Conference 7.286::home_work

    How to unclog SET TUBs ?
    
    I have some settubs in the basement that are clogged up with
    paint and probably sawdust and I cant seem to unplug them.
    
    I have tried the following:
    
    Plunger...did bring up some debris but not enough !
    
    Two can of DRAINO and some plunger action.....no luck !
    
    Paint thinner......still sitting there !
    
    The problem was cause by my son cleaning his paint brushes in the
    set tub and not making sure it all washed away. That plus the fact
    that it is located next to a table saw and most likely a lot of
    sawdust and worked its way into the holes from brushes laying in
    dust before cleaning etc. as well as flying thru the air as it is
    used.
    
    The piping underneath has no plug at the U joint and the piece that
    connects into the U joint comes in horizontally and the SNAKE cant
    seem to get into it.....poor design for sure !
    
    Any ideas out there.....
    
    Thanks in advance for those who do contribute !
    
    Lloyd

Spag's sells some drain/pipe cleaner that has Sulfuric(?) acid in it,
that's supposed to clean any drain.....

    
    
    call roto routa.  it's worth it. 
    
    will cost you about $80.00.....
    

    re: .1
    
    Much to my dismay, Spag's USED to sell the killer acid drain unplugger.
    It had skulls and crossbones all over it, warnings displayed on every
    surface, and a notice on the wall behind it in the store. According to
    a guy in the plumbing department, someone bought some, spilled it on
    himself, and then threatened to sue Mr. Borgatti. 
    
    They said to try a plumber's supply house, since they wouldn't carry
    it anymore.
    
    -joet
    

    Thanks JOET you may have just saved me a trip from Natick to Worcester.
    
    Lloyd

    A modern dilema.   Yes, it's true.   After much discussion with
    the building inspector in Gardner, I found I could do all my own
    wiring, and I could call for the inspection myself.   However, (not
    a quote, as words from mouth, but a quote as content) "only licensed
    plumber can call for an inspection".   I interpreted this to mean
    that if you could find some sucker, I mean, plumber, who would let
    you do the work and then call the building inspector for the
    inspection, you could do it yourself.   No sane plumber would do
    this.   It's called "borrowing the license" and, aside from probably
    being illegal, opens up said plumber to a law suit should anything
    happen in the future.   I'm reasonably angry about the situation
    myself.   I can electrocute myself (a reasonably  quick and sudden
    end) but I can't drown.   It doesn't make any sense, other than
    as a long-standing obsession by the beurocracy (sp) in this state
    to preserve plumber's unions.   I've done both plumbing and electrical
    work.   In fact, the plumbing I did was with cast iron, oakum and
    lead.   Lots harder than this plastic stuff you can use now.   The
    only concern, as I understand it, is for proper ventillation.  
    I fail to understand what the black art is (I would have put the
    vents in exactly the same place that the plumber did.)   And, he
    is charging me ~$3000 for two baths, including fixtures;  I figure
    he's getting about $2000 for three solid days' work.    It's a rip
    off, and DIY'ers should argue that passing inspection is all that
    matters.   I gave up.

    
    Yes, it's true.  It's even been discussed in this file somewhere
    else before.  In fact, in some towns, you can't do ANY of the work
    (eg: Sudbury.)
    
    
    One interesting note.  A plumber working at a friends house told
    him that if you have a degree in Mechanical, Electrical, or some
    other Engineering (I can't remember which one) that you can apply
    and take the Journeymans (I think) electricians and plumbers test!
    
    
    Does anyone know where I could find this out?  If so, I'd go for
    the licence!

    
    -bill

    I am also disgusted about not legally being able to do plumbing in this
    lousy state.  It seems to me that anyone should be allowed to do
    anything as long as it will meet whatever code and of course pass
    the required inspection.  And of course I would even be willing
    to pay for the inspection. Just curious, does anyone know if one
    is allowed to do their own plumbing in the "LIVE FREE OR DIE" state
    (NH)?

    
    I hope so, 'cause I've been doing my own plumbing and electrical.
    	
    
    						.dave.

    Does the same hold true for NH? I mean having to have an electrician
    or plumber do all work? 
    
    Gary

    Others have already replied with the bad news that DIY plumbing
    is illegal in MA and it is true. My brother installed a solar hot
    water heater, but had to pay a plumber to connect the solar system
    to his house water system. The rational was that my brother could
    have screwed it up and thereby contaminated the drinking water.
    He was very lucky to find a plumber who would do just the connection
    rather than the whole job.
                              
    What's more annoying to me, is that in many towns in MA, you can not 
    do any DIY electrical work. I can not install a flood light over the
    deck I built? B.S.!       
               
    The bottom line is that DIY plumbing work is illegal in all towns
    and DIY electrical work is illegal in many towns, -- all due (in
    my highly emotional opinion) to the strangle hold the trade unions 
    have over state and local governments.               
    

    	I've never heard that you can't do your own plumbing or electrical
    in NH,however after I resheetrocked and insulated my house I heard
    that I should have gotten a building permit for the insides. None
    of the plumbers or electricians have ever said anything either.
    	Also I remember a story of a guy who couldn't get a building
    permit because he was going to tear down the existing structure
    and build a new house in it's place. He ended up gutting the insides
    of the house and building a house inside of the existing structure
    and then took the outsides down. The town really loved that!
                                                                   
    "Live free or die" Forever!
    

    
        I also believe you should be able to do your own work if you
    chose so. the laws agianst this   are the results of unions and
    are totally uncalled for! I 've seen some pretty bum jobs done by
    so-called plumbers or electricians. in the past  i have always done
    my own work and i will continue to do so. I can do just as good
    a job as some overpriced tradesman. people should start uniting
    on issues such as this! 
    
                       Flame on!

Electrical: I have heard cases where the town has refused to inspect wiring
done by a DIY in Mass cause they said they would not allow it.  The homeowner
called the state and got a state inspector to pressure the town into 
inspecting or the state inspector would do it.  I think the state law says
that for an owner occupied house you can do your own electrical so long
as it is inspected.  I am not sure if the town has the right to deny
inspection if the state says you can do it.  Who knows for sure?

I do know that local town inspectors do not like to inspect DIYs because
it puts the onus on the inspector to make sure the job is done correctly.
If he fails to find a fault in the wiring and say your house burns down
then he could he held liable for having approved a faulty installation.
If a licensed electrician did the work then there is someone else to blame -
which makes the inspectors job "easier".

As for plumbing that's just a big ripoff.  I would guess that much indoor
plumbing gets done without building permits because of this foolish
restriction.  Such rules are a testament to the stupidity of legislators
and their weakness when it comes to being manipulated by strong lobbies.

The bottom line is if you can do the job as well as a "professional"
(and I use that word loosely these days) then you should be able to do
the job yourself.  The bottom line is that it should make no difference
who does the job - only whether the job it done right.

    Re: .9:   Yes - I agree that anyone who can do the job and pass
    the inspection (meaning, of course, that the work adheres to the
    existing building codes) should be allowed to do the work him(her)self.
    
    Glad to see that others believe that the unions are to blame.  
    I never thought of getting the license.   Given some of the plumbers
    I've seen, it can't be too tough.
    
    1:   What day is payday:
    	a.  Thursday
    	b.  Thursday
    	c.  Thursday
    
    2:	What direction does s**t run:
    	a.  Down hill
    	b.  Down hill
        c.  Down hill

    There are, of course, study guides available at your neighborhood
    bookstore.
        
    :-)
    
    Now watch, some ex-plumber will jump in.  Sorry.   I do understand
    that not everyone can do it, but like I said - it ain't all that
    difficult, and as long as it passes inspection, what difference
    does it make who does it?

    Strictly speaking, I think it's illegal for a homeowner to even
    change a faucet washer in Massachusetts...totally ridiculous.
    
    Steve

     Although I live in Vermont, where building codes seem to be
     next to non-existent except in some towns, I can sympathize
     with the plight of DIY'ers in MA and elsewhere.

     When we moved into our new house three years ago we had all
     sorts of problems when we turned things on.  Almost every
     faucet leaked, no water at all from one faucet and the shower
     didn't work. 

     There were several lights which, when turned on,	immediately
     blew breakers.  And, best of all, one of the baseboard heaters
     was wired so it was always on (We moved in in the middle of 
     August).  And I love the circuit layout.  It's incredible.
     Lights or outlets in one part of the house on the same circuit 
     with something completely unrelated on the othe side of the house.

     I had an unfinished room, and both the plumber and electrician told
     me they'd be glad to come back and do the work.  Yeah, sure.

    I had a friend in Marlboro MA who had a plumber install a gas water
    heater and furnace.  The town plumbering inspector gave the job
    his blessing and then the gas company came out and gave it their
    blessing and the next morning he wakes up smelling gas.  Also some
    of the water pipes that the plumber played with had a slight drip.
    He fixed the water leak himself and I can't remember whether he
    also fixed the gas leak.  So much for the wonderful plumbing gods..

    Does anyone know what the consequences of DYI plumbing and electrical
    are? I mean, in reality, how will they ever know something was done.
    I replaced alot of old piping and wiring in my place, but never
    had it inspected. As a matter of fact I replaced my hot water heater
    and did the plumbing myself, but had an electrician hook it up.
    It would be interesting to know if someone could screw up the insurance
    because of this.
    
    Mark

It depends on the town.  In southern NH they're starting to be influenced by 
their southern neighbors.  I'm pretty sure though that you can do work on your 
own house (that you are living in) anywhere in NH.  In some southern towns, you 
can't do the work on new construction (even if it's your own house you are 
building).  Further north, however, they don't care at all.  

Paul

    Re: .14:   Insurance is exactly the reason.   You could get severely
    depressed if you do your own wiring, don't have it inspected, and then
    have an electrical fire.   The reason I got for plumbing was that
    improper venting could result in accumulations of sewer gas, resulting
    in asphyxiation or explosions.   It is this reason that DIYers often
    get better inspections than a professional will get, and why the
    inspections of professionals' work often overlook deficiencies - the
    inspector's job (or town's budget) is on the line for a DIYer, the
    contractor for the professional.   The electrical inspector went
    over my wiring with a fine-toothed comb.   I never saw an electrical
    inspector look that closely at any contractors' work. 

    Well if they are afraid of the sewer gas problem then they should
    at the very least allow one to run their own water pipes.  I know
    they are afraid that a pipe will leak and fill up the basement and
    someone will fall into it and drown.

    Actually, with water they're concerned about contaminants entering
    the potable water supply.   This can be a problem that affects more
    than just you for common (e.g., town) water systems.   When I lived
    in Colorado Springs, and installed my own underground sprinkler
    system this concern was echoed by the requirement for anti-siphon
    valves.
    
    The big joke about this whole thing is that anyone with any common
    sense knows about these problems.   If the work passes inspection,
    what difference does it make who does it?

    Oh yeah.   There is one "plumbing" kind of task you CAN do yourself.
    You can install your own forced hot water heating system, i.e.,
    a second "zone".   I doubt you can install the boiler.
    
    Welcome to Taxachusetts, the only place in the world that requires
    a permit to blow your nose.
    
    I needed permits for the following:
    	1.   Construction (framing)
    	2.   Electrical
    	3.   Plumbing
        4.   Wood stove
    
    Each has their own inspector.   Note that the average permit cost
    $3.50.   They *can't* be making any money on this.   Why bother?

    Given that DIY electrical and plumbing is done strictly to code,
    I agree with the assertion that a homeowner should be allowed to
    do it him/herself.  However (having worked as a general contractor)
    this is definitely one of these "a little knowledge is a dangerous
    thing areas". The national electrical code and the uniform plumbing
    code are not an evening's reading.  Because of the apparent ease
    of hooking together readily available components and getting them
    to work, many DIYers never even look at the code.  The areas I saw
    most frequent violations in were conductor/box loading and grounding
    of submain circuits (electrical), and venting of drains (plumbing).
    A potential for disaster exists in any situation where the above
    is not done to code.
    
    

 Given that MA DIYers have their hands tied by bureaucracy, does
anyone know what the process is for becoming a licensed plumber
or electrician in the state of MA. I know there are tests involved,
but what code books do they cover, how often are they given, do
you have to spend time as an apprentice, etc ? 

 Becoming "licensed" may be one way to beat the system ... and give
you the potential for some income on the side...

First of all allow me to say having your work inspected means nothing!  I
leagally installed several circuits that I then had inspected.  The inspector
looked at the outlet boxes but never even went into the cellar to see how I
hooked into the fuse box.  So much for details.

As far as how someone can tell who did the work, I don't think they can.  When
I put on an addition, it was hard to hide the fact that new circuits were added
and I got a permit.  If one adds an extra outlet or two or even ties in a couple
of extra circuits, how could anyone ever tell that it wasn't part of the 
original wiring job?

-mark

    Re: .-2	I asked about licensing in note 286 and nobody really
    		knew the answer.
    
    -al

Re: .20

You're right.  This notes file is itself enough evidence that a lot of 
DIYers should be called screw-it-yourselfers (see war stories note).

The problem is that Massachusetts is being dumb too.  In North 
Carolina, my brother was able to do his own wiring and plumbing, but 
only after passing a non-trivial test based on the national and local 
codes.  He felt better, they felt better, and, surprise, the work 
probably was done better.  Massatwoshits (as my boss in the Air Force 
used to call it) in its infinite wisdom, instead outlaws plumbing so 
that rather than getting it done right, the average homeowner simply 
does what seems like the right thing to do at the time (...) and never 
dares say anything to anyone.  This state still needs to learn that 
passing a law does not necessarily make something right happen.  I'd 
hate to see what is going on uninspected...

Alex

re: 24

You have to understand that this state lives to pass laws "protecting
its citizens"

Slogan for new mass license plates "Live free or in Massachusetts"

Sorry, I could not resist.

I live in Boylston, where they don't fluorinate, chlorinate or
otherwise treat the water.  Its great to drink (high mineral content)
lousy for water heaters (high corrosive mineral content) and leaves
green copper stains all over my fiberglas bathtub, ceramic sink,
plastic ultrasonic humidifier, etc. 

What takes these stains out?
					thanx/j

    Try Gel-Gol/Glaze?, comes in a pink can, great for fiberglass anything.
    You may also try Rust Raise, sold at most plumbing stores.
    

    Try bleach.  Put it in a spray bottle and spray it on the copper
    stain in your tub or sink.  It should disappear.  Do this like once
    a month.  
    
    Make sure not to leave the bleach in the spray bottle because next
    month the bottle won't spray or at least mine didn't.
    
    Judie
    
    

    My wife said that I had no idea what I was doing.....but........
    the service man at Hudson Appl. came out to work on the dishwasher
    and I asked the same question.    His answer......
    
    TANG [the breakfast drink] empty the dishwasher, fill the soap tray
    with TANG and let it run thru the cycle.
    
    It works and now I use it as a cleaner also in the bathroom.
    
    Howard

    Try plain, cheap, easy to find vinegar. I had green staining and
    a friend suggested the vinegar route. Took off some very heavy
    stains very quickly and easily. Easier on you nose than bleach,
    less wacky than Tang........
    
    Tip of the hat to sally at HEADS::OSBORN for the vinegar trick......
    
    Vic

Sorry - tried vinegar long ago - these are top-quality, extra-macho
copper stains.  I have found many chemicals that induce some fading, 
none that remove.  (though I am tempted to give Tang a try)

Keep those cards and letters coming!
					/j

    My wife uses the trick of putting a layer of paper towel over the
    stain when soaking with bleach. It tends to keep the area "wet"
    for a longer period of time so the chemical reaction can take place.
    
    Nick

    What's in Tang that makes it clean brown sticky come off?
    
    And it's supposed to be safe to drink also?!  Must do a good
    job on your gastro-intestinal system....
    
    -al

    RE: .8
    
    You must be getting those brown deposits on your white dishes too.  Can
    I use Tang to take them off the dishes? 
    
    - Vikas

    
    My stoneware dishes didn't get stained... I guess the surface
    isn't porous enough.  I do, however, have some beige melanine
    (melamine??  I don't know how to spell it... it's a hard plastic)
    bowls that were stained quite badly.  I was thinking of running
    them through with the Tang tonight to see what happens.   If the
    the bowls get wrecked (unlikely), they're cheap enough to re-
    place...
    
    Re:  .11   Tang is in powder form.  If anyone's interested, I
               can post the exact ingredients tomorrow...  I believe
               there's more in it than .10 (?) stated...
    
    Re:  . 9   When I opened the dishwasher and saw how incredibly
               well it worked, my stomach tightened... I practically
               LIVED on Tang as a kid... sigh...
    
    

Another vote for TANG in the dishwasher.  Mine was really badly 
stained, so it took 1/2 bottle.  But now its BRIGHT WHITE.
(Can't wait to see how it works on my fiberglass green-stained bathtub 
- results to be posted)


PS..any clues on how to to a bathtub - should I make a TANG 'paste' 
and lay it down, use it like AJAX?  or .../j

    
    I wonder if the manufacturers of Tang realize the "industrial
    cleaning strength" they package into each jar... 
    
    Re:  .14   I'd try a teeny amount of "paste" on one little
               spot and see how it works.  We know it works inside
               a dishwasher (where there's LOTS of heat)... I wonder
               if the heat has any bearing on it's cleaning ability...
    
    

    a long-forgotten bit of chemical trivia surfaces as I read...
    
    citric acid chelates iron - so I'd guess that's the basis for Tang's
    effectiveness as a dishwasher cleaner.
    
    wonder if lemon juice concentrate would also work?  or straight
    citric acid if you can find it, maybe at a drugstore?  might be
    more cost-effective if it's going to become SOP.

I am sure there are other things in Tang besides those I mentioned. I suspect 
they (the ones I listed) comprise most of the product.

    
    Scott...
    
    I didn't mean to imply that you were wrong... I just meant
    there is something with a chemical-sounding name (like .16
    alluded to...) that I couldn't remember.  I was going to
    post the exact ingredients so someone could possibly pin-
    point it for me/us...
    
    Donna
    

    The citric acid is the main ingredient that performs the cleaning.
    If you can find lemon-aide without the pulp, it will work as well.
    We used to use squeezed, strained lemon juice to clean our bath
    tub of water stains when I was growing up.  Concentrated lemon juice
    would probably work as well and is already in liquid form.
    
    	A small amount of biological trivia:  
    	What does the digestion of food in your stomach?
    
    If you know the answer to the above question, you should know that
    the low level of acid in Tang or ???? is of no detriment to your
    body.

    
    Here's the ingredient list ("Tang Breakfast Beverage Crystals"):
    
    "Ingredients:  Sugar, Citric Acid (for tartness), Potassium 
    Citrate (regulates tartness), Maltodextrin (from Corn), Vitamin 
    C, Orange Juice Solids, monocalcium phosphate (regulates tartness), 
    Artificial Color (Including Yellow 5), Natura Orange Flavor, Xanthan 
    and Cellulose Gums (Provide Body), Artificial Flavor, Vitamin A
    Palmitate, Folic Acid, BHA and Alpha-Tocopherol (Preservatives)."

    There's a note on the label:
    
    "Any questions or comments on Tang?  Call toll free, Monday
    through Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., 1-800-431-1002."
    
    I'm tempted...!
    
    donna
    

If you do, be sure to post their comments.

Ummmmmm. Yum. Makes me want to run to the store for a jar... to put in my 
appliances.

Well, with posting this note I guess went the responsibility of
calling the 'tang' hot line (see .20).  The answer 

"Tang is primarily meant to be used as a beverage.  We have no
information on other uses.  But feel free to experiment" 

    
    Jeff...  What did you ask them?  Did you ask them if
    Tang had any household uses (other than the obvious...),
    or did you TELL them people are using it to remove
    "stubborn stains" from household appliances and fixtures?
    
    Just curious what you said/asked...
    
    Donna_who_procrastinated_too_long_and_let_someone_beat_me_to_calling_
          the_toll_free_number...
    
    

    As the author of .3 {TANG} I'd like to say that the laughter at
    the plumbing house that my wife works at was intense. But they tried
    it and are now going to issue jars of TANG with each tool kit.
    
    Howard

    Venting an Island Kitchen Sink
    
    I am in a quandry. We plan to move our kitchen onto an island area
    of our kitchen. Besides meeting code requirements, the drainage
    will flow better if the drain is vented. Problem is, then, how do
    you vent an island sink location. The new location is more than
    10 feet away from the current location.
    
    Any suggestions from folks that has done this? 
                                           
    Please reply in this note or mail replies to CLOSUS::HOE.
    
    thanks
    
    /cal hoe

    
    
    
    You can use an adapter which screw on the PVC with the proper bushing.
    The one I used is called PRO-VENT and available in any hardware
    store that carries a good supply of plumbing.  It goes for about
    $5.00.  This device can suck air into the pipe but the air/smell
    can't come out.
    
    

I don't understand the kind of vent are you talking about.  My sink 
doesn't have any vent (and I know because when I took out the old one 
and put in the new was there wasn't any).  The only type of venting I'm 
familiar with is the stack that goes from the basement to the roof.  
This type of vent is independent of were the sink is located.

In fact, in my last house we turned our sink into an island sink and 
didn't do any special venting for that either.  We lived there over 5 
years and never had any problems with that one either.

-mark

    I believe that in massachusetts all drains have to be vented up
    thru the roof.  That's the vent he's talking about.
    

    	I believe that the type of vent is called an in-line vent. I
    	just put one in my kitchen after moving my sink. My setup is
        somthing like this:
    
    				---
                                | | (Inline vent under sink)
                                |-|
                                | |
                  | |           | |
                  | |__________ | |
          Sink    | |___________| | 
          drain                 | |
        (trap not shown)        | | (to main)
                         
    
    	I have heard that the use of these depends on the plumbing
    	inspector in your town. Mine works great (no way I could vent
    	thru the roof). 
    
    	Hope this helps...
    
    			Steve
    

    Plumbing codes specify that all waste pipes must be open to atmospheric
    pressure within a very limited distance from each trap. This prevents
    a forceful flow elsewhere in the waste system from creating a partial
    vacuum that would suck the water out of the trap, thereby rendering
    the trap useless.
    
    The easiest way to meet the code is to cluster all fixtures, and
    their drains, close to the main waste stack, which extends up to
    the roof, and which is wide enough to guarantee that it is NEVER
    full of flowing waste, and thus that it is ALWAYS a suitable
    conduit for atmospheric pressure.
    
    If you start to move fixtures away from the main stack, you increase
    the possibility that a full flow of water down the fixture's drain,
    completely filling the length of pipe from the fixture's trap
    to the main stack, will be able to siphon the trap dry.

    There are two ways to eliminate this problem. The first is to supply
    a separate vent pipe for the distant fixture. This pipe connects
    th the drain pipe after the trap, and must also be extended throught
    the roof (difficult for an island sink).
    
    The second way is to increase the diameter of the pipe between the
    fixture's trap and the main stack. The small diameter of the
    drain and trap thus limits the flow of water so that the long run
    of pipe can never be full, eliminating the possibility of siphoning.
    This solution, however, has limits, which the applicable codes
    will clearly state. 

    I haven't seen the solution in .1 - more information would be
    appreciated.

    re .5
    
    Good information but the reasoning on the larger pipe in the last
    paragraph needs a little enhancement.  According to codes, Drain pipe 
    is supposed to slope 1/4 " per foot of run.  Also, according to
    codes, the crown weir(?) of the trap can not be above the bottom of
    the outlet for the pipe to avoid siphoning the trap dry.  This determines 
    the codes "critical distance" for locating a trap away from the main 
    column.  At 1/4" per foot, a 1 1/2" pipe allows you to locate the trap 
    6' from the main column (without requiring an additional vent).          
    Similarly, 2" pipe gives you 8' of distance without an additional vent.
    
    Kevin

    Thanks for the replies so far. I've checked out the PRO-Vent with
    the local inspector. He says it's illegal but it'll work most of
    the time. Problem is that one time that it doesn't work. 
    
    He mentioned that a "D" closed loop vent works and is legal. Any
    idea what he's talking about?
                                 
    /cal hoe

    I think he's talking about the same thing that I've heard called
    a re-vent.  It looks sort of like this:
    
    
    |   |
    | M |
    | a +-------------------------------+
    | i +-----------------------------+ |
    | n |                             |r|
    |   |                             |e|
    | S |                             |-|
    | t |                             |v|
    | a |                             |e|
    | c |                             |n|
    | k |                             |t|          | |
    |   |                             | +--------+ | |
    |   |                             | +------+ | | |
    |   |                             | |      | +-+ |
    |   |                             | |      +-----+
    |   |                             | |
    |   +-----------------------------+ |
    |            drain                  |
    |   +-------------------------------+
    |   |
    |   |
    
    I'm not sure that it solves your problem though.
    
    Another thing you might have to check is the type of trap you are
    allowed to have.  Some places only allow P traps (what I've drawn
    above), others will allow S traps as well (which is what you would
    have if you didn't have the re-vent).
    
    Rich

However, unless I'm doing something wrong - TANG did not do much for
my fiberglass tub blue-green copper stains.  I tried soaking,
scrubbing, and setting a paste.  Oh well.   Maybe I'll give
concentrated lemon juice a try.   (I must admit though, I am certainly
improving the bathroom's scent :-). 

    I found a little more about the "D" vent. I'll try to draw it here.
    
    ____________________________________
    |   ______________________________  |                                
    |  |                             |  |
    |  |                             /  /
    |  |                            /  /
    |  |                           /  /
    |  |                          /  /
    |  |                         /  /
    |  |                        /  /
    |  |                       /  /
    |  |                      /  /
    |  |                     /  /
    |  |                    /  /
    |  |                   /  /
    |  |                  /  /
    |  |                 /  /
    |  |                /  /
    |  |               /  /
  --   |              /  /
  from |sink         /  /            this type of self vent is legal
  --   |            /  /                 kitchen island sinks.
    |  |           /  /
    |  |          /  /
    |  |         /  /
    |  |        /  /
    |  |       /  /
    |  |      /  /
    |  |     /  /
    |  |    /  /
    |  |   /  /
    |  |__/  /
    |       /
    |  |---/
    |  |
     to house main drain & vent
        
    /cal hoe                                                         

    Somewhere from the dim past I remember the recommendation of using
    a paste made of turpentine and salt to remove copper stains.  You
    were supposed to mix it up and slap it down and let it sit over
    night.  I've not had to use it myself, but I remember my mother saying 
    that it worked well on her porcelain on steel tub.
    
    	/roger

Hmmmmmmm - well, getting the stains off porcelain has never been a 
problem (any good bathroom cleaner seems to do it).  anyone seen this 
work on fiberglass or plastic (want to get it off my ultrasonic 
humidifier)

    Does anyone have any idea whether old plumbing and wiring has any
    value? I have about 30' of 2"" copper drain-pipe, a used sink, and
    a whole pile of old wiring (3/4" steel pipe encased). I know I could
    put an ad in the WantAdvertiser, but I'm wondering if there's a
    more convenient outlet for this stuff (other than the town dump).
    I'm sure the copper at least must be worth something. Do I call
    a plumbing supply? How about an amatuer jeweller?
    
    					-- Ram

    Look in the "Yellow Pages" under SCRAP.  There's dozens of companies
    that'll probably quote (per pound) prices over the phone.

    

    Yes, do as .1 suggests.  I take my scrap to Harvey and Sons in
    Westboro.  The last time I went (a year ago), they were paying
    38 cents/pound for copper.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    I plan to do some re-plumbing in my house later this year, and have
    a question concerning the pipe I'll be using.  I plan to replace
    the hot and cold water pipes (the existing pipes are old and some
    sections look like they were installed by the 3 stooges).  No waste
    pipes are involved.
    
    My question is, which is better plastic or copper?  I personally
    prefer copper, because I've worked with it before and find soldering
    it, etc. fairly easy do to my experience with it.  However, I'd
    like to get some opinions from those of you who've had a lot more
    experience than I.  (Any registered plumbers out there?)

    						Thanks,
    						Jack.
    

    Use copper, its worth the difference in costs and labor. Plastic
    is OK for drains but I wouldn't use it for supply lines throughout
    the house. I friend of mine used plastic throughout the house he
    recently built. Although I don't remember the specific reason why,
    he said he would never use plastic throughout his house again.
    

In some places (MI?) the code does not allow PVC pipe to be used for supply
lines, especially for drinking water because the PVC contaminates the water
to a slight degree which could be harmfull over years.

I'm not sure this is fact, but I seem to remember hearing this...

Jim.

    
    	When I was selling plumbing supplies, we found the PVC supply
    pipe caused more problems than they were suppose to solve.  Basically,
    on low pressure systems they would be alright, but if someone were
    in the city with 100 to 120psi water pressure, the pipe would almost
    always let go at a glued joint. (mostly on Hot water side)  We finally
    decided not to sell it under the guise of water supply pipe, and
    pushed copper all the time.  Even though the PVC pipe is rated for
    high pressure applications, our experience showed it didn't hold
    up.
    	Personally, I'd stick with the copper pipe.
    
    	Jon
    

    
    
    There's a plastic flexible pipe available by Quest called polybutylene
    that's good for both hot and cold water, is advertised not to burst
    if your pipes got frozen, connects to any existing copper, cpvc, or
    galvanized iron pipe and is available in 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4" sizes.
    You cut it with a knife and the connectors are pressure fit so there
    isn't a need for gluing or soldering. We plummed my brother in laws
    house in N.H. with it 2 years ago and he hasn't had a problem with
    it yet. I plummed my new bath and my wife connected all the joints
    with no problems. It's very flexable and is easily fished in, out,
    and around walls, very easy to work with. 
    
    wayne
    

    
    re -.4 
    Forgot to mention that I have seen the polybutylene pipe in Mass.
    only at Grossmans. For a 50' section of 1/2" it costs $17.99. The
    connectors vary from about $1.50 for a simple connector to $7 a shut
    off valve.
    

    Re. Polybutyl
    
    	I got a 100' roll at Summerville in Westboro for $19.99 (1/2").  
    The connectors aren't cheap but if you buy it by the roll you can 
    minimize the number of these as opposed to buying the 10' precut 
    lengths.
    
    	BTW - Considering the fact that I'm not yet done with my DIY
    project I can attest to the fact that it will withstand freezing
    temperatures.  (Happened twice in the last week.  Guess who's finishing
    insulation this weekend! :-)..)
    
    						Lee

     I second the vote for polybt... I used it my kitchen & bath 3 years
    ago and I have'nt had a problem yet! (k.o.w.) I just connected it
    to the copper that was run up through the cellar, and put the other
    connector to the new fixtures.
                                               /BB
    

    Spag's carries the Quest brand connectors.  I don't know about the
    pipe though.  I used the connectors in the kitchen and bathroom
    added to the existing copper pipe and found it very easy.  The best
    thing going for us novice plumbers.

    A stupid question here:
    
    We are making plans for building a pole barn later in the spring.
    Electricity and water supplies in the barn would be a very fine
    thing.  I don't know the minimum depth for burying wire, but I doubt
    that it's deeper than the water pipe.
    
    The question is this: would the polybutyl tubing y'all have been
    praising be just the ticket for this application?  Would its resistance
    to freezing damage not be a plus, especially considering that our
    choice is to run the damned pipe through the concrete floor, or
    through an above-grade wall and then into the ground?
    
    Should this be moved to be a note of its own?
    
    Many thanks,
    Dick
    

	re .9

	Are you talking the feed from your house to the barn?  If so,
	I would just go with black plastic.  It's durable and flexable
	as well as cheap.  Also comes in million foot rolls (slight
	exageration).

	-gary

    .10, .9:
    
    Yes, what we'll want will be a pipe running to the barn, with one
    or possibly 2 spigots on/in the barn.
    
    Black plastic?  Doesn't ring a bell -- can you give more info?
    
    We're lucky to have an alternative, in the form of a spring about
    20 feet from the most likely barn site (if the water tests OK).
    
    Dick
    

	Black plastic pipe is what I used to go from my well to the
	house.  It comes in rolls of several hundred feet if you want
	it.  You can also buy it by the foot.  It comes in 1" diameter
	as well as 1 1/4".  Most building supply store carry it here
	in VT.  They also sell fittings and such to connect to your
	existing plumbing.  

	I'm not sure what type of plastic it actually is, polybytyl or 
	what.

	My well is 300+ feet from my house and the materials to run
	the line were almost nil.

	-gary

    Hello,
    	   My condo is on third floor (I just bought it 6 months ago)
    and the condo-owner directly underneath tells me she can hear water
    dripping between the walls in her bathroom .. (not very consistently)
    either after I flush the toilet or after I use the sink.. she is
    not sure. This worries me because, I would like to get it fixed
    before it gets worse... and calling a plumber without knowing what
    the problem is sounds very scary. As far as I can see, everything seems
    dry in my bathroom.. Any ideas on how I can make any progress trying
    to identify the problem and/or suggestions on plumbers who will
    not take advantage of my ignorance... (I live in South Nashua)

    Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
    
    Murali

Sounds like a problem for your association - In fact - if the problem 
is in what is considered 'common' plumbing (maintained by the 
association rather than the unit owner) you could incur non-refundable 
costs by trying to fix it yourself rather than letting them do it.  
Why not call and find out?

There is a good chance that there is no problem at all, I would guess.  If 
there is a vertical waste line running through that wall, you could easily
hear dripping just from water trickling down the inside of the pipe.  

    Hi,
    
    DEFINITELY call your condo association and let them know. Let them
    come out and inspect the problem, and if they find something wrong
    they usually have a plumber that is very familiar with the plumbing
    of your building. If there is nothing wrong (re .-1) then nothing
    is lost (i.e. the assoc. won't charge you for checking it out).

    
    -cjm

GENOVA style 1/2" PVC pipe is rated for 200psi at 180f and 400psi at 73f
for home plumbing use.  I recently redid the entire plumbing system in
my house with this type with no major problems.  With PVC you have to make
super-sure the joints are clean, and well glued.  And wait at least 6 -
12 hours before using the pipes, to allow for the glue to settle completely.

And the pipe is EPA certified, as is the QUEST brand.

    Then there is the minor problem we found in our house -
    
    	Water leak seen in basement, apparently coming from the bathroom.
    	Seemingly occurred intermittently from the tub.
    
    	One day, my wife was washing the tub, I was in the basement,
    	under the tub area; getting allll wet.  Turned out the OVERFLOW
    	drain pipe was not properly sealed.  You may have something
    	like that as well.   

:-)

We had just the opposite situation.  The plumber came to check
the tub leak, found the the drain was not properly sealed, fixed
that ($20).  Then he filled the tub with water to check his work
and found that the overflow relief didn't.  He promptly removed
the sealant which had been enthusiastically applied behind the
cover plate (no charge). 

I'm happy to report that was one bathtub and plumbing system ago!

    
    Just wanted to say we tried the "Tang" trick on our dishwasher...we
    also put in all of our stained stoneware dishes.  With just one
    washing our dishwasher is clean, and so are our dishes!  Amazing!

    Can someone supply a brand name for "plumbers putty" Can silicone
    caulk be used to seal the drain flange in a newly installed sink?
    
    	Steve
    

    No brand name for plumbers putty is necessary.  Just go to
    the store and say "I need some plumber's putty" and they'll
    know exactly what you mean.  I have never noticed any quality
    differences between manufacturers.
    
    I suppose silicon can be used, but I've always heard of people
    using plumber's putty.
    
    -al

    I've used both. The silicone caulk was just as effective, and easier
    to use.

    Ok I've found some. Thanks for your replies.
    
    	Steve

    	I've checked existing plumbing notes to no avail so here goes.
    
	I am planning to replace most of the waste pipe in my parents 70(?)
	year old house.  They have a combination of old iron pipe, galvanized
	pipe and PVC from remodeling 15-20 years ago.  All of the drain
	system is exposed in the basement so its easy to get at.  I should
	also mention I've never worked with PVC before.

	What needs to be done:

	1. Replace line and trap from tub to main line (10 feet).

	2. Replace line from kitchen sink to main line (15-20 feet).

	3. Replace main line.  Tying in new and old PVC plumbing (20 feet).

	4. Replace vent line. (more later on this)

	My questions are:

	1. How do I connect PVC to the existing tub fixture and kitchen sink
	   drain (copper)?

	2. Will I have a problem connecting the old PVC to the new PVC?

	3. How do I connect the new PVC main to the iron pipe where it
	   leaves to house?

	4. The vent to this system goes from the main pipe to the chimney.
	   (above the furnace exhaust) I've never seen this before.  Is
	   this right??  If I keep this setup, I'm hesitate about putting
	   a PVC pipe in a chimney.

	5. What should the size and slope of the various pipes be?

	6. Am I crazy for trying?  Should this be left to a plumber?

	Thanks for any help.

	Phil
    

    

	1. How do I connect PVC to the existing tub fixture and kitchen sink
	   drain (copper)?

		Use a 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 (measure the old drain pipe) trap
    		adaptor.  Standard stuff.
    
    	2. Will I have a problem connecting the old PVC to the new PVC?

		No, if it's all schedule 40 (the most common) pipe.
		Look for something like "ASTM SCH 40" stamped on the
    		old pipe.  And buy sch 40 to match.  (The other possibility
    		is schedule 30, which has thinner walls and whose fixtures
    		are thus incompatible, since the inside diameter is
    		always the stated pipe size.    
    
    	3. How do I connect the new PVC main to the iron pipe where it
	   leaves to house?
		
		Use a hub adaptor with rubber sleeve/worm clamp.  Standard
    		stuff.
    
    	4. The vent to this system goes from the main pipe to the chimney.
    	   (above the furnace exhaust) I've never seen this before.  Is
	   this right??  If I keep this setup, I'm hesitate about putting
	   a PVC pipe in a chimney.

		This is illegal as stated.  Perhaps the vent pipe goes
                up the chimney in a separate chamber, in which case
    		there should be no problem.  (Sewer gas contains methane.
    		Need I say more).
    
	5. What should the size and slope of the various pipes be?

		Slope 1/4" per foot, all horizontal runs.
    
                Pipe size is a function of configuration.  If all fixtures
                go straight to the main stack, then 1-1/2 is fine (although
                2" is commonly used for kitchen sink drains).  However
    		if there are intermediate runs with more than one fixture
    		branching off then it gets more complicated.
                Toilets are always 3".

    	6. Am I crazy for trying?  Should this be left to a plumber?

		Hard to say.  Sounds like you don't know much but it's
    		not terribly hard to learn.  You should at least run
 		your proposed config by someone with some experience.
    		Strictly speaking you need a permit for this work, and
    		you should get it inspected.  The latter is advisable
   		for your own piece of mind when doing drainage plumbing
    		because mistakes can cause sewer gas in the house, which
		is very bad.

	Phil

    I didn't notice whether you were in Mass or not, but Mass requires
    the plumbing permit to be taken out by a plumber.  ANyway, a comment
    on point 6 (plumbing size):  What Jim said in .-1 is mostly correct,
    except that pipe size is also determined by the LENGTH of the run.
    I'll try and look up the exact numbers if you tell me you are in
    Mass, but I think around 8' is the break-point between 1 1/2 and
    2 inch for drains.  There is also a rule on having Clean Out traps
    when making 90 degree bends, but I cannot remember the exact details.
    
    Unless the legalities get in the way, you can do this yourself.
    
    -reed
    

    RE: .1,.2
    
    Yes, I'm in Mass. and know that a plumbing permit should be pulled
    by a plumber for the work.  But I also know that paying him $30
    an hour to glue pipes together is ridiculous.  I know more about
    drainage plumbing than I appear to in the base note, though.  I
    was basically going to duplicate the existing plumbing, only in
    sch 40 PVC.  I do know about the clean-outs.  I had to use one that
    is currently there to remove a blockage.  VERY important.  I also
    know that the traps are there to prevent sewer gases from coming
    back into the house.  I didn't know the exact slope of the pipes,
    just that they should be sloped.
    
    I guess my primary concern is the vent to the chimney.  I don't
    know if its in a seperate chamber within the chimney since I can't
    see in there.  The roof is too high and steep to get up on to look
    down.  The pipe has corroded and broken and when I tried to pull
    it out of the chimney, it wouldn't come out.  I'm puzzled.  It has
    been like this for umpteen years with no problem.  I suspect the
    house was retro-fitted with the drainage system.  Should a new vent
    be run?  This is a two story house and I'm not sure if this can
    be done without tearing out walls (which is NOT a possibility).
    
    Should I know anything else before trying this?

    re .2
    Drain pipe should slope at 1/4" per foot;  The connection to the
    main stack for an unvented run should not be below the top of the 
    trap to prevent siphoning the trap dry;  2" pipe allows 8' of length
    (2" / 1/4" = 8); 1 1/2" allows 6'.
    
     

    re .5

>    Drain pipe should slope at 1/4" per foot;  The connection to the
>    main stack for an unvented run should not be below the top of the 
>    trap to prevent siphoning the trap dry;


    There are currently drum traps thoughout the system.  I don't see
    how those could be siphoned dry.  I don't understand what you mean.
    How could the connection NOT be below the top of the trap???

    Years ago the "S" trap was very common. Today the "P" trap is used more
    (the "S" trap may even be illegal in some areas). I think the changes
    are due to the fact the "S" trap could be more prone to being siphoned
    dry under certain conditions. 

    Notice how the drain on the "S" trap is below the "trap" part itself.
    Water rushing down the drain could pull the water out of the trap. The
    "P" trap drains more slowly so that the water "flows" down the drain. 

       *                 *
       *                 *
       *    * *          *
       *   *   *         *    * * * * * * *  
       *   *   *         *   *
       *   *   *         *   *
        * *    *          * *
               * 
    "S" trap   *            "P" trap
               *
    
    Charly

    re .6
    The official terminology (I believe) is that the connection cannot 
    be below the crown weir of the trap.  Roughly translated, that means
    that the bottom of the pipe where the pipe exits the trap
    (horizontally) cannot be above the top of the pipe where it enters
    the stack (in an unvented run). 
    
                                         

    This business of "critical distance" is well explained in the Time-Life
    DIY book on Plumbing.  Check your library
    
    For  the most part, sinks will have vent pipes in the wall very
    close to the trap
    
    
    					to the roof
    					    *
    					    *
    		    basin		    *
    		|             |             *
    		|	      |             *
    		|_____   _____|		    *
    		       *		    *
    		       *		    *
    		       *      * * * * * * * *
    		       *    *               *
    		       *    *               *
    			* *                 *
    					to the sewer


     The idea is that the water flowing down the pipe to the sewer/septic
    tank has to be replaced by air.  Where is the air to come from?
    Either down the vent pipe from the roof, or down the plug-hole from
    the wash-basin.  If the latter, it will suck the water out of the
    trap.
    
    So the trick is to make sure that there is nver enough suction in
    the pipe to empty the trap.  You can work this out for yourself
    by measuring the trap and the vertical drop to the place where the
    vent is, but the plumbing code does it for you.
    
    I woried about this when we moved the washing machine from one side
    of teh room to the other.  Connecting a new drain was no problem,
    since the pipes were all exposed in the crawl space, but running
    a new vent above the new position of the washer would have been
    hard.  Fortunately, we didn't have to. 
    
    Going back to the original query, the main problem seems to be the
    vent pipe in the chimney.
    
    If there is a spearate and otherwise unused flue with the pipe in
    it, then you can just replace the pipe.  Someplace you have to put
    hangers on it, though: the things that support the wight of the
    pipe.   Otherwise, you may well find that there is a space between
    the brick of the chimney and the drywall that is big enough to drop
    a pipe through.  Now, this space is meant for fire protection, and
    I don't know what the code says: I would guess that you could use
    metal pipe there, but maybe not plastic.
    
    In general, I don't see how you can replace the exixting vent pipes
    with new ones without opening up a few walls here and there.
    
    

Disclaimer: The following technique works on enamel baths, but
            has not been tried on fibreglass models.

Your problem was to remove stains from a fibreglass bath. the
technique which I used was to put a few inches of water in a
washing-up bowl and mix in a quantity of a proprietary water 
softener. Stand the bowl in the bath, and run a thick 'ladder' 
of toilet paper from the bowl up to the tap, making sure the paper
covers the stained portion.  Leave for a couple of days and them 
remove.  

By keeping one end of the paper in the bowl osmosis will ensure that
the target area is kept wet.  Having forgotten most of my chemistry
I can't give you the proper explanation as to hwo this technique
works. The general principle is that of ion-concentration: i.e. the
'softened' water has had all the ions removed from it so the ions in
the stain will migrate to an area of liquid where the concentration
is less.

Give this a try unless you've found a solution already.

    Last night I noticed that my basement was flooded with water due
    to a cold water pipe leak.  
    
    I live in a townhouse condo and the broken pipe is common for a few 
    units; I can even shut the water off for a few of the units since there
    is a valve on the common pipe in my basement. 
    
    The plumber says the condo association should pay for the repair
    but, going by there tight budget and past record, they might not
    be willing to pay.  If the condo documents state that owners are
    liable to fix there own plumbing, would I have a case against
    the association since it is a common pipe?
    
    - Ted 
           
    

    	If they say it's YOUR pipe, fine, just shut the water off when
    your not using it and let THEM pay to install water pipes to the
    neighbors who are using YOUR pipe, bet ya the association takes
    another point of view real quick!!!! 
    
    
    
    					john
    

    
    Re: .0
    
    	Are you going to believe what the plumber says?  Has he read
    the condo's documents? :-)  Seriously, I'll say this for the zillionth
    time, it seems, -- your *documents* state what is and what is not
    covered by the Association.  If the Association has to cover it,
    but doesn't want to due to finances, you have grounds to sue them.
    
    	My bet -- based on condo experiences and *not* based on your
    documents -- is that since the pipe supplies water to more than
    one unit, it is considered "common property" and must be maintained
    by the Association.

    
    Re: .0
    
    	P.S. to the .2 reply...  (Sorry, forgot one point.)
    
    	If the documents say that the owners are responsible for fixing
    the pipe -- and if the documents are not ambiguous about the section
    of pipe it is talking about (i.e. a lot of documents state things like
    "utilities serving a single unit are the responsibility of that unit")
    then you must pay to have the pipe fixed if the problem is in an
    area defined as being under your responsibility to fix.
    
    	Again, though, my bet is that this is a common property pipe.

    2 points:
    
    1.  When the plumber is in to fix the pipe, try to be there along
    with a representative of the board.  Determining just *where* the
    leak is becomes very important in determining who pays for it.
    
    2.  If your association is reluctant to fix the problem, you may
    have to contract with the plumber yourself.  If it's determined
    that it's a common area problem and they still won't pay for, try
    to avoid suing if possible.  Try *really* hard to work it out, because
    you are in effect suing yourself and it will create more bad feelings.
    Whatever you do, do NOT try to handle the problem by withholding
    your condo fee.  It's not like a landlord/tenant relationship, if
    you withhold it, then the association can turn around and slap a
    lien on your unit.  In extreme cases, they can even sell it to recover
    the money owed to them.  Your only recourse for non action is a
    suit.
    
    From someone who's been on both sides of the fence, and my apologies
    if I'm telling you something you already know.
    
    John

    
    RE: .3
    
    	The documents are ambiguous.  They state something like " owners
    are responsible for plumbing in their own units".  Now, what if
    the broken pipe is common?  Can an owner be responsible for something
    that is common just because it's in his unit?
    
    	More about my problem though : The plumber determined the leak
    could not be fixed from only my unit, but he had to install a new
    pipe between my unit and my neighbors.  The old pipe was poorly installed
    and unsleeved when put through the concrete foundation!  He could
    not take it out, so he put a new 3/4 inch pipe through the 1 inch 
    and reconnected the piping in both my unit and my neighbors.  There
    was no loss of water preasure since I have 3/4 inch plumbing for
    all "my" pipes.  
    
    	Can anyone give me a good reason why I have to "foot" this $300
    plumbing bill?

    					- Ted 
    

    WOW!  $300 to replace a piece of pipe!
    
    Did this pipe feed any other unit?  I would think that's the test,
    not the actual location of the pipe.  Were the owners to either
    side of you affected?
    

    
    Re: .5
    
    >    The documents are ambigious.  They state something like " owners
    >are responsible for plumbing in their own units".  Now, what if
    >the broken pipe is common?  Can an owner be responsible for something
    >that is common just because it's in his unit?
    
    	Yes.  If there is not something else in the documents that negates
    the quote, the section of the documents that you quoted is *not* ambigious
    at all.  Two things to look for in the documents:
    
    	1)  Any statement to the effect that utilities serving multiple
    units are common, or,
    
    	2)  Look at the exact definition of what your "unit" is.  If
    your documents are like a lot of them, your unit is everything inside
    of the unfinished wall, floor and ceiling.  If this is the wording,
    the paint on the wall is yours, but the wallboard itself (and out)
    is common property.
    
    							-craig

                 
    Re: .6
    
    One reason why the bill was so high was because he spent some time on
    Tuesday trying to locate where the water can be turned off ( in
    the complex) and where he could get to the other side of the pipe.

    The plumber claims that the pipe was defective between the two units
    but only my unit got the water leak.  As I said, work was done in
    both units to solve the problem.
    
    What so you mean by "that's the test, and not the actual location
    of the pipe"?
    

    RE: .8
    
    What I was trying to find out was:
    
    If you had the plumber replace the broken pipe, and put in a shutoff
    valve, and you closed the valve, would somebody else's water be
    turned off as well as yours?
    
    But the correct determination can only be made by reading your
    documents.  Hopefully, without getting lawyers and judges  involved.
    With regular old fashioned houses, it's soooo simple.  They're ALL yours!

    
    Well, the condo Association did agree to pay for the plumbing 
    bill ( thank god ! ) but they want me to fix the window of the
    utility room, that I broke in order to get in the room and see
    if I could turn off the water.  I don't think I should fix the
    window but I'm going to do it anyway since I'm releaved that
    they are going to pay the plumbing bill.
    
    I'm going to suggest that they change the plumbing in the complex,
    so that everyone has a cutoff valve for their "own" water and
    have the wording changed in the condo documents such that it states 
    that owners are responsible for own plumbing starting from their 
    cuttoff valve.
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    
    						- Ted

    
>    I'm going to suggest that they change the plumbing in the complex,
>   so that everyone has a cutoff valve for their "own" water and
>   have the wording changed in the condo documents such that it states 
>   that owners are responsible for own plumbing starting from their 
>   cuttoff valve.
    
    I'm not a condo person or anything, but it seems to me you still
    don't have the concept right.  What you should have said is:
    
    "I'm going to suggest that we change the plumbing in the complex
    so that we each have a cutoff valve for our own water.  Then
    we can have the condo docs changed so it says we are each responsible
    for the plumbing from our cutoff valve in."
    
    I understand that what you propose will be easier for clarification,
    but you will have to get the whole complex to agree to have the
    conversion plumbing done (i.e. $$$$$).  It's probably cheaper to
    leave it the way it is, and just be better informed.
    
    Elaine

    I thought I'd rekindle this long dormant topic.  If I put in a 
    bathroom in my home and plumbed it myself to code, when would a
    building inspector ever have occasion to enter the premisis to see
    that I had not hired a plumber.

>        I thought I'd rekindle this long dormant topic.  If I put in a 
>    bathroom in my home and plumbed it myself to code, when would a
>    building inspector ever have occasion to enter the premisis to see
>    that I had not hired a plumber.

    It's ok to rekindle a topic that's been dormant for almost 2 days,
    but you set the discussion back about a year.
    
    To answer your question:  It's ok to do anything illegal as long
    as you don't get caught.
    If you don't pull a plumbing permit, the building inspector will
    most likely not know about it, never come in your house, and everything
    will be fine.
    
    If 2 years from now you add an addition and get a building
    permit, the inspector still won't care about the plumbing you did
    yourself because he's only inspecting the work you got the permit
    for.

    The town/city might/would find out about it, the next time that
    homes are reinspected for reappraisal.
    
    Consider another possibility.
    What if you have a neighbor who knows about the plumbing work, and
    feels that his home is being unfairly assessed vis a vis your home.
    (This assumes that the bathroom addition has not been reported to
    the town for assessment purposes for fear of running afoul of the
    plumbing inspector.)
    
    It is not unheard for neighbors to report such violations.
    
    Neither of these may be likely but...

    	re .28
    		When I started an addition last year some one called
    the inspector on me and my neighbor who was also doing an addition.
    I was home the day he came over and took a look around, he did not
    actually come and talk to me just stoped his car in my neighbor's
    drive and watch for a while. The next day both me and my neighbor
    got notes in our mailboxes say we needed building permits for the
    work we were doing. 
    		Luckally I had one but he couldn't find it in his records.
    My neighbor on the otherhand did not. Lucky for him he's a builder
    and new the inspecter well. The inspecter made him pay for a permit
    and then came and inspected the final work. He just wanted to make
    sure the town got its money.
    
    	Moral of the story: Neighbors are not always as friendly as
    they may seem.
    
    
    				...Dave
    

    My folks have a cottage in the Berkshires of Massachusetts and every
    year they have paid a plumber $40 to remove the pump from the basement
    and generally winterize the plumbing. When Spring comes around,
    it's another $40 to reverse the procedure. 
    
    This year we installed a new pumphouse next to the cottage. Rather
    than shell out all that cash every year, can anybody advise me what
    steps I should take to winterize the plumbing myself?  Thanks in
    advance.
    
    Dave

My father has a similar cottage, and he winterizes it himself.  The idea is,
whereever water is, drain it, because in the winter, it'll freeze, and break
any pipes/etc.

I'll try to remember all of what has to be done.

To winterize:

1) Turn off power to water pump and water heater.
2) Open all faucets, fixtures, etc.
3) Drain water pump, and water tanks.  You have to make sure ALL the water is
   out of the water pump, look at the pump to see where water may hide.
   My father put in a hydrant valve with a drain in the inlet pipe to the pump
   underground to make the draining of the inlet pipe easier.
4) Drain any local low spots in water pipes (my father put in special valves
   for this since the plumbing was installed with winterization in mind
5) Add enough anti-freeze to the drains so the water/anti-freeze mixture in the
   traps won't freeze. OR remove any drains you may have on the traps to let the
   water out.
6) Flush the toilet(s) until there is no water in the tank and very little in
   the bowl.  Add anti-freeze to the tank, enough so that it+the water in the
   bowl won't freeze.  Flush, allowing anti-freeze into the bowl. Make sure
   the antifreeze gets into the trap at the back of the bowl lest it freeze.
7) If the place has FHW heat, don't forget to drain that.

I'll enter the procedure to reverse this later, it's essentially just reversing
the above actions.

-Mike

Reply .1 did a great job of describing how to winterize your cottage. I have to
go through the same procedures for my RV trailer. Another point that I feel is 
important is the antifreeze. The type of antifreeze you need is the edible 
kind. What I mean by that, when you drain your pipes and pump in the spring, 
and some antifreeze is left behind and you inadvertently drank some, you'll 
be fine. DO NOT use the kind of antifreeze you would normally use in your 
car/truck, that is poisonous. The edible type of antifreeze can be bought at 
any plumbing supply house, or any RV store. I paid $3.99/gal for the 
antifreeze for my trailer. In fact, I have to winterize my trailer this 
coming weekend.

Dick

    RE: .1 
    
    Good recommendations except that you should not drain the traps. They
    should be filled with antifreeze as first suggested. Empty traps will
    allow sewer gas to enter the house. It will stink up the place and
    could cause a serious explosion. 
    
    - Rich 

re .2:

If you put any antifreeze in the waterpump, etc. definitely use the edible
antifreeze.  We only put it in sink traps and the toilet, so we only use the
automotive stuff, as we're not in the habit of drinking sink trap contents.

-Mike

    
    	I've used Windshield Washer fluid for anti-freeze. It works
    	great and it's cheap compared to $3.99/gal, especially if
    	you want to use the place on wekkends (skiing or ice fishing)
    	and carry in water to wash and flush.
    
    	Does anyone know of a problem using this stuff?????
    
    	Jim
    

re Note 1563.5 by PARITY::JRYAN:

>     	Does anyone know of a problem using this stuff?????
    
If you mean the ready-mix kind in gallon jugs, it isn't meant to be diluted for
working strength protection, so you need to replace essentially all of the
water in the things being protected, instead of just about a third to a half.

Bob

    Edible antifreeze?  You learn something new every day!
    
    Dick
    

    I have to use "edible" antifreeze in the lines of my pool.  What
    exactly is in this type of antifreeze?  
    
    BC
    

    Don't tell me... It's "Schnapps", aka Jewish antifreeze.
    
    Dave

    Some really cheap vodka?  Or, if you can get it, Everclear?
    
    The problem with automotive antifreeze, even in the drain pipes,
    is that it isn't so good for the environment.  
    
        					August G. Reinig

Let me see if I can clarify what I meant about edible antifreeze. When reading
the original note, and reply #1, I was under the impression that ALL pipes were
going to be winterized. That includes the water pipes. Now, edible antifreeze
is non-toxic. I know it sounds weird, but the container even had the word 
edible marked on it. If you had to winterized your water lines, and have to 
flush them out in the spring. Now comes the tricky part. If you did not flush 
all of the antifreeze out of the water lines, it will not harm you. Sure, it
will taste different, but not toxic like the antifreeze that you would use 
for your vehicle. 

On the point of using windshield washer solvent. The same applies as above. 
Have you ever notice that when it gets below freezing, your windshield washer 
solvent in your vehicle freezes ?? Well, I sure wouldn't want that to happen 
to my water pipes. 

Thanks for letting me get my .02 worth in.

Dick

    re. edible/non toxic antifreeze is made of vegetable oils.
    
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    	I've a few questions on leaky shutoff valves.
    
    1)	I have a shutoff valve that just doesn't shut the water off.
    	My guess is that the washer has disintegrated.  The question
    is, how do I tell if it was a flat or beveled washer if there isn't
    any thing left of it?
    
    2)	I have another shutoff valve that has a slow leak from the stem
    	that the handle turns to turn the water on or off.  Is it the
    packing that needs to be replaced?  If so, I've bought some packing
    material that looks like string (teflon coated asbestos - there
    was some graphite packing material but the string like filaments
    of it seemed very crumbly).  How much of this gets wrapped around
    the shaft.  Is there some sort of packing washer I should be using
    instead?
    
    3)	For future reference, to solder a shutoff into a copper supply
        line, do you remove the moving parts, solder it in the line,
    then reassemble the shut off?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    	-- Richard -- 

    re: 2)
    	First try tightening the packing nut.  That has always worked
    for me, so I've never replaced the packing.
    
    re: 3)
    	Leave it together, but open the valve before soldering.  Avoid
    overheating and don't use so much solder it flows into the valve
    seat.

    1) Go to a plumbing supply store and look at a similar valve.  Or
       buy both and try each. (they can't be too expensive)
    
    2) I dunno.
    
    3) yes.  It only takes 2 wrenches and 5 seconds to pull the valve.
       It also makes the soldering much easier.  One question though.
       Is the supply line hot water or cold water?  If it's hot water,
       the washer won't last long.  I've used all bronze gate-type
       valves for hot water lines.

    I've also experienced leaky valve stems after the valve is closed
    and reopened (or vice versa).  But the leaks seem to go away after
    a few minutes.  I haven't had to fix them.
    
    I have another question concerning plumbing shutoff valves.
    
    1.  Should you need to use gate valves for all supply lines? 
        Meaning the kind you can look right through to the other side
        of the valve when open.  The other kind I've seen are called
        "Stop and Waste" valves.  These, you can't see through when
         open.  I thought these would cause your water pressure at the
        faucet to drop becasue the water doesn't have a clear path to
        it's destination, it might have to go through a smaller orfice
        and curve at the valve.
        Please, one of you plumbing experts define the proper applications for
        each of these two types of valves.
    
    
    2.  What about those little nuts you can unscrew from the valve,
        I've used them to drain pipes before taking them apart.
        is there any other use for these?  The gate valves I've bought
        at Spags don't have them.  I thought maybe as long as one valve
        in a clump of pipes (at the lowest point of course) had one,
        then that's all you would need, right?
    
       /steve
    

    I ONLY use gate valves for shut-offs, nothing with washers.  Washers
    eventually leak.  A gate valve has a brass guillotine that retracts
    out of the flow when open.  I don't take these apart to solder,
    but since they are all brass, I make sure I don't solder any moving
    parts together.  If I solder valves with washers, I take them apart.

    Another good choice is the ones that turn 90 degs to close.  I think 
    they have a rotating cylinder with a hole the diameter of the pipe 
    bored in it.  When the hole lines up - flow -- at 90 degs - no flow.
    
    I have learned the a good shut-off valve is worth the money.  Leaks
    obey murphy's law - they only occur when all the stores are closed.
    There is no way you can solder a leak when water is running through
    the pipe.
    
    For packing around the valve stem, pack it in and screw the nut
    down.

    This seems like the appropriate note to enter this.  I think at least
  a few of you will find it interesting.
    
  -Jim
      
    
                Do-it-yourselfers hope to sink plumbing law.
             By Jewel Bradstreet  
Reprinted without permission from "The Evening Gazette", Worcester, Ma. 10/9/87

SUTTON
 A group of law breaking desperadoes gathered in the Suttonian Pub last night
to confess their crimes and lay a plan to get even with the law. Their crime? 
Home plumbing. A violation of the state General Law 142, Section 3.
 Unauthorized plumbing by unlicensed people.
 The group of militant do-it-yourselfers has set out to spring a leak in the 
law via citizens petition, a long, arduous and almost hopeless process, 
organizer Wayne Masse of Holyoke admits.
 "I couldn't believe there was a law like this on the books," he said.
 While anyone can buy a book and do his own electrical work, only licensed 
plumbers can do plumbing work in this state. It's a law these handymen feel 
violates a basic right of man, right up there with freedom of speech - the 
right to do plumbing in your own home.
 Plumbing activist Peter Baghdasarian of Uxbridge said he is ready to go to 
jail to defend his right to change his own faucets. At the next meeting of the 
Uxbridge selectmen, he will announce the time and day he plans to change an 
outside faucet on his Johnson Road home.
 "I can challenge the law in court, but the problem is, even if I win my case, 
that ends it for me. They can still prosecute you".
 Although most at the meeting confessed they either weren't bothered about 
their plumbing sins or they knuckled under and hired a plumber, the law, which 
now carries a $100 maximum fine, still galls them.
 "It takes legislators no time to pass a law like this, but what you have to do 
to change it is unbelievable," Masse said, pointing out that home plumbing is 
legal in many states, including Connecticut.
 According to a latter from Roger McGloin, Uxbridge plumbing inspector, to 
Baghdasarian, "Current state law does not permit plumbing to be done without a 
permit issued by the plumbing inspector, and that permits may be issued only to 
licensed plumbers."
 "The only exception to this law is changing washers,"McGloin advises in his 
Sept. 23 correspondence.
 "We should be able to do our own plumbing if it is up to code and passes 
inspection." Masse said. "If we can meet the standards of the state and local 
plumbing codes and pass inspection, why not? You can do your own plumbing in 
Connecticut. Are the people in Connecticut smarter than we are?"
 Plumbing supplies can be purchased at any hardware store, Masse pointed out. 
"Everybody's doing it, but none of it is being inspected. We just want to allow 
people to do it openly and insist it be inspected."
 To change the law, either a new bill must be passed by legislators or a 
referendum placed on state ballot by citizens petition, Masse said.
 So he had his local legislators submit Senate bill 1555.
 After a March 31 hearing on the bill now before the Senate Committee on 
Government Regulations, which was attended both by Masse and by representatives 
of the plumber's union, the bill went into committee for further study.
 Masse doesn't expect it to ever emerge. The same day legislators were 
considering his bill, they were also considering a bill submitted by the 
Heating and Plumbing Contractor's Union hiking  the fine for illegal plumbing 
to a minimum of $500 and a maximum of $5000, Masse said.

BRICK WALLS
 "We're trying to do something, but we don't know how. We run into brick walls
every time." 
 Masse then started a citizen's petition. He drove to Boston, submitted the 
petition to the attorney general with 10 original signatures with copies of 
each person's voter registration, had it approved, got the slip to give to the 
printer, drove to Danvers to pick up the petitions and got 13 boxes of blank 
petitions.
 And that's where it stands.
 "We have to get 50,525 signatures by Nov. 18," he said.
 No more than one quarter of those signatures can come from any one county, he 
said. That's why it was a godsend when Baghdasarian called him. 
 "I was listening to (radio station) WCRB one day and I heard a blurb about the 
petition," Bagdasarian said. "I called the station and they looked up the wire 
story and gave me his name. Why a classical music station is interested in 
plumbing, I don't know.
 Plumbers insist homeowners doing their own plumbing pose a health hazard to 
the surrounding neighborhood, Masse said. He disagrees, "More people are killed 
by automobiles than by plumbing."
 Bagdasarian admits it might be hard to garner the interest in the petition. 
"There's no sex in plumbing laws. You can't get exited about plumbing."

    Sounds like a crooked union to me. I think I said that in an earlier
    note! What other reason would they have for wanting to up the fines?
    To get their own people? I doubt it. 
    If I lived there you better belive I would sign. Good luck.
    
    -j
    

    From the Worcester phonebook :
    
    Peter Bagdasarian
    Johnson Street
    Uxbridge, MA 01569
    
    I've already wriiten to Peter for a petition to sign and pass around
    in my neck of Middlesex. Remember .32, they can't have more
    than 25 percent from any one county. I included a SASE to help Peter
    defrey costs...

    
    Let's go !!!
    
    The only concern I have is this though. The petitons are of course
    public record, and copies can be obtained by the Union. Could it
    be possible that signers may be black-listed by plumbers for work
    which we may want a pro to do in the future ? We are talking about
    a powerful organization here ...

    Re: .34
    We can't get a plumber to return calls now.  So what do we lose?
    
    (Seriously, I think you're being a bit paranoid.  I can't imagine
    a plumber bothering to see if a potential customer has the "correct"
    ideology before accepting a job.)

    If you live in MA and would legally like to do your own plumbing
    there is a petition drive on to get 50000 signatures from registered
    voters by the middle of November.  Please contact me ASAP if you
    are interested in helping to get signatures or sign the petition.
    HPSCAD::FORTMILLER  or call me at home 568-8778 (not after 10pm).
    
    "The proposed law would allow any person who owns the one, two,
    or three family home in which the homeowner lives to install, repair,
    and/or alter the plumbing in that home.  However, any such work
    must meet the requirements of state and local plumbing codes and
    be inspected by the local plumbing inspector.
     The proposed law would prohibit any town, city, or municipality
    from passing legislatin prohibiting or limiting the right of a
    homeowner to engage in plumbing as provided by this statute.  The
    proposed law further provides that no town, city, or municipality
    shall charge a fee for the right to do such plumbing or to have
    such plumbing inspected.
     The proposed law would apply to both existing dwellings and to
    dwellings built in the future."
    

Take consolation in the fact that even if the petition does not succeed
Massachusets (sp?) residents will still have more freedom than those of 
us in Oz.  Over here you can't do your own electrical work, even though
the code is probably the most lax in the Western World, and some downright
dangerous practices are perfectly acceptable.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    I ran out of petition forms and have requested more and they should
    arrive in 1-2 days.  My wife just spoke to the person organizing this
    drive and they are very much afraid that they will not get the
    required number of signatures.  Volunteers are URGENTLY needed to
    get signatures.  Certainly there must be some of you out there who have
    a few hours to spend to help get the signatures.

Thanks to Dave Fingerhut, I have a petition for Maynard.  Maynard residents, 
please get in touch. 

The way the petitions are set up, you must sign one for the town in which 
you're registered to vote.  This procedure makes it possible for the election 
officials to verify your signature.  Please don't sign a petition for the
wrong town, or sign multiple times:  it doesn't do any good, and it wastes
everybody's time. 

It would be helpful if other petition-holders would identify their towns 
in this topic.  I just had a Lexington resident in my office asking "where 
do I sign?" - I had to rip the pen out of his hands to keep him from 
signing the Maynard one.  There's a Waltham voter down the hall that I'm 
sure would gladly sign too.

    I'll take signatures for any town.  You can find me in MRO1-1
    near Pole MP25.
    
    What is really needed is a person(s) in each facility to have
    a large collection of petitions so as to address the needs of
    a lot of people.  I can get the petitions if we can get some
    volunteers.  Currently the person who started this has been
    mailing them to me but if need be I'll gladly drive to Holyoke
    and pick up a trunk load of them.  These petitions have to be
    turned into the towns no later than 5pm, 18 November 1987.  If
    the person who has the petitions can't get them to the town,
    the person in Holyoke will take care of them but he wants them
    back by 11 November in that case.
    
    To those of you who already requested forms, most of them were
    put in the mail today.

    I may have told some of you this was a petiton to put it on
    the ballot in November of 1988.  Well I had bum information.
    As I now understand it this petition will force the legislature
    to vote on the issue.  I just picked up 300 petitions tonight
    so if you need some please contact me ASAP.

    Persons wanting to sign at LMO (Marlboro), I have ten copies of
    the petition (thanx, Ed). Currently we have one for Marlboro,
    Worcester, Sutton, will probably add Hopkinton & Millbury - I'm
    near pole L13 if you'd like to sign, or if you'd like to take a
    form to pass around your neighborhood.  -Tom R.

    I have petitions for anyone to sign (from any town in MASS).  I'm
    at PK3-1 Pole 30E.
    

    I'm in MRO2-2, will take care of Sh of Shrewsbury - my neighbors
    just LOVE to ski
    stick it to the government on things like this.
    
    The guy next to me is from Upton, and has a petition, so send me
    mail
    if you're an Upton-ite (must be at least 2 people in Upton dontyathink).
    
    I have some blanks for other towns as well.
    
    -reed
    

    BTW ED, I confused over who gets the forms from the twons
    to the state - do the towns do that, or do we need to pick up
    the form after they certify it, and get it to the state?
    
    thanks-reed
    

    After the town approves it, it is my understanding that you need
    to mail it to:
    
    	Wayne Paul Masse
    	P.O. Box 6348
    	Holyoke, MA 01041
    
    Or you can send them to me and I'll send them to him.

    For those of you who get the Worcester Telegram you may want to
    check out page 4A.  It is an article on the guy from Uxbridge publicly
    changing his outside faucet.  The date of the paper is 28-Oct-87.

  In addition to -.1
    
    Check out today's Globe (10/29) page 21. There's a captioned photograph
    of Peter Baghdasarian changing his faucet, "issuing a challenge".

    
    re:.-1
    
    Wow!  How radical!  He looks like such a nice person too.  I only
    wish Mass tax laws were upheld so strickly.
    
    

    I am at MKO1 and I have forms for Bedford and Acton.
    
    

    I am in VRO and have the forms for Wilmington MA
    
    VCS

    The deadline is fast approaching.  If you have not yet signed please
    contact one of the people metioned in this note.  Here is your chance
    to tell government how you feel about one of their stupid laws.

      Anyone care to hang out at Spag's and collect signatures?  I asked
    the manager and his requirement is that I get permission from the
    police department first and let them know in advance so they don't
    have another group there (outside) at the same time.  Any takers?
    
    -Jim
    

      I have one volunteer so far.  We are all set for tomorrow night 
    (Friday).  I have permission from the police department as well as Spag's.
    You can help collect a few signatures and then go in to buy your
    plumbing supplies! :^)  How about it?
    
    -Jim
    
    

A do-it-yourself plumber will have his day in court.

The Health Board has filed complaints against Paramaz "Peter" Baghdasarian of
Johnson  Road, who is challenging a state law that says only licensed people
can work as plumbers and only after they have the proper permits.

The board  issued a notice of violation to Baghdasarian listing seven reason
for complaints filed against him in Uxbridge District Court.

Baghdasarian, a financial consultant, is not a licensed plumber. He contends
that,  as  a  homeowner,  he has every fight to do his own home improvements
because he is the most concerned about the health and safety of his family.

He said he's willing to go to the Supreme Court to prove his point.

He took  the first step a week ago when he invited local and state officials
to  watch  while he installed a new spigot on an outside faucet at his home.
It won nationwide media attention and Baghdasarian's day in court - which is
exactly what he wanted.

Baghdasarian could  be fined $100 if a district court judge finds him guilty
of wrong-doing.

The local Health Board contends that Baghdasarian:

	o	Plumbed without a license.
	o	Installed plumbing without a permit.
	o	Made no provision against backflow from his new spigot.
	o	Installed no protective devices for back siphonage.
	o	Used the wrong solder in his work.
	o	Violated two other sections of MA General Laws in respect
		 to proper licensing.

No court date has been set.

Baghdasarian said  last  night that aside from the fact he is busy preparing
arguments  in  his  own behalf for this court appearance, he is pleased with
the  nationwide  support he has received. A group with similar complaint met
Oct.  9  at  the  Suttonian Pub on Route 146 in Sutton to discuss state laws
affecting the average around-the-house handyman.

Steps were   planned  to  bring  back  the  handyman's  rights  -  including
Baghdasarian's  pronouncement that he would publicly install his own spigot.
He gave the town written notice of his intention in August.

Baghdasarian said  he has received one piece of hate mail. All else has been
supportive,  he  said.  The  hate  letter,  unsigned but with a Buzzards Bay
postmark, suggested that he go back to Armenia.

    Could someone please explain this back siphoning "problem"
    from which we must be protected. It sounds suspect to me.
    Also what was he using for solder, silly putty?
    
    Alan

    I believe he was using 50/50 solder when he should have been using
    95/5 (5% lead instead of 50%).  I believe the 95/5 law went into
    effect on 1-Jan-87 (maybe '86).  I don't understand the siphoning
    stuff, especially since he was just replacing an existing faucet.

    I understand the back siphoning stuff.
    You have to screw a 1-way valve to the outside of your spigots
    so that if you use one of those hose attachements that automatically
    mixes fertilier (herbicides, pesticides, etc) with the water as
    it sprays out, the water (and chemicals) won't backflow back into
    the town water if you raise the hose up higher than the spigot
    (and just happen to lose all water pressure at the same time).
    
    State law.
    
    Come on now, we're going to have to know this stuff if we're going to
    do our own plumbing...
    

    If this is true, the wrong solder and no backflow valve, then this
    could have a negative impact on what this guy and others are trying to
    accomplish. It gives the plumbers union two good examples as to why the
    laws should NOT be changed. 

    Charly

    re: .24
    
      I disagree.  This just shows that people are doing their own plumbing
    anyway.  At least if we are allowed to do it legally, we may be
    encouraged to get it inspected.  The inspector will hopefully find
    the faults and the homeowner will be required to resolve the problem(s).
    If DIY plumbing were legal, I certainly would have had the plumbing
    job I did inspected. Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that
    everyone would do this.  There are always exceptions.

    -Jim

    Are these backflow valves normally present at the end of the 
    spigot or somewhere back up the line? I ask 'cause I've looked at
    a fair amount of new plumbing and have never seen one.
    
    Any bets on how many plumbers install them?
    
    Alan

    The valves just screw on to the end of the spigot.  I don't know
    how many plumbers install them.  Mine did.  And I know my plumbing
    inspector checked for it, because when he came to see the rough
    plumbing, he told me he was going to.
    

    These anti-backflow valves screw onto the outside faucet and you screw
    your garden hose onto it. The ones that I have seen also had a spring
    set-up for the female threads so that you couldn't unscrew from the
    faucet it once it was screwed on tight. 
    
    Interesting story about plumbers and codes and anti-backflow valves:
    
    When I had my house plumbed several years ago, the plumber was showing
    me the valve as he was about to screw it onto the outside faucet and
    said, "I'm required to put these on and the inspector may check for
    them, but I think they're a pain in the a*& so I'll just screw this on
    loosely and you can take it off later if you want to". 

    Charly

    P.S. I agree that if we could DIY plumbing it should be inspected but I
    still think that if you're going to make a point about doing something
    your self, it would be more effective if you did it right. 

    Well I wish us all luck but I still contend that the real pressure
    to have laws like this is to limit the workload of the local inspector,
    and more importantly, to give the town a liability cushion in these
    lawsuit-happy days.   Town budgets will never in their current state
    support the inspection manpower necessary when the inspector must
    approach all homeowner jobs from the basis that the homeowner has
    zero plumbing knowledge.  Inspections can only be very cursory and
    the knowledge that a licensed plumber did it allows this to happen
    without the town worrying about what happens if a homeowner sues
    because harm was done by plumbing that was "certified" by the town.
    
    I believe there is more behind these laws than the plumbers' lobby.
    Plumbers have always had work backlogs, even before this law - the
    apprenticeship system limits the number of plumbers anyway - they
    don't have to protect their market.

    Not that I agree with the law - it sucks, but I think you will find
    more powerful forces behind it than a bunch of plumbers.

I have never seen one of those valves, in Mass or otherwise, anywhere at all, 
in my entire life.  Nor have I ever heard of a case of public water supplies 
being contaminated by the lack of one.  My parent's house was built in Mass 8
years ago, and it doesn't have them, so the law must be relatively new.  Sounds
like something the code developers came up with because they had nothing better
to do. 

Paul

>        The ones that I have seen also had a spring
>    set-up for the female threads so that you couldn't unscrew from the
>    faucet it once it was screwed on tight. 

    That's for sure!!  I had a hell of a time getting mine off once
    it broke.  I had 2; one on each faucet. They each lasted about 
    6 months.  I had to use vice grips to rip the spring out to remove
    one of them.
    

    I've been so busy the past two weeks, I haven't even had a chance to
    read HOME_WORK.  Sorry I missed the note announcing the Spag's petition
    drive.  How'd it go? 
    
    -joet

    Thanks for the replies that explained what these backflow valves
    are.  I asked the builder of my new home what these screw-on things
    on the end of the spigots were and he told me they were anti-freeze
    plugs!  Hahahaha, now I'm rolling!
    
    JSS  who's_now_wondering_what_else............ 

  Many thanks to Therese Mersereau for helping me gather signatures Friday 
night.  My only regret is that I didn't have time to do it sooner so it could 
be done more often.  There was certainly a lot of interest.  It was verrrry 
cold (did anyone else notice the snow flurries?) but it was worth it.  The 
major highlight was that TWO PLUMBERS signed the petition! One plumber jokingly 
made the comment that this would put him out of business. He thought for a 
minute, asked if the work would still have to be inspected, and then signed 
when I said yes. There were many crowds of people that would walk right by us
(you know the type...I don't want to get involved) but when they heard the 
magical word 'plumbing', they lunged back at us.  We collected about 120 
signatures in two hours.  Unfortunately, many had to be turned away because
they weren't registered voters.    

-Jim

    Ok, so let's assume that there *is* pressure to keep the laws as
    they are, and not just from plumbers. So... how do they do it in
    all those other states out there?? Massachusetts is the only state
    that can't hire enough inspectors??
    As others have mentioned, the enthusiasm for this petition is
    incredible. The folks who've gotten forms from me have basically
    all said "There wasn't one person who *wouldn't* sign it, except
    plumbers."
    -Tom R._who'd_like_to_plumb_his_upcoming_new_home

    In Minnesota, you do the work, you call the inspector for an
    appointment.  At least, that was how it worked for me in a Minneapolis
    suburb (West Bloomington) back in 1982.  
    
    (An aside - for the electrical work done at the time, all that was
     needed was the plan and a form signed by a state certified Master
     Electrician; the inspection was then cursory)
    
    re ~.21 on the "back-flow valve" - my new house (built in spring/summer
    1986) does _not_ have one of those things on its one outside faucet.
    
    Dwight

When the A/C & heating people put the humidifier on my furnace, they 
used the 'saddle' or 'needle' fitting on the water pipe.  Now its 
leaking, and my plumber claims that this sort of fitting is illegal in 
MA, and he has to cut the pipe and put in a full fitting.  The A/C Co. 
has offered t pay for the work - but was very surprised to hear about 
the legal issue....anyone know what the 'legality' scoop is on this?

    >>"...he has to cut the pipe and put in a full fitting."
    
      Pardon the sarcasm but maybe he has to do that because ANYBODY
    could put in a saddle valve.  The part cost about $3 and takes a
    couple of minutes to replace/install.  Like .1 said, talk to the
    town inspector and see if it is in fact illegal.  Even if it is,
    I would still replace it.
    
    -Jim
    

   
    Recently, I had a second floor addition built on my ranch.  When
    they put in the plumbing for the second floor bathroom, they ran
    some of the copper piping for the sinks through the wall abutting
    the remainder of the first floor attic.  The addition only spans
    2/3 's of the existing structure, so 1/3 third of the original 
    attic is still intact.  The problem is that the pipe is freezing
    on these really frigtid mornings.  There is no electrical outlets
    immediately available in the original attic.  What's the best way
    to insulate the few feet of pipe which is visible ?  BTW, what 
    exactly is heat tape ?
    
    I was thinking about simply building a cover to close in the pipes,
    and insulating them with fiberglas insulation prior to covering
    them over.  Does this sound like a feasible solution ?
    
    - Larry

   The easiest thing to try is the solid foam tubes that can be put
    over the pipes.  These are foam tubes with an I.D. the same as the
    pipe you're going to insulate.  The foam has a slit down its length
    so you can put it over the pipe.
    
    Insulating with fiberglass insulation will also help.
    
    The heat tape is similar to gutter cable heaters, except it is much
    shorter and has a thermostat that lets the current go to the tape
    when the temperature falls below a certain point.   
    
    The foam and the heating tape is usually available at lumber yards
    or hardware stores.
    

Pipes installed in this way are bad news.  If you notice the freezeup and
can fix it before the pipes break, it's just inconvenient.  If you're out
of town, or if the frozen pipe feeds infrequently-used fixtures (like a
guest bathroom), it can cause lots of damage.

You have several choices:

1. The easiest is just to leave the water running a little on cold nights, 
and to shut off and drain these pipes when you go out of town.

2. Just insulate - the methods described by .0 (build a box) and .1 (slip-
on tube) are fine.  Note that insulation only causes the pipes to retain
heat longer, thereby delaying the time at which they will freeze - it
doesn't provide any heat of its own, of course.  Also note that incorrectly
installed inuslation can do more harm than good, by keeping the house heat
away from the pipes. 

3. A heat tape would do the job.  You'll want to plug it into an easily-
accessible outlet within the house - not in the attic - so you only have to
plug it in when the weather gets real cold or when you go out of town.  

4. Another way to provide active heat would be to enlarge the holes through
which the pipes pass, so the house heat can make its way to the pipes. 
This technique, used in conjunction with an insulated box, effectively
moves the pipes from the attic into the heated house, by moving the heated
perimeter. 

5. The high-end solution is to move the plumbing and/or walls, so the pipes 
really are inside the heated house (the way it should have been done in the 
first place).  This approach is overkill just to fix the current problem, 
but should be included in any future major work in the vicinity.

My own fix for a similar problem ran in several phases:

1. Leave the water dripping overnight, as an immediate fix, to buy time for 
the following steps.

2. Insulation had been ramrod-packed into the chase, shoving the pipes
against the outside wall and keeping the house heat away from them.  
Removing this insulation allowed house heat to circulate, and also allowed 
access for:

3. Wrap heat tape around pipes, and plug in when needed.

4. The pipes in question were eventually moved elsewhere (to an inside 
chase!) as part of a major addition.

     Hi Larry,
                Here is another vote for the foam tubes mentioned in
    .1  A friend of mine had the frozen pipe blues last winter, he 
    installed these tubes (the hardest part of the job was getting TO 
    the pipes in the very small crawlspace) but since then he hasn't
    had any problems. The things are inexpensive and available almost 
    any hardware/lumber store.  i.e. Somerville Lumber 
                                
    Good Luck
    Dave

    Hint:  Spag's has the Climatube foam tubes for $2.37 (for four tubes)
    and there is a $2 rebate available until the end of February.
    
    I think it's one per family, though.  I've only bought one so far.
    
    Elaine
    

    I ended up calling the contractor regarding the problem, and he
    had the plumber come down.  He installed some of the foam pipe
    insulation, but it was much thicker than what I've seen in most
    stores.  He also stated that it would probab;y be a wise idea to
    also build a cover and pad it with insulation.
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions - Larry

    
    
    	I have been having trouble with my bathtub drain in the new
    addition. Sometimes the water would not drain during the cold wheater.
    Then it happened, no cold water. The addition has a foundation but
    with maybe 3 feet of crawl space with plastic on the ground and
    6" insulation between the joists. All the pipes are exposed with
    foam insulation around them. I punched a small hold in the cellar
    to the addition and installed heat tape around all the pipes including
    the drains. It seems that the water froze in the that little elbow
    from the bathtub due to sitting there. It was a pretty simple job
    but dirty. When I read the specs on the heat tape I found that even
    with Fitchburg Gas and Electric at $.12 a killowatt hour its only
    $.67 cents a month to run 21 feet of this tape all the time !!
    	
    	NEVER AGAIN NOW SUCKER !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    After you wrap the heat tape, do you have to put insulation around
    the pipe?  
    
    Is the heat "tape" really like a tape which will tape on pipe or you
    have to use electrical tape to tape it on the pipe?
    
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    
    
    	You just put electrical or duct tape strips round the wire just
    to hold it in place until you put the insallation over it which
    will hold it permanetly.

    	I'm not sure if this stuff really is called heat tape or if
    that is an old term I remembered but its not tape but actual wire.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    
    	Sorry I forgot to answer the other question. No you do not need
    to put insullation on after. You can just leave the wire taped to
    the pipe. There are real good directions that come with the kit.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Something that nobody mentioned (that we found out the hard
    way) was that you shouldn't run these things off extension
    cords.  We burnt through an extension cord and, I forget
    which, an electrician or plumber told us that it's a real
    fire hazard.  Don't remember why they tend to fry extension
    cords but I guess it's common.
    

    These things usually come with a warning not to use them with an
    extension cord! 
    
    Question, what type of entension cord did you use? Was it a heavy duty
    type, ie. at least 16 or even better 14 gauge wire, OR was it a regular
    household lamp cord type of extension usually 18 guage wire? If it was
    the second type, I'm not suprised that it burnt up! 

    Charly

    RE .12   (PS I LIKE CAPS, I CAN SEE THEM BETTER)
    
    NO, I THINK YOU RIGHT ON. I (AND I'M SURE A LOT OF OTHERS) HAD PIPES
    FREEZE UP DURING THE LAST COLD SPELL. THEY DID NOT BURST, BUT
    REQUIRED THAWING. I INSTALLED THE HEAT TAPE, WHICH LOOKS A LOT
    LIKE TV ANTENNA CABLE, WITH A THERMOSTAT ON ONE END. THESE 
    REQUIRED 1/2" OF INSULATION AFTER INSTALLATION. SOME OF THE OTHERS
    DO NOT. BEST CHECK THE DIRECTIONS THEY GAVE YOU. AS FOR THE 
    CONSUMPTION, WATTS, AMPS, ETC ALTHOUGH THE TAPE IS LABELLED
    I COULD NOT MAKE IT OUT. THIS STUFF I BOUGHT HAS BLUE WIRE,
    AND THE THERMOSTAT IS CONTAINED IN A PLASTIC BULB. ANYONE
    GOT THE SAME TAPE, THAT CAN READ THE CONSUMPTION OF JUICE.
    
    
    JIM.
    
    

    
    
    	Re: .13
    
    	I have the same type of tape you described. It says on the wire
    that it uses 3 watts per 8 feet. I used 21 feet at a cost of $.12
    cents per killowatt hour. So, 21 feet uses 7.875 watts per hour
    times 24 hours times 30 days is 5670 watts or 5.670 killowatts times
    $.12 is $.68 cents a month. 
    
    	Did I figure this right ? 
    
    	-Steve-
    

.14> Did I figure this right ? 

Sounds right to me.  Note that you figured worst case, i.e. the heat tape 
not just plugged in for the entire month, but actually generating heat and
consuming electricity 24 hours a day, every day, for the entire month.  
Since it's on a thermostat, not very likely.

At 3 W per 8 ft., .10 must have had a hell of a lot of heat tape connected to 
a very skinny extension cord.  Maybe he used (much?) heavier-duty heat tape.  
Maybe he tried to heat his house with the stuff.  :-) 

Even at this low / cheap rate, I still wouldn't leave the heat tape plugged 
in all the time.  All electrical components fail eventually - thermostats in 
particular.

    I was not trying to heat my house off the stuff nor did we
    have more then one attached to the cord.  According to the
    plumber (or whoever) he's seen it before and, if there wasn't
    a potential problem, then why is it referenced on the package?
    It may be that it never shut off - beats me.  Still doesn't
    make sense with all numbers floating around.  Whatever, just
    wanted to mention that it happened.
    

    RE: .14
    
    THE CALCULATION IS CORRECT, BUT I WOULD GUESS IT DOESN'T RUN 24
    HRS A DAY. I CONNECTED MINE TO A TIMER, IT RUNS FROM 7 P.M.
    TO 7 A.M.  (NOW WATCH SOME IDIOT SAY, "ITS COLD DURING THE DAY
    TOO') YA I KNOW, AND IF WE'RE GONNA HAVE WEATHER LIKE WE HAD
    LAST WEEK I'LL PLUG THEM IN DIRECTLY. BUT ANYWAY BACK TO THE 
    COST, ITS CHEAP ENOUGH COMPARED TO THE MESS, I KNOW INSURANCE
    MIGHT COVER IT, BUT SOME THINGS CAN'T BE REPLACED. OH YA ONE
    MORE THING. IF YOU HAVE A BREAK DON'T BE FOOLED, THE AREA
    THAT MAY GET DAMGED AIN'T ONLY THE LOCAL VICINITY, I'VE KNOWN
    WATER TO TRAVEL ALONG A CEILING AND COME DOWN IN SOME FUNNY 
    PLACES.
    
    
    JIM.
    

    OK, eightteen months later ... how is that "D" vent described in
    .9 supposed to stop back siphonage?
    
    I'm (well, actually, my wife is) planning on moving a sink too,
    maybe to an island, but anyawy, more than 6 feet from the existing
    stack.   The PRO-VENt would be great, but if the inspector and teh
    plummer won't go with it, that's out.
    
    Trying to work out the dimensions for these things, I guess that
    I don't understand the critical distance bit.  Of course the outet
    of the drain into the stack has to be below the weir of the P-trap,
    or else the water won't run out.  If my stack is 10 feet away from
    the trap, it will have to be 2.5 inches lower (1/4 inch per foot).
    That by itself isn't a problem, surely, provided that the end of
    the drain (i.e.) is higher than the BOTTOM of the P trap. Well,
    the standad P-trap has only a few inches between top and bottom,
    but why shouldn't I (I mean, the plumber) make that distance a foot
    or so?                                           
    
                  from sink                        to roof
    		|  |                             |  |
    		|  |                           	 |  |
    		|  |                             |  |
    		|  |                             |  |
    		|  |	__________               |  |
    		|  |   |   	  \_______       |  |
    		|  |   |  ______          \______|  |
                |  |   |  |     \________           |
    		|  |   |  |              \_______   |
    		|  |   |  |                      |  |
    		|  |___|  |                      |  |
    		|         |                        to septic tank
    		|_________|
                                    
    It seems to me that so long as the opening of the drain into the
    stack is above top of the bottom of the "U" in the trap, the trap
    can't be siphoned dry, and this is true no matter what the run from
    the sink to the stack may be.  What am I mising?
    
    	Andrew
    

    I can't answer all of your questions.  Codes are strange beasts.
    
    If you want to be completely legal, you should find a GOOD plumber
    and get his help. Best, get several - you'll probably see a big
    difference in estimates.
    
    I had a similar case and got by on two technicalities:
    
    	One, in my house the new plumbing connected to the same point
        as the old plumbing. Most localities allow grandfather clauses
        in their codes.
    
        Two, the sink drain, although running eight feet, connected
        within a foot of the main stack(did that make any sense? When
        the drain pipe from the sink connected to the rest of the plumbing,
        it was within a foot of the main stack.) From what I remember
        of the codes, it's not how long your run is, but how far it's
        join  to the plumbing is from a vent.
    
    

    
    I have a problem with the pluming in my house.  The
    problem is that each time I flush the toilets, or run the
    dishwasher,  I get a loud gurgle from the sinks in the 
    Kitchen.  Everything is working fine, it is just gurgling.
    this makes me a bit nervous, as I don't want anything
    backing up in the kitchen sink!   This has only 
    started happening in the last month or so.   
    
    A previous note mentioned that this may be a sign of the
    vent pipe being clogged.  My question is that what is
    a vent pipe?  Could it being clogged cause the 
    above symptoms?  Any other ideas?           
    
    Sherry
    
    

    If you have a septic system. I was told that gurgling and/or the
    lowest toilet in the house not flushing properly(ie. slower than
    normal) it's time to have the tank pumped.  If you do not have a
    septic system then disregard this note.
    

    About 2 months ago, I heard gurgling for about 4 hours and then
    the toilet in the downstairs overflowed.  The cause was a stoppage
    in the sewer line.  I recommend you get a plumber ASAP.
    

    
    Yes, we do have a septic system.  Last night, I went through the
    papers we got with the house, and it turns out that we were suppose
    to have the septic system pumped last spring.  Well,  the guy is
    coming this morning to pump it.  Luckily, nothing has overflowed
    yet!
    
    Thanks.
    
    sherry
    
    

Has any action been taken on this matter by the legislature?

_bill

    
    FYI - 
    
    The septic tank was FULL.  It was also apparent that the pump, which
    pumps the water from the tank to the leech field was not operating.
    Chances are that when the tank became full, it started trying to
    send the sludge down to the pump.  And this clogged the pump.  
    So, our tank is now empty, and the plumber is coming this morning
    to fix the pump.  
    
    Not only that, but the previous owners were off by one year when
    they said we needed to pump the tank.  So, it hadn't been pumped
    in about 4 years (It should be done every other year).
    
    the joys of homeownership...
    
    

In Taxachusettes, you're required to have you tank pumped within 1 year of
selling your house.  This really bummed me out because when I sold the house I
has just pumped it a year and a half ago.  sigh...

-mark

    Just wondering - how big is the tank that the pump resides in??
    
    I have a raised leetch field and the jerk that build the house only
    installed a 35 gallon tank for the pump station.  What happened
    was 2 kids + 2 adults = lots of waste = pump runs a lot and burns
    out.  I had to spend $$$$$ to have it dug up and replaced with a
    500 gallon tank.  Don't want to panic you just a note from someone
    who's been through it.
    
    Don
    
    

    re: .5
    
    Where is this requirement stated?  I bought a house last year that
    hadn't been pumped in a coon's age.  I had it pumped as part of
    a required septic inspection.
    
    I'd love to hear the rest on the requirement...
    
    Elaine

    
    RE: .6
    
    	I don't know the size, but it is much larger than 35 gallons.
     From looking down it yesterday it is about 10 ft long, 5 ft wide
    and 5 feet high.  I found out today that the pump is busted - so
    I get to replace the pump now...Arghhh  Does $300 sound about right
    for a septic pump (pump only, not installation?)
    
    

re:7

As for requiring the system to be pumped, I'm not entirely sure who requires it
(bank, state, town, board of health, etc.), but I know that I had to pump mine
before I could sell and the house I bought had to pump theirs as well.

Just a note, the folks who bought our house had to have their tank pumped when
they sold.  They had been living in that house over a dozen years and had no
idea where their system was since they had never had it pumped the entire time
they were there.

-mark

    Depending on the horsepower rating and size of the pump that's a
    good price.  The last one I had install is a gould 1hp and cost
    me approx 950.00 installed.  This is not the time to try and save
    money.  Since you have the tank opened nows the time to buy the
    best pump you can afford.  Where do you live and whose doing the
    installation????
    
    
    Don
    
    

    
RE: -1    Well,   I wish I read your note yesterday :-).  They did install
    a pump, but I didn't see the brand or the size.  It was about $440
    though.  The person doing the installation was Dave Gordon from
    Milford, NH.   The problem was that the old pump burnt out,  all
    the electrical wires were melted.  This may have been caused by
    one of 2 things.  Either due to the fact that the electical outlet
    that was buried with the pump, which the pump plugged into was not
    protected from the weather (there was sand and dampness inside the
    outlet.)  Or, the automatic on/off switch got stuck in the on position.
    Oh well...
    
    

    From the ORTHO Basic Plumbing Techniques book:
    
    GATE valves:  used where a line is either fully open or fully closed
    most of the time.
    
    GLOBE valve:  used where a valve is needed to control the volume
    and the loss of pressure through the valve will not be problematic.
    (globe valves are stop and waste valves without a bleeder)
    
    BLEEDER valve:  (also called a stop and waste or drainable valve)
    used where required by code in cold-weather areas where pipes can
    freeze in the winter or where the plumbing system requires a bleeding
    mechanism.
    
    
    Personal advice:  always use gate valves for basic supply lines
    (from the meter to floor/wall runs) and always install a hose bibb
    (stopcock) valve at the lowest point of your supply system to allows
    for clean and easy bleeding/draining when performing maintenance
    and repair work.
    
    Randy

    Don't know who owns the parenthetical statement, but globe valves
    are NOT stop and waste valves without a bleeder. Stop in any decent
    hardware store and look at the three valves. The differences are
    obvious.
    
    Joe

    ... and furthermore
    
    Some basic differences:
    
    GLOBE - Open valve offers almost no restriction to water flow.
            Lever operated. Open to shut in 90 degrees. Lever indicates
            position of valve. Expensive. Good as main shut-off, especially
            if your working on lines and need to cut the water in a hurry
            to prevent flood (I know from experience).
    
    GATE  - Open valve offers almost no restriction to water flow.
            Open to shut in many turns. No resilent, replaceable seat.
            Moderate price. 

    STOP  - Some restriction to water flow. Open to shut in many turns. 
            Resilent, replaceable seat (some). Cheap. Some have "bleeder"
            to drain lines, and are called STOP and WASTE (or STOP and
            DRAIN, STOP with WASTE, etc.)
    
    I'm sure there are other more "plumberly" reasons for using one
    or the other. Personally, I'd fulsh the ORTHO book if they couldn't
    even define the valves correctly.
    
    Joe

                                                                       
    RE: -1
    
    	Your 'Globe Valve' description sounds more like a 'Ball Valve'.
    I'd agree more with the ortho description of the globe valve.
    
    	Jon
    
    

    You're right, I did describe a BALL valve 8^{ ... still think Ortho's
    further off base 'tho.
    
    Joe (close valve on mouth of bright-red face)

    Was does it mean when your plumbing shudders as you turn off
    a faucet?

    Water hammer. It is caused by the water coming to a sudden stop
    at the end of a long run when the valve is closed. There are other
    notes dealing with this and how to correct the problem.
    BTW- it can over time actually loosen couplings resulting in a flood.
    
    -j                                    
    

    If it happens when you shut off one particular faucett, it usually
    indicates that faucett is wearing out or the hangers are loose on
    the pipes going to that faucett.
    
    
    

    We had water hammer (Moving water has momentum.  When the faucet
    is closed quickly the momentum is transferred to the pipes causing
    them to move.  High pressure = fast water = loud slams) so badly, 
    if you shut the faucet off quickly, it sounded like a Mac truck 
    rammed our house.  There are two simple solutions:
    
    	1) Turn off your faucets veerrrry ssssllllooooowwwwwllllyyy.
    	   This is the cheap solution.  {;-)
    
    	2) Have a pressure reduction valve (I think that is what they
    	   are called) installed.  Not all that expensive.
    
    We chose 2) above.  We were then able to find the happy medium between
    the right water pressure in the shower and water hammer.
    
    Stan

    I too experienced shuddering pipes.  Eventually, the shut off valve
    on the faucett wore out; I was unable to shut it off.  After I repaired
    the valve, the shuddering stopped.

    Liquids are not compressible, so the sudden loss of velocity is
    transferred to the (movable) pipes. You probably have one or more
    short vertical stubs that should have air trapped in them, this
    serves as a compressible medium that absorbs the shock wave.
    
    Over time, the short vertical stubs fill with water and lose their
    damping capability. Turn off the water supply in the basement and
    drain the system (open downstairs and upstairs taps). When you turn
    the water back on the stubs will again have air trapped in them.
    
    If you don't have any of these shock absorbers, it's a snap to put
    them in.

    And another thing: The water main in my house WAS a gate valve.
    
    Tried to open it after closing it  and the gate broke off in the closed
    position.  This could never happen with a ball valve, which is what
    is in place now. Just my opinion, but many (not all) small gate valves are
    junk by design.
    
    gjd

    What about the other member of the plumber's orchestra, the pipe
    organ?
    
    When my toilet is _almost_ full, and the valve is shutting off,
    the pipe starts to resonate with a loud "foghorn" sound.  Sometimes
    the shower does the same, and I have to turn it off and restart
    it to get rid of the noise.  Would an air hammer solve this too?
          fred

    
    	RE: -1 Toilet
    
    	You probably have the old fashioned ballcocks in the toilet
    tank.  Replace them with 'FLUIDMASTER' ballcocks and the shuddering
    will disappear.

    I need help deciding which water hammer to buy.  The salesman said
    the 16 oz. model would be good for most DIYers, but master plumbers
    use the 24 oz. or even the 28 oz. models.
    
    I kinda like the feel of the 24 oz. water hammer I hefted.  Do you
    all think this is the right size for the project I have planned?
    Well, I haven't actually decided yet all the details of what I'm
    going to do, but I thought I'd ask about the tool first.  After
    all, it's a start.  Once I have that settled, I can move on to what
    to do with it.
    
    While I was in the store, I looked at some voltage spikes.  They
    had one that was about oh....  that long, but I don't know if it's
    long enough to hold down the voltages I'm dealing with.  Will it?
    Maybe if I stick it deep enough into the ground.  I've been reading
    about that in this notes file, too.
    
    By the way, this notes file is great!

    
    A video tape version of the PBS, TOH I rented at the store covers
    several of these concerns.  In the one segment I remember, Norm
    was showing Bob how to eliminate getting a too small voltage spike
    for the job at hand.  Seems like there's a neat adapter for the
    Black and Decker See Saw that allows you to trim a larger size spike
    down to size.  Norm recommends only buying the larger sizes and
    triming to fit.  Bob seemed perplexed at what to do with the Bud
    beer can rack he built for keeping the spikes sorted. 

    What does it mean when you hear a loud groaning noise when you turn
    a faucet *on*? 
    
    Here's what happens:
    
    Turn faucet on. Loud groan, no water. Groan stops, water comes out.
    Turn faucet off, water stops, no sound.
    
    Is this just a flakey valve or what?
    

re: groaning faucet.

Check that the rubber (or plastic) washer in the valve is tight and/or 
in good condition. This is the easiest thing to do first.

Oh yeah, in Mass you need a licensed plumber ;-)

Chuck

When I came home from work today I saw a bottle of TANG sitting on the
counter and my immediate reaction was that my wife must have been cleaning out
the dishwasher again.

Actually, this topic had been discussed so long ago that I thought it might be
worth it to reopen this note just to give the relative newcomers to this file
something really bizzare to read.  So, if you're still confused, read the base
note and all its replies to figure out "what the hell is he talking about?"

-mark

    If Tang can clean stains out of a dishwasher, imagine what it does to
    your stomache.

<    If Tang can clean stains out of a dishwasher, imagine what it does to
<    your stomache.

     If your stomach acid can disolve food, imagine what it could do for 
     your dishwasher.:-)

    In the US Navy, the official Naval Nuclear Reactor tech manuals
    list the federal stock number of an alternantive cleaning compound
    for certain items in the power-plant, should the primary cleaner
    be not available in an emergency. The choice of the Nuclear Navy???
    Orange cool-aid mix! They call it "bug juice".
    
    Been there
    

I have this device that will allow you to generate electricity from the kinetic
energy stored in the water in your pipes!  It can generate up to 150KWH each
day! 1  Cut your eletric bill!  Save money!  Amaze your friends!  Astound your
relatives! 

Also available from Ronco, and all of your better late late night television
commercials.... 



(small print)

If you have a 3" ID faucet that you open and close every 10 seconds.

Enjoy your spagghetti, folks!

Jim :-)

  I have an unusual plumbing problem and not being an expert on home_work,
  I was hoping somebody could explain the cause of the problem and tell me
  what needs to be done to fix it.

  I'm the original owner and have lived in my home for 8 years. We have 2
  bathrooms which are next to each other. Sometimes in the middle of the
  night, (at least every other day and getting more frequent) I here a 
  tapping noise in the bathrooms. It actually wakes my wife and me up.
  If I turn on a faucet or flush a toilet in either bathroom, the noise 
  goes away. Sometimes, the noise comes back in 2-3-4 hours and sometimes 
  it goes away for the rest of the night. I have never noticed the noise 
  in the daytime but both my wife and I are usually at work. 

  Does anybody have any ideas as to the cause and what is needed to fix this ?

  Thanks,

  			Keith

    Does it only happen at night or have you ever noticed it during
    the day? As a longshot but not impossible, you could have a bird
    or other animal setting up home in the vent stack. Since you say
    that flushing the toilet or running the sink stops the noise, try
    filling a bucket with water beforehand, and when the noise begins
    again, dump the bucket down the drain. If the noise stops, then you
    are looking at a waste line noise, or perhaps some new occupants.
    
    Eric

  Re .1

>    Does it only happen at night or have you ever noticed it during
>    the day? 

  I have only noticed it at night but then again, my wife and I are usually 
  at work in the day. One thing I thought of but can't totally relate to
  the problem is that water pressure is probably higher at night since
  people are not watering their lawns, running dishwashers etc.     

  I will try your idea about dumping a bucket of water down the drain the 
  next time I hear the noise and report what I find in this note.

  Thanks,

  			Keith 

    Are you on a private well or town water?  Some towns use gravity fed
    systems and run off storage tanks during the day.  At night, when
    electricity rates are lower, they pump the next day's water into the
    tanks.  Acton works this way.  When they use the pump across the street
    from my house, every pipe in the house taps and the jons flush.  Thanks
    to polution, they have shut down that well.  I also added a pressure
    regulator, which should filter out such fluctuations.  BTW, town water
    pressure is 110 PSI and you should have a regulator if it's over 80.
    

    
    Could also be something having to do with the way the pipes are
    stapped to the joists maybe????  Reason I ask, is I have a similar
    situation which began after I installed a new hot water heater.
    When I installed in, due to slight size variations, etc, things
    probably didn't wind up (both hot and cold) in exactly the same
    place they were in with the old tank.....
    
    Or a second thought:  I also replaced the pressure relief valves
    -- both the one on the cold water feed which supposedly protects
    the tank from imploding if a vacuum builds up in the main )by bleeding
    this off -- for example when the fire department opens a hydrant
    and the water pressure quickly drops in the main.  If this new valve
    was defective, could this cause what is being discussed here?????

    We have an unusual related problem.  When the powder room toilet
    is flushed during the night, there is an incredible hammering in
    the pipes.  No other water line hammers during the night if it is
    used, and the powder room problem does not occur during the day.
    If I get up and open the shutoff valve below the toilet a little
    the noise stops.  
    
    The house is 4 years old and the problem began about a month ago.
    We have town water and checked with the utility to see if there
    were significant pressure increases/decreases during the night and
    they said "no".
    
    Does anyone have a possible solution to this?
    
      

  I tried .1's suggestion of dumping a bucket of water down the drain when
  the noise came back. It didn't work so the problem is definately in the 
  pipes which bring the water in. I'm not sure exactly how the water system
  works where I live in Colorado Springs. I would take an educated quess 
  and say that the pressure comes from gravity as most of the city's water
  comes from reservoirs in the mountains. It is true that the noise was at 
  it's worst in the spring when snowmelt and runoff was high. But then again,
  I have only heard the noise for the last 2 years and runoff was lower
  this year than most other years. Still I think there is probably some kind
  of pressure problem.

  					Keith

    	Here's a suggestion. Go to the inlet valve for the main source
    of water entering the house and shut it OFF.  Open a couple of faucets
    (both hot and cold) and take the pressure off the system. Close
    the faucets and then slowly reopen the source valve until it's open
    completely and slowly turn on (approx. halfway) the cold and hot
    faucets again. Go back to the main inlet a back down the valve about
    a half turn. This should stop the rumble.
    	A drop or rise in water pressure, a new main valve, new plumbling
    and other little item caused vibration in the plumbing system of
    my last every time and the little adjustment to correct the pressure
    took care of the "Gremlins in the Pipe".
    
    Ken

  Re .7

  	O.K., your suggestion sounds like it is easy to implement and
  may in fact solve the problem. I'll do it tonight and report back here 
  in 3 or 4 days as to whether it worked or not.

  Thanks,

  		Keith

    But --  RE: .7 and .8 
    
    This solution may appear to solve the problem by reducing pressure
    in the main feed, thereby decreasing the objectionable noises, but
    I don't think this really answers the question/problem at hand does
    it?  I mean, won't adjusting the valve in this fashion just simply
    make a symptomatic noise quieter, without really fixing the true
    problem?  It sounds (logically anyways) thatmay be either some pressure
    problems /variations from the feed, or maybe some back-siphoning
    with something within the house...
    
    Any ideas... Even thoall these plumbing problems defy logic ---
    I'd like to try to fix mine!

    	The problem may not be with the house plumbing. Water depts.
    are pressurizing lines everywhere to keep up with demands. I'd be
    willing to bet that between 4pm and 7pm the piping doesn't make
    any noise. But, at 6-7 am 9-11pm it shake, rattles, and pings.
    	Major usage is between 7-10 am 4-8 pm for water. The water pressure
    drops and the pipes quiet down, as the usage drops pressure increases
    and the noises start. Also, any new plumbing (especially metal)
    have a tendency to make noise until it gets "comfortable".
    	I wouldn't screw around with my plumbing to rid a rattle. I'd
    turn faucets on and off very slowly, if the rattling started with
    everything off, I'd flush a toilet. The only two culprits I watch
    are the dishwasher and washing machine. More so the latter because
    of the flow controllers inside.
    
    Ken

I'm assuming that the petition did not make it for last year.
Are we going to try again this year?  The earlier we start the
better right?

    	RE: -.1 
    
    Sounds like a good idea.  Count me in if we do it.

    Citric Acid is sold as "Sour Salt" in some supermarkets in the spice
    section.  
    
    It works as described above for iron stains in our dish washer,
    and for the stained decals on certain glasses, and on certain dishes.

This recommendation is a little late for .0, but perhaps it'll help others.

Among the amazing accumulation of junk left over from an addition to our 
house (in Maynard) were the following:

    1. Three steam radiators
    2. A box and a half of brand new aluminum siding (don't ask...)
    3. About the same amount of used aluminum siding

I unloaded two of the radiators through HOME_WORK, but everything else 
graced my driveway for quite awhile.  Finally I got around to looking under 
"Scrap Metals" in the Yellow Pages, and found

    Max Levine & Co.
    buyers of all scrap iron & metals:  copper, aluminum, brass, lead
    open Sat. 7:30 AM - 12 noon
    270 Tanner, Lowell  (508) 454-7786

I called, and learned that the Saturday hours don't happen in the summertime 
(but resume sometime in September).  Their weekday hours are 7:30 to 4:30. 
Directions: off the Lowell Connector northbound, take the Plain Street exit; 
turn right (east), take immediate left, second building on the right.

I did my own hauling in my van (taking the big radiator apart...), and was 
mostly just looking to get rid of the stuff; making money on the deal would 
be a minor bonus.  I was expecting less than $10 for this small load.  Imagine 
my astonishment and delight when they totaled up the bill:

		800 lb. iron (radiator)	@ $.02	= 16.00
		195 lb. aluminum	@ $.40	= 78.00
						-------
						 $94.00
Payoff was in cash.

Lessons learned:
1. A certain amount of inconvenience - in culling scrap metal out of 
   construction trash, storing it, and hauling it - is worth non-trivial 
   money.
2. Aluminum siding is heavier than it looks.

    This is a reply to an old (1987) note, but I dont want to create
    a new one. Im in the same boat as .0. I have to replace the sewage
    stack in my house, which is entirely cast iron. I plan to replace
    it with PVC. All the walls are exposed, and the stack goes straight
    from the basement to the roof, in 4-6 foot sections, joined with
    lead tapped in. Question: How can I remove the old stack.
    ??. I want to leave the stack from the 2nd floor to the attic
    intact, and adapt PVC from the second floor (above the toilet,
    where it is only a vent, no waste) down to the hole in the floor
    in the basement. What is the best way to unhook the pipe, sledge
    hammer? I want to avoid any flame-type method, since there is
    lots of exposed dry 100 yr wood around. Do I have to demolish
    from the top or  can I brace the bottom and work from the bottom
    up? Im handy, but not familiar with sewage pipe.
    
    All help would be greatly appreciated.
    

    re .10
    
    Go to a tool rental place and rent a soil pipe cutter.  It has a
    chain-like device that wraps around the pipe and makes a clean cut.
    Given the alternatives, this tool ranks up near the top of the "right
    tool for the right job" spectrum.  I had so much fun and it was
    so easy to use that I cut the sections I removed into little pieces!
    
    
    

	Amen to the use of a soil pipe cutter, a tool invented in plumber's
  heaven!.  Depending on where you want to make the cut, it make take another
  person to help you position the tool but once in place, it's "pump, pump,
  SNAP!".  Easy as pie.  Once cut it's easy then to connect the plastic to
  the cast iron using a neoprene/clamp sleeve.

								--Mike

    thanks re: .11 and .12
    
    more questions:
    	1- So I use the cutter to remove sections of pipes,
           will the joints where the pipes are lead-tapped in
     	   come apart, or do I need to chisel them out, or what.Will
    	   they pull apart?
    	2- the pipe is against the wall with maybe 1-2 inches
    	   clearance around it. Will the cutter fit in such a situation.
    	3- Im planning to remove the pipe, leaving the flange sticking
    	   out of the cellar floor, and then putting pvc in.
    	   (I wasnt planing on cutting the pipe and using the cut edge
    	    for a joint, I was going to use the existing end of the
    	   pipe)
    	4- Im planning 3-4 days to remove the old and put in the new
           (having all the materials on hand prior), Is this insane?
            I removing the stack, and one bathrooms worth of plumbing,
            and replacing everything. Everything is exposed.
        5-  Is there such a thing as a rental shower?
            Im dismantling the only shower in the house, and its gonna
            be ripe-city working on soil pipes for 4 days without a
    	    shower.
    
    	thank you very much, this is helping alot.
    

>    	1- So I use the cutter to remove sections of pipes,
>          will the joints where the pipes are lead-tapped in
>     	   come apart, or do I need to chisel them out, or what.Will
>    	   they pull apart?

	No, the joints shouldn't come or pull apart because of the cut you made
  with the tool.  I don't see why you would want to chisel them out.  See
  below...

>    	2- the pipe is against the wall with maybe 1-2 inches
>    	   clearance around it. Will the cutter fit in such a situation.

	It might be tight but I think it's do-able.  One end of the chain can 
  be removed from the tool, wrapped around the pipe and then re-attached for
  tightening.

>    	3- Im planning to remove the pipe, leaving the flange sticking
>    	   out of the cellar floor, and then putting pvc in.
>    	   (I wasnt planing on cutting the pipe and using the cut edge
>    	    for a joint, I was going to use the existing end of the
>    	   pipe)

	This is where you lose me.... can you maybe illustrate what you've
  got now and what you want to do?  I know that graphics aren't easy here but
  even a crude picture might clear things up.  Using the sleeves is by far the
  easiest way to connect plastic to CI.  Connecting plastic to CI using lead
  is a lot more work and, according to some notes I've read here, impossible
  (or at least not recommended).

>    	4- Im planning 3-4 days to remove the old and put in the new
>           (having all the materials on hand prior), Is this insane?
>            I removing the stack, and one bathrooms worth of plumbing,
>            and replacing everything. Everything is exposed.

	Sounds like plenty of time to me.

>        5-  Is there such a thing as a rental shower?
>           Im dismantling the only shower in the house, and its gonna
>            be ripe-city working on soil pipes for 4 days without a
>    	    shower.
 
	Any help you have is going to smell just as bad as you, so don't worry
  about it!!  8^)

							--Mike

existing
--------

basement floor flange -> 4 ft CI -> tee to 1st flr toilet -> 2- 4ft CI ->
tee to 2nd floor toilet -> 3 4ft CI -> attic vent.

I guess you answered the question, let me clarify:

Out of the basement floor comes a CI flange, into which the
CI pipe runs up for the rest of the house. (this is the main exit for
the house sewage). What you are saying is, don't pull the pipe out
of the flange, instead, cut above it and use the clamp-type adapter
between the cut-edge and the new PVC. Right?

I also want to adapt the new run of PVC to the existing CI which
starts at shoulder level in the 2nd floor bathroom, and runs to the roof.
Will the cut and clamp method work there too? (with the CI on top, PVC
on the bottom, Im thinking weight)?

Also another question: Is this type of run ok?:


					    /tee-d into main stack for vent
				           /
					   |
toilet --(5 feet PVC sloped down to tee) ->|
					   |PVC down 15 ft to 45deg elbow
					   |into main stack
					   |
					   \
					    \tee-d into main stack

Once again, thank you, this is really clearing things up.

    

>the house sewage). What you are saying is, don't pull the pipe out
>of the flange, instead, cut above it and use the clamp-type adapter
>between the cut-edge and the new PVC. Right?

	Right.

>I also want to adapt the new run of PVC to the existing CI which
>starts at shoulder level in the 2nd floor bathroom, and runs to the roof.
>Will the cut and clamp method work there too? (with the CI on top, PVC
>on the bottom, Im thinking weight)?

	Yes, it should work fine.  The weight should only be a problem until
the PVC is put into place. (Once in place, it will be in compression and the
system should be stable).  You should temporarily support the upper section of
CI while making the cuts.  This can be done by securing the next flange above
the cut by means of a strap hanger of some type:


			  ^  up through roof
			  |
			 | |
			 |_|
			\___/ <- leaded CI joint
			 | |
			 | |
			 | |
			\___/ 
		*********|*|*******  <-- hanger strap secured to stud
			 | |
			 | |
		---------+++-------   <-- cut line
			 +++
			 +++	<-- neoprene/clamp sleeve
			 | |
			 | |	<-- new PVC
			  |
			  V  to cellar connection

	Maybe blocking of some type would be better than a strap (a strap is
  what I used when I did it) depending on what your situation is.

>Also another question: Is this type of run ok?:
>toilet --(5 feet PVC sloped down to tee) ->|

	Looks fine to me.  A toilet must be within 6' of the vent so it looks
  like you're OK.  I'd offer to come and give you a hand but NJ is a long
  commute for me.  Good luck.

								--Mike

Re: .15
>Also another question: Is this type of run ok?:
>toilet --(5 feet PVC sloped down to tee) ->|

I seem to recall reading somewhere in this conference that the slope is
critical: too steep and the water runs out too fast and doesn't take the
solids away.  Forgive me if you've already thought of this, and have already
worked out the angles etc, but I'd rather bring it to your attention now, than
see you post an urgent "help - my toilet's clogged" note later on.

Henry Gillard - CSC Sydney

    
    	RE: cutting the pipe above the flange
    
    	There are also special rubber hub adapters that will fit *inside*
    the CI hub (flange) and then accept the PVC pipe also.  So you could
    easily remove the CI pipe all the way down to the flange in the cellar
    as you were planning to do in the first place.  Either way will
    work, so it ends up being a matter of preference, or price.  I think
    the rubber couplings are more expensive than the hub adapters.

I think the slope of drainage should be 1/48.  That is, 1" drop in about
4 feet of pipe.

/tom

    re: .19
    Or, to put it another way: 1/4" per foot.

    More Questions:
    1 - If I cut the Soil pipe above the toilet on Floor #2, and 
        at the basement level, and on floor #1 (breaking up the run)
        Will I be able to insert the new PVC in, I thinking that
        in order to fit it in, something is going to have to move
        vertically for it to slide in, or will the flushness of
        the cut edge to PVC (rubber cupling) allow me to insert
        the PVC. I was looking at the pipes last night, and was
        getting a little nervous about how tight everything was.
        I doubt Ill be able to lift the CI into the roof in order to
        slide in the PVC.
        I hope this made sense.
    2 -
        It looks like a need to cross 2 studs on the outer wall
        with a 2.5 inch vent pipe from the toilet soil run to join the
        main stack, Any suggestions? 
    
    3 -
    	I was planning to use 4 inch PVC for the stack replacement.
        it will force me to have the wall out about an inch. (the existing
        CI is 4 inch, so the framing for is in place already.
        A tub is going broadside against the wall on floor #2 with
        the soil pipe in it. 3 inch PVC will fit inside the stud
        wall with no bulge, Is this an idea to persue, I don't want
        to slow up the house's sewage flow or raise the chances of
        gloggage. (the 3 inch would be from the floor#1 up through the
        roof as the main stack, the basement would be 4inch PVC 
        with an adapter to 3inch for the floor #1 to celing floor #2
    	run. ie:
    
attic		    -------------------------
    			|
       			|  4 inch PVC (1 ft) to rubber cupling to 4
    			|  inch cut CI.
    			|  3 to 4 inch PVC adapter
    			|
 		     -------------------------- 
    			|
    			|  3 inch PVC
       			|
    			|  adapter 4 to 3inch
1st fl		    --------------------------
    			|
    			|  4 inch PVC
    			|
    			|
basement floor	    --------------------------
                
    
    The 3 inch section would be draining the 2nd fl. tub/sink/toilet
    the 4 inch basement section would be draining the 1st floor
    sink/toilet/kitchen sink/basement sink.
    
    Also, Im going to the put together everything for the main event
    this weekend, any suggestions
    or additions?.
    
    1 - all the PVC
    2 - PVC adhesive
    3 - renting the soil pipe cutter
    4 - mitre box/ hack saw for PVC
    5 - Pipe hanger (for second floor CI
    6 - cuplers
    7 - sledge hammer, sawzall
    8 - smelling salts ( just kidding)
               
    
    thanks,
    

    
    	RE: .21 - 1) > I hope this makes sense.
    
    	Well not really.  Are concerned about connecting the two pipes
    	together, or getting the PVC pipe up from the basement to the
    	CI connection.  If the former, you should have no problem since
    	the rubber connector is fairly pliable.  In the latter case,
    	I believe you said the walls were exposed, so you could cut
    	the PVC into smaller sections and then reconnect them with 
    	pvc couplings.
    
    
    	RE: .21 - 3
    
    	You can check the code in your local area (if your planning
    	on getting this inspected) but, although your plan is possible
    	it is also against national code to restrict the vent in such
    	a way.  According to code you would have to stay with a four
    	inch vent in-between the two floors.

Re: .21
>    Also, Im going to the put together everything for the main event
>    this weekend, any suggestions
    
Yeah, I suggest that you postpone the job for a week or so until you have
firmly decided :-
a) what you want to do
b) how you are going to do it
c) whether or not your plans meet code specifications. (see .22)

OK, I appreciate that you are probably "all psyched-up" and you feel excited
at the prospect of starting the job, and you probably have some nebulous
mental picture of the "Ideal Home" effect which you wish to produce, BUT, with
less than 24 hours to the kick off there are too many unanswered questions for
my taste.

p.s. I've f**ked up so many jobs by rushing them, that I recognise the symptoms.

Henry Gillard - CSC Sydney

Well, you were right, with all the plan changing, I aborted the mission
after talking to the inspecter. He said the main stack couldn't be
both PVC and CI, it had to be one or the other. (which wasnt
revealed in the original plans by him or me) So, Even if I
had sucessfully put everything in, I would have to undo everything
and annoy him in the process. So, now everything is mapped out
(like a code freeze, no pun intended) and I will be getting
my act together this week for another attempt this next weekend.
I very glad I checked before I leapt.
so, heres the Ok-ed scoop
(everything but the basement floor stub is PVC)


	||roof
	||
	||------- 1 inch vent from 2nd floor sink/tub and 1st floor sink
	||
	||// 3 inch Y to 2.5 inch Y (sink) to 2.5 inch Y to tub
	||
	||   straight run to 1st flr ceiling
	||
	||
	||
	||
	||
	\\
	 \\
	  \\  45 degree turn to 3.5ft straight to 45 turn back up
	  ||
	  ||
	  ||
	  ||// 2.5in branch to kitchen
	  ||
	  ||
	  ||// branch to 1st floor toilet and sink (toilet 3in, sink 2.5in)
	  ||
	  CI pipe in floor
    

Wall Street Journal, Thursday, 22-Sep-88, Page One

			Highway Robbery!
		Aluminum Thieves Take Metal and Run
Current High Price Attracts Pilferers to Road Signs, Guardrails and Light Poles
	by James P. Miller, Staff reporter of the Wall Street Journal

Don't look now, but robbers are dismantling America's highways. 

In places like Louisiana and Illinois fast-lane entrepreneurs are
unbolting guardrails and ripping down highway signs.  In
California also, highway bandits have made off with about
$200,000 of the material so far this year.  "It's a real
problem," worries a spokeswoman for California's Department of
Transportation. 

These thieves aren't just cranks after a "Yield" sign -- they
want what the sign is made out of: aluminum.  The daily market
price of the lightweight metal more than tripled between 1986 and
this June, begetting an aggressive, new form of recycling.  The
price has fallen since, but scrap yards are still paying about 55
cents a pound for low-grade aluminum, up from 40 cents a year
ago.  The lust for the metal isn't limited to highway robbery,
either.  Farmers report pilfered irrigation pipes and even some
Air Force bomber parts have disappeared.  It's a crime wave
reminiscent of the copper, silver and bronze fevers of a decade
ago. 

Better Take in the Dog Dish 

California has issued a public plea to motorists, asking them to
report suspicious roadside "work crews" operating without
official vehicles or uniforms.  In other states, workers are now
welding -- rather than just bolting -- guardrails in place. 

But crimes marches on.  "If crews don't get to an accident scene
fast after somebody's knocked down a light pole, [the light
poles] disappear, too," says a transportation department
spokesman in Illinois. 

Off the road, irrigation pipe had been vanishing from California
farmers' fields.  Thieves have scavenged Carl Voss's 70-acre
vegetable farm near San Jose four times, taking a total of 4,000
feet of pipe worth $12,000. 

Elsewhere, steely-eyed crooks have raided construction sites for
scaffolding.  "They're taking aluminum siding off vacant homes,
stealing the gutters, anything," says a Detroit detective. 

Pssst, Got Any Extra Coke Cans? 

In Washington State, thieves have taken aluminum seats stored
outside Seattle's Kingdome.  The police there are investigating
the theft of 15 aluminum bunks from a ship-repair facility and
7,000 pounds of ingots stolen by robbers who cut through a
machining plant's wall.  They recently looked into the theft of
400 aluminum crab trays from a fish-processing plant and $10,000
of porthole covers destined for a cruise ship.  In Oakland,
Calif., meanwhile, robbers swiped an aluminum-allow submarine
door from a machine shop.  Such items are worth only about $50
when sold as scrap. 

In Los Angeles, Detective Robert Readhimer calls the surge in
aluminum snatching "tremendous."  His department just recovered
100,000 pounds of aluminum parts used to attach cluster bombs to
the wings of U.S. Air Force planes.  The suspect arrested is an
employee of the company that makes the parts.  About 70% of the
department's metals-related arrests are of employees making
moonlight requisitions from their own companies. 

It isn't just big-time crooks who are playing the metals games.
The city of Mountain View, Calif., recently cracked down on
"organized rings" stealing bags of aluminum soda cans left
outside for recycling.  And even awnings have become the object
of larcenous desire.  "People go on vacation and when they come
back their aluminum patio covers have been stolen," says
Detective Readhimer. 

===

My father forwarded this article to me.  Dad, my daughter, and I
did all the worked described by DCL in the reply .3 above.

About 18 months ago I bought a typical, 20x40 split entry in North Chelmsford,
Mass. The house is about 18 years old, as are most of the homes in the
development. In June a water pipe sprung a tiny leak in the basement ceiling.
We called a plumber who came right over and fixed the problem. He told my
wife that he spends a lot of time in our area on similar problems - due to
age of the copper pipes and the hardness of the water.
Monday nite, we sprung 2 more leaks, fortunately right next to one another.
The same plumber came and fixed it again. This time he told my wife that we
should replace all of our cold water pipes and add a pressure reducing
valve - I haven't spoken to him directly, all of this is second hand. He said
he would come in and give us an estimate. He did show my wife the pipe he
replaced and she agreed that the inside looked pretty corroded. He claims that
by now most of the pipes are paper thin.
A friend of ours in town said that this plumber recommended the same thing
to another family in town that she knows. 
I will definitely have him give us an estimate. There really isn't that much
piping. Following the ff is a diagram of where the pipes go: 

               kitchen       washer   bathroom
               2nd flr      1st floor   2nd floor
	-----------------------------------------------------------
	|        XXX          XXX       XXX                       |
   H/W  |XX                                                       |
 heater |                                                         |
        |                                                         |
        |                                                         |
        |                                                         |
        |                                                         |
	|_________________________________________________________|
        XX
      water pipes enter here
       on 1st floor

My questions are:
	- Do you think this guy is overreacting?
	- Why just the cold water pipes?
	- What do you think a reasonable price would be?
	- Are there any other alternatives?
	- What is the purpose of the pressure reducing valve?

Thanks for any comments,
-Peter

PS - I spent all morning reading the many plumbing notes, and really thought
this should be a new note. Move it if you disagree.

    
    
    I think if he was over reacting you would'nt be springing leaks.
    Your lucky that they have been small. Hard water (usually high in
    iron) does a number on copper pipes and hot water heaters and furnaces.
    The reason the cold water pipes go first is beacause the mineral
    content is reduced when heated in the area of 160 degrees.
    The reducing valve is probably so you don't blow your heating system
    or the rest of your water pipes before you fix it.
    If your water is that bad have PVC piping installed instead of copper,
    it is cheaper and very easy to work with, even do it yourself.
    
    good luck
    

    Unless I'm mistaken, I though that hard water would CLOG pipes,
    not corrode them. The problem is acidic water, which corrodes copper
    pipe (I'm not an expert, so correct if someone is better versed,
    feel free to correct). Age shouldn't have that much to do with it
    (my parents home is 35 yrs with original pipes). A pressure reducer
    would lower the pressure in the pipes so if the pipe was already
    weak, it wouldn't be overly stressed. That it doesn't effect the
    hot water pipes is interesting, because they would usually show
    problems first, but perhaps its a question of usage (you use more
    cold water overall than hot, so more flows through the cold water
    pipes). A good analysis of the water would be in order to really
    determine the problem, but if the pipes are as corroded as described,
    you may end up replacing them.
    
    Eric
    
    

    re .1
    Several of the other plumbing notes in this file mention that PVC is
    bad for supply pipes, and should only be used as drains. Some of the
    notes mentioned polybutyl pipe.
    

    .2 is correct, most likely. Acid water is a common problem and leads
    to just the problem you mention. Another symptom is blue or green
    staining in your bathtub or sinks. I had exactly the problem you
    stated in pipes just about the same age. One hot water pipe and
    one cold. There is a great place to get water tested and the correct
    equipment to neutralize your water in Ayr. The name is in another
    note in this file. When I get time to look it up I'll re-enter it.
    
    The pressure reducer might help to cut down on the leaks in thin
    pipes, but, it won't stop the corrosion.
    
    Alan

I cannot help you with the prices of labour but I can answer some
of the questions.

Pressure reducing valves, they limit the line pressure to where
ever you set them; I set ours to 40 lbs. Reducing the pressure
will protect valves from leaks and take out the "bang" when a
solenoid in a cloths or dish washer suhts off. If there's a
possible leak, that bang will pop the leak. We have ours between
the water meter and the water filter.

If you have automatic lawn sprinklers, you'd want to have full
pressure from the water company.

A filter will help remove crud before your water heater and keep
that stuff from corroding your hot water tank.

As for replacing your pipes, the water pressure MAY buy you some
time from further leaks; eventually, you'd have to replace the
pipes. Is C-PVC pipes ok in your area? The beige type C-PVC is
hot water rated and is a lot easier to instal than copper or iron
pipe. The biggest hassles are the baths cause you have to rip out
the tiles to replace the Cu pipes there.

cal hoe

    CPVC pipes are resistant to hard and acidic water - I recommend them
    if they are legal for you.
    
    You can get an acid neutralizer from Sears as well as other water
    conditioning companies.  It adds a neutralizing chemical to the
    water to raise the pH level.  You have to keep the chemical
    tank filled.
    
    I suggest having your water tested, and pay attention to the
    pH level.  If it is 5.5 or lower, you have a problem.  (Anything
    between 5.5 and 7 is not acidic enough to cause problems, above 7
    means it's alkaline.
    
    				Steve

    	If you do replumb, check into a new material recently approved
    for use here is MA.  I think it is polybutadiene.  It is also quite
    chemically inert, but unlike CPVC is is flexible and comes in 50'
    and 100' rolls.  I don't know what the price is, but is very easy
    to install.  My uncle just had his large house plumbed with the
    stuff.
                                                  
    				=Ralph=

    I don't think the plumber is overreacting when he suggests replacing
    the pipes.   You've already had 3 leaks, you'll just keep getting
    more, and because of the perverse nature of these things the worst
    leak will start an hour after you've gone away somewhere for the
    weekend.  You're lucky you've had some warnings.  Don't ignore them!
    
    I can't help you with prices, but if the plumber is competent and
    honest, don't fret the price too much.  If he's good, he's worth
    what he charges.
    
    I'd be tempted to go with plastic pipe.  I've been a copper pipe
    traditionalist, but now I'm leaning more and more toward plastic.
    See what the plumber has to say about it.  

      I, too, recommend CPVC.  The beauty of it is that you will feel
    like a master plumber with your first plumbing job! 
    
    -Jim

    N. Chelmsford has water that is very tough on pipes and hot water
    heaters. Hot water heaters have a life of 5 - 6 years, how do I
    know, just replaced one. Check with the plumbing inspector, I do
    not think you can legally use PVC for systems that carry water for
    consumption. It was used earlier but not now. I could be wrong but
    I doubt it.
    

    re: .10
    There are all kinds of plastic pipe; some may be legal, some not.
    The plumber (or the plumbing inspector) will know which is which.

With all of the appropriate disclaimers about the law and plumbing:

	I don't disagree with any of the previous but I would add that 
perhaps now would be a good time to learn how to solder copper pipes 
yourself.  It's great if you can get your plumber over as soon as you 
discover you need him. It's also great if you can fix it youself 
(albeit temporarily in this particular case). You've already paid the 
guy twice for what is essentially a patch job. I'm not saying I 
wouldn't hire a "real" plumber to do the right thing and redo the whole 
job correctly. I am saying that it's nice to be able to do the 
emergency (and normal as well) stuff youself. 

Typical scenario - Leak happens on friday night, your regular plumber 
just left for Bermuda, he can afford it, and now your left with 
searching through the yellow pages for someone who is going to charge 
what the traffic will bear - "Do you want running water this weekend or 
not?" he asks.

For the cost of a single, simple repair job you could buy youself 
a propane torch, solder, fittings, and a length of pipe to practice on, 
a book that would give some directions, with enough left over for a 
steak to barbecue on the grill in celebration of a job well done.

An (unqualified) opinion,

Chuck - an amateur plumber

re .12

Yep, I agree that you should be able to at least do a simple repair of a 
leaky pipe yourself, so that you won't be "stuck" without water for 
any amount of time.  There's really nothing to it, provided you consider
yourself at least slightly handy.

re. illegal plumbing-  this seems to be one of the most UN-enforced laws
                       of all time

    Chelmsford in genral seems to have very rough water. My dads house
    was on RTE 129 where APOLLO now sits. Before they demolished the
    house, we removed things like the Hot Water heater a new boiler
    etc., and as we were doing that the copper pipes were collapsing
    in our hansds. The house was close to 25 years old but never had
    any pipes replaced, but he would have had to redo th whole house
    over if he has stayed. That was east chelmsford, always had rusty
    water from the pump house. My father in law is a plumber, and his
    brothers too. They won't put anything other than copper into 
    a new or older house for water supplies. For that matter the towns
    in the area will only run copper mains from the street to your house.
    Copper is so easy to work with, so is plastic and cpvc. I feel more
    comfortable with copper pipes there ar more chemicals that go into
    making the plastic piping. If you could drink coffee from a styrofoam
    cup or a glass mug, which seems to provide a better tasting cup.
    The same is true with glass and plastic soda bottles, the soda in
    the glass bottle always seems to taste better, crisper maybe. Anyway
    just another assistant plumbers opinion, i would personally do all
    the work my-self in copper then put a filtering system in from
    a reputable company to remove the acid. I'll bet you'll find other
    stuff in your house that will need replacing that the acid has already
    eaten thru, valves, boiler, hot water heater. Be careful once that
    plumber gets to those pipes don't be surprized that he doesn't find
    other problems elsewhere.
    
    
    Good luck !!!
    
    

    I also live in Chelmsford.  I remember reading an article in the
    local paper when we first moved there (about four years ago) about
    how the acidity of the water was leaching copper from the pipes
    (causing people with blonde hair to have green-tinged blonde hair).
    The article also said that Chelmsford was going to start treating
    their water to reduce the acidity level.  Since I have seen nothing
    further to indicate that the town has intentions of dealing with
    the problem, and my bathtub and sink are still turning green, I
    guess this never happened.  Can a problem like this be treated in
    the main water supply?
    
    I have been concerned since reading this article, that our pipes
    would have a short life and this has been validated by the base
    note.  Will installing my own water treatment system do the trick,
    and, if so is this a costly solution?  Any recommendations for
    reputable water treatment companies?
    
    Valerie

    Check out note 1674.
    
    I highly recommend that Ayer outfit ( A F Water ). They tested my
    water, recommended only what I needed (as opposed to everyone else
    who wanted to add at least a grands worth of softener) and installed
    it as scheduled, neatly and cheaply.
    
    Alan

  There was a report on either  ch 4, 5, or 7 last week, and it ponited
    out what to watch for in these water filter companies. Have your
    water tested by an independent water testing lab that only does
    testing and doesn't sell hardware. They will tell you what type
    of equipment you need and suggest if you wish who to go to. Then
    al least you can shop for prices on equipment and know what you
    want and whos telling you the truth. It worked for me I had them
    all in to test my water 3 out of 10 quoted exactly what the water
    testing company stated. The other 7 threw in the works and were
    questionable when I called the better bussiness buearu.
    
    Good Luck !!
    
    
    P.S. If your handy sears sells all the filter stuff, you just need
    to know what you need. They also have a free water testing service.
    Pickup a testing kit at your local sears store, following the
    instrucions mail it in, they pay the cost, they will mail you
    the test results, and of course a reccomendation for their equipment.
    But al least that gives you another test to go by.
    
    
    

    re: .17 & .16
    
    A F Water is a full service outfit in that they will test your water
    sell you what you need and install it.  However, they are completely
    honest. The test they did matched (in fact showed slightly lower
    levels) the independent one I had done. They recommended LESS
    equipment than anyone else AND showed me exactly how to install
    it, so I could decide if I wanted to DIM (Do it myself). I
    can't recomment them to strongly. But the old man is still a
    character.
    
    Alan

So far, so good.
    I have demolished all the cast iron in the house, and run PVC in
    its place. The hub into the floor took 4 hours with a chisel, sawzall,
    and noseplug to coax out the iron pipe and lead stub. (I used lead
    wool and oakum to snug in the PVC new hub there)
    Most of the branch runs are done, I just took my first shower and
    used the toilet. No leaks. I have to re-run the iron kitchen run
    because the prior owner had a near non-slope in the run, and it
    is filled with black spongy alien-like smelly grunge.
    As for time elapsed, its been 2 four day weekends plus nearly
    every night for 3 hours to cut/measure/dryfit/glue/pray
    the PVC. My neighbor had the same job done by a plumber in ABS
    cost=$7000. My cost (counting vacation pay) so far ($1500).
    (that includes copper pipe for water too.)
    
    Well, I'll let you know in a few weeks how it ended up.
    Hopefully Ill be not underwater, and passed the inspection.
    
    Cheers
    Pete
    

    I have a dripping valve and would like to know how to fix it.  
    
    The cold water intake valve on my hot water heater drips when I
    open it up.  As a result I've had to live with low hot water pressure.
    I'd like to fix it and don't know how.
        
    On a separate but related topic,  I've seen few notes about plubming
    pipe and fixture repairs in the conference (other than to say it is 
    illegal in Mass!)  even though I've been following the conference for 
    years.  I was wondering how many noters actually do their own 
    plumbing installation/repairs (other than replacing the washers
    on the sink faucets).

    The valve drips around the stem?  I assume it's a standard 
    globe valve.  There should be what looks like a hex nut that the
    stem goes through.  Take a wrench and tighten that nut, which will
    compress the packing around the stem.  Don't tighten too much, or
    you won't be able to turn the handle!  That should do the trick.
    You may need to tighten some, turn the handle back and forth to
    seat the packing, and tighten some more.  If after several attempts
    it doesn't work, you can replace the packing by closing the valve,
    then totally unscrewing that nut and lifting it up.  Take some new
    packing material (you won't need much), wind it around the stem,
    and replace the nut.  Go to a hardware store and ask for "valve
    stem packing", to get what you need.
    I *THINK* you can do this without shutting off the water, assuming
    you close the valve before you start.  It's been a while since I've
    done it.  You might want to shut off the water, just to make sure....

    
    There should be a nut on the valve where the valve stem enters the
    body of the valve.  Take a wrench and carefully snug the nut down.
    This should stop the leak.  Make sure that you can turn the valve
    handle after tightening the nut as you may stop the leak and also
    stop the operation of the valve.

    RE: .1 & .2, as discussed, a snug on the valve should do it. As
    far as your second question, I learned plumbing while in my first
    house, after paying a plumber more than I made a hour to fix a simple
    problem (10 yrs. ago). One starts simple, and then learns a little
    more each time. My last major plumbing project was to redo a kitchen,
    where all the facilities had to be moved. It takes a while, and
    some practice, but plumbing is fairly straight foward, unless you
    run into a wierd problem (sink in island, no vent near by-the work
    looks strange, but it works). It beats buying the plumber a new
    car for simple work.
    
    Eric

    1. Check any of a large number of books on home repairs.  They are
    available in bookstores, many hardware stores, and libraries.  A
    book will give you complete, illustrated directions on how to get
    through most basic plumbing crises.  If you have never done this
    before, a few pictures (before the water starts squirting!) are
    much more informative than a brief description.
    
    2.  If it is dripping through the faucet (rather than around the
    stem), you need to replace the washer.  Go to the hardware store
    and get a package of assorted faucet washers, a basic plumbing book,
    and an adjustable wrench (if you don't have one).  Basically, you
    are going to take the faucet apart, replace the rubber part that
    wears, and put it back together.  Takes about three minutes -- the
    second time you do it!
    
    Regards,
    Russ

    To round this out (you guys have done a great job covering all the
    fixables)...
    
    If none of the replies works and you replace the valve, I suggest
    replacing it with a ball valve.  I have replaced almost all the
    shutoffs in my house with these and anticipate that I'll never have
    a dripper again.

    
    This happens to be a subject I know a great deal about (particularly
    since buying the Baldwinville Moneypit  :^{.
    
    To answer some of your original questions...
    
    .0>	- Do you think this guy is overreacting?
    
    Personally, it sounds like a problem to me.  It can only get
    worse.  However, you should think through all your options
    before jumping into anything.
    
    .0>	- Why just the cold water pipes?
    
    I can't understand why "just" the cold water pipes.  Hot water pipes
    will decay, too.  However, your cold water pipes are used for drinking
    water, and since the house is 18 years old they are soldered with
    lead.  Undoubtedly the acidity of the water (I assume that it is
    acidic) is disolving some of solder and putting it in your drinking
    water.  If I were you, I would consider using bottled water for
    all drinking and cooking, until you replace the pipes.
    
    .0>	- What do you think a reasonable price would be?
    
    Well ... that depends on the type of materials you use (copper,
    polybutylene, CPVC, iron, etc.), and the plumber's hourly rate.
    Personally, I have never used a plumber.  I wouldn't want to
    pay more than $500 to have a plumber do that.
    
    .0>	- Are there any other alternatives?
    
    Yes, definitely!  DIY!  In my house I have worked on my plumbing
    and heating systems with copper, brass, iron, pvc, cpvc, and
    polybutylene (it's a great house to own if you want to learn about
    plumbing ;-).  Without a doubt, polybutylene is the most versatile,
    convenient piping to use for supply pipes (both hot and cold). 
    It's also one of the most durable in a situation like yours.
    
    Copper piping is expensive and it takes time to sweat, particularly
    if you use lead-free solder which has a much higher melting point
    than the lead stuff.  Polybutylene is flexible, which makes it
    easier to use and fairly burst resistant if water freezes in it.
    Also, since it uses compression fittings, rather than glue, it is
    much more pleasant to use than cpvc and glue and it can be taken 
    apart if changes need to be made.  
    
    There are compression fittings made of cpvc that can be used for cpvc,
    copper, or polybutylene, but I do *not* recommend them - they are
    difficult to work with and are almost impossible to remove.  Buy the
    grey polybutylene fittings (available at Spags and Grossman's) made by
    U.S. Brass (funny, huh?).  Other supplies you will need if you do
    this job with polybutylene are a plastic pipe cutter (get it or
    you'll regret it!), an  adjustable crescent wrench, and silicone
    grease for threads and compression fittings (not necessary but it
    helps seal, and makes it easier to undo if necessary).
    
    Iron is probably more durable than copper, but you probably won't
    like the color of the water if your water is so acidic.  Also,
    too much iron isn't good for men (toxicity in women is uncommon.
    
    .0>	- What is the purpose of the pressure reducing valve?
    
    Like others said, It's probably to reduce the pressure on your
    old weakened pipes.  Might be a good idea if it's not too expensive,
    and you plan to keep your old pipes for a while.
    

    I do most of my own plumbing installation/repairs.  It's generally
    so simple it's amazing.  Before I learned how to do it plumbers
    were like magicians.
    
    So one day I bought an eight foot section of copper pipe, a whole
    pile of copper fittings, a torch, and miscellaneous other stuff,
    and planned an entire day just to learn how to solder copper pipes
    together.
    
    Well I started out cutting off a couple of pieces of the copper
    pipe, cleaned and fluxed as per directions, lit the torch, and,
    with expectations of failure put the pieces together as per directions.
    
    It took all of 30 seconds to realize how easy this really was, and
    the rest of the day was spent in vigorous relaxation. Since then
    I've worked with all the standard plumbing stuff, right up to large
    2 inch diameter stuff, re-plumbed our kitchen, rough-plumbed our
    bathroom, etc.  Now I view plumbers as hired slaves who save me
    time (at my expen$e).
    
    Try it.  It's fun.

    The single most important item that seems to bite beginners is that
    once you've cleaned the surface to be soldered, DO NOT touch it!!
    There is enough oil on your (even clean) fingers to cause the solder
    not to take and you wind up with a leak.
    
    Also, put some flux on the cleaned area asap to prevent any start
    of new oxidation.

    - Valve fixed - all that was required was a wrench to tighten the
    packing.
    
    PLUMBING IS SIMPLE.  With the info in these replies and a book I got
    from the library, I also fixed a car radiator pipe with a hole in it
    (practiced cutting and sweating pipe as well).  It was a lot easier
    than I ever thought it would be. 
    
    All the replies were great! Thanks for the info.

    Gary (Your journeyman plumber)

    	As my friend the plumber says, there are only three things you
    need to know to be a plumber: Payday is thurday, don't bite your
    finger nails, and sh!* flows down hill!
    
    	A brain surgon come home from an 18 hour shift in the operating
    room to find his kitchen sink leaking all over the floor.  He calls
    a plumber who fixes it in half an hour and hand the doctor a $75
    bill.  The doctor is upset at the price and shouts:  I'm a brain
    surgon and I even I don't make $150 an hour.
    	The plumber turns and says:  Either did I when I was a brain
    surgon!

    There was one reply earlier that commented that if the plumber is
    honest then the price will probably be fair, or something to that
    effect.  I strongly disagree with this.  Yes, if you have a working
    relationship with a plumber and his price is SLIGHTLY higher than
    others, then use him.  The relationship is worth a couple of extra
    dollars if he is giving you good service.  However, it is not a
    good idea to go forward with anything of this nature without getting
    several estimates.  How are you going to know if you got the best
    price otherwise?
    
    I am always skeptical of prices until I have done some comparison
    shopping.  This holds for services or products.
    
    I just moved to North Chelmsford in May.  My plumber indicated that
    the water here is indeed rough on pipes.  As I work on the house,
    I may look into the polybutilene (sp?) as a gradual replacement
    of my water pipes.  Is there a conversion connector to connect it
    with exiting copper piping?
    
    Ed..
    

    
    .20> I may look into the polybutilene (sp?) as a gradual replacement
    .20> of my water pipes.  Is there a conversion connector to connect it
    .20> with exiting copper piping?
    
    The grey polybutylene compression fittings will work with polybutylene
    copper and cpvc.  However, due to the different coefficients of
    expansions of copper and polybutylene, you may need to retighten
    the connections after a while if you use them for hot water.  Note
    that these are compression fittings so you should not tighten them
    just until snug.
    
    -tm

    I have a question.  In Mass, we are in a socialist state that believes
    it knows what is best for us.  In this vein, it is against the law
    to do our own plumbing.  How have most of you gotten around this
    law when you have had to have it inspected.  I am beginning plans
    for a kitchen renovation and am certain the inspector will get
    involved.  I do not want to pay a plumber if I can avoid it, as
    this will increase the cost of the job.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    	When I tried to get around it I got a "Cease Work" noticed posted
    on my door.  The only way to get around it is not to take any permits
    out and don't get caught.  Now I always get permits....
    					=R=

      Mr Moderator, et al.,
      
      Perhaps  its  none  of  my  business,  but  I  like to follow this
      conference and would hate to see it shut down. In this context may
      I  suggest  that all notes/replys requesting/providing information
      on how to circumvent Mass (or any other) laws should be deleted. 
      
      My  intent  is not to offend anyone.  I agree that this particular
      law is bad.

    Here in NJ, we can work on our own residences as long as we pull
    the appropriate permits. Its illegal to work on any other house
    (including ones you own, but dont live in) without a license.
    Actually the plumbing inspecter has been
    a very nice advice giver, in terms of how he'd do the job, and what
    he wants and does'nt want to see. As a matter of fact, when I applied
    for a permit, He called me and asked to come down and show me what
    he expected. (I haven't been inspected yet, so maybe i should temper
    the praise). Also, my framer told me that for electrical inspections
    in NJ, if you call for an inspection, and they dont show up within
    48 hours, you automatically pass the inspection and can close up
    the walls. (scary?) The framer said he has seen it happen.
    

i did this: i didn't want to tackle the whole job.  so i did the easy
stuff, the contractor did the hard stuff and finished up.  he pulled a
permit for the whole job,  looked over my stuff and said "nice job".  the
inspector looked it all over and said "nice job".  i said "he must be a
good ((fil in contractor type here))".  :^) 

couldn't you do something similar with a cooperative (that's the trick) 
plumber?

in my case it seemed ok, why get two permits?  in the extreme case you 
would do everything and some guy with a license gets a permit for it.  now 
it starts to seem like you're doing something wrong, but hey, if it meets 
his standards what's the dif?  anyway, if it meets the inspectors standards 
why should it be against the law anyway?  i guess i'll never understand.

craig

    I agree with many of the points that have been raised, and I sympathize
    with the author of .11.  Still, there is a difference between saying
    that "connecting pipes is easy" and "plumbing is easy."
    
    For some crafts, the skill is in the technique.  Judging from recent
    notes, this is true of taping sheetrock.  I think it's also true
    of auto body work, finish carpentry, and a number of other fields.
    
    For other crafts, the techniques and mechanics are trivial, and
    it's the knowledge that's important.  The really hard part of fixing
    an auto electrical problem is diagnosing the problem; once you've
    done that, fixing the problem is usually easy.  It takes almost
    no skill to tighten a wire nut, or screw a wire to a switch.  That
    doesn't mean that anyone who's capable of replacing a wall switch
    is qualified to be an electrician.
    
    I think it's foolish to require a plumber for fixing leaks, replacing
    fixtures, or doing minor installations.  That doesn't mean that anyone
    who can sweat a pipe is also capable of doing an entire design and
    installation from scratch, or knows enough to get the right venting in
    place. (It doesn't mean that anyone who's a licensed plumber is
    that competant, either.) 
    
       Gary

    Regarding the ph and how much is 'BAD' the following is how it was
    explained to me by a chemistry wiz:
    
    Nuetral ph is 7.0 - no more, no less. Anything other than 7.0
    regardless of how much, is bad. Usually private well water in
    new england has LOW ph (meaning less than 7.0). This is acidic
    in nature. Any acidity in household water WILL CORRODE PIPES!
    Usually ph conditioning is recommended if the ph varies from 7.0
    by .30 or more (inclusive). The thing to remember is that
    the corrosion of pipes is DIRECTLY proportional to the acidity
    of the water. In other words, a ph of 6.0 would corrode pipes
    MUCH faster than a ph of 6.5. (although it is NOT linear, it
    does corrosion does INCREASE as the ph number decreases).
    
    Thats why some houses that 'have bad ph' never had a problem in
    30 years, and others spring leaks in 10 years- the ph is lower
    in value in the 10 year house.
    
    My suggestion: treat the water. A neutralizer is about $350 and
    can be installed in a couple of hours. You WILL notice the taste
    significantly better with a tiny investment- AND the pipes will
    be happy! 8-)
    
    Mark

    Re:  base note.
    
    Did the copper pipes leak close to an elbow, tee, or other fitting?
    
    I've seen this happen in a 20-year old Westford house, the pipe
    became paper-thin right where it entered the sweat fitting.
    
    If this is the case, a pressure regulator will help, because the
    turbulence of the water as it flows through a discontinuity (like
    an elbow or tee) increases the mechanical and chemical wear on
    the pipe near the fitting.  (As a side benefit, your supply
    plumbing will be quieter as well).
    
    Re:  lead from the sweated joints.  Water departments say that
    this is a problem for the first few years after installation.
    After (five?) years, additional lead is not leached from the
    joints.  So for an 18-year old house this would not be an issue.
    
    Of course, if copper is used for the replacement, lead-free
    solder would be the way to go.  Also, you should spec the heaviest
    grade of copper tubing -- I beleieve there are three thicknesses,
    and the house was probably originally built with a cheaper grade.
    
    dq
    

    The plumbing/structural/electric all passed!
    The only snag prior to inspection was a galvanized steel kitchen
    run with 0 pitch snapped when I tried to get the cleanout off,
    so I had to rerun PVC there, which means I have just replaced ALL
    the plumbing in the house.
    
    AYAQ (and yet another question.)
)
        Ive got this stone dual-tub wash sink in the basement (utility sink.
    The drain is puttied to hell (expoxy) and I have to put in a new
    trap anyway because the tap-in to the stack is higher than the
    drain.The drain assembly looks like an oval cup (where both tub
    holes empty into) which goes to the downpipe to the trap.)
    local plumbing stores are saying forget it, get a new tub they dont
    make drains like that now, and getting the old one off will probably
    crack the tub, and the holes are non standard anyway.
    Any ideas for waht to do?
    - Where to get a new drain assembly?
    - How to fudge with modern hardware a new drain.
    
    thanks for all your help, it has worked out!
    Pete
    

    I would think you ought to be able to make up some sort of T drain
    connection with PVC pipe under the set tubs to lead off to the trap.
    A plumber might not be able to do the job economically, but if you
    have to spend a whole day futzing with it, who cares if you don't?
    I'm finding that more and more, the mentality is "replace the unit".
    Nobody thinks about fixing anything.  Given a little ingenuity,
    I don't see why you can't fix the drains on those tubs.  Sure, youn
    may not be able to buy a standard part off the shelf to do it, but
    I bet you can create something that will work.

I need advice on closing up a home in Maine for the winter. This is a year
round house, with oil FHW heat, so I will obviously need to have this system
drained also. (I plan to have our heating/plumbing person take care of this.)

At the present, the house is unfurnished, but I would like to start bringing
my furniture up there over the winter (so I can move in my cellar). I would
appreciate hearing any advice/problems that you may have had, as I have never
done this before. 

The house is an old cape, with fieldstone basement and crawlspace under the
ell where the kitchen is. Heating system is about 15 - 20 years old, but I 
don't want to upgrade since I am not planning to use the house winters, and 
there are two woodstoves. Hot water is electric, and of course there is an
electric pump for well, and a septic.

1. Can/should I leave the electricity on in the house? Refrigerator?

2. Will there be problems when I want the heat turned on again?

3. I will not leave any food products in the house to attract rodents - will
   they still want to move in?

Any other hints will be welcome!

Thanks,

Joseph

Leave moth balls generously distributed over the floors.

    1) Shutdown the refrigerator (leave the door open).  Most fridges
    don't work right at very low temperatures.
    
    2) It is easy to overlook things with hidden water in them that
    can freeze and bust - canned food, vases, plant pots with dirt in
    them, bottled goods, latex paint, some cleaners & liquid soaps.
    
    3) If you don't want to leave lights on or power an alarm, you might
    as well kill the power, although there's no compelling reason to
    do so.
    
    4) If your well has a captive air tank in the house, be sure to
    drain it.

      The rodents will have already moved in for the winter if they're
    going to. I would say they will come in with food in the house or
    not. (they need the shelter).
      You can't drain the toilets or drain traps because they seal the
    sewer gasses out. You should use RV/Pool (non-toxic) anti-freeze
    in these places; try to get the amounts at about 50/50. This type
    of anti-freeze is available at some hardware stores, at RV stores
    and of course at pool stores. It's not cheap, ~$6/gal but you should
    only need 1 or 2 gallons. You can use auto anti-freeze but it's more
    expensive now, and it kills the benificial bacteria in your septic
    system.
      There is usually no problem restarting everything, providing you
    did a complete job of winterizing. The most common problem is
    forgetting to drain something and finding it broken when you turn

    I keep mine at 45 too because I use it but I've always been uneasy
    that most of the pipes are in the crawlspace.  All I do down there
    is shut the vents, but otherwise it's just uninsulated concrete
    walls and a dirt floor.   I've never had a problem so either the
    ground heat is contained by the house - or - the heat in the house
    is heating the crawspace through the uninsulated floor.  Don't know
    which but I never had a problem through those subzero days last
    Winter. 

    RE: .16  
                     
>    You can't drain the toilets or drain traps because they seal the
>    sewer gasses out. You should use RV/Pool (non-toxic) anti-freeze
>    in these places; 

    We always used to put molasses in the toilet bowl.  It's organic
    and it doesn't freeze.  In the spring, you just flush it away and,
    if anything, you're sweetening the environment rather than poisoning
    it.  :-)
    
    

    E & B Marine has potable antifreeze for $15 a case (6-1 gal jugs).
    You use this full strengh.   I use about 3 gallons to winterize
    my boat.  Pour it into drains (traps) and toilets.  I don't know
    if it is possible with home plumbing (size and amount of antifreeze
    needed) but with the boat I use the water pump to push antifreeze
    through all the plumbing.  Any low spots in the pipes remain filled
    with antifreeze.  It may be possible to put the intake of your pump
    into a gallon or two of antifreeze - bypass any storage tank (including
    the hot water tank) and pump through to each faucet.  Probably
    overkill but..............
    
    Hoping for a short winter

    Frank

    ps.  Just to give you an idea of how far three gallons goes.  
    The boat is 32 feet and has 3 water tanks, a hot water heater
    that must be bypassed, two sinks, shower, and head with holding
    tank that has to be protected also.  Also two bilge pumps and the
    shower pumpout with associated plumbing.
     
    

    re: .36
    
    Copper can come from the water or the pipes. If it is coming from
    the water you'll need a purifier of some sort as .37 mentioned.
    If the copper is coming from the pipes it is, probably, due to 
    acid water. In that case you'll need a neutralizer. If you have
    acid water and don't get a neutralizer, sooner or later you will
    have leaky pipes.
    
    You need to have two samples of water tested. The first sample should
    be first thing in the morning before any other water is run. The
    second sample should be taken after the water has been running for
    ~ 15 mins. If sample 1 has copper and 2 doesn't you're getting your
    copper from the pipes. If 1 & 2 have same amount, you're getting
    it from your water.
    
    Alan

My plumber installed my third zone a couple of months ago, handed me a box to
put on the furnace and told me that he knew I as into electrical work and since
he usually ends up calling an electician, I'd probably want to connect the
third zone myself!  He said just wire it the same way the other boxes are done
and there shouldn't be any problem. He suggested that until I do, I should
simply jumper one circulator to the other, thereby making both zones run off a
single thermostat. 

Well today I finally decided it was time to tackle it and after studying it for
awhile, I thought best to post it here.  I'm sure it's straigt forward...

To start, there are currently 2 boxes on the furnace, made by Honeywell, the
first is where one sets the temperature range as well as having a thermostat
connected to it. I therefore assume it is in charge of turning the furnace on
and off. 

The second box also has a thermostat but connects to the first box.  Again, I'm
assuming when then the thermostat calls for heat, it turns on the pump and tells
the first box to turn on the furnace.

There are also two manual switches that sit between the load and the furnace
controls.  All these swicthes do is split the load into two paths.  I assume
one path is for the furnace motor and the other for the zone pumps, but that's
purely a guess on my part.

So, I want to connect a third box is IDENTICAL to the second.  Besides the
thermostat, it has 6 terminals, layed out as follows:

		+----------------------------------+
		|			4     6	   |
		|	2     1			   |
		|		    3      5	   |
		+----------------------------------+

the way the second box is connected is as follows:

		2	common
		3,5	load 1 (jumpered together) - the other load feeds
			directly into the first box
		6	connected to zone circulating pump
			(also a common goes there and to the first box too)
		4	feeds box 1 @ZB
		1	feeds box 1 @ZC

According to the diagram on the first box, ZB and ZC are "auxiliary terminals
for zone control. See instruction sheet.  All zones must have a common 
disconnect."  naturally I don't have the instruction sheet.

The only thing that has me concerned are ZB and ZC.  It sounds like I would
simply connect the third box to these as well (in parallel).  I'm not sure about
the part that refers to a "... common disconnect".

Can anybody help?

-mark

> I'm not sure about the part that refers to a "... common disconnect".
    
    Language I've seen about a "common disconnect" refers to the emergency
    power switch and/or service disconnect switch.  From one switch (or
    from any one of multiple switches wired in series) it should be
    possible to disable the burner, all pumps, and all associated
    paraphernalia - either as an emergency measure in case of fire, or as a
    personal safety measure for working on the heating system.  I'm not
    sure whether this includes the setback thermostats' clocks, but it was
    convenient for me to disconnect them the same way.  These switches are
    installed as part of the 120V wiring, before any transformers.
    
    I suspect that your instructions are reminding you that, even though
    you're adding an independent zone, with its own pump and thermostat, and
    possibly its own transformer, it must still be disconnectable by the
    same switches that disconnect the rest of the heating system.

talk about a quick reply (and on a weekend no less)...

re: disconnect - makes perfect sense to me

now, if I can only find out about wiring to those 2 mysterious terminal.

-mark

re. .0

I would bet that your current 2 zones are not wired up identically; A heating
contractor told me that my system (since modified) was set up such that
1 thermostat turned on the circulator and burner (usually the 1st floor zone)
when a call for heat is made,and the 2nd thermostat would only turn on its
circulator, and not the burner (usually 2nd floor), when it calls for heat.

The burner would only turn on when the boiler temp reached its lower set
limit.  He said it has something to do with the fact the the first floor
needs more heat generated to keep it at the set temperature (presumably
because heat will rise, making it "easier" for the 2nd floor to heat up)

So, you might want to try to wire up zone 3 the same way zone 2 is wired, but
not in parrallel.  

Can't help with ZB and ZC.

I agree with .1.

Steve

re:-1

I sort of followed what you said until you said to do zone 3 like zone 2 but
not in parallel.  What it all comes down to is I've got these 2 wires and don't
know where they should go.  I think they should go into the zone 1 box but the
terminals I want them to go to are already occupied (ZB and ZC).  Maybe my best
bet is to simply give Honeywell a call...

-mark

    FWIW- 
    It may not be copper stains that you have. We discussed the blue/green
    stains with a company that samples water and they said it was magnesium
    (I think) which is one of the common ores (along with iron) that
    is found in New England water.  Just thought I'd mention this if
    you plan to find a way to get this stuff out of your water (vs.
    just off your tub, toilets, and sinks, etc.
    

re. < Note 498.1 by MSEE::SYLVAIN >
>    You can use an adapter which screw on the PVC with the proper bushing.
>    The one I used is called PRO-VENT and available in any hardware
>    store that carries a good supply of plumbing.  It goes for about
>    $5.00.  This device can suck air into the pipe but the air/smell
>    can't come out.
    
          I know this is an old note, but where can one of these be obtained?
           
          Does anybody have one in use now?  If so, has it worked well??

          Adding a vent for a 1st floor half bath will be difficult
          so I'm looking for a cheaper/easier solution.

          Is there documentation that these are not code acceptable?

         
                                                      Thanks
 
                                                      Steve    

    The "County Store" (hardware) in Milford NH sells these.  What part
    of the world are you in?
    
    

RE< Note 498.13 by MAMIE::BERKNER "Tom Berkner 264-7942 MK01" >
>                        -< County Store in Milford NH >-
>
>    The "County Store" (hardware) in Milford NH sells these.  What part
>    of the world are you in?

        I'm in Upton, Mass., very close to Milford, MASS.
                                                    ====    
    
        Thanks for the reply- i'd prefer to find something closer to home,
        but, if it means saving a few hundred bucks on installing a regular
        roof vent...maybe I'll take a drive.

    Sommerville Lumber has "Pro Vents" for no more than $5.00
    
    It is a cheap an easy alternative but i believe they are only
    (according to code) to be used in/for house trailer's and the 
    like.  This is what a friend who is a Plumber had told me...
    
       BillJ

    I do all of my plumbling.  I bought a house that the iron pipes had
    filled completely with rust and I had NO water at all at the kitchen
    sink.  I figured it doesn't work now and if it doesn't work when I am
    thru playing around, no loss other than the cost of the parts.  It was
    a staight run of 10 ft and a 90 degree turn up into the cabinet and a
    connection to the sink.  It took me longer to read the book than to do
    the work.  The rest of the afternoon, the following day and all of the
    next weekend I completely replumbed all the supply lines in my whole
    house includeing adding a connection for a washer.  After two days of
    no water during the second weekend, I turned on the water and
    EVERYTHING worked execept 1 leak in a Tee connector.  My patience was
    at its end so I called a plumber and he charged me $45 a half hour. It
    took him just over 40 minutes so it cost me $90 for him to cut out the
    old Tee and solder in a new one.  Since then I have installed a waste
    line for the washer with its own vent to the outside. 
    
    Home owner Plumbing is legal in Georgia as long as you meet codes. 

    Does any one know of a source for either new or used older type
    bathroom fixture in the Worcester-Boston area?
    
    I have an old pedestil sink I'm trying to find some fixtures for.
    
    Thanks
    
    Mark DTN 246-1219

    Renovator's Supply.  They have a couple stores in the area.

    F&D Trucking Co, 35 Ballard St. Worcester Mass. 508-754-9572
                     Open Monday - Friday ONLY!

    Ballard St is part of Rt 146 between I-290 and Rt.20 in Worcester.

    They carry all kinds of used building materials and some slightly
    damaged new materials. For example, last time I was there, (over a year
    ago) they had some 1/2 plywood that had slipped off of a truck and had
    damaged corners, the also had some Stanley steel door units that had
    dents in the steel panels. 
    
    They also have mounds of used brick for whoever was asking else
    where in this file.
    
    Charly

    There's s renovator's supply in Brookline.
    It's at 1624 Beacon St. and the phone # is 739 - 6088.
    
    There's also another in Sturbridge, MA. right on Rt. 20 by the entrance
    to Old Sturbridge Village. The phone # is 508 - 347-2115.
    			Cindy
    

    Note that renovator's supply is, I believe, primarily reproduction
    stuff -- not the real thing. 
    
    There is a shop in Boston that has old fixtures. I don't recall
    the name -- they're across the street from South Station in the
    leather district. As I recall, they had real nice stuff, but it
    was expensive. 
    
    Joe
    

    If they are still there (i know they are planning a move) the
    Olde Bostonian in Dorcester is an 'architectural antique' place
    which often has much in the line of faucets, doorknobs, pedestal
    sinks, marble, brick, tile, doors, glass, etc, etc, etc,
    Its right off rt. 93 at the Kennedy library/bayside expo exit.
    

>        Note that renovator's supply is, I believe, primarily reproduction
>    stuff -- not the real thing. 

    Or, to put it another way,  Renovator's Supply is still manufacturing
    some things that lots of other manufacturers discontinued 50 years
    ago.
    

    Anyway if you want a bathroom fixture that was actually built a
    long time ago, you can probably get it at their main store in central
    mass., in their bargain basement.
    

    I visited Renovator's Supply in Miller Falls which is where they have
    their factory and main showroom (plus a bargain basement).
    I didn't see any "old" items, however, some of their bargains were
    really bargains. They have alot of neat embossed brass door knobs for
    $5.00 (I had a great time picking one out for my front door).
    
    It's definitely a place you could spend time browsing (a couple of
    hours) for savings. 
    I'm really glad that I live near there because I do have an old house
    and there are alot of places that don't sell certain items which are
    needed in old homes. For instance, I wanted to replace my front door 
    latch (and the mechanism) which has been in the door for about 60
    years. Its the type where you can keep the front latch locked or
    unlocked by pushing in buttons on the side of the door.
    
    None of the home centers by me sold anything like that  plus I wanted
    one that was solid brass (the door is red). No problem with renovators
    supply.
    				Cindy
    

    Re .4:
>	There is a shop in Boston that has old fixtures. I don't recall
>	the name -- they're across the street from South Station in the

    It's called Besco.  I don't have the address here, but you can find
    it in the Boston phone book.  
    
    	Marlene

Renovator's Supply has a lot of junk that looks great in a catalog, but isn't so
great in actuality.  I'd never buy from them by mail.

---Pete

    You might try Worcerster Wrecking & Salvage. John (something?) is his
    name. It's best to call at dinner time, phone # (508)754-2580.
    The address is 55 Atlantic,Worester. It's off of Plantation Street,
    Between RT 9(Belmont street) behind UMass Medical Center and the
    Firehouse on Plantation Street.                               
    
    /Jim

    I wouldn't consider the items that Renovator's Supply sells as junk.
    One reason I went there was because I couldn't find a solid brass door
    latch that I liked (and that fit into the type of door I had) in the
    home centers that I went to. I wouldn't say that everything that they
    have is better than what is out there. However, to buy quality fittings
    for an old house one of your best places to go is Renovators Supply.
    They aren't cheap but then solid brass items aren't cheap either.
    		Cindy
    

    I agree that Renovator's Supply stuff is far from being junk.  
    
    What are you comparing their stuff to?
    

>    I wouldn't consider the items that Renovator's Supply sells as junk.

     I wouldn't buy *anything* at Renovators Supply.  I think its all junk!

>    ... I went there was because I couldn't find ... in the home centers
>    that I went to. 

>    ... to buy quality fittings for an old house one of your best places to
>    go is Renovators Supply.

     I agree that home centers are not the place to buy quality fittings.  
But I feel that Renovators Supply isn't the place either.  Go to your 
local fireplace shop -- they all seem to carry Baldwin and other truly 
high quality brass fittings.  Although the prices are much higher, you 
really do get what you pay for.  The difference between the junk RS
carries and Baldwin is night and day!

    Other sources for replacement plumbing fixtures:
    
	    Period Furniture Hardware Co.
	    123 Charles Street, Boston MA
    
	    Brickman's
	    419 Moody Street, Waltham MA

We had the blue stains in our bathtub by the drain from a constant slow
drip. I read all the apllicable notes in this conference, tried most of 
the recommendations and still didn't have nay luck.

In addition to the old standby cleansers like Comet, we tried bleach,
baking soda, water softener and, of course, Tang. Nothing, zippo for 
results. (Never got around to vinegar, that was going to be next).

My wife bought a cleanser last week called ZUD. It worked like a charm 
and required very little elbow grease. Primary ingredient is Oxalic 
Acid [I think that's the way it was spelled]. Anyone know what this is?

Chuck

    Does anyone have any suggestions on how to thaw out frozen PVC pipes?
    They are probably underground.  Because they are non-metalic (read
    - don't conduct electricity), you can't use one of those handy-andy
    electric gizmos that run current through the pipes.  The only
    suggestions I've gotten are to heat up the area at the surface,
    hoping the blockage is near the surface, or to dig them up.  I don't
    like either option.  Suggestions?
    
    Elizabeth

    If they are buried it sounds like you may have to wait until spring
    or dig them up :^(.  
    
    Only thing I can think of is to disconnect the pipe inside the house,
    drain the line, and then pump hot water down the line.  The hot
    water would thaw the frozen blockage which would cool the hot water.
    Drain the pipe and put more hot water down the line.  Obviously
    this would be time consuming and may be more work than its worth.
    
    Maybe if you could attach a drill bit to the end of a plumbers snake,
    you could insert the plumbers snake down the line and the turn the
    snake and drill a hole thru the blockage.  Even a small hole thru the
    ice would allow you to get water to flow and help to thaw the rest. 

    As a really wild and maybe imaginative idea is to disconnect the
    pipe, drain it and then fire a bullet down the line to break the
    ice up.  This would only work if the line was straight and would
    probably break the pipe so that you would have to dig it up and
    replace it.  I sure that the NRA would have some additional safety
    precautions you should take.
    

    Just what is this pipe for, and how far down is it located? WHere
    are you located geographically? You have several options depending
    on what the pie is used for, and how large it is.
    
    Mike

    I don't really know exactly how far down the pipe is - probably
    about 4 ft. or so.
    
    I'm in Colorado just east of Colorado Springs.
    
    It is a 1 1/2" water pipe between the well and the house.
    
    Elizabeth

    
    I was one of two people that cleared a 3-inch plastic water
    line once under similar conditions.  It was in Massachusetts,
    during a long, colder-than-usual winter, and the pipe 
    froze.  No, digging down 5 feet or more and pulling the
    pipe up was NOT a viable option.... most of the 200 yards
    of pipe was burined under things (building, parking area)
    that "could not" be dug up at that time.  
    
    First, we disconnected the pipe at the end where hot water
    was available.  With suitable tubs, barrels, etc. to catch
    the water, we put an ordinary garden hose into the open end.
    When the hose came up against the frozen "block", we turned
    on the hot water.... a slow flow, just enough to heat up
    things at the other end of the hose.  Every 5 minutes or
    so, we could shift the hose forward, and keep melting.  
    We estimate we cleared a block of 35 feet of ice this way...
    and, with a SLOW flow of hot water, managed to avoid
    flooding our cellar in the process.  
    
    If, as your note implies, this freeze-up is cutting off
    your source of water (between the well and the house...),
    my solution becomes more difficult to work.  I could 
    imagine a container (your choice) of hot water (kept
    hot from stove-top pans, fire, whatever....) that would
    also collect the water flowing out of your pipe....
    and recirculate it into the hose, and collect it again, etc..
    
    Lacking the force that moved our hot water, you could get
    a small electric pump.... or buy one of those (relatively
    inexpensive) pump units that runs off an electric drill
    (I assume you have, or can borrow, an electric drill?)
    and circulate your hot water that way.  
    
    No, I don't consider anything but water a safe method
    to use on plastic pipe.  I might consider adding some
    rock salt to my hot water if I were in your situation,
    but NEVER would I attempt to chip, ram, etc. my way
    through.  The chances of breaking your plastic pipe
    are way too high....
    
                           - Ed -

    I had this same problem a few years back and not knowing what to
    do, I called the folks that had installed my well and pump.  My
    system was an artesian well with 1 1/2" PVC piping to the tank in
    the house.  The pump folks showed up with a small tank, 1/2" hose
    and a burner.  They filled the tank with water, closed it and placed
    it on the burner so as to heat it and develop steam.  The then
    proceeded to perform the same activity as mentioned in .4.  What
    was really nice was that there was no water on the cellar floor
    and minimal clean up.  Good luck.
    
    Dave

    
    RE: .5
    
    Sounds an awful lot like a wallpaper steamer to me!  Rent one and
    give it a try.
    

    I know the most recent reply is a couple years old....but you guys think
    that polybutelyne holds up better than copper when it freezes?  Is that
    a hunch or does anybody *know* that?
    
    I'm asking because I have to replace all the supply pipes in my
    mother-in-law's bathroom down in Indiana.  (I think I will also need to
    replace most of the bathroom, but that's a different story.)  The
    bathroom is against an outside wall, but she heats the house with a
    single wood stove in the middle of the house with no ductwork.  It gets
    mighty cold in that bathroom in the winter.  It is not an option at
    this time to add ductwork.  The pipes *will* freeze, and I don't want
    to crawl around in the mud any more after I fix the current problems.
    
    I was planning on using copper and sweat fittings, but polybutelyne is
    lots easier to work with - and it won't corrode.  If this stuff
    *really* can freeze without bursting, I might want to use it
    instead of copper.
    
    Another question about fittings.....
    
    I've seen the quest compression fittings, and I've used a few of them. 
    But I don't think I would trust them covered up.  They are also really
    expensive.  
    
    My house (not mother in law's house) uses polybutelyne pipes and
    *crimp* fittings.  Elbows, Ts, and the other fittings are attached to
    the pbt pipe with little copper rings that are crimped by a large
    crimping tool.  The crimping tool looks like large bolt cutters, but
    the jaws are shaped like a circle that gets smaller and smaller as the
    handles close.  The jaws fit around the crimp ring and squish it evenly
    around the fitting.
    
    If I use pbt, I would like to use this kind of system in mother-in-law's
    bathroom.  Does anyone have any experience with pbt and *crimp*
    fittings?  Or do these only exist in Minnesota?  There's only a few
    plumbing contractors using that system here, and it's controversial. 
    Anybody anywhere else using such a system?  Is there a reasonably
    priced supplier for the crimping tool?
    
    - Greg Scott  (DEC has 2 people namd Greg Scott.  I'm the *real* Greg
    		Scott, from Minnesota.)

    
    I've used polybutylene in 2 bathrooms in which the pipes have a
    tendency to freeze.  Yes, they have actually frozen.  Yes, if your
    pipes are going to freeze, it is better than copper. Unlike CPVC
    or copper, polybutylene will flex when the water freezes, making
    it unlikely to burst. 
    
    The disadvantage of polybutylene is that is is harder to unfreeze
    than copper. Polybutylene is an insulator, and as such, makes the
    pipes freeze resistant.  BUT, when they are frozen they take
    longer to thaw out. 
    
    I've used Quest polybutylene compression fittings and they work
    very well.  I use a bit of silicone grease on the compression
    fitting and the threads to prevent binding, although it is not
    called for.  The compression fittings have the advantage of
    alowing you to undo the pipe for changes or an emergency.  When I
    lost heat recently, I was able to drain some sections of the house
    very quickly, by undoing one of these fittings. 

    Unfortunately, I don't know anything about the crimp fittings 
    you mentioned, so I can't compare them.
    
    -tm
    

Does anyone know of a salvage yard that may have lots of copper pipe? I'm 
working on a project that will use alot of copper pipe and at 10-11 dollars a
10 ft section (Hot water) this can be very expensive. Once I can prove the 
concept of my design I would go with new but for prototype why bother.

If anyone knows of a place to buy them cheap please tell me. 1/2 or 3/8 doesn't
matter, I can use either.

Thanx,

K.

    You don't bother to say where you are located.
    
    Merrimack Metals usually has a good selection on route 101A
    (exit 7) off of the everett turnpike in Nashua.
    
    They are about 7 miles out just beyond Pennichuck Square behind
    Alexanders.

    What is the purpose of having a pump on a septic system? I don't
    have a pump in mine to pump anything into the leeching field. 
    
    Jim
    

    Reply .6 hit on it, but sometimes, because of the house and the
    property, the leach fields are higher than the tank, so the liquid must
    be pumped UP.
    
    Eric

Has anyone bent the rigid copper pipe? I am going to use some copper pipe in a
heating design and would like to reduce the number of fittings and soldering
joints done, and bending the pipe to allow use of single coupling fittings.

I know their is the soft coiled copper but I need the straight pipe. If anyone
also knows of any alternatives I'm open for suggestions. I need the metal
pipe for heat conductivity so plastic won't work either.

thanx for any help

Ken

    To bend rigid copper pipe you fill it with sand and bend away.
    Works great. The sand keeps the pipe from kinking.
                                                       Bill
    
  PS.  Don't forget to take the sand out after you get the bend you want.

Is it the regular conduit bender that you use?

The sand is a great idea, do you think a spring would do also. I know thats
what they use for the soft stuff and bend it by hand.

Thanx

ken

    Use a conduit bender, your knee, bend around a lally column etc.
    They all work if you just take your time. My brother is a pipefitter
    working for the government on our Navys ships and says that fine
    sand is the only way with good results on rigid copper.
                                                          
                                                              Bill

    Saww the plumber on TOH do it this way....
    
    Rich  somethingorother...

    I tried to bend 3/4" copper pipe with a pipe bender - it didn't
    work. Will the sand method work for for pipe this large?

   
     Re:  .5     I have seen my brother bend 3/4 pipe using the sand
    method and a pipe bender. It seemed to work very well. He also stated
    that they bend pipe much larger than 3/4" but uses a "power pipe
    bender"   Note: Power pipe bender are my words. I don't remember
    what he actually called it.
                                            Bill

    My house whines.  It's a two family, on a well.  The pipes don't
    knock they make a high-pitched whine that's related to the hot water.
    Turn on the water, they go away.  Turn off the water, they may or
    may not go away.  Wait a few (15) seconds and there they are again.
    The noise resembles a bull moose in an amorous mood.  They keep
    us awake at night (well, one of us).  Any ideas?  Is this related
    to water hammer etc?

	Is it poss. that somewhere in the building there is a faucet/
	valve the is leaking, just a tad.  One of ours does if not
	fully closed, drip once a minute or so.  We had a toilet
	tank valve do this also until I replaced it and that one
	took forever to find.

	When your moose calls.... try shutting off each of the supplies
	one at a time, price is right and doesn't take long to isolate.

Happy hunting.

    Re .14, .15
    
    A slightly loose faucet washer caused this in a house we formerly
    owned.
    
    pbm
    

    re: .6  He is probably referring to the professional type pipe benders
    which are actuated by either electricity or hydraulics.  The less
    expensive ones are used by Midas et al in the exhaust system business.
     The VERY expensive ones are used in shipyards and a have a mandrel
    which fits inside of the pipe to keep it from being reduced in
    dimension when the radii are bent.  The very best of these are
    numerically controlled for radius of bend, length between bends
    and the location of the bend with respect to other bends in the
    tube.  Needless to say, these are fascinating to watch since the
    operator only loads the machine and presses the button to start
    the process which continues until it is done.

    [Mods:  this was the closest topic I could find;  feel free to move it.]
    
    -------,        ,------- 	The drain flange, I believe it is, in one
            \      /		bowl of a two-bowl kitchen sink is leaking.
             \    /		The chromed pipe that runs from the drain
             {OOOO} <--trouble	to the trap is held in place by what
              |  |      spot	appears to be a gasket made of some sort of
              |  |		fibrous stuff covered on the outside with
    				some (*thin*!) metal.
    
    This gasket, which runs around the outside of the joint, is
    disintegrating, and letting water escape into the kitchen cabinet.
    I'm assuming that it should be replaced with another.
    
    -- How accurate does all this sound?
    
    -- Is it legal to replace this myself, in Massachusetts?
    
    -- What do I need to know in order to obtain the correct part?
       (Manufacturer?  Model?  Age?  Diameter?)
    
    -- What do I need to have for tools, and how large a job is it?
    
    
    Dick

    You should be able to by this "slip-joint" fitting in any Grossman's,
    etc. for about $3.00.  You can either buy chrome or plastic PVC.
    Just unscrew the old and screw on the new.  It should take you about
    15 minutes, from start to finish, and it looks like the only tools
    you'll need will be a razor knife to scrap the old "gasket" away,
    and a pair of channel locks.
    

And if you use Plastic Pipe, you will not have a future corrosion problem.

Dave

    As part of our bathroom remodel, I am planning to build a stall
    shower that will be 10' away from the main DWV stack.  I am not
    sure how to run the revent from the trap shower trap.  Should I
    run the revent from a T-before the drain trap or should T the
    vent to the trap itseelf?  I've shown both options in the diagram
    below (sort of looking down down on except for trap. Proposed revent
    line would go up shower wall into attic and T back into main stack.
    
    
     +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++       
     +       +                             +
     +       +     shower base             +
     +       +     ==========              +           ----- = 2" drain
     +       +         |                   +
     +       --------  |++++++++++++++++++++
     +       |  12"  | |                               +++++ = proposed
     +       |       |_| P-trap                                2" revent
     +       |
     +       |
     +       |96"
     +       |
     _   18" |
    |_|-------
                                          
       \                                    
        3" Main Stack (vents to roof)

    Since the reason for venting is to equalize air pressure on both sides
    of the trap to prevent the trap water from being sucked out, the revent
    should be between the trap and the main stack.  The vent also needs to
    be placed close to the trap, since locating it near the stack would
    defeat its purpose.  
    
    Bob

Is there a method to test for leakage in new PVC drain and waste
    pipes that were added to an exisitng system.  The books I've 
    read indicate that you can test a new "roughed-in" system by
    plugging all opening with appropriate plugs and then fill to
    your highest drain.  However, if it's a remodel, this could not
    be done, short of disconnect from the main sewer-out.  
    
    I was thinking that maybe there was a way to inflate a bladder
    (balloon) in the cleanout T at the base of the waste stack to
    plug the system.  The plumbing stores knew no way of pressure
    testing the new piping before sealing up the floor and wall
    openings. 
    
    Any suggestions

I've seen "balloons" available that attatch to the end of a garden hose.
They're used to clean out drain systems (the balloon inflates to block the
pipe, and then the water vents out the opposite end to pressurize the pipe
and eventually move the blockage).  It occurs to me that such a balloon,
with the exit end suitably plugged, would block your drain pipe nicely.

I got one of those balloons at Spags (where else?) a number of years ago.
They come in various sizes to match your pipe size.

    I agree violently with -.1
    
    gjd

    Am I missing something here or isn't 10' the number under which
    you don't need an explicit vent?  Called a wet vent I think.
    

When we had plumbing added on, the plumber pressure tested using a long,
black rubber sausage-shaped thing with an air chuck on the back of it.
He slid it into the section of pipe that joined to the main drain and
inflated it, plugged all the drains with similar-looking things then 
pressurized the pipes (30 or 40 lbs) with air and left a mercury gauge
on them for three days.  At the end of 3 days, when the pressure hadn't 
dropped, he and the building inspector declared it "right."  I gathered
that was the required test for Mass.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    RE: -.1
    
    I believe code states that for 2" diameter pipe the critical distance
    to the main stack is 5'.
    
    However, in a previous note, it was asked why a wet vent cannot
    not be used REGARDLESS of distance as long as the bottom of the
    trap is BELOW the level of where the drain pipe enters the main
    stack. This would seem to preclude the possibility of siphoning
    off the trap.
    
    Can somebody  clarrify???

    HELP PLEASE......I'm still hoping for an answer to the question
    posed in .19
    
    Can an EXTRA-DEEP trap be used to wet-vent a 10ft run of 2" drain
    pipe if the bottom of the trap is BELOW the level of the drainpipe
    exit.
    
    I'm hoping to complete the DWV piping this weekend so I can put
    the subflooring down.
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan

    How do you fix a frozen main shut off water valve.  Does this indicate
    it needs replacement or can it be fixed ???  Any experienced folks
    out there????????????
    
    				Thanks  Paul t.

    The assumption here is that you are referring to a water shutoff valve
    supplying domestic water to your residence, and that you have a well or 
    a pump before the valve by which you can stop the flow of water.
    
    If you have the above I would go for replacing the guts of the valve,
    that is all of the moving parts. You can do this by purchasing the guts
    only or buying a new valve and exchanging parts. You may try to free it
    up but it sounds old and you would probably be inviting leaks because
    of the tampering. This way you can avoid a pain-in-the-butt
    desoldering/soldering job.
    
    Re the first paragraph, if you are on city water, there will be a city
    turnoff before it gets to your house and that a whole other picture - 
    but possibly the same solution.

Our house is on city water. I had wanted to add a pressure
regulator to drop the water pressure from 170 psi to 110 to run
the sprinkler system. The problem was that the regulator should
be at the feed line from the city water; hence I had to arrange
with the city to come out to turn off the water when I added the
regulator.

The city water folks have a long handled (5') wrench that fits a
valve that's 3' below the surface.

If you have to change the guts of the valve, you'd probably need
the city folks to help you OR need to dig a hole to get to the
outside valve.

Cal

    Unless someone screwed up, the outside valve should be under a small,
    round cover either in the street or somewhere in the front of your
    property.
    
    Eric

    I live in Worcester, Mass., with city water department supplying
    the water.  When we bought the house about a year ago, we had
    a dripping shower.... simple job to replace the washer in the
    faucet, right?  Wrong!!  No shutoff valves back to the MAIN
    valve in one corner of our cellar.  It was stuck... my 210 lbs.
    didn't budge it.  Get a bigger hammer?  And have a MAJOR leak?
    No, not yet....
    
    I called the city water department.... they would have been
    glad to fix it for about $50.00 - replacing the entire
    valve (apparently a ball type... 1/4 turn lever on the 
    outside) inside the house.  I'd let them know.... after 
    we had the money budgeted.  
    
    I got lucky.... THEY needed to shut it off, to check for
    a possible leak in THEIR pipe coming into the house.... 
    about 4 weeks later.  THEY asked to come in and shut things
    off.... and the two flunkies referred the stuck-valve problem
    to the BOSS, who told the "experienced" one to try it.  
    This fellow was about 300 lbs. or I miss my guess... and
    with a lot of wiggling and grunting he got it to move...
    and eventually to where it would move fairly easily.  
    I got my valve shut with NO cost.... at THEIR risk!  
    
    If it's yours, I would try the bigger-wrench solution,
    but with a replacement unit on hand, and you ready to
    replace it on the spot.  
    
                               - Ed -
    
    P.S. - I now have shutoff vales in all the right places in
    MY house...  but I still go in every month or so and move
    the MAIN valve through its motions, so I know it will still
    do it if I ever need it to..
    
    

    I had a problem with my valve being frozen or at least I thought I did
    til my father came over to look at the problem. He loosened the large
    nut on the bottom side of the valve and turned it shut with his fingers
    and said " be sure to tighten this when you're done". Humbled by the
    wisdom of the ages I finished the job.
    Check and see if yours has one...
    
    -j

    First entry in notes file--hope this is the right place and I hope it
    helps someone else as much as it did me.

    I was having a problem with EXTREMELY slow bathroom sink drain (about
    1 pint water per minute).  I'd tried snaking it with little success.
    I had heard that others have had problems with the acid drain cleaners,
    so I steered clear of these.

    Fortunately, a relative of mine had just read an advertisement of a new
    product called PLUMB CLEAN.  It costs $13, but it comes with a
    money-back guarantee.  Basically, it's a non-acid, non-corrosive
    chemical that breaks down the build-up of grease, soap-scum, and hair
    in drains.  Note that it WON'T help with roots in main sewer lines.
    Through a series of applications (1 per day for 5 days), Plumb Clean breaks
    down the buildup of gook in drains.  After 4 days of trying it, the drain
    still seemed pretty plugged.  I re-read directions and tried plunging it
    which they suggested if it's still plugged.  I was amazed at how clear
    the pipe was after that.  It was as if the drain was new.  Needless
    to say, I won't have to worry about the money-back guarantee.  The
    directions suggest using 1 application every 2-4 weeks after clearing
    the drain.  Since there are 30 applications/container, I figure it
    cost me about $2 to clear the drain.

    I couldn't find it in Worcester-area hardware stores, but finally found
    it in a Framingham Service-Star(?) store.

Geoff

	I have had plugged drains in my tub and sinks and was always using a 
	snake to clean 'em out. It would never really work the way I would have
	liked due to a device (don't know what it is) installed in the plumbing
	which avoids back-up from the sink into the tub. (it looks like a big
	bulb with a cap on it that I cannot get at without ripping the floor up)
	
	Anyhow; I went to taylor rental and they have what they call a 
	KINETIC WATER RAM which is a big 'gun' type device with many different
	sized fittings to fit all size drains etc. You pump this baby up 
	to about 40 pounds pressure (depending on what you want to unclog)
	and pull the trigger. It sends the 40 pounds of air pressure through
	the clog pushing everything out with it! It works extremely well
	and I have not had a problem for over 3 months. What a tool!! It 
	cost 7 bucks to rent. No chemicals, no fuss, no muss!

	It has full instructions along with the amount of pressure to be used 
	for differnt size sinks, tubs etc. I'd like to buy one but I have not
	had to use one since. For the seven bucks... I'll keep renting!

	I found out about it when I called to have the rooter man tell me what 
	he would use.   8^)
					What a tool!!!   check it out!
			
		Roger_who_has_a_clear_mind_on_clogged_DRAINS  8^)

re :< Note 353.6 by AITG::KARR >

>	and pull the trigger. It sends the 40 pounds of air pressure through
>	the clog pushing everything out with it! It works extremely well

If you  have  "caustic"  water in your area that tends to gradually eat away at
the insides of  kitchen  and  bathroom traps, this great toy will help you find
those weakened pipes if the blockage is down stream.  The little streams coming
from unnatural spots are the first indications.

If the blockage is from a "foreign device", such as a pen dropped in the toilet
with paper and such behind it, this 40 lbs can cause the blockage to become set
even more firmly in place.

Snakes are "yucky", but they do, indeed, have their place.

FWIW......
Dave

    They have test plugs in various sizes at Spags in the plumbing section.
    They can be filled with air or water, be carefull they look just
    like the drain cleaners which fill with water and then discharge
    a high pressure stream to remove blocks in pipes. I think they run
    $12-$18.
    
    								Chris
    				

    Along a similar line . . .
    
    I was on the roof the other day and noticed what appears to
    be a "plug" in the vent stack from the laundry room.  The
    washer drains into this via one of those panels with the two
    faucets and a drain, with the washer's drain hose stuffed
    into the drain hole (not an air tight connection).
    
    Would the "plug" have been left over from pressure testing
    the DWV system?  Or is there a real reason (other than a
    feeble attempt to build a single note pipe organ) for the
    plug?

re:   .7

> If the blockage is from a "foreign device", such as a pen dropped in the toilet
> with paper and such behind it, this 40 lbs can cause the blockage to become set
> even more firmly in place.


Dave, The device is not really designed to be used in a hopper (although I am
sure there are a few zillion diy'rs who would find a way )  8^)

You make a good point.. It could worsen the situation...

btw... what areas do you know of that have such 'caustic' water? This could be a 
note in itself.. (probably is elsewhere)

Thanks.... Roger

re .8 

>btw... what areas do you know of that have such 'caustic' water? This could be a 
>note in itself.. (probably is elsewhere)

When we  first  bought in Nashua, 1974, I saw a small drip under the trap under
the bathroom vanity.    When I put some pressure on the lower part of the trap,
my finger went through.   I  replaced  the  trap with another one - same chrome
coated thin copper;  it went  out  the  same  way  about  five  years later.  I
replaced it, and the kitchen trap, permanently  with  PVC.  I don't know if the
Pennichuck Water Works provides different water now, or  if  the  PVC  did  the
trick.

Dave

The drain from my kitchen sink is routed sideways, through about 4' of base
cabinets.  When I replace the cabinets, I'd like to avoid mangling them & want
to remove the pipe as close to the wall as possible & then replace it after
they're in place.  The drain pipe looks like 1-1/2" copper, soldered to brass
fittings.  My question is, would it be possible to somehow transition the
unthreaded copper pipe to some type of plastic pipe, and connect to the sink
with that?  I've seen this done with threaded transition fittings, but never
    with unthreaded.  (BTW - I've consulted note 1111.x & found nothing on
    this subject.  Thanks.	
    					joe

    
    I know this was discussed before, but I don't recall which note.
    
    Anyway, any large (and many small) building supply stores have
    rubber sleeves with a screw-driven clamp at either end.  One end
    fits over the copper/brass/cast iron pipe and the other connects
    to the new plastic pipe.
    
    

    Thanks,
    	I did come across a discussion of joining plastic to copper for FHW
    heating systems, but, from what I could gather, a different type of
    pipe is used for that application & I didn't know if it held true for
    the stuff used in drains as well.  Thanks again.
    				joe

    I had a similar problem when I renovated our bathroom, and decided
    to bite the bullet and solder a threaded fitting to the drain pipe.
    It is possible, with care, to solder 1-1/2 copper, even with an
    ordinary propane torch.  The most difficult problem is getting the
    entire fitting hot enough so the solder flows, without having to
    heat it all day.
    
    A suggestion might be to try it a couple of times with some scrap
    1-1/2 inch copper and a couple of fittings, to get a feel for how
    long it'll take to get everything hot enough.  Get an asbestos
    shingle to shield the surrounding area from heat and go at it.
    
    Good luck,
    Rich

    Thanks for the advice - the problem is, that the pipe enters at a
    pretty severe angle.  In order to minimize the amount of cutting I'll
    have to do to the cabinet side, I'll have to cut it fairly close,
    making soldering a risky business.  Leaving the pipe longer will
    necessitate cutting a long oval, rather than a nice clean circle in the
    cabinets. Of course, I COULD break open the wall, re-route the drain,
    and connect it to the main waste pipe . . . nahhh.

    Joe,
           I saw the rubber sleeves mentioned in .1 at Robinson's Hardware
    on Rt 85 in Hudson. From what I saw they had a sleeve for connecting
    just about any two sizes of pipe together...
    
    Dave

    SUPER - I'm a regular fixture at Robinson's True Value, since I bought
    the house, anyway!  Thanks.
    							joe

    
    I do my own plumbing including GAS!! because many plumbers are sloppy.
    Recently I had to hire a plumber because I'm doing a very large remodeling
    project and I know I'll get caught. So I hired the guy, he priced
    it at $480 for labor (day and a half I think) + $200 for parts.
    Sounded outragous to move a sink and a stove but what else could
    I do. They came in and finished it in 4hrs. That would be fine
    if they did good work. When they drilled for copper they hit a heating
    duct, a rafter and then made it through. He butchered
    the shingles where the vent goes through the roof. He used one
    small pair of channel locks to install all the 3/4 gas pipe. I would
    of used two 14 inch pipe wrenches. You can't tighten 3/4 very well
    with channel locks. He only checked half the fittings with bubbles
    for leaks. I won't even turn the gas on until I redo the job.
    
    I don't blame them it's the system.
    

        The coupling referenced is called a Fernco (sp).  When I
    switch from septic to town sewer we used several in various
    sizes.  The inspector was not real happy with using them for
    copper to PVC transition, but he let it go.  I'm supposed to
    correct it when I redo the drain for the kitchen sink.

        The inspector mentioned another fitting which he like
    better for some of the size mismatches.  Called a mission
    coupling.  I seen them, but not as common as fernco.  I
    believe the mission has inside and outside stainless bands in
    addition to the rubber.

    Pete Duke

    Could you have done all of that except for actually hooking it up
    to the gas line?  Then you could have the plummer come in, hook
    it up to the gas line and inspect your job to make sure there were
    no leaks.  I believe my husband has done this.
    
    Kathy

    
    re .38
    
    That's still illegal in Mass. I'm not saying it's right, just illegal.
    
    
    Mike

    ...and frustrating as all h*ll!!!
    
    Edd (who's new water heater must sit in the cellar until Monday
         because he can't legally do it himself...)

    How much vertical height should I allow for my capped pipe extensions
    above the faucet T's on my rough-in plumbing to allow for an expansion
    chamber to eliminate water-hammer in the pipes?

    Does anyone have any real experience with how long this kind of
    connection holds up? I've been putting off installing a new faucet in
    the kitchen sink because (1) my past experience with sweating pipes
    myself has been less than laudatory - though I really should take the
    time to get the hang of it, and (2) I bought some plastic hookup pipes
    which should connect right to the cut-off copper pipes, but I can't get
    this picture out of my head of the connection blowing off some time
    while we're gone for a couple of weeks, and have the well emptied into
    the upper level of the house.

    Mine appear to have not lost a drop of water in over a year.
    
    Edd

  Of course, as frustrating as the situation is (and I certainly agree
  it is), I'm glad it's the way it is. If it weren't, you'd have no end
  of well-meaning amateurs legally doing their own plumbing, and making
  costly mistakes which would result in higher insurance premiums for
  all of us, and possibly personal injury or loss of life. As it is,
  with respect to what a home-owner is allowed to do with their house
  wiring, the situation is dangerous enough. The house we bought had
  some incredibly dangerous wiring mistakes made by the previous owner,
  who was a civil engineer, but didn't understand the importance of the
  electrical code. By pure luck, I happened to spot one before anyone
  got electrocuted, and went on to examine the whole house, finding
  numerous other problems. I don't know any way to administer the
  situation which is substantially different or better than what we have
  today. It's not perfect or inexpensive, but we're mostly safe.

re .41:

That makes a stong case for required INSPECTIONS of the work.

-Mike

    However, it is like everything else the government attempts to regulate
    in order to protect us from each other. The limit our ability by
    adopting codes (not wrong, VERY good) for plumming, Electrical,
    etc. These codes restrict us (whom ever be so law biding) from doing
    things to our own house (for good reason, again no problem here).
    BUT, they don't regulate the trades/costs to keep the price reasonable
    for these services which WE MUST CONTRACT OUT FOR!
    
    Instead, the government plays right into the hands of the "trades".
    
    I believe that IF the government feels something needs regulation
    on one side (such as homeowners doing gas plumming, electrical,
    etc.) then there needs to be a balanced regulation on the other
    side of the same issue which sets reasonable regulations on pricing
    for those services. I think it is WRONG to regulate on side of the
    scale but not the other.
    
    I also think that a homeowner should be able to complete all work
    in his home (plumming, electrical) as long as that work does not
    include "hooking it up" to the main gas/electrical service. Again,
    I think this is something government was levy'd to do by the UNIONs
    (in Massachusetts anyway). Heavens, we can't take work away from
    the blessed/blasted unions. It doesn't matter if their tradesmen
    can not complete a job properly (quality).
    
    My .02 cents.
                                              

    I thought it was legal in MA to make a deal with a plumber so that the
    plumber pulls the permit and supervises the work, but you do all the
    grunt work.  Finding a plumber who'll do that is another story.

Re: .41

Just what I needed on a Monday morning... a light laugh to start out the
day.  Without the use of smiley faces, it actually looks like you believe
that plumbing codes provide us with all the benefits listed and that all
the hardware stores with HUGE collections of plumbing fittings are selling
only to licensed plumbers who are doing the work so we won't find uninspected
copper nightmares living in the walls of our newly-bought homes.  I, and 
everyone who has bought a previously-owned house, take off my hat to you
and look forward to your substituting when Dave Barry needs a vacation.

" If it weren't, you'd have no end
  of well-meaning amateurs legally doing their own plumbing, and making
  costly mistakes..."  What a riot!  You slay me!  Hahahahahahahahahahaha!....

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    This topic started off discussing connecting drain/waste pipes.
    
    The rubber sleeves are an excellent solution for this.  (I have not
    had any problems in 5 years, and expect the connection to go for
    another 30+? ; anyway, there is not a great deal of pressure on a
    drain.
    
    Now it sounds like you are talking about connecting supply lines
    with these couplings.  It could prove to be an interesting and
    wet experiment--I certainly wouldn't do it.
    
    For supply lines, learn to solder them--it really isn't hard; or if
    you don't have the patience; use compression fittings.
    
    

    re: -1
    
    You're right.  The current laws probably makes the saftey issue worse.
    Since you can go to the local hardware store and buy everything you
    need to do your own electrical/plumbing, there is no stopping the
    DIYer.  What makes it worse is that since it is "illegal" to do your
    own work, the inspector never gets called to look at the work, so all
    sorts of horrible things get covered up by sheetrock.  
    
    Frankly I think there are lots of "amatures" who can provide the same
    quality as any licensed contractor.  You should be allowed to do you
    own work if it can pass inspection.  Right now, if you called the
    inspector, you're just inviting a lot of hassles (like being forced to
    undo all your work so a "licensed" contractor can do the same thing at
    a much higher price). 
    
    What's next, jail terms for possesion of copper pipe and electrical
    wire by unlicensed people?    

  I agree on a number of good points: the prices are out of control, and
  the system works like a monopoly. Competent inspections are really the
  right solution. But it seems the government can't afford to spend the
  money on what really good inspections by a top-notch inspector would
  cost. Instead, we home-owners get to pay for the training and
  comfortable livings of the professionals.

  re Mr Taber, are you always so obnoxious, or did the Metamucil not work
  this morning?

    re .-1
    
    The issue is partly a shortage of qualified inspectors, but it's also
    that in today's litigious atmosphere, municipalities are trying to
    cover themselves for the situation where an "inspected" job has an
    overlooked violation that leads to loss/injury and the TOWN gets sued
    for having passed it.

Could you all please relocate the philosophical discussion of the 
appropriateness of building codes to note 3565?  Thanks.

Paul

>  re Mr Taber, are you always so obnoxious, or did the Metamucil not work
>  this morning?

I guess I'm always that obnoxious.  But if it will make you feel any better,
it was not my intent to offend you, which I apparently have done.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    
    RE.last couple 

    I have used these pressure fit line couplings a couple of time. 
    I am talking about the non-threaded copper to PVC type.
    I am talking supply line- under sink and washer hook up.

    In the length of time we were in the two houses after the installation
    there was not a drop of water leaked at any of the Eight connections
    Under sink H/C and washer H/C in two houses and now in this one the
    inline filter from the well uses the same fittings and again DOES NOT
    LEAK. They are easy to install and fairly inexpensive for parts. 

  Ah, ok. I was worried it for a minute there that it was a personal
  insult. Glad to hear your digestive system is doing fine. Wouldn't
  want to take any chances on DIY plumbing :-) :-) :-) :-).

    I don't have a code book to reference but from all the plumbing
    I have seen in rough form, ( I hang out around new housing developments
    to get ideas), is about 6 to 8 inches above the T for kitchen and
    bath facets.
    
    All the plumbing books I have read have indicated there is a device
    which is connected to your capped T instead of the capped end which
    is a air baffle that allows the expansion to happen.  Thought I would 
    mention it as an alternative.
    
  

re:                     <<< Note 388.41 by VIA::GLANTZ "Mike, DTN 381-1253" >>>

>  Of course, as frustrating as the situation is (and I certainly agree
>  it is), I'm glad it's the way it is. If it weren't, you'd have no end
>  of well-meaning amateurs legally doing their own plumbing, and making
>  costly mistakes which would result in higher insurance premiums for
>  all of us...

      Mike,  I'm sorry, but, while I doubt you intended to be offensive,
      what you have said is definitely insulting to me.   I  have  done,
      legally  and with permits, all of the plumbing and electrical work
      in our home. It is all "code legal" and has passed inspections. It
      is good workmanship and safe.  
      
      Apparently  I  am not alone in my "amateur abilities".  I have had
      two building inspectors tell  me  that  homeowners  who  undertake
      plumbing  and  electrical  work  generally  do  a  better job that
      professionals. Homeowners who do their own work almost always take
      the  time  to  understand what is required and to do it correctly.
      After all, they have to live with  it.   "Professionals",  on  the
      other  hand,  have a strong profit motive which encourages them to
      do the work the quickest,  cheapest  way  that  can  meet  minimum
      requirements.  
      
      "Higher  insurance  premiums"???   Oh,  come now!  Do you have any
      evidence to back that up?  No, of  course  you  don't.   Insurance
      companies  don't  keep  claims  statistics  that  show whether the
      plumbing/electrical  work   was   done   by   the   owner   or   a
      "professional". In NH homeowners can legally do their own plumbing
      and electrical work (subject to local regulations).  Are NH  rates
      higher than Mass rates for comparable communities?
      
      Anyone  who  looks at this objectively will realize that the costs
      added by Mass's restrictive regulations have *NO*  safety  benefit
      at all. These regulations serve only the interests of the plumbing
      and electrical license holders.
      
>   ... It's not perfect or inexpensive, but we're mostly safe.

      This  notes  file,  the  CONSUMER  notes conference, many consumer
      publications and even the daily papers offer example after example
      of property damange, personal injury and even death caused by poor
      and unsafe work done by "professional" building  trandesmen.   But
      I'm glad you feel "safe".
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      Now let me offer my appolgies---

      ...to  you,  Mike,  if I seem to be "picking" on you.  But you are
      wrong and I hope you realize it.
      
      ...to  the  readers  of  this conference for making you endure yet
      another soapbox flame.  And I haven't even taken the assertiveness
      training!  

      ...to the vast majority of building trades men and women who DO do
      safe, quality work at reasonable prices.

       re. .52    Same thoughts here. I don't think any appologies are in 
    order, rather that you and the rest of the careful DIY readers are owed 
    one.  My dad has many stories of inspectors telling him that his work
    was so much better than what they normally see... I hope to emmulate
    him. I look at the sloppy appearance of most professional work and just
    shake my head. I would not allow my own work to be so. - Chris

Did I say 

	"all DIYers are incompetent"

or

	"you are incompetent"

? 

If you think so, I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. What I
meant was

	"some DIYers are incompetent"

and thought that was obvious.

    I believe a lot of DIYers probably do do better work, but...
    
    I do know of an experience a few years back were a DIY did some
    wiring which resulted in a fire and destroyed the upstairs.  The
    person had been renovating the upstairs himself.  He didn't get
    the proper permits and therefore was liable for the damage and his
    insurance did not cover the loss.  
    
    I would think if it had been a professional that did the wiring
    which caused the fire then the electrian would have had to cover
    the damage with his insurance.
    
    There are risks if a DIYer isn't careful.
    
    Kathy

    I have no problem with quality DIY work. If the homeowner is allowed to
    pullthe permit, do the work, and then get it FAIRLY inspected, then the
    problem basically doesn't exist. Shoddy work will be caught, while
    homeowners won't be held under trade union extortion.
    
    Eric

    In the interest of fairness, I should point out that it unfair to lay
    so much of the blame on the plumbers' union.  I envision union plumbers
    as working for the large contractors who build office buildings, malls,
    and so on.
    
    The typical homeowner, at least in suburbia, who hires a plumber for
    some task is likely to get a self-employed businessman who perhaps
    employs some other licensed plumbers as employees, but probably isn't
    big enough to have a unionized shop.  A self-employed plumber may be
    part of some trade association that lobbies the state legislature, but
    probably isn't a member of a union.  
    
    This is one situation in which management (the owner's of plumbing
    companies) and labor (the employees, both unionized and nonunionized)
    have the same interests.
    
       Gary

RE:  Note 388.55 by VIA::GLANTZ "Mike, DTN 381-1253" >>>

>Did I say 
>
>	"all DIYers are incompetent"

      No,  you  didn't.   And I didn't say that there are NO incompetent
      DIYers. 
      
      What  you  did  say, or at least strongly imply, was that DIY work
      should be presumed to be incompetent until proven  otherwise,  and
      the  "professional" work should be presumed to be competent unless
      show otherwise.  I, and others, think this is wrong.  DIY work  is
      just  as  likely to be safe and to meet code as professional work.
      DIY work is MORE LIKELY than professional  work  to  EXCEED  code.
      This  statement  is  based  on my experience and the experience of
      others, and on comments attributed to various inspectors.
      
      BTW -- I wasn't seriously insulted. If you haven't tried to do any
      plumbing or electrical work you can't possibly know how very  easy
      it  is  to  get  the necessary information that allows you to do a
      good, safe, up-to-code job.

Just as an real life example...

Many years ago when I was just starting my DYI "career", I did some plumbing
which in hindsight was horrible and, maybe dangerous. It was a tiny job (a few 
new pipes in the cellar). I couldn't get anyone out to look at it. This
was at the height of the building boom. So I did it myself.

I know I would have preferred it, felt much safer, and felt more comfortable
about my insurance, if an inspector had been able to come in and certify
the work. But since I knew that what I had done was illegal I kept it 
quiet. I don't think I would do it now, but I was more naieve then.

My point is, I think the current laws promote the very things they are
intended to stop. If people could have inspections done easily, without the
fear of prosecution, I think more safety would be realized. In many cases
the jobs are done anyway. They just aren't inspected.

							Mark

    what a difference between california & mass.
    
    1)  check file at city hall to see what permits were pulled for
    the property.  they had them all in calif.  Mass the question I
    got back was what????  we do not keep records, once it is signed
    off they throw it away.
    
    2)  pulled my first electriacl permit in calif.  inspector talked
    to us before getting the permit and came to inspect the work at
    the time specified by both parties.**MASS I was given a card and
    told I may be able to get the inspector in a couple of days never
    did pull the permit.
    
    3)  built an addition to house in calif.  involved moving gas,
    electric, as well as water pipes.  again inspector talked to us
    before starting and inspected all things on mutually agareed on
    time.**MASS won'ted to add bath room down stairs.  got so much grief
    from the town hall and local plumbers $$$$ that we finally gave
    up on the idea.
    
    4)  rewired 2 houses in calif with no rework required after inspection.
    rewired my mass house after one week of moving in due to finding
    a electrical box on fire.  
    
    makes you wonder witch state is promoting safty??????

    I encountered a similar problem when replacing my kitchen cabinets.  
    The shut off valve for the hot water slowed the flow down, but didn't 
    come anywhere near shutting it off.  Even after turning off the main, 
    there was still a slow dribble.  I replaced the washer, and it didn't 
    make any difference at all.  My question is, does the entire valve 
    have to be replaced, or are there additional parts that can be replaced 
    without removing the valve.  If I do have to replace the valve, how can 
    I manage to solder in a new one, when even shutting off the main can't 
    totally stop the flow of water?

    re: .12
    
    You may want to consider using a valve that attaches with compression
    fittings. Fast, easy and you can get a water-tight fitting without
    even slowing the flow down...
    
    Edd

    If the valve seat is damaged (nicked or corroded), all the washers in
    the world won't help. The saving grace may be that many seat types are
    replacable.. If the sink in question is not the highest one, then even 
    shutting off the main feed will not stop the dripping as all the plumbing 
    above here tries to drain out.
    
    Eric

    Thanks, all.  Re [.-1], Although it is the highest sink, I have a hot
    water heating system, so I suppose it's possible that the water level
    from the upstairs radiators is what's causing the drip.  How dies one
    determine whether the seat is replacable?
    

    Any advice on getting rid of an old cast iron boiler?  It is one
    of the real old ones and has had the asbestos insulation removed.
    The problem is that it is too big to fit through my basement door.
    Also it is very heavy.  None of the scrap companies want to come
    and pick it up.  I am not so much interested in DIY on this as in
    getting rid of it.  We are selling the house, and the buyers want
    it out of there.  What type of person should I call?  How would
    one go about a DIY job, as I may be able to talk a relative into
    doing the job.
    	Linda

    re. .5  getting rid of the cast iron boiler
    	The "best" way to handle this is with a LARGE sledge hammer.  The
    boiler can be dis-assembled and the pieces taken out to the local 
    scrap place or dump.  This is the way Norm handled the same problem on
    one episode of This Old House, anyway.
    Ric

    
    Re: .5 
    
    I would call local oil companies, and ask what they would charge.
    They have to do that type of thing on a regular basis when they
    put new boilers into a house.  Perhaps you could save yourself
    money by using the sledge hammer idea ahead of time, so it will
    fit through the door. 

RE<<< Note 1611.15 by ROLL::BEFUMO "Knowledge perishes . . . understanding endures" >>>

   If the valve seat is causing the problem, you should be able to fix it with
  whats called a "seat dresser'.  Its tool available at plumbing supply outlets
  that is used to smooth out any irregularities in the seat, to allow the
  washer to make even contact at the seat.

  kind of like turning the rotors on an auto brake job.....

  

    Thanks - I'll investigate that.

    My neighbor just did that.  He broke it up with the sledge, and
    then got one of those local disposal guys to come and take it away.
    You know, the ones who advertise in the local papers, "Jack's pickup".
    
    Lee

    
    RE: .18
    
    Until you come up with a better solution, there are a couple ways
    you can prevent the trap from freezing.  One is to leave the 
    faucets in the tub dripping slightly.  I've never had a problem
    when I do that.  I assume that any ice that begins to form floats
    to the top and washes into the drain.  Another method is to put
    windshield washer/antifreeze in the drain after you finish using
    the tub/shower.  That has the advantage of not wasting water when
    you are gone for long periods of time. 
    

  re-1  I assume that any ice that begins to form floats to the top.
    
    An interesting fact is that if ice had a greater density than water it
    would sink. And when ice from the poles formed, and sank to the bottom
    of the oceans, they would cool (from the tons of ice at the bottoms)
    and eventually the *entire* world would be a frozen wastland. Because
    all the water would eventually freeze due to the ice masses.
    

    Hmmmm I don't think that the floating ice theory would solve your
    drain/trap freezing problems.  Since the ice will form on the inside of
    the walls of the drain, it would ADHERE very nicely there!  It wouldn't
    have a chance to float up to the top.  You're drain will still freeze.
    
    The anitfreeze idea is a good 'n' though.  It'll only take a pint or less
    to do the trick.
    
    Don (Whose pipes froze last night!)

    This may sound like a nutty idea, but how about using a dipstick heater
    (car) for keeping a drain unfrozen?
    
    Peter

    Speaking of frozen pipes, here's my sad story, and a warning.  We had
    a FHW cast iron radiator in an entry foyer (between the front door and
    a french door).  Last winter, I noticed that the radiator was cold for
    a while, but it got hot again a while later, so I didn't think about the
    cause.  With the recent extended cold spell, the radiator got cold again.

    Of course, what was happening was the pipes going to the radiator were
    freezing.  The foyer got so cold that the radiator froze and exploded.
    A piece of cast iron about 4" in diameter flew about 5' without losing
    any noticeable altitude (judging from the nicks in the plaster).  Ice
    and sooty water got all over.  Of course, this happened on Xmas weekend,
    so we couldn't get it fixed till Tuesday.  BTW, we had the radiator
    removed altogether.

    The pipes going to the radiator went through an inaccessable part of the
    house, right next to the foundation.  For some reason, houses of the
    era and location (1930's, Boston) have inner walls in the basement
    that leave areas between the foundation and basement walls that are
    dead space.  We have lath-and-rough-plaster ceilings in our
    unfinished basement (another peculiarity of the era and place), so
    this area gets no heat from the basement.

    I believe the problem was caused by setting back the setback thermostat
    too far (10 degrees), so the heat didn't kick on at night, and the
    pipes could get frozen.  The plumber told us that we weren't saving
    any money either, and recommended no more than a 5 degree setback,
    with a 60 degree minimum.

>    This may sound like a nutty idea, but how about using a dipstick heater
>    (car) for keeping a drain unfrozen?

This may sound like an even nuttier question, but (not having seen a dipstick
heater (unless it's a nerd's electric blanket)) can you stick one of these in
a pipe (PVC no less) so that it's water tight?

Jon

    A dipstick heater is water/oil tight. It is nothing more than a
    low resistance heater that you use in your car motor oil pan to
    keep your oil warm. I have seen then used to keep buckets of water
    from freezing at a neighbor's farm. it works as long as you keep
    at least three inches of the end submerged.
                                       
    
    Jim

    
    I've bought and moved into a Victorian in Dorchester (YES-there ARE
    NICE neighborhoods in Dorchester!)....I've been there 2-weeks now.
    
    On the 4th day there I was taking a shower and all of a sudden the 
    water went cold.  I finished getting ready for work and went downstairs
    to "check things out".  I don't know anything...OK.  The base of the
    water heater was warm but the pipe at the top that was marked "HOT" was
    stone-cold.  I determined that in all this cold weather we are having 
    "something" had frozen.  So I called in a plumber (fortunately my dad
    who is retired lives with me and is home all day.)
    
    I called home at lunch to find out how bad it really was.  Well, it
    cost $44.00 to find out that I have a  25 gallon water heater. The
    plumber did say that the "flame" was low and adjusted it a bit to make
    the water hotter.  
    
    I know I have alot to learn....hope this gives a chuckle.  I'd be mad
    at myself but I haven't stopped laughing yet.  

    Well, here's  my  tale of woe, consisting of lots of little errors
    ending up with some frozen pipes.  Luckily, none of them burst.

    The radiators  halfway  up the stairs and in the upstairs bathroom
    are  both  on  the downstairs thermostat. I think that was done to
    save  pipe  when  plumbing  the  system.  It sure makes it hard to
    regulate the temperature in the bedrooms (which are all upstairs.)

    The clock  that  determines  when the temperature setback upstairs
    should  occur  stopped  (Someone  noticed  this, and set it to the
    correct  time. Since the battery was dead, this didn't help much.)  

    The thermostats have a normal temperature setting and a lever that
    controls  the amount to set back. (Delta, not absolute.) I told my
    fiance  to  turn  the  setback to a 5 degree delta, but she didn't
    realize  that  5  meant 5, so she set it back 10 degrees. At 5:30,
    the  downstairs  thermostat warms the downstairs (and the upstairs
    bathroom,  which  is across from the thermostat). Around 9:30 I go
    upstairs to find it quite cold. Since it was 60 at the thermostat,
    and  it  was set for 58, it didn't turn on. Since the heating pipe
    runs  up  an outside, poorly insulated wall, it froze. The plumber
    was able to thaw it this morning by connecting a huge power supply
    to  it,  using  the pipe itself as a heating element. It only took
    half an hour using a 120v 15A (input) power supply. 1.8kw is a lot
    of power to put into 25 feet of pipe.

    Nobody warned  my  about  this  sort  of thing before I bought the
    house.

--David

    
    RE:  Note 1860.21 by FAYE::AREY "Proofreader for a Skywriting Company" >

    > Hmmmm I don't think that the floating ice theory would solve your
    > drain/trap freezing problems.  Since the ice will form on the inside of
    > the walls of the drain, it would ADHERE very nicely there!  It wouldn't
    > have a chance to float up to the top.  You're drain will still freeze.
    
    It *DOES* work.  I have a bathroom in a very cold crawl space, and
    I have *never* had the trap below the tub freeze while the water
    was left running slowly.  The only time it froze was when the water
    was dripping so slowly that the supply pipes froze.  

>    I have a bathroom in a very cold crawl space... 

Hmmm...  Interesting.  Is that the bathroom you tell unwanted visiting 
relatives to use?

:^) :^) :^)

Paul

    
    RE .29
    
    Actually the bathroom is *OVER* a cold crawl space, not in it.
    The supply pipes and the trap are in the crawl space.
    

    We've had a frozen trapp since about a week before the holidays. 
    The tub is on the outside wall, and the house is on a slab.  During the
    fall we had brought down the grade of the lawn, so we think frost may
    have gotten under the house where the trapp is.  Just a waiting game 
    now....have a small skating rink in the bathtub.   Grrrrr
    

re .31	 Have you considered purchasing a resistant dip-stick oil heater,
	the type used for heating auto engine oil.  I've heard somewhere
	in the notes... that they've been used to keep livestock water from
	freezing.      

		     ****That naturally would only be used to clear
			 and drain the tub.... not for electrocution
			 of people or pets!!****

    The insurance adjuster came yesterday to look at the damage from our
    frozen radiator.  He apoligized for the delay, saying that he'd spent
    the previous week looking at *serious* damage from the cold weather --
    people who had to move to hotels for the duration.  He mentioned
    a million-dollar house in Newton that had just undergone $300K in
    renovations, all of which has to be redone.  BTW, this house belongs
    to a Digital employee.

    
    RE: .31
    
    > We've had a frozen trapp since about a week before the holidays. 
    > The tub is on the outside wall, and the house is on a slab.  During the
    > fall we had brought down the grade of the lawn, so we think frost may
    > have gotten under the house where the trapp is.  Just a waiting game 
    > now....have a small skating rink in the bathtub.   Grrrrr

    Have you tried thawing the trap with boiling water?  That's how I've 
    thawed mine in the past.  Even if you have, I would try it again,
    as the weather is much warmer now.
    
    -tm
    
       

    I had a similar problem and found that a low wattage light bulb in a spun 
    aluminum reflector( ie drop light or clip light or for that matter an old 
    table lamp and some foil) will generate enough heat to keep the trap thawed.
    
       Bill
    

    This isn't a water plumbing question, but an air plumbing question.  I
    plan to 'plumb' the garage for air and was looking at 3/4 or 1 inch
    copper pipes.  Someone mentioned PVC pipe since it's a lot cheaper and
    easier to install.  The maximum psi I'll be using is 125.
    
    Any thoughts?  Will the PVC stand up as well as the copper?  How will
    it handle being pressurized and de-pressurized many times?  I don't
    plan to leave it pressurized when I'm not using the air compressor.
    
    Dave

    Dave since you are in the southern part of the US...actually it
    really doesn't matter which you use. Schedule 40  PVC tubing
    is fine for air. It's easy to install and is less dangerous when you
    want to change someting or add a line or fitting. Just cut it and
    glue in a whatever you want. The copper requires a torch and heat!!
    
    
    Jim

    It's also a lot cheaper!  Does it get damaged by freezing?  It does get
    cold down sometimes....
    
    Dave

    If you have it secured and don't yank on it when it's cold, it won't
    break. You should put valves in low spots to drain water out of the
    system. Also a water seperator might not be a bad idea either, since
    it gets humid down there too. I have seen it used up here and it
    has frozen...it didn't break either, but who knows how many times
    it will go thru the freeze/thaw cycle. 
    
    Jim
    
    btw I have rubber air lines running all over my shop. I wanted to
    use PVC...but this stuff was free and delivered to the shop. I just
    attached fittings and ran it where I needed it. Just like PVC...only
    easier and cheaper.

How about a FHW heating system?  Is there any reason to use/not use PVC for
the runs between the boiler and the radiators of a heating system?

-Mike

Re: .20

Yes, it's not rated for water that hot.  Even CPVC, which can be used for
hot water supplies, can't be used at the temperatures that a FHW system
can get to.  Stick with copper.

				Steve

    I have a boken PVC "T" connector, does anyone now how I can disolve the
    connections for the pipes that join the "T".  I would like to replace
    just the "T" but the glue has formed a strong bond.  Thanks in advance.
    
    						Rob.

    As far as I know, no way.  I'd cut off the pipes going to the tee
    and put in short sections with straight connectort to get back to
    the length you need.  The parts are cheap enough that it's just
    not worth fooling around for hours trying to salvage a couple inches
    of pipe.

      Ditto .1.
      
      PVC  is  not  actully  "glued"  together.   The  process is called
      "solvent welding".  The stuf you put on  the  pipe  is  not  glue,
      although  most  of us call it that.  It is a solvent that actually
      melts the surfaces that are being  joined.   The  melted  surfaces
      merge  together  and  harden  to  form the joint.  It is virtually
      impossible to take such a joint apart in any way that  will  leave
      the  pipe  and/or  fitting  re-usable.  Cut it out and replace it,
      along with short sections of the adjacent pipe.

    Thanks for the responses I had a feeling that would be the outcome. 
    Any ideas about detaching the PVC from metal.  The PVC is part of a
    pumb and it originates from metal threaded piping.  Is the compound
    that joins these also unsoluable?  Will I have just have to chip it away?
    Thanks again, Rob.

If it's attached to threaded metal pipe, it is likely just threaded on, with
(hopefully) teflon tape or some other similar product wrapped around the
pipe threads to prevent leaks.  Once you cut off most of it, you'll likely
find that it will unthread without too much difficulty.

Be sure to use fresh teflon tape when threading on the new coupling.

				Steve

    Sounds good, thanks for all the input.  Looks like I have a fun job
    ahead of me.  Rob.

    Did you know that teflon tape acts like a lubricant to
    alow the two parts to screw together tight. It doesn't
    really seal anything.
    

< Note 3813.6 by JUPITR::BUSWELL "We're all temporary" >
>>>Did you know that teflon tape acts like a lubricant to
    alow the two parts to screw together tight. It doesn't
    really seal anything.

Teflon tape displaces the void between the sections of thread;
though it doesn't bond.

RE the defective PVC "T" connection; I replaced a drippy "T"
fitting in my cawl space. Luckily, I had enough slack in the
pipes to couple into the new T joint. I did buy three new
couplers and a new T fitting. I had an old section of PVC pipe so
I was ready to make a T joint and short sections to take up the
difference in the pipe lost in the cutting of the pipe at the T
joint.

cal hoe 

      A  footnote  to the reply a few back that mentioned the connection
      of metal and PVC pipe:  In a threaded joint between metal pipe and
      PVC  the  PVC  should have the MALE thread and the metal should be
      FEMALE.  i.e. the plastic screws into the metal.  
      
      If  you  screw  metal  into  plastic  it  is very easy to split the
      plastic connector by making it just a little too tight.  I've done
      this!  I've also been told that "normal" expansion and contraction
      of the metal can cause the plastic to split some time later.
      
      When  the  plastic  is  screwed  into  metal  it just gets pressed
      tighter without spliting.  The metal is too strong to be split  by
      the platic.
      
      Now  I  wouldn't  bother  to  change a joint that was done "wrong"
      unless it developed a leak.  But, if it is wrong and you  have  it
      apart anyway it might be good to make a change. If you have a male
      thread on the metal pip it might be easiest to  make  up  a  short
      section  of  copper  pipe  with FEMALE threaded connectors on both
      ends.  Screw it onto the male metal threads and then screw a  male
      PVC  fittion  into  the  other  end.  You can also buy compression
      fittings that work on both PVC and copper  pipe.   That  might  be
      easier and/or cheaper, especially if your not into soldering.

    Has anyone tried connecting copper pipe sections together with the Quest
    plastic compression fittings rather than soldering? It seems like an
    easy and quick, although expensive, way to do plumbing. The directions
    on the Quest fittings state that they can be used with PBT or copper
    but I'd like to hear some first hand comments rather than trust
    the package directions.

    I've used the Quest plastic shutoff valves on copper pipe with no
    problems.  They really are quite easy to use.  I've not used them to
    join lengths of pipe, but don't see why it also wouldn't work well.
    
    Bob 

    Did exactly that about 2 years ago and haven't lost a drop of water
    from any of the 20 or so connections.
    
    ...just make sure the metal washer (the one with the little 'teeth')
    is pointed in the right direction.
    
    The directions say to tighten until the fitting 'squeaks', and the 
    some small amount more. (1/4? 1/2 turn?). That's all it took!
    
    Edd

      I've   used   the   QUEST   type   of   compression   fittings  on
      copper-to-copper,     plastic-to-plastic     (PVC)     and      on
      copper-to-plastic  transitions.   I've  also used valves with this
      type of fitting.  They seem to work fine.  If they leak  when  you
      turn the water on just tighten the nut a litle bit more. I've neve
      had one leak later on.
      
      They  are  relatively  expensive compared to solvent welded PVC or
      soldered copper.  For that reason I use them only in  places  that
      are  likely  to  need to be taken apart, or for additions where it
      would be difficult to solder or I  don't  want  to  wait  for  the
      solvent weld to set.

	RE: -< PVC for air? >-

	For what it's worth, DeVilbiss Service Bulletin SB-30-007-A
	(instructions for compressor installation and use) has
	in bold letters:

		THE USE OF PLASTIC PIPE, SOLDERED JOINTS, OR
		FAILURE TO INSURE SYSTEM CAPABILITY OF FLEX
		JOINTS AND FLEXIBLE HOSE CAN RESULT IN MECHANICAL
		FAILURE, PROPERTY DAMAGE, AND SERIOUS INJURY.

		PLASTIC OR PVC PIPE IS NOT DESIGNED FOR USE
		WITH COMPRESSED AIR.  REGARDLESS OF ITS INDICATED
		PRESSURE RATING, PLASTIC PIPE CAN BURST FROM
		AIR PRESSURE.  USE ONLY METAL PIPE FOR AIR
		DISTRIBUTION LINES.

    Oh well, it's all in place now.  Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
    
    Dave

    re: .26  FWIW

    I found it interesting, the other day when the gas company was moving my
    gas meter from in the basement to outside, that the guy doing the work
    told me that new lines are run in plastic (PVC probably) pipe. I don't
    know what schedule, but probably heavier than 40. I would have though it
    wouldn't take the pressure, but the gas main runs at about 60 psi, much
    less than a compressed air line (mine peaks at about 125 psi).

    .27  Now when your joints start to blow bubbles, you'll know you got a
    problem. :-)

re .26:

Did they give a reason why they felt plastic was bad for air?  After all,
pressure is pressure, and you don't have to worry about water hammer in
air lines, as previously mentioned.

-Mike

    	I'm wondering about the warning re. plastic too... It may be that
    some people attach the plastic plumbing to the tank/regulator/etc. I
    can see that becomming a fatigue problem. You should have a hose
    between the tank and the start of the plastic distribution system, just
    like HVAC systems put a flex connection between fans and the ducts.
    	Anyone know more about this warning? - Chris

    I originally had a rigid connection between the tank and the wall
    mounted lines, but replaced that with flex hose the first time I tried
    to pressurize the line.  I must say that the pvc 'creaks' when I
    pressurize it, but I've come to ignore it...
    
    Dave

    Most air compressors put  a  small amount of oil mist into the air they
    compress.  It is possible that this  oil  may attack the PVC pipe,  and
    the *combination* of oil mist and stress in  the  pipe  wall  (from air
    pressure) may be the cause of failure.
    
    gjd

    But in in-line air filter/water seperator should take out any oil in
    the compressed air.  Also, wouldn't the oil tend to fall to the bottom
    of the tank and since the air outlet is near the top, very little would
    enter the filter anyway.
    
    Dave

I have a need to run some pipes from my house to the back of my yard.  The 
distance is a long way - my yard is about 2.5 acres.  I would say I would
be crossing an acre, start to finish.  The pipes are for both electrical and
water.

We are putting in a pasture for my fiance's horse.  We have a summer water
supply available, but no winter supply - the pond freezes over.  I was thinking
of renting one of those ditch digging things that Taylor rental has to dig
the ditch.  I seem to recall them saying that it goes to about 10 inches deep.

The other pipe is for running electric to the area.  We are only going to put
up a light for now, but eventually we want to build a barn, with the resulting
needs for lights, power, etc.  I was thinking that I would be better off if
I ran the wire in a pipe while it was underground.  I know that there is a
wire specifically designed for underground work.  I planned on using that
wire in a pipe.

My questions:

  - For the electrical pipe, I figure that 10 inches is plenty deep.  Is
    there any special kind of pipe that would be proper for running the
    wires?  Also, does anyone know the formal name for the kind of wire
    that I want to use?

  - For the water pipe, I am not as sure about the depth.  I was thinking
    of using pvc pipe to run the water.  The needs would be for drinking by
    the horse, running a hose, washing, etc.  Would this be a good idea?  Or
    is there another kind of pipe that would be better for this purpose?  I
    have also been thinking that I might want to run hot water out there, as
    well.  However, I am wondering about the distance and whether the water
    would cool off too fast, especially in the winter.  Also, would there
    be a problem with frozen pipes?  How would I handle this?  Is the answer
    to dig the ditch deeper than the 10 inches that this machine would go?
    I can do this, but it would certainly be more work.

Regards,

Ed

Where are you located?  10 inches isn't enough for New England, the frost line
is some 3-4 feet deep.  If you don't get below the frost line, the pipe will
freeze during cold periods.

The PVC pipe that's black snd comes in rolls is probably the best (for water)
since it's easy to work with and can carry potable water.

-Mike

I forgot to mention that I am located in Chelmsford, Mass.  So winters are 
definitely a concern.

I was hoping that I would not have to go down 4 feet.  Assuming that I do,
is there an easy way to dig the trench that would be needed to lay the pipe?
Is there a machine that can be rented at a reasonable rate?  This is a long
distance, but not long enough to justify hiring a backhoe, necessarily.  Or
is it?  How much would that cost me?

Are there special connectors for the pipe connections to the house?

Also, I have a dug well that I was thinking of using sometime down the road.
This made me wonder how those people who have wells handle the hookup to
their house.  Do you have the pipes 3-4 feet deep and then bring them to the
surface at the well head?  If so, how do you keep the part that is not very
deep from freezing?  I know that I must be missing something here.  It can't
be as hard as I am making it sound to myself.

Ed..

When we built our house we burried the utlity lines for about 200 feet.
(Electric, phone, cable -- we have well water and a septic system.)
This was done by hiring a backhoe w/operator for one day.  He dug,
I got down in the mud and ran the wires and conduit.

By all means go down 4 feet.  If you go less than that you're water
pipe will freeze and both pipes will break from frost heaves within
a few years.

    RE: .0
    
    The wire that you are refering to is called UF cable.  This stands for
    (drum roll please...) Underground Feeder cable.  For a long run, you
    will want a relatively large wire.  If you are just runnng lights
    without a panel at the end, you can probably use 10-2 w/G UF cable.
    If you are planning to add circuits later, you might be better off with
    a 2" conduit with 2-O SEU or SER cable which will feed into a breaker
    panel.  Check with the local inspector for the conduit requirements for
    your area.
    
    Dan

        The only copy of the Electrical Code I have at work is a
    1984, but I doubt if the burial depth requirements have
    changed.

        Direct burial cable (UF) is 24 inches
        Rigid nonmetalic conduit (PVC) is 18 inches

        Pulling wires long distances through conduit (I don't
    remember .0 specifying how far) is difficult to impossible.
    I would guess that every 100 feet or so you would have to
    come to a junction box (PVC) at or near the surface to
    facilitate pulling the wires.  No splices hidden in the
    ground.  NEC says no and it is asking for a failure.

        Consider a smaller conduit beside the power conduit for
    telphone, intercom, alarms, remote control, etc.  These
    things cannot (there are exceptions) share the conduit with
    power conductors.
    
        If there is a barn is the future, plan for adequate
    power.  Lights, water trough heater(s), fans, engine heaters,
    etc.  It can add up fast.  Anything that makes heat is lots
    of watts = big wires.

        Long wire runs require oversized conductors as previously
    stated.  There are table in NEC which specify what is needed.
    Long runs of large conductors are big bucks and hard work to
    pull.  Be sure the conduit is adequate if not oversized.
    Again NEC will tell what size for size and number of
    conductors.

        If you need water in the winter the line (all of it) has
    to be below frost.  No way to avoid it that I can think of
    short of leaving the water running contantly.  There is a
    frost proof hydrant that will do what you need.  The actual
    valve is below frost.  When the water is off a drain is
    opened to allow the stand pipe to drain.  Neat rig.  The pipe
    will have to enter the house below frost also.  This will mean
    a hole drilled through the concrete.  Rent a good hammer
    drill and bit.  Fill around the pipe with mortar and seal
    (outside) with a liberal application of roofing cement.  I
    would use the black water pipe typically used for well lines
    and such, mentioned previously.  There are all types of
    adapter fitting available.  Use a lot larger size than you
    would think is necessary.  If you are talking hundreds of
    feet I would go no smaller than 1 inch may inch and a
    quarter, which should cost $15-20 per hundred.

        Run hot water from the house?  I would seriously doubt
    it.  Below frost the average ground temp. is 50-60 degrees
    year around.  Unless the pipe is very well insulated and I
    don't what one would use, the water will be cold again by the
    time it gets to the barn.

        I would price renting a small backhoe with a trenching
    bucket.  I just had one (John Deere 310C = large) for a week
    to dig stumps.  It doesn't take long to get the hang of the
    wobble sticks.  Hint - Practice away from the house!

        Hope there is something useful here.  Anyway you look at
    it, it is a expensive and a lot of work.




    Regards,
    Peter Duke


PS      We (3 of us) dug and hauled 25 stumps and moved half the
    dirt in the yard last week.  Fifty three hours on the
    machine.

    re: .2, Do you have the pipes 3-4 feet deep and then bring them to the
surface at the well head?  If so, how do you keep the part that is not very
deep from freezing?  
    
    The pipe is connected to the well casing below the frost line (I always
    forget the name of the connector that is used).  The connection you
    might see above ground at the well head is for the wiring to the well
    pump.
    
    __Rich

Please see notes 1037 and 1038 for the electricity, it's already discussed
there.  Let's leave this note for discussions of the plumbing.

set /moderator=off

The only way you can avoid burying the pipe about 4 feet down is to plan to
run the water - constantly - for the entire winter.  If you keep the water
moving through the pipe it won't be able to freeze.  Note though that come
springtime you will have an enormous ice block at the end where you dump the
water.  Maybe by Late May it will be melted.

Also, forget about hot water.  Over a run of that length, the water will be at
ground temperature by the time it gets to the other end, regardless of how hot
it was when it started.  You can get a small electric instant-hot water heater.
The ones that I've seen are only about 9" square by 3" deep, and will heat
about 1 gallon of water per minute to about 140 degrees.  They do take a 40 amp
220 volt breaker, though, so if you want to do that in the future it may alter
your plans for the electricity.

You can dig the trench with a backhoe yourself.  You can rent a small one for
a day for $175, and it's pretty easy to learn how to use it.  We used one to
dig the foundation for our garage and it was simple.  It's also fun - my wife
and I wound up having timed turns digging because we both thought it was a
blast.

Paul

   RE: .6
    
  <<The pipe is connected to the well casing below the frost line (I always
  << forget the name of the connector that is used).  The connection you
  << might see above ground at the well head is for the wiring to the well
  << pump.
    __Rich
   Is this a PITLESS ADAPTER?
   mike

    re: .8: " Is this a PITLESS ADAPTER? "
    
       Yes.  Anyone know here this name comes from?
    
    __r

    re: .9
    
    My guess: Back in the "old days", the connection from the well to
    the pipe going to the house was made with standard threaded pipe
    joints.  Since one would have to get at this to pull the well pipe,
    the top 5' or so of the well was put down in a hole (a "pit") with
    a cover.  Then some genius came up with this slide-on gizzie known
    as the "pitless adapter" because then you didn't need the hole in
    the ground anymore to get at the pipe fittings.

re: -1 

	Ok, now try this one:

    Why are outside faucets called Hose Bibs(H.B.) on blue prints?


andy

p.s.  I understand the hose part :)

    .11:
    
    I can see why they call them that now:
    
    When I shut either of them off, the water in the hose sprays out
    around the anti-siphon contraption now required by law.  Having a
    waterproof bib covering the clapboards would help prevent rot...
    
    Dick

According to Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary, a "bibcock" is "a 
faucet having a bent-down nozzle", and the big dictionary out in the hall
says a "bibb" is "a faucet; a bibcock".

"bib" means "to drink", so I suppose that's the connection.

	I had a problem where the pipes would sound a loud foghorn type
	noise which would resonate through the house for up to 10 seconds.
	It almost always happened when a downstairs water supply would
	stop filling (toilet or washer, usually).  I had been trying to
	quiet the pipes for a long time, including some helpful suggestions
	from this note, but nothing worked.

	So I called Pennichuck Water Works hoping that they'd have an
	idea, and they sent out somebody to check the water pressure.
	Two guys showed up, one from the water dept. and one with the
	pressure meter.  I demonstrated the problem and they looked around,
	checked a few things, but couldn't figure out what was wrong.
	Then they went into the bathroom and figured that the noise was
	coming from the shutoff valve leading into the toilet.  Mr. Water
	checked the valve and realized that it was almost closed.  He opened
	the valve up and we haven't heard the noise since!

	The cause of the problem was a valve which was just barely opened.
	This valve was acting like a reed, resonating when the water flowed
	through at a high pressure after the water supply was shut off.

	Dave

Regarding copper pipe cutters (the kind with the hardened wheel that slices the
pipe as it's tightened and the tool is rotated about the pipe): how can I avoid
putting a little "flare" on the end?

	---------^
                 |
                 |
                 |
        ---------.

It's not much, but you can feel it and, most importantly, it prevents the pipe
from entering the fitting.

It doesn't happen on brand-new wheels, but I don't do that much cutting before
the flaring starts again.  Is there a lot of difference in the quality of
cutting wheels?  I've bought mine at O'Connor's, which has decent stuff. How
often does a plumber change his wheel?

I don't use excessive pressure on the wheel - I have to do quite a few turns of
the cutter before it cuts through.  ("Quite a few", that is, relative to the
professionals that I've seen doing it.)  Should I use *more* force and less
turns?

I guess that I've concluded that it must be the quality of the wheel.  Any other
ideas?

I have one of those cutters and I've never seen any outward flare.  In fact
it produces an _inward_ flare if I use too much pressure, as the wheel bends
the end of pipe in as it cuts it.  It's whatever brand Spag's sells, for what
it's worth.

-Mike

    I noticed the same effect when using a cutter which had a dull
    wheel (took lots of time to cut through the pipe).  When I used
    another cutter with a better wheel, it took less effort, less
    time, and also seemed to eliminate the outward flaring effect.

    What brand of tubing cutter?  I've got a Rigid (or is it Ridgid?), 
    and never had a problem.  Relatively expensive tools, but they
    are very, very good.

    Hmmm... over 4000 notes, and no discussion about plastic plumbing? 
    Must be too simple a subject.
    
    I'm about to re-do a lot of plumbing in order to add some new lines. 
    My existing drain pipes are all ABS.  All I can find in the usual
    places (Spag's, Somerville Lumber, local home centers, hardware stores,
    etc.) is the bright white PVC stuff.  I know that if I use a cement
    labelled PVC/CPVC/ABS, they'll glue together OK, but...
    
    	Is it OK to do that?
    	What's the difference between ABS and PVC?
    	Does anyone sell ABS?
    
    No matter how well I plan this, I'll probably need to run back and get
    a few extra pieces, so I'll need a reasonably local (central Mass)
    source.
    
    Mainly, I'm concerned that a mix of black and white plumbing might
    cause some questions/concern when we sell the house.
    
    /Don

>   labelled PVC/CPVC/ABS, they'll glue together OK, but...
    
>   	Is it OK to do that?

        The plumber I questioned in Nashua said no problem.  Use
    a good primer and glue and you won't have a problem.  Only
    your local code enforcement office can tell you if it is
    'legal'.  New Hamshire is pretty reasonable.  Seems like Mass
    is going backward.

>   	What's the difference between ABS and PVC?

        Didn't get an answer to this one.  I seem to recall that
    it is used more in industry (?).  May be more resistant to
    some chemicals or the like.

>   	Does anyone sell ABS?

        Don't know of anyone that does.

Heat tape; drop cords; insulated pipes. NOW, what to do when the
pipes are frozen?

A man in Denver burned his house down, using a torch to thaw
frozen water lines. Care to share your ideas on thawing frozen
water pipes?

calvin

    Those giant torpedo heaters work pretty well, even in drafty crawl
    spaces.  If you fire one up near a gas fired appliance, check the
    pilot light after you shut off the torpedo -- they generate a bunch
    of wind and sometimes blow out the pilot.  A 150k btu torpedo easily
    bakes a basement.  Pipes thaw pretty quick though and if there's any
    leaks, they'll show up right quick too.  I'd pick up a bunch of
    different compression fittings to fix any leaks encountered.
    

    If the pipes are accessible, a hair dryer is usually adequate.  A heat
    gun is even better since the flow of hot air is more focused.
    
    But usually the blockage occurrs in a stretch of pipe that runs along
    an external wall where there is no direct access to the pipe.  I've had
    modest success with heating up the rooms in question and putting
    portable heaters facing the walls containing the pipe run.  To
    supplement that, I try to apply as much heat as possible to the part of
    the pipe nearest the blockage that is accessible.  A heat gun on its
    high setting works for this.  The theory is that some of the heat will
    be conducted along the pipe to the blockage.  Holding a piece of scrap
    metal against any combustables serves as an adequate heat shield to
    prevent an inadvertent fire.
    
    Frozen pipes haven't been as much of a problem in recent winters. 
    Mild weather in the Northeast probably has more to do with this than
    anything else.  But I've also reduced the setback on the thermostats
    during cold spells.   My kitchen is most prone to frozen pipes.  Since
    that's on its own heating circuit, I set the temp back only 3 degr at
    night.  Ventilating louvres in the doors under the sink also let in
    warm air.
    
    With record temps in the mid 60's, it's often feels warmer outside the
    house than inside.  Frozen pipes haven't been on the priority list
    lately although that western cold is finally starting to arrive.
    
    - gene

    My house  is  prone to freezing one particular pipe that neither I
    nor  my  plumber  can  do  much to with a torch. They have a LARGE
    transformer  (and  maybe rectifier) which was probably designed as
    an  arc-welder.  They  then  hook up the output of this to the two
    ends  of the pipe in question. The resistance of the pipe makes it
    act like an electric heater and melts the ice. The output wires of
    this  unit are about 2 ga., and they get hot to the touch. There's
    an awful lot of current involved.

--David

    I've lived in a 4 story barn for the past 10 years.  This barn was
    built in the late 1800's to early 1900's.  One section of the barn has
    been done over as an apartment.  My only means of heat is a wood stove
    and most of my pipes are exposed to the cold.  I've been using heat
    tape on all my pipes and in 10 years i've only replaced 2 10 ft
    sections.  My well < point > is in the basement and I had to build a
    box with a cover around it to keep it from freezing, inside the box I 
    have a 40 watt light on all the time, plus a jug of water.
    
    FYI: This barn is not weather tight, although I have done some
    insulating to the place, you can still feel that cold wind through
    the walls.
    
    

    re .39
    
    Heating of pipes using current should only be done if you are sure you
    have water in them (why else are they frozen??).  If there is no water
    in them (if the water had run out due to a burst pipe), or only water
    in them part way, then there is a risk that you will melt the solder 
    in all the connections because there is no water to dissipate the heat 
    generated by running a current through them.  
    
    I have had to have that routine with the welding machine done to my
    heating pipes (FHW)!  Since then, I run that stuff called winter guard
    in the heating system in the winter.  Problem is, it causes the pipes
    to bang when the furnace comes on. I think the stuff causes more
    foaming and air bubbles.
    
    I called a welding company the last time it happened.  They are quite
    familiar with the procedure and can generate more current for those
    longer runs than a machine that plugs into the wall (they have a motor
    generator system in their truck).
    
    What I'd really like to do is correct the problem by locating *where*
    the pipes freeze.  Does anyone know of how to get access to an infra
    red video camera?  In this weather, I'd run up the heating system and
    look for the bright spots on the scope - and fix it in the summer. 
    Maybe I could use infra red film for my camera.  It's really stupid
    that the heating pipes freeze.  That means I'm losing heat badly
    somewhere.
    
    Peter

    Anybody catch "60 Minutes" last night?
    
    They did an episode on polybutylene plumbing. Seems that some people are
    having some problems, to put it mildly. Everyone was blaming everyone
    else, but it apparently came down to failing parts. 
    
    The manufacturer, US Brass, is the manufacturer of Quest fittings.
    Another company whose name I forget was mentioned explicity. Quest
    was not mentioned by name.
    
    The story seemed to revolve around the crimped type of connections,
    no mention of the compression types. They did allude to possible 
    problems with the polybutyl tubing itself. The manufacturer asserted
    that all the problems were caused by improper installation, yet was
    unable to make a lasting connection themselves. Their excuses seemed
    to be lame at best.
    
    It's not beyond "60 Minutes" to sensationalize, or just be down-right
    wrong, so before there's a run on copper, does anybody know anything
    else? How are all these fittings I just read about holding up? (Mine
    haven't had a problem, knock on wood).
    
    I just returned from a trip to my local supplier where the Quest
    fittings are still in stock, seemingly indicative of there at least
    being no mass recall at this time.    
    Edd

    My limited personal experience wth polybutylene was to try it on
    a short run, and then rip it out and use CPVC instead, as I was unhappy
    with the compression fittings.  I'm not aware of any problems using
    CPVC, so it's not just a choice between PB and copper.
    
    			Steve

It's quite comforting to know that my lawn sprinkler system is
installed with the polybutylene pipes that Shell/(mumble)/US
Brass sold to my lawn sprinkler contractor. Here's keeping my
fingers crossed.

calvin

    Cal - How long has your system been installed?
    
    Edd

    For a lawn sprinkler system, PB would be the way to go, in my opinion.
    I just wouldn't use it inside a house.
    
    			Steve

    > PB would be the way to go...
    
    I'd be inclined to agree the effect of a failure certainly wouldn't be
    as drastic, but 60 minutes also showed some scenes where underground
    PBT pipes had failed, washing big holes in the street...
    
    Edd

Edd,

Our system is two seasons old (1989). I saw the 60 minutes
segment about the problems with Dallas city lines in which they
are replacing ALL 370+ miles of PB tubing and replacing it with
copper.

calvin

    I think the MAIN reasons people use PB tubing for sprinkler systems are:
    
    1. Weather resistance. The PB material itself stands up to freezing
    conditions that MANY PEOPLE in northern California are now aware of!
    PVC of any type doesn't hold up to frozen water as well as PB which
    actually 'gives' slightly.
    
    2. PB usually comes in 'soft' rolls rather than rigid 10-foot sections
    that need to be pieced together. PB can be laid in a trench that snakes
    around the yard quite easily.
    
    3. Sprinkler systems are not pressurized all the time. The material
    tends to 'shrink' back to it's original size and rigidity after being
    de-pressurized for some time. Once pressurized, it begins to have a
    'give' or a slight dimensional change. (The same effect solves the #1
    freezing problem above). In a sprinkler system, the water only remains
    on for an hour or less typically... 
    
    For Indoor use, or ANY use that remains PRESSURIZED continuously,
    I too would use Copper or PVC/CPVC.

    According to the 60 Minutes report, the failures stem from the fact
    that an anti-oxidant was not added to the polybutylene, resulting in
    oxidation and failure. Being under pressure undoubtedly hastened the
    failure, but wasn't the cause...
    
    Edd

    re: .38 and others
    
>   For a lawn sprinkler system, PB would be the way to go, in my opinion.
    
    You are advocating the use of LEAD pipe (Pb) ?  :-)
    
    Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
    
    -Bob

    I had a similar SLOW TUB as (.5).  Moreover, when ever I used the
    bathroom sink, it would quickly overflow into the tub.  An interesting
    and rather horrible mixture of drain scum/hair would ring my tub.  I
    tried a snake...couldn't get it into the tub drain at all.  It went a long
    way into the sink, where it seemed to break up some scum (more flowing
    into the tub).  Also used a  plunger....again more gook into the tub.
    Both of these methods seemed to just stir up more debris and clog the
    drain more!  I also went the Drano route. I didn't want to use often,
    for I have a cess pool.  Anyway, no luck with this either.
    
    I went to Service Star in Framingham. They gave me a product called
    Drain Care (environmentally safe...I think you could eat it and live).
    You mix a couple teaspoons in H2O and let sit for 6 hours/once a day 
    over 3 days. I did this for the sink and tub.  After the first night, 
    nothing.  Second night nothing. Right before the third application, I 
    used a plunger in the tub (covered all air intakes with tape) and really 
    pumped away.  Tons of gook came up, and all of a sudden the drain ran 
    completely clear!
    
    This stuff is great!  The "Drano's" seem to just go to the clog.  Where
    this product gets all the stuff out of the pipes.  It's a natural 
    bacteria that breaks it up.  One 3 night application every 3 mos should
    avoid the servere build-up/clog that I had.
                                 
    
    I have a cess pool, so    

    
    Just had a lot of plumbing done - replacing cast iron junk with spiffy
    clean PVC.  My question is how do we dispose of all the old cast iron
    pipes?  I live in Hudson, NH. and I do have a call in to the town
    office but thought I would check with you all too.
    
    Thanks
    Carol

    If you don't mind lugging the stuff, would a metal recycler want it?
    You might even get some $$$ for it.
    
    Eric

    A metal recycler will probably give you a place to dump it, but I
    doubt that you'll get anythng for cast iron.  Last I knew, cast
    iron wasn't bringing any money at all.  That may have changed
    since though...worth checking!

    Two years ago,I brought 2200 lbs of cast iron to a scrap dealer. They
    gave me about $60.00.
    
    Marc H.

    So you're talking about $.03/lb....

    
    thanks - I'll try a scrap dealer.  Don't really care it I get anything
    for it - I'd just like to get it to an outfit that won't throw it in the
    Merrimack River or something.
    
    Carol
    

If there's a specific note on this, it's title isn't very clear...

I'm looking for suppliers of plumbing fixtures.  So far, I went to Standard of
Lynn and was extremely impressed.  Not only did the salesperson not try to sell
me something on the spot, he stayed with me at least 15 minutes after closing.
Then he told me he'd mail a proposal out in a couple of days detailing all the
stuff we talked about.  He was so confident of their prices he even invited me
to shop around a little before getting back to them, and hence this note.

I was hoping this could become a repository of places to shop...

-mark

    I've always tended to avoid the plumbing shops. Not because they didn't
    have nice "stuff"...but...because they wouldn't give me the same
    discount that the plumber's got.
    
    Marc H.

    I have just bought a new mobile home and am heading into my first
    winter with it.  My water tank is under the home in a crawl space which
    will be enclosed by plywood skirting.  The water tank is in an
    insulated box.
    
    The water line coming from the well is the 2" black pvc material.  This
    is connected to copper fittings on the tank which are then connected
    via smaller guage gray pvc to the supply line for the house (also gray
    pvc).  I have heat tape on the line from 2' below ground on the black
    pvc, up to and through the box, and up to within 1' of the bottom of
    the house where the house insulation begins.
    
    The heat tape is the heavy guage, two conductor wire type with a
    thermostat which is at the house end of the line.  My questions are:
    
    	1. Will the thermostat work properly when bound to the pvc pipe?
    	   Since the thermal conduction of the pvc is less than that of
           copper, how will this change the duty cycle of the heat tape?
    
        2. Will leaving the last 1' or so of pvc pipe unheated be a
           problem?  Of course, I will insulate it more heavily than the
           rest of the pipe, and I believe that if the heat tape works and
           keeps the rest of the line from freezing, then this section of pipe
           can't freeze (can it?).  The section is vertical and will always
           be full of water due to the pressure from the tank.
    
        3. The box is insulated with 2" pinkboard and assorted scraps of 
           fiberglas.  The heat tape runs through the box and so should 
           provide a heat source to keep the tank from freezing.  Does this
    	   sound reasonable?
    
    I'd much prefer to redesign this system now before the cold really
    hits, than trying to do it in the middle of a cold snap.
    
    		Rick

I've recently been the rounds of shopping for plumbing fixtures, primarily
toilets.  I've found that most everyone's prices are about the same for
the same merchandise - discounts off list are typically 10-15%.  I was
pleased to find that Masi Supply in Nashua beat the price of everyone else
I checked, including a so-called discount plumbing shop in Hookset, NH, by
a considerable margin, for a Kohler toilet.  Not only that, but they got it
within two days (everyone else told me a week to two weeks.)

Spag's has dramatically reduced their selection of fixtures, and what they
carry is relatively low quality.  I am disappointed.  I also checked HQ,
Builders Square, Grossman's, Somerville and a number of individual stores
who advertise "discount" prices.  I was astonished to find their quotes all
within a few dollars of each other - except for Masi who beat the rest by
better than $50.

				Steve

RE: <<< Note 1860.42 by TINKTU::SCHOFIELD >>>
    
                         -< heat tape on PVC? >-

   To try and answer your questions;
    
>>    	1. Will the thermostat work properly when bound to the pvc pipe?
    	   Since the thermal conduction of the pvc is less than that of
           copper, how will this change the duty cycle of the heat tape?
  
 Don't put it directly in contact with the pipe or the thermostat won't 
work properly.  I drape the thermostat end of my heat tape up over one of the 
"I" beam support braces and just let it breathe the fresh air.

>>        2. Will leaving the last 1' or so of pvc pipe unheated be a
           problem?  Of course, I will insulate it more heavily than the
           rest of the pipe, and I believe that if the heat tape works and
           keeps the rest of the line from freezing, then this section of pipe
           can't freeze (can it?).  The section is vertical and will always
           be full of water due to the pressure from the tank.
    
 No. The pipe shouldn't freeze with the last foot or so unwrapped.  

      3. The box is insulated with 2" pinkboard and assorted scraps of 
           fiberglas.  The heat tape runs through the box and so should 
           provide a heat source to keep the tank from freezing.  Does this
    	   sound reasonable?
    
Yes it sounds reasonable but,,,***BE CAREFUL***

 You may create too much heat if the tape is confined to the inside of the 
box. Heat tapes should not be enclosed by anything. That's how fires start.

 If you already have that much insulation around the tank, plus plywood 
skirting, under the home sounds like it's already pretty tight so you may not 
even need a heat tape. 
 Something else to consider, the heat that leaks out of the hot air ducting, 
(assuming you have the standard oil heat forced hot air system), that runs 
under the home provides quite a bit of heat. 

Re .-1
    
>  You may create too much heat if the tape is confined to the inside of the 
> box. Heat tapes should not be enclosed by anything. That's how fires start.

    The only heat tape in the box is the two foot section which crosses the
    width of the box.  That section wil be bound to the copper pipe
    fixtures and will have the thermal mass of the pipes/tank/water to
    dissipate its output.  It seems like that should work ok.  I think...
    
>  If you already have that much insulation around the tank, plus plywood 
> skirting, under the home sounds like it's already pretty tight so you may not 
> even need a heat tape. 
>  Something else to consider, the heat that leaks out of the hot air ducting, 
> (assuming you have the standard oil heat forced hot air system), that runs 
> under the home provides quite a bit of heat. 
    
    Well, I have LPG-fired FHA, and the underside of the home is insulated
    (albeit not too heavily) and has a heavy vapor barrier.  I _hope_ I
    won't get too much leakage from the heating system, but this is my
    first mobile home so I'm still learning.  I don't think I would want to
    risk going without heat tape even though the enclosed crawlspace
    shouldn't get too bad.  Better safe than sorry.
    
    Is there any way to check the heat tape for safe function?  Should I
    consider some sort of smoke alarm for the box?  Should the outlet be
    GFI protected? (I think it is).  Perhaps I could build a thermocouple
    driven alarm to detect temps above say 120 deg. F?
    
    		Rick

I'd suggest using Frostex cable instead of regular heat tape.  It costs more
but is self-regulating and WON'T overheat.

			Steve

RE: <<< Note 1860.44 by TINKTU::SCHOFIELD >>>
                        -< Box ok - how about alarms? >-

 Depending on how much pipe you have wrapped outside the box, you may not 
even need to get the tape inside the box. The warm water in the pipe outside 
the box should keep the insulated pipe inside the box from freezing. Thermal 
mass aside, heat tapes generate water hot enough that a pretty long run of 
pipe can be protected with a real short run of heat tape.

 Figuring you only need to raise the water temp. to 33' F. you aren't talking 
a massive heating operation here. I use a 5 foot heat tape for almost 10 feet 
of pipe, (including what's in the ground) and that created enough heat that 
you'd risk a burn from the cold water faucet in the bathroom, the closest tap 
if you weren't careful when you first turned it on. 

 With heat tapes, the only pipe you need to worry about wrapping is any that 
is exposed to direct outdoor or frost in the ground temperatures. If your 
inlet pipe from the well is under the house, (inside the skirting) you may not 
ever get frost around it anyhow.

>>    Well, I have LPG-fired FHA, and the underside of the home is insulated
>>   (albeit not too heavily) and has a heavy vapor barrier.  I _hope_ I
>>   won't get too much leakage from the heating system, but this is my
>>   first mobile home so I'm still learning.  I don't think I would want to
>>   risk going without heat tape even though the enclosed crawlspace
>>    shouldn't get too bad.  Better safe than sorry.
    

 Yeah, mine seemed tight when it was new too.. :-) Unless they're doing 
things differently now-a-days, In time humidity will cause the vapor barrier 
and insulation to sag and develop gaps. Once that happens you'll find out how 
time the manufacturer spent sealing up the ductwork.  :-)  

 One of these days I need to duct tape and insulate wrap the ductwork but it
isn't way up on my fun things to do list which is probably why I've put it 
off for so long. :-)

>> Is there any way to check the heat tape for safe function?  

 Yes. Get the heat tape with the finger pressure switch that you can just 
squeeze the contacts closed to test. These types usually have a clear plastic 
air filled bubble surrounding the thermostat and contacts. Mine lasted about 
10 years before it died.

>> Should I consider some sort of smoke alarm for the box?  

 Nahhh, just don't wrap the pipes inside it.

>> Should the outlet be GFI protected?

 *** DEFINITELY*** And test that often. If you get a shorted pump motor, 
pressure switch, the heat tape shorts out or you develop any voltage 
leakage to ground you want power to disconnect, like yesterday.!!!


 A thermocouple??  Sure, but why overcomplicate it?? :-) 

  Corky

I've been buying all my plumbing supplies at Robinson's Hardware in Hudson, MA.
They are a full hardware store and have a large plumbing supply area. What's
more, they have an extremely knowledgeable staff. Ask for Kim or his father.
They went well beyond the call of duty while dealing with me for the last month.
I took on a home plumbing project with no experience and a Time/Life book. They
helped me out a lot! I finished my project last week and everything works.

    I am building a shelf area into a bathroom wall as requested by the
    interior designer side of my DIY team. I took the wallboard off the
    walltoday and discovered there is a vent pipe in my way. If I could
    move it 2-3 inches to the right I would be O.k. 
    
    If I put in a small jog to get around the shelf, will I be hindering
    its effectiveness at all? The pipe is 1-1/2", and exits thru the top 
    plate then through the roof about 5' above where I am working. All
    plumbing/drains are several feet below where I will be making a cut.
    
    Existing				Planned
    ---------                          ---------
    
    Stud	Pipe	Stud	      Stud  Pipe  Stud
    
    	|	 ||    |		|    ||    |
    	|	 ||    |		|    ||    |
    	|	 ||    |		|    \\    |
    	|	 ||    |		|     \\   |
    	|	 ||    |		|      \\  |
    	|	 ||    |		|       || |
    	|	 ||    |		|       || |
    	|	 ||    |		|       || |
    	|	 ||    |		|       || |
    	|	 ||    |		|       || |
    	|	 ||    |		|      //  |
    	|	 ||    |		|     //   |
    	|	 ||    |		|    //    |
   	|	 ||    |		|    ||    |
    	|	 ||    |		|    ||    |
    
    
    Will doing this create any problems?
    
    							Mark
    

    Looks good here.  My kitchen vent has a few turns and
    works fine.
    
    JD

    If the vent is pvc pipe, they make special repair couplings that allow
    the coupling to slide completely over the pipe, so you can put a new
    section in without having to force space. Then just glue and slide it
    into proper position (quickly!)
    
    Eric

    Re:  .21 & vent pipe irregularities.
    
    I have a similar dilemma in my current DIY remodel of
    a bathroom.   When I talked to the plumber about it
    (Grafton, MA) he indicated that any number of turns,
    elbows, connections in the vent pipr was OK  (I needed
    to combine 3 vent pipes and lay these into a converted
    cathedral ceiling).
    
    I'm not sure what the 'limits' of this are, but certainly
    your changes are well within these guidelines.
    
    
    /Russ

The vent pipe exists to break the suction effect caused by water running
down the drain pipes.  If the suction isn't broken, it could pull the
water out of a trap, for example.  Looking at it logically*, I don't think
it matters what kinks are in the vent pipe, so long as any water that
did happen to back up into the vent (if something strange happens) is
able to flow out again.  Not a problem in this case.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

* Yes, I realize that logic doesn't always apply to codes.

    I got home yesterday and discovered that my main water supply line (the
    line running from the main to my house) had frozen.  It seems that the
    recent warm weather in Colorado drove the frost line down, and my water
    line isn't buried deep enough.  
    
    After spending $75 to have the line unfrozen with an arc welder, I was
    told that the only solution is to leave water running the rest of the
    winter and to have the main line reburied deeper come spring (app.
    $1800).
    
    1) The plumber who unfroze my line claimed that I needed a fairly
    significant water flow (around the diameter of my little finger) to
    keep the pipes from re-freezing.  This seems like an awful lot of water
    to waste; does anyone know how much flow is really required to keep a
    shallowly buried pipe from freezing?
    
    2) Other than reburying the line deeper or letting water run all
    winter, can anyone suggest alternative ideas to keep the line from
    freezing in the future?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

    Where is the line freezing?  Not clear since you mentioned that it
    was un-frozen with an arc welder.
    
    Marc H.

You can buy a real nice arc welder for $1800, then DIY.  Then you can start
a side business doing welding to pay for the arc welder.

Stan

    RE: .48
    
    The pipe is freezing somewhere between my water meter (which is next to
    the house) and the water main, which is app. 60' away across the
    street.  Best guess is that it's the section of pipe under the street
    that's freezing.
    
    RE: .49
    
    The arc welder they use to unfreeze the pipe is trailer mounted with
    it's own generator, since a normal house circuit can't pull enough
    juice.  I'd say that it costs considerably *more* than $1800.
    
    My more immediate concern is how much water I need to let run to keep
    the pipe from re-freezing: A steady drip? a finger-sized stream?
    something in-between?
    
    Steve
    ,

    Its hard to give you a value for the size of the water stream.  I've
    talked to people who have had un-heated houses during some of the
    winter who say....." steady drops of water".  I would quess that
    a small stream is needed.
    
    Two questions......how did they use the arc welder? And, why would
    warm weather cause pipes to freeze?  Is it really that the ground
    is getting "wetter" and conducting the cold down more into the ground?
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .51
    
    1) Yes, they really did use an arc welder.  They connected one of
    the cables to the pipe at the water meter, and the other cable to the
    main shutoff valve at the mains end of the pipe.  Running a high
    current through the pipe makes the pipe act as a resistive heating
    unit.
    
    2) I'm not sure *why* the warmer weather causes the pipes to freeze,
    but I've been told by a number of people that the warmer weather drives
    the frost line deeper into the ground.
    
    Steve
    

    Whoa Baby!!!! Using the pipe as a heater!
    
    Marc H.

re .53:

>    Whoa Baby!!!! Using the pipe as a heater!

Back when I was a kid I was always coming up with crazy inventions.  A
tankless electric water heater, a piece of pipe and 2 wires was one of them.

re .52:

A warm period won't "drive the frost line deeper".  A long cold snap will.
Since the ground is somewhat of an insulator, it is possible for a pipe
above the frost line to be unfrozen for a while, and freeze later even
if the weather recently got warmer.  But it would have frozen just as fast
(or faster) if the weather stayed cold.

-Mike

    Are you really responsible for the water main under the street?
    If this is from a water utility I thought they were responsible for the
    mains up to and including the water meter.  I'd tell the water utility
    they have to fix it. In fact it may be possible to get them to
    reimburse you the $75 plumber fee.   Are they going to reimburse you
    for the additional water usage to keep the pipes from freezing?

    If you really are responsible for the water main (or you have a well
    and own the water main outright) it sounds like you have a good case
    proving improper installation. The installer would then be responsible
    for correcting the problem. If you can't collect from the installer as
    a last resort you can try claiming this on your homeowners insurance.

    Hope things work out for you.
    
    -JFK-

    The "folk wisdom" I heard was that the lack of snow "insulating" the ground
    will cause the frost to go deeper.
                                                                    
    Lynn

    RE: last few
    
    According to the utility company, neighbors, previous owner, etc. I own
    and am responsible for the section of pipe that runs from the main to
    my house, even though the meter is at the house end of the run.  The
    house was built in 1939, so it may be a bit hard to go after the
    original installer :-(
    
    All of this discussion about why it froze in warm weather, etc. is
    philosophically interesting, but it still doesn't answer my immediate
    concern:
    
    	How much water do I need to leave running to kepp the pipe from
    	refreezing?    

    After having a 400' underground run of pipe freeze up on me
    once in Eastern Washington, I was told, by the water utility
    representative, to leave a stream
    running that was "about the thickness of a pencil".  That
    was an unusually cold winter (what drove the frost line down
    was -20F temperatures and practically no snow on the ground
    for insulation), with owners of large arc-welders doing
    quite a business.
    
    I'm sure that in some circumstances that would be too much
    water, and in others maybe not enough to keep pipes from
    freezing.
    
    That arc-welder trick was neat; I was just glad I had
    a metal pipe underground.
    
       Jay

     When it gets truly cold around here, I sometimes run a hose into the
tub of my washing machine.  I leave the cold water running a slow trickle.
When I get home, I'll do a load of cold-water laundry (if I have it).  The
water level has never risen to the height of the top of the tub (nowhere 
NEAR that height), but I think the overflow drain in the machine would catch 
it if it did.  If not, the laundry room has a floor drain.

                                    Greg

     I've had this problem also and running water gets costly.
    
    
    I would if cover the area where the pipe is with: 
    
    a board next to the ground, this board will hold the frost on its
    underside,
    
    next over that a bail of hay , old moldy hay is fine. 
    
    This system will draw the frost.
    
    buzz