Conference 7.286::home_work

The conversion from watts to amps is more complicated in multi-phase wiring;
I'll check out the details tonight.

I hope it was the wiring inspector, not the building inspector, that told you
a 30-amp breaker was OK.

David Larrick

Are you sure they are wired in parallel?  The heaters that I have had occasion
to work with were wired such that the lower unit is the primary heating device
and is normally the only one used.  If the tank temperature drops too low
the lower element switches off and the upper comes on.  This way only the
water near the outlet is heated.  When you stop using hot water and the
top of the tank heats up enough the upper unit switches off and lower on
until the whole tank is heated.  It may be that your thermostats are
supplying power to both heaters at the same time which may be wrong.  If
I remember correctly the lower stat is a double pole-double throw switch
so that only one element at a time can get power.  You may want to recheck
the wiring and verify that both can be on together.

My heater is wired exactly as in the last reply, two 5500 units, only one
on at a time.  30 amps double pole breaker.  See if you can find a wiring
diagram attached to the heater; or tell us the name/model # of the unit and
maybe someone has the same.

__Rich

There is no way any electric hot water heater is going to draw more than
the breaker that was installed to protect the wiring and device.  There is
no such thing as overloading the breaker for a little while as a natural
repetitive situation.  If you are blowing the breaker and if this system
worked correctly (and I assume it was installed correctly in the first place)
then something is definitely very wrong in the hotwater system.  Assuming
that you replaced the elements with the correct size then I thing .1, and
.2 are correct in assuming that the devices used to control application
of juice to the elements is screwing up.  It is reasonable to assume that
if your breaker was a 30 amp then the absolute max that your water heater
would ever draw would be 30 X 220 or 6600 watts, period.

re. 1
There is no "multi-phase" in a house.  220 comes in as two 120 volt rails
referenced to neutral.  Ohms laws works the same way whether your measuring
one rail to neutral or both rails 120-120 to themselves.

Check your controls in the hot water heater -  that is definitely where your
problem is.
                                              

-peter

RE .1:  The building inspector was the only one in and he said he would check
        with the wiring inspector.

RE .2:  Both thermostats are set at the same temperature.  Is this wrong.
        If so, how much differential?  Which one is higher?  What you have
        said sounds reasonable.  When I replaced the elements, I put the
        wires back exactly the way they were.  How could I best check out
        the way the two elements work?  Any suggestions?
        


Bruce Bretschneider

	If you do check if both elements are receiving voltage simultaneously,
I would do it be removing the elements and testing for voltage at the connectors
(carefully).  Do not apply voltage to the elements unless they are submersed
in water.

I think you'd want to set both element thermostats to the same
temperature - I can't see any point in having them set to different
temperatures.  And to save money, set as low as you can, consistent
with having water as hot as you want.  I've got mine set to (in
theory) 120 degrees, which turns out to be just barely too hot to hold
my hand in for any length of time, and that seems to be pretty good.

I have no guesses about what is wrong with your wiring, but I can't
believe that you should need more than the existing 30-amp breaker;
I'll go along with those who are saying that the problem is in the
water heater controls or in the way the elements are hooked up.

Steve

I'd like to step back to first principles for a moment and figure out 
why you suddenly started having breaker problems. You replaced the 
elements; why? No hot water? Then both elements were open (either the
heaters or their controlling thermostats). But they wouldn't fail
simultaneously (the world is usually not like that short of lightning 
strikes), so previously only one element was working. Therefore you
never had an overload.

Now, which element went out first? If the top element fails, the
bottom element heats the water which rises to the top causing 
convection currents that stir the tank, so the water never seems to 
get hot, only warm. If the bottom element fails, the top element heats
the water at the top of the tank, but you run out too soon.

It's been a while since I worked on an electric hot water system, so 
without references, allow me to suggest that if the two elements are 
mechanically different, the top element should include the switch that 
locks out the bottom element while the top is on. Once the top is hot 
enough, it shuts off and allows the bottom to warm up the rest of the 
tank. I think the bottom element can safely be turned down 10-20 
degrees below the top so it doesn't try to heat the bottom to the same
temperature as the top. More bottom heat just makes more vigorous mixing 
and then the top cools down and must switch on again.

Glenn Axelrod

The problem seemed to start when we had no hot water one day.  I checked
the voltage at the elements (top & bottom) and found that each had 220 vac.
(I used a neon tester that lights one bulb for each increment of 110 vac.)
I went to the hardware store and got two new elements of the same style and
wattage, drained the tank and put the new elements in.  I then hooked the
wires up to the terminals they came off of, refilled the tank and then turned
it on.  Trouble ever since.  I am going to call the manufacturer and see
what they can tell me about where the wires to the thermostats should be
going.  I think that is the real problem now.  I'll let you know as soon
as I find out.

Bruce

I am now at home and have just looked at the installation manual for my
Sears hotwater heater I installed several years ago.  The wiring diagram
shows a single pole-double throw switch controlled by the upper thermostat
that allows power to either the upper element OR the lower element but NOT
both.

Also, regarding the settings of the thermostats.  The manual says:

CAUTION: Both the upper and lower thermostats must be set to the same e.
e.  The irony of this is that I have a control on the outside of the heater
which allows you to vary the lower thermostat but not the upper.  The outside
control says things like "set here to save energy".  Of course, I can easily
change that one without removing the cover so how does one be sure the
concealed one and the outside one are the same.

Hope this come out ok, I am getting noise on the dialup line.

Guess this one really started a lot of people thinking about something we
all take for granted--open the hot water faucet and we get hot water.  I
just got off the phone with the water heater company and I found out that
the former owner--the one who couldn't put in windows that are plumb or door
jambs that are square--had taken it on himself to rewire the tank.  He had
jumpered the internal wiring together so that both elements would run at
the same time and also switched around the way the input wires are connected.
I now have the scoop straight from the horse's mouth and I will attack it
tonight.

Many thanks to all who responded.  I changed a few of the wires last night
to what 'seemed' more reasonable and we had hot water this morning.  When
I get home, I'll check out the rest.

Bruce Bretschneider

If anyone else has a Mor-flo brand water heater, their toll free number is:
800-321-9342.

BB

While we're on the subject of electric hot water heaters, you can save yourself
a good $10+ a month by installing a timer.  Most good electrical supply houses
will have a good, high-amp 220V timer for about $25-30.  It usually works best
to run the heater from about 5-8 in the morning, and then the same time in the
evening.  The timers have manual override switches so that you can keep the
heater on if you need it, like if you're doing a bunch of laundry.  Some of the
more expensive models even have a remote override switch that you can mount
wherever it is convenient.  They are usually set up so that if you manually turn
it on, it will still turn itself back off the next time that it would normally
turn off, so that you don't forget and leave it on.

Don't let anyone tell you that it takes more energy to heat the water back up
than it does to keep it hot; it just ain't true.  I don't remember my thermo-
dynamics very well, but heat loss is proportional to either the 3rd or 4th (I
think it's 4th) power of the temperature differential, so if the tank is cooler
it loses much less energy.

As was previously mentioned, lowering the temperature of the tank helps in this
regard also.  The apartment that we recently moved out of had a 30gal tank in
an unheated (and VERY cold) basement.  We kept the thermostat at about 120, and
it was only about $20 a month for the hot water in the dead of winter. (note,
no dishwasher, or clothes washers, and only 2 people).  The only drawback to
keeping it set low is that taking two consecutive showers you have to rush or 
you run out of water.  When the water is set at 160, you need less of it, and
can add more cold water, to get the same temperature shower stream.

In our new house, we have a gas instant-hot water heater, so we aren't keeping
any water hot, and we can take a shower for 3 hours if we want.

Paul

How do you like your new water heater?  I am considering installing one so
that we can take as many showers in a row as necessary without running out
of hot water (4 adults and 2 kids on a 40 gal tank is stretching it a lot).
What is the brand name?  Thanks in advance.

Bruce

I assisted my brother-in-law in relplacing a control in an electric
hot water heater once. The new control was a replacement for a number of
models and you got several wiring diagrams to choose from. The choice was
not clear. While you replaced the coils, make sure that 1) your control
isnt bad and 2) make sure the wiring was done correctly. A volt meter
and alot of patience were required to figure out what was going on.
Talk about comittee work!

Bill

RE: .13

    Yes. I'd like to know more about your instant water heater. How much
    was it and what was involved in installing it?

-mike

The instant-hot water heater that we have is made by the Thermar company in 
England.  They've sold them in Europe for many years, since energy of all kinds
has always been more expensive over there.  For the gas unit, they claim a 
savings of $150 or more a year (over a gas tank heater).  We got ours from
Consolidated Dutchwest Co., a mail order outfit that sells mostly wood stoves, 
but has recently branched out into other sorts of home energy products.  They
sell it for $400, $360 if you pick it up at their plant in Plymouth Mass.  
That's compared to $140 for a gas tank heater.  The heater is rated to raise
the temperature of 2 gallons a minute by 70 degrees.  Since most cold water is
at 50 degrees, that means an output temperature of 120 degrees.  The unit is 
about 3 feet tall, 18 inches wide, about 10 inches deep, and it hangs on the 
wall.  It needs a 5" flue, but they do sell a version with a direct vent (you
can vent it through a combustible wall).

They also sell electric instant-hot heaters.  They are cute little things, only
about 6"x9"x3", and will heat .7 gallons a minute by 70 degrees.  You can put 
up to 3 in series (on the water line, not the electrical line), so that you can 
heat 2.1 gallons a minute.  You'd better have 200 amp service though, because
each one of them needs it's own 40 amp breaker.  That means while you're taking
a shower you'll be drawing 120 amps.  Apparently the savings for the electric
heaters is not quite as dramatic as for the gas heaters, but it is still in the
range of $100+ a year.

Enough with technicalities, so what is it like to live with it?  I can't really
tell yet what the actual dollar savings are, since we've only had it for about
2 months.  And I'll never have real facts, because I have nothing to compare to,
we put the heater in a brand new house. 

You do have to learn to live with it, it is slightly different from having a 
tank.  For one thing, you CAN'T do two things at once.  Taking a shower draws it
to its max.  Past its max, actually, we had to put a lower-flow shower head on.
With a normal shower head it felt like it was just dripping on you.  If you like
serious quantities of water dumping on you, you might not like it.  You're 
getting 2 gallons a minute at 120 degrees.  You can only mix in a little cold 
water and still have it be hot enough, so the flow is about 2 1/4 gallons a 
minute.  With a tank at 160 degrees, you can get a shower humming at about 4 
gallons a minute.  2 1/4 is more than adequate though.  The shower head we have 
is NOT one of those that turns the water into a fine mist.  It feels like a 
normal shower, just slightly less water.  Actually, that saves you more energy.
Since the shower will draw all it can give, running laundry or the dishwasher or
another shower is out of the question.  Even turning on another faucet will 
change the temperature slightly.

Other possible drawbacks:  It takes a little longer to get the hot water to you,
and once you start getting hot water the temperature continues to rise for a 
minute or two while the heater heats up.  Also, if you run the hot water at a 
very low flow rate, say as a trickle to rinse dishes while you're washing, then
it won't turn on the heater.

And that's it for negative points.  The big positive points are the obvious:
less $, and you can run the shower forever if you want, or until you gas tank
runs out.  I like it a lot.  The drawbacks are easy to work around, and the
benefits are great.

Paul

I've had an instant-hot water heater for a year and a half now; the brand
is Paloma.  Our $ savings are even higher because we replaced a 52-gallon
electric heater (our electric bill went from $60/month to $25/month and
our gas bill only went up $5/month).

The disadvantages are as Paul describes them, though I understand that they
now make a model that will cause the heater to kick in even at very small
rates of flow.  I agree that the disadvantages are trivial unless you simply
must take a shower while doing a load of laundry.

Oh, one other thing.  I believe my unit lets you set the temperature rise
(though the granularity is not very fine -- it's just a dial marked from
one to five).  The unit restricts the rate of flow to match the desired
temperature.  Thus if you specify the maximum temperature rise (100 degrees
F.) the flow rate will depend on the temperature of the incoming water.

Our next step is to install a tempering tank in the basement.  This will
let the water warm up to the ambient basement temperature before passing
through the heater.  Well water is *cold*.
                                          
JP

Where does one purchase a TEMPERING TANK?

re: .19

I've looked into the tempering tanks and they are actually called 'range 
boilers' by folks in the plumbing supply trade. It's nothing more than a 
30 gallon tank with about 6 1" NPT threaded 'taps' in it at various 
places.

It has NO heating elements in it at all, just holes that you use to 
connect to your wood or coal stove water heater coil. Up in the southern 
NH area, I found two supply houses that can get you one for about 
$150... They are Masi Plumbing & Heating, Nashua (603)889-2331 and New 
Hampshire Supply, Manchester (603)669-8100.

I also found that Sears, Roebuck has listed in their catalog some well 
water storage tanks of about 30-40 gallon capacity for about $100. You 
need something that can withstand the normal house water pressure from 
either a well or city supply.

Chris

Given well water is typically not going to be less than 50 degrees, what
is the ambient temp in your basement ??? I would question whether a tempering
tank would be worthwhile. How long would it take 30-50 gallons of water at
50 degrees to attain the temperature of a warmer basement (warmer than 50 Deg)?
And what is the water usage ??

Merle
                               

I can believe that the temperature of deep or artesian wells is near 50
degrees.  However, I've got a shallow well and I suspect that the winter
temperature is closer to that of ice-covered lake or pond water, which
is about 36 degrees.  Even so, I don't expect any dramatic savings, which
is why I'm only at the "thinking-about-it" stage after a year and a half...

JP

    How big of a job is it to put a timer on your electric water heater?
    Is it something I can do myself without getting fried?!!  Does any-
    one have such a timer on thier tank?  What are the savings and what
    brand timer would you recommend?
    
    						Thanks,
    
    							J. Waters 

Installation isn't so bad.  After you cut the power, you install
this switch upstream (w.r.t. the power source) from the water
heater.  Timers come with nicely labeled terminals, so if you
can install a plug/switch/light properly, you should be able to
put in one of these.

R.

    I put a timer on an electric water heater in my last house.  It
    was pretty simple.  The timer goes between the breaker and the heater,
    so by just tripping the breaker you're reasonably safe.
    
    The timer I had had multiple on/off cycles.  I shut the tank down
    when everyone was in bed, and powered it up an hour before we started
    getting up.  It was also shut down during the day (when no one was
    home).  The daytime shut down didn't last long.  Something about
    doing laundry and dishes, etc with cold water on a Saturday didn't
    go over too big.
    
    As far as savings went, we sold the house a couple of months after
    I put the timer in, so somebody else is saving the bucks, but in
    the short time we used it, the savings were around 10 to 15% monthly.
    
    I think with some experimenting I could have stretched the off time
    additionally, and with some cooperation from the family, who knows...
    
    I bought the timer from Granger in Manchester.
    
    BC
    

    Last June I made the conversion from gas (bottled) hot water to
    electric, installing a timer at the same time.  As stated in .-1
    & 2, installation was fairly simple.  The savings have been more
    thatn gratifying.  I, too, set the timer to cycle on and off three
    times a day and have had no shortage of hot water.  There is a manual
    override on the timer if needed.
    
    Summary of costs:
    
    		Gas bill prior to conversion-  $45 - $50 /mo
    
    		 "   "   since       "	    -  $10 - $12 /mo 
    
    			(we still cook and dry clothes with gas)
    
    		Rise in electric bill since conversion- $5 - $7 /mo
    
    All in all the timer seems to be a very good investment.
    
    						Mike

    I recommend a brand called the 'Little Grey Box'.  They're $20-$30.
    Most hardware stores have it.  My hot water heater is on from 4am
    to 5 am.  That's it.  When I do laundry, I flip the manual override
    about 1 hour before doing it.
    

    OK... I did EXACTLY that last night. I had purchased a 21.95 utility
    timer from Sears. It came with 1 set of on/off trips. I ordered
    two more sets from Sears (each set was 1.00) so the timer with 3
    set periods ended up costing 23.95. A few comments:
    
    	1. Make sure that the timer contacts are RATED for the heater
    		wattage (in amps!)... The Sears timer had 40 amp contacts.
    
    	2. Use AT LEAST 10 guage wire for ALL INTERCONNECTIONS.
    
    	3. Remember that the timer should ONLY be used in systems that
    		have DUAL heater elements and should be wired to the
    		'Peak Load' element, Not the 'Running' element
    		BUT Certainly NOT BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	4. Use Grounded interconnections
    
    	5. Pull the Dual-breaker OUT OF THE BOX if possible while doing
    		the work. Seems like over kill, but look what happens
    		if the power 'accidently' shows up. (like forgetting
    		to turn it off, knocking the trip levers, dirty
    		contacts that allow some bleed...etc)
    
	6. You can pull the power for the Timer Motor (if it 120v) from
    		one-leg of the 240v circuit. COnnect the motor
    		coil from Ground to Either (Preferrably the RED) 'hot'
   		lead.
    
    
    Mark.
    
    (Let's hope the visions of money savings will be seen...)
    

I know this may start the conversation down a rat hole but......
    
	Will the use of a timer lead to a shorter life time for your
    hot water heater?  My understanding is that the main reason a water
    heater breaks is from the cracking of the glass liner due to 
    thermal stresses.  The glass liner and the metal jacket have different
    coefficients of thermal expansion.  As heater is used cold water
    enters and hot water exits.  The differences in the expansion
    coefficients between the glass and metal causes stress between
    the liner and jacket that causes breakage with time.
    	It seem to me that the way to minimize the thermal cycling would
    to leave the tank at a steady state temperature.  Cycling the heater
    on and off with a timer must cause more wear than just leaving it
    on.  I don't have any data so I'm not sure whether the money you
    save in electricity offsets the shorter life of the heater.  
    	Am I missing something here?
    						=Ralph=	
    

    Yes... you're missing something. The tank stays hot. The thermal
    stress would only happen if the tank cooled and then was re-heated
    and cooled and heated....   Not the case. Merely one element
    is turned on instead of two. 1/2 the wattage during low-demand
    periods. 1/2 wattage is ok to keep tank hot if no large amount of
    water is being drawn.
    
    Again, the timer should ONLY be used for 2-element systems. Otherwise
    there is a cost/savings issue. Also, you would have to wait quite
    awhile to take a shower during the 'wrong' time if you needed to.
    
    M
    

re:.5

I would guess you're more likely to hurt yourself pulling the breaker out of 
the box than you are by just tripping it.  Assuming you DO trip it, and then 
check the contacts at the heater with a volt meter.  Voltage leaks in the 
breaker are VERY rare, as far as I know.  To pull the breaker, you have to open 
thr whole box, and trip the main breaker.  What if IT has a voltage leak?  What 
about lights and anything else while you put in the timer?

In short, pulling the breaker has many disadvantages, and no advantages as far 
as I can see.

re:.6
>	Will the use of a timer lead to a shorter life time for your
>    hot water heater?  

I don't see why.  All the timer does is let the water slowly cool overnight.  
In the morning, when the tank goes back on, I'm sure the water is still quite a 
bit warmer than the cold inlet, so the extra expansion cycling is probably in 
the noise range compared with the normal cycling of hot water use.

Paul

    Some disagreement...
    
    	I have a dual element electric water heater.  The elements are
    _never_ on at the same time.  The upper one only comes on if the
    water at the top of the heater cools sufficiently, and then it cuts
    out the lower element.
    
    	Do _not_ draw 120V between any wire and _ground_.  Use the
    neutral wire.  The ground wire is for fault protection not current
    flow.
    
    __Rich

    Regarding the drawing od 120V...yes, you're right. I meant to say
    the nuetral leg rather than GROUND. In other words, for 120v purposes,
    treat the feeding line as TWO 120V circuits. I ran a 10-3 wire with
    separate GROUND. Worked fine. Well within code.
    
    Breaker						Heater
    Hot
      o------------------------------------+---------------o Common
    					Timer
    Nuetral				Motor       Switch
      o------------------------------------+      +---xx---o Peak
    						  |
    Hot						  |
      o-------------------------------------------+--------o Running
    
    Ground
      o----------------------------------------------------o Ground
    
    
    

    re: .0  The electric company should install it free at the meter
    AND they should give you better elec. rate (IF you are an all-elec
    house).   This saves THEM money since it reduces demand at peak
    times. If your water heater is at all well insulated I cannot imagine
    that it would save you more than a few bucks a month.
    
    And at what risk?  Suppose your house experiences a 3hour outage
    in the middle of the night?  Does your timer know about that? NO?
    Then you risk a cold shower in the morning!
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

re: .11

Although you are right about the price of installation, I disagree with 
the concept. With the 'Little Gray Box', YOU have control over the time 
when your heater is using power, not the power company.

My heater is on it's own meter, and after installation, I saw more than 
a couple of dollars savings. In fact, I saw a 50% decrease with the 
timer energizing the elements for only 5 hours per day. I have a 40 gal. 
tank, a wife an 2 yr old son using water. So, in short, a $25.00 timer 
was paid for with the first month's savings...

    re: .12 well done.  But you must have been loosing that money/heat
    out the piping or other uninsulated pathways, and/or you like to
    keep your water REALLY HOT!  For electric hot water storage it is
    axiomatic that there is no such thing as too much insulation, including
    the pipes leading away from the tank, and even leading TO the tank.
    
    By putting your effort into insulation you save AND reduce the risk
    of having a power outtage give you a ~~bath~~. 
    
    	RMM
    

    
    any such timer exist for gas water heaters???
    
    /Steve
    

    I havea 5 year old electric 52 gallon hot water heater with a problem.
    It seems to be working on only one element from time to time. If
    someone takes a shower one day, the next person may be out of hot
    water for an period of time while it reheats, or they may have plenty
    of hot water for a shower immmediately. A plumber seemed to think
    there was nothing to do but wait it out while it died a slow death,
    it worked fine while he was there (Of course!). He checked both
    elements and they both worked perfectly for him. It seems to be
    getting worse as we are more frequently out of hot water than we
    are in, but still would like to define my options better.
    
    	. Do I wait for the whole heater to die?
    	. Do I buy a new one now and throw it in?
    	. Do I replace just one element, assuming I could find which
    		one is now bad?
    	. Do I call Mass Electric and let them install amd maintain
    		a new one?
    
    This is second heater in ten years and ready to die again, so our
    water system in town is chewing them up a a heck of a rate of speed.
    All plumbers agree that even the best water heater will be destroyed
    by the water and not to wate money on the best heater because of
    the problems. 
    
    Anyone have any solutions? Do you know what Mass Electric is going
    to charge me for a rental heater?
    
    Thanks.

    I had the same problem with my water heater and I just drained downs
    the system and put two new elements in. The elements only ran about
    $20 and I changed them in a couple of hours. The bottom line is
    that the problem was solved for about the cost of a good meal. It
    might be worth the few bucks to try new elements even though the
    old ones tested OK. By the way my old elements tested OK too.
    

    >> .1
    
     I agree with ref .1 ..there is not a hell of a lot inside a electric
    water heater..
    
    Check the type of heater elements you have and call around for
    replacements. 
    
    Also check the relay and thermostat element (usually mounted on
    the top half-under the removable cover)
    
    hope this is some help...
    
    Canuck
    

    Re: .0
    
      I just replaced a bad element in my "52" gallon water heater last
    night. I had never done this before and it really is a simple job.  
    Thanks to this notes file, I diagnosed which element it was and replaced
    it.  I was told by someone in my group that there were maybe two
    manufacturers of elements but I decided I would go ahead and get
    it from Sears because that is where the heater was from.  Lo and
    behold, they sold me a generic element for $9.99.  Tools needed
    are: philips screwdriver and adjustable pliers (I believe that is
    what they are called).  Oh, and don't forget the garden hose to
    drain the tank and to shut off power to the tank.  Draining took 
    about a half hour because there was no pressure to force it out
    after the water supply was shut off.  You won't believe how much 
    rust/sludge will come out of there!  I ran a lot of water through 
    afer completion in the hopes of getting it all out but finally 
    gave up.  I thought it would take days for the water to clear up.
    It took about an hour!  It really did settle that quickly.  End 
    result:  I was able to take my looong hot shower this morning.  
    I believe it was note 26 that discusses water heaters and how to 
    diagnose which element is bad.  I had hot water but not enough 
    which translated to bad lower element.  I believe the diagnosis
    would have been the upper element if the water only got warm and
    never hot.  Regarding Mass Electric water heaters:  I don't believe
    they do this anymore.  The way I understand it is that they will
    continue to service/bill you if you have one of their water heaters
    but will not perform new installations.
    
    -Jim
     

    You should think about flushing your hot water heater more often
    being that you got that much rust out of it.  It may make the new
    elements last longer.  When I was living in New Hampshire, (lots
    of iron in the water) I used to flush the tank at least once every
    three months and it was amazing how red the water was but it would
    clear up within five to ten minutes.

    Re: .4
    
      You are right.  In fact, the owners manual to the heater states
    that this should be done once a month.  This house had tennants
    for three years prior to my buying this house two months ago.  They
    didn't even clean the house never mind maintain anything!  They
    didn't even replace the air filter for the FHA system.  I don't
    know how any air could circulate through this system.  Sorry, didn't
    mean to get on a soapbox.  I personally do take preventive maintenance
    seriously and I have been making up for the lack of it.  
    
    -Jim
    
    

    I had a similar problem.  It turned out to be a broken piece of
    plastic where the electrical contact points are located.  Sometimes
    the contacts worked properly, sometimes they didn't.  I located
    the problem, removed the plastic (after disconnecting electricity),
    glued the broken area, and it's been fine ever since.  This may
    be your problem also.  Good luck.
    
    Tom
    
    
    

    
    Preventative maintenance is very important as mention in .4 & .5.
    Also, don't forget to test the pressure relief valve every so often
    (my owners manual says once a month).  When I was in the process
    of buying my current house I'd had it inspected.  When the Inspector
    checked the relief valve it opened (with some force and a cracking
    sound) but would not close because it was rusted so bad.  Needless to
    say, there was water everywhere and the previous owner was quite
    disturbed.  We replaced the valave and cleaned up the mess to satisfy
    the owner but, this could have posed a real danger had it not been
    caught.  Pressure relief valves are there to do just what thier name
    implies and if for some reason the pressure in the tank exceeds
    safe limits and the valve is stuck the tank could explode.
    
    I just thought I'd ad my thoughts around this.  I may not religiously
    check mine each month but I usually don't exceed 3 months without
    checking.
    
    Mike Galvin
    
    

    Re: .7
    
      Thanks for the suggestion.  I hadn't thought about the pressure
    relief valve and the owners manual only says to have one installed 
    if the tank doesn't come with one.  Needless to say I haven't checked
    this out.  Is the opening/closing mechanism obvious for testing?
    
    -Jim
    

    Mass. Elec. will rent you the heater but you have to pay to have
    it installed.
    
    My plumber says only test NEW relief valves; thereafter leave them
    alone.  The only one I ever tested broke off in my hand!  That was
    before I heard the advice, so I will not test another.  
    
    This advice does not apply to vaccum relief valves which should
    activate if you drain the tank.  If the valve doesn't work then
    the tank will bubble a LOT and will take a long time to drain.
    
    My solar preheater gives my hot water system three presure relief
    valves, two vacume relief valves, a mixer, a cutoff, and three
    drain valves ...
    
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    Another thing to check while futzing with elements, etc: many electric
    water heaters have a sacrificial electrode to help keep the elements
    from corroding away.. the manual for my water heater says to check
    it every six months but I, of course, have never bothered... 
    
    Seeing as we've been running out of hot water a lot lately, maybe
    it's time to do the once-over..
    
    ...tek

I need to buy a new electric water heater. My present heater is 52 gallons, but
I'm wondering if I should drop down to a 40 gallon tank as recommended by a
local plumbing supply dealer. How do I select a proper size tank? If it helps,
I have a three bedroom house and my water heating electric rate specifies a
minimum tank size of 40 gallons. 

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere in this file. DIR/TITLE didn't find 
anything useful.

Thx. Bob

    There are fast recovery models out now that you don't need such
    a large tank to hold all the water. Figure at 10 gallons per person
    with a minimum of 2.5 persons per household. (figures out of my
    DYI book.
    
    /cal

IF course, in some hard-water towns, if you under or oversize, you 
usually don't have to live with your mistake for more than 4 or 5 
years 8-)

Hi Bob, Hows things ?

	I have an 82 gallon HWH that has a heats the water at a rate of 
	about 12 gal/hour. I like the idea that bigger is better. I can
	run the dishwasher, washing machine and take a shower with
	no concern for running out of hot water. The tank only heats
	the water during the off-peak rate times (ie 11pm til 7am)

	In addition the heater is rented from Mass. Electric. ($4/mth)
	You might look into this with your local oil/gas/elect ?
	company.

	pat

    Let's see if this note comes back to life.  It's definately the
    right one ...
    
    About a month ago we came home one night and found we had no hot
    water.  I figured that it was time to replace the heater, an 82
    gal electric (family of 5, 2.75 bath house).    So I turned to
    HOME_WORK, and found this note.
    
    I read that I could replace only the elements - I din't know that. Turn
    off the breaker first - good move.  Then I read that there was a little
    red button marked reset. So when I took the panel of the heater, I
    pressed the button, turned on the breaker, and, YES - it was heating.
    I checked the elements with a meter to make sure that they were getting
    juice,  but I din't disconnect the elements from the wiring to test
    their resistance individually. 
    
    And I had no idea why the internal reset (but not the breaker) blew.
    
    Yesterday morning, I noticed (in the shower - ouch!) that our water
    was hotter than usual.  This morning, we had no hot water at all.
    Yes, the reset button had popped again.
    
    My Question:  Why is this happening?  Should I replace the elements?
    The control circuits?  The whole water heater (it's about 6 years
    old, and original with the house.)
                                

The reset on the hot water tank in my house tripped itself off several
times before it gave up. Dumb old me kept resetting it. The last time
I hit the reset button I had blue flames and a loud zzzzzttt and
strong smell of ozone in basement. 

Then the element ran wild and blew steam and hot water all over the
basement. 

Mass Electric replaced the tank and I never did find out what was 
wrong.

John H.

    I have a question.  My 80 gal electric water heater is rented. 
    It says something like "do not touch or alter with out the permission
    of Mass Electric."
    
    Can i still put my own timer on it?
    
    Elaine

    I know this is an old note, but my questions fit
    
.8>  I think the bottom element can safely be turned down 10-20 degrees below 
.8>  the top so it doesn't try to heat the bottom to the same temperature as 
.8>  the top. More bottom heat just makes more vigorous mixing and then the 
.8>  top cools down and must switch on again.

.10>  ... the installation manual for my Sears hotwater heater ... says:
.10>
.10>  CAUTION: Both the upper and lower thermostats must be set to the same e.e.
    
    
    I had a Mass Save energy audit last week.  The auditor suggested
    the same as .8 above.  He suggested 140 as a minimum temp for
    dishwashers, so I turned mine up from 120 and now get clean dishes.
    Why can't I have the top at 140 and the bottom at 120?  It's an
    80 gallon electric tank.
    
    Elaine

    
    when I put a "Little Gray Box" timer on my water heater, I didn't
    touch the heater itself; I just mounted the box close to the breaker
    panel, and wired it in-line with the cable to the water heater.

    Re: last
      The top element is typically used for fast recovery(i.e. turns
    on when lower element can't keep up with the demand for hot water.
    I may be making assumptions here but I would tend to think that
    my water heater is typical in that it fills from the bottom and the
    hot water is taken from the top.  If you have the top element at
    140 and the lower at 120, you will have 140 degree water for a short
    time and 120 from there on out with ONLY the top element kicking
    in to try to bring the top of the tank back up to the 140 degree
    temperature. Only after the top of the tank is at 140 will the lower
    element go back on to bring the lower portion of the tank back up
    to 120. With both elements the same temperature, the lower element
    should be the only one to come on...especially with an 80 gal tank.
    I hope I'm not totally off base with this response.  :^)
    
    -Jim
    

Could anyone comment on the relationships between BTU, size, and
energy efficiency?  I see Sears sell both 40 and 50 gal. gas HW
heaters with the same BTU, and then add about 16% to the BTU (from 30
to 35K) and call it 'fast recovery'.  From their catalog, it appears
that <N> *1000 BTUs provides approx. <N> gallons/hour "recovery 
@90degF rise".  Is this a standard unit of measuring water heaters?  
What does it mean?  They way I read this, I think I see


Sears Standard: 75% recovery in an hour
Sears Better:   87%      
Sears Best:    >100%

But is the Best, the most energy efficient?
/confused

    let me see if i can explain. 1st off the burner size and recovery
    are realtive no matter what the gallonage. as you stated
    30k for 40 gal, 35k for 50 gal. the bigger the capacity
    the bigger the burner. there all about the same when
    its a household unit. the common denominator for a gas fired
    unit is therms. thats how gas is sold, and consumed.
    you need to know how many therms it uses to produce x,
    as compared to something larger, or a different brand.
    bottom line, ever since the energy crisis, where they
    ran out of $30c gasoline, and now charge >$1.00, the gas 
    hot water heaters come with smaller burners. used to 
    get a 50k btu burner with a 30 gallon tank. (fact, call comm
    gas) now the feds say 30 or 35. they suck, i have one.
    the biggest problem with them is standby time. they eat
    up fuel just sitting there, waiting for you to use the 
    hot water.  i know this may not be practical, but 
    the best hot water heater i had was an oil fired unit
    with a beckett burner, you could have 2 showers going at
    once and use the dishwasher simultaneouly. i'm not sure
    what you can do, but if you want, you could find an old
    heater and strip the burner out, and put it in the new
    one, the tank is the prdoblem, the burner will outlast
    them 2 or more to one, but your not going to get the 
    efficiency.
    
    jim.

>    you need to know how many therms it uses to produce x,
>    as compared to something larger, or a different brand.

what is x?

>    the biggest problem with them is standby time. they eat
>    up fuel just sitting there, waiting for you to use the 
>    hot water.  

don't understand - is this a characteristic of newer units only?

    as for therms call comm. gas they can give you better relational
    values, than i can. i.e. x therms = y btu's.
    
    as for stand by time, for example, no one is at home during the
    day, the water heater temp setting is unchanged, (or left alone)
    say the setting is 120 deg. during the day the heater will go
    on as needed to maintain 120 deg. this is a waste, no one 
    needs it. its known as stand by time. the same thing happens
    at night when the occupants are sleeping. just maintains 
    120 deg. an oil fired heater could be turned off during the
    day, and at night when sleeping.
    
    need more info, send mail to my node.
    
    jim.

My plumber recommended a STATE water heater - said they were better 
cause they have foam rather than fiberglas insulation - they're also 
more $$$ - is the foam really better - 

also - sounds like people are having GOOD luck with sears water 
heaters...any horror stories?

    
    	Jim,
    
    	While I can understand your frusteration, lets separate out
    the two issues.  You had problems with the installation, not with
    the heater itself.  You can buy a water heater from Sears and have
    someone else install it just as easily as going to a different store
    and buying it to have someone else install it.  I think your
    recommendation should be "Avoid Sears installation!".     
    
    							-craig

    Yes, Craig, you're right.  Thanks for correcting me.
    
    However, in my opinion, the only reason one would buy a water heater
    from Sears is because they (Sears) are also going to be doing the
    installation.  As I mentioned before, Sears water heaters are nothing
    more than another company's product;  you pay the extra markup cost
    just for the Sears label.  I say, save your money!  Go to either
    an independent plumber or a plumbing supply place (for the DIYer)
    for the same unit, without the fancy label.
    
    P.S.  In the fine print on the label of my new Kenmore hot water
    heater, it says "Manufactured by State Water Heaters" (or something
    like that).
    
    Jim

RE: 12
    
    However, in my opinion, the only reason one would buy a water heater
    from Sears is because they (Sears) are also going to be doing the
>   installation.  As I mentioned before, Sears water heaters are nothing
>   more than another company's product;  you pay the extra markup cost
>   just for the Sears label.  I say, save your money!  Go to either
>   an independent plumber or a plumbing supply place (for the DIYer)
>   for the same unit, without the fancy label.

Not normally true for Sears.  If you look at the comparable units of,
say, washing machines by Kenmore and Whirlpool (the maker) the Sears is
always cheaper than Whirlpool list price, and when on sale it is cheaper
than Whirlpool discount (often cheaper than the *best* Whirlpool
discount).   What's more, the Sears units often have more features than
the the Whirlpool when you are not buying top-of-the-line. 

There may be no differences between State and Sears water heaters, but
the assumption that just because it is Sears means that you pay more is
not well founded.  Check your plumbing supply house first.  *And* check
the details to see, for example, that Sears did not require State to add
in an energy-saving burner that might explain any difference in price. 
Remember, an OEM product *can* better than what the maker itself 
offers.  

You may not like Sears for other reasons (I avoid their service 
whenever I can), but you'll do better assuming Sears prices are not out 
of line and that there is some reason if there is a significant 
difference in cost. 

Alex

the actual question is:  whose markup is less, Sears, or my plumber's?

thanx for the tip on State = Sears - I can get more info about what my 
plumbers recommending without going thru him.

BTW:  He gave me some weird advice - told me to wait until my (9 or 
more years old) water heater actaully sprung a leak, as he said it 
could last another 9 months or more, and a NEW one might just as well
spring a leak 9 months hence, even if its a State.  Guess that kills
my plans to 'get it before it gets me'	

thanx for the data though 	/j

    
    Re: .14
    
    >BTW:  He game me some weird advice - told me to wait until my (9 or
    >more years old) water heater actaully sprung a leak...
    
    	Depending upon your situation, this isn't all that strange of
    advice.  Look at your basement (or wherever the water heater is)
    and ask: "what would happen if this leaks all night long?"  If the
    answer is that you'll have a stream of water going to a drain with
    no damage of any consequence, then yes, wait until it leaks.  If,
    on the other hand, you don't have good drainage (like I discovered
    last Saturday night ;-( ) and the damage could be significant, then
    it makes more sense to replace it before it goes.
    
    	In more specific cost-benefit terms, the time to replace it
    is when the chances and potential damage of a leak exceeds the
    remaining useful value of the water heater.  Little possible damage
    means the best course of action, then, is to run it 'till it drops.
    
    							-craig

    
    RE .9
    
    The water heater I just replaced was a STATE (only 4 years old).
    Not too good.
    
    Mike

    OK, another rookie question:
    
    In my just purchased 25 year old house, we are having hot
    water shortage.  Two people cannot take a shower one after
    the other.
    
    I took the panel off of the electric hot water tank to 
    turn up the temp.  I raised it from 160 degrees to
    170 degrees.  I think it will go as high as 185 degrees.
    
    What struck me as odd was that there were 2 separate
    temp. controls.  One on top and bottom of tank.
    
    I turned them both up.  Can anyone one tell me why
    there are 2 temp. controls.  Are there 2 separate water
    tanks on this unit or what?  why?
    
    BTW we are a family of 4, wife and kids are home during
    the day.  Can anyone recommend a proper temp. setting?
    
    Mark.

    Oh, I forgot to mention the size of the hot water tank.
    
    It is BIG.  <--- pretty technical huh?
    
    I'm not sure of the gallons, but it is close to six feet tall,
    floor standing unit.  It is a 4 bedroom house so was sized for
    a family.
    
    Mark.

I think I know what may be going.  We used to have a tank like the one you
described.  It essentially has 2 separate heating units, one for day usage and
one for night.  The key is that you probably also have 2 electric meters.  This
is a GOOD situation.  You pay one rate during the day and evening and a lower 
rate during the late night hours.  This means that if you adjust your lifestyle
to meet this you can save $$$'s.  For example, if you wash your clothes or
dishes or your body at 3 AM, you get the discount.  Personally, I never 
bothered...

Anyhow, back to the tank, I'd think twice about cranking up the temperature.
In fact, I seem to recall hearing that the optimal temperature was somewhere
around 145-150 degrees.  Sure, the higher temperature water will come out hotter
but when not in use, you're paying big $$$ to keep it that hot, especially on
real cold days/nights.  Furthermore, since water that hot is too hot to touch, 
you end up cooling it off with cold water anyways.

Now if you have a high capacity water tank and are not getting enough water for
2 people that's mighty strange.  If you take normal showers (whatever that 
means) you should be able to get plenty of water even at the lower temperatures
I'm suggesting.

Is it possible something in the water heater is failing?

I'm sure someone else will jump right in...

-mark

    One thing that may be causing this is the water coming into the
    house now is COLD.  This happens at my house also, that especially
    near the end of winter, the hot water doesn't seem to last as long.
    (why is it that it doesn't happen ALL winter?)
    
    Anyway, I've never seen a water heater with 2 temp controls, but
    hot stuff rises, and it's checking the top/bottom temps. 
    
    
    When you set the water that hot, remember that you can burn yourself
    or maybe your kids.  Very hot water is dangerous unless you are
    always conscious of what you're doing. 
    
    The other thing that can happen is that you are using too much water
    per shower.  Our downstairs unit had this problem cause the restriction
    mechanism on the shower head had fallen out and water was coming
    out by the bucketfull.  When I put a new restricted flow showerhead
    in the shower, hot water now lasts a long time, (but then they
    complained that there wasn't enough water flow!)
    
    
    -bill

      This is well documented in this file.  Either there are sever
    notes on this or a few notes with many replies. :^)
    
      The reason you have two elements is that one is used for normal
    heating of the water (lower) and one is for fast recovery (upper)
    to keep up with demand.  They are NEVER on at the same time and
    I'm confident you DO NOT have two separate power lines to this heater.
    Being 220V you will, however, have two hot (electrically) lines powering
    it.  Chances are, one of your elements is burned out...the lower
    one.  If you get hot water but run out fairly quickly, the lower
    one will probably be dead and if you get very warm but never hot,
    it is probably the upper.  Both thermostats (for upper and lower
    elements) should be set at the same temp.  It is easy to determine
    the bad element with a meter.  This is also documented elsewhere.
    
    -Jim

    Well, I don't think I have two elec. meters, but I will check that
    tonite.
    
    I must admit that at the original 160 degree setting the hot water
    is very hot.  We noticed the problem on Sunday, showers were about
    5 to 10 minutes long.  This upstairs shower has a water control
    lever built in, we turn it to low, and crank it up for rinsing.
    I doubt were using to much water...
    
    Please keep the replies coming...  Could use more thoughts...
    
    Mark

    re .4
    
    Sounds right, I get very hot water but then it is gone fast.
    So maybe the top is dead.  I will look for the testing note.
    
    Thanks.

>    Sounds right, I get very hot water but then it is gone fast.
>    So maybe the top is dead.  I will look for the testing note.
    
You got it backwards.  Hot water gone fast means the bottom one is dead.

Paul

    Well I will check both of them out.
    
    If anyone is interested, note 863.2 gives a very good detailed
    and easy DIY procedure for correcting this problem.
    
    Thanks, Mark.

    
     I had your very same problem a couple of years ago and thought
    the element was burned out. It cost me $29.50 for some guy to tell
    me the fuses were bad. If you have a "peak power" meter as previously
    mentioned, the fuse holders must be inserted to match the contacts
    that contain the fuse.
    
     As mentioned berfore, a restricted flow shower head is an excellent
    idea for conserving hot water but in this case, I think you may
    be looking in wrong area.

    
    Glenn     

    latest update...
    
    Well, last nite I was able to spend about 1/2 hour exploring this
    further.  I took the thermostat cover off and turned the temp. on
    both down from 170 to 155 degrees.  I then disconnected the fuse
    at the fuse box, it uses two cartridge type fuses (never seen these
    before).  I disconnected the wires at the elements and ohm'd the
    two elements.  They both were identical, I did not read the ohms,
    but the needle jumped almost to the top on both.  So according to
    note 863.2, there is nothing wrong with both elements, (I think).
    
    I then examined the thermostats.  Not sure on the principle here
    but the top thermostat has 4 connections/wires, the bottom has 2.
    
    At the top I measured 220 volts from connection 1 to connection
    2.  Connection 2 has a wire running down to thetop element.
    
    At the bottom I measrued only 75 volts from connection 1 to
    connection 2.  This seemed strange to me, but I really don't
    know what I'm looking for, (kind of like U2 and Geraldo).
    
    What I didn't get a chance to do, and I will tonite is see if 
    the line coming into connection 1 at the bottom thermostat had
    220 coming into it.
    
    Overall we still have hot water.  This morning I had a shower 
    no problem, but the true test is on weekends with back to back
    showers.
    
    Also what I did not do according to note 863.2 is disconnect the
    wires going into the thermostats and ohm them.
    
    Any input would be appreciated.  If you can make any sense from
    my non-electrical jargon.
    
    Mark.

    
    
      I'm surprised no one has suggested flushing the water heater itself.
    An awful lot of sediment and crud builds up in the bottom of the
    tank and could be the cause of insufficient heating from the bottom
    element.  More than likely you will find the drain spigot on the
    bottom of the heater, shut off the water supply and hook up a hose
    and drain it.  There is also an access panel to the tank itself
    if you are so inclined to thouroughly clean it.  CAUTION...follow
    the instruction manual before doing this so that you do not burn
    out the heating elements when you refill the tank.
    
      In a prior life, I repeatedly flushed a water heater tank and
    got "like new performance" from it.

    RE: .11
    
    If you are going to drain the H.W. heater completely, turn off the
    power at the panel first!  If you are only going to drain a few
    gallons you don't have to turn it off.  If you drain it completely,
    you may have to let more water in and drain it again if the heater
    was especially dirty.  Then turn it back on, AFTER you have filled
    the tank with water for the last time.

    Phil

re:.11

... many an unsuspecting homeowner has flushed a tank that hasn't been flushed 
in years, only to discover that the rust was all that was plugging the holes...

Paul

    
   re. .13
    
    are you saying not to flush because the rust is plugging holes
    that will cause the tank to leak
    
    or
    
    are you saying to flush because the rust is preventing the hot
    water flow?
    
    Mark. 

    From what's previously been said in this notes file, I've learned
    that it's a good idea to drain a gallon or two from the bottom of
    a water heater every month or so.  This flushs all the rust and
    other crud from the bottom of the tank where it tends to settle.
    
    However, as Paul points out, on an older tank that's never been
    flushed and now has several tiny pin holes in it, the coating of
    rust on the inside is acting as a sealant.  If you disturb this
    balance too much, you're likely to see several small leaks appear
    when the rust is washed away from the tank's inside walls.
    
    Jim

    RE: .15
    
    Maybe, but which is worse?  Flush the heater and see a few small
    pinhole leaks develop?  Or don't flush it and let all the crud build
    up and rust the heater so that you come home some day and find a
    swimming pool in your basement when it fails catastrophically?
    
    I'd rather know if there are holes *before* I have to pump out the
    basement.
    
    Phil

    Flush an old heater, and you may soon find yourself looking for
    a new one.  Let "the crud build up", and don't fix what isn't broken.
    Those are the two schools of thought.  Which one is better?  I'm
    sure it depends heavily on the present state of your heater.  If
    it's fairly new, I'd go ahead and flush it once a month.  If it's
    more than a few years old, I wouldn't disturb what's already inside
    it.
    
    Has anyone ever had a water heater totally fail (i.e., the swimming
    pool effect) without giving the owner even a hint of impending doom??
    Every heater I've ever seen go always starts off with a minor leak
    for at least a few days.  Disregarding the case where the tank broke
    due to physical abuse, I find it hard to believe that it could fail
    so badly as to give no warning.
    
    Jim

    re: .17
    
    Believe it.
    
    Given that alot of water heaters are tucked away where people maynot
    go for a few days the warning may go un-heeded. Then again you could
    have one like my in-laws and 5-6 years down the road have an indoor
    swimming pool all at once, well at least over-night.
    
    Alan

    Yea, I had it happen
    
    I was away for the weekend and when I came home I found a note attached
    to my door from the downstairs tenant  (dated friday night) saying
    something like "Something's leaking in the basement"
    
    Great, about 1.5 inches of water on most of the floor.  What a mess!
    
    -bill

    I read in Popular Science that they have available a brand of water
    heater where the inlet spirals around the lower portion of the tank
    to create a vortex and thus keep the crud from building up.  Most
    water tanks simply have a vertical inlet pipe.  Any one have one
    of these?
    
    -al

    Just to let you know what finally happened...
    
    I found 2 electric lines going into the tank.  One for the top and
    bottom thermostat.  The top line I traced back to the fuse box.
    The bottom line went to the electric meter.  I have one meter and
    apparently there is a clock in there that closes the return line
    which juices up the bottom thermostat.  I disconnected this and
    pig tailed the bottom return to the top return for continuos
    operation.  But the thermostat wasn't relaying to the bottom
    element.  I had a bad bottom thermostat.  Took it to MacDonalds
    plumbing supply in Milford (they were very helpful, listened to
    my story and experiments, and cleared up alot of unknowns for me).
    They don't carry those thermostats but had a pile of used ones.
    They matched it up with one (looks brand new) and charged me $3.00.
    
    What a deal.  Set both thermostats down to 125 degrees and we lived
    happily ever after.

    I been experiencing problems with my hot water heater.  10 days
    ago I had to have the thermostat replaced because I didn't have
    any hot water.  Last night the breaker to the tank tripped and once
    again I don't have any hot water.  According to the documents
    I have on the header there is a trip-free temperature limiting
    device that cuts off all power to tank if the water temperature
    exceeds 190 F.  I guess this is what happened...  When I checked
    the temperature settings they were set high..  I lowered them and
    now nothing.  Has anyone had this problem before??   Should I 
    replace the entire tank??  I called the manufactor and the warranty
    on the tank has ran out (of course)..  What do hot water tanks cost?
        
    Thanks for any information you can give me.
    
    Pam Knorr

	Below is a simplified diagram of the stuff that heats the water.
	You say you guess the temperature limit device switched off.
	Is that what you meant, or did you mean the circuit breaker over
	in the service panel?

	If you meant the temperature limit switch, did you reset it
	after it tripped?  They usually have a little button that you
	push.  There might be more than one limit switch.  (What does
	"trip-free" mean?)

	If you meant the circuit breaker, it could be that the new
	thermostat is faulty.  This happened to me.  You ought to have
	two thermostats.  If the upper one turns on, it keeps power away
	from the lower one.  If they both come on, they trip the circuit
	breaker.  I installed a bad upper thermostat, and both heating
	elements operated, most of the time, because the combined current
	was almost the circuit breaker rating.

	It could also be that the new thermostat was improperly installed.

	190 F is devilishly hot.  Did you draw water that hot?  You'd
	remember.

	If you don't understand the gadgetry, get an electrician to look
	at it.  Did the person who replaced the thermostat seem to be on
	the ball?  Maybe you can call them back.

	Regards, Robert.
	
                                                             Electric
                                                              power
                                                                |
         Water                                                  |
         Heater                                                 v
	+-----+                                           +----------+
	|     |                                           |  Circuit |
	|     |  Max. temp. limit                         |  breaker |
	|     +-+                      Wire               +-+        |
	|     | |<---------------------------------------<| |        |
	|     +-+                                         +-+        |
	|     ||                                          |          |
	|     |v                                          +----------+
	|     +-+  Thermostats                               Service
	|     | |                                             Panel
	|     +-+
	|     |
	|     +-+                                            Service
	|     | |                                             Panel
	|     +-+
	|     |
	+-----+

    LOWER THE TEMPERATURE! Have you scalded anybody yet? 140 degree
    water is what a dishwasher requires, but I wouldn't care to stick
    by beat up and callous mitts in it. If you must mess with the temp,
    buy a thermometer and measure the temp at the faucets, don't use
    the tank settings. When my tank is set to 130, the water at the
    faucets can be painful to a kid.
    
    Joe

	The annode is key to the life of the tank.  I replaced my leaky
    tank two years ago and found out that the annode was gone.  My manual
    says that the replacement is easy, but I've never tried it.  Keep
    us informed on how it goes.
    					=Ralph=

    The home owner's section (Home and Garden section?) of last Sunday's
    Globe had an article on sulfur in water.  They claimed that one
    of the causes of sulfur (hydrogen sulfide, really) is the chemical
    reaction at the anode.  They suggested that people with sulfur in
    their hot water could benefit by removing the anode altogether,
    on the principle that five years of odorless water from the tank
    is better than ten years of smelly water.  I'm not sure I agree,
    but if your water is as smelly as ours, you may want to consider
    it.  Since our cold water smell too, I'm going to leave the anode
    in place, and eventually look for some other solution to the odor.

       Gary

    I have a bunch of questions:
    
    Ratings:
    
    Our heater label indicates 5500 watts at each element, 5500 total,
    and 240V.  Does that mean 120V to each element, or does it really
    mean 240V each?
    
    Calculating amps, 5500/120 is almost 46 amps.  This exceeds the
    rating of the 25 amp hot water tank timer that I saw at Builder's
    Square.  Assuming 240V gives almost 23 amps, which is still
    awfully close to the 25 amp rating.  Do they make hot water tank
    timers with higher ratings?
    
    Mounting:
    
    The wood backing for our service panel is pretty cramped.  Is it
    safe to mount the timer on a joist or beam nearer the heater?  More
    importantly, would that meet code?
    
    Given that the current cable runs near the top of the joists and
    beams, but the terminals for the timer will likely be on the bottom,
    it's conceivable that I won't have enough slack in the cable to
    mount the timer.  The only place I can see slack is right by the
    heater, but I may not have enough clearance there because of the
    water pipes.  Should I a) plan on mounting the timer upside down,
    if necessary? b) plan on replacing one of the runs of cable after
    cutting it (ugh!)? or c) plan on splicing in more cable, if necessary,
    and if so, what's the best way?
    
    re: .9
    
    If a thermostat cuts out the bottom element when turning on the
    top element, and if your timer has cut out just the top element,
    then isn't the effect that once the thermostat switches to the top,
    neither element will come on until the timer turns back on?  Or
    is it more complicated than this?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Gary

>< Note 564.17 by TOKLAS::FELDMAN "PDS, our next success" >
>                            -< Some more questions >-
>
>    I have a bunch of questions:
>    
>    Ratings:
>    
>    Our heater label indicates 5500 watts at each element, 5500 total,
>    and 240V.  Does that mean 120V to each element, or does it really
>    mean 240V each?
>    
>    Calculating amps, 5500/120 is almost 46 amps.  This exceeds the
>    rating of the 25 amp hot water tank timer that I saw at Builder's
>    Square.  Assuming 240V gives almost 23 amps, which is still
>    awfully close to the 25 amp rating.  Do they make hot water tank
>    timers with higher ratings?

	My heater elements are rated the same but are wired such that
only one at a time comes on; never are both elements heating at the same
time. They are 220V elements and will draw the 23 amps you calculated. I
also have Intermatic's 'Little Gray Box' timer and has been working at
those currents for almost 5 years now without a problem.
    
>    Mounting:
>    
>    The wood backing for our service panel is pretty cramped.  Is it
>    safe to mount the timer on a joist or beam nearer the heater?  More
>    importantly, would that meet code?
>    Given that the current cable runs near the top of the joists and
>    beams, but the terminals for the timer will likely be on the bottom,
>    it's conceivable that I won't have enough slack in the cable to
>    mount the timer.  The only place I can see slack is right by the
>    heater, but I may not have enough clearance there because of the
>    water pipes.  Should I a) plan on mounting the timer upside down,
>    if necessary? b) plan on replacing one of the runs of cable after
>    cutting it (ugh!)? or c) plan on splicing in more cable, if necessary,
>    and if so, what's the best way?

	When I redid the bathroom, I chose to mount the box inside the
linen closet nearest the bathroom so I could override the control
without having to go downstairs. I suspect that hanging the box anywhere
convenient and wiring it according to code will suffice. Also, the box
is a totally mechanical device, so its position shouldn't matter woth
regard to safety or operation. Of course, I didn't have to wrestle with
trying to stretch a little slack to mount the timer, as the installation
was fresh. From the safety standpoint I'd plan on running a seamless
feed from wherever you mount the timer to the heater.
    
   
>    re: .9
>    
>    If a thermostat cuts out the bottom element when turning on the
>    top element, and if your timer has cut out just the top element,
>    then isn't the effect that once the thermostat switches to the top,
>    neither element will come on until the timer turns back on?  Or
>    is it more complicated than this?

    My timer cuts off power at the heater's input terminals. The
switching that goes on between elements when actually heating water is a
function of the temperature at the thermostat for either heating
element. To be sure, take a look at the heater's wiring diagram. It
should show how you can rewire it to switch one or both elements
externally or 'automatically' via the two thermostats. My unit has two
feed lines and one neutral, however if you tie both feeds together, then
the unit has a quick recovery cycle using the top element only, then
when the top half of the tank reaches temperature, the bottom element
recieves power to finish off the entire heating cycle. This is how my
heater is wired.


Chris

    Does anyone know anything about sizing or efficiency of Electric Water
    Heater?  I searched the whole conference buy didn't find anything on
    Electic water heater sizes. 

    Answers much appreciated.
    Gary

    
    	All the water heater dealers I've seen have charts that can help
    you size the heater.  Basically, it factors in how many people live in
    the house, how many baths/showers and how many "other" hot water users
    such as dishwashers and clothing washers there are.  Munge the numbers
    together, look at their chart and out pops the recommended model.  Go to
    any local dealer -- this should be an easy process.
    
    	Note that I said "recommended model."  The size alone is just one
    factor.  Some heaters have a fast recovery rate (the speed that it can
    heat water) and thus you can get by with a smaller tank size.  Other
    models (and electric heaters in general are notorious for this) have a low
    recovery rate and you need a larger size.  Thusly the question is not
    just one of size, but of the size/recovery-rate combinations that are
    available.
    
    	Incidently, don't forget to factor in any expansion plans that you
    may have -- for both the house (ie. an addition with another bathroom)
    and/or your family if you are planning on getting a long life-time
    tank.
    
    							-craig

This morning while I was taking a shower I ran out of hot water. 15 
minutes later I noticed that there was still no hot water. I went 
and looked at the breaker panel and noticed that the breaker for the hotwater 
heater had shut off (popped? blown?). 

Over the last year or so this has happened several times, but I never really
thought much about it, but now I am (maybe getting wiser in my old age? :-).
Anyway, it's a 30 gal elec water heater. About a year ago I replaced the 
thermostat and both heating elements with replacements from the manufacturer
matching exactly what I took out... I can't remember if these occurrences 
started happening before or after I replaced those parts.

Any ideas what could be going on? Should I be worried?

Thanks,
-Jim

    I had this problem after installing a timer in the line.
    
    Check to see if there is a high-resistance short someplace. This will
    cause the breaker to warm slowly, and then to trip. Since it only
    warms when it is heating water, it will happen occasionally.
    
    OR I suppose that the breaker is getting fatigued. (speculation)
    
    I noticed that 1/2 of my breaker was warm to the touch. That was the
    side with the short...

>>    I noticed that 1/2 of my breaker was warm to the touch. That was the
>>    side with the short...
Is it abnormal for the breaker to be slightly warm? When the water is heating
and I put my finger on the breaker, I do notice it being slightly warmer
than the breakers on the other lines...

Also, does anyone know if elec water heaters have any type of safety device
installed so that if an element which isn't immersed in water is heating, 
it trips the breaker? My thinking is that maybe I was taking a longer than 
normal shower and the well/pump couldn't meet the demand? Just a thought...

Thanks for your reply, I will check that out more closely
-Jim

	Maybe both elements come on occasionally.

	One of my heater's thermostats decided intermittently to
	connect both elements.  That is, the upper 'stat wouldn't
	disconnect the lower element when turning on the upper
	element.  Touching a voltmeter probe to the thermostat's
	terminals usually broke the short, so it appeared to work
	ok.  And, when both elements were on, sometimes the breaker
	wouldn't open  --  everything was marginal.

	You could try rapping the thermostats with a piece of wood
	to see whether they're connecting incorrectly, or even shorting
	to ground.  (I used a plastic screwdriver handle: remember there 
	are 220-240 volts on those 'stats.)

	Regards, Robert.

>               <<< Note 3385.2 by SMAUG::WOODS "Happiness is seeing 'login:'" >>>
...
>Also, does anyone know if elec water heaters have any type of safety device
>installed so that if an element which isn't immersed in water is heating, 
>it trips the breaker? My thinking is that maybe I was taking a longer than 
>normal shower and the well/pump couldn't meet the demand? Just a thought...

      Generally  there is no such safety device.  Acutally, it should be
      impossible for your water heater tank to be less  than  completely
      full, even if the pump stops totally.  Once the pressure is out of
      the system you'll get no water at the tap, but as long as the  tap
      is  higher  than the heater (which is in the basement, right?)  --
      well, water can't run uphil!
      
      To  check  that  there  is  no air in your tank take a look at the
      pressure/temperature relief valve on top of the tank.  It probably
      has a lever to pull to open the valve.  Pull the lever.  (Be ready
      to close it quickly and keep away from the outlet from which  will
      come HOT water and/or STEAM!)  If water comes out your O.K.; close
      teh valve immediatley.  If steam or  air  comes  out  wait  a  few
      seconds  to let the air/steam out.  When water comes out close the
      valve.  If air/steam comes out for more that 10-15 seconds  or  so
      then  you  may have a problem.  Check the tank again every week or
      two.  If you continue to have air/steam you're gettign air in your
      water system somewhere. It may take a plumber to find the problem. 
      
      BTW -- *DON'T* just "live with" a circuit breaker that trips every
      once in a while. When it trips it is telling you that something is
      wrong.   Might  be  the  breaker,  the  wiring  or the heater, but
      something is wrong!  If its not fixed it may  eventually  cause  a
      serious sproblem.  If you can't figure it out yourself, then get a
      plumber or electrician to help.  No, I'm  not  saying  you  should
      panic, but you should take care of this.

    re:2+4
    
    	The upper thermastat on my 40 gallon electric water heater has
    what appears to be a red plastic button for decoration. This is
    actually a resetable circuit breaker (on mine anyway). If you have
    something similar and it's not tripping, my *guess* is that you
    have a problem in the wiring connection between the breaker and the 
    heater. You can turn off your breaker and tighten/remake the connections
    at the water heater. You can also check the circuit breaker connection
    but be aware that you will have to remove the panel (usually) and
    will be exposing live 100-200 amp bus bars. so be very carefull
    not to slip.
    
    	Ray
    
    

    The single (yes single) heating element on my 2 year old 52 gallon 
    heater died last night.  It's a new construction special.  Anyways,
    it's back online with a new element.  The new element is 4500W
    vs. the 5500W that was in there.  I didn't install it myself and am
    wondering what impact, if any, the 1000W difference will have.

    I was also thinking about putting a timer on the line until I
    read .5's warning about using timers on dual element systems ONLY.
    Up here in the great monopoly of PSNH my water heater bills alone are
    running around $50-$60/month.  From what I've read here it appears
    that a timer would not be of benefit, nor should I install one to
    begin with.  I had hot water, or at least a shower's worth approximately
    1 hour after turning the heater back on.  What are the issues around
    installing a timer on a single element unit?

    Thanks,
    Kevin

    Re .5 :  As long as the timer contacts are rated for sum of the current
    needed by each element I see no reason not  to  put  both elements on a
    timer.
    
    As far as a single element unit goes, I say  go  ahead  and do it.  The
    reason you save money is that it always takes less energy to reheat the
    water when you need it than it does to keep it hot all the time.

re: .19


Kevin,
	See 564.12, the note I entered about 3 years ago.  That savings
number still holds true for me and now I have an additional 2 kids.  As
long as you let the timer do it's thing, it most definately WILL be worth
the cost of the timer.  


Chris

    
    I have a water heater problem, I hope some one can answer the
    question...
    
       Couple of months ago I replaced the top heating element in
    my water heater because it went bad, every thing was fine after
    that ....I have both temp. set at 130, recently some times the
    water gets too hot and after while the heater shuts it self off.
    there is a reset switch on the top termostate, So I open the cover
    and then reset the element...and things start to work again for while.
    
       any idia.....thanks in advance.
    
    
    
    

    On a reasonably-sized electric hot water heater, you'll have two
    heating elements and two thermostats, one for the top and the other for
    the bottom parts of the tank. The thermostats themselves are just as
    likely to go on the blink as the heating elements I found. It sounds
    like your top thermostat may need replacing...At least you don't need
    to drain the tank to replace the thermostat like you did for the
    heating element. Even if your tank is pretty well insulated, you can
    usually feel the tank with your hand to find where it's warm and where
    it's cold just to confirm that the problem's where you think it is.
    When I started having problems with mine, I called the manufacturer who
    pointed me to a wholesale distributer of parts for the thing within 10
    minutes of my house.

    Well, it's done.  And I'm one lucky SOB to be able to write this note!
    The "experience" I've gained will stay with me forever.  For details,
    press on.  I hope this note serves as sufficient testimony for what can
    go wrong when you don't plan out EVERY detail of what you are about to
    do!  Forgetting one almost cost me dearly.

    Kevin



    Sunday, 7/8/90

    When purchasing the timer I also purchased some 10/2 wire because there
    was no slack in the cable coming from the heater directly to the separate
    breaker box which controlled it.  My intention was to switch the wiring
    such that the wire currently coming from the heater to the breaker would
    now go from the heater to the timer.  The new wire would would feed from
    the breaker to the timer.

    So, all set up, main breaker shut off, breaker to heater shut off,
    no power coming off breaker.  Remove ground wire from bar and proceed
    to pull wire from box.  Suddenly sparks start flying, meter is humming,
    wiring to heater is expanding as the ground shorts across one of the
    SE wires coming into the box.  I forgot about the separate meter for
    the heater or to meter across those feeds to ensure no power existed.

    After getting the ground wire off the screw terminal I cut it and 
    removed the wire from the breaker box and called it a day.

    Now, a real electricion shows up today.  He meters out the breaker and
    the feed.  No power present so he calls PSNH to give them the news
    that one of their loyal customers popped their meter.  He goes back down
    cellar and begins feeding the wire from the timer back into the breaker
    box.  Sparks start flying again and he jumps, but not nearly as far as
    I did.  Turns out his meter contacts needed cleaning.  When originally
    inserted into a known live circuit they registered but when testing the
    feed from the breaker and the meter they didn't.  A little cleaning with
    0000 steel wool showed him that indeed there was power coming from the
    meter.  To his suprise (and mine) I hadn't popped the meter.  Back up to
    call PSNH to say 'never mind'.  After taping up the ground wire he 
    proceeded to finish the installation without further incidents.  No
    damage to the water heater, the wiring to it, or the outside meter.

    When all is said and done I have a timer on my electric water heater
    that costs me an additional $36.00 in labor to install and gave me the
    experience of a lifetime to remember it by.

    I now have a 4 inch souvenir piece of 10/2 copper ground wire with
    an arc melted out of it.  It is prominently displayed on the cover of
    the box holding my electrical tools as a permanent reminder of my
    experience and my limits.

	Well this is an old note but the topic is right. 

	I have an A.O.Smith EES 66 gallon electric water heater. It is about
six years old, but as it was a free replacement for a prior unit that failed
under a ten year warranty with less than six years left on the warranty it is
itself no longer under warranty. A small leak has developed around the screw-in
heater elements, particularly at the lower one. I intend to drain it and replace
the gaskets, and if the elements look like they're getting old I'll replace them
too.

	The kicker is, no one will sell me these parts retail - I've called
several dealers for this line, including the one the heater was originally
purchased from (by the previous homeowner), and they will sell parts only
'to the trade'.

	This strikes me as a racket, but has anyone been able to get such parts
in the greater Boston area?

    Any place that sells the heaters retail will probably sell replacement
    elements retail. Try Grossmans, Home Quarters, and a local plumbing
    supply, such as Republic Plumbing Supply in Norwood.

    :^)..Just wanted to take a minute and give a "Tip of the Hat & THANK
    YOU !" to editor of note 863.2...one of my holiday presents was a hot
    water heater problem..after spending some time searching for info. I
    searched out 863.2...I was able to follow the instructions..and as
    instructed my bottom element was bad...I replaced it at minimal cost
    and everyone is happy on the home front again...One thing I ran against
    was the amount of time it took to drain the tank...I tried opening a
    spigot and there is also a pressure release on top which I opened,
    nothing seemed to increase the flow...I even screwed out the bottom
    element part way and could hear air bubbling and that helped some ,but
    nothing like it could flow....Is there any way to relieve that vacuum
    in the tank and get a quicker drain on the tank ?

re: how to relieve vacuum

	Did you try opening a hot water faucet?
bjm

    ..
     >
     O--~~ .26...when I said I opened the spigot I was refering to the hot
    water faucet...sorry if I wasn't clear...as you so aptly indicated I
    also neglected to mention that I had turned off the cold water intake.
    As sometimes happens when writing down steps critical information is
    thought but not entered...
    
        anyway in a word ....yes..any other possibilities ?
    
    Thanks
    	

    Aha!  A language difference!  A faucet (in the North) is a spigot
    (in the South).

    Ya'll's perception is absolutly correct... !

    Ah, I think what was meant was to turn on the faucet/spigot at the base
    of the tank _AND_ALSO_ turn on a hot water faucet/spigot somewhere else
    in the house, probably the one at the highest point of the system.
    
    Willie

    
    What's the plural of Ya'll?
    
    
    
    All Ya'll
    
    

The singular of y'all is you.  Y'all just get confused because when southerners
talk to one person we automatically include their friends and relatives in the 
discussion.  Y'all having a problem with that?

>
>    
>    What's the plural of Ya'll?
>    
>    
>    All Ya'll
    
    
		you'ns

        as in: "you'ns guy gonna com over?, or what?

        Steve_from_almost_south_western_PA

         re: Note 2096.17 by TOOK::CAHILL, specifically "Has anyone
         ever had a water heater totally fail (i.e., the swimming
         pool effect) without giving the owner even a hint of
         impending doom?? Every heater I've ever seen go always
         starts off with a minor leak for at least a few days. 
         Disregarding the case where the tank broke due to physical
         abuse, I find it hard to believe that it could fail so badly
         as to give no warning."

Believe it!  We returned from three days in D.C. at about 10PM last night and
found about an inch of very warm water in our basement.  The area where the hot
water heater is is heavily used (by me) and has been bone dry since 8/87 when
it was installed (by me) as a replacement for its predecessor ... which had
been installed under the same terms - as it turns out, our tank was actually
purchased in about 1969 and has been replaced every 4.5 years since since they
have carried 5-yr warrantees.

I know the warranty on a replacement is only supposed to run for the remainder
of the original unit's warranty, but nobody has brought it up - they note when
purchased, note that it's still under warranty, and I get a replacement.

I might not go that route, though, and will check out the afore-mentioned
lifetime warranty plastic Sears tank.  This is a great way to get the cellar
cleaned, but not after driving 12 hours back from D.C.!

My water heater (about 1-2 years old) started doing something strange last week.
The first person to take a shower in the morning runs out of hot water.  After
that it is fine.  Does it sound like I've already lost an element (bottom?)?


Any ideas appreciated,
Serv

I replaced our electric hot water a few months ago and ever since then we have
been getting spitting at all faucets when we turn on the hot water.  It's as if
air is getting into the system, but I can't imagine how.  We do not get
spitting from the cold water line.

Could there be some kind of reaction inside the heater that results in the
creation of a gas?  Is there anything I can or should do?

Any suggestions will be *greatly* appreciated!

Thanks,
Pete

Yes - electric water heating creates bubbles of hydrogen in the water.  If
it's severe, you probably need an air purger installed on the outgoing hot
water line from the heater.  This can be dangerous if there is a spark
nearby.

			Steve

re: 2096.36 -< Air in system?! >-

    >I replaced our electric hot water a few months ago and ever since
    >then we have been getting spitting at all faucets when we turn on the
    >hot water.  It's as if air is getting into the system, but I can't

    To check for air in the lines (my method):
    
    - Shut off water supply
    - open all affected faucets
    - turn on water supply slowly
    - shut off all open faucets.

    Another possibility:
    How hot is the water tank getting ? Is it possible its "boiling" the
    water internally ?
    
    I had a water tank shutoff switch go bad (Sears Tank), and the water
    got extremely hot. Even the pressure regulator opened to let out
    the excess pressure from the tank (the new regulator from Sears
    was like $14.00 and real simple to install). Be sure to follow
    directions about turning off the Electric Supply.
    
    Bob
    
    

re .37:

You will get hydrogen from an electric water heater only if one of the heating
elements is broken, and a live electric wire is making contact with water.
I hope this isn't the case for a new heater!

It _may_ be that the air was improperly purged from the heater/pipes, and
every once in a while you get another (pressurized) bubble out.  If so, it'll
eventually run out.

It is important the heater itself be purged of air, if a heating element is
not covered by water it will quickly burn out.

-Mike

re: .38 How hot is the water tank getting ? Is it possible its "boiling" the
water internally ?

I have it adjusted so that I can stand in a 100% hot water shower.  It's a bit
uncomfortable at first, but a slight tweek to the cold side corrects it, so I
don't think the problem is overheating.

How can I check for an exposed wire inside the tank?  Does the pressure relief
valve relieve from the top of the tank, so if I crack it and there's any gas
collected inside the heater, it'll come out first?  Then I can hold a match to
the end of the pipe and see if I get a hydrogen 'pop'.

I'll wait for opinions before I actually follow through on that, though.

Pete

    Re: .40
    
    Whatever you do, DON'T try the "light a match" trick!  You may
    find yourself with an explosion if there really is a lot of
    hydrogen.
    
    				Steve

    Since the water is under pressure( typical 60 lbs/sq ft),I hope that
    the water isn't boiling as it would have to be VERY hot.
    
    My sears electric hot water heater said in the installation that some
    gas (hydrogen) would be generated when FIRST turned on,and any time
    that it is turned on after being off for "awhile".
    
    
    Marc H.

    Has anyone had problems with hydorgen sulphide (rotten eggs smell) in
    their hot water supply?  (Hyrogen sulphide, not hydrogen as in the
    last few replies).
    
    Somewhere I've read about electric water heaters generating hydrogen
    sulphide, but I couldn't find anything in this conference.
    
    Rich
    

    re.43
    Are you on a well? Here in colorado in the San Luis valley all the
    well water has that smell due to disolved minerals tasteless but
    whew what a smell! A carbon filter should remove the odor.
    
    -j

    I'm on a well, but the problem is only with the hot water.
    
    (I've had hydrogen sulphide problems with both the hot and cold water; I 
    can solve that by bleaching the well to kill the sulphate consuming
    bacteria.)
    
    Rich
    

    
    	Old note but I didn't see my problem talked about yet...
    
    	At dinner last night my wife noticed that the hot water (usually
    	set quite low) was scalding hot!  The tank is a 40 gal electric
    	240 volt tank.  It's 13 months old.
    
    	I drained off about 4 gals. from the bottom and that water was
    	cool.  I thought it seemed logical that the bottom element was
    	dead (water at top of tank super hot, water at bottom cool).  So
    	I ran out and put in a new bottom element.
    
    	Same problem this morning.  Could it be the thermostat?  Any other
    	things I could check for?
    
    	Any and all help is appreciated.
    
    	Thanks,  Brent

    In an Electric HWT, the top element is designed to heat the relatively
    small amount of water near the top of the tank, while the bottom
    element is designed to heat the rest of the tank.  This allows for
    faster recovery when the tank cools ... the water at the top of the
    tank is kept hot ... thus if you use the dishwasher and then wanted hot
    water to wash your hands, if the bottom element only was used, it
    would take ages until there was anything but warm water at the top
    of the tank due to the convection currents through the whole tank.
    
    Now, here's the rub, both elements do not come on at the same time.
    The top element will always pre-empt the bottom element ... i.e. if
    the top element is on, the bottom will never come on.
    
    So the solution to your problem is nothing to do with the bottom
    element ... the top element thermostat has stuck on ... always
    calling for heat ... hence the scalding water at the top of the
    tank, and because the bottom element doesn't get a look in, the
    bottom half of the tank is cold.
    
    Stuart

	    I think it's possible that the cool water you got came from
	the feed and not the tank.  My tank is that way.  Unless you turn
	off the water to the tank and open a hot water valve, you get 
	almost no water out of the tank faucet.  The feed for my tank
	taps into the drain faucet.

					Tim

    I got mail from the noter with the problem tank ...  Diagnosis correct;
    the upper element thermostat was fried.
    
    

    I installed my 52 gallon electric water heater a few years ago 
    with a timer.
    
    Twice in the last month about 2 weeks apart, the lower 30 amp
    cartridge in the electrical panel has burnt up.  
    
    This system has been working fine for a long time.  Although
    I have had to replace the lower cartridge a couple of times 
    (perhaps once a year).  But now, 2 cartridges in 4 weeks.  I 
    suspect there is a problem.
    
    The cartridge holder has 2 prongs per cartridge (total of 4
    prongs).  One of the prongs (on the cartridge that keeps failing)
    is a bit loose.  They are riveted in place.  I am wondering if
    this could cause the burn out?
    
    Can anyone think of anything else that could cause this to keep
    happening.  The cartridge holder does get very warm when operating.
    
    Help!  Mark

There is probably a poor connection between the cartridge prongs and the
cartridge holder.

Many breaker cartridges seem to use split prongs ... one side slightly
more loose than the other, and seems only to provide the "spring" to
keep a good connection in the cartridge holder.  So, I would suspect
that this is not the problem.

That you are having to replace breakers at all seems strange.  I would
suspect some problem in the holder.  I suspect if you were to turn the
power off and remove the holder, you'd see a very corroded burnt and pitted
connector where the prongs of the cartridge plug in to it.  In which case,
this is your problem, and this must be replaced.

Stuart

    Stuart.
    
    What I have are cartridges not breakers.  Not sure if I made that
    clear.  The cartridge holder has 2 30 amp cartridges.  Funny thing
    is that the loose prong is a plain metalic color and the others
    appear to be a brass color.
    
    I did pull the cartridge holder out and removed the panel.  I looked at
    the connectors where the prongs are inserted and did not notice
    anything burnt, corroded, or pitted.  I will look again tonite to
    double check.
    
    If it is corroded in there what does that mean?  Perhaps a new
    cartridge insert would be in order?
    
    Thanks, Mark

	    You said that the fuse holder gets warm to the touch.  Either 
	the fuses are being run at/near their limit or the loose rivet
	connection has become resistive.  Perhaps both.  This resistance
	would generate heat.  That heat could feasibly be sufficient to
	reduce the fuse life by softening the fuse element.  When a fuse
	`blows', the element melts to open the circuit.
	    I think you should replace the fuse holder or fix it if a new
	one can't be found.  If it stops getting `very warm', then I'd 
	be willing to bet your fuses would stop blowing.

					Tim

    
    I agree with all the previous replies but would like to add one more
    thing. Check the voltage to the tank and also check to see what amount
    of current the tank is drawing when it's running. It's most likely
    the problem mentioned by the others but you should elimenate the tank
    as a possible source of the problem at the same time. 
    
    Paul

Last nite I inspected again.  I tightened the curve part of the plug that the
fuse cartridge sits in and expanded the fingers at the end of the plug that
goes into the sockets for a tighter fit.  The rivet goes thru the curve of the
plug and secures into the plastic body of the holder.

I tightened down everything I could with the only exception being the loose
rivet.  Right now I can't imagine how that loose rivet could cause resistance
as the flow goes thru one socket into the plug, thru the fuse, and out the
other plug.  The loose rivet is only in contact with plastic.  After putting
it all back together and turning the heater on, I went back and checked a
few times at several hour intervals.  The holder was mildly warm and I think
less warm than it was before.  I touched other cartridge holders, the main
lights (for the whole house) was warmer than the one for the water heater.

If it happens again I will drill out the rivet and put a new one in.  I
    inspected the wire from panel to heater and found no damage anywhere.
    Also all the wires were cool to the touch, as was the timer.
    
Here is an attempt to draw the holder...



           ]                -------
           ]                |     |
           ]                |     |
  socket   =    ----------- |     |		+ = rivet onto plastic
           ]               )+     |                 holder
           ]            --- |     |
           ]                |     |
           ]                |     |
           ]                |     |
  socket   =    ----------- |     |
           ]               )+     |
           ]            --- |     |
           ]                |     |
           ]                |     |
           ]                -------

       panel               plastic cartridge holder

    

    	If you have any calcium in your water at all, over time, it
    solidifies on the heating elements. The constant heating and cooling
    causes a shell like substance to form on the element, crack off, and fall 
    to the bottom.
    
    	Over time, these shell like debris can collect all the way up to
    the bottom of the lower element. When/if this happens, the lower
    element is unable to dissipate its heat into the water. This causes the
    lower element to run much longer and hotter than it was designed. This
    will also cause the breaker/fuse to heat up beyond what is was designed
    to handle.
    
    	If this is your problem, the only way I've seen to correct it is to
    drain the tank, pull out the bottom element, and use a wet/dry vac to
    suck the shell like pieces from the bottom of the tank. You will likely
    have to connect a make-shift attachment of a piece of garden or radiator
    hose because the wet/dry vac hose will usually not fit in the element hole.
    
    	Even better would be if you could remove the drain valve at the
    bottom and vacuum it out from that point, but that may be a bit tougher
    to remove. Usually the chips are too large to pass through the drain
    valve at the bottom, so simply flushing the tank won't do it.
    
    	This may or may not be your problem, but it is consistant with your
    symptoms. If you pull an element and see a calcified build-up on it, it
    very well could be the cause of your problem. It also takes years to
    build the debris up to the height of the lower element.
    
    	Ray

    re:-1
    
    	BTW - If this is your problem, it will take forever to drain the
    heater. What I'd suggest is draining it down to the top element,
    remove the top element, then use a hose to siphon the rest of the water
    out.
    
    	This will save you a couple of hours. Also, if you wind up having
    to do this, plan on spending a good 4-6 hours to drain it, clean it
    out well, put it back together, and clean up the mess.
    
    	Ray

>  Right now I can't imagine how that loose rivet could cause resistance

	    You're right... it can't.  I thought the rivet was holding the
	blade to the fuse clip (metal to metal).

					Tim

    This happened to me about once a year and the solution was to drain the
    tank.  I guess with well water the minerals cause a problem.  Worked
    for me!
    
    

    

       Yesterday, I noticed that our hot water was extremely hot!  The 
       tank is a 50 gallon electric tank.  Both temperatures are set to 
       120.  I don't know how old the tank is.  We've been in the house 
       for only 2 1/2 years.

       I had read in a previous note that the solution to this problem 
       is to replace the upper element thermostat.  Does this seem to 
       work?  Any other ideas ...

    

    	A little late but...
    
    	In a two element electric water heater, the upper thermostat being
    on prevents the lower one from coming on. Either thermostat can
    overheat the water, so you need to isolate which is the problem.
    
    	Since hot water rises and the output comes from the top of the
    tank, you can actually disconnect the lower element and run with just
    the top one, for a day or so, to see if this is the cause of the
    problem.
    
    	If the water is still very hot with the lower element disconnected,
    the problem is with the upper thermostat and should be replaced.
    Otherwise, the lower thermostat is the culprit.
    
    	This probably goes without saying but, ALWAYS TURN THE BREAKER TO
    THE WATER HEATER OFF BEFORE WORKING ON IT. 
    
    	Ray

    3 times in the last month several gallons of water came out the relief
    valve of my water heater and flooded the basement.  The heater is 8
    years old and this never happened before.  Anyone know what causes it?
    Do I need a new relief valve?
    
    Dave
    

It would seem to me that that's a sign that an element is overheating and
causing the water to boil and increase the internal pressure in the tank.
While I'm unsure, it could be a sign of a bad/failing thermostat.

The relief valves do fail, though.  It's generally recommended that you
test them once a month, but I don't know of anyone who actually does this!
They're fairly straightforward to replace.

				Steve

    re:37
    	
    	Last time that happened to me it was a thermostat. The trick is in
    finding which one is the culprit (assuming it isn't a faulty valve). Next 
    time it boils over take a voltage meter and put it across the elements. 
    The one that has 220v on it is the one connected to the bad thermostat. 
    BE CAREFULL as this is usually a 30-40amp circuit.
    
    	Just as an FYI, when the upper thermostat is on it doesn't allow
    the lower one to come on. If you have to replace an element, that
    would be a great time to clean out the bottom. I used a wet/dry vac
    attached to a piece of garden hose to do this. Just remove the lower
    element after the heater is drained and go in through that hole.
    
    	Also, it may be MUCH faster to siphon water out from the upper
    element hole (once you've drained it to below this point) than to try
    to empty it all from the drain at the bottom. This will depend on how 
    much junk is on the bottom. 
    
    	Ray

> The relief valves do fail, though.  It's generally recommended that you
> test them once a month, but I don't know of anyone who actually does this!

	How do you test the pressure relief valve on a domestic hot water
	heater?  I assumed the water in the tank even cold would be at
	the utility line pressure?

    
    "Testing" it generally means just lifting the lever to release
    a little water.  This just ensures that the valve is not clogged with
    crud and will operate when needed.  [Trouble is, when you do eventually
    get around to doing this, the *^#$&@ thing will usually not close
    properly and it'll drip until replaced. :-) ]

>     "Testing" it generally means just lifting the lever to release
>     a little water.  This just ensures that the valve is not clogged with
>     crud and will operate when needed.  [Trouble is, when you do eventually
>     get around to doing this, the *^#$&@ thing will usually not close
>     properly and it'll drip until replaced. :-) ]

	I do this every couple of weeks anyways because somewhere along
	the way I was told it was good to do to prevent mineral buildup
	or something.  Anyone know if this is true?

Re: .43

If you're using the pressure relief valve for this, no.  If you use the
drain valve at the bottom of the tank, yes.

				Steve

    Just replaced my pressure relief valve.  They have been doing some work
    in the neighborhood, and inadvertently hit some water lines. Had to cut 
    off water.  Basically a pressure surge must have resulted, which caused 
    a release of water at my tank. Relief valve kept dripping, even though
    it was very minimal.
    
    I called my buddy, who is a Gas company service person for many years.
    He told me I could tap the relief valve with the handle of a hammer, to 
    try and get the valve to seat properly, however, if it did not, replace
    it.
     
    I mentioned that my literature on the tank said to test the relief
    valve, and drain off the bottom to reduce sediment buildup about once a
    year.  He said he never heard of testing the relief valve, and
    suggested not even opening the bottom drain.  It is true that opening
    the drain will help get rid of the buildup, and basically increase the
    life of the tank.   Nevertheless, the possibility of getting sediment 
    caught in the valve, and when the valve is closed not seating properly,
    is always there.
    
    Basically, he said doing the checks cause more problems then they cure.
    However, if you are mechanically inclined, and do not mind changing 
    valves from time to time, it will help lengthen the life of your water
    heater.  If you are not mechanically inclined, your going to have to 
    call a service person more often.
    

    if he 'never heard of testing the relief valve' he must never have read
    the "Owner's Manual" for a water heater or the little tags or labels
    that come on them.
    
    ed

    I'm not sure where to put this because I don't know yet if these
    are water heater problems or some other plumbing problems, but here
    goes ...
    
    I have several of what I'll call "oddities" about taking showers at
    my new place.  For the record, the house is 18 years old and I assume
    most, if not all, of the plumbing is original.  I can't tell how old 
    the water heater is, but it's electric.
    
    First, I'm having trouble getting enough hot water for a long shower.
    I'd have to check the size of the tank (it's very inaccessible) but
    it's big.  The house is a 3 bedroom (actually 4 with one unfinished)
    and the tank looks bigger than the one at my last place.  I never had
    this problem at my last place.  The home inspector claims the 
    temperature was only 110 degrees at the hot water faucet, but I'm not 
    sure the setting on the tank.  He claims that's an ok temperature.
    
    Second, and odder, is that if the water is too hot and I go to turn
    down the cold water, instead of getting warmer immediately, it goes
    ice cold.  The only solution I've come up with so far is that if the 
    temperature needs adjusting I have to turn the cold water all the way 
    off and then ease it on again to the correct temperature.  Note that
    there are separate controls for hot and cold water.
    
    This is very annoying.  
    
    Any ideas for diagnosing and/or fixing these problems?
    
    I've been reading through the notes on water heaters and will check
    the temperature at the tank, try to find out how old the tank is, etc.
    But other than that I don't know what to look for, especially for the
    second problem.
    
    Thanks for any help you can give,
    Karen.

    Do you have separate hot/cold faucets on the shower?  If so, the
    insides may need replacing.  The faucets on my bathtub were doing
    strange things until I replaced the cores.  The "modern" shutoffs
    for bathtubs and such have designs that in theory don't require
    you to crank down on a washer to shut off the water.  I think the
    idea is that the water pressure holds the washer against the seat
    and opening the faucet pushes it off.  When new they work fine, but
    they can get crudded up with minerals and stuff so they don't always
    respond as expected.
    
    If they are of that type, you can unscrew the inside and the whole
    works comes out as a unit.  Take it with you when you go looking
    for a new one, as there are about a gazillion different patterns
    that all look almost the same.
    

    My guess would be that you have 2 different problems....I agree with -1
    that possibly the faucets need new insides. Also, when you check your
    water heater, see if there are 2 access panels. Many water heaters have
    upper and lower heaters...if one is off or not functioning, you may
    run out of hot water even if the tank is very large.

    Does it do the same thing in all the bathrooms? If so, the heater
    clearly has a problem. It's unlikely (but possible, I admit) for all
    the valves to screw up the same way at the same time....
    
    

    	The fact that the tank is very inaccessable makes it somewhat more
    likely that it was neglected. This is likely the cause of the first
    problem.
    
    	If you are reasonably handy, it's fairly simple to check the
    elements out. The safest way is to turn the power off to the water
    heater, remove the access panel covers, disconnect one of the two 
    wires going to the element and ohm them out. If you have no continuity 
    the element is blown. You can get a lifetime guarenteed element for
    about $15.
    
    	If the elements ohm out OK, they still could be all crudded up with
    calcium deposits. The only way to clean them is to drain the tank and
    remove them. If you do this, you will need replacement gaskets the 
    elements.
    
    	Somewhere in here I outlined how to do all this once before. If you
    can find that note it has a bit more detail. If not, send me some mail
    off-line and I'll see what I can do.
    
    	As for the other problem, it sounds like the person that suggested
    replacing the guts for the faucet is right on the money.
    
    	Ray

    Thanks for all the suggestions.  
    
    >> Somewhere in here I outlined how to do all this once before. If you
    >> can find that note it has a bit more detail.
    
    Thanks, I found the note and printed it out yesterday.  I hope to look
    into this this weekend when I have some time.  The water heater is
    behind an access panel in a closet which is currently full of boxes
    so I'll have to move things around a bit to get to it.
    
    As for the faucets, I think you're right.  I tested the other faucets
    in the house and can't reproduce the problem anywhere but in the
    shower.  I have another shower downstairs that I haven't used yet due
    to it not having a curtain rod or door.  I'll put up a rod so I can use
    that before dismantling the existing faucet, just in case it takes me
    more than a day to find the correct innards.
    
    Thanks a lot!
    
    Karen.

    re: .52
    Optimistically, there are individual shutoffs for the lines to the
    different fixtures....
    

    I'm told that that's current code but it wasn't 18 years ago.
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    >> Optimistically, there are individual shutoffs for the lines to the
    >> different fixtures....
    
    Yes, that's what I was hoping.  Hm, well, I'll find out I guess!
    
    Thanks,
    Karen.

Re: .56

You're not wrong.  It may be a bit longer for electric heaters, a bit
shorter for gas.

				Steve

re .56:

>    - I was under the impression that the average "lifetime" for a water
>    heater was circa 10 years. Is this wrong?

From one data point that sounds about right.  The copper water pipes feeding my
water heater appear to have been made from several short scrap pieces joined by
straight couplings.  When I bought the house the home inspector noticed this
and said what really probably happened was each time they replaced the heater
they cut the pipe, removed the pipe attached to the old heater and reused it on
the new heater, reattaching the cut with a new straight coupling. There are 5
such couplings on each of the hot and cold lines, so the existing heater is the
6th one, and the house is about 56 years old. 

-Mike

    It all depends.  My electric water is about 27 years old, doing fine.
    

    Electric water? You must get a real charge out of showering.

The gas water heater was in my house when I bought the place in '78 and 
it's still working fine.  I have no idea how long it'd been there before I 
bought the place.

    It really depends on you water quality and how you take care of the
    beast.  Hard water can destroy the water heater.  Never draining it or
    playing with the pressure relase valve doesn't help especially if the
    water has iron in it.  If it has a metal base and sits right on a
    concrete floors, dampness may cause the bottom to rust out.
    
    Your water heater will, with similar care, last about the same time
    as your neighbors'.
    
    ed

>The gas water heater was in my house when I bought the place in '78 and 
>it's still working fine.  I have no idea how long it'd been there before I 

	    Must be a copper lined tank.  Glass lined, gas fired HW tanks
	don't hold up to the stress so well.  I don't think you can buy 
	copper lined tanks anymore... not enough $$$ in replacements, I
	bet.

					Tim

    If you have a house that has plumbing you're nervous about, is it
    ok to turn off the water at the supply while leaving the electricity
    on to the water heater? I don't want to have to wait for the water
    to heat up again when I turn it back on.
    
    If the water somehow leaks out of the tank and isn't replaced, what
    happens?
    
    Doug.

    re:47
    
    	I have a 40 gal. 2-element State brand electric hot-water heater
    that I just drained, cleaned, and refilled using well water (read
    cold). It took about 15 minutes for both elements to turn off when I
    powered it back on after the refill, which means that's how long it took 
    to come up to temperature.
    
    	If the tank springs a leak with the water off and the electricty on, 
    when the water drops below the elements the elements will burn out with no 
    water around them. Of course, the tank will be no good anyway, but you may 
    have been able to remove the elements for use as spares. 
    
    	Also, I'd be more worried about 40 gal. of water all over the place
    than losing an element. Why are you that worried about it ? A 40 gal.
    hot water heater can be had for around $200, and they're pretty easy to
    install. If you're that worried about it, perhaps the $200 is worth the
    piece of mind ?
    
    	Ray

    What I'm worried about is some OTHER leak in the house filling the
    entire house, yard, and neighborhood with water during a week that
    I'm away. If I turn off the water I minimize that chance. The question
    is whether or not to turn off the electricity to the water heater
    as well.
    
    I guess the best thing would be an alarm that detects "more than
    five minutes of continuous water flow" or something like that...
    
    Doug.

    	For the 15 minutes or less that it will take to heat the water back
    up, you'd be better off turning the power off too. Especially if you were 
    going to be away for a week or more.
    
    	You'll actually have hot water in about 5 minutes or so, after you
    turn it back on. So in the time it takes you to unpack, you'll have hot 
    water. The 15 minutes was for a 40 gal tank full.
    
    	Ray

    
    After reading throu this string I have a few questions.
    
    1. How do I know how many elements my electric water heater has?
    2. If it only has one can I still use a timer?
    
    And one slightly unrelated question. All the units where I live was
    built about 6 years ago and about three hot water heaters have died
    fairly recently so would it make sense to preempt the disaster of a
    leaking HWH and just replace the current one? What causes them to rust
    out? High usage or low usage? I know that the ones that broke has
    fairly high usage, lot of kids and so on. Mine on the other had has
    probably one had moderate usage until I bought the place..
    
    /Peter

    	Looking at the hot water heater, you'll see either one or two
    removable panels. Behind each panel is a thermostat and an element.
    Unless you have a really small hot water heater (15-20 gal.), you most
    likely have 2 elements.
    
    	There are a couple factors that determine when a HWH will go. The
    quality of the HWH and the water itself (i.e. acidic water vs. neutral 
    PH) are probably the two biggest factors. Flushing the unit occasionally
    doesn't hurt either. Not sure if usage would be that much of a factor
    regarding leaks. It would put more wear and tear on the elements and
    thermostats, but I don't see where in would cause any significant
    difference in the tank life.
    
    	If the units you speak of in the other houses are exactly the same 
    as yours, and they are going, it is definitely something to consider.
    If all other factors are the same (barring manufacturing defects),
    yours may not be too far behind.
    
    	Ray