Conference 7.286::home_work

My 100-year-old colonial still has the original (I believe) boiler.  It's one 
of those enormous cast-iron jobs that holds about 30 gallons of water and was 
originally designed to burn coal.  It had been converted to oil, and more 
recently, to gas.  It works very well, and the steam heat is actually very 
comfortable - it's not nearly as dry as the woodstove we use as a supplement.
But, it is $$$$$!  I'd like to use it more, and I'm wondering about ways to 
improve the efficiency.

First, does anyone know if it's possible to install zone valves on steam 
pipes?  There is currently only one thermostat, and every radiator in the 
house is active.  I'd really like to separate the house into at least two 
zones, and running around turning radiators on and off is no fun!

Second, is steam heat really that grossly inefficient?  Should I consider 
converting to FHW?  The new FHW boilers are so small and look so efficient.  
Are any of them intended to actually BOIL the water (a la steam systems)?
Should I consider keeping a steam system, but replacing the boiler?

Right now, the furnace runs for a full HOUR before the radiators start heating
up from when the thermostat calls for heat (assuming a cold start).  Takes a 
long time to boil 30 gallons of water! I always wonder if it would be better 
to leave the house at 60 degrees during the day, just to keep the boiler hot.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this subject.

-Steve

Re: .0

Our enormous American Standard boiler was actually only 40 years old 
when we replaced it this year.  It used to take a half hour for our 
system to heat the 25 or 30 gallons up to the boiling point.  

There are different types of steam systems.  Ours was the
single-pipe-per-radiator gravity-return type.  The only way you
controlled the heat in different rooms was the venting valve (which
could be set at different rates, so that some radiators could be fully
hot and warming some rooms while others were only beginning to get hot).
There is no potential that I am aware of for zoning such a system. (Yes
one could imagine using some kind of electrically operated valve in
either the feed lines or at each radiator, but working with cast-iron
pipes that are usually pretty large is quite difficult, and I am not
sure of the cost and availability of steam valves for this purpose.)

The primary source of the cost is time your furnace is on before any 
heat begins to get to the house.  The delay is due to the size of your 
tank and the fact that water has to become steam before anything begins 
to happen.  

In FHW systems, the circulators will turn on as soon as heat is needed.
While the water is warming up you are already circulating it to the
house and getting the chill off.  And half the time the furnace does not
have to turn on AT ALL.  There is good enough insulation that what is in
the small tank may be still hot enough to continue heating the house 
without calling for the furnace at all.

So in our experience, it appears that our steam heat was indeed grossly 
inefficient.  And we had to freeze our butts off waiting for the heat.

To answer your other question: in the case of our oil heat, the very
same furnace was available in a steam model.  I assume the same is true
with gas units.  You could save a bundle simply by heating only 3-5
gallons rather than 30.  With gas available you could do the ultimate:
go to a Paloma gas FHW heater.  They look like the Paloma hot water
heaters (see notes elsewhere in this conference) and have *no* tank at
all. There is thus no reservoir to heat and the time to get fully heated
water to your baseboards is the time it takes the circulator to pump the
water there! 

In summary, we are still very happy that we ripped out our steam heat 
and converted to FHW.  We expect to see a much lower oil bill.

Hope this helps,

Alex

     Because there is an hour of overhead every time you turn the 
steam heat on, you want to minimize the number of on-off cycles.  This 
means you have to be willing to live with larger temperature swings.  
I built a gizmo out of relays and large capacitors that was basically 
a flip-flop with the thermostat as a clock that forced the burner to 
run for an extra 45-60 minutes each time the thermostat called for 
heat.  I might be able to find the schematic, if you're interested, or 
even part with it, since my new house has GHW.

    We too have steam heat (have burned wood for past 3 years though).
    When we first moved into the house we installed a hot water heater.
    While having it inspected the plumber said in regard to our heating
    system, that 60 cents out of every dollar was going right up the
    chimney.  I've turned the heat on and gone up to the top of the
    chimney just to see how much heat we were losing, and couldn't 
    believe the warmth that was coming out.          
    
    					Steve

    ? to .1
    
    My house is about 65 years old with steam heat by oil.  The
    heating pipes in the basement are insulated with asbestos.
    (I believe you replied to an earlier mail about asbestos in
    which you talked about having it removed).  I have thought
    about having the system/house converted to FHW and in the
    process having the pipes and their asbestos wrapping removed
    (by an asbestos remover not the heating co).  I am wondering
    what all is involved and approximately what it costs to
    do the conversion - I also have the single pipe, gravity 
    return old style radiators.  It seems like they'd have to take up
    my floors or takedown part of the ceilings to put the piping
    in for a FHW system.  Could you tell me about your conversion
    and how long it took......
    
    Thanks a lot,
    Sue
    

    You've got several degrees of upgrade available.  You could get
    a new steam boiler and keep all the old pipes and radiators.
    That would probably boost your efficiency considerably.  Steam
    heat is not inherently more inefficient, I don't believe, and
    it does have some advantages.  If you have gas, you can get
    a setup that runs the thermostat with a thermopile and be
    *TOTALLY* independent of electricity for your heat.  Steam
    systems work without any pumps, fans, or anything else.  As
    long as gas is coming in the house your heating system will work.
    
    I'm not sure about zones on steam heat, but I don't think you
    can do it in a practical way.  As mentioned,it ought to be possible
    with electrically-operated valves etc. but I'm not sure if such
    a thing is available.  The adjustable vents on the radiators can
    balance things somewhat, and you might see about experimenting
    with those.
    
    FHW is the most flexible type of heating system, probably, but
    it also has more things to go wrong and it would be a more expensive
    conversion.  You *MIGHT* be able to get a new steam boiler hooked
    up to your old radiators, then later on convert it to FHW.  I'm
    not sure if there are unchangable differences between steam and
    FHW boilers or not; I suspect not.  I think you'd just have to change 
    the temperature limit and do the new plumbing for circulating pumps
    etc.  Check with a good boiler installer about this one - I'm not
    sure.  It would let you do the upgrade in stages though, and you
    might discover that steam heat with a new boiler was "good enough".
    

    I opted for converting to a FHW system instead of just replacing
    the ancient steam boiler.  I was quoted approximately $1500 to replace
    the steam boiler with a new one whereas the cost of the complete
    FHW system was $2300 (3.5 yrs. ago).  For a few hundred dollars
    more, a 2nd zone was added to the 2nd floor which previously had
    no heat at all.
    
    As far as installing the baseboards, they did not have to rip out
    any walls, floors, or ceilings.  They simply drilled holes in the
    floors or walls where needed to make the connections.  The holes
    for steam radiators could not be used because of their location.
    
    I suggest that you have several estimates of both options.  I'm
    sure you'll find the additional cost for the FHW worth it.  It not
    only looks much better, but it's more comfortable and probably more
    efficient.
    
    Let us know what happens.  If you'd like some more info from one
    who did it, send me a message.  Good luck.

 Comfort of steam heat: I like mine too!  Especially when it's cold enough
    outside that the radiators stay warm.  It's like having a wood-stove
    in each room; if you're chilly, you can move closer to the radiator.

 General efficiency of steam: Steam is just the medium by which heat is
    transported from the boiler to the places where you want it.
    Perhaps there are some advantages/disadvantages to radiators (all
    of mine are on outside walls; I'm afraid to have an infra-red test
    done for fear of what it would show).  As most of the earlier
    replies have indicated, the place where you make it or break it
    on efficiency is the boiler.  My boiler is about 10 years old and
    holds 10-12 gallons of water (I'm guessing).  I heated my house with
    slightly less than 1000 gallons of oil last winter.  I consider this
    to be reasonable as my house is a 74 year old colonial revival.
    We have 1800 square feet of living space and many big windows.

 Separate zones: A clear disadvantage of steam (assuming your floor plan
    would let you take advantage of multi-zones).  You can tweak the air
    vents to try to balance the rooms: radiators farthest from the boiler
    should be wide open, those close to the boiler should be throttled
    back.  It takes longer for steam to rise so the vents on the second
    floor should be open more than corresponding vents (e. g. directly below
    on the same pipe loop) on the first floor.  BUT (big but) if your house
    is like mine (air flows freely upstairs via wide staircase) you
    will want to close down the vents on the second floor (except the bath
    room) because the second floor will heat by air convection.

 As for shutting down radiators: The valve should be open all the way or
    shut tight; the valve is not designed to regulate the flow of steam.
    The purpose of the valve is to allow you to take a radiator 'off-line'
    (we recently did so while we painted the room it was in).  Before
    you shut down a radiator, wait until it is cold.  This is to allow the
    steam in it to condense and flow back to the boiler.

        I have the same type of steam boiler you describe. I am
      awiting a new boiler from the gas company which will heat
      5 gallons of water as apposed to 40 gallons.  The  boiler
      works fantastic but as you said it is soooooo inneficient
      so I gave the Gas Co. a call. I am sure I could have done
      better price wise but they are great  when  it  comes  to 
      service calls, they are always there. I have 6 good  size
      rooms to heat and the new furnace will run ~$2000.00.   I
      figure that it will pay for itself in about 8 years.
    

Re: .4 and others:

It is certainly the case that simply reducing the quantity of water to 
heat and keeping it better insulated (as with a modern boiler) will 
save you a bundle.  In the case of oil, I was told that we could have 
ordered the steam version of the Weil-McLain furnace and converted 
later.  We were able to use the same burner that we already had in use 
(a relatively efficient modern one).

The reason we went to FHW rather than trying simply a new boiler was
because of a planned addition and the difficulty of extending the
cast-iron pipes for the steam (complicated by the asbestos).  Also, that
adjustment process for each radiator is actually relatively complex, and
balancing it all over again with the new portions would have been difficult.

The hardest part of converting is if you have a second (or worse, a 
third) floor.  If the whole second floor is to be on one zone, they 
need only put a feed and return pipe in the wall somewhere.  Often they 
can run it through a wall into a closet that they can tear apart.  

The figure quoted for 3.5 years ago of 2300 seems low to me. We had a
number of estimates (including one about 3 years ago) and the lowest
came in at $4K.  (Ours is a cape with an attached sunroom that is
heated.)  That price seemed reasonable to us, since several friends we
talked to said that simply replacing their furnace for a similar-sized
house (and high quality furnace) was $2000 to $2500.  We wanted a 
high-quality system, with circulators and all the gating valves you can 
imagine everywhere, automatic air bleed, etc.  The Weil-McLain furnace 
is guaranteed for 20 years.  (Another company, Burnham has a similar 
guarantee and appears to be very good.)

In general the plumbers do not have to fiddle with your floors or
ceilings to do the conversion.  However, you are left with 2" holes in
your floors where the radiator pipes were, so you eventually have to do
something to patch those holes.   (By the way, I recommend wherever
possible, removing the wooden baseboards where the plumbers are going to
mount radiators.  Since the baseboard radiators are higher than
baseboards, simply having them mount the radiator on the baseboard is
not sufficient.  You would have to do something to build up the wooden
baseboard so that dust would not collect behind the radiator.  It also
looks bad.  Where I could not remove wooden baseboard (because it 
extended below the hardwood floors), I had to extend the wooden 
baseboard by about 2-3" and then put molding on top, something like this:

                +================================+ 
     ===========++------------------------------++=========== 
     ------------+RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR+------------ 
                  RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR               
                  RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR                      
     --------------------------------------------------------

where the portion marked with Rs is where the radiator is, and the rest 
is the baseboard built up around it.  Molding is shown as the line of ='s.)

Asbestos removal is expen$sive.  As mentioned in another note, it cost
$1400 plus extra couple of hundred to remove asbestos from the old
boiler. 

The conversion was totally done in a week.  Asbestos removal took two
days. Removal of all pipes and the old boiler and installation of all of
the new piping and radiators took three days. 

Hope this helps,

Alex

    Honest, .9, that was the cost.  It did seem too good to be true,
    but then I saw how easy the installation was and the cost of the
    boiler (Teledyne-Laars mini-therm, $550).  What also helped, I'm
    sure, was that the contractor needed the work.  When I was pricing
    boilers at a plumbing supply store, he overheard me asking questions
    and jumped at the opportunity.  His work was top quality, too. 
    Also, he only had to install baseboard in 5 rooms plus the hallway.
    I doubt he lost money on the deal.

    RE: .10
    
    Sorry, I wasn't questioning whether you spent that amount, just whether
    your circumstance would apply to the rest of us.  Sounds like yours was
    a one story house, right?
    
    Alex 
    

    re: .11   
    
    Actually, my home is a 2 story, old colonial.  The contractor who
    did the conversion only did the 1st floor, but he set-up the boiler
    for a 2nd zone, including the 2nd circulator.  I had him do this
    because I was short on cash and I knew eventually it'll get done.
    
    Completing the 2nd floor was another experience, as my friends who
    read these notes know.  I won't get into it, but I learned 2 very
    valuable lessons:  1. Do not have friends or neighbors do any major
    work to your house without accepting any type of compensation and
    without a contract of some sort.  2. Make sure that the boiler is
    switched OFF when draining the system to do any type of work to
    the system.  Don't assume that the other guy already did it like
    he was supposed to!

Same thing in my Vicky: steam radiators fired by coal, then oil,
then gas. The house inspector commented that the kindest thing he
could say about Big Bertha in the basement was that she "was
probably new when they installed her".  I don't think multiple
thermostats are feasible; individual radiators have air-vents for
adjusting the rate at which steam arrives and valves for on-off
control.  Praises for the thermopile (sometimes called a
powerpile) we have.  Heat without electricity! 

Now, about conversion: I agree with the suggestion for several
estimates of both options (total conversion, partial conversion).

We are adding to our house right now and discussed various
heating options with our gen contractor and his various plumbing
and heating subs during 1986.  Big Bertha works just fine, so we
just wanted to extend the piping and install more radiators.
However, since the gen contractor does more new construction than
remodeling, his subs are all more familiar with new techniques
than with old methods.  So, the suggestions ranged from "ignore
everything and add electric baseboards" via "ignore the old and
add a second furnace and FHW baseboards" to "rip it all out and
start over again with FHW baseboards". 

Estimates ranged from $3,000 to $5,000, not counting the cost of
re-wiring the ENTIRE house when the baseboard covered all the
existing outlets (except the three in the floor) and we would
have to relocate the outlets, but such requires that each outlet
be brought completely to code, which now requires (have you
heard?) grounded service, and we only had ungrounded service. 
We were not amused. 

So, we asked the plumbing brother of a friend to come discuss
STEAM with us.  He remembers Maynard, when there were trolleys, I
think.  He complimented Big Bertha and her durability, and
respected the steam radiator service.  He also suggested the
"second furnace and FHW baseboard" route, for costs.  After
hearing our affection for the steam, he prepared two price
quotations.  One price included feet of steam pipe at $20 per
foot plus steam baseboard or radiators plus oodles of labor.  The
other price included a second FHW furnace, feet of copper tubing
at $0.20 per foot plus two zones of baseboard heaters and kick
heater under the kitchen sink and some amount of labor.  One was
$3500, the other was $3700; don't remember which was which. 

We chose a second, svelte!, furnace.  She has been installed and
soon we will have heat in the addition.  Thus, FHW baseboards in
kitchen and bedroom, elec baseboard in master bath, and steam
"tell you when they're working" radiators elsewhere. 

    
    Thanks to all for your input!  I appreciate hearing everyone's opinion.
    Right now I'm leaning towards just replacing the boiler.  This past
    weekend I was in a 150-year-old house where the owner had done just
    that.  They had the same radiators and single-pipe system that I
    have, and down in the basement there was a tiny little boiler no
    bigger than a BA123 (a MicroVAX box)!  The best part of the conversion,
    according to the owner, was how quickly the heat comes up now.
    
    Hopefully, I'll be able to use most of the existing steam plumbing
    near the furnace, and a minimum of asbestos will have to be removed.
    Of course, the whole boiler is plastered with the stuff!
    
    Thanks again,
    -Steve
    

    You have to be careful when getting a radiator.  The threaded openings
    come in all different sizes.  I had to replace a radiator recently
    and had to have the steam pipe valve replaced with one that fit
    the new radiator.
    
    chris d

    
                    < HOW ABOUT SOME FREEBIES AT THE DUMP >
    I've never had steam heat (radiators) but I do see a lot of old
    radiators when I drop off scrap metal at the dump. Sounds crazy
    but the radiators looked in great shape to me. Could've used some
    paint to pretty them up though.  Maybe when people
    renovate heating systems to more modern ones they throw out
    perfectly good radiators ! I saw at least three of these guys at
    the Nashua N.H. sanitary landfill scrap metal pile last saturday
    when I dumped off some old bicycle carcasses.
    
    might be worth a try.
    
    gerry

    
    
    I have steam heat in my house and have an apartment on the second
    floor. I would like to put in two zones, one zone for each unit.
    Is this possible to do for steam heat?
    
    wayne










                                   

    I have the same situation. I recently had a heating company come
    in to evaluate my steam system. As you probably know the steam take
    longer to reach the second floor therefore that apt is cooler. The
    guy I talked to said that short of installing a second boiler, you
    could not zone steam. He also suggested increasing the pressure my
    boiler puts out and cleaning or replacing the valves at the end
    of the radiator. I guess they tend to clog and don't let the proper
    amount of air out.

    See note 588 and its replies for more info on steam heat.

    The air vents on the radiators and, similarly, the 'quick-vents' in
    the steam lines must be in good working order for the system to work
    correctly.  My uncle, the heating man, told me to expect to replace
    the radiator vents every 3 years or so.  I bought my house in the
    summer of 1985.  When I fired up the boiler that fall, I discovered
    many of the vents blowing steam!  I went out and bought all new vents.
    I'm using Vari-Vents now, they can be adjusted quickly by hand which
    is good while you are trying to balance your system.  The downside
    is that my two year-old son can also adjust them quickly by hand.

    Next time around I'm going to buy Dole vents.  I'll post the comparisons
    here in about 4-5 years ( ;^)

    Your...PAL 

    I recently saw these gizmo's attached to steam radiators that looked
    like they gave automatic control to each steam radiator.  It was
    in an office building so there wasn,t anyone to ask about it.
    Following is a description: This device was attached to the  output
    of the radiator where the vent normally goes.  First into the hole
    was a miniature Taco "Vacuum breaker" ,then some sort of special
    "T" . On top of the "T" was what seemed to be a normal nonadjustable
    vent and on the other leg of the "T" was some kind of valve which
    had connected to it, a long flexible metal tube and on the other
    end of the tube was a thermostat which hung on the wall.
    
    My best guess at operation would be:  The "thermostat" somehow adjusted
    the pressure in the tube which would regulate how much steam pressure
    it took to open the valve and thereby regulate how quickly the
    radiator would heat up. It would seem to work the same way as any
    thermostat.  If the stat calls for heat the pressure in the tube
    would be reduced thereby allowing the valve to open and allow the
    the vent to "vent" and the radiator would heat up.
    
    I have no idea what the vacuum breaker is for and please don't quarell
    with my idea as to how it works, cause I am only guessing.  The
    system looks kind of gludgey and expensive, but if you want individual
    control bad enough there it is.
    

    I have steam heat in my house and have been having a difficult time
    ballancing my system. the problem: upstair unbearably hot down stairs
    cool. would some one please explain the proper meathod for balancing
    a steam heat system.
    
    thanks for the help
    Mike
    

General notes:

  o The air vents control the rate at which the radiators FILL with steam.
    If your boiler fires in SHORT cycles, this can have a large effect
    on the amount of heat delivered to each room; if your boiler fires
    in LONG cycles, this effect is diminished.

  o This is not to imply that you can tweak your boiler cycle-time; merely
    to put the vent adjustment in perspective.  The boiler cycle time will
    be a function of control hardware (thermostat and the control box on
    the boiler), thermostat placement, and, of course, outside temperature.

  o Your thermostat gets its information from one location, only.

  o Hot air rises readily.

  o Steam doesn't!  It takes longer for steam to reach the second floor
    than it does to reach the first floor.  In a first course in
    Thermodynamics, one is taught about Enthalpy, the total energy in steam
    (or whatever fluid).  One of the components of Enthalpy is heat, another
    is potential energy (height).  Some heat has to be 'converted' into
    height in order to deliver the remaining heat to the second floor.

My experience:

  o I have a two story house, the same square footage up and down.  I have
    six radiators on the first floor but only three on the second floor.
    There used to be an additional radiator on the second floor but it
    was removed by a previous owner; by leaving the door to that room
    (my sons' bedroom) ajar, the room stays comfortable.  The second floor
    is ALWAYS warmer than the first floor.

  o We have two stairways.  If I leave the doors open at the top and bottom
    of the back stairs, a convection loop distributes the heat better.
    I generally close those doors at night because I'm afraid that in the
    event of a fire, the same convection loop would cause the fire to spread
    rapidly.  Besides, I have a set-back thermostat and I want to concentrate
    the heat upstairs at night.

  o On the subject of set-back thermostats.  Steam systems have a LOT of
    inertia, you can't move the thermostat around on a whim like you can
    with, say, forced hot air.  For example, if you feel chilly and bump
    the 'stat up 4 degrees, the boiler will run for a long time making the
    house 6-10 degrees warmer.  Then it will be a loooong time before the
    boiler fires again because the thermostat will have to cool 3-7 degrees
    before it calls for heat.  That means the radiators will get cold and
    the next boiler cycle will be longer than normal (though not as long
    as the initial cycle after re-adjustment).  So, if you are going to
    use a set-back, don't drop down too many degrees; I use a 7-8 degree
    set-back.  If I were shopping for a new thermostat, I would look for
    one that would let me 'step-up' to the higher temperature.

  o Two of my upstairs radiators are on direct vertical risers.  The other
    one, in the bathroom, is fed from the same riser as the 'middle'
    bedroom (warmest room in the house).  It is, therefore, furthest,
    in a thermodynamic sense, from the boiler.  I have the vent on it
    open full.  The vent on the other two upstairs radiators are 1/4 open.
    The radiators downstairs have their vents set about 1/2 open.

  o If you can't get your upstairs 'cool' enough, try taking some radiators
    off line.  If you have a radiator in an upstairs hall, it is a likely
    candidate.  Any bedroom where you don't mind leaving the door open
    is another likely candidate.  Wait until the radiator is COLD before
    shutting it down; you don't want to trap water in it.

Your...PAL

re: .5

>  o Steam doesn't!  It takes longer for steam to reach the second floor
>    than it does to reach the first floor.  In a first course in
>    Thermodynamics, one is taught about Enthalpy, the total energy in steam
>    (or whatever fluid).  One of the components of Enthalpy is heat, another
>    is potential energy (height).  Some heat has to be 'converted' into
>    height in order to deliver the remaining heat to the second floor.

As I recall, the concept is Entropy.


Just nit-picking, :-)
Mark

    

I vote for calling it Enthalpy.  So what's wrong with Physics by Consensus?

The house I had a few years ago had a one-pipe steamer with cast iron
radiators.

Somehow, I've felt ever since that a Real Heating System is either steam or
wood-fire.  None of these wimpy warm water prissy-poo baseboards, probably
painted to match the decor.  And none of these fanned warm air toys with their
yuppy central humidifiers and 39 zones in every bath room.  A Heating
System uses a transfer medium at a temperature above 250 deg F, by gosh!
Or it radiates high-intensity infrared from 800 lbs of red cast iron.

Anyhow, to say something marginally useful in this note, the house with the
steam system had settled, and one of the steam runs sloped downward from the
boiler.  This allowed water to form at the far end where the pipe turned up
to rise to the second floor.  Fluid dynamicists among our readers understand
what would happen when the boiler sent some steam down the pipe, and the
steam hit the water.  I think it was A-sharp at 140 db.  Cast iron is
musical.

I believe the the term enthalpy is correct, referring to total energy.  Entropy 
refers to the fact that whenever something happens, energy is lost.  Two 
totally different concepts.

Paul

  RE: .6	"You can pick your nits
		 You can pick your friends, but
		 You can't pick your friends' nits"

	Look it up!  I'll argue with you about procedures, aesthetics,
    opinions, quality versus price, etc.  There's no reason to debate
    word definitions here.

  RE: .7         -< Heat, Sound, and Fury.  Yay Steam! >-

	Glad to have another boiler-tender on board!

    From your description, it sounds like the settling made one of your
    RETURNS slope UP TO the boiler.  In a one-pipe system, the highest
    point in the loop is where the steam pipe comes out of the boiler.
    The loop runs down-hill around the basement back to the boiler where
    it returns to the bottom of the boiler.  All radiators are fed from
    risers coming out of the loop(s).  Steam occupies most of the pipe,
    traveling to the radiators.  Condensate flows downhill, along the
    bottom of the pipe, on its way back to the boiler.  Thus, if your
    return (actually, any section of the loop) ran up-hill, a pool would
    form in it.  Now the music begins....steam pressure builds up behind
    the pool (remember, it's probably only a slight angle) and pushes
    the condensate along...until the pressure is relieved!  Then the
    'wave' surges back to the low point and your orchestra reaches a
    crescendo.  And you always get an encore!

    Can anyone explain why some of the steam radiators in my house keep
    filling up with water?
    
    
    
    Every now and then, water starts to come out of the air valves on
    a couple of the radiators in my house.  On one of them, I even went
    and replaced the air valve with no success.  I've taken the radiators
    off and 'drained' them by tilting them back and forth until no more
    water would come out, but then in a couple of months, they've got
    water in them again.  (I can tell by the sound that they make when
    the heat is on.  Until LOTS of steam comes into the radiator,  a
    bubbleing sound is always going on)
    
    
    
    thanks
    -bill

	Bill, I believe your problem with the radiators is because the
water is not draining out. As steam comes thru the line, it turns to
water, therefore the radiator and ALL feed lines should be angled
back towards the boiler. This way the water will flow back to the
boiler and the new steam can get thru to release heat.
	I have a steam boiler that's 5 years old. One of the high
effieciency gas ones. After the installation, I experienced this same
type of radiator problems. An old plumber who was fully experienced
told me that you should have 1/4 inch pitch per foot. This includes
both radiators and feed lines. So I raised the opposite end of the
radiator (away from the feed lines) by putting a metal block under
the radiator legs. Now the water drains by natural gravity and no
more banging or clanking. Good luck. I hope this helps.



< Note 855.0 by MILT::JACKSON "So many Arbys, so little time" >
                      -< water in steam radiators, why? >-

    Can anyone explain why some of the steam radiators in my house keep
    filling up with water?
    
    
    
    Every now and then, water starts to come out of the air valves on
    a couple of the radiators in my house.  On one of them, I even went
    and replaced the air valve with no success.  I've taken the radiators
    off and 'drained' them by tilting them back and forth until no more
    water would come out, but then in a couple of months, they've got
    water in them again.  (I can tell by the sound that they make when
    the heat is on.  Until LOTS of steam comes into the radiator,  a
    bubbleing sound is always going on)
    
    
    
    thanks
    -bill

    
    
    I agree with RE .1  It could also be the drains are plugged. This
    kept happening at my moms old house. She lived in an area with very
    hard water. And about every year for about 5 years I had to open
    the drains up. After 5 years of this I replaced the drain pipes
    with a larger pipe. After I did that I only had to open the drains
    up every 18 months.
    
    Mike

    RE: .2
    
    Drains?????
    
    
    My radiators only have 1 pipe (as do most steam systems that I know
    of) which feeds the steam into to radiators. 
    
    
    
    I'll try tilting the radiators when I get home tonight.  Almost
    all of the radiators in the house have been removed in the last
    6 months because we've been painting the rooms, and wanted to do
    a 'good job' and paint behind them (which hadn't been done in the
    last couple of paintings)
    
    
    -bill

    I'm not terribly familiar with steam systems; I can't agree with
    or dispute the possible drain problem.  However, the system I
    examined also had a single pipe *and* the same problem with water
    coming out every now and then.  In examining the system, I discovered
    a shutoff valve on the supply line.  The owner told me that he would
    occasionally open the valve to refill the water level.  I replaced
    the valve and the problem stopped.
    
    This was in an older home.  I suspect newer systems use an automatic
    feed, but they could still "leak," eventually overfill, and thus
    cause water to leak.
    
    valve.  

	The valve .4 mentions sounds like the valve in the line that
	supplies water to the boiler -- not related to radiator
	water.

	I found I had to shim the radiators to get them to pitch
	back.  This can become interesting because the iron pipes
	don't like to bend: if you raise one side of the radiator,
	the whole radiator rises, lifting its pipe up, all 900 lbs
	from the second floor down to the basement.  The radiator
	maintains the pitch it likes.  Sometimes fittings can be
	rotated a teensy so the radiator will slope properly.
	This introduces opportunity to crack the iron fittings or
	snap them off.  I left one radiator with the "far end" shimmed
	up and the "near end", or pipe end, floating 1/2" in the air.
	I figured it would find a convenient equilibrium sometime,
	but I sold the house before it did.

	Try tilting your house.

	Regards, Robert.

    I'm not a plumber, but I've seen some 2-pipe steam systems where
    the drain water goes back to the boiler via a smaller pipe, sometimes
    via a more direct route. I believe its called a Hartford loop; my
    previous house had such a system.  Hence the "drain" previously
    referred to.

    I had the same problem Bill.  I just made a couple of wedges and
    tapped them in place (end opposite supply line) under each leg,
    resulting in the tilt necessary for proper draining.
    
    					Steve
    
    P.S. - Don't expect to tilt radiator more than 1/2".

    Seems to me that if your radiator is tilted 'backward', it will only fill
    to the level of the feed/return pipe.  I would get suspicious about
    the vent valve.  This valve lets air out when the steam is rising
    and then lets air IN when the radiator cools and the steam condenses.
    If it fails to let air in, you will have a vacuum in the radiator
    holding the water in.

    The next time your radiator need to be drained, try removing the valve.
    If the radiator drains, the valve needs replacing.  As I've mentioned
    at least twice in this file, these vent valves have a relatively short
    lifespan (3-5 years I've been told).

    PL

    RE: .8
    
    That's what I thought, so I bought a couple.  The problem (seemed)
    to get WORSE!
    
    
    Last night, I cut a whole bunch of pieces of oak and tilted all
    of the radiators so they are slightly off level.  We'll see what
    happens.
    
    
    -bill

    The fill valve for the boiler will most definitely flood all your
    radiators with water if it is leaking slightly.  I have had this
    happen while we were away for an extended period in the summer.
    The fill valve was letting a little water in all the time and it
    not only filled the radiators but dripped out of the steam vents.
    
    In the winter time some of the excess water may be boiling of as
    steam but when the thermostat is shut off it will fill up.  Check
    the water level in the glass for the boiler.  If you can't see the
    line it may be too full.
    

    nope, that's not it.
    
    
    The problem is still there.  I had water dripping out of the radiator
    in my bedroom on Sunday morning (VERY early sunday morning I might
    add)
    
    
    
    All the radiators are sloped toward the steam pipe, and this radiator
    has a brand new air valve.
    
    
    any more suggestions?
    
    -bill

    I have 9 old steam radediers (sp?) that need sand blasting and painting
    and I am having difficulites finding someone to do this.  Is there
    someone in the manard area that does this?
    
    Help or suggestions appreciated.
    
    Charla

    Try Leo Cavilier (sp?) on Weatherbee St. in Acton (or maybe Concord).
    It's the little road between rt 2 and rt 2A/119, just west of the
    Concord prison rotary.  It's a welding shop.  Drive along Weatherbee
    St. and you can't miss it - it's the place with the mounds of scrap
    steel all over the place.  I know he's got a sandblaster; whether
    he'd do a job like you're talking about I don't know, but I don't
    see why not.

    If you do get the radiators sand blasted, be careful around the
    seams where the sections are pressed together.  All you want to
    do is remove the old layers of paint; you do not want to cause
    a leak between the sections.
    
    Also, after getting them blasted, wipe them down with a solution
    called Metal-Prep (mild acid) to prevent them from beginning to
    rust.
    
    
    Mark

I believe that the DEQE shut down Leo's sand-blasting operation about a year 
ago.  You might try using a paint remover and a wire brush...

    Leo has recently died. The business is continuing.

You're correct about Leo, his son runs it now.  But -- my partner and I went 
to ask them to sand-blast our race-car trailer, and they told us that they had 
been shut down by the DEQE.  This was last summer.  My partner has done quite 
a bit of business with them in the past, so I believe they'd tell him the 
truth.  They still do welding, and sell metals and whatnot -- it's just the 
sandblasting that's gone.

I have a small sand-blasting unit that I drive off a 4HP compressor -- it 
works, but would be SLOW going for a big job.  You could borrow it if you have 
a compressor to drive it.


			Andy

    I just called B-C Industries in Worcester, having just tried to
    sandblast a radiator with my handy-dandy Sears sandblaster and
    given it up as more aggravation than I really wanted.
    B-C industries will sandblast radiators for $11/running foot.
    They will prime them for $6/running foot.  I assume this might
    vary a little if you had a very short radiator or a very tall one.
    I plan to give them a try, and will give a report of the results.
    
    They are at 152 Webster St and are open 7am-4:30pm M-F.  Tel. no.
    is 753-5336.
    

    I picked up the radiators this morning.  Total cost for sandblasting
    and priming one very small radiator and one medium-sized one: $35.
    They plugged the holes where the pipes screw in and covered the
    bleeder valves with tape before they sandblasted.  They missed a
    couple of tiny spots of old paint in a couple of crevices, but 
    otherwise very good, prompt work.  I also found them to be nice 
    people to deal with.
    The easiest way to get there is to take 290 south to the Hope St.
    (Route 12 North) exit.  Get off at the exit, turn right at the
    bottom of the ramp, and turn right after about 1/2 mile (?) at a
    big open "T" intersection, onto Webster St.  B-C is about 1/2 mile
    (?) up on the left, 152 Webster St.  (Distance estimates may be 
    wildly inaccurate.)  Their phone no. is 753-5336.
        
    n.b. I don't think there's an exit off 290 at that point if you're 
    coming north on 290 from Auburn.
    

    Got the radidiers done but now I need to move the pipes.
    tried to use a pipe wrinch on it and got no were.  
    
    My husband would like to heat it up with a torch.  Will this damange
    anything?

It won't damage the steam pipes, but watch out for the surrounding
woodwork. I usually find it prudent to slip in a piece of aluminum
sheet on the other side if I'm using a torch in close quarters -
prevents all those embarrassing scorch marks and calls to the fire
department.

Heat is one option. Also consider liquid wrench and some gentle banging
to work the joint loose. When push comes to shove, however your best
bet might be to get a bigger pipe wrench. I've been known to bang on the
wrench handle with a big hammer when nothing else works.

    liquid wrench does not work.  will try the aluminum for the heat.
    also have a fire extinguisher handy.

    If the problem joint is a cast elbow you can carefully smash (sounds
    like a contradiction in terms) the elbow without damaging the pipe.
    I saw this done in a friends house by an old time plumber who was
    called in after we had tried unsuccessfully to unscrew the joints.
    
    -Stan

    Watch out you don't melt the aluminum with the torch; better to
    use a piece of thin steel sheet (maybe a 1/2-gallon juice can, 
    cut in half?)  
    The first thing to try is probably a larger wrench.

    No matter what you do, you may have a hard time.  I recently tried
    to unscrew some parts using a 2' pipe wrench; no luck.  So I went
    and got a 3' piece of 1.5" diameter pipe, slipped that on the wrench,
    and jumped up and down on that a few times; no better luck.  I
    finally decided I didn't really need to undo those joints after
    all.
    Working with old iron pipe can be a colossal pain.  If you are
    determined to take out the old pipes, be prepared to get pretty
    violent, and be prepared to go out and buy new pipe to replace
    the old stuff; you may not need to, but be aware that it's a definite
    possibility.

That old pipe can really be a *b!tch!*  My father's a 'plumber'...  Don't afraid
to use a bigger wrench.  If that doesn't work, get a *BIGGER* wrench, or slide a
long pipe on the wrench handle.  Don't give up on it untill you have three
people on a 6 foot pipe on a 3 foot wrench! 

Remember, as one of the Greeks (maybe Archimedes) said, 'Given a long enough
lever, you can move mountains'.

Jim.

    .13:
    
    "Give me a place to stand, and I will move the world."
    
    					-- Archimedes
    

    Re .-1
    
    You left out the part about the fulcrum and the lever long enough.
    
    Dave
    

    re .6,.7  (B-C Industries)
    
    I just picked up two radiators I had blasted / primed. Thanks for
    the recommendation; they look great.
    
    About the price. The way they measure the number of feet is by
    the longest dimension (height or length). Therefore, if you bring
    in a radiator which is almost square, you get the best value for
    your money. 
    
   

    
    	Since the winter is rapidly approaching I figure it is time
    to start thinking about getting the heat turned on in my house.
    
    	When I went throught the home inspection the guy turned the
    system (Steam with gas and old radiators with the valves on the
    side) and it all started up except for two radiators in the top
    front.  He told me to call Comgas and they could fix it.  Comgas
    wants $40.00/hour.  Could it just be that the valves need replacing
    and if so can I buy these at Somerville lumber??  Also should I
    have the system serviced, or should I just fire it up (like the
    guy at Comgas said I should).
    
    	As a second question I was wondering if there is a fairly low
    cost replacement baseboard type radiator that I could replace the
    old ones with?
    

>    Could it just be that the valves need replacing
>    and if so can I buy these at Somerville lumber??  

Could be that the radiators are just shut off.  Check for shut-off valves
along all accessible pipes. 

Could be that the steam valves just need cleaning, by boiling in vinegar or
some such. 

Could be they need to be replaced, available at well-stocked hardware 
stores, not sure about S'ville.  They're not especially cheap.

Could be that something more serious is wrong, in the pipes or the radiators. 
This is the only possibility that would require help from professionals; 
you can handle the others yourself, with help from this conference.

All of these possibilities are discussed elsewhere in this conference; scan
the appropriate reply to topic 1111 for topics with interesting-looking titles. 

If it turns out that you need to replace any steam radiators, I have some,
free for the hauling. 

>    	I was wondering if there is a fairly low
>    cost replacement baseboard type radiator that I could replace the
>    old ones with?
    
Replacement baseboard steam radiators are available, but not at "fairly low
cost".  The baseboards themselves aren't cheap, but the labor to hook 'em 
up is murder.  Because of the high pressure of steam, the pipes are made of 
heavy iron, and few plumbers have the equipment or the skill to work with 
them these days.

    I have rebuilt some of the old water radiators by taking apart the
    sections and replacing a bad (frozen/broken) section.  The problem
    with steam is over the years everything pretty much "welds" itself
    together and you can't get anything apart.
    
    For relatively inexpensive parts and supplies try your local wrecking
    company.  One of the things they save when they wreck a building
    is the radiators (there is an apartment in Newport with some radiators
    and heavy duty doors from Mass General in it!).  I used to use Duanes 
    Wrecking in Quincy many years ago, I think they are gone though.
    For those of you that need original mantles for your Victorian fireplace
    or whatever this is a trip worth taking.  I used to spend hours
    rooting around.
  
    Stan

    
    	You can get the Valves Real cheap @ spags.. they have two types,
    both are priced right. you may even have water accumulated in the
    bottom blocking the steam.
    
    
    paul

    First check the shutoff valves.  Second swap the valves from two
    known "good" radiators, with the two that don't work, and see what
    happens.
    	
    					Steve

Note 855 is a discussion of troubleshooting steam radiators.

Note 588 contains descriptions of how various steam systems work, and some 
thoughts on the economics of repairing/expanding existing steam systems vs. 
replacing them.

Please, use the index in note 1111.  Find out if your question or your 
pearl of advice is already someplace in this conference; if not, add it to
the existing structure if you can find an appropriate spot.  Balance this 
slight inconvenience against the time and convenience of the hundreds of 
people that use this conference as a reference tool.

Yours for a more usable HOME_WORK,

    		DCL

    I've just finished putting a new floor in my bathroom and now the
    steam radiator won't connect to the pipe.  The difference in height
    is only about 3/8 to 1/2" but the radiator fits between the bathtub
    and the steam pipe and there isn't any horizontal feed line.  The
    radiator connects directly to the valve.  I've got about 4" room
    between the radiator and the tub.  Do they make a steam pipe flexible
    enough to put a -\_ bend in?  Or should I try to unthread the valve
    3/8"?  I thought of cutting through the linoleum and the plywood
    underlayment with a hole saw, but my wife didn't think that would
    look very nice.  Any ideas?
    

    I've expereince the same problem ... This worked well for my single
    stand pipe (both supply and drain) radiator.
    
    If you're only dealing with 3/8", place the radiator next to the
    stand pipe in a postion ready to attach. Be sure to goop on lots
    of pipe compound on the male threads and shim (or manually raise)
    the far end of the radiator to bring the radiator connector to the
    level of the stand pipe threads. Slowly screw the radiator connector
    to the stand pipe. This may be done for several revoltions even
    though the stand pipe and the connector are not at the same angle,
    since the female coupling "floats" .After three revolutions or so,
    you'll have the threads properly mated. Continue to tighten until
    you're 2/3 from a complete coupling . Remove the shims and you'll be
    using the weight of the radiator to lift the stand pipe 3/8" so that
    the pipe with  be inline with the radiator connector. Continue to
    fully couple.
    
    You want the radiator to lean slightly towards the stand pipe for
    proper drainage and to reduce hammering. Therfore , you may want
    to leave some of the shim under the far end.
    
    A plumber once told me that no extension is permitted between a
    steam stand pipe and the radiator ...

    It worked, except that we had to open up the pipe chase box in the
    room below to free up where the pipe was binding.  As for the pipe
    extensions not being allowed, I have some in my house, but then
    they were put in shortly after the discovery of steam.
    
    

    
    We own an old colonail converted to a two family, one up and one
    down.  
    
    We are down and have forced hot water, gas heat.  Our tenant is
    up and has the original steam system, oil that we just had converted
    to gas.
    
    We have a pipe in each room which goes up to her radiators.  Every
    time her heat comes up, the pipe in our bedroom goes "bink, bink,
    bang, bink, bang, BANG, bink".
    
    No other pipe through our unit makes any sound at all.  It is not
    the really loud noise like a crowbar hitting metal, but it is enough
    to wake us up.
    
    Why does this noise occur?  Why in only one pipe?  and what can
    we do to stop it? 
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Karen

                Typically this is caused by water trapped in the
        radiator that the pipe feeds. What you are hearing is the
        bubbles of steam blowing past that water.
                
                The solution is to set the radiator up so that it drains
        properly. If it is a single pipe system (only one pipe goes to
        the radiator) then the radiator should be tilted so that the end
        at the pipe is lower than the other end. (This frequently is
        caused by the settling of the house). If it is a two pipe
        system, then you need to figure out which one is the return and
        tilt the radiator so that the water will flow out of that end of
        the radiator. (Typicaly the outlet pipe is the one that gets hot
        second.)
                
                There also could be excess air/water in the system that
        needs bleeding. The air valve in the radiator usually allows for
        this (by removal if nothing else). These valves also don't last
        forever and do need periodic replacement depending on the
        quality that was installed last.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    	I am new to steam heat and have a basic question. Are the
    	air valves on the radiators supposed to whistle like a 
    	tea kettle when the heat is on ? It is so loud sometimes
    	that it will wake us up in the middle of the night and the
    	dog will hide under the bed. Do they make a higher quality
    	valve that is somewhat silent, or is this something you have
    	to live with.
    
    	Thanks in advance
    
    	Tim
    

The steam heat is actually in our tenant's apt., but I grew up with it 
and I never remenber our radiators making any noise.  

I don't know any of this for sure, but I would think that if the steam 
is escaping like that it would either mean that the valves are old and 
worn out, or the pressure is so great that it is blasting the steam 
out through the valves.

Either way, if that much steam is escaping, then the water in the 
boiler will evaporate that much faster.  This means that you will have 
to check it more often to make sure that your boiler doesn't run dry 
and crack. (Do you know how to do this?).

RE: .2

	A steam pressure relief valve in proper working order should go
	"sssssssst...clunk" every once in a while.

	The valve has a plug on the incoming steam line that is held closed
	by a spring. When enough pressure builds up to overcome the spring's
	force, steam escapes. When the pressure subsides, the spring closes
	the valve. It sounds like your valves need replacing (nothing
	personal :-).

	Like the previous note says, you will need to fill your boiler more
	often. Leaky valves also reduce the efficiency of the system which
	translates into lost $$$.

Larry

    
    	So the valves are supposed to operate like a pressure relief
    	valve? So if I take them off and blow into them and air travels
    	right through at any pressure, this would probably mean that
    	the valve needs to be replaced? The valves that don't whistle
    	make the Psssssst, Klunk noise, but the other valves sit there
    	and whistle as soon as pressure starts to build in the system.
    	How much do new valves cost and where can you get them in
    	southern N.H. ?
    
    	Thanks in advance
    
    	Tim
    

    Re: .2 etc.
    
    My understanding of these valves is that they should not let out
    STEAM, their function is to vent the air in the radiator so
    the steam can come into it.  I believe they contain bimetallic
    strips and are normally open; when the the steam gets to the radiator
    and heats up the bimetallic strip, it closes the valve and stops
    the steam from escaping.  
    Normally they don't whistle loudly, although I suppose they could
    if the steam came up so fast it pushed out the air very rapidly.
    If they are venting only air, and close when the steam gets into
    the radiator, I guess you'll have to live with the whistle; if they're
    venting steam, you should probably replace the valves.
    I'd agree with .4 about the "normal" sound of them: "psssst..clunk!"

    My understanding is, they are NOT supposed to act like pressure
    relief valves.  But I may be totally wrong.  

We replaced all of the valves in our tanant's apt to get rid of the 
metal banging sound.  All of the old valves were rusted on/shut.  Air 
began escaping immediately, and then stopped.  We have heard no 
banging since (yesterday).

I know my husband used two different kind of valves, one kind in the 
radiator directly over the furnace, and a different kind on all of the 
rest.  I really don't know why, but I would assume it had something to 
do with more pressure right over the boiler.

    re: .8
    Not more pressure, but closer to the source of heat.  It takes time
    for the steam to get to more distant radiators.  If all the valves
    were the same, the steam would get to the close radiators almost
    immediately and the more distant radiators would still be cold.
    The idea is to put valves with large openings on the distant radiators
    so they can vent easily, and valves with smaller openings on the
    close radiators so the steam will enter them more slowly, so that
    (hopefully) all the radiators warm up more or less at the same time.

    I've only lived with steam heat for a few weeks but this is how
    the superintendent explained it to me....
    
    The radiator has a shut-off valve at the pipe connection and a
    air valve at the other end.
    
    The air valve should make the pssssssssst-clunk noise.  If it keeps
    hissing it needs to be replaced.  The banging noise from the pipes
    is due to problems with the shut-off valve.  If it is left partially
    open you get the banging noises.  If you can't totally shut it or
    totally open it then the valve needs to be repacked.  Two years
    ago they fixed all the shut-off valves and all the banging noises
    went away.
    

    Are the vent valves found only on one-pipe steam systems? I have
    what I believe is a two-pipe system (one inlet, one outlet) and
    have nothing in the way of valves on the radiator. I'm curious
    about the functional differences between the two systems. Can
    someone explain?

    re: .11  You almost certainly have forced hot water, not steam.

    My house has a one-pipe steam heating system.  During this last
    week, one of my radiators (in an upstairs bedroom) has been spitting 
    and dripping water out of its release vent. I replaced the vent with 
    a new one (Vent-Rite), but the water still comes out.  I also tried
    adjusting the vent to see if slowing the escape of steam would prevent
    water from escaping.  That didn't work either. 
                       
    To give you an idea of the amount of wate leaking, I keep a towel
    under the vent, and overnight, it gets sopping wet.                    
                                                       
    I can hear water sloshing around in the radiator; it makes quite
    a bit of noise when the steam is coming up.  I thought perhaps the
    water was trapped in the radiator, but I checked it with a level,
    and there is a definite slope down toward the valve (where the water
    should be draining out).
       
    This "spitting" problem has never happened before, although I have
    always heard water in the radiator.  Could the extreme cold weather
    we've been having be part of the problem?  On the last few nights,
    the heat has been on nearly constantly -- maybe the water doesn't
    have a chance to drain back down through the system? 
       
    Has anyone had a similar problem? 
       
    Thanks for any help.
    Joe                                                         
    
    
    
    

    Check out note 1848.* 
    
    (Your boiler may be too full)

    This has happened to me for about 2 years, and I still haven't been
    able to find the cause.
    
    I'm sure my boiler isn't full, and I have removed and drained the
    radiator a couple of times.  The air valve is new.
    
    I'm at a loss as to what to do.  
    
    -bill
    
    One thing I did notice the other day.  We have two steam feed pipes
    running around in the basement.  One for the front of the house
    and one for the rear.  The one for the front has a drain back to
    the boiler just before it turns to go upstairs.  The one for the
    back doesn't but the pipe is slanted back towards the boiler and
    the drain side.
    
    Guess which one has the filled/noisy radiators?
    Yup, the one without the drain.  
    
    Still confused though.
    
    

    I go with .1
    
    The sight glass on the side of the boiler should be 1/3 to 1/2 full
    only.
    
    

    I thought of making this device that would attach to the sight tube
    on a steam boiler that would indicate when the water level is low
    and needs to be filled. Basically it would be an LED and a sensor
    hooked to a piezo buzzer powered off a 9 v. battery. When there
    is water in the tube, it would difuse the light from the LED. Then
    when the level got low, no diffusion, buzzer sounds. The LED/sensor
    would be mounted in a piece of 1/2" foam pipe insulation, like
    Climatube 80, and then snapped onto the tube. Then you could easily
    slide it up and down to adjust the height. Anyone else ever thought
    about this or have any ideas?
    
    Tim

There is a gizmo that your "Mass. Licensed Plumber" could install.  

You know how there is that float that shuts off the furnace when there is 
too little water?  well it is the same idea, I don't know where it is 
installed (obviously somewhere in the water feed line) but when the water 
gets too low, it opens the water feed until it is at a proper level again.

    The boiler can't be too full, but I've seen this when I know the
    water level is right.
    
    I've found several causes.
    
    One, when pipes are installed they are generally oiled to cut the
    threads. This oil eventually ends up in your boiler, where it floats
    on the water. Instead of the water gently boiling it boils with
    mini - **Explosions** which push water up the steam pipes. In a
    severe case this can cause valves to jet water.  The oil problem
    is usually found only on new installations, but other dirt could
    also be responsible. Drain the boiler, flush, and add a cleaner
    when you refill.
    
    Two, radiators rust. Rust flakes that fall into the bottom of the
    radiator can cause small dams which collect water.
    
    Three, the steam valve on the radiator should be ALL THE WAY OPEN.
    If it isn't rising steam tends to block water from leaving. 

        A modern steam heating system has been proposed for some
        public housing to be built in our town.  The contractor
        claims that while the initial cost is higher than FHW (mostly
        do to added labor cost), modern steam is actually MUCH more
        efficient than FHW.  Is this true?

        Bob

    Re: .18
    
    Define "efficiency".  If you're talking about the efficiency of
    the burner, then the type of heating system doesn't matter.
    You can put the same burner in either one.
    If you're talking about the efficiency of the boiler, the type 
    of heating system doesn't matter either, probably, because I'm
    pretty sure a boiler for hot water and and boiler for steam are
    both designed in basically the same way.
    If you're talking about transmission of the heat to where it is
    needed, one might say that steam is more efficient, because steam
    contains more heat per unit than hot water does.  However, I'm
    not sure that type of efficiency buys you anything.  You need to
    circulate more hot water to transfer the same amount of heat, but
    who cares, it's all a closed system and the water (or steam) is
    just a carrier to move heat from one place to another.
    Steam DOES have the advantage that it doesn't need circulating pumps
    or valves, and if the boiler is gas it can be set up so it's completely
    independent of electrical power and will still work if there is
    a power failure.  For public housing, that might be a big plus.
    Forced hot water has the advantage of being more flexible; it's
    easier to put in separate zones and thermostats.
    Each type of system has advantages and disadvantages, and my guess
    is that given a properly designed system of either type you could 
    heat a building "efficiently" and for the same amount of money,
    or close enough so it wouldn't matter.  
    
    Ask the contractor what he means by "efficient".  

    A few months ago the Boston Glob Magazine had a little column about
    steam heat, in particular how its clanging noise is characteristic
    of the old houses in the Northeastern US.  (It wasn't popular in
    many other parts of the country, it seems.)  And it hasn't been
    installed anew since the early '50s, except, one contractor noted,
    for a Russian immigrant who grew up with it and found the noise
    comforting!  (No accounting for taste, I guess.)
    
    But thinking about "modern steam", I remember the installation at
    my college campus (begun 1966 and still under way).  Its central
    heating plant (burns most of upstate NY's used motor oil) generates
    both steam and hot water.  During the winter, the main water pipe
    carries hot water to the buildings, where it heats forced air as
    well as domestic hot water tanks.  During the summer, the main water
    pipe is converted to chill water, but a secondary steam system provides
    domestic HW and whatever heat is still needed (it gets pretty cold
    in the Adirondacks in May and October).
    
    These are NOT old fashioned one-pipe steam radiators.  If the town
    is really thinking about using steam clangers in a public housing
    project, then I'd suspect them of simply being sadistic to the poor!
    But steam as a "wholesale" transfer medium is quite reasonable,
    and a 2-pipe steam radiator may also be viable.
           fred

    Properly installed steam doesn't have to clang.  There is
    steam heat in my parents' house, built in 1953, and about the
    only noise is the occasional hiss of the steam vents.  

    If you have "clanging" there is probably water trapped in the system
    somewhere. Old houses tend to settle and radiators may lose their
    pitch so when the water condensates it doesn't all drain back to
    the boiler. They also don't heat as well. 
    
    Mike "who used to work on the suckers and is glad he doesn't anymore"

    I'm in the process of putting in a sliding glass door and as a result,
    I have to move the radiator.  I'm prepared to buy new pipes after
    reading this note, that shouldn't be a problem.  However, the radiator
    is painted an awful yellow color, and I want to strip it and repaint
    it.  I planned to use a chemical stripper and let it sit, then reuse
    as many times as I have to in order to get the paint off?  Is this
    a good method?  (Exclusive of sand-blasting).
    Also, I plan to repaint the radiator.  I know that most radiators
    are painted either metallic silver or gold to reflect the heat.
    What if the boss (wife) wants a different color?  Any disadvantages?
    Or a box/cover around the radiator to hide the "fins"?  It would
    probably suit her a little better.  Any paticular color to paint
    it?  (FWIW, the radiator is in the kitchen, with a light hardwood
    floor, dark cabinets, polyed wainscoating, and very little off-white
    wallpaper, if that matters to any interior decorators.)  Thanks
    for any and all advice.
    

    Think about sandblasting; it's THE way to get paint off cast iron.
    I think chemical stripping may be a problem because the surface is
    so rough, but I dont' know.  Anyway, all you really need to do is
    get off most of the paint, so you have a reasonable surface to
    paint over.  I'd go with sandblasting though; they place I took
    my radiators even primed them for me, for just a couple of bucks
    more.
    Best color for a radiator is flat black.  The WORST color is metallic
    anything.  Metallic silver is terrible. In theory.  In practice
    I don't think I'd let it keep me from choosing a color I liked.
    I think I'd avoid metallic paint, but I wouldn't worry about any 
    other color.  If you want to go for efficiency, the darker the color 
    the better.
    

    Removing the paint from our radiators is going to be my job.  My
    husband said I'd have to use a wire brush.  Maybe I'll tell him
    about having them sandblasted and primed.  
    
    About colors:
    
    Our neighbor did theirs in an antique white (off white).  It looked
    great.  My husband also saw some that were two-toned.  The second
    color was used in a line down the seams of the radiator.
    
    Kathy

    
    .18 is right about the color.  You want to *radiate* heat, not
    reflect it.  Soft dark colors are the best.  You can paint them
    to match the appliances or cabinets if you like.  If you don't like 
    the fins, you can put a box around it with a grate or open side 
    toward the center of the room.  If you decide to go that route, you 
    might want to insulate the part of the box that faces the wall, to 
    help direct the heat toward the inside of the house rather than
    into the wall.
    
    -tm
    

A very recent issue of The Old-House Journal has an extensive set of 
articles on:

    stripping radiators
    painting radiators - materials, colors, styles
    effect of color selection on heating efficiency
    radiator covers
    effect of various types of radiator covers on heating efficiency
    
Highly recommended.  Many public libraries have OHJ.

    
    Re: .18-20
    
    	I don't understand the distinction being drawn between "radiating"
    heat versus "reflecting" it.  No matter what color you paint it,
    the paint, as a physical part of the heating mechanism, is going
    to radiate away heat dependent solely upon its temperature.  The
    heat flow is this: conduction from the water to the metal, conduction
    from the metal to the paint followed by radiating from the paint
    to the room.  A flat black radiator would have _less_ radiative power
    (?) since infra-red rays from location A on the radiator could be
    absorbed by location B.  If it was a lighter, more reflective, color,
    this infra-red ray would be more likely to reflect back away from the
    radiator to other presumably more important items in the room like
    air shredders.
    
    	In short, black is a good color for something that you want
    to _absorb_ heat.  But which do you ultimately want to heat, the
    radiator or the room?  This presumes that you're not counting on
    the radiator acting as a heat-sink (say, in front of a sunny window
    in the wintertime), at which a lower radiative rate might be desired
    along with the greater absorption rate.
    
    	Except for discussions on thermodynamics, the bottom line is
    simply this: paint it whatever color you want since it doesn't make
    any significant difference to the heat-transfer anyway.  The asthetics
    of it matching the room probably far outweighs any minor advantage
    / disadvantage of a particular color.
    
    							-c
    

>    No matter what color you paint it,
>    the paint, as a physical part of the heating mechanism, is going
>    to radiate away heat dependent solely upon its temperature.  

Not true.  The radiation of heat by a surface depends on the surface coating in 
exactly the same way that absorbtion does.  By exactly I mean exactly - a 
surfact that absorbs heat well for a given wavelength of radiation also emits
radiation well for that wavelength.  Reflective surfaces such as foil absorb 
and radiate heat very poorly.  In general, dark surfaces absorb and radiate 
heat very well.  But not necessarily, since the wavelengths we see are
different from the wavelengths of the heat radiation.  In fact, solar collector 
companies have developed coatings that are high absorbtion for visible light 
(they look flat black, absorbtion of something like 98%), yet are almost 
completely reflective to infrared heat radiation (absorbtion , or emissivity 
as it is termed when talking about outgoing radiation, of only about 5%)

>    	Except for discussions on thermodynamics, the bottom line is
>    simply this: paint it whatever color you want since it doesn't make
>    any significant difference to the heat-transfer anyway.  The asthetics
>    of it matching the room probably far outweighs any minor advantage
>    / disadvantage of a particular color.

Agreed.  Why are we talking about all this other stuff anyway?

Paul    

    Thanks for all the advice.  I didn't mean to start a discussion
    and/or debate on the laws of thermodynamics.  I did hear that flat
    black would "absorb" the heat more than it would radiate it, that
    was why I asked in the first place.  I think I'll paint it the color
    the wife wants and install a reversible ceiling fan to move the
    heat around if it's needed.  Thanks again.
     

    How about mounting one of those radiator reflectors on the wall
    behind the radiator?  That would probably have more effect than
    whatever color you paint the radiator itself, and would be practically
    invisible.

    Re: radiant colors, etc.
    Yeah, I don't understand how/why it's true either, but it is.  Black
    is the best radiating color, just as it's the best absorbing color.
    
    But my parents have had metallic silver radiators for over 30 years
    and they've always worked just fine...so paint them the color you
    want and don't worry about it.
    
    As far as using a wire brush...groan.  It might work, but haven't
    you got better things to do?  You can probably get the radiators
    sandblasted and primed for about $20 apiece, depending on size,
    and the result will be GOOD.  There won't be any crevices you couldn't
    get to.  

>    But my parents have had metallic silver radiators for over 30 years
>    and they've always worked just fine...so paint them the color you
>    want and don't worry about it.

I thought about it last night and realized why the color winds up making little 
difference - if the radiator emits less radiation because of the coating, then 
it heats up more.  As it heats up more, it emits more radiation, until it winds 
up emitting about the same amount of radiation as the darker radiator.  The 
only real difference is that it's a few degrees hotter to the touch, and has a 
slightly less efficient heat transfer from the steam, due to the higher 
temperature.

Paul

    
.27>> I thought about it last night and realized why the color winds up making little 
.27>> difference - if the radiator emits less radiation because of the coating, then 
.27>> it heats up more.  As it heats up more, it emits more radiation, until it winds 
.27>> up emitting about the same amount of radiation as the darker radiator.  The 
.27>> only real difference is that it's a few degrees hotter to the touch, and has a 
.27>> slightly less efficient heat transfer from the steam, due to the higher 
.27>> temperature.
      
    Well, no.  A radiator that transfers heat faster, can give off more
    heat to a room.  You see, when the radiator reaches a certain
    temperature (actually when the steam in it reaches a certain pressure),
    the air vent shuts off, and steam will stop filling the radiator.
    However, if the radiator transfers the heat faster (due to a better
    radiating surface or a fan which blows the heat into the room or ...),
    The vent will open up sooner (since the pressure will drop sooner),
    and the radiator will fill up with more steam.
    
    Modern steam radiators often have a fan built into them, so that
    they can transfer heat faster.  Therefore, they can be smaller (have
    less surface area) than the equivalent "old-fashioned" kind and
    still produce the same amount of heat.
    
    

>    Well, no.  A radiator that transfers heat faster, can give off more
>    heat to a room.  You see, when the radiator reaches a certain
>    temperature (actually when the steam in it reaches a certain pressure),
>    the air vent shuts off, and steam will stop filling the radiator.
>    However, if the radiator transfers the heat faster (due to a better
>    radiating surface or a fan which blows the heat into the room or ...),
>    The vent will open up sooner (since the pressure will drop sooner),
>    and the radiator will fill up with more steam.

i thought the air vent was to let out the cold air in the radiator on 
start up.  once it's out the steam hits the vent and the temp closes it.  
at that point the steam is condensing inside the radiator which causes a 
low pressure (water takes less volume than steam), the low pressure 
attracts more steam to the radiator and a vicious cycle unsues.  as long as 
the radiator continues to give off heat fast enough (room is cold) the 
cycle continues.  ideally the vent stays closed until the thermostat shuts 
down the furnace and things cool down.

now i know mine don't stay closed all the time but the good ones pop open 
and closed real fast without much air/steam escaping at all.

now the question is...is this really just a lot of hot air?

craig
    

Again, I urge anybody interested in accurate information (rather than
speculation) on this subject to check out the Old-House Journal issue
mentioned in .21. 

One of the articles there presents results of empirical testing with
identical radiators painted various colors, glosses, etc.  My hazy memory
is of a maximum BTU variation of 15% or so between the best and worst
paints. 

    
    RE: .30
    
    Dave, if you have some spare time, perhaps you could type in some
    of the highlights of the article.  It sounds pretty interesting.
    
    -tm
    

    Does anyone know where I can get radiator covers (inexpensively
    of course) ?  I live in the Fitchburg area and no one seems to
    have stock but one person can custom make them.
    
    Thanks, Diane

A recent issue of The Old-House Journal has extensive articles on radiator
covers and coverings.  I'm pretty sure they listed sources as well (and/or
had ads from sources).  Their sources might be in the pricey business of
providing historically correct radiator covers for various historic
periods, but at least you might get some ideas.

    There is a place that advertises in the Boston Globe TV Guide, I
    think they are all custom made, I don't really know and I can't
    remember their name but they are in almost every issue.
    
    ~jeff

    O'Coins appliance store on Mill St. in Worcester advertises radiator
    covers, some are standard (if your house is as old as mine, standard
    is RIGHT OUT) and some can be custom-sized.  
    
    Sarah
    

    Thanks everyone, for your help. I found some information based
    on your responses and you know what? Radiator covers are expensive!!
    Welcome to the world of home ownership.
    
    Therese - a radiator cover is sort of like what you describe -
    it hides the radiator. The cover is usually made of metal and
    usually has a flat surface so you can rest things on it. Most of
    them have a sort of gril-work on the front to let the heat move
    out into the room.
    
    Diane

	I just had a radiator done at B-C industries the price has
	gone up $1.-, i.e. sandblast $12 a running foot, prime an
	additional $6 per foot.  I took a twelve fin radiator from
	a bedroom and it cost me $40 blasted and primed, (they use
	whatever primer is in the gun).  It came out real well, I
	couldn't imagine doing these beasties with paint stripper
	or a wire brush.

	Anyways they've moved, they are now in Southbridge, (508)987-3042
	Located in the Oxford Industrial Park East, take Rt 395 to Exit
	3, almost Webster.  Left at end of ramp onto Cudworth Rd.
	Approximately 3/10 mile, take another left onto Town Forest Rd. 
	you'll see a Moores Lumber, go approximately 1 mi take a right 
	(its a circular drive so if you miss it take next one.  They're
	next to the brown space building under construction.  BC is in the
	mustard colored space building.  There is a "small" sign.

						One happy customer

    Have you considered trying to make the covers yourself?  The metal
    "grid" can be purchased at many places.  I know I have seen it at
    Channel.  The rest of the cover seems to just be 1x4? stock.
    
    Ed..
    

    Yes, they do reduce efficiency, but, they're great for hiding the
    radiators in the warmer months!   I have some made out of pine, and
    put plants on them in the summer.  They look much better that way.

    But, I always remove the covers in the winter, so the heat will radiate
    more efficiently.

    - Linda

    I've looked through all the notes, but haven't found any thing like
    this, so here goes!
    
    We recently moved into an old colonial with one pipe steam heat.
    Its got a great brand new high efficiency boiler installed, but
    there's *NO* insulation on any of the steam pipes.  I found out
    that the previous owner had the old asbestos insulation taken out
    when the new boiler was installed.  I'm happy that the asbestos
    is gone, but now we're heating our basement to 80 deg just to get
    the house up to 65 deg :^(   Last night was the first time we've
    used the heat in this house, and I want to get this fixed ASAP.
    
    What type of insulation is best (foam, fiberglass, or other) given
    the relatively high temps involved?  What thickness is most cost
    effective?   The pipes vary in diameter from ~1-3/4 to ~4 inches.
    For this reason, I'm thinking I'll have to get something I can
    wrap the pipes with (yuk!).  Do the edges of the wrap get sealed
    with some sort of tape. Any ball park figure on $/ft of pipe?  
    
    Any advice or experience here would be greatly appreciated!
    
    Thanks,
          Jim

    I think there should be something specifically made for this, but
    you'll probably have to go to a "real" plumbing supply place to
    get it.  I suspect it will be made of rigid fiberglass, the same
    sort of stuff used to insulate heating ducts, but formed to go
    around pipes.  

re .7,.8:

I think radiator covers can enhance efficiency.  Radiators work also by 
convection, radiation works better at higher temps.  Anyway, by correctly 
positioning openings at the lower front and top a cover can cause an 
increase in draft over the radiator surface, an effect that enhances the 
convection coefficient.

Craig

Summerville Lumber carries fiberglass tubes in 4' lengths and various 
diameters - this is what you want.  The bad news is it's not cheap, but 
it's probably worth it.  Before paying I'd check prices at a place like 
Builder's Specialties in Worcester, a real trade supply place may be 
cheaper.

Craig

I'm going thru the same thing. I priced 1/2" thick fiberglass insulation
at County Supply in Chelmsford/Lowell. It's wicked expensive. They gave
me a price of $5.00 for a 3 foot length for a 2 1/2 inch diameter pipe.

My guess is that Somerville would be cheaper. If you price it there
please let me know.

I was told that the foam rubber stuff is no good for steam.

Linas

    
    Spags has it, too, but it's not particularly cheap there, either.
    
    -tm
    

      The old radiater covers in my parents home have (had?)  water pans
      inside. Thus they served as a humidifer in the winter. As I recall
      most/all  of them rusted out (the water pans, that is.  The covers
      are still in fine condition.)  My father didn't have them repaired
      or replaced.

      These covers were all metal, mostly perferated except at the edges
      and on top, and they were pained to match the woodwork.  (White) I
      think  they  are much more attractive than bare radiators, but the
      newer baseboard heat is SO much more efficient that these are  now
      largely a thing of the past.

    When we had out energy audit for the HEAT loan program, the auditor
    gave us an order form for the EASY Buying Co-op in Framingham.
    It lists fiberglass insulation for steam pipes with the notation
    "call for quote."  The phone number is 875-4921.

    BTW, we've ordered a bunch of stuff from them, including foam insulation
    for our FHW pipes.  The rest of the stuff came last week, but the
    insulation had to be special ordered.

RE .-1:
>      newer baseboard heat is SO much more efficient that these are  now
>      largely a thing of the past.

    Not true, according to numerous heating contractors we've dealt with.
    Certainly, the baseboard units respond more quickly (less mass to heat),
    but the old wall cast-iron radiators retain the heat longer.  For a new
    installation, they recommend cast-iron baseboard units, not the copper-
    finned jobs.  Most important, they say *not* to mix types of radiators,
    even cast-iron wall units with cast-iron baseboard units.

>< Note 2633.11 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >
>                             -< Cast-iron is best >-
>
>RE .-1:
>>      newer baseboard heat is SO much more efficient that these are  now
>>      largely a thing of the past.
>
>    Not true, according to numerous heating contractors we've dealt with.
>    Certainly, the baseboard units respond more quickly (less mass to heat),
>    but the old wall cast-iron radiators retain the heat longer.  For a new
>    installation, they recommend cast-iron baseboard units, not the copper-
>    finned jobs.  Most important, they say *not* to mix types of radiators,
>    even cast-iron wall units with cast-iron baseboard units.

      My  reply  (.-2  from  here)  reference  to "newer baseboard heat"
      without differentiating between cast-iron or  finned-copper.   The
      point  is  that both of these types provide radiated and convected
      heat much more efficiently than the old cast-iron radiators.
      
      With   all  due  respect  to  "numerous  heating  contractors"  my
      preference is to put thermal mass (such as the cast-iron baseboard
      heat  units) into other parts of the house (Ceramic tile flooring,
      heavy exposed beams, etc.)  rather than into the baseboard heat. I
      want that heat to be able to respond quickly when needed.  I don't
      want them to retain the heat longer, potentially  overheating  the
      house.  When a "low, even heat" is desired the way to get it is by
      using controls that keep the water at a lower temperature.   These
      controls typically accept outside and inside temperature as inputs
      and then heat the water only to the temperature required.
      
      You  certainly  don't want to mix different types of units because
      they will radiate/convict at different rates causing uneven  heat.
      The  exception  to  this  would  be  different  types  of units on
      different zones.  e.g. You could  use  baseboard  heat  in  a  new
      addition  on a zone separate from the old radiators in the rest of
      the house. (There are probably limits to what is reasonable, based
      on  the nature of the existing units and on the type of boiler you
      will be using.)

    
    
    
    I've lived with a 25 year old steam system for the last 6 years.
    Here are a few tips that anyone can do to make their system more
    efficient.
        
    1)  Make sure the pressure releaf valve is operating properly. They can
    become corroded and become stuck in the open position. If this happens,
    a colume of steam will be escaping from it, when the burner is on.
    Sometimes it can be freed up by twisting it or moving the lever up and
    down. 
    
    2)  Insulate all the steam pipes.  This helps to get all the heat
    to the radiators.
    
    3)  Keep the water in the boiler clean.  Rusty water has a higher
    boiling point, which causes the burner to fire longer to make steam.
    
    4)  Keep the place where the boiler is as warm as possible.  Stop
    up all drafts, insulate, etc.  This will help keep the water temp.
    warmer, therefore less heating requirement.  
    
    
    Bill
                                               

    RE -1
    
    Question regarding tip #3...keeping the boiler water clean.
    
    As a fairly new homeowner (slightly over a year), I'm trying.  Anyway,
    I had the boiler, etc. replaced as soon as we moved in (July, '87).
    It was an old cast iron thing covered with asbestos, running about
    47% efficient.  It was replaced with a new system, at +/- 90%
    efficient.  It works great, I've blown the water out during the
    heating season as instructed, but as of late, the water in the glass
    tube on the boiler is _very_ rusty.  How can I get it clean and
    keep it clean?  Even after I blow out the water, the tube refills
    with dirty/rusty water.
    
    The heat works fine.  The only major thing thats been done regarding
    the water, is that the pipe from the haze-box to my house was replaced.
    The water out of the faucets is clean and now there's plenty of
    pressure.       
    
    Thanks for all help.
    
    Gene
      
    

                  
.24>  I had the boiler, etc. replaced as soon as we moved in (July, '87).
.24>  It was an old cast iron thing covered with asbestos, running about
.24>  47% efficient.  It was replaced with a new system, at +/- 90%
.24>  efficient.  It works great, I've blown the water out during the
.24>  heating season as instructed, but as of late, the water in the glass
.24>  tube on the boiler is _very_ rusty.  How can I get it clean and
.24>  keep it clean?  Even after I blow out the water, the tube refills
.24>  with dirty/rusty water.
    
    I've had long conversations with my oil guy about this stuff (he
    works on a lot of steam systems).  Evidently the new steam systems
    are very efficient, and force the steam through the pipes much faster.
    This takes out the rust that is lining your pipes.  This process
    can take up to 2 years for an old system.  
    
    He says that systems going through this process should be partially
    drained (a couple of buckets full) every week during the heating
    season. The best time to do it is when the boiler's been off for a
    while (and some of the rust has settled).  Then fill up the system
    after you've drained it.  If you want to get fanatical about it, you
    could drain the whole system occasionally, but you better have a hose 
    and somewhere to pump it to, cause it holds a lot of water! 
    
    The question is, why is it happening more now?  Well, certainly
    your boiler is running more often now that the weather is colder,
    but how does it compare to last winter?
    

    When we moved in to our "new" 100 year old house in June, one of
    the conditions of sale was that they replace the old oil boiler
    with a new gas boiler.
    
    The previous owner, who happens to work for Commonwealth Gas, told
    me to drain the water frequently at first, not because of rust in
    the pipes, but because of the coating on the new pipes that comes
    off when first used.  That is, most cast iron pipes come with a thin
    layer of oil on them, and it tends to comes off as the system is
    used.
    
    This oil ends up in the boiler where it can prevent the steam from
    rising.  It also appears in the water tube as a rust colored substance.
    
    Either way, be it rust or oil, it is necessary to drain the boiler
    frequently, but only when not in use.  If you put the cold water
    back in on a hot boiler, the boiler may crack.
    
    /am

       I drain my boiler every Sat. Just let the water run into a bucket
    until it is running clear, It's usually only a half gallon or so
    now. Remember to refill the boiler SLOWLY, you're adding cold water
    to hot. I replaced my boiler 2 years ago, the water in the glass
    has been clear from almost the start.
                                                       Denny

    Thanks for the replies, but there's still a couple of questions.
    First, I have followed the instructions on the new boiler pretty
    much religously.  By that, I mean that I drain the water in the
    boiler weekly during the heating season, and every 3 weeks to monthly
    in the summer.  Yet, even when the boiler blows out the black water,
    then the rusty water, until it runs clear.  Then I fill the boiler,
    but the water tube fills with rusty water.  Why now, over a year
    since the boiler was replaced?  It used to fill with clear water
    until approximately 2 months ago.  Why the sudden change and is
    there anything I can do to correct this, short of calling a
    plumber/heating tech.?  Also, is this damaging to the boiler?
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Gene
     

    
    RE: .28
    
    Are any of the pipes that feed the boiler made of iron?
    

    There will always be some iron in the pipes, if you don't want to
    look at the iron in the glass, shut off the bottom valve on the
    glass when you drain the water out. You will have to gauge the 
    amount of water drained by the bucket, but when you have finished
    "blowing off" the boiler, you open the valve on the bottom of the
    glass, it will now show the correct level of water, and will remain
    clear. Add the cold water slooowly. There will still be some iron
    in the pipes but the water in the glass should remain clear.
    
    							Chris

There's been alot of conversation about draining a boiler in the last few
notes. Are you guys draining it through the low water shutoff gizmo 
valve or just the valve on the bottom of the boiler? Its important
to drain water through the low water shutoff to flush the crud away 
from the float so the low water shutoff works correctly. Then
I also drain some water out of the bottom of the boiler. There's 
usuallly some black water there too.

Also, regarding the rusty water, if the pipes are iron, you'll
always have rust.

    Someone said that they had replaced an old boiler with a new one
    and were getting 90% efficiency.  My question is, how much money
    can be saved by changing to a new boiler with 90% efficiency from
    an old one that about 75%?

    Thanks, Bill

    Well...let's see.  Assume you burn 1000 gallons of oil a year, at
    100,000 btu/gallon.  At 75% efficiency, you're getting 75,000
    btu/gallon out of it, for a total of 75,000,000/year.  That's your
    yearly heating requirement.  Now, if your new boiler has 90%
    efficiency, you'll have to burn 833 gallons of oil to get 75,000,000
    btu.  So you'll save 167 gallons of oil a year.  About $150.  If
    the new boiler costs $3,000, it will take you 20 years to pay
    for it.  If you burn less than 1,000 gallons of oil a year, it
    will take even longer.  Of course, if you burn more than 1,000
    gallons, it will take less time.

RE: -.1,-.2

Efficiency does not mean a thing at all! I dont know what a better
method for measuring this kind of thing wouuld be, but that efficiency
thing is not it.

I had an old ~40 year old steam coal converted to oil furnace
that was tested at 72% efficiency. The first year I lived in the house it
cost $1200.00 for hot water and heat (I heated in the morning and evenings only
while I was home). It was like Acapulco in the basement all the time (very
warm). It took about an hour to get heat in the radiators. If I ran the 
washer, the furnace would have to run so long that it made steam (the 
radiators upstairs would get warm). My chimney comes up through my kitchen,
the boiler ran so long that the walls of the chimney in the kitchen would
get warm. It used about 250 gallons just between mid-August and mid-November, 
bearly the heating season. I almost had a heart attack. All this at 72% 
efficiency.

The furnace was replaced in the spring ( I kept the steam heat) and for 
the same August to November period it used ONLY 100 gallons of oil. The 
radiators get hot in about 15 minutes. The basement and the chimney are both
cool. When the boiler isnt doing anything it runs for 1.5 minutes to keep the 
water in it up to temperature. I suspect that my heating bill will drop by half.

Any ideas what the efficiency of the new boiler is?????? Greater that 100%???

    
    Re: .34
    
    	I agree that the efficiency didn't mean a thing to you with
    the old furnace.  It sounds like you had a very definite case of
    having a furnace that was way under capacity.  Efficiency is a measure
    of how much heat comes out _of the furnace_ compared with the potential
    heat energy of what went in -- it is not a measurement of whether
    that quantity of heat coming out is enough!  Electric heat is very
    efficient, but a single 98% efficiency (lets say) 500 watt heater isn't
    going to heat my house...
    
    	Efficiency is a good measuring tool if you're comparing two
    furnaces that would otherwise both do a good job of heating the
    house.
    
    							-c

    
    RE: .34 (the boiler that took an hour to heat up the radiators)
    
    The situation you described is very similar to the condition
    I lived in last year.  However, that is not enough information
    to determine that the boiler is undersized.  The heating company
    I dealt with last year told me I needed a new boiler, too, but
    another heating contractor looked at my boiler and found that
    it had enough capacity, but the nozzel on the burner was too
    small.  This was hopefully not the case with your boiler,
    but I wanted to mention it to others, before they get "taken" 
    by a heating company the way I almost was.
                                           
    Incidentally, may I ask what the size of your house is (sq ft of
    living space and ceiling height) and the amount of insulation it
    has?  It seems like your heating bills with the new boiler are
    quite low, and I'd be interested in comparing them to mine. 
    
    -tm
                                                                
                 

RE .35

The old furnace was not under capacity. It heated the house just fine. 
Somewhere someone wrote that the capacity should be such that the boiler
runs all the time on the coldest day of the year. My old one didn't. It
ran "normally" meaning it would run and then stop etc. If my old boiler was 
"way under capacity" I would have froze in the wintertime. 

There has been discussion of efficency before, but it's still not clear to
me. If efficiency is a measure of how much heat comes out of the furnace
compared with the potential heat energy of what went in, shouldn't that
be 100%? The question is where is that heat going? My old furnace kept the
basement warm and heated the chimney and outdoors well in addition to 
heating the living space. Isn't that how efficiency should be measured? What
percentage of the heat goes into the living space? How would you measure
something like that? Burner efficiency does not measure that, I don't think.

>>>    Efficiency is a good measuring tool if you're comparing two
>>>    furnaces that would otherwise both do a good job of heating the
>>>    house.
    
       What does that mean? 
 
 Re: .36
    
Its a cape, insulated roof rafter, 2 bedrooms upstairs, storm windows, 
insulation in walls I dont know about. Its about 1700 square feet I think.

The nozzle size has to do with capacity. I think capacity and efficiency
are 2 seperate things. It had enough capacity, it could always heat the house
even on coldest days, but it sucked down alot of oil in doing it. When you
changed the size of the nozzle, did your oil consumption go down. I'll bet
it went up slightly since you moved closer to the "excess capacity" region. 
I believe that a boiler should almost go constantly on the coldest day to 
be efficient. That makes sense in terms of the right amount of "capacity".

    
    	Yes, efficiency is the comparison between the heat potential
    of the fuel that goes into the furnace compared to the usable heat
    that comes out.  Electric is close to 100% efficient, but anything
    that uses combustion; gas, oil, coal, etc., will be less efficient.
    Why?  The act of burning (unless you want a lot of fumes in the
    house :-) requires sending the directly-heated air (read: exhaust
    gas) directly up the chimney.  The flames on my gas furnace, for
    example, don't heat my air directly, but rather heat a separate
    chamber that in turn heats the house's air.  The efficiency of gas
    furnaces, therefore, relates to how well the heat is passed from
    the directly-heated air to the chamber to the house's air.  If the
    temperature of the exhaust fumes were room temperature (i.e. the
    same temp as the air going into the burner area), then all the heat
    added directly by the flames would have gone into the chamber and
    then into the house's air.  This would be 100% efficiency -- every
    possible calorie of heat went from the fuel into the house's air.
    However, the exhaust stack gets very hot which means heat is being
    lost up the chimney -- not a goal, nor an efficient use of the fuel.
    
								-c

    Your old clunker of a boiler was spending a lot of time heating
    up the water in the boiler (the old boilers generally held a
    LOT of water) and the basement.  It had to run a long time just
    to get the water up to the point that it could begin to heat
    the house, and because the boiler wasn't insulated, a lot of
    that heat was lost into the basement before it even got to the
    living space.  Even though the burner might have been, say, 75%
    efficient, a lot of the heat that did get produced wasn't in
    a form that was useful to you.  
    A new boiler, with a small water capacity and better insulation,
    can heat up rapidly, and because of the better insulation will make
    more effective use of the heat it does produce.  It might also
    measure 75% combustion efficiency but from the practical standpoint
    of heating your house require less oil to get the same results.

    Now I'm confused.  I guess efficiency relates to burner efficiency. Is
    that correct?  But, how can you determine the *SYSTEM* efficiency. In
    other words, how can I tell if a new boiler will get more heat to the
    radiators from burning a gallon of oil than my present boiler. And how
    can I determine how much oil I will save by installing a new boiler? 
      

    Thanks, Bill    

So then is what I said basically correct? 72% in 2 different boilers 
is irrelevant in terms of how much it costs to heat my house? So that
even though my old boiler the 72%, it took alot of that 72% to heat the
water and in turn the basement?

When they measure efficiency what are they measuring? Is it called
combustion efficiency (and what does that mean) or should it be called 
"28%_of_my_oil_bill_goes_up_the_chimney_in_the_form_of_heat_and_in_the_case
of_my_"old clunker"_maybe_uncombusted_oil? 

RE: .40

What I did is asked my neighbor who has a similar house how much his heat
runs. For a 1700 foot cape I think that $600-900 would be a ballpark. My
oil bill was $1200 so I new something was wrong. Like I said in a previous
note, the Aug-Nov period used 250 gallons. This was mostly for hot water.
I guess another indicator is the age itself. Years about oil was cheap so 
no one cared. The new boilers use oil more effectively.

We should probably move this to one of the "efficiency notes".

       When I had my boiler replaced 2 years ago, they took out a 40
    gallon monster and replaced it with a nice little 5 gallon job.
    The difference is obvious.
                                                        Denny

.37> There has been discussion of efficency before, but it's still not clear to
.37> The question is where is that heat going? My old furnace kept the
.37> basement warm and heated the chimney and outdoors well in addition to 
.37> heating the living space. Isn't that how efficiency should be
.37> measured? What percentage of the heat goes into the living space? 
.37> How would you measure something like that? Burner efficiency does 
.37> not measure that, I don't think.

    You are right, burner efficiency does not measure the efficiency
    of the whole system.  If your stack temperature was high (and it
    sounds like it was, since the chimney was being heated), then you
    boiler was inefficient.  The burner may have been converting the
    oil to heat efficiently, but a good deal of it was not being used
    by the boiler.
    
.37> The nozzle size has to do with capacity. I think capacity and efficiency
.37> are 2 seperate things. It had enough capacity, it could always heat
.37> the house even on coldest days, but it sucked down alot of oil in
.37> doing it. 

    Well, the nozzel size on the burner isn't directly related to the capacity 
    of the boiler, but the size of the boiler is related to the maximum
    size nozzel that should be used.  If the nozzel is too big, the
    excess heat will go up the chimney.
    
.37> When you changed the size of the nozzle, did your oil 
.37> consumption go down. I'll bet it went up slightly since you moved
.37> closer to the "excess capacity" region.  I believe that a boiler 
.37> should almost go constantly on the coldest day to be efficient. 
.37> That makes sense in terms of the right amount of "capacity".
    
    I don't believe my oil consumption went up *at all* !  And, the 
    furnace did go on constantly on the coldest days, but the house
    was still cold!  And when I mean cold, I mean BELOW FREEZING!
    
>    < Note 588.42 by SALEM::RIEU >
>
>       When I had my boiler replaced 2 years ago, they took out a 40
>    gallon monster and replaced it with a nice little 5 gallon job.
>    The difference is obvious.                            
>                                                        Denny

    Say what???  Are you talking about a STEAM boiler?  If I had a 5
    gallon boiler it would go dry every time it heated the house.

    

       re:.43
         Yup! That's what the guy told me. It's a Weil Mclain.
                                                         Denny

    5 gallons of water makes an awful lot of steam!  I can believe it.

    Well, I suppose it's time to resurrect this note.  I have one radiator
    that's making a hell of a banging noise, and it just so happens
    to be in the baby's room.  The radiator was working fine in the
    past, and hadn't been disturbed, until a little while ago when it
    started to get a little cold outside.  The radiator didn't get hot
    at all.  I looked and the release valve was leaking, which I replaced.
    The vent must have been faulty, because it didn't leak, but no steam
    was being released, thus the radiator wasn't getting hot.  Again,
    I replaced the vent and this one releases.  However, now there's
    that banging.  
    
    I tried re-tilting the radiator (it's a one-pipe steam system),
    to no avail.  I then took the relief valve off and let it blow off
    steam that way.  I took the radiator off the pipe, opened the "shut-off
    valve" and turned on the heat, and let it blow steam that way, which
    it did after it blew out some water in the line.  I also drained
    the radiator which had water in it.  
    
    I put it all back together, re-tilted the radiator, and IT WORKED!
    For three days.  Now the banging is back again.  What's my next
    step?  There's got to be a fix for it, and I really don't want to
    drain the radiator every week.  
    
    FWIW, I checked the boiler water, made sure the glass tube on the
    boiler was only half full, and this is a upstairs radiator, and
    the only one that bangs.  As far as I can tell, this isn't the last
    radiator to heatin the system.  All the radiators upstairs heat
    at about the same speed. 
    
    Thanks for all advice.  
    
    Gene
    

    
    re: .14
    
    Is this an additive you can buy a any plumbing store? I have the
    same problem as he does. I also believe I have rust in the lines,
    so I was going to place a hose in at the radiator connection and
    try to push the rust back to the boiler to be drained. 
    
    Thanks
    Tim
    

    
    REL .14
    
    Not sure what the additive is, as I got it from my oil service guy.
    I assume it can be purchased in a plumbing/heating supply store
    though.  I have also thought about using diluted HCl.  I'll have
    to see what the ingredients are in the "conditioner" when I find
    it.
    

    I would be hesitant to try sending water back down the pipe with
    a hose.  You might succeed in getting some of the rust out, but
    would you cause any harm with all of that being dropped into the
    boiler in such volume?
    
    But then again, the cold water return works this way, doesn't it?
    
    Ed..
    

    
    .17> I would be hesitant to try sending water back down the pipe with
    .17> a hose.  You might succeed in getting some of the rust out, but
    .17> would you cause any harm with all of that being dropped into the
    .17> boiler in such volume?
    
    How else do you clean it out?   Any method you use (except for
    replacing the rusty pipes) will put rust in the boiler.  This should 
    be fine as long as the rusty water is drained from the boiler.  

    -tm
    

    
    Therese,
    
    Does the name SCOUT ring a bell? A local plumbing supply store has
    is and it is listed as a boiler cleaner. It is in powdered form
    and you add it to your boiler.
    
    Thanks
    Tim
    

    
    Sorry, Tim, I really don't remember.  But it was a powder that you
    mix with water.  One more tip, if you use it, don't drain out too
    much of the boiler all at once or you will drain out all the additive.
    I think I was a little over-zealous about draining my boiler after
    I put it in.
    
    -tm
    

    My olde 50-gallonish steam furnace puts out plenty of heat, but
    I don't think it's behaving quite right.  I have a question about
    how steam systems are supposed to handle "pressure".
    
    Here's my understanding of one-pipe steam.  The thermostat turns
    on the boiler.  Water boils; steam rises.  As each radiator gets
    hot, its release valve shuts (hssssss-clunk).  So far so good; all
    of my radiators get nice and hot.  BUT then, I am led to believe,
    the furnace is supposed to notice the pressure building up on the
    system and turn off until it stops boiling, even with the thermostat
    "on".  Mine does not do that; only the thermostat turns it off.
    
    There's a screw-adjusted dingus on top of the low-water shutoff
    which looks like the pressure detector.  (It's been spray-painted
    so no markings are visible.  Vandalism by previous owner's oil company,
    perhaps.)  It does nothing.  There's also a pressure gauge on the
    boiler itself, stuck at "20" even in the summer, so I don't know
    what the pressure really is.  I do know that a couple of radiators
    get so much pressure that they leak at the inlet or vent.  One (on
    the second floor, no less, but right above the furnace) get hot
    even if it's shut off.  (How hard is it to fix those old floor valves?)
    
    I worry that I'm stressing the 56-year-old boiler by running it
    this hard.  Should I worry?  Am I wasting lots of fuel?  The furnace,
    btw, is "oversized" in that during the very cold weather we've had,
    it still had no trouble keeping the house very warm, burning 1GPH.
    Thanks,
          fred

    P.S.  I don't want to replace the boiler yet since it's asbestos...
    the removal won't be fun or cheap.

                     
    > BUT then, I am led to believe, the furnace is supposed to notice
    > the pressure building up on the system and turn off until it stops
    > boiling, even with the thermostat "on". 
    
    It is my understanding that the high-pressure shutoff on the
    boiler is rarely engaged -- only when the boiler has been running
    a long time (say if you are trying to raise the temperature a
    great deal all at once).  However, you might want to ask a
    knowledgeable service person about the correct pressure shut-off
    for your system.  This may depend (in part) on the amount of
    piping and number/size of your radiators. 
    
    > I do know that a couple of radiators get so much pressure that
    > they leak at the inlet or vent. 
    
    Make sure that your radiators are slanted (slightly) toward the 
    steam valve.  This may not prevent it, but if water collects
    in the radiators, the steam will force it out of the air vent.
    Also, *never* shut off the steam valve when the radiator is
    hot.  This will cause water to collect in the radiator, and
    when you turn it back on ... Whoosh - instant red geyser!
    (Can you guess that I've had personal experience with this?)

    > One (on the second floor, no less, but right above the furnace)
    > get hot even if it's shut off.  (How hard is it to fix those old
    > floor valves?)
    
    First, if you want to shut off the radiator temporarily, turn
    off the air-vent (assuming you have a variable rate air vent).
    How hard is it to fix those old floor valves?   I'm not sure
    you want to know.  I'll try and enter a note on this as a reply
    to another note.  I don't think it belongs here.
            
    > I worry that I'm stressing the 56-year-old boiler by running it
    > this hard.  Should I worry?  Am I wasting lots of fuel? 
    
    I doubt you are "stressing" your boiler, however, you may wish
    to use a slightly smaller nozzle on your burner to save fuel
    if your furnace  has no trouble keeping up on the cold days.
    
    --tm

     Yes, the pressure should cut out the flame while the pressure is high.
 I had the same problem on my one pipe steam system. 
     I bought a new Honeywell "pressure-trol" (?) and put a new gauge next
to it off a tee. Also, a "pigtail" (copper pipe with a loop in it) will
prevent steam from getting to the equipment and destroying it.  The gauge
and pigtail are cheap, i think the controller cost a few bucks ($20-30?). 
The controller is adjustable for both high pressure cutoff and range
(effectively, low pressure cuton).  High pressure for a steam system is 
only a few pounds.  I think mine was cutting off at 4 psi and back on at 2. 
 If you check steam tables you'll see that not much pressure is required to 
get temps well above 212 deg f.
     Finally, unless you are really pumping btu's though the walls this will 
only come into play occasionally like warming up the house after you've 
been away or sub-zero weather.

Craig

    Thanks for the info.  I've been watching the device for a while.
    The mercury switch works, so if I hand-tilt it, it shuts off.  The
    range and high-pressure screws are both rather low.  But if I turn
    the high-pressure screw all the way down, with a fair head of steam
    (the relief valve in the basement is hissing and some of the upstairs
    pipes are dripping), it still does nothing.  I suspect the tube
    going from the mercury switch down to the low-water cutoff device
    is not too clear.  The mercury switch never tilts at all.
    
    But the plumber says, "don't worry, be happy".  He doesn't think
    it's a problem.  I hope he's right.
          fred

>    But the plumber says, "don't worry, be happy".  He doesn't think
>    it's a problem.  I hope he's right.

Just to appease your curiosity why not get a gauge and just check it at 
different times for a while.  A 0-20 psi or so should be pretty cheap.  
Then you'd know if you could don't worry, be happy.  At the very least I'd 
give my high pressure safety release valve a quick tug to make sure it 
works.

Happy heating,
Craig

    Did I forget to mention that the furnace man, doing the summer
    cleanout, said that the high pressure release valve is kaput? He
    too said something like, "don't worry, be happy".
    
    I think next year I'll have him clean out the little pipe going
    to the pressure switch.  The old pressure valve does show a couple
    of pounds of movement, from 18 to 20-21, provided I tap it a few
    times.  And I've just tried a _third_ steam relief valve on one
    of my radiators, and it _too_ can't take the pressure at that one
    spot and tends to drip onto the well-rotted hardwood floor beneath
    it.
    
    Other than that, the old steam system works fine.  (I took off the
    hot water gizmo last week, though, and now have gas hw.)
         fred

I just purchased an 80 year old house in Nashua.
It is a 2 family with 2 floors and about 3000 square ft. in total.
It is heated by steam with 2 boilers.  The upstairs is heated by gas 
and the downstairs is heated by oil.  

I just moved in last Friday just in time for the Arctic air wave to
hit.  The problem I have is that the previous owner removed the asbestos 
insulation around both boilers and all the steam pipes.
So right now there is no insulation around the boilers nor the pipes.  
The cellar has been quite warm since I've moved in so I figure my heat bill 
will get real high if I don't do something pretty quick.  The boilers are 
about 50 years old apiece but they both run fine.  
The efficiency of the oil boiler according to the test done
last June was about 79%.   The efficiency of the gas boiler is also
somewhere in the 70s% according to the previous owner.
The water is heated by gas and the total gas bill last year for hot water
and the second floor was about $750.   The oil bill for the first floor was 
about $900.  The house also has blown in insulation in the wall and attic
and most of the original windows have been replaced.

I figured I would just insulate the boilers and the pipes.  But then I had one
contracter from Asbestos Removal Services in Worcester come by and he gave 
me a $2900 quote which was about $2000 more than I expected.   I also talked
to Owens Insulation.  I am going to talk to other contracters if I can find any.
I also may look at doing it myself.

Is it worth replacing the boilers? 
If so should I replace the boilers with one or two boilers?
If I replace with only one boiler one can I zone the heat easily (I was told
that it is a single return system)?

Or should I just go with the insulation?
What would be a fair price to expect to pay for insulation?
Am I better off doing the insulation totally by a contractor or can I do
part of it myself?
Do I need to insulate the pipes if I either keep the old systems or get a new 
heating system?
Anyone know of any good contracters that I can contact?

				thanks,
				Bob

Why would you have an asbestos removal company insulate you pipes??? I have
a 1 family cape with steam heat that I insulated the pipes on for around $250.00
You can buy 1 inch thick fiberglass insulation that goes around those fat 
pipes. They come several feet long and spilt down the middle the long ways. 
You split it apart, slip over the pipe. The edge has glue which tapes it closed.
Depending on the thickness of the pipes it runs about $2-4 per section.
There's a place in Framingham Ma. (Route 135)  that carries the stuff and has
good prices. Dont' use the foamy-spongy stuff. It can't tolerate the heat from 
steam.

The pipes you can do yourself. It made a BIG difference in my basement. It
was always warm down there. After insulating the pipes it became much cooler. 
I use the basement for storage. Insulating the boiler I don't knwo about. I 
had my old one replaced. 

>>>If so should I replace the boilers with one or two boilers?
2 family houses with seperate utilities are worth more.

>>>If I replace with only one boiler one can I zone the heat easily (I was told
>>>that it is a single return system)?
I dont thick you'll have much luck zoning steam heat.

Call you oil or gas company for some ideas.

    The bottom half of my son's house if heated by an old boiler. Steam
    heat by oil. His water temperature is so hot coming out of his sink
    that you can easily get burned. His setting at the boiler is 180.
    Is this the right setting? If he turns it down will it take longer
    to heat the house? He is also trying to conserve by shutting of a few
    radiators that are not needed. Does this really save on fuel?
    The house is old and water is by a well. 

re -.1: 

>    heat by oil. His water temperature is so hot coming out of his sink
>    that you can easily get burned. His setting at the boiler is 180.

the setting you are referring to is the hot water setting but in the winter 
when the boiler is working hard to make heat, that on/off control will not 
be what's controling the boiler, the house thermostat is.  consequently, 
the hot water will be hot enough to scald you.  what's needed is a hot 
water tempering valve which mixes in some cold water based on the current 
temp of the hot water.  i did this.  problem is one doesn't cut it, it
helped but the water was still too hot.  they can be stacked up in series
but i never bothered. 


>    Is this the right setting? If he turns it down will it take longer
>    to heat the house? 

180 is too hot, even in the summer.  140 is more common but still too hot 
according to some people.  it won't take longer to heat the house because 
this control only turns on the boiler if it is off due to the house not 
requiring heat.


>                  He is also trying to conserve by shutting of a few
>    radiators that are not needed. Does this really save on fuel?

most likely, yes.  i shut off the radiators in the upstairs completely.  it 
was quite cold up there; about 60 or less and colder in the rooms with the 
doors shut.  however, if you shut off the rads in the room with thermostat 
it will call for heat forever and the poor boiler will never go off.  in 
the middle is the situation where by shutting off a radiator or two just 
causes the same area to be heated by less radiators - this is probably a 
wasted effort, less comfortable, and even more costly.

one thing he might check that can save fuel is the high pressure cutoff 
control.  what it does is that if it's real cold out and the boiler is 
running for long periods of time then it will cut off the flame when there 
is, say, 5 pounds of pressure.  there is no reason to burn fuel when the 
boiler is that pumped up, it can run the radiators with the flame off.  
when the pressure drops it will cut back on.  this is different from the 
high pressure relief valve which is for safety and is set about 15 pounds.  
in any case, in many old houses neither work, which is not good.

i'm making some assumptions here, hope i was right,
craig

       Just because you set the thermostat on your tankless to 1** degrees
    doesn't mean that is the temp. you get out of your faucet. That
    is the temp of the water that enters the mixer. On newer boilers
    there is another adjustment for the mix. Feel your input pipe to
    the mixer, it should be too hot to touch. Next feel your output
    to the system, it should be 'touchable'. If the output is too hot
    or not hot enough you just adjust it for what you'd like.
                                      Denny

    Well, another year...more banging out of the one radiator in the
    baby's room.  (see .13)  I finally got heat to the radiator.  I've
    replaced the valve, and everything was fine until it started banging.
    I've tilted the radiator back, to allow the water to drain toward
    the boiler.  This is where (I suspect) the problem is.  
    
    The pipe comes through the floor in the corner, elbows off, and
    goes to the radiator.  The problem is that in comes through the
    floor in a "kneewall closet" and has a run of about 6 or 7 feet
    before it hits the radiator.  I can tilt the radiator, but I can't
    tilt a 7 foot run of cast iron pipe.  I suspect the water is draining
    from the radiator, but sitting in the pipe, thus, the banging.
    
    Short of knocking out the wall of the closet and moving the radiator
    6 1/2 feet closer to the pipe entrance, what's next?
    
    __________________OUTSIDE WALL________________
    |               |
    |               |      __________
    |----PIPE-------|------|RADIATOR|
    |               |      ----------
    O               |
    U   CRAWL       |
    T     SPACE     | <-----------------Wall in room
    S.                                             
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    W
    A
    L
    L
    

I just bought a new home, and had a new boiler for my steam radiators put in, 
and have a question:

How much water loss is reasonable? I know that when I hear steam hissing, 
that's water eascaping from the system, so some is expected, but too much 
means a leak somewhere. So how much is reasonable? The answer to the question
may require a piece of information I don't have: the capacity of the boiler.
How do I find out how much water is in the system?

    There are already a bunch of notes on steam heat, so this may get
    write-locked soon. The other notes discuss the 'sounds' made by the
    radiators when the valves are working properly, etc. If you're
    not used to steam heat, you might want to check the other notes.
    
    I'm very careful with the boiler because I don't want it to run
    dry. Here are the 'rules of thumb' I use:
    
    	1. In the winter check and feed the boilder once a day (this
    	   past December, it sometimes needed to be fed twice a day.
    
    	2. Turn down the heat for about 10 minutes (so that the boiler is
    	   off) before feeding in more water. Adding cold water to a hot
    	   boiler can cause it to crack.
    
    	3. Wait a few minutes before turning the heat back up - for the
    	   same reason.
    
    	4. I have an automatic water feed, but try to feed the boiler
    	   before the automatic feed does it. The automatic feed doesn't
           care if the boiler's hot and the water's cold - nor does it
           measure the amount of water well - sometimes it feed too much
           and sometimes not enough.
    
    The boiler seems to work most efficiently when the water level is
    correct, so frequent checking seems to also give better heat. If I
    have a bad radiator nozzel, it seems that I loose water twice as fast
    as when things are working properly. (Nozzels cost about $6 and take
    1 minutes to install.)
    
    Hope this helps.

    Re -.1
    
    Are you saying that the automatic feed is not worth installing, if you
    don't already have one?  I have been thinking of having one installed.
    
    Also, is this a DIYer?
    
    I have been struggling with a couple of leaking radiators.  What a
    pain!
    
    Ed..
    

       My boiler is 3 years old, it's a Weil-McLain and has a 5 gallon
    capacity. With the cold weather last month I only had to add water
    every 2-3 days. I don't turn my temp down to add, I just add real
    slow and in 'spurts',turn the handle a couple seconds at a time,
    this is how the guy who installed it told me to do it.
                                               Denny

    Hmmmm. Mine's also a Weil-McLain - with the same capacity. Either
    your steam system is tighter than mine or your house is -- maybe
    both. I guess I'll check things out a bit over the weekend.
    
    As for the automatic water feed... I use it only as a backup. If
    I'm away, it'll keep water in the boiler. But generally speaking,
    I don't trust it.

       I'd say neither my system or house are especially 'tight' the
    place is 60+ years old and so is the system.
                                              Denny

If you have a cracked radiator you can try fixing it by steel brushing and/or
sanding the cracked area clean residue well and then epoxy the crack. Make sure
the area is dry. Use the epoxy that you mix the 2 tubes together. Its worked 
for 2 of my radiators.

	I fixed a small hole in a radiator by simply covering it with 
	aluminum tape.  Still holding in its third heating season!

    
    Having to add water daily, or even every 2-3 days does not sound
    normal to me.  I have an old boiler that was converted from coal
    to oil in 1938.  It is connected to a one-pipe steam system.  I
    typically have to add water once a month.
    
    I would say the folks who have to add water every few days, have
    cracked radiators, leaky packing in the valves on each radiator,
    or defective vents.
    
    
    Mark
    

       What's the capacity of that 1938 boiler? The one I had removed
    3 years ago held 40+ gallons. I would hope you wouldn't have to
    add much water. Mine holds 5 and I add maybe every 7-10 days during
    normal winter weather. And what I add is not much at all.
                                    /denny

    Well, this note got me curious about how 'tight' my steam system
    was, so I did some investigating in the cellar. I fought the
    insulation, ignored the asbestos, stomped the spiders, etc, but
    *did* find a leak. One of the main pipes had a leak at a very-much-
    out-of-the-way elbow.
    
    A steamfitter quoted me $400 and a full day to fix. I had my regular
    plumber do the fix and he was done in an hour (including a trip to
    the hardware store) and charged only $75. Since then, my water level
    has remained just about constant! I haven't had to add water for
    about a week.
    
    And to think I've had the house for 6 years and didn't know how bad the
    leak was. Thanks!

I recently had some work done on my Steam furnance. It didn't have a pressure
release valve, so one was installed. The last couple of weeks I've noticed some
water on the floor. I finally tracked ti down to this valve. 

My questions are should this valve release water 2 or 3 time a week under normal
operation? Is this a sign of a problem, like a defective valve for too much 
pressure in the system. Is it possible for me to make an adjustment or should I 
call the heating company and have them fix it (hopefully at their cost).

	thanks
	
		-bob

    If you have an auto-fill valve, it could be sort of stuck between
    auto-fill (limited water with limited pressure) and quick-fill.
    The valve in quick-fill would overfeed the system and blast out
    the pressure release until you stopped the loading.  If the supply
    aint the problem, could be that the pressure release is set too
    low; they come with instructions and are adjustable.
    
    In general, the pressure valve shouldn't release water under normal
    operation.
    

	Thanks for your quick reply. Since I don't have an auto-fill system
the later must be the case. I don't have any instructions on the pressure value
so I'll call the heating company and find out.

	-bob

    Another potential problem is condensing steam in the radiators (with
    talent, you can completely fill them).  Symptom:  the radiator stays
    annoyingly cold (or partially, like one end).  One result (in addition
    to cold) is the boiler is empty cuz the water's in the radiator. Cause:
    haven't really figured it out for sure, but plugged valves/slash vents
    seemed to be it.  No longer a problem and it's days or weeks between
    watering now (in an old, old system that could probably use an
    overhaul).
    

>I recently had some work done on my Steam furnance. It didn't have a pressure
>release valve, so one was installed. The last couple of weeks I've noticed some
>water on the floor. I finally tracked ti down to this valve. 

     Pressure in a steam system is caused by steam, not by water.  If you 
had autofill that was letting too much water in, it would be coming out of 
the steam valve of the lowest radiator in the system, and a sensor near
your glass sight tube would detect too much water and wouldn't let the 
burner come on.  Ergo, autofill can't be the problem.

    
    RE: .12
    
    There are a few ways water can build up in a radiator and stay there.
    
    1.  The return lines are heavily clogged with rust, so water takes
    	a very long time to return to the boiler.  You'll probably
        also notice lots of banging (water hammers).
    
    2.  The valve to the radiator is shut off, but it doesn't completely
        hold back the steam (especially under high pressure).  When
        the steam condenses it stays in the water since the valve is
        shut off.
    
    3.  The radiator is not tilted toward the valve or is tilted in
        the wrong direction.  Some water collects in one end of the
        radiator, and blocks/cools some of the steam.
    
    If the situation is severe enough you may hear steam bubbling
    through the water in the radiator.  It may even push water out
    the air vent.
    
    -tm
    

    Here's some information on how paint color affects radiator efficiency.
    It's from The Old House Journal, Sept/Oct 1988:

	Bronzing reigned unchallenged as a radiator paint until the 1920s,
	when laboratory research took a serious look at heating efficiency.
	Tests at the University of Illinois and other engineering centers
	confirmed that radiators heat through two modes: _convection_,
	warming the air that circulates around the radiator, and _radiation_,
	the direct emission of heat energy as waves.  Radiator paint, it
	turned out, had no effect on convection, but could seriously
	influence radiation.  After testing many finishes on steam systems,
	some of the conclusions were:

	* Radiation was only affected by the _last_ coat of paint put on
	a radiator.

	* For practical purposes, oil paints offered the same (sometimes
	even more) heat transmission as an unpainted radiator surface.

	* The oil paints tested all gave practically the same results,
	regardless of their color.

	* Metal bronze paints (and galvanizing) reduced heat transmission,
	typically from 7.4 to 9.2 percent.

	The tests have been repeated and refined over the years, but the
	results remain essentially the same.

	...

	Black has a slight advantage over other colors, and a flat-finish
	surface radiates better than a shiny one.

    I'm in the process of having some radiator covers made for me by a
    family member to help keep my toddler from burning himself on those
    giant steam radiators of mine.  One note mentions a metal grate on a
    wooden frame, others mention they are made completely of metal.  Which
    would be the best bet in terms of safety, heat efficiency, and price?
    I know I can't have all three in one design, but some discussion would
    help me determine the most appropriate design.  I've also seen mention
    of purchasing the metal grate at Channel.  Don't know of a Channel
    store in my area (Worcester, MA), so a suggestion as to where to
    purchase the materials would also be helpful.
    
    Sarah
    

We discovered that after our son touched the radiator once and became familiar
with the word 'hot' he kept his distance....

I agree, however, that covers for them would ease the mind.

Dave

RE: .13

	I think I would go with the wood frame, metal screen approach. Its
	to build and relatively cheap. My guess about $15 max each. You can
	get the wood at any lumber store and the grates I have seen at Spags.
	They would be in the old store in the front (tool section) The type of
	screen/grates I am thinking of looks like several lines in different
	directions but they would make 1/4" larger holes in them. It is a
	solid piece but stamped with that pattern. Call me if you didn't
	understand my description 293-5489.
	

	I have not made any myself but have lived in an apartment that had
	them.

				Bill

re: .-2  Amazing how one touch was all it took.  I kind of like the open
radiator concept.  After that, we didn't need to nag about the stove or the
fireplace, he understood the concept of hot quite nicely.  I would only be
concerned if my radiator was situated near a bed or the bottom of a stair
or someplace where the toddler could fall against it and not get off quickly.
Steam radiators do get plenty hot but not hot enough to cause a burn if a 
toddler reaches out to touch it.  You'd have to fall on it or lay against it
to cook yourself.

-Bob

    
    My house is about 70 years old and has a steam heating system.
    Over the summer I noticed that the boiler was leaking and the
    system was not running at all.  I called my oil company and
    they said I had a small leak and they could fix it with boiler
    sealer.  So they mixed some grey powder with bot water and
    put it into the boiler.  The grey powder is manufactured
    by a company called Silver King.  After he put the mixture in
    he had to run the system for some time to get itup to pressure.
    
    About a week later it got cold and we ran the system and a horrible
    smell came out of the radiators.  The oil company drained the
    system and that didn't seem to help anything.  I called the
    manufacturer who said that the main ingredient of the sealer
    is linseed meal and that sometimes when it mixes with dirty
    boiler water it ferments.  He recommended oil of wintergreen in the
    boiler to mask the smell.  I told him that I didn't want my house
    smelling of wintergreen either so he recommended a cleaner called
    hydronic #5.  We are now on our third application of Hydronic #5.
    The smell seems to be less, but it is still very much in the house
    
    
    Has anyone had a similar experience?  and how did you get rid of it?
    I've gone through some considerable amount of oil running the system
    with the windows open through these cleanings.  But mostly I wnat
    to get rid of the smell.
    
    Thank you for any help.
    
    Sue
    

   This note can serve as kind of a "sister note" to Note 2770, which is
  entitled, "DYI Furnace Relpacement"

    
    I have a very old steam boiler I would like to replace.  Its one of those
  old coal fired boilers that was converted to oil at some point, then converted
  to natural gas, with a gas conversion burner.   It's very inefficient, and 
  doesn't seem to heat up the apartment too well. (according to my tenant, they
  are cold in the winter, especially in those cold snaps we get here in NE.)
  Not mention, you never know when the thing will quit.

    I've gotten 3 quotes so far, ranging from $2700 to $2950 to replace it.
  This does not include removal of the old boiler, which I plan to leave right
  where it sits (it's not bothering anybody) to save money.  I'll install the
  new boiler near the old one, and have the pipes extended to the new location.

    I've priced steam boilers-  I need about 125K BTU boiler - they run around
  $1200.  It seems to me that $1500 to $1750 for labor and materials is quite
  excessive (they all quote 1 day installation)

   Therefore, I'm looking into DIY for this project.  Has anyone ever replaced
  a steam boiler?  If so, please enter and tips, hints or advice on steam
  boiler replacement here.

   Thanks

    Steve

    One thought comes to mind: is there going to be any pipe threading
    involved?  You say "steam boiler" so I assume it needs iron pipe
    connections, in which you'll need some way of cutting and threading
    large-diameter (1.5"? 2"?) iron pipe, probably...and some big
    wrenches to put the whole thing together with.  All that stuff
    is rentable, but it's something to think about.
    
    

re .1

 Yes, I expect that some threading of pipes would be necessary.  Most of the
 contractors have told they will not attempt to re-thread an 80 year old pipe.
 Instead, they'll go back to the closest union or elbow, and tie a new pipe 
 in there.  But, somehow, the new piping (black iron pipe) has to connect to
 the old pipe.  Any mysteries about this?  As long as you can unscrew the old
 pipe/union from the attached old fitting, the new pipe should go right into it.
 The trick would be to take a union apart that has been closed tight for 80 
 years, without having to cut into it.

   Steve

    Hello All,
    
    I have steam radiators in my house and I put pans of water on top of
    them to add moisture to the air.  I've been told that there are some
    kind of "bag" that you can hang off the radiator & fill with water
    instead of refilling the pans on top daily and the "bag" gets the full
    force of all of the heat lengthwise.  Does anyone know what I'm talking
    about & if so where I might find them?
    
    I've looked in note 1111 for this, checked out note 2633 about steam
    radiators but found nothing there that could answer my question.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Sandy

    I have seen (and owned) some plastic trays that hang on the backside 
    of a seam radiator.  The tray (is about 2-3 inches wide, 12 inches long
    and 12 inches deep and hangs by 2 hangers to the radiator.  I've seen
    older models made of metal.  The metal ones conduct heat from the
    radiator better and hence "more" efficient in causing the water to
    evaporate.  The plastic ones have a corragated side to made better
    contact with the fins of the radiator but the plastic is not a great
    conductor of heat.
    
    I recommend you go with a sonic vaporizors  for humidity rather than
    the trays.  You might find the trays at Spags or some large hardware
    stores.  The trays don't hold alot of water and have to be refilled
    often; they are not as effective as other
    
    Hope I answered your question.
    
    Ed
    
    

I remember looking into the radiator-bag option years ago. They don't hold 
much water and they do need to be refilled often. 

But think X2 about the sonic humidifiers. They also don't hold much water 
and they have been implicated in MANY respiratory problems. 


We use a 10-12 gallon humidifier we got at Sears [or Lechmere's?] years ago. 
It gets washed and refilled about every ten days. Each time we refill it, 
we wash the slime and gradoo that collects in the water bucket and add a bit 
of bleach to disinfect the new water for the coming week. 

The humidifer has made a HUGE difference in the comfort of our noses during 
the cold winter months.

Hope this helps!
/Pfc

    re .-1
    
    HOw much bleach do you use in the water in your humidifier?  I was
    thinking of doing this, but didn't know how much I'd need to make it
    effective (i.e. kill the "legionaires' disease germs) but smell like a
    swimming pool!

    re: .0
    
    I recently shopped around for the galvanized metal trays that hang off
    the side of radiators - with no success.  I tried Paul's Hardware in
    Leominster, Spag's, Fitchburg Plumbing & Heating...  One lead I didn't
    follow up on was to look in "Yankee Magazine"; I'm told they might run
    an ad for the trays.  To avoid rusting metal trays on top of my
    radiators, I bought used Corning casserole dishes at a local Salvation
    Army Thrift store for $2-4.00 each.  Cleaned up, they look like new!
    And I devised my own clamps to secure them in place, avoiding breakage.
    I used to use an ultrasonic humidifier, but didn't like the white dust
    & electric bills.
    
    /dlw

re .5:

>    I used to use an ultrasonic humidifier, but didn't like the white dust
>    & electric bills.

White dust, OK.  Electric bills?  How many watts does an ultrasonic
humidifier use?

re .5:

>    I used to use an ultrasonic humidifier, but didn't like the white dust
>    & electric bills.

For white dust, try using distilled or deionized water.  Rainwater might work,
too.

I doubt those things use more than 50-100 watts, so I don't think they
contribute much to the electric bill.  Check the UL label on it to see how
many watts it uses.

-Mike

    You can also get filters which help reduce the white dust problem.  You
    just run the tap water through the filter and into the humidifier
    resevoir.

    
     Or you can use distilled water which has no minerals to
    make white dust from albeit more expensive to use.

    I can't really say how much the humidifier affected my electric bill,
    but with Sterling, MA's high rates, you look for *every* opportunity to
    reduce your usage of eletricity...  8^)

    Question on re-packing the valves with steam heat.  It's a one pipe
    system, no problems, heats fine, works fine, etc.  There's one
    radiator where some steam is being released through the valve just
    before the radiator.  The radiator still gets hot, it's just starting
    to peel the wallpaper above the valve.  How easy/simple is it to repack
    the valve?  Is it a matter of taking it apart, cleaning and repacking
    with plumber's putty?  Is there a special packing putty to use?  Or is
    it easier to spend $20 and replace the valve?
    
     

    Maybe someone else can comment more authoratively than me...
    
    I assume that you're talking about the valve stem packing, due to
    leakage around the valve stem, ie: the shaft the valve handle is
    attached to.  In which case you get at the hardware store a graphite
    impregnated "string" (should be known as valve packing).
    
    You open up the top of valve, push up the nut/cover and wind about a 
    turn or two of this stuff around the stem, (whatever fits), then
    push the valve nut/cover back down and tighten.   You want to fill the
    space above the valve itself with enough of this stuff that it
    compresses and seals the valve stem.
    
    	Dave.

    Plumber's putty for packing?!?  No, what you want, probably, is graphited 
    packing. It looks like string impregnated with graphite.  Or there may
    be something more up-to-date, I'm not sure.  Ask at a real plumbing
    supply place, they should know.  You should be able to loosen the
    packing nut on the valve stem, slide it up, add more packing, and
    retighten.  You might get away with just tightening the packing nut.
    (Assuming there *is* a packing nut on the valve stem....)
    
    I'm assuming the leak is around the valve stem; re-reading your note,
    I see that you don't specify; if the leak is around the joint where
    the valve screws onto the feed pipe or onto the radiator, then you
    may or may not have a problem.  The joint (at least the one between
    valve and radiator) is typically a sort-of union fitting; two smooth 
    surfaces fit together and a threaded collar pulls them tightly together 
    to produce a tight joint.  If the leak is there, you may have a problem
    if the supposed-to-be-smooth surfaces aren't.  Pipe dope *might* help,
    but the joint is not designed to be sealed that way.  Maybe just
    tightening the collar will help.
    
    The valve is typically screwed onto the supply pipe with a tapered
    pipe thread, and if that is where the leak is, pipe dope would be
    the thing to use for sealing.
    

    Sorry for the confusion...the leak is at the valve stem, not the actual
    valve.  I'll try the packing "string" this week.  Thanx.
    

I have had to repack quite a few valves in my house
this year and I have had mixed sucess with the graphite
impregnated string.

Then I tried what look like rubber washers but they
are sold as valve packing material. I bought a 'variety'
pack that had quite a few different sizes, I think 
I got them at Home Depot.  They are easier to use
than the string and more effective as well.  I repacked
a steam valve using one and it has worked fine.


Robert

    
    I AM PLANNING TO REMOVE A RADIATOR (STEAM HEAT system)
    I've never done this and just want to make sure there are no
    hidden problems.
    I plan to just turn off the escape valve on the side of the
    radiator,  then disconnect the radiator and cap the pipe
    which comes up through the floor.
    I plan to buy a cap at a heating supply store.
    Does this sound like a good plan?
    >Is any bleeding of the system necessary?  
    >Do I need to coat or seal the screw on- cap ( I imagine it will
    be a screw on).
    Any other suggestions will be helpful.
    
    I am doing this so I can finish off the wall behind the radiator.
    I plan to reconnect this radiator when I am finished.
    
    Carol

    Start working on those biceps.  Those pipe fittings are a bear to
    disconnect and those radiators are heavy.

	If you don't need to get the radiator totally out of the way (ie
just paint or paper behind it) you could try pivioting it at a right angle
to the wall.  I have done this by myself by using a 2x4 and a block as a
lever to lift one end at a time, then inserting "sliders" (plastic coffee
can lids) under the feet.  Then moving the end away from the valve about the
supply/return pipe.  A caution not to force things that are stuck, plumbers
quickly remove brittle fittings by smashing them between two sledge hamers.

	Rick

    Couple of things......the radiator shut off valve should be all you
    need. SHouldn't have to cap it too.
    
    Use *TWO* wrenches on the coupling to remove the radiator. One to push,
    the other to pull.
    
    Start early in the morning for a good workout.
    
    Marc H.

    The fitting between the shutoff valve and the radiator will be a
    union, so you'll just have to unscrew the collar and the radiator
    will be free to move.  You shouldn't have to cap the pipe, assuming
    the shutoff valve really shuts off 100%.  If it doesn't, you may
    have problems finding a cap because it needs to be 1/2 a union
    fitting to fit the valve, then a cap to close it off.  I think I'd
    just wait for a tolearably warm day (i.e. not below freezing), shut
    down the heat, disconnect the radiator and slide it out enough to
    paint behind it, then slide it back and reconnect.  Or, if the valve
    does shut off 100%, you can just shut it off and keep the heat on
    in the rest of the house.
    With steam heat, there shouldn't be anything in the radiator unless
    the heat is actually on, except perhaps for a little bit of water
    in the bottom of the radiator that doesn't drain completely.
    

>    With steam heat, there shouldn't be anything in the radiator unless
>    the heat is actually on, except perhaps for a little bit of water
>    in the bottom of the radiator that doesn't drain completely.
    
Have some sort of drip-catching container handy (I've used a pie plate) 
to catch this little bit of water.  In our radiators, it's a non-trivial
amount and it's also very dirty with the sediment that eventually returns
to the boiler and has to be drained out periodically.

After you disconnect the union, you'll want to swing the radiator union end
out and over the pie plate, then tilt up the other end to let all the junk
drain out.

-Chris

Ditto the comment about the union and the valve.  If its an old system, figure
on the valve leaking and plan on not finding the fitting you need to couple the
union closed.  The best cheapest/simplest was the one that said to crank up the
heat and get the house toasty and then just shut off the furnace, do your work
quickly and reconnect the radiator.  

Want to hear a horror story?  My dad tells how back in the 30s a neighbor pulled
a similiar stunt in the nursery and they very nearly parboiled their baby.  So
my safety plan when I did this was to get a  large pipe clamp and an old rubber
inner tube and I covered the open pipe and clamped it down.  As I removed an
entire steam system one radiator at a time over a period of a month or so, I
can vouch for the effectiveness of this technique.  Steam systems operate under
very low pressure, on the order of 4 lbs so the rubber and clamp do quite
nicely. 

-Bob

    THANKS FOR THE RUBBER INNER TUBE IDEA.
    I AM HANGING A NEW WALL AND HAVE TO TAPE THE JOINTS SO THIS
    IS NOT A ONE DAY JOB.  MY HOUSE IS ABOUT 80 YEARS OLD, THE
    GAS FIRED BOILER IS ABOUT 14 YEARS OLD, BUT I CAN IMAGINE THE
    DIRT THAT IS IN THIS RADIATOR......
    WILL TRY TO GET HELP TO MOVE IT, I DO WORK OUT, BUT DONT WANT
    TO STRAIN MY BACK, TRYING TO MOVE THIS SUCKER MYSELF.
    SATURDAY SHOULD BE FUN!  

Ouch!  Yes, you can lift one end and "walk" them around but a child can move
them with a fulcrum and lever.  I used a 4 foot 2x4 and a a couple of scraps
of lumber for a fulcrum and I was able to lift and swing one that weighed in
at the scrap yard at near 700 lbs.  Fortunately it was on the first floor and
it was all down hill to the pickup truck from there.  We never lifted it.
Just levered it, got rollers under it and slid and dragged it down a ramp.

    
                                -< Physics 101 >-
    
    Properties of materials 101 - a few taps with a 2-lb hammer
    and a cast iron radiator is reduced to n manageable chunks
    in a second :)
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    WEll the radiator is moved.  No big problem, only took one wrench
    and it still sits in the middle of the room while i put in the
    new wall.  No drips or anything. Thanks for all your input.
    After this job is done, (in next two weekends) might need ideas
    for redoing the bathroom!
    Carol

    We've developed a problem with our boiler running out of water very
    quickly.  When it's cold we have to go down and fill the boiler every
    couple of hours.  I can't figure out where it's leaking.  There's no
    sign of any water leaking around the furnace, so I assume it must be
    venting steam somewhere.  How can I figure out where the problem is?
    

If you can't find a leak so large that it is signicant every couple of hours,
the only thing I can think is that the leak is into the combustion chamber 
and the vapor is going up the stack.

Check for soggy walls/floors wherever the pipes travel between radiators.

How do you know it is low on water?  What are the symptoms?

Stan

    RE: .11 by XK120::SHURSKY 
    
>If you can't find a leak so large that it is signicant every couple of hours,
>the only thing I can think is that the leak is into the combustion chamber 
>and the vapor is going up the stack.

    Thanks.  I never thought of that.  This furnace was only put in six
    years ago.  We had to replace the old one.  What should I look for to
    deternmine if this is the cause?
    
>How do you know it is low on water?  What are the symptoms?
    
    Low water cutoff shuts down furnace when water down to 1/2" in glass. 
    This happens several times a day when it's real cold.  Between 6-11 p.m.
    I might have to fill it two or even three times.  Last night wasn't as
    bad because it wasn't quite as cold as last weekend.
    

	Do you have a steam system? Low water cutoffs are usually found on
	steam systems. Steam systems lose water all the time.  

	Possible causes: auto-fill not auto-filling or someone closed the 
	shut-off valve to the auto-fill. If it doesn't have a means of
	automatically filling it could have leaks like those mentioned
	in previous replies.

    A steam system should be basically closed; the water boils to
    steam, rises into the radiators, condenses, and runs back to
    the boiler.  It shouldn't lose a noticable amount of water.  If
    it does, something is wrong.  My parents have a steam system
    in their house; as I recall, my dad might have to top up the
    boiler water once a month, or less, and that is only a matter
    of an inch or two in the sight glass.
    I'll second the suggestion that the boiler may be leaking water 
    into the combustion chamber.  If that amount of water were going 
    anyplace else you'd almost certainly notice it.  You don't have
    steam blowing out around valve stems or anything, do you?
    

    RE: .14  by VERGA::WELLCOME 
    
    >I'll second the suggestion that the boiler may be leaking water 
    >into the combustion chamber.  If that amount of water were going 
    >anyplace else you'd almost certainly notice it.  You don't have
    >steam blowing out around valve stems or anything, do you?
    
    No, not that I can see.  How can I find out if it's leaking into the
    combustion chamber?
    
    This is not an autofeed system.
    

    I'm converting a porch to a new room and I'll need heat out there.
    It looks easy enough, because on the back side of a wall, there's
    an existing radiator.  I planned to go downstairs in the cellar, break the
    elbow to the existing radiator, replace it with a "T", reconnect the 
    existing radiator, then run a straight piece off the T, elbow, then up
    through the floor to a new radiator.  
    
    I asked the contractor who replaced the furnace 5 years ago if the
    furnace/system could handle another radiator, and he said that it
    wouldn't be a problem at all.  So, is it as easy as it sounds, or
    are there some watch-outs?  (The only thing I've heard is to smash 
    the existing elbow, because I'll never be able to get it off
    otherwise).
    

I must own one heck of a big pipe wrench cause I saw Vila hammering away at
somebody's pipe elbows and I figured I'd fare no better.  My ancient system
came apart and I've even got a box of elbows if you need some.  The reason I
did this was not pure masichism but because I replaced the system a few rooms
at a time as I brought a hydronic system on line.

As for gotchas, if its a one pipe steam system, then the pipe must drain 
by gravity back to the boiler or steam will condense, and water will fill the 
pipe and block further steam from rising.

    I have steam heat also.  I would like to add a radiator in my bathroom,
    There is a vertical pipe running through the bathroom to the upstairs
    bedroom radiator.  Is there any rule which says you can't put another
    radiator on the line?  Each of the radiators in my house are piped 
    seperately even if they could easily have been connected in series.

    What's the easiest way to clean dust, etc., from between the fins of
    the radiators?  (Short of compressed air, pressure washing, etc).  A
    long, narrow, heavy-bristled brush?  I imagine it would also increase
    the efficiency.
    
    

I assume you're talking about finned baseboard, which is not what the
base note is about.

I've used a non-woven cloth (such as Handi-Wipe) folded over a thin stick.
I've also heard of people spraying them with water (or maybe a water/alcohol
mixture) and catching the runoff.  I believe there is a discussion in
here somewhere about this.

				Steve

Steve,

They are radiators.  They stand about 3' high, 1' wide and have about 8 "fins"
each.  About halfway up or so, the fins are connected, and dust builds up here, 
especially...

A crude drawing: (front view):                        (side view):

   ---    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^                             ~~~~~~~~~~
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |
   36"    |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|<------ dust build-up        |--|--|--|
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |  
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |
    |     | | | | | | | |                             |  |  |  |
   ---

Either way, I imagine a narrow stick wrapped with a cloth like Handi-Wipe,
etc., would work.  Thanks.

    A good hardware store will sell you a radiator brush.

	When we lived in a vintage 1915 house in Pittsburgh, PA, we used a
	feather duster on the radiators. They make long skinny ones that are
	perfect for the job.

	Roy

Ah, I see.  Probably a brush designed for cleaning refrigerator coils would
do the trick.

				Steve

	Have just purchased a house with a single pipe oil fired steam heat 	
	system in the basement of a single floor ranch.  I have not been thru
	a winter yet, so I know nothing about how well it works.  Other than
	83% efficiency from some insepction report.

	what can I do about the following:

	1. Heat the basement -- I want to finish it off over half of the 
	24 x 38 basement.  With gravity return, how do I heat the basement --
	radiators up in the ceiling?  Fins on the steam pipes passing thru  
	the basement?

	2.  The pipes will be bare when we move in (current owner is having
	asbestos removed professionally) --  Will this be enough to get 
	heat into basement?  I may have	to insulate some of them --- I was 	
	planning on anyway.

	3.  Are there any more stylish type radiators available for steam heat
	(lower profile?)  Anybody have experience with them?

	4.  Similarly, how can I heat a kitchen which we want to just fill with
	cabinets, leaving virtually no free wall space for a vertical type 
	radiator?

	Thanks for the help


	Bob West
	

    How warm do you want to keep the basement?  My parent's basement
    used to be absolutely frigid in winter, but after they finished
    & insulated (2x4 wall against foundation with 3 1/2 inch fiberglass
    batts) it became quite usable.  Still chilly (sweater required) in
    winter but definitely usable.  This was without adding any additional
    heat, just whatever leaks away from the furnace & heating pipes.

We'd like it to be in the 60's --

It is going to be a rec room and an office.

Three walls are underground and one wall is exposed with door and windows.

We will frame and insulate walls.


--------

thx for the info

    Couldn't find this answer in regards to steam heat.
    
    My parents steam heat runs great for 3 hours then all the radiators
    located at the front of the house stop heating. Its like half of them.
    
    The second thing that happens is the boiler floods because water in the
    pipes drain back into a full boiler. 
    
    Plumbers have spent many hours on this and are not able to resolve.
    
    The confusing aspect is that when you first cut the system on it runs
    great for 3 hours heating the whole house.  All suggestions welcome 
     

>     My parents steam heat runs great for 3 hours then all the radiators
>     located at the front of the house stop heating. Its like half of them.

	I don't know much about steam heat, but could it be some pipes aren't
	pitched right so the condensed water returning to the boiler forms
	a "trap" preventing hot steam from then reaching that boiler?

>     The second thing that happens is the boiler floods because water in the
>     pipes drain back into a full boiler. 

	From what I've heard, in a steam system the boiler should *not*
	be full.  sounds like too much water in there, drain some out.
	I've also heard there are two types of systems for steam in regards
	to the water level in the boiler.  one is a manual system where
	you have to watch the level yourself and feed more water in when
	it needs it, and the other is an automatic system.  if you have
	the auto system, maybe the unit is malfuntioning?

    
       I don't have steam heat,  but I do have an old house.
       One of the bathrooms had a faucet that ran great for a little
       while and then bang! -  it'd stop running,  just shut itself
       off.
    
       The heat from the hotwater was causing some expansion in the
       valve and stopping the flow. 
    
       I wonder if the same type of problem might be happening with
       some of your valves.   
    
    /p

    If the boiler has autofeed for replacement water, I second the idea
    of looking at that to see if it's malfunctioning.  It sounds as though
    the boiler is filling up too much.
    
    When cold, the water in the boiler should be at a level about the
    middle of the sight glass, or slightly above.  It should NOT be
    trying to maintain that level as the water is boiled off as steam;
    in theory, there's enough water in the system so the pipes and
    radiators can fill with steam and still leave enough water in the
    boiler for safety.  Then when the radiators cool and the steam
    condenses and the water drains back, the level is back where it
    started.

    and... with a single ended steam system (most are) you want all of
    the pipeing and radiators to "slant" so that condensed steam drains
    back to the boiler without "puddling" in long runs or at the radiator
    valve.  The will cause bubbles in the pipes and make a loud hammering
    racket.   It's not unusual to put shims under the legs of one end of
    the radiator to enhance drainage.
    
    	Dave.

    Here's my $.02 on Steam heat...
    
    The flooding may be due to a leaky water feed valve.  Check the valve
    that fills the boiler, if you have a manual system, make sure it is
    closed.  If you have an automatic feed, this is a solenoid activated
    water valve from the boiler, you might have a leak in the solenoid
    valve.  The valve might have some something caught on the valve seat
    or you might have a bad valve. It's difficult to quickly tell if
    this is the problem other than to check the height of the water level
    over time (with the boiler off).  You might want to shut the main feed
    valve-manual one (for a short period, if you have the electric valve)
    to see if the flooding problem goes away.  You might have a defective
    water level sensor in the boiler which is turning on to add more water
    than is needed.
    
    As for the radiators stopping, my first guess is to check the venting
    valves on the radiators.  Are these valves working properly?  With the
    flooding problem, my guess is that too much water from the boiler, after
    3 hours, is getting into the line and blocking off the steam to the front 
    radiators.  I've seen a problem where too much water (due to a leaky
    auto feed valve) filled a radiator and caused a small flood by the
    radiator (and shut down the boiler).  
    
    Do you drain your boiler and clean out the boiler water level switch
    periodically.  How old is the water level guage?  This could also be the
    problem.
    
    Good luck
    
    Ed

	Also, if there is a tankless hot water heater in the furnace,
there could be a leak into the boiler from the heater.  That happened to
a friend of mine a few years back...

	Dick

    Any place around the Littleton/Groton area that sandblasts radiators?
    I saw the previous notes of the place in Southbridge but was hoping
    there was someplace closer to home.  Thanks.

    I think there might be a radiator place on South Street in 
    Hudson, MA.  Don't know the name.  Anyone???

I have single-pipe steam heat in an 85-year-old house. The cast-iron radiator in
the 40's vintage addition over the garage has a small leak in the bottom. I
removed it (managed not to kill myself - those things are *heavy*!), flipped it
up, and tried using metal epoxy compound to fix it. However, I couldn't actually
see a hole, even after some light filing, so I guess I missed the spot (probably
just a pinhole), because it still leaks. 

Is it worth trying to repair this radiator? Is this a practical DIY project?
What am I doing wrong? If I were to replace it, should I get a new cast-iron
radiator, or a new copper/fin unit? What do these things cost and where do you
get them? This is probably the longest steam run in the house from the furnace,
and when the furnace is not running heavily, this spot frequently does not heat
well.

My SWAG is that it's impossible to fix, that you should replace it with a
similar radiator, and that they're available at little or no cost from
people who are updating their systems.  I've been on both ends of a
cast iron radiator transaction.  When we replaced the one in our kitchen
with a kickspace unit, it took several years of advertising in notesfiles
to get rid it (for free).  When a radiator froze and blew up, our plumber
found one somewhere for money (which was paid by insurance).

    You can buy a new radiator...but you don't want to.  They are
    more money than you would believe.  Used, however, they can be
    free or very cheap.  I got some that way, and they're fine.
    
    To really fix the one you have, you'd probably have to take it 
    apart and recaulk the joints using, I think, red lead.  Or you
    could give the epoxy another try.  The pressure is very low - only
    a few psi - so it doesn't have to hold much.  More a problem may
    be the large temperature swings causing expansion/contraction. 
    In any case, if you try the epoxy again, make sure you have a
    *really* clean surface, obtained with a wire brush on a drill or
    similar.
    
    Do you have a compressor, or access to one?  You might be able to
    presurize the radiator (low pressure!) and find the leak with some
    soapy water.  Even a bicycle pump might work, if you can figure out
    some way to block up the inlet/outlet and feed the pressure in 
    through the little hole where the steam vent screws on, or something
    like that.

    One of my cast-iron radiators began leaking after I had it sandblasted
    and repainted. The leak wasn't on a seam, but in a flat open area on
    one of the chambers. Apparently there was a void in the metal casting. 
    
    The guy that did the sandblasting came up with this solution: he drilled 
    out the hole to a quarter-inch diameter, tapped it with threads, and
    screwed in a brass plug. It's been steam tight for 4 or more years. 
    
    He was *very* careful when drilling and tapping the hole -- cast iron
    is brittle stuff. 
    
    Joe 

    I've got 5 cast-iron steam radiators from a heating renovation done
    last year.  Anyone is welcome to them for free if you pick them up.
    Send me mail if you are interested..I have the dimensions.
    The radiators are in Upton, MA ....

    
    BWHITE, I was unable to send mail to you.
    
    The one I have that is leaking is rather large, about 4 ft long by 24
    (???) inches tall, with a single steam fitting. I don't know the
    fitting size, but I would guess it is about 1.5 inch. The overall
    dimensions are not critical since this is just a study over the garage.
    It doesn't have to look great, it just has to heat!

    Thanks, 
    Steve Branam 
    DTN 226-6043
    

    Steve,
    
    Consider getting a new steam vent for the radiator.  This is the shiney
    metal "thing" mounted 1/2 way up on the opposite side of the steam
    input on the radiator.  Some vents are adjustable and some are fixed.
    You need to get a fast venting valve (or an adjustable one set to fast)
    to solve the radiator heating problem.  The vent allows the cold air in
    the radiator to escape while letting the steam to get into the radiator.
    You want the farthest radiators to vent quickly (and heatup) before the
    radiators near the thermosat heatup (and shut off the boiler).
    
    Old vents clog up over time with scale (or get painted over).  Vents 
    run from $5 to $15.  I can't say what you get for the more expensive 
    brand name/US made valves.  My heating contractor only uses the brand 
    name valves; less chance of a problem and call back.
    
    Ed