these normally
spliced at the well head and therefore can I easily put in my own bypass?  If
so, I assume I'd have to buy around 100' of plastic hose (sounds like big 
bucks).  Any alternatives?  I might be able to use garden hose, but wouldn't 
that leave my water tasting like crap for a whole month?

If I pop off the cap on the well head, what exactly will I see?

What if I simply let the backhoe dig up the pipe and assume I'll be able to
splice in a small piece where the break is.  This could be risky if the pipe
breaks in the wrong place.

-mark

    I bought 100 ft. of 1/2 inch plastic hose (stiff black stuff) at
    Spags last night for $8.99.
    

    What I'd do is this:
    
    
    Buy enough of the flexible plastic pipe to do the job and then add
    a few feet.  When you first break ground, where the pipe will be
    exposed, I'd dig back a few feet on both sides (if you can) and
    then splice in the new pipe.  Then dig up the well head and run
    a temporary wire from the house out to the well.  At some point
    you're going to need to deal with the real wire, but you may be
    able to do a splice.  (I don't know about that one, being that 
    it's under ground,etc.  BUT It must be done, cause people dig up
    the well wire/pipe all the time with backhoes)
    
    
    The well head is usually just a flat piece of metal that seals the
    top of the well casing.  It has a fitting for the water supply pipe
    and a connection for wire. (this is for a submersible pump system,
    shallow wells differ slightly)  The pipe/wires inside the wells
    connect to the inside of the cap, the pipe/wires outside connect
    on the outside.  It really isn't all that complicated.  The worst
    part is finding the damned thing.  Some houses haven't marked where
    the well is, and if you can't find the person who installed it (or
    they can't remember) you're in for a search.  (of course the easiest
    way is to dig up the complete pipe from the house, at which point
    your splice  ends up being a complete pipe replacement)
    
    
    I don't think the flexible plastic pipe is all that expensive. 
    Check around, you might be able to get a good deal.
    
    
    -bill

    
    As I mentioned somewhere else in this file, using IRON OUT
    or any of those horrendous caustic chemicals isn't entirely
    necessary.
    
    I removed stubborn iron stains from the toilet bowls/tanks
    and the inside of my dishwasher (it looked as if someone
    had run the dishwasher while an open can of brown paint was
    inside!) WITH TANG INSTANT BREAKFAST DRINK.
    
    This is not a joke.  Invest in a jar of TANG, dump it into
    the toilet and let it sit for a while.  Then flush a few
    times.  You'll notice a big difference!  It only took 2
    cycles on my dishwasher to get the baked-in brown goop out
    of my dishwasher.  My dishwasher went from brand new lily-
    pure white to barfo brown in less than a year.  But I fixed
    that!

    
    I also wouldn't drink TANG now if my life depended on it...
    

    I wouldent suggest trying to make the splice underground. It will
    be close to impossible to get a good connections and then seal it.
    You would have to use one of the epoxy sealers designed for the
    purpose. 3m makes them and they are sold only thru wholesale
    as far as I know. The best choice would be to run a new wire to
    the pump along the new route and do the job in one shot.
    You wouldent want to leave the wire where it is anyway by the sound
    of things..
    
    -j
    

    The pipe should be no problem, assuming it's plastic.  Decide where
    you want it cut (DON'T just let the backhoe tear it up!!!), and
    you can splice in a new piece easily with a connector and ALL
    STAINLESS STEEL INCLUDING THE SCREWS hose clamps.
    
    The wire is a bit more of a pain.  They use a special goop to
    waterproof the splices (at least the people who installed my pump
    did) and I don't know if you could get a truly waterproof joint
    any other way.  If all you want to do is the temporary hookup you
    can probably get buy with rubber tape (not plastic, the gooey rubber
    stuff), but if you're talking about burying a splice for 10 or 15
    years, I've got doubts.  The wire may run inside its own plastic
    pipe from the well.  If so, can you disconnect the wire inside the
    house, cut the pipe the wire is in (but not the wire) outside the
    house, then pull the wire out?  Later on you can splice that pipe
    the same as you do the water pipe, and put the wire back.

    You can get Iron Out at Spag's (of course....)
    

    I doubt that the wire will be in a seperate pipe.  Most of the well
    installations that I've seen have the wire taped to the water pipe
    about every foot or so.  I think that's just to keep it in place
    while it's being burried.
    
    
   -bill

Sounds like it won't be all that bad.  As it stands, the situtation is this:

	|	|
	|
	|	|
  tank	|-X------------------------------------------------well
	|	|
	|
	|	|

    current    new
      wall     wall

It sounds like I should be able to cut the wire/pipe at location "X", pour my
new foundation and have enough left over so I won't need a splice.  Sounds like
I should probably get around 20-30 feet of pipe so I can temporarily route it 
around the forms and then throw it away when ready for the permanent connection.

-mark

    Iron Out is a cleaner for water softeners.  It or another brand
    should be available in the plumbing section of most hardware stores.
    I got mine at Robinsons in Hudson MA.  The box says it can be used
    to clean porcelain and fiberglass surfaces.  So far I have done
    the toilet flush tanks and the dishwasher.  The inside of the
    dishwasheris now a sparkling white instead of brown-black.  The
    stuff contains bisulphites so you will notice a slight rotten-egg
    odor while it is working, but that goes away with a flush or two.
    
    
    	-dave
    

    re: .8
    I determined that the chemical injection portion of the regen cycle
    on my conditioning filter was not sucking any KMnO4 solution from
    the regen tank into the greensand to replenish the oxidizing capacity.
    With the help of the serviceman I found that the venturi in the
    valve body was clogged. Cleaned it out with some fine wire and
    reinstalled it and it is now working like a charm. Previously, a
    cup of tap water when boiled in the uwave would tune yellow-to-orange.
    Immediately after a single cycle once the rgenerant had been circulated
    I was able to obtain a cup of boiled, crystal clear water.
    Problem solved!
    
    -Jack
    

    put boric acid on the ant pile and they will leave.  Don't know
    what it will do for the water but its got to be better than an insect
    spray.

    Does anybody have experiences to share about hydro fracture for
    an artesian well? My friend has an artesian well with 1 quart of
    water per minute. The well is 800 feet deep. 
    
    Needless to say, she runs out of water very quickly. One wash per
    day can do it. Is it worth the $2000 someone has quoted? Any other
    people in the same (dry) boat?
    
    Thanks for any info,
    
    Stel
    

    See notes 58, 439, 512 and 1049.
    
    -al

    	I am looking to purchase a pump so that I can use water in a
    well that is under my house.  I have a pipe in the cellar which
    is the access to the well.  The bottom of the well is about 13 feet 
    down, and the water seems to be about 6 feet deep.  I would ideally
    like to be able to pump the water up to a maximum of around 70 to
    100 feet with enough pressure to run a sprinkler, wash cars, etc.
    
    	I live in Dedham, where for the past 5 or 6 years, there has
    been a water ban due during the summer months.  (No outside watering
    at all, or possibly on evry other day).  Besides that, with increased
    lawn/gardening activity, my water bills are starting to hit the
    $75 range for 3 months (not alot maybe, but I just hate to pay water
    bills).
    
    	I shopped around briefly 3 years ago when I bought the house,
    but stopped when I got the idea that it was going to be around $300.
    
    	Any idea what I should be looking for as far as features,
    manufacturers, price range?  Anyone know a good place to shop around
    in the Dedham area (or South Shore/Boston area).  I would love to
    be able to pump water all day on lawns and gardens, keeping evrything
    green.  (Of course then my electric bill goes up, right.)  Which
    reminds me, would such a pump make a noticeable difference in an
    electric bill if used frequently?
    
    	Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    
    	Ben

      The horizontal distance you wish to run the water doesn't really
    make any difference (within reason). The difference is in the height
    the pump must lift the water. From the sound of it all you need
    is the cheapest system. A straight lift-type pump and some kind
    of storage tank. The tank would not have to be big for your use.
    Try looking in the Sears catalog for ideas. They have many types
    of pumps and have specs. ect that should help you decide what you
    need.
    
    					Kenny

    If the water is only 13' down, you can use a shallow well pump.
    As suggested in .1, you can probably get by with the cheapest
    system you can find.  (Of course, you want one good enough so it's
    not breaking down all the time.)
    A good brand is Gould.  They sell all kinds of well pumps.

    I don't think you can expect to water grass/lawn/cars all day.
    The dug(shallow) well on our property was once the only water supply
    for the house. It runs dry after 1 1/2 - 2 hours. I don't know what
    the recovery time is for the well.
    

    	I have a shallow well with an access in my cellar through a
    2" pipe which protrudes about 2 feet above the cellar floor.  The
    water level is about 10' below the cellar floor and the water appears
    to be about 6' deep.  I bought the house 3 years ago and have not
    done anything with the well, since we have town water.  The previous
    owners had a pump which they used for watering lawns, washing cars,
    etc.  
    
    	I purchased a small utility pump to do the same thing, water
    grass, wash cars, etc.  My problem is that after about 10 to 15
    seconds, the pump sucks air.  I imagine the water level (either
    in the pipe or well, or whatever is down the pipe) immediately drops
    and does not replenish itself fast enough to keep pace with the
    pump.  My guess is that after 3 years of no use, that the source
    of water to my pipe access is clogged or something.
    
    	Any idea if there is some kind of regular maintenance which
    needs to be performed on a well like this to keep the water flowing.
     Do I need to call someone to have it reemed?  If so, any suggestions
    in the Boston, South Shore area....can I do it myself with a snake,
    could it have run dry on me, etc., etc., etc?
                                 
    		Ben

    You may have a bad foot valve that isn't letting water through,
    except slowly.  They usually stick open, but yours may be stuck
    shut.  The foot valve (assuming you have one) will be at the
    bottom of the pipe coming up out of the well.  Pull the pipe up
    and investigate.  (by-the-way, the purpose of the foot valve is
    to maintain water in the pipe, so the pump doesn't lose its prime
    when it's shut off.)
    It may be easier to just put in a new piece of pipe.  Measure the
    depth of the water in the well, and try to arrange things so the
    bottom end of the pipe is about a foot above the bottom of the well,
    so it doesn't pick up muck and crud.  For your situation, if the
    pump you have is self-priming and can self-prime with a 10' lift,
    you won't even need a foot valve.
    There is nothing complicated about a shallow well or its plumbing.
    The well is a hole filled with water and the plumbing is a pipe
    hanging down into the water.  Unless the pipe is blocked or a lot
    of crud has fallen into the well and filled it up you shouldn't
    have to do any maintenance.
    
    One possibility: be SURE you don't have an air leak in the line
    from the well to the pump.  Even a small leak can cause all kinds
    of grief in getting the pump to work properly.

    
    Is it possible that there is a rock ledge under your house?
    
    When I was a kid, my folks moved out of their house for two
    months while we stayed at a summer camp they had.  With no
    water being pumped through the well, there was a shifting in
    the ledge that the piping was drilled through and the water 
    supply was cut off.
                                                 
    Hope that's not the case.
    
    Shane
    

    	When I was first having the trouble, I pulled the pump out (self
    priming, good for 20' down) and tested it in a pail and a cooler.
     The lines are tight and the pump works great.  
    
    	As far as a foot valve, I would guess that I don't have one,
    however, if I do, and it is stuck almost closed, that would cause
    my symptoms.  The pump extracts about as much water as you would
    figure to be in 6' of 2" pipe and then sucks air.  If you shut if
    off and wait awhile, it will do the same thing.
    
    	Pulling the pipe is probably the first thing I have to do. 
    Unfortunately, the pipe is anchored in my concrete cellar floor.
     Is there anything I can try before I pull the pipe (hacking up
    the floor, indulging in what sounds like at least a full day project)?
    
    
    	Ben

    It is unclear to me whether the well can be accessed (i.e. the well
    is in the open) or whether the well is *really* underneath the cellar
    floor.  If the latter I can't help. 
    Our stone dug-well is about 15 feet from the house. There are about
    two feet of well above the ground and a stone-cemented well cover.
    There is a hose that runs from the pump in the cellar,through the 
    foundation (several feet under ground),comes out into the well 
    horizontally and makes a vertical  drop down into the bottom of 
    the well. The foot valve -along with some screening to prevent muck
    and stones etc- is attached to the bottom of the hose a foot or so
    above the bottom of the well. In such a situation  accessing the\
    foot valve is easy. Just take the top off of the well, pull up 
    the hose and replace the foot valve drop it back in the well and
    you are in business.

    It may be that you have a hole in the pipe somewhere below the normal
    resting water level. As you pump out the water you drop the level
    in the pipe and the level in the well. The well level when pumping
    will probably fall exactly to bottom of the hole in the side of
    the pipe.

    If the pipe is steel or even copper the hole could have developed
    due to corrosion at some previous resting water level that may have
    been below the current resting level.
    
    Find a way to pull up the pipe or try getting a temporary hose down
    to test it out.

    Nick

    The easiest thing may be to forget about the pipe altogether and
    just drop a short length of garden hose down the well when you want
    to pump water.

    	I just so happens that I have a neighbor who supposedly help
    the previous owner of my house set up this well.  I don't know if
    that means that he dug the well, or just put the pipe in.  I think
    my best next move would be to talk to him and find out just exactly
    what the setup is.  Where is the well, where does the pipe go, is
    there any access to my well other than the pipe, etc.
    
    	The only thing I see in my yard is about a 1' diameter opening
    in my back yard with a cover on it.  The cover is only 5" or 6" 
    above the ground.  To the best of my knowledge, that is only a 
    vent for the water drains coming out of my house. However, it may turn 
    out to be more than meets the eye.   
    
    	Thanks for all the help.  I'll return to this note after I talk
    to my neighbor who built this thing.
    
    		Ben

    I've been in my new home for about 10 months and I was wondering
    how other peoples well are doing? My well , when installed last
    May, is a low production well - 2 3/4 gals per minute. This past
    weekend I ran out of water while running the garden hose for about
    15 minutes. My well is 382' deep and had a static level of 6' below
    groundlevel when installed. I recently remeasured the static level
    and it has dropped to about 75'. I'm sure the weather has contributed
    to the lowering of the static level but what I'm wondering is....
    is this a bad, good, normal year as wells go? If its a normal year
    I can expect to have to conserve each year in the future and may
    investigate using alternative supplies of water for gardens, car
    washing etc.,. If it's a bad (dry well year) maybe I can tolerate
    the situation this year expecting it will likely improve in the
    future. Well how is your well doing?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    I too have a low production well, 6 years old, 525 feet, 1 to 1 1/2
    gallons/minute, static level is probably 50 to 100 feet. No problems
    for the first 4 years. Last year, Memorial day weekend and this year
    (same weekend!) we ran out. Both cases were surprising in that we
    hadn't been using more water than we normally do. 
    
    So maybe we have come upon a couple of "dry" years as far a "deep"
    wells go. My well driller was telling me that, the type of year we are
    currently having doesn't have an immediate effect on deep wells but
    rather the previous 5-10. It takes that long, or longer, for the
    ground water to work it ways down into the deep rock. He also told
    me that my well water probably fell on the side of Mt. Wachusett
    several years back. I live about 10-15 miles south east of there.

    By the way, I have since hook up to town water and now have the luxury
    of clean well water from my kitchen sink and icecube maker and town
    water for everything else. I also have a couple of valves that I can
    turn and use all water or all town water.
    
    Charly 

    re .-1
    The comment in the last note about two water sources reminded me
    of a comment the Board of Health officer in our town (Acton Ma.)
    made about my water supply. Bottom line, our private well must
    be *completely* isolated from the town water supply.! The town must
    rigorously monitor the quality of the water that is sent out into the
    town pipes. If a private well of unknown purity were capable of sending
    water into the town piping system, that could contaminate the town
    water.
    Is your well water isolated from the town pipes? I think that means
    can your kitchen and ice maker *only* get water from the well? and
    there is no way to get kitchen water from the town?
    Maybe laws are different in your town?
    
    				curious
    				herb  

    I hear what you're saying and agree. My well is piped to the cold water
    side of the kitchen sink (ice maker taps into that). The town water
    system is piped to the hot water heater and all of the other cold water
    faucets. 
    
    The two systems are seperate except for an "interconnect valve" between
    the two that is normally closed. I can shut off the feed from either
    the well or the town system and open the "interconnect valve" to supply
    all fixtures from one source. 
    
    As added saftey features, the well has ckeck valves to prevent
    backflow, the town water goes through a pressure reducer which also
    functions as a  check valve, and the town water is over 100 psi
    compared to the well's 20-40 psi. 
    
    By-the-way, the town water dept was there yesterday to hook up the
    permanent water meter. They saw my piping system and commented,
   "Oh, so you have two water systems now..., With the pressure we're
    pumping down here, there won't be any problem with this". 

    Charly

    I was looking into Hydrofracting once, and as I understood it, you
    usually get a guarantee from the contractor that if it (fracting)
    doesn't increase water yield to an agreed upon amount, there is
    no fee. Last I heard average fee was about $1300. I have heard of
    instances where it worked great, had no effect, and even one where
    it closed off the existing water passages to where the well was
    rendered useless. It's a crap shoot. I believe most times, though,
    it works quite well (no pun intend). This 800' well you mention
    must have a very low static level. Normally, such a deep shaft will
    store over 800 gallons of water if the level was up to 50' or so.
    With that much storage 1/4 gal/min would be adequate, since the
    well could recharge at night.

This topic does not seem to have been broached yet...

I have a shallow well and a single pipe pump system, a Goulds 1/3 HP with
a preesure tank with a seperate air bladder in the tank.  I installed this
myself several years ago to replace a failing brand-x pump.

However, I could never get the air leaks out of the suction line.  There is
still a little bit of air coming in with the water.  I even replaced
the pipe (1-1/4 inch plastic) and ran it above ground to check for leaks.
An air leak would presumably be a much slower water leak when the pump is not
running and the suction line is under pressure.  No leaks.

Well, I gave up and resigned to having slightly less pressure (since even
the smallest amount of air reduces the capacity of the pump).  Also, since
the pressure tank isolates the air and water, the air gets into the water
system and results in an occaisional burp.

Other info:    There are several connections, with stainless hose clamps,
all are as tight as can be.  The lift from the water level to the pump is
about 20 feet.  The foot valve is submerged in several feet of water even
in the dry spells (about 200 gallons worth).

1) Does anyone have any ideas on how to locate an air leak?

2) Is it possible there is no leak, but that the air is being sucked out of
   the water?

3) My possible solutions I've considered are:

   1.  Replace the pipe *again*.  Not unless someone can assure me that
       the pipe is leaking.

   2.  Take apart the connections and seal them with some yet-to-be-determined
       substance.

   3.  Call in a professional who will charge me $$$ but fix the problem.

   4.  Trade in the single suction pipe for a two-pipe system (my pump is
       adaptable for that).  Such a system is less prone to air leaks since
       the outer pipe is always under pressure to drive the jet.  Again, I
       would not consider this unless I was convinced it would solve the
       problem.

Any suggestions?  Does anyone else have a single-pipe shallow well pump?
            --tom

	Is it a jet pump or a deep well pump?  I was having problems
	with my shallow well and replaced the jet pump with a Gould
	deep well pump.  What a difference...

	-gary

    
    	 I had a similar problem several years ago and your story 
    	sounds like a repeat of what I did. My problem turned out to 
    	be one of the pipe connections between the pump and the well 
    	that would only leak when the pump was on. If you are only 
    	getting small air bubbles and it makes no difference how long 
    	the pump has been idle then you may have the same problem. Try 
    	sealing up all of your connections with a chalking compound 
    	that is safe for use with drinking water. If you go crazy and 
    	glue all your connections and that doesn't work then you will 
    	have more problems trying to un-glue the connections.
                                                 
    	Glenn

    Re: .1:  May be a leaking pump seal.
    
    How do I tell?  Is there any way to check out the seal?
    
    
    Re: .2:  Try a jet pump.
    
    Thanks for the recommendation.  Yes, mine is the single-pipe shallow
    well type pump.  I can buy the jet pump adapter for it and have
    it installed; at less than 20 feet it wasn't supposed to be needed.
    
    But with your success story, I would probably consider it!
                     
    
    Re: .3:  Glue.                                          
    
    I agree.  Ughh!  And it sounds like a not-guaranteed solution.
    
    
    
    Does anybody have any ideas on how to locate *where* the air is
    entering?  If I knew that, I could make a better idea of what to
    do.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions...
             --tom
    
    

    this is kind of a late input, but i recently (end of june) had mine
    done.  there were no guarantees, and the cost was $900. i ended
    up wiht about 3 gasl/min, so it was worth it.  a neighbor also took
    a gamble, nd doubled his output.  i used skillings of chelmsford.
    
    its worth the gamble when you consider the cost of a new well.

    Just moved into a home which has well water.  I have never
    had a well before and I am curious as to how it works.  The
    realtors explanation was somewhat lacking.  My questions
    concern not how the water reaches the house, (the pump part
    I understand) but how does the water get to the well itself.
    
    Since all of the houses in the area have well water, are we
    all pumping from the same source?  How does the water keep
    flowing into the well and what makes the well occassionally 
    run dry?  I would appreciate any comments you may have since
    I know so very little about this subject.
    
    P.S.  If this topic is covered in any previous note, please
          point me to it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    
     
    
    
    

    What an appropriate name!
    
    
    A well is just a hole drilled in the ground.  There's usually a
    piece of pipe pushed down for the first 'n' feet to keep the topsoil
    and other ground from falling into the well.  It also keeps groundwater
    (which could be contaiminated) from getting in. When the well is drilled
    (or hammered) the driller allows for a certain number of feet of
    water in reserve in the well.  (for instance, say your well is 100
    feed deep, you may have 30 feet of water in the well)  
    
    then, they pump the well dry and see how long it takes for the well
    to recover.  If it doesn't recover at least 1 galon per minute,
    they will drill deeper to allow for more recovery (as well as more
    reserve)
    
    
    The water comes from the water table.  The amount of water your
    well can produce (recovery) is dependent on the amount of water
    in the ground and the surface area of the hole in the ground.  This
    is why a deeper well (with the same water source) can recover faster.
    
    
    

    Just a few more notes,
    
    The water gets into your well from an underwater reserve and
    passes through cracks in rocks or porous material. You do share
    this water reserve with others, this is a good reason to be
    concerned about toxic chemicals leaking into the underground
    water reserve. The water reserve is replenished by slow seepage
    of rainwater and sometimes by leaking gas station tanks and the
    like. 
    
    Underground structures sometimes cause strange flow of the
    reserve, sometimes you get nice mountain rain, sometimes your
    neighbors septic tank.  The vast majority of supplies have no
    health problems.  The ground is very good at filtering out
    biological containments but not very effective against chemical
    pollution. 
    
    Sometimes the waterflow is not good enough due fairly solid
    rock, a driller sometimes treats the well with acid or
    explosives to increase the number and size of the cracks
    in the rock.
    
    - gerry 

    There are two types of wells, shallow wells and deep wells (artesian).
    Check the DEC standard issue dictionary (The American Heritage
    Dictionary) for a diagram of each. 
    
    Shallows wells (10 - 50 feet) get their water from the surounding
    ground water supply and react quickly to the local conditions and
    climate. That is, contaminates in the ground can easily find their way
    into the well and dry weather with dry up your well. The rain the falls
    today will end up in your well within days. 
    
    Deep wells (50 - 1000 feet) get their water from underground streams
    and water tables that are separate from the local ground water by a
    layer of impervious material (clay and/or bedrock). This water
    supplying usually has beeen in the ground longer (years) and traveled
    great distances (good filtering action) to reach your well. The deep
    well doesn't react as quickly to local conditions. You generally need
    several years of dry weather before you notice changes in a deep well
    water supply. Local contaminates shouldn't reach your well because of
    the impervious layer. But then again, contaminates miles away may enter
    the supply source for your well. 

    Charly

    Re: .3
    I think the divider between "shallow" and "deep" is about 25 to
    30 feet; less than that and you can use a vacuum pump; deeper
    than that and you need a submersible or a jet pump.
    
    The term "artesian" is widely misused.  Strictly speaking, an artesian
    well is one in which, after you drill it, the water flows out of
    the well by itself.  What well drillers typically call "artesian"
    wells are more properly called bedrock wells, I believe.
    
    The water table tends to rise and fall with the season, the amount
    of rain/snow, and the amount of wells drawing water.  As pointed
    out, deep wells take some time to react to weather conditions. Wells 
    are drilled deeper than the water table to 1) increase flow rates;
    2) provide a safety margin for exceptionally dry conditions or
    heavy use; 3) to provide a storage area.  Although the water level
    in your well may be only 50' below ground, the well may be 150'
    deep.  That way, you can draw on the column of water in your well
    and have no problems with short periods of very heavy water usage,
    even if the actual flow of water into the well is quite slow.
    In that example, by the way, the pump would probably be at about
    125' to allow a 25' area at the bottom for crud to build up without
    getting into the pump (assuming you have a submersible pump) and
    fouling up the works.
    

    We're in the midst of doing outside work on our prehistoric
    house.  In trying to fix one problem (that we hadn't planned
    on) we came across another (does it ever end?!).  Anyway,
    under one of the additions on the house there is a crawl
    space and in the crawl space we found an old open well.
    We have never been able to get this room warm and now we
    know why.  As one of the carpenters said, in the winter when
    it freezes it's like walking on a block of ice.  What do we
    do with this thing?  And any ideas on how to keep this room
    below sub-zero?
    
    Thanks.
    -k
    

    Fill it with sand?  

    This may be a stupid question but if we fill it with sand,
    what happens to the water?

    How deep is it?  Is the water all the way to the top?  I wouldn't
    think the water would freeze if it was deep in a hole.  Maybe just
    covering it with a concrete slab would do it.
    

    Re: .2
    The water will go back into the surrounding soil.  This might take
    a little while - you couldn't fill the well all at once, probably.
    Basically what you have is
    
    ground level
    ---------------------	------------
    			|	|
    			|	|
    	dirt		|	|   dirt
    			|	|
    . . . . . . . . . . |_______|. . . . . . . .water table level in ground
    			|	|
    			| water	|
    	dirt		|	|    dirt
			|_______|
    
    If you fill in the well, the water the fill displaces will seep 
    back into the surrounding dirt until everything stabilized at the
    level of the water table (the current level of the water in the
    well).  Since it would take a little while for the water to seep
    back into the surrounding dirt, you'd probably have to do the filling
    somewhat slowly, to give the water time to seep out into the 
    surrounding dirt and "seek its own level" again.
    

    After all this talking about the well, I doubt that it's the cause
    of your cold floor.  I suspect you have a cold floor because you
    have a drafty foundation (loose fieldstone, probably?) that the
    cold breezes are merrily blowing through, and no insulation in 
    the floor.

    
    
    	"Bank gravel" is a sand/gravel mixture and would be a less 
    expensive option to plain sand with the same results. Filling the hole
    probably won't warm the room though, try insulating the foundation
    and/or floor.
    
    	When remodeling a house this formula works for most things...
    1 hour planned work + 1 hour unplaned work = job completed/exhaustion. 
           
                
    Glenn

    In regards to the "drafty foundation" mentioned in .5, we've
    found out why it's so cold - somebody cut about a 5-6 ft.
    span out of the foundation and never covered it much less
    supported it.  The floor is also not insulated.  Guess what our
    *next* jobs are??
    
    As for the well, I got a note off-line from someone who
    suggested looking at the benefits rather than the detriments
    of having a well.  In looking at it, it's very full and apprears
    clear to the bottom.  It also seems to be spring fed as we
    have underground rivers flowing toward the house.  So, until
    we have time to really think about this, I think we'll just
    cover it and insulate the h*ll out of that room.  Guess the
    floor had to come up eventually...
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions.
    -k
    

    Timely topic, since I have my first well also.
    
    My well is 408' deep, with the 1/2 HP pump located at 380'( always
    wondered about that difference ).  The 'static' level is 20'.  The
    flow was only 2 gpm when initially drilled, and it was decided to
    'fracture' the walls to try to get a better flow.  We were lucky.
    It ended up being 4 gpm.  So far, we haven't run out.
    
    In the basement is a pump switch which goes on at 35 PSI and off
    at 55 PSI, as gauged by the pressure tank/valve located in the main
    water line.  This pressure tank is what regulates the water pressure
    in the house.  Then there is a cartridge water filter in the main
    line to extract any sediment which gets pumped up, and enormous
    amounts of 'iron'.  I have to replace the cartridge at least once
    a month, or my water pressure in the house goes to near nothing,
    even though the tank is showing 35 to 55 PSI.

    Hope this helps a bit.
        
    Some things I've wondered about is :
    
    	o is the pump big enough to handle that deep a well?  Specs
    	  the Sears catalogue seem to indicate a 1-2 HP pump for that
   	  kind of depth.
    
    	o Does 'static level' mean that the storage water rises to the
    	  20' level, which means there is 408'-20' - 388' of water stored
    	  in the well?  How can I calculate the number of gallons that
    	  represents?
    
    - Vaughn

    Re: Calculating the number of gallons in the hole.
    
    You are correct with your depth measurments ( the distance from the
    pump to the top of the water). For a 6" hole which is probably what was
    used, you can figure on 1 1/2 gallons per foot. So 3 hundred feet of
    water would be 450 gallons. 
    
    FYI. Wells are usually drilled with an 8" hole through the top soil
    into the bedrock, 10 - 30 feet, then a steel pipe is inserted into the
    hole and sealed around the outside with some kind of drilling cement.
    This protects your well from the ground water. Then the drilling
    proceeds using a 6" drill bit until they obtain the desired water
    flow. 

    Charly

                All of  this  has  been  very  enlightening.   So 
                here's my problem.  My house is 10 years old.  We 
                are the third (maybe fourth) owners.
                
                I do not know  how  deep my well is except to say 
                that the well company dropped  some pebbles in my 
                well and said that the water  level  dropped from 
                150 ft to 260 ft after 15  minutes of running one 
                faucet.  I also have a 1/2 horse submersable.
                
                My  pressure    lately    has   been  fluctuating 
                day-to-day from 55  psi to 30 psi.  One day I ran 
                out of water alltogether.    Just  had air in the 
                pipes.  That's the day I called the well company.
                
                They want me to spend  $1200  to  have  the  well 
                "hydrofracted".  That is, to force  water and air 
                into  the  well  at  extremely  high pressure  to 
                "clean out the veins".  No blasting is  involved.  
                I have been holding off to see what the  pressure 
                does  from  day to day and have gotten by ok  for 
                the last week as long as I watch the pressure and 
                don't do too  many  loads  of  laundry  when  the 
                pressure is low.
                
                I have never had  any  problem  during the winter 
                months and am tempted to wait it out.  
                
                Has anyone ever had similar problems ?  I am open 
                to  all  suggestions.   (This is  also  my  first 
                well.) By the way, I have been trying to find out 
                who dug my well so I can get  the  original specs 
                on  it.    This has been a fruitless search.    I 
                can't  even  find  out  who  built my house.  The 
                permit was  issued  to a private citizen who then 
                hired some building  contractor.   The citizen is 
                now  in  parts  unknown,    and    the  Derry  NH 
                authorities  have  no  records  concerning    the 
                builder and/or subcontractors.
                
                Thanks,
                
                Warren

    Re: .7
    
    I don't think that you'll find any "specs" on the well. The well
    driller drills the hole, tells you how deep it is so that you can pass
    this info onto the pump installer. Many times the well driller and pump
    installer are two different companies. Unless you can find a receipt
    from the well driller or from the pump installer, I don't think you'll
    find any more "official" info or written specs. 
    
    As far as the pressure goes, 30 - 55 PSI is fine and has ABSOLUTELY,
    POSITIVELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF WATER IN THE WELL, unless
    it's empty and then the pressure would be ZERO. 
    
    The pump pressurizes the plumbing in your house and is controled by a
    pressure switch that has a low and a high setting, usually somewhere
    around 30 - 55 PSI. When you open a faucet, the water flows out and the
    pressure in the pipes begins to drop. When it drops to the low setting,
    the pump turns on and rasies the pressure to the high setting and then
    shuts off. This way the pump doesn't have to run every time you wash
    your hands or get a glass of water. 
    
    This will work if you have hundreds of gallons of water in the well or
    if you are down to 1 gallon. Only when the water level drops below the
    intake for the pump will you know that you have run out. Some wells
    will give you dirty water shortly before they run out other wells
    will not.
    
    To repeat, water pressure in the house is controlled by the pump and
    pressure settings on the control switch and has nothing to do with the
    amount of water in the hole! Unless it's EMPTY. Watch the pressure
    gauge sometime when someone if taking a shower. You should see it drop
    to 35 PSI or so, hear a click and then the pressure should rise up to
    55 PSI or so, hear another click and then the pressure will start to
    fall again. 

    Charly

    Thanks, Charly, for this information.  If I can impose once more:
    
    I'm thinking of tapping off the main water line BEFORE the pressure
    valve for an outside water source.  If I understand correctly, this
    means that when running water through that outside tap, the pump
    will be running constantly.
    
    Will this eventually kill the pump, by overworking it?  Will the
    water pressure in that outside line get much higher the 55 PSI 
    ( or whatever the pump is rated at )?  What happens to the water
    flow and pressure to the rest of the house?
    
    Thanks again.
    - Vaughn
    

    No the pump won't run constantly, the pump only runs when the pressure
    control switch tells it to. There are check valves installed between
    the pump and the controls so that water doesn't flow back through the
    pump when it shuts off. If you tap in between the check valve and the
    pressure control/gauge, this would be the same as tapping in any where
    after the gauge. If you tap in before the check valve, when you use
    this water you will quickly reduce the pressure in this part of the
    system and then you'll have nothing because the pressure switch still
    sees adequate pressure in the house. 

    Crude diagram follows...

    O = Pressure gauge
    X = Pressure control switch
    ^ and > = One way check valves

                              O 
           -------------->----+-X------ House plumbing
           |                  |
           |                Tank
           |
           ^   
           |   
          PUMP

    
    Charly

I want to thank you all for your response to my original question. All
    of this information has been very educational to me.  
    
    A few replies ago, someone mentioned filters for the system.  I
    would appreciate a few comments as to what filters are needed. 
    Are you talking about one filter that "filters" everything.  Or
    are there different filters for different things depending on
    what the problem may be.  Does everyone that has a well use a
    filter?  Also, how often should well water be tested?
                   
    Thanks again,
    
    Pat
    
    
    

    I have a "dirt and rust" cartridge filter.  It takes out stray gravel,
    sand, etc.  It does ***NOT*** take out dissolved iron.  Dissolved
    iron in the water stays dissolved until it reacts with oxygen (in
    your toilet bowl or washing machine, for example), at which point
    it precipitates out and forms its typical rusty stains on everything.
    
    I also have a water softener, which does take out the iron, although
    if I were to do it again I think I'd get a different system, one
    designed specifically to remove iron.  A water softener is really
    designed to remove dissovled lime and manganese, and there are better
    ways to remove iron, as I've found from other notes in this file.
    
    If you're using your water now and don't have any complaints about
    its quality, don't worry about filters or water treatment equipment.
    You need them only if there is something about the water you don't
    like.  If you don't like the taste, or smell, or whatever, get the
    water tested to find out what is in it that is causing the problem
    and go from there.  Your best bet is probably to find a reliable
    and trustworthy company that deals in water treatment stuff and
    throw yourself at their mercy and take their recommendations about
    what to do.  How you find one, I'm not sure....
    
    As far as testing the water for bacteria, etc., I generally do it
    once a year, just for the heck of it.  In a deep well the chances
    of contamination are very small and you don't need to worry about
    it much.

    
    Well after two years of preparation, construction has begun in earnest.
    Land is all cleared, the foundation hole starts today and the well
    went in yesterday.
    
    I was done by Mike Sullivan in Bolton. I would highly recommend
    him. I called his house yesterday afternoon to tell him the area
    was cleared. When I went to the lot last night the well was there.
    
    220 feet deep with the first 52 feet needing casing. ($7/ft to drill,
    $7/ft. for casing) 20+ gallons/minute. Looks like I may need to
    do something about iron (I think he said it looks like 5 ppm, does
    that sound right?). Will know more when I get the test results next
    week.
    
    The next step is to put in the pump and run it for two days to clear
    out the well. Then get a sample for testing. Most people seem to
    have a 1/2 hp pump. Anything I should know about pumps before committing
    myself. I know I want to have better water pressure than my parents
    have. Theirs stinks. Once the pressure tank hits the point where
    the pump comes on, the pressure drops drastically.
    
    							Mark
    

    
    More info...
    
    	Turns out my well is delivering at 42 gallons/min.!!! Anyone
    heard of any problems with the pipeline from the Wachuset Reservoir?
    :-)
    
    	They installed the pump before talking it over with me. Put
    in a 1/2 horse, ~12 gal/min. pump. I have asked him to change it
    to a 1 horse, ~20 gal/min. version. I would hope I can water a lawn
    with that much water!
    
    						Mark
    

                Construction  and    blasting    for  new  houses 
                continues within a  half-mile  of my house.  This 
                has been going on  for  a  year and will continue 
                who knows how long.
                
                In the last year, my  neighbors  and  I  have all 
                seen new water supply problems.   One  house went 
                from  2.5  gals  per  min  recovery to  less  the 
                one-half.
                
                We  have  all  talked to different well companies 
                and   the  consensus  is  that  the  blasting  is 
                clogging  the  veins  to  our  wells.    However, 
                proving that is another matter.
                
                Four houses on  our short street are now for sale 
                for that reason.   Most of us want to stay but we 
                are at a loss on what action (if any) to take.
                
                Most just want to wait  out  the construction and 
                then re-deg or hydrofract if they  can  hold  out 
                that  long.   Some want to start  a  petition  to 
                prevent  further  blasting.  These new houses are 
                all being  in  into  the side of granite ledge in 
                NH.  (Their  back  yards  are 15' deep with a 40' 
                cliff at the back).
                
                Any suggestions would be appreciated.
                
                Warren

    Get a good lawyer - sounds like a case for a "class action".
    
    /tb/
    

    I have a little trouble believing the "clogging the veins" theory
    esposed by the well diggers.  Are they uphill from you?  Are they
    blasting on all sides of you?  Are your wells down into the granite?
    
    In addition, when you asked the well diggers their opinion you probably
    asked something like "could the blasting up the road be affecting
    our wells?" thus pre-determining the answer.  Bad move.  You want
    an objective opinion.  I don't think you got one.
    
    It would be hard to plug all the veins in an area around your
    properties.  Generally speaking, if your wells are dug in granite
    bedrock, the mode of transmission of water is through cracks in
    the granite (aside - have you checked your radon levels?).  I would
    think blasting would create more cracks.  To plug a vein or crack,
    you need a variety of particle sizes.  The large particles plug
    the cracks, the next size particles plug the interstices between
    the larger particles, etc.  The last size particle (smallest) needed 
    to complete this "feeding chain" is clay.  Is there a large quantity
    of clay that is being carried into the bedrock.  Not likely in a
    granite landscape.  (though clay is one decay product of granite
    it usually winds up in stream and lake beds)
    
    I've beaten that one to death.  I would suggest a more likely cause
    is a lowering of the water table in your area.  This can happen
    from a number of causes:
    
    	1) drought conditions - it it unusually dry in your area?  This
    summer was pretty dry in New England.
    
    	2) increased water usage with limited supply/re-supply - a lot 
    of new houses all tapping into the same cracks in the bedrock may 
    strain the capacity of the area.  Not too likely, but possible.
    Re-supply of ground water < than usage. (drought may affect the
    re-supply, naturally)
    
    	3) Some new change in the landscape such that the water in the
    bedrock is allowed to drain away.  Is the blasting below (significantly)
    you such that it would reduce the levels in your wells.
    
    	your house /\
    		  /  \
    		  |  |
    ------------------------	- old ground level
    	well -	  |         \
    		  |	     \
    old water ----|----       \  - new cut (could be far away)
    table 	  |	       \                              
    		  |		\
    new water ----|----		 \
    table			  \***  - springs (your water)
   
    You may want to spend your money on a civil engineer and a survey
    (I have a degree in CE but haven't used it since just out of college) 
    before wasting your money on lawyers and what appears to be a flimsy 
    premise.                             
    
    If you can provide me with more information, I may be able to provide
    some better insight into your problems.  The relative height of
    things is very important, since water runs down hill even underground.
                     
    Regards,
    Stan

It seems to me that the most likely thing is that the blasting is opening up
drains to lower the water level, rather then it clogging your wells. This could
happen even if the blasting was being done above your homes.  It sounds just as
likely that you could get it stopped... (read maybe yes, maybe no).

Jim. 

    re: .3
    
    Not likely.  The water has to drain somewhere.  In theory, the area
    below the water table is saturated (hence water table).  The water
    has to drain down hill, the cracks would have to lead somewhere.
    You could blast a hole the size of Quabbin reservoir, but that
    would fill up and the water table return to the original level.
    You really are going to have to look at the topography, geology,
    recent weather, construction in the area, etc. before entering a
    lawsuit.  After all, the other side will. 
    
    How deep is your well?  Are you on top of a hill?  At the bottom?
    Are there streams nearby?  What is up hill of you?  Downhill?
    Where is the granite ledge?  How deep is it from the surface?
    When did you buy the house (i.e. what was the orginal flow/recovery
    and when)?  How long ago did you start to experience water problems?
    I want a couple points on the time line relative to the blasting.
    
    Stan

RE: .4

But possible... There is permiable rock, and impermiable rock.  That's how
you get true artisian wells...

Jim.

                Ok, let me see if I remember all the questions.
                
                1.   I  have  lived  in this house 3.5 years.  No 
                water  problems  until    the    past  year  when 
                construction in my area really started moving.
                
                2.  I live  280  ft  MSL  about  50' above and .5 
                miles from Big Island Pond in Derry.
                
                3.  There is a 550' hill to the N.W. of me.
                
                4.  My well is approx 350' deep.
                
                5.  The water table is 8'.
                
                6.  Virtually all the  construction  is  downhill 
                from me and within .5 miles.  Approx 50 houses in 
                the last year.
                
                7.  Granite ledge at 6' level  (per plot plan and 
                backup documents).
                
                8.  Problem seems to be recovery rate in well.
                
                9.    Water  level  in well when fully  recovered 
                seems to be at 150' level.
                
                10.  Pump is at approx 300' level.
                
                11.  I believe it is a .5 hp pump.
                
                12.    I  have  checked  the  control box at  the 
                pressure  tank   to  try  to  determine  at  what 
                pressure  setting  the    pump   kicks  on.    No 
                instructions inside the "grey box".  I would like 
                to change the setting from  approx  25  psi to 35 
                psi.  (Maybe this would help  avert  the in-house 
                shortage).
                
                Did I forget anything ?
                
                Warren

    From the information provided, I would guess that you should have
    no problem with the water level in your well.  I suggest you look
    for a mechanical solution to your problem.  One thing I remember
    from back when my family had a well is that the pressure tank would
    get air-bound.  The pressure tank has a bubble of air at the top
    to pressurize the system (since water is virtually incompressible).
    What would happen, I think, was too much air would accumulate
    in the tank and the pump would run and run with little result.
    (are these your symptoms?)  The solution was to bleed some of the
    air off the tank.  It seems to me this had to be done every couple
    years or so (maybe the right time period?).  I have never done this 
    so I can't give you directions, any plumber should be able to help.  
    If this is the problem, I would think that raising the pressure in 
    the tank would temporarily improve the situation.
    
    What tests have you done to determine the problem?  Naturally the
    first thought to come to mind is that the pump is going.  Those
    things are pretty reliable.  If you want to test the pump, you can tap
    in to the line before the pressure tank to see if there is any problem
    on the pump end.  If quantity and pressure are high from the pump
    from the well you can eliminate the pump and proceed to inside the 
    house.
    
    Good luck,
    Stan
                                                                     
    Of course none of this would explain your neighbors problems, unless
    you all bought your houses at the same time and the same thing happened
    to all of them.  A little hard to believe.

I just received the water analysis from my soon to be well
in Kingston, NH.  (I am moving in the end of October)
The water appears to be soft, but acidic.  I am concerned with 
the effect of the acidic water and would be interested in 
possible solutions to the problem.  The house is three years old 
and the previous owner has had to replace the hot water heating 
element already!  Since the water is soft I guess a water softener 
is not the way to go.  I would think filters would not effect the PH 
either.  Is it possible, or better yet, economical to correct this 
problem or should I just live with it.  Their is also a septic 
system so the effect of any solutions on the septic system would 
have to be taken into account.


Water Analysis:

Test Type		standard		My water
------------------	----------		----------
total coliform		0/100 milliliters	0
chlorides		250 mg/liter		4
PH			7.0			6.5
hardness		0-75 is soft		62
Manganese		0.05 mg/liter		0.005
sodium			20 mg/liter		7.0
iron			0.3 mg/liter		0.005
Nitrate			10 mg/liter		0.2
nitrite			10 mg/liter		0.10

Any comments or suggestions?

-JFK-

    re: .13
    
    You ought to bottle the stuff and sell it!
    
    Seriously, though, there are many reasons for a HW tank to bite
    the big one. As a guess, I'd doubt that a .5 ph difference is the
    culprit.
    
    -joet

    re: .14
    >I'd doubt that a .5 ph difference is the culprit.
    
    My reason for concern is a combination of the HW heating element
    failure and the footnote in the water analysis statement that says:
    "A PH of 6.0 to 6.6 is moderately acidic and may cause piping
    corrosion".
                   
    The solution I would like to hear is "DO NOTHING".  But I am no
    expert.  Has anyone else had a problem with a PH of 6.5?
    
    -JFK-

	As a former Water Treatment Chemist, let me assure you that well water
  of 6.5 ph is just what you should expect.  The "standard" of 7 exists only
  in the laboratory!  All good natural ground water is "slightly acidic".

	Many communities spend big bucks to boost the ph to as high as 9 to
  reduce the corrosive effects of water on pipe in public systems.

	You're water is not going to give you excessive corrosion. 
  Remember that water will corrode just about anything it comes in contact
  with given enough time!


					-=Dennis

    Thanks Dennis, I feel much better about this now.
    Hope the Heater element was a fluke.
    
    -JFK- 

    Having a ph of 6.5 isn't bad, just as you've seen in previous replies.
    I've looked into systems to raise the ph of water (mine's 5.2),
    the systems are expensive and unless you use an industrial model,
    the units only raise the ph about one point. (from 6.5 - 7.5)
    
    The cause of water heater element failure is probably due to other
    minerals in the water.  In fact, that's on my "project" list as
    well.
    
    Oh the joys of being a homeowner !!! :^)
    
    
    Al Goetz

     Ditto on your Ph not being a problem. With an analysis like yours
    anyone should be VERY happy, you have excellent water. There are
    many reasons for an electric heater element to burn out, I doubt
    very much if it had anything to do with your water.
    
    					Kenny

    This seems to be a good place for another pump diagnostic question.
    I'm mostly ignorant about the control system, so please bear with
    me.
    
    My system has just developed an intermittent problem. Hasn't happened
    often enough to be very sure, but the occurrences are perhaps brought
    on by fairly high demand situations (washer, shower.) What happens
    is that the pump don't pump, even though the control system is quite
    clearly trying to do something, as evidenced by the relay chattering
    every half minute or so.
    
    The first time it happened, I opened the control box (contains a
    relay and a tubular component called an overload protector), went
    through the electrical checks that were conveniently listed inside,
    and found nothing amiss. When I put the cover back on the box -
    which mates the safety-shutoff connectors - the pump pumped. The
    next time the system failed (morning shower), I took the cover off
    again to shut it down while I went to work, and when I put it back
    together in the evening, the pump pumped once again. A pattern here,
    methinks...
    
    If someone could give a brief description of how the control box
    functions, I'd be much obliged. I'd especially like to know what's
    inside the overload protector and how it works.
    
    Also, is the pump motor likely to be a capacitor-start type, and is the
    capacitor perhaps one of the bits inside the overload protector? Any
    idea what value the cap would be? 
    
    Being a bit of a pessimist, I'm wondering if the pump motor has
    a sticky spot from which it can't start up (when warm, say), thus
    leading to an overload when a start is attempted.
    
    Any diagnostic ideas much appreciated! Thanks,
    
    Chuck

Just to keep this discussion alive, and to see if anyone out there has had 
any recent problems with bacteria (and what they did about it), here goes:

I am looking to buy a place in Southern NH that has a dug well.   The bank
required me to have a water test done before they would give me financing
(I'm glad they did now).  The first test I performed myself.  I followed 
the water company's instructions to a "T".   This test came back with a Total 
Coliform level of 30 (per 100ml). The State of NH won't accept a level above
4.  At that point, the sellers hired a well company to chlorinate the well, 
etc. I was told that the well company pulled out a few roots from it.  A few 
days later they took another test.  This time the Total Coliform came back 
at 3.  The State and the Bank (and hence, the sellers) said this was fine.  
I don't know if I'm convinced it is.

From peering into the well, it seems to be about 15-20 feet deep.  The 
lining seems to be intact all the way down into the water.  The
static level only seems to be 4-5 feet (max) from the bottom.  I've
spoken with the neighbors on both sides and they both have wash wells
(about 40 feet deep they said).  I asked them if they've ever had any 
trouble with bacteria in their wells, and they said that since the 8-10
years they've been living there they've never had the water tested!

The septic system seems to be about 50+ feet away.   Also, this house has
been vacant since May of this year.  My questions are:  How much could
the house being vacant for 5 months have to do with the high bacteria
level (note: Before I took the initial test, I let the water run for a total
of 8 hours)?  Could these "roots" be part of my problem?   Is a Total
Coliform level of 3 anything I should worry about (The State accepts it, 
but they're not the ones drinking it!-)?  Could the chlorination process
they did just be a temporary fix?  Is there a "simple" (ie. inexpensive)
way to determine if the septic is leaching into my well?  

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I'm suppose to close on this property 
this Friday.

Thanks in advance,
-Jim

PS: The owners of the property have passed away so they cannot shed any light
on the subject. (No, they died of heart failure and lung cancer, not drinking
contaminated water. That's the first thing that came to my mind too.-)

    50 feet is a bit close.  Ma. code requires >100 feet.  
    Stagnant water may have had higher bacteria content.
    Rotting roots may have contributed to this.  When I had
    my house tested, the testing agency recommended running
    the water for *24* hours before testing the unused well.
    But, they insisted that the water be run from an outside
    faucet through a hose drained away and downhill from the well
    and the septic system.  They pointed out that running the 
    water down the drain for long periods of time may either
    overtake the leaching field's capacity or set up a water
    gradient between the leaching field and the well.
    
    Your 8 hr. purge of the well may merely have wash the water
    through the septic system and back into the well.
    
    If you are serious about the house you might consider putting
    in a new well a bit further away from the septic system.
    
    

    re: .20
    What follows are my own personal guesses/opinions, not necessarily
    accurate....
    
    One question: What kind of cover is on the well, and how tight is
    it?  Shallow dug wells are notoriously susceptible to contamination,
    which is why they tend to be avoided these days.  A tight cover
    is highly recommended.  Roots/vegetable matter shouldn't be a source
    of coliform bacteria, and the fact that some roots got pulled out of the
    well probably isn't relevant unless their presence indicates a
    loose cover through which other contamination might enter.
    
    Coliform contamination, by itself, is NOT dangerous.  All warm-blooded
    animals including you and me have E coli bacteria living in their
    gut.  It's totally harmless.  However, it's an easy bacteria to
    test for and its presence indicates the presence of some sort of
    animal-derived contamination and the POSSIBLE presence of harmful bacteria.
    
    If the well is still contaminated after being chlorinated, my
    guess is that it's getting contaminated from the septic system.
    50' is not far enough away to be safe, I don't believe.  After 
    chlorinating (assuming it's done thoroughly), if there is no active 
    source of contamination the count should be 0.  There is a chance
    that you might have to chlorinate it more than once, but probably
    not.
    
    Even though the well is being contaminated from the septic system
    (assuming it is), the water is still "probably" safe to drink because
    there "probably" aren't any harmful bacteria (e.g. typhoid, etc.)
    present.  However, the idea of drinking partially recycled sewage 
    is not very appealing....
    
    The fact that New Hampshire accepts a count of 4 makes it inconvenient,
    because you've got this situation where the odds are (I think) very
    good that contamination is occurring, but it's not bad enough to
    get the law on your side.
    
    I might be inclined to get the water tested again, since it's had
    a few more days to settle down after the chlorine bath, and see
    what the results are with a second test.  If I had to bet I'd bet
    that it would show a count greater than 4.
    
    If you can, I'd see if I could get the sellers to knock a couple
    thousand off the selling price for the cost of a new well.  If
    you can get the water tested again and get results greater than
    4 you've got them in a pretty tight corner and they'd almost have
    to agree to some sort of price adjustment; as it is, they can say
    "it passes state requirements" and you're stuck.
    
    If you REALLY like the house, don't let it keep you from buying
    the place.  1) the odds of the water hurting you are minimal; 
    2) the cost of a wash well is not too horrendous, and since the
    neighbors have those you could probably do the same.  In the long
    run, spending an extra $2K or whatever for a new well would probably
    be worth it, even though you will be forever convinced that the
    sellers should have paid for it.  
    
    The house being vacant for 5 months, if anything, should have reduced
    the likelihood of contamination from the septic (I'd guess) since
    there would be no water flowing into the septic system to then flow
    into the well.
    
    The water testing place should be able to give you some flourescent
    dye tablets that you can flush down the toilet.  You can then, over
    the period of a week or so, take daily samples from the well and
    have them examined under ultraviolet light.  One dye tablet will
    show traces in a million gallons of water, or something astounding
    like that.  DON'T get any dust from the tablets on your clothes.
    I think the dye tablets cost $1.00 apiece or something.  Since it
    takes a week or so to collect the samples and you're supposed to
    close on Friday, I guess this doesn't help much in this immediate
    situation.  It might be something you could try after you buy the
    house, to try to find the source of the contamination (if you get
    the water tested and it's still there).
    
    The shortness of your time to take action makes it a bit inconvenient.
    I also found it virtually impossible to think rationally when I
    was on the verge of closing for my hosue, so I have great empathy
    for the situation you are in right now.  My summary, after all this
    miscellaneous rambling:
    
       Try to get the water tested again.  If the results are > 4,
       harrangue the sellers and try to get them to knock the cost
       of a new well off the price.  If it doesn't test > 4, or
       if you don't have time to do the test, you might try getting
       them to split the cost of a new well with you, or maybe just
       forget the whole thing and buy the house, with the idea of
       drilling a new well sometime soon.  In the meantime, even if
       the well is getting contaminated the odds of it hurting you
       are truly minimal.  After you buy the house, you can re-chlorinate
       the well and see if that does any good; it probably won't, but
       it's a cheap and easy thing to try.  You can try the dye tablets
       and see if you can learn anything that way.  You probably won't,
       but it's an amusing experiment.
    
    While you're doing all this testing, you can buy bottled water to
    drink, if you're worried about it, but it probably wouldn't hurt
    you to drink the well water.
    
    I had virtually the same situation as you, only I DIDN'T get the
    well tested before I bought the house.  I chlorinated 5 or 6 times,
    to no avail, tried the dye tablets and didn't learn anything, and
    finally ended up drilling a new well, 240' worth.  A wash well will
    be cheaper.
    

    
    Seeing that the time to closing is so short, you might consider
    having some of the money you are paying put into escrow towards
    resolution of the well problem. If the well tests satisfactorily
    after a month, the money goes to the sellers. If not, the money
    goes towards your new well, or some other solution.
    
    The lawyers can figure out the amounts and time periods, or you
    can have the bank/whomever set it up.
    
    An escrow account is a nice, fair way to resolve a last minute problem.
    
    
    dick

    re: .20  Lung Cancer??
    
    Forget the water, sounds like you should be checking for radon!
    
    Just kidding, sort of.  They were smokers, right?

    re: .22
    
>    One question: What kind of cover is on the well, and how tight is
>    it?  
The cover is cement which appeared to be on very tight.  The well 
company that went out to chlorinate the well could not get the cover 
off.  They had to cut a 8x8 "access hole" in the top so that they could
get a look inside.  They cut this in such a way that the piece cut out can 
be inserted back onto the cover of the well.  NOW, it seems that the cover
could let in contaminates because this piece doesn't fit tight, but I guess 
that's something I'll deal with later.
    
>    The fact that New Hampshire accepts a count of 4 makes it inconvenient,
>    because you've got this situation where the odds are (I think) very
>    good that contamination is occurring, but it's not bad enough to
>    get the law on your side.
Yes, this is the hangup right now. I was told this morning by the chemist at 
Chemserve in Milford NH that starting next year the State will NOT accept a 
coliform level of greater than 0.  Doesn't help me now, but NEXT time ...
   

    re: .23
    
>    Seeing that the time to closing is so short, you might consider
>    having some of the money you are paying put into escrow towards
>    resolution of the well problem. If the well tests satisfactorily
>    after a month, the money goes to the sellers. If not, the money
>    goes towards your new well, or some other solution.
This is EXACTLY what I tried, however the sellers were *strongly* opposed 
to this idea because seeing the State and the Bank accepted the water test
it MUST mean that the well is okay ...


      re: .24
>They were smokers, right?
I hope so.-)


Someone once mentioned to me that you can "clean" the walls of the well.
Anybody ever do this?   Is this as simple as pumping all the water out of
the well, climbing down there and scrubbing the walls with a brush/sponge
and cleaner?? What type of cleaner should be used?


I have since dropped off another water sample and I'll post the results ...

    Re: cleaning the walls of the well:
    I'm not sure what might be intended by this.  In general, I don't
    think you have to.  I've never heard of anybody doing it.  One
    thing that can/should  be done is to wash down the walls when the 
    well gets chlorinated; presumably the people who chlorinated the well 
    did it.  After dumping in the chlorine, hook up a hose and recycle
    the water through the well (run the hose into the well), and in
    the process of doing that wash down the walls with the hose.
    

The results came back from my latest water test and the total coliform
level was a 0.  Looks like the problem with the other tests were either: 
a) the water hadn't been run long enough, or b) the other samples were 
improperly taken ...

-Jim

    HORRAY!!!!
    
    Congratulations, etc.  You'll probably want to keep an eye on things
    (I think it's recommended that a shallow well get tested at least
    once a year) but it sounds as though the situation is under control
    for now.
    Good luck at the closing!
    

	Speaking of Well pumps,  Does anyone know of a device that "cuts off"
  a well pump when the well goes dry?? ...or any simple device that can tell
  you when the water level is getting low in the well?

	We have had a bad experience with a NEW washer draining our well. The
  pump motor was hot but fortunately it didn't burn up...

	I want to prevent this from happening again (WE FIXED THE WASHER!)

						-=Dennis

    Dennis,
    
    The device that shuts off your pump when there's no water is a thermal
    overload protector.  The pump relies on the water for cooling, so,
    if there is none then the pump gets hot and shuts itself off.
    
    You might be able to rig up a water sense switch and place it 1-2
    feet above your pump (assuming it's a submersible pump).  Then
    the switch would need to be wired in series with the pressure switch.
    (low pressure + water present = pump on).
    
    I haven't seen any factory configured set-ups like this. (but then,
    I haven't looked)
    
    Good luck.
    
    

    Sounds like the perfect place for a switch like you find on a sump
    pump.  Water raises the float and closes the circuit.
    
    No water - broken circuit to the pump motor - no power.

    Most installations I have seen (at least for deep wells)  have a
    dual purpose pump switch - 1) normally it turns the pump on when the
    water pressure (in the pressure tank) drops to a certain level,
    and shuts it off when it reaches a higher level.
                                  
    The second purpose is to turn the pump off (needing a manual reset)
    it it drops too low, indicating that the water level is too low.

    I have a problem with my water (my own well). It seems that the
    ph is 5.6 to 5.9. This is apparently causing such problems as
    blue stained bathtub and pinholes in my pipes. 
    
    We just bought the house, circa 1962, last year and have decided
    that an acid neutralizer is probably a good idea. However, we also
    have moderately hard water and have been told that the neutralizer
    would make this very hard, so that a softener is probably a requirement
    as well.
    
    The reasoning seems to make sense. Have I missed anything, and does
    anyone know of any good names in the business?
    
    Thanks
    Alan
    
    

    
       My parents house had a really bad problem with well water. It
    was heavily tainted with iron (I mean heavily). They installed
    a Culligan system that uses salt to filter. There are three separate
    units in the system. A deionizer, A nuetralizer and something else.
    I don't Know what the third Unit is but the water problem went away
    and things are 200% better since the system was installed 2 years
    ago.
    
                                           John c.
    

    Blue staining and some corrosion was noticed in my plumbing, plus
    the bitter morning water taste, (probably copper & lead (from solder)).
    I looked at various systems and decided on a 'no" maintenace "upflow'
    tank with a form of 'lime'? neutralizer from A F Water Conditioning
    Store in Ayer 772-6773.  I was able to install it myself and have
    had the problems go away and almost 2 years without a refill. I
    recommend it, just a tank with the inflow on the bottom, and out
    the top, no need for any control gadgets or backflushing. regards
    Hank

    Another question - is it correct to assume that the noise that a
    well pump produces is proportional to the $$ they cost?  I currently
    have a pump which, when it engages, can be heard from the basement
    to the 2nd floor quite easily.  There seems nothing wrong with the
    pump, except that it is loud (I think it is a Wayne).   You folks
    with well pump experience, please let me know becuase if I can
    get a quieter one, I might.  Probable cost would be nice too.
    
    						Pete
    

    Another suggestion.  If your well is that shallow, you may just quickly
    suck it dry.  Then you have to wait for it to fill before you start
    your pump again.  If this is the case, you will need a storage/pressure
    tank.  Did the previous owners have such an arrangement?

    re: .4
    The pump is in the basement, I take it?
    It's hard to say if you can get a quieter one, because "loud" is
    in the ears of the hearer.  Maybe I would call your pump quiet,
    although from your description it sounds noisier than I'd expect.
    If the pump is in the basement though, you'll probably hear it 
    no matter what kind you have.  
    The ancient piston pump at my grandfather's farm could be heard
    upstairs, although I wouldn't call the noise obejctionable; it
    was sort of nice to hear, because you knew the pump was working.
    The ancient piston pump in the first house I rented could be heard
    upstairs, making a soft "pocka-pocka" noise; again, not what I would
    call objectionable. 
    Both of those were shallow well pumps.
    My uncle has a deep well "jet" pump in his basement; you can hear
    it, but once again I wouldn't call it particularly loud.
    
    I'm not sure about the cost of these things; do you have a shallow
    (less than about 28') or a deep well?  Shallow well pumps are 
    considerably cheaper.  Regardless of the kind of well, you could
    get a submersible pump to go in the well, but then you'd be talking
    maybe $500-$600 (wild guess), plus you'd need to dig a trench to
    run the wiring to the well, etc.  If you can use a shallow well
    pump, you could probably get one for a couple hundred.  A deep-well
    pump in the basement...I'm not sure.  $500???
    
    Maybe the pump you have is just worn and if it were rebuilt it might
    be quieter....might be worth asking a pump person about.
    

    Noisy pumps...  I replaced my shallow-well pump with a Goulds
    pump about 5 years ago; it's just about as noisy as the Sears
    one I replaced.  I can hear it on the second floor.
    
    Most shallow-well and deep-well pumps are "jet pumps" these days.
    The shallow-well version just has the jet (venturi) in the pump
    body rather than in a gizmo in the well.  This has the advantage
    of running only one pipe from the well.
    
    As I understand it, all jet pumps are noisy because of what is
    called "cavitation noise" which occurs as the water is accelerated
    by the impeller.
    
    If you want a quiet pump, I think you'll have to get a submersible or put
    the pump in a well house.
             --tom

    
    	I am getting ready to replace my well pump and tank, and wanted
    	to throw out a few questions before I take the plunge.... Info
    	on my well are:
    
    	1. Dug well water is about 20 feet below the level of the pump.
    
    	2. Presently have a 1/2 HP Goulds jet pump with a two hose jet
    	   package... one for pulling water up, and the other for pushing
    	   some back down.
    
    	3. Have a 46 gallon non-captive air type tank... rusting through.
    
    	I planned to replace the tank with a Sears 70 gallon captive
    	air type tank. I decided to go with such a large tank because
    	I wanted the reserve for power outages, and felt that the larger
    	tank would mean less cycling on my pump. I do alot of garden
    	work and watering in the summer, and my present pump/tank system
    	runs continuosly when I use the hose... indoor water pressure
    	is down to about 40lbs during this period. Based on this, and
    	my dislike for plastic pumps (mabey unjustified, but I like
    	cast iron better) I had decided to buy the Sears deep well two
    	stage jet pump which is a 1HP unit. It is rated at 12.7 GPM
    	from a draw level 40ft below the pump. My objectives are less
    	pump cycling, and a greater available flow of water.
    
    	Questions:
    
    	1. Does this pump/tank setup sound like it will do the job?
    
    	2. Has anyone had any good/bad experiences with Sears pumps
    	   or tanks? Does anyone know which company makes them for
    	   Sears?
    
    	3. Does anyone have any info on the use of an air check valve
    	   for the tank? I saw one at Sears, it is a plastic cup with
    	   a platic ball inside, and as far as I can tell, it mounts
    	   onto the water tank.
    
    	BTW the Sears pump and tank product line is on sale in one of
    	their sale mini-catologues now through June.
    
    	Any feedback appreciated, as this is my first pump experience.
    
    /Kevin

    Just one question: who is going to fix your Sears pump when it needs
    servicing?
    I think that in the long run you'd be better off buying a brand
    such a Gould that has a dealer network.  Gould pumps last forever,
    too.  I have my doubts about Sears.
    You're talking about pumping 12.7gpm...are you sure your dug well
    can supply that much?  The biggest pump and tank in the world won't
    help much if you pump the well dry.
    I would be inclined to replace the pressure tank, and talk to a
    Gould pump dealer about getting the pump you've got rebuilt, if
    necessary.

    
    	I feel confident that my well will supply the water... the water
    	table in my area is quite high. My query about the real
    	manufacturer of the Sears pump was aimed at trying to figure
    	out who might support it should it break... for all I know
    	Gould makes the Sears pumps! I aggree that replacing the tank
    	is my first priority, but I decided that I might as well 
    	do the whole thing, pump and all while I was at it. The pump
    	that is in the house is the original... 35 years young.
    	I will take your advice and look at the Gould pump line.
    
    /Kevin
    	

    One other alternative I haven't seen mentioned is
    for you to drop a flexible pipe/hose into the well and
    run it to the outside.  Then hook it up to a gas powered,
    self-priming agricultural pump.  Since washing cars and
    watering lawns is seasonal around here, the 3hp Briggs
    makes the same noisse as a lawn mower & fits right in.
    
    You can pick one up (I did) in Worcester at a place
    called washburn & Garfield.  I'm using it to water my lawn
    using the nearby swamp as a h2o source. (Don't tell the
    conservation commission ok? ;^)
    
    Cost was about $150.00
    

    
    Yesterday,  I lost power in my house for about 6 hours.  When I
    got home last night,  it was restored.  I merrily started doing
    dishes, which involved running  the dishwasher.  After the diswasher
    completed,  I went and filled my dog's bowl up with water,  well
    the water was dirty!  It looked like something I would get from
    the bottom of a pond.
    
    I have a well, don't know how deep it is though (I am sure it is
    written down at home somewhere).  I have had the house about  1
    1/2 years, and never had this problem before.  Is this because my
    well is low?  The water was fine this morning, even after a shower.
    Is there anything I should look at or fix?
    
    Is this common?
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Sherry
    
    ps.  couldn't find any previous topics that seemed appropriate.
    
    

This is  not  an  uncommon symptom of a well that has been zapped by lightning.
Usually, though, it does a number on the pump as well.

Dave

Hi Sherry,

	Usually that means that something happened (and power out 
qualifies) that caused the column of water in your well pipe to drop 
back down to the level of water in the well.  In the process of doing 
that the water stirs up the guck in the bottom of the well.  It could 
take a couple of days to settle again.

	Generally there is a check valve somewhere that should prevent 
this happening, but they fail over time.  Also if you had the sprinkler 
running or some other valve open in the system when the well pump cut 
out, it could be a contributing complication.

	In any case, although it looks nasty, it's generally harmless.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    It's almost certainly just rust and crud that got stirred up
    in the well, in the pipe from the well, in your pressure tank,
    wherever.  All the crud reaches a very delicate steady-state
    condition, and it doesn't take much to knock it loose.  Almost
    anything out of the ordinary in the water system can do it.
    This happens in cities when they flush the hydrants.  Just let 
    the water run until it's clear.  You may need to clean the aerator 
    screens on the faucet spouts (assuming you have them), if you got 
    a lot of crud and the screens got clogged up.  They just unscrew.

    It happens to us every time we have a power failure.  Just run the
    water until it clears.  You may also want to clean the filter
    screens on your washing machine or dishwasher.  It's just the
    sediment in your well; it's harmless.
    
    pbm
    

What are reasonable sizes (horsepower) for deep well water
pumps?  I'm in the process of building a house (well hasn't
been dug yet) and the builder is planning to provide a 1/4 hp 
Gould pump.  This seems on the small side to me.  What are the
suggested pump sizes and is there much of a cost difference
between various sizes?

Also, the tank sizes used in new construction now seem to be
consistently smaller than those used 10-20 years ago.  Most
of the ones used today seem to be in the 20-40 gal range.
Any reason why?

This is for a 3 bedroom house.  We also do a fair amount of
gardening (lawn watering etc).

Larry

    
    	RE: .8
    
    	My well is 200' and I have a half-horse submersable pump.
    	I wouldn't want any *less* pressure than what it provides.

    Motor size required depends on how deep the well is.  1/4 hp won't
    handle a very deep well; how deep are the wells in your neighborhood?
    
    A pump-supply place should have a table that tells what size motor
    you need for a given depth of well.  My pump is 200' down and is
    1/2 hp; as I recall, that was about the limit for 1/2 hp.  Anything
    deeper and I'd need a larger motor.

    Re .8
    
    Gould publishes a selection chart to enable you to match well to
    pump and to tank pressure.  For example, my 180 foot well with a
    1/2 hp pump and 20 psi tank pressure will deliver 230 gallons/hour.
    The chart should be available at any Goulds dealer.
    
    pbm
    

The well may be drilled as early as today...  I should
have the information I need (well depth) shortly.

Larry

    Hi Sherry,
    
    		I'm no expert on well's because I live in the city.
    I was reading your note and all the replies. Wells..... They all read
    like they are yuky. I read words like..... Rust, sediment, yuk,
    pipe build up. Most of them recommended you clean the screen. What
    about the particles and unseen things that get through the screen?
    		You all drink this very day? Wow. Although I'm sure
    all you folks have advantages to city water. Well water is not
    treated like city water is. But is it as good, better, or worse?
    Is it tested for Pesticides, Fertilizers. Do any of you live near
    a farm or land fill? 
    	Our most valuable resource. Is it really that safe? 
    
    	Please don't misunderstand me I'm not putting down wells or
    the water in them. I was just reading these notes, and expressing
    my thought. I have been doing some research on the water problems
    in the U.S.. Because of some of the things if have found is what
    made me reply. Believe me the city water is not good. I have a Water
    Treatment System. It's great! For two reason..... 1.) The water
    tastes great, 2.) I feel safer knowing that it is clean.
    
    	Have a great and I hope your well has settled down by now.
    
    Richie Laperle.
    

    Rust won't hurt you.  Sand and gravel won't hurt you.  Mud won't
    hurt you.  And in a good well there aren't any harmful bacteria.
    The crud and sludge (purely a temporary condition) doesn't LOOK
    very good, but it's totally harmless.

    
    My well has settled down by now.  It is nice and clean again. 
    Your replies did make me relax though.  I have had the power go
    out before with no side effects on the water,  so I probably would
    not have guessed that was the problem.
    
    Thanks for the help
    
    Sherry

    I could't find anything on this particular topic.  If there is,
    I will delete the note!!
    
    I have well water at my house.  The well is 680 feet deep, and
    the pump is set at 600 feet.  The installation is 3 years old.
    
    At the house, is the tank (30 gals., shut off, etc).
    
    When the installation was new, everything ran silently.  However,
    as time progressed, a noise developed, which sounds like a
    rattle.  There aren't any motors or anything, and the relay is
    not chattering.
    
    The noise appears to be coming from some sort of valve (perhaps
    a one way?) installed just before the tank.  The setup is:
    
    						     tank
    						       |
      						       |  [relay]
    --- Pipe from well -------|=== mystery valve ==|---|----||---->
    
    	Does anyone have any experience with this?
    
    	The sound is getting pretty annoying.
    
    			Regards,
    				Steve Cloutier
    
    
                                                            
    

    
    re: .5
    
>>    Wells..... They all read
>>    like they are yuky. I read words like..... Rust, sediment, yuk,
>>    pipe build up. Most of them recommended you clean the screen.
>>    What about the particles and unseen things that get through the screen?

    I haven't seen any junk coming out of my well, and the water tested
    fine three weeks ago, and it tastes great (actually it doesn't taste,
    which is the way I like it).  When did the city last test your water,
    and do you know what the results were?
    
>>    Well water is not treated like city water is. 

    Treated with what, and why should it need to be treated?
    
>>    But is it as good, better, or worse?
>>    Is it tested for Pesticides, Fertilizers. Do any of you live
>>    near a farm or land fill? 
    
    At least I know where my water is coming from and can see if something
    is happening locally to contaminate it.  Your "well" is 100 miles away!
    
>>    Believe me the city water is not good. I have a Water
>>    Treatment System. It's great! For two reason..... 1.) The water
>>    tastes great, 2.) I feel safer knowing that it is clean.
        
    So how can well water be any worse?  I may buy a filter system
    too, just as a safeguard between water quality checkups, but it
    sounds like you KNOW your water is bad.  My water goes through about
    200' of pipes to get from the ground to my sink.  Yours goes through
    miles.  Did they use any lead solder on those pipes?  Any rust or
    cracks or other contamination to worry about?  I'll take the well.
    
    Bill

>                                When did the city last test your water,
>    and do you know what the results were?
    
The cities of Revere and Winthrop (Mass) test weekly.  The NH Public
Utilities Commission required my family's water company to test monthly
-- more often if there was any reason to suspect the water might be
getting fouled. I would expect the schedule is common: most major cities
weekly and most towns or private utilities monthly.  Note that there is 
no need to enter your house to get a reading on water quality.

The most current analysis is available by contacting your water
department. 

The general thinking in the water industry is that if you're hooked to a 
utility, then most home filtration/treatment installations do more to 
provide peace of mind than any protection.  If anything harmful gets 
past the central treatment facility, it's unlikely that a home 
installation will clean it up.  They can remove sediment and certain 
upleasant odors, none of which are harmful.

If you're hooked to a well, and the water needs more serious treatment 
than softening or iron removal, then you're in deep sneakers.

As to the rest... it's probably best not to let this topic heat up.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Water in Boston Metropolitan District tastes like cucumbers or seafood,
    all because of algae in Wachusett resevoir.  Wells don't grow algae,
    at least.  You never really find out all the chemicals they drop
    into the reservoir and the aqueducts.
    
    In Gardner I get my water from wells and a local reservoir.  In
    November the city told me the choloform bacteria count for SEPTEMBER
    was higher than the legal limit.  Heckuva lot I could do about it
    at that point.
    
    Elaine
    

    re. .0
    
    That "mystery valve" is your check valve.  It's function in life
    is to prevent water from draining back into the well.
    
    The rattling sound you describe is probably caused by vibrations
    from the pump.
    
    I occasionally have the same noise.  Sometimes it happens, somtimes
    it doesn't.  Can't say how to prevent it.
    

    I have a deep well, about 600 feet.... I have the same problem...
    since the day it was installed. The first valve was so noisy that
    I had the well company replace it after 3 weeks. The new one is
    better but still noisy..... I suggest you either live with it
    or perhaps find a way to deaden the rattle
    
    
    
    							Dave
    

Actually with most well water you can't see the local sources of
contamination, because most wells these days (I believe) are deep
wells.  So the Wachusett Resevoir gets my ground water runoff, but
I get ground water runoff from miles away that eventually seeped
down deep enough to reach my well.

But as a neophyte well owner, I have two questions:

1)  The waste line for flushing out my water filters (to remove iron
and manganese) connects right into my main sewer line, without an air gap.
The instructions that came with the units say there should be an air gap
to avoid the possibility of siphoning sewage into the water filter.
Just how serious is this - should I get it fixed *instantly*, is it
something to fix eventually, or is this probably not important?

2)  I went down in my basement one day and found water leaking out of
the hole in my basement wall where the well pipe comes in.  I haven't
yet figured out if this only happens when the pump is running or whether
that was a fluke.  Does this sound like the pump pipe is broken?

	Thanks,
	Larry

    I know this was mentioned in a couple of other well related notes
    but I would really like to get more info on this subject of Hydro
    Fracture. This past week my neighbor brought in Green Mt. Well Co.
    to drill another well. His existing well yielded less then 1 GPM
    and was down over 500 ft. This well company guaranteed at least
    1/2 GPM within 300 ft of drilling. He was taking a high risk but
    he said he had to do something and drilling his well deeper was
    not recommended because it had been dynamited and had caved in to
    about 400', where his present pump is positioned. Green Mt. did
    drill another well down to 300' and it was dry as a bone. They then
    pulled the drilling rig out and sent in the HydroFrac crew and they
    HydroFracted the well, starting about 30' up from the bottom and
    continued re-HydroFracting every 30' until they were about 20' down
    below the casing. The bottom line is that the next day the well
    was yielding a solid 2 GPM. I was impressed because I truely believed
    this was going to be a dry well. As a result, I am considering having
    my own well HydroFracted but would like more input from you well
    owners who have had the process done. My well is 350' down and had
    been installed with the old cable pounder type rig. my yield is
    about 1 GPM and I would like it to at least double. Can those people
    who have had HydroFracting done, or know about the process please
    comment on the following:
    
    1. What are my chances for a substantial increase in my well's yield?
    
    2. What kind of before and after results have you had on existing
    wells?
    
    3. Who might you recommend or am I wasting my money?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Bill D.

    re.0 What is Hydro Fracting? I have never heard of this operation
    in my area of Mass. I had my well drilled in 1965 (very dry year)
    and it yielded better than 12 gpm. It is only 265 ft. deep.
    
    
    Jim

    My guesses/opinions:
    
    You ought to fix 1) sometime, preferably sooner than later, but
    I wouldn't say you have to take the afternoon off and rush home
    to do it.  The flush line for my water softener runs into the
    sink in the basement; that's an easy way to get an air gap, which
    you might be able to use.
    
    Re: 2), was it raining at the time?  I would guess that it was just
    groundwater, leaking through the wall around the pipe.  If it happens
    only when the pump is running then I'd get mighty suspicious, but
    I think it's more likely that it has nothing to do with the well
    pipe.  More observation and deduction is in order to make sure.

    
    
    to answer .1 Hydro Fracting to my knowledge is drilling to a certain
    depth and then going out to the side in a given radius, what this
    does is hits numerous vains instead of just one vain. In areas where
    water is scarce you need multiple vains to get enough water.
    
    to answer .0, I have a friend that could only get .5 to 1 GPM until
    they Hydro fracted and now he gets 3 GPM. He swears by it.
    I was lucky, my well yielded 10 GPM at 200'.
    good luck
    
    Randy
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
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If for any reason, after examining these notes, you wish to continue the 
discussion here, send me mail and this note will be un-writelocked immediately 
and without question.

Paul [Moderator]

    I check with the moderator and got the OK to release. So anyone
    who has had the Hydro Fracture procedure preformed on a well, please
    let me know the results. Thanks!
    

    I just wanted to re-activate this discussion as it seems that we
    never really got to a single conclusion:
    
    Given that the water supply has AN IRON problem, it seems that
    two different methods were recommended in previous replies:
    
    	1. WATER SOFTENER
    
    	2. IRON FILTER UNIT
    
    Are both solutions interchangeable? What is the cost differential?
    
    Mark
    

    I got a water softener.  If I were to do it again I think I'd get
    an iron filter unit.  The water softener works, but it really
    isn't designed to take out iron, it's designed to take out calcium/
    lime.  I don't really like the fact that I'm putting about 5 pounds
    of salt every 6 days into my septic tank, either.  According to
    the guy who pumped my septic tank the salt won't hurt it, but I
    have a suspicion that the salt is why the ash tree at the side of
    my leach field is dying.  I don't believe the iron filter units 
    require any salt or other chemical.

    I have both a filter and a softener. We have calcium, manganese,
    etc. plus iron particles (mining anyone?). The filter works good,
    but the amount of particles is so high I have to change it every
    three or four months. If I just rinse it out, I start seeing rust
    stains in the dishwasher, the bathtub and all other fixtures because
    it gets impregnated with iron. We can tell when it needs to be
    replaced, because our water pressure goes way down.

    Re .23
    
    Four months between filter changes is quite normal; we have the
    same setup.  Our plumber, who installs larger systems commercially,
    told us that in a typical restaurant installation in the southern
    New Hampshire / northern Massachusetts area, it is typical to change
    the filters once a WEEK.  And that's for the ICEMAKER only!
    
    pbm
    

    Filter changes???  I've heard of iron filters that have automatic
    backwash, etc., and don't ever need changing (in theory?).  Of course,
    the automatic jobs cost in the neighborhood of $1000.  Are you talking
    about something simpler and cheaper?

    Re .25
    Yep! Almost any halfway decent hardware store will have them. They
    can also be found at Spags (of course!) and at Sears. It's just
    a heavy duty plastic canister inside which you put the filter. These
    are usually connected after your pressure tank and before the water
    softener. It is also a good idea to have a shut-off valve after
    the filter so you can remove the canister for cleaning without getting
    soaked with the water flowing back from the house. And of course,
    this assumes you have a shut-off valve at the tank that you can
    close to stop flow of water from the well.

    Oh - those.  I've got one.  It didn't do *ANYTHING* about eliminating
    the iron in my water.  It does take out the miscellaneous sand and
    gravel and solid rust particles, but the real problem (for me) is
    the dissolved iron in the water; those kinds of filters can't deal
    with dissolved iron.

    Well, I went to Sears to get their product prices and to get one
    of their FREE water test kits. Actually, both goals were satisfied.
    The Test Kit, IS FREE, and is actually performed by a reputable
    lab in  St. Paul, MN. I put it in the MAIL this morning.
    
    They also had their IRON filter which uses the Potassium Permangenate
    refill to remove about 20-25 ppm clear or red water iron. (Do not
    confuse this with an earth/sand or activated charcoal device.) Well,
    I put one of the units 'on hold' pending the results of the test.
    The sale price was 339.00 (down from 400).
    
    Mark
    
    
    I will wait and see...

    
    	Filters that take out dissolved iron and manganese require the
    addition of an air injector which permits a controlled amount of
    air to be added to the water *before* the filter.  The iron turns
    to rust and is then extracted from the water by the filter.  There
    are many factors to determine what size unit you need including,
    water psi and flow rate.  The trick is to match the capacity of
    the iron filter to the water variables in your house, as close as
    possible.
    	For instance, my well pump delivers 5 gpm.  Most of the filters
    I found available in my area were designed to be operated at 3 gpm.
    If I were to use this filter without reducing water flow, I would
    not get the full filtering capacity of the filter since the input
    water flow is more than the effective filtering capacity, (regarding
    flow rate) that the filter can handle.  I could have reduced the
    flow rate, but I liked the flow and pressure that was produced by
    the pump.  If anything, in this situation, you would want to buy
    a filter that had a greater flow capacity than the pump delivered,
    by which the water would be filtered *more* than required.  Luckily
    I did find a company that made a 5gpm filter.  It cost $550 whole-
    sale and was retailing for over $900.  I was lucky to get it at
    the wholesale price and installed it myself, so I saved some serious
    money.
    	The filters that I looked at had 3, 5, and 7 gpm flow rates.
    The greater the flow rate, the larger the filter and the greater
    the cost.  The filter comes with two chemicals, (I have no idea
    what they are but potassium permeagate or whatever it was that
    was mentioned a few notes back sounds familiar) one is white, 
    and one is black.  I don't know too much about chemicals but
    the black stuff seemed to be nothing more than fine activated
    charcoal.
    	My opinion on the whole filter is that the price is a rip-off
    no matter who you buy it from.  The entire filter consists of a
    simple tank about five feet tall, 10 inches in diameter, with
    two chemicals inside.  No moving parts except for the timer which
    controls the backwash cycle.  I backwash mine every other day.
    It sort of looks like a big scuba tank.  The chemicals never wear
    out (supposedly), and no maintainance involved unless the timer
    should break.  Does it work?  Yup!  Was it worth it?  Anything
    is worth getting rid of those crappy rust stains, but considering
    the technology involved with the device, these guys are making a
    killing! (my opinion of course)
    	One interesting thing.  Most water softeners have a cylin-
    drical tank similar to the iron filter.  The chemicals for the
    iron filter are available separately, so I believe it is possible
    for a person with a water softener with an external cylindrical
    tank, to convert it to an iron filter just by changing chemicals.
    	Water softeners work on LOW iron contents, but if you've got
    high iron levels, you've got to get the iron filter.  One other
    thing, when you get your water tested, have it done at an inde-
    pendent lab that does not promote or sell, water treatment 
    devices.  It's the only way to be sure your getting an accurate
    reading.

        I recently woke to the sound of my well pump running at 5:00
        A.M. A quick look verified that it was indeed leaking like a
        sieve. We're not talking drips, this was a major flow of water
        like from a faucet.
    
        I took the pump back to the MANUFACTURER, Fairbanks Engineering
        in Worcester. They not only COULD fix the 25+ year old unit
        but did so in less than 30 minutes. (Blown seals.)
    
        Take a 25 year old pump back to Sears and see if they'll even
        admit they sold it...
    
        Edd                                               
    
        

>< Note 845.29 by SMURF::WALLACE "Life's a beach, then you dive!" >

>                                               ... it is possible
>    for a person with a water softener with an external cylindrical
>    tank, to convert it to an iron filter just by changing chemicals.

      I'm  niether  a  chemist  nor  a  water quality expert, but I'd be
      seriously scared about drinking water that  came  through  such  a
      "modified" system unless the modification had been engineered by a
      chemist and water quality expert.  
      
      If I understand it that 'tank' on your water softener contains the
      chemicals that take the hardness out of  the  water.   Its  not  a
      filter,  but  a chemical (catalyitic?)  process.  My best guess is
      that your modification would not soften and would only filter iron
      until  it  clogged  up.  I doubt that the water softener re-charge
      process would properly back-flush the filter.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      Our well has hard, acid water with iron bacteria.  We went through
      the Sears anaysis and we now have the following.   1)  A  solution
      feeder  wich  feeds a mixture of chlorine (liquid bleach) and acid
      neutralizer. (Yes, I know that chlorine in solution is acid. Don't
      ask  me how these two chemicals can co-exist.  I said earlier that
      I'm not a chemist!)  2) Next in line is a 40 gallon (approx)  tank
      which allows time for the water and chemicals to mix and react. 3)
      This is followed by an automatic backflushing  filter  that  takes
      out  the  (now  dead)  iron bacteria.  4) Finally there is a water
      softener with a special chemical feed to increas its tolerance  to
      iron. Ths addition to the water softner is there because we tried,
      unsuccessfully, to do without the filter for a while.  Between the
      backwashing filter and the softener there is replaceable cartridge
      filter.  This is there primarily because I already had it  so  why
      not? It is a good idea anyway because it filters when the other filter is
      off-line backwashing.
      
      The  solution feeder, the backwashing filter and the water softner
      are from Sears.  I installed them.  My total cost was around $1000
      about 3 years ago. A functionally similar system from a commercial
      water service would have cost at least $2000; perhaps as  high  as
      $3000.   I've  had  two problems so far.  1) the injection fitting
      where the solution  feeder  attaches  to  the  water  pipe  became
      clogged  after  about  2  years.  It looks like this is a 24 month
      maintenance item.  The fitting cost <$5 and tool about 1/2 hour to
      replace.   2)  One  of the valves in the backflushing filter stuck
      partly open about 3 weeks ago.  I think it was stuck for at  least
      24 hours, possibly 2-3 days, at which point it made itself know by
      some minor flooding in our basement.  It cleared  up  by  manually
      recycling.  I hope it stays cleared up!
      
      With  this  type  of system you should check the Cl and Ph of your
      water more or less daily and  adjust  the  solution  feeder  as/if
      necessary.  I actually check it about 1-2 times per week and daily
      for 2-3 days when I make adjustments.
      
      ...all  or  which  sounds  like  a  real  pain or like the joys of
      country living, depending on your attitude. I hope my sharing this
      will help someone else.  One word of caution.  As I sort of hinted
      at the beginning, your home water system is important.  Bad  water
      can be a serious hazzard.  If you don't feel comfortable with your
      DIY capability in this venue, get professional help.

    
    	RE: 845.30

	Well, ok, hardness is definitely a factor for those who have hard
water, but many water softeners are sold for iron problems which do not
necessarily include hard water.  For those who do not have hard water,
the modification *should* work, since the tank *does* definitely get back-
washed.  An additional problem would be that you would want to make sure
that you no longer filled the salt tank, since that would cause complica-
tions by introducing salt to a system not designed for its use.  Barring
those two things though, I see no reason why the conversion wouldn't work.
In fact, the service manual provided with my "iron filter" is actually a
"water softener" manual.  The two are identical except that there is an
oriface on the water softener that allows the salt to be drawn into the
tank for regeneration of the chemicals, that is not on my iron filter,
because I don't need the salt nor do I have a salt container.
	Of course, someone who does not feel comfortable with this idea
should not attempt it, but I believe a successfull conversion is possible.    

    RE .29
    	Water softeners use an ion exchange column to replace the magnesium
    and calcium in the water with sodium.  Ca and Mg in the water make
    it hard for soap to dissolve and hence the water is called hard.
    Exchanging these ions with sodium leads to water that is softer.
    After a while, depending on water flow and water hardness,  the
    sodium becomes depleted and you must add salt (sodium chloride)
    to recharge the column.  Keep in mind that the softening process
    can yield water high in sodium that can cause high blood pressure
    and is not too good for watering the plants.
    	Iron will be removed from the water as part of the softening
    process.  An system that is specifically designed to remove iron
    will use a different ion exchange media, but the process is essentially
    the same.  I'm no expert but I think it would be possible to convert
    a water softener to an specific iron removing system.  Both water
    softeners and iron removal systems work on the principle of ion
    exchange, not filtering.
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    (disclaimer: all above information is based upon chemistry classes
    taken long ago.)

>< Note 845.31 by SMURF::WALLACE "Life's a beach, then you dive!" >

>                           ...  For those who do not have hard water,
>the modification *should* work, since the tank *does* definitely get back-
>washed.

      I  think  you're wrong.  The tank on a water softener does not get
      "backwashed", it gets "regenerated".  Yes, the difference  may  be
      subtle  (especially if you don't feed it salt) but it is NOT clear
      that  the  water-softener  "regeneration"  cycle  would   properly
      "backwash" a tank that had been modified to be a fliter.

>In fact, the service manual provided with my "iron filter" is actually a
>"water softener" manual.  The two are identical except...
      
      Hmmm...  Now I'm beginning to wonder if I'm off-base?  Frankly I'd
      think that  the  different  processes  and  chemicals  used  would
      require  different configurations.  I wonder if this similarity is
      typical of differing brands?  
      
      I  also  wonder  how  similar/dissimiilar  the  controls  for  the
      "regeneration"/"backwash"  cycle  are?   Are  you  sure  that  the
      apparent  similarities  aren't  meerly  superfical?  (i.e. similar
      tanks and covers but different internals?)
      
>	Of course, someone who does not feel comfortable with this idea
>should not attempt it, but I believe a successfull conversion is possible.    

      As with all DIY its important to watch out so that one doesn't get
      in over one's head.  In this particular case I'm not  certain  the
      conversion  is  as straight forward as suggested.  I also would be
      concerned thet the converted unit might proove  unreliable  and/or
      not remove as much iron as you need removed. As I intimated above,
      I'm suspicious that the internals of these units have  subtle  but
      significant differences.  If your right you'll save yourself maybe
      $3-400 less the cost of the replacement chemicals/filter  material
      for the tank.  (I hope I'm in the balpark on those $'s.) I'd spend
      the extra money to  be  more  sure  that  my  water  system  would
      function safely and reliably.
      
      If  you  atually undertake this conversion I'd surely like to know
      about your results.

      .32  was  entered while I was entering .33, and the information in
      .32 seems to make  the  possiblity  of  conversion  somewhat  more
      optimistic.   I  didn't not know that the iron "filter" was an ion
      exchange; I though it was a chemical precipitation followed  by  a
      mechanical filter.

      HOWEVER  I stand by my concern that the regeneration processes for
      the iron  filter  and  the  water  softener  may  be  incompatibly
      different. 
      
      Anyone have more/better info?

    When I moved into my house two years ago there was an existing water
    softner.  I felt uneasy about the condition of the water and the
    pipes since the dishwasher was rust brown and not white with the
    cute blue speckles.  I had the water tested and found out that there
    was a very high level of sodium in the water along with magnesium
    and calcium.  I consulted with the local water expert, Commonwealth
    Water Purification Company, in Winchendon, MA.  They suggested getting
    rid of the Sodium backwash system and installing something to deal
    with the magnesium and calcium.  The price they quote was around
    $1200.  Money was very tight.  I suggested using the tank and timer
    from the existing system.  He agreed to do this and cut the price
    in half.  The process included emptying the tank, putting in new 
    chemicals and adding some additional holding tanks.  We were able 
    to clean out the pipes from the layers of rust.  The purpose of
    a water softner is to soften the water it does remove some but not
    all the rust.  
    
    I test the water every year and am able to drink the water except in 
    the spring when the water table is very high and in summer when the 
    water table is very low.
    

    
    Not to flog a dead horse (so to speak) BUT I am new to well ownership
    and have the sulpher smell problem. I have had a variety of suggestions
    and have read through well related stuff here. I keep getting
    references to chloronation (sp?) and super-chloronation. There must
    be an expensive chloronator but I have also heard of 'bleaching'
    the well on an annual basis. This is just what it suggests - dump
    10 gallons of bleach in the well, let set (24 hrs? 48 hrs?) then
    run enough water that this clears out.
    
    Anyone ever tried this??
    
    

    re: .30
    
    10 GALLONS!???  Gawd, no!  Maybe 1/2 gallon.  More likely a quart
    would do it.  You don't need much.  Probably you don't need to
    do it at all.  You'd need to do it only if you have a bacteria
    problem, and you probably don't.  In any case, it won't do a thing
    for sulphur.
    Your first step should probably be to get your water tesed to see
    what you've got.  I've used Rietzel Labs in Boylston, Mass., and
    there are others around.  Rietzel will give you sample bottles and
    directions on how to take samples if you stop by their lab - probably 
    other places will too.
    
    But more on bleaching a well, if you've got bacteria.  There's a
    formula for how much bleach to use based on the volume of the well,
    but if you add enough so you can just barely taste it, you'll have
    plenty.  Take the top off the well, and run a garden hose from your
    outside faucet back into the well.  Turn on the faucet, and dump
    maybe 2 cups of bleach in.  Let it circulate a while, and see if
    you can taste it.  If not, add a cup more.  Notice that you have
    to get away from the well and the bleach fumes for a while before
    you try tasting it, or your smell and taste will be overpowered
    by the fumes left over from dumping in the straight bleach.  When
    you've got an adequate concentration, let it circulate for a few
    hours; use the hose to wash down the sides of the well pipe.
    Then put the cap back on and let the well sit for a day or so before
    you use the water.  The first water out of the well after you do
    this will probably be very rusty, because you'll have stirred up
    all the sludge and crud on the sides of the well pipe.

      If  you  dump  chlorine bleach into your well to "sanitize" it you
      should run your water (perhaps out a hose?)  untill it  no  longer
      smells  of  chlorine before using the water.  That gets rid of the
      chlorine and of any thing in the water  that  was  killed  by  the
      chlorine.  Of course this is after you've let the chlorinated well
      sit for a while.
      
      Getting  your  water  tested is a good idea.  Sears will do it for
      free.  Get a sample bottle at any sears and mail it in.  You get a
      good analysis plus suggestions for which sears treatment equipment
      is recommended.  You can choose to use their equipment or not.

    My new water test results were showing:
    	SLIGHTLY HARD (1.4 gpg)
    	CLEAR WATER IRON (2.6 ppm)
    	PH (6.6)
    	DISSOLVED MINERALS (13 gpg)
    	STABILITY INDEX (12.4)		gpg = grains per gallon
    					ppm = parts per million
    					1 gpg = 17.1 ppm
    
    For this I installed:
    (in order of flow from input to output)
    
       	- PH NEUTRALIZER
    	- HIGH CAPACITY WATER SOFTENER (70 grains, totally electronic)
    	- PHOSPHATE FEEDER

    The first corrects the PH to bring it to 7.0 by running it through
    a bed of NUETRALIZER COMPOUND.
    The second unit removes the hardness AS WELL AS the clear water iron
    and the phosphate feeder neutralized the 'aggressiveness' (STABILITY
    INDEX) of the water.
    
    Outcome: JUST ABOUT PERFECT WATER! COST = ABOUT $1000 TOTAL!
    
    Thought I'd share the results of my LONG journey... happy drinking!

    I don't really know enough about these numbers to be able to interpret
    them well.  I wouldn't have thought that "slightly hard" required
    any softening, unless there were visible problems.  Our water test
    came back with that indication, but the water lathers fine, and
    there are no indications of hardness in the dishwasher or washing
    machine.  Likewise, I'd have guessed that a Ph of 6.6 was close
    enough.  Is it?
    
    Could you explain what the stability index is all about?
    
       Gary

    Regarding the 'slightly hard water'- yes I really didn't need to
    soften it at all, BUT, a water softener of the high capacity type
    will not only soften, but it will REMOVE IRON. That is REALLY why
    I installed the softener- to remove IRON and and residual hardness
    as a side benefit.
    
    You ask, "why didn't he use an IRON filter to do the IRON?"
    
    	1. I could do the IRON and HARDNESS with a softener.
    	2. The IRON filters are made to remove MUCH HIGHER concentrations
    		of IRON (about 20ppm) and as such, require a significant
    		expense and maintenance (adding chemicals, cleaning
    		etc).
    
    As for PH, ABSOLUTELY! the difference between 7.0 and 6.6 is BIG
    in water terminology. It will tend to make water taste 'funny'
    but more important, WILL corrode house plumbing and produce
    pin-hole leaks over many years. I opted to avoid that!
    
    The phosphate feeder also addressed the corrosion element by actually
    making a think coating on the inside of the pipes and fixtures.
    
    Works just like they said it would.... perfect.
    
    Mark

    
    Regards .30 and following - I talked it over with a variety of well
    owners then picked the solution that the guy I've known the longest
    uses. Although his well is deeper, I used the same method he uses.
    I dumped 10 gallons of Clorox down the well. I ran each and every
    faucet in the house both hot and cold until I smelled clorox from
    each (by the way yes that filled the HWH and yes I bypassed the
    water softner). I then ran a loop from beneath the pressure tank
    to the well and rinsed the well casing down then let the hose from
    the same place run out on the grass until it got all the real gag
    stuff out. I let it set until the next evening - about 24 hours.
    I then ran the hose from below the tank until it no longer smelled
    - ie the well itself was flushed of clorox. I then ran the outside
    faucets until those lines were flushed. I then ran a hose from my
    utility sink and flushed the HWH through that. None of the above
    went into the septic of course. Once that was all clear I ran each
    and every faucet on hot and cold until no clorox smell. And started
    using the water for other than drinking. I used bottle water for
    a few days. So far NO repeat of the sulpher smell at all and teh
    water tastes better than it ever has.
     If it comes back, I'll advise here.
    
    

    	> 2. The IRON filters are made to remove MUCH HIGHER
    	> concentrations of IRON (about 20ppm) and as such,
    	> require a significant expense and maintenance
    	> (adding chemicals, cleaning etc).
                                      
    	The first part is right, but iron filters do not require
    	maintenance in the form of adding chemicals, cleaning, etc.
    	Just the opposite is true.   Softeners are the ones that
    	require chemicals be replenished, namely salt.  A true iron
    	filter only needs to be backwashed periodically, as does the
    	softener.
    
    	Do you have to add chemicals to your unit after certain
    	periods of time?

    RE: .39
    
    	EVERY hi-cap iron filter that I called about, saw in person, or was
    recommended to buy REQUIRED backwashing and the addition of POTASSIUM
    PERMANGENATE (a green/blue chemical). (High capacity means 20ppm
    or above)
    
    Maybe .39 was talking about a low-capacity iron filter?
    
    Mark

    	Well, mines rated for up to 20ppm which I thought was high
    capacity since it was the only one I saw that even went up to that
    amount.  Most others were below 10ppm.
    
    	When you say "...addition of POTASSIUM PERMANGENATE", do you
    mean consistently?  Like at every backwash?  

    I would like to know how to convert a deepwell pump into a shallow
    well pump.  The deep well has two lines going out, one for drive
    and one for suction.  Do you have to buy a special conversion kit
    that changes it to just one suction line ????
                                           

    My neighbor and I use a converted deepwell jet pump when we want
    to lower the water level in his pond. (Don't ask why we do this)
    All that seems to be changed on this pump is that the line that
    feeds water back down the well to the ejector has been plugged on
    the pump housing.
    
    Nick

    I think the potassium permangenate filters are the "old" iron
    filter technology.  The air-injection approach is, I think, 
    fairly new and relatively uncommon.  A lot of dealers may not
    even know about it.  Can anybody confirm or deny  this opinion?

    re .34
    Hope you flushed out the washing machine as well... if you didn't
    and ran a load of dark clothes ... no doubt you now know just what
    bleach can do... I forgot the washing machine when I bleached my
    "brand new" well ....( caught a lot of grass etc on the pvc when
    we snaked that 400' line down the hole causing nasties in the water)
    	Good luck.. 
    
    
    	Matt
    

    
    My water has iron, low ph and is moderately hard.  We did lots of research
    and thought we found what we wanted in water treatment systems but the 
    general manager from the company we were going to go with turned out
    to be a sleeze ball. They delivered the wrong system and when I talked 
    with him on the phone he told me we really need the system he
    delivered (a water softener) plus a filter (what we really
    ordered)...and he would give me a 'great' deal.  He said if we use a 
    filter to eliminate the iron and neutralize the ph, the ph process
    would cause our moderately hard water to become very hard.
    Consequently, he said we need to use BOTH systems.  He also said if we 
    only use the softener, we would lower the iron (not eliminate) and
    lower the hardness but the process for the hardness would make our ph 
    even more acid.  He said the too much acid would eat the pipes (I
    knew this) and too much hardness would clog pipes (never heard this
    before).  
    
    This guy was a piece of slime but has since been fired from the
    company so I won't give a bad rap to them.  I would write his 
    comments off as bulls**t, but I wonder. Was there any fact or was
    it all fiction. The original sales guy who came to our house suggested 
    both units but we stated we'd only go with the filter.  He never
    mentioned we would cause the hardness to become worse if we went this 
    route.  However, he was also pretty new to the job so maybe he didn't know.
    
    Anyway, for those of you who have the same combination of water
    problems as I, have you heard this story before?  Has anyone heard
    this story before?  If we bought everything he suggested it was close
    to $3,000. However, he had a special deal just for me and would have
    given both for $1,600.
    
    Even though the company fired the general manager, we decided not
    to do any business with the company at all so we're back to where
    we started.  
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Kathy

    
    Very hard water will clog pipes (very fast). Hard water also destroyes
    hotwater tanks.
    
    Mike

    Re .43
    
    We have mildly excessive iron, excessive "manganese" and "calcium".
    The reason for the "" is that we actually have compounds of those
    metals present, but the industry tends to refer to them by those
    terms.  SLIGHT hardness is actually beneficial to the copper piping;
    it forms a protective layer on the pipe and prevents further
    corrosion, much like what happens to aluminum exposed to air.
    Excessive hardness is bad for water usage and for the pipes; but
    it really has to be excessive to cause damage.  I'm not quoting
    numbers here because my reference stuff is at home.
    
    It sounds like your situation is similar to ours.  We have a
    double sediment filter with replaceable cartridges, followed by
    a conventional water softener (replaces the above compounds with
    "sodium") which has worked very well for us.  The main effect has
    been that crud doesn't build up in the tubs, shower stalls, sinks,
    and toilets, and we use about one half as much laundry detergent
    as formerly.  Cost about $1800 in the appropriate size for our
    house and family, installed, with a bypass to the exterior sill-
    cocks for watering the garden and other outside use.
    
    pbm
      
    

	Kathy,

	It's true that hard water will deposit material on the pipes, but
	nobody ever gives figures for how long it would take x-amount of
	restriction for x-amount of hardness.  Depending on the levels
	that you have, it may take 50 years to notice any difference at
	all.  Maybe you could post your water test results and those of
	us who have already invested in these things could make a relation
	between what worked and what didn't.

	It sounds like the salesman gave you a real good price though.  I
	know when I was looking, companies wanted $1300 to $1500 just for
	an iron filter.  Even though the salesman was a jerk, it sounds
	like you would have got a great deal.  Of course, I say that not
	knowing what capacity filter and softener you were quoted, nor
	your water test results, so it's possible it may not have been
	such a deal either.  Any specifics?

    Well, just to check out my 'water system' (see previuos note)
    which was installed (by me) I sent a water sample to a water
    testing Lab. Here are the results:
    
    IRON:	Orig : 2.6	Now: 0.2
    PH		Orig : 6.7	Now: 7.0
    Hardness:	Orig : 1.4	Now: 0.5
    Stability:	Orig : 12.4	Now: 10.0
    
    I am satisfied! For about $1000.00 (total) I am in GREAT water!
    

    I don't see how any treatment system could INCREASE hardness of
    water.  After all, the water comes into your house with a given
    amount of various things dissolved and/or suspended in it, and
    I don't believe any water treatment you give it is going to ADD
    anything to the water.  Hard water will indeed clog up pipes over
    time, but the rest of the salesman's spiel sounds to me like...a
    salesman's spiel.

    
    Thanks for the responses.  The feedback really helps. 
    
    The results for our water testing were:
    Test Parameters          EPA Max        Results          Units
    ---------------          _______        -------          -----
    Acidity Value (PH)         5-9            6.4             SU
    Hardness                 No Limit        53.7            mg/1
    Iron                       .3              .29           mg/1
    Manganese                  .050            .045          mg/1
    
    
    
    Northeast Water Conditioning recommended we use an all purpose filter
    for the iron and acid problem. Filter uses ferrite or manganese
    green sand. 5 gpm backwash flow rate required with 20-12 psi water
    pressure limits.  For the hardness problem they recommended a water
    refiner that featured 5-cycle regeneration.
    
    Ideal is to get 1 system to eliminate  as many nasties as possible - 
    without adding salt - or anything else, really - and as cheaply as
    possible.      
    
    We started out just wanting to get rid of the iron but it turned
    into a pandora's box type thing.
    
    Given these added details, any recommendations?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Kathy
    
    

    The consumer reporter for channel 5 is doing a report on water filters
    Wednesday night on the 6:00 news (Paula Lyons). I'm not sure how
    informative it might be but it may be of help to people that are
    still trying to decide what, if, and how about filters. Hopefully
    she'll also go over competive costs and functionality. Hope this
    is of help to someone out their...
    
    	Chuck
    

    
    Water from my new well tested low in pH and high in turbidity.
    Several shops offered to sell me all-purpose filters for $700.
    I showed the test results to the people at AF Water Conditioning in
    Ayer, Mass.  They said that the pH was not corrosive, and recommended
    a $20 filter to clear up the turbidity.
    
    I think there are a lot of crooks in this business.  I recommend
    that people have an independent lab run your water test, then
    bring or phone the results to AF.  They are on Route 111 in downtown 
    Ayer, 508-772-6773.

    Well, well, well.
    
    We've got the same problem as .0 does (did?).  The most
    natural way to expand our house would bring the well inside
    the boundary of the extended slab.
    
    It's not clear from the discussion here what the resolution
    ever was regarding having a well inside the house.
    
    We live in Massachusetts, and have not yet talked to the
    building inspector about our potential plans.
    
    

Well :-), it's been a few months so lets dig :-) this topic out again.

We recently closed on a house with a well.  This house was vacant for
at LEAST a year.  Initially, the water smelled and looked like s**t.
Probably tastes as bad but dunno, we won't drink it.  The water pressure
seemed really good.  The bacteria test just came back and confirmed our
initial suspicions.  There was coliform in an amount TNTC (too numerous
to count! [yeck-o!]).  Along with the test results came instructions
for disinfecting the well with a 5% solution of clorox bleach (1 gal
clorox to 10 gals good water).  Fine and dandy.

Now we're lining up somebody to check for contamination sources and
help us with the well but...Now the water looks alot better, ie, its
mostly clear and the smell isn't as offensive.  We still won't drink
it.  Since the water cleared up there's also been a change in the 
water pressure.  Now, when you turn the faucet on you get a good flow
for about 5 seconds and then it slows steadily down until it reaches
a level that I consider unsatisfactory and stays there.  This happens
everywhere in the house.  With an 82 gallon hot water tank, I could
take a shower at this pressure level for an awfully long time and the
water stays good and hot, it just don't come out fast enough for me.

We're still gonna disinfect and retest but we're wondering if there's
any relation between the quality of the water and the pressure that we
see inside the house.  Could these things be related ?  We have a pump
in the house that we set to come on at 50 and go off at 70.  If you
look at the guage at any given moment its sitting at 60.  A demand for
the water will lower the level (low pressure here) to 50 at which point
the pump will come on and the guage goes upto 70 and if the demand is
still there the guage will begin a slow cycle of 70->50->70-> again.
Does this relate ? or is there something else wrong ?  I'm really used
to taking hurricane force showers and would like to do the same thing
with my well/pump system.  Enough rambling, the questions I have are:

Is the initial grossness normal ?
Can quality be related to quantity ?
Is it normal for well systems to act this way (cycling, slow flow) ?
Any advice on what to check ?  How to ?

We're really nervous because this is our first well system.  Even on
city water we drank bottled water.  False sense of security, I know,
but it tasted better.  The doctors we talked to said don't worry about
the coliform but they don't have to wash people, dishes, clothes, etc.
with it.

Any help out there from those of you with well wells ?

Thanks.
Scott.

    Yeah, you don't need to worry about the coliform; it's totally
    harmless.  It is, however, an indicator that other (bad) stuff
    *might* be present.
    
    At 50 psi, you shouldn't have any water pressure problems.  You
    may have crud in the pipes at some point that is cutting down
    the flow, although it's not clear why you get an initial surge
    of a good flow rate.  If you haven't, try removing the filter
    screens (if any) on your faucets and cleaning them out.  Perhaps
    put a hose on the drain for your pressure tank and let it flush
    itself out.  Turn off the water in the house, and drain all the
    pipes...in other words, see if you can get rid of any crud in
    the pipes, if there is any, and see if that helps any.  
    One thing you can do to perhaps localize the problem: if you
    put a hose on your pressure tank drain, and find that you have
    the same pressure drop phenomenon there, then you know the problem
    is someplace between there and the well.
    There may be crud in the bottom of the well that is blocking up
    the pump intake.  Lots of possibilities.  Just keep looking.  But
    50 psi ought to be giving you all the water flow you want, unless
    your water demands are really extreme.

RE: < Note 439.37 by MTWAIN::WELLCOME  >


Thanks,

Really, 50 psi is plenty ? Ooops.  Last night I was playing around with
the pump and got it to come on 68 and go off at 85.  Now the flow is
even faster and stays good and fast.  You can wash your hands but if you
flush a toilet the pump comes on, but I can live with that.  Did I do a
good thing or did I put my water system in emergency self-destruct mode by 
cranking the pressure up ?  My pump/tank is rated for 100 psi max. Can I
assume that if my pipes don't explode that I'll be okay ???

It's good to know that the coliform isn't killing us - just grosses you
out a bit...

Thanks again :-)
Scott.

    Most water tanks are rated 100 PSI test pressure (when new) and 70 PSI
    maximum working pressure. There should be a relief valve set at the max
    working pressure in case the pump fails to shut off. Unless you have a
    tank rated at 100 PSI working pressure, running your tank at 85 PSI is
    dangerous. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near your house when it blows!

    If you have a typical deep well submersible pump and a pressure
    storage tank, a fairly common operating cycle is: ON at 25 psi,
    OFF at 60 psi.  You're obviously 'way above that, possible cycling
    the well pump too often and risking destroying the bladder in the
    pressure tank.  85psi is uncomfortably close to typical 100 psi
    maximum, especially on an older system.
    
    There's no reason why you should not be able to take a "hurricane-
    force" shower at a rate of about 3 gal/min, regulated by a typical
    "water-saver" shower head.             
    
    If you think well water supply systems are fun, wait 'til you start
    checking out your septic system.
    
    pbm
    

    Speaking of septic systems and wells... I had a friend that bought
    a house with a well. The well was supposed to be an artesian well
    but turned out to be a hand-dug well. It was about 11 feet deep
    and was located about 15 feet from the septic system. It *did* cause
    many health problems.
    
    	Do you know where your septic system is???? COuld that be the
    source of your water contamination? 
    
    

< Note 439.41 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >

>    and was located about 15 feet from the septic system. It *did* cause
>    many health problems.
>    
>    	Do you know where your septic system is???? COuld that be the
>    source of your water contamination? 
    
	I doubt if the septic is too near the well though I'm not ruling out 
	anything until I talk with both the well & septic people, have the 
	plumber look for any stray cross-connections, test the water for about 
	six months, etc.  
	
	I'm taking no chances with the water, will let everybody know...
	
	Thanks.
	Scott.

We had just about the same symptoms described (without the contamination,
phew) -- water came on just fine, then pressure dropped but the PSI looked
okay on the pump.  To our total embarrassment it had an easy solution, it
was caused by our water filter being totally clogged up.  I've never had
a house with a filter in the water-pipe so being told that this house had
such a setup didn't imply any action to me!  The filter was so clogged with 
iron that it looked like a brick cylinder -- replacing the filter solved
the problem, easy and relatively cheap.  Any chance it's something that
simple for you?


Jan  who_learns_more_with_each_disaster

    re: .43
    
    	I know it sounds unrelated but I had a problem with a car I
    owned that had similar effects. The fuel filter was clogged. The
    car would run great for a while then loose power and finally stall.
    It seems that the clog would settle when the car was not in operation.
    Once the car was started the clogging material would be carried
    back into the filter and would resume blocking the flow of the
    gasoline. 
    	Your problem sounds similar. After removing the old filter I
    would suggest putting a bucket under the filter port and flush a
    few gallons of water out of the supply side of the pipe to clear
    any left over material. This may prolong the life of the new filter
    a bit.

Filter ?  That's the thingie that looks like a skein of yarn right ? :-)

My filter is contained in some kind of contraption with a red button on
top.  I assume this red button doesn't mean danger, but pressure release.
Do I need to drain the tank to change a filter ???

Thanks.
Scott.

    Re .45
    
    You don't need to drain the tank, but you probably have a shutoff
    valve on either side of the filter which you must close, or get
    a 60 psi flood in your basement.  Relieve the pressure on the
    filter (maybe the red button?), unscrew it - probably an O-ring
    seal - and change the cartridge.  Naturally, you will obtain a
    replacement cartridge first.  Don't be tempted to run the system
    without the cartridge, or several weeks from now you will have a
    flood from your washing machine, dishwasher, or refrigerator ice-maker
    when the solenoid valves jam open because of accumulated sediment.
    If the sediment is bad enough, it will also jam push-pull mixing
    valves in faucets.
    
    A new cartridge will cost you less than ten bucks, probably less
    than five.
    
    pbm
    

I have a well pump that turns on for about 1qt of water drained.  If more
than 1qt is drained (from a shower, etc.) the pump turns on then off, on
then off, throughout the entire shower until it finally decides to stop.

The pump is relatively new and worked fine back in the summer.  I have great
water pressure and an ocean of water when I need it.

People tell me that maybe the well tank hasn't any air in it.  They say 
that if it were the case, then the turn on/off of the pump would change,
due to the atmospheric conditions changing in the vacuum.

I've lost power since the summer, and have drained the system periodically
to replace an in-line water filter.  I guess this could be when the air
that was in the system leaked out.

Can anyone confirm?  Any other explanations?  And most of all, how the heck
do you correct the problem before my motor fries?

Thx. rep

    1) The control might be mis-set or faulty.  It might have the low
    and high pressure limits set too close together.
    
    2) The air supply is (should be) sealed from the water supply. 
    Draining the system would not normally let air out.
    
    3) Turn off the well pump and see how long the water runs at a faucet.
    It should go for several minutes before running dry.  If it doesn't
    then you may indeed have lost your air charge.  You need a compressor,
    pressure gauge, and a funny fitting to recharge it.  Probably easiest
    to call a well man who could probably do it for very little.
    
    If you have enough pressure to run a faucet for several minutes
    with the pump off, then I'd look at the control, not the tank.

re .0:

	It sounds to me as though your system has lost its pre-charge of
air.  Low air pressure will cause the fast-cycling behavior you describe.
Since air compresses much more readily than water, a given pressure change
will require a larger volume of water if it's air, and not the water itself,
that is being compressed. 

	See note 2853 (particularly .3 and .4) for instructions on how to
pre-charge your water tank.

Re. ALL

Thx. for your help.  My tank was discharged and in consultation with a friend
of the family, he guided me through the steps.

What's interesting is that the reference notes that were just pointed out
mentioned that you must re-pressurize your tank.  I didn't do that and it
worked just fine.

All I did was drain the tank and the air from the outside did the rest.  When
I turned the pump back on, voila!  No more problem.  My pump turns on @30psi
and off @50psi.  That's fine to me.

So, what's all that re-pressurizing the tank supposed to do that just letting
air into the tank won't do?

Thx. rep

RE: .3

>All I did was drain the tank and the air from the outside did the rest. 

>So, what's all that re-pressurizing the tank supposed to do that just letting
>air into the tank won't do?

It's a matter of how much water will be available each cycle and hence how
often your pump will cycle.  It works like this:  at the beginning, there is
atmospheric pressure (AP) in the tank (15# more or less).  To reach 30# above
AP, the volume of air must be compressed (30+15)/15 = 3 times.  Say you have a
60 gallon tank.  The original 60 gal of air would be compressed to 20 gal. 
When the pressure is increased to 45#, the volume of air will be:
60 x 15 / (45+15) = 15gal.  Therefore the difference in volume between 30# and
45# is 5 gal (20-15).  This is what can be delivered from pump-off (at 45#) to
pump-on (at 30#).

If the tank had been pre-charged with 30# when empty, the air volume at 45#
would be: 60 x (30+15)/(45+15) = 45 gal.  Now the difference in volume is 
15 gal. (60-45).  I.e, your pump only runs 1/3 as often.  It runs longer each
time, but that's better than running more often.

I know that these numbers aren't yours exactly, but I used ones that make the
arithmetic easy.  The principle doesn't change.

Bob

Re. .4

Ok.  That makes sense.  The more AP, the less space available for water 
in the tank, BUT the less times the pump turns on/off.

Interesting.  What's optimal?  I guess it depends on your tank size, and
your household requirments right (like kids in/out of showers, etc.)?

Thx. rep

< Note 439.36 by COORS::S_LEDOUX "AAAAAaaaaaHHHHHaaaaa...< Splat! >" >
          -< More well woes.  Water is yucky and it don't flow fast. >-

You may recall the above note where I stated that I had both coliform
and bacteria in my well water test.  The bacteria were "TNTC - Too
numerous to count", which is the 2nd worst it can be.  The worst count
is "confluent", which to me means "bubonic plague" I guess.  Well, I
dumped a gallon of clorox and 3 gallons of water down the well, waited
a few week and retested.  

The good news is:  The water is now fine...Perfect.
The bad news is:   Last night some pipes froze and now my crawlspace
                   is full of perfect well water.... :-)  Home ownership
                   is such fun!
                   
Thanks, Everyone.
Scott.

    I am looking for information on systems which will take sulfur
    out of our water.  Both the hot and cold water smell like rotten
    eggs and we have a brownish yellow stain on tubs and toilets.
    This is a new house in Groveland we built, and has well water.
    
    We went to Sears and sent away for a water test and are still awaiting
    the test results.  Based on our description of the problem, the system 
    suggested by the Sears salesman had 3 seperate components and cost $1,000,
    if we install it.  It had something to do with putting chlorine into
    the water and did not require much maintenance (which is what we
    would like).  Have not seen any notes on this yet.
               
    Any information on types of systems and their cost would be
    appreciated.
    
    Susan

    re: -1, take a look at their lab report. It probably will
    show their chemical mixer and a 42 gallon holding/mixing  tank.
    Additionally, they may be adding in an IRON filter- the most
    probable cause of the brown/yellow stains.
    
    If you get away with $1000 (u instl it), with that type of
    water you described, I would count my blessings and go with it.
    
    If you prefer to go to another brand, it would probably end up costing
    more and doing about the same- BUT, check around. What ever you
    do, if you go to another supplier, make sure they are willing to
    take back anything that THEY recommend if it doesn't solve the problem.
    It tends to make them 'more responsible' about their suggestions.
    
    (I am using SEARS equipment and find it works JUST FINE, no complaints)
    
    Mark
    

    
    We have the same problem in Ashby Ma.  We had the water tested and
    it contained "acceptable" levels of hydrogen sulfide !! It was
    explained to us that there are pockets of the gas in the ground
    and the problem can dissappear as fast as it appeared ! I was
    given a "verbal" quote of $300 - $500 for a charcoal filter system
    with two filters, one designed for the gas and one for the iron.
    The only thing was the filters cost about $25 apiece and depending
    on the levels in the water may have to be changed monthly !!!$$$
    In the long run the $1,000 sounds good for a "no maintenance"
    system. 
    We buy bottled water and have begun to notice days that the odor
    is almost unnoticable.
    We dealt with Skillings and Sons in Hollis New Hampshire ...
    
    ace
    

    Mr. Moderator- pls don't delete this note . I looked high and low
    and couldn't find any discussion of this *important* topic.
    
      
      I live in the boonies of Southern NH and have an artesian well
    for a water supply to my house. I am attempting to sell my house
    to relo and had to go thru the normal battery of test before sale.
    Lo and behold my water test came back saying I have Arsenic in my
    water. Guidelines for allowable limits are .05 MCL and my test
    came back .059 MCL. I don't want *any* of this stuff in my water.
    My concerns are for my pregnant wife and 3yr old. Are there filters
    available to remove this crap? What are the different ways one can
    combat this problem. I will retest the water to make sure. The
    house/well is 10 yrs old and was built on old farmland. There is
    no industry nearby and I'm baffled as what to do. 
    
    Any help out there?
    
    Thanx
    M. 
    

    
    Arsenic, yuk, I wouldn't blame you for your concern.
    
    The AMWAY filter will remove it. However, it's not really a whole house
    type filter since it uses 3/8" lines and definitely causes a pressure
    drop. I have mine on an auxiliary faucet in the kitchen, and use that
    for making any drinks or cooking, etc. If you're only concerned with
    ingesting the arsenic then this is a viable solution. The filter runs
    around $300 with the aux faucet and the cartridge lasts about a year.
    
    Good luck
    
    CdH
    

I'd be careful with just using a filter, though I admit to not knowing awhole
lot about thier effectiveness vs. the As concentration.

A friend of mine who's a chemical engineer and used to be in charge of health 
& safety at HLO found arsenic in his well water.  He told me the only effective
way for him to deal with the concentrations he had was to actually install a
still in his basement and brew his own distilled water - a filter would NOT have
been adequate for his needs.

-mark

    
 .3    Technically your correct but the difference here is only .009mcl
    (would that read 9 parts per *billion*).
    
        I did some research and called the DEQE in Concord NH and an
    engineer said something about a "reverse osmosis" filter which fits
    under my sink and would be less expensive than distillation. A woman
    at Cullinet filters said today she had a sale for those filters-----
    ---only $790 installed. OUCH!
    
 .2    Iwould be very interested to know where you got your AMWAY filter
    and if you would be kind enough to provide me with a number/address.
    
    
    Good ideas so far... Anymore out there?
    
    thanx.
    M.

Just as another comment, just because something is only 9 ppb doesn't
necessarily mean it's not much.  There are chemicals that are out there that
will kill you in quantities measured in parts per trillion!

-mark

    Here are two sources of information and quotations on methods to
    fix the problem:
    
    Policy Well & Pump, Salem, New Hampshire
    WaterFixx Corporation, Manchester New Hampshire
    
    Keep us posted, please.
    
    pbm
    

    I just installed a unit I got from Sears catalog.  total cost $400.
    It sells for $350 and an extra $50 for extra pipes & fittings. 
    we installed it in 2 hours.  they carry one type for clorinated
    water and one for non clorinated water.
    
    We dedided to go this route because the filters can be mail ordered
    and the sears model cuts off the water when the tank is full.  the
    older model we have runs all the time and I have had trouble getting
    a new membrane for it.

    What about those inexpensive canister type, taste and odor filters?
    I believe they are activated charcoal membranes that remove numerous
    chemical polutants. It appears as though your situation is borderline
    as far as the need to treat. With this being the case, wouldn't
    a $40 cartridge unit installed on the cold water supply to the kitchen
    or even the whole house do the trick?

    
    .7
          I, too, had first thought about that as well but, like radon
    filters, once the filter has served its purpose it becomes a problem.
    What do you with some *heavy duty* toxic waste now residing in this
    cannister? I have made numerous phone calls and the principle of
    reverse osmosis filter, altho expensive, seems to cover all the
    bases. 
    
          Basically, an r.o. filter will run the water thru a particle
    filter first then deposit the filtered water in a small tank where
    the water is then pressurized and "forced" thru a membrane into
    another holding tank as pure drinkable water. All contaminants such
    as arsenic are trapped on the "pressurized" side and are subsequently
    disposed of into the septic tank via a backflushing process (I assume).
    The pure water is then transferred to the sink(s) via separate faucets
    for consumption. This process makes about 12 gallons a day. The
    filters and membranes last for 2-3 years before they are replaced.
    It's alot of money (hence the shopping around/alternatives) but
    I guess piece of mind doesn't come cheap! 

    I will keep people posted as to the final outcome.
    
    M.
    

    re: 3108.6
    
    this is a reverse osmois unit.  because I am chemically sensitive
    I change the charcole every 6 months instead of once a year like
    they claim you should for a family of 4.  we are 2.
    
    replacement membrames $68.  filters under $15 each.  not bad in
    my book.

    
    This is more or less a poll to see if there is anyone else out
    there with the same problem as myself.  I've searching this notesfile
    for topics on radon, but I did not find a subject on radon in
    well water.
    
    	I'm currently selling my house (or trying to!), but after having
    a radon test on my well water, I found that I have more than the
    EPA recommended dosage.
    
    	Does anyone out there have any experience with water filters
    connected to well pumps?
    
    	I've just started calling companies that sell and install filters
    for radon contaminated water, and the first one I called had a system
    for $3400!!!!  Wow!!   Boy, I need help fast!!
    
  - John
    

    I seem to remember that one way to get radon out of well is aeration.
    It might turn out cheaper that a filter.
    
    Eric

    
    Re: Eric
    
    Yes, this process is called aeration.  I've called two companies
    so far, and both say the aeration system cost right around $3K.
    
    I'll most likely go with the carbon type, which both these companies
    sell, but do not recommend.  Apparently the carbon process doesn't
    always work, and not as well.  But, the cost is $1100 compared with
    $3K.  Hey, I'm just trying to sell the house and get out.  Why should
    I take the blame for this radon, when it's been around since the
    beginning of time?    It's just not fair!
    
     - John
    

    Hi John,
    
    I just ordered a filter that's supposed to remove aluminum, zinc,
    lead, rust, a bunch of other stuff that I can't remember, and RADON.
    It was through one of those promotional deals, but since there's
    a money-back guarantee, I figure I'm safe. The cost was $400, including
    shipping and handling. It doesn't filter the water supply for the
    entire house, it's just for the kitchen sink. I can provide more
    information if you want.
     

We're in the same boat.  There was a story that made the news (AP) a couple
weeks ago about a guy in Dunbarton, NH whose well water had the highest level
of radon ever recorded in NH, New England, the East or something.  Well, he
lives across the street from us.  Since that measurement (Nov? 1988) other
folks, also on our street, have recorded higher levels.

EPA says its maximum acceptable level of radon is 30,000 picocuries per
milliliter (I think that's the measurement).  (I've also heard EPA wants to
lower that to 2,000!)  Our water was tested at 497,000.  Other folks on our
street recorded in the millions!  The guy who made the headlines is treating
his water and it's now fine.  I'll try to find out how he's treating it.

The water treatment outfit we bought our water softener from used to recommend
some radon-in-water treatment outfit in Laconia?, NH.  This treatment, however,
introduced? uranium? or some other complication, making the result worse than
it was to start with.  Our outfit is now in R&D on their own, affordable, fix.

Anyway, a lot of this above stuff is hearsay.  Dunbarton officials are bringing
in some NH State geologists and radon specialists and treatment hucksters
next Wednesday (Apr. 5) for a town meeting/question&answer deal.  I'll take
notes.

There's been a bit of discussion in this conference about whether radon is a
real problem or not.  I have to wonder about our situation:  people have lived
in Dunbarton, on the same wells that are now testing high in radon, to ripe
old ages.  Have they survived mega-doses of radon?  Did they never take showers?
On the other hand, no matter if you think radon is only the latest media craze),
when *YOUR* water is tested at 16 TIMES beyond what EPA recommends as being
healthy, there is some concern.  And, as in .0, no matter what *YOU* believe,
the fact that banks and potential buyers consider it a problem _makes_ it a
problem.

I'll report back on anything I find out.

Oh, yes, another piece of hearsay about aeration (or any treatment) ...
What do you do with the waste?  If you remove radon/iron/arsenic/whatever from
your water, then what do you do with it?  I think this is part of what makes
it so expensive.

re: filter for kitchen sink only.

I don't think this is very useful, as I believe that showering brings the 
highest exposure to radon.  As the water is sprayed in fine particles, the 
radon escapes, creating a high concentration in the air in the shower stall.

Paul

A bit of data from the DEQE (Dept of Env Quality Engineering, if you
aren't from Mass), plus a personal opinion.

The normal dispersion rate of radon from water into the air is about
10,000:1.  So if you've got 30,000 piC/l (pico-curies per liter) in your
water, it should add about 3 piC/l to your airbord radon level.  While
it is in the water, it won't hurt you, it's only after it gets into the
air, attaches to a dust particle, and lodges in your lungs to irradiate
you with alpha particles that it increases your chance of getting cancer.

If you use a carbon filter, it concentrates the radon and becomes toxic
waste in its own right!  I don't gather that there are regulations (yet)
for disposing of them, but I sure wouldn't want to deal with that problem
down the road.  Maybe the people buying the house would accept a credit
for the amount of installing the carbon filter, and then they can make
the decision for themselves.

The aerator releases all that radon into the air... that's not a problem
because the concentration is always low, and it's radon that would have
made it into the atmosphere anyway, eventually.  But presumably you have
to vent the aerator to the outside.

As to why people could live to ripe old ages with water that has 1M piC/l
of radon -- I can think of two big factors.  First, houses used to be
pretty drafty -- if you heated with a fireplace, the air in the house was
all the time being sucked up the chimney.  So a huge water radon level
might not have meant that there was a huge airborne level.  And second,
even if we assume that radon is a dangerous as they say it is, we're still
just talking about an increased chance of getting cancer -- not a sure thing.
Driving is pretty dangerous, too (I'd guess more dangerous), but lots of
people drive and still live to a ripe old age.  Nonetheless, it is
worthwhile to try to minimize the dangers of driving, and I think that it
is also worthwhile to try to minimize the dangers from radon.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re: .-2 reverse osmosis and periodic backflushing
    
    R.O. units that I have seen have continual runoff from the pressure
    side of the membrane (waste water).
    
    Units up to 25 gallons/day can usually be run off home water pressure
    (30-50 psi).  Units with higher capacities usually include feed
    pumps (not typical for most users).
    
    __Rich

    
       I just attended a seminar on radon that was conducted by
    a doctor with a nuclear engineering background.  It was very
    informative.
    
       RE: Water -  Those with town water shouldn't worry because
                    municipal supplies are aerated thus eliminating
                    the source.
       
                    Those with well water should use aeration if
                    there is a problem.
    
       RE: Radon -  Radon is not the danger it is the radon
                    daughters (decay by-products) which are a
                    danger.   55% of normal background radiation
                    that people are exposed to daily is from
                    naturally occuring radon gas (no you can't
                    hide from it)
    
                    Only the non-fractional radon by-products
                    are dangerous.  Let me try to explain what
                    was presented.
    
                    * Radon decays into by-products, some adhere
                    to materials, thus no human exposure (not-respirable);
    
                    Some particles cling to dust and are breathed in
                    and then OUT.  Our bodies are efficient dust filters.
    
                    Some non-fractional particles get by the body
                    filtering system and are deposited into the
                    sensitive tissue of the lower trachea (not the
                    lungs themselves)  Most radon lung cancers are
                    tracheal-bronchial as oppossed to other types
                    of cancer.
    
              There are proven ways to mitigate radon build-up
              (cost money yes, but they are there).
    
           If anyone has a specific question I'll try and remember
           some of the other points/data mentioned.

    Which has the worse record, dug or point/artesian wells?
    Is there any correlation between well depth and gas concentration?
    
    - craig
    

>                                      Most radon lung cancers are
>                    tracheal-bronchial as oppossed to other types
>                    of cancer.
   
Did he mention how they determine if the cancer is caused by radon?  At 
least two years ago there was no way to tell.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
      RE: .9   I don't know if he said that was a 100% conclusion,
               but the radon daughters particulate size and mode
               of transportation has shown that if there is a cancer
               in the tracheal-bronchial area, it is a pretty good
               chance it could be from radon daughter's decay, because
               particulates from cigarette smoke, other substances,
               etc... have a tendancy to settle elsewhere in the
               respiratory system.
    
               Now if you smoke and inhale radon decay products then
               I would imagine there would be a wider deposition of
               material caused by multiple substances.  Which one
               is going to get you first, who knows.   We can do
               something about smoking, about air pollution, about
               concentrated radon in air and water, but the background
               stuff is going to get you anyway, but hopefully over
               a longer period of time, and by then something else
               will probably get you.
    
                                         Mark
                                 

    
       RE: .8  I don't think there is anyway to qualify whether a
               dug or artesian well is going to have more or less
               radon or for that matter for depth/concentration either.
    
               Concentrations (presence) of radon will vary with
               geology of the well site.  The only sure way to know
               is to check each site individually to determine
               this information.
    
               In any case, well water should be aerated.
    
                                              Mark
    

    I also went to sell my house and found out about by radon problem
    in the well water.... I had approximatly 63000 perci's per whatever
    in my water... I researched the various methods of eliminating the
    radon from my water.... I finally ended up going with the air-ation
    method.. because: (don't know how to spell air-ation)
    
    		1) no toxic waste to get rid of... The radon gas from
    		the water id vented outdoors and causes no potential harm.
    
    		2) Air-ation systems ususally eliminate 95% of radon from
    		water and brings you into EPA guidelines.
    	
    		3) A pretty much non-maintainence system.
    
    		4) In my opionon, makes your house easier to sell once
    		potential buyer finds out about radon problem and also
    		finds out you have installed the best system.
    
    		5) I personally moved out of house and moved back to mass.
    		to get into a town with sewer and water.... My situation
    		was in Londonderry, and the town nor the state wanted to
    		help us out and yet I had to pay the town 6k a year
    		in real estate taxes... This motivated my wife and I to
    		move to Taxachusetts where alot of towns have water and
    		sewer, alot less real estate taxes, good schools and alot
    		closer to the 495/128/hub industry....Carl Cool

Has any person used the DEEPROCK well drilling product?? 

if so how was it for drilling thru different types of soil?? 

Did the product perform as expected?

Would their be a used unit for sale that some one might know about??

Any0ne ever done Dowsing for water??

THX
John Woodman    235-8482   VIDEO::WOODMAN

    I've been on one half of a dowsing stick and ripped the bark right off
    it trying to keep it from pointing toward the ground.  It was a demo by
    a former skeptic who became a believer and then a practitioner of water
    dowsing.
    
    This guy, who is in his 80's or 90's today if he is still around, was a
    neighbor and friend down in Sandy Spring, Maryland.  A friend of his
    was the president of the American Dowsing Association.  The pres's son
    was busy at the time running all over southeast Asia dowsing for water
    for the Marine Corps.
    
    My friend, Art, had built a new house in the country and drilled a well
    in the nearest convenient spot.  He didn't find water, even though he
    went down several hundred feet.  He then had the drillers try in some
    other spots, each one less convenient, but with no success.
    
    Meanwhile, a neighbor of his said, why don't you have so_and_so dowse
    for water.  Art got a good laugh out of it and drilled a few more dry
    wells.  To make a long story short, he finally got so frustrated he
    figured why not, and asked the dowser to find him some water.
    
    The dowser asked Art for his location preferences, one of which was the
    driveway.  The dowser walked down the drive about halfway, and Art saw
    his stick dip toward the ground.  The fellow walked back and forth
    several times, and up and down, and did this and that.  Then he called
    Art over and announced that he would find water if he drilled right
    there, that the water was from a moving underground stream, what
    direction the stream was flowing, that it was good drinking water, that
    it was between 60 and 65 feet down, and that it was under some pressure
    and would come at least part way up to the surface.
    
    I probably don't need to tell you Art's reaction.  Same as mine would
    have been.  So old Art says, "I'll pay your bill just as soon as the
    water comes up," and the dowser says, "Fine with me."
    
    It was 63 feet down, it was good to drink, and it came up to within 10
    feet of the surface under its own pressure.  No one could figure out
    how to tell what direction the underground stream was flowing, and Art
    really didn't care.
    
    Art and the dowser became good friends, and Art learned how to dowse
    and tried to teach me, but it just didn't work for me.  Art said that
    some folks were like that.  They also do plumb bob dowsing, which
    involves swinging a little weight on a string back and forth and
    talking to it.  Apparently it answers back sometimes.
    
    Art told me some folks can find water with a coat hanger, some folks
    can find oil, and there are lots of other stories.
    
    Try it yourself -- get a forked twig off a tree (should be live, apple 
    trees are best) shaped like an upside down Y, hold the lower ends of 
    the Y in your fists so that your thumbs are outward and the ends of
    the twig are being bent outward.  Your elbows point inward, the end of
    the twig where the ends you are holding should be pointing up at maybe
    45 degrees from the horizon.  You'll probably have to practice until
    you get it just right.  Any slight movement of your hands will dause
    the pointer end of the twig to move upward or downward.
    
    Then walk around your house or yard.  When you get over water the stig
    should exhibit some tendency to point downward.  Try to hold it so that
    it is right on the edge of pointing downward, then just keep enough
    pressure on it to keep it point upward until you cross some water.
    
    Who knows, it might work for you.

    My pump seems to be going through shorter but more frequent duty
    cycles. Shut-off pressure seems OK, ~45lbs.
    
    My gut reaction is that I've lost the charge in my captive air tank.
    Does that explanation make sense?
    
    Edd

    
      Yes, your diagnosis of losing the charge in your captive-air tank
    is probably correct. It's easy to recharge (which is what you should
    do before figuring something's broken).
    
    	To recharge a captive air tank: 
    
    		1. Shut-off the power to your pump.
    		2. Open an outside faucet until no more water flows
    			out. (the idea is to have NO water pressure
    			in the tank) Leave this faucet OPEN until done.
    		3. With a bicycle pump and tire gauge add air to the
    			fitting on top of the tank until the tank's
    			pressure is equal to the pump turn ON pressure. (this
    			will be the LOW side of your normal pressure
    			swing)
    		4. Close the faucet opened in #2
    		5. Turn the pump back on - it should now work great!
    
    				Kenny

    Thank you muchly!
    
    I'm assuming that the air charge helps to maintain a more constant
    pressure by compressing. Since water won't compress, *any* use will
    cause the pressure to drop, and since there's no expanding air to
    maintain pressure, voila, pump on.... yes?
    
    Edd

    Obviously been awhile since I had a chance to read this notes file...
    
    We have the same problem. The smell is caused be Hydrogen Sulfide.
    Considered harmless but anoying just the same. We use bottled water
    for drinking and cooking. It had almost gone away but just recently
    came back VERY strong. Our neighbors tell us that it happens every
    Spring.
    
    Our Iron test came out at 4.9 mg/liter (EPA Max .3). 
    Manganese was .13 mg/liter (EPA max .050)
    
    We installed a "green sand" filter from The Water Store in Westford
    MA. Total cost was ~$1000 installed. It is low maintenance. It has
    a timer which causes it to automatically backwash every 3 (selectable)
    days. The only maintenance is to add some Potassium Permanganate
    every 3 months (used during the backwash to flush out the iron
    sediment. It does not enter your water system. And they claim it
    does not harm the septic system).
    
    So far so good. We don't have the results of the after installation
    test yet but the toilets and other fixtures are no longer stained
    and our clothes no longer turn brown in the wash.
    
    				Mark
    

    
      Yes, you are completely correct as to what the air does for the
    pump system. Just remember, you can NOT accurately test the tank's
    air-charge pressure if there is ANY water pressure present.
    
    					Kenny

    Re: .4  (Jon Reckard)
    
    Please tell me something!  When I called and checked on the maximum
    acceptable level by the EPA, I was told 10,000 picocuries!  Where
    did you hear the number of 30,000?!    I'm very concerned about
    this, because my level is just over 20,000.  So I would pass if
    the maximum level was 30,000.  But they told me it was 10,000!
    
    I've just installed a carbon type filter to my water pump, which
    should do the trick.  Carbon is NOT the recommended solution to
    this problem, but I do not care to spend $3K on an areation system.
    Besides, I heard that with the areation system you need to have
    a fan running 24 hours a day to blow the radon outside.  Is this
    true?   Sounds like this would increase the electric bill a bit.
    
    Also, I bought this carbon type water filter at Sear's.  They told
    me they would come out to my house once a year and change the filter.
    So, they must know where to get rid of this possible radioactive
    waste, or maybe they haven't thought about these filters having
    radon build-up in them?   They could always put the waste in the
    same place they dump the stuff from the nuclear power plants.
    
    Well, my water will be re-tested again late this week.  As soon
    as I get the results I will post them here.
    
     - John
      

    RE: .13
    
       The basic measurement for radon in air is 4 pCi/l, there is
    really no measurement established for water as far as I can
    tell from EPA documentation.  The radon in the water is not
    harmful until it becomes airborne, thus the EPA states that
    for every 10,000 pCi/l of radon in water, that will contribute
    to approximately 1 pCi/l of radon in air.  So in your case,
    the water at 30,000 pCi/l could contribute 3 pCi/l in addition
    to what is all ready present from other sources.
    
       If your air reading was 6 pCi/l, then potentially 3 was
    added from the water?
    
                          Mark
    
                                             

    Re: .14  (Mark)
    
    No, my well water test came in at a little over 20,000 pci/l.
    My air level came in at around 2 pci/l.
    
    I called the lab that did the test, and they thought it was
    very unusual to have such low levels in the air, but high levels
    in the water.  They went on to say that it "Just doesn't sound
    right".  So, apparently nobody knows much about this stuff.
    
    I'm VERY curious as to why the other noter said the EPA told
    him the maximum level is 30,000 pci/l, and they told me it
    was 10,000 pci/l.  Does it matter which town you live in??
    
     - John
    

    
    
      RE:.15
     
               Low levels in the air, don't worry about it, you
    probably have good ventilation whether you know it or not,
    if you have 20,000 pCi/l in water that coverts to 2 pCi/l
    air according to EPA which is exactly what you have from
    your test.
    
       It doesn't matter where you live, the house next door to
    you could have 3,000 pCi/l in air while you have 2.  Its
    a matter of a lot of geology mainly.  What's your house
    sitting over, or where is your water drawn from in relation
    to radioactive materials in the ground, how well is your
    house or well ventilated is what really determines your levels.
    
       

A few quick searches didn't turn up an appropriate title to put this
question under so I gave it its own topic:

My well water comes in from the well in some sorta plastic pipe (pvc?)
where it comes into the house, throught the crawl space and up into my
utility room where the tanks&heaters are.  The plastic pipe from the
well seems to fit into a smaller plastic pipe for the pressure tank.
The pipes are held together by two hose clamps.  Over time, these clamps
loosen or the pipes shrink and the two pipes come apart with a loud
POP.  After this happens, water is happily sucked from the well and
deposited on my utility room floor where it drains into my crawlspace,
leaks into the house, garage, everything.  It all depends on how much
time goes by before the problem gets noticed and I kill the breaker.
Its happened to me twice in the last four months so I assume it WILL
happen again.

There MUST be a better way to connect the two lines. Or maybe rig some 
kind of alarm that goes off and trips the breaker if it senses water on 
the floor or the loss of connection between the pipes.

Any ideas ?

Thanks, 
- S -

    First thing I'd do is check the pressure switch to see when the
    well pump is set to cut in and cut out. I run mine around 30 lb.
    cut in and 50 lb. cut out. If your pressure switch is set to high
    or is malfunctioning on the cut out side, this may be popping your
    connection. I'd also replace the PVC connection fitting with a new
    one. The male section which fits into your well's pvc supply line
    may be too small or the friction ribs may be worn. When you reconnect
    the two PVC lines, make sure you lightly heat the ends of the pipes
    with a blow torch (be carefull you don't burn the pipe, you only
    want to heat it up enough to sofen the PVC) then install and tighten
    your band clamps. I'd recommend installing two clamps on each side
    to insure a good tight fit. Good Luck, and stay dry!

    I'm no expert on this by any means but a thought comes to mind right
    away.  What if you were to take a piece of strap metal (the kind
    with holes along the entire length of it) and mount it to a hose
    clamp screw on either side of the connection?  It seems as though
    this would prevent the water lines from being able to pull apart.
    I've made an attempt at drawing a diagram of what I'm talking about.
    I hope this helps.
    
                                       Garv
    
    
                   | |
                   | |
    hose clamp---->----|-|<-----hose clamp screw
                   ----|-|
    water lines--->| | |<-------strap metal
                   | | |
                   ____|_|
    hose clamp---->____|_|<-----hose clamp screw
                   | |
                   | |

    When we relocated our house we went with a shallow well and brought
    the water into our cellar...difference is that our pump is not in
    the well.  Within the first few days the plastic pressure tube burst
    and we had a couple inches of water and the pump melted!  I checked
    around and couldn't find any such sensor from major plumbing distrib
    in/around Worcester,MA...toyed with the idea of building one myself
    but that's on a back burner!  The one thing we did which you may
    consider is to use a "reducer" that would go from the larger PVC
    to the smaller.  This would be "ribbed" as mention already and you
    should lightly heat with a torch.  We used stainless steel straps
    on all our plumbing and I haven't had any trouble.  By the way,
    my father replaced the plastic pressure tube with copper...we sleep
    better now!
    
    Nick

> I checked around and couldn't find any such sensor from major plumbing
> distrib in/around Worcester,MA...toyed with the idea of building one myself

I believe Spag's has a water sensor alarm. It's a battery operated 
device, about the size of a smoke alarm that you place on the floor. 
When it gets wet, it sounds an alarm. 

Charly

    Here's a mini-report I've pulled together from the EPA's "Radon
    Reduction Methods" pamphlet.  I've also gathered material from an
    informational meeting our town hosted last week:  experts from various
    state (NH) branches of its Department of Environmental Services (DES)
    were invited to report on and answer questions about some very high
    radon-in-water test results (up to 2.3 million pCi/l!!) from various
    private wells in town - there were two "state geologists", two from
    Bureau of Water Supply and one from Radiological Health.  (Ours was
    "only" 497,000.)

    Just to define one term here, radon is measured in "pCi/l"s, or
    picocuries per liter.  One picocurie is one trillionth of the amount of
    radiation emitted from one gram of radium 226.  This is how the state
    geologist defined it.

    -----

    "The potential concern with radon in water is the airborne radon
    released when water is used.  The amount of radon that is given off
    from water depends on the amount in the water initially.  The amount
    given off will increase as the temperature of the water increases and
    as the surface area exposed to air increases.

    "In the home, activities and appliances that spray or agitate heated
    water (showers, dishwashers and clothes washers) create the largest
    release of waterborne radon.  However, the level of radon in household
    water must be very high to significantly influence the overall level in
    the air within a house.  As a rule of thumb, 10,000 pCi/l of radon in
    the incoming household water is equivalent to 1 pCi/l of radon in the
    indoor air.

    "In some areas, especially in the northeast and west, water from private
    wells or small community water systems can contain sufficient radon to
    contribute significantly to elevated levels within a house.  Water from
    large community water supplies releases most of its radon before it
    reaches individual houses.

    "Two techniques can be considered to remove radon from water.  The first
    requires either spraying water into a contained air space, introducing
    air bubbles into the water, or storing water in a tank until the radon
    has decayed.  The second uses granular activated carbon (GAC) to remove
    radon from the water.  The GAC method has been more widely tested and
    is more commonly used in individual homes.  Radiation buildup in the
    unit itself may cause exposure and disposal problems.

    "For more detailed information on radon in water see the recent EPA
    booklet, "Removal of Radon From Household Water (OPA-87-011)."

    (The preceding was quoted from the EPA booklet.  And, no, there's no
    copyright protection here, so "without permission" isn't necessary.)

    Now from our "town meeting":

    Measuring radon in water involves:  collecting water in a clean
    container (testing outfits usually provide sterile containers) getting
    the water sample to the testing outfit as quickly as possible (radon's
    half-life is 3.8 days), and waiting for the results.  Because radon in
    water decays so quickly, results should be available quickly.  NH DES
    charged $15; one private firm I talked to wants $35.

    There is no official recommended limit (yet) for radon in water.  The
    state of Maine has recommended 20,000 pCi/l.  One NH state guy
    mentioned that the EPA has been saying they'll come up with a
    _proposed_ limit for the past couple years.  The latest is that
    sometime this fall, 1989, EPA _will_ recommend something.  He's heard a
    wide range of proposed numbers, ranging from 20,000 to 5,000.  His
    hunch is that it'll be closer to the 5,000 number.

    No radon treatment outfits - from air or water - are certified or
    accredited by any governmental agencies.  One piece of regulation,
    however, of which I'm aware, is that no radon _testing_ outfit can sell
    you any radon _treatment_.  The EPA, or whoever, wants to divorce those
    two functions as completely as possible, what with conflict of interest
    and such.

    An activated carbon system, similar to the little guys you can put
    under your kitchen sink for drinking water, was _not_ recommended. 
    (Remember, I'm talking about radon only.)  It is less expensive.  The
    problem is that the carbon is an extremely efficient filter, and it
    traps and holds everything it filters out of your water.  The result? 
    Toxic waste.

    (One state geologist told of one guy whose filter got so radioactively
    "hot", it couldn't even be measured with the standard Geiger counter or
    whatever; add to this the fact that the government only deals with
    licensed radioactive waste places (so far), so they wouldn't touch it;
    the guy finally got a back-hoe, put a lead suit on (Spag's probably has
    them), threw it in the back-hoe's scoop, and buried it in his "back 40"
    - all probably illegal (there's still quite a bit of gray area here). 
    The state geologist's only advice was to change the filter OFTEN.)

    The other option is to "bubble" the radon out of your water and vent
    it to the outside.  This kind of system goes for $2495, $2995 and $3495
    (two vendors - and three systems - were there).  It's just a tank, with
    zillions of bubbles flying through your water (on demand), and a
    pressure tank which brings the pressure back up for household use.  One
    vendor I talked to said it's the opposite of the standard aquarium
    bubbler which puts some air into a lot of water; his system puts some
    water through a lot of air.  One tricky part of installing it is the
    vent.  Ideally it should go to or past the peak of the house -
    otherwise the radon could be sucked back in the house.  (I didn't ask
    about how often or how long the venting fan is on, but, for what it's
    worth, the whole tank is relatively air-tight, so it wouldn't take long
    to vent all the air in the tank.)

    A related issue in water is something called Screen Alpha.  With a
    high radon-in-water test result, it's recommended that you get a Screen
    Alpha test.  This measures all "alpha-emitting radiation" and is an
    indication of radioactive _particles_ in your water, not _gas_ as is
    radon.  If _this_ number is high enough, you should test for radium and
    uranium (yes, these are all separate tests).  For uranium, there is
    again no current recommended limit.  For radium, *in a public water
    supply*, the limit is 5 pCi/l.  These tests, because of different decay
    rates or half-lifes or something, take two weeks as a minimum. 
    (Particles, or solids, are potential problems if ingested, again,
    unlike radon gas.  Radium, for one, is a "bone-seeker"; this means if
    ingested, it settles in bone marrow, with a potential leukemia risk.

    As far as radium or uranium treatment is concerned, the good news is
    that a standard ion-exchange (salt) water softener catches radium.  The
    silly news is that uranium, if a problem, must be removed with a
    similar but "opposite" ion-exchange gizmo (something about anions and
    cations).  Minor good news is that radium and uranium are seldom found
    together.

    An interesting story was told about one house in Colorado which had a
    radon-in-air reading of 1,000 pCi/l and radon-in-water of 2.8 million. 
    The state moved the family out <no flames from the live-free-or-die-ers
    please>.  Interestingly, the thermostat! was turned down.  This,
    combined with nobody taking showers or washing clothes or dishes,
    brought the radon-in-air reading to 18 or 180 (sorry, I forget which).

    To the author of the base note (if you're still with me), I'll second
    what somebody said about your 2 pCi/l in air.  I wouldn't worry about
    it too much.  As you know, that's under EPA's recommended limit of 4. 
    If you're concerned about your 20,000 pCi/l, test for Screen Alpha. 
    Bottom line is the air, though.  Maybe take more air tests in your
    bedrooms (near bathrooms) and/or kitchen or wherever your clothes- and
    dish-washer is.

    I've been in my house a year, and every 2 months have had to change
    the iron filter, sodium filter I believe - brand CUNO, which ends up 
    costing $45 a month in replacemnt filters...it adds up !!  
    
    So, I had a water analysis done, with the thought that I'd get a
    new filter that didn't require as much maintenance, and not as
    costly on an ongoing basis...here are the results :
    
                	results		MCL (Maximum according to CUNO)
    	                -------		------
        PH	  	  6.78		
        TDS (???)	 61.80		   500  
    	TURBIDITY	   .32		    .5
    	TOTAL HARDNESS   40.00		150.00
    	IRON		  3.80		   .30
    	MANGANESE	   .26	           .05
     	COPPER		   .10		   .10
    	TANNIN		   .30		   .50 
    
    CUNO came back and recommended a "AQUA-PURE IRON REMOVAL SYSTEM"
    which has "filter media" to be replaced every 3 months to address
    the high manganese condition (I wonder how much this will cost).
    And the system would have to be "frequently" backwashed due to 
    the "HIGH" level of Tannin (doesn't seem high to me). The
    product retails for about $800. 
    
    Before I make any drastic decisions, I wanted to get your advice
    on this...in reading the notes, it's apparant that there are so
    many alternatives...and so many other considerations, such as
    PH, hardness and other properties.
                           
    Has anyone heard of CUNO ?  Any other recommendations ?  I've
    seen reference to AMWAY products, and wonder if I should 
    research what they've got ?  It sounds like I should also
    check into this "green sand" filter from Westford...how long
    have you had the system Mark ?
    
    Regarding the Hydrogen Sulfide odor...could this be the odor
    I periodically smell in the neighborhood that I've attributed
    to a neighbor's septic system...even though I know the septic
    tank is new and relatively empty ?  It also seems to be more
    prevalent in the spring...If this is so, is this odor coming
    from the ground or could the neighbor do something to limit
    the release of this odor into the neighborhood ?
    
    Thanks...
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I am not directly involved in the water well business, but my brother
    in law is and some time ago I asked him about Deeprock and their
    products.  My memory lists the following:
    
    1.	The unit will drill a hole as advertised.  The hole is small,
    an 1 1/2 or 2 inch hole is all that is drilled.  This compares with
    his 6 inch hole or 5 inch that some drillers use.
    
    2.	The small size requires special pumps, and piping that have
    some deliver size limits which affect pressure.
    
    3.	Most wells have a particular flow rate.  The average house needs
    at least 5 gallons per minute to cover peak usage.  Anything less
    means building up a reservoir which can be in the form of the well
    itself or in external storage tanks or cisterns.  The best is the
    well because the water stays naturally cool and fresh.  The DEEPROCK
    cannot provide for this storage.
    
    Personally I would not consider this for a house.  It could be used
    to water gardens or maybe take care of a small vacation cottage.

    
                         < No more Arsenic!!>
    
         I finally hooked up with Nova Water systems in Londonderry
    N.H. I worked with Bill Berg who is the manager. I decided to go
    with his system for a number of reasons.
    
         Time being of the essence, I needed one quickly and he had
    one in stock. Sears gave me the run around on which store had it
    and the sales people were useless. 
    
         The installation was included in the price and was put in by
    Nova people as opposed to other companies who subbed the work out.
    
         The system provides 15 gal of water per day (more than I need
    for drinking/cooking) and included a subsequent water test which
    was mailed to my home equity company. Bill put a clause in the
    contract (order) which stated the arsenic level would be brought
    below 5 ppm or additional equipment would be added to the system
    at Nova's cost until it was. Or my money could be refunded. It also
    has a point od use faucet in my bathroom and my kitchen.
    
         It cost $890 (ouch) but I feel you get what you pay for. If
    I continued to live there I want nothing but the best and when I
    leave I want to feel that I did the best I could do to remediate
    the problem for myself or anyone who would move in.
    
         The water test came back with NO DETECTABLE ARSENIC and was
    sent to the home equity company. They were happy, I was very happy
    and the offer came thru and I'm on my way. Thanx for everyone's
    help and suggestions.It made the difference!
    
    Regards,
    M.
    
    
    
    

Someone suggested I list a rundown of the companies we evaluated during 
our search to find a whole house water filter (which I thought was a good 
idea). 

First we had our water independently tested and again tested by some of 
the companies we consulted. 

Results of independent testing were:  Iron .29 mg; Manganese .045 mg;
PH 6.4; hardness 53.7

Company                  Recommendation                            Cost

LINDSAY            *     "Sense-A-Tronic Water Softener"           $1,615
Brenda Layne             and Iron Remover w/ auto timer          includes
(603) 382-4394           Said they're only co. with both         install.
1987 contact             softener and iron remover in 1
Had difficult time answering
any nonstandard questions
Didn't volunteer to get info.

NORTHEAST WATER    *     I mention this co in note 845.49
CONDITIONING             Chuck Noe was fine it was his boss
Chuck Noe                Ken Bruso who was problem. 
603-483-8531             First recommended "PWX All Pump Filter"  $850,
1987 & 88 contact        for iron, ph and turbidity also thought   list 1.2K
                         we needed "Series 1 Water Refiner" but    
                         could get by on Filter only.
                         Several mos later mailed special offer
                         on Series 1 Water Refiner which removes  $900,
                         iron & hardness. Now said (Ken) wouldn't  list 1.3K
                         guarantee iron problem would be solved
                         unless we bought both. Again dropped
                         price on Water Refiner to                $799
                                                                  -----
                                                                 $1649

SEARS ROEBUCK      *     Solution Dispenser                       $350
1986 contact             Blending tank                             140
Diff to find anyone      Auto clarifying tank                      310
interested &             Taste & odor tank filter optional         310
knowledgeable                                                    ------
                                                                 $1110

WATER STORE      *       Green Sand unit w/ computer backwash.    $671
Westford         |        Acid neutralizer                         350
Laura Feeney                                                      ----
508-692-8408     |                                                $1021
1986 contact     V
Connected with Thorstensen Lab. Thorstensen was lab who independently 
tested water (required at the time by the bank)

SAFE WATER       *     "Metro" Unit to balance ph, filter       $850
Ayer                    out iron & manganese. Greensand is
Montel Wilder           regenerated with potassium permanganate
508-772-7855
1988 contact

CUNO, Inc        *     "AquaPure" for iron, ph & manganese      $740
Meridan, CT             uses aspirator & bed type filter.
203-237-5541            in media of calcium carbonate &
Gave us # of            magnesium oxide
local distributor
for actual
purchase
1988 & 89 contact

CULLIGAN                "Sofner-gard" water conditioner removes  don't
Lowell                   iron & hardness                         have
617-454-8896                                                     price

* - also tested our water

All would install for approx. $200.  I do have descriptive info on how 
each unit works which I'd be glad to share should someone be interested.  
All our contacts made recommendations according to  our unique water tests. 
The particular AquaPure we purchased from CUNO was recommended because of 
our water conditions and flow rates. In the final analysis I guess we were 
most impressed with CUNO's knowledge, service and price so went with them. 
My husband picked it up and installed himself. Most of the above companies 
probably would have been been fine to purchase from.

Kathy

> Results of independent testing were:  Iron .29 mg; Manganese .045 mg;
> PH 6.4; hardness 53.7

> CUNO, Inc        *     "AquaPure" for iron, ph & manganese      $740
> Meridan, CT             uses aspirator & bed type filter.

First of all, iron isn't a problem right?  My info gives recommended maximums
of 0.3 for iron, 0.05 for manganese, and a rage of 6.5 to 8.5 for ph.

Secondly, my understanding was that iron and ph are completed unrelated.
And your water is being treated with one "machine" for *both* for only $740?
Can you verify that both "problems" have indeed been fixed?

    
    RE .58
    
    Our iron staining was terrible.  Several people told us you don't
    need much iron to get staining. Hadn't washed clothes at home for
    2 years!   
  
    Iron and pH is unrelated but is supposedly taken care of by this
    one system.  The system Safe Water recommended also took care of
    the 3 problems and was $850, not much higher than the CUNO. We 
    installed the CUNO unit a few months ago and have not yet retested the
    water. It has taken awhile for us to work out how often we backwash.  
    There is a dramatic improvement in the water clarity and taste. We do
    still occasionally get bursts of iron in various faucets but believe
    it's from the 30 years of iron crud built up in the pipes.  
    
    If you are interested in CUNO's "Aqua-Pure" process or unit I would send you
    a copy of the brochure if you like   Also they have an 800-243-6894
    number to get technical information. My husband was most impressed
    with their assistance and follow through.
    
    K

	I have a plumbing question.  My camp in Vermont has a brand new 
	pump & tank as of last year. We pump water from the lake (about 20-25
	feet away) for use in the camp (we use spring water for drinking, etc.).
	The system worked fine last year.  Prior to Winter I drained the system.
	This past weekend we tried to activate the system again and I can't
	get it to hold a prime.  It seems to have a lot of air in the pipes.
	We let the water run for a long time at the farthest point in the 
	system and it STILL has air blowing out the faucet.  The footvalve in
	the feeder from the lake is fine and so is the one in the pump itself.
	I can't figure out what's wrong.  Any suggestions ?

	Chuck

<	This past weekend we tried to activate the system again and I can't
<	get it to hold a prime.  It seems to have a lot of air in the pipes.
<	We let the water run for a long time at the farthest point in the 
<	system and it STILL has air blowing out the faucet.  The footvalve in
<	the feeder from the lake is fine and so is the one in the pump itself.
<	I can't figure out what's wrong.  Any suggestions ?

  I too have a shallow well near a lake.  My biggest problem was getting all the
air out of the supply pipe,  I'd fill and fill but I'd get an air bubble in the
line.  I could tell because when I'd blow into the 'full' pipe I could force the
water down compressing the bubble and when I stopped blowing I'd get all wet
because the bubble expanded again.  When I finally got all the air out of the
pipe, the water would not compress and I didn't get wet anymore.

  You might try disconnecting the supply pipe from the pump, fill it the pipe
with water from a bucket to see how long it takes for the water to drain out. 
Almost no water should be lost if the supply pipe/foot valve is intact.

   Are you getting air blowing from the spigot closest to the pump???  It might
be easier to seperate the problem into supply system (pump, supply pipe, foot
valve) and the distribution system (building plumbing).

   If it's the supply side then my first guess would be a cracked the pipe
between the footvalve and the pump.  Did you remove the footvalve from the
system for the winter and blow air out the lake end of the pipe to be sure it
was free of water?? If you had air leaking in at the pump, the footvalve should
still allow the pump to keep its prime.  Is this a piston pump or impeller pump?

Al

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
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may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I have read through all of the notes in this file regarding wells, but
    I've seen very little about artesian wells.
    
    I am currently trying to sell my house, a 200-year old Cape in Weare,
    NH.  We have interested buyers, but they want to inspect the well
    (which is artesian) since they noticed that the water pressure is kind
    of low.

    Even though the house sits on very wet land with a high water table,
    when we had the water pump fixed recently, the repair person commented
    that the water level in the well was very low-- according to him, there
    was only about 4 feet of water in the bottom of the well, which I guess
    is unusual.  We have noticed since moving in 3 years ago that if you
    leave the hose going too long (for hours, that is), the water pressure
    is eventually non-existent.  Usually, though, in showering, running the
    dishwasher, and doing laundry, there is no noticeable problem.

    Anyway, now I'm very nervous about the prospect of their doing an
    inspection.  I know the water quality is good, but I wonder about the
    long-term viability of the well.  
                                   
    Does anyone know if there is anything we can do to improve the
    productivity of the well, and/or if there is anything we can say about
    it to reassure the buyers?  Does it sound like a serious problem, or
    nothing to be overly concerned about?  As I said, it has never been a
    problem for us, but I'm worried that it could give the buyers cold
    feet.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Katie McCormick

    If I were a buyer, I would be hesitant, because of the potential
    cost of sinking a new well. If I were the seller, I would also be
    concerned, but I would take the positive approach and be up-front
    with the information; get it inspected with possible recommendations
    and the cost of each. Let the buyer know what the score is; nothing
    causes them to hesitate more than something "fishy", or some potential
    coverup.
    
    When I sold my house in Ma. a few years I had a well problem with
    a constant battle of adding chlorine twice a year to keep the
    odor down; I made this known to any potential buyer and the ultimate
    purchaser thanked me for my honesty and even paid $5K more than I was 
    asking.
    
    Bernie

    The cost of sinking a new well probably won't be more than 3-5K.
     If I were the buyer, I'd probably see this as one more point to
    negotiate on the purchase price.  I second the recommendation to
    have it inspected yourself--if, indeed there is a problem, you can
    take a proactive approach and offer to give them a "rebate" at closing
    to help defray some of the cost of a new well.
    
    Susan

    Like previous entries I also suggest being right up-front
    about the well.  And be sure to get in writing that the
    buyer has been told about it.  Otherwise it's possible that
    the buyer could come back and claim the property was
    mis-represented and sue.
    
    Our friends sold their house and were upfront with the buyer
    about a problem with a drain freezing in the winter.  But
    they didn't get it in writing that they'd told the buyer.
    The buyer came back and tried to sue them for a huge amount
    of money later.  (The buyer lost but our friends ended up having
    to pay a lawyer, so they lost too.)

    I couldn't find a note that specifically addresses this so I'll
    put it in to see what comments are generated.
    
    About two weeks ago, we in the Mass area had thunderstorms on a
    Monday afternoon. When I arrived home, my wife noticed that we ran
    out of water. I went to the basement and found the circuit breakers
    to the well pump tripped. I reset the breakers and the pump started
    to run. But we were bringing up very dirty water. As a note I've
    been in the house (first owner of the house) for five years and
    never had a problem with the well. We then ran the water for some
    time and it started to clear but still wasn't drinkable.
    
    The next day I called several Well contrcators as inquired as to
    what could of happended. They all told me the same thing. Apparently
    I had a lightning strike near the well and it, in thier words, "shook
    up" the ground. I believe that as the water suddenly  was yucky!
    The recommendation was just the run the pump and the water, once
    things settle down, should clear. Sure enough, four or five days
    later it did clear enough for us to drink. I've since had the water
    tested, and the water is ok but there is iron in the water but not
    over acceptable limits.
    
    But the story isn't over. After the water cleared we notice that
    the flow was spitting out of the faucet. In other words air was
    getting in the system. I called the well folks again and they said
    that the check valve near the pump (down about several hundred feet)
    could have been damaged or the pipe may be cracked, either one allowing
    water to leak out when the pump shuts off. When the pump comes on
    it pushes the air and the water into the house, hence the spitting
    flow.
    
    We are still getting good water flow but I've got to get the air
    leak taken care of. I'm have a well contractor come in to look at
    it. They will have to pull the pipes and pump out of the well and
    inspect them.
    
    Anyone run into this? Anyone heard of lightning affecting ground
    water like this?
    
    Comments invited.
    
    Ron

    Ron, I had a similar experience some years ago in NH. Yes, a near
    strike can travel to your well and upset the ground-water flow as
    well as your system.  After all, isn't your well a perfect ground
    rod??  We did some research with well contractors and got all the
    same answers.  Our system had a cracked pipe about 15' or so off
    the check valve after the hit, along with the sediment problem for
    a few days.
    
    Incidently, you may have to clean out the strainers in all your
    faucets and your washing machine if you don'y have a whole-house
    filter.  All that debris coming up is going to run through your
    system.
    
    Good luck.

    Ron,
    
        I saw something similiar once. A lightning bolt hit a house and
    traveled through the house to the entry water pipe. Upon leaving the
    house it dug the cleanest, neatest trench accross the front lawn!
    
        Only thing I can add to .1 is to also clean the toilet tanks of
    debris also. A sad story about clogged toilet bowls starts out with
    well sand getting into the toilet tanks. Gets a little expense,
    quickly. 
    
    Bill.

    Ron,
    
    I not only had several cases of the water being disturbed, but lost
    two in-ground pumps within 18 months. Both pumps were reduced to
    junk by lightning... the second case also made a hole in the pipe
    about 10 feet above the pump! Some wells are located in just the
    wrong place. Could be iron in the surrounding rock or just the way
    the energy travels. The third replacement pump we put in we dropped
    another twenty feet and to my knowledge there hasn't been any problem
    since.
    
    Peter

    Well! Well! Here's an update to anyone interested. I had to have
    the pump replaced. This was done yesterday. They (Bill Marden Well
    & Pump of Fitchburg) pulled out the pump (360 feet deep) but couldn't
    find any visable damage. But the new one works find.
    
    I was surprise that when he was pulling up the old pump (the pipe
    was in 20 foot sections) that there wasn't any safety line to the
    pump. If in the process of pulling the pump up, the pipe broke,
    I would have had to have a new well drilled. The new pump and 360
    of continuous pipe was installed. I like the idea of one long pipe
    section. No threads to strip or connections to leak!
    
    We have a whole house water filter and I'll be changing that a few
    times until the water clears.
    
    Hope this doesn't mean that my well is an easy target for lightning!
    
    Ron
    
    

    Ron,
    I had the same problem with my submerged pump a few years ago. I
    now have a surge box the is suppose to protect it from frying the
    pump in case of a close strike. I suppose it might happen again
    but I hope not. The bill only came to $100 because Metpay covered
    replacement cost of the pump and I had only changed to Metpay 1
    month before. (nice of them to pay the other $500)
    
    Jim

    
    After reading each and every reply within this note I'm still confused
    as to how to chlorinate a shallow well in order to reduce the
    coliform count. I have seen references stating that you need anywhere
    from a 5% clorox solution up to 10 gallons of straight bleach! Can
    anyone advise me on how to chlorinate my well?
    
    Some details:  The well is approximately 16 feet deep. It is made out
    	           of sections of 4' round cement pipes. I would guess
    		   that at any one time that the well has about 8' of water
    		   in it. I'm not sure what this works out to in volume,
    		   but I don't think it is much more than 500-700 gallons?
    		   I'm sure someone can accurately figure this out for me.
                   
    		   The top section of pipe stick out of the ground by about
    		   2'. There is a small chunk of cement missing from this
    		   top pipe where it meets the cement cover. I don't think
    	     	   any animal could have crawled in there, but who knows.
    		   I'm going to slide the cover off and take a look before
    		   I proceed further anyway.
    
    		   My septic system is about 200' away and in back of the
    		   house. My well is in the front yard.
    
    	I'd like to know the correct process to chlorinate the well and
    	how much bleach (or whatever) to use. Can anyone supply details
        on this?   Thanks.
    

    
      With 8' of water in a 4' wide pipe you have almost exactly 700
    gallons. There are two ways you can chlorinate the water; either
    a small amount on a continuous basis, or you can do what is called
    superchlorinte it. Superchlorinating will kill everything alive
    in the well AND will burn up any organic matter and most (if not
    all) compounds. I do not know how to tell you how much chlorine
    to use if you want to do it on a daily basis, but I can tell you
    how much to use to superchlorinate it. The idea is that you have
    to get the chlorine level up to between 5-10 PPM. (ordinary sanitizing
    strength is 1-1.5 PPM)
      Go to a pool supply store and get liquid chlorine shocker. This
    should have ~12% chlorine. You will need to add the liquid shocker
    at the rate of 1 gallon of shock per 10000 gallons of water to get
    the required chlorine level. This works out to 9 ounces for 700
    gallons. 
    
     I have done this myself, with that in mind I can give you the following
     notes of warning: It will take ~ 1-2 days for the chlorine to go
    away. During this time there may be quite a smell. If there are
    any minerals in your water esp. iron or manganese your water will
    turn browninsh for a couple of days. Also liquid chlorine shocker
    comes in at least 2 strengths that I know of. The better one (12%)
    is the one you need to use for this job. The main idea is to get
    the chlorine level up to 5-10 PPM (parts per million). This will
    kill (and fry) *anything* in your well.

    
    					Kenny

    
    
    	In my case, a couple of years ago I lost my pump to a lighning
    	strike, had the turbidity problems, and a very strong sulphur
    	smell to the water.  According to the well guy, the lightning
    	had affected the acidic soil/water.  I don't know about the
    	"why", but the problem did fade after a couple of days.
    

If the pressure switch is the type that cuts off power to the pump and it's
not defective, then the pump must be getting power some other way.  Either
there's a short circuit that bypasses the switch, or if the switch is in
the neutral side of the supply (i.e. miswired), there could be a short to
ground between the switched neutral feeding the pump and ground.

See if you can find out if the switch is in the neutral feed to the pump, and
check the voltage across the switch terminals.  It should be 110V when the
switch is open, and 0 volts when it is closed.

-Mike

    I doubt there is a leak in the line (water) coming from the
    well to the tank.  If there were, the system would not hold
    pressure with the pump off.  If I am not mistaken, the foot
    (check) valve that holds water from returning to the well is
    at the bottom of the well.  If that valve were defective or
    there were a leak anywhere, the system would loose pressure
    quickly.  The only thought I have at the moment is that the
    pump is not able to bring the system pressure up to the point
    where it is supposed to shut off.  I would try setting the
    cutout (high) pressure as low as possible.  The switch should
    indicate the range of the settings.  Watch the pressure on
    the tank and see if it ever gets to that point.  If not, then
    the pump is just not able to push water very well any more.
    If the pressure goes considerably above the minimum cutout
    setting, then it would sound like the new switch may be
    defective (not an impossibility).

        Peter Duke

    I agree strongly with .3; I have had these systems and problems
    for 25 years. Usually the new switch solves the problem, however
    if there is a small line which transfers the pressure to the switch
    it can get plugged with crap from the system, enough to keep the
    system running for no apparent reason. Remove this small line, clean
    it thoroughly and the point at which it joins the pressure-side
    of the system.
    
    Barring that, the standard pressure control has two screw adjustments;
    look at the instructions and back off the high pressure to check
    on .3, also be careful not to lower it below the low pressure setting.
    
    Keep Pluggin'

    I believe you have a leak outside the house, most likely at the
    wellhead. My reasoning is as follows. 
    
    I assume you have a check valve between the pump and holding tank
    if you have a submersible pump. This is usually located at the tank
    and would prevent pressure loss after the pump shuts off.
    
    Second, if there were no leak, you would build up enough pressure
    to activate the pressure relief valve and flood your basement if
    the pump ran continuously. Submersible pumps can generate well over
    100PSI resulting a dangerous situation if an over pressure relief
    is not provided. 
    
    I'd start by digging down the side of the wellhead to the point
    where the pipe exits the casing (about 4 feet) and see if that's
    where the leak is.
    
    /Rich
    

    We had a leak outside of our house.  We didn't notice the continual
    running of the pump -- the pump's in the well, and I only hear the
    pump turn on if the house is quiet.
    
    We did notice the wet lawn!  So wet that we sunk in the muddy lawn to
    our ankles.  We dug down to the pipe in that area and sure 'nuf, the
    pipe was leaking.
    
    We'd had a cement truck go over that section of our lawn for a delivery
    that week.  I think that's why the pipe broke.
    
    So, before you dig up the entire length of the pipe, you may want to
    examine the ground covering the pipe for excess moisture.
    
    - course this week this excess moisture EVERYWHERE!
    
    -Nancy                                            

    Is this a jet pump or a submersible pump?

    The earlier posting about the pressure line being plugged up is
    probably correct.  We have incredibly hard water in this part of the
    country (n/w Ohio) and I just got done replacing one of these boogers.
    It was plugged solid with iron and lime deposits. 

    This line is usually flexible copper, and will run directly into your
    shutoff switch (the thing the plumber replaced).  I cleaned one once by
    getting a piece of coathanger and ramming it down thru the line.  (Of
    course, I had to take the line completely off; if your line is in bad
    shape, you'll probably poke a hole thru it doing this).  In any event,
    make sure you bleed off the pressure first, or you'll get a shower! 

    Also, if you have a jet pump, you'll probably not want to tackle this
    yourself ... if you're not careful, the pump can lose its prime, and
    repriming is a hassle. 

-b

    A friend of mine had a pump that never shut off, constantly running.
    it turn out to be air in the line.  They bleed the lines and its
    run great since.
    
    Fra

    Does your well go to an air blatter tank before going on to perform
    important domestic functions for you and the family? 
    
      If the answer is yes rap the sucker with a large wrench lightly. does
    it sound very tinny (it should ) ? 
    
      at what level is the "sweat" (i.e. condensation ) on the outside.
    IS it only 1/10 to the tank height.
    
    The reason I say this is that the blatter tank should be 80% air. Mine
    has a way of filling with water every 6 months. When this happens,
    the preasure switch is knocked for a loop, as it expects to be
    compressing air and not a fluid. Because of this, the pump runs almost
    all the time. On my unit, the inlet pipe has a tire-type air chuck just
    before the preasure switch. When it has too much water, I shut down the
    power to the pump, open the spickots the bath tub, and then I attach a
    small air pump to the air chuck and fill it full of water. I only use
    the cold water as I do not wish to drain the water heater. I then keep 
    it going until the bath tub runs out of water and tries blowing out
    air.
       I just shut the bathtub facuet, unhook the air pump, and switch the
    pump back on. the first time this happened, I called the pump company.
    They had a very nice heavy duty air pump that they charged me $50 to
    pump my system with air. I went out and got a portable auto air pump
    and spliced in 50 feet of zip cord. When I need to put in some air,
    I just drive up to a window near my air blatter and hook the power to
    my cigrette ligther. Not as fast, but the pump only costs 15 bucks and
    it is handy for the beach or inflating tires, balls etc.
    
      Hope this helps
    
       john
    

I'd have to agree with the suggestion that it is the small pipe connecting 
the pressure switch to the main water pipe being clogged. I had the same
problem once, with the pump not shutting off......

		-- Stan

	eerr.. pretty sure its air _____bladder_____ not _blatter_ !!!!!!!!!

      If you have this problem on a continuing basis you may want to buy
      a chlorinator. This is a small pump shich you wire to come on with
      your well pump.  It pumps a chlorene solution either into the well
      (probably the best solution for you) or into your water system. In
      the latter case you may have to add a "holding" or "blending" tank
      to your system so the chlorene has time to act.  
      
      Unfortunatley,  this  is  an  on-going  chore.  You must check the
      cholorene level in your water at least once or twice  a  week  and
      adjust  the  pump  ot  the strength of the solution to maitain the
      proper level of chlorene. Periodically you'll also have to re-fill
      the chlorene solution.  
      
      We  have  this type of system on a deep well and have a "blending"
      tank in additon to our pressure tank.  In additon to chlorene,  we
      add a neutralizing chemical to adjust the PH or our water.  I test
      the water about once a week and adjust as necessary.  About  every
      3-4  weeks I mix up about 7 gallons of solution from water, liquid
      chlorene bleach and the neutralizer chemical.  Its a  little  more
      bother  than  adding  salt to the water softener, but not all that
      bad. 

        Is the mystery solved?  What is happening?  Do you have
    only where you want it or most everywhere you don't want it?


    Peter Duke

      I'm not able to guess what your problem is.  However, I offer this
      advice:  Rather than a "plumber" get someone from a companyu  that
      installs  wells  and  pumps  to  come  look  at it.  Although some
      plumbers are knowledgeable about wells and pumps, a  company  that
      specialized in that business is possibly a better bet.      

re: ,< Note 3357.5 by VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT "T.B.S." 
    
>                                 ... then had the pump installed at
>    480 feet with scedule 80 pvc pipe ...

      If  my  memory  is  correct, schedule 80 is RIDGID pipe.  If thats
      right and PVC is glued (O.K. "solvent welded") together -- OUCH --
      you  will  have  one *BIG* headache when you need to pull the pump
      someday!  Our pump is also way down there, but on  flexible  pipe,
      which makes getting it out much easier.

    	Re:4
    
    	If the pipe broke you'd still have the electrical connections
    which in my case I believe are (3) 8 gauge solid copper wires.
    
    	Ray

      The PVC is not glued. It has union connectors that have a special 
    "goop" that lub's and seals the threads. It can come apart. The
    well company did not want to come back on a call because of somthing
    that just made specs.  So I now have the sced. 80 pipe and 10awg wire.
    
     I do have flex pipe from the well to the house.One for wire and one 
    for water.
    
    			Wayne

    re:8
    
    	Although the formula you stated would probably work well for 
    a pebble free falling without making contact with anything, I don't 
    believe it would be as useful in this situation. You are dropping
    a pebble into a 6" - 9" pipe with wires and PVC in it. The pebble will 
    most likely hit wires and/or, pipes on the way down causing it to stop/
    slow down and reaccellerate. Since there is no way of telling for sure 
    how many times it will hit something, the best you can do is guess and 
    approximate using this method. (I never said it was accurate :-).
    
    	I used this method when I had problems with my well. I knew
    my pump was down 400' and I did multiple tests using the 25 ft/sec.
    as a guide and it appeared to be fairly accurate. When my pump was
    sucking air I timed 16 seconds (+ or - 1 second) before I heard the 
    splash. My neighbor (who told me about this) also used the same method 
    on his well (when he had problems) with some degree of success. Maybe
    it was coincidence or just dumb luck, but it worked, twice.

    	Ray

    BTW - I don't recall enough of my physics to start quoting formulas.
    I do however assume you are a typical DEC engineer as I believe the 
    formula you gave was the one used if your working in a vacuum (insert big
    smiley face here ;-)
    

re: << Note 3357.7 by VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT "T.B.S." >>>

>      The PVC is not glued. It has union connectors that have a special 
>    "goop" that lub's and seals the threads. It can come apart. 

      Well,  thats a little better than being glued, but not much.  When
      you have to pull the pump you will find out how much FUN it is  to
      take all the pipe apart and the re-assemble it. (Naturally it will
      be a cold night with either snow or freezing rain!)
      
      (Note that I said "WHEN" not "IF".  No pump lasts forever!)
      
      Seriously,  well  companies  have  a  winch  truck that can pull a
      flexible pipe in minutes.  (It winds  the  pipe  around  a  large,
      6-foot  or  so  diameter drum.)  Disassembling the rigid pipe will
      take hours.  Also, there is no reason to think that the rigid pipe
      is any better or that it will last longer than good flexible pipe.
      In fact I wonder if the rigid pipe might even be more  susceptible
      to cracks from vibration?

     
     I do not know how strong ridge pipeis to flex pipe. The pump (3/4
    horse) is made from brass and stainless steel and is VERY heavy.I
    would think that the flex would strech and break over time before
    the ridge pipe would. Just a guess on my part there. 
    
     There are also many torque stops on the pipe.I am not worried about 
    twisting. I watched them put in the pipe,I don't think it will
    take them longer that 1.5 to 2 hours to remove the pump.
    
    
    			Wayne

Okay I read all the notes and i still have a mystery. Its a long story so lets
try the short version first.

After mucky around with my pump and holding tank (the long story) here's the
situation.

My pump cycles on at 30psi. Watching the gauge, The pressure climbs to 40, 
quickly goes to 50 then JUMPS to 60 and the pump shuts off. Immediately the
pressure drops to 38-40. If I stop drawing water it stays there.
The high holding tank pressure is 38psi and the low is 20psi. 

Can someone explain this behavior? What I want is  50psi! (at least).
Part of the mystery is that if I shut off the water into the house (after
the holding tank) while the pump is running , when it stops the pressure guage
remains at 50psi!!

At least after my mucking I got it to work this well; It was cycling on/off!
Thanks for your help!   steve

    It *sounds* like your holding tank is waterlogged (insufficient air).
    On a humid day, the condensation on the outside of the holding tank
    should be an indication of how the water is. My experience (and one
    of the "homeowner's user's manual" type books) suggests that the water
    level shouldn't be more than about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way up the tank
    when it's pressurized (i.e. when the pump shuts off).

Thats what i can fast response.. but
Ishould have said in my first note.

My holding tank has about 1/4 water. When I was mucking someone told me it
should be 1/2 put I couldn't/didn't get it above 1/4.
But maybe something is wrong with the membrane? 
Mor info:   If I turn off the pump I do get a substantial amount of water/pressure
from the tank.
Thanks for the reply,   steve   -what a mystery!

    
      Maybe you have TOO much precharge air pressure in your tank. With
    the system completly drained and NO pressure showing on the guage,
    your tank should have an air pressure *equal* to the pump turn 'on'
    pressure.  For example, if your pump turns on at 20psi - then you
    should have an air charge of 20psi in your tank "WHEN THERE'S NO
    WATER IN IT!!"  Try that.
    
    					Kenny

    When the membrane in our overflow tank went, the mostnoticeable
    'charactersitic' was that the water leaked all over the basement
    floor since the overflow tank wasn't able to hold as much pressure,
    the overflow valve in the hot water heater opened up.
    Probably unrelated, but the cause was the water company installed
    a new pumping station down the street from our house, and increased
    our incoming water pressure by so much that it blew the bladder
    in the overflow tank.  Anyway, based on what we saw when the membrane
    was gone, unless you're leaking, I would guess that you're overflow
    tank is probably okay.  ... I think ... (-:

    	FWIW - I was told that the plastic pipe is good to a maximum
    of 600' and if you have to go down any further you must have rigid
    pipe (per Water Center in Bedford which I WOULDN'T recommend BTW)
    
    	Also, the winch truck mentioned previously does make fairly
    quick work of pulling the flexible pipe.

    	Ray

Thanks to re .1 & re .2.  Between the two of these I thought what I need is
to add more air to make it equal to my pumb "turn-on" setting.

So I did that. First I make the low pressure in the tank reading 29psi; 30 psi
was my pump turn-on pressure. This gave me the following results: When the
pump kicked off the gauge dropped down to 50 psi (up 10) --- just what I wanted!

Next I raised the pump turn-on presure to 40psi; 30 was too low when taking 
a shower. I wonder if I should add more air?
When I was scanning this notesfile I saw that the low setting in the tank
should be equal to the outside pressure. This sure contradicts my results!!

Thanks again for you help.  Steve

       I have a problem and would like to know if anyone can shed some light.

        This may/may not be appropriate for this notes file, if not, can any-
one suggest a better place to ask?

        We bought a new construction home last decemeber from a contractor.
The problem is that we have well water, but our well is now dry.  Has
anyone else been through this and can shed some advise.

        I realize I'll have to speak with an attorney about this, but
may there be an "implied waranty for fitness of use?"  We've only been
in the home for none months and certainly don't need this type of problem.

        This is NH.

 - Bob
[crossposted in CONSUMER , HOME_WORK and REAL_ESTATE]

    
    
    	We just bought a newly built house. My house is guaranteed for a
    	year ( I believe that's the law even in New Hampshire ) and as with 
    	most every newly built house certain things will go wrong. I've had
    	our developer and his contractors back at least a dozen times to
    	fix things. I would assume that since the house is not livable
    	without water, by law, the developer must remedy the situation out
    	of his pocket.
    
    							Mike
    							----

  Another well-water-pressure problem... I've read all the notes 
in here about artesian well stuff and now I'm stumped... A little
background on this problem...

Our well usually have about 20-40 PSI pressure..now we can't get 
about 20. The pressure is there about 2 minutes then drops down 
to about 5-8 PSI. The tank is empty with only air in there. I've 
tried letting all the pressure out and hand-pumping the pressure 
up to 28 PSI. After running the water it drops down to 5-8 
again... I've tried to adjust the 2 springs that shut the pump off
but nothing changes... The pump seems to stay on all the time to 
maintain the pressure at 18 PSI... thats the highest it will go...
BTW, the pressure has gone down over the last 2 weeks but we thought
it was because of the shortage of water but now we wonder...

I'm looking for any ideas or some one I can call for help!!!

                           Rick

PS, I live in Lunenburg, Mass...

That law also applies in Mass.

	RE: .1

	Yes, I believe as well that the builder is liable.  Of course, he
doesn't and refuses to spend a dime to remedy the situation.

	Here's we things get bad, since the builder seems stead fast against
fixing the problem he leaves me no alternative.

	First I must fix the problem myself and then seek leagal recourse
to recover.  The real kicker is that even if I prevail in the lawsuit, I'm
still responsible for my own attorney's fees which can easily be 2-3K or more!!

	There is no justice!

    You may be able to recover the legal fees.......depending on what
    NH law allows.  
    
    A friend of mine who bought a new house in Acton,MA. had problems
    with water leakage in his basment.  The builder ample drainage
    under the foundation.  The lawyer told my friend that the first
    step was for him (the lawyer) to send a Chapter ##?? Demand Letter
    to the builder via registered mail.  If the builder failed to respond
    and comply, the lawyer claimed that the laws allowed the
    consumer/homeowner to seek double of triple damages.
    
    The end result was that builder, who refused to return my friends
    calls, called the lawyer in response the demand letter, within 2
    days to offer a settlement.  The builder payed the full cost for
    B-Dry Syetms to waterproof the basement.  Lawyers fee was $200-300
    for consultation, letter, and settlement negotiation.
    
    I believe, had they gone to court, the lawyer was willing to take
    the case on a contingency basis, since he felt it was a "sure WIN".
    
    Good luck,
    Jonathan

	In mass the statue that allows for "trebble damages" and attorney's
fees is call 93A.

	In NH, there is a law on the books to allow double and tripple damages,
but the law is intedned to be used in "cases involving fraudulent and deceptive"
business practices, and during preliminary discussions with an attorney, he
felt that I didn't have a good case for that.

	He does feel that I have a good case by way of implied warranty
for habitability (non-performance of contact), but he didn't indicate that
I could collect anything other than material damages and also seemed to
indicate that I was responsible for my own attorney'd fess.

    You may have had a check valve go bad on you.  Hopefully, it's
    not at the bottom of your well.
    
    Good luck.

    I had a similar problem on a dug well system.  It turned out to
    be a crack in the line that allowed air to get into the system.
     The pump would run, until shut off manually.  If allowed to sit,
    ALL of the water would drain back into the well, thus giving the
    symptoms of a bad check valve.  

    I sued my builder for basement water leakage in Mass about two
    years ago.  Statute 93A only allows double/triple damages IF
    the actions by the builder were clearly fraudulent.  Claiming
    the problem is not his responsibility, or accepting responsibility
    but never doing anything can NOT be consider fraudulent (at least
    according to the judge's opinion in my case).  He did agree to
    attorney's fees, though.

Well I looked through the keyword directory, and couldn't find anything
close, so please accept my apologies if this is a repeat question.

I have a drilled well with a submersible pump at a vacation house. The
plumbing is seasonal (this is the first season), and the plan is to drain
the well line from the house back to the pitless by blowing compressed
air at it from the house end. The point is that the well line couldn't
be kept below the frost line, because of ledge.

To accomplish this, the pitless adapter, accessible only inside the
well casing at this time, needs to be unhooked, briefly, so that the
water can be blown back. Otherwise, we'd be fighting the pump, which
wouldn't work (Even though the power will be off, we can't blow water
backwards through the pump).

The pitless is about 4' down below the cap, so obviously, its not a matter
of reaching in and unhooking it. I believe (?) that the way its set up,
what must be done is to pull the inside fitting up, and it pops out of
a gravity-dependant fitting of some kind. As I remember from watching the
guy install the thing, it looks something like:

               |                                     |
               |                                     |
 (well casing) |                                     |
               |                                     |
               |                                     |
               |                                     |
               |                                     |
               |          Threaded fitting |     |   |
               |                           |     |   |
               |                           +==========
               |                           |  w  w  w  w  ->
               |                           |  w  +====
               |                           |  w  |   |
               |                           +| w |+   |
               |                            | w |    |
               |                            | w |    |
               |                            | w |    |
               |                            | w |    |
               |                            | w |    |
               |                            | w |    |

The "w"'s are where water goes. Where it says "Threaded Fitting", I think
this is a pipe fitting where you can screw in a piece of pipe, and pull
up to unhook the pitless from some kind of receptacle mounted to the well
casing. (Or, I could be totally wrong, also).

What I think I need to know is, what size pipe, and what kind of thread
do I need, in order to screw into the pitless thingie so as to open it
up in order to facilitate letting the water flow from the well line back
down into the well?

Does this make any sense at all? Does anyone know what size pipe/tool I
need to make? Is there maybe some standard well-yanker-outer tool I can
buy at a ??? store to make this all easier?

Erik (Who knows very little about this, as may be apparent)

    Have you tried contacting the installer of the pump?  He can probably
    give the thread size and possibly clues to where to buy the "puller
    outer tool".  
    
    The size of the pipe you are using to drain your water system depends
    on how long you are willing to wait to let the water drain and how
    much water you have to drain.  The more water to move, and the less
    time you want to wait, the bigger the pipe you need.  The less water
    and/or the longer you are willing to wait for it to drain, the smaller
    the pipe you need.  The size of the opening in your well line is
    the restricting factor.  A bigger pipe than the opening will not
    speed the flow or lessen the time.  A small pipe will slow the flow
    and increase the time.

re .1

	I don't want to use a pipe to drain anything - the only purpose of
the pipe I mentioned would be to get ahold of the fitting to pull it up
out of the way. Then, the water would run directly into the well casing, and
fall by gravity down to the bottom of the well.

Erik

    Hi,
         If my memory serves me, 3/4" pipe thread is the size thread
    that is in the Pitless. All you have to do, is make a "T" handle
    that will reach down to the Pitless, thread the "T" handle into
    the Pitless pull up...not usually as easy as it sounds...and hang
    on tight, so as not to lose the whole thig into the well casing
    up to the "T" handle.
    
       To reinstall, just reverse the procedure.
    
    Good luck

    mmmmmm
    Removing a pitless adapter may not be a simple task. Depending
    on how much 1" pipe filled with water with a big anchor "pump"
    with torque supressors you may need some HEAVY duty lifting
    equipment to remove hold and replace the adapter into the seat.
    ie a truck with a boom pulled my pump & 500ft of pipe to repair
    a leak.
    
    You should look at have a valve installed in the line near the well
    that will let you shut off the water and drain it back into a pit.
    Relatives had this set up at a vacation home in HN. They simply
    took out a key (similar to water company key for a shut off valve)
    inserted it into a setup like you would have at the street for water.
    and gave a couple of turns. All the pipes were set up for gravity
    feed back towards the well so open all the valves in the house and
    the water took care of itself. BTW They did not have a check valve at
    the tank in the house, if you have one you need to by-pass it.
    
    Don
                                                   

re .4

	Good point, but it turns out that my well is only 130' and between
plastic pipe and a not-that-heavy pump, the lifting is no big deal.

re .3, general

	I got my problem solved, but thought I'd throw in the details in
case anyone ever runs into the same problem.

	Its a 1" pipe thread (not 3/4"). The T-Handle described by .3 is
definately the way to go. To make one, get a 6' section of 1" pipe, and
a 1" T-joint fitting. Cut two 6" sections off the pipe. You now have a 5'
section, and two 6" sections. Thread all ends of everything, and screw them
together. You now have a 5' long T-handle tool with a 1' T on the top. When
(not if) you drop it, the T-handle saves the day.

Thanks for the info!

Erik

    This seems like an appropriate note...
    
    My pump started leaking Friday night (when else?). At 8:45 this morning
    I left it with Fairbanks Engineering on Pullman St. in Worcester.
    
    Two hours later they called me to tell me it was finished. A bad motor
    bearing had caused the shaft to (a) wear out and (b) ruin the seal
    that keeps water from leaking.
    
    The bill came to $199.96. ("Keep the change...") While I could have
    bought a brand new unit from Somerville or some such, I can't help
    but wonder what would happen if I needed support sometime down the
    road. This is a 20 year old unit. I can't recommend Fairbanks enough.
    
    Edd

    My background is that I married into a family of water well
    contractors and have lived with well water for 12 years and the
    following is based on the above.  First, if a well is not producing
    enough water it can be from changes underground where the water veins
    have dried or gotten clogged.  Either way, you can solve the problem in
    three ways.  The first is to add bulk storage and put the pump on a
    timer that will assure that the tank is filled during low usage times. 
    For the situation here, this might be a good solution since the problem
    is not serious.  Even a well that can only produce 2 gallons a minute
    can use this method to provide enough water.  
    
    The second way is to drill the original well deeper.  A Rotary drill
    can drop a well very quickly, but will tend to seal up smaller water
    veins.  A compress drill (old fashioned) drills slower and tends to
    open up the water veins.  This requires that the well casings and other
    aspects be in good shape.  Anything over 5 gallons a minute is good.
    
    On the question of the type of pipe to use.  I had flexible plastic
    down about 90 feet and in time the flexing of the submergible pump
    caused the pipe to crack.  The flexing can also cause the electric
    wires to deteriorate.  The current recommendation for a first class
    installation is the use of pipe with threaded joints.  The expectation
    is that this installation will outlast the pump.  With proper tools, 
    the pump can be raised without too much problem.  Plastic is cheap and
    the cost of fixing is cheaper, but I prefer the threaded pipe because
    you can forget it.  
    
    The last option and most expensive is to drill a new well.

    
     .13 forgot one more way. Its called hydrofracking. I had my well done
    and it worked!!!!!!!! It works by running compressed air into the well
    at various points. The pressure in the well can run up to 2,000 psi.
    This is supposed to open clogged cracks and possiblly make them larger.
    
     My well is 700 feet deep and was making about .5 gallons per hour.The
    static level was over 400 feet deep. After fracking the well I was
    making over 6 gallons an hour and my static level was 20 feet down.
    
     Expect to pay 1200 to 2500 bucks...
    
    
    		Wayne

    I have a similar story to tell.  I was trying to trace the source of
    what seemed to be an unusually high (compared to the neighbors)
    electric bill.  I found that the pump almost never turned off.  I
    called a well pump company and they came out and replaced what was a 13
    year old pump.  They put in a heftier one - from 1/3 to 1/2 horsepower
    for a pump that sits at 130 feet below the surface.  The result was
    that I am now saving about 8.5 kwh per day.  I also had them raise the
    water pressure so that the pump shuts off at 60 pounds instead of 40
    pounds.  It's wonderful now that you can shower and someone else can
    also use the water.  
    
    The cost was $621. including installation of the pump and starter. 
    They didn't have to replace anything else.  The company was Need Pump
    in Sterling, Ma.  I would recommend them - they were fast and checked
    everything out before they left and put some chlorine down the well. 
    They even checked the flow rate to be sure there was not a problem with
    that.  
    
    What was interesting was how the vertical pipe in the well is connected 
    to the horizontal pipe that goes to the house.  That connection is done
    about 6 feet below the surface.  The vertical pipe is simply pulled up
    from a shoulder like connection that is maintained by the weight of the
    pipe and pump.  
    
    Peter

Hi all...


	Well Well Well where is the water?
	
	Our first week of home ownership we found we had a problem with
	the well...
     
        As it turns out the problem with our well is that it is out
        of water.  The previous owner admits that there were some problems 
        with the well and he claims to have had it hydrofractured 2
        weeks before closing, but did not bother to tell us about it.

        Now we are out of water often he has offered to deepen the well
        100 feet he claims this will give us 150 gallons more which he
        says is half the needs of 2 people.

	My question is does what he say make sense?

	Shouldn't he deepen the well already at 425 feet till we get more
	water?

	What recourse do we have?

	What is a sufficient depth?

	How much water is considered normal usage?

	Our lawyer said talk to him about it and if he had prior knowledge
	(which he did) he is responsible for fixing the problem. This would
	mean we need to drill till we get water which might not happen, and 
	then sue him. An alternative I'd rather not persue.

I would like to hear any advice you have to offer. 
Thanks, 
Muhammad

Note 3470 deals with a dry well in a new house, this deals with a barely
adequate well in an existing house. The legal ramifications are different
enough to warrant a separate note. 

Paul

    	I have well water and a pressure tank and the water is now starting
    to drip from a fitting near the pressure tank.  The fitting looks like
    a pressure relief valve, but a variation that I have never seen.  The
    dripping started about a week ago and I was able to eliminate the drip 
    by turning in the end of the valve, but I guess that the bandaide was
    only temporary.  This afternoon I was going to replace the valve with
    a spicket, only because I have one and it has the same diameter stem.
    	Before I totally mess things up, can anybody suggest any other
    solution, any local (Worcester area) supplier of valves, purpose of 
    "pressure" valve (and if it is a pressure valve).
               pump                                 If you can follow my
                  ||                           diagram, the location of my
         pressure ||                         dripping "pressure" valve is
          tank = =||                           noted.
                  ||====== house water system
       "pressure" XX
         valve    XX
    
    
    
     Thanks for all replies.
    
    Al
    

    DO NOT ELIMINATE THE PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE! It's purpose is to release
    excess pressure in the event the pump fails to shut off. Without
    a pressure relief valve this could result in an explosion capable
    of inflicting major damage to the house and loss of life to anyone
    in the vicinity. 
    
    Before replacing the valve, I'd check to see that the tank pressure
    is within normal operating range. The pump should shut off no higher
    than 60 PSI. If the pressure is okay, get a replacement pressure
    relief valve. I think mine is rated for 70 PSI which is the maximum
    working pressure for most tanks. Sommerville lumber carries the
    valve you need.

    	Thanks for the response.  I replaced the washer in the valve and
    will check for further leaks tonight.  The washer did have ridges in
    the seat area which I hope was the cause of the leak.  What I do not
    understand is if the valve had never operated why a washer / valve seat
    would leak.  
    

I've got the same symptom, but I don't think it's the same problem.

I have a Sears "best" captive-air, dual-feed jet pump system.  It was 
cycling every minute or so, even though no one's using any water.

To check, I turned off the main feed to the house.  Pump goes on at 25 
pounds.  Pump goes off at 50 pounds.  Then pressure slowly drops, but no 
water is going to the house.

So, I open up the impeller housing and look around.  Nothing is obviously 
wrong.  I put it all back together, and now it takes three or four minutes 
to cycle.

The only thing I can think of is that there's a leak of some sort back into 
the well.  Does this sound reasonable to anyone out there?  Any advice on 
what to look for?

Ray
(I also need to charge the tank, but I have to get my bicycle pump fixed 
before I can do that.  It never ends...)

Well, now that the tank is properly charged, it takes an hour to cycle.  
Anyone know how a jet pump works?

Ray

>Well, now that the tank is properly charged, it takes an hour to cycle.  
>Anyone know how a jet pump works?


	You have an air leak somewhere in the system.  Try dropping the 
	charge to 45 PSI.  
	
	Chuck

Our well and holding/expansion tank system has worked adequately since we
bought our house a little over a year ago.  But for the past month, for some
reason lots of air has been coming out of the faucets/toilets when the
water runs.  Enough water still, but lots of air coming through in the pipes
along with the water.

What is the cause, and how can this be fixed?

Thanks

Steve

    
    
    	Our well is outside, on top of the well, at the bottom of a hill.
    	after burning out a motor, the well guy suggested an "absorber"
    	on top of the well, to absorb the shock from the water column
    	and the cycling of the pump as the pressure switch went on and
    off-trying to absorb the shock itself.  No problems it three years.
    

Have you got an air release valve in your system?  I have a holding/
expansion tank that has no built-in air check valve -- I have a separate
tank with an air check valve.  It got fouled with iron sediment and
quit working.  In my case, not working meant that water continuously
pouring out the air release, rather than air not coming out the air release, 
but perhaps a different design could fail in a less catastrophic fashion.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

re. 2259.12

Air coming out of the faucets/toilets is due to a leak on the inlet side of
your pump.  Check for leaks:

   * Fittings on the inlet side of the pump may have work themselves 
     loose. (I had this problem with some plastic pipe fittings that worked
     loose due to vibration of the pump.)

   * The well casing may have a leak. (I'm not sure how to check for this one
     except to extract the casing from the ground and redo all the fittings.)

   * Depending on the type of well, the filter screen used at the bottom inlet
     of the well may have become clogged. (I had a driven point well that
     failed prematurely due to a clogged filter screen on the point.  The
     screen was damaged during installation.)  If the filter screen is clogged
     it causes the pump to draw harder which can cause air leaks to develop.


Hope this helps.  I lived with this problem a while (~4 months) before deciding
to drill a new well to replace the "cheap" driven point well installed by the
builder.

Gary

Thanks for your interest.

re: .8

>	You have an air leak somewhere in the system.  Try dropping the 
>	charge to 45 PSI.  

Chuck,
I'm not sure I understand.

I have a bladder tank; the air and the water are separate.

Per the directions on the tank, I turned off the pump, ran water until none 
left, and then pressurized the tank to a bit below the cut-in pressure of
27 psi.  This air isn't going anywhere (at least, not quickly.  It's still
25 psi a week later.)  Are you referring to an air leak somewhere else?

What I *think* I have is a water leak; that I *think* is going back down 
the well (at least, it acts that way).  What part of the system keeps the 
water from going back down the well?

Ray

    
    
    	The check valve at the pump outlet.
    
    	Also check for wet spots between the well and the house.  Have any
    	large trucks driven across the aarea that the water line is in?
    	Even a line 4 ft deep can be hurt if a large heavy truck drives
    	over it.  That happened to my folks years ago after the septic
    	pumper drove over it.
    

re: .11

>    	The check valve at the pump outlet.

I take it you mean the one at the end of the pipe at the bottom of the 
well?  I may try to wait until spring before I check this out (or pay the 
plumber).  Unfortunately (for me), I think you've cracked the problem.

>    	Also check for wet spots between the well and the house.  Have any
>    	large trucks driven across the aarea that the water line is in?

Luckily, this can't happen in my yard 8^) (Of course, the water line could 
have sprung a leak for some other perverse reason...)

Ray

	Some systems have more than one check-valve. There usually is
	one at the end of the line (the one submerged in water) and there
	can be a check-valve at the entrance to the pump.  The one at the
	entrance to the pump can be inspected rather easily.  
	
	
	Chuck

re .13

   I have a valve on the tank similar to the ones on tires, but water is not
  coming out of it.

re .14

   I'll check these out as much as possible.  I won't check anything below 
   ground level, till spring, if then.  We'll probably just hook up to the
   town water on the street sometime this year.

   The well I would say is old.  The concrete cover looks ancient, so I'd
   bet that the well has been serving this 90 year old house for a real long
   time.  This being the case, what were some of the older techniques used
   for older wells, from say, the 1920's or so?  I can see a rubber or plastic
   hose going down into the earth inside of the circular concrete casing, 
   covered by the concrete lid.

   Bottom line, I don't want to spend any money fixing this well system,
   I'd rather use it towards getting town water hooked up.  But until then,
   I'd like to get rid of the air in the system.

  Thanks

   Steve

re: .13

There's nothing resembling a check valve close to the pump.  That would 
have made things too easy, and would have provided unnecessary redundancy 
in the system, allowing it not to fail often enough 8^) 8^)

Ray

Ray,
	Why don't you add a check valve to the system and resolve your
problem. It don't hurt to have too many check valves in the pipes.

	Bill

re: .15               -< Just add another check valve... >-

I've been toying with just that idea ever since the mention of systems with 
two.  All I've got to do is find one that will go into the current set-up
easily.  8^) 

Ray

    The check valve at the bottom of the well is called a foot valve.
    
    On a jet pump there are two pipes that run into the well, the larger
    pipe carries water up from the well, and the smaller one carries
    water down into the well.  Adding a check valve to the larger pipe
    won't help because the smaller pipe will still allow water to go
    down, and adding a check valve to the smaller pipe to stop water
    from going down will cause the system to stop working completely.
    
    The jet pump does not lift the water by suction, but uses a jet
    at the bottom of the well to push water up.  Both pipes have to
    be full of water before the system can work.  The pump sends part
    of the water from the large pipe into the storage tank, and part
    of it down the smaller pipe, to the jet, to lift more water.  At
    the bottom of the well, below the jet assembly, is the foot valve.
    The foot valve is a check valve that keeps the water from draining
    back into the well.  
    
    Now, just a guess, but since the entire system is pressurized (the
    tank, pump, both pipes to well) then it would be very hard to have
    air leak into the system.  On the other hand, a water leak in any
    of the pipes or a leaky foot valve would cause the system to slowly
    lose pressure.  When it gets down to a certain point the pump will
    start and bring the pressure back up.  If you can't see water leaking
    in the house, then your problem sounds like one of the pipes to
    the well or the foot valve.  I would replace the foot valve first,
    since it's much easier then digging up pipes.
    
    good luck...
    Jim D.

re: .17

Thanks for the explanation of the system, (and therefore why I shouldn't 
add a check valve at the pump).

We had already come to the conclusion that the foot valve was probably 
leaky, as I had completely eliminated the house piping by reproducing the 
problem with the main shut-off closed.

Of course, if it's not the foot valve, I could always sell the house... 8^\

Ray

I just moved into a 3-year-old house that has a well with a pump and tank in
the basement.  I had the water system checked out by the building inspector
when I bought the house, and he said everything is working fine, but ...

What can I do to reduce the noise of the pump?  I know it's never going to be
silent like being on city water, but I wonder if I can dampen the sound somehow
or adjust the pump settings/configuration to mimimize the sound of the pump
heard throughout the house.

o Can I, for instance, build a box around the pump and line it with some
  sound-absorbing material? Any problems with this (heat build-up?)
o Should I get a larger tank?
o Should I set the pump cut out point higher?

Some specs:

Pump is a 3/4 hp Gould
Tank is Gould, not sure of capacity. Model V60. (About 3 feet high.)
Both are in corner of poured concrete basement. Floor drain nearby.
Pump is set to cut out/in at 50 and 35.  

Just my wife and myself live in the house, but in the summer we plan to do a
fair amount of watering (lawn, gardens).

Thanks for any help.

    Yes, I am sure a box or closet around it would help reduce the noise,
    and as long as it is not sealed, it shouldn't have any heat problems. 
    Just be sure to make the enclosure large enough so that none of the
    insulation is in contact with the pump.
    
    Your pump will need servicing, so make sure that you leave a way to get
    at it.
    
    We have lived in a house for 4+ years with a similar setup.  It is in
    a closet in the basement.  I don't even hear it anymore (especially 
    over the noise of the oil/FHA furnace!).
    
    I wouldn't spend too much time/energy/$$ on a solution though...  
    After awhile you will just tune out the noise.
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

    I'd second .20; odds are extremely good that you'll get used to
    it, and in fact almost enjoy it (no fooling).  At least, that has
    been my experience in houses with in-basement pumps.  When you
    hear it, and it sounds "normal", it's reassuring.
    Of course, I may be relating it to childhood memories on my 
    grandfather's farm, and people without that connection may not
    enjoy the sound so much, but give yourself a while to settle in
    before you spend big bucks on silencing it.
    
    Some sort of enclosure would certainly silence it - a simple plywood
    box around it ought to do.  As long as you give the pump and motor
    a reasonable amount of clearance, I doubt that it would heat up
    enough to bother in a relatively cool basement.

    My pump is located directly under the master bedroom and I consider the
    fact that I *can* hear it to be an advantage. When my tank lost its'
    precharge I knew something was wrong right away because I could hear
    the pump cycling differently.
    
    ...or when one of the seals let go in the middle of the night. The pump
    came on, woke me up, and I knew something was amiss.
    
    If it's *real* loud you may have a problem with it. It shouldn't sound
    like much more than an electric motor, quietly whirring away.
    
    Edd

    It Popular Science in the "Wordless Workshop" they showed a cartoon of
    taking styrofoam board and gluing it into the shape of a 5 sided box (1
    side missing) and using it as a means of insulating attic stairs
    opening.  
    
    You could get some styrofoam insulation board, cut to size, glue the
    edges together and make a cover for your pump.  It would be light weight,
    inexpensive and easy to make.  
    
    I agree that you will find the pump noise comforting after a while.  If
    you do make a cover, leave at least 4-6 inches air space around the
    motor and put in some vents to let heat out and air circulate.
    

My commiserations.  This is the inverse of what happened when we took possesion
of our housr -- we had too much water (all over the living room floor).
 But that is another story.


Talk to a well drilling outfit, preferably several.  What they will
tell you is that there is no such thing as "deep enough" or "normal depth".

Usually, they drill until there is adequate flow, and then some more,
because the well pipe gives you some of your storage.  They might hit a
vein of water at 150 feet, but not enough for your needs -- so they
drill down to 400 feet or 600 feet and pick up two more.  In
massachusetts, I have never heard of not being able to get water if
youy drill deep enough -- it just costs big dollars.

Hydrofracting sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't.   In your case it
clearly didn't -- sometimes it even reduces the flow, I believe.

Legally, you are on firm ground, since the previous owner clearly knew
about the problem, and if he had hydrofracting done you have
independant collaboration of that fact.  The problem that I forsee is
that he will say "I'llpay to drill until you get 150 gallons per day"
and you say "I need 500 gallons per day".

There are accepted figures for usage though, which a drilling outfit
should be able to supply.   Even if there are only two of you now, but
you have bought, say, a four bedroom house, you are entitled to require
a water supply (and septic system) that is adequate for five persons.  
Your building codes may even require it.

	Andrew

You need to find out what your flow rate is first.

For a given flow rate you can determine what an adequate size well is
for your water usage.   Even 1 gallon a minute will suffice if you have
a 1000' well.   Mine is only 2.5 gallons a minute but at 500' depth I have
never run out of water.

-Larry

    	Well drillers in western Mass say that deepening a well can
    not be done after the well driling rig has been removed. In that
    case you would have to have a whole new well. I live in western
    Mass, and now I need a well drilled. I have talked to four drillers
    about returning and redrilling if I run out of money before they
    hit water. They all say that there is no way!
    
    	What does your lawyer say about going to court and forcing the
    seller to drill you a good well.

    Kirk

RE: .4

>    	Well drillers in western Mass say that deepening a well can
>    not be done after the well driling rig has been removed.

	My neighbor who worked for a well drilling company has in the past
had his well dug deeper.... I guess they do it different from central to
western Mass.

		Bill

    what ever happen to buyer beware?
    

>>    what ever happen to buyer beware?

	What ever happened to good will?  Or treat one's neighbor as onesself?

	Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) died when the lawyers noticed
	an unserved market ;-}  Too many people bought a pig in a poke,
	failed to look a gift horse in the mouth, bought fool's gold, and
	forgot to look before they leapt, so laws were passed.

	The modern concept is "full disclosure."  If I tell you about a 
	problem, you have been disclosed and can make your own decisions about 
	treating it.  We just sold a house with a radon reading of 6 (the 
	US Government standard says 4.0 or below is safe).  By disclosing 
	this to the buyers (with their formal response in writing), we 
	dismissed our responsibility in the matter, and the buyers accepted 
	the responsibility.  They can mitigate if they wish.

	On the other hand, one must still be careful to ask pointed questions
	of realtors.  A "not to my knowledge" response is not an answer,
	but it seems to meet the letter of the law.  I suppose that if you
	(the realtor) don't know the answer, you have fully disclosed by
	that response.

	-andy kegel@krisis (aka smurf::kegel)

  Can anyone recommend a reliable independent test lab in the Greater
  Maynard area which will test for minerals and bacteria and help me
  understand the results? I'm told that Sears doesn't test for bacteria,
  and, besides, they're not independent -- they sell water treatment
  products. Thanks very much.

    Try WaterTest.  800-426-8378.  They're in N.H. and do a large variety
    of tests at a wide variety of prices.  Everything's handled via one of
    the express services, so you don't have to take the sample there.  They
    include a freezer pack with styrofoam for the perishable samples, such
    as coliform bacteria.
    
    Peter

    I've used Rietzel (sp?) Labs in Boylston.  You do have to take the
    samples there (you also have to go there to pick up clean/sterile
    bottles to put the samples in).  From Bolton it's not too bad but
    it might be a bit of a drive from Maynard.  If you can do it via
    express service with WaterTest, it would probably be more convenient,
    but Rietzel is good.

    Your town's Board of Health office might have bottles. Stow's does.

  Yeah, but that isn't exactly what I want tested ... :-)

  Many thanks to all who replied (here and by mail).

>	On the other hand, one must still be careful to ask pointed questions
>	of realtors.  A "not to my knowledge" response is not an answer,

Might be a better idea to insist on asking the seller directly.  When I was
in real estate (many moons ago) I was instructed NEVER to ask any questions.
In fact we were encouraged to stop the seller if it looked as though he/she
were about to make disclosures.  

Luckily I never sold a house, so can live with a clean conscience.  Also
luckily, I got out of the field (to which I was clearly unsuited).

Betty

As I understand the law in Mass., real estate agents are not obliged to 
seek out any detrimental information about a house being offered for sale,
but if an agent already knows detrimental information she is required to 
disclose it to all potential purchasers.

When we submitted a bid for our house, we attached the housing inspector's
report, thus forcing the agent to disclose lots of detrimental information
about the house.  The result was that several prospective purchasers dropped
out entirely, the last remaining bidder dropped way way down in price, and
we got the house.

The bottom line on the base noter's problem, however, is what was in the 
purchase and sales agreement, right?

    My water was recently analyzed as being mildly acidic --- 6.0 to 6.5. 
    I have a couple of questions:
    
    1.	I know that you can put in a treatment system as the water enters
    	the house to neutralize the Ph, but, what does the acid content
    	do to the well???   Will it eat through the casing or the pump?
    
    2.	As for drinking this stuff, one of the water specialists I 
    	contacted mentioned that I should install a chemical feeder 
    	at the point where the water enters my house.  The feeder turns 
    	on when the pump turns on.  It injects potassium hydroxide 
    	(POT ASH, I think) as a neutralizer.
    
    	a.  How dangerous is concentrated potassium hydroxide to keep
    	    around my house?
    	b.  How bad is it (over my lifetime) to be drinking this stuff 
    	    when diluted?  Or is there some chemical reaction that leaves
    	    a by-product?
    
    	c.  How does this process differ from a neutralizing filter?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    Roger
    
    

    My town water is also in acid range about pH 6-6.5.  The acidic water
    does react with metallic pipes slowly.  On copper supply lines, it
    leaches out copper into the water.  You will see blue stains in the
    toilet or where water drips.  The water will also have a funny metallic
    taste when it stands in the pipes overnight.
    
    I think that adding some alkaline material to acidic water doesn't
    produce any harmful side effects.  Any chemistry experts out there?
    I think Pot Ash is very stable, kind of like limestone.
    
    -al

Concentrated potassium hydroxide is nasty stuff.  Treat it the same as you
would treat lye, it's quite similar to it.  Keep it dry and sealed, it'll suck
moisture right out of the air.  Be careful mixing it with water, it'll get hot
as it dissolves.

Once properly neutralized by acid, the stuff is harmless.

-Mike

This is from a chemist at Digital:
    
I talked to my manager, (PhD chemist type) and quite up on this stuff.
He said that 6-6.5 pH ain't that unusual for a water supply. He seemed
to remember CocaCola as being 2-3 on the scale. He said that it was 
*not* a good idea to be neutralizing your water. Then he mumbled some-
thing about "...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..."

Basically, your water is a bit acidic, yes, but not worth worrying about.
The chemicals you add may be more harmful than the low pH. 

That's our diagnosis here in Northboro.

    Our water neutralizer just bubbles the water up through fine grain
    limestone.  It works great.  The blue tinge on my shower is slowly
    fading away.  The neighbor had one installed too.  His kid's hair is
    returning to blond.  Both the independent water testing lab and the
    neutralizer salesman (of course) said our water was way too acid,
    though I don't recall a Ph figure.  
    						- Vick

re<<< Note 1674.7 by R2ME2::BENNISON "Victor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56" >>>

  What was the cost of having this acidic water neutralizer installed?  Can you
  DIY?

   

    It cost about $600 for the neutralizer plus a water filter (lots of
    muck in our water) plus a line and outdoor tap I asked the installer
    to put in for me.  I wouldn't have wanted to do it myself, but I'm real
    unhandy with plumbing.  The installer was excellent.
    
    					- Vick

>       <<< Note 1674.4 by VIA::SUNG "The Duke: It costs mass millions" >>>
    
>    I think that adding some alkaline material to acidic water doesn't
>    produce any harmful side effects.  Any chemistry experts out there?

An acid plus an alkali gives you a salt plus water.
For example, HCl (hydrochloric acid) plus NaOH (sodium hydroxide, lye)
yields HOH (water) plus NaCl (sodium chloride, table salt).
This is just an example, your acid and salt may vary.
It's probably more important to you as to which acid you've got.
Sulphuric acid will probably make your water smell and drive you to
neutralize it.  Others might not have any obvious effect.
Also, pH is only one of the measures of acidity.
Total acid content and effect on you and your plumbing need more complete
tests and evaluation.

- tom]

Folks,

We have friends who has a well that has acidic water; it was too
late to soon to add the neutralizer system for them. They
discovered little leaks all over the house from the leaky copper
lines. Cost a bundle to replace the water lines with the grey
plastic lines.

Another condition needs to be thought of; if you have high blood
pressure, you might ask your doctor about water systems that add
salt to your water system.

cal

re .11:

>Another condition needs to be thought of; if you have high blood
>pressure, you might ask your doctor about water systems that add
>salt to your water system.

Looks like someone already thought of this in the case of the system mentioned
in .3.  It uses potassium hydroxide and not sodium hydroxide which is easier
to obtain and probably cheaper.

Sodium is the nasty in table salt regarding high blood pressure.

-Mike

    I've read all the info I could find in this file in relation
    to wells. Good stuff, but I still have a few questions.

    	I currently have a well at my summer camp which cannot
    keep up with any "heavy" demands. It can handle weekend use
    when caution is exercised, but a solid week of vacation will
    drink it dry. I must improve the water supply one way or another
    and am interested in the inexpensive (read:cheap) solutions, before
    I call in the drillers.
    
    	What is the feasibility of digging an existing 16-20' well another
    12 feet deeper? (the magic number is 32' right?) Would popular
    opinion be that flow would increase as well as stored volume?

    	The existing well is lined with ?concrete? cylinders which
    have been there for 60+ years and probably won't move. How about
    inserting the new walls inside the existing ones then digging?
    Are there rental digging devices available? Something that looks
    like a posthole digger connected to a pulley/winch system?

    Feel free to tell me I'm crazy for entertaining such a thought....

    Any advice is appreciated...

    Rick

    

    Actually, the practical limit for a shallow-well pump is about
    25', so I've been told.  32' is quite theoretical.  You can't
    get that perfect a vacuum.  You could of course go to a
    submersible or jet pump to go deeper, but that's $$$.
    
    What is the diameter of the existing hole?  From your description,
    it sounds like it's something you can climb down inside of...yes?
    If so, I guess you could get down in there and dig some more,
    and see if that improved the situation any.  The liner may go
    deeper than what you can see (after 60 years, it may have filled
    up some), and you could re-dig to the bottom of the existing liner.
    
    I guess you could put a new (smaller) liner inside the existing
    one and dig down inside that, but you might not be able to get
    down inside then (assuming you can now).  Machinery...maybe one 
    of those clamshell arrangements like they clean storm drains with?
    
    The simplest thing is probably to get somebody to come and drill
    a deep well.  Shallow wells tend to be (in theory) subject to
    contamination, anyway.

    
    	This doesn't exactly fit here, but sort of.
    
    	We live in a circa 1750 house.  There is a well on the back porch,
    but is too close to the septic to be usable.
    
    	My question is how do we fill in the old well?  It overflows
    thru the cellar.  And I want the wet out.  Do we have to drain the
    well first?  And then what do we fill it with?  Rocks and sand? 
    
    	Any suggestions???      Linda 

    You can't really "drain" a well unless you can put in a pipe
    down at the level you want the water to be at and run it downhill
    someplace from there.  I can't imagine a way you could do this.
    The level of water in a well is the level of the water table in
    the ground, so that's what you are stuck with.  I guess if you
    live on a hill the topography might be such that you could manage
    this, but it would probably take a lot of deep trenching.
    
    As far as filling it in, I'd use sand.

huh?  Did you mean a well or a cistern?  A well has water flowing into it
from below and a cistern collects and stores rainwater, usually from the roof.
If you have a well, then -.1 is correct, you're going to have a hard time
keeping water out of it.  If you have a cistern, then you may also have some
drainage pipes going into it.  Can you use the water for lawn and landscaping
needs?

-Bob

    
    Its a well.  I imagine when the house was first built, the well was put
    on the porch for convenience.  As the well is on the back porch, there
    is not way to run a pipe to drain it.  I guess I will try the sand, it
    may not take care of all the water but getting rid of some is better
    than none.  
    
    Thanks, Linda
    

    Filling in the well won't get rid of *any* of the water.  The level
    of the water in the well is the level of the water in the ground.

    Plant a willow tree nearby.
    
    Dick

    I've been following this string for awhile and wonder why someone
    hasn't suggested this:  (maybe because it won't work???)
    
    since filling the well hole with sand won't stop the water (porous
    sand), why not try to fill it withi something that's not nearly so
    porous.  
    
    what if you mixed a bag of cement with a bag of sand and dumped the dry
    mixture down the hole.  It'd wet up, then cure and plug the hole.  I'm
    not sure what ratio of sand to cement I'd try...maybe someone can
    suggest?
    
    tony

    re: .17
    That would certainly remove the water from the well, but the problem
    (as I understand the question) isn't the water in the well, it's
    the water in the cellar, which is coming from the surrounding ground.
    You could fill the well with concrete, but then you'd just have the
    equivalent of a large rock a short distance from the cellar wall,
    and still have the water in the ground all around it.
    
    Now, your concrete trick *might* work to some extent if it was a
    drilled well and water was coming up into the well from deeper down
    in the ground through a non-porous layer; then you would slow down
    at least the rate of water flow.  But with a 1750-vintage dug well,
    I dont' think that applies.
    

    If you don't feel that the water is fit for human consumption, How
    about using the water from the well for your landscaping?. This may
    keep the groundwater level down and therefore out of the cellar, as
    well as providing a source of water for your plants. Am I off base here
    or is this a possible solution?
    
    -Scott

    re: .19
    Might work, if you could pump enough often enough, and the refill rate 
    of the well was slow enough.  I suspect though, you'd have to pump
    pretty much all the time for it to make a significant difference.
    Put a sump pump in the bottom of the well!

    First, the water level in the well is a direct reflection of the water
    table.  The only way that water from the well will affect the basement
    water problem is if the ground flow is toward the house.  The solution
    for that is to use a sump pump type of deal to keep the water lower
    than the back flow.  Another way to correct this is to seal the water
    flow or the basement wall.  Even if the well is filled with sand or
    cement, when the water table rises to that level, the flow to the
    basement will occur, that is the point.
    
    Before you simply close up this well have the water checked for safety. 
    It is entirely possible that the underground flow pattern from the
    nearby septic system (drain field) is such that the well is fine.  That
    regulation is to protect for all/most situations.  Given the poor
    quality of Massachuesetts water supplies, the well might be a big asset
    if it is pure.  
    
    Given the cost of water, even if the water is unfit for consumption, it
    can be used to water lawns and gardens.  Since hand dug wells are
    shallow, pumps for the well are not too expensive.  
    
    

    
    	It's me again, the one with the well.  The well is about 6 feet
    away from the cellar wall on the porch.  What I want to do is keep
    some of the water out of the cellar.  If I fill it in, won't I 
    displace the water???  I know at first it will probably go through
    the cellar to be pumped out, but after some time won't the water
    stop flowing.
    	I don't need this well for water my gardens.  I already have
    two other wells.  An artesian that we put in about 8 years ago, and
    the other hand dug well that we used previously.
    	Thank you for all of your suggestions.
    
    	Linda
    

re .22:

>    some of the water out of the cellar.  If I fill it in, won't I 
>    displace the water???  I know at first it will probably go through
>    the cellar to be pumped out, but after some time won't the water
>    stop flowing.

Nope.  The water level in the well is only an indication of the water level
in the soil.  Fill in the well and the water level in the soil doesn't change,
and your basement will still be wet.

Probably the best solution is the sump pump in the well.  This will actually
make an attempt to LOWER the water level in the ground because the water in the
soil will run into the dry well instead of the basement.

-Mike

    a riddle:
    
    If Linda WATERman has too much water in her cellar,
    	     ^^^^^                 ^^^^^
    
    
    What will Tony BEAN have in his?
    		   ^^^^
    
    	sorry, folks... just a silly moment.  forgive me!  ;^)
    
    tony

    
    re: Last 2
    
    	Here's what I ended up doing....
    
    	The dug well mentioned in .-1 and .-2 was already dug
    down to the bottom of the lining. All the advice I got
    pointed to the wise decision being to call the drillers.
    
    	I did and 2500 bucks later I had 32 GPM at 84 feet. Ledge
    was around 50 feet. As drilled wells go I understand the price
    was pretty fair...? The drillers appeared to know their business
    but the guy that showed up to hookup the pump was a different
    story.
    
    	Now, I've had to train myself that I *can* run the water in
    the house..... :-)
    
    Rick

    
    Oh yeah... I had another question also....
    
    	Does anyone have a Wellmate fiberglass tank? Or not have one
    and happen to know the winterization process for them? It's
    fiberglass with an inflatable bladder located at the top of
    the tank. 
    
    	I drained the tank, but wasn't sure about the bladder. 
    Should I deflate it for the non-use period of the winter?
    The 2 page paperwork that came with it stated in several
    places not to let it freeze. This non-freeze requirement,
    I assume is when water is in the tank, true? Would the tank
    itself or some other component be damaged by freezing, when
    empty?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick
    
          

    re: .17
    My guess is, all you'd need to do is drain the water.

    We have a Wellmate plastic tank, the bladder should always have a
    charge on it. Draining the water should be sufficent, any small amount
    left in it will only compress the bladder a little bit if it freezes.
    

    WE (my wife and I ) just built a cabin in VT.  We are (hopefully)
    having the well dug this coming weekend (weather permitting).  I've
    checked out drilled wells and most of those in the area are several
    hundred feet and costs estimate around the $5000 mark.  
    
    my questions:
    
    The guys doing the digging are the same ones I've been using for all
    the rest of our excavation (driveway, stumps, house, trenches, etc.)
    and are great.  They both dowse, and from waht I hear, are pretty good
    (85 to 95 percent hit rate)  and we'll dig test holes before the well
    is dug..  do any of you put much stock in dowsing?
    
    also, I am planning on having the pump inside the cellar, in an
    insulated room (built for the purpose) which will also contain the
    propane hot water heater.  This arrangement will prevent freezing. 
    Pipes which go outside this room will be drained into a dry well.  The
    pipe bringing water INTO this room, and to the holding tank from the
    well, will be wrapped in good electrical heating tape.
    
    am I overlooking anything? 
    
    also, the pipe from well to house will be below frost level and will
    have 2 inches of solid foam insulation over it as well as 48 in.
    sand/dirt.
    
    tony

    re .20
    
    I thought that cellar pumps were only for shallow wells and that
    "several hunderd feet" called for a submersible pump.
    
    As for their hit rate, that has more to do with your location than
    their skills.
    
    Tony

    re: .21
    No, you can put a deep well pump in the cellar too.  It's not the
    same setup as a shallow well pump though; there are two lines going
    to the well, so it pumps a portion of the water back down the well
    to create the lift.  (Not too sure of the operational details, I'm
    afraid, but it does work.)
    

re .22:

That's a jet pump.  It pumps water down into the well to a jet which basically
shoots upward, bringing more water up with it than was sent down.  I don't know
what the height limitations of these are.  Normal pumps are limited to 33
vertical feet of suction (in theory; much less in actual practice) which is why
most deep-well pumps are down in the well.

-Mike

 Seems like its time to revive this topic...

 Recently our pump has begun to cycle on and off at an annoying rate when small 
amounts of water are being drawn. The pressure gauge goes rapidly from ~30 
to ~50 pounds and back again. From reading this and related topics, I am 
fairly certain that the holding tank is full of water. Our tank is quite large, 
I would estimate ~50 gallons, and is a plain galvanized job with inlet and 
outlet at opposite sides at the bottom, and a ~1.5" threaded hole at the top 
with a solid plug in it. I suspect it does not have any sort of bladder in it.
How does one go about replacing air in a "non-captive" tank? Will I need to 
remove the solid plug and replace it with an air valve? If I remove the plug, 
and drain the tank, will it just refill to the top with H2O? Does 
pre-pressurizing the tank allow for a larger air cushion than just letting it 
fill with water to the point where the air in the top of the tank has 
compressed to ~50 lbs? 

                                             Regards,

                                                  Paul

    Your assessment seem right on target.  Over time the air gets absorbed
    by the water going through the tank.  A bladder only slows this down.
    At this point the tank is probably filled with water and you need to
    drain it out and then if possible build up an air charge to within
    a couple of pounds of the pump turn on pressure.  
    
    You stated that you had an input pipe and a different output pipe. 
    Some installations use a "T" tank connector so that the water can
    flow from the input side to the outside without passing through the
    tank.  
    
    The first step is to shut off the pump.  There should be a valve on 
    both the input side and output pipes.  There should also be a spigot
    between one of the tank pipes and those valves so that you can drain
    the tank.  Shut off the valves and get ready to empty the tank.  If
    you have a drain, run a hose to the drain, otherwise you will need 
    some buckets.  On my installations I also always had an air intake
    stem.  If you have one, you need a tank of air to fill the tank and
    push out the water.  The process is to empty the tank, until there is a 
    vacuum and the water stops.  Shut off the spigot and put some air in.
    Do this until you start to get air from the spigot.  Shut off the
    spigot.  Fill the tank up to working pressure, open the pump/input
    valve and turn on the pump.  When it stops, drain a little from the
    spigot to get rid of possible air, shut off the spigot and turn on
    the output value and run some water through to get rid of any air in
    the system.
    
    If you do not have an air stem, you have to take off the insert at the
    top and let gravity empty the tank.  Recharging may not be possible,
    but if you can get the tank pressurized it is better.  If not you just
    close it up and the water will rise in the tank until the right
    pressure is reached.  
    
    This is a lot easier to do than the explanation is to read.  Just think
    that you want to drain the tank and not the house lines and the process
    is relatively straight forward.  If I can do this, it is not that hard.

    I'd like to know about people's experiences with hand pumps
    (pitcher pumps) and shallow well setups. Here's the situation:
    
    I'm planning on getting a shallow well (dug by backhoe) for my
    summer camp in Maine. It is on a lake, and I've used lake water
    directly for most things except for drinking. drinking water comes
    from a couple gallons of spring water that we bring in. It would
    be much more convenient to have a hand pump outside my door than to
    have to fetch water from the lake, and I also would expect better
    water in a shallow well since it would be filtered through the
    ground/sand. 
    	I've found a guy to dig and install well tiles cheap enough.
    My question now is, are all pitcher pumps created equal ? If not,
    what are some good ones, how do I identify them, where do I get them ?
    I've used some at campgrounds before that tend to even run for several
    seconds after you get them going, do they all do this, or only the
    better ones ? How have people mounted these pumps ?
    	Any feedback on the shallow well/handpump setup is welcome. The
    well is expected to be only 8 feet deep. Other's in the area are, and
    they have ample water.
    
    				Steve
    
    
    moderator: I couldn't find any notes that discussed pitcher pumps.
    Move this if needed, and I was wrong ! Also, you might add the
    appropriate keyword for this. thanks

    Having been the son of a campground owner, I recall that there are
    basically 2 types of pumps - single and double acting.  Single acting
    are the familiar "pitcher" pumps.  Once the piston gasket wears a
    little, and the foot valve (foot valve is needed on the bottom of the
    pipe for either type) gets a piece of sand in it, you'll need to prime
    the pump more and more frequently.  Pitcher pumps deliver water only on
    the downstroke of the pump handle.  
    
    The double piston pump typically has a faucet on the end, which, when
    closed, helps to keep the pump primed for long periods of time.  These
    pumps deliver on both the up and down strokes.  
    
    The biggest difference, tho, is the price.  The double will cost 2 to 5
    times as much as a pitcher pump, but is worth it, IMO.  
    
    P.S. This is from thirty years ago, so my terminology may not be
    correct.  
    
    Carl

    I've been looking around, and have found three places that carry these
    pumps (all single action, I believe). Somerville lumber $49.99,
    Sears $42.99, Lowell plumbing $65.00. I'm going to check them out this
    weekend and compare quality (if that's even obvious !).
    	Do you have any pointers to a supplier of the dual-action ? These
    pumps I have found all have fairly short handles, I seem to remember
    using bigger ones at campgrounds, maybe they were the duals.
    	Also, I'm planning on setting my well tiles on a bed of stone,
    so maybe I'll be lucky and my foot valve will stay clear. That would be
    nice !
    
    			thanks for the info
    
    						Steve

    What are "well tiles"?
    
    Marc H.

    I have heard that the pump handles are often cast metal which is
    generally more brittle than other forms of metal.  Handles are often
    replaced with lengths of pipe welded to the pump to fix those broken
    off by over vealous pumpers.  When the handle is replaced, it may be
    replaced by a longer handle to improve teh leverage.

    What I'm calling well tiles, and what the local supplier up there
    calls well tiles, are pre-cast concrete cylinders, about 3 feet
    in diameter, and either 2 or 4 feet tall. They are merely set into
    an excavated hole and the water fills (to some point) the well from
    the bottom opening. (I haven't seen one, they could be slightly
    different). Also, these could have a different name here in Mass., 
    but I don't think so.

    
    Thanks...sounds like well tiles are really well liners.
    
    I have an old shallow dug well (160 years old)....I just might put
    in a Pitcher Pump also.
    
    Marc H.

    I bought a pump. Sears didn't carry the one they sell, it's a catalog
    order only. I went to Lowell Plumbing, and compared theirs to what I
    had seen at Somerville Lumber, and I'm sure it was the exact same
    pump, manufacturer and all. Lowells price was higher, but he sold it
    to me for the lower price.
    	I tried it at home in a tub of water, and I think it's gonna do
    just fine ! I should get the well dug in May, and the pump installed.
    I'll keep this note posted in case anyone can learn anything from what
    I go through.

           
    Well, I've read everything in here regarding Radon, every brochure
    I could find, and still have  questions:  (also entered in Real_Estate
    note)
    
    I'm negotiating on a house that had a carbon water filter for Radon
    installed back in '86.  Then, it was the thing to do.  Now, they
    are just about classified as hazardous waste, since all the Radon
    has collected there for 5 years.
                                            
    question 1:
    How do I dispose of it?  I'm trying to find the right person in
    the EPA for info.  Will it be expensive to dispose of?  I may need
    to put a disposal clause into the P&S if it looks tough to do.
    
    I checked the water and air radon levels: air 2.8 basement, living
    area 2.3; water 9800.  All those levels are OK.  But - the EPA,
    I hear, is thinking of lowering the recommended water level to as
    low as 300!
         (water level was tested *without* the filter on-line)
    
    question 2: has anyone heard about the proposed EPA levels?
               
    question 3: I understand radon emits Gamma radiation.  will that
    show up on a geiger counter???
    
    I really like the house I'm speaking of, or else I'd probably drop
    all this for the hassle I'm going thru to research it!
                                         
    Thanks.
    
    Bob...
                                                              
               !if the filter is"hot" enough, meybe I could open up
    my own local nuclear power plant???

re .19:

>    question 3: I understand radon emits Gamma radiation.  will that
>    show up on a geiger counter???

Radon and its daughters emit alpha, beta and gamma so they will show up if you
are checking residue. Radon itself emits alpha and probably gamma.  I don't
know which of the 3 (alpha, beta, gamma) the Geiger counter is sensitive to.

>               !if the filter is"hot" enough, meybe I could open up
>    my own local nuclear power plant???

How about digging a uranium mine where your well is?

-Mike

Had a dug well about 20' or so deep at our 'camp' in Vermont.  A friend and I
got the job of removing years of mud that accumulated at the bottom one summer.
Got kind of cold down there.  The well must have been 5' in diameter with the
round tiles.

It had the type of pump we had to prime so we always kept a quart bottle on the
top of the well for that and always refilled it when we were done pumping.

Dave

    I just stumbled onto this note and had to quibble with the math for the
    sake of any future readers...
    
    
.6>    The static water level is 15' from the top of the well 
.6>    which gives me at least 600' to 650' of water.  
.6>    All that adds up to 900 gals + 360gals/4hours or 1260 gallons
.6>    of water available every 4 hours.  
    
    seems to me that this really adds up to 1260 gals in the first four
    hours, and 360 gals in each successive four hours (until the excess of
    supply over demand can replenish the initial 900 gals or so of storage).
    
    in other words, volume capacity is storage plus inflow, but once
    storage is used it's not available until replenished.

    re: .9  deeper wells producing harder water.
    
    With all the well people we've been talking to lately, it seems that
    the deeper the well, the higher the mineral content.  This would
    explain your finding, too.
    
    Elaine
    

    Time to update a silent note.
    
    My husband and I are in the process of trying to get a well drilled on
    a lot we would like to buy so we can close.  Our bank is requiring this
    as a condition of the consturction loan.
    
    My comment is this:  based on discussions in HOME_WORK, with well users
    and installers, we would really like to use a cable drilled well. 
    There are several (about a dozen) cable people in central New England,
    but about half are out of business.  Another quarter are out of
    state and either won't travel far or are not licensed out of state.
    
    I'm afraid that this is becoming a dying art.  If anyone has recently
    had a cable drilled well done, please contact me.  Since we are under a
    time constraint, I'm afraid we'll end up with a rotary driller.
    
    I'm dying to find out the outcome: we learned to dowse this weekend,
    but need some confirmation of what we believe is down under the ground!
    
    Elaine

    
    
     Well, Deep wells=BIG_MONEY. My well is 700 feet. The water is not hard
    and I did have the water tested.   
    
    		Wayne

    
     Are you refering to a "Pounder"? I looked around several years ago but
    it proved to be impossible to find one. It takes soo much longer to
    "pound" the hole then using a rotary drill. I found that the ones that
    would service the area that I am in were all booked up for the season.  
                                                                         	

    At my folks cabin in Wis. we had picher pump that we used for over 30
    years.  We had to replace the leathers (fairly simple job) every 7 or 8
    years but no other problems.  
    
    Instead of digging a well, we drove a sand point about 20 feet down.
    Before you ask, a sand point is basically a pointed piece of pipe
    (maybe 1 1/2" dia x 30" long) with holes drilled all around it.  The
    inside is lined with a fine mesh brass screen to keep sand out.  You
    screw a 5' section of pipe onto the point and drive it in.  As driving
    progresses, you keep adding more pipe sections.  The driving tool
    consisted of a piece of 2" pipe about 3 feet long, capped at one end
    and long 'D' shaped handles on each side.  You pick it up. and let it
    fall down onto the pipe, driving it into the ground.  (the driven pipe
    always has a cap on the top end to protect the threads.)  This worked
    great in a place where the nearest rock was 10 miles away - don't know
    how good it would be in New England.
    

    I had the same thing happen Friday p.m.  It tripped most of the
    breakers in my house, blew my vcr and messed up my well water.  I
    called the well company sat. a.m. and he told me to just let the water
    run for hours til it cleared.  I let it run yesterday for over 6 hours
    and finally ended up with crystal clear water (after having gone from
    orange, to then cloudy with rock "dust" then the sulphur smell).
    
    This a.m. the water is back to orange.  The water pressure also isn't
    what it was before.  How do I tell if I've got a leak or crack in the
    pipe?
    
    Kathy

    
    
    Just one question: How does anyone determine the flow rate of a well?
    Is is just as simple as turning on the tap for 4 hours to see how much
    comes out, or is there another way.

    I need some guidance.
    
    My husband and I had a well drilled 10 days ago on a lot we hope to
    build on.  The bank requires the well test for closing, and the town
    requires the water be potable for a building permit.
    
    After the well was drilled, the pump company installed the well pump,
    and began pumping water for a water test sample.  Shortly after they
    started pumping, they added a quart of bleach to the well.  I probably
    should have stopped them, but I didn't know why.  They then pumped for
    at least 3 hours (I don't know exactly how long), and left the sample
    for us to pick up.
    
    We got the results yesterday, and the Chlorine level is too high.  Also
    too high are Iron and Manganese.  The test report says the water is
    undrinkable.  Of course, the coliform bacteria level was zero.
    
    We're not sure what to do.  If we submit these results, will the bank
    reject the water?  Will the building inspector reject the water? 
    Should we pump the well for a long time, like all day, and then retest?
    Or is retesting necessary?
    
    We could ask the people involved, but we're not sure if pointing the
    problem out is a good idea.
    
    Also, was it bad for the well pump people to add bleach to the new
    well?
    
    Thanks.  I'm afraid I'm not thinking straight.
    
    Elaine

    re: .8
    No, you can't determine it just by turning on the water.  Suppose
    your well is a real winner and flows 25 gallons/minute.  There's
    no way you'll get 25 gallons/minute out of your faucets, even 
    with them all open.  I don't know how you'd do it.
    I can tell you how the well drillers did it when I got my well drilled;
    while the drilling rig was still in the hole, they used the rig
    (somehow) to pump water out of the hole.  As it flowed out of the
    hole, they took a shovel, made a sluiceway out of dirt, and
    stuck a pipe into it so the water had to flow through the pipe.
    Then they caught the water in a bucket and timed how long it took
    to fill the bucket.  After some interval of this they said the
    well was flowing at 6 gallons/minute.
    All this leads me to believe that the flow rate of a well tends
    to be a rather imprecise number....
    
    What you could do is open all the faucets and see if you can pump
    the well dry over a period of time, i.e. if you can pump it out
    faster than it can replenish itself.  This slightly risky, however,
    because I think you can burn out a submerged well pump in short order
    if it runs without being in water.

>    Should we pump the well for a long time, like all day, and then retest?
>    Or is retesting necessary?
    
>    Also, was it bad for the well pump people to add bleach to the new
>    well?
    
Not bad, In fact is done often to treat new wells or wells that have 
been sitting for a while. One or two treatments usually takes care of 
the bateria and then its just a matter of time to flush the chlorine 
out of the well.

What probably happened when they dumped the chlorine in was that it
coated the side of the pipe and well hole before it got to the water.
I would run the pump some more and use a hose to wash down the well
hole as you do it. This will help to get the rest of the chlorine down
into the water as well as sand/grit/dirt and other stuff you'll find
in a new well. Give this a chance to settle and then run the pump some
more too drain that out. Repeat as necessary. 

Charly

P.S. They sell some nice clean water in little bottles at most grocery 
     stores :-)

    Nope, adding bleach is fine.  It disinfects the well.  You
    have to do that will all new wells, and occasionally for
    existing wells.  The "chlorine level too high" merely means 
    that it was too high for the lab to give you a meaningful 
    coliform test.  You can pump more water out of the well for
    a while to get rid of the chlorine, then take another sample.  
    The testing lab can give you a sterile bottle for collecting the 
    sample in.
    
    I don't know what the bank requirements are; I think the only
    one that *REALLY* matters is the coliform test.  They may
    have additional requirements for iron and manganese levels,
    but you can fix that with a water softenener if those levels
    bother them.  The water is certainly drinkable regardless of
    the iron and manganese levels; you may just have hard water
    and orange toilet bowls if you don't treat the water.  The
    test report probably said "undrinkable" only because the
    chlorine level kept them from doing a definitive test for
    colifrm; at least, that's my guess.  Ask the lab about it.
    Let peace and calm prevail; sit in a quiet corner and say "Om".
    Having been through two house purchases and a bad well myself,
    I can sympathize, but in fact I don't think you have any real
    problems...just annoyances.  I think all will be okay in the end.
    
    

    Whew - that's encouraging.  Thanks for the quick replies.  It sounds
    like we need to just flush it a bit more before we order our water
    treatment equipment.  By the way, the other items were really
    excellent.  The pH is 7.3.  The hardness number was 103, where 75-150
    is normal hardness.
    
    re: .52  run a hose
    
    Can we just recirculate the water from the well to wash the pipe down? 
    It makes sense that there would be junk left on the sides from
    drilling.  I think turbidity was above the maximum, too.
    
    Elaine

    re: .54
    Yep, run the hose back down the well to disinfect the sides of the
    casing.  That's normal procedure; dump in the chlorine, then circulate
    the water through a hose, washing down the sides of the well.  A
    new well is pretty muddy; the turbidity should improve over time.
    It takes a while though.
    
    By the way, you don't need a whole lot of bleach.  If you can taste
    it in the water, you have PLENTY.

    During the drilling operation water is used to lubricate the bit.  By
    knowing the amount of water put down the well, the driller can bail the
    well from time to time and measure the amount of water in the well. 
    Obviously if you are taking more out than you put in, you are getting
    water.  A bailer is a large tube the fits inside the hole with a plunge
    valve at the end.  The bailer has a given capacity for its size.  The
    bailer is lowered and emptied until the water is drawn back down.  A
    final check can be done, where after a few minutes the bailer is lower
    again and the level checked.  The difference represents the gallons of
    water entering the well within the time frame and the calculation of
    gallons per minute can be made.  
      
    For percussion drillers (spudders) the sound of the drilling indicates
    when there is a need to empty out the water.  Spudders do not close the
    small underground fissures of water and the driller can "build" a well
    by drilling until the sum of all the little streams brings in the
    number of gallons needed (usually 5 gal. /min).  Rotaries tend to seal
    up the small streams, so they have to go deeper till they reach a major
    flow.  The process though is about the same.
    

    During the process of drilling the well the ground and rocks get
    puverized and the hole area gets disturbed.  Drillers usually put on
    their big pumps and really draw the well down and force clean water
    in.  Your apparently did not do this and you will have to run the
    pump.  Run it for a 24 hour period and then retest.  I had a well we
    disturbed and it took several days to clear.  After that it was great.

    I talked to the bank yesterday.  They are mostly concerned about
    coliform bacteria and arsenic.  Our test passed both, so we are all set
    to close.  That gives us the time to hook up the electricity to pump
    the well for a longer time.
    
    Thanks for the sanity checking.  When I spoke to my husband last night,
    he said you all confirmed what the lab technician told him when he
    picked up the results.  I didn't know that, but it made for a good
    independent check!
    
    re: .56
    
    We weren't there when the driller finished his work, so I'm not sure
    if he did draw the well down or not.
    
    Elaine

	When we purchased out place in 1978 we were told that the reason
	we had a 500' deep well was because it had a less than 1 GPM flow
	rate.  

	Thirteen years and ~$5K later, we now have a higher capacity well
	(nearly 7 GPM), a new and larger pump, a new and larger motor, 
	plastic instead of iron pipe, diaphram instead of air tank, and 
	a $1.8K investment in, what is called in the industry, a 
	"hydro-frac".  (An Oil Industry technique for opening up cracks
	in rock)

	The problems that lead to all this expense are too many to elaborate 
	on here.  My contributions to this note are two: 

	The increased capacity is due to the hydro-frac substantially
	opening up the vein(s) of water.

	How did we determine the flow rate?  The well company placed a
	"test-head" on the top of the well when all this was finished.  
	They let the pump run for 24hrs (to allow the well to become 
	fully pumped down.  What comes out after that is exactly what is 
	being supplied from the aquifer (sp).  

	It is doubtful that you will burn out your motor, because it is 
	beneath the pump and therefore is never left without water around 
	it.  The heat will be conducted thru the water and if need be to 
	the surrounding ledge.

				
					Bruce

					Who now enjoys watering his lawn!

    we just dug a well (late last year) at our home in Vermont.  The rate
    of flow was determined (roughly) by pumping the well dry (in our case,
    that took about 1.5 hours of pumping at several hundred gallons per
    hour, and then measuring the time for the well to fill up.  you must
    calculate the holding capacity for your well, then simple arithmetic
    will give you the approximate yield.  If you have a well yielding 1.5
    gallons per minute, you probably have more than enough water for normal
    households.  
    
    tony

    If my memory is right, the usual minimum is 3 gal/min and you aim for 5
    gal/min.  With anything less that 3 g/m you start to have to build in
    extra storage or ration water usage.  Think of maximum use.  How much
    to wash the car or water the lawn, draw bath water, and wash clothes? 
    To do all that plus have water available for drinking you need to have
    a good well.  
    
    When you can only get the 1.5 g/m you have to build up the storage
    capacity.  The most expensive, but probably the best from a water
    quality point of view is to have a deep and large diameter well.  This
    provides a natural collection point for the pump to access.  In
    addition you can add large storage tanks.  Since pumps usually pump
    much faster than 1.5 g/m you need to build in a recovery timer so that
    the pump will cut off and on until the storage tank is full.  My
    in-laws are in the water well business in New York, and I have seen
    them use both techniques.

    
    
     Every house I bought in Massachusetts which used a well, needed to
    have a min of 5 Gal/per min. I think the lender required this and
    I also believe that it was or was soon to be state law.
    
    
     Bob

Shucks, everytime I get in my car, I just feeeeeeel safer when I cross the 
border into Massachusetts, knowing they go alllll them laws to protect me.

    You might consider sending your observation to the Manchester Union
    Leader.
    It's pretty well know for publishing trash.

    Why? Nackey says the same thing at least one a month in her
    editorials.

    I have another well/tank question.
    
    Two weeks ago the lines coming into my house were struck by lightning.
    It blew my vcr, tripped all the breakers and messed up my well.  I had
    to let all the faucets run for 6+ hours to clear the water up.  Since
    that time, my pressure is only 2/3 of what it use to be.  The past few
    days the water out of the kitchen faucet pulsates (high pressure/low
    pressure).
    
    I called the company who originally installed the well/tank 5 1/2 yrs
    ago.  He said my tank is gone and it'll cost $350 to have a new one
    installed.  Of course the old tank was only guaranteed for 5 years.  He
    also said he doubts it's related to the lightning.
    
    Is that all a tank lasts - 5 years?  Is $350 reasonable?  How do I tell
    if the tank is really gone?
    
    Thanks for any advice/feedback.
    Kathy

    re: .18
    It sounds more likely to me that the lightning fried the pressure switch 
    that turns the pump on and off.  The switch is set up so it turns on
    at, say, 30 pounds and turns off at 50 pounds.  I can imagine that the
    lightning did it in so it turns on and off at a lower setting and with
    little or no pressure differential.  It may be down around 0, so you
    get pump pressure/no pump pressure alternating.
    At least, I'd check on that first.  You probably have a pressure gauge
    on the tank somewhere.  Turn on a faucet and watch the gauge.  It
    should start at 50 lbs or so, slowly drop to about 30, then the
    pump should come on so the gauge climbs back to 50 again.
    If the pressure drop is rapid from 50 to 30 (or whatever the numbers
    are) but the numbers are in the right range, then the tank may be 
    waterlogged (the air cushion in it may be gone).  This can be fixed,
    at least temporarily, by pumping air back into the tank. If the numbers are
    down around 5-25 or something, then I'd look at the pressure switch.
    
    I think I'd call another pump outfit for an opinion before spending
    $350 for a new tank.  5 years seems like an awfully short time, if
    it's any kind of quality brand at all.  I've got a Gould that is 9
    years old and doing just fine.  Of course, it depends in part on what
    your water is like, but I wouldn't expect a tank to go in 5 years.

    Thanks, Steve.
    
    I did turn the water on last p.m. and watch the guage - the entire time
    I was watching it stayed at 40. However, when I went back upstairs
    something "kicked-in" and I all of a sudden got tremendous pressure
    (like I use to) out of the faucet.  I'll try it again tonight.
    
    I will call another company for a second opinion.  
    
    Thanks,
    kathy

    Re .18
    
    Keep in mind that your homeowner's insurance will cover the cost
    of repair of the well pressure switch if it was indeed caused by
    a lightning strike.
    
    PBM
    

    Can they tell that it was from lightning?  I'm convinced it is, as I
    didn't have any problems at all til the strike, then my water was
    disgustingly orange.  After running it for a few hrs it turned an aqua
    color (which had the equivalent of rock dust on the bottom after
    settling).  It took 6 hrs to get it decent and then still stayed cloudy
    for about a week.
    
    Yet the well guy said he doubted that's what it was from (but he has
    not yet been out to check).
    

    I doubt that you will get any objection from your insurance company
    if you submit all lightning-strike-related claims at one time:
    the water system, the VCR - if you have one, check your garage
    door opener, your microwave oven controls, your furnace thermostats,
    your stereo, telephone answering machine - any electronic or
    electrical device.
    
    PBM
    

Could it be some sort of obstruction?  You seem to have had a great deal
of sediment in your water.  Some of it may be occluding a pipe or valve
or something in the system.  Is the problem noticeable at all faucets?
Then it is unlikely to be an obstruction unless it is at the source. (the
tank perhaps?)

Stan

    More info...
    
    This a.m. I turned the faucet on, ran down and watched the guage.
    It initially read about 20+ and proceeded to climb slowly to about 50,
    at which time I heard a click (pump turning on?), then the pressure
    very slowly started dropping.  When I went back upstairs I had terrific
    pressure coming out of the faucet.
    
    When is the pump suppose to kick in?  
    
    The well guy is coming out tomorrow.
    

    While the pressure was climbing, the pump was running. The click
    you heard would be the pump turning *off*. What you describe here
    sounds normal. If you're getting insufficient pressure sometime,
    the question may be whether the pump turns *on* at the right time.
    Normally the pump will fill the pressure tank until the air in the
    tank is pressurized to about 50psi, then shut off (as you
    observed). As you draw water from the tank, the pressure will drop
    until it's around 20-30 psi at which point the pump should turn on
    again. Does it ever go lower than that?

    re: .25
    Sounds about right; the click at 50 psi was the pump turning OFF;
    it must have turned on before you got there (down around 20 psi).
    If the pressure gets too low before the pump comes on, you can 
    adjust the pressure switch so the pump comes on at a higher pressure 
    (at 30 psi instead of 20 psi, perhaps).  It sounds though as though
    the pressure switch is working properly.
    So do you still have a problem, or has it cured itself?
    
    re: .24
    Good point about the dirt; the aerator screen on the faucet can
    get clogged and make it look like low water pressure.
    

    I have cleaned the screen on the faucet.  I have 1/2 the pressure of
    what I use to for about the first minute - during this time, the water
    kinda pulsates out of the faucet.  After about a minute all of a
    sudden the pressure doubles then it's fine til I shut it off and turn
    it back on again.
    
    It sounds like maybe the pressure switch just needs adjusting?  I'm not
    sure what point it's clicking on - by the time I get there I think the
    pump is already on and that's between 20-30 psi.
    
    Are there any screens in the tank or pump that may need to be cleaned
    due to all that sediment?
    
    Thanks,
    Kathy

    Doesn't sound like a pressure switch problem. Did you say if it was
    just one faucet, or all of them?
    
    Edd

    Try turning on the water, then staying at the pressure gauge and 
    watching the complete cycle of pressure drop, pump on, pressure 
    rise, pump off, pressure drop, pump on,... a few times.
    
    The pump may just be coming on at too low a pressure.  It doesn't
    really sound like an obstruction to me.  Hard to tell though. 

        
        I was told that the pressure range should be between 40 and 60
        psi. Ratings with shower heads and sprinklers confirm this. The
        jerk who installed mine had it set way to low. I re-adjusted it
        myself. It is just two simple screw adjustments to set the cutoff
        point and delta. Do be careful, because inside the box there is
        live 220v.
        
        Now my pressure is great until the screen in front of the iron
        filter clogs up. With watering a new lawn, that happens once a
        week :-(

    My well is set for turning on at 20psi and off at 40psi.
    I have never encountered any problems or noticeable changes in flow.
    Well, except the one time when I was filling the washing machine while
    running the dishwasher, wife in the shower and watering the lawn.  
    I don't think the 20-40 or 20-50 psi range would cause any problems.
    
    (Maybe the place to look would be at the air bladder charge to the 
    water tank?  Isn't this what regulates (smooths out) the water
    pressure?)	

      Everything  here is speculation.  Without "hands-on" inspection no
      one can tell what your situation is.

      That said, here are my ideas.

      (1)  Our  system was originally set for ~20-40 PSI.  When our pump
      failed the original installer wasn't available, so we had the pump
      replaced by another company. There were very surprised that it was
      set that low. After consulting with me they re-set it to 40-60PSI.
      Although  I  had not recognized this as a problem before, I surely
      recognized the improvement with the higher pressure. Based on this
      I  would  recommend  a  setting  of  at least 30-50 and preferably
      40-60.

      (2)  It does seem unlikely that the bladder in you air tank is bad
      after only five years. It also seems strange that this would cause
      the sort of pulsation that you describe. I'd expect simply a total
      failure to provide pressure with the pump not running, or maybe an
      inability  to build up pressure at all.  While it could be the air
      tank -- I'm no water well expert! -- it sounds to me more like and
      obstruction  somewhere in you system.  Maybe the lightning knocked
      something loose?  When the pressure is high enough water gets  by;
      when its lower you get pulsation.

      Is  there  a hose bib -- i.e. a facet with hose threads -- at your
      air tank?  If so, connect a hose to it and run the hose to a drain
      or  outside.   Turn  on  the hose and see if it has good, constant
      pressure.  If it does NOT, then the problem is in  the  air  tank,
      pump or controls.  If the hose has good constant pressure, then it
      is likely that the problem is an obstruction in your pipes. If all
      of  your  facets  have  the  same problem, then the obstruction is
      probably in one of the main pipes  in  the  basement,  maybe  real
      close to the air tank.  How do you find it?  Short of taking pipes
      apart and checking them I don't have an  answer.   I  suppose  you
      could probe straight lengths with a stiff wire. I think the answer
      is that finding an obstruction can be a real pain. (read messy and
      expensive.)

    A broken diaphragm in the air tank, resulting in a loss of the
    pre-charge will cause the pressure switch to cycle the pump VERY
    quickly, on the order of seconds.
    
    A SWAG - Could there be a length of pipe with trapped air in it
    someplace in the system? Conceivably the air column could compress
    and expand under the relatively low pressure of a system where the PSI
    is about to kick the pump on. Once the pump kicks in, the pressure
    would be high enough to keep the column compressed...
    
    A rarely used faucet feed seems like a likely culprit...
    
    Edd

        another shot in the dark...
        
        If you fill a glass with water, is it clear, or cloudy then
        clearing in a minute or so. If the latter (kind of like
        carbonated), then you have gasses disolved in your water. We have
        methane in ours, which sometimes causes sputtering. Some of our
        neighbors have high enough methane levels that they can light
        their faucets!

And yet another shot in the dark... 
        
You could have a problem IN the well such as a split pipe. While the
pump was running, you'd could have variations in pressure. Once your
house system gets up to pressure, the pump would shut off and then the
pressure would be more consistant. 

Or a loose wire at the pump. As the pump runs it could be making and
breaking a connection causing the problem. There's alot of torque with
a submerged well pump. 

Either one of these problems could have been induced or aggravated by
the lighting. 

Charly

    I had a similar problem with pulsing and low pressure.  I have a
    whole house filter that became clogged and created low pressure.
    I just purchased the house and the previous owner apparently stopped
    maintaining the filter.  I replaced the filter, but found little
    difference.  Apparently there is a catch 22 when the filter is clogged.
    Sediment (maybe caused by your lighting strike) apparently lies
    in the bottom of the horizontal pipes and collects there because
    of the low pressure.  When the filter is replaced the initial high
    pressure forces some of this sediment to the filter, which in turn
    clogs again, creating the impression that the filter replacement
    did not contribute to solving the problem.  I solved my problem
    by removing the filter, replaced the filter housing, opened both
    of my outside faucets ( I know should not filter outside water,
    but I just bought the house), turned the filter shutoff back on
    and watched a large amount of sediment/rust (house is on the Cape)
    clear through the filter housing.  When it appeared clear a minute
     or so, I replaced the filter and have excellent pressure.  I will
    make this procedure part of the normal filter replacement process.
    I also have a question as to how often I should have to replace
    the filter element as measured by you experienced "well folks".
    I know "when pressure is decreased", but, I'm looking for a ballpark
    figure if for no other reason to compare the condition of my well
    with others.   I

    Re .37
    
    We have a whole-house, double-cartridge sediment filter.  We use
    about 700 gallons/week.  We replace the filter every three months.
    I began with monthly, tried every two months, now I'm up to three.
    The filter is obviously black with trapped sediment and brown/red
    with oxidized iron, but the pressure remains high and the filter is
    apparently still functional after three months.
	
    PBM

    re: a few of the previous replies
    
    Never thought of filtering the water.  We draw water (which seems to be
    excessively SOFT to me) from a dug well about 150 ft from our home.  My
    pump/air tank is located in the cellar, and we normally cycle pressure
    at 20/40 psi (I'll raise it a bit when I'm thru installing the rest of
    the plumbing, some day)... the inlet pipe is 1", passing thru the
    cellar wall, then up across the ceiling into an insulated "warm room"
    where most of the plumbing is located.  
    
    What sort of "things" are addressed by filters?  My water is clear, and
    plenteous... is there some sort of indicator to look for which would
    point to needing any kind of filter?  Are there any safety related
    issues?
    
    tony (who is nearly totally ignorant about wells and such)