Conference 7.286::home_work

    What about buying unfinished wood ones and painting them??

Frank

Painted wood!!!???  The thought makes me shudder!  I've lived in a lot of old
dumps, and the thing that bugged me most was all the painted over wood. I'd
never paint over wood!

Jim. 

Make 'em yourself.  Lamination only requires a table saw and a
router.  The cabinets can look really good if you use good
hardware.

R.

    Painting wood cabinets sounds like the best thing for the
    situation described in the original note.  Did you think
    of doing that?
    

    Take a look in a professional cabinet shop.
    
    My wife designed and selected all of the ingredients in our redone
    kitchen. She chose IMPERIA cabinets. They are all laminated surfaces
    over something (not cheap by any means) she almost blew the budget
    and had to cut back on a few of the cabinets she wanted. We still
    have the space for them and the desire. The styles and colors are
    guarenteed for five years.
    
    -boB

    A year ago I moved into a new house and had to put mirrors in 3
    baths.....called a glass company and got prices.....since one
    piece was about 8' long they advised it would be best to have
    them install it......so I agreed.....now all three mirrors, at
    the bottom, are showing black splotches....the worst one being 
    about 1/2 inch high by 3 inches....
    
    When I called the glass company to complain they said that first
    of all they normally dont install mirrors?????(I got their name
    out of the yellow pages)....and secondly, I need to put a strip
    of silicone on the bottom of each mirror so the moisture doesnt
    seep in????????
    
    Of course all arguments  dealing with why they didnt do this
    when they installed the mirrors proved fruitless.....at this
    point I, like a lot of readers here, feel that I have been
    really taken....and am considering suing his butt....yess
    suing....for some satisfaction.
    
    Also having problems with my Paving contractor over the driveway
    he put in but thats actively being worked....
    
    So has anyone else heard of putting silicone around a mirror?
    Or has he sold me something thats defective?????
    
    Im telling you we consumers get taken for a ride and I for one
    am sick of it.......
    
    Rick

    I had mirrors installed and never heard of using silicone on it.
    The typical installation is done with a metal track, metal or
    plastic clips.
    
    Do you mean the silver stuff is coming off of the back?  Sounds
    pretty strange to me.
    
    -a

    
    		         	Who are they ?
    
    	Why don't you list his name here so that others know to stay
    away from these !@#$%^&*(
    
                                                        
    
    					rjr

    Silicon will disolve the mirror coating on the back of the mirror.
    This happened to a freind who installed his own mirrors. He ended
    up bringing his mirror back to the glass store, where they trimmed
    the edge off the mirror at no cost to him. This removed the black
    ring around the mirror but he also ended up with a smaller mirror.
    
    

    If the silver is coming off the back of the mirror that is a case
    of poor (read: incompetent) installation.  The jerks did the same
    thing to my mirrors.  This is caused by water getting behind the
    mirror at the bottom.  The solution is not ugly silicon, but to remove
    the mirror and raise it about 1/4" by putting a couple of the little
    plastic clamps under the mirror.  That way the bottom of the mirror
    is not sitting in the condensation and splashed water to which a mirror
    is exposed.                                                    
    
    Stan

    re: .4
    
    I realized I was a little unclear here.  In my case, the house was
    new also and the mirrors were installed above the vanity such that
    the lower edge of the mirror was resting on the vanity.  The water
    and condensation run down the mirror and form a small puddle at
    the bottom of the mirror.  Capillary action will pull it up behind
    the mirror.  This is the effect you are trying to avoid.  Therefore,
    if you raise the mirror it will not be resting in the puddle.  That
    should solve the problem.

    Well, first of all let me say thanks for the info.....misery loves
    company.....yes, the stuff is coming off the BACK of the mirror..
    it seems this is a case of poor installation......however, they
    PASTED the mirrors to the wall.......and the mirrors are sitting
    on the back splashboard.....
    
    Wayne Glass.....Salem, N.H.
    
    
    Rick

    Small claims court might still be a viable idea.  If you have proof
    that they installed them, that the installation was obviously faulty
    and that they have been in the business long enough to know better,
    you can probably get a judgement in your favor.
    
    A bead of silicon at the bottom may prevent further decay.
    
    It looks like your next seven years are going to be tough ones if
    you want good mirrors.  Good luck.
    
    Stan              

    It seems to me that if you wait long enough you'll not be able to
    present a viable claim.  I would go for it right now and take them
    to court.  If you submit the paperwork and have the summons delivered
    to them that will generally shake them into action before you have
    to go to court.  I don't think you'll find the cost of this very
    high.
    
    You can also try sending the owner a registered letter explaining your
    problem and your intent to sue if you cannot get satisfaction.
    
    Picture yourself another year down the road with a mirror that looks
    like a black wall.  Good luck getting them to do anything then and
    good luck replacing it if they've pasted it to the wall.  It will
    be a real mess.  

    Take pictures for evidence.  Easier than trying to explain what
    the problem is. Just show them a picture.

    re.9
    
    	how do you take a picture of a mirror???????????????
    
    Alan
    

    Hmmmmmmm....I guess what you get is a picture of someone taking
    a picture of someone in a mirror......and a lot of flash spots..
    
    Hey, you guys are right....Im going to make one more call to
    that guy then take out papers ($10....Im taking my builder to
    small claims) and take him to court.......and I might ALSO
    have to file a claim against my hot top guy who screwed up
    my driveway, came back a few months ago, said YEP, we messed
    it up and well fix it...free....and I cant get him to come
    back....
    
    There going to get to know me at the Plaistow Court :-)
    
    Rick

    I would also get estimates from a few other glass companies to rectify
    the situation.  The more facts, figures and pictures you have, the
    better your case is.

    You take a picture of a mirror the same way you take a picture through
    a pane of glass:  stand at an angle to the surface to be photographed:
    
                   [====================] (mirror or glass)
                           / \
                          /   \
                         /     \
                        /       \
                     camera       (flash or reflection goes this
                                   way, not back into camera lens)
    
    Jim

    Before going to small claims court, watch at least 2 weeks of People's
    Court on TV.  Judge Wapner is great!  Listen to what he tells the
    turkeys who come in and say "duh, he screwed me".  Get estimates,
    pictures, your old receipt showing you paid for installation, anything
    else.  If the mirror has to be removed from the wall and it is glued
    on, this job is not going to be cheap or neat!  Going to small claims
    court is a blast.  If I had more time I'd probably haul half the
    people that ever did any work for me in there.
    
    One word of warning.  Winning is only half the battle, the other
    half is collecting.  Something like 2/3 of the plaintiffs win in
    small claims but many are unable to collect.  If the jerk refuses
    to pay you have keep dragging him in (if he shows at all).  Good
    luck!
    
    Stan

    re: .13
    
    You learn something new every day in here. 
    
    -joet 

    oops....I guess if Im going to go to court I better make sure I
    file the claim against the RIGHT company.....not Wayne Glass (
    sorry about that)....the culprits are:
    
        CRAFTSMAN GLASS & ALUMINUM CO, Salem, N.h.
    
    BTW, I called another glass company and they told me before
    installing one should varnish a few inches on the back of the
    mirror.....if you dont, within 5 years it will start turning
    black from all the chemicals you use on the mirror!!!!!!!
    
    Now if I can get him to put that in writing and sign it Ill
    have another piece of hard evidence.....
    
    Ive been having trouble with my hot top guy as well and Ive
    decided to take him to court as well.....I already have a
    case coming up against my builder so looks like Im heading
    for a triple header.....
    
    Rick

    RE: .16
    
    Are small claims procedures cheaper by the dozen???
    
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm starting to wonder
    why you are having trouble with *3* different contractors.  Is there
    a common thread that may have caused all these difficulties?  Such
    as not having things in writing, not asking for and checking
    references, etc...  Were these contractors all the lowest bidder
    for the project?  Did you get their names in this file?
    
    As was mentioned in some other previous notes, I hope you have tried
    to resolve your differences (usually means compromising in a
    non-threatening manner) before going to small claims court.  Most
    honest, respectable people will stand behind their work, if given
    the chance.  Some just don't give a damn either.  Did you have the
    extreme misfortune to get *3* of latter???
    
    Just curious.  Good luck in your small claims cases!  Please let
    us know how it turns out.
    
    Phil

    Well to start with I should have retained a lawyer when I bought
    my house.....Heres my story
    
    Case #1.....me vs builder.....looked at house and it wasnt completed
    when I bought it....were walking thru and he specifically points
    out that the house has as one of its features built in vac system...
    thats nice.....the house is unlandscaped and the shutters arent
    on (Im talking about 13 pair in the front).....so the house is
    complete and we sign papers......Hey Mr builder, where are the shutters
    and central vac.....What do you mean we dont get them?????
    
    So after talking and talking it became apparent I was going to have
    to sue.....so I filed a month ago on the 18th and Im waiting to
    hear.....
    
    Potential case #2.....driveway.....seems when they put in the
    driveway...which is 250 ft to the apron, and the apron is 30x50...
    the equipment broke down and they did it by hand.....and had to
    put the truck headlights on the driveway to finish.....Do you
    know how bumpy that driveway is....plus instead of a smooth finish
    on top its rough stone.....called the guy.....after 16 calls he
    finally sent his foreman out to look....Yep he says, must have 
    been a bad batch of ashphalt.....sure is bumpy.....dont worry,
    well put a finish coat on it.....So after waiting two months, and
    10 calls Ive HAD IT waiting for this turkey (Ace Paving by the way)
    So.....Im trying to find out how much a finish coat will cost and
    figuring it will be about $1500, will file against him.
    
    Case #3...mirrors.....went to the company today....owner wasnt in
    going back monday to talk face to face with him and if he wont
    replace the mirrors, then its off to court...
    
    So, I dont think its anything in particular....it just happened
    that in buying a new house, and having to hire people to do this
    type of work, Ive discovered just how much schluck work SOME
    people do....
    
    I had all the rugs put in....outstanding job.....tile in the foyer..
    the guy was fantastic....parquey floor in the dining room....super
    job.......and Ive just decided that Im not going to lie back and
    take it....
    
    You know, its like being a customer in a restaurant.....a number
    of years back if I was served something that I didnt order, i.e.,
    I wanted it PINK not well done. I used to accept it.....NOT ANY
    MORE!!!!!! If I order it medium, and it isnt medium...BACK IT GOES...
    
    Anyway, Im going to use the advice given here....pictures or the
    mirror,going to try to get statements from other glass places...Ive
    talked to them about this and evidentally, the guy who did mine
    didnt know what he was doing.....so Im going to get all the facts,
    pictures, and statements I can gather......and if this guy wont
    settle OUT of court.....well, Ill surely keep everyone posted
    
    Rick

    Well, I went to the glass company this morning....the owner said
    that a bead of silicone should be placed on the bottom of the mirror
    to keep the moisture out.....he has agreed to replace the three
    mirrors....but I have to get the old ones out, and install the
    new ones....he claims they will not be difficult to get off the
    wall..
    
    That being the case, I dont think Im going to paste them back up..
    going to use those screws......and varnish the back of the mirrors
    as a glass company told me.....
    
    Rick

    Well, went to court against the builder last Thursday....we both
    said our piece.....then the judge says hell take it under advisement..
    What a bummer....so now Im waiting for the court to contact me with
    the outcome.........
    
    ...And I felt GREAT when the judge told be, ala Judge Wopner, that
    it was my responsibility to show a PREPONDERANCE of evidence....I
    was just WAITING for him to say that......ah, the judicial system...
    
    Rick

    
    Hi Everybody,
    
    I'm looking for one (or possibly more) vanities for my bathroom(s).
    I've looked at the basic places (Grossies, Moores, Slummervilles,
    etc.), but I wonder if someone could give me any more ideas for
    places with a good selection and reasonable quality/price ratios?
    
    I'm looking for something made of wood, and somewhat traditionally
    styled (to fit in a 90 year old Colonial Revival).  It doesn't have
    to be too authentic (cause I probably can't afford it), but if you 
    know of those places it might be interesting to look.
    
    I'm sort of open to wood types (cherry, maple, pine, oak).  I 
    really love cherry, but that seems a lot less common than oak.
    
    Thanks in Advance,
    Therese 
    

    Try Penny Pincher

    
    You might also try County Supply on Westford Rd. in Lowell.
    They seemed to have a good selection last time
    I was in there---about 6 months ago...

    Try Spags.  I forgot the name of the brand, but they make oak
    cabinets which most places carry, and they also make solid oak
    counters for vanities.  Somerville and Spags both carry them.
    Anybody know the name of the company that makes the oak countertops?
    

    Try Scratch and Dent in Fitchburg.  They are about 1/2 retail
    price from what I have been told.  I haven't been there but
    several people I know have.  Some items are scratched etc,
    but most you can't find anything wrong with them.  They supposedly
    have a large selection.

    Try P F O'Connor, I saw quite a few there this weekend, but didn't
    check em out real close. There's one in Revere and I guess one
    opening soon near Woburn or Wilmington?

    	People, I need some sugestions, I bought a 48" bathroom vanity
    base for a bath that I'm redoing and it has no top!  Do they make
    preformed countertops for 18" cabinets???  I dont want the one pc
    fake marble top and sink.  I know that w/some TLC and a router w/I
    dont have that you can make your own formica top, but I'm sure theres
    a learning curve there which I dont have time for now.
    
    	Any suggestions????
    

	Premade tops for vanities are available in 18" depth.  You will 
	probably have to order it, because most home centers/lumber 
	yards only stock 24" depth.  The cost will be about the same as 
	24"(what you save on size you lose on special order).  You can 
	order them finished on one or both ends, and with or without a 
	back splash.

	You will still have to cut your own sink opening, but that only requires
	a scroll-saw and drill.  The sink will cover any saw marks.  The area 
	that the saw will touch should be covered with masking tape to prevent
	scratches. 

	Brian 

	When the guy who did our counters in the new house cut the formica 
	tops, he used a special blade designed to not chip the formica.  The
	blade has the teeth pointing the opposite direction as regular blades.

	When I did the bathroom vanity in my rental house I got one of these 
	blades and it cut the formica perfectly.  I did not want to chance
	using a regular blade and ruining 42" of counter top.  I must note
	that I had to search a number of stores to find one.  It is for
	cutting formica "from the top".

	Bob.
	

    Old House Journal has adds in the back for period style vanities.
    As an alternative, think about buying an old dresser, desk, night
    stand or piece of furniture and cut a hole in the top for a sink.
    You can buy a piece of furniture in any wood and/or style to fit
    the furnishings in your home or period of the home itself.

    Kitchen cabinets can be converted into vanities.  Kitchen cabinets
    are 24 inches deep while bath cabinets are 18 inches deep.  Kitchen
    cabinets are 36 inches tall while bath are 32.  If you make your
    own counter top of tile or corain or special order Formica, it would
    work just as well.  
    
    I am 6'2" and the shorter bath cabinets are a real nuisance for
    me.  When I replaced mine, I raised the cabinet 3 extra inches so
    that it was more comfortable.  
    
    Don't let convention restrict your decorating.

    My husband is remodeling our bathroom, and has just installed 
    the vanity top (he's building the base).  There are walls
    on both sides, since it's set in a "cubbyhole".  The problem is
    that there are approximately 1/2" crevices on both sides between the
    sink & the walls.
    
    My question is: what would be a good way to fill or mask the cracks?
    My husband is thinking of caulking, but I think the crack is too
    wide for this to look good.  I thought some kind of trim or molding,
    but because of the backsplash and shelf (see diagram), I'm not sure
    what would work here.  Also, keep in mind that the vanity top is
    all one piece (onyx), and has a very slight lip around the edge.
    
    Any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated!
    
    Deb
    


                "BIRDSEYE" VIEW
                      
             ++------------------++
     SHELF---++->                ||      
             ++------------------+|<--- BACKSPLASH IS HERE
             ||       SINK       ||
             ||      ------      ||
     1/2" -->||    /        \    ||<-- 1/2"
     CREVICE ||    \        /    || CREVICE
             ||      ------      ||
             ++------------------++
             |                    |
             |                    |
             |<----- WALLS ------>|               
             |                    +-------------
             |
             |



                 SIDE VIEW

                           SHELF-> ====|
                                   |   |
             +-----         -------+   |
             |     \_______/           |
             |                         |


    

It sounds to me like a reasonable approach would be to get some molding that's
about 3/4" wide and either nail/glue it all around the sink.  You could get
cove, 1\4 round, or any other type that might give you the look you want.  I'd
then either paint it (if that's what you want) or seal it with polyurethane.

In any case, you'd probably get a lot of water on it and therefore it should be
rugged enough to take it.

-mark

    If you are installing fixtures you are too far along in the remodeling
    phase for this but what if you added second layer of sheetrock to
    one wall?  This would take up 1/2 and make the gaps 1/4 on either
    side which would make chaulking a viable answer.  

    
    
    some 3/4" cove or other 3/4" molding would probably do a nice job
    covering the gaps...
    
    
    
    Royce.

    Add 1/2" backing board, and tile (caulking the seems).
    
    Laminate 3/4" particle board and make a U shaped backsplash.
    
    Coat molding in Marine poly and edge it.
    
    Coat 1x clear finish wood in poly and extend the backsplash with
    wood.
    
    IF you really want to caulk, put in some shims to make a smaller
    gapped surface.  You could even grout and and caulk over that.
    But this may have the least desireable effect.
    
    kevin
    

re .0:

I have a question about your question...

When you look down the crack or crevice are you looking all the way to the 
floor or just 3/4" to the base?  It makes a difference since any shallow 
fix for the first case will still look like sh*t from the front; I'd 
probably leave it.  In the second case it would probably make sense to 
acurately cut a piece of trim to fit very close sideways and hightwise, and 
paint or paper it to match.  Or raise it like a baseboard and paint or paper. 
It's kind of hard to see which would look better from here.

Craig

    
    Don't let him just caulk it!  Without seeing a picture, I'd have
    a hard time judging what would look best.  However, there is a marble
    back-splash around my vanity.  Perhaps a similar solution would
    work well for you.
    

       Does anyone have an opinion or experience with Marble vs Corian
       as a vanity top?  

       In a fit of vacation weakness and a flash of might-as-well, I
       purchased a hand thrown ceramic sink bowl to replace the sink
       of a bathroom that I only started to paint and paper.

       The vanity I will build is about 43" by 19".  The only color
       top that looks somewhat reasonable with the bowl is
       black-gray.  I am about to order a plastic material called
       "Fountainhead" (Black Matrix), by Nevamar, that looks and costs
       about the same as Corian, (ie HIGH).  But, I can probably get a
       real marble top made for the same costs.

       Anyone know this plastic, how it tolerates scratches, ease of
       machining, advantage of marble, etc.

       (PS: plumbing in a strange bowl is another story.)

    

    Sideline Diversion Alert !!!
    
    A recent (Dec 88/Jan 89 - I think) copy of Fine Homebuilding has a
    story about handmade pottery sinks and a fella who makes them so that
    they accept standard pluming fixtures such as drains and faucets. 
    

    Didn't mean to infer the plumbing was a real problem, I just had to
    make a ring to cover the lower drain hole in the standard drain 
    tailpeice, since the bowl/sink has no overflow double wall.
    
    PPS: I do have a new 45" x 19" post-formed white Formica top that is now
    surplus (not match the sink)!

    Corian is easy to repair.  It probably won't crack
    like a slab of marble.  Plus it's not nearly as porous.
    With Corian you can buff out scratches and burns.
    And you can cut it yourself.

    
    I have a real marble vanity top which I would guess is at least
    50 years old (maybe 80 or 90).  It has never cracked (of course
    I don't usually drop cement blocks on it).  It could probably use
    some polishing, but it cleans just fine.  I prefer marble to 
    Corian, the way I prefer wood siding to vinyl.  It's a personal 
    choice.
    
    -tm
    

    Marble will crack if not supported properly.  To store marble, store it
    on edge.  I have some antique furniture with marble tops and they are
    constructed so that there is a complete "subfloor" under the marble
    top.  In the case of the furniture, it is a series of 1x boards to form
    a platform to support the marble.  For a vanity, I would use a piece of
    3/4 or 5/8 marine or exterior plywood as a top and then lay the marble
    on top of that.  The plywood would support the marble and the marine or
    exterior grade would be resistant to the high moisture in a bath. 

    I personally like marble over Corain because of the richness of the
    look.  Marble can be sanded to remove small marks and can be cleaned.
    You will have to contend with it being more likely to break glass
    containers though.

We're starting to get serious about replacing our pedestal sink with a
white painted vanity.  What should we look for?  Assuming the hardware
is decent, is particle board really that much worse than plywood?  Any
problems mounting towel racks on the sides of a particle board vanity?

As regards vanity tops, any thoughts on manmade marble vs. ceramic vs.
ceramic bowl in formica?

    
    Go with real wood. Particle board may be OK in some applications, but
    for a sink, I don't think it is. Particle board when wet tends to
    disolve. I'm in the process of replacing my tenents downstairs vanity.
    I bought a unfinished vanity from Builders Square. It's made of Oak
    plywood. 
    
    Mike

    Also, mounting hardware to particle board can be a pain.  Regualr wood 
    screws tend to pull out easily.  Nut's n' bolts will work but the board 
    tends to deteriorate around the them after a while and everything
    loosens up.  Also as mentioned previously, when particle board gets
    exposed to mositure, it will bubble and deteriorate flaking away over a 
    period of time.  Even particle board with a good sealent applied will
    cause problems eventually.  
    
    SKip

    
    As long as it's properly installed, there should not be a problem
    with high-density particle board. It's only going to swell if water
    is running over or sitting on a seam or cut surface.  having said
    that, unless you wipe up after each use some water will eventually
    get where you do not want it.
    
    You can screw lightweight fixtures using particle board screws - except
    these screws often need a pilot hole and may not be appropriate for the
    screw-holes in a fixture.  It's better to insert a glued hardwood dowel
    and screw into the dowel.  A wet towel is fairly heavy so think twice
    about towel rails.
    
    I've noticed that some of these man-made plastic bowls can look pretty
    scuffed and beat-up after only a few years of use.  Whenever I've
    stayed in a hotel that has these, there's always a few cigarette burns
    around the edge.
    

    I agree with -1 about the high density particle board.  Unless you plan
    on aiming your shower head at the vanity you are going to be fine with
    the product.  
    
    As far as the marble vanity tops are concerned.  They all can be
    cleaned up with the gel coat or I use furniture polish in the spray
    can.  I also use it for the fiberglass tub.
    
    When you buy the marlbe tops you turn them upside down and see how many
    bubbles there are in them.  The more bubbles, the worse the quality. 
    If you get a cheap one you will have cracks around your drain as it
    will expand and contract easier with hot and cold water.  So, the less
    bubbles the better the quality.  It's logical, a bubble is a weakening
    of product.
    
    I've had a marlbe vanity top and a particle board vanity in my bath for
    4 years and there isn't the hint of a problem with either item.  They
    were a good investment.  Get the highest quality particle board cabinet
    you can find.   The heavier the better.
    

    I don't know about how your bathroom is set up, but our vanity is next
    to the toilet and ummm well there are splash considerations. 
    Especially if there's a male about.
    
    Skip

We've just started looking, and I was surprised to see inexpensive real
marble for less than Corian.  Am I missing something here?  I thought
Corian was invented as a less expensive alternative to marble.

   Gary

    Wouldn't it depend on the type and quality of the marble?
    
    Skip

    Maybe what you see as "real marble" is real good imitation marble.
    
    Think about it.
    
    And don't forget to look at Swanstone vanity tops, available at Spag's.
    
    Elaine

    
    You might want to drop into Scratch & Dent in Fitchburg and
    look around.  I picked up a 6' corian vanity top and an oak
    base for $300.  The base had the back cornors blown out.  But
    seeing it was going against the wall between the closet and the
    other wall...little glue and you'd never know.  The top has
    a small scratch in it.  But If I didnt tell you to look for it,
    you'd never see it.
    Sommerville wanted about $1200 for the same setup.....
    
    JD

    
    REP. -.1
     Could you post an address (for those of us that don't have the
    slightest idea of where you are talking about) and directions from
    some well known place such as Rt. 2?:>)

re .16:

>    And don't forget to look at Swanstone vanity tops, available at Spag's.

     Is that a brand name for cultured marble?

    Swanstone is a Corian alternative.  A bit more affordable.
    

    
    The address for Scratch & Dent is 28 Willow St.  The number is 342-5753.
    I'm sure they'd give directions if you called and asked.
    
    Cq

      
     Thanks for the address! 
    
       Bill 

My wife and I went shopping for vanities last week.  We're looking for white,
and most of the available ones are oak, so our selection is somewhat limited.
Spags vanities were poor quality.  We liked Somerville's Lexington vanities
($200 on sale).  Penny Pincher wanted over $350 (who's pinching whose pennies?).
We weren't impressed with either HD or BS.  Only places left (unless we decide
to hit the plumbing supply places) are HQ and Grossman's (don't laugh -- I've
still got a 20%-off certificate for my first credit card purchase).

We also looked at tops -- cultured marble and Swanstone (we're not willing to
lay out the bucks for Corian, and I don't like porcelain).  I asked our
plumber for advice, and he said that marble tends to crack around the drain.
He also ranked faucets by brand -- Grohe is #1, Delta is #2, American Std
is #3.  He said that Price Pfister is junk.

BTW, I noticed a small ad in the Sunday Globe magazine for a mail-order
faucet place.  They say their prices are 25% off list.  I don't know what
the typical mark-up is, but I'll probably check them out once we decide
on a specific model.

    
    Check out BS. They have unfinished vanities. You can just sand and
    paint it white...If that's what you want.
    
    Mike

I didn't see unfinished vanities at BS.  There weren't any in the Aisle of
the Vanities (move over, Tom Wolfe).  Are they with the other unfinished
furniture?

    
    The unfinished vanities are in the same isle as the rest of the
    vanities. The ones they have on display are the finished ones. However
    they have them unfinished....Just look up. They must have at least 5
    different styles and sizes.
    
    Mike

>Penny Pincher wanted over $350 (who's pinching whose pennies?).

You get what you pay for. Did you try the "back room?" They have a number
of mistakes, mis-orders, etc. most of which are not finished. The prices
on these pieces can be quite reasonable.

Mickey.

    After checking out Penny Pincher, Sommerville Lumber, and others we
    decided to stop in at the Kitchen and Baths place in Merrimack. We
    ended up having to get a custom made cabinet and the price was very
    competitive. Kitchen and Bath's is located at the Village Square mall.
    
    marc

    
     Also consider this, most companies that do kitchen cabinets also
    do bathroon vanities (Yorktown, Shirrock etc.) Prices will vary
    depending on type of wood, finish, and your ability to pay.:>)
    

I finally got to Builders Square and checked out the unfinished vanities.
They're mostly particle board, so I'm not interested.  I also went to Masi
and got some ideas there, but it looks like I can get better prices elsewhere.

We're leaning towards an Omega vanity from Somerville, a Swanstone top from
Spags, and a Delta faucet.  It's not top-of-the-line stuff, but we don't
have a champagne budget for this project.  Once we throw in a tri-view
medicine chest and lighting, we're probably talking about $700-$800.

I mentioned in a previous reply that my plumber said that fake marble
sinks tend to crack around the drain.  FWIW, this was in Peter Hotton's
column in today's Boston Globe:

Q. One of my fake marble sinks has crazed around the outlet.  Is there
a way to fix it?  It was installed in 1977.

A. There is no way to fix it.  Sometimes it occurs because of old age,
but more likely the drain was tightened too much on the sink.  Live with
it until you replace the sink.

    We just went through this exercise, because Somerville Lumber had a sale
    a few weeks ago on Omega vanities and Corian tops. We got an 18x24
    vanity, top, and single-lever Delta faucet for $400 + tax.
    
    The Omega vanity is a reasonable piece of cabinet work, much better
    than the junk I saw at Grossman's.
    
    With my 20/20 hindsight, here's a checklist, which may save you some
    trips to the store if haven't done this before. I went four or five
    times to my local hw store (which is only 1/2 mile away for me,
    fortunately).
    
    - Corian top is fastened to vanity with silicone caulk. Also needed for
    backpanel. You'll also need plumber's putty for the drain. Don't forget
    teflon tape and pipe-joint compound either.
    
    - Single-lever faucets have simple copper tubing coming out, not
    threaded fittings. Easiest connection is to buy adaptors, with tubing
    compression fittings one end, threaded at other end. Then buy two
    flexible supply hoses which fit the adapters and the shutoff valves. 
    In my case, the supply hoses were way too long, but I made a simple
    loop in them which didn't strain them.
    
    - Check the operation of the supply valves under the sink before buying
    supplies. One of mine was frozen, and had to be replaced.
    
    - Measure distance from wall to sink drain, and see if it differs from
    new sink. You may need a new pipe nipple from trap to wall. (Mine was
    very corroded and had to be replaced anyway). Also see if you need to
    replace trap, and take its measurements into consideration. There are
    also hack solutions (flexible drain pipes).
    
    Dan

    
    	I'm looking for a vanity for our soon to be finished upstairs bath.
    	I need a 48" wide unit.  The best I've found so far is at HQ in
    	Manchester, for around $312.
    
    	Anyone found any bargain places, or alternative sources around the
    	Manchester area?  For us, due to schedule and our location, the
    	Nashua area is less convenient than Manchester.
    
    	thanks, Glen(n)
    

    You may wish to check out Rivco in Nashua; Amherst Street right
    across from the old McDonald's (more or less), which recently
    was a Miami Subs shop.  Rivco had some very good prices on different
    types and grades of cabinets when I needed a serviceable (aka cheap)
    vanity for a church remodeling project.
    
    They delivered for free (total order was $395).

    
    	-1
    
    	Are you referring to the Bullpen or their normal 'out front'
    	sales stock.  We have, when time permitted, visited them many
    	times.  Unfortunately, we don't care for their out front stock,
    	and have yet to find anything in the bullpen.  I do agree though,
    	that the bullpen can be a goldmine.  I have gotten some great
    	deals there in the past.....
    
    	thanks, Glen(n).......
    

    Would any one happen to know if Scratch and Dent in Fitchburg is
    still open?  If so, where are they located?
    
    Thanks

	Scratch & Dent is still in Fitchburg.
	
	The location is 28 Willow St.

	Phone number:  (508)343-3202


	k

    Rather than start another note, this seems to be a reasonable place to
    ask the following:
    
    We're about to replace our old vanity & top, which are set in a
    cubbyhole (similar to the base note) that is approx 36 1/2" wide x 26"
    deep. 
    
    We've purchased an 36" wide oak vanity, and will cover the vertical gaps
    with some oak quarter-round moulding stained to match. The top is going
    to be pre-formed & laminated wood (particle-board) with a built-in 4"
    backsplash. The problem is as follows:
    
    	I was able to pick up a 4' wide section of countertop in the color
    	we like for approx $14 ($18 on sale less $4 because one corner was
    	damaged, but since I'm cutting it down to 36 1/2", it didn't matter.)
    	The problem is that while the vanity is 21" deep, the countertop is
    	25" deep. Since the cubbyhole is deep enough to contain it, I'm
    	thinking about installing the vanity 3" out from the back wall and
    	installing the countertop as is. I would support the back edge of
    	the countertop with a 2x3 installed parallel with the top of the
    	vanity. 
    
    	While this sounds feasible in theory, is it practical? Has anyone
    	out there done something similar? I there anything special I need
    	to do to secure the vanity? Any plumbing considerations? etc, etc.
    
    	An option would be to order a 22" deep section of laminated countertop,
    	with a cost of $45 and a delivery time of 2 or 3 weeks. Before I do
    	that, however, I wanted to try my idea above. Any suggestions,
   	examples, etc, would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Freddie
      

    	Is the countertop also preformed with a backsplash ? I can't think
    of anything plumbing wise that you can't get around. Looks wise might
    another matter though.
    
    	Ray
    	

    
    To me it sounds like it will work just fine. If I read .7 correctly,
    the vanity sides will be completely hidden by the sides of the
    cubbyhole, so it won't be detectable visually whether the vanity is
    mounted flush against the back wall or 3" out. The countertop
    can be trimmed on both sides if necessary because it also fits totally
    within the cubbyhole, so its edges are hidden.
    
    A wood ledge on the back wall at the level of the vanity is a good
    idea, and may be necessary. Countertops are often full thickness only
    at the very front and back, where they normally sit on the supporting
    cabinets. With the vanity pulled out 3" the countertop might not be
    properly supported, but the ledge will take care of that.
    
    Plumbing should not be a problem -- I normally have to replace a fair
    piece of the supplies and drain just to line up with the new sink.
    
    Attach the ledge to the back wall flush with the top of the vanity.
    Secure the vanity to the floor in front, and through the sides to
    studs in the side walls; do the side attachments up high, shim between
    the cubbyhole walls and the vanity walls, ans screw through the vanity
    wall and the shim into a stud. Fit the countertop and attach with
    screws at the four corners from inside the vanity. IT will outlast the
    house.
    

    re: .8
    
    Yes, the backsplash is 4" high, and is preformed and curves to the
    horizontal surface, so from above, this jury-rigging should be
    invisible. 
    
    re: .9
    
    yes, both ends are bounded by the cubbyhole, so the sides will not be
    at all visible. And the underside of the counter is flush all the way
    across. (looks like 3/4" or 1" thick partcleboard)
    
    Thanks for mentioning the plumbing, as this is becoming my other concern. 
    I hate to admit it, but I was so focused on the structural issue that
    I overlooked the plumbing issues. I just realized that:
    
    	A) I don't recall if the vanity is open in the back or whether it has a 
    	panel (it's a kit awaiting assembly, and I don't recall what the 
    	display model showed). 
   	B) I don't yet know the distance needed between the wall and the
    	sink fittings. 
    
    Of course, Murphy's law dictates that the supply lines will connect to the 
    sink at the exact location of the  rear crossmember of the cabinet frame. 
    I haven't measured this out yet, but will do so tonight. This seems to
    be the only other showstopper I can think of.
    
    And another question. What's the best way to cut the countertop? Do I
    cut from the underside or from the top? Circular saw or hand saw?
    Should I use a regular blade or a plywood blade? 
    
    any other tips are, as always, appreciated.
    
    Freddie

	Assuming your sink & faucet would fit on a shallower
countertop (the type the shallower vanity is designed for...)
you can always just mount the sink towards the front of the
countertop, leaving the extra space behind the faucet.  This would
avoid having faucet plumbing going down through the back of the
vanity.  

	For cutting - the sink hole is best cut with a jigsaw.
If you do this from the top, where you can see your template lines,
you'll get a ragged edge upward from the sawcut, possibly cracking
the formica.  You may also have trouble getting to part of the cut
near the backsplash, as the saw body might hit the backsplash.  If
you cut from the bottom, you get cleaner cuts, but you can't see 
your lines as well...I usually go from the top, but use a special
sawblade with the teeth cutting on the down stroke, not the usual
up.
	For the side cuts, you get the same problem.  It's not a flat
section, with the backsplash, so it's tough to do with a circular saw.
Best bet is to turn it over, cut with a circular saw (giving you a clean
cut on the top surface) and finish up the backsplash section that the
saw didn't reach through with a handsaw.

    To help reduce chipping of the Formica you can lay masking tape down
    where the saw kerf will break through on the finished side. I'd use a 
    plywood blade, thin kerf and lots of teeth And like -.1 said cut from
    the backside and use a straight edge clamped down good as a guide for
    the saw. 

    You could just remove the backsplash  with the circular saw while you 
    add it. You'll need to build up the back to the same thickness as the 
    front, which is usually 1-1/2", the sides could use the same treatment. 
    Just screw on some 3/4" strips,it doesn't need to look good, its 
    purely structural. Custom fitting to unsquare framing is done with a belt 
    sander, go slow and check the fit often. This will reduce the plumbing 
    modification greatly. A little silicon sealant and some 1/4 round trim
    around the edges and your finished.  

    well i looked in the plumbing notes and also under 'sink' and 'drain'
    but my question was not addressed in those notes...hence the start of
    a new note that someone might actually see and answer....hopefully...
    ..on to the question.... my husband took out an old bathroom sink
    and put in a new one. he had to move the new sink about two inches to
    the left so that the bathroom door could open all the way (whoever put
    in the sink we're replacing was a bozo as they put the sink and vanity
    in resulting in the door not being able to open all the way... geez..
    .... .the new sink is now about two inches to the left of the big drain 
    pipe that extends out of the wall...my husband managed to fashion a 
    connection from the new sink to the drain pipe, out of bendable pvc pipe 
    and the drain is connected and works....but the sink is v-e-r-y slow to 
    drain....too slow to live with...has anyone encountered this problem 
    before..?..what did we do wrong?..and can we fix it or is it time to call 
    in a plumber...........thanks for any tips you might offer......./karen

    dear whoever...thanks for putting my note discussing sink drain
    problems into the 7 year old bathroom vanities note..i'm sure i'll have
    my problem solved in no time......while you're moving stuff...there are
    50 notes discussing windows that could be consolidated....but beware
    the 1 window note that has about 800 replies...most of which cover a
    wide variety of problems relating to ants...i'm sure you'll want to put
    that under furniture refinishing or something equally akin....

>    my problem solved in no time......while you're moving stuff...there are
>    50 notes discussing windows that could be consolidated....but beware
>    the 1 window note that has about 800 replies...most of which cover a
>    wide variety of problems relating to ants...i'm sure you'll want to put
>    that under furniture refinishing or something equally akin....

Seems your noting abilities are a close parallel to your plumbing abilities.

Your question, BTW, is about as vague as if you asked how to get a stain 
out of your sister's, mother-in-law's "thing".

did the sink drain better than before your husband worked on it?  Is the 
problem his doing or the previous handyman's problem?

If it never worked, the problem's deeper than where you're looking.  If it 
worked fine before, your hubby screwed something up.

FWIW, you have a bathroom vanity drain problem. Your note is in the 
bathroom vanity topic.  If it'd been left where it was you'd get responses 
all right.  most of them would be pointers to related notes and nobody'd 
give you an answer to your question.   which they probably still won't be 
able to do because the question's got no hard, technical data to help 
anyone out.

    convenient how the title just changed to include the word 'sink' isn't
    it?.....I think my question was clear frankly, but if you can't help me
    out well then thanks for putting in all that effort anyway...as for 
    something about a 'stain' and a mother in law 'thingy' ...i'm absolutely 
    sure you have me confused with someone else..but i'm sure that happens
    to you all the time.....the only other time i've written asking for help 
    was regarding a concrete pool problem..which i'm sure even you couldn't 
    confuse the two disparate subjects .............have a nice day....../k

well, lets put it another way.


If your topic had enough information to prompt a sensible answer from one 
of the many DIY and/or part time contractors in this conference, the place 
where that note was placed would have absolutely NOTHING to do with the 
level of responses.

The mere fact that a number of other LONG notes have a significant amount 
of activity attests to the fact that the majority of the readership:

	1	uses NEXT UNSEEN to view topics

	2	answers the questions that can be answered.

	...and it appears yours can't be.

FWIW, where would you expect to find a bathroom sink, anyways?  Most folks 
would associate it with a vanity.

Of course, if yours was a long-standing problem, the note might have been 
moved to the sewer or septic system note but it didn't appear to be a sewer 
drain problem.  from the tone of the note, it appears your hubby screwed up 
but we can't tell you that w/o actually seeing the job.

We still don't know whether the problem occurred before or after he touched 
it but it appears it was afterwards.

Perhaps he should take it apart and see if he left something in the pipe?

>    my problem solved in no time......while you're moving stuff...there are
>    50 notes discussing windows that could be consolidated....but beware
>    the 1 window note that has about 800 replies...



ummmm..... they were moved a week or so ago.  that's why there are x00 
replies

    Well, re .73, it may be that he kinked the flex pvc tubing. There are
    flexible tail pieces for offset drains in SINKS that can be bought from
    hardware stores.

    
    If by "flex pvc tubing" you mean the "accordian-type pipe"... they
    just inherently slow water flow down. Anything beyond a slight bend in
    that stuff can have a major affect on the speed of the drain.
    
    In my opinion, "accordian pipe" is a good temporary solution to buy
    time until you can fix it correctly with rigid pipe.
    
                                                                - Mac

    And I'll bet that they provide the perfect breeding ground for
    future drain clogs. All those accordian folds will collect hair,
    grease, toothpaste, etc and clog faster and be harder to clean.

    Go to hardware store and get a real PVC trap, fittings, and some
    pipe and do the job right. 

    Charly

    re:73
    
    	I read about the vanity getting offset, but I'm still not sure why
    he didn't use a standard solid J pipe connection to reconnect it. If I 
    remember correctly, each end of the J pipe coming from the sink has a 
    fitting which allows the pipe to be offset. The radius of the bend in the 
    J pipe is more than 2", so it should be able to accomadate a 2" move to
    one side or the other and still be used.
    
    	The pipe that connects from the J pipe connected to the sink to the 
    wall drain pipe can also be moved (in/out) to make up any minor difference 
    on that end. I'm assuming that the sink drained OK before the introduction 
    of the PVC flex pipe. If that's the case, the previous noters hit the nail
    on the head.
    
    	Ray

    ..yes, the sink worked fine before we put in the new sink...i would
    have said so had it not worked...it must be the flex pipe...thanks for
    the responses...and i'll ignore the pompous remarks.../k

>    the responses...and i'll ignore the pompous remarks.../k

    Irregardless... The point being made is that a question in thes
    proper location, even if it is an "old" note will still be seen by
    those who read this conference and answered. Plus, your question
    and answer is now here for a future reader who may have the same
    problem. The benefit though is that the question doesn't have to
    be ask, and answered again!

    I think that some of the perception problems here stem from a news
    group mentality where the notes and replies tend to roll over
    after a period of time. Plus a lack of understand and/or trust of
    the next unseen key.

    Charly

    i assume your use of the word 'irregardless' is meant to be humorous as
    that double negative is only acceptable when the intent is clearly 
    humorous...so, that being the case, i accept your humor at this whole
    note situation...i've obviously stumbled onto a couple of carefully 
    held 'principles of noting' that have tripped the switched for a couple 
    of you....sorry to have tread ever so lightly in such a closed area.
    i'm not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you boys..i'm also not
    going to take your little chastisements without debate...there are
    several reasons why i thought i was doing the right thing, but i just
    don't have the time to bother discussing it.. re: my question on drains..
    ..i did the research..read all the notes on plumbing, sinks, drains etc...
    to no avail....so i created a new note..horror of horros....and it
    was banished in seconds to a note about bathroom vanities...and if you 
    read the note before someone transformed the title into bathroom SINKS and
    vanities...it was mostly about where to find vanities..not the problems of
    the drains attached to the sinks attached to the vanities....with that
    said, i'll depart offering my thanks again to those who offered their help
    without feeling the need to make me wrong in order to make themselves 
    right in the process...tx again.../k
    
                      
    

What has me puzzled is the fact that the door opens into the sink rather 
than away from it like most bathrooms I've been in.

    
    	I finally took the plunge and went out and bought a vanity
    w/sink top.  I was surprised to find what I've been looking for,
    for over a year, at the Scratch n Dent in Fitchburg.  I bought a
    corner vanity, I believe its 25" from the back to the corner. I
    purchased the vanity and sink for $199.  The vanity looks like
    oak, but I'm sure its not real oak.  Did I pay too much?
    Also, how hard is it going to be to install where the previous
    vanity was?   Thanks  Sue Fleck

    	I bought a used 48" vanity with top, sink, and Moen single handle
    faucet for $40 in excellent condition. The doors, drawers, and face were 
    solid oak. It came from a house where it was just too big for the bathroom.
    
    	Someone had a used one for $55 or best offer in the Classified_ads
    notefile (36" I think) just last week. I've seen/heard of them in yard
    sales and flea markets for as low as $10, but again, these aren't new.
    
    	New, these things can vary in price dramatically. Used, they only
    go for a fraction of the cost when new, but then you have to wait for a
    deal.
    
    	Ray
    	

    
    RE:  -< and has anyone seen a vanity WITHOUT a sink? >
    
    
    	Yeah, my daughter has one in her room. You really need to relax a
    	little.
    
    
    	

    
    	Hi, my bathroom sink (porcelain) has a hairline crack in it.  Is
    there any way of fixing this?  Sanding?  Special paint? 
    
    Luis