Conference 7.286::home_work

    I thought about one last year.  Hammer Hardware rents em for 125
    per day, with bucket or back hoe.  The Taylor rental in Amherst
    also quoted 125, but didn't have a back hoe.
    
    They seemed real simple to use; I had no problem pushing loam around
    and spreading bark mulch.  However, the Bobcat was not a stump puller.
    Nor was it up to the task of "grading" a walk way, at least not
    where I wanted it.
    
    I ended up enjoying playing with the thing and rate it pretty good
    for general landscape work.  If you need a bit extra, call in a
    back hoe or small dozer, depending on the job.
    

    I rented one last summer and had a great time with it.  
    I paid $155 to rent it for a Sunday which meant I got to pick
    it up late saturday afternoon and return it monday morning.  
    
    It takes 2 hours to get used to running it.  After that you can
    move around fast and get a lot done quickly.  The bobcat can lift
    just about anything.  I used it to backfill a foundation and I 
    also built a retaining wall out of boulders.  
    
    You have to be real careful with 2 things.  First, don't lift anything
    too heavy too high.  It'll tip foreward.  Second, don't go uphill
    without some weight in the bucket.  It will tip backwards.  
    
    

    $125 doesn't sound bad...I've heard ~$150 in the Newburyport Ma.
    area. Personally, I've never operated one myself but alot of friends
    of mine have and they say it's a great toy for doing jobs 'for which
    its intended' although the general consensus is that it usually
    takes 1/2 the time thats it's rented for inorder to learn how to
    operate it efficiently.
    
    MArk
    

    My neighbor and I split costs on one last fall to re-do out "lawns",
    and I use that term loosely. After rototilling the whole thing,
    we used the shovel-equipted bobcat to scrape off the old sod (weeds),
    and then to spread new loam.
    I second the recommendation on not carrying anything too heavy,
    too high. My neighbor was moving some heavy boulders about 200 yards
    and started building up a bit too much speed, he hit a slight
    dip and the rebound of that sent the boulder off the shovel and
    sent him bouncing inside the cab. No damage, except my sides from
    laughing so much!
    
    Ours was 110-120 per day (I forget) with 20 bucks to pick up and
    deliver (recommended). With pick up and delivery, you get that
    extra time to work when you would have to be loading it up and
    moving back to the store. We went thru Taylor Rental in Manchester
    NH. I have some more work to do this fall, I'll probably rent
    one again. 
    
    John
    
    

    We had a foundation put in last fall, November, after backfilling
    around the foundation the contractor just took all the excess fill
    and pushed it across on half of our back yard.  At the present we
    have about a two - two and one half difference in the level of each
    side of the back yard.  We've gotten quotes from $2740 to $4000
    to re-grade the back yard, bring in loam and seed.  My husband now
    thinks that the way to go is to rent a bobcat and do the work himself.
    (Of course I have been drafted to help)  My fear is that we will
    not be renting the right piece of equipment to do the job.  Can
    a Bobcat move the fill that has now been sitting for 6+ months and
    has been firmly packed by snow and rain?  The fill is rocky, not
    boulders - 1-1/2 to 2 feet in diameter would be the biggest rock
    that we expect to find given what we have encountered so far - we
    have been sifting some of the fill for other purposes.  There is
    no question that we can use the fill, our lot slopes quite a bit
    in the back and we can use it to make the yard more level.  Mike
    plans to rent the Bobcat with the bucket, the backhoe (we need a
    trench for a drainage pipe, and the wire rake like attachment.
    
    Can the Bobcat handle this type of a project?  If not who do I call
    just to get a bulldozer/backhoe or whatever to come in just to grade,
    or move the fill around?  
    
    Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
    Kathy

    I rented a bobcat to move fill that sounds about the same as what
    you have.  It was full of boulders and sat around for a winter.
    It worked out well.  It took about 10 hours for me to do it.
    A professional with a big machine probably could have done it in
    1 hour.
    It was worth the money for me to do it myself.
    Spreading the loam will be very easy.  I will be doing the same thing
    in the fall.

    Kathy, the Bobcat is not really the right piece of equipment for the
    job you have to do, true it can move piles of dirt, but a buldozer is
    better suit for what you want to do. The Bobcat is not a very big
    machine and I question wether it can move the PACKED dirt and rocks
    very efficiently. 

    The price that you quoted sounds VERY high. How large is the area you
    want to landscape? I recently had my front, side and part of the back
    yard (about 8,000 - 10,000 sq ft) re-landscaped for $1400. This took
    about 4 days using a backhoe, buldozer and dump truck and included
    digging and filling some drainage ditches, removing about 20 loads (10
    yards each) of excess fill, bringing 2 loads (16 yards each) of
    topsoil, bringing in a load (16 yards) of gravel, re-grading and
    spreading the top soil around. 
    
    I then rented a "kubota" (sp?) 4 wheel drive landscaping tractor with
    the york rake on the back for $140  for a day and did the finally
    raking and grooming with this. 
    
    The bottom line is while the orginal estimate sounds HIGH, I dout
    that a Bobcat for a day or a weekend could do the same job. Get
    some more estimates.

    Charly

    
    I just rented a bobcat this past weekend for a major job of
    relandscaping the front yard. I had a total of 40 yards of fill and
    topsoil to move. The bobcat handled it without any problems. Yes
    I will agree it isn't very big. But I'm sure it can handle the job
    you're talking about. The one I rented weighed over 2 tons. What
    should have taken me 3 days without the bobcat took me only 4 hours.
    All I used the bobcat for was to put the dirt in place and smooth
    it down as well as it could. Then I raked it smooth the rest of
    the way. 

    The price estimate sounds high to me too.  I don't know where you
    are, but Steve Perry in Harvard might be a good person to try, if
    you want to shop around some more.  Also Nat Hawkins, Jr. in Lancaster.
    I've had Steve Perry do some work for me; he's GOOD.  (Since I had
    the work done his prices may have gone up, too!)  I've never had
    Nat Hawkins do any work for me, but I've heard that he's reasonable.

We've just gone through the hiring of a backhoe+ operator.  We used Nat 
Hawkins, he charged us $45 (might have been $50) per hour, plus a delivery 
charge of $100.  We were a fair piece from Lancaster (Clinton), and I think he 
charges a straight hourly charge for local work with a minimum of 4 hours. 
His son Donnie did our job (perk test), and did a nice job.  Showed up on
time, everything went as planned.  So, a backhoe+operator would cost you a
minimum of $200, and will cost $400 per day.  You can rent a Bobcat for $150 
per day, and I'm SURE it can do the job you want to do.  If you husband has 
the itch to drive his own machinery (I do, i assume that EVERYONE secretly 
would love to), then the Bobcat is probably a good solution.  If you simply 
want to move the dirt with a minimum of effort at a reasonable cost then 
hiring a backhoe+operator for a day isn't all that expensive.


			Andy Ostrom

P.S.  We also hired a BIG Komatsu excavator with operator (moved a rock 
6'x3'x8' no sweat) for $100/hr plus delivery, so your estimate sounds like
either you're being taken or there's alot more there than you're describing.

    re: -1
    
    Where did you hire the "BIG Komatsu excavator with operator?"

The guy's name is Joe Pittorino, and his company is "New England Excavating."  
He's been amazingly responsive, and seems to be very good at what he does.  He 
has an assortment of machinery (I think), and has serveral operators that work 
for him, but he came and did ours himself.  I plan to get him to do the site 
work for the house we're building.  He's in Acton, and his number is 263-3180. 

The usual disclaimers apply.


			Andy Ostrom

  Re: .77
    >>  I then rented a "kubota" (sp?) 4 wheel drive landscaping tractor
    >>  with the york rake on the back for $140 for a day and did the final
    >>  raking and grooming with this. 
    
    From where did you rent it?
    
    BTW, we were also estimated $10 000, also $5 000 and $3 000 for
    grading, reseeding, putting crushed rock around the house.  The
    $3 000 crew came two months late and made a hash of it.  We sent
    them away after one day.  We are doing it ourselves.  If you want
    a job done properly ...
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    Does anybody have any current rental rates on Bobcat-type tractors?
    We need a small one for one day this Fall to assist with landscaping,
    and have been quoted everything from $150-$250/day.  Also, can they
    be moved with a small pick-up? Or do we need them to deliver it?
    (Added $, I assume, for delivery)    
    
    Sarah
    

Worcester County Rentals will deliver/pick up for you. I think they were $240
last I checked but I checked several places so it could be someone else's price.

	Not knowing your location it's difficult to call pricing.
	However, the quotes you received sound like the different
	sizes of machines.  Bobcat makes several different sizes
	3 of which are either gas or diesel fueled machines and
	different capabilities.  
		small model #642 (gas)----
			    #643 (fuel)    \  usually available
		meduim      #742 (gas)     /    thru rentals
			    #743 (fuel)---

		large	    #842 (gas)  usually commercial machines
			    #843 (fuel)   "	   "	      "
	For a single day or weekend use the gas, though louder and more 
	expensive to operate about 4x in fuel consumption, is probably fine.  
	If your doing finish landscaping, look for a machine with "floatation
	tires" they'll be a bit easier on any existing finish grade, lawns etc.
	Some words of caution:  
		Always wear the seat belt.  
		Keep spectators out of the area, especially children
			there is limited visibility.
		Operate at low engine RPMs until you feel very comfortable
			with all the controls.
		When climbing or descending grades, keep the heavy end on
		the upslope.  In otherwords, when going up a hill, 
			(empty bucket) go up backwards
			(full bucket) go up frontwards
			this will avoid rollovers under normal operating
			conditions and reasonable grades.
		Keep it off any septic or other underground sensative areas
		this machine exerts a lot of PSI and can break sub-surface
		pipes and/or disturb preset grades of a leaching area.
	They are working machines with an abundance of power, it's sometimes
	difficult to remember that it isn't an adults toy because it is fun
	to operate. 

Enjoy
Frank who_owns_one_because_I_have_months_of_work_to_be_done!!

Almost forgot, let them deliver unless it's a full size pickup properly
equiped to tow 7-10K trailers.

    
    I rented one last year (I live in Goffstown NH, right outside
    Manchester). It cost me $150 a day delivered and picked up. They
    dropped it off at 17:00 on Friday and picked it up at 17:00 on
    Saturday. Definetly have them deliver it. Even the small one weighs
    5 tons.
    
    Mike

    THanks for all your help.  I am in Central Mass, and it is for rather
    light work, though oer a large area.  Thanks for all the tips, etc.
    
    Sarah
    

    After reading all these replies and considering the alternatives I
    rented an 843 machine from New England Rentals in Manchester, NH this
    past week.  Charge was $150 delivered (Merrimack) which included 24
    hours from drop-off to pick-up and 10 hours of actual machine usage. 
    Other places I checked were more expensive, for the smaller machine,
    and allowed only 8 hours of machine usage.  'Overtime' charge
    was$20/hour.
    
    I rented it during the holiday so actually got 48 hours of clock time
    between drop-off and pick-up.  The extra time was helpful in that I was
    able to spread the machine time over two days rather than one, giving
    me a better chance of avoiding weather problems and the ability to use
    the maching more if necessary.  As usual, I underestimated the work and
    ended up going over by 3 hours.
    
    I offer the following observations, some of which were mentioned in
    earlier notes but are worth repeating:
    
    1 - use the seatbelt.  The machines can really bounce and the belt
    saved me from bumping my head on the roof of the cab many times.  Also,
    the units really tip and I came very close to going over several times
    - if that happens you definitely want to be held in the cage.
    
    2 - the machines can be pretty unstable, especially as you get use to
    the controls.  The recommendations about keeping the load uphill are
    extremely important.  I'll add the recommendation that you also be
    carefull about reversing direction abruptly.  The 'first' time I nearly
    dumped it I was moving backwards at a quick pace and simply moved the
    controls to neutral, which actually stops the movement.  The machine
    responded by rearing up and the only reason I didn't tip over was the
    machine's movement also caused me to pull back on the drive levers and
    move backwards again, thus forcing the bucket (which was above me at
    this point), back down.  I really worked at accelerating and
    decelerating gradually after that experience.
    
    3 - the bucket is fine for moving dirt but not very good at excavating. 
    In retrospect, it was probably not the right machine for my
    application.  The soil is extremly 'boney', traditional New England
    rock-soil with endless numbers of one to two foot round rocks.  I also
    exposed (could not move), three boulders about 5' x 3', which I'll have
    to have someone with a backhoe move for me.  The bucket does not have a
    lot a 'digging' power because the blade is so long and so I ended up
    continuously 'scraping' the land to loosen the soil and then move
    buckets of rocks and soil.  On some of the rocks I had to try and
    approach at an angle and dig in only a corner of the bucket to loosen
    the rock and then lift it.   I'm sure a backhoe could have much easier
    loosened the soil with the bucket and then moved the loosened soil with
    the front bucket.
    
    4 - It was fun.  Although I read the earlier references to it NOT being
    a toy, I'll confess that one of the reasons I did rent it was to play. 
    I now have a better apprecation for it's power and applicability.  Also
    for it's mobility and temperment.  It sure beat sitting at a desk for
    two days...  
    
    _Stan

I am going to have to lay some water and electrical piping when the weather gets
better (read probably summer).  My question is what to use to dig the trench?

I know that I can rent a machine to lay the electrical wire.  But that machine
only digs a 10 inch deep trench, if I am not mistaken.  The water will need a
trench at least 3-4 feet deep so that it won't freeze in the winter.  I don't
relish the idea of digging this by hand.  I will, if I have to, though.

I don't want to spend a large amount of money, if I can avoid it.

I assume I am going to have to either put a hold in the basement 4 feet down to
run the water in and hook it up, or use heat tape for the exposed section to the
faucet.

Also, I live in Mass.  What depth do I need to bury the water so that it won't
freeze?  I thought I would have to go to about 4 feet.  Does that sound right?
Can I run the electrical wire (rated for underground use) in the same trench?

Ed..

    How long of a trench are we talking here???  your looking at 4' to kep
    the lines from freezing, i'd say the cheapest way out is to rent a mini
    excavator... they do a great job... and you can rent em for under $300
    for the weekend.  for this area and the depth your talking it's the
    only way to go!
    
    Fra
    
    Ps, what'd you do about your insulation in the attic???
    

    I've rented a DitchWitch in the past -- you might call a local Taylor
    Rental (or whatever) to find out if it will meet your needs.

I am looking at about 150 feet to dig the trench.

I decided to check into the cost of getting the ridge vent installed.  Then I
will be able to insulate the way I want.

Thanks,

Ed

I've rented a little backhoe for a day - it was $175 a day at Hudson Rental in 
Hudson, NH about 2 years ago.  It's easy to learn how to use, and FUN.  It has
a little bulldozer blade, I think you'd be able to dig the trench, lay the stuff
in it (yes, you can put water and wire in the same trench), and backfill it in
one day.

I think that for buried electrical service you're supposed to get some special
tape that says something like "Warning - electrical service buried below" and
bury it about a foot down.  When you dig the trench, put the topsoil on one side
and the subsoil on the other.  Then you can backfill the subsoil, lay down the
tape, and backfill the topsoil.

Paul

        Since you need to stay below frost, I would go with one of
    the 'mini-excavators'.  This assumes that the terrain is
    reasonably flat.  I have been told that the little machines
    are not super stable on hills.

        There are freeze proof 'hydrants' available.  The valve
    is below frost.  The riser to the hose connection drains
    when the valve is closed.  Sort a mini version of a fire
    hydrant.

        At 150 ft. I would think about running the water line, a
    PVC conduit for power, and second conduit for phone,
    intercom, etc.  You will likely need to go up a wire size or
    two due to the length of run ie #10s for a 20 amp circuit.
    This will keep the voltage drop within limits.  That second
    conduit may be real handie later on.  Be sure to size the
    conduits adequately.  Err on the high side if there is a
    question.  The added cost is minimal and the pain of pulling
    at the max. conductor fill is great.  Oversized conduit and a
    little wire lube makes life much easier.

        Give consideration to extra conductors for control of
    lights, etc.

        I would also think about brining the conduit runs up into
    pull boxes about half way along.  This will make pulling much
    easier and help locate a fault should one occur later.  The
    code allows the pull boxes to be at or slightly below grade.
    I don't recall the exact wording.  The conduits need to come
    straight up into the boxes.

        I have not yet seen what is at the far end of the run.
    Can you fill us in?  A large electrical load or water demand
    will change the 'rules' a bit.


    Peter Duke

There will be some form of barn at the other end.  I don't anticipate there to be
an extremely heavy load.  There will be the normal lights, with an outside
flood light.  There will be outlets to run electrical appliances.  I don't have
immediate plans to put in heating, but later we may decide to install a point-
of-service electric hot water heater.  Who knows?

I was thinking of running 1/2 inch pvc pipe for the water, and another for the
electric.  The suggestion of putting a third pipe is a good one.  Also, would
I still need to use underground cable, even if it is in conduit?

I like the idea of the little backhoe.  I really wasn't looking forward to
hand digging that run.  Is it normally delivered?  Or did you pick it up on a
trailer?

Ed..

        Since there is the possibility of hot water, even the
    point-of-service type, look closely at the power
    requirements.  My guess is those are fairly high wattage,
    several hundred at least.  I would certainly consider 30 amp,
    240 volts out there.  Sounds like a lot I know, but you may
    be glad of it later.

        I don't recall what type plastic it is, but there is a
    black flexible tubing.  Very inexpensive.  I would go at
    least 3/4 perhaps 1 inch due to the long run.  If you are on
    well or otherwise have low water pressure 1/2 inch isn't
    going to give you much at the other end.  I bought some at
    Builder's Square last year for water lines in the back yard.

        PVC conduit does not require underground (type UF) wire.
    Single conductors, THHN, THWN, whatever you can get easily at
    a good price.  Builder's Square may have the best price on
    PVC conduit around.  The pipe isn't bad, it is all the darn
    fittings that add up.

        I would expect the backhoe would be delivered and include
    a short lesson.  I rented a larger hoe  (John Deere 310C) for
    a week to dig stumps.  Took and hour or two to really get the
    hang of it.  You may want to practice in a spot where you
    can't hit anything until you get used to it.  I've been told
    that the trick is to think of the hoe as an extension of your
    hands.  Sort of like touch typing, watch the hoe, not your
    hands.


ps      Was there a similar discussion back many notes?


    Peter Duke

      If  you  may  have  hot water, area lighting, and also want to run
      some power tools I would  recommend  that  you  put  in  wire  and
      conduit  heavy  enough  to handle 50A 240V.  The extra dollars you
      spend for heavier wire and larger conduit will  not  be  all  that
      much  and  the  SAVING compared to having to upgrade later will be
      well worth it!
      
      On the other hand, if you later find youself limited to a 30A 120V
      circuit, you'll likely end up being pretty angry with yourself.

        Okay, I'll go along with the 50amps. with the barn.  The
    cost will probably be about equal by switching to aluninum
    wire.  The pipe is going to be inch or more.  Aluminum,
    50amps at that distance means #4AWG the way I read the
    tables.  I don't know the temperature rating of the PVC
    conduit.  That will be a factor.  My old NEC says 4 #4s (THHN
    or XHHW) is the limit in one inch.  This is going to be a
    tough pull especially if there are no intermediate pull box.

        All in all a fun project.  Like the previous I tend to
    over design.  No regrets yet.


    Pete

If your going to dig the trench to the barn consider running a couple of
lines for telephone and intercom and just for the fun of it coaxal 
cable.  It doesn't mean you have to use it but it beats digging the trench
again.

Robin

    On a similar note about digging, I own a home that has no driveway so
    in the winter when you can't park on the street, people are forced to
    park next to the house on the yard.  What I would like to do is make a
    double width driveway.  From street level, the side yard slopes up
    about 2.5 to 3 feet, so I would have a good amound of material to
    remove to make the drive level with the street.  I was planning to
    rent a bobcat to cut out and remove the earth, then surround the area
    with timbers and lay down gravel for the drive.  Is the bobcat a good
    choice or is one of the other machines mentioned in this note probably
    better for this sort of thing.  A bobcat is basically a small bucket
    loader with 4 wheel drive.  Thanks for the help.
    
    Jack

    
    The bobcat will work fine. In fact, just this morning on the way to
    work, this house around the corner from me was having a new driveway
    put in, and the guy was using a bobcat to dig up the dirt.
    
    Mike

Presenting the dissenting view...

The Bobcat's strength is NOT digging up existing soil, it is moving already dug
dirt.  Because the Bobcat is going to be lifting a heavy load in the front, it
is weighted heavily in the back.  This means that there isn't much weight on the
bucket in the front when it's not loaded, which means that it doesn't dig into
a level surface very well.  It won't dig going up a slope at all.

I've used a bobcat several times when backfilling and spreading topsoil, and it
works great at those jobs.  But one of those times I had to scrape off some of
the hardpack of our driveway, and it was just barely up to it.  I was lucky on a
20 foot run DOWN the slight slope of our driveway, with the front wheels off the
ground and all the weight on the bucket, to scrape up a half-bucket full.

Once you can get down below the surface so that you can use the power of the
wheels pushing forward instead of gravity on the bucket to dig with, it works
great.

If the soil is not too hard packed and not too rocky, then the bobcat will 
probably work faster once you get going.  It will take a while at first to dig 
down into the level soil, but once you establish a lower level you should be 
able to cut into the existing soil pretty well.

On the other hand, the backhoe will dig through anything - hardpacked, rocky, 
whatever.  And it's not as much slower than the bobcat as you'd think.  The 
bobcat bucket is about 4 times larger, but you have to back up, drive to the 
side, dump, and back down into the driveway on each bucketfull.  With the 
backhoe, all you do is turn the turret.

I think I'd use the backhoe.  It may be a little slower if the going is easy.
But if the soil is hardpacked/rocky, the bobcat may not be able to cut it.

Paul

    
    I'm going to have to disagree with Paul (what else is new) 8*) 8*)
    
    If you put the bucket down, and actually lift the front wheels off the
    ground about 5 - 10 inches, the Bobcat will easily dig up the dirt.
    There are 2 flavors of the Bobcat. Get the bigger one. The big one
    weighs about 4 tons. I've done exactly what your doing, and never had a
    problem.
    
    Mike

    This soil seems very soft right now.  It was always previouly a grassy
    lawn area and over this past winter with the cars driving over it, it
    is soft, muddy ruts so it doesn't appear to be hard-packed.  So, I take
    it that since the ground is pretty soft, the bobcat should do the job,
    right?  I'm leaning toward the bobcat because I'll be able to scoop up
    the material, bring each bucket to the back of the house and dump down
    an embankment all at the same time...  Anyone ever rent a bobcat?  I
    was wondering about cost per day or weekend...  Thanks for the replies.
    
    Jack

    Do you really want a road level drive that is recessed in your yard
    with a walls? Can't tell what your exact situation is however,
    recessed areas have the following problems you may want to consider
    before you dig.
    
    o People (kids) fall off of walls.
    o Walls can be expensive and hardwork to build correctly.
    o Steps or ramps will be required.  
    o Leaves, snow, grass and other wind blown trash will collect in them.
    o Plowing/shoveling/blowing snow may become a none trivial task. 
      (ever lift a shovel full of wet snow above your head, 3ft wall 3ft snow
       bank)
    o Will your digging expose utility services or place water lines above
      the frost line for your area.
    o There will be a lot of dirt to get rid off.
    
     Make sure your path to where you will be dumping your dirt is 
     fairly level, firm and does not have things like drain pipes or
     septic systems under it.
    
    If you can drive up the grade now you might want to only skim a foot or
    so off to reduce the grade from the road. Then taper your yard into the
    drive and not use walls. A grade up from the road will also prevent
    water from running from the road into your drive.
    
    
    Don

If the ground is soft, then Mike is right (Hey Mike, quick, while we agree, lets
re-open 3565!)  I was trying to dig up the star-pack stuff they use for driveway
base that had been packed down hard for a couple of years.  And if you want to
bring the dirt around back, then DEFINITELY get the bobcat.  The backhoe moves
like molasses.

Paul

>>If the ground is soft, then Mike is right (Hey Mike, quick, while we agree, lets
>>re-open 3565!)  
    
    Only if YOU agree with ME. 8*) 8*) 8*)
    
    
    As to the price of the Bobcat: $120 - $170 a day (depending on where
    you can rent it from). Call around and get the best price. Everyplace
    I've rented one from has free delivery. It better, because I don't know
    too many vehicles that can tow 4 tons.
    
    Mike

    RE .16
    
    WHOA.... I appreciate the information and list of considerations but
    lets not make this little project into a BIG one.  I have 2 to 3 feet
    of material to remove, in a 10 x 20 area; I'm not digging out a 
    foundation for a house!  The wall will only be a couple of feet high.
    I plan to include steps, and put a railing on the high spots so as to
    keep kids from falling which was a worthwhile consideration on your 
    part.  I'm just trying to come up with a reasonable solution for my
    tenants and this seems like a cost-effective way to solve the problem
    and, at the same time, increase the value of my property.  I will check
    for pipes underground and check with my neighbor as well.  
    
    BTW, is this something that the town needs to be notified of, even if
    NO pipes, wiring, whatnot are involved.  I swear the purpose of a 
    building permit is to notify the town to raise your property taxes
    because you've tried to be a nice guy and give the people a place to
    park.  Should I get a permit or what I'm really asking is, can I say
    to he** with it, lets make a driveway in one day's time, who's going 
    to know the difference, much less care?
    
    
    			Jack

    If it wer'nt for the fact that you have to drive around back to dump
    the stuff I would still opt for the excavator, although they are slow
    (relatively speaking), there is nothing you can't do with the excavator
    that you can do with the bobcat, and a few things more that you can.
    
    They can grade, and actually do some light bulldozing with the blade. 
    I don't want to sell the thing short by saying "light" bulldozing, it
    will out perform the bobcat by a long shot when it comes to dozing and
    grading...  the boom is just frosting on the cake. These little babies
    can unstick themselves almost anytime, try that with a bobcat!  You did
    say it was muddy, just how muddy will determine what kind of
    performance you'll get with the bobcat.  I've used them both, several
    times, they each do a specific job well, however in my mind the
    mini-excavator is the better machine.  If you moving large quantities
    of fill then the bobcat shines.
    
    Fra

You may need a driveway permit, as opposed to a building permit.  The
primary concern is to be sure that you're complying with zoning regulations,
and that your driveway isn't in a dangerous spot.  It's not unusual to
prohibit driveways that are too close to intersections.  Get the permit shouldn't
be a hassle in most cases.

It's unlikely that adding a driveway is going to change your assessment by
very much.  

   Gary

    Would those of you who have used bobcats recommend renting one to dig
    drainage trenches (about 2 feet deep)? We'd like to put in about 250
    feet of trenches and fill them with stone and perforated pipe. This is
    to alleviate the effects of a VERY wet yard.
    
    

      Yes, 10 times over, yes. My brothers and I did the very same
    thing 5 months ago in Lunenburg. My younger brother has a very
    wet yard which is causing problems with his leaching field.
      We dug trenches, laid perf pipe, and back filled with stone.
    Approx. 250 feet of trench. 
      Rented the Bobcat for the day. What a gas that thing was!
    We got the backhoe and bucket attachments. We would still be
    digging today if we tried it by shovels.
      I think it cost around $250 for the day and was worth every
    penny.  We dug 250 ft of trench 4-5ft. deep and backfilled
    with 10 yds. stone.
      Bob 

    Depends on what you're digging.  You might consider a mini
    excavator with steel treads.  DoAll Rental in Milford NH has
    two sizes.  In addition to a bucket for trenching, they have
    a little dozer blade that's extremely useful for backfilling
    the trench.
    

What is the smallest machine -- length, width, turning ratio -- that can move
dirt and dig a trench?

Tom --

A shovel is less than a foot wide, a few feet long, and has a very small
turning radius.

I almost mentioned my extensive experience operating an earth wrench.  

>      Rented the Bobcat for the day. What a gas that thing was!
>    We got the backhoe and bucket attachments. We would still be
>    digging today if we tried it by shovels.
      
      And  if  you'd  saved  some  money  by  NOT  getting  the  backhoe
      attachement you'd still be digging too!  With only the  "standard"
      front  end  loader  bucket  a  Bobcat  isn't worth didly-squat for
      digging.  Moves dirt from loose piles and  spreads  it  o.k.,  but
      doesn't dig ditches.
      
      ...on second thought, maybe it is worht didly-squat!  :-)

>>      digging.  Moves dirt from loose piles and  spreads  it  o.k.,  but
>>      doesn't dig ditches.

Sure it does.  I didn't think so either until I saw it done.  If you come at 
the ditch sideways with the bucket perpendicular you can get the job done.  I 
saw  someone who knew what he was doing dig a 24" deep ditch 300' long in 
about 1 hour.  This ditch was for an underground electrical service.

bjm

    
    What you want to do is put the bucket down and tilt it down so that it
    raises the front wheels off the ground. Then just by using the back
    wheels go forward. You'd be amazed at how good it'll dig.
    
    Mike

re .30:  Maybe that will work in soft soil.  In my stony compacted soil, 
I was amazed at how willing it was to tip over backwards -- the engine 
is mounted toward the back to counterbalance a full bucket.  Just driving 
the thing it feels like it's going to flip over one way or the other.  
In fact, I very nearly did manage to flip the machine, when some soil
abruptly gave way beneath one of the front wheels.  I was on a slope at
the time, but I caught the machine on its bucket.  I wouldn't have gotten
hurt -- it's got restraints like one of those corkscrew roller coasters --
but it wasn't quite so much fun after that.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

>    What you want to do is put the bucket down and tilt it down so that it
>    raises the front wheels off the ground. Then just by using the back
>    wheels go forward. You'd be amazed at how good it'll dig.
    
      Is  there  ground  anywhere in New England that is soft enough for
      this technique to work?  (Maybe on the sand at Hampton Beach?)

      I  have found the technique totally unworkable.  Either the wheels
      spun and the machine didn't move, or the engine  stalled,  or  the
      blade  just  scratched  the ground without digging in.  Obviously,
      your results were different.

      In  any case, I stand by my recommendation that the extra cost for
      the back hoe is worth it, even if you're operator has skills  that
      I lack and the ground is soft.

    Our local landscpaing contracter uses his Bobcat rather than his truck,
    if there has been winter ice rather than snow. His plughing runs are
    done with back wheels and blade. The front wheels are about 1 ft up in
    the air...
    
    q
    
    

    
    We'll I've dug ditches with the proceedure I mentioned. Obviously it
    depends on what the ground is like. I'm sure I couldn't do in the house
    I own now....Too much ledge. But don't say it can't work. It has.. You
    just need the right conditions.
    
    Mike

    
      Rent a DitchWitch they work great. I've used them extensively on
     a golf course for laying drainage pipe and water pipes. It's by
     far the fastest method to dig narrow trenches. Theres a dealer
     on rte 20 in Shrewsbury.
    
    BAL

    How much does one pay to rent a DitchWitch for a day or half day?
    
    
    Paul

Describe a DitchWitch.  Does it just dig trenches or is it a generalized 
small earth over?

It sounds like it could be what I invented in answer to my own question above.  
My invention was the bulldozer with a handle, a bulldozer too small to sit on, 
operated by hand controls, which could dig in, scrape, move earth, but is about 
the size of a snowblower.  If sandbox size bulldozers work in sandboxes, I see 
no reason why something slightly larger wouldn't work.

    
     A DitchWitch is like a power hoe or spade. It has several depending
    on the size of the DitchWitch. They sort of rotate on a bar like a
    big chainsaw. As the blades(spades,hoes) come back toward the surface
    they tip and release there load outside the newly dug trench. Its
    amazing how fast you can trench with one. The golf course bought one
    for about 5k. You'll have to call places for rental prices.
    
     BAL

    How deep a trench can it dig? I wonder if it's a better choice than a
    Bobcat for my upcoming need.

I was at hudson rental and noticed the ditchwitch in the parking lot. 
The guy said it digs a 24" by ~4" ditch and cost $75.00 for 4 hours.  

A 4" trench might be a bit narrow for drainage - maybe 2 trenches side by 
side?

-tom

I don't think you'd manage to dig two trenches next to each other.  The
machine would keep slipping into the first trench.  If you wanted to use
one of these for a wide trench, I suppose you might dig two parallel
trenches (I'm not sure how far apart they have to be), then use a shovel
& boots to break down the wall between them, resulting in a wider and
shallower trench.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I don't remember seeing an answer to how deep this machine will go.
Wouldn't the water pipe have to be at least 4 feet deep to avoid
the frost line?  Can this machine go that deep?  Or is the Bobcat
with the backhoe the best way to go?

Ed..

    RE-.1
    I paid $40 for 3 hours(minimum time) just last saturday even using it
    for just an hour it was worth the expense verses the effort of diging
    decayed granite by hand.
    
    -j

    Go with the backhoe attachment.  You dont need to drive a
    truck into the hole.  It will make less of a mess...
    
    JD
    

    I need to lay some outdoor wiring for a light. I'd like to rent a 
    DitchWitch to dig the hole. Has anybody had any experience with this
    thing?  How long would it take to dig 100'?  Are they rugged enough
    to dig through 3-4 of hardpacked gravel?  
    
    Also, any problems with running the wire 2' under the driveway. The
    driveway is not paved at the moment and I'd rather not dig up the 
    lawn with one of those beasts...
    
    Thanks,
    Gary
    

I thought the ditch diggers only went down maybe 8-10 inches.  How did you plan
on getting the rest of the 2 feet deep?

I wanted to run water, which would have to go 4 feet deep, but could not find 
a solution that did not have us renting a backhoe, which we are not in a 
position to do at this time.

Ed..

    
    
    .....I THINK IF YOU CALL THE CORRECT PEOPLE.  YOU SHOULD
    BE ABLE TO RENT ANYTHING...  TRY LOGAN EQUIPMENT ON RT20
    IN SHREWSBURY FOR STARTERS....
    
    JD

The ditchwitch will have problems when you run into large rocks/stones.  I would
recommend, as a few other replies have, to rent either a backhoe or a bobcat
with a backhoe attachment.  You can dig a trench with a standard bobcat, it
means a lot more moving and a bigger trench.  You also need enough space on one
side or the other of the trench to move the bobcat.  

If you know there are no large obstructions within 2' of the surface maybe the
ditchwitch will work for you.

Brian J.

    I used a ditchwitch last week.  It's pretty impressive. It can
    move small (<6") rocks, but it works best in gravel. It can
    go down 4 feet.  I only wanted 15 inches, and it did 220 feet
    for me in less than an hour and a half (including reading the
    instruction manual).
    	I rented mine at Sudbury Rental in Sudbury, Ma. It goes
    for about $130 for 3 hours, or $180 for all day.
    
    	Dick
    

    I went with the DitchWitch too this past weekend. The one that I had
    only went down two feet--enough for my purposes.  It dug about 300ft
    in less than an hour. This was very sandy soil. It was like cutting
    through butter... Definitely an monster of a power tool though...
    Once you got the hang of it, it's great...
    
    -Gary
    

re:-.1  last few

Since I have never seen one, what size trench can you dig with one of these.
You've both mentioned the depth that you needed/dug but what is the width of 
the trenches that you did?

curious,

-Jay

    Width is about 4-5" -- enough to lay pipe and wire.
    

    I've never seen one of these devices - how shallow a ditch can they
    dig?  I've been thinking of putting in some gravel walkways, but I
    haven't because the thought of digging out all that with hand tools
    is daunting. I rented a roto-tiller once (for another task) and found
    that I and it in combination were not up to tilling up grass.  
    
    How difficult to manuever and work with is a ditch witch compared to a
    large rear tine rototiller?
    
    Thanks,
    Margaret.

    I do not think you want a witch to dig a walkway. While the depth is
    adjsutable, it digs via a wheel with digging teeth set into it. Each
    tooth is the width of the resulting ditch. It would not lend itself to
    multiple shallow passes to dig the walkway.

re .30:

Try hand tools first.  It's probably not as bad as you think it is.
(I'm working on a patio, and that's what I found).

>>  it digs via a wheel with digging teeth set into it. 
    
    	There's probably different types but I was at Hammer Hardware when
    someone was renting one of these.  The business end looked kind of like a
    chainsaw blade with very oversize teeth for digging.  Looked like it
    could dig down a bout a foot ana half with the resulting trench only 
    about 4 - 6" in width.
    
    	George

	At the end of September I'm having a drainage ditch dug along my
driveway.  I got a quote from them to dig the ditch, put in perforated pipe and
fill it with stone.  I've gotten quotes on my own for the stone and pipe.  If I
have them dig the ditch and I do the pipe and stone I can save about $1000.  So,
I'm trying to figure out if it's worth it to do it myself.  My plan is to rent a
Bobcat to move the 1-1/2" stone and I figure I can do it in a day.  This is a
lot of stone.  The trench is going to be 18" X 18" X 450'.  Never having rented
a Bobcat before I'm not sure if this is an appropriate thing to do or if the one
day estimate is reasaonable.  Any ideas?

     I helped my brother do a job like that about 4 years ago. He had
    rented a Bobcat for the day and we dug the ditch and filled it with
    crushed stone. 
     It was about the same dimensions you are considering. The Bobcat was
    relatively easy to operate. Didn't take long to get the hang of it.
    In fact, I thought it was a blast.
     The machine came with a detachable backhoe which made the digging
    a piece of cake. I do remember thoguh that the crushed stone was
    difficult to scoop up(it's a very dense pile of material) with
    the bucket and it helped to have a couple of people with shovels
    to help load it.
     Overall, I wouldn't do a job like that without the Bobcat. 
    
    regards,
    Bob

	I only need to do the stone and pipe because the company that is digging
the trench is also excavating and paving the driveway.  They are digging the
trench at no additional charge.

George

    RE: .45
    
    Haven't just rented a Bobcat to do some excavation work myself, I would
    recommend against it if it's anywhere near a hill.. Bobcats have an
    extremely short wheelbase, making them very tipsy. It is easy to roll
    those things, believe me.  ALso I'm not quite sure how you can dig an
    18" wide trench with a 36" wide bucket...  
    
    What you need is the backhoe rental. Hudson rental has one which has
    a backhoe on the back.. 
    
    -G

    Hudson Rental - is that the one by Veterans Bridge? We're in Wilton
    - I'm guessing the bobcat must come with trailer ... do they deliver
    it or will they let us pick it up?
    
    c
    

    Actually, it's Taylor Rental in Hudson.. They deliver for a charge but
    will let you pick it up provided you have a 2" ball on a heavy-duty 
    pickup truck type.