Conference 7.286::home_work

    I don't know if this is the best place to put this, but I just wanted
    to spread the word around.  With the news that OPEC is cutting back
    production, and prices are likely to increase soon, I decided that's
    it's time to fill my oil tank.
    
    --> The companies and prices indicated below are for the Fitchburg/
        Leominster (MA) area.  Prices in other areas may be substantially
    	different.
    
    My in-laws ordered oil yesterday from our old standby, Cleghorn
    Oil Co., and they were quoted a price of .38/gal, with a quantity
    discount for >1200 gals.  I called Cleghorn this morning, and was
    told the price was .44/gal - NO DISCOUNTS.  (I re-checked with my
    in-laws, they did pay .38, I called Cleghorn back they said "All
    we can tell you is that the price today is .44).  This is, in effect,
    a one-day increase of 6 cents a gallon on the same oil they sold
    yesterday!  Just because they know people are going to start buying
    oil now.
    
    I shopped around a little bit, and found that Port Oil Co., which
    has offices all around eastern Mass (with variable prices) and their
    office in Leominster is still selling oil at .38/gallon with the
    quantity discount (I ordered 2000 gals; not sure where the discounts
    cut in, but I know they offer a penny/gal off at certain points,
    e.g., 200 gals, 400, etc.)
    
    Anyway, the point of all this is that oil prices are likely to rise
    FAST!  If you need oil for the winter, especially if you've got
    a large tank like mine, NOW is the time to buy!
    
    -db
    
    
    

    I have a 275 gallon oil tank.  What's the best way to store up an
    oil reserve?  Buy another tank and connect them together?  or buy
    55 gallon barrels?
    
    -al

    I have had three houses and three new boilers in the last 6 years.
    I would strongly recommend a Weil-Maclean boiler since it is a 
    wet-based cast iron boiler.  From what i have seen, most cheaper
    boilers become rust buckets within years especially in a hard
    water area.  If you want to consider another brand, Burnham would
    be my recommendation.  It is not a cast iron boiler but has a good
    reputation.  The W-M will cost you significantly more but it is
    a lot cheaper to install it once and save on the oil for years to
    come.  (NOTE: one of the boilers that I had to replace was a six
    year old contractor's special which had an efficiency of 58% -
    apparently the tubes in cheap boilers rot out quickly.)

    Regarding somebody to do the job:
    I've dealt with Carlisle Fuel Co. in Boylston for the past four
    years, and found them to be extremely honest and straightforward.
    Very conservative; they tend to favor systems with proven records.
    
    Dunn Oil Co. in Maynard also has a pretty good reputation.  Dick
    Dunn likes Riello (sp?) boilers.  They are imported from Italy and
    are supposed to be extremely efficient.  Might be worth investigating.
    
    Steve
    

One thing to be careful about if you want to get into an underground oil tank
is the whole environmental issue of what happens if there's a spill.  Beleive it
or not, the cost of cleaning up a spill could EASILY run in excess of $100,000!
Not, I didn't put in too many zeros...

Many towns are getting extremely wary about underground tanks leaking and towns
are considering ordering them drained and filled with sand to prevent further 
use.

After the experience a friend of mine had with his above ground tank (see 
earlier note), I for one would never put one of those suckers under my property.

-mark

    I'm not interested in installing an underground tank, but the person
    in note #237 is getting rid of an old 275 gallon oil tank.  How
    could I connect this tank into the oil supply line or to the other
    existing 275 gallon tank?
    
    -al

 I work part time for a fuel oil dealer and run into multiple 
275 gal tank installations all the time. To connect the outlets
together is easy. All you need is some more copper tubing,
some flare fittings, and a T. As long as the both tanks have a
filter and a shuttoff each before the T you are fine. The tanks
will empty at the same rate and if they are both at the same level
will have the same amount of fuel in each. If you have a problem with
one or you choose to hold one in reserve you just shut the valve off.
The other thing is how to fill them. Unless the oil man is going
to drag the hose into the cellar every time, you need a seperate fill
pipe for each tank. The vent pipes can be connected together. The other
thing to remember is gettting a flammable liquids storage permit for the
other tank. Thats from the fire department in Mass. 

Bill

    
    	To add to the reserves of available FREE oil tanks, I would
    	like to throw mine into the ring.  It is in Lowell, MA, 
    	has at least 1/4 tank, and maybe even up to 100 gal in it
    	(the gague does not work properly.)  It is all yours for the
    	taking (if YOU haul it away, of course.)
    
    	Joe Oppelt
    	FUTURE::OPPELT

    I looked thru the notes with keyworks of BASEMENT, HEATING, and
    PLUMBING and couldn't find anything on this so here goes....
    I want to finish the basement, got all the info I need on sub-floors,
    insulation, etc, but as far as heating it, I'm still "out in the
    cold" (boo!)
    IDEALLY, I would like to add an "add-on" coal or wood stove to the
    existing FHW oil system, adding a 3rd zone for the "dump" zone as
    well as heating the basement.
    When we had the house built, I wanted a combo unit. The plumber
    would only use HS Tarms, they're very good, and very expensive so
    we decided to wait till we had something in mind for the basement.
    What I'm looking for is people who have done the following things:

    Attached an add-on wood/coal system to a FHW system with or 
    without a dump zone.
    Added a zone in the basement, perferably after the above.
    Had experience with HS Tarms equipment.
    
    Thanks,
    John
    
    

    re .1
    Is the use of a "dump zone" required?
    I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I gather, it's where
    the excess heat generated from the stove goes when there is no call
    for it from any other zone (ie, the thermostats are down but the
    stove is still running)
    Was the installation extensive and/or expensive?  Both the
    fireplate/stove hookup as well as the plumbing required to add
    another zone. 
    Could you expand on the domestic hot water issue?
    If I'm going to go this route, I would like my system to supply
    as much DHW as needed.
    
    Thanks
    John
    

>    Is the use of a "dump zone" required?

    Not in my experience.  The hottest the boiler water ever got up
    to was around 220, which is no problem at 15 lbs of pressure.  It's
    protected by a pressure relief valve if it got so hot that the pressure
    built up beyond 30 lbs, which would be very unlikely.  Obviously,
    if it got so warm out that your thermostat(s) didn't call for heat,
    you wouldn't keep running the stove.
    
>    Was the installation extensive and/or expensive?

    It cost me around $500 for everything, but that was when everybody
    was buying woodstoves & accessories and they commanded premium prices.
    The year after I put mine in, they started selling the Fireplate
    heat exchanger seperately for around $250 (I bought a kit with the
    Fireplate, circulator, valves, pipe, etc.)  I did it myself and
    it really wasn't very difficult - the toughest part is finding a
    way to cut and thread iron pipe at the site.  A relative with a
    pipe threader comes in handy.  You can have it cut and threaded
    at the store, but you'd have to create accurate measurements for
    the whole layout first.
    
>    Could you expand on the domestic hot water issue?
    
    I have a tankless hot water heater, which is nothing more than a
    coil inside the boiler.  Since the boiler water constantly circulates
    through the fireplate, picking up heat from the stove, the domestic
    hot water is effectively heated by the stove.
    
    The domestic water is one of the major benefits to this system.
    It prevents a lot of on/off cycling that the burner would normally
    do just to keep up with intermittant hot water demands.

>    If I'm going to go this route, I would like my system to supply
>    as much DHW as needed.

    It will provide as much heat as it's capable of providing.  For
    high demand (a washing machine full of hot water) the oil burner
    will probably kick in.  This system is designed to reduce oil
    consumption, not eliminate it.
    
    BTW, the references to oil heat are out of habit.  A gas burner
    would behave the same way.
    

    Anyone out there replaced a oil-fired FHW furnace recently? What
    is a reasonable price to pay for a new furnace? What kinds are the
    best? Our furnace (~10 yrs old) has finally bit the dust. We need
    one that will handle 2-3 zones.
    
    	Thanks,
    	   Stan

    A nit: a "furnace" is hot air; a "boiler" is hot water or steam.
    
    10 years seems like a pretty short lifespan.  What's wrong?  If
    it's just the burner, you can replace that with a really good one
    for about $400.  If you really do need to replace the whole boiler,
    you're probably talking $2,000-$3000, wild guess.
    Weil-Mclean is a good brand of boiler, but I'm not really up on 
    the latest stuff.
    Carlin and Becket burners are good.
    Riello (sp?) from Italy is supposed to have really good boilers
    and burners, but I don't have any personal experience or know anybody
    who has one.
    

    
    
    
    	I just recently had my oil forced hot air system replaced by
    Fitchburg Heating Company. They were very professional about the
    whole ordeal. The furnace I purchased is the largest single stage
    you can buy, I think 130,000 BTU's. They replaced my air exchange
    unit also, or whatever they call that box. The total price was
    $1800 and that included...
    
    
    	Magic cheif furnace

       	installation

       	disposal of old furnace (that was $100)

       	install fire proof sheetrock above furnace (state code now)

       	move furnace shutoff switch from ceilar stairs to upstairs,
    		this is also state code now. If a fire starts down
    		stairs you don't want to open the door to shut the
    		furnace off.

    
    	I had a 30 year old KALAMAZU furnace which worked ok but I ran
    into some extra money and bit the bullet. The new furnace really
    cranks compared to the old one. I don't know if uses less oil than
    the old one but I have peace of mind now.
    
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I'm in this market right now also.
    
    
    Weil-mclean is a very good boiler, This is the one that my father
    has in his house.  Ours is a Hydrotherm, which looks to be pretty
    well built.
    
    Unfortunately, the previous owner of our house never had the boiler
    cleaned and it got plugged up.  The result is that the base is pretty
    much destroyed and something must be done.  I'm having the Hydrotherm
    rep come over next week to tell me if it is repairable, and if so
    how much it will cost.
    
    If I have to replace the boiler, I've been told that one the size
    I need will be about $800.00 plus installation.  (plus burner if
    you can only use oil, fortunately, I have gas and if I have to replace
    the oil burner system is out the door)
    
    
    Also, depending on how big your house is, how long you plan on staying
    there and how much your fuel bills are, you could consider getting
    a pulse combustion unit.  They're about 2 times the price of a normal
    boiler, but are "at least 30% more efficient", require lots less
    space, and no chimney (all they produce is a little water)
    
    
    We've got the furnace man coming over next week, I'll post a summary
    here after he comes.
    
    
    -bill

    
    	Sorry about .2 
    
    	I thought it was froced hot air.
    	
    
    		-Steve-
    

    I'm in the middle of replacing an oil fired steam boiler with a
    gas FHW system and I have a oil burner that I would like to get rid
    of. It seems to be fairly new and in reasonable shape, but I don't
    know a lot about oil burners.
      
    I'll sell it cheap if anyone is interested.  Also, I have about
    50 gallons of oil and a tank I will eventually need to get rid of.
    Anybody interested?
    
    Joe

I basically agree with .1

We recently replaced our oil-steam system for an oil-FHW system and are 
very satisfied.  Our boiler Weil-Mclean, which appears to be very high 
quality and has a 20-year guarantee.  Burnham apparently also makes a 
good one. We already had a Carlin burner, which is good.

As far as cost is concerned:  We have a cape, and the plumber removed
the entire basement full of 2" pipes and a 40-year old American Standard
boiler and all the radiators, put in a 3-zone (3-circulator) system,
with Weil-Mclean baseboards, all copper tubing, both first and second
floors (riser in wall and closet with one upstairs loop) and the entire
job cost $4000 (not including the electrician and thermostats). We did
use the "old" Carlin burner.  I would guess the the boiler itself is 
not much more than a grand, possibly $1500.  I never asked because the 
overall cost was so reasonable.

Do not skimp on the burner or the boiler.  The burner determines how many
$$$s go up the flue, while the boiler design determines how often that
burner has to go on (e.g., are you heating the basement unnecessarily).

Hope this helps, 

Alex

    If you're into burning wood or coal, in addition to oil, HS Tarm
    makes excellent boilers for those applications. Big bucks tho.
    Their top-of-the-line multi-fuel unit allow burning wood or coal,
    (seperate fireboxes) and if you run out, the oil system kicks
    in. You get all the advantages of wood and coal, plus having
    it heat evenly like FHW does. They also make 'add-on' units that
    can work in conjunction with oil fired FHW systems.

    John

    Top of the line boilers:    Weil McLain
                                H.B. Smith
                                American Burnam  (not necessarily in that order)

    I had a system installed in May '86. The bolier was a Weil McLain
    model P366 HEW. I believe it was a single step up from their smallest
    boiler. It was fitted with a becket burner. Cost of boiler alone...
    I can't say for sure. It was installed as a complete system along
    with a 1000 gal. in ground oil tank.
    
    Speaking of which.....I filled up with 980 gals. on Memorial Day
    weekend in 1986 (@ $.545 or $534.). I just filled up earlier this
    week for 944 gals. @ $.625 or $590.
    
    USEAGE: Thats 1 Full Winter and a few months of just using the oil for
    domestic hot water...or 15 months. I had roughly 50 gals left in
    the tank when I filled up so I figured my useage was ~930 gals
    at $.545 gal over the 15 months or $507.00. Of course I realize
    that oil prices may very well soar^ in the future but I still thought
    $507.00 (after the initial investment) was pretty cheap for heat
    and hot water for the 15 month period.
    
    Any comments? The oil left in my tank don't lie...What have you
    folks spent to heat the house for a year?
    
    MArk    

    C. K. SMith is
    
    a. adding a 27' loop for a new family room we're having built,
    b. splitting our whole system into two zones with zone valves, and
    c. putting in a new Weil-McLane (sp?) plant (everything).
    
    Total cost including everything (including removal and disposal
    of the old stuff) is $3,900.
    
    Pete

    BTW, C. K. Smith replaced a burner a few years ago (2) with a Reillo
    "burner in a box" and have since ripped it out.  Seems repair parts
    have dried up and they mentioned either that they won't touch Riello
    or Riello is no more - don't remember which.  I'd go with Beckett.

    If you live in Mass and are going to do ANY home "Energy Improvements"
    it would be wise to talk to someone in DCU about a 0% intrest loan.
    
    That's right no intrest!  I just had my boiler and hot water tank
    replaced and took the loan out for 5 years.  I will save more each
    month than the payments will be and I have a new boiler too!
    
    I got the Weil McKlain (sp) with a Beckett burner.  I haven't needed
    it yet but can't wait to see how much I save this winter.
    
    jc

Re .2 & .3...  Having to replace my oil line (see note 267.16)
started me thinking about getting an underground tank, so I started
asking around. In Mass, at least, the game is changing. There are
EPA regs regarding underground fuel storage tanks that may or may
not apply to domestic oil tanks, depending on whom you ask. First
off, the tank now costs more. I was quoted $1000 for a 1000 gal
tank; the price increase is due to the fact that special corrosion
resistant tanks are now required. And you have to get it pressure
tested periodically. From the testing outfit (you know where they're
coming from) I'm told testing is required at 5 years, 10, 13, 15...
and then every year after age 20. They quoted me a $600 charge for
the test. I'm still waiting to hear from the fire chief about what
he thinks the local regs are.

Kind of takes the discount out of buying oil in bulk.

    RE: .8
    
    Where do you manage to get heating oil for $.625/gal?  Or is it
    cheaper per gallon since you buy in bulk?
    
    -al

>    Where do you manage to get heating oil for $.625/gal?  Or is it
>    cheaper per gallon since you buy in bulk?
 

I just had 200 gallons delivered yesterday at .64/gallon.

Fitchburg - Cleghorn Oil

Chuck

    
    
    	re .9
    
    	If you can, for the little extra, go with separate circulators
    	on each zone instead of the zone valves.  Zone valves are very
    	flaky and burn out quickly, the circulators are more efficient
    	and last much longer.
    
    	Tony/

Talked to the fire chief (this is Hudson, MA). He says there's nothing
definite required just now, but it is very likely that testing will be
required in the near future. He didn't give me the same detailed
testing schedule the testing lab did, but he did concur that a test
was necessary at 17 years of age, and every year after 20. Given the
cost of the test, it looks like underground tanks in effect need to be
replaced every 20 years. I think I stay with the standard indoor tank.

    I had 2 new heating systems put in a 2-family 6 years ago. One was
    an H.B.Smith with a Carlin burner, the other was a Weil-Mclain with
    a Beckett burner. For some reason the burner men (different ones
    over 5 years) couldn't seem to get the Carlin adjusted right, it
    always carboned up and would have to be cleaned twice a year. One
    service man told me that the sytem was too airtight (trying for
    efficency) and was an inherrent drawback to this system. I'd go
    for the Weil-Mclain/Beckett sytem from my experience. 
    
                                                  Wayne
    

    Re: .15
    I got a new Carlin burner about 3 years ago, and have had no problems
    with it at all, once I fixed it...the burner guy had trouble adjusting
    mine right too.  I've got the Carlin "Miser" burner, which has a
    little flap that shuts to cut off the airflow when the burner isn't
    running.  The Cd cell in the burner that senses a flame, and shuts
    things down if there isn't one, was interfering with that little
    flap so even though the burner guy cranked the air adjustment wide
    open it was still barely enough.  Next fall, just before he came
    for the annual cleaning, I fiddled with the Cd cell and shaved enough
    off so the air flap would clear it.  No problem after that.  It
    has worked very well.

    
    Separate circulators would be a better system, however, there is
    really nothing wrong with going with zone valves.  It is important,
    as I've been told, that the heat anticipator in the room thermostats
    be set correctly to match the zone valve rating.  If this is not
    done correctly, then the will probably burn out.
    
    I've been in my hose 7 years with zone valves and never had a problem
    with them. I just added a third zone valve for a 16X22 addition.
    Material cost for this loop = approx  $500.
    
    I've had problems with my boiler though. Burnam America brand.
    The boiler used was aluminum and rotted out after less than
    5 years. The boiler was installed by the builder and I purchased
    it new. In my neighborhood 5 of these units were installed new
    at the time of construction.  
    
    Turns out that there was a recall on these particular biolers
    and Burnham America negotiated with the Atty Genrl's office
    to replace all of the units. We all got new boilers for 0,
    but we had to pay for installation, $200 at the time. I had my 
    own oil man intall it. This boiler is a new design. Still
    aluminum, though, and comes with a 20 year guarantee against
    rotting out.
    
    A good company will back their products.
    

    Zone valves work quite well. I split the loop in my house into three
    loops and put a zone valve/thermostat in for each loop. That was
    8 years ago and there still doing great.
    
    Bob...
    

    I am faced with the same replacement problem on the 30 year old
    American Standard boiler in my home. The quotes I have received
    from local contractors are:
    	- Blueray model CWL110 with my choice of Beckett or Reillo burner
    	  installed at $2778.
    	- Ultimate Engineering Corp model PFO-5T with Beckett burner
    	  for $2914.
    Both quotes include no modification to my existing 3-zone, 1-circulator
    heating loops. So far I have made no decision.
    
    Herb
        

Wow... almost $3K to put in a new boiler. Question is, why? Do you
need back the couple of square feet? I have a 30 year old monster
made by National U.S. Radiator, with a Carling 100CRD flame retention
burner installed about 12 years ago. Unless my maintenance folks are
handing me a line, I see no reason to replace it. After the spring
tune-up, it routinely checks out at 81-83% efficiency. About its only
shortcoming is because of its size, it has to be kept at operating
temperature even when you're not calling for heat, because it takes a
good half hour to get it fully heated from cold. (And I don't care
about this because I have a tankless water heater on it anyway.)

I don't know how the American Standard compares, but the most
important factor in heating efficiency is the burner. Second after
that is the insulation on the boiler, so you don't do too good a job
of heating your basement or furnace room. You might get a reading on
the stack temperature after it's been cleaned. A good boiler design
should have a stack temp of about 300. If it's much more than that,
it may be that the boiler is indeed not very effective at extracting
heat. If you have an old burner, by all means get it replaced with a
Carling or Beckett. That'll cost you a few hundred bucks. But unless
the boiler itself has real problems, I see no reason to replace it.

BTW, a belated reply to the note about H.S. Tarm boilers...

Last summer I researched the whole wood fired boiler business in
great detail, and finally decided against it. I spent a lot of time
going over product literature, including Tarm and others, and spent a
good deal of time talking to the folks at Dunn Energy Center in
Maynard.

Their chief heating wizard (Rich, I think - lost his card) thinks the
Tarm and others like it are creosote factories. Wood fired boilers
make for a really dicey control problem. If a regular wood stove gets
a little hot, so what, you open a window or something. In a boiler,
you better get the heat away from it or you're in big trouble. As a
result, boilers without any heat storage are usually run damped way
down, which of course gives you a pile of creosote.

Rich likes the unit made by Dumont. It has an unusual downdraft furnace
coupled to a 1000+ gallon water tank. The idea is you put in a load of
wood, burn it balls out (i.e., hot and clean) and heat up the tank.
You can now draw heat from the tank for the next 12-24 hours, depending
on the weather. One of the nice aspects of this rig is you can run
a load of wood in the evening, and have the house nice and warm in the
morning so you don't freeze your feet off getting out of bed.

Now the downside: The Dumont is big and expensive. Dunn quoted me
about $10K installed. The tank is a mother - 5 feet diameter by 9
feet long - takes up a good size room by itself. (And you really want
to have the tank indoors so the heat leaking from it doesn't just
melt the snow outside.) With the operating and carrying costs, it
just doesn't wash. I use about 1000 gallons of oil a year. That's
equivalent to about 6 cords of wood. That's a *lot* of wood to haul
around (never mind buy). Finally, the capital cost of the rig, at a
10% finance rate, is $1000 per year (assuming a long lifetime). Even
if the wood were free, I'd barely be breaking even.

The Tarms aren't cheap either. There's a whole line, from small
add-on boilers to big combo units. Prices range from $2500 to over
$4000, not including installation. I concluded it just wasn't worth
it. I'm going to put in a conventional wood stove downstairs to
dabble with wood burning (I get a certain amount of free wood off my
property), but that's it.

    
    	I haven't seen this question in any note so here goes
    
    		I have a new house with an oil FHW system
    it's a Burnham furnace with a becket burner and Honeywell controls.
    my question is how do i know what to set the hi and low limits at
    and what to set the diferential at ? 
    	Im sure i'll have varied responses but i'd like to here from
    everyone anyway that way i'll have something to go by.
    
    			thanks paul

    I'm not sure about oil FHW, but I have a gas FHW system and here's
    what I do when setting the limit switches:
    
    High limit:	I usually set this around 160 degrees or so.  You don't
    		want to set this too high as it can represent an
    		unnecessary load to keep the water heated.  (Just like
    		a water heater.)
    
    Low Limit:	I have mine set at 120 so as to keep the warm water
    		circulating as long as possible.
    
    As for the differential, I haven't really spent the time to figure
    exactly what it is doing, so I left it at the setting the furnace
    guy set when he came out to "tune it up" a while back.  BTW, the
    limit settings were set as a result of talking to the guy during
    the "tune up" as well as looking at the schematic for the boiler
    control system.
    
    - Mark

    I have an oil system.......new.....seems to me in the winter we
    set the high temp at around 200-210......although Im not absolutely
    sure......check your dishwater.....somewhere it will say that the
    top temp must be X.....so your high setting needs to be at least
    that recommended temp
    
    The low is set 20 degrees lower than the high.....if its set lower
    than that, when the thermostat calls for heat you wont get any....
    I learned THAT thru experience...
    
    Oh yes....and in the summer months we usually lower the high setting
    to around 170-180
    
    Rick

    
    
    	Re .-1
    
    	Dishwashers need to be 120F.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    RE: .2,.3
    
    Dishwasher temperatures vary slightly.  Some use 120f, some 140f,
    some you can select the temperature, some have a temperature boost
    built in, some CAN'T use 120f.  I just happened to have done some
    dishwasher research earlier this week.
    
    FWIW
    
    Phil

    *&^%#$ 
    re:.0  > You have a furnace?? You mean you have a BOILER
             right?
    In any case, your low limit setting is slightly different
    for a system with a tankless vs. a boiler w/o a tankless. Please
    specify. 

    
    re: .5  dont bother.
    

    We just had a new boiler installed, and the limit settings are 140
    (low setting) and 160 (high setting), and the differential is set
    to 20 (160 - 140 = 20). 
    
    		---Stan

    re: .0 & .6...so you're telling us they're building new houses
                  with FURNACES that use oil to heat the house by
                  boiling the water. This we'd like to see.
     

re Note 1554.8 by AMULET::YELINEK:

>     re: .0 & .6...so you're telling us they're building new houses
>                   with FURNACES that use oil to heat the house by
>                   boiling the water. This we'd like to see.

I've seen "boiler/furnaces" heated by gas, in which water is heated and then
pumped through a heat exchanger to heat the FHA.  Why not oil?

Bob

Yes, if you want one, you can buy a steam heat system. Personal
preference would say this is not a good idea, but then again
who am I to say. Most steam boilers I have seen are replacement
units but I have heard of a few cases where they have been
sold into new installations. 

Bill (FORMER part time oil co. employee)

  > I've seen "boiler/furnaces" heated by gas, in which water is heated and then
  > pumped through a heat exchanger to heat the FHA.  Why not oil?

    Oil ins't the question here, its BOILER>>FHW & FURNACE>>FHA.
    
      So what you're saying is, gas is used as a fuel to boil the water
    which is circulated through a coil (heat exchanger) where a fan
    blows across it, then through ducts in the home. And we call this 
    'Forced Hot Air'.- This does not seem to be very efficient.
      
      I'm not aware of such a system, (boiler/furnace) and am certainly not
    an authority on the subject of heating systems (outside of researching 
    and chosing a FHW by oil system for my home.)
    
      But in simple engineering terms; everywhere there exists 'a transfer'
    of energy, there also is 'a loss'. What manufacturers do you know of
    that market such a system? 
        
      I've always thought of a FHW (Forced Hot Water) system as one
    that incorporates (1) a boiler and (2) copper pipes on all the floors
    to take advantage of the radiated heat produced by hot-hot! water
    which is circulated through the pipes. Weather you use oil, gas
    or wood as the fuel.....I believe FHW requires a boiler.
    
    MArk
    

    re.11
    
> Oil ins't the question here, its BOILER>>FHW & FURNACE>>FHA.

    
    Slow down, Mark,
    
    Do you mean -- BOILER>>FHW & HEAT EXCHANGER>>FHA
    
    The dictionary issued a this DEC plant says:
    
    boiler n. A vessel in which water is heated and circulated, either
              as hot water or as steam, for heating or power.
    
    furnace n. An enclosure in which heat is generated by the combustion
               of a suitable fuel.
    
    heat exchanger is not in this dictionary.
    
    Now, I own a FHW furnace. FHW comes from a tankless type boiler
    and circulates throughout the house. The FURNACE is below the tankeless
    boiler. The furnace part is enclosed from the outside world and heat is
    generated by the combustion of a suitable fuel. The burner creates
    heat. Mine is oil, but some may use gas. Oil furnace can be for both
    boilers (tankless or not) or heat exchangers. I, myself, have never
    seen a gas FHW(boiler) furnace.
    
    
    Alan
    btw, don't they moonshine in big copper boilers, that gives me an
    idea :)

    
    	the way mine was set up, 160 low setting, 180 high dif 20,
    I wasn't getting enough hot water and what i was getting wasn't
    very hot, I was reading in the boiler manual ( which i finally found!)
    that with a tankless hot water system set the HI limit to 220 and
    the low limit to 200. This seems to be working well since there
    is now HOT water.
    				Paul

Re: .10 and all 

Here is some up to date information on Riello:

They are not going out of business.

Riello is an Italian firm and is the largest producer of oil burner systems
in the world.  They export to over 50 countries including the USA.  The USA
is NOT their largest market.

It is true that some repair people will quote Riello parts as being hard
to get.  This is only partly true.  They are hard to get in that the main
structural parts used on a Riello burner are not interchangable with Becketts
or some other domestic brands.  Repair people like to stock the minimum number
of parts to do the job.  Since main Riello parts are not interchangable they 
become a unique stock item and thus "the parts become hard to get".  Sometimes
the information they provide is for their own expedience.

As for real parts availability, for me, McNally in Worcester (a large
heating/plumbing wholesaler) supplies the greater Worcester area with Riello 
parts to all oil companies in the area that need or wish to buy them.  They
also sell over the counter to people off the street so anyone can go in and
buy parts.  For small Riello units there are only a few elements which would 
normally require replacement over the life of the system.  These are:
nozzle assembly, electronic control unit, oil pump, air shutter piston and
oil valve.

The most common replacment part in any burner is the nozzle.  Riello uses
nozzle assemblies which are standardized on all small domestic burners so 
nozzles can be gotten anywhere.  I just bought a new one for mine - it
cost $4.75.

Why would anyone buy a Riello?  The main reason I would think is efficiency.
In Europe, for example, where fuel oil is mucho expensive an efficient
oil burner is absolutely required.  The Riello Mectron 3M on my FHW system 
measures around 88% efficient.  Fuel oil is delivered to the nozzle at
very high pressures to ensure consistent atomization.  When the burner
goes off an oil piston closes the air/blower shutter to minimize loss
of heat up the flue.  I would think that domestic burners are
beginning to approach this but they have been in catch up mode.

Secondly, the design of the Riello seems to be much cleaner
and maintenance (when required) is very simple to accomplish.
The main burner assembly can be removed for a nozzle change in about
2 minutes.  I have found ours to be very reliable and it seems to
maintain its efficiency level throughout its nozzle life.

All in all I have been very pleased with the unit and my fuel bills attest
to how efficient it really is.


-peter

re Note 1439.15 by SETH::IVANY:

>     I had 2 new heating systems put in a 2-family 6 years ago. One was
>     an H.B.Smith with a Carlin burner, the other was a Weil-Mclain with
>     a Beckett burner. For some reason the burner men (different ones
>     over 5 years) couldn't seem to get the Carlin adjusted right, it
>     always carboned up and would have to be cleaned twice a year. 

We have had the H.B.Smith-Carlin combination for 9 years, and have had exactly
the same problem -- sooting up, with apparent inability to get it adjusted
right (we've gone through 3 heating companies in that time, with over 6
technicians in total!).

(How would you like to awake in the middle of the night, with the basement
filled with acrid smoke, TWO WEEKS after the annual cleaning!)

Well, our troubles are about to be over, I hope.  The boiler firebox has burned
through (in 9 years!), so we have to replace it.  I'm inclined to replace the
burner as well (I don't think that the trouble was entirely the fault of the
boiler design, although the technicians have claimed that it was very hard to
clean).

(Our current technician says that the H.B.Smith design has changed since then. 
But he recommends Weil-Mclain.)

Bob

    My parents are replacing their boiler  (old unit lasted 25 years)
    and are having difficulty even getting estimates since people
    are so busy.  (They live in upstate NY)  The quote they did get
    was for a Utica Starfire II (SF4125WT) cast iron boiler.  
    This is for 2 zones 140,000 BTUs.  The estimate for installation
    was $2500.  Is the Utica boiler any good?  Is this estimate seem
    in line?
    
    Many thanks...another area I know nothing about.
    

re Note 1439.24 by CLT::ZIMAN:

>     was for a Utica Starfire II (SF4125WT) cast iron boiler.  
>     This is for 2 zones 140,000 BTUs.  The estimate for installation
>     was $2500.  

I just paid $1800 for an installed Weil-McLain cast iron boiler.  But this was
re-using my old burner, controls, and circulator since the old boiler was only
9 years old.  For a 25 year old system I suspect that those components would
not be re-used.

Bob

              Checked Heating_fhw, plumbing_* and found nothing on this
              specific topic.



       I'm having a curious type of problem with my oil fired boiler.  The
       unit is used for 2 zone FHW heating and hot water via the tankless coil.

       Its not a real problem yet, but I'd like to correct the situation before
       it becomes one.

       The cold water line that feeds the heating lines (separate from the one
       that feeds the tankless hot water coil) has the following in series:

       on/off -> backflow -> pressure reducing -> on/off -> heating pipes/
       valve#1   preventer   valve to 12-15 psi   valve#2   circulator loop


       2 issues:

          1.  The pressure in the boiler was around 35-40 psi when I first
              noticed a few weeks ago.  I figured the pressure reducing valve
              was bad.  But I closed valve #1, drained some water from the
              boiler to de-pressurize it, opened the gate on the 
              pressure reducing valve to equalize pressure on both sides of it,
              closed this gate, then turned the water back on by turning on
              valve #1.  

              In addition, I adjusted the pressure reducing valve to supply the
              lowest pressure possible, by turning the little nut on top full
              counterclockwise (or whatever the instruction sheet said).
              This is Watts part, #1156F, I believe.

              The result was that the pressure stayed around 12 psi (like it's
              supposed to for a few hours, but then went up to about 25 psi
              where it's been ever since.

              Looks like the press/reduc valve is bad, any other opinions?

          2.  The backflow preventer has something called an "atmospheric vent"
              which has a pipe coming out of the vent aimed towards the floor.
              (similar to a pressure relief valve would)  This "vent" drips
              water consistently.

              Should I replace this too?

     My feeling right now is that both of these have to be replaced, but would
     welcome other thoughts and opinions.

Thanks

Steve

    Mine did the same thing.  I would adust the pressure reducing valve
    and it would be OK for a while, then the pressure would creep back
    up.  I just had it replaced.  No more problem.
    
    Bob
    

    Another possibility is that your tankless coil has developed a leak.
    You can check this by repeating your previous steps and shuuting
    off the feed to the tankless coil.  If the pressure doesn't go up
    then you have found the problem.
    
    /Ernie  

    On a related note: 
    
    I have this fabulous 33 yr. old set-up:
      
       on/off ->  boiler  -> pressure
       valve                 safety valve

    So I have to manually check the boiler pressure often.
    I also have no faith in the ancient safety valve. 
    
    I have heard that you can get a press. reducer valve in conjunction
    with a pressure safety valve that would look like this:


    
       on/off -> pressure reducing -> pressure     -> boiler (no 
       valve     valve to 12-15 psi   safety valve    other safety)
         |                               |
         V                               V
       tankless                        emergency
       tube                            runoff
            
    Anyone know more on this? Is this the way it would install?
    
    Anyone know a good brand/price/retailer?

    Thanks.

       

    I replaced the pressure reducer and backflow preventer myself, buying
    all the parts in Spag's.  Also, replaced the safety valve which
    was dripping.

re < Note 2628.2 by THESIS::HOHENGASSER >
>                         -< May be the tankless coil >-

   I tried your suggestion, only the inverse of it:  I shut the heating feed 
   line down completely, depressurized the boiler, and left the heating feed
   line CLOSED, so that no water pressure could come from this source.  
   (I think this should produce the same information.)

   This leaves only the tankless coil to provide water pressure, an sure enough,
   the pressure gradually increased to about 25psi as it had previously.
   This would lead me to believe that it is a leak in the coil as you suggest...

   But-  water when heated while "confined" in the boiler can show an increase
   in pressure, since PV=nRT, but is 160 degrees F hot enough to increase the
   water pressure in the boiler?

   A couple other things I noticed last night that may be contributing to the
   problem:  Both of the pressure relief valves are stuck (corroded) closed,
   such that they cannot release any pressure.  These are designed as a safety
   valve in case the pressure reducing valve goes south, or a thermostat fails
   to shut the burner off, and the boiler temp runs away.

   The two valves I refer to are: 1 on the tankless coil, the other on the
   boiler itself.  These certainly need replacement.

   Any other ideas on the first problem, i.e., do you still think its the coil
   leaking?

Steve

    I was over at Norm Roy's house last night, you know, N.H.'s best
    master plumber, and we talked about problem #1.  Norm gave me
    a few suggestions to pass along.   Please excuse me if I'm not as
    articulate as he.
    
    If the problem is a hole in your tankless coil, then the pressure
    of your boiler should be equal to the city/well pressure, since
    the cold, city water supply should be leaking from the coil into
    the boiler.
    
    There is a possibility that your expansion tank may be undersized for
    your system.   With all the air compressed in the exp tank, your boiler
    pressure would rise as the boiler water rose in temperature.  Perhaps
    the exp tank is even bad. 
    
    The gauge on the boiler could be bad.  And he mentioned that some
    boiler gauges have atmospheric gradiant scales on them and to make
    sure that you weren't reading the wrong scale.
    
    Let us know what happens.
    
    Mark

    Where can one buy this "fireplate device"? Can it be attached
    to Cast Iron Stoves , or only to steel stoves? How efficient is
    it? (Meaning is it worth the money?) Does it go inside or does
    it bolt to the outside?

    I HAVE A FHW FURNACE THAT I REPLACED THE BURNER ON. I REPLACED THE
    OLD BECKETT BURNER WITH AN ORTLI ASSEMBLY. I AM PRESENTLY EXPERIENCING
    A 10 -15% SAVINGS IN OIL....HOWEVER, THERE IS A PROBLEM NONE OF THE
    OIL TECHNICIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SOLVE.  SEVERAL TIMES A DAY THE
    BURNER WILL START TO RUN AND RUN FOR 5 TO 10 SECONDS AND SHUT OFF. THIS
    BARELY ALLOWS THE FIRE TO START, SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T. THE BURNER
    DOESN'T RESTART FOR 10 TO 15 MINUTES AFTER THIS FALSE START BUT RUNS
    NORMALLY. ALL ELECTRICAL CONTROLS HAVE BEEN REPLACED SINCE THE PROBLEM
    STARTED !!  (UNDER CONTRACT)  ANYBODY GOT ANY IDEAS ??

I think questions like this have been discussed before, but with notes titled 
"FHA oil" and "Yet another oil burner question" they're kind of hard to find.
You might want to look through 1111.52 for possibilities.

Paul

    
    	 I'm not claiming to be oil burner expert but has anybody checked
    	the flow of fuel? Perhaps the burner is getting just enough fuel
    	to start but the flow isn't strong enough to sustain it and the
    	burner has a flameout. Normally the timers are set for 5 minutes
    	so the burner doesn't build up fuel in the chamber and explode,
    	10-15 minutes sounds like a long wait time, your manual would
    	probably tell you though.
    
    
    	Glenn

    THE FLOW RATE HAS BEEN CHECKED, ALL FUEL LINES AND FILTERS REPLACED,
    TANK CLEANED AND A NEW FUEL PUMP... THEN THE FLOW RATE WAS RE-CHECKED 
    BUT THE PROBLEM STILL EXISTS.

    I just had a new burner/boiler replacement from Atlas Oil Co.  They
    recommended I get the Ortli instead of a Beckett burner, with a
    Weil_McClain boiler.  I spoke with two people who had recently in-
    stalled Ortli's as I had never heard of them, and one of them 
    cautioned me NOT TO GET THE Ortli, as they were going crazy with
    the one they had.  The sales man I spoke with, after confronting
    him with my input, did say that unless everything is perfect, an
    Ortli can be troublesome.  The installer (sub contracter) of Atlas
    agreed that the Beckett was more reliable, and the Ortli was 
    recommended for many applications because it only requires a 6"
    exhaust stack, which Beckett thinks 7" is minimum.
    
    I would look into back-pressure in the exhaust, or perhaps a small
    amount of water in the oil.
    
    good luck
                Ron
    

    
    There is a Honeywell electronic controller on my burner that starts the
    burner.  You may have the very same controller.  It is possible that
    the controller is bad, causing this behavior.  I would try replacing
    this controller with a new one to see if the problem still occurs.  As
    this part is fairly expensive (about $50), I'd try to make sure it is
    returnable. 
    
    -tm
    
               

    If you are still having the problem, the cause is probably the
    thermostat.  There are discussions about how to install/adjust
    thermostats.  Did you replace the thermostat also?  In these
    discussions it is mentioned that the thermostat has to be 
    perfectly level on the wall.  Otherwise the mercury switch in the
    thermostat might bob, causing the burner to come on for a few seconds.
                     
    Jack

    I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MY 23 YR OLD BURNHAM FHW BY GAS UNIT.
    I CHECKED WITH A PLUMBER WHO SAID IT HAS TO DO WITH THE THERMOSTAT
    BUT I THINK THERE IS MORE TO IT TOO.
    
    ERIC

    
>>> BURNER WILL START TO RUN AND RUN FOR 5 TO 10 SECONDS AND SHUT OFF.

    I think I replied to a similar question in another note in this file
    but here goes again.
    
    Your pump turns on but you don't get any fire, so in a few seconds the
    stack switch says 'no fire' and shuts down the pump for the burner.
    
    I had the same problem, it took my oil company three tries before they
    found the problem.
    
    REPLACE the porcelain insulators that hold the electrodes going from
    the transformer.
    
    They tend to develop hair-line cracks which act the same as a crack in
    your cars distributor cap and make an easy path for a short, thus you
    don't develop any spark to ignite the oil.
    
    Hope it helps
    
    Craig
    
    

      
    my feelings exactly !  at least as to where the problem exists.
    I'm having a problem with my FHW Becket burner but it is due to
    back pressure and not enough draft. I was getting oil sprayed
    back into the transformer and soaking the electrodes thus no
    spark to ignite the oil. My oil man explained how those babies
    work during the three hours $$$ he was there fixing all the other
    problems that were caused by the system cloging up. (the nozzle
    and end cap were too big causing excess oil also!) 
    
    things to check....
    
    the pump pressure (is enough/too much oil being sprayed)
    spark (he put a screwdriver between the electrodes that caused an
    arc , although I would not try this)
    
    a representative from the furnace company is coming to my house
    tomorrow (to replace the cracked inside jacket) I'll let you
    know if I learn anymore.
    by the way my system is 9 months old(as is my house) its a Trianco
    furnace with a beckett burner. it was a factory package and looks
    like I got the lemon.
    
    ace
    

    I may be off here, but doesn't the original note mention a NEW system
    and a NEW burner?  Why would the insulators be cracked?
    
    

     YOU MENTIONED THE ELECTRICAL CONTROLS BEING REPLACED,HOW ABOUT
    THE WIRING? IF THE WIRING IS OLD ESPECIALLY IF IT IS THE BX VARIETY
    THE METALIC SHIELD ACTS AS A GRUOND IF IT SHORTS AGAINST A HOT WIRE
    IN THE CABLE IT COULD CAUSE THE SYSTEM TO INTERMITTENTLY TURN ON
    AND OFF.

    WELL THE OIL COMPANY TECHNICIANS WERE BACK AGAIN AND THIS TIME THEY
    REPLACED THE PHOTO-EYE THAT DETECTS THE FLAME. THEY DON'T THINK THAT 
    THIS IS THE CAUSE, BUT THATS THE LAST PART THAT HASEN'T BEEN REPLACED.
    THE BURNER RUNS PERFECTLY WHEN IT RUNS AND SUPPLIES PLENTY OF HEAT. IT
    WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THE PROBLEM STOPS. THEY DID CHECK ALL OF
    THE WIRING BACK TO THE ELECTRICAL PANEL AND DID EXAMIME THE INSULATORS
    ALL CHECKED OUT. THE THERMOSTATS ARE WIRED INTO THE CIRCULATORS AND DO
    NOT AFFECT THE BURNER.  STAY TUNED..

    
    If anyone is interested heres what happened to my problem that I
    mentioned in .9 ...
    The rep. from Trianco met with my oil co. rep. (May & Hally, Groton
    Ma.) He wanted to cut up the furnace lining and piece it in to
    replace the cracked portion which would avoid tearing down the
    furnace to replace it in one piece. May & Hally refused and after
    a day of arguing they decided to replace the furnace. Well, they
    got to my house with the replacement supplied by Trianco and it
    was another piece of s--t! I called back May & Hally and told him
    to make a cash deal, he did, I got $700.00 credit and kicked in
    another $1200.00 and I now own a Peerless castiron 120,000 BTU
    furnace with a Peerless 1.10 GPH burner. I hope I did the right
    thing !?!
    An interesting twist to the story is that May & Hally did not
    install the original system, when I had problems and called the
    twit who did the work for the builders I was not impressed with
    his answer "don't worry about it, I see it all the time". Thats
    when I called May & Hally to ask them about the crack, they took
    it from there and it would not have cost me a cent if I had not
    upgraded in the process. A classic example of a good company
    going the extra yard for a customer, hard to find these days.
    
    ace
    

    (This note reconstructed from 3241 which originally asked about Amtrol
    tanks.  I didn't notice the HOT-WATER keyword and incorrectly entered
    a new note.  The existing responses answered my questions, but I had a
    couple more directly related to the fhw system...)
    
    I'm about to replace our FHW oil burner/boiler.  I've gotten two estimates
    so far with a third coming this evening.  Both estimates look very 
    reasonable (about $2300-$2500).  I'm going with a Weil-McLain boiler 
    with Beckett burner.  This will replace a 9-year-old Burnham American
    boiler thats rusting out and has started leaking.
    
    One of my two estimates includes replacing the circulation pumps (one 
    for each of the 2 zones) and the control box.  The other estimate is
    going to reuse them.  The system is about 9 years old and the rationale 
    for not replacing them was that they rarely fail and they looked in 
    good shape.  The other guy said that he'd replace them because he buys 
    packaged burner/boilers that come with the control box and 1 circulation 
    pump and he'd just be "adding" one more.  He said that if we had any 
    problems, they'd be under warranty and we'd really have a completely new 
    system.
    
    This made me wonder how often they really fail.  The existing pumps are not
    manufactured by TACO, which the new ones would be.  I can't remember the 
    name.

    What about the control box - it's by Honeywell - anyone ever have one fail?
    
    Another point that came up is that one of the guys said I'd have to 
    replace the fuel line from the tank since he'd have to bring it up to 
    code.  It's currently a copper pipe covered over by some concrete around 
    the base of the wall.  He said it now has to be sleeved in PVC pipe 
    before it's concreted over.  This makes a lot of since to me.  However,
    the other guy said he would not have to replace the pipe, but would
    have to put concrete over a section of it that isn't covered.  He said 
    that it doesn't have to be sleeved in PVC unless it's buried in cement
    (as in buried in the floor - not just covered over).   This sounded a
    little weird to me.  Since both estimate says they'll do the work to
    code, I'm surprised that the two of them would look at it differently.
    
    Thoughts?
    
    Rob
    

    I'm not sure if it's already been written before, but the copper
    lines that were buried in cement floors, that supply the oil from
    the tank to the furnace, do eventually leak.  The concrete will
    eat up the copper over time.  That's why they now protect it by
    using PVC to keep cement and copper separate.  So, if your current
    line is copper and is buried in cement, I'd definetely upgrade that.
    
    As far as the zone pumps questions, just how long the old pumps
    will last is hard to say.  I've noticed that the new ones have much
    smaller motors.  The thing about going with everything new is that
    you're less likely to have trouble for a while, where continuing
    with the old motors, and although still good, may break down in
    any near future.  If the electric motor doesn't go, the pump itself
    will.  In either case, the whole  pump/motor unit must be replaced.
    But, I've also seen them last and last.  One question;
    are there oil ports on the old units and have you ever oiled the 
    units?  If they do require some maintenance such as oiling, and you 
    never did it, then there might be a lot of wear and not that much
    life left.  I did have to replace one on my furnace, but it was
    at least 30 yrs. old.
    
    Good Luck!
    

One of the estimators told me why they now sleeve the copper pipe with PVC and
I agree it's the right thing to do.  I was just surprised the other guy said
he would just cover the part of the old pipe that didn't have concrete over it.
They both would be having the inspector view the work (and in Andover, Ma. I
understand they are PICKY), so I wondered if the code differed for new 
installations and for repairs to existing installations.

Anyway, I went with the folks who will do the sleeved pipe.  They also were
the ones who planned to use the existing circulating pumps.  I went down and
checked them.  I was wrong before - they are TACO 007's.  They're water-cooled
and supposedly last forever, so it didn't make sense to me to replace them.
(Can't believe I said that - One is guaranteed to fail next week now - or
worse, it'll be when it's 15 below!) :-{

I also went with an Amtrol hot water maker.  They got it all hooked up yesterday
but have to come back for some electrical work and the new oil line.  The
Weil-McLain/Beckett is sure quieter than the old Burnham!

Now it'll be interesting to see the effect on my oil consumption.

Rob

    The last new construction that I looked at, in New Hampshire, sent the
    supply pipe from the oil tank to the burner along the joists.  I don't
    know whether or not that's legal in MA, but it certainly makes sense to
    me.  That way, if a leak starts, you know about it.  The joists were
    high enough that there was no danger of bumping into the pipe just from
    walking around.
    
       Gary

    We're now at the stage of selecting the specific boiler.  We had
    originally asked for quotes on the Weil-McLain, but a couple of
    contractors have expressed a preference for some of the others:
    Burnham, Peerless, H. B. Smith.  The claim is that the Weil-McLain uses
    neoprene gaskets, which a) make for more work; b) make it difficult or
    impossible to put antifreeze into the system.  The other boilers use
    some sort of nipple connection, which makes it easier to put antifreeze
    in.
    
    Are they just feeding us a line, trying to save on their own labor?  Or
    is this a real concern?
    
    Any other advice on choosing between the four companies, since the
    prices all seem to be within a couple of hundred dollars (small
    potatoes, since we're doing a whole installation).
    
      Gary

re< Note 1439.30 by TOKLAS::FELDMAN "PDS, our next success" >

    I'm not sure what you're talking about referring to neoprene gaskets.

    I assume the anti-freeze you would add to the system would be only
    of you wanted to shut the house down over a winter period?  Why not
    just drain the lines?  Not sure why this is a consideration.

    I can say that I had a Peerless gas fired boiler (for FHW) installed
    a year ago and it has worked great!  Most of the contractors I had
    quote on the job were recommending the Peerless boiler.  It has a 
    20 year guarantee against the boiler cracking.

     Steve

re Note 1439.30 by TOKLAS::FELDMAN:

>     We're now at the stage of selecting the specific boiler.  We had
>     originally asked for quotes on the Weil-McLain, but a couple of
>     contractors have expressed a preference for some of the others:
>     Burnham, Peerless, H. B. Smith.  The claim is that the Weil-McLain uses
>     neoprene gaskets, which a) make for more work; 

        We had an H. B. Smith, which burned out at 9 years at the
        gasket between sections.  We now have a Weil-McLain (and
        thanks for assuring me that they have a different gasket
        design!).

        Bob

	This may be an unusal question but the anti-freeze subject spurred 
	a thought.  Has anyone used or considered using anti-freeze for its
	rust inhibiting characteristics in a non-domestic use boiler.  Such
	as the FHW systems or thermal transfers (AMTROL or SUPER-STOR)?

    Re: .30
    
    
    As for the neoprene gaskets vs. the steel nipples ... 
    
    We've had this discussion before.  My heating contractor said
    that the neoprene gaskets are cheaper to manufacture and reduces
    the cost of Weil-McLain boilers, but he is concerned that they
    will not last as long as steel nipples.  They haven't been
    around long enough to judge.  I went with his recommendation
    (Peerless).  Whatever you do, be sure to go with a cast iron
    boiler rather than steel, since the steel boilers rust out much
    more quickly. I believe Peerless only makes cast iron, but some
    of the manufacturers (including Burnham) make steel models,
    too.
    
    RE: .31
    
    > I assume the anti-freeze you would add to the system would be only
    > if you wanted to shut the house down over a winter period?  Why not
    > just drain the lines?  
    
    Are you serious?  Draining the lines of a hot water system sounds
    like s *royal* pain.  Then when you fill it up again, you have to
    make sure all the air is bled out of the system, or you'll have
    "cold sections".  This sure isn't something I'd want to do.
    

re< Note 1439.34 by REGENT::MERSEREAU >
>    > I assume the anti-freeze you would add to the system would be only
>    > if you wanted to shut the house down over a winter period?  Why not
>    > just drain the lines?  
>    
>    Are you serious?  Draining the lines of a hot water system sounds
>    like s *royal* pain.  Then when you fill it up again, you have to
>    make sure all the air is bled out of the system, or you'll have
>    "cold sections".  This sure isn't something I'd want to do.
    

       You make it sound like its an impossible task.  I've done it several 
       times. 

       Shut off the boiler supply line valve.      
       Connect a hose to the drain lines that are usually located right
       the boiler.  
       Open the valves and drain the system.

       To recharge the system, close the drain valves, and open the supply 
       valve; turn on the thermostat to get the hot water
       circulating, then go around and bleed the air off all the bleeder
       valves on the system.   Might take a half hour on an average sized
       two story two zone system.

       As has been mentioned before, only drain the system when you have to,
       cause each time you refill it, you're refilling with fresh water that
       will have a new batch of elements that will do some corrosion to the
       inside of the pipes.  The old stagnated water will have already 
       finished any chemical reactions that may have taken place.  The
       primary reason I've had to drain a system is so that the purge valves 
       can be added.  Seems like there are some lazy plumbers out there.
      
       So, can you explain what you are planning to do with the anti-freeze?

  Steve
       

  Regardless of how easy or hard it is to drain the lines, FHW system
  antifreeze is often recommended for people who heat with a wood stove
  and have FHW for backup.  The wood stove might keep the center of the
  house toasty warm and therefore keep the FHW system from kicking on.
  Without antifreeze, this might cause a heating line on an outside wall
  to freeze...

  JP

    ps The new steel boilers by Burnham have a 20 yr guarantee.

    Has anyone out there done an electric heat to oil-fired FHW conversion
    themselves?  At least with respect to the plumbing (radiators and
    pipes to/from the boiler)?  I've looked through the notes on heating
    conversions but didn't find much on the subject.
    
    I plan to position the boiler and run all the plumbing myself, and
    also plan to run the oil line from the oil tank (which will be outside)
    to the burner.  The power hookup I'll leave to an electrician and
    the firing and tuneup of the burner to an oilman.
    
    I live in NH.  I've spoken with the fire chief (permits to install
    and operate the oil system are issued throught the fire dept.) and
    he has no objections regarding me doing the work.
    
    I looking for "things to look out for" while I'm doing the work.
    
    The house already has a chimney, (lined and apprantly the right
    size (8" x 8")), to which a wood stove was hooked up.  I plan to
    junk the wood stove.
        
    -Joe
    
    
    -Joe

    On the electrical end of it, make sure you have an emergency shut
    off upstairs(if oil burner is in basement).

    By the way all of the switches are in serier so if you switch off
    the burner in one location than you have to make sure all switches
    are on. Even the fire omatic which has a senceing device on it to
    sence a fire in the celler. Good luck
    
    D Allen

    If your running the oil line in from the outside and going underground,
    it might be a good idea to run the feed line inside another larger
    pipe.  That way if you have problems, you dont have to dig for
    the line.
    
    Just as a side thought.  You might want to keep your wood stove and
    run a water coil thru it to heat the hot water.  After the fire goes
    out, the oil kicks in.....
    
    Good luck?
    JD

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    it has been a while for this note, but here i go ..
    
    i have the chance to buy a used hs tarm wood/coal add on boiler.
    it is about 3 years old and in excellent condition. i have priced new
    ones for $2,200 i can get this one for $800.
    here are my questions:
    
    - any cons on this boiler... 
    
    - i know that wood boilers have a tendencey to build up creasole (sp?) ,
      any  way to minimize this besides using well seasoned wood?
    
    - how do you move something like this ?? very heavy 600 lbs.. and i
    need  to get it down my basement though an outdoor precast cement
    steps.  out of the sellers should be a bit easier, no stairs ... just 
    push/roll onto trailer backed up to door.
    
    - what is the best method for hooking one of these things up. i have a 
    FHW boiler with a hot water coil.... the boiler also has a hot water
    coil.
    
    
    thanks in advance for the help
                                  

    Re: .5
    
    Funny, I'm in the middle of the same process (already bought it, now
    gotta move it... :^( ). Except I gotta go down some cellar stairs,
    no outside access...
    
    My brother-in-law tells me I gotta get my chimney lined (or get a metal
    insert put in it), since it's an OLD chimney. He used to sell these
    boilers a long time ago, he's a plumber.
    
    Mine is the HS Tarm model 300 (no hot water coil that I could
    determine).
    
    Fred

    
    
    
    	I just bought a new CDW wood stove that weighs about 500 pounds
    	I used 6 guys to get it off the back of my truck (it was put
    	in with a fork-lift) Once it was off we realized only 4 would 
    	fit through the door it was rough going at that point.
    
    	I suggest you don't try moving with less than 4 good-sized guys
    	and watch you back.
    
    						Mike
    						----
    
    	P.S. Once you get it on flat ground you can try maneuvering it
    	     around on one of those roll around car jacks. ( I haven't 
    	     tried this yet but will as soon as I get my fire-wall and
    	     slate floor put in)

    What you are describing is not usually known as an "air-to-air heat
    exchanger"; those devices take "stale" indoor air, remove the heat,
    and use the heat to warm "fresh" outdoor air, then exhaust the
    "stale" air to the outside and vent the "fresh" (warmed) air to
    the inside.
    
    I've heard the device you describe called a "waste heat extractor"
    but I doubt that is the official name.  I've seen several types,
    although none with fans (most relied on convection currents to get
    the heat from the tubes distributed through the room in which the
    heating system resided); the fan seems like a good idea.
    
    For the compartively little it would cost you, you DO manage to
    "save" (not waste) some of your heating dollars; with oil in the
    keeps-getting-higher mode right now, any decrease in the amount
    of energy you send up the chimney is probably worthwhile.
    
    I've never used one, but I've seen them used, and they seem to
    (in general) work.

As an aside, could you tell us who your oil service guy is? (not here, in note
2015).  Anyone who will say "Well, I have one for $100, but you can get one
cheaper at Spag's" has got to be alright.

Paul

Another device that can save you money is an automatic vent damper.  Or
at least it used to be - I haven't heard of these for a while.  Are they
still available?

		Steve

re .3:

We have an automatic vent damper in our system that was installed two years
ago.  I believe it was required by the HEAT loan people.  I believe it solves
a different problem than the device in .0 -- that conserves the heat that's
lost when the damper's open.

    I've got one of those heat extracter things on my flue pipe.  I've
    had it several years now, and it works pretty well.  I wouldn't
    say I'm getting enough heat to raise the cellar temperature 15
    degrees - 2 or 3 degrees might be more like it - but my initial stack
    temperature may be lower to begin with and I've got quite a big,
    quite cold, basement.  It does put out warm air, it's controlled 
    by a thermostat on the unit so the fan runs only when there is heat 
    to extract, and it seems to be standing up pretty well.

Is there a problem with losing chimney draft when you have one of these?
It's been pointed out in this file before that part of the reason for the
high exhaust temperature is to create a chimney draft; the super-efficient
cold exhaust furnaces reportedly have fans in the exhaust.  I would expect
that lowering the exhaust temperature with a heat extractor would reduce the
chimney draft.

    The stack temperature on mine is still around 400 degrees - plenty
    enough for a draft!  It could conceivably be a problem if you 
    were starting with a lower temperature to begin with, I suppose.
    

    It would take a heck of a lot of effort to extract enough heat
    from the high temperature exhaust to cool it to a point where
    it would begin to affect the draft.  You might drop from 500
    degrees F to 475; even dropping to 400 shouldn't have a marked
    effect.  The super-efficient furnaces have a fairly complicated
    heat exchanger to extract all the "waste" heat from their exhaust;
    a $100 add-on flue pipe extractor would have nowhere near that
    level of sophistication.

    RE: Steve Wellcome
    
    So were did you buy your heat extractor?  Did you install it yourself?
    If so, anything special about the installation?
    
    -al

    <-- thanks Al I was just about to ask that of Steve W....
    
    Steve H.........................

     I thought you wanted to maintain a high (enough) temperature in the 
flue to avoid condensation of chemicals that would eat away at the flue 
liner.  Or is this just for wood stoves?

     How many feet of stovepipe are needed between the furnace and the 
chimney to have enough room to install one of these? 

Also, is this heat extractor only for oil-fired furnaces?  I have a gas-fired
steam furnace.  I don't have the slightest idea what my stack temperature is.
The furnace is only about 3 years old, so it is very new.

Ed..

    re: .9
    I got it from my oil burner serviceman, and he installed it.  I
    could have gotten one from Spag's or some other source, but I
    didn't want to go to the trouble of dealing with the installation.
    The installation wouldn't be hard though.  I was a little involved
    in my case because of weird pipe angles and elbows and such that
    had to be sorted out, but there certainly isn't anything special
    you need to know to put one in.

    re: .11, .12
    Yes, you do need to maintain a certain stack temperature to prevent
    or (minimize) condensation, etc.  400 degrees is plenty.  Probably
    300 degrees is plenty.  This is a much bigger deal with woodstoves.
    
    This ought to work perfectly well on a gas-fired boiler, assuming
    you don't have a super-efficient boiler already (3 years old, you 
    might) with a very low stack temperature to begin with.
    
    This thing occupies about a foot (roughly) of flue length.  It's
    available either in a straight-through design, or a right-angle
    design that replaces an elbow.

    re: .14
    
>   This ought to work perfectly well on a gas-fired boiler, assuming
>   you don't have a super-efficient boiler already (3 years old, you 
>   might) with a very low stack temperature to begin with.
    
    I've seen these things that state that they shouldn't be used with gas
    furnace.  I think there's a special version for gas.
    
    -Bob
    

    RE: Steve Wellcome
    
    How is the electrical connections of the heat extractor done?
    Is the fan simply connected to a standard wall socket (120 V) and then a
    temperature sensor turns it on or off?
    
    Or is the fan on/off connected somehow to the boiler control box
    or to the burner (oil pump)?
    
    Does the fan run off of 120V or the 24V that drives the zone valves?
    
    -al

I've seen these things used in woodstoves.  Brand name is "Magic Heat" or
something close.  They plug into a 120V wall outlet and have a built in
thermostat.  When the stovepipe gets hot, a fan kicks on and blows air through
passages.  When the temp. falls below some limit, it shuts off.

I don't know if these are the same as what's used on oil furnaces or not.

-Mike

    Re: .16, .17
    
    Yes, same thing.  It just plugs in the wall and has its own thermostat
    to turn it on and off.

Could one of the regular Spags-goers check out the types (gas, oil, etc.) and
price of this device?

Would something like this work on a gas water heater?  The water heater is in 
the garage and this might be a way to get some warmth out there in the 
winter months.

Dave

    
    I saw one yesterday at Spags, the brand is Magic Heat. The inlet/outlet 
    pipes appeared to be 8". I couldn't find the box or help to ask about 
    applications. The price was $87.95 I believe. It's more than 12" long so
    check your flue length before buying.
    
    CdH
    

    Yes they have "Magic Heat" brandat spags. A month ago the price was
    $79.95. I bought one last week there for $84.95. They are available
    in the fireplace section between plumbing and Electrical depts. Find
    a store clerk in or near the fireplace section and ask them about it.
    The clerk will pasge the guy if he is not there. (Spags clerks wear
    small brown aprons around their waist) Anyways they are available
    at Spags in 6",7",and 8" round. The instruction book shows a different
    Thermostat part number for Gas appliances. I would assume the thermo-
    stat kicks in at a higher temp since most gas appliances I've ever
    seen have running pilot flames, then the "main jet" kicks in when the
    appliances thermostat calls.The thermo on the "magic Heat" type box is
    probably set to only start the fan when the stack temp rises up enough
    due to "the main jet" kicking in when called by the appliances thermo.
       The" Magic Heat" replaces a VERTICAL 12" long section of ROUND 
    exhaust pipe with a minimum spacing to output of appliance of 12",max
    of 24". I haven't seen it available in the elbow version as described
    in a previous note. I priced a "Dumont" type heat exchanger (same
    thing) at my local plumbing supply store and that listed for about
    $120.00. So If you need the Elbow type I guess you'll have to pay a
    price. Spags was the best deal i could find locally (Worcester area)
    However they are out of the 6",and 7" for about another week till a
    new supply arrives (Then it will be a Zoo because of Christmas).
      Anyways I'm hoping to get mine installed this weekend. Oh yeah the
    unit also has an ON/OFF/AUTO switch on it so you can run the fan 100%,
    shut off 100%, or use the Thermo to run the fan =AUTO.  WIRING is 110V
    you can hardwire to your boiler or use the included rubber cord with
    110V plug to plug it into a nearby outlet. The switch is still on the
    unit either way.
       I'm hoping to get mine installed on my FHW boiler this weekend. I'll
    stick another note in next week (if notesfile is still here) and let
    all of you know how it works out.
                                                Mr.Bill

    RE: .22
    
    Just curious as to why it can only 'replace a VERTICAL 12" long
    section'?
    
    Why can't it be placed in a horizontal orientation?
    
    -al

    The instructions claim the box can fill with ash,or soot using oil or
    coal,  Creosote using wood, and that placing the unit on its' side is
    NOT recommended except in Gas installations. The inside of the box has
    a metal plate which moves back and forth over the tubes which is used
    to scrape them clean (suggested often cleaning with wood- once a week
    or so with oil) then the ash falls down (or gets blown out the chimney)
    into the boiler when scraping the tubes clean. I would imagine that
    this depends on how "clean" your burner burns. This of course is what
    the directions recommend. Obviously the manufacturer is only going to
    recommend an installation that will leave him with no liability (or at
    least Minimal liability) If some guy bought my house and never
    maintained the burner, and I had installed that device other than
    recommended- I wouldn't want it on my conscience... Thats all I'm
    trying to say... If you don't have that kind of room to install it you
    should probably look into the one described thats built into an elbow.
                                                     Mr. Bill

Thanks for all the information.  My gas boiler doesn't have a pilot, so I'm
interested to know what they say about which type to use.  Could you post the
address of the manufacturer so I can write and ask?

    Sorry this took so long.... I've been busy (that time of year)
    The address is:  Magic Heat Corporation
                     G-3084 E. Hemphill
                     Burton MI 48529
           Phone #  (313) 742-8036
    I see no reason that the "gas" version will not work in your
    application. With no pilot all you have is a "Main jet". I'm
    sure the output exhaust temp. is the same as a pilot version 
    when the appliance is calling for heat. The thermostat on M-
    heat would then turn on the fan.
    One correction in my previous note about installation:I said
    that the unit replaced a 12" straight vertical section of
    flue pipe. I got this straight from the instruction manual.
    This I am guessing is true for the 6" round. However upon
    measuring my 7" round it is more like 15"-16". I'd guess by
    that it may be even more on 8" round but I'm not sure. I'd
    measure my system and take a tape with me to the store to
    measure it before buying.
                                           Later
                                             Bill 

    I was just at Spag's today and the price on Magic Heats has been
    reduced to $74.88.  They are re-stocked and have 6", 7" and 8" models.
    
    -al

    Has anyone installed a Magic Heat unit? Any feedback on the ease of
    installation and the effectiveness of the unit. Ideally I'd like to
    hear data about before and after basement temperatures. 
    
    - Joe

    I just finished installing my Magic Heat.  It wasn't as easy as I
    thought it would be.  I didn't measure the before temperature, so
    I don't know if it's higher now.  The basement is still chilly but
    my basement is about 1000 sq ft and this Magic Heat just doesn't look
    like it was made to heat that kind of area.  It is definitely throwing
    off some nice warm air when it's running so that must be worth
    something.
    
    Some of the problems I encountered:
    
    - the unit is very heavy and bulky.  I'd say about 15-20 lbs.  So when
    maneuvering the unit at or about chest or head level your arms will
    tire quickly.
    
    - the instructions talk about mounting brackets that allow you to
    attach the unit to the ceiling to take the weight off of the exhaust
    vents.  There weren't any in the box so I'm assuming you have to supply
    your own as well as self tapping screws.
    
    - I bought a 7" model.  Unfortunately, the inlet and outlet of the
    Magic Heat are exactly 7" which is exactly the diameter of the metal
    vents.  It would have been alot nicer if the made it 7 1/16" or 6 15/16"
    such that the metal vent would either slip into or over the Magic
    Heat's inlet or outlet.  I spent considerable time trying to increase
    the diameter of the Magic Heat by about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch.
    They make the assumption that you have pre-crimped metal vents for
    both the inlet and outlet side which is highly unlikely (maybe on one
    side but not the other).
    
    - You most likely have to cut one of the metal vents shorter.  I only
    had a hacksaw.  It did the job but I guess if I had a tin snips that it
    would have gone faster.  The cut edge is very sharp and my hands got
    a bit cut up and scrapped.
    
    - There was a lot of soot and grime inside the metal vents (oil system).
    Wear your work clothes for this job.
    
    -al

I bought a Magic Heat as well, but haven't installed it yet.  Unlike .29, mine
has one end crimped so it will fit inside a piece of flue pipe properly, and a
crimped pipe will fit in the other.  All the pieces of flue pipe my flue is
made out of is crimped at one end.  Unfortunately, the Magic Heat people and
the people who installed my furnace had different opinions which end should be
crimped.  To install mine, I'll have to either get a piece of pipe that's
crimped on neither end (no problem) and another that's crimped on both ends, or
install the thing upside down. 

-Mike

    There is a tool which will crimp the ends of duct work.  It looks a bit
    like a cross between a pair of pliers and scissors.  The business end
    has three tangs on one side and two tangs on the other side much like
    forks.  The tangs are offset so that the two tangs fit into the slots
    of the three tangs.  
    
    When you close this gadget over the sheet metal, it will create about
    an inch of crimp.  You continue this action until you have crimped it
    as much as you need.  Should be about $5 to $10.  Home Depot carries
    them and I would imagine a sheet metal dealer would as well.

I sent away to Magic Heat for some information.  The brochure they sent isn't
very informative, but I'm pretty sure, based on comments here, that it won't
work for my application.  There's not much vertical pipe above my gas
boiler, and what there is has a vent damper and an air input thingie.
The horizontal run has an angle about a third of the way from the vertical
part to the chimney, so the Magic Heat would have to be more than three feet
away from the boiler.  I may look into the elbow unit mentioned in a earlier
reply.



			   |
	   ________________|
	  /		   |  C
	 /  _______________|  h
	/  /		   |  i
	|  |		   |  m
	|==| < vent damper |  n
       /    \ < air input  |  e
	|  |		   |  y
	|  |		   |
     +--+--+--+            |
     |	      |            |
     | boiler |            |


Magic Heat has a limited supply of factory seconds that they sell for $100
(as opposed to Spags $75 for "firsts").  When ordering, you're supposed to
specify whether you want it crimped or not.

    Re. .5
    
    	I had Bob from Chair City Oil install a heat extractor in my flue
    pipe back 3 weeks ago and I have to agree with Steve Wellcome that it
    did raise the temperature in my cellar about 5 degrees, not a lot
    however enough to remove more of that winter bite.  When I went down to
    the cellar this morning to feed my cats, I thought that the temperature
    was quite liveable as long as you wear a sweatshirt.  The temperature
    in Gardner last night got down to -7 degrees and the cellar felt like
    it was around 60 or so, so that isn't too bad.  The unit I have is made
    by Dumont and it has a 2 speed fan and it is also thermostatically
    controlled so that it only runs when the stack temperature gets to a
    certain temperature (unfortunately I don't know what that temperature
    is as when I got the unit, there was no paperwork with it).  The unit
    also has a mechanism to clean any soot off the internal pipes.  The
    total cost for the job was $195 so that wasn't too hard to take,
    although I could have saved $35 by installing it myself.  I was lazy
    and decided to let Bob handle everything.  He removed a section of the
    stack, installed the Dumont, cut a piece of tubing about a foot long to
    replace the removed piece, installed an outlet box on the heater so
    that I could plug the unit directly in, instead of running an extension
    cord, mixed up a batch of cement to patch any lost cement caused by
    removing the stack pipe, patched up the holes around the incoming oil
    tank pipes, and then wired everything up and got the sucker up and
    running all within an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes worth of
    time.  I thought that the $195 was worth it for all that he did and that
    also included the cost of the Dumont, wire, outlet box, double outlet,
    outlet box cover, wire nuts, additional pipe, patching cement, and
    labor.

    Bob's a great guy.
    
    Steve........................

    a friend of mine gave me a brochure on an interesting boiler. it
    is made by Crown, their Freeport Series. it is a cast iron unit.
    the boiler is ( best i could explain ) "barrel" shaped. the burner
    heats up the middle of the "barrel". the water in the boiler is
    contained in a couple of different "levels" from the middle. there
    are passages at each "level" for the heat from the burner to heat
    inbetween each "level". it also has an easy opening front door for
    easy access for cleaning ( once you remove the burner ). does any
    one out there has one or know more about these units??
    
    vic

    Outside of looking odd, what is its claim?
    
    John

    re .3
    
    	That almost sounds like the kind of unit that they used in one of
    	the TOH projects a few years back.  But I don't remember what the
    	improvement was in it over other units.  As I recall, it was a
    	starnge lookin unit.
    
    			Ken

    I have a 2 zone FHW oil furnace.  When I turn on the down stairs zone
    the pressure builds up to 30 psi and then blows water past the relief
    valve.  The water in the pipes had a trickling sound so I tried
    bleeding the lines.  Water seems to flow through the pipes freely. 
    However if the furnace runs long enough the pressure will build up to
    30 psi, and I still get a water trickle sound in the pipes.
    
    Does anyone know if my zone circulator is gone, or if the expansion
    tank is water logged, or what my problem is?
    
    
    Dave

    Hi Dave, I had the same problem last year. Replace the expansion tank
    and the regulator and that solved the problem.
    
    barry

    First..thank your relief valve. Next,check your expansion tank set-up.
    
    Marc H.

    RE .2
    
    What do I check for?  I had a suspicion that the expansion tank wasn't
    working properly.  I tried pushing in the air valve to see if any air
    would come out, and none came out.  I then tried to put 12# of air into
    it and it would not take any air.
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

    
    You have to drain it first. It's full of water. :-)

    I put in a new expansion tank yesterday, and that seems to have fixed
    my problem.
    
    Thanks for the advice.
    
    Dave

    
    I am presently seeing the same problem as .0 as far as a slow leak from
    the backflow preventer.  There's some corrosion at the bottom of the
    copper tube coming down off the valve, and there's a little water on
    the concrete floor.
    
    As far as I know, the system is working, and the pressure guage reads a
    normal (18-20lb) level of pressure, and it DOES move if you add water to 
    the system.  The expansion tank also appears to be OK since it has the
    distinctive sounds top and bottom when tapped.
    
    What is the purpose of the backflow preventer?  Since nobody addressed
    the leak described in .0, i'm not sure if replacement of the preventer
    is the solution?  Could other component problems cause this leak?  I
    recently replaced one of the (3) circulator pumps, and this started
    sometime after that was done.
    
    Is there any big secret to replacing them (looks like it's threaded
    onto the pipes, using tape), so it'd be straight-forward.

    
    
>    What is the purpose of the backflow preventer?

      To prevent water from the boiler from getting back into the drinking 
      supply.

>    Since nobody addressed
>    the leak described in .0, i'm not sure if replacement of the preventer
>    is the solution? 
                Mine leaks too.  The internal parts corrode after several years.
                A new one goes for about $35 at Spags.
     

     My problem is that the pressure relief valve relieves about once a week.

     I've changed the pressuure reducing valve, and the expansion tank to no
     avail.  I've isolated the tankless HW supply line from the water main
     (thinking the coil has a leak) and the same thing happens.  
     (Boiler pressure creeps up to 25-30psi)  I've given up on mine at this 
     point.

     
  SJ

    Creaping up boiler pressure could indicate a leaky automatic feed valve
    which does not completely shut when it reaches its proper setting (had
    the exact problem in a prev. house).
    
    Eric

    i had my presure relief valve open up the other day, to test it ,
    as it suggests on the valve, now the valve drips one drop
    every 10 secs or so. It is on my wood/coal add-on water furnace .
    it is only about 2 years old. Any ideas about how to stop that 
    leak ??
    
    
    tony
                                                   
    

    Open and close it a few more times to (hopefully) flush out any
    sediment that's preventing it from closing completely. If it still
    leaks, it's a 10 minute job to replace.
    
    Edd

    
    re: 11
    
    That worked - the leak has stopped - for now.  Must be some junk in the
    valve line which prevented the seal.
    
    Thanks.

    I recently asked a guy in a fireplace shop in Littleton, MA about these
    devices (heat extractors) and he said that they have recently been made
    illegal in MA.  He says that there have been problems with the units
    corroding and pumping carbon monoxide and other nasties into the house.
    He no longer sells them.

    Anybody else know anything about the legality of these things?  I also
    had it recommended by the oil service person during an annual tune-up.

    ---Phil

    I sure hope that they are not illegal.....any part of the smoke
    pipe could corrode and be a problem.
    
    Marc H.

     I have a low-tech, lower-cost idea for getting the same result.  
Extend the flue pipe by 10 feet or so on its way from the boiler to the
chimney.  If the basement should actually get too hot or the temperature 
where the flue enters the chimney too low, reduce the amount of extra flue
pipe.  If the temp is still high enough and the basement still cool, add 
more flue.

     Would the building code in Massachusetts prohibit this?  How far 
would I want to keep this flue pipe from the lathe and plaster ceiling -- 
is there a danger of starting a fire?  Are there other practical
considerations?  Can flue pipe be worked easily; are there tools to make 
crimps that will mate with the elbows?  About how much would 15 feet of
flue plus 6 elbows cost?  [All those elbows are to put the extra flue in a
particular area above the boiler, water heater and preheater.]

	    I'm pretty sure that there is a minimum pitch (rise oer run?)
	required for a flue pipe.  If you have any problems, you can leak
	Carbon Monoxide into your house.

					Tim

    A similar concept was used by the Shakers. They had 20 foot stove pipe
    runs to the chimney from the wood stove. They also cleaned them often.
    
    A minimum pitch , in case you get condensate, is around 1/4 inch per
    foot.
    
    Marc H.

>    A similar concept was used by the Shakers. They had 20 foot stove pipe
>    runs to the chimney from the wood stove. They also cleaned them often.
>    
>    A minimum pitch , in case you get condensate, is around 1/4 inch per
>    foot.
    
     Does the pipe slope toward the furnace?

     Are the pipes always screwed together or is a slide fit sufficient?  
That would be easier to take apart to clean.

    The Shakers had the pipe pitched toward the stove...i.e. the stuff went
    into the stove. The pipe was sliped into each section.
    
    Marc H.

    Re: .40
    I think if I were contemplating a long run of flue pipe, I'd screw
    the sections together.  They have to screwed together (legally,
    in Mass.) for a woodstove anyway...I'm not sure about an oil burner.
    The consequences of them falling apart are potentially so serious,
    a little inconvenience at cleaning time seems trivial.

    
    
    I have 3.5 sections of pipe form the stove.  I placed a gage near
    the stove outlet and then where it goes into the flue.  Its close
    to 100' difference.  My wood is dry but I still have to clean the 
    once a month or so.
    
    I would want to place anything in the pipe for that amount of run.
    I think i'd have to clean it once a week!  Just wouldnt feel safe.
    
    The oil burner had very little room between point a and b.  I dont
    see the payback great enought to justify one...
    
    JD
    

    	After seeing the pointer to this note and reading all the replies,
    looks like one of my concerns may have been mentioned (i.e. carbon-
    monoxide leaks.) Cracks/leaks in tubes that run through a flue pipe would 
    be a little different than leaks else where.
    
    	A leak in a tube running through the flue pipe would appear to be worse 
    as you have a fan blowing air through the tubes and away form the furnace
    or stove. A leak in a seam should be less of a problem as you have the draft
    creating a vacuum to suck the stuff out of the house.
    
    	Granted, in neither case do you want to have leaks, but leaks here
    would seem to cause more of a problem. I guess I'd still like to see
    one of these things and check out the construction of them. If they are
    built *sturdy*, easily inspectable for leaks/cracks, and provide a
    decent amount of heat, I may consider one, but only after spending an
    additional $30-40 to install a nearby carbon-monoxide detector.
    
    	Any more comments from people that have them ???
    
    	Ray
    

    Any thoughts in  comparing the new Smith series 8 boilers 
    to a weil-McLain no.68 oil boiler (both with beckett burners)
	Both warrantys are the same both are high efficiency
    	cast iron compact units.
    
    I've been quoted the same price for both systems, to replace and 
    relocate the boiler:  $3300.
    
    This includes is for 2 zones and comes with a 50gallon
    Aero storage tank
    
    

    Do I have these definitions correct?

	Hi Limit = temp. at which the oil burner shuts off

	Lo Limit = temp. below which the circulator won't run
		(keeping boiler water hot enough for tankless coil heating)

	diff     = temp. below Hi Limit at which burner turns on

    ... or do I have the last two mixed up?

    
    Depending on the type of controller you have...
    
    High limit is a safety cut off.
    
    LO may be normal operating max temp. 
    Differential is minus the above or cut in temp.
    
    Pump starts off of house stat.
    
    Fred

    Oil for the Pre-pay is 69.9.  Do you think the oil will go down in
    August or should I buy now?  I know it's a crap shoot, but was just
    looking for some gut feelings before I buy my 1000 gallons.
    
    Tnx,
    Julie
    

    
    I have the same problem with my FHW system that it blows water out the
    relief valve.  THe pressure seems to be going up over 30 PSI when the
    system is running.
    
    I check the relief valve -- as suggested in these notes -- released
    some water from the system, let the pressure go to about 5 PSI, and
    it always fills it back up to about 10-12 PSI. I did this several times
    with, both, the main heating system feed line off and on.  It worked
    the same both times.  I did not have to drain the system with a hose,
    I just use the pressure relief value manual switch and it released the
    water/pressure from the system that way.
    
    Anyhow, I checked the (conventional) expansion tank to see if it was 
    water logged.
    I turned off the main feed (between the boiler and the tank) and then
    tried to drain the tank.  Water just trickled out.  I can't tell if it
    is water logged or not.  I guess I have to drain the whole system and
    then flush out the tank, since I need the other end opened (main feed
    (between the boiler and the tank) to get it all of the water out of the
    tank??
    
    What is the amount of air pressure needed in this tank??  How can I
    tell if it is properly pressurized?? I am not sure where the air valve
    is.  Is it in the main feed, between the boiler and the tank).??  Do
    you just use a compressor to check the air pressure/insure that it is
    the right pressure?? 
    
    I am not really sure on how to test this part out.  Do you drain it, 
    pressurize it at it's right PSI rating and then startup the system and
    see if it gets water logged again ??
    
    
    Any inputs are greatly appreciated??
    
    
    	Thanks,
    
    		Mike
    all to come out of the tank???

    When the guy comes to service my boiler, he hooks a hose on the
    expansion tank, drains it, then lets it fill up - as much as it
    will - with water again.  The air trapped in the tank before he
    starts to refill it is all the air there ever is.

    There may be an air escape valve as part of the valve assembly at the
    bottom of the exp tank. Opening this little petcock thingie allows air
    to enter the exp tank and eventually it drains. Double check your
    outlet valve.
     

    	Maybe there are multiple kinds of tanks ? The way it was explained
    to me, the expansion tank is like a big air bladder. Any excess pressure
    in the system compresses the air bladder (since water doesn't compress).
    
    	If the tank is completely full of water, the air bladder may be
    punctured/ruptured and unable to do its job. So I guess you need to
    better define what "full of water" means because from my understanding,
    if its completely full of water it needs to be replaced.
    
    	In my system, and I assume others, there's a pressure regulator.
    This can be defeated by raising a lever on the top for the purposes of
    bleeding the FHW heating lines. If you don't re-engage it before
    turning the water bleed valve off, you may wind up with too much
    pressure in the system which will compress, and possibly damage, the
    expansion tank. I would assume that this valve could also become faulty
    and overpressurize a system as well.
    
    	Hope this helps.......Ray

>    to me, the expansion tank is like a big air bladder. Any excess pressure
>    in the system compresses the air bladder (since water doesn't compress).


It's not "like" a big air bladder, it is a tank WITH a rubber bladder inside 
that is filled with air.  The purpose is to provide some measure of 
pressure in the system.  Water is allowed to enter the system through a 
regulator and compress the bladder.  This is what maintains the pressure  
--  the bladder.

If your furnace isn't shutting off soon enough you'll build up too much 
pressure and the relief valve will blow off.

When the system cools down the regulator lets in more supply water and the 
whole process starts over again  i.e. the boiler shuts off too late, pops 
of the relief, cools down, refills, ......

re .10:

>When the system cools down the regulator lets in more supply water and the 
>whole process starts over again  i.e. the boiler shuts off too late, pops 
>of the relief, cools down, refills, ......

This is exactly what happens when the bladder ruptures, and therefore no place
for the water to expand to.

re .6:  Another possible cause:  Has anyone recently replaced the circulator
pump?  The house I lived in as a kid had a weird problem:  Circulator pump
failed.  My father replaced it.  But then the relief valve would blow every
once in a while.  Turned out the circulator pump was installed _backwards_,
reversing the flow.  Reversing the pump fixed it.

-Mike

However, when you bleed off the pressure in a system that has a ruptured 
bladder the pressure bleeds off almost immediately.  (Provided the feed 
valve is shut)  If the bladder is not ruptured substantially more water 
comes out and the process takes minutes instead of seconds.  (due to the 
large expansion space created by a functioning bladder.)

LOTS of water on the floor is a sign of a faulty thermistor or incorrectly 
adjusted boiler thermostat. (or a bad feed valve)

Very little water is a sign of a ruptured bladder.

Look at the pressure gauge on the boiler.  Does it go too high just before 
the furnace shuts off?  Does the water temperature rapidly approach and/or 
exceed the boiling point?

I had a problem with a FHW boiler where the overpressure valve
would dump. Although I  changed this device, it turned out to
be the pressure control fill valve that was defective
causing the boiler pressure to be as high as the cold water
in pressure. Seeing the fill valve was set to about
12 lbs (when working) and our well pump shuts off about 30lbs, 
as soon as the burner turned on, the over pressure valve set
to 30lbs would dump. 

                                    30 lbs
                    12 lbs           OVER
   ====>CHECK>=====PRESSURE========PRESSURE=======BOILER
	VALVE	     FILL            VALVE
                     VALVE            ||
				      ||
				      ||

    Question on changing/upgrading a boiler system.
    
    My brother-in-law mentioned to me that he had a furnace company come
    and estimate upgrading his FHW boiler in this house.  The house is
    an 1830 w/field stone walls and pour concrete floor cellar.  The head 
    room seems normal.  The once I was down there, I wasn't aware that I was
    ducking.  In fact, I think it's at least 6 ft.
    
    Anyway, this guy said the boiler had to 5 ft from any wall (ok, he's at
    4ft XXinches, no big deal.  The boiler had to be enclosed (fire wall 
    build around it) and the ceiling covered with fire board.  Just to
    replace the burn/blower AND build all this stuff was $1500.
    
    Oh yeah, get this.  A sprinkler system is now required?
    
    This system needs replacing (whole thing) but it sounds like do a 
    "Blue Ray" upgrade (do they still make them?  That's what we put in 
    the folks FHW boiler) is $400+/- and keep the rest as is for now.
    
    Are these changes required?  Recommended?   What about when I upgrade
    my FHA gas furnace?   If I can find out what's "required" for sheetrock
    in ceiling (5/8th?) and what is a valid "firewall", we can do that
    ourselves.  Can't put in a sprinkler head, we're not PLUMMERS!
    
    Thanks!

    Re: .39
    
    What state?
    Even the town might make a difference; the final authority is
    probably your local fire chief or building inspector.

    re:38

    	Ditto on the last. Check with your building inspector. There are
    safeties built into the system to start with. In the event a fire, there
    is a lead link that will melt and shut off the flow of oil and I believe 
    there is a similar electrical safety which shuts down the power.

    	Right off the bat something doesn't sounds right. I can't imagine
    that you would want to dump water on what essentially could be akin to
    a grease fire (fuel oil). 

    	Ray

    Thinking about it some more...something sounds wrong.  Even with a
    woodstove, the minimum clearance from a combustible surface is 
    usually given as 3'.  5' is a *lot*. 
    

    5' is the distance the boiler has to be away from the oil tank,
    at least thats what its is in Lexington, you can put the boiler
    as close to the wall as servicing permits.

    ooops!  Forgot to tell you where.  He lives in Pepperell, MA.
    
    The "sprinkler system" may have a canister system, dry powder.
    My brother-in-law would probibly call that a sprinkler system.
    Yes, water and oil don't mix.  Safety, like insurance, can be over done.
    He should put firerock on the ceiling.  Won't save the house if the
    thing ignites but will buy him, the wife and kid(s) some time to get
    out!  
    
    He's going for 2ond and 3rd opinions.
    
    Carl
    
    PS - I know of two houses and one trailer which have blown up from gas
    leaks.  1 house and the trailer unoccuptied for a long time and a
    smallish leak built up until ...  One house just had a Propane tank
    installed for hot water - haven't heard the outcome of that law suit.
    Plummer says Bottled gas company to blame.  GasCo blames plumber. 
    Homeowner doesn't collect on any insurance since there's someone to
    sue...   Anyone hear of a house catching fire because of the oil
    burner?  I'm talking modern equipment.  Not a converted coal furnance.

    re: .44
    
    Well, since you asked.  My neighbor's house caught fire because
    of the oil burner.  He was, however, exceedingly careless and
    absent-minded.  He had a leak in the connection to his oil tank
    and did nothing about it, letting the oil drip out onto the floor
    for some significant period of time.  It eventually got to the
    point that it ran across the floor over to the burner and ignited.
    If he'd fixed the problem when he noticed it instead of ignoring
    it (days? weeks?), it wouldn't have been a big deal at all.
    All the safety precautions in the world can't protect against
    idiots.

        Does anyone have any information regarding the quality, reliability
        or problems with the Slant Fin FHW boilers? There is mention of them
        in another note but nothing recent. Home Depot sells them.
    
        How about Dunkirk boilers?
    
        Thanks
    
        John
     

>         Does anyone have any information regarding the quality, reliability
>         or problems with the Slant Fin FHW boilers? There is mention of them
>         in another note but nothing recent. Home Depot sells them.

	i just put in a [natural] gas fired one in early Nov.  It's still
	working good.  Nice and quiet too!

    I put in a Slant Fin Liberty boiler, model L40, in October.  I picked
    up the literature at Home Depot, but ended up getting the boiler from
    Charles Manoog Supply in Worcester (if you call the Slant Fin # listed
    in the literature, they can give you the phone # of the distributor in
    your area, a call to that distributor will get you all of the local
    dealers in your area - I'd call around for a best price/availability,
    you will find pricing varies quite a bit for the same exact boiler)
    
    Very happy with the boiler - very small footprint, relatively quiet,
    very efficient.  Came with a Becket burner...I believe you have 3
    different burner choices. Also, you can have it pre-configured with
    a tankless heater, connections to easily install a tankless heater
    later, or no connections.
    
    Cast iron boiler, stainless steel push nipples, state-of-the-art
    internal design, lifetime guarantee.  I'm very happy with my Slant Fin!

> (if you call the Slant Fin # listed
> in the literature, they can give you the phone # of the distributor in
> your area, a call to that distributor will get you all of the local
> dealers in your area - I'd call around for a best price/availability,
> you will find pricing varies quite a bit for the same exact boiler)

	I tried shopping around too and called Slant/Fin to find out
	who sells the boiler I was looking at.  I already knew the
	distributor was out of Peabody, MA from looking at the pricing
	books home depot has.  The problem I ran into was that either
	none of the distributors would sell directly to a home-owner (worried
	about liability), or that they would, but quoted list price.

	the gas man who came and turned on the gas (new service) was even
	surprised that home depot sold me the thing (i had the feeling
	however he didn't like me in essence taking food out of his babies
	mouths by not hiring a contractor)

    Thanks for the input. I talked to the guy at Home Depot last night.
    Just before I left him, he looked up and down the isle and then said
    that if it wasn't a pressing issue so that I could wait a month or so,
    that I could probably save some money there since HD will probably try
    to clear their inventory at that time.
    
    John
    

> ... that I could probably save some money there since HD will probably try
> to clear their inventory at that time.

	Clear the inventory of boilers?  At the Nashua HD the only boilers
	they have in inventory are the couple of display models.  Any
	boiler purchase there is what's called a "special order", you
	pay up front, then HD relays the order to their distributor.

	What HD does inventory (ie. stock) are replacement parts for
	the most part.  Which HD did you go to?  Maybe it's different
	than the Nashua store?

    I went to the Salem store. They had at least two in additon to the
    display. The fellow said that they keep some inventory in the fall and
    early winter when people start using their heating systems. They rely
    on "special order" the rest of the year since it usually only takes
    a few days for delivery.
    
    John
    

    I'm going to be changing out my present 47 yr-old oil-fired FHW boiler.
    I feel confident enough to do the job myself. Can anyone enlighten me
    about the legal policies reguarding this? Do I have to have it done by
    a pro.? Perhaps someone has done this. Also, does anyone have a 
    testimonial for the System 2000. I'm impressed with the literature I've
    read, but I'd like to know how well it works around here. Thanks.
    							Rich

    	Sounds like a good place to start might be your building inspector.
    Another possibility is to call a local oil-burner outfit and ask if you
    could have a person come out and do a pre-inspection/unit adjustment
    after it's installed. 
    
    	This usually helps carry some weight with the building inspector
    (assuming you need to have it inspected after a swap) as he/she has the 
    benefit of another pro's personal opinion on whether the installation 
    was done properly.
    
    	Ray

    I put in an entire FHW system from scratch last year DIY....and I would
    assume that just replacing the boiler should be quite easy. However,
    given that your boiler is now 45 yrs. old, you may need upgrades to
    meet code in your electrical, water inlet system, flue and chimney
    connections, etc.  
    
    You might consider just letting your current oil dealer install your
    new boiler.  I wouldnt think the charges would be too high, and if your
    going to go the "inspection " route, you could easily get involved in
    plumbing work (which would not be legal for you to do in MA, and thus
    would require a plumber and an inspection), electrical work (you would
    have to know current codes and get an inspection), and the boiler
    inspection (usually done by the Fire dept.) - An oil service person
    could probably install a new boiler in a day or less, and be licensed
    to do all of the work while minimizing inspection hassles. 
    
    Your oil dealer might also be able to get the boiler of your choice
    cheaper than you can.  I was able to get what I wanted wholesale (to
    give you an idea of the margin - I got prices of $2200, $1800, $1650
    and finally got a distributor to give me the actual oil dealer price - 
    $1260!!! (all the same make/model), but it took a lot of calls and finding 
    the right salesperson. Many boiler distributors wont deal with individuals.
    Your oil dealer can probably get any model you choose from a local
    distributor, even if it's not one that they usually install..
    
    If you know what you are doing, and have access to get the boiler you
    want at a good price, then I would arrange a deal with your oil dealer
    to inspect your work for a fee and arrange the inspections through
    them.     
    
                     

    Thanks for the advice so far. I'm going to start having quotes done.
    I'm still interested in determining the overall cost for DIY, though.
    If I can save several hundred, or more, I believe I will take that 
    route. Where, other than "Home Depot"-like stores can I get a 
    oil-fired FHW heating system? I'm still looking for any testimonials
    on the System 2000.  Thanks.
    				Rich

    I've never heard of the System 2000 - who makes it???  As far as
    sources for FHW boilers, look in the Yellow Pages. You want to call
    heating supply distributors - usually found in larger cities (I got
    mine in Worcester - I'll have to look up the name). These
    places operate much like plumbing supply dealers - they cater to
    those in the business but usually will sell retail over the counter.
    The larger the better (hence larger cities) as they will carry
    multiple brands and have greater selections in stock along with cheaper
    pricing

    I guess this is as good a place as any to ask this......
    
    I have been re-doing a bathroom, last night I finished the baseboard
    installation, no problem.  When I went to refill the system, water came
    streaming out through the burner.  I drained everything again, and am
    now back to zero.  Before I call the heating guy, which I am going to
    do BTW, any ideas as to what MAY have happened?  Of course this has to
    occur right when the temps really start to drop :-/.

    More details.....
    
    The boiler is a Peerless, the burner is a Becket and the system is just
    over three years old.  
    
    Brian

>    installation, no problem.  When I went to refill the system, water came
>    streaming out through the burner.  I drained everything again, and am

    Doesn't sound good :-( If water is coming out of the burner it
    sounds like the water jacket is cracked. Was the boiler still hot
    when you refilled it with COLD water?

    Charly

    Wow that was fast!  No, stone cold.  The entire system had been
    drained.

    yep, sounds like a boiler section has either cracked, or the
    gasket between plates has blown out or gone bad. your repair
    guy will probably have to remove the entire boiler section(s)
    and repair !! get it done soon !!

>    gasket between plates has blown out or gone bad. your repair

    Yes, this is another possibility. When the boiler cools and
    contracts, the joints between the sections open up and leak. I've
    heard of minor leaks that have gone away when the boiler heats up
    and expands the sections. But... If you've got water coming out of
    the burner now, that's more then a minor leak. Besides, it's kinda
    hard to fire up the boiler when there's water in the fire box. ;-)

    Charly

    I called the furnace guy and he is stopping by tomorrow evening.  I am
    hoping it is the gasket.  Either way, I have a mess on my hands.  I did
    not check the boiler warranty but with it being only three years old, I
    am not too worried, yet.  
    
    Thanks for the replies folks.
    
    Brian 

    Well it looks as if I have a new boiler to look forward to.  The block
    cracked.  The heating contractor thinks it was run dry or very low. 
    The bright side is that when I get back from my business trip, it will
    be done.  
    
    Brian

> The heating contractor thinks it was run dry or very low. 

	How did this happen?  Had you drained the boiler at the end
	of the last heating season?

    No, I was replacing a section of baseboard and drained the system down. 
    In the couple of days between tasks, I suspect the boiler fired and
    fried :-/.  Yes, I thought I had turned it off and yes I feel like a
    fool.  
    
    Brian

    
    Ouch!!! I don't suppose this is covered by the warranty? :^(
    
    /Charlie

    Well here is the slightly painful ending to a sad story.  The block on
    the boiler was replaced under warranty.  No charge.  I am out $300.00
    for the labor to install it.  It took the guy a long time to get to it
    which I was not happy about but having other accommodations made it
    less inconvenient.  So, a lesson earned ($) is a lesson learned.  
    
    Brian

All of a sudden (maybe 4-5 days ago), our house has a hard time
getting up to temp in the morning. It never had that problem before.

What might be to blame? Circulator pump? How can I troubleshoot it?

Thanks,
Pete

Could be the circulating pump.  Where's the thermostat relative to the 
water flow?  Near the boiler end of the run or at the far and of the run?  
When the thermostat in my house was in the living room (at the end of the 
run) the house was always too warm.  Now it's near the beginning of the run 
and the temperature's a lot easier to control.

If your circulating pump's getting tired you'll only get heat near the 
beginning of the run (unless you have only one zone and no check valves)  
If your thermostat's near the beginning of the run, it'll shut the burner 
down when the room temperature gets high enough.  The rest of the hoses 
(farther down the run) will be noticeably colder.

If your circulating pump quits altogether, you'll still get heat but it'll 
only travel as fast as the cold water can be displaced by the hot water.  
If you have more than one zone the spring on the check valve will prevent 
even this heat transfer from occurring.

I have gas FHW.  If the power goes out I unscrew the thumbscrews on the 
check valves and swap the thermostat over to the original one in my living 
room and my house stays toasty.  The thermostats are on a toggle switch as 
are the circulating pump relays.  Opening the check valves allows the water 
to flow when the boiler comes on and creates a temperature imbalance in the 
system.

There are actually three thermostats in my house.  Two run on 24VDC, 
(downstairs in my den and upstairs in the second zone) the other needs no 
power at all and is the original thermostat that was at the end of the line.
When the power goes out I switch over to this thermostat.

My main zone circulating pump runs via the water temp relay and my second 
zone circulating pump runs off the thermostat.  i.e when the water temp 
drops low enough the main pump will shut down.  However, the second zone 
pump will shut down as soon as the upstairs thermostat trips.

My boiler is an electrician's nightmare but it's efficient and my house 
stays relatively stable, temperature-wise.

> I have gas FHW.  If the power goes out I unscrew the thumbscrews on the 
> check valves and swap the thermostat over to the original one in my living 
> room and my house stays toasty.  The thermostats are on a toggle switch as 

    Why do you swap the thermostat ? There's no power what's the point?

>> I have gas FHW.  If the power goes out I unscrew the thumbscrews on the 
>> check valves and swap the thermostat over to the original one in my living 
>> room and my house stays toasty.  The thermostats are on a toggle switch as 
>
>    Why do you swap the thermostat ? There's no power what's the point?


because....with gas FHW you don't need electricity other than to circulate 
the water.  All of your older thermostats ran straight to the boiler's 
piezoelectric thermostat terminals.  It's the newer thermostats that 
need 24VDC to work but they, too, eventually go to the boiler's thermostat 
connection.  (24VDC thermostats pick a relay that's connected to the boiler's 
piezoelectric terminals)

I simply connect to the boiler direct from my old thermostat.  I could, 
simply, short the two posts on the boiler and get it to fire up if I wanted 
to stay down in the basement but flipping a toggle switch to select the old 
style thermostat works fine.

> >    Why do you swap the thermostat ? There's no power what's the point?
> 
> because....with gas FHW you don't need electricity other than to circulate 

    I understand, but I don't. :-)

    I know that a gas boiler can run on it's own once started and then
    you rely on the thermo cycling of the water to slowwwly circulate
    the water thru the radiators. I thought that you had to start it
    by warming the gas thermo-couple and then lighting the gas with a
    hand held flame source, match, torch, etc. Or maybe by holding a
    thermo-couple override and then lighting the gas.

    But what function does the thermostat provide if the main juice is
    off? Is there some type of self generated power, you mentioned
    piezoelectric, that's run thru the room thermostat to determine
    when to shut down the heat? If this is true, what powers the
    piezo, heat from the furnace?

    Charly

    	I believe the piezo power comes from the pilot light in the furnace
    itself. So long as the pilot is lit, you have power enough to work the
    thermostat.
    
    	This would be for gas. In my oil burner, the oil is ignited from a
    high voltage arc. It's generated by running 120V into a step-up
    transformer. The furnace guy calls it "The Frankenstein test" when he
    tests it, because he uses a screwdriver to draw an arc across the two
    high-voltage leads.
    
    	As in both cases, thermo-syphoning will (slowly) circulate the
    water if you circumvent the back-flow valve. The problem with this is
    that you cannot turn the heat off once you get it. We know, because we
    had one of these valves go bad.
    
    	Ray

It's a thermocouple, not a piezoelectric device.  A thermocouple is a device
that generates (a small amount of) electricity when heated, such as by a gas
flame.  There's one in every gas furnace with a pilot light to shut off the
gas if the pilot goes out.  It's not too much of a stretch to add another
valve, wire a thermostat in series and use the thermocouple to also switch
the gas on/off when the thermostat calls for heat, all without using "any"
electricity.

-Mike

>     	This would be for gas. In my oil burner, the oil is ignited from a
>     high voltage arc. It's generated by running 120V into a step-up
>     transformer. The furnace guy calls it "The Frankenstein test" when he
>     tests it, because he uses a screwdriver to draw an arc across the two
>     high-voltage leads.

	and don't forget the other thing that needs power if you have
	a oil burner in addition to the high voltage arc ... that damn
	noisy blower that atomizes the oil (so it can be burned :-)

    My parents have gas-fired steam heat, with the thermostat running
    off a thermopile (a bunch of thermocouples in series to get the
    voltage up) heated by the pilot light.  It needs no external
    electricity at all, for anything.

        My FHW boiler/burner is having problems the past couple of months.
        The technicians have been scratching their heads and I fear they
        are about to start suggesting replacing various parts ($) in hopes
        that they hit upon the solution.  (that may not really quite be the case,
        but that's my cycnically-budget-oriented perception so far)

        Anyhow, I had the annual cleaning in January and about 3-4 weeks later,
        I came home to find the system off.  (gasket shrunk/cracked/leak mess).
        He replaced the nozzle (& gasket) and all was well.

        For about 2 weeks.  Then I came home one day to find the system off.
        (no leak).  A forced start with the reset button caused a lot of
        soot/smoking. So I shut it off. Technician came and "adjusted electrodes".
        Said the smoke was ok; fuel buildup;  would have cleared up if I left
        it on a little longer.   All was well.

        For about 1 week.   Then I came home one day to find the system off.
        A forced start with the reset button did the trick.  All was well.

        For 4 days.  Last nite I came home one day to find the system off.
        A forced start with the reset button started the burner but there was
        no flame, so I shut it off.   Tech came over and kept trying and it
        eventually started.

        Fortunately, they haven't charged me a penny for any of these after-
        hours visits.  The first one he potentially blamed on the cleaning.
        Subsequent visits are blamed on not having diagnosed/corrected anything.

        But I guess it's time to do something.  But what?  One of our conversations
        was about one of the valves. (pressure valve?).  the PSI runs a bit
        high (20-25psi) sometimes.  Tech says 12-15 is expected.  The valve he's
        referring to was new 14-15 months ago.  One of our conversations was
        about possibly replacing the aquastat.  I since found out that I got a
        new one 2 years ago.

        Any ideas from the *REAL* experts?

        This may or may not be your answer, but - I had _similar_
        symptoms a couple of years ago, which (to cut a long story short)
        turned out to be the oil pump motor going bad. It should be noted
        that the motor was not popping its on-board breaker, which would
        have given the game away easily; it just intermittantly didn't
        run which caused a dead system periodically with soot etc. on
        occasion when I fired it back up again.
        
        Andy
        

    	First, let me say that I'm not an expert. With that said, I had a
    very similar problem. You may be able to assist in the trouble-shooting
    by helping with the isolation.
    
    	There is a furnace control module and a burner control module. The
    furnace control module takes pretty much all of the inputs (boiler
    temp., and thermostats) and determines when the burner has to be lit. 
    
    	If the boiler is up to temp, then just the circulating pumps turn on 
    if there's a call for heat, until the boiler temp drops below the low 
    setting on the furnace control module. When this happens, it enables the 
    burner to light by passing 120V to the burner control module. On my 
    Weil-Mclean boiler and Beckett burner, these leads are labeled B1 and B2 
    on the module. If you know the burner should be lighting and you have 120V 
    on these leads, you've helped isolate the problem somewhat.
    
    	The burner control module has inputs from something called the cad
    cell. The cad cell monitors that the burner is trying to light (I
    believe it's looking to see the arc). There is a bimetalic strip which
    heats up when the burner lights. If it doesn't open a contact within so
    many seconds (~30 ?), a safety shutoff shuts down the power to the 
    burner.
    
    	In your case, it could be a dead spot in the motor (they can test
    for this), the arc isn't happening (they can test this too), a bad cad 
    cell (yet another test), the bimetallic strip is stuck shut (unlikely)
    or, if you're getting 120v from the furnace control to the burner control 
    module, it could be the burner control module itself. The major component 
    on the burner module is a relay, and what I suspect went bad in my case. 
    It was an $89 part, and we haven't had the problem since (couple of months 
    now).
    
    	Hope all this helps. Good luck......Ray

    "replacing the aquastat."  Been there, done that.  In my case, it's
    about the most expensive part in the furnace, so they cleaned and
    adjusted electodes, replaced the (whatever that box with the reset
    button is called), and finally the aquastat.  That ended the problem,
    although I never learned the cause.
    
    Same symptoms as you describe, no heat and hot water at various
    times...
    
    Mark

Thanks all.  I will now be much better informed and prepared
for what's coming up.

Wendy

Hi,

I have a question about the radiators in my house (it's not my house but
the landlord is not mechanically inclined at all).  Each room downstairs
has a radiator in it, and the upstairs has baseboards (I think). 
Throughout this winter, the heat worked just fine.  The living room
radiator provided the most heat of all the radiators, probably because it
was the largest.  The one in my bedroom was adequate, but much less
heat-producing than the one in the living room.

Last night, the living room was quite cold when I went to sleep.  My room
was quite warm, which isn't usually the case.  I checked both radiators and
it appeared as if no hot water was flowing through the big living room
radiator, and more water than usual was flowing through my radiator,
causing a cold living room and an overly hot bedroom.  The living room
radiator was only slightly warm, not the hot-to-the-touch it usually is. 
The valve was wide open, and the heat was on.  The thermostat is in the
same room as the non-working radiator, so the heat was probably firing all
night.  In the morning, the living room was still cold, and my room was
still hot.

My question is, could air in the pipes be causing constricted flow?   There
are bleeder valves on all the radiators, but I don't believe we bled them
before the winter.  If bleeding is necessary, how long should I keep the
bleeder valve open while bleeding the air?   If I bleed a quart or 2 of
water, does this get replaced with fresh water from the burner?  Also, are
radiators connected "in parallel" (to make an electrical analogy), so if
one gets blocked the others don't suffer?

Thanks in advance, I'm new to radiator diagnosis,

adam

    Bleed air only until water starts coming out, then shut the 
    bleeder valve.
    
    I wouldn't think trapped air could cause the problem you 
    describe, but who knows.  
    

> I wouldn't think trapped air could cause the problem you 
> describe, but who knows.  

	Trapped air if not bleed can most definitly cause the problem.
	However I only have this problem when I've drained the system
	and after refilling I need to bleed it.  I've never had it
	flowing and then had it stop.  However if there was trapped
	air to begin with, and some more got in (or a or enough
	bubble(s) worked their way to a vertical bend) maybe that
	could of caused it ....

	This last time I refilled (this time I only had to refill a
	zone, the previous time I installed full port ball valves
	so I can finally drain just a single zone without having to
	do the whole system :-), it was because I was rerouting a zone
	and introduced a new vertical bend (ie. another high spot)
	so I needed to plumb in another bleeding location.  Instead
	of putting in a manual bleeder, I had picked up a new trick
	from someone who does lots of FHW system work... I put in
	one of those automatic air vents that previously I had only
	seen used on the top side of the main air purger.  The
	thing works great!  The next time I end up having to drain
	a zone I'm going to replace the old manual ones with more
	of these (in the places where they fit, since they obviously
	have a higher profile).

re:      <<< Note 82.218 by VAXCPU::michaud "Jeff Michaud - ObjectBroker" >>>
>                           -< Automatic air purgers >-
>
>	Trapped air if not bleed can most definitly cause the problem.
>	However I only have this problem when I've drained the system
>	and after refilling I need to bleed it.  I've never had it

I take it from this comment that a FHW system is closed, that is, the same
water gets circulated indefinitely?  Why would refilling be necessary?

We have a tankless hot water system that provides hot water for the
radiators and the showers/sinks, if that adds any useful info.

I would imagine if there was some blockage in the pipes it would be
difficult to diagnose.

thanks,

adam

> I take it from this comment that a FHW system is closed, that is, the same
> water gets circulated indefinitely?  Why would refilling be necessary?

    It is a closed system but... 

    When first filled or refilled, the water contains trapped gases
    that need to be eliminated.

    Also, the heating and cooling process will causes that water to
    "break down" and release more gases that need to be purged.

    In both cases, the air needs to be eliminated and a small amount
    of fresh water added. The fill valve of a FHW system is a pressure
    valve that will automatically let a little water in when the
    pressure drops below a certain thresh hold. Usually around 18-22
    pounds.

    Charly

    	re:219
    
    	Yes, it's typically a closed system (I can't think of any
    exceptions). A blocked pipe is easy to diagnose, but finding
    *where* the blockage is can be difficult. Other than a frozen pipe, I
    would expect blockages to be *very* rare.
    
    	Ray