Conference 7.286::home_work

    I would like to build a 2 car garage addition to my house.  What
    do one of those beauties cost if you have all the work done?  I'd
    also like to know what it would cost to have someone do the foundation
    and me to finish the rest - what would be the cost of the materials
    and the foundation?

    I'M JUST NOW FINISHING UP ON A 2 CAR DETACHED GARAGE I STARTED LAST
    YEAR.  THE FOUNDATION FOR 22X26 COST ME $1100 PLUS $800 TO FLOAT
    A 4.5INCH FLOOR.  I CONSTRUCTED A GAMBRELLE BARN STYLE WITH A LARGE
    LOFT AREA AND I USED FLOOR TRUSSES TO ELIMINATE THE CENTER POSTS
    AND BEAMS.  MATERIAL COST IS AROUND $5000  FOR A TOTAL COST OF $6900.
    	THIS GARAGE WOULD PROBABLY COST $15000 TO 18000 IF YOU HAD THE
    WORK DONE. THIS IS A ROUGH ESTIMATE GOING BY WHAT I'VE SEEN IN MY
    AREA.
    
    P.S. I USED CEDER SIDING OVER PLYWOOD, YOU COULD NOCK OFF ABOUT
    600 IF YOU USE TEXTURE 1-11 SIDING.
    
    

    Where is a good source of garage plans? I have seen house plans
    in newspapers, lumber yards, etc., but not garage plans.
    
    I have a salt box house and want to build a salt box style garage.
    
    Thanks,
    Bob...
    

    re .2	There are plan books, same as for house plans, but they
    (the plans) are quite a lot cheaper.  Last one I saw was in a rack at a
    builders'_supply/lumber_yard, they also had the plan packs themselves
    in the same rack.  I think the book of sketches was $3.95 and the plans
    were ~$8.95 (this is a real guess) each. 
    
	Now for the bad news, you are on PSGVAX, which is in Stow Mass.,
    I saw these at Prouty and Miller in Newport Vermont while on vacation
    this year.  Its right up near the Canadian border.  If you don't
    have any luck locally you could call these people and try to deal
    with them by mail, at least to get the sketches book,  call
    (802)-555-1212 for their number.  You may have to convince Prouty
    and Miller that you are planning to build in their area to get full
    cooperation, a garage for your summer home, right ?
    
    	Reg
    

    I've seen displays with both house and garage plans at Intersate
    Building Supplies (Southwick Ma.) and Oconnell Lumber (Westfield
    Ma.), where I purchased my garage plan and materials.   I don't
    remember the address of the company that puts out the plans but
    if I remember to get it tonight I'll post it here tomarrow.
    
    					Guido

    re .2   Somerville lumber (at least the Somerville store - I'm not
    sure about the Westboro store) has a carousel rack of plans for
    all sorts of things including garages.  I spent about 20 minutes
    in their "lumber" line last Sunday reading a set for a 2 car garage
    with loft.
    
    
    Kevin

    Re: .2
    
    I have seen an ad for garage plans in Fine Homebuilding and Yankee
    Mag. from an architect/engineer company called Eli Townshend and
    Son.  They have several illustrations in the ad which include a
    saltbox house and I think matching garage (1-3 cars I think).  In
    FH it is a small ad toward the rear of the magazine.  In Yankee
    I guess it could be anywhere.  Anyway, I thought the garage
    illustration was rather attractive.
    
    Marty
    

    
    
    Re: .2
    
    
    		National Plan Service inc.
    		435 W. fullerton Ave
    		Elmhurst, Illinois   60126
    
    
    
    There "600" series garage plans @ $15.00 ea.   The plans are extensive
    and easy to read.  They include a list of materials and instructions.
    
    Design #669 is a 2 car Saltbox style garage.
    
    
    					Guido

    Thanks for all the responses, looks like there is good deal of plans
    available.
    
    Bob...
    

    We are in the process of deciding to build a 2 car garage and
    have estimated a cost of approximatly $6000.  The foundation will
    
    cost about 1100 and then you can proceed with your own labor.
    Keep in mind that it is nearing the winter, you may want to 
    put it off until spring.  
    A work of caution:  
    Look into your zoning variances in your town and make 
    certain that you are in compliance with the zoning 
    by laws.  We were denied a variance for our garage (that
    is another story and belongs in a file called 
    "politics") and have resigned ourselves to locating the garage else-
    where on our property.  Besides knowing your zoning laws, have
    your property properly surveyed and have the survey registered.
    You can get this done for anywhere from $300 to $1500.  If you
    can afford it, the comfort in knowing your property lines
    is worth it's weight in gold.
    Another word of caution:
    Have a GOOD foundation set!  Spend the time to find a 
    quality craftsman that will provide you with the best 
    foundation possible.  It is worth the effort, as everything
    runs smoothly when you start the project with a quality
    foundation that you can trust.
    That's as far as we've gone,  I think that the excavator will
    arrive at our house within 2 weeks - we'll have a busy time
    from there.
    Good luck......

    Peter,
    
    I know of a couple people putting in various types, shapes and sizes
    of garages.  They are all having the work done for them.  The prices
    range from $15-35K, single car to double with room above plus breezeway.
    
    Just some hints that I learned which I thought would be worth
    mentioning.  Make sure the floor that you pour is 3000lb. or heavier
    concrete mix.  Concrete comes in various mix weights, the heavier being more
    bucks.  I would recommend using a highly recommended Forms Contractor
    to make sure the walls and floor is done right. Ask the local lumber
    yard for recommendations.  They deal with the local carpenters/builders
    all the time and get word of who's good and who's bad!   
    
    Use at least eight inch thick walls.  The  amount of concrete in a
    garage can shift in all directions with frost and improper
    installation.  Make sure your base (ground you are going to pour over)
    has settled properly.  Im not sure the right combo, but I would go with
    4-6" of gravel/stone combo.  If you bring in the gravel/stone, wet it
    down a number of times to settle the stuff before the contrator pours
    the floor.  Make sure there is proper drainage around the garage.
    Water that gets in under an uninsulated garage floor can heave BAD!
    You might consider a drain in the center of the garage floor for
    shedding melted snow and cleaning the floor of grease after working on
    the car.  Consider using the area above for storage....put in a
    disappearing stairway with a plywood walk way on the ceiling joists.
    One last thing is to put in a heavy wire mesh or ribar (sp?)
    when pouring the floor.
                                
    Just some thoughts to consider!....ROB

    RE .10
    
    > Make sure the floor that you pour is 3000lb. or heavier 
    >concrete mix.  Concrete comes in various mix weights,
    
    Uh, I think you are talking about the concrete's pounds-per-square-inch
    (PSI) rating, not the actual weight of the concrete.  The difference
    between 3000 lb. and 4000 lb. concrete is the amount, grading and
    quality of aggregate, not necessarily the weight.  
    
    You're right about needing 3000 lb. concrete for a garage floor.
    (at least in Virginia; I don't know anything about New England
    building codes...  Heck, we didn't even have basements where I was!)
    
    
    John B.

    RE .9
    
    Check local building codes. It may be illegal to install a drain
    in a garage floor due to chemical runoff.
    
    Nick

    I don't think he was talking about 3000 lb as the weight of the
    concrete.  (At least not the way I read it).
    
    The code in MA doesn't specify which weight concrete to use
    for a floor.  3000lb is easer to get a smooth surface on and
    it doesn't crack as easily as 2000 or 2500 lb.
    

    Just to clarify my thoughts, I was refering to the durability of the
    concrete not the actual weight.  Not to go into any detail,
    concrete is mixed in various ways.  Builders I talk to recommend a 
    3000 lb. mix for flooring.  Just out of curiousity, does anyone no what
    concrete costs these days?  Five years ago I got it for $42.00/yard!
    
    As for drains in a garage, my neighbor is putting one in his new
    garage addition he is building now.....no code in Mass. that prohibits
    it that I know of.  I thought it was a great idea!
    
    ROB

    I bought concrete last week from Keating in Lunenburg, MA.
    The prices were:  $49 for 2000lb, $51 for 2500lb, and I think
    (but I'm not sure), $53 for 3000lb.  
    

    Rather than having a drain, simply slope the garage floor toward
    the front and center.  Much less of a hassle and works just as
    effectively.
        
                                        August G. Reinig

>               Problems:
           
 >          	1. Termites???
  
    
2.  There are many other "bugs" in your wood. Earwigs are a frequent
    visitor in firewood. My woodpile is outside under a porch and I left 6
    inches between my woodpile and the exterior basement wall so I could
    spray for bugs.
                   
3.  Wood needs good air circulation to dry. If it is green, wood will
    not dry properly without good air circulation.  If it is fully dried,
    wood will start to rot without good air circulation.    
                                                        
If you do put it in the garage, make sure you:    
                                                        
      a) keep it off the floor -- skids/pallets work well
      b) leave at least 6 inches from all walls
      c) plan to spray for earwigs, termites, etc
      d) stack it in alternating rows for good air circulation.
                                               
                                               
    If I had it to do over, I would put the wood pile out in the yard
    as the bugs are just not worth it.         
                                               
    Good luck!                                 
    
  

By all means keep it in the yard! I keep my pile (6 cords) stacked near 
the house by a cellar window, about 5 feet from the foundation. When 
it's time to get wood into the house, I remove the window and toss it 
in! I also keep it covered when snow season starts to help keep it dry.

Problem with this is if there are any sleeping bug-a-boos in the wood, 
the warm basement wakes them up and I have to constantly watch for 
infestations. The upside is I don't usually have more that two to three 
days worth of wood inside the house.

Also, when KRYSTL::STOVES is back on-line, you might peruse that 
conference for more hints on wood storage...

Chris

    The rule I've seen in many places: keep woodpiles and untreated
    wood (like wood chips --a/k/a untreated mulch -- you get cheaply/free
    from folks clearing land) a minimum of 4 feet from any part of your
    house. 

      My inlaws have put wood in their attached garage for years.
      The cautions are - inspect each piece for carpenter ants & termites.
    		       - use garage wood storage only in the winter
    			 months.
		       - remove all excess wood in the spring and clean
    			 up the storage area. Inspect for insect damage

    A suggestion I have is to put the wood on heavy gauge plastic. 
    I would think this would help prevent C-ants T-mites that hide in
    the wood from having easy access to your garage.
    I don`t have a garage, but every fall I move a fair amount of wood
    to the end of my deck then cover it for easy access - especialy after 
    snow.  Then in spring I move any excess to the back yard.
    
    						Rich M.
    

  I am in the planning stages for a two car (attached) garage that I 
want to build next summer. I have not had much luck finding good written 
material on the subject. Can anyone recommend a good book on the subject.
Sunset books (sold at most lumber yards) has a series of them dealing with
many different topics (like how to build a deck....I used this one it was
very good) but not garages.

Any suggestions ?

Thanks, Pat.

    I have just completed a two-car attached garage that I did myself.
    
    I picked up a book a GV Moore Lumber called 'BASIC CARPENTRY' but
    it really explains most of the operations that are required for
    the project. Framing, Foundation, Roofing, Siding, etc. It was
    absolutly the bext 5.95 I spent.
    
    They also had off-the-shelf blueprints there and they served as
    my guide. I found a two car stand alone print and then sat down
    for a few days and modified it for use as an attached garage.
    I rotated the roofing rafters to match my house, I extended the
    8-foot walls to 10-foot, and I put a single 16-foot door in instead
    of two narrow ones.
    
    The whole project was REALLY quite reasonable. I suggest that you
    have help for a few of the larger tasks, but  in actuallity, I
    did the ENTIRE project by myself! (Including raising the
    wall panels and roofing rafters!)
    
    Good luck.
    
    
    Mark
    

    When I built my garage over the last 2 years I used a book prepared
    by the U.S. Bureau of Naval Personnel entitles "Basic Construction
    Techniques for Houses and Small Buildings".  This includes every
    thing from the foundation to finish work.  I did everything myself
    including laying a concrete block foundation.  I used premade trusses
    for the roof and that saves a lot of work and removes the need for
    any lalley (?sp) columns in the garage.
    
    Marty
    
           
         

  	re .2         

>>>    When I built my garage over the last 2 years I used a book prepared
>>>    by the U.S. Bureau of Naval Personnel entitles "Basic Construction
>>>    Techniques for Houses and Small Buildings".  


	I have to second the recommendation for this book.  When I built
	my house two years ago, this was the book that I relied on the
	most.  Very informative on all aspects of building from concrete
	work right through to finish work.

	-gary

    Can you provide any ordering information on this book? Is it available
    from the Govt Printing Office in Washington? How is the book identified?

re -.1

I bought the book at Garden Way when it still existed.  I have seen it at
other good book stores in the past.  Tonight I will dig it out and get you
the publisher, author and other info so that you could order it at your
local book store.  It is well worth having in your library.  I have loaned
mine out several times to folks here in BTO who were doing one project or
another.

-gary

    The nest for the termintes found in my last house was located in
    the wood pile over 20 feet from the house.My pile is now over 50'
    from my current house.
    ed
    

    I bought mine from Publishers Central Bureau which is a catalog
    place that has random books (and now videotapes) for sale.  I
    just got a new catalog last night the and construction book doesn't
    seem to be listed any more.  I was looking at my copy last night
    and noticed that the publisher is Dover books.  If .5 doesn't get
    more details on the book I will try too.
    
    Marty
                                         

    More detail on the book.
    
    BASIC CONSTRUCTION TECHNIQUES FOR HOUSES AND SMALL BUILDINGS SIMPLY
    EXPLAINED.  Prepared by Bureau of Naval Personal.  Published by
    Dover Publications, Inc., 180 Varick St., N.Y., N.Y. 10014.
    
    Dover number:  20242-9 Paperbound
    
    Marty
                  

    I just called Dover Pub's
    
    Send $8.95 + .85 p&h to:
    
    	Dover Publications, Inc.
        31 East Second St.
        Mineola, NY 11501
    
    Request the book (Basic Construction Techniques ... (ad infinitum))
    with Dover Number (20242-9 paperback).  The book will be sent Fourth
    class book rate.
    
    Any one wishing to call Dover, the number is 212-255-3755.
    
    

    I have BIG puddles in my garage.
    
    My husband & I drove home last night through snowy roads, and parked
    the cars in the garage.  Well, after that snow melted, we realized
    we have a problem.  I guess garages are supposed to be sloped so
    that any water flows out the door.  Our floor is not sloped at all.
    We have several low spots, one right at the entrance to the house.
    
    Has anyone else had this problem and solved it ?  We speculated
    that we could spread another layer of cement over the floor and
    slope it appropriately, but we're afraid that it wouldn't really
    adhere to the old floor, and would crack after some short period
    of time.  
    
    Any advice is appreciated.

    .0 - Exactly. Unless you use something more than 'thin' layer
    	it will not adhere and WILL crack rapidly. You would actually
    have to approach 4-inches thickness to provide a suitable
    long-term solution. Some builders say 3-inches some say 6-inches.
    
    Mark
    

     Even 'sloped' floors don't really drain. They just keep the water
    from going where it shouldn't. To get the water to actually drain
    you'd need a pretty good pitch. Even a bathtub has water clinging to
    the sides/bottom after it has emptied.

    My garage slopes down going in and there's a drain in the center
    so water can't collect. Have you thought of installing a drain?
    Sounds simpler than an extra layer of cement.

    5A thin layer of concrete will crack, and will not give enough pitch
    to do any good.  The idea in .-1 for a drain is good, but that is
    a lot of work, and means (probably) some amount of digging in the
    yard (and therefore punching through the foundation wall) to bring
    out the drainpipe.  It is not legal to tie a drain into the sewage
    system.                                                      
    
    A compromise is to dig/have dug a sort of trough away from the door
    area where you have the puddles.  Your slab is almost certainly
    4", and there is no problem digging up part of that.  I wouldn't
    go down more than 2"; in fact if you did you would never get the
    water to move away, since the other end would be below the level
    of the floor (general rule on sloping to get water to more on its
    own is 1/4 inch vertical drop per 1 foot of horizonal run.
    
    Doing the digging is the hard part, since it is usually done with
    an impact hammer/drill.  You can rent one at most Taylor's Rentals,
    and some of the U-Hall rentals.  Don't forget the goggles.
    
    good luck
    -reed
    

    The solution my parents have used for about 30 years: a push broom.
    Just sweep the water out the door.
    
    Steve

    I once saw someone use a Masonary Saw blade to cut a narrow long
    slice into the cement to allow water to channel itself down below
    the 'surface' and out to a lower point. Looked real clean, cut was
    about 1-inch at one end and 3/8-inch at the other end which allowed
    him to create a nice slope out. As an aside, it gave a good stress
    break point/seam which is always nice in a garage floor.
    (Look at a garage floor without stress break seams, 99.9% have a
    crack or two)
    
    Mark

    All the replies have value; but what if the garage has settled so
    that what used to be the trough is now the ridge of the floor? It
    is especially noticiable since our house is built on sandy soil.
    
    With settling of the foundation, the nice 3/4" trough is now the
    ridge of the floor. I don't get that much water on the garage floor
    but the edges of the garage door use to seal the weather out but
    now, either edge of the door has a half inch crack. My project list
    calls for a shim to the door seal to bring it in contact with the
    floor.
    
    Any advise?
    
    /cal hoe

    Another fix I have seen used along the same lines as a drain is
    to drill a 6" diameter hole in the floor at the low spot, use a
    post hole digger and go down about 3 feet, fill with course gravel
    to about 6" below surface, install drain cover plate in garage floor,
    let water drain into hole.  If hole is near outer wall, this method
    is *NOT* recommended!!!

    I'm planning on adding a deck to a U-shaped house, with the deck
    fitting between the legs of the U.  Since the deck will be about
    6-1/2 feet above ground, I'd like to put a car under it.  Problem
    is, water from rain and snow will fall on the car.  Is there a good
    way to combine the features of a deck and a garage?  What about
    putting sloping plastic sheeting under the deck to help carry away
    the water?  Any ideas?
    
    Dave Van Cleave  DTN 264-0861

I saw (somewhere) a neat design for a "deck over patio" situation where they
used those wavy fiberglass sheets (Filon?) as a roof *under* the deck.  This
kept the patio underneath dry.

Maybe an adaptation of that idea would work for you...it's lightweight, easy to 
handle and relatively inexpensive (I think!)

FWIW...						--Mike

    My dad did one of these a few years(2-3) ago. Came out pretty neat.
    He used Galvanize sheet metal under the floor of the deck. The end
    closest to the house is 2" higher than the other side, to force
    the water to drain where he wanted it.
    Washing the deck off also cleaned out the leaves and other stuff.
    
    If you need or want more details of what he did let me know, I'm
    going back there soon and can note the details.
    
    Mark

    Check local codes, because you are building an attached structure,
    the local building codes may cause you some grief if you don't check
    it out first. We added a deck to the front of our house and the
    plan was to have a hand rail around it. The code forbid attached
    structures with a rail around but a seat/rail 18" above the deck
    is ok. Glad that I checked it out prior to building the deck.
    
    /cal

    When I built my deck, I had several supports in the middle (about where
    you plan to park your car).  Therefore, as mentioned in -.1, be sure
    you check the local codes, and be prepared to use heavier joists to
    carry the extra load that the middle supports might ordinarily handle. 

    Tom

    We'll be having a deck built (app. 13x40) and plan to use it as
    a carport also.  I included in the plans the rippled fiberglass
    stuff nailed to increasingly thick furring so that water will drain
    where I want it to and I hope it will work out OK.
    
    I heard this past weekend that there is more than one grade of PT
    lumber available - does anyone know what I should specify in my
    contract to avoid warping and cupping a lower grade might suffer?
    
    Thanks,
    Pete

I just re-read your problem.  I thought about doing something similar a while
back.  I was going to put a deck on top of a roof over a walkout cellar.
What you need is a deck over a roof over the car.  Rain and what not falls 
through the deck and the roof directs the runoff.  You can't completely seal
the deck so why not leave 1/4" gaps like normal and use a 'roof' under to 
protect the car.

Now how to support the roof/deck.  Build a standard roof support structure as if
the deck were not going to be there.  you're not going to be able to pitch it
very much though.  On top of the roof you put tapered PT joists so that the 
bottom follows the pitch of the roof and the top is level to support the deck.
The kicker is that the joists nailed through the roof must go through a 
waterproof membrane that will remain flexible.  A neighbor of mine was going
to get me some TREMCO.  It's a waterproof gel-like (much like silicon caulk)
that will remain flexible and reseal around the nails.  There was an article
in home handyman about 2 yrs ago that described precisely what you need.  The 
thing they did must be installed by pros.  TREMCO was gonna run me about $50-75
a 5 gal bucket.  I figured on about 1 1/2 buckets to cover a 14 x 19 foot area.

I'll dig up the article and xerox it for ya.

I'm putting in some shelving in my garage and plan to hang them from the ceiling
(good way to avoid posts).  What I want to do is use some type of rod to secure
them.  I've seen threaded rods at SPAGS (of course) but they're only 4 feet long
(or were they 3 feet?).  I need something 5 feet long.  My question is simply
where is a good place to get them?  Furthermore, since I don't really need to
have them threaded all the way and since I can easily tap a "blank" rod myself,
does anyone know where to get them?

-mark

    I second the splicers.   They're easy and you don't have to get
    anything special made.
    
    
    I, for one, would NEVER want to thread a 5' long rod by hand.
    
    
    -bill

    I just bought some 6' X 3/8 threaded rod at Plywood Ranch.
    
    					Kenny

re:-1  	Normally i WOULD use 2X4's except that the people who built my garage 
	thought it would look nicer if they plastered the walls and ceiling.
	They were right, it DOES look nicer, but people don't live in garages!
	
	To secure 2X4's to the ceiling joists I'd have to either cut holes in the
	ceiling to pass them through or secure a plate to the ceiling and nail
	my 2X4's to that.  I just wanted a quick solution.

re: ??	I agree, threading a 5 foot rod would be nuts (pun intended).  However,
	since I'd only be using an inch to 2 on each end, it wouldn't really be
	that much.

-mark

    Stafford Iron....Worcester,MA.....near Webster Square.....has threaded
    rod.....all sizes .....all lengths.
    
    
    john mollica

    re .6
    
    Check you local code re fire-resistant sheetrock.  Every town differs.

    Sears has shelf brackets that look like this:
    
     |          |   /\
     |          |    |
     |          |    |
     |          |    | <-- view from side
     |          |    |
     |          |    |
     |          |    |
     \/--------\/    |

    They take a 1x10 or 12 (forgotten exactly which) and what you do
    is screw 2 eyebolts into the ceiling and hang these things.  They
    hang from each other to that they look rather like a ladder when
    viewed from the end and you slide your shelving in.  I have them
    in my cellar and garage with one run of supports for every four
    feet of shelf length.
    
    The advantage is that they don't touch the floor (in case it gets
    damp) and they're fast, easy, and cheap to put up and/or relocate.
    
    Pete

    Re: .1
    
    Spag's does carry the splicers for the threaded rod.  I think they
    are in the aisle right next to the threaded rod.  Right next to
    the drill and sanding accessories, of course.
    
    Sounds like the threaded rod idea would also give you a certain
    amount of adjustability in the shelves also.  Screw the nuts up
    or down and put the shelf in...

    re: .6
    
    In Mass. a detached garage doesn't require sheetrock.  Matter of
    fact, on an attached garage, only the garage walls/ceilings backing
    to a living space require sheetrock.   
          
    Jim
    

    I have a new attached garage. I plan on using Firerock (5/8 sheetrock)
    on one side of the Garage that faces the living area of the family
    room. Is this Ok?  Is it ok to firerock the wall that abuts the
    living area only?
    
    There is a room above the garage also. I imagine I will have to
    firerock the same wall up there even though it only abuts the 
    roof to the living space.
    
    I want to do the right thing but do not want to finish the 
    garage just yet.
    
    Your help is appreciated.

    We are just now ready to sheetrock our new attached garage.  The
    building codes vary, but our building inspector (lunenburg MA) 
    specified 5/8 firecode on the cieling of the garage and 5/8 firecode
    on the
    wall which abuts the living space.  We too have a room above the
    garage.
    
    Sounds like you're planning on the right stuff!
    
    Donna

    Do I have to firerock th ceiling of the garage?   or can I get by
    just puting the firecode board on the wall which abuts the 
    living space?
    
    Thanks

    It will depend upon local code.  In some parts of Connecticut, you
    would be required to firerock the entire garage (excluding the garage
    door).  For the difference in price ($.10-$.20 per sheet) it would
    be in your best interest to firerock the whole thing.
    
    My $.02...
    
    Dan

                As a rule of thumb, since the reason for the fire
        retardant material is to slow down the spread of fire from the
        garage to the living area, any place that the garage space abuts
        living space needs to be covered. Also any opening in that
        covering into a living space, like the door into the house,
        needs to be fire retardant as well.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
                
p.s. This is one place that the codes usually work out to be simple
        common sense written down in an obscure manner.

    The ceiling would probably need to be firerocked if the attic space
    above the garage is common with that above the living area. 
   BTW- Get plenty of help or build a jig to help you hold it up that
    5/8" is HEAVY stuff.
       
    -j
    

    
    	Firerock the whole thing, it's not that much more money and
    it sure would be a drag if the inspector said to take it down !
    
    	-Steve-
    

1) My concrete block foundation comes up 7 feet off the ground around the
garage wall - if I stored the wood outside near the wall, are the termite/ant
risks real?  True, its near the house, but only near a concrete block wall. 
Storing it  20-30' from the house is a bit inconvenient... 

2) Meaning well (I guess) the guy who cut down my dead pine put the logs in
the garage, can I safely assume that my bug-risk is low until it warms up
(hate to carry wood around in zero-degree weather) 

My own thoughts on this:

1. Try not to keep old wood around.  I buy enough for a season at a time,
   which for me is about two cords.  Unless I am running short, I buy it
   "green" and season it myself for a year, burning it the second year.

2. Store it outside.  I put it next to the house on the side of the garage
   and spray it once for bugs in the summer.  I live in a northern climate,
   and since my wood is never very old, I don't think I have as great a
   potential for infestation as many do.

3. Bring in only what you need.  I put about a weeks worth of wood in the
   garage. This avoids trips outside to the woodpile during the winter.
   A weeks worth for me is about 8-10 wheelbarrow loads.  I just stack it
   on the garage floor.

/Al

what do you spray it with?

RE: -1

Oh, just some old chlorinated hydrocarbon toxic waste!!

Actually, I don't remember offhand.  It's made by Ortho, comes in a gallon
jug with a hose and sprayer, and is called "Home Insect Control", or some
such.  It kills carpenter ants, termites, earwigs, wasps, and the like.

/Al

I was (that's was) thinking of adding a two car garage (basement level)
with family room over (1st floor level).  Three quotes ranged from 39k to
42k; is this high or am I out of touch with reality?

My original idea was to let a general contractor handle the subs since he
could get good quality out of them, but only 'til it's weathertight so I
could finish at my own slow pace. 

I realize this is a large addition (about 22 x 28) but this is for a
weathertight shell only.  It breaks down like this: 

3500 dig - this includes burying some old cement
7000 foundation - 3 sides and attached to basement
5000 retaining wall - 4 ft high tapering down and 20 ft? long
 900 garage floor - 
7500 mat'l and labor - i guess this is framing and sheathing
1000 garage doors - 
9000 doors and windows - 6 double hung, two picture, front door, back door, 
                         basement through-door
7000 siding and roof - i could do or sub out myself
----
41000

If I wanted it finished it would easily eclipse the cost of the house.

Has anyone done a similar job?  What's common on a cost per sq. foot basis? 
How do I adjust for the fact that 1/2 is garage, 1/2 is addition, and one's
on top of the other?  Could I save money by laying some out on a per hour
basis for some architectural advice? 

This is in Auburn, MA., just south of Worcester.
Thanks,
Craig

    I had a 20x24 addition put on last year. It's a two car garage below
    with a family room above. The family room has cathederal ceiling
    with 2 skylights(the roof was built with trusses),french door,
    4 tiltin isulating glass windows.
    	I just had it framed including windows,doors,skylights,roof
    shingles and it cost me 18K(weathertight). I did all the wiring,sheetrock
    finishwork,heat,etc for about another 3k. You can save BIG money by
    doing alot of the work yourself.
    
    This may give you an idea what your up against.
    Bob

    Keep shopping, those prices seem quite high for the Worcester County
    area. Last year I had added,
    
    1. 20x24 family room to the house with full basment, (4 8' high
    foundation walls)
    2. 24X25 garage attached to family room, (3 4' high walls)
    3. 26X9 addition to house, (3 8' high walls).
    
    Total foundation cost (concrete and labor to set forms and footings)
    for this project was $7000. I would expect your foundation to cost
    about 1/3 of mine. 
    
    The garage floor sounds high also. I had a 24X25 garage floor and
    a 20X20 cellar floor done for under $1000, materials and labor.
    The floor guy said he estimates $25 a yard for his labor and you
    buy the concrete. Figure the size of your garage times the depth
    of floor that you want (4" minumum, 6" would be nice) to get the
    number of yards of concrete that you'll need, it'll be somewhere
    between 7 and 10. Call and get the current price of concrete ($50-$60?)
    plus $25  times the number of yards you need. That should be your
    total cost for the floor.

    I put in TWO garage doors myself for about $550. Call Coldwells
    and get a price on Fimble garage doors.

    Charly

I just finished building a house, subbing out EVERYTHING myself.  I'll
try to give you a rough estimate on what each item cost me.

=======================================================================

3500 dig - this includes burying some old cement
>it cost me $2000. to have a cellar hole dug, this included clearing the
>the trees around the area.  I believe the actual dig was $1200. It was
>a four hour job.

7000 foundation - 3 sides and attached to basement
>Foundation cost (including footing) was $28.50 for 8' wall per lineal foot
>and $24.50 for a 4' wall per lineal foot.
>So in your case it would be 2 walls of 8' high; 2*(28)*28.50 = $1596
>Add one 4' wall ( garage door side ) 24.50*(22) = 539
>total cost $2135.  ( just an estimate mind you )
>It cost me $8200.00 to do my foundation, this was over 300 feet of 4' and
>8' wall.  Prices include labor and cement.

5000 retaining wall - 4 ft high tapering down and 20 ft? long
>Same calculation as for foundation 24.50*20 = $490

 900 garage floor - 
>$100 per yard, labor and materials.  You'll want a 4" slab so that
>figures to roughly 7.5 yards, cost $750.00.

7500 mat'l and labor - i guess this is framing and sheathing
>Framing prices run from $3.50 per sq.ft. to $4.00 per sq.ft.
>figuring the high price 22*28*(4.00) = $2464 for labor.  This does
>not include roofing ( shingles ) or siding.
>Materials that's a tough one.  Any good lumber yard should be able
>to give you a good estimate.  My guess is that you should not exceed
>$3000.00 for framing materials.

1000 garage doors -
>Two doors at $300/per door = $600. 
9000 doors and windows - 6 double hung, two picture, front door, back door, 
                         basement through-door
>A very tough estimate, depends on the size, type and so forth.  Give me
>sizes and I could be more specific.  I'll make some asumptions:
>Double hung 36" x 60"  $250/window    6*250 = $1500
>Picture window, fixed, no bow or bay, just striaght glass 72" x 60"  $450.00
>so a total of 2*450 = $900.00
>Doors, no slider,no patio,no glass, just a solid wood door @400.00   $1200.00
>Total doors & windows $3600.  This could vary greatly.  Adding Sliders
>half rounds, bay windows, can drive the price up much higher.

7000 siding and roof - i could do or sub out myself
>Siding using ceder clab boards $1.10/sq ft. for material 0.60/sq ft labor.
>Not deleting window space you come up with 3 sides and roughly 700 sq ft
>of exterior wall, figure 10% waste so 770 sq. ft.
>total cost 770*(1.70) = $1309.00 for siding labor & materials.
>Roofing, hard to figure because you did not give my type of shingle
>or pitch of roof, I'll figure 25 year shingle and a 12 pitch.
>Roughly 990 sq.ft.( 10% waste) at .70/sq ft labor & materials = $693.00 
----

Grand total
==========
Excavation  	$2000.00
foundation	$2135.00
ret. wall	$ 490.00
floor		$ 750.00
framing		$2464.00
material	$3000.00
G. doors	$ 600.00
Wind & doors	$3600.00
siding		$1309.00
roof		$ 693.00
		========
total	      $17,041.00	Cost per sq.ft. =$27.66
			 Completed cost should run @ $60 - $70 /sq.ft.
    
Now, I don't know the spcifics of your addition but these prices are fairly
close to what they cost me.  You can figure a %20 increase for a general
contrator, so you should spend @ $20k - $25k for general and any cost
over runs for the weather tight shell.

I hope this helps, if you have any questions, mail me.


Tony Grise
    

    How's this for a fun, do-it-yourself project?
    
    My garage is 55 years old, with a wood pillar foundation.  It has
    been badly damaged by insects - the foundation, not the garage.
     
    The garage CANNOT be knocked-down and replaced. House and garage
    are on 1/4 acre and the garage is too close to a property line to
    get a permit-to-build.
    
    However, the existing structure can be repaired without City Hall
    objecting.
    
    So:
    
    	Anyone out there have advice on how to lift a 12'x24' structure,
        repair sill damage, pour a new foundation, and replace the building
        without damage?

    This is not exactly DIY, but a garage inHaverhill was recently given
    a new foundation this way: professional rigger came in, drilled
    where appropriate, shored, stiffened, then lifted entire garage
    with a crane, putting it in backyard.  Foundation poured, rigger
    returned and put garage on new foundation.
    
    pbm
    

    Possible.
    
    Although by moving the garage and removing the foundation that might 
    constitute a new building as far as the city is concerned. (Hear
    about the restaurant on Rt 9 in Westboro which knocked down all
    but one wall, built around it, then removed that 'existing structure'
    when finished with the rest?)

    RE: .2
    
    I've seen that one before.  In Pittsburgh, a bank built a new building
    around a auto repair garage, then tore down the insides.  The people
    living around there were pissed, but the city could do nothing about
    it.
    
    
    Back to the subject.
    
    My father is doing just this with his old barns.  They were built
    with a hand-hewn beam lying on the ground.  The beam rotted, and
    the rest of the building was OK.  What he did was jack up the area
    around each of the main supports (I think there were 6) and then
    with a chainsaw, cut off the lower foot of the support.  Then he
    poured a footer, stacked some bricks/blocks up under the support,
    and set the building on it.  AFter this, he build a form around
    the beam, poured concrete to encase the bricks/support and was done.
    
    Worked like a champ.
    
    -bill

    I did something like this once.  My neighbor wanted to give the
    12x12 shed to my other neighbor.  (It was originally the cupola
    of a huge barn).  We jacked it up at 6 places, the we put the whole
    thing onto twos 4x6's (14 ft long) (just happened to be lying around...)
    Then we rolled it aside on planks and pipes.  Made a new foundation
    in the neighbors back yard, rolled the whole thing over there using
    more planks as a crude ramp.  We used several come alongs, trees
    and 4x4's for pushing it around.  Also, it was key to diagonally
    brace the structure on the inside to keep the walls spaced from
    each other properly the whole time.  Needs alot of big timbers to
    ddo this stuff.
    
    I wonder if those guys ever told the town hall about this project?

    
    >The garage CANNOT be knocked-down and replaced. House and garage
    >are on 1/4 acre and the garage is too close to a property line to
    >get a permit-to-build.
                     
    Are you *sure* that you cannot get a building permit???
    A friend of mine got a permit to replace an existing porch
    (that was rotting), even though the porch was too close to
    the neighbors property by current building codes.  Many
    building codes have grandfather clauses that permit this
    sort of thing.

    re .4:  My garage needs new sills and I figured while I was at it
    I'd move it as well and what you described was how I finally decided
    I'm going to attempt it.  I figure it only weighs about a ton to
    a ton and a half.  I'm very interested in more details about your
    project.  How many helpers did you have, how many come-alongs. 
    I figured I'd need the bracing and thought I might remove the windows.
    Are there any other gotchas you discovered?
    
    -Bob

    re: .3
    
    If anyone cares, THIS is the kind of stuff I LOVE to see in this
    conference.  REAL PRICES for a change.  It's so nice to know what things
    cost to temper those ideas rumbling around the backs of our heads.
    
    Thanks for the excellent information, Tony.
    
    -joet

    re .6:
    
    Well, let's see what else I can remember ...
    
    At anyone time the most we ever had was four people, although this
    was only for the initial and the final move steps.  The most tricky
    part, I think, was the ramps and whatnot on the ground to support
    the rollers.  I suppose that ramps etc. are not needed if you use
    really big rollers, say a 8-12 inch diameter, but for the 2" pipe
    we used a rolling surface was needed.  This surface was basically
    just some 2x6's and 2x8's laid on their sides.  They were supported
    with little 2x4 blocks in order to create the ramping effect and
    to prevent these boards from bending too much.  After we moved from
    one set of planks to another, we just picked up the last set and
    moved it ahead of the structure to create the next 14' or so of
    ramp.
    
    As far as tools, we had two come alongs, though we only used one
    at a time.  We used some chain and some long strong rope to hook
    them to trees.  The come alongs are probably the most dangerous
    aspect of the job since the tension in the lines can turn into a
    deadly whipping force if something lets go.  We also used, as I
    mentioned, a few 4x4's for levers to pry the thing along.  We would
    butt the end of the 4x4 into the ground and then pry against a braced
    spot in the structure.
    
    We jacked the building up with two house type screw jacks.  We
    positioned the ramps just outside the two opposite walls.  Then we
    lifted one end at a time and put a board under that end, but
    on top of the ramp.  Then we did the same at the other end.  By
    providing enough clearance with these blocks, we could fasten a
    big rigid timber along the bottom of these outside walls.  The studs
    were cut to even lengths to fit level on these timbers.  I think
    on one side we used a 4x6 and on the other side we used some sandwiched
    2x6's or 8's.  We just toenailed some #16 nails through the studs.
    Then we set the pipes under the timbers and lifted again to pull
    out the initial blocks.
    
    This job was fun for all and is not for the faint of heart.  You
    need a good strong back, though levers help, and you can't chicken
    out halfway.  Lots of communication between team members about every
    move kept us from squishing fingers and toes, too.
    
    The best part was the block party we had afterwards.
    

                     +----------------+
                    ++                ++
                   ++                  ++
                  ++    ROOF            ++
                 ++                      +-+
                 +-------------------------++
                 |                          |
                 |                          |
                 |                          |
                 |      GARAGE              |
                 |                          |
                 |                          |
                 |                          |
      |----------+--------------------------+--------------|  Pipes
      |--+------+-----------------------------+------+-----|
         ++---+-+                             +-+--+-+ Rolling Planks
          +---+                                 +--+Blocks under Planks

                    End View, House moves away or towards viewer

Well, I'm no artist on one of these things yet, but I hope this helps
    somewhat with the concepts.

    
    I was just quoted a price to skim coat my new family room.
    The family room has cathedral ceilings. I am having sand finish
    (random swirl) ceilings and smooth walls. This will match the rest
    of the house. (I got the same guy that did it for the builder 8
    years ago).
    
    Price for 28pcs of 4 by 12 blue board plaster only, as I insalled
    the board, is $1000. I think this is reasonable. What do you think?
    
    			4 x 12 x 28 = 1344
    			1344 x .9 (for waste) = 1209.6 sq ft
    			$1000 / 1209.6 sq ft =  .83 per sq ft
    
    
    

    
    	Back when I was rich I had my kitchen plaster skim coated. 
    The cost for a 14 x 14 room with 8 ft high ceilings was 500 with
    rough ceilings, $550 with smooth.  The work was flawless but I think
    the cost was a bit high.
    
    					=Ralph=

I realize we've digressed from the original note, but that's never stopped us 
before...

$.83 per square foot comes out to something like $25 per 4X8 sheet.  Awhile ago
I had called someone and for some reason a price of $20-$30 per sheet stands 
out.  Furthermore, that price included all materials, AND hanging the rock as
well.  Since blueboard is somewhere in the $6-$8 price range (I think), it
sounded pretty good and I thought at those prices I should have someone hang
it AND do the skim coating as well.

Can anyone offer some price breakdowns of hang it yourself and have someone
else skim it vs have them do the whole thing?  

btw - I noticed that between now and the middle of march Summerville Lumber is
having a sale on 1/2" blueboard for something like $5.59 (give or take a few 
cents) per sheet.  That sounded REAL low to me and I'm trying to figure out if
I should stock up now even though I won't need it until somewhere around May.  I
totally loathe and despise that place, but the price is sure tempting.  Are
there different qualities of blueboard?  If there is, this is probably the
bargain basement brand, but if not, it's a hell of a deal.

-mark

    Re: SommerVille's Sheetrock.
    
    Sommerville sells a brand of sheetrock called "GoldBond". I let you
    infer what you want from that, but it's definately not a well know
    brand like USG. 
    
    I ordered my last batch of sheetrock about a month and a half ago from
    Sommerville thinking "how can they screw up sheetrock?". The stuff
    arrived Saturday morning as scheduled, my hanging crew was already
    working and had just run out of the sheetrock from the previous batch.
    The Sommerville stuff was frozen when it arrived (it was on the truck
    over night in an unheated garage in below zero weather). 

    After it was in the house and started to thaw we found some pieces that
    were damp. Some was so damp and mushy is places , that we put it aside
    rather than use it. I don't know if it was damp because the cold
    sheetrock absorbed the warm moist air in the house or if it was wet
    prior to delivery but I wasn't feeling very good about it as we
    were putting it up.

    Anyway, the stuff has been up for a month and half now and the walls
    and ceiling "appear" to be OK now, but I think I'll buy elsewhere from
    now on. 
    
    Charly 
    

    re: .5
    I think the figure is in the ballpark, considering you've got a
    cathedral ceiling and he'll have to use staging.  $1000 probably
    translates to an estimate of 3 days of work.  It may not take him 
    quite 3 days, but that's probably the number he is using when he 
    gives you the quote so he has a little slack.
    
    Ask him how he got that $1000 number; if he says it's for 1 day
    plus materials and expenses, forget it.  It should be for (roughly) 
    an estimated 3 days plus materials and expenses, I would guess.
    
    Based on my experience getting a cathedral ceiling plastered, 3
    days sounds about right (having never seen the room you're talking
    about, of course....)

    	re .5
    
    Did you by any chance ask what the cost difference would be for
    smooth ceilings? I got a rough estimate from a guy that was visiting
    my neighbor last year to have my 14x12 sun room with sloping cathedral
    done. Including materials to blueboard and skim it was 2K he said
    if I wanted smooth on the ceiling it would be an additional 500-800.
    My neighbor said this guys prices were high but he did good work
    and usualy was available because of the higher prices he charged.
    
    				...Dave
    

Re: .7 
    
    Eastcoast Lumber (Hampstead NH, Ossipee NH, Portland ME) 
    is running a sale on wallboard:
    
    Panel Rey (promax) gypsum wallboard
     	4 x 8 x 1/2 panels 			$3.99 you pick up
     						$4.49 delivered

    Don't know much about the brand name but the price looks 
    better than Sumerville.  Anyone care to comment, I was thinking
    of stocking up too.  Sale ends 29Feb88.      

    I also saw the sale ad for East coast lumber, and the part that
    struck me about this brand of wallboard is that the edges are beveled
    (I think that's the word they used) for easier mudding.  Is this
    good, or just a gimick?
    
    John

    RE: .11
    
    I've never seen sheetrock that low ($3.99).  And no tax to boot!
    Wish they had an outlet near me.
    
    RE: .12
    
    I think all sheetrock is beveled on the long edge.

    Re:.0
    
    I think that the quotes you got are high. It seems to me that
    contractors "size you up" and give you an estimate that they feel
    you can handle. I got a quote for a 20 by 24 garage foundation at
    $7500! This guy must have mistaken me for someone with money! Got
    the job done for $1500.
    
    Mark Higgins
    

I am in the process of planning out a garage to build this spring.  What I have
in mind is a 26' wide by 32' deep garage with a 12'X 16' insulated workshop
in the rear corner.  I plan on using the upstairs foir a lot of storage
including lumber, therefor I think I was thinking of using 2X8 joists.  I 
would like to use a steel beam down the center to support joists thereby 
eliminating any support posts in the middle of the garage.  I whould like
to use rough cut hemlock for the framing luber to get a little more strength 
at a little lower price.  If I offset the steel beam 1 foot I will get a 12'
span and a 14' span above.  Will 2X8's be ok for that span with a fair amount
of weight on it?  (oh 16" ctrs on everything).  2X6's for rafters and 
probably 2X6s for studs.  After checking around, most lumberyards sell their
hemlock green beacause it is easier to nail and wont split.  Has anyone tried
this?  1/2 CDX ply for roof, 5/8 ply for attic floor.  Probably shiplap outside
over the studs. I need to run alot of electricity out there for workshop.
should I bury PVC with a 220V ??guage cable?  how deep should the pipe be?
Does anyone have any suggestions to add? 

One other problem is my wife wants arched garage doors.  It seems like this is
best done last but how does one get a good arched shape?? freehand sounds
risky??

thanx

    If I remember my joist tables correctly, 2x8's should only span
    10 or 12 feet max, so you would need at least 2x10 for 14'. If you
    plan to have a lot of weight upstairs, design your floor correctly
    or you'll have problems galore. As far as power goes, you'll probably
    need a sub panel for the garage. The size of the panel (plus factors
    for loss in the run length from the main panel) will govern cable
    size, but plan on a heavy feed for a shop.
    
    Eric
    

    Where are you that lumberyards sell hemlock?  I tried to get some
    for my porch floor a couple of years ago and it was nowhere to be
    found.
    
    Anyway...I'd agree that 2x8 is probably a little small for joists
    with that kind of span.  And make sure you're not overspanning on
    your steel beam, too.  Use of steel doesn't automatically guarantee
    that anything you do is okay.
    
    There's a good book, "Simplified Design of Structural Timber", that
    tells all you'd ever want to know about joist and rafter and beam
    loadings.  I think it's published by Addison-Wesley, but I could
    be wrong on that.  You might be able to find it at a library.  Other
    books have load tables for joists that don't go into quite so much
    detail.  Floors for dwellings are typically designed for a load
    of 40 pounds/square foot.  For what you'd doing, I'd design for

    re:.0
    
    	I built a 22x26 garage with a loft area.  Used floor trusses
    and I had the designer figure out the load capacity.  Since my 
    garage is a gambrel stile the second floor walls were 4 feet in
    from the outside first floor walls. This caused a loading problem
    for the floor.  I went with 2ft deep trusses spaced a 2ft center.
    I store quite a bit a lumber and plywood on the second floor now
    and it's plenty solid.  
    	With the help of 5 people I was able to install 14 floor trusses
    in less than an hour.  Total cost for the trusses was $770.  I think
    this is a good alternative for eliminating support beams and posts.
    
    guido

    Has anyone heard of a company called Shelter-Kits Inc.? They
    are located in Tilton, H.H. and sell garage kits. I am in the market
    for a garage and thinking of going the kit route. Any other
    suggestions on kit garages would be appreciated.
    
    -Dick
    

    I agree with -.1.  Use what my builder called "engineered truss".
    I had a 24X30 garage built (single story) and the truss ran 24 foot
    direction, every 2 feet.  They build them to order for different
    roof angles and are strong and save a lot of cost in labor.  Two
    people put up the truss with the walls held upright with some 2X6s.
    Of course he had a backhoe to lift the truss.  I think they had
    all the truss in place in 4 or 5 hours.  Compare that with stick
    type construction time.
    
    Peter

    Okay gang I'm in the process of designing an addition...two-car
    garage under a family room and breezeway. Here's my question. What
    is a good size for the garage? Right now I'm looking at a 24 wide
    by 20 (feet that is) deep garage. Is that the standard these days?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mike

    I have a 24x30 and consider it the smallest size I could be happy
    with however 24x24 is a good size with a fair amount of elbow room
    with 2 cars parked inside. They seem to shrink once they are built
    and you start adding bicycles,lawnmowers and other assorted stuff
    the wife dosent want in the house.
    my $0.02..
    
    -j
    

    RE .18
    
    Do you plan on having a workshop in the garage?  If so you may 
    want larger.  Our garage is 26x24 and is also used as a workshop,
    add 2 vehicles (both small) and all the other stuff .19 mentioned
    (even though we have a large shed things tend to end up in the
    garage) and I often wish it was larger.
    
    ep

    I agree that a 24x24 is considered "standard" these days.  We built
    a 22x24 3 years ago because I didn't have the space to go a full
    24 wide (septic and lot line considerations).  My neighbor built
    a 24x30 and has plenty of space.  (Not that it won't fill up fairly
    quickly, as someone mentioned.)
    
    Remember if your going to have livable space above, that you gain
    some extra space there if you went 24x24.
    
    	Ted

I am in the process of having a 2 car garage built for my cape.  The garage is 
to be 24Wx32D.  We wanted the garage to be 18' to the side of the house with
eventually a room connecting the 2 together.  Thats what we wanted now here are
the problems weve encountered:
After we started the ground work we immediately hit a LARGE rock about 15 ft
by 12 ft and starting at the surface going down at least 4 ft.  It may be ledge
but its shaped like a mushroom and the sides are dropping off sharply.  Of 
course the rock was centered right where the wall (nearest the house) was
supposed to go.  I felt it was too big and too close to the house to have it 
blasted so we decided to try digging around it.  what we are thinking of doing
is moving the garage closer to the house (10-12 ft) and building the frost walls
around the rock and pouring the floor over the rock. that was plan 2!  As we
dug the wall nearest the house we found a small section of the big rock jutting
out towards the house and another big rock next to it.  There is only about
a foot between the 2 rocks where I want the wall to go so not enough room to
work.  Now It looks like we will have to do some blasting to remove a couple
feet of the big rock if we want to continue.  we still have not dug the other
3 sides but we think they'll go ok.  

My question:
- does anyone see anything wrong with putting the garage/floor around/on top of
this rock?
- Can I get some of the rock blasted or drilled off safely where its only 12-15
  ft from the house?
- Can anyone recommend a GOOd & SAFE blaster in teh Manchester NH area who could
  do this for me??
- Any idea how much $$ we are talking ???
- Or could we build walls right on top of the rock?? Remember the top of
   rock is fairly flat and at ground level, about 1 foot below floor level
  of the house so I could put a 1 foot wall on top of the rock .
- Any other ideas or concerns?

thanx
gary - Oh I love this GRANITE state!

OH I forgot to mention, If I go with this plan I will attach the garage to the
house now with a 10x10 or 11x11 breezeway/mudroom.  rumor has it that there was
another large rock (encountered when the house was built) right about where the
breezeway will go.  so its possible we will run into it when we dig the 
breezeway.  if its in the way we are hoping we can either use sonna tubes or
maybe just place floor beams from garage foundation to the house.  Is that
allowed?  nothing is easy!

    
    	You may not have to blast.  You only need to get the footings
    below the frost line, so I see you as having two options.  One
    is to call a blasting company and they will probably recommend
    jack hammering the rock just where you need the footings to go
    as opposed to blasting.  I'd say a ballpark figure of $500 to
    $1000.
    	The other option that MIGHT be a consideration is pouring the
    footing over the rock.  If the rock is as big and as deep as you
    suggest, then the rock will not be moving anywhere soon as long
    as the base of the rock is below the frost line.
    
    	Derry Paving Co. did my blasting for me and I was satisfied
    with their work.  Talk to Pierre or Mike Levesque.  There is also
    a Blasting Recommendation note somewhere in the 2000 series notes.
    Also, decide who you want to do the foundation and concrete work
    and use their suggestions.

    I, too, wonder why you can't just build on top of the rock? I have
    seen several houses which have ledge or huge boulders as part of
    the foundation. After all, what's a fieldstone foundation??
    
    Alan

    Your building inspector will need to have the final say on this,
    but I would think that if the rock is as big and goes as deep as
    you're saying (i.e. it goes well below the frost line on all sides),
    you can just pour the walls on top of the rock.  You'll probably
    have to drill a series of holes that you can drop some sections
    of rebar into so the wall won't slide off the rock, but I can't
    see any problem with the basic concept.  But see what the building
    inspector has to say.
    If you blast...I predic$$$ beyond belief.  After all, how much
    would *you* charge to set off dynamite 15' from a house???

Hey!  I'm gonna' actually write a note and ask for advice!

I'm building a garage this summer, and for various reasons I'm building it as 
two spans of 2x10s, with a steel beam supporting the middle.  My question is 
this:  I need a nailing surface on the top of the beam.  The easiest way would 
seem to be to attach a 2x6 to the top.  How do I attach it?  Do I rent a 
power-nailer and shoot nails through the 2x6 into the beam?  Do I drill holes
and bolt it down?  Has anybody done this?

Paul

I sort of did it...

I put in a steel beam and needed a nailer on the side.  When I order the beam
I simmply had the shop bore in some holes.  I'm sure I could have done it myself
but the thought of drilling through 1/2" steel didn't sound too exciting.

I would think if you had holes drilled on the top you could literally bolt a 
nailer to it.

-mark

    When I built my barn I used 6"x6" H beam steel as the frame. I didn't want
    to drill all those holes to make nailers, so I flame cut the holes.
    Sure beats drilling, since I needed about a hundred holes.
    
    why do you think they call me:
                                    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    One of my neighbors is presently buildig a garage using a steel
    I beam and he also drilled holes an bolted a nailer to it. It worked
    out very nicely....
    
    Bob
    
    

    I drilled mine last year and its not as bad as you think. You only need
    a hole every three or four feet and you alternate sides as well. You
    only need to keep the 2X from shifting around, gravity and the weigth
    of the joists does the rest. I drilled either 5/16 or 3/8 holes with a
    heavy duty drill and cutting oil and it only took a couple of minutes
    per hole. Buy a GOOD metal cutting drill bit for this job though. I
    then used carrage bolts to fasten the 2X down. 
    
    Charly

    
    	The power nailer/stud gun idea sounds extremly dangerous and
    and unworkable on a steel beam.
    

    Ever heard of a yard "growing rocks"?  After a few years rocks seem
    to appear out of nowhere in your lawn, yard, whatever.  The reason
    for this is the freezing/thawing action of the ground.  Some rocks
    move about 1" per year, gradually working their way to the surface.
    
    I hope your big rock doesn't decide to inch it way up through your
    garage floor.  
    
    I recently noticed a house which had an addition attached which
    required some blasting.  I don't know how big a problem they had
    to deal with.  
    
    My inclination would be to do all the digging that you can, identify
    all the rocks/ledge, and then see if they couldn't be blasted and
    removed.
    
    But, I have no idea how much money that would cost.
    
    	Ted

    If you have the right power nailer you can easily shoot the correct
    type of fasteners into the beam. The type that I have seen (and
    actually tried because I didn't believe it would work) look like
    a fluted nail on one end and a threaded stud on the other.
    
    These fasteners where only about a 1/4" or 5/16" in diameter. I
    would opt for burning the holes in the beam and using lag bolts.
    
    Nick

>    The reason
>    for this is the freezing/thawing action of the ground.  Some rocks
>    move about 1" per year, gradually working their way to the surface.
>    
>    I hope your big rock doesn't decide to inch it way up through your
>    garage floor.  

The point made by previous replies is that if the base of the rock is below the 
frost line, this can't happen.  The freezing/thawing action of the ground can 
only move the rock if it can get underneath it.

Paul

That I can have the holes I want drilled in the beam by the steel fabricators 
before delivery for about $15.  Seems like a cheap way out of several hours 
spent burning out my drill.

Thanks for all the responses, and thanks to Paul Bezeredi who stopped by my 
office after reading the note to suggest that I ask the steel people to do it.

Paul

    
    
    
    
      Jeez and I thought the Old man in the mountain was getting taller;-)

I have a related question:

I too am planning my garage addition, and will be using an I-beam to span
the width of the garage.  My question concerns how to size the I-beam.

I just talked to our building inspector today, and after stating that
he "hasn't sized steel in a while", calculated that I would need a
12/14L(?) I-beam.  Anyway, the physical dimensions would be 4" wide by 11 7/8"
deep.  This seemed awfully big to me.  I would swear the one in my parents'
garage is only 4x6.  I'm going to ask him about it again.

Since the replies to this note suggest there's some experience here, I was
wondering if you could tell me if he's in the right ball park.  I assume I
also could go with a 6" wide beam of comparable strength and require less depth.

Above the garage is storage.  Here's the dimensions:

        22'
+------------------+
|                  |
|                  |13'
|                  |
+==================+ I-beam
|                  |
|                  |13'
|                  |
+------------------+

/dave mayo

ps. He also suggested shooting the nailer into the beam, but I'm going the
    bolt route.

    My uncle attached a nailer to the top of an I-beam by using a board
    that overlapped the top of the beam on both sides and then putting
    bolts with large washers through the board just outside the edges
    of the beam, so the washers grabbed the edges of the top flange
    of the beam.  Sort of like this:
    
    	__=::=__________________
    	|  ::			|
    	|__::___________________|
    	   ||================ <------------same thing on this side
    	 --||--	   ||
    		   ||
    		   ||

<12/14L(?) I-beam.  Anyway, the physical dimensions would be 4" wide by 11 7/8"
<deep.  This seemed awfully big to me.  I would swear the one in my parents'
<garage is only 4x6.  I'm going to ask him about it again.

The problem with steel is that there are more variables then with wood, and 
the tables are a lot more complicated to deal with.  Unlike, wood beam tables 
that give that yield results by simple inspection, steel beam tables require
calculations to use.  You may be able to get better information from a local 
manufacturer, if your building inspector is unfamiliar with steel.  

The guide that I use(AIA Graphics Standards, J.S. Wiley) only lists steel 
beams that span 22' in 12 inch depths.  This does not mean you can not get them 
smaller.  This book is used by many architects, engineers and building 
inspectors because it contains basic information about many areas.  If you need 
more specific info on steel beams try the AISC(American Institute of Steel 
Construction) Manual for Steel Construction(expensive).

<Since the replies to this note suggest there's some experience here, I was
<wondering if you could tell me if he's in the right ball park.  I assume I
<also could go with a 6" wide beam of comparable strength and require less depth.

Sort of correct.  Steel beams are specified by depth and weight per foot.  
Weight can be increased by increasing the width or thickness.  There are "Wide
Flanged Beams" which are designed to fit a 2x4 nailer on each side.  You now
have exhausted most of my knowledge about steel beams.  I guess you could say,
"I know enogh to be dangerous, but not enough to be helpful."

Brian

    Good luck, Paul!!!  

If you ever try to lift such a beam, make sure you have it braced against 
twisting.  The way I was lifting it was I bolted it to the two posts, braced 
the two posts against racking (I'm not all THAT stupid), and then worked with a 
come-along attached to the house.  With the bases of the posts in place (and 
pushing against the in-place walls), I lifted it up like a lever.  At the 
beginning, the come-along could not quite lift it, but did manage to take 
enough weight off of it so that it could be lifted by hand, and braces put 
underneath.  The come-along only has a 6' draw, so I had to do in in three 
stages - bracing it on posts and re-adjusting the ropes and come-along at 4'
and at 8'.  I was pulling it up the last pull, from 8' to vertical, and as I
lifted it the brace fell out from underneath.  One end went up, the other down,
and the whole thing came crashing down.  Fortune smiled, though.  No one was
near it's path (I made very sure of that), and the only casualty was one of the
lag bolts, and the two sawhorses it fell on.  I'm glad it hit the sawhorses,
breaking its fall, because otherwise it could have easily cracked the slab. 

It should take me just about an evening getting the beam back in position to 
try again.  I can re-use the posts, I just have to turn them upside-down
because the current bolt holes were stripped clean.  Probably Thursday I'll try
lifting it again. But this time I'll have a person stationed at each side with
braces keeping the thing from twisting. 

Oh, and one last thing - the stupidity of even allowing it to twist like that
was due to completion complex - it was about 8:45, getting dark, and "just one 
more little bit and it will be done."  As if I haven't been done in by my 
completion complex often enough already.

Paul

The beam went up without a hitch on Friday night.  Nothing different from the 
first time, except someone was standing right at the side with a brace nailed 
to the post making sure it didn't twist.  What with having had a dry run, we 
knew exactly what we were doing, and it went very quickly.

Paul

    I am considering putting a two car garage in the cellar of the new
    house I am building. 
    The house is 24 x 36 and I plan on using half of the cellar space
    which is about 36 wide and 17 deep. The terrain is suitable for doing
    this.
    A friend of mine told me that having a garage in the cellar literally
    stinks due to exhaust and oil and is *not* a good idea.
    Any opinions? Are there any building codes I should be aware of?
    The house will be built in Leominster MA.
    
    Domenic

    Our house is 26 x 34. We have an attached garage. As it is we have a
    GOOD sized cellar. But i sure would not want not want to sacrifice
    almost half of that for a garage.
    
    
    				herb
    
    

    There's nothing wrong with a garage in the basement.  (It can't
    be a pure basement because obviously the cars have to drive in.
    
    Walls and ceiling have to be finished firecode sheetrock.
    Door into the house must have a minimum fire rating of 2 hrs (I
    think - better check Mass bldg code section 21).

    Need a drain in the floor/or floor must slope slightly so that any
    spilled gas outside.
    
    That's about it.   Yeah if you drive a shitbox with an oil leak
    and worn rings, it'll smell, but that has nothing to do with the
    basement.  Cars in good
     condition don't smell much.

    
       Make sure it is adequately ventilated in the event that
    (god forbid) you leave the car running with the door shut.
    
       Too many families have perished from carbon monoxide
    due to attached garages.
    
                                 Mark
    

    My folks had a split with garage under, as do many folks with splits.
    They never had a problem with fumes. 'course they didn't run the
    car with the door closed, but I don't think anybody is that dumb,
    are they ?  

re: back a few:
	A drain, to me, would not be safe for the reason mentioned.  If you do
	leak gas, I know Quincy would not like it entering the town drains
	(even if it would be better than the water in Quincy Bay!).  Same holds
	true for oil.  Drainning it to the "outside" is not too safe either.

	Is there a code ruling on this ?????

bjm

RE .22

	I have a split with the traditional garage in the basement.
Personally I would never do it again.  Sure, having the car in the base-
ment is convenient, but it does not outway the other conveniences of a
full basement and a (2 car) garage.  

	The garage can be expanded if need be in the future - the basement
can't.

	The basement space can be used as a workshop AND a family room - 
can't do that with two cars in there.  Oh, and if your thinking of having
the workshop in the back of the 'garage' in the basement?  It doesn't work
that well.  Too cold in the winter amongst other things.

	The garage can hold much more storage if it is a separate 
structure than if it were in the basement.

	I know some folks that are taking their garage out of the base-
ment and building a real garage; they needed the space.

						.dave.

    re. .22
    
    	Domenic,
    
    	36' wide x 17' deep sounds a bit short for a garage.  My husband
    and I had a 20' wide x 24' deep garage added on to our home last
    summer.  20' wide is a snug fit (2 celebrities) and 24' deep leaves
    just about enough room for a small worktable and walking room. 
    Measure the length of the longest car you plan to park there, and
    then add about 4' for clearance and walking.
    
    	I wouldn't worry about cars smelling up the basement.  Lots
    of homes have basement garages.  Just be sure to have the garage
    door open whenever your car is running for ventilation.
    
    	Good luck,
    	Robin

Re.22

I still plan on putting two garages in the cellar. The house I plan on
building will have an unfinished 2nd floor, so there will be lots of
extra space.
I felt that a 17' deep garage should be enough since we only buy small cars.
But since 17' is not very much, I was thinking of extending the garage by
putting a deck on that side of the house, and having part of the garage under
the deck. Adding 4 to 6 feet should make a big difference.
 
  Thanks for the reply's
 
  Domenic

    I think that having part of the garage under a deck will be VERY tacky
    and contribute against resale.

    You may only be small cars but the people you try to sell the house
    to in the future may only buy large cars and see that as a minus.
    A house should be built for the future as well as the present needs
    because houses are usually passed on to new owners many times over.
        

    I think you should build a normal-length garage (20 feet or more, 24
    feet even better), both for the resale question later, and because you
    probably have other things that you will want to store in it besides
    cars (bicycles, lawnmower, fertlizer spreader, garden tools,
    wheelbarrow, scrap lumber, a ladder, etc.) that won't fit in there if
    there is only just barely room for the cars.
    
    /Charlotte (whose garage hasn't got room for her car anymore!)

    RE .22 If you haven't decided on whether you'll have the garage in the
    basement of your new house, you can't have poured the foundation yet,
    right? Is there time to either enlarge the house foundation to
    accomodate a decent size garage under, or plan now to build a separate
    or attached garage? 
    

    I am planning on buying a 24x36 modular home with an unfinished second
    floor. A 26x36 costs $4000 more. Add $2000 to every 2 feet I add
    to the length. So it all comes down to money. Everything is in the
    planning stages right now to start contruction in the fall.
    
    I'm leaning towards the idea of building the house without a garage,
    get the house built, and "someday" add on a garage. I am planning
    on a future addition by positioning 2nd floor windows where they
    will not interfere with possible roof lines. 
    
    
    Domenic
     

    When I bought my house in Atlanta, it had a garage under.  The builder
    (it was a spec house) was talked into taking out the wall at the
    back of the garage so I could hold my 'driving' cars and my 'under
    restoration collection' cars.  Worked like - pull into garage, keep
    going and turn left.  (in reality push not drive).  It was really
    handy.
    
    Here in Joisey, I got a two car, tandem garage - 12 feet wide and
    about 40 feet long! with a single door.  One project fit in the
    enclosed area under the back porch.  Will be building a deck this
    year and it will be high enough for a 2 car carport underneath.
    
    Why is a deck with carport under 'tacky'?
    
    	-Barry-
   

    >why is a deck with carport under 'tacky'
    
    As i read the note containing this, my visual impression was that the
    car(s) would be partially in a "garage" and partially under a carport. That
    seems tacky. In particular, the "garage" would no longer be a garage in
    at least the sense that it would not be enclosed. If my visual
    impression is incorrect then so is my conclusion.
    
    			herb

    I have a garage question of a different sort. My house sits on concrete
    piers, meaning only a small cellar/utility room. I plan on adding
    a garage, either this summer or next. I would like to add a cellar
    to the house and add the garage, but I can't afford both. I figure
    it would cost me roughly the same to do either project myself. Since
    I do a lot of woodworking and car repair, I am leaning toward the
    garage.
    	I began thinking about combining the two projects, build a garage
    with a cellar in it. While this is non-standard residential
    construction, I think it could be done. I could use either pre-stressed
    concrete panels for the floor, or key the foundation and use a steel
    truss floor and pour on top of it to provide the garage floor.
    	Has anyone ever heard of this? I am still in the thinking stage,
    and would appreciate any input. I have no idea of the cost of the
    pre-stressed concrete panels. I wonder if the cost of having them
    unloaded and put in place by crane, would be more than the cost
    of a steel floor to pour over?
    	I would also be interested if I could get away with a plywood
    floor and bridging to support the floor while it is setting. This
    would work out the best, since I assume it could be removed and
    used elsewhere in the garage. If the foundation were poured with
    keys, that resemble a ledger board around its perimeter, and the
    rebar is attatched to the foundation, I see no reason why the 
    temporary floor joist forms  and plywood could not be reused.
    	I will end up talking to the building inspector after a little
    research, I figured I would bounce a few ideas off this crowd first.
    
    							Chris
                                                             

>    	I began thinking about combining the two projects, build a garage
>    with a cellar in it. While this is non-standard residential
>    construction, I think it could be done. I could use either pre-stressed

You don't see alot of them but it is done occasionally in residential
applications. There is a house up the road from my house with a
detached 4 car garage, that's 2 up and 2 down. I don't know what the
construction details are though. 

Have you consider a barn like structure? A two car garage at ground
level with a gambrel roof line that allows space for a workshop above.
Much cheaper (I would guess), easier and more conventional to build. I
have a garage like this, it's 24 feet wide by 25 feet deep with a 20 X
25 foot utility space above minus the 3 X 10 stair case.

Charly

    Just got back from a few days off and had to put my $.80 worth in.
    A garage is another one of those projects that you should over-plan
    and over build. 
    We did most of ours ourselves and built a 26' by 36' that has
    everything except a flush (yes we do have a kitchen sink in it).
    The size will hold cars, lawn mowers can be divided into a workshop
    if needed, etc. This has certainly added to our resale (of course
    now he doesn't want to move!) and is a maximum size that we will
    never have to remodel or enlarge. The philosophy of build it the
    first time is more expensive at first but better in the long run.
    And even if you don't have the land , a second story fits the bill
    for workshop and storage. We were in the house five years without
    a garage but it was well worth the wait.
    
    Lynn
    

Here's the garage project that I'm planning -- any comments or advice?

My house is on top of a small hill, about 20 or 25 feet above the road,
with a gently sloping back yard.  I can't put a garage in back without
eliminating most of my yard and all of my view, so I'm working on 
putting it in front, off to one side of my house and set into the
hillside.  Simplifying the actual situation a little bit, the
garage would be two stories tall in front and only one story tall
in back, with the second story intended for storage and a workshop.
The size would be 28x22, minus about 4' of width for the stairs.  

At 22 feet deep on the outside of the foundation, the interior
dimension will be not much more than 20 feet (the back wall is a
high retaining wall, so I'm assuming that it'll have to be thick).
Given that I shouldn't need to store anything downstairs, I'm
assuming that that will be a convenient depth for even large cars.

What with the hillside and all, the second story of the garage is
another full story lower than the ground floor of my house!  So
after parking my car, I'll have to walk up a flight of stairs, exit
the workroom level and go up some more stairs onto my front porch.
This is definately not an arrangement for people who hate to climb 
stairs.  I'm wondering how happy I'll really be with this arrangement
...not that I have much choice unless I buy land from a neighbor.

I had a long range plan of eventually putting a family room onto the
side of my house next to the garage and connecting them with a mudroom 
in between -- that's in between both horizontally and vertically.
However, I just found out from my building inspector that that isn't
possible.  In my part of Boylston, the limit is 35' of height from the 
lowest ground level on the foundation to the highest point of the roof.
A 2 story house with with garage under gets measured from the garage floor
to the roof peak, and only barely makes it with ordinary ceiling heights.
Measured like that, my 1.5 story house would be over 40 feet high!

I'm also wondering how the whole arrangement would look to a buyer.
Not that I plan to sell for 20 years, but just in case...

	Enjoy,
	Larry

.41>  In my part of Boylston, the limit is 35' of height from the 
.41>  lowest ground level on the foundation to the highest point of the roof.
    
    Such zoning regulations can be waived for good reason, but the building
    inspector can't waive them.  You need to have a hearing with your
    town's Zoning Board of Appeals.  It's a straightforward process, but
    time-consuming because of scheduling delays and the required public
    notice.
    
    It seems to me that you'd have a pretty good case:  although your
    proposed  structure would be very tall if measured in the way the law
    mandates, at no point is it more than 20' from ground to top.  And your
    proposed projects don't raise the top of the house at all - they just
    lower the bottom - so you're not increasing the house's interference
    with anyone's view, airspace, sunshine, etc.  And your hilly lot
    doesn't leave you with much choice.
    
    I've been through the ZBA process in Maynard, and I'd be happy to give
    you more details of my experience if you contact me offline.

    
    i'm having a house built in vermont... 
    
    my questions is with how my builder is planning to build the 
    garage. He is planing on using partical board, (or whatever it's
    called) for sheathing, and then put vinyl siding right over that.
    
    is that pretty standard for an unheated garage.... 
    the house is going to have plywood sheathing with tyvek, under 
    the vinyl siding..
    
    
    thanks

re: << Note 275.43 by HPSCAD::DANCONA >>>
    
>   ...my builder is planning to build the garage... using partical board, 
>   (or whatever it's called) for sheathing, and then put vinyl siding 
>   right over that.
    
      If  its  realy  "partical  board"  get  another  builder.   If its
      "oriented strand board" (OSB) then it  is  standard  practice  for
      both heated and unheated residential buildings.
      
      Is  it  possible  that  you  might  someday  insulate and heat the
      garrage?  If so the extra cost of putting Tyvek (or some other air
      infiltration  barrier)  between  the  OSB and siding is probably a
      good investment.

    If the inspector's doing his job, he won't allow either option.  Attic
    ventilation is just as much part of the code as firerock between the
    garage and living quarters.  (You do know that you can't use ordinary
    sheetrock, don't you?  You have to use 5/8 inch firerock.)
    
    If air can get through, then fire can get through.  Your best bet is to
    forego the gable vent, and install roof vents, or better yet, a ridge
    vent on the existing house.  Of the three choices, gable vents are
    considered the worst, anyway, so you'll be improving your attic
    ventilation that way.
    
    Both ridge and roof vents are reasonably priced, and considered a DIY
    task, though I've never done it myself.
    
       Gary

    You should probably ask the inspector's opinion before you commit
    to anything; fireproofing is (rightfully!) a hot-button with
    inspectors..
    ...tom

    You might check out the keyword listing 1111.86, Saftey.  It lists
    several notes about fire code and sheetrock.  Specifically 1570
    discusess Firerock for a Garage.

    A friend just built a house in Leominster, and had a problem with
    his inspector the day before the closing, therefore he refused to
    issue his occupancy permit at 4:30 in the afternoon.
    
    He has a garage under his livingroom, so he needed 1 hour of burn
    time, his fireproof sheetrock only allowed 45 minutes, so he was
    told to either add another 1/2" of sheetrock or plaster the ceiling.
    (he has a 26x24 garage)
    
    He called me and said "can we plaster?"  I said "do you care how it
    looks?" he said "no!" I said "lets give it a shot!"
    we rushed down to Moores to pick up plaster/trowels/hods etc...
    and some mixing buckets....  they closed at 8:00 we got there at
    7:45....   started at 8:30pm finished at 1:30am, came out pretty
    good.  His secretary called the inspector the next morning and asked
    to inspect the house, he said he already had and was waiting on
    the garage fix, he almost sh*t when he found out it was already
    finished.                                          
    
    Fra

    My house has an existing attached garage.  The house and garage are
    brick construction.  In fact, the livingroom fireplace is within the
    wall that separates the garage from the living space.  There is a flat
    tar roof on the garage.
    
    My question is:
    Is the brick wall between the garage and the living space a sufficient 
    fire barrier?  The house, by the way, was constructed this way in the 
    early 1950s.
    
    Marshall

    The question is does brick burn?  Not generally.  Is the door between
    the garage and the house a rated fire door?  You would to answer
    that one.  Doors are rated as to how long they will last before
    a fire will burn thru them.  Metal doors have higher ratings than
    wood doors.  What I have heard is 1 1/2 hours for a door to count.
    
    I would think that the brick wall would be a valid fire stop.

    It depends...
    A load bearing 4" brick wall unplastered has a 1hr fire rating
    plastered it has a 1.5hr rating provided it dosent have any combustible
    members framed into it. A true fire partition wall is free standing and
    extends thru and above all non fire resistant construction.
    
    An 8" brick wall w/o combustible frameing members is 5 hrs 7hrs if
    plastered on both sides. An 8" wall with combustible frameing members
    is 2hrs 2.5 if plastered both sides.
    
    A 4" brick wall with combustible frameing members has no rating for
    fire resistance at all.
    
    I have a copy of the NFPA data sheet with figures for other
    configurations if desired send mail..
    
    -j

    Thanks for the quick answers.
    
    Marshall

    
    I've been thinking about .9 .  How do I effectively determine the
    thickness of the brick wall?  Are the words "plaster" and "combustible 
    framing members" referring to materials on the "house side" of the
    wall between the attached garage and the house? (There's just bare
    brick on the garage side of the wall.)   If the fire rating
    seems to be inadequate, are there some "simple" modifications I can
    make to increase the protection?
    
    Marshall
    

    An addition to .11
    
    I checked the outside wall thickness of the garage.  It's 8 inches, so
    I "assume" that the thickness between the garage and the house is at
    least that much.
    
    The interior ceiling is apparently some form of plaster (for the most
    part).  There is a corner section of the ceiling which was patched by a
    previous owner with sheetrock.  An exposed section of the sheetrock
    says "meets ASTM desig. C-36".  The outer garage roof is flat and covered
    with tar.  There are house windows right above the garage roofline.
    Also, there is NO doorway between the house and the garage.
    
    I assume that a fire would not be able to rapidly go through the roof
    of the garage and use the 2nd floor windows as an entry path.
    
    	          |--------------------|
    	          |   house            |
    	          -                    |
    	           <---house windows   |
    	  roof    -                    |
    	|---------|
    	| garage  |
    	|         |
    	|         |
    
    The garage currently does not have any air vents.  I'm thinking about
    adding at least one vent high on one of the walls to release any build 
    up of gasoline vapors.  Only one car is kept in the garage.  No other
    gasoline nor gasoline-driven machinery are kept in there.
    
    Any further thoughts on fire-safety based on this information?
    
    Marshall

    The roof construction tar over ????, framed over,ect will play an
    important part in containing the fire to the garage.
    One thought on the window is the glass would break within a short time
    and instantly if hit by water from the firehose after being heated by
    the fire. To make the window fire resistant it would need to be wired
    glass. FWIW-The wired glass also offers some break-in protection but is
    costly enough to leave you feeling robbed anyway.
    The vent is a good idea but consider placeing one at floor level as
    many vapors are heavier than air and collect at that level. The floor
    vent ideally should be located at the lowest point possible.
    
    Combustible frameing members would be any combustible object(wood,ect)
    that extend thru or make up a part of the wall.
    
    Example: [][][][][]##[][][][]  (as seen from top)
         []=bricks  ##=wooden post,stud,ect
    
                        or
    
          [][][]##[][][]##[][][]##[]    (seen from front)
          ][][][][][][][][][][]][][]
    []=brick  ##=wood rafter supported by being "laid" into the brick.
    
    Plastering in this case would be the equivilent of a stucco like finish
    where a layer of concrete,plaster,ect is spread over the brick face.
    
    Hope this makes sense. 
    
    I have sent some reading material that will explain this far better
    than I could ever condense for you. 
    
    -j

    Thanks again.
    
    Marshall
    

    In the interest of NOT starting a new note, I'm placing my question
    as a reply to this note.  I have a problem related to water in a
    garage.  There are some occasional puddles from rain/snow dripping off
    the car, but I have a "general" dampness condition that is a bigger 
    problem for me.
    
    The garage is an attached brick garage with no windows (nor any
    access to the house).  There have been days when it's dry outside,
    but damp (at least on the floor) within the garage.  Yesterday, it
    was so humid in the garage that the outside of the car windows were
    covered with "dew".  All the tools on the walls had a film of moisture
    on them.  Even the car's brakes felt "grabby" for about a block because 
    they must have been covered with a similar layer of moisture.  I'm
    concerned that things (including the car) are going to start getting
    rusty!
    
    What can be done about this?  I've thought about providing some form of
    ventilation but I'm not sure how I would approach doing that.  As
    described in notes 1570.7 through 1570.14, this garage has a flat, tar
    roof.  I had mentioned in that note that I was interested in venting
    gasoline fumes for safety reasons, but I'd like to get rid of most of
    the moisture also.
    
    Would a simple non-powered vent near ground level be sufficient?  It was
    suggested in 1570 that at that height, it would help to vent heavier 
    gasoline vapors.  Do I need a powered exhaust vent?  Do people ever use 
    de-humidifiers in garages (I'd rather not)?  If I placed a vent through 
    the brick wall, would this be a difficult job with just hand tools?  I'm 
    not sure how feasible it would be to try to go through the roof and I 
    don't want to create a leaking roof.
    
    Thanks for any suggestions.
    
    Marshall

RE: .10

	I would cut the hole through the wall. I would cut two; one low and
one high. If it is regular cement bricks (8" X 8" x 16") it wouldn't be
too hard to do. Locate one vent in one corner and tghe other in a different
corner. By a bag of cement (either sand or moter mix; the kind you just add
water too) and break out the blocks with a hammer. Cement the vent pipe into
the hole you made. I would also use at least 6" pipe. I don't think you
will need a fan for it either. With two hole natural air movement will occur.


				Bill

    Don't forget to put some sort of screening in the vents to prevent
    unwanted vistors in the garage.
    
    Dave

    
    
    Please post the results of whatever you do. I'm interested,
    because I have the same problem. My garage is under the house.
    
    
    Steve

    I use my garage as a workshop and every spring both the garage and
    basement go through periods where the cold floors are tools start to
    serve as condensation media.  The problem is that the warmer and more
    humid air reaches dew point on these cold surfaces.  
    
    The solution is heat.  In the garage I either open the doors and try
    to get the surfaces warmed up so that the condensation no longer forms.
    In the basement I have an old wood stove and as I write this that stove
    is going strong.  I also heat the garage when I need to.  Another
    option is dehumidify the air, but at this time of the year most units
    will freeze up.  
    
    Tools need to be protected by liberal use of wax protection.  Some
    rust does occur, but it has never really caused a major problem and
    tends to wear off as the tools get used.
                   

    In reference to .13, it may take me quite a while before I start
    putting any holes into the garage walls.  There are, unfortunately,
    many other "projects" that have higher priorities.  Reply .14 does
    make a lot of sense.  The temperature in the garage feels significantly
    cooler than the outside temperature when the moisture is on the floor
    of the garage.  Setting up a heater in there would not be practical,
    if for no other reason than there's no space to put it (it's a one car
    garage in the true sense of "one").
    
    One temporary idea I had was to open the overhead door slightly during
    those times when the floor is damp.  As .14 stated, there appears to
    be a need to bring in the warmer outside air.  Also, this would
    probably increase the air flow would increase evaporation.  The door is 
    attached to a Sears opener which should prevent it from being opened 
    any further by "unauthorized persons".  I would probably only do that 
    while I was at home.
    
    Thanks for all the suggestions.
    
    Marshall
    

re:.15

>    One temporary idea I had was to open the overhead door slightly during
>    those times when the floor is damp.  As .14 stated, there appears to
>    be a need to bring in the warmer outside air.  Also, this would
>    probably increase the air flow would increase evaporation.

Sounds like a good idea to do this. It at least will confirm the idea of adding
ventilation to resolve the problem.

					Bill    

    
    
    	You could also drill a couple of holes in the garage door itself 
    	and install a couple of circular soffet vents, they even have
    	louvers built into them which will keep the rain and rodents out.
    
    	Dean

    Re: .17
    
    Placing vents in the garage door would certainly be EASIER than
    knocking out bricks in the side wall (and mixing mortar) to install 
    venting pipes.
    
    Marshall
    

    
    Why not install a window of some type with a screen. this would
    be nice when it's too cold to work in the garage with the door open.
    just crack the window slightly. Also it would allow a bit more light
    in the garage.
    
    drew
    

    
    	Just remember the comment in .11 about two vents at, preferably,
    different heights in the garage.  If all you do is put in one vent (a
    regular sized vent, that is, I'm not counting "open the garage door all
    the way" as one vent...:-), the air exchange might not be enough to solve
    your problem.  Two vents at different heights, ideally one near the floor
    and the other as high as it can go, in opposite corners of the garage will
    give you the greatest air exchange under most circumstances.  Even if
    there is no wind outside, the difference in air temperature between the
    inside and outside will be enough to cause an air exchange in this
    configuration.
    
    							-craig

    
    
    I've tried leaving both doors open a crack 2-3". This actually
    causes more dampness on the floor. I assume bucause the warm 
    humid air is entering quicker than the floor can warm up or dry out.
    I like the window Idea, and it should work in my case, since one
    of my walls is about 4' of cement, then studed. 
    
    Steve

    steve,
    
    since you like the window idea you might also consider that with
    a window you would also be able to add one of those cheap window
    type fans for real good air circulation.
    
    Drew
    

    Attempting to minimize the proliferation of new topics, I'm attaching
    my question here: Is there any alternative to firerock to make an attic
    "reasonably" fireproof?
    
    My wife and I are going to (sneakily) turn our attic into living space
    -- my "office" and our bedroom. If we're extremely lucky, the inspector
    will never invite himself in, but it's a possibility. We're also
    interested in not getting crisped if the worst happens.
    
    We'd like to avoid putting in a second means of egress, since it will
    chop up the limited usable space in the attic, and make it less sound
    proof. Please advise if this is dumb, dumb, dumb.
    
    We'd also like to avoid hauling all that 5/8" wallboard, if there's any
    alternative. We're intending to cut the fireboard to fit BETWEEN the
    joists, leaving the joists exposed. More fire hazard, I presume.
    Cutting the fireboard makes transporting to the attic MILDLY feasible,
    since this is a TALL three-family house. The fireboard factory will be
    in the basement, and I'll carry the cut-to-fit 27"x8' fireboard
    sections up FIVE flights of narrow stairs; approximately 80 such pieces
    are required!
    
    So is there anything else that isn't a suicide trip? How about
    fire-resistant lumber? That would look better too (I'm not a big
    fireboard fan). Is there a such thing as fire-resistant insulation (we
    have to add that too)?
    
    Any/all answers appreciated -- the prospect of hauling all that
    fireboard is daunting.
    
    Thanks, Hoyt

    ...move your "office" to the basement??
    
    Edd

    RE: .14
    
    Firerock is only required to enclose a garage area.  If the "attic"
    extends over the garage, I would put the firerock in the garage
    ceiling.  The intent of the code is to make an enclosed firebox around
    the garage where there is more likely to be a sreadable fire due to the
    gas present in cars etc.  Other than that, there is no requirement for
    fireproofing that I am aware of.  I am assuming that you are in a
    single family house.  In a condo or apartment arrangement, there is a
    requirement for frirerock and airspace between each unit.
    
    Dan

    If you haven't bought the sheetrock yet, find a dealer that can deliver
    it with a truck equipped with a lift (looks like the front of a
    forklift, except that its on a folding arm). If you have a big enough
    window to fit a 4" wide piece of sheetrock and a spot where the arm
    can access the window, it can be brought it that way, directly into the
    attic.
    
    Eric

    I would suggest reconsidering any attempt to "fool" the building
    inspector, or to subvert the local building code.  Your insurance
    company would not be too pleased with you should there be a loss.
    
    As Eric suggests, sheetrock (and other large materials) can be
    delivered with a lift truck.
    
    				Steve

    Thanks for the replies.
    
    We do NOT have a window large enough to accomodate 4' fireboard; the
    attic has a couple teensy gables, with roughly 2.5' windows. I'm
    interested in "doing the right thing" in terms of safety; however,
    zoning limits prohibit our "officially" adding living area to the
    house, hence the need for discretion. The house a three-family, with
    the first and second floors rented out. We're on the third, and this
    will be part of our space, so the attic is NOT contiguous with another
    living unit.
    
    Hmmm: one of the gables has a rotted window frame, and we DO need to
    replace it. We were thinking of enlarging it slightly, to accomodate an
    air-conditioning unit. In the short run, it COULD be 4' high, perhaps.
    Is that a vertical 4'?
    
    I gather from your responses that there is no "safe" alternative to
    fireboard? Is plain old wallboard sufficient? Is there any other, more
    luggable alternative?
    
    Thanks - Hoyt

>    I gather from your responses that there is no "safe" alternative to
>    fireboard? Is plain old wallboard sufficient? Is there any other, more
>    luggable alternative?
    
      It is true that there is no resonable and safe alternative to fire
      rated gypsum board.  However, please read  the  previous  replies.
      There  doesn't seem to be any reason that you need fire rated wall
      board to finish your attic.  In any case 1/2" vs 5/8"  sheet  rock
      isn't  that  much differnce in handling -- your biggest problem is
      more likely to be size rather than weight.  If you choose to  have
      sheet  rock  delivered  by  a crane check that the crane can reach
      your 4th floor window. I'm not sure that the sheet rock trucks can
      reach  that  high.   Also,  a crane lifting sheetrock will make it
      pretty obvious what your doing  and  could  attract  the  building
      inspectors attention... 
      
      Another  thing  to  consider is whether or not your attic floor is
      strong  enough  to  hold  the  weight  that  will  be  imposed  by
      wallboard, flooring, partitions, funiture, etc. Building codes are
      designed to ensure that your building is both  structurally  sound
      and reasonably fire safe. Not getting a building permit denies you
      the benefit of various safety checks.  As a previous note  implyes
      you  COULD  be exposing your self to uninsured risk, both in terms
      of property insurance and in terms of liability insurance.
      
      I'm not saying you shouldn't continue with what your planning, but
      if you aren't sure about it perhaps you should re-think.   On  the
      other  hand,  if  you  are sure then why are you asking in a notes
      conference?
      
          Sorry if I sound rather negative -- Good luck in any case.

    .re -1
    No, the window does not have to be 4 ft. verticaly.  4 ft. in any
    direction will work, as long as the wallboard can pass through.  For
    instance, if you remove the now rotted window from the wall, the rough
    opening would probably measure at least 4 ft. on the diagonal.  You
    could even remove some of the wall under the window to fit the
    wallboard through and then frame the opening to fit your new Low E,
    double pane, argon filled, vinyl clad, tilt to clean, R-8, super
    window. :^)
    
    All sheetrock will act as a fire barrier.  The 5/8 firerock meets the
    minmum 45 minute burn rating.   Thinner sheetrock will act as a fire
    barrier but does not provide the same amount of protection.  The paper
    on the sheetrock burns but the plaster part will not burn and thereby
    provides a delay until the fire burns through.
    
    I agree with previous replies. I would be more concerned about the
    ceiling/floor joists of your attic.  Commonly attic joists are only 6
    inchs tall and that is not large enough to provide a stable, safe support
    for a floor.  Check the ADDTIONS keyword for more about beefing up the
    joists.  You might also want to check CARPENTRY-FLOORS&ROOFS or
    CARPENTRY-WALLS&POSTS.

    Thanks again for the replies!!
    
    Re -2: I've reread the previous replies, and they've indicated that I
           don't need to install firerock in order to meet the code. The
           code is only incidental to me, given my discrete approach. I'm
           interested in having a safe place for my wife and myself (and
           those who own the house subsequently).
    
    Re -1: I looked at the window last night, and it just MIGHT be feasible
           open it to 4' -- I'll have to see.
    
           Re the strength of the joints: I'll pry up a board to look, but
           I'd be amazed if this were a problem. The house was built in
           1902, when lumber was lumber. I measured the 2x8s that form the
           roof joists, and they're REALLY 2x8 (well, 1 7/8 x 8, anyway).
           These old three-deckers are solid. But I'll look.
    
    Someone kick me in the head so I don't do something totally foolish:
    I'd LOVE to buy some of that rigid insulation that's got the shiny
    metallic surface; cut it to fit between the joists; install it; and be
    DONE. I actually like the look of this stuff. Is it true that this
    stuff would flash into flame extremely quickly, putting out deadly
    fumes all the while?
    
    - Hoyt

    re. .23  "and those who own the house subsequently"
    
    	You will find it very difficult to sell a house which doesn't have
    all the proper permits.  First, most people will check with the local
    building inspector to make sure the house conforms to whatever zoning
    is in effect.  Then, of course, you would tell the buyers that the
    permits weren't pulled and that the house doesn't conform to local
    codes...failure to do this leaves you in a very bad legal position
    considering you obviously know what you are doing is wrong.  Pay now
    or pay later...much better to ask for a variance.
    Ric

    re -1: "Pay now or pay later...much better to ask for a variance."

    There is literally NO way to get a variance. I talked with the
    pertinent town official, who says "Sorry, we really didn't intend to
    effect people like you, who are operating within the envelope of their
    existing structure, but reading the by-laws: there's no applicable
    condition which makes a variance possible. We'd give you one if we
    could, but we can't, the way the by-law is written." I'd be delighted
    to do it the right way. I hate NOT doing it the right way. We have no
    choice, except not doing it at all, which will result in divorce and/or
    pedicide (8^).
    
    Incidentally, when we investigated this issue with our OLD three-decker
    (in the same town) the relevant official whispered "Don't quote me
    please, but why don't you simply DO it." (I hope I can quote him/her
    without attribution.) While we ignored him/her and obeyed the letter of 
    the law, at least three of our neighboring three-deckers (with the
    identical legal constraint) went ahead and (illegally) converted their
    attics.
    
    I believe the building codes are useful, up to a point. In a former
    life, I was interested in and informed about the uses of government to
    secure marketplace advantages for professions, and I'm convinced that
    the present rules in large part serve to keep electricians and plumbers
    wealthy. My wife and I just spent $35,000 renovating the three
    apartments in the house, and all permits were pulled and all those
    outrageous monopoly rents were paid (am I entirely wrong in thinking
    that most intelligent folk could learn to be a 95%-proficient plumber
    in about three months of full-time instruction?). I'd continue to do it
    the official way, if I could, but the town by-laws are not amenable.
    
    As for difficulties re-selling: You might be right, but I doubt it. My
    wife and I aren't real experienced (just two houses), but OUR criteria
    are (1) would we like to live here, and (2) can we finance it? Those
    are almost sufficient; secondary criteria are (3) are there structural
    problems which will cost us a fortune to fix and (4) are there any
    health hazards present (e.g. urea foam insulation)? Way, way down on
    the list is (99) "were all the proper permits pulled?" We've never
    gotten to that one, in fact. Maybe we're dumb and/or naive. Also, isn't
    it always the case that "It was here when we bought the house" is a
    justification for almost anything?
    
    I'm not feeling real "right" here -- we're novices, and I eagerly
    solicit your advice. I'm not trying to argue, just expressing my
    convictions.
    
    I *am* concerned about insurance. I've heard that the insurance company
    won't pay off, if your house burns down and they can establish that it
    was due to no-permit uninspected improvements. This would leave us
    bankrupt, I guess. That's why we will USE real electricians, at those
    monopoly rents (and they're comfortable working without permits, by the
    way), to minimize the chances that the house burns down. And that's why
    I'm trying to figure out about fire-proofing!
    
    Thanks for your help, all. - Hoyt

re: << Note 1570.25 by DOOLIN::HNELSON >>>
                           -< How about that solid insulation idea? >-

>    There is literally NO way to get a variance.

      What an absolutely ridiculous situation!  You have my sympathy.
    
>    I believe the building codes are useful, up to a point.

      I  agree that building codes frequently work primarily to maintain
      a monopoly for licensed tradespeople who are often less  competent
      and almost always less concerned than proactive homeowners.

>    As for difficulties re-selling: ...  can we finance it? 
      
      Don't  make  the assumption that financing would be available on a
      re-sale.  If a financer found  out  that  the  home  was  enlarged
      without  a  building  permit  and hence does not have an occupancy
      permit, financing would suddenly become a big problem.   No,  this
      isn't  likely,  but  it  is something to consider.  BTW it is also
      possible that by making "illegal" additions/improvements  you  are
      technically violating your present mortgage.

>    I *am* concerned about insurance. I've heard that the insurance company
>    won't pay off, if your house burns down and they can establish that it
>    was due to no-permit uninspected improvements.
      
      An  insurance  company  _might_  refuse  to insure a property with
      non-permit  additions/improvements.   This  is  another   unlikely
      situation  that  you  have  to  consider.  However, once insured I
      believe that the insurance company would have to  prove  that  the
      improvements were unsafe and not to code in order to refuse to pay
      a claim.  The lack of a permit and inspection might be taken  into
      consideration, but I don't think it would be the whole story.
      
      Again,  the usual disclaimer that I'm not an authority on building
      codes and/or insurance.

    RE: Isocyanurate rigid foam insulation with foil
    
    This material is flammable and building code requires that it be
    covered with sheetrock between it and a living space.
    
    -al

    Thanks, Al. I guess I have to face the music (a couple hundred trips up
    four flights of stairs).
    
    - Hoyt

    re -.2 
    
    Al, does this apply to foam insulation without the foil. Like the
    material one would use on the outside foundation?
    
    Steve

    Re: .29
    
    Yes, it does.  The foam must be covered by a non-combustible surface.
    
    			Steve

    I think it only has to be covered by a non-combustible surface if
    the foam is exposed to the interior.  If the foam is say applied
    to you foundation (above grade) then you don't have to cover it
    with anything.  The only problem is is that the foam breaks down
    when exposed to U/V (aka sunlight) which is why exterior foam is
    either backfilled or covered with a stucco like material.
    
    -al

Re: .31

Yes, interior exposure only - that's what I had meant to say.

			Steve

    Guys, before Hoyt hauls up all that sheetrock (after which, he'll do
    his imitation of "the Hunchback of Notre Dame" :-), do you think that
    3/8" rock will suffice, as opposed to 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock?
    
    Dick

    .re -1
    
    3/8" would cover the joists and provide the sheetrock wall.  5/8"
    Firerock will provide fire protection which the thinner could not
    provide.  If all he wants is to cover the joists, then go for the
    thinner sheetrock.

    Yes, that's what I thought -- would it be sufficient covering for this
    rigid insulation?
    
    For that matter, if weight is a concern, do you think he could apply
    stucco or some such?
    
    Dick

      What is the spacing of the studs/rafters on which the sheetrock is
      being applied?  If they're more than 16" on center  I'd  recommend
      1/2  inch  rather  than 3/8".  I'm not sure what if anything codes
      have to say about this, but I find that 3/8 inch sheet rock  isn't
      nearly  as  strong  and  solid feeling as 1/2".  If it weren't for
      having to carry it up three flights of stairs I'd go 1/2"  in  any
      case. 

>                       <<< Note 985.2 by CSC32::WATERS >>>
>                   -< I'd suggest sheet metal under roof(?) >-

 
I know this note is 3 years old but...

I was considering using the space under my raised deck (~6-7 ft room below the
joists) for something storage/garage for car/screened patio.  I was wondering
(after a couple years have passed since the deck in .2 was built) if there was
any problem with the sheet metal trapping water/snow such that ice formed
between the decking planks and caused damage?

Also, was the sheet metal was on top of the joists (below the decking) or below
the joists?  If the former, was it tight against the decking or sagged between
each joist?  

                                                                _Mike

    Gee, thanks for taking up this conversation. I'm back on the job.
    
    The spacing between rafters varies between 18 and 22 inches. I guess
    that means 1/2". But is that firecode-compliant? I've re-read the
    preceding dozen or so, and Al said I needed firerock, then someone else
    said that "non-combustible" 3/8 would do.
    
    The plan is to put the insulation AND the sheetrock BETWEEN the joists,
    using moldings on the joists to hold the sheetrock:
    
        ----------------------------
        | |    \------------/      | vent
        |j|%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%| foam insulation
        |o|=                      =| molding
        |i|++++++++++++++++++++++++| sheetrock
        |s|=                      =| molding
        |t|                        |
        ---                        ---
    
    A neighbor did this and it looks good. It might be an undogly amount of
    work, though.
    
    Suggestions? - Hoyt

    Hmmmm. Maybe the vent isn't needed, as long as I leave a space between
    the wood of the roof and the rigid foam?
    
    - Hoyt

    By vent I assume you mean the propa-vents.   You need an airspace which
    will allow the roof sheathing to breath and ventilate.  As long as you
    leave an air space you should be ok.  The propa-vent ensures that you
    have a uniform air space.  In theory, you could install your rigid foam
    and leave an air space and eliminate one step in your process.
    
    It seems that by installing the sheetrock between the joists that you
    are creating a lot of work for yourself.  You now have a lot more area
    to paint and maintain.  You have your exposed joists, molding, and
    sheetrock.  You also have all that cutting and fitting which is going
    to make your installation time triple or more over sheetrock on top of
    the joists.
    
    I am trying to talk you out of it because of the work invovled.  I have
    often done the things the hard way when working on my house because I
    wanted it to look a certain way and I was willing to put in the extra
    time.  It made me happy but I am not always sure after the fact if it
    was worth the extra effort.
    

    Thanks for the advice (.39).
    
    It's SORT OF more work to do it the way I've drawn. There are a lot of
    moldings to finish and install, but they are light and cheap and I can
    design something like a production line. The joists aren't a
    maintenance problem, because I'm leaving them as is. In a way, it's a
    labor savings, because there will be comparatively little work to do
    with the wallboard: I only need to cover one seam (what's that process
    called?) per joist-wall. More importantly, my wallboard cutting factory
    is in the basement, and I'm only hauling 18-22" wide segments up all
    those stairs.
    
    The attic will be done in pieces. I'll do the smaller room in this
    fashion, and if it's going to take me til the millenium to complete,
    then I'll probably try plan 2.
    
    Thanks, Hoyt

>    	I began thinking about combining the two projects, build a garage
>    with a cellar in it. While this is non-standard residential
>    construction, I think it could be done. I could use either pre-stressed
>    concrete panels for the floor, or key the foundation and use a steel
>    truss floor and pour on top of it to provide the garage floor.
    This seems similar to what I've seen, and am considering for the
    garage of our home_still_in_the_planning_stage.
    Looking at open houses a while back, I saw a standard colonial with
    what I thought was a 3 car garage. In reality, it was 4. Three in
    front, basically at living level, and one on the side, under the
    other 3. The land was sloping which would have accomodated a garage
    under, but this obviously had both. The broker showing the house had
    no clue (what a surprise!) as to the complexity or cost in doing this,
    but the idea intrigued me. I'd like to me able to keep all the non-car
    stuff in the space under, and have the garage used for cars only.
    Depending on where the house is located on our lot, it could probably
    handle this w/o a whole lot of digging. Does anyone know the cost, work,
    complexity of a job like this?
    
    John

    RE:.45,
    
    
    My in-laws have a garage like you described, 2 car up and 2 car
    below, with the floor/ceiling being precast concrete, it was built
    10 years ago. I can ask them how much it cost if you want.
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    re .-1
    That'd be great if you could. If they have any comments to add, please
    pass them along - like how it's held up over the years, etc.
    
    Thanks,
    John

    
    Re -.45
    
        I wanted to do the same thing at my house. Because the land slopes 
    back I wanted to have a garage over a basement or garage over garage.
    The town of Westford, Mass. would not allow this type of construction.
    They will not allow any space under a garage floor.
         Check with your town.
    
    Bill

    re .-1
    That's a shame. Pretty rediculous, I might add. Bad enough we have
    too many regulations to protect us from ourselves. Certainly don't
    need any to protect our lawnmowers from our cars!
    Did you happen to get any quotes, or other info before the town
    killed it?
    
    John

Carbon monoxide, and other exhaust poisons, sink to the floor.  If there
is a space below the garage floor, it could potentially become filled
with deadly gasses.  This is less of a problem if the garage floor is
at the low point, since there tends to be some ventilation under the
garage door.  It is much harder to safely vent poisonous gasses to the 
outside if one must also keep them from sinking within the house.

There are ways to deal with this potential problem, but it is not totally
irrational of the town building inspectors to not want to have to deal
with it.  Their job is to make sure the structure is reasonably safe to
start with and likely to remain so.  Remember, the house stays in the town
*long* after the builder has moved on.  We'd all be in big trouble if
people who build houses professionally were not forced to conform to basic
safety rules, and the line between riddiculous restrictions and
conservative safety rules is hard to map out.

That said, I saw a really neat house renovation in Practical Homeowner.
The lot was steeply sloping away from the street, so they put the
garage on the top floor street side, with storage and utility rooms
under it, and with living space beside and below the garage at the
back of the house -- with beautiful views off the hillside.  Before
this, the house had steep driveways down from the street to the lower
house level -- even without ice and snow, it must have been a pain.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Hello, Mr. Moderator here.

We have a note tailor made to accept these divergent discussions about the
validity of building codes.  Lets just say that I strongly disagree with the 
statement:

"We'd all be in big trouble if people who build houses professionally were not
forced to conform to basic safety rules,"

and if you'd like to continue this aspect of this discussion, please take it
to note 3565.

Discussions about the specifics of regulations of spaces under garage floors
are of course still appropriate to this note.

Paul 

re .50:

Nit:

Carbon Monoxide is not denser than air, it has the same density as air.  It
will, therefore, not tend to sink (or rise).  Most hydrocarbons and carbon
DIoxide (which isn't poisonous, but can suffocate) are denser, and will tend to
sink.

-Mike

    
    	On the subject of garages ...
    
    	My neighbor just finished [basically] a 50x25' garage and is
    	trying to do the following:
    
    	He wants to put in a suspended ceiling, and he wants the roll-
    	up doors to "disappear" above the ceiling when open.
    
    	This poses a problem ... now there will be a 9'x7' section of
    	ceiling above each door that's not supported, and will begin
    	to bow because of the weight.  Is there a way to support the
    	ceiling and still be able to roll the [segmented] garage doors
    	above the ceiling?  Thanks for any info.
    
    							GTI
    

    re: .53
    
    Neat idea!  I'd think he could put some bracing (2x4?  4x4?) across
    the gap and hang the ceiling from that.  The ceiling doesn't weigh that
    much...
    
    Willie

RE:  Bad Fumes in Garage


	I saw some new construction in Northampton Mass. that had a vent on
each side of the two car garage.  These vents were installed about shoulder
hight.  They were identical to the gable end attic vents that you see in lots
of houses.  They were about 12 inches across and about 18 inches tall.

	My brother, who worked on the job, seemed to think that they were 
required by code.  I don't think that it is required by Mass. building code,
but maybe the local town.

Re.37
Unless the joists are covered by the firerock you won't have an firewall
(ceiling) the exposed joists would catch fire in seconds -vs- minutes
with the firerock covering.

-j

How about a span of angle iron to hang the hangers from?  It would not take
up as much room as a 2x4 and should be a tad stronger, no?

    
    	RE: .56
    
    	The roof is a truss set-up ... 2' apart, so space isn't really
    	an issue.  The "attic" is useless, so anything that will fit
    	between the trusses and the suspended ceiling will be fine.
    
    	I think I like the 2x4 brace idea ... after the door tracks
    	are put up, 2x4's can be run vertically between the doors, and
    	then 10' lengths can be run between the verticals to create
    	"false rafters" to hang the ceiling in the places where the
    	doors will be.  As long as this will all fit below the door
    	tracks and high enough so that people aren't hitting their
    	heads on the ceiling, of course.  But it should work fine.
    
    							GTI
    

    Re: exhausting fumes from garages...
    
    In some of the bigger mechanic's shops, I've seen hoses that clamp to
    the car's tailpipe, then are run to a pipe that protrudes thru the door
    (exhausting the fumes outside directly, no fumes in the shop). Anyone
    know who supplies this stuff? This would solve the problem better...
    
    Fred

    
    	But that involves punching a hole in a garage door, or some-
    	where in a wall to stick the hose through.
    
    	My neighbor has 3 roll-up doors in his garage downtown, and he
    	has a hole towards the bottom of each one ... with a "flapper"
    	over each hole to keep them covered when not being used as
    	vents.
    
    							GTI
    

    No, the garages have a metal pipe permanently installed in the door,
    and hook the hose to that, and the pipe has a flap on the outside
    to keep out weather when not used. Sure beats carbon-monoxide...
    
    That's how I plan to do it when I build my garages next summer...
    
    Fred

    Or you can bury the pipe in the floor, with a blower inline to suck the
    fumes out.  This is common at places like Sears, or the larger dealers.  
    In my garage, I have ten foot plastered ceilings, and an opening for a
    small whole house fan.
    
    Carl

The snow that melts off my vehicles in the winter freezes in small puddles
on the garage floor and has chipped the concrete leaving small craters.

After patching, I want to seal the surface from the salt and ice.  I have
read notes discussing how to suppress moisture from entering from below
the concrete, but what is the proper sealant to repel salt and moisture
from above?  Is Thompsons water seal the right stuff?

    re: .23
    
     My suggestion would be to get the floor good and clean and then use a
    good epoxy based floor enamel- looks good, and keeps water,grease,oil
    etc. from getting into the concrete. It is a bit of work and the
    weather might be a bit too cold unless you heat the garage.
    
     YOu will need good ventilation if you use an epoxy or an oil based
    floor and deck enamel.
    
    Dick
    
    

I ended up putting down 'Drylok' masonry primer/sealer. Most of it seems to 
have been absorbed into the concrete, so I doubt it will provide much 
protection this year.  However, it should serve as a good primer for an
epoxy based enamel (...next spring, perhaps!).  

Thanks for the tip in .23.

Peter

    Anybody know what the going rate is for blasting through ledge
    (to build a basement)?  Many years ago it used to be $40 per
    cubic yard (Is that how they still measure it?).  Anyone have
    current figures for the New England area?
    
    -g

   Let's get this discussion rolling again....
   Has anyone considered in putting in a garage to have a "pit" as part
   of the design ( sort of like those quick oil change places) ?  What would 
    be a good way to cover it up when not in use? Sliding panels?  This would
    be an ideal situation for a car buff who spends alot of time under the car.

    If I remember, there were some major issues with safety - both
    'falling' into the pit and the removal of gas/oil spills and fumes.
    
    There was a question of legality.
    
    This may have been discussed in detail in CARBUFFS.
    
    	-Barry-
    
    PS- an alternative may be the new double car parking lift gadgets - ie,
    it picks one car up over the other and lets you park 2 cars in the same
    'footprint' with about 8 or 9 feet of ceiling height required.  They
    advertise that you can use this lift for service as well.  Prices were
    in the $2k - $5k range if I remember.
    

    
    I know that in NY they are illegal. It may not be the whole state, but
    at least some parts of the state. Illegal or not I'd never put one it.
    Too many safety problems to over come. Plus the fact that they don't
    work that well. There are many things you can't do with a pit that
    you can with a lift. A pits only big advantage over other systems is
    cost.
    
    Mike

    There is the *BIG* problem that gasoline fumes are heavier than air.
    I can easily see a scenario where you fill up your lawnmower in the
    garage, slop a little gasoline around, the fumes flow down into the
    pit.  Later that day you decide to work on your car so you drive in,
    take yourself and a droplight down into the pit, and manage to break
    the bulb in the droplight, igniting the gasoline fumes and blowing
    yourself sky-high.
    There are some real horror stories of exploding gasoline fumes in
    one or another of these notesfiles.  A couple of years ago a boy was
    burned to death in Framingham when gasoline fumes ignited in a garage.
    It was pretty grim.

    Before I bought my current house, I looked at a house which had a "pit"
    in one side of the garage (two-car garage).  This was in Hudson, MA,
    but that house is no longer on that site anyhow (business next door
    expanded - I found out it was going to and did not buy that house -
    would have like the big garage!).  I don't know if you can still build
    one that way, though.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Don't do it.  It IS illegal in NH.
    
    .3 has the problem.  Gasoline is heavier than air.  
    
    Actually, they are only illegal if do not have an approved explosion
    proof ventilation system.  Of course, this is why you don't see them
    anymore.  The vent system is probably more expensive than the lift and
    the lift is more useful.
    
    There have been a lot of cases where the guy working in the pit just
    kind of slumped over and if he didn't get noticed in time ...
    There doesn't have to be an explosion for death to occur.  The gases
    that are heavier than air displace the oxygen.  I'm not sure if carbon
    monoxide is heavier than air or not.

There are some lifts that raise the car about 3 feet off the ground for less 
than $2k.  They are great for replacing tires, but you can also crawl around 
under the car at that height.  A lot safer than a pit and they are also
'portable' to some extent.

Dave

    The best variation I've seen on this is the outdoor flight of stairs
    with flanking concrete walls.  (Just make sure the stairs are narrower
    than the car! ;-) ;-)  The ones I've seen were open to the driveway at
    the bottom, eliminating the fume hazard.  Of course, you had to drive
    on the lawn around the house to get to the top, but it worked!!
    
    Carl
    

    So, the inevitable question remains:
    
    Where are these lifts available from, I'd like to get one in the future
    (the $2k ones with full height lift, not the 3 ft. ones).
    
    Fred

I just recieved a catalog from Harbor Tool (associated with Harbor Freight) in
California.  They have a full height lift for around $2500 (if I remember
correctly).

- Mark

    Did you ever try working with your arms held up in the air for any
    length of time.  It ain't easy.  If you work on cars a lot (I do), just
    buy some good jack stands, a good floor jack, and a creeper.  Then you
    lay under the car with your head resting on the creeper.  Very relaxing
    :-)
    
    Steve

    Looking thru an old Hemmings I came across an ad for "the Car Stacker".
    The picture shows a '31 Ford A on the top "bunk", and a Porche 928 under.
    
    No cost given.  Phone number in the ad is 800-544-6849.  
    
    I also saw an ad last night in the Jan 91 HMN for a "new" cost 
    reduced version of stack-n-park.  They listed 2 models; one for 
    $6500 installed, $5500 do_it_yourself and a second version for 
    $4500 installed, $3500 DIY.   Differences were in capacity rating,
    platform construction, length etc.  If I remember correctly, version 
    2 requires 9' of head room; platform is 10' long.  From looking at 
    the picture, it looks like fully raised, the platform is only about 
    4' or 5' high.  This might be a consideration if you're planning to 
    use it for undercar service (unless your <real> short)!
    
    Probably OK for an occasional Oil Change tho.
    
    I'll post their phone number and details later.
    
    
    here 
    

    > $6500 installed, $5500 do_it_yourself and a second version for 
    > $4500 installed, $3500 DIY.   Differences were in capacity rating,
    
    > Probably OK for an occasional Oil Change tho.
    
    For $6500 I'll change your oil for the life of you car and you don't
    even have to get your hands dirty :-)
    
    Steve

    Hey Steve, they don't sell these things as "lifts to work on your car"!
    They're intended to be an alternative to adding bricks/morter/wood in the
    form of another garage bay; or for folks with limited land.  Personally,
    if I needed more space, I'd invest the $3.5 K into adding-on to my existing
    garage.  You're right though, even paying $20.00 a shot at Speedy-Lube,
    $6500 buys alot of Oil Changes.
    
    More info on the ad I referenced earlier...
    The Company name is: Parking Solutions
    Phone: 213-536-0162  or  800-359-5021
    Specs:                 
                           Full Size Lift                    Mid Size Lift
               Platform:      13' x 7'                        10' x 6 1/2'
                                  6'& 6 1/2 Opt.
    
               Surface:    Steel Diamond Plate              Hardwood Planking
      
    
               Capacity:   Lifts 6000 lbs                   Lifts 3900 lbs
    
               Prices:     Installed: $5,550                Installed: $4,250
                           DIY:       $4,550                DIY:       $3,550
                                                            (AD states "rent 
                                                             a Genie Lift for
                                                             installation") 
    
    Standard disclaimer: I know nothing about this company, their products
    and/or reputation.
    
    Jim
    

My father-in-law got around the pit problem (they are illegal in most parts of
MA without lots of expensive equipment) in a bit of a different way.  He built
a spilt level garage.  There is a car parking area, and at the back of this is
a work area, about 3-4 feet lower.  This area is a walk out area (house also 
has a walk out basement).  Since there is a door back there, the area does not 
qualify as an enclosed pit.  He built two ramps and can drive the car forward 
to work on it.  The best part of this is that he can sit on a swivel chair and 
roll back and forth from his work bench and tool box to the car.

    what thickness of foam are you using for insulation... whats the R
    value?
    
    don't forget the vapor barrier, ridge vent and soffits...
    
    Fra

A year and a half ago, in central Mass., I got 100 - 180 cubic yards 
blasted out for $5000, plus the cost of the excavator needed to set
the mat over the charges, and plus the cost of removing all that rock.
The excavator was $600 a day for 3 days plus operator, not sure if I
got a good deal there.  The blaster wanted to charge me more than
$5000 until I pointed out that he mentioned $5K as his worst case price.

	Larry

    I was looking at a split-entry house for sale (in MA) the other day and
    noticed something which I thought was rather strange.  The house had a
    2 car garage underneath the bedrooms.  The door leading to the garage
    from the family room in the lower level is wood with a glass window. 
    The gas fired furnace and hot water heater were in the garage and out
    in the open.
    
    I owned a ranch in Texas with a 2 car attached garage.  The door from
    the living area to the garage was made of steel.  The hot water heater
    and furnace were both in the garage, however they were each in their
    own closet with ventilated doors.
    
    The owner of the split said they bought the house 5 years ago (the
    house itself is about 30 yrs. old) and the home inspector didn't say
    anything about the furnace and hot water heater being in the garage,
    nor the wooden door.  I would think this would be against building
    codes, or at the least present a safety concern.  Anybody know for
    sure?

    The house mentioned in .-1 was built way before the fire codes required
    complete fire protection.  If you are concerned about this, the
    simplest solution would be to install a fire door between the garage
    and the living space, and to install 5/8" firerock on the walls and
    ceiling of the garage.  The above two items would bring the garage to
    current fire code.
    
    Dan

    re .6:  But that doesn't address the exposed furnace and hot water
    heater.  Are there codes which address this situation, or is it a
    non-issue?  It seems risky to me.  I can envision a gust of wind
    blowing out the pilot light of the furnace as I drive out of the garage
    in the morning.  What would happen when I pull the car back into the
    garage later that evening?  Boom?

    > Boom?
    
    Gas-fired appliances have a device called a thermocouple. It sits
    right *in* the pilot flame. As long as the device is hot, gas can
    flow. Should the device cool down, indicative of "pilot out", the 
    flow of gas is shut off.
    
    Edd

The main concern around having a furnace in the garage is gas leaking
from the car and being ignited from the furnace. I had a boiler installed in
my garage and it was placed up on cement blocks off the floor level. The idea
being gas vapors sink (heavier than air). In any case it passed inspection.

Ross

    A lot of local codes require gas-fired water heaters located in a
    garage to be placed upon a platform which raises the burner of the
    water heater eighteen inches above floor level.  Since many boilers
    also have a flame "close to the ground" .9's suggestion makes a lot
    of sense.

    I am not sure if this is the proper place for this note. But,...
    
    Where can I get the best price on steel shelving units? I priced them
    at SL for around $23 for 16x36x72 (guess) Sears is a dollar less.
    Anywhere else???

HQ (Home Quarters Warehouse) in SHrewsbury has a 12x30x60 metal shelf unit 
for $9.29 starting Thursday for a week -- part of their grand opening sale.
There's a $3 rebate on the first one you buy, too.

	Larry

    No experience, but it seems to me your contractor is going a little
    overboard. How can he be liable if the town allows garage floor drains?
    I would confirm what you want to do is acceptable to the town, then
    tell him to do it or get another contractor who will!
    Of course, if the town says no, he's certainly acting properly by not
    doing one. There you have another problem. You have to convince the
    town, not your contractor.
    
    John

    
    Thats kind of stupid. I wouldn't own a garage without one.
    
    Mike

I thought garage floors were required to be sloped to the doors.  If so, a
drain won't help.

We've yet to have any problems such as you described in .26.  

   Gary

    This probably belongs in the 'why did they ever do that' topic, but..
    
    The bozo who owned my house before me (original owner for 35+ years)
    had the driveway repaved and the driveway is about an inch higher than
    the garage floor!  This a 2 car TANDEM (that's another story) garage
    under the house with the entrance in the rear.  There is a slight pitch
    from the garage door to the back lawn, but not enough to be able to
    bring the level down below the garage floor. 
    
    Anybody have any ideas how to solve this problem??
    
    BTW, no water comes in, but when the snow melts off the car, there
    ain't no place to go.
    
    	-Barry-
    

RE: .31

    Move back down south :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

- Mark

    
    A previous owner of my house solved the problem by **drilling holes** in
    the floor. I call it the "three stooges approach" because it sounds
    like something they'd do.
    
    Steve
    

    Re .33
    
    The previous owner of our house not only drilled holes in the garage
    floor to let out the water, he did the same thing in the basement!
    
    This guy was an engineer, by the way.
    
    d
    

I am confused.  Why would it not be a good idea to drill holes in a garage to
give water a place to drain?  I realize that fixing the grading is the "right"
way, but many times it might be too expensive.

Ed..

    Re .34
    
    Without appropriate subsurface preparation, like a drain or dry well,
    drilling a hole in the floor of a garage is just as likely to let water
    in as let water out.
    
    You'd have to take up the garage floor and do the below-grade work
    first.
    
    pbm
    

    re:  holes in garage floor
    
    My next door neighbor - we have a 'common doublewidth driveway' between
    our houses - had a 'drain' in her garage floor.  Two years ago, during
    a massive rain, the drain reversed itself, flooded her garage with
    about a foot of water or more and totalled her Honda!
    
    Last year, she had her driveway and garage floor dug up, drained
    correctly, a new floor poured, a new driveway put down (I split the
    cost for the common portion from the street) and had her backyard
    graded to carry the water off.  The total bill was about $10k.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    Bruce,
    
    I was told that same thing by one contractor that bid on my garage.
    There are specific types of floor drains that are designed to hold
    gas and oil in case of a spill. I'm told these are real expensive. 
    Since the back of my garage is about 2 foot over grade the drain
    dumps out at grade level, not underground. I installed the type 
    of drain that would catch sand/dirt, and I suppose some oil or gas,
    but works on a overflow principle. It has a removable top that lets 
    you clean out all the debris that collects. I would think that as
    long as your not going to a dry well or just letting the pipe lay
    underground you might be able to get away with this approach. I mean
    whats the difference if the floor is pitched to allow gas or oil to
    run out on the ground verses letting it run through a pipe to run
    on the ground? I'm sure a building inspector would know?????. 
    
    Ray 

    I'm in the process of buying a home and would like to add a carport to
    it.  I'm looking for any kind of advice that people could give me, such
    as:
    
    - build it myself or use a contractor? how does the cost compare?
    
    - metal or wood?
    
    - if I build it myself, should I buy a kit, or try to find plans and 
      buy the materials separately?
    
    - sources for carport kits?
    
    - sources for carport plans?
    
    - attached vs. freestanding?
    
    Some background information:  The house is located at 8000' about 10
    miles west of Colorado Springs.  I have a fairly high 4WD with a
    roofrack, so I may want a higher than normal clearance.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    
    

I think you would do better rethinking "carport". You will note that there
are relitevly few carports in the Springs since the snow/rain is almost
always accompanied by a wind strong enough to defeat the purpose. I've heard
it said that most of the snow seen in Colorado actually starts in Wyoming
and is just on it's way to New Mexico....

Mickey.

    anyone have a good idea of the cost of adding in a 2 car - under garage
    in to a 26x36 colonial, WHILE ITS BEING BUILT?
    
    what about the current cost of an "average" size attached garage on the 
    same house, as it built?
    
    and finally, house about having the foundation for the attached garage
    pour and capped (till I can afford to build the garage), while the
    house it built?
    
    thanks for any help...
    
    -jeff
    

    Well, in NH last year (Ashwood Homes), 2-car attached was $12k;
    2-car under was about half that, I believe.  That's a 24x24
    attached, separate doors.

    re: .63
    
    so your saying they wanted to charge about $6k for the under garage?
    

Granted that's a while ago but I can't imagine it getting all the much more
expensive. The build was charging about $10K for an attached garage at the
time.

						Trace

    
    If you're looking for a lift, keep an eye open for a garage which is
    being torn down. My father-in-law bought a used lift and a BIG compressor 
    (10 Hp with a 100 gallon tank!) for $500. He can run the lift and several
    air tools at once. He owned a station for a while so he knew what to
    look for concerning wear and tear. Just be sure to give the lift a good
    inspection before buying.
    
    		Bob A. 

Check out Mean's estimating guide for building houses -- it lists the 
incremental prices of most normal things you'd put in a house, including
the type of garage you ask about, with both breakdowns and a total price.
They carry it at Spag's -- if this is the only number you want, just 
grab one off the rack, look up that number, and put it back.  However,
if I were planning to have a house built, I think I'd want to own my
own copy, so that I could compare the prices the contractor gives to
an impartial authority.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

For a mere $3200 (plus shipping) you can get an electric post lift which needs
no in-ground installation.  Put in place, bolt to floor, add 230V circuit and there
you are.

Maybe these are available used also.

I've seen these advertized in flyers I get from Harbor Salvage Co. of Camarillo CA.

Chris

With Harbor Salvage, as long as you buy more than $50 worth of stuff shipping
is free.  At least it was the last time I ordered something.....

Dave

    re: .39
    Hydraulic cement.  It expands (slightly) when hardening; regular
    cement contracts slightly when hardening.  You can probably buy
    a 5- or 10-lb bag at the hardware store.

    Thanks Steve,
    
    That was the sort of thing I was looking for--just didn't know if they
    made it or what it was called.
    
    -Randy

>    Hydraulic cement.  It expands (slightly) when hardening; regular
>    cement contracts slightly when hardening. 

Yup. That's the stuff.

>You can probably buy a 5- or 10-lb bag at the hardware store.

For a couple of holes? Yowie Wowie! Big bucks. I bought a one quart can
of the stuff for something like $15-$20. I don't remember exactly but I
do remember it was _real_ expensive. (Somerville)

Since I only used a bit of the stuff, let me see if I can find what's left.
Maybe we can do some trading or something. I'm in the Shrewsbury/Northboro
area.

Mickey.

    It may come in 1-lb bags.  I haven't bought any for ages, so I
    don't remember.  Agreed - for a couple of holes, you won't need
    much.

    I hope it does come in small amounts--I'll check the hardware stores on 
    my every other week run to get stuff to fix the house.  If it doesn't,
    I'll ask in here if anyone has some left over from a previous job...
    
    -Randy

I've tried looking through all the notes with the keyword garage, 
but none suited my need.  I'm planning on (someday soon) building a 
detached garage and was interested in finding out about DIY kits.

Has anyone out there done this (build a kit-based garage)?  Where 
can I find or order catalogs?  Pointers to notes that can be of help
would also be appreciated.

Ron

RE: <<< Note 4611.0 by CARROL::PACHECO "RON" >>>
    

 Don't know where you're located but there is a place in Hookset NH on 
rt.3/28 just north of Wallmart on the same side of the road that builds prefab 
type garages.

  Name of the place is New England Woodmaster or something like that and its 
right beside the Kawasaki Motor Cycle dealership and right across the street 
from Tire Wholesale.

    
    Grossman's has a brochure that has them. Not sure of the price.
    
    You might also want to check on getting a set of plans, and seeing how
    much it would cost you from scratch. Walls would be easy enough, and
    the doors are premaid. All you'd have to do is find someone to make
    the roof trusses and deliver them.

    re .0, I did this several years ago. I had a log home with a gambreil
    roof and wanted a detached garage with the same style roof, only with the
    roof line running perpendicular to the house roof lines. I wanted it to
    look like a barn, basically, and in our rural setting, it was quite
    appropriate. 
    
    I went to 84 lumber and selected a bluprint that closely matched what I
    wanted, complete with picture of finished product and materials list.
    I don't know if you have them (84's) in your area, but most lumber outlets
    probably have similar plans available. 
    
    I then went to their bulliten board and asked the manager to point out
    five of what he felt were the most reliable and professional local
    contractors. He did and I called them all to come out and give an
    estimate. Out of the five four showed up, inspected the site, inspected
    the plans, with my changes, and gave me a quote. 
    
    I went with the one who was on time for out meeting, was willing for me
    to inspect other additions and garages he had built in the area,
    offered low cost, short time to completiuon guranteed, and acceptable 
    terms (i.e. I don't pay the bulk of the money until the job is done to my 
    satisfaction.) There was going to be considerable excavation of a 
    hillside involved.
    
    The 24 x 24 garage with two seperated doors with  openers, a side entrance
    electric, flood lights, cost $7400.00 and it was done in 3 weeks,
    start to finish.
    
    Not exactly DYI, but I felt an efficient use of resources and time
    considering the log home appearance design features I had him
    incorporate and landscaping issues.
    
    Dave Kinney

    
    
    	Need a rough, basic estimate on how much a basic/slab
    	garage would cost.
    
    	The size would be say 20' x 20', no insulation, some
    	electrical, 2 car size, clapboard, to be attached to
    	a house. Nothing fancy,
    
    	Any ball park figure, just so I have some idea as to
    	what to expect.
    
    	Thanks
    	BA

>    	The size would be say 20' x 20', no insulation, some
>    	electrical, 2 car size, clapboard, to be attached to
>    	a house. Nothing fancy,

No cost just a thought.  I would go bigger than 20' X 20'.  Take it from 
experience.  When we had our house build the builder was going to put a
24' X 24' in.  We opted for 20' X 20' to save money,  DUMB MOVE.  We have 
a full sized wagon, and a Trooper (not the cars we had when we made our 
mines up, we started with a Honda Civic and Cote Vista (big difference)) and 
opening the car doors now is a pain.  As it is length wise the wagon has maybe 
2 feet to spare once it in and the garage door is closed.  Also if you have 
support poles in the center between the two bays (we had to since our family 
room is over the garage) you will have to get smaller (width wise 8' rather 
than 9') garage doors.  Lucky for us we have a walk in basement off the garage 
so we can put our bikes, mower, etc. in the basement when not in use.  Of 
course we have move a car out of the way to get them out to use them.

						     Live and learn,
							- Rick -

re: .0

We're planning an addition and garage and after having looked at
various sized garage plans, I opted to go for a 24X24. There are
a whole host of plans available in places like Somerville Lumber,
Grossmans, etc, that, for around $8 will give you enough information 
to work with.  Complete BOM, elevations, floor plans, wall details, etc.

In fact, Somerville advertized several styles at three different finish
levels (waferboard, T1-11, and clapboard siding). I'm planning on the
middle level. Without foundation, the mateials, including windows, doors
and roof are going for just over $3K.  If you do the foundation yourself,
you can save there too.   I'l planning to do 'drystack' foundation work
upon recommendation of a friend who built his house.  Of course, this is
all predicated on building code allowing it in Merrimack, NH. My only
need for a fair quantity of concrete will be for the footings and slab.

I've wanted a garage since we moved in 8 years ago...  Next Spring I'll
start work and by mid-June, my wife won't see me much  ;-)


Chris

    RE: .2
    
    What is "drystack"?
    
    Marc H.

re: .2

Drystack is a method of building a concrete block wall quickly without
much more than an ability to lay blocks in a straight line and plumb
while not needing to use mortar to join the blocks together.

You lay in the footings as usual, then lay the blocks down without mortar.
Continue until the wall/foundation is the proper height. When this is all
done, you plaster the facings with a mortar formulated with strands of
fibreglass mixed in.  You trowel this over the surface and let cure.

While I have not read much about this method, my friend tells me that walls
built in this manner are as strong as walls built by a mason in the usual
way.  In some cases, the wall is more resistant to side forces due to the
skimcoat of fiberglass reinforced mortar.

Chris

    Thanks Cris.
    
    Marc H.

Are you serious?  $15,000 for just a basic garage?  That sounds like
an outrageous price to pay.  That is almost what a kitchen would cost
with the plumbing, electrical, etc.

Where is the majority of the cost?  The framing can be done in a day
or so.  The roof would take another couple of days.  The rest of the
finish work would take some time.  If that is what they get for a garage,
then maybe we are all in the wrong business.

Ed..

    Re .7:  The excavation, foundation, and slab are a healthy chunk.
    Today, with limited demand, the construction materials take a
    pretty good bite too.  15k could be a little high, but its in
    the ballpark range requested.
    

    I am in the process of having the garage built for me. The size is
    24 x20.. and the cost is 5480.00. Includes slab, siding, roofing
    and garage door.  I am in Colorado Srpings; So as far as other parts
    of the country I am not sure of cost.
    
    
    
    JEff
    

Without knowning the particulars, $15k is about right.   This would be with
excavation, 6" slab (I know, most contractors do 4") compacted sand for under it,
thickened slab for any posts that might be necessary (need to see engineering)
architectural shingles, two windows, door openers, two steel insulated steel
doors, steps into house if necessary, three outlets, one light, steel entry 
door into house etc...

if you want a better quote, let me know the particulars..

-Rob

    We had a contractor build a 24 x 24 detached garage with two automatic 
    doors, one window and one side door for $7800. We also had to excavate
    into a hill for the back wall so back was half block (8 courses) and
    the sides were partial block. The rest was framed with the trusses for
    the gambriel roof pre made. (looked like a rather small but tall barn).
    
    This is in upstate ny where the footers have to go at least 42". So we
    did lots of digging and poured lots of concrete. 
    
    Looking back on the project I made one fatal mistake. I went cheap on
    the trusses and got just enough truss to support the roof, where had I
    realized how much room there was goint to be in the ceiling of the
    garage, I would have made it an open living/office/something space.
    That would have added about $2k to the project but would have been well
    wotrth it in the long run. The way it is now there are so many cross
    pieces that its only marginally good storage space.
    
    
    I found the guy to do it by going to the local 84 lumber store with the
    intent on buying one of their kits. I found a blueprint there that I
    thought I could make some minor mods to be what I wanted. The guy at 84
    had a bulliten board with about a zillion business cards on it. He
    pointed out 4 contractors that were regular customers and reputable. I
    called them all and had them come out and bid the job.
    
    Good Luck.

    
    I'm not building a new garage, just rebuilding the one we have (I
    should have started from scratch - but oh well). 
    
    I currently have 2  6x8 timbers 11 feet long each playing the roll
    of center beam.   Before I got there, 14' was added to the back of 
    the garage making it a total of 36' long.   The new 14' used rafter
    ties (and is sagging), no second floor/loft.    I want to run a new
    center beam, but cut the 2 columns supporting the 11 foot sections of
    the 6x8 and put one column at 18' (half way point).   I'm replacing
    the roof all the way (last 14' sags, first 22' leaks and has been
    shored up once already).  Would doubled 2x12's be strong enough for
    a 18 foot span - figuring a meduim load on the second floor ?? 
    If 2x12's would be enough..  is it better to use 8 footers x 4 + a
    4 footer or would 3  12 footers be best (less seams the better??) ?
    maybe 4 laminated 2x8's would be even better (for essentially a 6x8
    beam)??
    
    thanks,
    Keith

I need to buy & install a firecode door between my attached garage and house.
Does it matter whether in swings out into the garage or in toward the house?
Do building codes (Merrimack, NH) require a specific direction? (I called
the town building inspector this morning, but he's not in).

Thanks,
- Dave

Well, our "firecode" door swings into the house (I use the quotes because it's
an interior door with some sheet steel (galvanized I think) tacked onto the
garage side of the door ... this solution is apparently OK in my town).

Your best bet is to ask your town's building inspector for what he will accept.

-Chris

I just talked to building inspector and will answer my own question in .11.
Code does not require the door to swing any specific direction, but if it
swings out into garage and there is a step down, there must be a platform
large enough to stand on while opening door (common-sense there).

    
    Just another tid-bit: On a house I wired in Amherst NH, the door to the
    garage was required to be self closing. Not sure if it's just a local
    town code...might be worth asking about seeing as Amherst abuts
    Merrimack.
    
    Paul 

    I live in Merrimack, NH, have an attached garage and my door swings
    into the house and its not self closing.

    RE: .15
    
    The requirement for "self-closing" is relatively new.  It was just
    adopted in my town 4 years ago when I built my house.  Not a big deal,
    it only cost me $30 for the two replacement hinges at the local
    hardware store.
    
    Dan

We will be buying a Massachusetts home soon and one home recommended to us
had the garage converted into family living space.  If we wanted to hire
someone to build a garage for us, how much would it likely cost nowadays?

Would it even be reasonable to consider using a carport instead? (and how
much do they cost?)

    Carol, who has never lived through a New England winter

    Building a garage is not expensive; the floor is probably the worst
    of it.  I would strongly recommend having an attached garage - it's
    a luxury I would not want to be without (now that I have one).
    
    Carports are not popular in New England; they're almost more trouble
    than not having a garage at all (what with wind-driven snow).
    
    Of course you'd need to check that you had the necessary space to
    build a garage with the proper setbacks, etc.  Don't make assumptions
    here; go visit the town's building inspector if you're serious
    about this.
    
    					Steve

    
    Ditto on the garage.  Grossmans has flyers with garage kits.
    This will give you a ball park price for materials.  Now you
    shop around for a contractor.  Get a written quote and pick one.
    Prices may vary.....a lot!  Make sure you get it in writing....
    
    good luck!
    
    JD

I use my garage as a junk repository.  If I kept my car in it, I'd have to
clear the snow off the driveway.  As it is, I keep the car in the driveway
a few feet from the street.

	A ballpark figure for a 2-car garage would be $10-15,000, including
	things like a couple of windows, electricity, etc. That doesn't
	include attaching it to the house, which can vary wildly depending
	on the house style, lot, etc.

	Note that a garage only adds $4-7,000 to the value of a home, so
	they're not a great remodelling investment.

	I personally wouldn't consider a carport. I don't think that they
	add anything to the value of the house in the market, adn to me they
	detract.

	Roy

    My mother recently spent a lot of money to enclose her carport and make
    it into a real garage.  She didn't consider the thing very useful in a
    snowy climate - it was easier to clear off the car out in the driveway.
    I don't know what it cost to enclose the thing and turn it into a real
    garage, though.
    
    It's been years and years since a car bigger than a toy car would fit
    in my garage - guess I am a packrat at heart! - but it makes a good
    storage space for the lawnmower, snow shovels, sacks of fertilizer, and
    miscellaneous junk.
    
    /Charlotte

Our house in Nashua NH had a semi-enclosed carport when we bought it. It
looked amazingly like a garage with a wide entry. I initially set a goal
of buying and installing an overhead door.

Then I found out that my taxes, predicated on a house with carport, would
rise substantially (don't remember the figure) if I installed the door. 

Five years later we sold the house, still doorless.

Art 

This note is a bit old but the title fits.....

I am trying to come up with plans for a "simple" car port.  I would like it to
have a shed roof (front to back slop) of 1/12 (2" rise per 12" run).

My concerns are on the load the roof will need to handle and what I can get
away with in terms of structural members.

I want it to be 30' wide (3 10' bays), at least 8' high in the front, and about
16->18' deep.

If, in the below drawing the front of the roof sits on 3 pieces of 2x10 nailed
together and sitting on top of four 4x6 posts, this will give me the support I
need for the front and back beams.

Its the roof load that I am trying to figure out.  The few books I have on the
span of lumber are for flooring loads and I don't think a roof needs to be as
ridgid as something that is designed to handle foot traffic etc..  There will
most likly be standard shingles over 1/2 plywood on the roof with no load 
under the roof.

What would I need for the roof rafters in order to span about 15 feet (with a
foot or so of overhang on the front) of a roof load (without supports in the
middle).  I THINK that 2x6's at 16" OC will be enough but that is just 'they
way I feel' and I have no chart in a construction book to back that up.  This
is for New Hampshire so it will need to handle a little snow also.

Thanks,
Brian J.

A few quick VT drawings below the formfeed:

			Front:

		30' wide, at least 8' high (under upper beam)
   XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX      << 2x10's
   x                x                 x              x
   x                x                 x              x    
   x                x                 x              x
   x                x                 x              x
   x     10'        x     10'         x     10'      x
   x                x                 x              x
   x                x                 x              x

		Side: 

      X     ^        I can't get the VT to draw the right slop here!          
      x     |
      x     | 3' rise                    
      x     |                      X
      x                            x
      x                            x
      x                            x
      x                            x
      x                            x
 |  <------  18' deep   ---------> |
   ^
  Overhang on the front

The answer depends greatly on the snow load where you are.  Where are you?
There should be local building codes that tell what your town requires for
roofs.

Also, I think the slope is too shallow for shingles.  They'll probably leak.

-Mike

>>The answer depends greatly on the snow load where you are.  Where are you?

Merrimack, NH.

>>There should be local building codes that tell what your town requires for
>>roofs.

The town would defer to a national code, if one existed, for the requirements.

>>Also, I think the slope is too shallow for shingles.  They'll probably leak.

This is going to be open on all four sides so water coming through the shingles
(if it happened) would not be noticed.

bjm

>>Also, I think the slope is too shallow for shingles.  They'll probably leak.
>
>This is going to be open on all four sides so water coming through the shingles
>(if it happened) would not be noticed.

	The roof below the shingles will notice, when it starts to rot from
	being damp...

	Roy

    
    How about a truss system with Alu. Roofing???  Might be
    cheeper than 2x10x16/plywood/shingles.....ect?
    
    JD

>>    How about a truss system with Alu. Roofing???  Might be
>>    cheeper than 2x10x16/plywood/shingles.....ect?

I had thought about the plastic "wave" style stuff to put on the roof but had
not thought about alu. roofing.  Hmm how much noise will it make??

Building the trusses seems to be a rather big expense also.  If I go
front-back, with a gable style roof I should be able to use 2x6's and build a
standard roof.  The only thing the trusses might gain me is if I wanted to
span 30' (go side to side) - and then I would need 17 trusses 
(to get 16' with 16 OC).  A good deal of wood goes into a 2x4 truss and I'd
have to check to see if a 2x4 truss system could span the 30'.

Right now I'm leaning tword a front-back gable style roof sitting on top of 4x6
lumber (the "sill" or header) which will sit on 4x6 posts (on top of 4' deep
sono-tubes)

I like the idea of the shed roof but the lumber to span the 13 or so feet may
be too much (along with making it very high in the front if I want to be able
to walk under the roof at the back side (and I'm 6'4").

bjm

    
    A standard 5/12 , 30' truss cost me $70.  Its 2x4 construction.  I
    used 1/2plywood with clips.  Trusses are 2' on Ct.  roofed it. 
    No problems!!
    
    NOISE...not to bad unless your living under it...:)
    
    JD

	I'm tired of looking at my very ugly carport.  I don't mind the 
    galvanized roof as I don't have to look at it, but the underside of it is 
    also metal and the metal beams are rusting and getting ugly.   There 
    doesn't seem to be a structural problem, the rust is surface and brushes 
    off, but it will be a bear of a job cleaning it without sandblasting, etc.
    My neighbor tells me that's its been standing for 30 years so far.

	The structure is as follows:

						Galvanized roof
	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	------		------		------		------
	|    |		|    |		|    |		|    |  U-beams
	_    _		_    _		_    _		_    _	24" on center

	total size = 24' long by 12 feet wide on a 30 degree slope.
	Any suggestions on a covering for the bottom to make it more attractive?


						Chris

    
    strapping and some pine boards?????
    
    JD

    I'm getting a carport built.  So far I have two contractors who
    described what they would build.  One said he'd use pressure-treated
    lumber for the posts; the other said he would wrap the posts in pine. 
    Is there any significant difference between these two approaches?

    
      I have a 1 car garage that needs to be torn down and trucked away. 
      I have called a waste disposal company and a transfer station 
      concerning the disposal of the materials.  They currently charge
      approximately $70.-/ton to dispose of the material in which you
      transport to their site.  I estimate that the weight of the garage
      debris not to exceed 2 tons,  1 or 2 dump truck loads.  
    
      What I'm looking for is recommendations in the Fitchburg/Leominster
      area to tear down the garage and truck it to the disposal site.  The
      garage is located in Fitchburg, as is the waste disposal company.  I
      suspect someone with a backhoe and dump truck could do the job in
      a couple hours.  Since this is a small job, I suspect that most
      contractors in the area wouldn't be interested.  I'm looking for the
      small, independent guy to do the job.  If you know of someone that
      might be interested or has done work for you in the past, I'd
      appreciate the info.
    
    
      thanks,
      ron 

    	Maybe someone else will understand this, but I have no idea what
    the builder meant by "wrap the posts in pine". Untreated pine will rot
    about as easily as most other common untreated woods, except for cedar 
    and redwood. Perhaps you or he meant something else ?
    
    	Ray

    He probably meant steel posts with the pine boards to make it look
    better.
    	Dave.

    re:13
    
    	That would make much more sense ;-)
    
    	Ray

    Well, he mentioned 4x4s for the posts.  What he might have meant is the
    pine trim around the roof.  But I think he meant the posts, and the
    idea was to achieve a more attractive finish.  (It would probably not
    be _untreated_ pine, then....)

    
    I see no major problems with the "wrap", only if his footings
    extend above ground about a foot in order to keep ground water
    away from the wood.  I'd also add a PT board at the base as to 
    keep moisture off the untreated wood.  But PT would be a better
    choise if your at ground level.
    
    JD

You might want to try Sullivan Disposal (I'm not sure the exact name he uses) 
but the name is Mark Sullivan and he lives in Fitchburg.  He has his own trash 
pick-up service, but he also does construction pick-ups as well (my husband uses
him).  

    re .9, .10
    
    I've considered both boards and sheet material.  I'm concerned about
    the 24" on center supports.  Can sheet material (or boards) hang
    without drooping on 24" centers?  Or do I really need to add additional
    supports to make it 12" on center?
    
    I'm also wondering about the visual appeal of 9 sheets of 4X8 vs.
    individual boards.
    
    						Chris

    
    i'd say the 4x8 sheets would tend to droop a bit at 24".  Minus
    the fact that they might be a bit difficult to put up unless you
    have a few sets of hands...
    
    The boards should hand fine...  I've gone to a sawmill and picked up
    some "rejects or damaged stock" for peanuts and been able to do some
    projects at relitivly low costs.  Maybe even put the boards up at
    a 45' angle or make a pattern??... Just a thought....
    
    JD

    Why not advertise it FREE for salvage in a shopper paper (Thrifty
    Nickel?). You should of course write a simple contract/agreement to
    protect yourself legally.
    
    Regards
    Jayna

    
    The reason that it is being torn down is that the roof is starting to
    sag and it is just basically not structurally sound.  I doubt that 
    anyone would want it.  
    
    ron 

    Does anyone here have any experience with using a temporary garage in
    New England?  I want to add a garage to my house, but may not be able
    to do it before this winter.  However, I'd really like to not have to
    dig out the cars this year.

    I've seen an ad in a couple of magazines for a temporary garage, but it
    looks like it's from the same company that put out the "boat and motor
    for $39.95" that turns out to be an inflatable raft with a rubber band
    powered motor, or something equally valuable.  Is there a reputable
    company putting out a temporary garage that's not too expensive and
    could be disassembled and resold after one winter?

    Thanks for any help.

    ---Phil

    (cross-posted in carbuffs)

I've seen one or two places near my home that appear to have what one would
call a temporary garage.  Sort of Quonset hut like but basically a metal 
frame with a skin of some fairly heavy looking plastic.  No idea how
stable or weather worthy they are though.

PeterT

There's an outfit called Cover-It out of Connecticut (Hartford?) which
manufactures and sells the quonset style shelters. From what I've seen
of them, they're pretty durable and the costs aren't unreasonable
(under $700 for a one-car). Assembly time is supposed to be a matter
of hours. There's an outfit in Nashua (one of the party places, but
I forget which one), that is an authorized dealer.

-Jack

    Thanks for the info on Cover-It, I'll try to track them down.

    ---Phil

    A friend of mine is looking into using one of those "Cover-It" garages
    for his boat. Does anyone have one of these things? Is it reasonably
    durable? 
    
    	Steve.

    
    I'm considering adding a 24x24 attached garage to my house. 
    I'm woundering what I should expect to spend if I have the 
    foundation done and build myself, or for a complete turn key
    project if I have a contractor do it. 
    
    thanks
    

We added a 12'x27' bay on the end of our existing garage 2 years ago.  The
foundation was poured by a contractor, but we did all the rest of the work
ourselves.  I used 2x6's for the walls and prefab'd trusses.  The total cost
was around $2500, but that did not include and doors since we had an extra
one from one bay we closed in on the original garage.

Initial estimates to have it built by a contractor ran from $8000 up.

Dave

    
    lumber prices have climbed dramatically even in the last year.  I'm now
    paying 20-30% more for certain types of material (like eastern white
    primed shingles).  Speaking of which, exterior material (vinyl, wood,
    brick, stone, ...) will greatly effect the cost of the addition.
    
    Bud
    

    
    I'm considering adding a 24x24 attached garage to my house. 
    I'm woundering what I should expect to spend if I have the 
    foundation done and build myself, or for a complete turn key
    project if I have a contractor do it. 
    
I did a 22 x 22 mostly myself a few years back for a little
over 7 grand, total.  All excavation and concrete work was
farmed out, as was the door installation - everything else I
did myself.  I could have reduced the cost about a grand by
simplifying trim (T11 instead of cedar clapboards, no moldings).

If you're attached, though, you'll want to copy the existing
house detailing (as I did mine from my old house) and you'll
have to use 5/8" firewall sheetrock on the entire interior,
where I could leave it exposed wood.  Your excavation and
foundation details also may vary, due to the attachment and
your site.  I used full footings below 4' walls (minimum) and
have a poured floor, with apron, and no interior posts or divisions.

Expect completed quotes from contractors in the $20,000 range and
up.  You may find some as low as $15k if you're lucky.    

    
    minor correction on .-1
    
    The 5/8" firecode sheetrock is only necessary where the garage meets
    the house.  It's a firewall so that the time it takes for a fire in the
    garage to get to the house is slowed.  (Hopefully long enough for the
    fire department to get there.)  It is not necessary to do the entire
    interior.
    
    I've seen some guys build the garage near the house.  Get it inspected,
    and then attach it to get around this.  Where is the most likely place
    for a fire to start??  That $100 or so of protection is a small price
    for a lot of protection.

    RE: .-1
    
    It is also important to note that the firewall must go up to the roof
    line.  In other words, the firewall needs to be a complete barrier
    between the garage and the house.  An alternative method (sometimes
    easier), is to enclose the garage "box" which would include the common
    wall with the house and the ceiling.  This is usually done when it is
    not feasible to place the sheetrock up to the roof.
    
    Dan

    I have a 22 x 24 garage with a 10 x 22 storage area behind it (all
    those lawn goodies) that I am currently in the process of building. 
    I subcontracted the foundation, framing, floors and roofing.  It is 
    attached to the house by a 14 x 14 room that will be a mud room,
    laundry room and half bath.  There is a 16 x 22 room above the garage
    as well.  I am into it for about 20 K at this point and I figure another 
    5K or better to get it to a point of near completion.  The bulk of the
    work left to do I will be doing myself.  I am going to pay someone to
    put the two overhead doors on for me.
    
    If I had just done the garage and not attached it to the house I think
    I could have done the entire thing for 15K.
    
    Mark
      
    
    If you want more details on costs, materials etc.  Drop me a line.  You
    can just spend and spend and spend if you want!