Conference 7.286::home_work

    Consumer reports discussed them a couple a months ago.  If I remember
    correctly, they panned them as not hot enough and too expensive
    to run.  See the article to be sure.

at the end, that should have read "on the other hand it's nice because of the 
unlimited supply"

Paul

Re: .1

As usual Consumer Reports is wrong.  We have a Paloma, and taking their
calculations, we should be using 50% more LP gas than we do for the Paloma
*and* the gas dryer. 

Re: .2

Limited flow is a problem for two reasons:  As mentioned, if somebody is
taking a shower, you'd better not try to get any hot water anywhere else. 
You'll be cursed all morning.  It also takes a hell of a long time to fill
up a bathtub or washing machine. 

You do get "unlimited" hot water and you do save a lot in costs.

Consumer Reports is correct in stating that the Paloma will heat to 140 
degrees. 

When we bought our Paloma, it was called a "constant flow" model, which not
only meant you were limited in the maximum flow rate, but also, it meant you
*had* to turn on the water to a certain preset level to get the hot water to
kick on at all.  That's often more water than you really want.  The thing
really does the wrong thing if you have single-handle faucets: it's hard to
know at which angle the Paloma will turn on. And when the thing kicks in and
shuts off, you get water that can't make up its mind about whether it should
be hot or cold.  That gets on my nerves. 

Recommendation: Paloma has recently come out with a model that has a
variable flow rate for about the same cost.  That's what the newer units in
Europe have. Make sure you get one of those if you get anything at all.  The 
problems will still be there, but they'll be much less pronounced. 

Would I get another?  Dunno.  But friends were recently complaining that 
once the kids have their showers, all the hot water's gone...

Alex

    I took a look at the Consumer Reports issue last night, and they
    said that they did not recommend replacing an existing gas water
    heater with an instantaneous water heater, due the the higher cost
    of the unit - but if the water heater had to be replaced anyway, the
    future savings could justify the unit...  don mac

    These on-demand heaters have been around for quite a while. I lived
    in a house in Berkeley, CA, with a Ruud demand heater that was probably
    50 or 60 years old. It was cast iron, sat on the floor, and was
    about 4 feet high and a foot in diameter. Inside was tubing spiraled
    into a pancake. It worked just fine (with the usual limited flow
    problems). An old plumber I spoke regarded them highly and told
    me not to get rid of it.

    FIRST OF ALL -- THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE.  MY ORIGINAL NOTE NEEDED
    A BIT OF CLARIFICATION -- I HAVE AN (UNFORTUNATELY) ALL ELECTRIC
    HOUSE AND MY INTENT WAS TO PUT THE "SMALL" IN-LINE UNITS IN THE
    UPSTAIRS MASTER BATH AND THE DOWN STAIRS SHOWER STALL BATH.  AS
    LUCK WOULD HAVE IT, I RECEIVED LITERATURE FROM THE THERMAL CORP.
    ON THE EVE THAT I POSED MY QUESTIONS.
    
    AGAIN THANKS.  FROM THE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES I READ, I BELIEVE
    I WILL "GIVE IT A TRY."
    
    
    
    
    "IRISH"
    
    

    The April 86 issue of Popular Science has a discussion about tankless
    h.w. heaters.
    
    I remember as a kid we had one (we always called it an instantaneous
    heater).  It looked like a pot belly stove with about 30-40 feet
    of copper pipe coiled up inside it and several large gas jets in
    the bottom.  The water motor actuated the gas valve whenever a small
    amount of water was drawn from the hot water tap.  It worked great
    and we never were without h.w.  One day, the water motor broke so
    my dad upgraded(?) to a tank type.
    

re:.7

If you are thinking of installing single Thermar electric units in each of the
bathrooms mentioned, I hope that neither of them has a tub or shower.  As 
mentioned before, the Thermar gas unit provides about the minimum amount of hot 
water required for a shower, and it produces about 2 gallons per minute.  The 
Thermar electric units produce about .7 gallons a minute.  You can put up to 
three of them in series to produce 2.1 gal/min, but I assume that would be too 
expensive.  .7 gal/min will be fine for a sink, but I wouldn't want to take a 
shower or fill a tub with it.

Paul

    
    I have been looking at tank less heaters also for some time since
    I just bought a house and it has a "RENTED ELECTRIC" 80 gallon
    water tank. This is obviously rediculous and it has to go. The
    most important issue I thought in consumer report was their basis
    of converting.  
    
    	If you have an electric heater they recommend definitly trashing
    this baby. The fow of money went something like this.
    
    	1. oil tank		cheapest
    	2. gas tank		second  
    	3. lp gas		third
    
    	4. electric
    
    	What stood out was that electric per year is over 400. That
    not a rental included.  The oil machine is the cheapest but life
    expectancy is low. 
    
    	At sommerville l. they have a  AQUA-STAR FOR 399. I propably
    will go with a 40 gallon lp gas model. I figure with a family of
    4 I need less haasles. If I was single, I would tank less.
    
    							AL
    

    Since I have an old 3' high gas heated tank water heater, I'll go
    with the tankless and not have to break a new hole in the foundation
    for chimney access. The tankless will fit nicely against the wall
    and saves space over the currently available high rise tank types.
    

I lived in an apartment house that had one water heater for 17
apartments. It worked fine; enough hot water 95% of the time, and
enough flow (barely). The landlord decided to "save money" by
converting to electric tankless heaters in each unit. He had a
deal with a distributor of Brazilian units (Corona). He put in
two units in series (I forget the wattage) for two sinks and a
tub/shower. It was awful. The water from the one-handle faucet was
either scalding or cold, no in-between, and when hot it flowed at
a fast trickle. It took a half hour to fill the tub (I timed it).
It's a good thing I prefer baths to showers because I know I
couldn't have gotten the right temp from the shower. 
  Part of the problem is that these apartments are in the country
and have their own well. The pressure was less than water-works
pressure.
  I realize this notesfile is not oriented toward apartments, but
if you rent and you landlord says he is converting to tankless
water heaters, you could be in for a lot of trouble. This could
happen in condos too if there is one water heater for several units.
  In a retrofit the usual practice is to disconnect the hot water
piping from the basement to the rooms and feed the tankless heaters
from the cold water line. The problem with this is that you are now
trying to get twice as much water from the same size pipe. This
means that the pressure goes down and if someone turns on a cold
water faucet the hot water pressure is pulled down more than it
would be with separate hot and cold water piping. This could happen
in a single family house too. The solution is in a retrofit to
leave the hot water piping in place and use it to feed the tankless
heaters, and in a new house to use larger diameter pipes. 
  Another consideration that hasn't been mentioned in this topic is
that to get the same heating effect from a tankless heater requires
a higher wattage than an electric tank. This is because an elec-
tric tank can spread out power usage over time. Therefore you might
not have enough capacity in your electric service entrance to handle
the extra power used by a tankless heater. Note that I am talking
power, not energy. A tankless heater uses less ENERGY than a tank
because it runs less (In case you don't know, energy is power X time.)

Yup, those suckers sure eat up the juice.  The Thermar units heat only .7 
gal/min, so you need three of them in series to supply an average house.  EACH
of them requires its own *40 amp* breaker.  That means you'll be drawing 120 
amps whenever you're heating water.

Now THAT will dim your lights!

Paul

    Why not try an LPG unit.  They don't use much in the way of amps
    at all.  The only electric part of them is the ignition.  They can
    heat approximately 2-3 gpm.  You still have the one shower at a
    time limitation, but from what I've heard they are good if you can
    live with that limitation.  We are considering one of these units
    and have been looking for the best price/capability combination.
    In NH, I want to stay off of electric as much as I can to minimize
    any effects that Seabrook might have on my future electric bills.
    
    bb
    

    
        Are there any Tankless Hot Water Systems installed by anyone?
    I have been contemplating the move to a tankless system too long
    and will be forced to do something sonn with Seabrook going online
    soon.
    
        I first experienced them in Europe and no one had any complaints
    about them. In fact, was hard pressed to find tank systems anywhere
    I went except chain hotels.
    
        My 30 gallon 110V heater works fine for even 4 people and 
    dishes and laundry, but getting rid of an electric stove and
    hotwater and more flourescent lighting are some of my specific
    electric goals.     
    
    Thanks 
    
    grg

I believe Consumer Reports did an article on them within the last year

    George,
    
    Could you be more specific?  Are you interested in a standalone
    water heater or the more customary tankless system that is part
    of an oil/gas furnace?  I have had very good luck with the latter
    in several homes that I have lived in.  
    
    sn

    If your interested.... I've got a copy of the January '86 issue
    of Consumer Reports' evaluation of tankless hot water systems.  I 
    wouldn't base my final decision on CR's report, but it may provide
    some good background on cost and system limitations.
    
    Send me mail at PLANET if you want a copy.  
    
    Jim.  

    Options (as I see it):
    
    1) So-called tankless--connected to furnace (usually FHW or steam): two
    types--external and internal, which, as expected, are located outside
    or inside the furnace boiler.  Both actually involve a small (5 gallon
    or so) tank which is heated by transfer via pipes from the furnace. In
    each case, the furnace must (frequently) fire up in order to maintain a
    certain temperature of hot water.  You can use a timer to control which
    hours you have hot water.   Since the 5 gallons is often not enough for
    a shower, wash, etc, the furnace must fire up to continue making water.
    When new, the heat transfer is efficient, but that may go down over
    time. The more restricted the water flow, the more likely that water
    will be heated fast enough.  The idea behind these systems is that in
    the winter, when the furnace is already hot, and you are already losing
    furnace heat in the basement, heating up water with spare heat makes
    sense.  With lower house temperatures today, the idea is more
    questionable. We got rid of ours because we wasted gallons and gallons
    of oil getting hot water in the summer, even with a timer attached. 
    
    2) True tankless (e.g. Paloma).  Separate unit which fires up to
    make hot water on demand and has *no* tank at all.  Basically work
    on a constant flow rate principle (although recent European models
    have some variable flow rate capability).  These units will produce
    hot water until you run out of gas.  However, (1) due to the flow
    rate limit, if somebody is taking a shower, nobody else had better
    ask for hot water, and (2) in my experience, the sensing mechanism
    can get crudded up with sediment requiring cleaning twice a year
    (otherwise the thing fires up only after a few seconds delay, long
    enough to entirely cool down the pipes).
    
    3) Boilermate.  Used with FHW systems with multiple zones.  It is
    essentially another zone into a huge (40 gal or more) heavily insulated
    tank with a thermostat.  When the tank cools down, it asks the furnace
    to fire up and send hot water through the Boilermate zone, thus heating
    up the boilermate.  Apparently very efficient, since it only asks for
    the furnace to fire up no more often than a normal water heater would
    ask its burner to fire up, and oil water heaters are supposed to be
    more efficient than gas ones.  Oil water heaters are expen$ive, and the
    loses in the summer (heating the furnace and the pipes to the
    Boilermate) are essentially counterbalanced by the advantages (of an
    already warm furnace) in the winter along with the greater efficiency
    of oil. 
            
    I currently have a Paloma (which, by the way is *much* more efficient
    than Consumer Reports would predict).  I am not entirely happy with
    the (true) tankless concept (for the reasons stated above), but they
    are *much* better than the furnace "tankless" units.  When my new
    furnace was installed, I had them add the valves for a 4th zone;
    when the Paloma bites the dust I plan to get a Boilermate.
    
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Alex
    

[I have rewritten this reply of 31-OCT to include more Amtrol Boilermate info.]

    RE: .4
    
    I implied that the Boilermate is only used with oil furnaces.  It can
    be used with gas furnaces as well.  While gas water heaters are 
    relatively inexpensive as compared to oil ones, the advertising 
    for the Amtrol unit even suggests that it is a reasonable choice 
    with gas also.  
    
    Amtrol charts:
    
    Tankless coils  		1.5-2.0 gals/day
    Electric heater		19-22 kwh/day
    Oil-fired heater		.75-1.0 gals/day
    Gas-fired heater		.85-1.2 therms/day
    Boilermate			.43 gals/day
    
    Based on 60 gal/day 90 degree rise in water temp.
    
    --------------------

    The following operating-life savings are based on 15-year life of
    Amtrol, 60 gal/day use, $.90/therm for gas and $1.20/gal for oil. It
    is assumed that two new gas units (@$400 including installation) and
    three new oil units (@$800 including installation) would be needed.
    But note that even not including any replacement costs, the Amtrol
    is way ahead.  (And most people would agree that at least one
    replacement would be needed.) 
    
    Gas fired:  fuel (5310.75) + replacement (800)   = 6110.75 
    Oil fired:  fuel (5091.75) + replacement  (2400) = 7491.75 
    Amtrol:	fuel (3613.50) + replacement (0)     = 3613.75 

    So while the Boilermate is aimed at is aimed at the high cost of
    oil-fired units, it is even attractive for gas. 
    
    Amtrol, by the way, does not include their estimated  $1000 initial
    installation cost in the above figures (you need a new zone and you
    need to buy and install the Amtrol) 

    In my case, my Paloma is an LP gas version.  So converting to a
    Boilermate makes sense for me (LP gas is expensive).  If I had
    natural gas, I would consider replacing replace the Paloma with a
    variable-flow-rate Paloma, if I could solve the sediment problem,
    but I think the Boilermate would end up being more attractive. 
    
    Alex 

    All this talk about heating water for domestic use is interesting.
    I can't remember exactly why I was swayed toward an "Everhot All-Copper"
    separate oil fired unit vs. the boilermate when I made my decision
    last winter. But I considered the following:
                                                                 
         * my separate oil-fired unit is totally independant of the boiler
    
    I don't have to listen to the boiler firing everytime I require
    hot water and the boiler is off all summer
     
         * no extra zone is required like for the boilermate
                 
             - remember, an additional zone requires
    
                          > a switching relay
                          > a flow check
                          > a circulator

     I also remember something about the heat transfer #'s for the separate
     oil-fired unit vs. that of the boilermate but I can't be quoted.
    All and all the arguments for the boilermate are well taken, I guess
    one would have to do the cost analysis and maybe take a peek at
    the warrantys. My total cost for the Everhot All-Copper unit was $919
    installed. I understand that Everhot just had a slight price increase.
      
    Mark
    

RE: < Note 496.5 by ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn, ZKO" >
    
>>    Amtrol charts:
>>    
>>    Tankless coils  		1.5-2.0 gals/day
>>    Electric heater		19-22 kwh/day
>>    Oil-fired heater		.75-1.0 gals/day
>>    Gas-fired heater		.85-1.2 therms/day
>>    Boilermate		.43 gals/day
>>    
>>    Based on 60 gal/day 90 degree rise in water temp.
    
    This data suggests that the efficiency of a boiler/Boilermate setup
    is twice as good as that of an oil-fired heater burning the same fuel.
    Can you explain how that might happen, please?

    Also, a previous note or reply gave conversion factors for oil to
    BTU and KWH to BTU.  I use LP gas to heat hot water and it is sold
    in gallons.  Can anyone supply the conversion factor for gallons
    of LP gas to BTU?  And, to complete our databank:  therms (natural
    gas) to BTU, ton of coal BTU, cord of hardwood to BTU.

    PL

    I am not sure about LP, but I have info for the others.

     Anthracite coal    - 21,680,000 BTUs/Ton
     Seasoned red oak   - 13,845,000 BTUs/Cord
     Natural gas        -      1,021 BTUs/Cubic foot

    These numbers came from Ask The Globe about a year ago.


    Mark

    

     I take exception with the numbers for 1 cord of red oak
        They should be around 22,000,000
    
    					Kenny

    You're right - the Sunset book on Wood Stoves indicates 21,000,000
    for red oak and 23,000,000 for white oak.
    
    Mark
    

    I'm am going to purchase an oil-fired water heater. What brand
    should I purchase and what should I expect to pay ?
    
    thanks,
    
    Kevin

   " EverHot All Copper" They're in Boston last time I knew. They offer
    offer a glass-lined model & an all copper model (~$175. > glass-lined)
    They cost is in the area of $900-$1100 dollars and believe they
    carry a super warranty. My contractor highly recommended this brand.
    I'll check my literature tonight and post their # tomorrow. They
    have distributers in many states.
    

    A stand-alone oil fired hot water heater is in the area of $1200.
    As for what brand to buy, the best advice is to buy the one that
    your oil company likes best/is most familiar with.
    
    As an aside, expect your home insurance to rise when you add another
    oil burner to your basement (presuming you currently heat with oil).
    If you do heat with oil and the hot water is supplied "off system,"
    I guess you are unsatisfied with the amount.  If so, you might
    consider using your existing burner to feed hot water to a thermos
    like tank.  That way, you get 40, 50, or more gallons of very hot
    water rather than the standard 3 to 5 from the coils.  These tanks
    go for around $800 installed, but you retain a single risk factor.
    

    Reply .2 has the correct idea, on the basis of cost, maintenance, and 
    and performance. The unit is insulated with extruded polystyrene
    foam and can keep your water hot up to 10 hours without needing to be
    reheated (As long as you don't use any during that period). This 
    means that you burn less oil. Anything insulated with fiberglass
    can't outperform this.
    
    It has a heat exchanger in it that transfers the heat from your
    existing boiler. There is no boiler in the storage unit, so it never 
    needs to be cleaned or adjusted. 
    
    I couldn't tell you what the cost might be, but it must be at least 
    a couple hundred dollars less than the unit you are presently considering.
    We installed ours four years ago, and have been very pleased.
    
    The one modification I am about to make is to add a timer to it. This
    way it will never call for heat in the middle of the night.
    
    The unit I have is called BOILER MATE, I beleive the manufacturer
    is AMTROL. 

    sd

    RE: .2  > You might consider using your existing burner to feed
            > hot water to a thermos-like tank. That way, you get 40,
            > 50, or more gallons of very hot water rather than the
            > standard 3 to 5 from the coils.

    ?? What do you mean thermos-like tank? The existing system is a
    "closed loop". The water that runs through the pipes to heat the
    house stays there all the time. The burner that resides on the
    boiler cannot be jury-rigged to service a separate tank unless
    it is run off the boiler. e.g. Boilermate etc.
    
    This involves heat transfer through coils which is not the same
    as heating the water directly in a separate oil-fired unit. 

    I have no solid arguement against the Boilermate but consider the 
    following:
    
       * The Boilermate requires that the boiler (main heating unit)
         run and maintain a minimum boiler temperature at all times
         for domestic hot water, even in the summer months where
         ordinarily the boiler wouldn't run at all.
    
       * By design the existing boiler's burner is fitted with the appropriate
         oil nozzle for maximum efficiency. With the separate oil-fired
         unit the nozzle is smaller (as much as .35 GPH) than that on
         the boiler, and no additional heat transfer is involved i.e.
         heating the water in some coils which are emersed in the
         Boilermate which heat the water in this tank. There is some
         loss during the heat transfer here.
    
       * Of course with the separate oil-fired unit, you do have that
         additional burner to maintain.
     
  

                             
    One manufacture of an oil-fired hot water unit:
    
                           Everhot All Copper
                          
                           5 Appleton Street
    
                           Boston, Mass. 02117   

                           (617) 924-3877  

From note .4:

>           * The Boilermate requires that the boiler (main heating unit)
>         run and maintain a minimum boiler temperature at all times
>         for domestic hot water, even in the summer months where
>         ordinarily the boiler wouldn't run at all.
    
    Not true at all. A Boiler Mate does not keep the boiler of the furnace 
    at mininum temperature because the boiler mate has its own thermostat 
    and TURNS ON the furnace only when it needs more heat.
    
    Like I wrote in my .3 note the Boiler Mate will not call for heat
    for ten+ hours if none is used. Meanwhile your furnace has been
    esentially shut off for ten+ hours, it does not keep any mininum
    temperature. In fact, the furnace temperature is the ambient temperature
    much of the time in the summer for our system.
    
    As for transfer losses they are minimal.

    Like I wrote in note .3 the thermal insulation that .4 system provides
    can not match extruded polystyrene, and .4 system will have to come on 
    many more times to maintain temperature.
    
sd    

    Perhaps I've confused the boilermates' operation with that of a
    Tankless Boiler where you have both a high and low limit setting.
    
    Still, I believe that the Boilermate would have trouble supplying
    ample hot water for say....2-3 showers back to back because of the
    recovery time required.
    
    Anyone else care to comment....

    Boiler Mate capacity is 41 gallons, which is a lot of hot water.
    And don't forget that the burner will come back on at some point
    and keep it hot.

    We have never had a problem with running out. In fact, one of the
    reasons I purchased it was to insure that we didn't run out of hot
    water. You can look at as being a reservoir for hot water.
    
    The other big reason was solving the 'keeping boiler at minimum 
    temperature' problem. In the winter that is not much of a problem,
    but in the spring, summer and fall where the boiler isn't being
    run to heat the house, keeping it a minimum temp is a waste.

    
    sd

    Discussions about a Boilermate and an Everhot (oil-fired hot water
    heaters) are interesting and almost convincing.  What about longevity?
    How long are the warrantees on the tanks?  Do I buy another tank and/or
    system every ten years?

    See note 496.13 about our experiences with a Paloma.

    
    Do these tankless hotwater heaters come in Electric. My house is
    total electric. In order to use a gas model it would cost me thousands
    of dollars. 
    
    I read an article in Popular Science about this new kind of tankless
    hotwater heater. Here is how it works.
    
    You hook one up to every faucet you have that you want hot water
    out of. If you have 4 faucets then you hook up 4 heater units. It
    is much smaller then the conventional tankless heater (about 6"
    square). The input to the unit is only the water pipe. The
    faucets control the temperature the unit will put out. If you want
    only lukewarm water then the unit will only heat the water up a
    little (more if you are at a high water preassure). 
    This system is very sofisticated. Very efficient though.  
   

Yes, they do come in electric, but I wouldn't get all excited about them.  I'm 
aware of one brand (Thermar), and their heaters will only heat about 3/4 
gal/min.  To have enough for a shower, you have to run three of them in series.
And if you do that, then there's not much sense in having a separate one for 
each other hot water faucet.  Also be aware that each one of these heaters 
takes it's own 220v 40amp breaker.  So to run a shower you'd be drawing a good
100 amps.

Paul

Does your "all electric" house preclude propane?  (Do you get reduced 
rates because you are all electric?)  Anything is cheaper than electric 
hot water heaters and dryers.  

Alex

    
    It wouldn't be worth it for me to go to propane or gas or oil. The
    cost of the plumbing, tank etc would far out weigh the savings of
    a hot water heater. I won't be able to use the propane for anything
    else except the hot water heater, because I don't have any ducts
    in the house to run central heating. I already own a electric dryer
    and most of the time we hang our clothes out on the line. In the next 
    month or so I'll be putting in a wood burning stove for my heating.
    
 

Re: .17

Wrong!  We found it only cost $60 when we put in propane for our gas
dryer that we moved here with.  The Sears salesman suggested that we
check on the price of installing propane before we purchased the
electric dryer we were about to buy.  Of course, the cost of a flue for
a hot water heater could be a bit more if you don't have one.  But the
extra cost of electric every year is measured in *hundreds* of dollars.
And unless you have lots of winter clothes hanging room, you could pay
for a dryer in a few years for the difference. 

> Of course, the cost of a flue for
> a hot water heater could be a bit more if you don't have one.  

You can get water heaters that vent directly through a combustible wall.  They 
have a double walled pipe, and the heater draws its intake air through the 
outer section and exhausts through the middle.

Paul

    .18
    
    I can't get a propane system for my house (city ordinance). I can
    get in natural gas (at a cost of $2700 Minimum). $2700 does not
    justify me getting in gas to heat my hot water heater. My average
    hot water heating bill is $40 per month. That $60 to install a propane
    system didn't include the price of a hotwaterheater. 
    
    The cost of putting in a ducting system for central heating along
    with the gas heater is about $6000. This can be justified if I stay
    in the house for about 5 years (which I don't plan on doing). 
    
    I'd much rather spend about $3000 and have a chimney installed and
    get a woodburning stove. 
    

    	I know it's been a while since this note was used but this does
    seem to be the place for the questions and comments I have.
    	My wife and I have 2 Thermar electric heaters in series which
    supply our entire house with hot water.  At first I installed them
    according to directions which does limit the flow of water thru
    the heaters.  In order for the heater to work properly and give
    enough hot water you had to use the flow restrictor shower heads
    to restrict the water flow.  Problem is I hate those things.  So
    I opened all the valves to the heaters and put the old shower head
    back on.  When I take a shower I only turn the hot water on and
    I vary the heat by varying the flow with the faucet.  I do have
    a single handle control for the shower and this method effectivly
    makes controling the temp of the water alot easier.  You only move
    the handle up and down instead of up and down and back and forth.
    Now for the problem:
    We have well water.  As the pressure in the tank drops the pump
    kicks in and drives the pressure up again.  This results in varying
    pressure in the system and that means varying flow rates from the
    shower head and that means varying water temps from the heater (Got
    that?).  IE.  As the pressure drops the flow rate of water through
    the system drops.  This means that the heaters have more time to
    heat the water and correspondingly the water temp increases.  The
    exact opposite happens when the pump kicks in and the pressure goes
    up.  I have designed a solution but I'm having trouble finding a
    the needed equipment.  First I'm looking for a constant pressure
    water valve which can have the pressure adjusted.  I plan on putting
    it on the system so that I can have a constant pressure in the water
    system even though the pressure in the tank varies (I believe the
    current pressure varies between 40psi and 70psi.)  This will stop
    pressure variations in the system and that means that once I get
    the flow/temp adjusted in my shower I won't have to muck with it
    anymore. Ahhhhhhhh.  Second I'm looking for a tank to hold water
    with openings in the bottom and the top.  I plan on using this in
    line to allow the water stand in it before it goes to the heaters.
     By having the water in this tank it will increase somewhat in temp
    and when input into the heater it will be warmer.  (Meaning that the
    tanks won't have to work so hard to heat it up. Currently the water
    temp as it comes out of the ground is about 45 degrees.)  I plan
    on putting this tank between the hot/cold water split and the heaters
    themselves (so I still can count on ice cold water in the summer).
    
    	Can anyone help me?                          
    
    Rich

    It sounds like you need a pressure reducing valve. I just installed one
    to reduce the town water main pressure from over 100 psi to a constant
    50. These units sell for $40 - $60 depending on the inlet/outlet size
    (1/2, 3/4...) and wether or not you want the built in filter screen.

    They reduce the pressure and I would assume the result would be a
    constant as long as the inlet pressure was greater then or equal to the
    desired outlet pressure. The one that I have is ajustable from 25 to 75
    psi. 

    I got mine at Spag's and have seen them a Somerville lumber. Other
    fine Hardware and Plumbing stores should have them as well.

    Charly

    Does anyone manufacture a burner that is:
    
    1) Forced Hot Air.
    2) Also heats the hot water for the house.
    3) Runs on oil.
    
    This is what I have in my house currently. However, it is very old,
    about 40 years and I suspect it will die soon.
    
    Does anyone know of a manufacturer that still makes them ?
    
    thanks,
    kl 

	If your local oil-heat installers don't know, try looking
	in the Thomas Register.  Maybe 50 or 60 phone calls will
	scare up someone.

	How does your furnace keep from overheating the water
	in the winter, or overheating the house in the summer?

	Regards, Robert.

    Read an article last night about a unit made by "YUKON" . It is
    listed as having an efficiency of 95% using oil. I don't recall
    if it will heat water for the house . The unit is designed to vent
    outside by using small diameter PVC pipe . 
    	Will read the article again and post more info tomorrow.

    Just wondering why is it you want to go with the same kind of unit
    you have now (40 year old technology).  If it's space you are concerned
    about,  I have seen the 'tankless' hot water heating systems on
    the PBS 'This Old House' program which mount on the wall and only
    take up as much space as a large backpack.  The oil burning forced
    hot air furnaces are very compact these days two.
    
    Just curious,
    
    Jim
    

    You might what to think about going to two separate units. If you
    are having this much trouble find a combined unit what is going
    to happen when you need parts on some cold winter night?
    
    Nick

    
    I have just spent some major bucks to replace the heat exchanger
    in my tenant's tankless water heater.  I have a nice Weil-McLain
    boiler doing FHW duty.  The original installation had a 5 gpm heat
    exchanger put into the rear heater position on the boiler.  It worked
    fine for about 18 mos.  Then it just went downhill fast to where
    the poor tenants couldn'e even get a one minute shower.  We played
    with all the controls we could find with only marginal improvements.
    
    Finally, I had a second heating contractor come in, (upt to thenI
    was dealing with the original installer) who made two immediate
    comments.  First, the heat exchagner goes in the front on that boiler
    when it's used for FHW.  The rear position is for steam.  Second,
    the Groton, MA water (hard and high in iron) destroys the copper
    coil due to scaling.  The contractor thought we did average  to
    get two years life out of a marginal exchanger installation.
    
    I paid out a few hundred bucks and got a new 6 gpm heat exchange
    with all 3/4" lines (previously 1\2" connections) mounted in the
    right place for the boiler.  The results are good.  Water temperatures
    are now good and hot water pressure is much higher.  The 3/4" lines
    only run about 2 feet from the boiler and then it goes back to the
    1/2" size.
    
    Questions for class discussion:
    
    1. Did water quality kill my heat exchanger?
    2. Can I prevent deterioration of the new one?
    3. Did scaling happen on both the inside and outside of the heat
    exchanger pipes? (explaining pressure loss)
    4. What about the location of the exchanger on the boiler?
    5. Anyone else have similar experiences?
    

    OK, here are the reasons I want the same type of system:
    
       1) I want to use oil only, no gas, no electricity.
       2) I want one burner to maintain. If you have two burners
          do you need two flues ? Does your home insurance go up
          if you have two burners ? 
    
       I'm open to alternatives that involve oil.
    
       By the way, I'd like to point out that the 40 year old technology
       has lasted 40 years and is still going strong. I wish I had a
       time machine, I'd go back and get the exact same thing.

    Once upon a time there was a hot water heater in my parents FHA
    furnace.  The house is 25 years old.  A long time ago (about 15
    years), the hot water unit went.  Mom now has a standalone oil fired
    hot water heater standing beside the furnace, and venting into the
    same chimney.  It takes up a bit of room, but it works!
    
    ELaine

    I've had a similar  problem with the same boiler and I live in Acton.
    I wrote a reply on FHA vs. FHW and mentioned this, but I'll try
    to repeat it here.
    
    The water forms a scale on the inside of the coils in the heat
    exchanger and that forms a nice layer of insulation.  The result
    is a burst of hot water, followed by cool water.  I had the heating
    company flush it with acid, but the problem keep coming back. Finally,
    I put in the fittings and valves so that I could do it myself with
    little pain, but I had to do it frequently.
    
    A larger unit would help as there is more area for heat transfer
    to compensate for the scale.
    
    The key on location, they told me, was the location of the thermostat
    that turn on the furnace relative to the heat exchanger.  My thermostat
    mounted in the face plate of the heat exchanger so that it could
    sense hot water usage ASAP and start up.  That seemed to help it
    work better.
    
    doug
    

We had the same problem with a tankless in Andover, MA.  The crud ate 
up a tankless of the type described in .*.  Then we experimented with a 
Paloma gas-fired tankless.  We had to clean the crud out of that every 
half year as well, until it self-destructed. 

I think the only reliable answer is (1) get a regular hot water heater,
or (2) get a Boilermate.  With the boilermate, it is the heating system
water that is recirculated through the coils, so they don't get crudded
up as in a tankless.  And you can remove the coils and clean or replace
them if you need to.  It requires an extra zone (but I think includes
the circulator).  See fuller explanation elsewhere (see note 1111.1). 

Alex

    The Boilermate sounds like what I want to do when I replace my other
    aging monster furnace.  Since I don't have gas (although these problems
    sure give it to me) and I WON'T PUT IN ELECTRIC HOT WATER UNLESS
    CONGRESS ORDERS IT! (Groton's municipal electric company owns more
    than its fair share of Seabrook and they can charge for it prior
    to the plant coming on-line...), that sounds like my best solution.  
    I can then put a time clock on the water tank to shut it off at
    night when I don't take showers.
    
    I have also learned from discussions about using various acids to
    flush the scale from the coil.  It seems that the fresh water brings
    in the crud and the hot surface attracts the scale.  So, in fact
    most of the deposits are apparently on the interior of the heat
    exchanger piping.  The water in the heating loop is already fairly
    benign since it is only changed rarely.

    I just had a three-hour visit from the Baker-Whitney (Acton, MA)
    service manager.  This and similar NOTES got me started, but I'd
    like to pass on what I learned.
    
    Problem:  15-year old Weil-McLean FHW/oil system (before that was
    gravity HW by gas), tankless coil delivers minimal amounts of hot
    water -- in fact, the cold water input to the tempering valve has
    actually been shut off by previous owners.
    
    Alternatives:
    
    1.  Live with it, like the previous owners.  With a flow-restricted
    shower head, you can maintain a flow of hot water at a low flow
    rate.  Clothes washer and dishwasher draw too fast, so get a burst
    of hot followed by cold.
    
    2.  Acid flush of tankless coil.  Average cost about $200, but is
    charged by the hour because it can take .5 to 6 hours to dissolve
    all the minerals adhering to the coil.  The 50% HCl acid solution

Re: .9:
              
>3.  Replacement of tankless coil.  Something like $500, barring
>problems ($190 for new coil, remainder labor).  BUT.  The bolts holding
>the tankless coil in the boiler sometimes snap, and have to be drilled


I don't have any direct experience with this, other than having to 
replace the gasket once on my steam boiler's cover plate (where the 
tankless coil would go). But I must respond to the issue of bolts 
snapping with a product recommendation. My father and brother run a 
textile dyeing plant where live steam and all kinds of fluids run 
through lots of pipes and tanks. They assemble bolts with a paste 
called Never-Seez which I believe is available at any industrial
supply place. I have a can here that I use regularly, and that I 
will quote from. I used it on the bolts and gasket surface of my last 
car's exhaust recirculation valve, on my boiler bolts, on my spark
plugs (I've decided to be real sparing there - they tend to feel
almost loose), on my soldering iron tips. Perhaps if the bolts and
plumbing unions on your coil were assembled with this product, you
could pull the thing apart yourself and save $310 labor. (After all,
how many hours should that sort of project take?) 

"Never-Seez" Anti-Seize and Lubricating Compound 
Never-Seez Compound Corp.
Broadview (Chicago Suburb) ILL 60153

Cat. No. NSBT-8 (8 oz, brush in can)
Assures absolute parts protection, Extreme pressure lubricant
Extreme heat...over 2000 deg F, 
corrosion, seizure, galling, carbon fusion
"Put it together with Never-Seez - take it apart with guaranteed ease"
The anti-sieze compound with a million ball bearings
Never-Seez has many uses

Industrial: For nuts, valves, flanges, studs, threaded fittings, 
bushings, manifold surfaces, plugs, valve shafts, valve assemblies, 

    
    To include hot water or not to, that is the question.
    
    As I mentioned in an earlier note, I am going to convert my house
    from electric heat to FHW oil heat.  I am doing this mostly to make
    my house easier to sell when the time comes.  Of course, any savings
    that comes from oil until them will be welcome.
    
    Shattuck-Malone will convert my house with heat only for $5327.
    That includes a Weil-McLain high efficiency boiler, a Beckett model
    AF oil burner, and Weil-McLain model 75WL-3 therma trim baseboard.
    They also suggest a power venter, rather than installing a chimney.
    
    If we add a tankless coil for hot water, it would cost $5571.  If
    we install a Amtrol hot water maker, it would cost $6282.
    
    My basic question is whether I should bother with either form of
    water heat.  The oil company says that the savings over my electric
    hot water heater would equal that of the entire conversion to oil
    heat.  They said that quite possibly, they payback on the Amtrol
    system would be one year or less.  Does that make sense to you?
    
    Thank you for any advice.
    
    Roger
    

    I am not fond of tankless coils, unless coupled with an "aqua-booster"
    storage tank.  The hot water supply just isn't stable.
    
    A separate heater means you can shut your furnace down during the
    summer.  Running the furnace just to heat hot water is wasteful.
    Oil-fired hot-water heaters are very efficient.
    
    					Steve

    Here is what the Amtrol brochure says:  (Below is a direct quote)
    
    MORE COST EFFECTIVE THAN A TANKLESS SYSTEM
    
    When the weather turns cold, your boiler's tankless coil heats your
    house and tap water at the same time.  But, when the weather gets
    warmer, your burner still cycles on and off.  Day and night.  And
    that wastes a lot of energy.  And money.

    With a hot water maker attached to your existing boiler, your burner
    uses as little as 1/5th the energy to heat the same amount of hot
    water.  The result:  All the hot water you need at a price that
    won't soak you.  (Arrgh -ed.)
    
    MORE EFFICIENT THAN A SEPARATE WATER HEATER
    
    A stand alone hot water heater goes on whenever you use hot water.
    During the winter, you use (and pay for) two separate systems --
    a boiler and a hot water heater.
    
    With the Hot Water Maker, you pay for only one.  Because the Hot
    Water Maker uses the energy generated by the boiler to heat your
    water.
    

    Roger, can you deduce from the ad just what this Amtrol system is?
    I can't see how they reconcile the comments about tankless coils
    when their unit supposedly gets its heat from the boiler too.
    
    I lived with a tankless coil in my oil furnace for eight years.
    You've got to keep the boiler cycling on and off, just in case you
    might draw some hot water.  Once you get any appreciable flow, the
    temperature of the water decreases rapidly, until the boiler cycles
    on again.  The effect is alternating hot and cold.
    
    When we added a 40-gallon storage tank, things got a lot better.
    The insulated tank kept a LOT of water hot, and the temperature
    swings were a thing of the past.  The boiler came on less often
    and we used less oil.  But I still feel a separate oil heater would
    be more economical.
    
    				Steve

        Separate oil fired hot water heaters are very efficient but
    *very* expensive.  When my went last year, the quotes were $1000
    to replace it.  I was lucky and had the option of gas.
    	I agree with Steve about the storage tank.  My folks had a tankless
    system when I was a kid, and it was a great method to force you
    to take a quick shower.  You had 10 minutes of hot water then it
    ran out.  They added a 40 gallon storage tank, nothing but a giant
    thermos bottle, to the same system.  Now there is no hot water problems
    at all.
				=Ralph=    	

    
    I converted my house to FHW by oil last year and added a 40 gallon
    hot water tank heated by the furnance.  I have no complaints and
    it only cost me apporx. 3/4 tank of oil from april to sept. There
    are 4 of us and my wife doea at least 1 load of wash a day.
    
    
    Don
    

    I have a tankless hot water heater and I have NEVER run out of hot
    water...even on party weekends with a house full of old friends
    all taking showers one after the other.
    
    The water temperature does vary somewhat over the course of a shower,
    but not enough to burn or freeze somebody.
    
    I use a different temperature adjustment for summer and winter
    operation.  In the winter I set the boiler for between 200 and 170
    degrees, and in the summer I go down to 150 to 120 degrees.  
    
    If I turn the furnace off (made that mistake once), it leaks.  I guess
    its because the pipes cool down and contract.  I havn't tried to
    tighten up the joints, because I figure all that would do is squash
    the gaskets when hot and probably leak again when cold. 
    
    I don't know how much oil I use over the course of a summer, but
    its not much.
    
    Conclusion:  I am happy with the tankless system.
    
    Steve    

I had tankless hot water off an oil burner for a while.  We never ran 
out of hot water (the wife likes 45 minute-1 hour baths) and the cost 
was about $1/day in oil.  I found that having the burner cycling on and 
off during the summer saved me from the Fall startup problems that I had 
associated with oil heat up until that time.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Having lived in two houses that had tankless hot water off an oil
    burner, and two with electrically-heated tanks, I'll take the
    tanks every time.  It costs me about $20/month for electric hot
    water, which is about 1/3 less than .7 quotes for tankless oil hot water.
    Hard to compare usage, of course, but I question the notion that
    tankless oil hot water is particularly cheap.

re: .8

Cheap wasn't really an issue for me.  The neverending stream of hot 
water was important, and the increased reliability (maybe only 
perceived?) of the furnace which didn't spend four months of the year 
idle was also a plus.  Each person gets to make their own choice in 
these matters.  I don't think it's possible to prove that there is a 
right or wrong answer.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    My coal-turned-oil steam boiler has a "tankless" h/w unit hanging
    off of it too.  This 1932 vintage relic is a globe-shaped tank,
    holding a few gallons and a coil, with 5" piping top and bottom
    into the main boiler.  The result is that the entire thermal mass
    of the steam boiler (maybe 30 gallons) circulates itself past the
    h/w coils, and it never runs low or fluctuates noticeably during
    showers.
    
    BUT I've got this huge, hot radiator in the basement (laundry and
    storage room) all summer long!  The black iron tankless unit is
    totally uninsulated, and thus maintains the 160 degree aquastat
    temperature on its outside all the time (hotter in winter, of course).
    What a waste!  We've used half a tank of oil in the past 7 weeks
    since moving in, and we don't use that much h/w.
    
    We'll probably add a gas h/w heater, but I thought in the meantime
    I could insulte the tank.  But I haven't found any insulating material
    that handles the steady high temperatures.  (Exposed fiberglas is
    no good, since people walk past it all the time.)  Most "modern"
    insulation is designed for lower temps (air ducts, etc.); plastic
    won't hack it.  I think this would have called for asbestos, before
    they (rightly) banned it.  Any ideas?
    (reading this topic gets me scared, since the previous owner's oil
    man said it was bad to cycle the old furnace off for summer, and
    besides if I add a gas heater I'd have to remove the h/w radiator
    from the ancient asbestos boiler.)
           fred

    
     Reply .0
    
      A year ago I had my house done over from electric heat to FHW
    but kept my electric hot water heater. My neighbor did the same
    thing about a month before but added the amtrol tank to his system.
    Anyway during the middle of winter I compared my electric bill to
    his (same size houses) and he was paying 1/2 to 3/4 less than I 
    was and he has 4 kids and his wife using hot water compared to just 
    my girlfriend and I at my house.
    
      Well my Electric Hot Water tank Croaked last Friday and I had
    an Amtrol (pretty sure thats the name) Hot Water tank installed
    the following Monday for a little under the price you quoted. If
    my electric bill reduces as much as anticipated it will more than
    pay for itself and the oil it uses, plus providing more than enough
    hot water.
    
      One point about the difference between the tank and tankless is
    the furnace will be turning on and off all the time everyday in 
    the summer with the tankless compared to a few times a day with 
    the tank. One of the reasons I kept my electric in the first place
    was I didn't want my furnace running in the summer at all and didn't 
    really want to spend the extra money (the electric still worked), 
    the intial cost of the furnace seemed high and I didn't really take 
    into consideration the payback of the tank (also lifetime guarentee
    on the tank itself).
    
      Adding a new tank to a new furnace will be a plus for future selling
    purposes. If the buyers are not aware of this benefit compared to
    an electric hot water heater then it should be pointed out by the 
    realter. 
      
      Waiting_for_my_next_electric_bill.....
      Ted,_Who_doesn't_believe_he_just_said_that!!!
      
    
       Electric Hot Water Tank 

    
    
    I have had oil fired tankless water heaters both the intant hot
    never ending supply type and one that was absolutely tankless- just
    the pipe running through the forced hot water tank of the furnace.
    
    The instant hot one was great - never ran out of hot water but the
    oil bill was disgusting and as stated in another not I had this
    thing hanging off the side of the furnace that got HOT.
    
    The other one the oil bill was even worse plus I couldn't even get
    one complete shower before the water got cold.
    
    I have had electric water heaters - great no problem with supplies
    or temperature. but the electric bill was not only disgusting it
    wass gross revolting and any other adjective that fits.
    
    Here in New England we have a problem some times, especially in
    winter, with the power lines going down due to weather or whatever.
    Guess what - with electric - no hot water - with oil - no hot water.
    (It takes electricity to run your burner.)
    
    Give me a gas fired tank every time. 
    cheap to operate - $60. worth of bottled gas for nine months (bulk
    delivery)
    once the pilot is lit no problems with operation (Unless you get the
    kind with the pilotless electric ignition) 
    no problem with supply - even when we did run out after four showers
    recovery time is very short.
    

    Re: .12
    
    Yeah, gas is great.  But not everyone has gas available!  LP gas
    is no cheaper than oil.
    
    				Steve

    
    If your boiler is sized properly tankless coils are o.k. and you
    won't run out of hot water. However, sometimes contractors undersize
    the boiler either intentionally or they don't have education/experience
    to determine the correct boiler or burner for the environment its
    placed in.
    
    Amtrol tanks are nice in that your burner will cycle less. 
    
    Ball park material is costing the contractor about $3200.00 including
    the Amtrol (maximum).
    
    What is the GPH INPUT CAPACITY (OIL) of the BOILER? 
    
    Gas is ok, except when you have a leak!!!!
    
    
    Joe

      The tankless hot water heater in our 14 year old (as far as I
    can tell, we just bought the house) American Standard boiler has
    completely given up the ghost.  We are able to get only a vanity
    sinkful of warm water, and the flow reduces as the water is used.
      We've pretty much decided that the Amtrol Boiler Mate (or Hot
    Water Maker, depending on which plumber you talk to) is the way
    to go, we need hot water fo 5 people, but the question we have is
    concerning installation.
      I've gotten several quotes, two local plumbers, Sears (Kenmore
    unit is manufactured by Amtrol) and three seperate opinions on how
    to install it.
      Plumber #1:  Install boiler mate with gravity feed from boiler.
    		   Installed estimate = $850.00 - $1000.00.  $500.00
    		   for the unit, the rest is installation, which involves
    	           draining the heating system.  2 men @ $60.00/hr.
    
      Plumber #2:  Install boiler mate as part of (yes he actually said
      		   this!) existing heat zone, using the existing circulator
    		   and a "temp. controlled flow valve" to restrict the
     		   flow to the rest of the heating system during the
    		   summer months.  Installed estimate = $800.00.  $450.00
    		   for the unit, $350.00 for installation.
    
      Sears:	   Install Boiler Mate, with a seperate circulator,
    		   timer, shut off etc.  The only piece this has in
    		   common with the heating system is the boiler itself.
                   Estimate is $1200.00 - $1400.00.  $450.00 for the
    		   unit, approx. $300.00 for the circulator, and the
    		   rest is labor.
    
      Ruling out plumber #2, because this appears to be a real mickey
    mouse approach, and a little bit because the guy showed up at the
    house wearing a suit 8-).  I am looking for opinions about whether
    the gravity fed system will actually supply as much hot water, or
    is as dependable as the force-fed installation.  I don't have any
    more money to waste than the next guy, but if it gets installed
    and I'm not happy with it, the extra 5-6 hundred bucks would have
    been well spent.
    
    Thanks,
    Steve
    
    ps
      Not that I'm a big fan of Sears, but they were the only ones to
    guarantee the installation for a year, the unit for 20 years and
    tell me if I wasn't satisfied with the amount of hot water they
    would take it out and reinstall the old system at no charge.  Plumber
    #1 would guarantee his work for 60 days, and #2 didn't seem to
    want to answer that question, he only spoke about the unit being
    wananteed by the manufacturer for a long time. (How do these guys
    get a license anyway?)

    I suggest #2 or #3.  You may not get enough hot water from the boiler
    to go through the unit in the gravity fed scenario.  You will find
    out for sure only after you have it put in, Or if you can find someone
    in this file with an identical furnace and instalation.
    It's a pity method 2 was suggested by someone who gave
    a bad impression, it is in principal the one I have used, although
    I have a different control scheme with valves to keep from heating
    the house while I make hot water. I can make hot water indefinitely
    from every faucet in the house at the same time.
    
    Enjoy,
    
    gjd

Could someone post a brief, simple explanation of how these things work? 
As I understand it, the hot water heating zones are closed loops, so you
have to have a pump to make the water flow.  But for a hot water heater,
as the water flows it has to be replaced, and the water coming into the
boiler is at a pretty reasonable pressure - 40psi or more in my system,
and I could increase that if I needed to.  So why would there have to
be a gravity feed into the Boiler Mate?  Or to phrase the question another
way, if gravity is what makes water flow into the Boiler Mate in my basement,
what makes it flow from the Boiler Mate to my faucet upstairs?

	Thanks,
	Larry

    To repeat a question posed in .1's response,
    
    
    I have steam heat by oil.  The heating unit is a converted coal
    fired unit which now has a new beckett oil burner.  It does a good
    job of heating the house.  The hot water is also heated by this
    system.  The hot water is held essentially in a tank and has the
    cold water pipe going in and the hot water pipe coming out, just
    like a typical free-standing water heater.  The heat for the hot
    water is supplied by a steam pipe from the system.  I don't know
    the internal configuration of the steam pipe inside the water 
    tank as it relates to heating the water but for my question that
    is irrelevent anyway.
    
    What I need to know is, is there a device/thermostat/control valve,
    etc. I can put in-line on the steam pipe to regulate the temperature
    of the hot water?  The water coming out of that faucett is best
    described as scalding to say the least!  Thanks for the info.
    
    
    Jack

I don't know about regulating the steam side but there are control 
valves, called mixing valves (not the same as you use to make your 
shower safe from toilet flushing), that mix cold water with the very 
hot such that you can maintain a safe hot water temperature. These are 
commonly used with older (and maybe newer) oil furances that also 
provide domestic hot water. They have an adjusting screw and a 
replaceable element which compensates for differences in the cold water 
temperature.

Ask your friendly local plumbing supply place. I doubt that a place 
like grossmans or sommerville lumber would carry them.

Chuck

    I have the same system you do and the only way to control the
    hot water temp is by lowering the thermostat on the boiler.
    You do have one to control the minimum boiler temp, don't you?
    When I moved into my house it was set for 175 degrees and you
    could make tea out of the faucet. I lowered it to 150 degrees
    and now the temp is ok. This of course in turn makes the time
    for the boiler to come up to speed longer, but you have to live
    with this. 
    
    	Tim
    

I'd really appreciate a report from an owner of a standalone oil-fired
domestic hot water heater.
I am one of the many who has an inadequate tankless oil fired boiler
fed system, and I'd like better hot water.
Gas would be ideal, but we aren't on the line.
Electricity might be attractive if I could play the games of dual-feeding
a tank - like the Boiler Mate, but electric backup for peak and non-winter use.

I'd like to shut the boiler down in the summer.  Has anybody really had 
problems with thermal stress starting up in the fall?

A plumbing contractor informally suggested (we were on a separate matter,
we hadn't brought him in to bid on the hot water job) we just buy a separate
oil-fired water heater.  Is there really a home insurance surcharge
for a separate oil burning head?

I've read all  the hot water discussions in here over the last year,
since we bought this house.  I don't expect a black and white answer
about what's best, but if there is any personal history about  the
standalone oil-fired hot water heater, I'd love to hear it.

thanks.......

- tom powers]

    re: .-1
    
    I've got a standalone HW heater fired by oil.  Haven't had any problems
    with it at all.  Since I heat my house mainly with wood, it really
    saves on the oil.  Send me mail for the make and model info if you
    want it.
    Dan

    re:.-2
    
    I also have a stand-alone oil fired HW tank, as the furnace was replaced
    with gas steam before we moved in last year.
    
    The oil HW tank that was in there when we moved in died two months
    ago, having rusted out.  However, it lasted 12 years, which according
    to the local oil company is well beyond its expected life (particularly
    with Westborough water).
    
    While I had given some thought to putting in a gas tank should the
    old one ever go, there wasn't much time to decide on that fateful
    Saturday morning.  The oil company was at our house within 15 minutes
    of my calling, and had the new one in within about two hours.  Even
    though I tend not to like oil products for the house, I can't say
    enough good things about this oil company (Comey Oil).
    
    The new tank is the same make as the old one, Boch (32 gallons).
    In total, since moving in last June, we have used less than one tank
    of oil (there's just two of us).  I can give you the exact totals
    if you want.  
    
    I actually like the oil fired HW as compared to gas or electric,
    as it heats a lot faster.  The tank will only burn for a maximum
    of 12 minutes, in which time it can heat the whole tank of water.

    Let me know if you are looking for more info.
    
    /art

    
     I have look at all the notes on tankless HW heaters but could not find
    a discussion of the different manufacturers. Does anyone know of an 
    article that compares them(i.e. consumer's report maybe). I am getting
    ready to convert and would like to make sure the one I am getting is
    not a lemon. The manufacturer's literature tends to be biased. Any
    input you have as to which you like or stories you heard about ones
    with problems is appreciated. I am leaning towards Thermar but that is
    mostly due to the fact that it is carried by a national distributor and
    I know service should not be a problem.

You didn't specifically mention whether you were looking at an electric one
or a gas one.  The only input I've had was from an oil-heat guy (maybe biased)
who said he'd been called in to replace electric heaters only a couple years
after they were put in - he does *not* like the electric ones.  He said that
the gas ones are better and/or more durable or something.

(Are you referring to the "in-line" or "point-of-use" heaters?  "Tank-less"
also refers to something attached to an oil burner or gas furnace.)

    
    re: .1
    
     Sorry! I always think that non-electric is implied. I am in the
    process of converting my house from all-electric to as little as
    possible. Especially since I have PSNH as my supplier. I put in 
    an LP FHW heating system last year so now I want to convert the 
    dryer and HW to LP.
    
     One other thing. I noticed in some of the older notes that they
    did not think that the water got hot enough for a dishwasher. Is
    that still true with the 125,000 BTU units?

    
    re: .1
    
     I did not see your second question. It is the 'point-of-use' ???. It
    does not run off the boiler.

    
    
     If I were you I would install a 40 or 50 gallon LP gas storage water 
    heater. I did this in my house (I use to have tankless off the heating
    boiler). I have always had hot water since, and my boiler doesn't have
    to run in the summer just to heat hot water.
    
    Mike S.

Our hot water is provided by our oil burner (FHW).  A couple times in the past
week there has been no hot water.  Hitting the reset switch fixes the problem
just fine.  But why is there no hot water?

1.  We heat with wood primarily, so we don't get much of the "free" (during the
winter) hot water normally associated with this kind of system; i.e. when the
"heat" is on, the "domestic" water is heated automatically.  We had no problem
with hot water all through the winter until this past week (it has been warmer).

2.  The two-zone heat thermostat situation I think I could "debug".  Wires can
be traced, a wall thermostat can be replaced, etc.  But where is the thermostat
for domestic hot water?  And is there something I can look for and tweak?

(The house is just barely a year old.  It's a Becket burner.)

Jon

        There is no thermostat for the domestic hot water.  The
    temperature of the water in the boiler is controlled.
    Probably in the 170-190 degree range.  The domestic water is
    heated by a heat exchanger, either internal to the boiler or
    boiler water is pumped through an external heat exchanger in
    a separate hot water tank.  Variable means, same end.

        Thermostats in the house should have no bearing on the
    problem.  They control the pump(s)/zone valves to move hot
    water through the base board heating units.

        You said pressing the reset switch fixed the problem.  I
    have to assume you are refering to the burner reset.  It
    appears to me the burner has failed to fire for some reason
    and tripped the safety cutout.  The most likely cause is
    flame failure.  If the system is nearly a year old, it is
    time to clean and check.  If the flame sensor is an electric
    eye in the fire box, these are easily covered with soot and
    fail to 'see' a flame which may in fact be present.



    Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the reply.

> There is no thermostat for the domestic hot water.  The temperature of the
> water in the boiler is controlled.  Probably in the 170-190 degree range.  

Well, what "controls" it at 170-190 degrees?  What tells the burner to turn on
if/when the temperature dips below that level?  (which must happen somehow
all during the non-heating months)  Maybe "thermostat" is the wrong term, but...

And, as far as oil getting to the burner is concerned, I'd think that if the
reset switch successfully re-fires the burner, resulting in ample hot water,
the oil is getting there.  I'm not saying it couldn't use a cleaning, tho.

Jon

    There will be a box on the front of the boiler which is called an
    aquastat, which has the hi and lo limit adjustments. These control when
    the burner turns on and turns off for hot water.
    
    Eric

Re: .3

Sorry, I forgot to mention that yesterday (it was in the 60's with today's
forecast being similar) we let the stove die down.  This morning the heat
came on (not just the circulator, but the burner), so the "regular",
non-reset-switch activation of the burner seems to be working.

This low limit switch thing.  As mentioned, it's inside a box which would,
I believe, protect it from inquisitive and rarely-in-the-cellar kids' fingers.
I know *I*'ve never moved it.  Is there a contact or something that could fail?
that could be cleaned?  adjusted?

Thanks for all your help.

Jon

    I've got the same problem and we're discussing it in 2243.1something.
    
    I'm going to pick up a new Aquastat (Honeywell L8124C-1102).  So far,
    no other possible causes/solutions, but it strikes me that you just
    encountered the same problem I'm experiencing.  I have a Beckett burner
    (I think that's what you said you had) and am wondering if you have a
    Burnham boiler.  
    

    
    
    If the "reset" button is required to be reset- then something is
    causing the burner to kick ourt. 
    
    here's the waty it works:
    
    1. when the temp in the boiler drops below the low setting on the
    aquastat, the burner is turned on. when the temp reaches the high
    limit,the burner turns off.
    
    2. If the burner is signalled to come on and something is wrong- the
    reset circuit breaker kicks out and the burner will not come on
    reagrdeless of waht the aquastat is calling for.
    
    3. resetting the "reset" breaker allows the aquatstat to now turn on
    ther burner, but ONLY if the water temp in the boiler is below the low
    setting on the aquatstat.
    
    If that reset keeps kicking out, you have a "no start" problem. The
    circuit is designed to shut off the burner if it fails to ignite, such
    as when you have dirty electrodes - if the burner kept pumping fuel
    into the firebox and the electroded finally did ignote, the residents
    of the household would be in for one big surprise!- if they survived.
    
     You havce a safety circuit that is not operating properly-If you are
    not intimately familiar with the circuit, then I suggest you contact an
    oil burner repair service immediately- something is definitely wrong-
    it could be as simple as dirty contacts or it could be more serious.
    
     D.................
     

    I just purchased a new home with a forced hot water sytem and tankless
    water heater.  It is also a Weil-Mclain.  Rather then starting a new note
    for this question, I thought entering it as a reply here may be more 
    appropriate.

    The question concerns water temperature control of the tankless hot
    water.  I notice while in the shower, on the second floor, that 
    the temperature fluctuates quite a bit.  I constantly have to adjust 
    the faucet because the water gets very hot or too cool.  Is this 
    typical with water heated by an oil fired, tankless system?

    Would the well pressure have anything to do with this?  The incoming 
    pressure at the well tank is 30-50 psi.  Would adjusting the pressure
    help keep a more consistent temperature of the water?

    Thanks for any information you can offer.

    Regards,
    Denis

    Do you have a pressure regulator leading FROM the water tank?
    If the flow which exits the tank varies enough it could
    certainly cause hot (low pressure) and cold (high pressure)
    spurts.  My city-fed water system has a regulator and I don't
    notice any substantial difference in water temperature with
    my tankless heater.

    RE .5 - I don't remember seeing a pressure regulator.  The well system
    regulates pressure by turning the well pump on and off with a pressure
    switch.  This results in a 20 psi swing in pressure in the water line.
    I can feel this pressure difference from the water coming from the 
    shower head.  That's one drawback to a well system - poor regulation
    of water pressure.

    I'll take a close look at it when I get home tonight.  Perhaps there is
    regulator on the heater itself?

    Thanks,
    Denis

Sometimes, there is a flow restrictor placed on the cold feeder to the tankless
system.  This prevents the water from flowing by too quickly to get heated.  I
had one on the tankless system in the house I rented, but they had city water.
I never looked to see if I have one now with well water.  If it is on a pipe, it
looks like a tubing coupler.  (I found out about it when Acton sent me some 
screw parts in the water, and one of them effectively shut off my hot water.)

In the past, I never experienced much of a fluctuation in the 1st floor shower.
Even when the well pump cycled.  Lately, however, I have had problems with the 
hot water almost going away, until I have someone turn up the heat.  Since
other faucets are capable of delivering water that ranges from very hot to 
scalding, I suspect my tub/shower mixer valve of causing the problem, especially
since it is recently prone to dripping a lot, too.

    A new house should have a scaldless faucet for showers, so I'll assume
    you do, it works, and eliminate pressure changes as the cause. 
    (Without a scaldless faucet, you could get burned if someone flushed
    downstairs or frozen if say the dishwasher came on.)
    
    That leaves the mixing valve and the boiler controls.  First check
    the boiler controls to be sure that the boiler temp is set correctly.
    Ballpark numbers are LO between 180 or 190 and HI no more than 210. 
    Check the owner's manual.
    
    Then look at the mixing valve.  You can turn it for more or less hot. 
    If you always get too much hot water, adjust it for less (add more
    cold) and vice versa for not enuff hot.
    
    If you get too much hot water sometimes and too much cold water other
    times, I'd guess the mixing valve is bad/clogged/whatever and should
    be replaced.                           

RE: .4

	By looking at the replies so far your best bet would be to isolate
the problem. I.E. is the upstairs shower the only one with the temperature
changing?

	If it is with all the faucets... Look at the mixing valve/heater 
section.

	If it is with just that shower, a new shower valve should do the trick.

	If it is all upstairs faucets, more water pressure should fix it...


		Bill

	I'd like to confuse things by describing another problem with mixing 
valves. I am about to replace for the third time this year, the sensor found
with in the mixing valve due to corrosion. When corroded it stops working, the
water coming out of the tap can burn someone. I was told by the furnance repair
man that my city water is corroding it. But with 3 gone within a year, sounds
like the is a problem here.

	1. Are all mixing valves created equal? I mean are there  different
		types?
	2. Are there any alternatives?


Any help would be appreciated.

	-bob

A previous house of mine had tankless HW.  It would cycle up and down
in temperature, which isn't too surprising when you think about how
these work.  I eventually installed an "Aquabooster" tank which gave me a
large reserve of hot water, and I never had a problem again.  It also 
allowed the boiler to run more efficiently.  They're about $800 installed,
though.

				Steve

re: .10
>	1. Are all mixing valves created equal? I mean are there  different
>		types?
>
	The metal sensor used to control the temperature is basically the
same in all mixing valves.

>	2. Are there any alternatives?

	Yes, Go to a non-tankless HW system or you could do as .11 did. This
I believe is a hot water tank that will get heated by the tankless heater. 
Please correct me if I wrong .11.

	You also could get your water analyzed to find out what is in it to
cause the corrosion. I would think that other sections of your plumbing are
ready to fail too.

		Bill

Re: .12

You are correct.  An Aquabooster (I think this is a brand name) is an
insulated storage tank with a heat exchanger inside, fed from a new "zone"
on your FHW boiler.  The advantage is that the boiler doesn't need to come
on as often and much less temperature fluctuation.  It actually will save
oil too.

			Steve

re     <<< Note 1949.13 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

>You are correct.  An Aquabooster (I think this is a brand name) is an
>insulated storage tank with a heat exchanger inside, fed from a new "zone"
>on your FHW boiler.  The advantage is that the boiler doesn't need to come
>on as often and much less temperature fluctuation.  It actually will save
>oil too.


       What is involved in a DIY installation?  What does the unit cost, what
   other parts are needed?   I'd like to install one, but I won't pay 800 bucks
   to have it installed by a plumber.  

       I presume the units are available at most plumbing/heating supply houses?

      Thanks

       Steve

	If I were to get an Aqualbooster would that work with steam heat? I
think that with steam heat you can only have one zone?

	
	-bob

I don't see anything strange about an Aquabooster that would preclude
DIY as long as you felt capable of adding another zone to your system.

As for steam heat - I can't quite see an Aquabooster compatible with that,
but maybe someone has more imagination than I do.

				Steve

From looking at ours, the installation seems to be the equivalent amount of
work to adding a new zone plus adding an electric water heater minus wiring
the electric water heater.

In other words, you'll need to connect input and output lines for the household
hot water, a pressure (or is it pressure and temperature) relief valve and a 
pipe to within the required distance from the floor, input and output lines 
for the new zone, and the zone valve.

The tricky part is the wiring.  Not because it's technically complex, but 
rather because the manufacturers seem to like to make a game of it by
withholding all the crucial documentation.  It's kind of like reading a
car manufacturers repair manual, only worse.  You may need to make sure you
get an appropriate thermostat (aquastat?) for the storage unit; I don't think
they come equipped with the thermostat.  You'll also need to deal with the
control unit on the FHW boiler, so that the low limit can be turned down to zero.
I'm beginning to suspect, based on other recent notes on this subject, that
there are different models for the control unit, depending on whether you
have tankless hot water (requiring a low limit) or an external hot water system
(with no low limit).

Ours is a Superstore.  The other well-known name is Amtrol.

   Gary

    
    
    I currently have a rented electric water heater. I am thinking of
    getting rid of it and replacing with oil fired. Is it cheaper to 
    run the oil fired. Can I expect to save $$$? I expect, from what I have
    heard, that the oil fired doesn't use much oil and electrics can be
    very expensive to run (plus the rental fee, in this case). Is this
    true?
    
    thanks,
    tom
    

re         <<< Note 1949.17 by TLE::FELDMAN "Digital Designs with PDF" >>>

 Since the unit is on an additional zone, does this mean that the hot water 
 that will come out of your tap will be the same hot water that is circulated
 through the baseboard heat and is in the boiler?  i.e., there is no isololation
 between the boiler water and your hot water at the tap?

 Or does the unit act as a heat exchanger similar to the tankless system?

 Is your old tankless coil completely removed from the loop?

 What is the electricity wired into the unit used for?  A heating element?


   Steve

re                      <<< Note 827.18 by HPSMEG::SWETT >>>

What you say is true, but oil fired water heaters cost around 800 bucks, about
4 times the cost of an average electric unit.  The supposedly last longer too.
So they should pay for themselves.  The burner might need a little regular
maintenance too.
    

    Do you already have oil fired other applicances?  The cost of getting a
    tank installed and the difference in cost between an electric vs. an
    oil fired may not pay itself back in a reasonable time frame.
    
    Electric is more expensive to run than gas or oil because gas/oil it is
    a less expensive heating fuel.  Electric are usful if you do not have any
    existing gas/oil appliances and the cost to convert would be extreme.

    Before giving up on the tankless heater, check the mixing (tempering)
    valve.  Open a hot water faucet, then go and adjust the mixing valve
    temperature control - does it have any effect?  Check the temperature
    of the pipes around the valve, either with your hand (carefully) or a
    quick-responding thermometer.... is the hot water coming in to the
    valve hot enought to burn your hand?  And is the outlet water just
    barely warm at the same time?  If so, the valve may be bad.
    
    I just had the same problem described a few replies back - very little
    hot water, just enough to finish one shower.  I replaced the mixing
    valve element ($7), and now have enough hot water for a 2 showers, the
    dishwasher, and maybe even a load of laundry all at the same time.
    
    That may not be the problem in your case, but it's worth checking.
    
    /Don

re: .18

The unit acts as a heat exchanger.  The household hot water and heating hot 
water are kept separate (past the valve, if any, that automatically feeds the
heating hot water).

The old tankless coil is removed from the loop.  This is another task that I
left out (since we didn't have one to remove).  You'd probably have to cap
the ends of the tankless coil.  It might also turn out to be a source of heat
loss, but I don't know whether that matters.

The electricity involved is purely the low-voltage electricity that controls
the works.  In other words, there's a thermostat on the household hot water 
tank that tells the boiler when to fire.  There's no 120V wiring on the
hot water tank.

   Gary

You don't HAVE to remove the old tankless coil from the loop - when mine
was installed, it was left in.

		Steve

    Well, judging by the descriptions in this note, the mixing valve seems
    to be working ok.  I did boost the supply water pressure and notice a
    definite improvement in pressure/temperature at the shower.  I certainly
    can live with the minor temperature fluctuations now, but perhaps will
    upgrade to some type of storage tank in the future.

    Many thanks for the helpful suggestions!

    Regards,
    Denis

    This note seems to be the closest to my question...
    Presuming an oil-fired heating system, what is the best solution
    for domestic hot water? The options I'm aware of are:
    
    Tankless system of the boiler
    Oil-fired water heater
    Indirectly heated tank (using a zone off the existing burner)
    
    I'm leaning towards the last one, but would like opinions other
    than those with a vested interest :-)
    
    John

    You get what you pay for.  A tankless system off the boiler is the
    cheapest route.  When new, they can usually deliver adequate hot
    water for average family use.  Several long showers in succession
    with a load of laundry and a run of the dishwasher are a bit much.
    You can plumb in a "backwash" feature for the coil to help prevent
    inevitable clogging.
    
    An indirect system yields more hot water and is probably more fuel
    efficient in the long run.  However, they have more parts and cost
    more to buy/install.  Figure around $800.
    
    A separate oil-fired heater is clearly the winner in hot water
    capacity (tank size being the determining factor) as well as recovery.
    These cost the most to buy (around $1200?) and the most to run.  Also,
    *some* (not all) insurance companies charge an additional premium
    since you now have two burners and twice the risk of a burner causing
    a fire.
    
    For the most part, the current wisdom and opinion leans toward an
    indirectly heated tank as the best compromise.
    

    
>    For the most part, the current wisdom and opinion leans toward an
>    indirectly heated tank as the best compromise.
    Hmm. It sounded like this type had everything going for it.
    Cheaper, more fuel efficient, no insurance hassle, and just one
    burner. Where's the compromise? Also, how can a direct oil-fired
    unit have better recovery and more hot water than an indirect
    unit of the same tank size? I would imagine those characterisics
    are related to tank size (which would be the same), and BTU
    output. Since we're dealing with a boiler designed to heat a
    house, I'd think the indirect unit would recover much quicker
    than one designed to heat a tankful of water.
    
    John

    re: .23
    
    There are downsides to the indirect system over either of the other two
    options.  First, the indirect tank system will require an additional
    zone off your existing boiler, this means additional hardware (circ.
    pump, controller, tank) and associated maintainence.  Secondly, it will
    be less efficient and have a longer recovery time than the stand-alone 
    oil fired approach since you are heating water via an exchanger with 
    boiler water (@ 180-200F) vs. directly with the oil flame.
    
    Finally the indirect approach requires that the boiler be operating 
    year-round, while the stand alone unit wouldn't place this restriction
    on the boiler.   
    
    Obviously, the tankless system directly off the boiler represents the 
    simplest approach, and for most cases will provide adequate hot water 
    year-round provided the proper minimum boiler temperature is set.  
    Boilers with built in hot water reseviors are also available.
    
    /Jeff 

re: .25

Depending on capacity, there may be no need for some of that extra equipment
you mention for an indirect system.  One circulator pump can drive several zones,
including the water heater.  The controls come with the external system.  And
you're going to need either a tank or a tankless insert in any case.  All 
that's really mandatory is an extra zone valve.  (Of course, if you use
control the system via circulator pumps with no zone valves, you'd need the
extra circulator instead.)  There's less maintenance than a separate oil-fired
heater, since there's one less burner to maintain.  The extra zone valve or
circulator pump, as the case may be, does represent a potential extra point of
failure.

   Gary

    I have read through all the tankless hotwater heater notes and
    can't find what I am looking for.  
    
    We recently moved into a new home, the problem is with the hot
    water.  It takes an awful long time for the water to get hot,
    we hve to run the water for a few minutes and then finally we
    get hot water, but it won't stay hot long, it will get warm
    in the middle of a shower.  I have turned the water temp up
    thinking that may help, but still the same problem.  Any ideas?
    
    

        This certainly sounds familiar.  My problem was the
    mixing valve.  Mine failed (slowly) so we had cooler and
    cooler 'hot' water.  Sounds as if yours is going the same
    route or is set too low.  The valve should be located on the
    side of the boiler where the water lines enter and exit the
    heat exchanger.



    Peter Duke

	
	My problem is similar but different. We have a tankless system. When the
shower is turned on there may or may not be hot water. If there is hot water,
then there's plenty of it. However it seams that at certain times of day there
may be no hot water. I know that we have not run out because, this may occur
when no one has used the hot water. I listen to see if the furnace is running 
and it's not. If I turn up the thermostat and wait a few minutes, then I have
hot water. This problem seams to be occurning more and more frequently.
Any idears?

thanks

-bob

    re .1
    
    I have turned up the water temperature.  The black knob that goes
    from 120 to 160 degrees.  The house is brand new, so we are goingt
    to call the builder and see what the problem is, just thought maybe
    it could be a quick fix.
    
    Thanks.

    I experienced this same problem when moving into by brand new home last
    year.  The plumber had inavertantly connected the cold water pipe into
    the hot side (return) of the water heater, and the hot water pipe to the
    cold (supply) side.  What was happening was that as the hot water was
    turned on, the water was being taken from the top (1/3rd?) of the tank
    which quickly used up all of the hot water.   A quick switch of the
    pipes to the correct position on top of the tank corrected the
    problem.....
    
    If this is a newly-built home, check to see if the pipes are connected
    correctly.
    
    

    .4  thanks.  But if this is a tankless hot water system, the water
    should just be heating as its flowing through the system.  But I
    will mention it to the builder.  I just hate wasting all this water
    waiting for the hot water to come on.
    
    

If you have to turn the hot water up to 160, you are putting yourself in
big danger of being scalded.  Get a competent plumber in to look at it.

			Steve

        This is a strange one.  Turning up the house thermostat =
    hot water?  I fail to see the connection at the moment.
    Please post the answer when found.


    Peter

    Re: Turning up the house thermostat
    
    Sounds like the capacity of the tankless system is low...so that when
    the heat is on,the furnace is running for awhile and there is a large
    thermal reserve to heat the water.
    
    The sizing of the nozzle could be a problem. A good burner service
    man should be able to fix it.
    
    Marc H.

    Could be the aquastat is bad

	
	To -.0, sorry about adding my node before you have solved you problem.
I seem to have added some confusion. 

	In reply to the nozzle and aquastat I'll look into these. We last had
a furnace tuneup a year ago, where a new nozzle was added. Since we have
only noticed this problem gradually over the last month or so, I don't think
it's the nozzle. In any case I'll have the heating company come out for our
yearly tuneup and have them check the nozzle and aquastat. 

	What does the aquastat do? What does it look like, and if this is the
problem is it something that I can replace myself (ie. no soldering). Is there
a way I can test if this is the problem? Please keep all your replies coming.


thanks

-bob

    	No help here, just my two cents. In the place I rented previously
    they had  tankless hot water. It basically acted like .2. We used 
    to turn the heat up to shower in the AM. Getting enough hot water
    for a shower later in the day was unpredictible, even with turning
    up the temperature. I will NEVER  have a tankless for myself again. 
    I hope your repair people are better then those my ex-landlord hired.

    re .10
    The aquastat, as I understand it, is the thermostat for your house's
    hot water that you use for bathing.  It's responsible for turning on
    the burner if that water gets too cold.  It's wired in parallel
    with the temperature control from the boiler, so that if either
    temperature gets too low the burner comes on.
    
    I don't know if they all look the same or not.  Ours is a gray box,
    about 6 inches long by 2 inches wide and deep, mounted on the front
    of the furnace.  It has a dial on the front with numbers on it, the
    numbers being the hot water temperature that you want.
    
    My dad, who's been in the heating business for about 50 years, says
    that the aquastat sometimes "sticks", although I never asked him what
    he meant by that, so that you'd not get hot water. I do remember him
    replacing umpteen zillion of them.
    
    Apparently you can SOMETIMES fix an aquastat by turning the temperature
    adjustment up and down several times (assuming it's just a physical
    dial like ours).

 -.1

 Well, I'll toggle the temperature adjustment and see if that unsticks it. If
not I'll have to call the heating contractor. This warm weather is making the
situation worse. The furnace almost never turns on.  

 Thanks for all you help,

 -bob

How's the temperature of the water elsewhere in the house?

Something that might cause shower only trouble is the shower valve itself.  Most
new construction uses a shower valve that limits the flow of hot water to 
prevent scalding.  If this is clogged, perhaps by some solder, or corrosion in 
older installations, the flow of hot water is reduced to the point where the
shower will heat up only when the water temperature is at it's max.  It might
be that the valve is just set incorrectly.

Another problem might be due to the water pressure.  Demand hot water systems
use a flow restrictor to reduce the rate of flow thru the furnace.  If the cold
water pressure from the street or well is high enough it battles back the hot
water when both taps are open (as is the case with most shower valves).  When
I rented in Acton, we had a problem like this.  There was no pressure regulator
in the line from the street.  When the washer in the basement came on with the
hot and cold valves both open, you could get only cold water from all other taps
in the house.  Fortunately, we had an old two faucet shower, so we just opened
the hot all the way, and the cold about 16th of a turn.  One day the plummber
noticed the lack of the regulator, installed one, and our water control went 
bakc to normal.

	More good ideas! By the way this is not new construction and yes the 
   water is also cold from the other taps in the house, so I guess it cannot be
   the shower valve.  

	I'm not sure if we have a flow regulator so I'll check the flow 
   restrictor problem by testing a 2 faucet sink. This is a valid test, right?
   Tonight I am also planning to look at the aquastat, so I have not ruled that
   out get.


   thanks again,

   -bob

    re.14..
    
    I have a tankless hotwater system. It is supposed to be hot water on
    demand" I beleive, and is fairly new (6 to 7 years old. In order to 
    shower we need to turn the hot water on all thew way, and the cold,
    less than 1/4 of one turn. Does this sound like a problem ?
    Or is this normal for this type of system ?
    
    Also, the water from the shower seems much hotter that the tub spigot,
    so much that my kids fill the tub from the shower head (Its a
    detachable, shower massage, by Waterpik).
    
    Does this sound "normal"  ?
    
    Thanx/-bob-

I don't think it sounds too odd.  The limiting factor for tankless systems is 
the flow rate.  Use a lower flow rate out of the shower and you'll need a 
lower ratio of hot/cold because the hot water will be hotter.

Since there is typically less of a restriction from the spigot than from the 
shower head, using the spigot open all the way will fill the tub quicker than
with the shower head, but with cooler water (the water passes though the 
heater faster, hence it doesn't get as hot).

Try timing how long it takes to fill a gallon container from the shower head.
Then fill the container from the spigot, with the controls adjusted so it
takes the same amount of time.  You'll probably find that the spigot won't be
on all the way, but that the water will be the same temperature.  I'm assuming
the tub is filled with the hot water only. 

							-- Chuck Newman

>-< The flow rate is the limiting factor for tankless heaters >-

    Finally a note I can deal with. I had a similar problem with my
    tankless heater in Leominster. Leominster, similar to Nashua, has a
    lot of sediment in the water. And according to my local furnace
    repairer, the sediment limits the 'tankles heaters' to a useful life
    of about 5 years (mine was about 20 years old), and the water really
    was a trickle.
    
    ( I lived in Nashua for 9 years, right next to a hydrant that got
    flushed twice a year, and the first 10 minutes of flow was absolutley
    brown from the sediment that came down from the Souhegan River
    through Pennichuck Brook).
    
    My solution wasn't elegant, but was a lot of work. We installed an
    electric water heater and disconnected from the tankless. To control
    the 'teenagers' showers, we set the water temp on the 40 gal heater
    to 100'F, cut back the outflow some, and disabled the hot water on
    the washing machine. Provides a nice healthy $80 month electric bill
    at .22 KWH. ;^)
    
    -BobE
    

   Well, I "adjusted" the aquastat sensor this weekend. By sliding it to
 the min. and max positions a few times. My aquastat is located near my 
 mixing value, which I replaced a couple of months ago. Perhaps I bumped 
 the setting, lower while replacing the mixing valve. So I re-adjusted the
 setting to 130 deg. Since it's been cold the furnance has been on alot
 lately so I have not experienced the no hot water problem yet. Time will
 tell. Is the 130 deg. a valid tempature if my mixing valve is set to 120 
 degrees?

 -bob

    I have experienced a couple problems with my tankless system over the
    past 14 years.
    
    Problem:   No hot water unless the heating thermostat was turned up.
               Fortunately this happened in the winter !
    
    Cause:     The aquastat/control assy was defective.  This unit has
               two sets of controls as I understand it.  One set senses
               the temperature  of the water in the tankless hot water
               "coils".  This circuit wasn't working.  Turning the heat
               thermostat up simply forces the furnace to ignite.
    
    Problem:   Typical "flow" problem.   Water starts out hot, rapidly
               cools. 
    
    Cause:     Scale build up in the tankless coils. A plumber charged me
               $ 40 to flush the tankless coils with acid, removing the scale
               build-up that occurs over time.   I was surprised at this as my
               house has city water and we do not have mineral build ups in
               the sinks or toilets.  
    
    
               

	
	Well, we have hot water again! The problem was the aquastat setting
   had been moved, while working on another project. The set screw was loose
   and I must have bumped it. First I set the aquastat to 130 degrees. This
   didn't seam to help. Then I set the Aquastat higher to 160 degrees and now 
   all is well. I would like to thanks everyone for all their suggections
   and help. Now I even know what and aquastat is :-)!

   -bob

    I know this note deals mostly with "in-line" tankless hot water
    heaters, but so do the rest of them.  However, my hot water is heated
    by was has been called a "tankless" system that is embedded in the side
    of my furnace, and I have a question about it.
    
    We are experiencing lack of pressure (ie. no dishwasher during
    showers).  My parents had the same set up on their furnace when I was
    growing up.  They tell me that a service person can put a chemical
    through the pipes to remove the corosion build-up and end the
    restriction.  Has anyone ever heard of this?
    
    Thanks,	
    		JAM

 >     We are experiencing lack of pressure (ie. no dishwasher during
 >     showers).  My parents had the same set up on their furnace when I was
 >     growing up.  They tell me that a service person can put a chemical
 >     through the pipes to remove the corosion build-up and end the
 >     restriction.  Has anyone ever heard of this?

    That's an acid flush, and it (supposedly) can work, but there's a
    risk: if the heat exchange coils have gotten thin in places, they
    could go right through when the acid wash is used.

    We had problems with hot water sufficiency to the point where you
    couldn't fill a bathtub with water warm enough to sit in (you
    could take a shower, because we have flow-restricting shower
    heads, and the water flowed slowly enough through the coils to
    actually get hot).

    We decided not to try the acid flush, due to the above risk. We
    wound up having the whole coil replaced (they had to special order
    one) a couple of years ago. Really made the difference. (Oh, but
    now the mixer valve is starting to act up again. Maybe if we were
    to move to Florida...)

    By the way, we've never been able to take showers at the same time
    the dishwasher's running - total hot water capacity of the system
    just isn't high enough.

    re .19
    
    My parents bought a house with one of those systems.  The symptoms were
    the same and they solved the problem - the first time - with the acid
    flush method.  However, although they could get hot water initially,
    the system could never keep up with their needs for showers, dish and
    clothes washer - and it was only the two of them.
    
    They gave up, I put in a seperate Gas heater, and they never had hot
    water (heat or volume) problems after that.

    My mother-in-law finally put in a (oil-fired) water heater.  Now you
    can take showers over there without sudden freezes.
    
    /Charlotte

Another option is a storage tank, a la Stor-Mor or Amtrol. They are hooked up as
another zone and call the burner as required. I've seen them in 40, 60 and 80
gallon sizes. Last time I priced a 60 gallon it was around $400. This is cheaper
than a standalone oil/gas fired water heater and doesn't have a burner to clean
and maintain.

Of course, if you have FHA heat you need a water heater.

CdH

    Re:.23
    
    I don't like them .  The tankless method is quite in-efficient and
    using an auxillary storage tank just "masks" the problem.  The best
    solution is to have a dedicated way to make your hot water.  If you
    have oil, use a oil hot water heater and save $$$ in the long run.
    
    I would bet, that even electric hot water is cheaper than an oil
    "tankless" system.
    
    Marc H.
    
    P.S. The best system that I had was a coal hot water baseboard/hot
    water system.....but...thats another story.
    
    

Tankless hot water systems are more efficient during the heating system (only
one burner) but probably less efficient at other times since you're running
the whole furnace just for hot water.

-Mike

    Re .24 & .25
    
    I have a tankless heater that is more than adequate for all of
    our house hold needs. The heat recovery (capacity) of a tankless
    is related to the length of pipe located in the boiler and the
    operating temperature of the boiler. 
    
    Typically, my house stops calling for heat at the begining of May
    and resumes heating demands in October. The boiler operating 
    temperature during these months is set to the limits of 140-160
    degrees. My fuel consumption over the last ten years for heating
    hot water during the summer months is beteen 80-90 gallons.  I
    know this for fact because I measure consumption by clocking the
    running hours of the burner with a 24 hour clock attached to the
    system. 
    
    I find that the cost for domestic hot water reasonable based on
    my oil consumption. However, if I was to modify my system for
    summer use, I would consider a heat pump so I wouldn't have to 
    operate a dehumidifier in the basement.
    
    
    Joe

    Someone in the want ads of this notesfile was selling a heat pump that
    could be used to heat water in the summer. You got your summertime
    water heating needs *plus* dehumidification all in one efficient
    package.

    Re: .27
    
    That someone is me.
    
    Marc H.

    
    I have a 3 year old heating system that has a tankless hot water and a
    reserve tank.  With 3 daughters and TONS of wash, we NEVER run out of
    hot water, no mater how many things are running at once.  This exact
    same set-up is being used in a 3-family appartment house in Lowell.  It
    supplies heat and hot water for ALL 3 apartments.
    
    Chris D.

       How does the reserve tank work, and how much do they hold?
                                   Denny

    
    Well, I'm not too good at knowing how it works.  I believe it's 47
    gallon.......maybe 37 gallon (you just had to ask!!)  :^)   Anyway, I
    guess the tankless supplies the hot water.  When the temp coming out
    goes down to a certain level, the tank kicks in and supplements the
    water coming out of the tankless.
    
    Chris D. 

       What keeps the water in the reserve hot? Is it just a plain old hot
    water tank (oil, gas, elect., etc)? 
                                Denny

Some hook up to the tankless. Others do NOT use the tankless and instead are
plumbed as an additional zone. The tank has a heat exchanger inside and is
superinsulated. 

I've seen 40, 60, and 80 gallon jobs.

CdH

    Re: .32
    
    Most of the time, its the tankless unit.
    
    Marc H.

About half the people on my street have the type that do NOT plumb into the
tankless, because they DON'T HAVE a tankless coil. What do you base your
assumption on?

CdH

    Talks with salesman and previous neighbors.  Also sales info from the
    companies......
    
    Marc H.

Somewhere, in the archives of my basment I have some lit on these things. I'll
look this weekend and post something.

CdH

    The unit I looked at was made by "Amtrol" (SP?). As I recall, it was
    blue on the outside.  The local plumbing /alternative energy store
    was selling it as a ~solution~ to my lack of hot water with the
    tankless heater I had.  As I remember, it was 40 Gallons in capacity.
    
    
    Marc H.

Having just had a whole heating system installed, and going through
all of the sales literature, here's was I've found about making hot
water. There are three different ways available for producing hot
water via a boiler. 

1. Is a tankless coil. I think we all know the pros and cons of that
type. 

2. Is a tankless coil with a storage tank. Basically, you use the
boiler's tankless coil to heat the water and then it is stored in the
tank. This system has a special bronze circulator pump that circulates
the water from the tank through the tank-less coil to heat it up. The
special pump is need because it's circulating domestic water. 

The advantage is a large amount of stored hot water to satisfy high
demand situations. Another advantage is that the boiler doesn't have
to fire every time you want to wash your hands. 

3. Is a special water tank with a coil built into it. Hot water from
the boiler (same hot water that goes through your radiators) is
circulated through the coil in the tank to heat the domestic hot water
in the tank. The coil in this tank is another zone of your heating
system, the boiler DOES NOT HAVE A TANKLESS COIL. A popular brand name
of this design around here (Mass) is "Amtrol - Hot Water Maker". 

Advantages of this system are, plenty of hot water, the boiler does
have to fire every time you wash you wash your hands, the boiler does
not have to be kept at a minimum temperature. This is important during
the summer. You don't want to maintain boiler water at 160-190 all day
just to make hot water. The sales info on this system claims that
under normal usage, the boiler may only fire up 5 or 6 times a day to
re-heat the hot water. Another advantage that I foresee, is NOT having
a tankless coil that tend to clog up over the years. And on top of all
that, the "Amtrol - Hot Water Maker" that I just had installed has
Life-Time warranty against leaking. This is a full replacement
warranty too, NOT a pro-rated one. 

By the way, although it sounds like I'm selling the "Amtrol - Hot
Water Maker", well I am (as a happy user)! I've had it for a month now
and it lives up to it's claims so far. Even though it's only a 40
gallon tank, the THIRD of back-to-back LONG hot showers STILL had
plenty of hot water. 

Charly

re: .39

I've never counted, but I think that during the summer ours fires up at most
2-3 times a day, and sometimes just once (say if the only hot water we use is
the shower in the morning).  While I've never paid attention for 24
straight hours, I also don't remember ever hearing it click on except
when we use hot water.

Ours is a Super-Stor.

   Gary

       Any prices available on these options? Thanks fo rthe info BTW.
                                         Denny

    
    Last time I looked, a 40 gallon job was about $400, plumbing extra.
    
    CdH

    Right around the price of a good electric hot water heater.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Electric? Now you're changing the grounds of this discussion. We
    weren't comparing electric water heaters and storage tanks, we were
    comparing storage tanks .vs. OIL FIRED hot water heaters. Depending
    on your electric rate, you could be paying a LOT more with an electric
    water heater than even tankless.
    
    Ask someone who lives in Fitchburg, MA.
    
    CdH
    

>    on your electric rate, you could be paying a LOT more with an electric
>    water heater than even tankless.
>    
>    Ask someone who lives in Fitchburg, MA.
    
Or Sterling Ma.! We pay about .16/KWH now. Thank You Seabrook! 

My average electric bill this past summer was $175-$200. I estimate
that half of that was for Electric Hotwater. We looking for a BIG
reduction in Electric Bills. We switched to an oil system to reduce
the operating costs of making hot water. With an electric rate such as
mine, it won't take long to payback the instalation costs of this
system. 

Charly

    Re: .44
    
    Just stating some  info......no reason to get excited.  
    
    My electric bill per month is around $90 in the summer. I have an
    electric dryer and 7 people in the house. Everyone takes a bath/shower
    per day.  My electric rate is about 9.4 cent/kilowatt hour.
    
    I just think that one OPTION is to have an electric hot water heater
    instead of an inefficient tankless unit coupled with a storage tank.
    Now, is that O.K. to say in this "discusion"???
    
    Marc H.  

    I heat a 4 year old split, about 1300 sq ft.  Total cost for heating
    and hot water is about $400 a year.

    My source of heat and hot water?  One of those inefficient oil tankless
    jobs.  There are only 2 adults in the house, but if the burner was so
    inefficient I think my bill would be alot higher.  Given my current
    low cost I think it would take quite a long time to recoup the cost
    of an Amtrol unit.  I don't think electric is even feasible.

    Just another data point.

    George

    
    The only thing I'm 'getting excited' about is your unsubstantiated
    claim that oil tankless hot water, whether with a storage tank or
    without, is 'inefficient'. I don't believe it is, nor do I believe that
    a seperate oil fired hot water heater is any great deal more cost
    effective, in the long run, than a tankless.
    
    Some facts would be appropriate.
    
    CdH
    

    Re: .48
    
    I just don't have the time to get excited over "quibbling" over
    semantics.  I have stated my opinions based on 20 years of
    owning and paying bills for hot water. I'm not going to post
    my energy bills for you. Period.
    
    End of discusion.
    
    Marc H.

    
    >End of discusion.
    
    Good plan.
    
    Back to the topic. Facts welcome.
    
    CdH

    
    No facts, but chatting with a plumber, a zoned, oil-fired, tank
    was cheaper in that the water stays hotter longer than in a tankless.
    However other costs come into play...
    
    Advantages of an external oil-fired water heater:
    	BTU output of boiler can be lower (cheaper)
    	some savings in oil over the year
    
    Disadvantages of "                            " :
    Cost of tank (inital and replacement)
    extra burner to maintain
    
    I was going to go with the Superstor after mulling it over, but the
    house deal fell thru, so it was moot.
    
    John

    No facts just experience.
    
    I love tankless hot water.
    
    Advantages of tankless:
    
    No "tank" saves space in cellar (important in my case).
    No "tank" to eventually leak and flood basement on you.
    Combined Heating and Hot water installation cheaper.
    Never runs out of hot water.
    Cheaper to run (no facts though).
    Comes up from cold real quick 10 min.(important in my case).
    One system less complex than two therefore lower MTBF.
    
    This tankless setup is in a vacation home. The burner can be wired
    two ways (w/ tankless hotwater and without). The burner is more
    efficient when wired for wout/ tankless because it won't maintain a min.
    temperature. But when we are not there there is no need to maintain it.
    So I put in a switch that switches the boiler from hot water to no
    hot water. When it's real cold out it does not save (boiler runs
    alot anyway) when it's warm out we shut everything off so it does not
    save then either. It saves in spring and fall when the heat has to be
    on but might not call for any (and won't maintain a min temperature
    for hot water ).

Time to stir up this note again.  I'm getting sick of these lukewarm
showers!!!

I've been reading all the notes on this subject (it's amazing how many
there are) and am leaning strongly towards getting a separately zoned
auxiliary storage tank for my &%#^%$@%^^&*@ tankless system. (Superstore,
Boilermate, etc.)

However, before I spend this kind of money (the plumber quoted about $900
installed), there are other lower cost approaches that came up that may or
MAY NOT help the problem:

  - acid flush of coils
  - check/replace tempering valve
  - check/replace flow control/nozzle
  - check/replace aquastat
  - check/replace ... ?

If I do any or all of these things (or other things that I may not know
about yet), what are the odds that I can end up with a well-functioning,
effective tankless system (i.e. good hot long showers).  These notes files
have mostly bad things to say about tankless and I concur.   However, I
have a friend who has one and claims it's terrific.  If they were as
horrible as these notesfiles imply, how could they still be selling
them!!!?!?  In other words, is there reason to hope?  How much time
and money should I expend trying to correct something that may not
be correctable?  (I realize that's partly rhetorical...but what would
you do?)  If I eventually decide to go with the auxilliary tank, would I
have thrown money away doing any of the above?

A couple of months ago, the plumber did something to the tempering valve
that helped somewhat for awhile.  Am I just headed down similar roads
until eventually I spend the 900 bucks anyhow.

No DIY potential here either.  Pro's all the way.  Not mechanically inclined
at all!

Does anyone have experience with doing an acid flush of the coils
in a tankless water heater system?   A plumber I spoke with says I may
need it (7 yr old system), but he doesn't do it.  He said there is a
risk of creating a hole and contaminating water and causing illness.
A friend told of a story where someone had it done by rookies and they
destroyed the furnace.  Obviously, I am hesitant to try this option.

    About a year or so ago I was faced with your decision. I chose the
    separate zone and am most happy with the decision. Previously, while I
    had hot water forever, the QUANTITY was low - screams and howls from
    the shower if someone turned on a tap elsewhere in the house. That
    problem has disappeared.
    
    My problem - yours too I suspect - is that the coils in the furnace are
    becoming corroded, or deposited with minerals,  and closed.
     If you are getting what appears to be
    grit or sand in the inlet filters on a dishwasher, clothes washer, or
    even the little screens on a faucet, then this is absolutely the
    problem. What you are seeing is not grit, but tiny chunks of the
    mineral build-up.
    What your plumber did a while ago was likely to change the mix of very
    hot water which exits your furnace. Fixes the problem only temporarily.
    Another temporary fix is to 'backflush' the coils by forcing water
    through the coils backwards - I did it with a hose hooked up to a
    faucet, draining through the hot water drain on the furnace. A minor,
    and very temporary fix, but it did work.
    I think that if your problem is like mine, the acid wash is also
    temporary - longer, but temporary. Unless you are willing to also
    install a water softener, the fundamental problem of minerals in the
    water will remain, and they WILL build up again. Assuming the coils
    survive the acid wash, which is a corrosive process and can damage the
    coil.
    I bit the bullet and installed a separate, VERY insulated tank on a
    separate zone. And I am most happy with results - not happy with
    spending the money, but I no longer have to fuss with the thing, and
    all house members can take a shower with some degree of assurance that
    the water will not turn icy cold in the middle - usually precisely at
    the point that the head is fully lathered.

Since you asked for *good* tankless hot water stories...

We bought a new house seven years ago with tankless hot water.  It was
great!  We could run the dishwasher, washing machine and shower all at
the same time with a neverending flow of hot water.  Never even had to 
think about it.

Seven years later, we have to be a little more careful.  We try not to
have anything else going when showering.  This mostly a concern in the
winter when the incoming water is colder and requires more time to heat
up to temperature.  We still don't have to worry about it much in the 
summer.

I am sure, eventually, we will have your situation.

Stan

    My choice would be the tempering valve. Several years ago we were
    having the same problem. I thought it was the coils. I remembered my
    folks old system having to be acid cleaned to restore the hot water.
    
    A quick check while someone ran the hot water pointed to the valve. Hot
    line in was HOT, cold line in was COLD, output line was warm. A new
    valve did the trick. The old one was stuck open allowing mostly cold
    water in. Still working fine and a lot less than $900.00.
    
    Peter Duke
    

Well, the plumber came yesterday.  He cleaned the innards of the
valve (felt it would be a waste of money for new innards) and turned
the temp up to max (i.e. NO cold water entering mix).  

That got me enough hot water to get the mirrors steamed up today, 
but I'm sure it won't last long.  I'll ride this one out, but as soon as 
it starts to slip away, no more band-aids.  I'll go with the tank and
start saving my pennies now.  He's bringing literature on SuperStore 
and Amtrol Boilermate so I'll be ready to pick one when the time comes.

how long do oil fired hot water heaters last?

and - when they go is it another $1000?
      or is it less due to replacing just a tank and not the burner?

i am looking at oil fired hot air heat.  the options for hot water are:
     -oil fired separate.
     -hot water boiler with hot air heat exchanger and tankless hw.
     -electric.

the oil fired hot water seems best BUT - if tank goes every three years 
(westboro) and it cost another $1000, then it is not best.  i currently put 
in a new electric (40 gal) every few years at about $150 + $50/month to run.

rsvp,
craig

    
    
    Sound like you might want to change your water!
    
    If its bad and you need a tank often,  you migh want to rent it
    from the E Co.  I think the replace if free if it goes.....
    
    I have a gas heater.  Dosnt seem to cost me much to use at all....
    
    JD

    I too need some direction.  Our MIL's 1940's house has had regular
    heater/oil burner maintenance, yet hot water is good in the morning
    and almost non-existent at nite.  There is no hot water tank.  
    
    Furnace repairman suggested getting a 40 gal stone lined aqua booster.
    Another plumber recommended a 60 gal elec water heater (I'm leaning
    against this, why pay Boston Edison more?)  Can anyone comment on
    either solution or provide a new one?  Personally, I think the whole
    heating system needs revamping, but I certainly don't have $12K
    sitting around doing nothing.  In addition, I don't think the
    system is working well to begin with and I'm living with a lot
    of inefficiency, ie - hot basement, cold upstairs and monthly
    oil bills of $90-$100 for 2 people (curious, is this figure outrageous?)
    
    Thanks - Kathy
    

    Well, I'm currently paying around $50/month for electric water heating
    for a family of 3, so that starts to add up real fast.  I can't
    particularly recommend electric water heat as an option.  
    
    

    	I too have a tankless hot water oil system, but our hot water is
    consistantly good. I can't imagine what could cause the problem you
    describe unless the boiler is not getting the correct service. 
    
    	Have you bounced this off the people doing the service as to *why* 
    this happens ? Has it always happened ? Is it worse in the winter than in
    the summer ? Have you checked the water temperature gauge on the
    furnace to see what difference there is in the morning vs. night time
    water temperature ? Answers to these questions would help narrow down
    the cause of the problem.
    
    	You may be able to assist the system a bit if you truely have a
    warm basement. You might try picking up a used electric hot water tank
    and run the boiler feed water into it first, then run the output to the
    boiler. You don't have to connect the electricity to the water heater 
    since you're just letting the water come up to room temperature (i.e. 
    storage tank). You could remove the insulation around the tank to assist 
    the process.
    
    	This is what I have in my house, however mine was a conversion from
    electric to oil. The electric hot water (storage tank) was already
    there and plumbed in.
    
    BTW - $12k sound awfully steep to upgrade an existing oil system with a 
    new (more efficient) boiler/burner. If your system is truely that old
    (1940's), an upgrade may pay for itself in a relatively short timeframe.
    
    	Ray

    We heat a 4 yr old house, a 2800 sq ft Colonial, with forced hot water/oil 
    furnace and a StoreStor(that's a seperate 40 gal water tank heated by a 
    seperate zone off the furnace) for about 900 gallons of oil/year. 
    Since oil is about $0.90/gal, that's approximately $810/year or
    $67/month.  We have alot of attic insulation(14 inches) and set
    thermostats.  It's 67 in the daytime, 62 at nite.  Location is Bedford Mass.
    
    	I suspect that you could use a lot of insulation in you attic,
    storm windows, chaulking etc.  Then, after throughly insulating
    everything, get a new furnace and "SuperStor"  seperate water tank.
    	I think that your hot water heating coils in the your furnace may be
    clogged.  It's a very common phenomenon in old water pipes.  The
    calcium buildup inside the heating tubes in the furnace reduces the 
    efficiency of the furnace in heating your hot water by acting as an 
    insulator between the furnace heat and the water in the hot water heating 
    coil.
    
    	My Father-in-Law has the same problem in this house.  He does not
    have enough hot water for a reasonable length shower and he pays
    $1500/year in Boston to heat a 1600 sq ft ranch.  The attic in his 45
    yr old house has 1.5 inches of insulation.  I'll be doing the work as
    soon as it gets a bit warmer. 
    to be insulating and (having someone) replace this 1940 era furnace/tankless
    water heater with something a bit newer :-) 

    	Wow, $.90 a gallon ! I'm only paying $.75 a gallon in Manchester,
    N.H. and I saw it for $.68 a gallon in Haverhill, Ma..
    
    	The calcium deposits are what I was thinking too. They normally
    clean what they can each time they do the service work, but I imagine
    over time that they get pretty crudded up and beyond cleaning. Does
    anyone know if you can replace just the coils ? If the hot water was OK 
    at some point, I suspect that it could be again if these coils could be 
    replaced. 
    	
    	When they do the service work, they check the efficiency of the system. 
    There is a ballpark number as to how much each % point translates into in 
    gallons/year of oil. I don't remember it off-hand, but if you get it, it 
    will probably give you some idea as to the payback period of an upgrade.
    Just compare the efficiency rating of your unit with a newer more
    efficient unit.
    
    	I may be wrong, but I think the $12k would be to install a "complete"
    system from scratch (i.e. baseboard and all). If you just want to do a
    boiler/burner upgrade, I would expect $3k installed would be closer to
    the real number.

    re -1   Yeah, $0.90 sees a bit high but there arn't may oil dealers
    in the area and they're all about the same.  The price includes ree
    yearly check-up and a 24hr parts and labor service contract.  If
    anything breaks they'll fix in free.  I figure the circulator pump will go
    south soon so, do I get another oilman now or wait another year?  :-) 
    knowing Muprpy law, what ever I chose to do, it'll be the more
    expensive option.
    	My thoughts about the calcium build-up are that the build-up is inside 
    the hot water heating coils(not the baseboard heat heating coils) and 
    therefore it isn't likely to be seen, cleaned or checked.   Anyone know
    how hard it is to replace the hot water heating coils in an old oil
    fired tankless furnace? 
    
    	Regarding costs to replace just the furnace, a friend just had his
    oil fired/FWH furnace with tankless hot water replaced for $3.1K(in
    10/94).  This is an existing installation, just remove and replace the 
    furnace.  The new equipment was all top of the line stuff,
    Weil-McHanon(?) furnace, eckett burner etc.   The quote of $12K sounds 
    like a very high price.  It could be that the guy just wanted to set
    your expectations at the high end and then come in lower.  At $12K for
    a furnace, that should be pretty easy. :-)  
    
                             
    

 >                                                                      Does
 >     anyone know if you can replace just the coils ? If the hot water was OK 
 >     at some point, I suspect that it could be again if these coils could be 
 >     replaced. 
    
    
    We had the tankless hot water coils in our furnace replaced a few
    years ago. Not a cheap operation (ours weren't off-the-shelf
    available, so they had to be custom made); I seem to recall a price
    on the order of $500 or so.

    We just had the coils replaced in our furnace last month.  The water
    was hot enough for all usage; sinks, dishwasher, washer, and shower,
    but the tub, without a "restricted flow", started hot, but got cool
    real quick.  
    
    Found the coils to be clogged.  The total was $210...$110 for the
    coils, with about 3 hours labor.  
    

>    The calcium deposits are what I was thinking too. They normally
>    clean what they can each time they do the service work, but I imagine

    Not really, the deposits build up on the inside of the coils. This
    is not something that's routine or easy to see, service or clean.
    You can have an acid flush done, to clean them but I think that
    this is a fairly involved plumbing project.

    $500 to replace then seems pretty steep, I would have opted for a
    seperate water maker/storage unit that runs as a seperate zone for
    the same or a little more money than this. This is an excellent
    solution and would solve ALL of your hot water heating problems
    for good.

>    either solution or provide a new one?  Personally, I think the whole
>    heating system needs revamping, but I certainly don't have $12K

    This is VERY HIGH! I had a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a Weil-McClain boiler,
    Becket burner, 3 heating zones and hot water maker zone with
    seperate pumps, a 330 gallon oil tank, raditors, electrical, three
    Honywell thermostas and wiring installed for $7,500

    re .29
    
       When we purchased our last home, the home inspector commented that
    the hot water supply didn't last long enough. Before we closed on the
    purchase, we split the cost with the sellers to have a new tankless 
    coil installed (if I remember correctly this cost us about $90.00).
    The new tankless worked fine for approximately 5 years before we 
    started to run out of hot water after 2 showers in the morning. We 
    opted to have the 40 gallon Aqua-Stor installed and never ran out of 
    hot water again. The tank on the Aqua-Stor is super insulated and
    allowed us to save on our oil consumption. I'd highly recommend the
    Aqua-Stor tank as long as you believe you'll stick with the present
    furnace. Even if you decide to purchase the new furnace at a later 
    date, you can just get one with a tankless built in and just connect
    it up to the Aqua-Stor.
    
       I'd also suggest you try and understand why there's hot water in 
    the morning but not at night before you decide what you need to
    purchase.
    
    Bob

    re:37
    
    	When I have the service done on my Weil-Mclain boiler, there is a
    plate they remove on the top and they take a long skinny brush and clean
    something. I just assumed it was the coils. What else could it be ?
    
    	Ray

>    plate they remove on the top and they take a long skinny brush and clean
>    something. I just assumed it was the coils. What else could it be ?
    
    Those are fins on the outside of the boiler. Hot gases from the
    combustion of the oil (or gas) flows over these fins to heat the
    boiler and the water which is inside. Soot from the fuel combustion
    collects on them. Cleaning these IS a part of the regular
    maintenance, especially with an oil system.

    If your boiler has a tankless domestic water heater, that is a
    coil of tubing that sits inside of the boiler and its hot water.
    This coil is usually attached to the boiler as a part of a plate
    that is bolted on to one of the sides or front of the boiler.

    Cold water ( to be made hot) for your faucets and bath enters one
    end of the tankless coil, circulates through picking heat from the
    coil which is siting in the hot boiler water and then exits the
    other end of the tankless coil as hot water.

    The two water "systems" are separate, the boiler water is
    stagnate, the same water circulates through the boiler and your
    radiators all of the time. The boiler water may even contain an
    antifreeze solution and/or a rust inhibitor.

    The water inside the coil is fresh water from your cold water
    supply. It is the inside of this coil which tends to collect
    mineral deposits over time. The deposits both insulate the tubing
    and restrict the water flow. In a typical set up, cold water only
    makes one pass through this coil in order to be heated, if the
    tube is inefficient because of mineral deposits, it's easy to see
    how you can "run out of" hot water.

    To be cleaned, a plumber needs to disconnect the inlet and may be
    the outlet side plumbing, introduce an acid solution, wait a
    period of time, flush out the deposits, hope that the deposits
    don't clog the tubing or that the acid eats a hole in the tubing,
    and then re-connect the plumbing. The coil can also be replaced in
    many cases.

    This concludes Hot Water Boilers 101.

    Extra credit: 

    Though common called a Hot Water Boiler, the water does not really
    boil, it's only heated to about 180 degrees. 

    Unless of course you have a steam system, but then that's a little
    different, but not a whole lot.

 >$500 to replace then seems pretty steep, I would have opted for a
 >seperate [sic] water maker/storage unit that runs as a seperate [sic] zone for
 >the same or a little more money than this. This is an excellent
 >solution and would solve ALL of your hot water heating problems
 >for good.
    
    This of course presumes you've got room for the extra footprint. Our
    utility room is full; we had to move out a workbench to move in the
    oil tank when the state rules said we had to remove our underground
    oil tank. $500 is cheap compared to building a new house...
    

    Reply to my note .28.  Many thanks to your replies and others' offers
    to help. I am now a much happier/warmer person. 
    
    We finally bit the bullet (my husband didn't want to hear
    my complaining any longer!)  and had
    a 40 gal stone lined (10 year warranty) water tank booster
    installed this past Monday.  What an incredible difference!!
    I simply cannot believe my MIL lived w/o adequate heat/hot  water 
    for the past several years.  That sucker is big, but I'm not
    complaining!    Let me tell you some of the changes we've
    experienced in event anyone else can benefit from our decision
    process:
    
      1)  We now have scalding hot water.  I haven't tested to full capacity
    	  since we try to limit daily water usage ($$), but don't
    	  anticipate problems.
    
      2)  Turning thermostat up slightly causes house to heat faster
    	  and temp on thermo is now higher (68 upper, 72 lower).
    	  Before you'd have to turn it on to 72 to start heat.
    
    	  House also heats faster (1/2 vs. 1 hour before)
    
      3)  All radiators now work fully.  Before some units would
    	  only heat half the vents, the other side would be cold.
    	  At times it's almost a train station around there,
    	  so many whistles are blowing from the valve adjustment!
    
      4)  The basement isn't as hot near the furnace. 
    
    Our system turned out to be running very inefficiently because
    it worked so hard to generate both heat/hot water.  (which I suspected
    all along).  Haven't had an oil fill up since the installation
    so I don't know how much less/extra oil we'll use.
    
    In short, I'm thrilled.  P.S. Labor/materials/electrical hookup
    cost was $890.  Maybe a little steep, but I feel I got what
    my husband paid for!  
    
    Kathy
    
                        

    
    A question to those of you who have converted from electric water 
    heaters to gas (or preferably oil):
    
    	    Did your electric bill drop as much as expected?
    
    My 66 gal electric water heater is dying... and I'm thinking of 
    converting to an 50 gal standalone oil fired unit.
    
    								- Mac

    A question to those of you who have converted from electric water 
    heaters to gas (or preferably oil):
    
    	    Did your electric bill drop as much as expected?

	    I convereted from electric to propane.  No big decrease in 
	the electric bill and propane is fairly expensive.  The elctric
	water heater we replaced was a $6/month rental from Mass. Electric.

					Tim

    
    	I converted from Electric to Oil heat two years ago.  My summer 
    electric bills (kitchen, laundry, lights,'hot water') dropped from the 
    $75-90 range to the $40-60 range.  This is for a family of 4 in a house.
    
    			Your mileage may vary,
    
    					DanF

	This looked like the best place for this note, so here goes...

	I have well water, and heat it with the oil burner (tankless).
	For the last 3 or 4 days, when the shower is on, there is a
	rapping sound coming from the basement. It seems to be coming
	from the area of the furnace, but it only lasts 10-20 seconds
	and by the time I get down there its stopped. The weird part
	is that while it's rapping, the hot water pressure in the
	shower goes way down (to none?) This 10-20 seconds of rapping 
	may happen only once or twice during a shower. I don't think
	this is a case of the pipes rapping...whould that cause a
	huge pressure drop? Also, the house is 1.5 years old, and this
	just began this week.

	Anyone have any ideas on what this might be? I'd hate to have
	to get an equity loan just to call a plumber :)

	One more thing: what is the grey cylinder that is connected
	to the hot water line just above the furnace? It appears to
	be large enough to hold about 2 gallons of water.

	Thanks in advance
	Ken

	I'd say you've got something loose in your piping - 
part of a valve or something, that floats around and gets
stuck (causing the noise and the reduced flow).  It could be
one of the valves, or perhaps the mixing valve itself.  Unless
you like plumbing work, you'll need to call a plumber or your
oil burner service - they often do this sort of stuff better
than a plumber.

	The grey tank sounds like an expansion tank - but it'd
normally be attached to the heating loop pipes, not your domestic
hot water supply.  Perhaps you have one there too....

    To the rapping
    
    On a tankless heater, you have a mixing valve on the pipe coming out of
    the furnace. Mixes the VERY hot furnace water with your cold supply
    water to make plain old hot water for your shower, etc. I would bet
    that something is sticking in that valve. Try adjusting the valve one
    way or the other a little bit.

There was no mixing valve in our tankless hot water system when we first moved
into our house.  But there is now.

.22 did say that the rapping happens only once or twice during a shower, and the
pressure goes way down at the same time.  Perhaps this symptom is related to the
well pump coming on, which would happen once or twice depending on how much
water he's using.

Ken, maybe you can narrow the problem down somewhat:

	Do you know if anything at all changed in the last 3 or 4 days?

	Are you sure the rapping sound is coming from your boiler area?
	Could it be coming from the well tank area?

	Is it only when showers are being taken?
	How about when turning on the hot water in the kitchen sink?

	Is it only with hot water usage?

	Turn on the shower or kitchen faucet and go to the basement while
	it's still on, so you can observe the symptom yourself when
	it happens.

-Chris

    re:22
    
    	As someone else suggested, going downstairs while someone else
    takes a shower would help isolate the problem a lot. My *guess* is that
    you may have a sticky anti-backflow valve.
    
    	Most (if not all) so called tankless oil-fired hot water systems keep 
    a couple of gallons of water heated in the boiler. Hot water, just like 
    hot air, rises. Since the furnace is usually at the lowest point in the 
    house, the anti-backflow valve is what prevents the hot water in the boiler 
    from rising up the pipes.
    
    	I know they put these valves in the heating loops. Otherwise,
    you'd have heat all the time. I believe the same valve exists for the 
    domestic hot water, which is why you must let a hot water faucet run 
    before it gets hot.
    
    	The valves use a small sinking ball to cover a hole that the input
    water flows through. When there is a demand for water, the water
    flow pushes the ball up and allows the water to flow through the valve 
    in one direction. When the water flow stops, the ball sinks and covers 
    the hole. 
    
    	The ball is made of a heat insulating material (rubber ?). This 
    isolates the heated water on the input side of the valve from the water 
    on the output side of the valve. This provides the thermal barrier so that 
    the water cannot conduct its heat up into the house unless it's needed.
    
    	I suspect what may be happening is that the ball may be getting
    stuck and/or oscillating. This would cause the rapping sound your 
    hearing and it would likely reduce the flow considerably.
    
    	Again, this is just a guess. If you don't feel comfortable working
    on this yourself, I'd second the comment about having a furnace guy come 
    out. This is their specialty and they are usually as (or more) experienced 
    as plumbers in this area, and a bit cheaper too.
    
    	Ray
    
    
    P.S. If you do have a furnace guy come out, it's well worth your time
    to be there while he's working on your system. Most of these people are
    more than happy to answer questions and explain how your system works,
    which is where I got most of my limited knowledge from ;-)

       >Do you know if anything at all changed in the last 3 or 4 days?

	Actually, yes. It hasn't happened at all since Tuesday.
	This morning I spent 10 minutes in the basement while
	my wife showered, and no problems.
	
       >Are you sure the rapping sound is coming from your boiler area?
       >Could it be coming from the well tank area?

	Definitely not from the well tank area which in the opposite
	corner of the cellar.
	
       >Is it only when showers are being taken?
       >How about when turning on the hot water in the kitchen sink?

	It has happened at other sinks as well.

       >Is it only with hot water usage?

	yes

       >Turn on the shower or kitchen faucet and go to the basement while
       >it's still on, so you can observe the symptom yourself when
       >it happens.

	I'll try it again tomorrow morning.

	Thanks for all the replies. If this starts up again, I'll
	call my oil company and have them send out a tech. It's
	the type of problem that will surely not occur when he's
	there though :)  The explanation in -1 sound reasonable
	to me. I'll be sure to post the cause if/when it's found.

	Thanks again
	Ken

I had a similar problem with my slop sink. The water pressure was pitiful and
the pipes would make quite a racket.  All I did was to replace some bad
washers in the slop sink faucet, and the problem went away ... steady water
flow now and no knocking pipes.

My guess is that the bad washers was letting partial water through in a
pulsating sort of motion ... even though the water flow didn't seem to be
pulsating ... causing the pipes way down the chain to knock.

It was really simple and it worked for me,

Rob

    This seems to be the note where people discuss indirect water heaters,
    though not for a long time.  Does anyone have more recent experience?
    My tankless coil appears to be badly clogged and I've been thinking of 
    replacing it with an Amtrol Boilermate.  My plumber says that Boilermate 
    is the worst of the indirect water heaters and that "Superstore" is
    best.  (And no, he does not get a better commision -- he'd be happy
    if I buy it instead of him, so that his money isn't tied up in it).
    
    So, does anyone have recent experience with indirect water heaters,
    of any brand other than the Boilermate?  For those who have read this
    far without knowing what an indirect water heater is, it's a tank that
    is heated off a separate heating system zone.  This provides the 
    advantages of having a tank without requiring a separate burner --
    and also has some disadvantages, of course.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Larry

    Well, all I can say is that I've owned two houses with an Amtrol
    Boilermate and have never had a problem.  I doubt there's much
    difference between the Boilermate and the Superstor.
    
    				Steve

 The same outfit makes the SuperStor and the SolorStor, the only 
 difference is the label and the price.  Used to be about 2:1 with
 a big break to promote solor.  They are quite expensive and stainless
 steel. 

 My SolorStor failed (defective) after 3 years, and after the vendor
 went Chapter 11.  The manufacturer located me a spare and arranged
 a free swap.  The new unit was SuperStor and has been in for 10 years.

 Bruce

    RE: .242
    I have also owned a Boilermate for at least 4 years without any
    problem.
    
    //John
    

    We have a Superstore in our house.  We had an indirect water heater
    installed when the house was built, all 5 of our neighbors got tankless
    water heaters.  Now, 6 years later we havn't had a problem with our
    Superstore and 3 of our neighbors have changed to the same brand
    indirect heater. If I had to do it over again, I can't see any reason
    not to go with the Superstore indirect water heater.    

    I have had a SuperStor for five years in my house.  It's heated as
    another zone on the oil furnace (FHW for the rest of the house). Most
    of the time it works well, but I do have a problem that when using a
    large quantity of hot water; the temperature is fine for quite a while,
    then drops for a while (5+ minutes?), then comes back.  Is there a
    setting that I can change to help this?  Is it possible that it was
    installed wrong so that the thermostat is too high in the tank?  How
    would I be able to tell?

    Thanks for any info,

    ---Phil

    Folks,
    
    Looking around the web, I found lots of info on the Amtrol Boilermate
    and a couple of other brands, but I couldn't find any references to
    Superstor.  Nor have I found it yet in local (Worcester MA area)
    stores.  Unless I can find some more data soon, I'll go with the
    Boilermate -- about $672 at Home Depot, lists for about $950.  
    Does anyone know a manufacturer name for Superstor?
    
    Regarding the SuperStor heater that temporarily runs out of water
    after 5 minutes... from what I've read, the problem is that the
    recovery time isn't fast enough.  Recovery time is the time required to
    heat up the incoming water.  The three solutions that I know of are:
    
    	1)  Use a lower flow of hot water
    	2)  Increase the temperature of the boiler water (hi and low limits)
    	3)  Increase the low limit on the Superstor
    	4)  Get a bigger water heater tank
    
    4 is obviously impractical.  3 may work -- if the low limit is too low,
    then the Superstor may not start heating new water quickly enough.
    2 may or may not be possible -- I understand that the boiler shouldn't 
    really be set about 180, but if it's at 140, you may be able to
    improve the recovery time by raising it.  1 is the most practical 
    solution -- with a lower flow rate, the tank should never run out 
    because it should be able to heat the incoming water fast enough.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    another vote for a superstor. i had one installed when i converted the
    house from electric heat six years ago. never had a problem. i had it
    oversized a bit (40gal i think), since i was at the time thinking of
    a whirlpool bath. never did the bath yet, but NEVER run out of hot
    water even if two people are in the shower at the same time !!!
    just one thing my installers didnt do, which i could only assme was 
    a oversite ;-| is to have flow control valve put in just like it 
    was(and is) a separate zone...
    
    any plumbing/heating supply wholesale/retail place should have them.
    
    jim