Conference 7.286::home_work

    		Today my house was sprayed for fleas and it stinks.
    I wanted to ask any of you out there that may know something about
    this if the smell and/or insecticide is harmful to people.  I have
    a couple of small children and the smell is pretty intense.  Please
    let me know.
    
    						Thanks,
    						Jorge'
    

Well, not knowing what kind of insecticide was used makes it difficult 
to tell much more...

We've had a problem with fleas each year (we've got two cats) and I've 
had *EXCELLENT* results with Ortho Flea-Be-Gone that I've applied 
myself. It comes in a gallon jug with a sprayer attachment.

It has a mild odor that lasts for a couple of days, but is not as 
offensive as you describe. It doesn't seem to bother any of the family 
members (two-legged or four-legged)...we 'evacuate' the area for about 4 
hours after application...

Our place is only 1200 sq. ft. so less than a gallon treats the entire 
house...

    I once used a "fogger" in my house--the kind you buy in pet stores.
    It worked great--but for at least a year afterword, not one fly
    (or any insect for that matter) entered my house and lived to tell
    about it.  
    
    If it did that to insects, what was it doing to me?
    
    Recently I was in a pet store and overheard a conversation about
    the "old" foggers they used to sell.  Someone was complaining that
    the new versions don't work at well.  The pet store owner was saying
    that the older version can't be sold anymore without a license.
    
    I'd find out what the exterminator used.  Then I'd research it very
    carefully before using it again.
    
    

    On the "old fogger"....a friend of mine is a caretaker on an estate
    and he showed me a "fogger" he used.  It was this can of liquid
    that really smelled bad and to use it you inverted a sparkler (like
    the ones on the 4th of July) in is upside down)...after reading
    the label on these I bet that is what they meant by "old
    fogger"...
    
    -Jay
    
    

    	I am the originator of this note and I now have the specifics.
    The insecticde they used was either Dursdan LO Precor or it was
    Safrotin Precor.  They said it is not harmful to people once dry
    and the odor should disappear once the rooms are aired after drying.
    We are still expieriencing some smell and my wife is feeling a bit
    ill.  We don't know if her feelings are related to the insecticide
    but we want to be sure.  Any info is appreciated.  Thanks!
    
    						Jorge'

    It sounds as though they gave you a trade name on what they 
    sprayed.  You should probably ask them for the ingredients that
    make up those products.  They also should be able to provide you
    
    with a Material Safety Data Sheet for the product that they 
    sprayed.  Look into the right To Know law (both the federal and
    state laws)  They discuss the details of providing informaiton 
    on chemicals that are used in the course of work.
    

    I see I'm probably too late for this reply, but last year we had
    our house exterminated for fleas.  I asked the exterminator how 
    long we should stay out of the house.  He said no more than a couple 
    of hours. I called our son's pediatrician and he said to find
    someplace  to sleep that night.  Don't go back until tomorrow.  
                  
    Even when we did go back we washed down everything you could imagine.
    
    
    					Steve

    re: .1
    
    Where can you get the gallon jug of Ortho Flea-Be-Gone?
    
    -joet

re: .-1

	I've been getting it at the local True_Value hardware store. 
I've also seen it at Montgomery Wards. It's about $12-$13 a gallon and 
is used 'as-is'...no mixing...
	The sprayer that comes with it will definitely strengthen your 
grip! By the end of the gallon, you'll be able to crush cue balls with 
that hand! If you've got a garden sprayer, use that...then wash it out 
afterwards...

Chris

    now that your wife is sensitised to it, she will problably have
    a bad alergic reaction next time.  the cheapest insect control for
    fleas and other pests I have found is a night light and a bowl of
    soapie water.  the pets will not drink it.  takes up to 3 weeks
    to get all the eggs after it hatches.  only chore to do is to empty
    the bowl every day or so.

    sorry, but i don't understand.... how does th night-light and bowl
    of water work?

    I believe that you sit in front of the night light all night.
    When you see a flea, clobber him with the bowl and wipe up the
    mess with the soapy water.
    
    ( sorry, I couldn't resist. )
    
    (My guess is that the light/warmth attracts the fleas, as does the
    water.  They fall in, don't fare well in the rather hostile chemical
    environment, and die.  Then again, mabye fleas dont jump well when
    coated with soap scum?)
    
    						matt
    

    the soap breaks the water tension and they drown.

    If you want to play it safe, stick to Pyrethrum based flea products.
    Pyrethrum is a very safe organic insecticide derived from chrysanthemum
    plants. It breaks down within 6 hour of use (its the only other
    insecticide I use in my garden besides BT). It is commonly used by
    veterinarians for killing fleas on dogs and cats. When used in this
    fashion it's usually alcohol based and comes in a sprayer. It can
    be purchased from any vet. Although it has the same ingredients,
    this is not the form to use in your house though because it usually
    is scented (I can't stand the scent...something like Lilacs). Pyrethrum
    itself is odorless, and comes in many forms for household spraying.
    Just check the ingredients on the can or bottle. You should do several
    weekly sprayings to make sure you kill all newly hatched baby fleas.
    But the best protection I've found is to spray my dog occasionally
    outside before entering during flea season to prevent them from
    entering the house at all. 
                    				/Glenn Tremblay
    

    THIS PAST JULY MY WIFE AND I GOT AN GOLDEN RETRIEVER THAT WAS NINE
    MONTHS OLD. THE PREVIOUS OWNER AS WELL AS MY WIFE ARE ALERGIC TO
    FLEAS. WHEN THEY GAVE US THE DOG THEY GAVE US THIS CHEMICAL THAT
    YOU APPLY BETWEEN THE DOGS SHOULDER BLADES CALLED "PRO SPOT" IT
    KILLS ALL THE FLEAS ON THE DOG AS WELL AS THE AREA WHICH HE ROAMS
    IN THE HOUSE. WE LET THE DOG STAY OUTSIDE DURING THE DAYS AND TO
    THIS DAY I HAVE NOT FOUND 1 FLEA ON THIS DOG (I CHECK HIM DAILY
    FOR FLEAS AND TICKS). AND MY WIFE HASN'T HAD ANY COMPLAINTS ABOUT
    FLEAS AT ALL. THE STUFF IS A LITTLE EXPENSIVE ($18.00) AND IS AVAILABLE
    THRU THE VET. BUT IT'S ALOT BETTER THAN THAT "BOMBING"
     OUT THE HOUSE. IT COME IN A PACKAGE OF 6 LITTLE VIALS AND LASTS
    ABOUT 2-3 WEEKS DEPENDING ON IF THE DOG GETS WET OR NOT. HOPE THIS
    HELPS.......TOM

  Our dog suffers from something called flea dermatitis -- even a single flea
  can cause many square inches of rash, plus hair loss when she bites herself
  to relieve the itch.  Pro-Spot stopped all symptoms and is very easy to
  apply (though you are supposed to wear gloves when you put it on).  And
  I've heard that there were lots of fleas around this year.

  JP

    Sounds good....BUT what are the active ingredients??
    
    					/Glenn
    

    
    PRO-SPOT contains Fenthion in a Glycol Ether base, quantities adjusted
    for the particular weight of your dog. The Ether is the vehicle
    whereby the poison gets into the dog's bloodstream.
    
    The package has all kinds of warnings about how to apply the stuff,
    and what to do if you get any on yourself (call the local poison
    control center!) If you use it, please be careful!
    
    By the way, if your cats are very friendly with your dog, keep them
    apart for a couple of hours after administering PRO-SPOT. This stuff
    is fatal to cats.
    
    Dick
                                         

re Note 1173.0 by ALIEN::PETROVIC:

> Dow Chemical has developed 'Dursban' and Ortho (Chevron Chemical) has
> 'Ortho-Chlor.' It was stated in another note ('Black Ants In Winter')
> that Dursban was safe to use in a dwelling. According to the
> manufacturer's label, it is not. In fact, its use should be confined to
> outdoor use only to control termites around foundations, ants of all
> types in your lawns and several lawn-attacking beasties. It specifically
> warns against annual use around your home. 

Sure about this?  I have used Dursban in both the Ortho and the K-mart house
brand packaging.  The extensive directions on them both describe indoor
applications.  Actually, you seem to be describing Diazinon, the labels of
which describe external (and lawn/garden) applications only.

(Of course, nether Ortho nor K-mart are the "manufacturers" of Dursban itself,
so you could be right.)

Bob

    I've got a large hedge (actually some spruce trees that were topped
    and trimmed) between my house and the neighbors.  They seem to provide
    a very good area for millions of insects, mosquitoes, wasps, bees,
    you name it, to live and breed in.  The insects and mosquitoes are
    annoying but the bees, wasps and yellow jackets have got to go because
    I'm allergic to them.  After another Sunday at the hospital, I've
    decided something drastic along the lines of insecticides must be used.
    Are there any insecticides that I can spray this hedge with that
    will get rid of these things?  Poking into the hedge to locate the
    nests is NOT an option!  Allergy treatments will also start soon...
    

If you want to kill BEES try a spray named SEVIN.  It's one of the SAFEST 
sprays, non-toxic to pets and humans, and is commonly used on fruit and 
veggies.  It just so happens, however, that bees are incredibly sensitive to 
the stuff.  As far as I can tell you can't kill mosquitos, except with a 
hammer!  :-)

    RE: .3
    
    SEVIN kills only bees??  Any pesticides out there kill bees, hornets,
    yellow jackets and wasps besides the spray stuff in the can?  I
    used that stuff last summer to kill nests of yellow jackets that
    were in holes in the lawn (last years hospital visit) and it killed
    the grass.  A year later and the grass still is dead.  Needless
    to say I don't want to spray that stuff on the hedge!

    re: .4
    
    I'm pretty sure that SEVIN does a number on most any large bug or
    insect.  It really became popular during the last gypsy moth
    rampage, as it was effective on the insects, and didn't do anything
    to your trees or foliage.  The bottle will list specifics, but I
    think it claims to be the best for japaneese beetles, and those
    suckers are hard to kill.  I'd imagine that bees, wasps, etc, would
    be just as vulnerable.
    
    andy
    

    re: .4
    
    Make sure that you follow the directions and use the proper
    concentration.  As an armchair botanist, I'd guess that you OD'ed your
    lawn with the stuff. 
    
    I, and my family use Sevin on our fruit trees every year with no ill
    effect on either us or the plants. 
    
    -joet

While we're on the subject...Back home in New York, the big
tree-spraying trucks were a commom local sight, several times a
year....looked into it for my new in-wooded-area house, and only found
one person in the Framingham/Sudbury area who did this sort of thing -
i.e., sprayed your trees at regular intervals (2x/yr) for defoilaging
(sp?) insects.  Have they decided this is now too deadly for humans,
or ?.??? 

    RE: .4
    
    The spray can stuff was Raid Wasp and Hornet Killer.  It's kills
    on contact and can be sprayed over 12 feet.  The stuff smells like
    gasoline.  I don't think I OD'd the grass but rather any "contact"
    killer will kill ANYTHING it contacts.  Grass included.  I think
    I need something that is non-contact in nature.  I'll check into
    SEVIN.  At this point I'll try anything short of nuclear weapons.
    
    Phil

Re: .-1

I think the petroleum carrier probably killed your grass.  The wasp 
killer itself is a nerve gas that evaporates very quickly.  I shot a 
June bug with the stuff once and it didn't seem to impress him, so it 
may be specific to certain classes of insect.  The nerve gas seems to 
deteriorate pretty fast too,  A can I bought at the end of last season 
which would drop a hornet on contact was only useful for drowning the 
nasty beasties this Spring, whereas a newly-purchased can did the old 
dead-before-they-hit-the-ground trick.
					>>>==>PStJTT

re: .1

After entering that note on Dursban and the Ortho equivalents, I 
discovered that a powered product can be used in the confines of a 
dwelling. It is a lower concentration than is the liquid that I have. 
So, it appears that for one to be sure, you HAVE to read the labels of 
ALL products containing a particular insecticide.

For example, our two cats have problems with fleas every summer (nothing 
new, right!) and after discussing the merits of various flea killers 
with the Vet, he suggested using Sevin powder. I never thought to use 
the stuff because it clearly states on the label to NOT use it directly 
on the animal.

I called him back and relayed that warning on the label and he said that 
it's there because of stupid people who overuse the chemical. When used 
carefully, it is no more harmful than the ineffective Sergeants or Hartz 
products. All I can say is he's been right so far. The cats are still 
alive and not bothered by fleas.

Chris

Actually, Bees are pretty hardy buggers, they just happen to be especially 
sensitive to whatever it is that's in SEVIN.  They have a warning on the label 
to avoid use if you're concerned about killing off bees (some people LIKE bees,
myself included).  Note that I say BEES.  I have no idea if the stuff will 
even touch a wasp or hornet -- that's why I asked if you were allergic to bees 
or to wasps...

			ao

    An allergic reaction would occur with either bee or wasps for someone
    sensitive to stings. The poison for either insect is very much alike.
    If you are truly that allergic you should invest in an "ANA kit"
    your doctor will prescribe one for you on request. I have carried
    and used them for several years.
    If you have a hive of bees in your hedge i suggest calling the local
    humane society they usally have a list of local bee keepers that
    will come take the hive. To get rid of the bees you have to get
    rid of the hive. Simply killing a field worker bee wont even come
    close to fixing the problem since there is probably a million back
    home. If you are worried about attracting more bees you should
    avoid flower/pollen producing plants in your landscaping.
    The victory garden landscape guide has a list of plantings that
    donot/do attract bees.
    
    One word on the shots I took them for three years for bee stings
    and after three years i was just as sensitive as the day i started
    taking them. You may read non-beliver in the usefulness of the shots.
    
    As a former beekeeper I very strongly belive that the bee can sense
    that you are scared and that somehow seems to attract them more.
    When confronted by a bee either ignore them or calmly walk away
    from the area. Fast motion will excite them and possibly draw
    an attack.
    For more info you may want to look in the bees notes file there
    may be a reader there willing to come down and remove the hive
    if indeed you have one on the hedge. Bees do not commonly open
    nest but prefer building their nest inside a cavity like a wall,hollow
    tree,ect.
    
    -jerry(former beekeeper due to allergy only)
    

    I too am allergic to bees and had two nearly fatal reactions
    in 69-70. I too like bees and only remove them from areas
    that I can't avoid. Actually, I am referring to bees, wasps
    and hornets, the difference in venom is minor.
    
    I didn't have any luck with the mashed bee extract they used
    to use to desensitize folks like me.  These days they use
    diluted real venom but I have not tried it.  I am an outdoors
    person and have been stung several times since the bad ones
    and have had complete success (I'm writing this!) with quickly
    administered medication.
    
    I have no fear of a bee I can see, if you don't provoke it
    it won't sting you.  If it wants to sample my sandwich I
    let it, don't panic and don't even leave.
    
    The best time to remove/kill/... bees is on a cool night.
    They are all home sleeping and very sluggish.  One way to
    get rid of a nest is to slip a plastic bag over it and tie
    it closed before cutting it free.
           
    
    Just a tidbit, 1 in 1000 folks are allergic, most of them
    don't know it. Few folks have a serious reaction on their
    first few stings.
    
    - gerry

    RE: .12, .13
    
    Don't get me wrong here, guys.  I love bees, hornets, wasps and
    yellow jackets ;-)!  It's they that don't like me.  And since they
    neither pay rent nor mow the lawn I'm gonna evict the suckers one
    way or another!!!  I know better than to provoke them since I already
    know what the result will bee (har,har).  It's that these damn things
    seem to nail me no matter what I do.  So far I've gotten it mowing
    the lawn (ground nest of yellow jackets) and clipping the hedges
    (unidentified assailants involved in latest attack, who WILL pay
    for it) and almost got it from another ground nest of bees be saw it
    first and sprayed them.
    
    Now, back to the real question.  Will spraying SEVIN kill wasps
    and yellow jackets (the ones in the hedge are small so I know they're
    not bees or hornets)?
    

	To bee or not to bee ?  ..... Is that the question ?

	A few years ago my brother & I decided to clear out a few dead trees
	from my Dad's back yard.   The trees were in a swampy area and were
	all pretty rotted out.  We started up the chain saw and went to work
	on this tree about at knee-height.  The tree fell over we both yelled
	"TIMBER" and shut the chain saw off ...... but it sounded like the
	chain saw was still on ...... the chain was'nt moving or anything
	but it SOUNDED like it was still running.  We coulded figure it out
	until I looked down and saw about 90 Zillion bees flyin' around being
	very PISS*D OFF !  The tree was hollowed out and we had just busted
	up the nest !  I dropped the saw and ran for dear life.  I got stung
	about 7 or 8 times.   We flipped a coin later to see who'ld have to
	go back to get the saw.  Guess who lost.


	Chuck    

    Yes seven,malathion,diazinon will all kill bees. Chloradane is very
    effective but as i understand the law makers in your part of the
    world deemed it unsafe. 
    NOTE: I dident even attempt to try spelling the chemicals names
    correctly but i'm sure you know what I mean..
    
    -j
    

    I have a rose bush at home and have some of the Ortho rose dusting
    powder. I find this stuff just great to get rid of nests in the
    ground.  
    
    It does say that it is toxic to bees, but I am not sure of the 
    ingredient. When it is poured into the hole in the ground some bees
    come out covered with the  white powder which makes them easy to see,
    and they do seem confused and dazed.
                                                                        
    Worker bees returning to the nest won't go in.  IN about 1 hour,
    no more nest.
    
    I always try to use what I have first, before going out and buying
    something new.

    Less one make light of this, I remember well a many year old (but less
    than 25) newspaper article concerning events that took place in a
    public housing project in Boston. It seems a baby was apparently left
    alone in a baby carriage (pram for you Brits) during the day. The baby
    was found dead. Post mortem showed in excess of 50 rat bites.

    Re: .1
    
    Maybe this really happened, but it is listed as an example of an
    "urban legend" in Jan Harold Brunvand's books on the subject.
    Just because it's in the newspaper doesn't mean it's true.
    
    However, rats are still nasty critters.
    
    				Steve

    I just spoke to the Boston Globe. Although the lady does not remember
    when the article was written -she thinks it was a "couple of years
    ago"- she does remember the article.
    She has given me some hints on how to trace the story further.

    More later
    
    				herb

>    So ... is there anything I can put in the crawl space to kill or
>    keep away rats, without harming the local neighborhood cats which 
>    may wander in?

You're talking about a crawl space under your house?  

You could try D-Con or something similar that is not inherently 
poisonous and is of no interest to cats.  Or you could put a rat trap in 
the bathroom if you think it's likely to come back there.  It's fairly 
rare to have just one rat in an area, so you probably have more than 
one to contend with.

Are you in a city or in the country?  In the country, rats in the house
probably mean they're nesting there or in a nearby outbuilding (like a
barn.)  In the city they could be coming from anywhere, but usually they
stay near the good eats, so you should look for garbage or other such
attractions.  You might also check to see if the soil pipe from your 
bathroom is seeping.

					>>>==>PStJTT

>>You could try D-Con or something similar that is not inherently 
>>poisonous and is of no interest to cats. 
  
    The active ingediant in D-Con is Warfarin which works by suppressing
    the ability of blood to clot ( by destroying vitamin K if I remember
    correctly).  When I worked in veterinary medicine we treated a number
    of dogs for Warfain poisoning from eating D-Con.  I can't remember
    treating any cats for the problem but you might want to be aware
    of this if there are dogs around.
    
    George
    

    We live on a farm...horses, chickens, you name it. Theres just
    no keeping the rats away totally.  We did have a problem of them
    getting into the pantry though, through the crawl space under part
    of the house.  We tried D-Con.  It seems they eat the D-Con AND
    the box it comes in....actually sometimes drag the box away!! The
    rats that did die tended to die in the cellar and stunk like hell!
    
    We finally resorted to an exterminator.  He said not to use the
    over the counter stuff because it takes too long to work and the
    rats tend to die inside the house.  The stuff he left in bait trays
    causes them to search for water outside and then die there.  I don't
    know how accurate his "theory" is but for several weeks we found
    dead rats outside in the yard... and I'm talking about rats that
    were BIGGER THAN MY CAT!!!  
    
    Bottom line.. for 60 or 75 bucks (can't remember for sure) we have
    not seen a rat for a couple of years in spite of having a couple
    of barns and animal manure and grain around.
    
    Try an exterminator.
    

    
    Well, you could get a big snake!
    
    

>    The active ingediant in D-Con is Warfarin which works by suppressing
>    the ability of blood to clot ( by destroying vitamin K if I remember
>    correctly).  

Ooops.  Not a good choice then.  I thought I had read somewhere that
D-Con didn't contain a poison as such but was a material that would
swell up in the rat and cause mortal internal injuries.  So much for 
that idea.
					>>>==>PStJTT

Poison may be your best bet.  You can build a small box to put it in,
with rat-size entrance holes, that will keep other animals from getting
at it.  My uncle used to do that in the barn.  A 1x6x12 board with
1x4 on edge around it, with a couple of notches in the 1x4.  Set the
D-Con on the floor, set this cover gizzie over it, and put a brick
on top.
A friend of mine recommends some stuff called "Bar Bait" over D-Con;
it is (or was) available at Lancaster Grain & Supply in Lancaster, Mass.
It looks kind of like granola bars.

Poison DOES have one major drawback; the rats seem to have the perverse
habit of going off and dying inside the wall or other inconvenient
place, and smelling real bad for a while.

You could try a rat trap; use the same put-it-in-a-box trick to keep
from catching a cat or something.  Rats are very wary of traps though.

Seeing as this is inside your house, the exterminator route may be the
way to go.

    the comments in .2 raise legitimate concerns about accuracy,
    particularly in view of the potentially inflamatory statements i
    made in .1.
    Since the original note I have
    o talked to the Boston Globe city desk
    o Talked to the Boston Herald/American library
    o Talked to the Boston Public Library.
    
    Results
    Boston Globe lady remembered an "event" a couple of years ago. 
    (parenthetically, her first reaction when I mentioned an "old story
    about rat bites, was "oh my God", her reaction really seemed out
    of context, but maybe she hadn't clearly understood my question) At
    any rate she said I should contact Boston Globe Library.

    Boston Herald/American library staff "remember such an event 25
    years ago or so". They could find no record. Suggested Boston Public
    Library.
    Boston Public Library unable to help. Said I could look through
    micro film.

    There is just enough stuff here to suggest "Urban Legend". Although
    i INSIST I read the story, the story itself -OR my memory of it
    may be apocryphal.
    
    My next step is to write a letter of inquiry to the Boston Globe
    Library.

    
    				herb

    While reading through all the home magazine issues that arrived
    this past week I saw an ad that seemed so revolting I thought it
    was a joke - so I read it again.  There is a company that makes
    strips that you place on the floor (2 different sizes, one for mice
    and one for rats).  The animal gets stuck on the strip and dies...
    discard strip with attached carcass.
    
    Sounds revolting but it may be a viable alternative to poisons.
    
    Perhaps someone else is familiar with these products and could
    elaborate.
    
    ep

>    Since the original note I have
>    o talked to the Boston Globe city desk
>    o Talked to the Boston Herald/American library
>    o Talked to the Boston Public Library.
.
.
.
>    My next step is to write a letter of inquiry to the Boston Globe
>    Library.

Not to belittle your effort, but why bother?  It really has nothing to 
do with the question posed in .0, or for that matter the purpose of the 
file.  If you want to pursue it, maybe it would be better moved to 
VISA::JOYOFLEX, where hunting down urban legends fits a little better.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .-1 your comments are understandable, thankyou. However... 
    
    i certainly do not want somebody to be frightened inappropriately. (and
    would guess that might be the motivation behind the comments in .2). If I
    cannot confirm the story, then I owe the conferees a retraction. If it
    CAN be confirmed, i believe y'all should be aware of that. 

        				herb
    

    re: the glue strip traps
    
    Yeah, they exist and yeah, I think they're revolting too.  I guess
    they work, and probably they're no less "humane" than poison, but
    the idea of a creature stuck in glue, struggling and struggling
    until it dies, turns me off.  Spring traps are probably the most
    "humane" of anything, but rats tend to be very wary of traps.

    	If you choose to use traps, be careful of rat traps.  They are
    MUCH more powerful than your average mouse trap.  When we had mice
    I decided not to use those wimpy mouse traps but to get the high
    power rat traps.  The result was little mouse parts being splattered
    over the cellar each time he found a trap.
    
    					=Ralph=

    I don't know how big a hole the rat chewed into your bathroom, but if
    it's small enough I'd suggest stuffing it with steel wool till you get
    it sealed up . A rat can chew through most anything, but chewing
    through steel wool is painful for them and they're likely to give up
    before they get through. That doesn't solve your problem, of course,
    but it WILL help protect your home from other varmints coming through
    the hole till you get it sealed up! 
    
    						Pat Resende

I've just glanced through these quickly so forgive me if I'm being 
redundant.  Aside from the more obvious dangers to pets and farm 
animals from rat poison, there is another disadvantage to this method.

The rat eats the poison, gets sick and dies. If he dies outside, you 
(but not scanvengers and pets) are rid of him. If he dies inside (like 
in a wall) you'll wish he hadn't.

From experience,

Chuck

I have heard from several sources I can't remember that a reason rats
or squirrels will not succumb to some of the same products (like
Decon) effective for mice is that the larger rodents can regurgitate
while the smaller ones have no such reflex. 

That is the reason there is a difference between 'rat poison' and 
'mouse poison.' 

Can anyone confirm or debunk that notion with authority?

John H.

I don't know it if applies to the 'strips' mentioned, but there 
used to be a product called 'sticky traps' or something. 

It was a plastic tray filled with yellow sticky stuff.  But I believe 
there was more to it than that.  I seem to remember that they were 
tainted with lye which ate through the critter and killed it.  I know 
it had a million cautions against touching it.  We used them in 
college because no one wanted to deal with a spring trap, we would pick 
up the whole sticky-thing-and-mouse with a shovel and heave it.

I heard they were taken off the market because of an animal rights 
group, but we were out of the mouse-house so I didn't look for them 
any more.

If they are still available and you use them, be sure to put them up 
so your pet/child won't get stuck.

    
    Hello everybody, and thanks for the quick response.  Here are the
    reponses to many of your questions/suggestions.
    
RE: .1

    Rats *are* serious.  They can carry *rabies* and *bubonic plague*,
    neither of which I am too keen on getting. 
    
    I talked to my neighbor yesterday, who used to be the dog officer
    for the town I live in.  She told me that if a rat bites me, I better
    make sure to catch it (either keep it alive, or kill it and freeze
    it), so it can be tested for rabies.  Otherwise, I have to get the
    treatment (fun stuff - injections in the stomach and all 8-{ ).
    
RE: .4

>You're talking about a crawl space under your house?  

    Well, yes. Under my bathroom, actually.  The house has a basement, but
    it did not originally (90 years ago) come with bathrooms.
    Unfortunately, the crawl space is literally that, and not easy to work
    in. 

>Are you in a city or in the country?  In the country, rats in the house
>probably mean they're nesting there or in a nearby outbuilding (like a
>barn.)  In the city they could be coming from anywhere, but usually they
>stay near the good eats, so you should look for garbage or other such
>attractions.  You might also check to see if the soil pipe from your 
>bathroom is seeping.

    A country village.  In fact I've lived in the "country" most of my
    life, and am familiar with field mice, but this is the first time I've
    seen a rat.   

    Unfortunately, I have many neighbors with old sheds and barns that
    would be perfect breeding grounds for them.  One of my neigbors has a 1
    car garage, and unused car and an unused van, all *filled* to the brim
    with *junk*.  And I am not exagerating, if you could meet this guy,
    some of you wouldn't complain so much about *your* neigbors.  Another
    neighbor had a barn *full* of rats, once they got rid of all the cats.
    The wife used to blow them away with a shot gun, until they put a
    cement floor in the barn (which pretty much fixed it).
    
    Besides those wonderful hideouts, there are a couple of paper mills in
    the town, which are a home for a good many rats, and they can swim up
    the river to the village. 

RE: .5

> When I worked in veterinary medicine we treated a number
> of dogs for Warfain poisoning from eating D-Con.  I can't remember
> treating any cats for the problem but you might want to be aware
> of this if there are dogs around.

    It is unlikely that any dogs would be able to get in the crawl space. I
    suspect that the reason you treated dogs but not cats, is that cats are
    fussier eaters, but I'm sure it is equally or more deadly to felines.
    But I don't want to knock off any hungry wild "toms" as they might
    scare off the rats. 

RE: .6
    
>    Try an exterminator.

    The problem with the exterminator business is that the source most
    certainly not my house or yard, but the neighbors (see above).  I doubt
    that would help much.  That's why I thought it might be better to put
    something in the crawl space for the occasional "wanderer". 

RE: .7

>    Well, you could get a big snake!
    
    You got one?  I'll take it!  I'll take a non-poisonous snake anyday
    over a rat! 
    
RE: .9    
    
>A friend of mine recommends some stuff called "Bar Bait" over D-Con;
>it is (or was) available at Lancaster Grain & Supply in Lancaster, Mass.
>It looks kind of like granola bars.

    I'll look into it. 

    
>Poison DOES have one major drawback; the rats seem to have the perverse
>habit of going off and dying inside the wall or other inconvenient
>place, and smelling real bad for a while.

    A DEAD rat is a GOOD rat (and vice versa), even if it does stink!
    Chances are I could get rid of it if it dies in the crawl space,
    though. 
    
RE: .11    
    
>    While reading through all the home magazine issues that arrived
>    this past week I saw an ad that seemed so revolting I thought it
>    was a joke - so I read it again.  There is a company that makes
>    strips that you place on the floor (2 different sizes, one for mice
>    and one for rats).  The animal gets stuck on the strip and dies...
>    discard strip with attached carcass.
>    
>    Sounds revolting but it may be a viable alternative to poisons.

    It's no more revolting than seeing a rat in your bathroom, believe me!
    I'd just be a little skeptical about that working, after seeing the
    great job this rat did eating through stuff. 

RE: .15
    
>    	If you choose to use traps, be careful of rat traps.  They are
>    MUCH more powerful than your average mouse trap.  When we had mice
>    I decided not to use those wimpy mouse traps but to get the high
>    power rat traps.  The result was little mouse parts being splattered
>    over the cellar each time he found a trap.

    NOW, *THAT* IS REVOLTING! 
    
RE: .16    

>    I don't know how big a hole the rat chewed into your bathroom, but if
>    it's small enough I'd suggest stuffing it with steel wool till you get
>    it sealed up . A rat can chew through most anything, but chewing
>    through steel wool is painful for them and they're likely to give up
>    before they get through. That doesn't solve your problem, of course,
>    but it WILL help protect your home from other varmints coming through
>    the hole till you get it sealed up! 

    Ain't no way, steel wool would stop this guy! 

    The hole is surprisingly large.  I could easily put my hand through it.
    I have nailed some masonite over the hole the best I could for now,
    but will have to do a better job of it.  The thing that bothers
    me is how easily it must have been for him to eat his way through
    wood and formica.  So capping the hole only looks like a temporary
    solution.

    

    re: .20
    
    Just to make your day...I have heard that rats can chew through
    up to 4" of concrete.  Maybe poor-quality concrete, but it's
    still pretty amazing.

    
    RE: .20
    
    Thanks, Steve.  You've made my day.  8^(
    
    -tm
    

    4" of concrete??
    
    
    Nah!!!

    RE .11
    
    "Sticky traps" are still around; we use them in our house at school.
    
    RE Exterminators
    
    This may be addressed in another note, but I think exterminators
    are the best way to go if it is a big problem.  We currently have
    a ant/mouse/rat problem  (No roaches - we got 'em with boric acid)
    What exterminator should I call?? (Also, is this addressed in another
    note or should I start a new note for it).
    
    - Get those RATS!!
    
    Peter G.
    

>    What exterminator should I call?? (Also, is this addressed in another
>    note or should I start a new note for it).
    
All contractors reference go in the reference section starting at note 2000 - 
see note 2000 for how this works.  I don't think there's an exterminator's note 
yet, so this would have to go in 2027 - misc.

Paul

    How about a ball bearing rat trap?  Yes a good strong aggreesive
    tom cat.  I lived in Boston Back Bay where we had mega amounts of
    rats.  Our rat population grew when attached neighbors tried
    exterminating.  I also lived in a country cottage on a water inlet
    where rats and mice would live in the thatched roof.
    I trapped and poisoned in both cases but the most effective means
    was a good hunting cat, that is not pasified by neutering.  It may
    be difficult getting a good cat, but at least your in the country
    so the cat can roam around a bit and pick off rat scouts.
    
    Good Luck,
    Paul
    

I read an atricle in Nat'l Geographic some years back on rats.  Apparently
their teeth grow and they must continually grind them by chewing on things
like wood, concrete, etc.  In fact, if they can't gnaw, they run the danger of
their teeth growing so long that they'll curl around and back through their
necks!

-mark

    
    
    "If rats were the size of English schoolboys, they'd wipe us
    out in a week!"   --Hemlock Stones

    I have, what might be, a dumb question.  Are mice's fur ever 
    gray in color?  I've only seen white mice.
    
    The reason I ask is because, walking out to my car this morning
    I noticed this gray fur thing lying on the ground in my driveway.
    I went over to it and saw that it was a dead mouse(rat?).  It 
    looked like it might be a little big for a mouse.  Was it a rat?
    It also had, what seemed to me, a short tail.  I couldn't really
    tell if it died in its tracks or if something killed it and left
    it there.  There was no blood.
    
    I hope this doesn't mean we're going to have a problem.  My mother
    was just telling me last night that a section of their neighborhood
    has a problem with rats.
    
    Kathy

>    I have, what might be, a dumb question.  Are mice's fur ever 
>    gray in color?  I've only seen white mice.

Almost always grey for wild mice, sometimes brown, almost never white.  White 
mice are only in pet stores.
    
Since the dead critter you saw was grey and had a short tail, it is also very 
doubtful it was a rat.  Rats are usually brown, and have a long tail.  What you 
saw was probably a meadow vole, but may have been a mole or even a gopher (I'm
not sure if gophers are usually grey or brown).  In any case, I wouldn't worry 
about it - none of these critters are likely to want to move into your house.

Paul

    Thanks for your quick reply.
    
    I know moles have no eyes and this critter did have eyes.  I think
    it was smaller than a gopher.  It must be a mouse.  I'm glad to find
    out it's not a rat.  I was just afraid if it were rat, that there
    would be more.  I just didn't want my 2 cats playing with a rat
    in case one made it into the house.    I wouldn't worry about a
    mouse getting in.  I think my 2 kitties would make pretty good mousers.
    
    Kathy

    Moles do have eyes - they just don't use them all that much.
    
    We have three cats, and we frequently find contributions in front of 
    the house in the form of voles, moles, mice, birds, or chipmunks. 
    Sometimes intact, more often in kit form.

    I have been unable to confirm the story in .1
    Sources include
    Boston Globe library
    Herald American library.
    
    
    			herb

    I just moved to Charlotte, NC from Silicon Valley, CA and boy  have
    I got a flea problem. The local vet recommended a exterminator that
    guarantees his work for one year. He uses a mixture of boric acid
    and boraxo. One ingredient is supposed to dissolve the shells of
    the fleas and eggs  the other dehydrates them.
    
    I'm thinking of using this guy, all the other exterminators use
    charge more and only guarantee for one month. Has any body heard
    of this treatment before ? Do you know of any precautions I should
    take?

    
    ref .18
    
    George-
    
    The most important precaution is to cover your eyes and nose before
    he sprays you!
    
    |;)
    
    p.s. and try not to scratch.

    My husband and I are seriously considering buying this old Colonial
    with an attached barn out in the country.  This house is 150 years
    old, and hasn't been occupied in three years.  The home also needs
    complete renovations.  I've been through the barn and all over the
    place are droppings.  My question is could they possibly be RATs
    droppings.  My husband says, "oh no dear, that is just mice droppings".
    I know he wouldn't dare tell me they could be RAT droppings.
    
    							Paula

    It is certainly possible that they could be rat droppings.  If the
    house hasn't been occupied in 3 years, the droppings may be old.
     It shouldn't be too hard to get rid of either the mice or rats,
    since they usually hang around where there is food.  If you plan
    on storing food, such as horse food, etc. then they will have an
    incentive to stick around - mice or rats.
    
    However, if you are careful about the storage of food and garbage,
    then I can't see where they would have any reason to stick around.
     This would then cause them to go where there is an easier supply
    of food.
    
    My parents used to have a problem with field mice getting into the
    house around the fall, when it began getting cold.  The mice would
    go in through the attached shed, where we stored the garbage bags
    waiting to be put out on garbage day.  They would climb up the cinder
    block walls and scurry around in the ceiling over the converted
    garage.  We simply put some wonderful mouse poison, and they all
    died away.
    
    Ed..
    

    Sure they could be rat droppings...but .35 is right, they are
    probably old if the house hasn't been occupied in 3 years.
    If you're not going to keep animals and have grain or other
    animal food around, you shouldn't have any problem.  The real
    key to getting rid of (or not having) mice and rats is not
    having food available for them.  For example, I'd kind of like
    to have a bird feeder, but guess what I found under the eaves
    and in all kinds of nooks and crannies when I redid my roof
    last year...birdseed, where the mice had stashed it.  A mouse-free
    house means more to me than a bird feeder, so I've not gotten
    the bird feeder.

    
    Paula,
    If your house is in the country and not part of a subburb then
    more than likely your husband is right and it is mice, or chipmunk,
    or squirrel. 
    
    Rats tend to stay in areas where there is LOTS of easy food and
    water and where they don't have to move too far from the hole to
    get to it. They love the water front, dumps, incerators, sewers,
    farmers markets, and old, crowded, poorly insulated and poorly
    cleaned/maintained tenaments.

    Rats are big, strong, ugly, mean, rodents that tend to travel and
    live in packs of sometimes up to a hundred. Mice are small, cute,
    cowardly rodents that stay in family units normaly not larger than
    15/20.

Just to further muddy the waters, our 200-year old Colonial which is
located in the countryside of New Hampshire, came with a charming family
of six rats.  The first one lost his life in our brand new rat trap,
the second and third were grabbed by the cat, and the rest moved out.

As so many replies have said, your first line of defense is to be sure
there is no food that will attract them.  The prior owners of our house
left bird seed, nuts and dry grains and cereal in all sorts of places
that were available to the rodent population (one mouse has also been
dispatched by the cat).  Keep all such food in sturdy containers, like
jars or plastic bowls.  We have done that since living in Virginia and
learning to protect food from various insects.

Don't let it stop you from enjoying the house, just get a good mouser!


Jan  who_currently_has_nine_cats_and_no_rats

    I was in Builder's Supply yesterday, and noticed that they carry
    'SNAIL RID' to keep large land snails off your property and house.
    WE DON'T HAVE LAND SNAILS IN MASS LIKE THEY DO IN CALIFORNIA, DO
    WE?
    
    (I guess this is a symptom of their West-Coast roots...)
    
    
    mark

    Mark,
    
    How large is LARGE?  I don't know about California, but I regularly
    see snails(slugs) as large as a grown man's index finger, 3 1/2
    to 4" long and as big in diameter. This is in Newton, Mass.  At
    night, they crawl around on the front walk, up the side of the house
    etc., leaving their glistening, slimy trails.  My neighbor has a
    lot of plants and flowers and has been overrun with snails this
    year.  She tried the beer in a saucer approach, but couldn't keep
    up with them when she went on vacation.  She is now spreading some
    kind of poison slug bait arount the yard which looks like hamster
    food.
    
    Do they get bigger than this in California? What about Texas? Don't
    they have the biggest everything ? :^)
    
    Jim

    
    If you really want to find out what it is, try talking to the neighbors
    (assuming you have some).  I found out a lot by talking to my
    neighbors.  And if you have pets, be sure to have them vaccinated
    for rabies.
    
    --tm
    

I've seen slugs in MA, but not very many snails.  And even the slugs
I've seen here have nothing on the hords of snails I've seen in CA!
Some idiot Frenchman imported them for his restraunt, then released them
(accidentally or deliberately, I don't know which) when escargot didn't 
catch on.  Or so I heard it told.  It's like gypsy moths in New England --
an introduced species filling an ecological niche and creating havoc.

Jim, the next time I get homesick for good old California, maybe I should
visit your friend in Newton.  From your description, I'd feel right at
home.  :->  Except that in CA, there are plenty of them in the day, too.  
I remember too many times when I accidentally crunched one weeding or
walking around in the yard (sorry about that).  But as much as I hate 
snails, I'd take them over slugs any day.  Yuch!

	Larry

    I spent a marginally successful summer flea bombing the house multiple
    times. The little buggers simply returned a couple weeks later. I now
    use an insecticide with the trade name ProBan (Pro-Ban ?). You give it
    to your dog, 1 pill per every 20 lbs, twice a week. The flees bite once
    and then die. The dosage is controlled (I don't dump too much powder on
    him one week and not enough the next), it's all in the dog (better that
    than all over me and everything I touch), it's much cheaper than flea
    bombing the house and I've found it to do an excellent job. When the
    mutt starts munching on his hind end in the spring I start up with the
    pills and the fleas are gone in two weeks. I live in NH where the fleas
    aren't so bad and they bother neither myself nor the cats, so people in
    the south may find their mileage may vary. However, I have a relative
    who uses it in Florida and North Carolina with good results. A couple
    of years ago when they first started testing the medication some dogs
    overdosed and died. However, they stuff you get now is about 1/100th of
    that strength and there are very few cautions. It shouldn't be used on
    greyhounds (or was it whippets?), perhaps one other breed and I think
    it's pregnant dogs. Other than that, it's great stuff.

    RE: .20
    
    ProBan is also not suitable for use on cats.
    
       Gary

    When I was younger, I used to go slug hunting in my parent's garden at
    night. With a flashlight and a salt shaker, I'd track them down and
    then sprinkle a little salt on them. The salt eats right through their
    body. It was great!
    
    I don't do it any more, but I still have fond memories of those
    days...
    
    Joe
    
                                             
                                         

    I have read a number of comments about the dangers of applying
    Chlordane.  Well, should that influence my decision to buy a home?
    
    A note in the listing sheet for a house that I am considering states:
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    "NOTE: Chlordane has been used on the premises for the treatment
    of carpenter ants (1985)"
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Should I be concerned about this?  What questions should I ask?
    (I do have two small children -- 8 and 2 years old -- and I don't
    want to take ANY risks with their health!)
    
    Thanks, Roger                                 
    (also posed to Real Estate notes file)

    Re .0
    
    Can you find out any more details about how it was applied and by
    whom?  If it was done as a DIY amateur job I'd think more than
    twice about it.  We needed treatment in our house just prior to
    the ban, while a moritorium was in effect.  We ended up with
    Dursban which was much more expensive but in addition to being
    safer we were convinced it would not negatively impact the resale
    value of the house.  
    
    If the house has forced hot air heat and the chemical was not
    applied properly you could have a big problem.  Especially with
    small children I'd really consider walking away from it.  Not
    sure if there's any ways to check for it, like they do for Radon-
    perhaps worth looking into.  
    
    Good luck!

    Find out who applied the Cloridane, where, how, and how much.  If the
Cloridane was applied by a licensed entomologist/extermiator then there
shouldn't be that serious a risk.  If it was a professional, then try
to contact them to see if they have a record of what was done.  If it 
was a DYI job, then their could be grounds to worry since the half-life 
of Cloridane is very long (the figure 60 years comes to mind), not to 
mention the fact that its been illeagal for non-licensed persons to 
purchase or use Cloridane in Mass. for several years now.

    Cloridane is still the most common pesticide used in the treatment
of termite infestations; although, I believe that other agents, such as
Durisban, are gaining popularity because of their shorter half-lives.
The caution about forced hot air heating being a problem with
Cloridane treatements is something that is related to treatment for
termite infestations and is almost exclusively related to slab
foundation structures.  To treat a house for termites holes are
drilled through the foundation and pestiside is injected through those
holes.  In some structures built on slabs with forced hot air heat the
holes that were drilled went into the heating ducts, so the pestiside
was circulated in the house by the heating system. 

    --- Richard ---
    

    If it was me I'd also check to see if a test (air quality or some
    such thing) could be done to see if there is chloridane in the house.  
    In small amounts you can't see it, smell it, or taste it but it can 
    still harm you.  But then I've been known to be paranoid about some 
    things :-)

    George

    There must be a better way of getting rid of rats than having to
    use cats. What do you then use to get rid of the cats, pit bulls?
       
    At least if you have rats you hardly ever see them, and they make
    an effort to stay away from you. Unless you happen to be a 'cat
    person', the cure sounds worse than the cause.

    I'd be VERY concerned as to why they had carpenter ants. Water damaged
    structural wood is what attracts them, and they do an enormous amount
    of damage.
    
    People tend to get rid of the ants. Sometimes, they fix the cause of
    the water damage (roof leak, long term gutter backup, etc). Very rarely
    do they fix the structural damage. 

    
    Can someone tell me the exact story on Chlordane?
                               
    I've had it sprayed on my foundation several times since I bought
    my house.
    
    Cal.
    
    

    Chlordane is one of the most effective insecticides for the control
    of termites and so forth. Unfortunately, its also one of the most
    poisonous, with a long life before it breaks down. Correctly applied
    on the outside should cause little trouble. The problems come up
    when it was applied improperly, or used inside the house. This problem
    was very pronounced with slab construction, when the chlordane got
    into heating ducts. This is the reason it use has been banned in
    many areas. If it was properly applied on the outside of your
    foundation, you probably should have little concern.
    
    Eric

    We have had our house for 15 years. I spray the foundation and the
    area where the ground and foundation meet each
    spring with Chlordane. (bought a quart several years before it was
    banned and use about 6 tblspoons each year). We also have a bird
    feeder about 6 or 7 feet above the ground that attracts lots of
    birds. Nuthatches, various finches, chicadees, swallows, cardinals,
    mourning doves, and squirrels. The doves and squirrels eat discards
    from the ground. We also have lots of blue jays, and robins in our
    yard althought they don't seem to each the seeds. For what its worth,
    and that maybe nothing, we have never seen a dead animal or bird
    in our yard. The squirrels have founded a nest in our attic, and
    are quite happy, the birds have founded a nest in our cornice but
    thats another story.
    
    
    			hopin' i dont regret sayin' this
    			animal and bird lovin' herb
    
    

    My older home was treated with Chlordane sometime before I bought
    the house. There were no records about who/how the application was
    done, but it was clearly a professional termite job. Through the
    years, I avoided using the basement because it 'smelled,' but I
    figured the odor was from animals past.
    
    Recently, I had the sills replaced because of termite damage and
    called an exterminator to do another termite treatment. He carefully
    checked the interior of the foundation and told me that the smell
    was from Chlordane weeping back into the cellar through hair-line
    cracks in the mortar. (The foundation is granite block) He suggested
    that I seal the cellar before he does his Durisban (sp?) application
    because he didn't want me to have further complications.
    
    After much sreaching through this notes file, I concluded that the
    easiest and most efficient way to seal the cellar is with THOROSEAL.
    It's pretty easy to apply, but it takes patience when doing walls
    and floor for the whole cellar. (It also takes patience to find
    enough of it for sale in one location!) After that's done, I'll
    top it off with waterproof latex paint.
    
    So far, the cellar is about 3/4 done and it already smells *quite*
    different. I'll let you know how it turns out when it's all finished.
    
    Oh ... one more thing. They sprayed some unidentified pesticide
    on the unfinished ceiling, too. That's going to get sealed with
    heavy duty sheet plastic and eventually sheetrocked.... but not
    this weekend.

We had fleas this summer also and tried Revenge! without much success.  We then
tried an old remedy recommended by my in-laws.  Moth Flakes!!  We placed moth
flakes in small boxes and placed them in various places around the house. 
My wife, who seems to be extremely susceptible to flea bites, had no more bites
after we placed the boxes.  It was cheap and (I think) relatively non-toxic.

Mark Parenti

    
    .40> At least if you have rats you hardly ever see them, and they make
    .40> an effort to stay away from you.
    
    I bet you have not had any experience with rats, because that
    statement is incorrect.  Rats, unlike mice, can be  quite bold, 
    and they carry a myriad of diseases.  This is not a problem people
    should learn to live with.
    

    And the right cat will sleep during the day, catch rodents at night,
    and avoid people.  Lots of cats are fairly shy around humans.
    
       Gary

    night light and a bowel of water with soap in it works best for
    year around protection.  those little bugs just hop right over jump
    up to the light, fall in the water in you guess it drown.  it takes
    about 6 weeks to get all the ones that hatch out.

>    night light and a bowel of water with soap in it works best...

Sounds uncomfortable.  Especially the part about feas jumping into it...

	Well, I've looked through all the replys here, and I think I've
got a rat. Below is an attempted sketch of out kitchen counter. The house
is about 30 years old, 4br colonial with a full semi-finished basement.
The cabinets are plywood, and there are passages between cabinets and drawers.


                   SINK
---------------------------------------------------------------------
  DRAWER    |   \__________/   |         |
------------|                  |         |
  BREAD     |                  |         |
  DRAWER    |                  |   DW    |
------------|            AC    |         |
  DRAWER    |                  |         |
------------|                 HOLE       |
  DRAWER    |                  |         |
------------------- -- ----------- - --------------------------------
                   PIPE HOLES


	It started one night when my wife told me that the new dishwasher
I'd put in 6 months ago wasn't working - symptom was no power and she'd
checked the obvious (fuses, etc). This particular installation isn't hard-wired
but has a cord (three-wire appliance) that passes through a hole in the
cabinet partition and goes to an AC outlet (dedicated) under the sink. The
hole is round, 1" in diameter. I checked power under the DW and found none,
but the outlet was fine. Examining the cord, I found it worn (knawed,chewed?)
half way through, right where it passes through the hole. A bag of birdseed
under the sink was chewed open, and bread bags in the bread drawer also.

 	We moved all foofstuffs, laid out some spring traps baited with
peanut butter (I'd heard that was best), and I replaced the cord. After
a week (no action in the traps), the new cord was similarly chewed, but
just through the outer insulation this time! I taped it up, and we're
watching it closely.

	My wife thinks (and I tend to agree) that the 1" hole is not quite
big enough for rat plus cord, so the cord has to be chewed through for
the rat to get to the food. 

	We're thinking about DCon, the sticky paper, etc. I can/will plug
up all the holes, but we'd really like to catch it first and be rid of the
beast. 
	One last item, one of our cats (we have several) has taken to sleeping
right in front of these cabinets (on guard duty, my wife says)! 

	Does it sound like a rat? Is there anything else we should do?

Thanks for any advice.

/Floyd Rinne
                                 

    Sure does !!!  A mouse could walk through a 1" hole standing up,
    but a rat (adult) couldn't.  Sticky paper - works, but once you
    have a snarling, spitting, slashing angry (and dangerous) rat stuck
    to your paper, who gets the job of picking it up.  Use DCON and
    hope he (she) doesn't die under the cabinets.  It is a headache
    AND a major noseache if that happens.   
    
    BTW, your cat is well aware something is there.  Cats will sit for
    days waiting for their prey.  Is there any way the cat could be
    given the same access the rat has and let the fight begin ???
    Course, big rat, small cat means another problem.....
    the same access the rat did???

i'd suspect a mouse before i yelled rat.  a 1" hole is awful small for the 
rats i've seen.  a live trap called "tin cat" worked pretty well for us 
with our occasional visitors.

craig

    I see nothing in your tale that wouldn't apply to squirrels.
    
    

    If you are tempted to let the cat and nature take its course, I'd
    first make sure the cat's rabies vaccinations are up to date.  I'd
    hesitate about letting even a large cat go after a rat; rats can
    be vicious.
    
    Since you know that birdseed and bread have already attracted the
    varmint, I'd try one of those, possibly alone, possibly along with
    the peanut butter.
    
    If you do opt for a trap or poison, then keep the cat away.  Not
    just because you don't want to poison the cat, but also because
    the cat is more likely to scare the rodent away.  Even if they're
    physically separated, the cat's smell will still be there.
    
       Gary

     I know this sounds kind of mean, but a cheap way to get rid of 
     rats is to mix equal parts of flour and cement powder in a bowl.
     Place a large bowl of water next to the bowl with the mixture.
     The rat eats the mixture, drinks the water...soon the rat's
     innards will soidify,....etc...very nasty ending.

     -Marc

     P.S. - no I've never been mean enough to actually do this myself.

    RE: .43 - .49
    We put sticky traps under the DW and sink, near the hole shown in
    .43, but no luck. Yesterday, the small amount of bread we left in
    the bread drawer was chewed, so we moved a trap to there. The rat
    must have found other access. Lo and behold, this AM, there was the
    "snarling, spitting, angry..." beast! About 4" long (body) with
    a 6" tail, all brown, and stuck! 
    
    I think we'll leave some of the traps around, just in case there
    was a group of them.

    Thanks to this conference, and all you helpful members out there.
    
    /Floyd Rinne

    
    Re: .50
    
    Glad you got it.  By the way, for those who are interested in my
    original note, I have not seen any evidence of the rat who ate his
    (or her) way up through my crawlspace.  I have begun work on
    blocking off the crawl space, and I  hope I can get it done before
    winter. 
    
    -tm
    

    This topic and all replies should be sent to Stephen King.  Clearly,
    from the volume of responses, the idea of rats roaming unseen in
    secret spaces touches a primordial nerve.  Mr. King could use
    much of the vivid imagery straight from these pages ...

Re: .-1   It was a best seller, and a movie (with a sequel, no less)...

It was called "Willard"

    With Spring coming let's revive this old note...
    
    I'm gonna mount a frontal attack against mosquitos.  I've read up
    on them and having discovered that they're extremely territorial
    (most never go more than 100 yds from home), I'm going to try a
    few things (I have a ten acre wooded lot with a few small areas
    of standing water).
    
    1) Does anyone know where to get whatever spray or compound one
    uses on standing water to keep them from hatching?  I've seen it
    used professionally as part of town spraying programs but never
    in a store.
    
    2) Dragonflies and Purple Martins eat them like crazy.  Purple Martins
    you attract with Purple Martin houses.  Dragonflies I'm told can
    be bought (larvae).   Anyone know where?
    
    3) I have a neighbor who regularly "fogs" the perimeter of his lot
    with some junk in a propane-driven fogger.  Does anyone know if
    this works on a long-term basis?
  

>                                                      I've read up
>    on them and having discovered that they're extremely territorial
>    (most never go more than 100 yds from home), ...

You might want to check on WHY they don't move that far.  It may be because
of population density, and when you change that density by killing off the
skeeters in a given area, the others will be more than willing to expand
their range.  After all, how did they get everywhere in the first place?

Cute story digression: This story is a favorite in the Army and may even
be true -- certainly it should be true if it's not.  A nameless Officer
Training Fort in Georgia wanted to eliminate their mosquito problem.  The
job was given to the Corps of Engineers who after a long study determined
that mosquitoes never flew higher than 11 feet.  Consequently, an 11 foot
wall was built around the fort.  When it was finished, and mosquitoes were 
still everywhere, a new study showed that mosquitoes approaching the wall
would climb to 12 feet...

>    1) Does anyone know where to get whatever spray or compound one
>    uses on standing water to keep them from hatching?  I've seen it
>    used professionally as part of town spraying programs but never
>    in a store.
 
I think Shell developed the stuff.  I've never seen it offered to civilians
either, and if you live in a state that has a wetlands commission, you
might have to go through some serious red tape to get permission to use it.
It kills any bug that has the same life cycle as mosquitos (mayflies for
example) and it has a negative impact on the things that need insects for
food.


>    3) I have a neighbor who regularly "fogs" the perimeter of his lot
>    with some junk in a propane-driven fogger.  Does anyone know if
>    this works on a long-term basis?
 
How do you mean?  If you mean will the neighbor keep fogging regularly
over a long period of time, then yes, I have neighbors who have been
fogging regularly for years and show no signs of letting up.  If you mean
will it keep the skeeters away for long periods of time, I think the 
answer must be no, since my neighbor who fogs always puts on insect
repellent before he goes out to do it. (Even an hour after he fogs, I note that
the skeets are back, though I can't guess at the number of skeeters per
unit volume of air.  It might be less or it might not.)

						>>>==>PStJTT

One other thought on where to get the suface water stuff... you might
send mail to Steve Chapman who hangs out in the GARDEN notesfile.  He's
a DEC groundskeeper and he's also a "Certified pesticide applicator" whatever
that might be.  He knows his poison though, and is very friendly and helpful.

				>>>==>PStJTT

    You might also want to consider bats. I don't remember the figure, but
    they consume many times their weight in mosquitos during a season. 

    I'm told that you put up "bat houses" and wait for them to show up -
    sort of like bird houses. I used to have an address for a local place
    that sold them. If you're interested I can try to dig out the address. 

	Don't know anything about mosquitos (being where I am now,
	I don't think I need to) but, I heard that GOLDFISH in the
	ponds help too....
	
	Scott.

    re past few
    
    The Mass. Audubon Society sells bat houses. (they seem rather low-tech
    -- like a good-sized bird house without a hole and missing the bottom. 
    I don't think you'd need three engineering degrees to make one
    yourself.) 
    
    Goldfish are supposed to eat the larve, and thus lower the population
    in standing water. 
    
    A recirculating pump is also supposed to help. 
    
     

    
    BATS!!!!  Hell, I'd rather live with the mosquitos!!!
    
    There are some things that aren't worth fighting.  How about building
    a screened porch or deck?  You'll need it anyway to get away from
    the bats, dragon-flies and Purple Martins... ;-)

    Try some soap in the water. A little should break the surface tension
    of the water and the mosquitos will drown. At least that is what
    I heard some where.

    We used to have bats in the second floor of the barn, a separate
    building from our house.  Once a real estate person came to estimate
    the house's value and started walking up to the barn's second floor.
    As I was apologetically trying to gloss over the problem, she
    exclaimed, "Wow, bats, that's great; they eat the mosquitoes."
    
    The bats have since departed.  Now we can't proclaim "bats in the
    barn" when it's time to sell the place.
    
    	Marlene

    This is beginning to sound like that song "There was an old lady who
    swallowed a fly...".  First you have mosquitoes, then you have
    dragonflies to eat the mosquitoes, then you have martins and bats that
    will eat both of them...  The question is, what eats bats and martins?
    
    There's always the Exxon Valdiz method...
    
    I asked my doctor if he could hypnotize me and make me enjoy mosquito
    bites.  Maybe if you concentrate on how good it feels to scratch
    them...
    
    Rumor has it that Avon's SKIN-SO-SOFT is an excellent mosquito
    repellent, and smells much better than OFF, etc.  Anyone else every
    heard that?

    re .27 Avon SKIN-SO-SOFT
    
    My Doctor mentioned using that stuff. I never tried it, but I guess
    it lends some credibilty to the idea. 
    
    My understanding is that mosquito bites itch because of the fluid they
    inject into you to remove their stinger. You may be able to develop an
    immunity to this stuff by allowing lots of them to sting you over a
    period of time. Also, if you kill them while they are biting you, you
    break off the stinger inside your skin, also causing problems. So let
    them sting you, pull out their stinger, and then kill them for good
    measure. Then again, you may get some other disease using this method,
    so, consult your physician first ! 
    
    

    YEP the Skin so Soft works!!!!, Only problem with it is that its
    oily, so you get that greasey feeling. But its better than being
    eaten alive, it also works fairly well agains black flies. Alot
    of sportman now use this stuff instead of most of the other pest
    control substances. 
    
    Ray

    I don't remember which Avon product it was, but it sure does work.
    I have not used it myself, but my wife has and it DOES work.
    
    While on the subject of mosquito repellents, I found out about a
    couple of things you should not eat during mosquito season.  We
    were out with a group and I'm usually the one the mosquitos seek
    out.  This time they chose another in the group.  He loves and eats
    a lot of banannas and peanuts.  It seems that the oils or some element
    of the chemical make up of these two food items react in such a
    way with the human body that they create an (invisible to us) odor
    that attracts mosquitos.
    
    When we are getting ready to go camping now, I don't eat these items
    for several weeks before or during.  I used to have the banannas
    for breakfast and then sit by the campfire at night munching on
    the peanuts.

    On the subject of becoming imune, I once met a guy from Canada who told
    me he took his son (10 yrs old at the time) on a hunting/camping trip
    way up in the wilds of Canada somewhere.  He said the black flies and
    mosquitoes were so bad that his son looked like one large swollen bite. 
    His eyes were puffed up almost closed, etc., etc.  He said after they
    got back and the kid recovered that the kid never was bothered by the
    bugs again.  He also said he learned the technique from his father,
    who used it on him when he was a kid.
    
    Sounds more like child abuse to me, but maybe it works.
    
    The kid that used to live next door used to wait until a mosquito had
    his snout buried up to the hilt in his arm, then pinch the skin right
    on either side of the mosquito, thus holding the hapless bug firmly in
    place.  Blood pressure would then cause the bug to expand until it
    literally blew up on his arm.  Didn't work on all bugs -- I guess they
    had to have a weak stomach or something.  Strange kid anyway.
    
    Bug lights are great.  The kill lots of moths and mess up everyone's TV
    and you feel like you are clearing a full acre of land of all its
    biting insects.

    I've used Avon Skin-So-Soft for the last two summers.  It works
    at least as well as anything else (eg, Cutter's) but is still not
    that effective for me.  Persperation washes it off so it must be
    reapplied when you are doing heavy work on a hot day.  At least,
    my wife says my skin looks five years younger :^).
    
    Gary

          You might try Agway. There is a Bascillus _____   that's been
    developed for mosquitos and black flies. It's added to swamps etc
    and because it's a biological control it won't harm birds, pets
    or beneficial insects.

    More gene-splicing, huh?  This sounds like a really useful invention,
    as long as the doctor doesn't tell me I have the mosquito flu.
    
    I'm going to check with Agway - I've got a whole swamp of a yard full
    of mosquitoes.  It would be interesting to know more about it like: 
    Does the infection spread through the mosquito and black fly
    popuoations by itself?  Does it die out naturally after a while, or
    does it continue to grow?  How does it work -- do the bugs die a
    horrible death or do they just get a nasty headache and say "Not
    tonight, dear..." to each other?
    
    I still think Legionnaires and AIDS were invented by the CIA.
    

    
    I agree with .32 about SSS.  It probably works well in areas of low
    bug population, but I live in a HIGH bug population area and SSS just
    doesn't do the job for me.  CUTTERS is the best, and DEEP WOODS OFF
    is pretty good too.  Both are ten times as effective as SSS.  
    

    You can pick up some stuff at your local rod and gun shop that will be
    the best, hands down. Buy the small bottles rather than the spray -
    It's harder to use but more concentrated and less wasteful. 
    BTW - be careful when using this stuff, it mars the surface of plastic 
    (Hmmm, I wonder what it does to my skin ?) 

    The active ingredient in Cutters and Deep Woods Off is a long chemical
    name that gets shortened for non-chemists (like me) to "deet". 
    Basically, deet is supposed to confuse the mosquito's chemical sensors
    (its nose sortof) so it can't find you.  A mosquito can't bite what
    it can't find.
    
    So, more deet is better.  At one time, Cutters or Deep Woods Off had
    the highest concentrations of deet (around 30%?).  There was a rumor
    that the Army was using 100% deet in something called "jungle juice"
    but it had a tendency to eat plastics.  I don't know whether the rumor
    was true, but there is now a product named Ben's that is 100% deet.  It
    comes in a little plastic bottle like miniture suntan lotion.  A little
    goes a long way.  Great stuff!
    
    Deet does *not* work on biting flies.  For them, nothing is as
    effective as a cigar.  I can attest that even in the depths of a swamp
    at the height of bug season, smoking a cigar vigorously will stop
    anything, man or beast!  Of course, one needs to make a personal
    decision as to which is worst, the flies or the cigar...
    
    
    John B.

    I believe the eating plastics stuff. I use Cutters and have seen
    evidence of this. I used to carry some of my tree cutting tools
    in a plastic bag that had printing on the outside. If I put on the
    Cutters and then picked up the bag, I ended up with the printing
    all over my hands.
    						Mark
    

re: .34

Our local hardware store carries a biological control for mosquitoes.  It's
expensive ($8/box), and I have no idea how well it works, how safe it is,
and whether it works on black flies.  I don't remember the box mentioning
any insects other than mosquitoes.  I'd guess it's similar or the same as
the Agway product.  If anyone has more information, I'd appreciate it.

   Gary

    What hardware store is this and what is the stuff called?
    
    Jim
    

    I've seen several garden supply stores, (including Laughtons over in
    Chelmsford) with BT (Bacillus Thurengensis, I think) based mosquito
    controllers.  The stuff I saw needed to be sprinkled in the breeding
    areas, which isn't really practical if you live someplace with lots
    of wetlands around.  It'll only kill insects, but I don't know if
    any beneficial insects (like dragonfly nymphs, which eat lots of
    mosquito larvae) would also be killed.
    
    /Dave

    re: .40, 41
    
    Yes, that's what it is.  Bacillus thuringiensis Berliner var.
    isrealenis, to be exact.  The one I saw is sold under the brand name
    Reuter's Mosquito Attack.  They also have a Sod Webworm Attack, which
    seems to be the same bacteria.
    
    There are two forms of the mosquito packaging.  One consists of five
    rings, each of which is rated for 100 sq feet of water; about $8/box of
    five.  The other is a powder that is supposed to be mixed into a spray,
    such as the sort you put on the end of a garden hose.  Three
    tablespoons of powder treats 10K sq feet (much more cost and labor
    effective), four ounces of powder per box, and I forgot to get the
    price of that box, but I don't think it's that much more than the
    rings.  
    
    This was at Apple Meadow Hardware (a True Value store) in Townsend.
    
    I'd hate to kill off the dragonflies.  Time to contact the Audobon
    Society for a bat and/or Purple Marlin house.
    
       Gary

        What I dream about is safe biological control for carpenter
        ants.  This seems to be the week for them to swarm (or
        whatever it is).  I spread/spray a lot of Diazinon around the
        house, but I really don't want to do that, and I'm sure that
        I'm on the road to breeding Diazinon-resistant ants.

        Bob

         The BT mentioned a few back won't hurt dragonfly nymphs and does
    also kill blackfly larvae. I'm going to have to get some next year as
    the BF this spring have been terrible.
    
    bob

    I live out by the Quabbin (hence in a somewhat rural area),  have a
    very large (500 acre) swamp past my backyard, and a small pond with a
    stream about 200 yards from the house. Hence, I get visited with
    blackflies and mesquitoes every spring/summer. 
    Last spring was the first spring in the house. Even with Ben's 100 or
    Deep Woods Off (I always buy products with 100% DEET), the blackflies
    would come after me. The most annoying part was that they always tried
    to get close to my eyes (All I can think of is the heat).
    My only solution was to call up LL Bean and have them send me netting
    for a hat (the best thing I ever bought!) and a (get a load of this)
    Ben's 100 armor jacket. It's a mesh jacket that you soak with Ben's
    100. 
    Last year was worse as far as blackflies go and both the jacket and hat
    worked out great.
    		Cindy
    

	BTi works thoeretically works on Black Flies, but in practice has 
	limited effectiveness.  The problem is that black flies lay their eggs
	in clear running water, so the BTi has a tendency to wash away.

	Brian

    I guess this would ge here.  After last weekends snowstorm, my wife was
    outside about 2 days later and noticed something on the snow.  She
    looked closer and noticed that they looked like black fleas.  She said
    they hop too.  Yesterday, I was outside and saw them for myself. 
    Hundreds of them on the snow.  Mostly they were just sitting there. 
    What the heck are fleas doing outside in the winter sitting on the
    snow?  I've never seen this before.
    
    Chris D.

Those were Snow Fleas (as opposed to Dog Fleas).  I don't know the details of 
their existence, but that is what you saw.

Stan

    I've never heard of "snow fleas" and never thought much about it
    after reading the initial note until Sunday, when I went out my
    seldom used sun room door, and found a gaggle of the things on the
    unshoveled steps.
    
    Does anyone know if these things are trying to get into my house?
    Should I nuke them with a pest killer before they get inside or
    will they go away on their own?
    
    Frank_who's_lived_here_all_my_life_and_never_seen_snow_fleas_before
    

 Snow Fleas are some form of Mite, I recall.  They live on the surface of
the snow and are basically(?) harmless.  They're black in color which
allows them to absorb the suns rays and survive.  Wonder where they
go when the snow goes away ?

/Joe

    I bought a house a few months ago which had been treated with chlordane
    several years ago.  It was professionally treated (drilled into
    foundation).  My question is this: do I need to be concerned with how
    far I plant vegetables and other edible plants from the house?
    Will plants absord the chlordane?  Is it likely that the chlordane is 
    in the soil around the house if the chlordane was applied through holes
    in the foundation?
    
    Is there someplace I can call to find out?
    
    Thanks,
    Ingrid
    

Another place you might get info about this would be in PICA::GARDEN

Paul

    Thanks, I've posted it there too.

    Does anyone know if the BT stuff mentioned a few back is 'legal' to use
    on wetlands?  We're considering buying a place that's half wetlands,
    but if there were an ecologically safe way of keeping the mosquitos
    down I'd feel a lot better about it...
    
    WIllie

    
    	It depends on where you live, how large the area, abuters, ect..
        I have sprayed, and fogged in the area behind my house, and never
    got any complaints!
    
    	
    	One thing I do know is that the towns of Hudson and Marlboro did an
    	aireal 'drop' of BT pellets last month, over the area that  I own
    	in.

    My house lot is about 1/3 wetlands. The other neighbors near me also 
    have a lot of wetlands. Recently,the state dropped BT all over
    my place and the surronding area. Done with helicopters...looked
    very strange.
    
    I would call the Central Mass Mosiquito Control in Northboro to get an
    answer.
    
    Marc H.

>    Does anyone know if the BT stuff mentioned a few back is 'legal' to use
>    on wetlands?  We're considering buying a place that's half wetlands,
>    but if there were an ecologically safe way of keeping the mosquitos
>    down I'd feel a lot better about it...

	   How about bug zappers?  A couple of the little cheapos placed
	strategically between your house and the wetlands (or other such
	breeding place) can help keep the populations in check.  They're
	supposed to be more effective if you start using them early in
	the spring.  That way you start reducing the mosquito population
	before they get a chance to start reproducing.  You should also
	run them just about every night.
	   The smallest zappers run on (I believe) a 7 watt flourescent
	lamp.  Unless they're zapping bugs, they draw very little current
	so running costs are small.  And best of all, there are absolutely
	no pesticides to add to the environment.
	    Note:  The flourescent bulbs attract the little buggers, so
	don't place them too close to your house.
	
					Tim

    re .51
    
    If you're buying a place that is half wetlands, make sure it has a
    screened porch. 8-)
    
    re. bugzappers
    
    They actually do more harm than good.  Mosquitos are not attracted to
    UV.  They survive by sensing carbon dioxide and heat; which translates
    to warm blooded creature.  Bug zappers work much better on insects that
    eat mosquitos (eg dragonflies) and bugs that don't matter (moths). 
    
    They do provide some summertime fireworks entertainment when some giant
    moth bumps into one. 
    
    Bob

    I once saw in a store a mosquito "lure" for bug zappers.  Basically
    you hook it up to a canister of propane, like for Coleman lamps.
    The "lure" part goes inside your bug zapper and it has a small pilot
    light which creates the heat and CO2 that attracts the mosquitos.
    I haven't seen them recently though.
    
    -al

    At a prev. house, one group that loved my zapper were the frogs in the
    yard. They would stay below the zapper and have a free meal dropped
    from above, cooked to perfection.
    
    Eric

>    re. bugzappers 
 >  They actually do more harm than good.  Mosquitos are not attracted to
 >  UV.  They survive by sensing carbon dioxide and heat; which translates
 >  to warm blooded creature.  Bug zappers work much better on insects that
 >  eat mosquitos (eg dragonflies) and bugs that don't matter (moths). 

	re .52  I'm crushed!  And I thought I was being environmentally 
	aware. (No DDT for me!)  I don't much care about the moths, but
	I wouldn't want to be wasting dragonflies and such.  I would've
	thought I'd have noticed something as big as a dragonfly, though.
	   Anyways, perhaps the mosquitoes are attracted to the moths
	and other unfortunate little flying thingies that get caught in
	the grids.  They would give off heat and CO2!  I live right next
	to water conservation land and a slow moving brook marks the
	boundaries of my property.  I would assume that there are quite
	a few families of skeeters living very close by but I didn't have
	a problem with them last year.
	   The conservation land is not really wetland but flood control.
	The brook is moving water but it does get pretty low during dry
	spells.

					Tim

re .55:

>	   Anyways, perhaps the mosquitoes are attracted to the moths
>	and other unfortunate little flying thingies that get caught in
>	the grids.  They would give off heat and CO2!

    They're so small that they won't give off very much, certainly not
    as much as you do.

Everything I've read has said that the only benefit of bug zappers is that
it makes the owners think that they're doing something useful.  And they
sure do make pretty sparks.  They tend to kill only beneficial insects, so
they may actually make the mosquito problem worse.

			Steve

    
    I wonder if a zapper could be fitted with a screen with a mesh
    too small for moths, dragonflies and other beneficial insects
    but just right for mozzies?
    
    If not, there are ways other than DDT.  You can spray vegetable
    oil on the surface of standing ponds - kills the larvae (but
    may also kill harmless insects).  There's a supersonic repeller
    and various pheromone/odour traps.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
      
    

Bt/israelensis is a biological control that kills only larvae of mosquitoes
and black flies.  It's harmless to "good" bugs.

Re: .55

Last summer was quite dry and thus there was less standing water for breeding.
In general, it was a good year for humans and a bad year for mosquitoes.
(I am talking about New England here)

Stan

As it was explained to me, the theory behind the bug zapper is not so much to 
kill off individual mosquitoes, but to break up their mating cycle.  

Unfortunately, most people who use a bug zapper put them too close to where 
they want to sit, and only turn them on when they are sitting there.

The correct implementation, if I understand the theory correctly, is to put
the zapper close to a mosquitoe breading area, and turn it on every night, all
night.   This breaks up the mating cycle of the mosquitoes in your area, and 
should result in fewer mosquitoes.

But then, its just a theory... 8-)

Bob

re .61:

If bug zappers don't attract mosquitoes, how can they break up their mating
cycle?  I'd think it's just the opposite -- Sam and Shirley Mosquito can't
sleep because of the noise of frying bugs, so they do what comes naturally.

    Well speaking from personal experience, in a prev. house that backed
    into wooks, prev. to putting up the zapper, if I stayed in the back
    past dusk in warm weather, I'd get eaten alive by the bugs. I had a
    zapper that was controlled by a photo-electric cell and ran it from
    early spring to mid fall, and did find that as the years went on, I was
    able to stay out later and later and not be bug din-din.
    
    Eric

    
      I have one that we use by the pool. I use it more to attract bugs
    away from the pool area than to try and reduce the herd. I figure with 
    the average umpty scoop trillion bugs that inhabit any sq. mile of this
    planet, my zapper does little to reduce the population. When the zapper
    is off in the evening you can't even sit outside w/o getting eaten
    alive. Turn on the zapper and there is some annoyance but it is very
    light as compared to what it is w/o the zapper on. I don't much care
    whether or not I am killing some beneficial bug or not, I figure they
    will all evolve into something nasty someday, so why not get'em while
    I can. 8>) 

>    the average umpty scoop trillion bugs that inhabit any sq. mile of this

      I  have  read  or  heard (public television, maybe) that there are
      more insects in ANY square mile of land, anywhere on  Earth,  than
      there  are humans on the entire planet.  This included land in the
      Sahara as well as in Antarctica.

    
    The Dec. or Jan. Popular Science has a small blurb on a poster that was
    designed to show the relative representation of life forms on the
    planet, I believe in terms of mass. By far the largest group was the
    flying insects.
    
    I also seem to recall reading somewhere that the mass of _just_ spiders
    is larger than the mass of all humans.

	One of my neighbors had his trees sprayed for
	Gypsy Moth Caterpillars. The tree service used
	Malethion (spelling?) and it seems to do a good
	job. 

	   My question is, has anyone heard of this 
	pesticide? Are there any serious side effects
	from using it?

	  

		Thanks,

			Chris 

	Malathion is a pesticide that you can pick up anywhere you buy lawn
	and garden chemicals (like Liquid Sevin, Diazinon, etc.). 

	I haven't fully read the label on the bottle I just bought, but it's
	meant to be used to control various common critters.

	Roy

    
           I thought I read in the paper recently that this was 
       an "off" year for gypsy moths. Evidently they run in
       multi-year cycles and this year they're dormant. If your
       neighbor treated his trees this season he may have been
       throwing money at a non-existant problem. If anyone has
       better info please correct me.
    
    
                                              Steve

    The gypsy moth caterpillars are alive and well at MKO.  I typically
    have to brush a dozen or so off my car before I leave the lot.  And
    walking from the building to the car (and stepping on and around the
    beasts) is an experience I would just as soon not discuss.
    
    Chet

<           I thought I read in the paper recently that this was 
<       an "off" year for gypsy moths. Evidently they run in
<       multi-year cycles and this year they're dormant. If your
<       neighbor treated his trees this season he may have been
<       throwing money at a non-existant problem. If anyone has
<       better info please correct me.

    My personal observation is that Gypsy moths DO run in multi-year cycles, 
but the cycle in one location is not necessarily the same as the cycle in 
another not-to-distant location.  I believe Holden, Ma. had its worst year of
that cycle in 1985, but Oxford's worst infestation appeared to me to be the
following year. These 2 communities are only about 25 miles apart.

Al

We are on the upswing of the cycle.  Many of the caterpillars died last
year due to the very wet spring encouraging the virus which does them in,
but that isn't the case this year.  I've seen a few around my house in
Nashua; they'll be more obvious over the next few weeks.

Spraying doesn't necessarily help, unfortunately, and in some senses even
hurts.  Because they drift from tree to tree, hence the name "gypsy", even
if you kill them off your own tree, they'll get you from your neighbor's.
Also, spraying tends to damp down the cycle, so that instead of a number
of pretty-much problem-free years, they become a steady nusiance.

				Steve

    Well, in Westford, we seem to be having a bumper crop of the little
    beasties. My deck is covered every day with their droppings and my
    front lawn is covered with pieces of leaves. Their droppings sound like
    rain and they're covering my house. I only wish that they were natural
    enemies of mosquitoes or vice versa because if I'm not swatting at
    mosquitoes, I'm moving out of the way of the droppings from my trees.

Plenty in Harvard, too, second year in a row.

Please see note 3613 for a thorough discussion of preventing gypsy moth
caterpillars.

	Thanks for the information. My neighborhood also
	has a bumper crop. It's good to know that they
	surge in cyles and that we
	can look forward (hopefully) to a better season 
	next year.

	If I decide to spray I'll let you know if it
	works.

		Thanks very much,

			Chris

>
>Plenty in Harvard, too, second year in a row.
>

And just to support the point that the infestations are localized, we have
had them VERY bad in Bolton (near the Harvard line) for the past three
years. Last year was the worst with almost every tree cleaned off. I've
lost 3 large oaks, including about the only tree we had in the area
at the end of our driveway.

The good news is I've only seen a few stragglers this year.

						Mark

    Malathion is what our town (Hudson) sprays for mosquitoes, I believe. 
    At any rate, the stuff won't hurt most people, although my brother is
    extremely allergic to it.  I didn't know it was much help against gypsy
    moth caterpillars, but we really haven't had much toruble with them in
    our area except for that one miserable year when my poor neighbor was
    trying to paint his house.
    
    /Charlotte

Malathion is definitely not my first choice for controlling gypsy moths. It's
too non-specific: it'll kill too many "beneficial" insects besides the
caterpillars, with the possible consequence of throwing the little ecosystem in
your yard totally out of whack. It's also toxic to critters besides insects if
ingested in sufficient quantities.

Why not try spraying with Bt instead? You can buy it in a powder form and
dispense it from a hose-end sprayer. Kills caterpillars after they ingest it.

But don't wait too long to use Bt: I understand it doesn't work as well once
they caterpillars get large.

Brian