Conference 7.286::home_work

    We have one of the units that fits onto the side of the
    house - and it works really well.  The hardest part is
    putting it up the first time - you have to square the 3
    sides against the house, and put some brackets on the
    house and the floor of your deck/porch to hold it in place.
    You then have to put the awning hanger on the house once
    the sides are up.  Then, you just assemble the roof tubes,
    and install the awning.  We chose to take ours down completely
    every winter because of the wind and ice we tend to get.
    The only thing that stays up is the awning hanger on the house,
    and it's very inconspicuous.  When you go to put the screen
    house back up in the spring, you just line up the 3 walls and
    brackets up to the holes you made the last time, slap the
    roof tubes together, and put the awning on.
    
    If you have a deck, I'd advise you to get some screening and put
    it underneath the deck where the screen house will be - this
    keeps out those "sneaky" bugs who come up from underneath!
    
    All in all, my experience is good - ours is up for its 3rd year
    right now, and the only thing that's starting to get a bit
    tired is the roof awning (a lot of wind whiping in our yard).
    I figure next year I'll order a replacement awning for about
    $70 - not a bad maintenance cost considering the cost of a whole
    new one.
    
    Let me know if you have any other questions.
    
    andy
    

I wondering if anybody has any comments or ideas.  I have a 12X16 deck 
that I built about 2 years ago and I decided to screen it in this year.
I notice that at Sears they sell screen in porches that are meant to sit
on the deck and an awning that attaches to the house to provide shade.

They look well made.  I didn't have a chance to find out the price, but
they come in various widths and lengths.  

Does anybody know anything about these, difficulty of installation,
reliability, different stores that I should look at?

I did a dir/title="deck",and "porches" with no luck.


Thanks for the help.


Dave

    see note 1158
    
    andy
    

    Thanks.
    
    Dave
    

I have a problem with my screen door.  It's a Sears aluminum Crossbuck Door.
The problem I have is lately, the metal in the crossbuck piece of the door is
coming out of the hinge side of the door, making the door in essence wider than
the frame, so it won't shut properly.  I can temporarily fix it, by guiding the
metal back into the hinge side, on both the outside and house-side of the door.
 But a day or so goes by, and it happens again.  How do I fix this? Should I
put sheet metal screws in from the hinge side, to pull the metal into the hinge
piece?  It doesn't open up enough to see inside, and I'd rather not tear it
apart to find out... 

-garth

    That seems like a reasonable approach.  You might also consider
    pop rivets or sheet metal screws perpendicular to the door to just
    hold the crossbuck in place after you've pushed it in by hand if
    there's anything to grab on to.
    
    -joet

	We are planning on building a screened porch.  Our current plans are
that it would be 14 X 21 and the roof would match the 12 pitch of our cape.
We're also planning on putting a deck off of one end. We've asked a former
neighbor (who is an architect) to draw up the plans for us and we've also asked
him to give us a quote on building it (his brother has a construction company).
We are limited in our financial resources and are trying to figure out the
most inexpensive way to get it done. As a result we asked our neighbor to give
us two quotes, one that includes building a deck base for the whole thing and
one quote which assumes we've either built the deck ourselves our put in a slab
or whatever and he is just putting up the support posts, the roof, the
screens, etc.

	The basic plan looks like this:



        |--8'---|---------21'--------|

 -      +-------+--------------------+            -
 |      |       |                    |            |
 |      |       |    Screened in     |            |
 |      |   D   |      Porch         |           14'
 |      |       |                    |            |
 |      |   E   |                    |            |
24'     |	|                    |            |
 |  -   |   C   +------+-------------+---------+  -
 |  |   |              |                       |
 |  |   |   K          |     Current Home      |
 | 10'  |              |                       | 
 |  |   |              |                       |
 -  -   +--------------+                       |
                       |                       |
  

	I was wondering if you folks could give me any idea as to the
ballpark cost of materials for a pressure treated deck the size of DECK and
the screened in porch. This would help me get an idea of how much I might
save if I did the labor myself.    

	Secondly, my brother-in-law is just starint out in the concrete
forms business and offered to pour a foundation for the screened-in porch
section for the cost of the concrete (ie no labor) for the practise. We
could pour just footings or a full basement. If we did that, I would assume
that we wouldn't have to use pressure treated wood in the screened in porch
and we could save on cost there (although the concrete would probably cost
as least as much). Anyone have ad idea of how much concrete would be
required for the 21 X 14 screened in porch section?

	Basically, we're trying to figure out how to build the screened in
porch on a limited budget, figure out what tradeoffs could be made and how much
those tradeoffs would cost.

	Once again, any information would be appreciated as we are "babes in
the woods" when it comes to knowing how much this sort of thing will cost.

Thanks,
Paul

    I would think the cheapest way to go would be to build the entire
    structure as a deck and screen in the area you have marked as a
    screened in porch.
    It all depends on what you're going to use that "porch" for. If
    it's just summer entertaining, no need for a full concrete floor.
    If you plan on using this for year-round use, you're talking a
    full-blown addition. Big bucks.
    As far as PT lumber estimates, can't give you an accurate estimate.
    You left out one demension. I can tell you that I'm building 2 decks
    totalling 380 sq feet which came to about $1200.
    John
    

Very rough estimates (since, as already indicated, the distance the porch
projects to the left of the house in the diagram is not specified, are about
$5-600 for the frame (assuming 2x10 joists (at $.90/ft), 16"OC, plus a few
support beams and some 4x4 posts, but not including digging holes or pouring 
footings), and about another $500 for decking, assuming 1x4 decking at about 
$.30 a foot. 

Also, as already mentioned, forget about a poured foundation if this is really 
going to be just a porch.  Way too expensive, even with free labor.  Just dig 
some hole for footings, line them with sonotubes, and set 4x4PT posts on them.
No excavation, no forms, MUCH less hassle.  One thing though, whether you do 
the deck yourself or have someone do it, put screening over the joists before 
the decking under where the screened porch will be.  Mosquitos love to climb 
up through the cracks in the decking.

Also, to further counterract rotting of the deck area, there are a few things 
you can do.  Some are common practice, some aren't.  The thing you are trying 
to avoid is a place where water can sit between two pieces of wood.  
Unfortunately, the entire deck is composed of pieces of wood stuck together, 
but you can eliminate some of the worst spots.  For example, it's now common 
practice to lay a strip of tarpaper down on the joists before putting the 
decking on, and you can even buy the tarpaper in 2" wide strips.  Even better, 
though much messier, is to lay a bead of roofing cement on top of the joists 
and bed the decking in it.  Then no water gets in there.  Another place where 
rot usually starts is where two pieces are butted together on top of a joist.
One way to eliminate this, although it is seldom done, is to space the joists 
very closely (2x6's 8"OC instead of 2x10's 16"OC), and butt the two decking 
pieces over the gap between joists, instead of on them, leaving a gap in 
between.  Like this:


	Standard way					No-rot way

| |		| |		| |	       | |    | |    | |    | |    | |
-----------------,-----------------	   ---------------,,------------------
		 |					  ||
		 |					  ||
-----------------'-----------------	   ---------------'`------------------
| |		| |		| |	       | |    | |    | |    | |    | |

When I build a deck on our house, I plan to use this method, because I don't 
like the idea of having pressure-treated wood in contact areas, and I'm going 
to use fir decking.  The fir decking is rot-resistant, but not so much as PT,
and so I'm going to do everything possible to make it last.

Paul

    
	Here are the missing dimensions.


        |--8'---|---------21'--------|

                |--7'--|

 -      +-------+--------------------+            -
 |      |       |                    |            |
 |      |       |    Screened in     |            |
 |      |   D   |      Porch         |           14'
 |      |       |                    |            |
 |      |   E   |                    |            |
24'     |	|                    |            |
 |  -   |   C   +------+-------------+---------+  -
 |  |   |              |                       |
 |  |   |   K          |     Current Home      |
 | 10'  |              |                       | 
 |  |   |              |                       |
 -  -   +--------------+                       |
                       |                       |
  

        |------15'-----|


I'm realizing now that concrete (even with free labor) is going to be
quite a bit more expensive than sonotubes and PT. Does anyone have any
idea how much more expensive?

One reason for even considering the concrete is that if we had a full
basement under the porch and eventually cut a door through from the
rest of the basement, it would provide a really nice place for a workshop
where I could shut the door and keep my sawdust to myself. If I had
free labor, and the difference between tubes/PT and basement/plywood
was on the order of three or four hundred dollars then it might be worth
it.  Does anyone have an idea of hour many yards of concrete it would
take to build a 'basement' for the 14' X 21' section?

Thanks for the comments so far as they have been helpful.

Paul

    It's simple to estimate the concrete needed, just use some math! Add up
    the linear feet of wall, multiply that times the height of the wall in
    feet times the thickness in inches and divide that by 324. That gives
    you the number of cubic yards of cement that you'll need. Multiply that
    times $50 or so and you've got your cost. 

    For example:
    40ft wall X 7.5ft high X 10 inches thick = 3000 / 324 = 9.25 yards

    9.25 yards X $50 = $462.50

    Other formulas work also, anyway that easy for you to calculate the
    cubic area of the wall. Don't forget the footings too. Footings are
    usually a foot deep and twice the thickness of the wall.
    
    Charly 

RE:< Note 1255.4 by USMRM2::CBUSKY >
                                 -< Use math >-

	So, from your reply I'm assuming that for a 'standard' foundation
one usually has walls 10" thick and walls 7.5' high, footings 1' high
and 20" wide. If I assume that the floor is 5" thick (is that reasonable?),
then I have the following formula for handy-dandy yardage:

[(Wall-length * wall-thickness) * (wall-height + 2)] /324 = wall yardage
(floor-width * floor-length * 5")/324 = floor yardage

So, for the porch, assuming walls of 21', 14', 14', and 8' I'd need
16.7 yards and for the floor I'd need 4.5 yards. At 50$/yard  that'd
be $1060 + miscellaneous hardware (ties?) etc. 

Are the assumptions of 5" thick floor, 10" thick walls and the footing
assumptions valid for a 'standard' basement?

Paul

                                         
    In regards to the deck:
    As far as saving money AND doing the job correctly, one way is to
    use 2x6 decking on top of 2x8 floor joists (24" O/C). As you are
    only carrying 8' this would work out nicely. For the longer dimension,
    which is 15', you would need 2x8x16's sitting on a beam out from the 
    house 8' and another at the end.  Assuming you go with this method,
    your total materials bill including; lumber (except railings, because
    of the many different styles), decking, posts, beams, joists, headers,
    sonar tubes, cement, brackets, bolts, nails etc... would run around
    $690-725 including taxes depending where you buy your lumber.
                          
    a quick diagram of the beam (which will carry the weight of all
    the joists)and joist work follows:  Note: not to scale, nor are
    the correct number of joist depicted. 
    
                       
                     joist (typ)
                       /
            =============|-----------------------
            |  ||        |                      |
            =============|                      |
            |  ||        |                      |
     header =============|                      |
          \ |  || beam   |         porch        |
            =============|                      |
            |  ||        |                      |
            =============|  header              |
            |  ||        | /                    |
            =============|                      |
            |  ||        |                      | 
            ====================|----------------------------         
            |  ||      ||       |                           |
            ====================|                           |
            |  ||      ||       |                           |
            ====================|                           |
            |  ||      ||       |        house              |
            ====================|                           |
            |  ||      ||       |                           |
            ====================|                           |
                      /         |                           |
               2nd beam         |                           |
    
                           
    this is the simplest and most cost effective method.
    
    

re:.6

I think you missed the point a bit.  The deck is supposed to go under the porch 
also.

Also, in estimating, it makes a big difference which way the roof slopes.  If 
it's a shed away from the house it's less, since the end of the deck is a 
bearing surface anyway.  If it's a two pitch roof, side to side, it'll be more 
because the deck under where the two sides land has to be strengthened to 
support the extra weight.

Bottom line seems to be: you ought to be able to build the whole deck, 
including railings and footings, for $1500 or less.

Paul

    your all pretty close with the yardages but a cubic yard is really
    not a cubic yard so to speak, its close but not exactly the same.
    anyways, yes, your looking at close to 16 yards of cement at approx.
    $55 a yard, plus labor to float the floor, and excavate the hole.
    Also you would go a full 8' with the walls. Another thing to think 
    about is weathertightness, until you eventually close the porch in 
    totally.  
    
    So for an excavator your talking $500+, float the floor another
    $200-300, cement about $880.  total:$1500-1600
    
    versus
    
    4-12"x8' sonar tubes $50, 4-98lb portland $20, + approx $150 over
    the cost of regular wood for pressure treated.  total:$250+-
    
    I'd say go the cheaper method, much easier, less labor intensive
    and you can always close it in later.
    
    Fra
    
     
    

    If you decide to go with a full basement under the "porch/deck"
    area then you would need more than a porch/deck on top. Do you follow
    me? 
    
    In other words, if you want a new full basement for a work shop
    or whatever, then you wouldn't want to put a porch on top that was
    open to the elements. It would have to be built more like an addition,
    i.e. real floor, wall, windows and roof. This cost a lot more than
    a deck with a screened in area on part of it.
    
    Charly

    re:.7
    let me let you in on something, you can't build one massive deck
    and put walls and a roof over a portion of it.  It just dosn't work
    that way. first off you build the frame for the porch and attach
    the deck to the side of the porch and the house.  And I realize 
    you'll have to beef up the sides of the structure where your walls 
    will be supporting the roof.
    
    You build and frame for the porch, then attach the deck...
    
    Fra

    re:.9
    you hit it on the head, You have to treat this project in steps.
    build your addition (enclosed porch), then add on a deck (exterior
    living space) to the finished addition.
    
    If you want a basement, you would have to actually use plywood floors,
    and make the thing weathertight, not only by using screens but with
    windows for foul weather. otherwise your asking for trouble. 
    
    Notice also that the work deck can be used to mean 2 different things.
    
    1. a deck added to a house for exterior living space (usually pressure
    treated)
    
    2. when building houses, a deck is refered to as the plywood nailed
    to the floor joists to form the 1st, 2nd or 3rd floors (i.e. 1st 
    floor deck built, studding/walls added on top of this, then second 
    floor joists then the second floor deck) 
    
    Fra

    I think if we had a dollar figure (his budget) to work with, a
    solution would be alot easier. Ie $2000 means a deck with a
    Sears screen house attached, $20,000 means an addition with a
    full basement and a deck off that.
    John

    Let's not come down too hard on the orginal noter. He's only going
    through a phase of home work project planning that I'm sure we all have
    (I know I HAVE!) and it's only natural. 

    FYI, I'm in the middle of a "simple" family room and two car garage
    addition. It's now a familyroom with cathedral ceilings, skylights,
    frontporch, bay window, full basement below with steel "I" beam.
    Attached two car garage with steel "I" beam also (no poles to hit car
    doors on), gambrel roof on garage with full room above, access from
    garage to new basement under family room, access from new basement into
    old basement thru $450 hole in the wall. And, let's re-landscape the
    yard while we're at it, after it all torn up now any ways. 

    It starts with, "Hey honey, let's put a deck on the house". Then,
    "Yeah, that not a bad idea, how about screening in part of it"?. "Hmmm,
    we could use some more room in the basement, maybe we could put a full
    cellar under part of it" and on and on and on! 
    
    After you blow the project out of proportion, then you get to sit back
    and reconsider what it is you want to do and how much will it cost. Our
    originally noter here is doing that now, with our help (I hope). 

    Charly

    Re: .2
    
    	Another place you want to eliminate water from getting in is
    between the house and the support joist for the deck (sleeper joist?).
    This isn't as important where a roof will cover it but where the
    joist will be exposed to the elements it may rot out - especially
    if you don't have gutters.  I speak from experience since I just
    had to replace one.  When I rebuilt it I put spacer blocks between
    the joist and the house and nailed through those.
    
    George      

>    let me let you in on something, you can't build one massive deck
>    and put walls and a roof over a portion of it.  It just dosn't work
>    that way. 

Maybe YOU can't do it that way, but many other people can and have.  I've done 
it myself, and it's simplicity itself.  Just make sure that the deck is fully 
supported by joists (and carrying beams and posts) in the areas that the wall 
is going to go.  You can then just build the deck, and then start building up 
from there.

Paul

I've gotta go along with paul (.-1).  I know lots of people who want to get into
DYI and are a bit taken aback at trying to do a screened in porch for this first
project.  SO, they build a big deck.  After a year or so, all you need to do is
enclose part of it.  The key, as Paul said, is making sure that the part the
porch will go is strong enough for when the time comes.

As for real ballpark numbers, I built a post & beam screened in porch around
16X20 (talk about HUGE) for a little over 1.5K.  I went to the local saw mill
for my timbers and roofing.  I did the flooring out of standard materials
(I chose a pattern a friend of mine has, alternative 2X4's and 2X6's, for the
floor).  To avoid the bugs getting through I butted them close together since
the won't be getting massive quantities of water on them, but the buggers STILL
got in.

The one thing you MUST be sure to do is leave spaces between the flooring.  I'd
go for at least 1/4" if not 3/8".  You've just gotta leave somewhere for the
water to go.

-mark

    re:.15
    Maybe I was a little quick on the trigger in my other reply...
    Yes, you can build a rather large deck, with the correct support
    structure to carry the weight bearing walls, a screened area
    can be added on at any time after/during the building process.  
    but I have spoken with the original noter and was told that he 
    would eventually like to close it in. Now If this was the case, 
    how would your method of just building your walls on top of original 
    decking work compared to something that is a little more weathertight. 
    Another thing paul plans on doing is to make a storage area on the 
    second floor of the new addition which can be reached from the second 
    floor of his cape.
    
    Now, if i wanted to build a 16x16 deck and screen in only, say half
    of it, i would do it your way and just frame on top of the existing
    deck (providing it is supported correctly) and build up from there.
    I think you'll agree this is the easiest/best way providing you
    dont plan on making this screened in area weathertight in the future.
    
    When I said it isn't done this way, this is what i meant, I know
    people do and I have myself, but only because it was built for the
    sole purpose of being a screened in area, no more no less. So if
    I sounded a little harsh, I apologize.
    
    I think you have to treat this particular project like an addition
    with a seperate deck for each structure.
    
    A friend has just had a (16x16) 3 season porch added to his house,
    the builder used sonar tubes/4x4 posts which not only supported
    the weight of the deck but also the weight of the roof, they were
    placed every 4' around the perimeter. he used 5/4" decking and built
    a sill plate around the edge and placed 4x4 posts/studs every 4'
    a top sill and then rafters (2' o/c).  Onto this porch the builder
    then attached a 10x12 deck.  He is eventually going to insulate
    the lower half of the walls and put in some kind of windows around
    the upper half, But for now it is a screend in porch.
    
    Fra

    As for spacing the planks on your deck -- I use 16d nails as spacers.
    Yes, this is less than 1/4 inch (about 1/6 inch, actually), but
    it is surely enough to let water through.  Remember that your planks
    are unlikely to be straight -- you will have to straighten them
    as you nail them down.  In practice the space between planks will
    vary somewhat, just be sure to keep some reasonable minimum space.
    In my case the spacer nails (removed after the plank is nailed down)
    provide a minimum spacing of 1/6 inch.
    
    A slight slope to your deck is also a good idea (AWAY FROM THE HOUSE!),
    and also good for a screened in porch (rain WILL get in). You don't
    want water puddling (even small puddles) next to your sills.
    
    
    				George

    RE:< Note 1255.13 by USMRM2::CBUSKY >
                   -< Anybody want to rent some barn space? >-

    >Let's not come down too hard on the orginal noter. He's only going
    >through a phase of home work project planning that I'm sure we all have
    >(I know I HAVE!) and it's only natural. 


    >    After you blow the project out of proportion, then you get to sit back
    >and reconsider what it is you want to do and how much will it cost. Our
    >originally noter here is doing that now, with our help (I hope). 
     
    Yup, you hit it on the head. We're trying to set the outer bounds
    of reality on one end and the putting a screen on a cardboard box
    on the other. The feedback that I'm getting in response to this
    note helps us to start getting a rough idea as to which of the "minor
    enhancements" are likely to require 60 year mortgages and which
    we can hope to enjoy in our lifetimes.
    
    Paul
    

>    As for spacing the planks on your deck -- I use 16d nails as spacers.

I use the same approach, and it works very well.  In addition, remember to 
start thinking about making sure the decking is parallel to the end of the deck 
when you are a bare minimum of 4 ft away, 6 ft is better.  No matter how square 
the deck is, if you just keep putting down decking till you get out to the end,
you're likely to find that there's 1/4" more space left at one end than the
other, and be left with either a tapered last piece, or an uneven gap.  And 
even if it comes out square, you might find that the last piece is only 1/2" 
wide.  If you start 6 ft away, you can make sure you come out evenly and 
square.  Use different size nails to vary the spacing.  If you need to square 
it up, use 20d nails at one end and 16d at the other every course, it adds 
about 1/32" per course.  Vice versa with 12d or even 8d nails if you need to 
tuck it in a little.

Paul

    I used the 16d spacing method on the first deck i built, and will
    never use them again, since the first one, I have built in excess
    of 20 or so others, some larger/some smaller most in the 12x16 range.
    
    The first deck I built, which was 3 years ago, has spacing now in
    excess of 1/4"-3/8". Every other deck I built I have spaced the
    decking snug to each other, and during the "dry out" they have spaced
    themselves quite nicely.
    
    At first I thought that the lumber was really wet, but it seems
    that it is all the same.  PT lumber seems to be worse in the shrinkage
    department than regular kiln dried.  So my recomendation is that
    no matter how dry you think the PT is, I would still snug it up.
    Ask the ladies how much of a pain it is to have heels replaced....
    
    Fra

re:21 and spacing.

Good point, I haven't ever built a deck with PT decking.  I've use 1x4 vertical 
grain KD fir, which doesn't shrink noticeably.

Paul

    A very close friend has been building his house now since sept 86,
    he's actually sub contracting all the work , and doing alot of the
    odds and end stuff himself (drainage, backfill, insulation, finishwork,
    tile, some rough framing from the plumber/heating guys frame
    distruction etc... anyways, when he was quoted the price to fram
    the house they gave him a price with the decks attached... when
    he asked the price difference without them they said it was $1000
    (his deck is 40x8 in back, 20x8 along one side, and a balcony 10x6)
    And there was only a $1000 difference.... so he figured for the
    aggravation, hell let them build them.  I told him to make sure
    they didn't space the decking because of shrinkage, They used 5/4x6
    bullnose PT for decking, they spaced them and he now has 3/4" spacing
    between all the planks!!!!!!!  Now if he happens to have a cocktail
    party and the women just happen to stroll out to the deck.... look
    out!
    
    He's contemplating tearing up the decking and putting it in correctly.
    
    So, you can do what you like but from experience with this PT lumber,
    i'd say no spacing whatsoever.
    
    Fra
    

    Hi.
    
    I have a screen/storm door question.  I inherited junky storm doors
    (the white aluminum crossbuck kind).  They don't keep the bugs out
    because the bottoms are all bashed in.  I have been offered a very
    sturdy and very heavy wooden screen door with copper screen.  It
    was built for a house and never used.
    
    I'm new at this homeowner bit.  Would it be better to take this
    offer, or buy a new aluminum storm/screen combination?  I know I
    can't put glass on this in the winter.
    
    Elaine

    re:.24
    Paul, I know you were, I just wanted to tell the story to really
    make it hit home with some people.  Like I said, I was really surprised
    myself with the amount of shrinkage in this guys deck.
    
    When I said "you can do what you like" I meant everyone in general.
    me.... no spaces
    
    when I was younger, and was learning to frame and build, my grandfather
    always said 1/4" space, always!!!  now with this new PT lumber,
    I think we have to change our thinking a little...    Fra
    

    well, I found what was wrong with my door.  Seems there are some
    screws in it that are near the butt end of the door and the crossbuck
    area.  I Found these to be only slightly loose, and tightened them,
    Since I did this, I haven't had any more problems!
    
    
    Thanks for the info tho!
    
    -garth
    

    Well after some serious soul searching and checkbook checking we've
    decided to scale down our plans considerably and I'm planning on
    tackling the job myself with the assistance of my two and a half
    year old son (whether I want the help or not 8-)  ).
    
    I've seen two different ways of building decks in various books
    and from talking to various folks. The first way, involves putting
    in sono-tubes and then building up from there, ie put posts on top
    of the concrete, set up ledger, joists, and header all resting on the
    posts.  The second way involves setting up the ledger, joists, and
    header with the support being provided by temporary supports. Once
    everything is level, you drop posts into the sono-tubes and fill
    with concrete, knocking off the temporary supports once the concrete
    has set.
    
    What are the advantages and disadvantages of the two methods?  Our
    scaled down plans call for a deck 14 X 14 built out of 2 X 10s with
    five 4 X 4 supports on or in sono-tubes.
    
    ---------------------------
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    o | | | | | | | | | | | | o
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
    o------------o------------o
    

    Thanks,
    Paul
    

    	The advantage of pouring the cement after is you don't have
    to figure out where they footings go, you just drop a plumb line
    and dig. But DO NOT set the post in the cement. If the footing settle
    or shift it takes a lot of work to fix. If you anchor them to the
    top all you have to do is jack up the deck and shim under the settled
    post.
    	As far as deck construction goes, every one has there own
    preference as to type of construction.
    	I prefer Post and Beam construction, because it provides support
    under all the joists rather than relying on toenail/joist hangers
    to support the outside edge of the deck. The only disadvantage with
    this method I've found is that do to the varying width of construction
    grade lumber you sometimes have to shim or trim some of the joists
    to maintain a even height. The other advantage to useing this method
    is it allows you to cantilever out past your posts.
    
    	Last year I built (or should I say Started) a 16 by 32 foot
    deck accross the back of my house. I wanted as much open area under
    the deck (as it's 8-10 feet above ground) so I used 2x10 construction
    with a 6x10 beam supported on 5 4x6 post at the 14 foot point. The
    deck, now complete, is as solid as a rock. Even with just temporay
    support posts last winter, it was able to support the weight of
    27 inches of wet snow over 4 inches of ice. I think I'd find it
    hard to find that many friends and neighbors to fit on the deck
    at once.    
    
    				Good luck
    
    					...Dave

    Ditto on NOT embedding posts in concrete.  I think I've finally 
    replaced all the posts around my house (porch, and in the cellar) 
    where that was done, with rot as a result.

    I believe in the post and beam method myself, and have not found
    a sturdier way to  build a deck... only difference being that it
    will also support walls and a roof. In this case I wouldn't cantilever
    the deck but would add an additional beam about halfway out under
    the middle of the joists for added support.  stay away from cementing
    the post directly into the sonar tube... as someone already said.
    
    fra

 Does Anyone know where to get those small aluminum freestanding screen houses
 that look like little gazebo's?

 We're looking for a small one that can fit a picnic table or a few pieces
  of patio furniture.


 We are looking for dealers in the vicinity of Nashua, NH or Chelmsford/Acton
  Mass.

  Thanks,

   Joe M.

    I saw them recently at Spags in the back building (schoolhouse??).
    They sold at least two if not three different sizes.  They were
    all under $400.
    
    In prior years I  have also seen them in the L.L. Bean catalog.
    
    Carol

    
    	I'm looking for screen doors that are "all screen", but what
    I'm seeing in the stores have the bottom third being metal and only
    the top 2/3rds being screen.  I don't have any splashing problem
    (well, on two of the three doors...) and my indoor-only cat would
    certainly appreciate the view.  Anyone know where I can get full-screen
    screen doors?  Thanks!
    
    							-craig

    
    They are called full-vue (probably a trade mark) doors.  We had
    them installed on all of the condo's in our (former) complex and
    will soon be putting them on our house.
         
    They come with full screens and full glass, top to bottom.
    
    We got them from Mass Hardware in Waltham.
    
    Karen

    
    	Thanks, Karen.  If I may ask, how much did they cost?
    
    							-c
    

I bought a couple of screen doors on sale at the local lumber yard for around
$25 apiece.  They weren't all that great (you get what you pay for), but I
reinforces the corners with angle brackets and that helped a lot.

If I had to do it again, I'd spring for more solidly build units with optional
glass (as in .-2).  I would imagine you'd have to spend at least $100-$150 to
get something decent.

-mark

    
    try sears... we had exactly that type of door on our first
    house, and will be getting one this spring for our new
    house...
    

I bought some Sears "good quality"  full view storm/screen doors,
and I wish that I had gotten self storing doors instead -- or
maybe the problem is that I didn't get the "best quality".  Getting
that glass panel in and out is a real bearcat -- the door is
warped and I have to bend the glass panel to get it in.  Unlike
the wall framing described in another note, it's not practical 
to use a sledgehammer to get it in.

	Larry

    Try:
    
    	HIGRADE Shade and Screen (or Scrren and Shade or whatever) in
    	Lynn.  They have a good selection.
    
    Stan

    Sears carries them. I was looking at one the other day for $389.
    I haven't seen them in the catalog (only the tent type in there)
    but they are in the Nashua store.
    
    MP

    Moore's in Littleton has full-vue screen/storm doors.  We got ours
    there about 6 months ago.  I think it cost about $110.  We're happy
    with it.
    
    Marc

    I expect any good lumberyard can get what you want.  (By "good
    lumberyard" I mean something OTHER than Grossman's, Plywood
    Ranch, etc.  "Home centers" are ***NOT*** the same thing as
    a good lumberyard!!! (End of tirade.))  Anyway, a good lumberyard 
    can (and gladly will) order an amazing variety of items for you; 
    just tell them what you want, and they'll probably have a catalog 
    from one of their suppliers that has it.
    
    I'm not sure where you are, but in the Maynard area I'd think
    of places like Concord Lumber and  Wilson Lumber in Concord, 
    Lamson Lumber and Larkin Lumber in Hudson, and Coldwell's in 
    Berlin.  Those kinds of places.

    
    Re: .8
    
    	I work in Boxboro and live in Nashua, so just about anything
    from Marlboro to Merrimack is within range!
    
    
    	Channel in Nashua has them on sale this week for $95 -- I'm
    going to stop by and then put a reply in here about my findings.
    
    						-c

    A GENERAL QUESTION !!
    
    I'M GOING TO BE RESCREENING MY BACK PORCH. IS IT VERY BENEFICIAL
    TO HAVE "REMOVEABLE SCREENS"? SO AS TO STORE THEM IN THE WINTER.
    OR DOES IT MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE  "FIXED OR REMOVEABLE"
    
    ANY EXPERIENCES ??
    
    THANX 
    
             LEE !

    I think it makes a difference.
    
    We had two "courses" of wrap around screening when we bought the house.
    A top course and a bottom course, each about 28' x 4'
    After a while it had to be redone as a result of the inevitable
    holes. I made 14 individual screens.
    Advantages 
    
    1) much easier to repair an individual screen than to replace a
    single course of screening that covers half the porch perimeter
    2) much cheaper too
    3) was able to then make frames with wrap around 6 mil polyethylene(sp)
    to be used in the winter "as poor man's storms" 
    4) again, it is easier and cheaper to rewrap 1 frame with 6 mil
    poly than to try to wrap half the perimeter 
    5) better lookin too

ditto - screens wrapped with plastic make excellent storms
(of course, when you get rich and famous, you will also be a position 
to replace the screens with <real> storms)

    Does anyone know of a reasonably priced place in Southern N.H. to
    have screens replaced?  We have about a half dozen standard window
    size and 3 "slider" sizes that need repair.  Any help will be
    appreciated.  Thank you.
    

Are you looking for somewhere you can buy screens, or are you looking for 
someone to fix your existing screens?  If the latter, a reply to note 2027
(misc contractors) would probably be the place for this.  

Paul

    RE .0
    
    Send me mail with details of exactly what you need.
    Dan

    What we need is to have the screens fixed on the "slider door" sized
    screens.  The bottoms of them have been torn some at the corner
    and some in the middle from squirrels trying to get into the room
    to steal bird seed.

    
    As this seems to be the right place for this question, here goes:
    
    Has anybody built their own screens and have a preferred method?
    What about the joints? Mitre or through tenon? Methods for stretching
    the screening to get a tight look?
    
    Thanks,
    Charlie

I don't know what I'd use for joints, but I've seen a very easy method of 
stretching the screens.  Take two completed frames, butt them against each 
other, and raise the ends by putting a 2x4 on edge under each end, making the 
two frames into a shallow V.  Roll the screening out over the two of them, and
attach the screen to the two raised ends, pulling it as tight as you can.  Then
remove the 2x4s, letting the screens fall flat - the flattening out will pull 
the screening tightly over the frames.  Then attach the screen to the rest of 
the frames, and finally make a razor cut separating the two.

Paul

    When I did my twelve 4X4 porch screens I did as Paul suggests.  It makes
    for a nice tight screen.  For the frame I mitered the corners and
    held them together with those ridged connectors that you drive into
    the wood (anyone know what they're called?).  As you drive them
    in the ridges pull the two halves of the frame together.  Also in
    the corners I used the same connectors for an angled piece to resist
    twisting.  Kind of like this:
    
    |   	|
    |		|
    |		|\	
    |		| \
    |		|  \
    |		|   \
    |		|    \
    |		|\    \
    |		| \    \
    |		|  \	\
    |		 --------------------
    |		
    |
    |
    |______________________________________

    To attach the screen I stapled it down and then covered the edges
    with a strip of wood.  I was going to staple the screen into a dadoed
    channel and then cover it with a strip but this would have made
    a place for water to collect and eventually rot the wood.  By stapling
    the screen to the surface any water that gets between the frame
    and the covering strip can just run out the other side.
    
    George

    re.5
    >>the wood (anyone know what they're called?).
    Corrugated fasteners or those funny looking things they use to make
    picture frames 8^) 
    
    -j
    

    RE: .4 and .6
    
    Wow! Thanks Paul and George [John and Ringo, where are your replies?]
    
    I was going to go for lapped joints, but mitred with corregated
    fasteners sounds easier. And that stretching method is sheer
    genius. Thanks.
    
    Charlie

    Just make sure you don't raise the frames too high when you put
    the screen on.   If you do, when you take out the wedges (2X4's
    are just about right) you will rip the screen off the staples.
    
    George

    
    Hmmm.
    
    [Dumb question follows:]
    
    Doesn't this just stretch it in one direction though?
    Don't you need to also stretch the screen in the other
    direction as well?
    
    Your point about the screen elevation prior to stapling
    is well taken. Thanks.
    
    Charlie

< Note 2235.7 by SEINE::CE_JOHNSON "Stand fast in liberty." >
>>    Wow! Thanks Paul and George [John and Ringo, where are your replies?]
    
	If you hear from John, would you jot down his nodename for me?

					Thanks....8^)		--Mike

    RE: .10
    
    Hi Mike,
    
    Yes, John did send personal mail. He said he can be reached 
    at IMAGINE::LENNON.  ;)
    
    Charlie

    re .9
    
    Yes, it's only in one direction.  You can't get 4 way stretch.
    You have to stretch the other dirction by hand.
    
    I've used this technique several times and it works very well.
    
    It's not difficult to stretch by hand in one direction.  It is
    difficult to stretch in two.  Therefore the 'V' strctching in 
    one while you tighten in the other direction is fairly easy and
    winds up with a decent screen.

    One of the items on my winter list of projects is to make screens for
    my parents porch.  My question is what wood is recommended for making
    screens?

    Kevin

Depends on if you're going to paint them, and how long they are expected
to last.

I simply used pine, but if I had it to do over, I would have chosen a 
hardwood.  Mine were painted to match the trim on the house, so rot was
not a factor.

If they are to be left natural, without any protection, then I would say
cedar or redwood are reasonable choices, (Unless you can afford teak!) 8^)
The wood needs to have natural oils in it to resist rot, but I'm assuming you
would be painting (staining) them.

Bob

    I selected some good pressure treated lumber and ripped screen stock
    from it.  If you have a good saw, this is a very economical way
    to go.  And you don't have to paint or stain them right away.
    
    Bob

    Sorry for the lack of detail.  Yes these screens will be painted to
    match the house trim.  The house previously had screens but the
    remodelers trashed them so I have to start from scratch.  I figured pine
    would be the probable choice but I wasn't sure about warping and
    splitting.  Do you see this as a problem with screens made from pine
    stock?  What about fir?  As far as the good saw goes I have a feeling
    that Santa is bringing me a nice Delta table saw.

    Thanks,
    Kevin

    re: .15
    Be *very* careful of sawdust from pressure treated lumber. If I
    have my facts straight it is toxic.
    
    	Mark
    

    I made my screens out of 3/4" pine. Am very happy with the result. 
    I agree with the caution about P.T. lumber. It is absolutely
    unnecessary for this application and POSSIBLY very dangerou
    
    
    
    			herb

    Re: .16
    
    Make sure you paint all sides or the paint shrinkage on just one side
    will cause a warp. Don't take the shortcut and just paint what shows.

re: .19  I think its the uneven moisture transfer from the unpainted side
         that causes the wood to warp.

in either case, painting all exposed wood is a must.  Also, the more time you 
put into doing the paint right the first time, the longer it will be until you
have to do it again.

I made my storm windows out of 1x3 pine.  Their brand new, so I can't give any
details about longevity.  I would, however, suggest you avoid trying to resaw
your own 1x stock from something larger, unless you have the equipment to
surface the new stock.  (i.e. jointer, and planer), and even that will be
impossible if the lumber turns out to be case hardened.  You will also
have to wait a week or more for the lumber to stabilize again after resawing,
because of the internal stresses that have been released, and the uneven
moisture from the inside vs the outside.

Its better to buy the right dimension, that to try and create it yourself.

Also, FWIW, pine will be a lot less likely to crack or split than hardwood.

Good luck!

Bob

I've been planning on having the deck on the back of my house replaced with a
screened porch.  It's starting to fall off the house (never was secured right
in the first place!) so it needs to be replaced from scratch.  I've had a
couple of carpenters over to give me an estimate and both have suggested
enclosing the porch with storm windows instead of screening.  They say that
"most people who have screen porches built end up replacing the screens with
windows anyway" and that the cost would be about the same either way (due to
the cost of making screens, possible need for pressure-treated wood for the
flooring in a screened porch, etc.).

I've got a couple more carpenters coming over this week (thanks to the
references in this conference) and I'll be interested to see if they say the
same thing.  I'd also like to hear from people in this conference.  I wouldn't
believe the first guy when he told me that using screen would cost the same as
windows, but when I heard it a second time I thought there may be something to
it.

I'd also like to know if those people who have screened porches are satisfied
with them.  I don't really need an extra room in the house, just a place for 
my family to cool of in the hot weather without being eaten by the mosquitoes. 
But I suppose that if the cost is about the same, I might as well get a porch 
I can use in the cooler months too.

Remember that most storm windows only open half way (they usually have 2 glass
and 1 screen section) whereas a screen porch would be full height screen. Could
make a big difference in airflow/coolness.

    
    re:  storm windows vs. screens
    
    We added an enclosed porch onto our first house and decided to use
    storm windows rather than just screens.  It worked out very well
    in that we didn't have to worry about water when it rained, or having
    to replace the screens with plastic, etc. in the winter.  We had
    the rough openings sized for standard windows, so that if we ever
    wanted to replace the storms with regular windows, there wouldn't
    be any work to do, framing-wise.
    
    Our current house also has an enclosed porch using storm windows.
    I think this concept works just fine, as in the early spring/late
    fall you can use the porch, just keeping the windows closed.  If
    you get an unusually hot day, just open 'em up!
    
    
    -Mark
    

    re .21:

    When I first read your note, I thought you were talking about wooden
    storm windows, but other replies have assumed aluminum combinations.
    Clearly, those contractors must have been talking about the latter.

    My parents' porch has an arrangement of wooden storms and wooden
    screens, storm-screen-storm, with another storm that slides over
    the screen in the winter, and over a storm in the summer.

    In any case, you won't have a four-season porch in New England, but
    the storms will give you a three-season porch, as well as a wind-break
    in the winter.

My house used to have a porch with windows.  The previous owners took down
the windows and replaced them with floor-to-ceiling screens.

In last summer's boiling heat, it was quite pleasant... except for the
wasps that kept getting in through holes in all that screen.

However, every time it rained, a lot of the porch (and the things that
we store out there) got soaked.  It wasn't fun running out in the
night and trying to hang plastic -- useless, too, since our rains
are usually accompanied by lots of wind, which seems to blow in
opposite sides of the porch alternately.

This spring or summer, I am going to rip out the screens and put up
storm windows.  It may not be quite so cool in the summer, but we
won't have rusty tools or mildew under the carpet.  Also, it should
make it a pleasant place to be during the spring and fall.  For the
winter, it will be awfully nice to have an airlock around our
kitchen door.  I may also use it as a place to store garbage --
I hate having to dress for an arctic expedition just to take a
sack of garbage outside during the winter.

My advice is to consider which way the rain hits your house and
how many seasons you want to use your porch.  I vote 3 seasons and
a dry porch, and I'll take my chances with it getting too hot in
the summer.  I can always put up shades, or remove storm window
sections on the really hot days.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- I used to live in California, and never heard of a "rain date"
until I got to New England.  The prudent thing to do here is to assume
that the weather will be bad most of the time, and be happy when it isn't.

    CONSIDER USING SLIDING GLASS DOORS, THEY SELL REAL CHEAP USED AND
    ARE VERY EASY TO INSTALL, I PICKED UP 2 8'X 6'8" FOR ONE HUNDRED
    EACH, THERMAL GLASS AND SCREENS INCLUDED.
    

I almost suggested that the question about screens vs. storm windows be started
in a new note, and was starting to regret not having done so.  Then I looked
back at the base note and discovered that this was not a digression, but was
the subject of the original note, which was just titled poorly.  I fixed the
title so now it all hangs together. 

But converting an old porch to screened and retaining the old look could use a 
note of its own.  Could you start one?

Thanks

Paul

    This was my mother's dream: to have a screen porch.  It's on her
    southwest side, in New England.  When it was screened, it had to
    be plasticed in every winter, and it got wet when it rained in the
    summer.
    
    Last summer she had the screens taken out and Florida windows
    installed.  They are best described as large jalousie windows, about
    1 x 3 each pane, that go from floor to ceiling.  They crank in and
    out, and have built in screens.  Now with the glass closed it is
    a three season porch.  She claims she uses less fuel with the large
    insulated room (almost like a brady room, except with a roof).
    
    These windows are prettier than storms, and allow a lot more air
    flow.  It's worth a check.
    
    Elaine
    

We have screen doors going out to our patio which we will not be able
    to use unless we replace the screen and the frame in which the
    screen slides in.  It has been chipped and the bugs would get
    in.  I'd like to get this taken care of before the warm weather
    gets here, but being a new at this and overwhelmed with everything
    else that needs to get done, I don't know where to start.
    
    It is not a standard size window.  It is huge.  Does anyone have
    any suggestions?
    

Hi,

  I know that some aluminum window/door dealers will make special order
storm windows and doors.  Perhaps such dealers sometimes also make 
screen doors.  

If you look in the yellow pages (try "Storm windows and doors"), you'll find
aluminium dealers, some of whom might provide the service you need.   Even if
none of the listed ones can do your job, they may be able help you find
someone who can. 

Good luck,

Margaret

    Does anyone know where I can get rolls of screen for my outdoor
    patio enclosure?  When I bought the house a year ago, the screen
    was torn.  I have looked but seem only to be able to find the standard
    size of screen for repairing windows.  This would require a wider
    width than is normal.  Are there screen supply stores which I could
    contact?  I think I am looking at widths of about 3 feet or more.
    
    Ed..
    

I was looking for a heavy duty zipper once, and found a supplier for what I
wanted in the Yellow Pages.  (Not a commercial.)

    
    I'm not sure if this is the appropriate note, but it seemed related...
    
    What I'm hoping to find is a _wood_ storm/screen combination door,
    with as much of a view as possible.  When we built our log home
    (back when I lived at home with Mom & Dad), we installed storms
    that were wood, with removable inserts for the screen/glass.
    
    Well, it's spring, and additions are on my mind (or at least
    remodeling).  My brother-in-law had an addition done last year which
    used aluminum storm doors as the wall panels (a 3-season porch/patio);
    I'd like to use the wood to fit the decor of my house better.
    
    Is it possible to get these sorts of doors any more, possibly with
    thermopane inserts?  Where, and how much can I expect to spend on
    these beauties??
    
     -- John

    re: .10
    
    Yes, you can still get wooden screen/storm doors...I picked up 
    two last fall at Malden Door and Window.  I would think any place
    that sells quality doors (Morgan, etc) would have them...or could
    order them for you.  I paid about $150 each for standard 2.5'x6.6'
    
    deb
    

    I've seen 3' wide rolls in several Lumber yards in Nashua and
    understand it also comes in 4' rolls.

	 I bought 48" wide black aluminum and fiberglass screening at
	 Benson's True Value Hardware store on D.W. Highway in Merrimack
	 about 2 years ago. I believe that 48" is a standard width and
	 should be a stock item. A worst a one or two day wait at the
	 store.

	 Chris

	Sounds like you need to find this screening in the southern NH area. 
	For readers around worcester county; SPAGS has screening in all widths 
	and types. They have aluminum - black and silver and nylon screening.

	Roger

    
    Somerville Lumber will definately have what you are looking for.
    I needed some screening to cover a four foot door that I made and
    I found the screening material there.
    
    john

I've seen the wide screen in Builders Square in Nashua.  They have several
types and widths.  

						.dave.

101a west.

    re .11
    
    Thanks, Deb..
    
    I assume the $150 per is for a pre-hung door?  Anybody know if it's
    possible to get the door itself, no jamb?  My bro-in-law used the doors
    as panels in the porch/patio, with only one hung in a jamb.
    
     -- J

    Thanks.  I will check it out.  I guess I just wasn't looking in
    the right places.
    
    Ed..
    

    
               
                    Most good hardware stores carry the screening
             your looking for.  Make a few calls, you should be able
             to locate a source close to home.
    
    
          Mike

I paid around $150 (maybe a little more) and that's WITHOUT a jam or doornob. 
You don't have prehung screen doors since they mount on the same jam as your
main door.  I got mine at littleton lumber.  The door came with a removeable
screen and replacement glass unit (actually it may bve plexiglass).

-mark

    
    
    Thanks, Mark...
    
    I guess I was thinking of the hinges, etc., when I was referring to the
    jamb -- when I installed the storm door on the front of my house, I
    remember some hardware being there.  Whatever -- now I have a starting
    point to use for planning.
    
     -- J

    I have replaced my sliding screen door a couple of times .
    
    I was always fortunate to be able to find the size needed at Grossman's
    building supply.  The replacement doors do come in different sizes or
    you can order the size that will fit your needs. They are also reasonably
    easy to install. The instructions included with the door are very easy
    to follow.
    

I'm planning on building a screen door for a garage.  Right now I'm thinking
about 3-4' sections joined with hinges for easy removal and storage.  One
section will have a regular size screen door built in. This would fit into the
garage door opening and the garage door would still be able to go up and down
behind it. My father spends most of his waking hours in the garage tinkering
with something or other and this would make a nice fathers day present. 

Any advice from anyone who's ever done this or seen this?  Are these sold 
commercially anywhere?

John...

    The April 89 issue of Family Handyman has an article and plans on
    how to build one. Check your local library, maybe.

    This may point in the right direction. Whilst driving through Rochester
    New York we (wife and I) noticed almost everyother house w/ a garage
    had the garage door up , and a large screen wall/door in its place. 
    Apparently "up there " they are quite common. Any "upper state NY "
    noters out there have an address/supplier ? 

    re .-2
    
    Isn't that interesting. Our next door neighbor has the only screen in
    garage I have ever seen. (he is from up-state New York)

    
    In Upstate NY it's not advisable to use a heated garage, because
    of all the salt they use to melt all the snow they get. So they
    put them to good use, usually as a family room.
    
    Mike_from_Syracuse

    
    You drive the car on heavily salted roads, it builds up on the
    underside of the car and freezes. You put the car in your heated garage
    and it melts, and that salty water creeps into all the inner areas of
    the body. Rust and corrosion follows.
    
    If you keep the car outside the stuff stays frozen.
    
    CdH
    

re: .7

Ok... I follow you now.   

Of course, anyone who owns a car in Upstate NY that expects to keep it
reasonably rust free either gets it undercoated or puts it up for the 
winter.   Also, the tedious labor involved in scrapping ice and snow
off your car after a snowfall makes it kind of silly to have a garage 
and not use it, with or without heat.  8^)

Not to get ON the topic here, but...    8-)

I haven't seen any unique source for garage screens up here.  Your friendly
neighborhood Grossouts or equiv. should carry them, or they can easily be
done as a DIY project in a day.

Bob

    The heat from a garage will accelerate the reaction between the
    salt and the car's metal - increasing even further the corrosion
    taking place.
    
    	Courtesy of Click and Clack, the Tappet brothers.
    
    George

      In addition, wouldn't the salt have an effect on the garage floor???
    

    I've accidentally poked a hole in my full length screen door.
    
    Is there a way to patch the torn area without replacing the entire
    screen?
    
    - gene

>< Note 2266.4 by STEREO::HO >
>    Is there a way to patch the torn area without replacing the entire
>    screen?

Yes, you can even buy small pieces of screen with long "edges" that
will fit around a hole.  Just bend the edges back out and you're done.
Or, you can cut a small piece of screening out of a sheet and stitch
it into place over the hole.

      Another  idea,  which  may or may not be easier and may or may not
      look as good, is to cut a slightly oversize patch and glue  it  in
      place.

    Re: < Note 2266.4 by STEREO::HO >
    
    Gene,

    > Is there a way to patch the torn area without replacing the entire
    > screen?

    How handy are you with needle and thread? My wife does WONDERS with 
    #60 Black thread!

    Brian

    Has anyone bought storm doors from Nashoba Valley Aluminum in
    Littleton?  They sell storm doors from Coastal Doors in Haverhill
    for $190 installed.
    
    Andy.

    I bought a Coastal storm door a couple years ago, and I would not
    recommend them at all.  The door that I bought was the type that's
    similar to a storm window- there was a window that slid up revealing
    a screen and down to close it tight.  First, they used plexiglass
    instead of glass so that the up and down action of the window scratched
    it all up.  Then, the worst part was the hinge running fron top
    to bottom was not nearly as sturdy as it first appeared.  In other
    words, one good gust of wind catching the door when opened weakened
    the hinged which in a short time, and more wind, became useless
    (separated).  I live in Haverhill where Coastal is and they didreplace
    the hinge for a fee, but a little wind later, it was useless again.
    Now, unless your door won't be subjected to any crosswinds upon
    opening, well, go for it!
    
    My 2 cents on storm doors:  For the money (~$250), Sears `Best'
    is a damn good door, and it's not that hard to install yourself.
    Mine has already been subjected to all the tortures that rendered
    my Coastal door useless, and it still works as good as new.....
    
    John

    Dear Mr. Moderator, I have searched this note for any reference
    to the following problem.  If I am in error, my apologies in advance.
    
    
    I need help/recommendations on DIY, or having someone build screens
    for me.
    
    These are not any normal type of screen, but are meant for the 16'
    gazebo I just finished.  Each section is about 9' high, and about
    6' wide, and the screens need to be in keeping with the rest of
    the job.  The screen will have to be very specialized in order to
    fit around mouldings, etc.
    

I know there was a conversation in here somewhere about making large screens, 
but I can't find it either.

Oh well

Paul

    The largest standard width readily available that I have seen is 
    48"; you may want to consider using two 48" widths on top of each
    other with an interface board between the two sections on the inside of
    the gazebo and decorative woodwork over the seam on the outside of the 
    gazebo. This will allow you to do easy replacement with standard
    material, remember somebody will put something through it causing the
    occasional replacement. Special purchases of perhaps a 6' width could
    be very expensive if you could find it.
    
    The 1' shortfall you would have by using two 48" pieces on the 9' dim-
    ension could be taken care of with a bottom kickboard plus decorative 
    wood at the top of the 9' foot dimension. I would suggest you avoid the  
    one-piece 6' x 9' approach; this would leave a very large section that 
    would ultimately bulge and sag from snowload plus people rubbing against 
    it. The decorative cross-piece of wood, where the two screen pieces
    meet, would prevent some of the people rubbing.
    
    Hope this helps.

    Try Sears catalog.
    
    About a million years ago, (hmm must be middle 60's) my Dad built a
    screened in porch on the back of our house. It used screen, made of some
    fabric rather than metal, and the panels are about 6' tall x 14' long
    in some cases.
    
    Not sure if it is still available...

    Re 3. If it is non-metal, be prepared for significant sagging of the
    material. Fiberglas sounds nice but it does sag within a few years.

    Nope, no sagging in however many years it has been! 
    
    BLD
    

    You might check some of the do-it-yourself tapes.  Grossman and
    some book stores sell this kind of tape, if you have a TV tape
    recorder.  Public television (Chanels 2, 44, and 11) have recently
    (this past month) shown a do-it-yourself show illustrating how to
    build and screen in a large porch.  This was not the "This Old House"
    show, which should really be titled "This Rich House", but was some
    other show.
    
    /Dick

    
    
    RE.6
    
    	The program your referring to is Hometime. They have tapes
    	available at many stores or you can send for them for $9.99
    	the adress is given at the end ofthe show. I believe Spags has 
    	them at the School House for $7.99
    

    Or, ignoring the issue of prices, try going to Moore's - they have
    the custom screen material, and will spend time (and some scrap
    material) showing you how to make the screens.  At least, the Moore's
    in north Leominster did.
    
    Dwight

    A place called Modern Manufacturing makes custom screens.  Apparently
    they are reasonably priced and very good quality.  My fiance', who is 
    an engineer by day and a carpenter in the slow seasons, recommends them
    for his clients building screen porches.  They have all been very
    pleased.
    
    It is located at College Square in Worcester: (508) 791-7151.  In the
    Worcester Yellow Pages under Screens-Door and Window.
    
    Elaine

    I would like to have a 16x16 screen porch built behind my 2-car garage.
    The porch roof would be perpendicular to the garage roof and the two
    would have to be joined.  The land is flat.
    
    Does anyone have a guess at how much this might cost to have built?
    
    Has anyone tackled this kind of project themselves?  What was the cost
    of the materials?  How long did it take?
    
    Carol

    I've built a screened in porch on an existing deck on my previous house
    (1983) using a prefab unit. The room was 12 x 14 and ran me (if memory
    serves correctly) around $2800 for the four walls (inc screens) and
    roof. I recently did a sunroom (9 x 12) on a deck, with an extruded
    aluminum frame and  double plexiglass panels (Vegetable Factory is
    the manufacturer) and the building itself (walls and roof) ran about
    $5K with options.
    
    Depending on the style of your house, some of the prefab kits look
    quite nice. The one I described for my previous house only needed its
    gutter cleaned occasionally and the panels washed once a year (baked
    finish). In the 5 years I was there, it took ZERO maintenance other
    than that.
    
    Your costs for the base would vary depending on what you built it on.
    If the back of the garage is fairly close to grade, you could pour a
    slab (i.e. patio) and build on that, using the patio for the floor.
    If the garage rear wall is higher, then it could be built on a deck.
    Again, the costs would vary, but not teribly expensive if you do the
    work yourself.
    
    Eric

    Does anyone know anything about "Forever" storm doors by a company
    called EMCO?  My wife and I have been looking for doors for 2 or 3
    weeks now and have been to several different places.  Sears "best"
    doors seemed to be the ones that we liked the most until we saw the
    Forever doors at Grossman's in Gardner.  They're made out of
    polyprophelene (hard plastic) and *seem* to be very durable and well
    made.  They're about 1 1/2 inches thick and the window and screen can
    slide down into the door panel when desired.  We'd actually like to know
    if anyone has this type of door or knows someone that does?  My main
    concern is whether they warp or not.  It seems that if they were to
    have any problem it might be warpage.  Also, will they custom make this
    door to fit a non-standard opening?  Our front door measures 82"X 34". 
    We're going to be buying 3 doors and I'd hate to spend big $$$'s only to
    find out that a year down the road they have all warped.  Is there
    anything else we should be concerned about regarding this type of door?  
    Thanks for any info!  
    
    
    Ken
    

    We have a Forever door and love it. It is very convenient because you
    can use the screen on a whim if the weather permits. The door is quite
    heavy, and does require the spring closures at top and bottom. It is
    very attractive and was ( I think) worth the $$$. 
    
    Lynn
    

    We had two on our front and rear doors of our house. I removed the
    back one when I put on our addition, and don't intend to replace
    it. They are real nice and upkeep is null, but during the winter
    it shrinks....almost 3/8". I had to add shims to the latch to keep
    it closed. During the warmer weather I had to remove them...it got
    to be a pain. 
    
    Jim

    re .18
    
    Lynn,  Do you have the same problem as Jim in .19?  This could
           definately be a problem.
    
    re .19 
    
    Jim,  Did you still have the one on the front door?  Are you still
          shimming it in the cold weather?  Do you know if aluminum is
          any better as far as shrinkage goes?
    
    
    Thanks, Ken                              

    I agree with 18, and to some extent 19. I have a Forever door on the
    front of my house and are quite satisfied. They will shrink in winter,
    but its caused me no problems other than some of the felt seal being
    more visible than summer. I installed the door in the summer, so
    perhaps that's why it isn't a problem for me. The instructions give
    clearance instructions, which should be followed. And when installing,
    the door is HEAVY so an assistant will make the job easier.
    
    Eric

    re. 21
    
    Eric,
         You said that the door does shrink in the winter.  Your latch
    still catches even when it shrinks?... just barely catches or catches
    with room to spare?  Is there a certain way to install it that you can
    take into consideration the shrinkage?  Is it spelled out in the
    instructions?  As you can probably tell, I'm new to storm door
    installation! :-).  So you don't think that I'd have a problem like in
    .19?
    
    Thanks, Ken

    I don't think ours has shrunk much, if any at all. I would emphasise
    that they are heavy--if you install one, make sure you put on both top
    and bottom springs. My sister-in-law didnot and they have problems with
    theirs not hanging right. 
    
    Lynn
    

    Ken,
    I still have the front door, and it still shrinks during the cold,
    but not to the point that I have to shim it to keep it closed.
    On the back door I don't use the Forever door. The rear door was
    the one that shrunk the most. I do remember something about shrinkage
    in the instructions, I must have gotten the front door alittle better
    adjusted than the back one. Besides, it hinges that wrong way for use
    on the new addition.
    
    Jim
    
    btw...what do they cost now? I think I paid around $175 about 8-9
    years ago.
    

    Oh, one other thing. They form such a tight seal between the two
    doors (regular door and the Forever door) that I broke three handles
    opening the door. You have to pull easy...a quick jerk will result
    with part of the handle disconnected from the door. They did send
    me new handles free of charge. The front door handle is a knob,
    but the rear was a hook type and it broke easily.

                                                                  
    
    Jim

    We just got ours last summer .....Maybe they are making them better
    now??
    
    

    I think it was $239 for the half view and $269 for the full view.  The
    full view door is made of aluminum and the half view is the
    polypropylene.
    
    Ken 

    Has anyone ordered a custom made "forever" door?  Our front door has an
    opening of 34"X 82".  We've been trying to get a hold of Emco with no
    luck yet.  No one answers the phone on the customer service line.
    
    Thanks, Ken

Somerville Lumber also carries this brand.

I had a Sears "full view" screen/storm door installed a couple of years ago.
It does expand and contract a bit with temperature, but has not given me
any problems.  The screen and storm panels are held in by a rubber spline.

				Steve

  Personally, I probably would've been satisfied with Sears best for a
  lot less money, but my wife refuses to buy anything from Sears except
  screwdrivers. We got them on sale at Somerville Lumber last Fall, and
  have had no problems with them changing dimensions, so they may have
  improved the design. They certainly are the Rolls Royce of storm
  doors, but a Chevy will get you to work, too.

    I'd just like to thank everyone for their inputs on "forever" doors.  I
    would love to have puchased them for all of the 3 doors but we
    called the company and they don't do any custom doors at all.  As I
    said earlier, our front door is 82" X 34" and they won't cusomize one
    for us.  The woman said that it's probably because they make enough
    money just making the standard sizes.  
    
    re -.1  I'd have to agree that they are the Rolls Royce of storm doors.
    I guess we'll go with the Sears "best" instead.  They said that they
    will customize for us.  I guess after looking at about 6 or 7 different 
    places, I would rate them second only to the "forever" - IMO.
    
    Thanks again! ...Ken                                                   
          

    For what it's worth - I had three Hess Armaclad doors installed about 7
    years ago.  These are aluminum doors with a solid core. The doors are
    heavy and durable - I've had no problems with them and they are in
    about the same condition as the day they were installed.  To give some
    idea of the usage, one of the doors is the "normal" doorway into the
    house and is used many times daily.
    
    My memory is that they cost about $250 each installed and were custom
    installed to fit the door opening.  If I were to install new
    storm/screen doors again, I'd give the Hess doors strong consideration.

re: "Hess Armaclad"

Are these full-view?  How wide is the bottom panel?  And the big one: where
does one see/order 'em?

Pete

    The ones I have are full-view.  I believe that they had multiple types. 
    I got them from a local company who installed them as well.  The 3
    doors were 30", 32" and 36" wide by 78" high.
    
    The address of the manufacturer (at the time I bought the doors) was Hess
    Manufacturing Co.,  Box #127, Qunicy, PA 17247.  Perhaps you could call
    them and find a local rep, or send me mail and I can supply more
    details.
    

i have a slider screen door problem - the screen door won't slide (roll?).

the door seemed to be rubbing on the wood doorsill.  so i pulled the little 
wheels out and sprung the spings a little with the idea of lifting the door 
a little higher off the sill.  well now it's really fubar'd.  the door just
tilts when i try to slide it either way, of course binding.  is there a 
trick to this that i'm missing?

craig

    There is usually a small piece that goes on the bottom
    that is a guide of sorts to keep the door straight.
    
    Looks like a U joint with plastic on the ends.
    
    Lloyd

On the sliding screens for my Atrium doors, there are adjustment screws on the
top and bottom of each edge that control the tension of the little wheels. 
Maybe they're on your screen, too.  The adjustments they allow eliminate
problems like you seem to be having.

re. -2:  there are no other pieces except a little cast aluminum ramp type 
that is up inside.  above the wheels when the door is right side up.  but i 
don't see their purpose if the wheels are down and holding the door up.

re. -1:  no adjusting screws either.  i know the kind you mean but there is 
only a locating pin there, no adjustment.

this is a high quality "atrium" door that cannot be that old.

craig

    Is there any discussion in this file on converting a deck to a
    screened-in porch?  My first questions deal with estimating 
    weight per unit area and possible upgrade of the supporting
    beams and posts.
    
    Thanks
    Erik

    I was over at a friends house and noticed that he had a pseudo portable
    screen house made for a deck.  He got it from Sears for about $400 and
    change.
    
    The basic idea was a metal channel was attached to the house, about a
    foot or so above your slider or door to the deck.  There was also a
    track that gets attached to the surface of the deck.  Then there is
    an accordian like screen unit which unfolds to form 3 walls (the 4th
    wall is your house).  The bottom of the screen unit fits into the
    tracks attached to the surface of the deck.  There is a door in one
    of the screen sections.
    
    Long skinny metal strips are then attached from the channel on the
    house to the screen wall furthest from the house.  These strips will
    support a canvas roof and are spaced about a foot apart.  The floor
    comes rolled up and is some sort of outdoor carpeting so that the bugs
    don't come up thru the planks of the deck.
    
    The unit must be taken down in the winter so I didn't get to see it
    in place but it looks like its dimensions are something like 9 x 12.
    
    The people who had this were pretty pleased with it.
    
    -al

    re: screen house for deck
    
    We have a screen house as Al has described in the previous reply
    on our deck, and have had it for about 7 years now.  It works fairly
    well during the late spring/summer/early fall for shade and for
    keeping out the bugs (mosquitoes stay out, but wasps tend to wander
    in from time to time).  It is fairly light-weight, so it needs to come
    down in the winter.  we're on our second roof, as the first one lasted
    about 5 years.  We don't have a floor on ours - rather, we screened the
    bottom of the deck to keep the bugs out.  We tried I/O carpeting one
    year and rotted some floor boards out.
    
    Good points -
    	- Cheap
    	- Does the job
    	- easy to get parts for
    
    Bad points -
    	- requires installation/dismantling each year (although you're
    	  talking only about 1 hour at each end of the year)
    	- Isn't a "structure" like a wooden screen porch - so isn't	
    	  a sturdy against kids "rough-housing" or strong winds
    	- Perhaps isn't as good about keeping ALL bugs out as a permanent
    	  structure would be.
    
    We've decided that, eventually, we'll want to install a 3-season room
    where the deck is now, so we can have screens during the summer and
    a "warm" room during the winter (sunny side of the house).  But it'll
    require a re-build of the whole structure.  If you're talking about
    taking an existing deck and putting a roof/sides on it, you MUST make
    sure the structure can handle the extra weight/size, especially for
    large gatherings or the weight of winter snow.  Plus, you need to
    decide whether you really want a "screen porch" or a real "room"
    that's protected against the elements.  You can probably convert
    a porch to the former with relative ease, but the latter is much
    more difficult for a "conversion".
    
    good luck,
    andy
    

    I built exactly what you're looking for on a house I had in New York
    back in 1983. The building was prefab aluminum, with a metal roof. The
    roof was rather strong because it was built out of multiple U sections
    and could handle Poughkeepsie, NY snow load with a 12' span with no
    intermediate braces. I can't remember the manufacturer, but it was
    light enough that the deck needed no additional bracing. For flooring,
    I put down plywood on the decking inside, after coating it with
    perservative, and then having indoor/outdoor carpet on top. In almost 
    five years I was there, I didn't have any rot problems.
                          
    Eric

I'm thinking of replacing our current porch-enclosing arrangment with something
nicer.  We have full-length wooden screens that have tongue-and-groove edges
for a tight fit.  In the winter, they're replaced by plywood panels that
have small windows cut in them.  The windows are "glazed" with plastic
that tends to tear.  The panels are ugly, but they do cut down on the wind.

My idea depends on the availability and price of non-corrugated fiberglass
panels.  I'd like to build new screens that are semi-permanently attached.
In the winter, fiberglass panels would be attached to the outside of the
screens, possibly by sliding into grooves in the frames.

Is this a reasonable idea?  Do they make non-corrugated fiberglass panels?
Who sells them in So. NH or Eastern Mass? 

    The corrugation is to give the panels strength.  Try calling
    1-800-537-9724 and asking for a copy of the plastics catalog.  This
    catalog sells every kind of plastic good you could ever imagine.  I am
    not kidding.  They sell sheets, bars, tubing, bottles, cans, drums,
    trash cans, mop buckets, chain, safety glasses, laboratory equipment,
    etc.  They sell stuff that has plastic as a component like the cotton
    gloves with the plastic dots on the hands.  They sell stuff like water
    pumps with plastic parts.  They sell everything!  If it is plastic or
    has plastic anywhere near it, its in the catalog.
    
    I just realized you asked for fiberglass.  They may also have
    fiberglass, I am not sure since I don't have a catalog in front of me. 
    Anyway, call them, you make get some ideas you had not thought of. 
    They will also put you on the Industrial Safety Catalog mailing list
    which is the same company but they put in stuff which is safety
    equipment and may not be made of plastic.  Cool catalog.  Safety
    catalog number is 1-800-537-9721.

    I'm planning to replace 3 to 4 storm doors the next couple weeks. I
    like the Forever doors. my plan is to put a " full-view " in the front
    entrance and the traditional on the other entrances. I've seen the
    full-view with the glass installed, but never seen it with the screen
    installed. How does the full-view with the scree look ? Is it as ( or
    look as ) sturdy as the full glass ? Will it stand well in strong wind
    ?
    Somerville Lumber wants $279 for the full-view and $239 for the
    traditional. This is for 32 x 80 size. Can I get a better price arround
    Mass & southern NH ?
    

  The Forever full view with screen installed looks fine. The screen
  panel has a crossbar in the middle, which you might find detracts from
  its appearance, but you pretty much need it to avoid the tendancy to
  push the middle of the very large screen. It looks to be removable,
  though that would leave some small holes (on the inside of the panel).

  As far as wind, the Forever doors handle high winds at least as well
  as other doors I've seen. First of all, they have two closers, top and
  bottom, and the safety chain on the top is well-anchored. In a 90mph
  wind, though, I don't know of any door that's likely to survive with
  the glass installed. The screen panel would have no problem, though.

  As to prices, I don't remember what we paid. We waited 'til they went
  on sale at Somerville.

  Ours have been installed for about a year and a half, and are good as
  new. Those glass panels sure are heavy, though!

    re .35
    I instlled my FV in November and haven't yet put in the screen. Looks
    good.
    
    Some places charge more/less for colors instead of white.
    
    Tell SL that you want to pay their normal sale price ($229) or no deal. 
    You can bargain with them, but be prepared to walk.
    
    If you want a used crossbuck style storm door for a 36" door, send me
    mail. I can offer you a good deal!
    
    ERIC

    I have a Forever Fullview door installed on the front of my house.  
    We don't bother putting the screen in because my son likes to look
    out and we prefer that he doesn't walk out through it.  The only
    problem we have with the door is that it doesn't latch shut on its own
    (see resulting problem below).

    As for the wind, it holds up very well.  We have some serious wind
    coming down our street, which is aligned east-west, almost year round.
    So much so that if you don't put burlap around the shrubs and 
    flowerbeds you won't have anything left come spring.  One day last
    winter the UPS man came to deliver a package and didn't shut the door
    tight.  It was a very windy day and the wind managed to grab the door
    and proceed to wrap it around until it smashed into the outside light,
    almost flat against the house.  The glass held and door held up fine.
    The top and bottom closing rods were bent 90 degrees and the screws
    holding them into the door frame held the wood so well that the frame
    itself tore loose.  The safety chain snapped in half.

    I had to chisel out a 1 foot section at the top and bottom and replace
    the wood.  It cost me $10.00 to replace the closers.  I wasn't happy
    that it happened but I sure was happy I didn't have to replace a $230
    door.  Unfortunately I couldn't use a door hinged on the opposite side,
    which would have prevented this episode in the first place.

    Kevin

    
    
    
    Time to start this one back up.
    
    My screen door was doing the same thing.  It seemed that the frame was
    expanding/contracting etc depending on weather.  I would tap the frame 
    back into place (no obvious movement was noticed) and then the door 
    would close a LITTLE better.  But it had to be pulled in real hard.
    Since it wouldn't close all the way (bottom corner kept catching) the 
    wind would blow it open and it bent the closer arm (shock) so I removed
    that and next thing you know the whole door kept blowing open so much
    the hinges ripped right in half.  
    
    So I need to find hinges for the door.  It just the standard 3
    hinges. I went to home Depot, Builders square etc. and they all
    said that I need to go to the manufacturer for the hinges.  I
    can't find ANYTHING on the door to tell me who made it.  I don't
    know where to start or end up.  I tried to see if I could find
    a hinge that came close to what I needed, no luck.  
    
    I would like to find the long strip of hinge that runs the length
    of the door, that way it would hold the door in place better.
    
    Does anyone know of a place in the Nashua/Milford NH area that 
    can help me with this screen door?
    
    (BTW, I always thought "screen doors" were what was on sliders, and
    storm doors were what was in front of your front or back entrance
    door)
    
     

"screen door" -- light duty door that is covered with screening
"storm door" -- light duty door that is covered with glass
"combination door" -- has replacable storm and screen panels
			(often just called a storm door)

A long strip hinge is called a "piano hinge", and I thought most
hardware stores carried them.  That might work well.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I'm now in the market for a "full view" storm door, and my initial
    choice is the Enco Forever door, mostly because it offers the most
    glass area of any storm door I've seen.  But I'm not thrilled with
    the idea of the brass screws which hold the glass in place; they're
    ugly and could strip, and the "modern" look of the door doesn't
    quite suit my home's style.  I also don't like the look of the
    handle.
    
    I've also seen doors by Cole-Sewell; the only one I would be
    interested in is the "Estate Series Model 5500".  It is thinner
    than the Enco, and is made of aluminum bonded to particleboard.
    The glass area is somewhat smaller than the Enco, but the glass is
    held in with a plastic spine against a vinyl channel and the handle
    looks nice.
    
    Does anyone have experience with Cole-Sewell?  Is there a problem with
    the Enco doors conducting cold through the aluminum skin?  I didn't see
    a mention of a thermal break in their literature.  
    
    				Steve

Steve, I'm not sure why you're worried about the brass screws which
secure the panels on the Emco door. There are eight of them, and
they're hefty machine thumb screws which screw into brass fittings (not
threaded holes in the aluminum). They look to be way over-margined for
the job, and I doubt you'd ever get a problem from them. As to ugly,
well, I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. I don't mind them, but
I can see how someone might.

The Emco doors do have a thermal break (it's in some of the literature
-- maybe the stuff that came with the door). They're so good that
during all except the coldest winter days, we can leave the main doors
open and just use the Emco doors.

However, I should mention that I was reasonably impressed with Sears
best door. I don't have any experience with it, though, so don't know
how it compares.

If we're talking about those thumb screws that are threaded into the
aluminum frame, then I agree that they don't look so hot -- although
brass ones should look a lot better than the steel ones that I had on 
my (rather unsatisfactory) Sears middle priced storm door.

I never managed to strip them, but I did strip one on my air conditioner.
It's a real pain -- I know of no way to fix it once it gets stripped,
unless maybe one could buy a (non matching) screw in a larger size.

I found the process of changing the panels on my full-view storm door 
so annoying that I won't get one again.  A full size glass panel isn't
light -- and carting it up and down the basement stairs wasn't fun, either.
A neighbor who had one solved the problem by simply never taking out the 
glass.  As a result, the plastic inserts on his back door melted.  That can 
happen if the summer sun shines on the storm door.

The next time I buy a storm door, I'll settle for 2/3 glass/screen area.
I'll also pay enough to get one that is rigid enough and straight enough
to meet the frame on all sides when it is closed.  The biggest advantage of
a storm door is in reduce air infiltration, but mine didn't help a whole
lot with that.  Note that if the door is mostly glass, it hardly matters
how much R-value the frame has.  The R-value of the total door will be
that of the glass, or about .5, and the effective insulation value of the
door will likely be dominated by the reduced air infiltration.  Maybe the
frame insulation matters on a half view door, but not on a full view.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Larry has a good point about the weight of that double-paned glass
panel. Every time I change them (on the two Emco doors we have), I
wonder at what age I won't be able to do it anymore.

But:

> Note that if the door is mostly glass, it hardly matters
> how much R-value the frame has.

Let's not be too hasty. If you have a door which measures 36" x 6'8"
(80"), you've got 2880 square inches of total door area. Let's say your
full-view door has a 5" wide frame. That makes the glass panels 26" x
70", for 1820 sq in of glass, leaving 1060 sq in of frame; almost 37%
of the door is not glass. That's a high enough percentage to be
interested in the insulation provided by the frame.

Re closing flat, the Emco door (and Sears best, if I recall) have both
top and bottom closers which solve this problem.

Enco offers insulated glass for the Forever Door - in the XL model.
The Cole-Sewell door also has two closers.

As I remarked earlier in this topic, I once owned a Sears "best" door.  It
was ok, but for the price, the Enco is far better.

				Steve

Let's say the glass is R 0.5, the frame is R 3.0, and the frame covers
1/3 of the door area.  The R value equation is

	1/R = (1/3)/3.0 + (2/3)/0.5 = 1/0.7

So the overall R value of the door is 0.7 -- not a very big improvement.
This seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.  A small area of low R-value
has a disproportionate effect on the R-value of a barrier.  

I had only one closer, at the top of the door, so that must have been
part of my problem.  However, the shape of the door was heavily determined
by the weight and shape of the glass panel.  The glass panel didn't fit 
very well -- it took some wedging to get it in.  That probably helped to 
warp the door in the frame.  I will personally still stay away from 
full view, although I didn't mean to suggest that anyone else ought to.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

> The R value equation is
> 1/R = (1/3)/3.0 + (2/3)/0.5 = 1/0.7

Are you sure? This equation would yield an R value of 0 for a door (and
the entire house it's in) in which one sq inch had an R value of zero.
That's obviously not correct. I would've thought that the equation
would be a simple weighted average of the R values, not the reciprocal
of the weighted average of the reciprocals. So, for our example (and
we'll use .37 -- so there :-):

	R = .37*3.0 + .63*0.5 = 1.4

The equation is correct.  If there was no restriction of heat moving around
inside your house from warm spots to cool spots, and no insulation for that tiny
spot (no restriction of heat moving out if that spot), then all the heat inside
your house would rush outside with infinite speed.

In practice, it takes a while for all that heat to move around inside your
house.

								-- Chuck Newman

Even empty air has an R value, so there cannot really be any zeros in the
R value equation.  Also, the actual heat loss of a house depends a lot on
the air infiltration (including the "stack effect" of cold air seeping in
at the lower levels and warm air seeping out at the roof level).  So the
R value only tells a part of the story anyway.  

To gain some intuition on how R values work, consider installing some
fiberglass insulation two different ways:  either evenly spread over
the whole wall, or else with half the wall uninsulated and the other
half double thick.  If you simply average the R values of the two sides,
both methods result in the same number, but it is clear that the second
method will leave you far colder -- in fact, not a lot warmer than if
you had put up no insulation at all.

R values add up the same way as resistors do -- which makes sense -- the R
value is a measure of resistance to heat movement.  When you are adding a 
layer of insulation on top of another, directly add the two R values.  When
you are placing two pieces of insulation "in parallel", take the reciprocal
of the sums of the reciprocals.  The only difference between resistors and
insulation is that for insulation you have to account for relative areas.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Thanks for the excellent explanations. I stand corrected.

    
    
    Does anyone have a ball park figure for the price/sq ft of a deck?
    I'm trying to figure roughly what it will cost me to have a 
    contractor come in and build a deck.  If it's $5/sq ft, I can
    build twice as much deck as if it's $10/sq ft.  
    
    My current plan is to build a deck roughly 25 x 14, but I would
    love to span the entire back of the house (60 x 14) if I could afford
    it.
    
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
    

    
    You might want to check a Grossmans or Summerville flyer and
    and see what prices are for decking. (ex), a 12x12 may cost
    $600 (top of head ball park figure) for materials. and that
    dosnt include footing or style of materials used.  no less
    the cost of construction.
    
    A few weeks ago on CH2 they(the 2 that are supposed to be married
    program) were building a raised deck on the total backside of a house.
    
    
    JD

>>                       <<< Note 1255.32 by STAR::APGAR >>>
>>                             -< price per sq ft? >-

Depending on style,  a DIY deck costs around $5-6/sq ft.  Having a
building do it for you will cost you $10+/sq ft.

I built a 450 sq ft. deck last summer myself and it cost my around
$2700 for everything ( $6/sq ft. )  I probably could have done it
cheaper,  but I oversized the framing to make it extra sturdy.

Garry

    The lowest cost I've been able to come up with for decks in about $4
    per square foot, using PT wood. Your roof will cost as much as the deck
    and screening doesn't come cheap either. My guess would be in the $12
    per square foot range and this is for *materials only*.
    

    I have also completed a 20x20 deck this summer. Overall cost was
    $5/sqft. Since my brother does this (NJ) starting at $9, I second the
    $10 figure.

    Assuming that Spring is here to stay, we hope to be putting the screen
    door on our sliding glass patio door in soon.  It's a new screen and we
    need to figure out a way to prevent our cat from picking it to
    death.  This is his little diabolical way of signaling us when he wants
    to come in, and over the course of the summer he really does a number
    on the screen door to say nothing of the number of times we've had to
    rescue him when his claws get stuck in the screening.
    
    De-clawing him is not an option.  I'm wondering if it would be possible
    to put something like plexiglass over that portion of the screen that
    gets picked.
    
    Any ideas?

RE: <<< Note 4927.0 by MCIS2::NANCYZ >>>
    

 A rolled up newspaper briskly applied to the offender worked for us.

 Haven't had to replace a single screen in 2 years now.

<    De-clawing him is not an option.  I'm wondering if it would be possible
<    to put something like plexiglass over that portion of the screen that
<    gets picked.
    
   Plexiglass is one option, I'd also look at using one of the decorative
aluminum sheets you can purchase at most decent hardware stores (and some not
so decent).  They are thin panels (1/64 - 1/32 thick) about 30" - 36" square
that have a pattern of holes.  They are easy to cut, bend, and attach.  I've
seem them in standard aluminum, brass colored, and black. 

   I've seen them at Grossman's, Ace and True Value as well as real hardware
stores...

good luck,

Al

    
    electrofy the screen.  the cat would only need to touch it once.

If you attach a piece of something to the bottom part of the screen, the
cat will (probably) just jump up and cling to the top part.

Water works real well on cats (they hate it), and you don't have to be close
either if you use a spray bottle.  You can even spray through the screen!

    We solved this by cutting a cat door into the screen. 
    
    Layed duct tape over the bottom corner of the door on both sides, cut
    out a "u"  flap, and the cats can walk in and out as they please. 
    
    It's not the most attractive (but not ugly either). We used to have to
    replace the screen door 1-3 times per summer after cat damage extended
    to the points that we had to couldn't keep the mosquitos bugs out!

    Years ago I read in a hi-fi magazine about a technique for keeping cats
    from climbing the grill cloth of a floor-standing speaker.  Perhaps the
    same trick would work for screen doors.

	1.  Surround the base of the object to be protected with a bunch of
	    mouse traps (set to snap, but no cheese).

	2.  Carefully cover the mouse traps with a couple of sheets of
	    newspaper.

    The theory is that the cat sets off the traps, the newspaper protects
    the cat from injury, and the cat quickly learns to stay away from the
    scary speaker (or screen door) monster.

    -- Ward

    You can buy cat doors that are specifically made for sliders and which
    are removeable as desired.
    
    				Steve

If the screen is fiberglass, as ours was, replace it with an aluminum screen.  
This doesn't eliminate the problem, but the screen lasts longer.  We successfully
used the plexiglas on a fullview storm door because there was enough of a frame
to screw into.  The screen was had on our slider was to flimsy a frame to be able
to support the screws.  

We have tried the water spray with mixed results.  One of our cats now runs away
if I try to let her in (the big mean guy with the spray bottle), the other 
ignores the water entirely, and returns to strum the door again and again.
We tried the cat door route, too, but gave up when we started to find "choice
morsels" left as a token of appreciation to Mr & Mrs Food.  Actually, the morsels
were not as annoying as the live playtoys that would get away inside.

 

re: .8


My cat does the same thing, so I replaced the fibreglass screen with
aluminum and added a sewn-on aluminum screen overlay right where she pulls
the door open. The overlay is about 8"x8", on the inside and outside and
attached using the aluminum threads pulled from a scrap.

Been there 6 years now.

If I could only teach Shadow to at least close the door...


Chris

    
    re; a few back on mousetraps....
    
    our kitten was using the computer table to get to a shelf higher
    up on the wall where she would procede to clear it off so she
    could lie down. We placed a few traps covered with paper lining
    her normal route. The first couple times they would startle her
    when they snapped but after awhile she would carefully step around
    the lumps in the newspaper. So we put more lumps(using wads of paper)
    she then would press on the paper and would snap the trap (if it was
    one) and continue on.... The traps are back collecting dust in the
    basement.
    
    

    
    
    ...I liked the idea of the Hot wired screen!!:):):):)
    
    

    Re: all
    
    Thanks for the responses..  I gather that some of you who 
    suggested electrifying the screen door, mouse traps and water pistols
    are probably not regular contributors to the FELINE conference..8<)
    (I have to admit that the thought of an electrified cat, permanently
    splayed across the screen door did bring a smile.  A new low in
    deck ornamentation.)
    
    The screen savers sound like a good first pass.  Duff may just be too lazy
    to try reaching.  We'll see.

    Our cat did the same thing to screen doors.
    
    We GOT RID of the cat!

    We were very successful using a product called BOUNDARY on some
    furniture to keep the cats away.  How it would work on a screen, 
    I'm not sure.
    
    The stuff comes in a spray can and can be applied directly to fabric,
    wood or even around plants to keep cats and dogs away.  It has a mildly
    acidic smell when used indoors but dissipates quickly.  You do have to
    reapply it as the scent wears off or untill the animal gets the point. 
    It seems to work better if you can get it on *before* the animal has 
    taken a shine to whatever it is.  It doesn't seem to be as effective 
    after the $%$&^@#@! animal has gotten the habit.  It is sold at most 
    pet stores.
    
    TK

    Once upon a time, we had a big party.  The cats don't like parties, so
    they hid out in the basement.  Unfortunately, a bunch of guests decided
    to give themselves a tour of the house and went into the basement.  One
    of the cats was very unhappy about this, so he streaked upstairs, out
    the slider, and onto the screen porch.  The porch door wasn't open, so he
    went straight through the screen.
    
    Ever since, the cat has known that a firm butt of the head will "open"
    any screen, and that the screen can be opened much faster than a person
    can walk from the slider to the screen porch door.  We now have a cat 
    door in the screen porch.  We removed the screen frame, and installed a 
    wooden subframe into the screen frame.  The cat door is mounted into
    the wooden frame.  Our screen porch and screen frames are wood, so this
    was not a difficult operation.
    
    The only draw back to this is that the brand of pet door we used
    (Johnson) gets very stiff in the cold.  Stiff enough that the screen is
    easier to get through (sigh...).  But at least we are down to fixing
    the screen only once a year, in the spring.  One of these days we'll
    replace the cat door with a brand that doesn't depend on flexible
    flapping plastic. 
    
    Margaret. 
    (Really a dog person!)

    PS: We now post a prominent "do not disturb" sign on the basement door
    during large & noisy parties.

    Home Depot in Nashua has "Pet Grilles" specially designed for
    storm and screen doors; the display has a drawing of a cat bursting
    through a screen door.
    
    				Steve

    
    "They taste just like chicken..."

There's a lot more dark meat on a cat, though...

    re: the last two... your comments were not appropriate.  

    re: MCIS2::NANCYZ 

>>    Thanks for the responses..  I gather that some of you who 
>>    suggested electrifying the screen door, mouse traps and water pistols
>>    are probably not regular contributors to the FELINE conference..8<)

	Actually, water pistols are HIGHLY recommended in FELINE as
	a mode of discipline.  The cat doesn't get hurt and learns
	from it (mine didn't but perhaps I wasn't consistent enough).

	Karen

    Your smarter cats merely learn not to exhibit the offending behavior
    when in the presence of a water-pistol-wielding human.  It took ours
    about a month to figure this out.

	Yep, our cat learned pretty quickly how *not* to get sprayed, too.
	We were trying to stop her from scratching on our bedroom door
	in the morning, and she learned to listen for the sound of the
	water swishing around in the spray bottle, so...

	Don't remember if the solution that finally worked was in FELINES
	or another usenet conference, but maybe this will work for you:

	We took our vacuum cleaner and stood it outside our bedroom
	door, ran the plug into the bedroom, plugged it into a power strip
	with an on/off switch that we could reach from bed, and waited.
	The next time Tribble (the cat in question) scratched on the door,
	we hit the switch.  The VRRRRROOOOOOOOM of the vacuum taught her
	very quickly that such behavior was not acceptable.

	Now in the morning, she now sits patiently and QUITELY outside
	our bedroom door.

	Take care,
	Tara

    An old saying from somewhere:
    
    	Never try to out-stubborn a cat.
    

    
    I laughed when I saw the note about the vacuum cleaner.  It really
    works.  I have 11 cats (no, i'm NOT crazy) and when they even SEE
    the vacuum they just boogie!  You'd never even know there was a cat
    in the house when that vacuum is around.  :-)
    
    N

    
    What a coincidence ! My wife called me earlier this morning to
    inform me that our two dogs bolted out into the screened porch
    to chase a squirrel or something and the cat proceded to exit
    the porch through the screen door. I told her to put the storm
    window in the door until I fixed the screen.
    She called me later claiming to be the next Joanne Leibler 'cause
    she replaced the screen herself ! Guess I trained her right !
    
    Randy
    

    Gee wonders never cease - a woman changed a screen.......
    
    Joyce

    A good friend of mine has a cat that drives her crazy when she vacuums. 
    The cat wants to be vacuumed and won't leave until he is.  She vacuums
    him first, and then the carpet.
    
    Karen
    

    
    I am thinking of adding a screened-in-porch on my house but where
    I want to put it is right over the septic tank. I know it is 
    possible, but I'm concerned about what happens in the future 
    when/if problems occur. 
    
    So... I'm looking for any information you may be able to share 
    	with me. Any input on :
    
    	1) Is there a risk in doing this (understanding that I must 
    		not place any weight directly on it)  If I do so,
    		what is the average life of a septic tank ?  Will I 
    		need to replace it ?
    
    	2) How difficult and costly is it to move the tank to another 
    		location, using the same septic tank and leachfield ?
    
    	3) Have any other suggestions (any other location for the porch
    		is pertty much out of the question...) ?? 
     
    	Thanks for any information you may have....Paul      
    

Don't forget the tank cover.  I think that's your only access for 
pumping/cleaning the tank...

Dan

    Check with your town building inspector - there may be regulations on
    this.  You'll need a building permit anyway.
    
    				Steve

I assume it's a concrete tank? If so, it will last forever, and should
be moveable, with a lot of effort. I'd definitely consider moving it.

-Jack

    	I definitely wouldn't build the porch directly over the access to
    the septic tank. Consider that you'll be having it pumped out every 2-3
    years (despite what anyone tells you). So that means you'll be digging
    and the pumpers will be pumping from under your porch. From one who has
    had many septic problems in the past, move one or the other.

re: .0

Well, there's a couple of things that might make a difference.  How close to the
ground will the porch be?  If a person will still be able to stand under it,
you might still be okay for pumping the system out.  If it would be only a
crawl space, I think the suggestions in previous replies are prudent.  I think
it's pretty difficult to move a septic tank.  If you are in Massachusetts, you'd 
have to pay for quite a bit of engineering work to find another acceptable place
to move it do.  Not to mention the fact of ripping two large holes in your
yard, plus trenches for the piping.  Another fact to consider is whatever
machine would move the tank would have to be large enough to do so, but something
that large could do a lot of damage to lawn, driveway, and perhaps the rest of
your septic pipes and leach field.

If you are in the latter case, you may want to consult with a septic engineer
first, just to see what you'd be in for.

Elaine

    RE:4

    >                 Consider that you'll be having it pumped out every 2-3
    >years (despite what anyone tells you). 

    	What makes you say this?  If you have a healthy system I would at
    least double your recommendation to 5 - 6 years.  In theory if your
    system is working properly you should never have to pump it out. 
    Pumping a septic system at 2 year intervals is over kill in my book
    and the only one to benefit from it will be the folks that pump it for
    you.  My neighbor just had his pumped after 10 years with no ill
    effects and I'm going on 4 and no problems.  If the systems faulty
    and needs to be pumped that often then it should be fixed, repaired or
    replaced.

    Joe 

    
    When I had my tank inspected when I purchased my home the guy from
    the sewer pumper told me I should expect to have it pumped every
    2-3 years. I had to laugh because I know it's been over 15 years 
    for my folks (their previous record was around 10, when the pumper 
    came he told them they had roughly half a load!). Granted, my folks 
    are VERY careful about not putting grease, colored toilet paper, 
    powdered cleansers, kitchen waste etc down the pipes.
    
    
    								-Mac

    My septic tank was pumped when we moved in. I was told it had never
    been pumped in the 11 years since the house was built.  There was no
    solid sludge on top.  I had it pumped again after 10 years.  Still no
    solid sludge.  After another 8 years, we had sewer installed.  Still no
    hard sludge and the leach field (torn up for the sewer line) looked
    just fine.  This was use of a growing family of 4.
    
    The quality and size of the leach field as well as the composition of
    the dirt fill can determine how well fluids are dispersed from the
    tank.  However, if you are careful about only flushing down ONLY human
    waste, water and toilet paper, it is likely you can go more than 3
    years between pumping.
    
    Dave

Yes, but you don't have a screen porch over your tank.  If you did, by Murphy's
Law, you'd need to pump it more often.

To uneducated septic system users, for every note like the last three who have
no problems, there is one who has to have theirs pumped at least every two to
three years.

You may have no problems, but you still can't make it inaccessible.

Let's get back to the topic

Elaine

    re .9
    
    You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the applicability of
    Murphy's Law.  My experiences with long time between septic tank
    pumping notwithstanding, I would never, never put a structure over a
    septic tank and/or leach field.  Access for pumping is a trivial
    problem.  If the leach field needs replacement, you are out 10K+/- for
    the work as well as ~?K to tear down and rebuild the structure.

    
    First off, I have to agree with Elaine; Murphy is always
    looking for a place to strike.  :^)
    
    My suggestion is: If the floor of the porch is to be less
    in height from the ground than what a person cares to dig
    in, build in a trap door of about 4'X 4' right over the
    tank cover, and another little door on the side so the
    man don't have to drag his "dirty" hose across the porch 
    floor.
    
    Fred
    

    RE:.9
    
    	Elaine sounds like Murphy got you.  Well he got me too 4 years 
    ago 15k+ to replace a bad leach feild that was put in wrong 7 years
    earlier.
    
    Joe 

    
    	First off... thanks for all of the replies to my question. I've not 
    	had a chance to review the replies for a while and I'm sorry to 
    	be replying after such a time span. 
    
    	If I build over the septic tank, I had planned to leave some sort 
    	of access to cover so I could have it occasionally pumped out. I 
    	am in the camp of those specifying that it be pumped every 3 or so 
    	years and have done so. 
    
    	My real concern is just how long will my septic tank last ?   How 
        long should it be before I plan to replace the tank. In theory, I
    	agree that it should last indefinately (or close to it) BUT... 
    	well... Murphy can surely strike the tank itself. 
    
    	I have spoken to a few contractors who suggest it be moved. Then
        again, they have a financial interest in my doing so. As for the 
        building inspector, I haven't yet contacted him but will do so. 
    
    	As of this point, I believe I'll most likely take my chances and
    	build over the tank. Currently, I have a deck located over the tank 
    	which is just about ready for repair. The corner of the deck is 
    	cantilevered over the cover (makes it easy to find) but this will 
    	never support the weight of a roof, etc.
    
    	Thanks again... Paul
    
    	  

    Paul,
    
    The tank's not the issue (beyond pumping out); it is a concrete bunker
    that should last through the nuclear holocast.  Any problems, if any,
    will come from the leach field; pipes get clogged, pipes crumble, field
    gets so packed it cannot drain any longer, etc.  THAT is where Murphy
    might take a  10K-15K nibble out of your checkbook.
    
    Dave

     I agree with .14 with one caveat.  Before you build something permanent
over it, make sure the septic tank is big enough for the forseeable future. 
The one thing that might cause you to need to replace the septic tank is if
you need a bigger one.  I can think of a couple of instances in which you
might need a bigger one.
     If you add on a bedroom (which building inspectors/health boards take
to mean more occupants) you may need a bigger septic tank in order to get
the permit.  And it would be based on contemporary standards for the
capacity of septic tank per number of occupants, which are probably
different than what they were when your house was built.
     Second, if the leach field fails (per .14) and you need to replace it,
the repairs may need some sort of approval.  For the plans for the new
septic system to be approved, you may to have a bigger tank, since, as I
mentioned above, contemporary standards are more strict than they were a few
years ago.
     Just as an example, a few years ago, we put on an addition, which did
not increase the number of bedrooms.  We needed to move the septic tank,
which was sort of lucky timing, because the leach field was ready to fail. 
We had a 500 gallon tank, but the health inspector insisted on a 1000 gallon
tank, and strongly recommended a 1500.  Since the excavation had to be done
anyway, and 1500 wasn't that much more than the 1000, we opted for the 1500.
     So before I built anything permanent over it, I'd make sure that the
tank is big enough for any forseeable events.

Clay

	I just built a new porch, on a house I have on the cape, and this
	porch, has an overhanging roof. 

	I'm thinking of screeninging the porch, and will need to build
	12 4x8 screen panels (I want them to be removable?

	The panels will be made of 1x3 pine, with corner fasteners.

	When I priced the materials for this last year, it was @$700.00
	which is more than I would like to spend.

	Anyone have any ideas how I could get out of this cheaper?
	These panels go from the floor, up to the roof.

	Thanks

	Ken Holland

How does the price (the $700) break down? If you buy 1x12 from someplace like
Bingham's in Brookline and rip it to 1x3 yourself, the lumber shouldn't even
approach $150. On the screening you've got the choice of fiberglass or aluminum
but I don't know which you priced or how they compare, offhand. But I'd bet you
can get a 100' roll of 48" screening for under $150 as well. Miscellaneous
hardware - maybe $50 tops?

$700 seems high to me.

-Jack

    
    	You can buy the screen pannels that go to the free standing screen 
    rooms you see at grossmans and those types of stores they come in a 
    couple different sizes and are 30.00 a piece.
    
    
    			John

>	On the screening you've got the choice of fiberglass or aluminum

When putting up a screen house, do most of you worry about screening off the 
floor in some way?

I'm plan on laying down some sort of screening across the top of the joists
before I lay the decking down.  What type of screening would be a good choice?

Dan

re: .-1

I've always seen the fiberglass type used under the flooring. I believe because
it's less expensive than the aluminum, will see virtually no wear, and does
just as good a job in that application.

-Jack

    The carpenter that screened my porch put screening on the *under* side
    of the floor joists. He thought this was better than screening above
    the joists, as it allows dirt, etc. to fall between the decking boards
    without clogging up the spaces. 
    
    For the removable screen panels he used a 1"x 2" board made especially
    for screen frames. It has a surface on which you can staple the screen,
    and then conceal the stapled edge with a thin strip of wood. Make sure
    you paint the frame materials before you make up the screen panels. 
    
    As for screen materials, I think aluminum is much better than
    fiberglas. We used the charcoal color -- it's almost invisible when
    looking out from the porch. 

	If you're going to put screening under the floor, think about what
	you'd like to have happen to things that fall between the floor
	boards. Dirt is one possibility, but then there are the things that
	you might want back, like small screwdrivers, eating utensils, etc.
	It may be easier to retrieve these items if the screen is tight up
	against the bottom of the floor, rather than at the bottom of the
	joists.

	It also depends on how accessible the underside of the deck will be
	when it's done. If it's only a foot or so off the ground, that's
	differen than if you can easily crawl under it.

	Roy

    Well, what we did was to put down the fake grass. It kept the bugs out,
    it rolled up and out of the way for the winter or if we had to get
    under it for some reason and it it gets ruined, who cares. It might not
    have been the most elegant solution, but it's a possibility.

    re: .7
    
    That may work well if your porch isn't full screen (32" wall, then
    screen), but the house we bought had fake grass on a full
    screen porch, and it wrecked parts of the floor.  It trapped moisture 
    in if rain blew onto the porch, and unless you rolled it up 
    every time it got wet, it rots the boards underneath over time.
    
    We hauled it out and lived with the resulting winged creatures.
    
    Mary-Micheal   

Screens vs. Mosquitoes .... Here's my puzzle:

We put up a screen porch last summer - with metal instead of nylon screens. 
 I noticed the other night that the screens have little holes in them, 
about eye height or higher.  I cannot imagine what could have made these.  
They look like what you'd see if the mosquitoes were spreading the wires 
apart to pry open a space big enough for them to get through.  

Now I've swatted my share of mosquitoes and am skeptical that they would 
actually be able to pry an opening in the screen.  But what DOES pry open 
these spaces????  Based on the little indentation at the spot, it is clear 
that the pressure comes from the outside.  

Any hypothoses?

-Sheila

    
    	Easy... 
    
	Birds are "discovering" the screens when they attempt to
    	fly through the "openings". A sudden stop and rude BOING
    	later and the only evidence left behind is a beak imprint
    	on the screen.
    
    	Now allow me to digress and tell you the story of a former
    	neighbor who left openings for picture windows on either 
    	side of his breezeway. He installed the windows about a year
    	after the house was finished (and after a year of having 
    	B-52 sized crows get their jollies by looping through the
    	breezeway). The result was replacing the picture windows 
    	twice (after finding dead crows and broken glass) before 
    	installing windows with lattice.
    
    							- Mac
                               

June bugs?  They hit the screens with a big whack ...

-Chris

    
    About the size of a .177 bb pellet? 

How about neighborhood cats ??

My cats are constantly jumping on the screens to get at bugs and
their claws spread the screen holes alittle.

I think the bird theory actually works pretty well!  There's another clue I 
discovered last night.  These little holes seem appear only near the center of the 
screen pannels -- always 6 inces or more from the support posts, and always 6-7 feet 
up - just the right swooping range.  

The June bug theory is a contender, but when June bugs hit my window screens, they 
seem to be all over it -- as likely to be at the bottom and middle as at the top of 
the screen -- unlike these little holes.  

A bb gun would certainly be a possibility, given the size, but the angle doesn't seem 
right, we haven't seen any pellets, and we're pretty well surrounded by dense woods. 
Even if the dog didn't bark, the mosquitoes would be fierce enough to shrivel the 
little hoodlums into raisins and carry them off.

The cat theory sounds pretty plausible, except that there would probably be claw 
tracks, moving from one point to the other, rather than clustered in the upper center 
of the screen.  I have noticed the squirrels using the screens as climbing boards, 
but I've never seen them on the screen panel that has the most holes.

Thanks for the theories!
Sheila

                  <<< Note 1158.7 by BXCSRV::JULIEN::JULIEN >>>

	You're sentences are going off the end of the screen.

    
    .8
    
    >	You're sentences are going off the end of the screen.
    
    There must be holes in the END of ::Juliens' screen too.
    

Really?  The sentences all show in MY screen.
Maybe it's the PC interface ....

>.9 cute pun!

    You've just made your window too wide. Reduce it to 80 characters.
    Common problem with people using the PC notes interface without
    being careful about windows sizes.
    
    re .8
    
    You're spelling "your" incorrectly...

>    You're spelling "your" incorrectly...

	Doh!!!  You're write!



	Rite?  Right!

>>    You've just made your window too wide. Reduce it to 80 characters.

And by the way... With 80 character wide windows, you won't get those little
holes in your screens.

    Giving a good swat after about six incidents, taught the cat to paw at
    the window, not at the screen.  no matter if the screen door is open
    (on the right side) or closed (on the left side)  the cat goes to the 
    other side and paws at the window, not at the screen.  That was 2 years
    ago and the cat hasn't forgotten.  
    tom
    

    
    I just got an estimate  of $5800 from a contractor to turn my 12x15
    deck into a screened-in porch.  The price included 2 skylights
    (non-opening kind) and clapboarding up to about 32" high or so, all the
    way around, so that we could turn it into a 3-season porch, later if we
    wanted to.
    
    I cranked up Excel and did a pretty detailed bill of materials, based
    on the dimensions and features we asked for, using prices from the
    Nashua, NH Home Depot (as of last night) and I could only account for
    about $2200 worth of material costs for the *whole thing*.  
    
    This leaves about $3600 for labor.   Am I cheap, or does this sound a
    little on the expensive side ? 
    
    The guys just did a deck for my neighbor and I was impressed with the
    quality of their work (that's why I asked them for a quote). However, I
    don't think I'm ready to pay *that* much for the quality.
    
    All comments and insights will be appreciated.
    
    /doug
    
    

    I should note that this project entailed completely replacing the
    existing deck, since it would never hold the weight of the  roof, etc.
    I am also planning on doing the existing dec demolition and pouring
    additional footings.
    
    /doug
    

>    I am also planning on doing the existing dec demolition and pouring
>    additional footings.

The SLT does a fine job of DEC demolition.

We had a screen porch done last year, and $5800 sounds reasonable to me for what
you're getting.  I would say that if you were impressed with the quality of
their work, then that quality probably comes at a price.  There is a lot of
labor involved in the construction.

Since you're talking about a possible future conversion to a 3-season porch,
then I would recommend that you choose the window units NOW that you will want
to install, and size your rough openings to fit those window units.

Also, roofed porches will cut down a LOT of the light that you're used to having
now from getting into your house.  I would consider either more or bigger
skylights.  Paint the ceiling white too.

-Chris

	Whether or not the price sounds reasonable, it would be foolish to
	undertake such a project without at least 2 more estimates.

	Roy

I strongly recommend you get another estimate from Mike Dargin (508-486-4603). 
He did a 12x12 screen porch for me including footings around $4K, about 2 years
ago.  Superb quality, and a very nice guy.  

					-JP

    I don't have any ideas for woods to use, but I can confirm that
    pressure-treated wood shrinks an amazing amount.  I built a new
    cargo box to replace the rusted-out back on my pickup truck using
    pressure treated wood, about a month ago, and already there are
    gaps up to 3/8" wide between boards that were absolutely tight
    when I put them in.
    If you could buy the wood and let it sit for six months you could
    get around that problem...but you still have the problem of it not
    being something you want kids crawling around on.

I would recommend fir, treated with a waterproofing stain.  That's what I did
and it seems to be working fine.  No shrinkage I can spot.

			Steve

>    If you could buy the wood and let it sit for six months you could
>    get around that problem...

Has onyone tried this?  I'd bet that warping would be your next problem.

I pulled up the PT decking boards (5/4x6x16) of a 5 year old deck, and after
about 1 month many started to warp (and in some odd ways).

Dan

	Our screened-in porch is in pretty darn good shape with its painted
	2x6 flooring. The boards are only painted on the tops, too. There is
	one section that is rotted out, but when you consider that the porch
	is about 25 years old, I'd say that it's come through quite well.

	Since it'll be covered and have a knee wall, I'd think that straight
	pine, with the finish of your choice, will be just fine. And a lot
	cheaper than PT to boot.

	Roy

    
    Re: .47
    
    So Doug, what kind of wood does your 25 year old porch floor use?
             does the floor slope away from the house?
    
    

>    Re: .47
>    
>    So Doug, what kind of wood does your 25 year old porch floor use?
>             does the floor slope away from the house?

	My name's not Doug, but...

	It's just painted 2x6 pine, no particualr slope. But like I said, it
	has a roof, and I think that makes all the difference in the world.

	Roy

    *I'm* Doug.
    
    Just for an update:
    
    Looks like we'll be going with the Mahogany.   I've never heard of
    anyone else using it, but Mike really sold us on it.  (Especially when
    we compared the price to using vertical grain fir!)
    
    We're scheduled to begin demolition of the old deck the last of this
    month...  Then I get to dig new footings.  Oh joy.
    
    I'll try to remember to follow up in here as the project progresses.  
    
    /doug

Give Mike my regards!

    Don't know what the quality is but Somerville Lumber had mahogany deck
    material for $0.69 per linear foot.  Sounds like a good price but then
    I haven't been shopping around for mahogany decking.
    
    						John

I wanted to drop a quick update, since I will be leaving Digital and my last
day is Wednesday next week.  

Well, all nine footings are in (thanks to the assistance of two strapping
brothers-in-law...).   It ain't easy poking 4' holes in New England, for
the benefit of those reading from other areas.  Could've been worse I
suppose: it could've been solid red clay all the way down, just like back
home in East Texas... ;^_

Anyway, construction should start Wed next week.  I'm loking forward to
watching someone _else_ work a little bit.    I've put down some 4.5 mil
plastic and started covering it with about 2-3" of 1/2" gravel.  Hopefully,
this will help the drainage & keep mosquitos out from under the deck.   

In case I don't get a a chance to pop in here before I go, I must say that
I will sorely miss access to the accumulated knowledge that's in this
conference.  Contributors to home_work have helped me work through a *lot* of
projects that I may not've had the courage or common sense to deal with
otherwise.   

Regards, 
/doug (mcdoug@delphi.com)

    Hi,
    
    This is Sandy, Doug's (from previous reply) wife.  I just wanted to
    follow up for Doug and let everyone know that we are *extremely*
    pleased with our choice of flooring (Mahogany) *and* our contractor
    (Mike Dargin).
    
    The mahogany decking looks really good!   We'll have to hurry up and
    finish the inside, now!
    
    Mike's work was top-notch.  The details on all the joints and finish
    work are perfect.  You can tell by looking at it that he and his crew
    are good, conscientious carpenters.   The deck went up fast! There was
    only three of them and they had the whole thing done in about 1.5
    weeks...
    
    At any rate: two thumbs up!
    
    Sandy

I have a screened-in porch in need of repair.  The screens are removable,
wood-framed.  At least one of the frames needs to be rebuilt, and the
rest of the frames are fine but need new screening.  I'm looking for a
contractor-type in the So. NH area who can do this work - a good job at
a reasonable cost.  The only business I could find in the yellow pages
that even comes close to this kind of work is Nashua Glass on Chestnut
Street in Nashua.  Has anyone out there had any experience with Nashua
Glass?  Do you know of any other contractors/businesses that do this
kind of work?

Thanks,
Kathy Z.

    
    NHD hardware stores offer rescreening.

I didn't see a listing for NHD hardware.
Are they in Nashua?

Thanks,
Kathy

I think most hardware stores will do it.  Try Hammar or Osgood's in Nashua.
NHD is a chain of hardware stores that I've found to be overpriced and
understocked.

There used to be a NHD store in the Westside Plaza in Nashua, but it closed a 
couple of years back.

				Steve