Conference 7.286::home_work

I'm not sure if yours is set up like mine, and I don't know the technical
names of the parts of the assembly, but here goes:

I had exactly the same problem after a couple of years in my house.  There
is a sliding plunger attached to a couple of rods, connected to the lever
that opens and shuts the drain.  There is a screw adjustment on the lowest
rod for just this type of situation.  Remove the plate that holds the drain
lever, pull the assembly out, and it should be easy to figure out how to
adjust it.

-db

If all else fails, get one of those rubbermaid or whatever disks and stick it
over the drain after closing it and before adding the water. It is a cheap easy
fix for problems like this. 

THANKS! THAT SHOULD DO IT!

I have an 80-year-old enamel bathtub. There is a green stain running
down the front from where the faucets have dripped onto the overflow
fixture down to the drain. I have no idea how long the stain has
been there. My guess is that there is an impurity in the water that
reacted with the metal in the fixture; maybe the fixture has nothing
to do with it. The town water has algae in the summer and is hard
year round. I have tried Tilex; no luck. I don't want to use Ajax
because it will ruin the finish. Any suggestions? Do you think
oxalic acid would work? I know it takes out some kinds of stains in
bathtubs. 
I don't want to put a lot of money into this. The landlord has 
hinted he might replace it and that's what I want, but he won't do
it just because of a cosmetic problem like this.

Remember that the Statue of Liberty is GREEN, right?  Does her 
complexion coloring match that of your bathtub?  Then I bet your 
water has COPPER in it; most water does; most PLUMBING does, too!

Anyway, what to do now?  I recommend two options, to be tried SEPARATELY.  
WARNING: do not mix vinegar acid with chlorine substances: ~ MUSTARD GAS.

(1) Use Comet, the abrasive cleanser with the chlorine bleach.  Wet 
the stained surface, apply the Comet, do not scrub, just let it rest.  
The chlorine may draw out the stain.  Then rinse.  Two applications 
may be appropriate.  This also works well for Formica counter tops. 

(2) Use straight household vinegar.  Just wet the stained
surface.  You can use cornstarch to make a paste to hold the
vinegar to a vertical surface.  The acetic acid may dissolve the
calcium deposits, which may release the copper stain. 

  I tried the vinegar and it worked. Thank you for your help.

    
    If anyone is thinking of having their bathtub re-finished/painted
    I would suggest they go ahead and do it!!I just had mine done in
    my new/old house....I changed the hopper and sink to a light grey
    and had this UGLY pinkish-beige tub that I was going to hide with
    shower curtains or something...but,my girlfriends brother-in-law
    suggested I swap the kitchen cabinets I ripped out to his brother-
    in-law for the tub re-finisning job!!
    I had him match the grey as close as possible and it looks like
    I put in a new tub.There are some rules to follow during the first
    30 days,(real easy) and the finish will last 10 years,so he says.
    I don't think I'll be there that long,but again it looks GREAT!!!
    (of course,next to what I had...anything is an improvement)!!
    
    Tony....  

we painted our tub a few years back - and discovered
1) you can't use scouring pads - it tears the paint
2) you have to paint the whole thing - or it peels from the top down

can anyone suggest a solvent for this (epoxy) paint - would like to 
strip whats left and take a fresh shot at it (its a fiberglas tub)
			thanx	/j

    
    I suggest you call Bath Tub Genie out of Marlboro!  We had our 75
    year old tub refinished by them.  They did a great job.  We had
    no enamel left whatsoever, and there were meny rust/iron stains.
    
    It cost about $260. but it was well worth the money
    \
    pam
    

    re .0
    Who did your work for you?
    Or did you DIY?
    
    
    			herb

    Re -1...I had a friend do it.I had something he wanted,so we traded
    his services for it.However,he told me the job runs around $175.(It
    must cost about $100 for the masking tape :-) ).He also said they
    will do a hopper ....if it not connected as the coating ALWAYS peels
    due to the cold water (moisture).I know he would be interested doing
    more work,so if anyone is interested I will post his name and number.
    BTW,my tub was NOT fiberglas.The material (paint) they use is very
    close to the porcelain finish on a tub.It takes about an 1 1/2 to
    re-grout and mask off everthing......the finish is stripped/prepped
    then a primer coat is applied and then 3 coats finish coating is
    applied.You can't enter for 6 hours VERY important... this is done
    to eliminate as much dust as possible,then you can't use for 72
    hours,then for the first 30 days nothing can be put on the tub as
    it will dent....it takes that long to completely cure.Like I said
    in .0 I'm very satisfied,but I'm easy too!!!
    
    Tony....

    I've heard from a few people that bath resurfacing doesn't work
    over the long-term.  One of these people that most strongly objects
    to resurfacing is the owner of Besco, an antique and reproduction
    plumbing supply house in Boston.  He refuses to get tubs resufaced
    and uses a lye-based liquid to get rust spots off of old tubs.
    
    Since I have an old claw-foot that I'd LOVE to use in an attic bathroom
    I'm considering, do you all know something I don't?  How long have
    you had your resurfaced tubs?  Anyone out there have a resurfaced
    tub for 3 or more years without seeing paint bubble or chip?
    
    Thanks,
    Bonnie
    
    

    I had a bath tub and surrounding tile wall done, then put 4-5 years
    use into it before selling the house. I was very pleased with the
    durability. We had three little ones running around, and they would
    ocaisionally pound on the side of the tub with a very hard object
    (spoon edge, for example), and the coating was nicked in that location.
    There were never any bubbling or cracking problems. We had a small
    peeled spot in the middle of the soap dish (built in to the tile
    wall with a handle on it), but the guy told us that might happen
    because he couldn't get in there with his sander to rough up the
    surface for good bonding. I'd do it again if I was redoing an old
    bathroom again - used Bath Genie mentioned earlier.

re: .4
whats a hopper?

    Tony:
    
    Please post the name and nr. of your friend who does tubs.
    
    
    
    				thnx
    				herb

    
    The name and number of the guy I used is
    
      BOB STICKNEY    663-9215
    
    BTW,I'm not sure if I mentioned this,but I live in Shrewsbury
    and if you want to take a look at his work give me a call.
    842-5286 I have an answer machine when I'm not home,so leave
    a message.DTN is 297-5211
    
    Tony....
    

    I have a fiberglass, one piece tub/shower unit and the bottom seems
    to be rather bouncy. I was thinking about ways to firm up the bottom
    and had an idea that maybe someone out ther has already tried.
     I don't want to rip out half my sheetrock sidewall to access the
    bottom of the tub but thought of drilling a easily repairable 1"
    hole to insert the application tub of one of those foam in a can
    expandable materials. I never used the stuff before and wondered
    if I can skirt it under the tub, will it expand into a firm base
    which would solve the bouncy problem? Also can you somehow extend
    the application tube on these foam-in-a-can units?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    
    I don't think the foaming insulation will have enough compressive
    strength to support a tubful of water/person. And it doesn't bounce
    back. Seems like after a few baths, you'll have a lot of compressed
    foam and a gap equal to the flex of the tub bottom.

      I would imagine that it would take an awful lot of cans to fill
    that area. That foam will fill every crack and crevice it can find
    and will probably find its way up the walls .... no?

    
    Check out notes 102.6 and 102.9, which talk about flex in these
    types of units ....
    
    Phil
    

    I also have a one piece fiberglass tub/shower unit manufactured by Lasco
    Industries. When my house was purchased it was only totally finished
    on the first floor except the second floor did have a complete
    bathroom, well at least when you were in it with the door closed.
    From the outside all the studs showed exposing the electrical and
    plumbing and the backside of the tub/shower unit. The tub bottom
    is constructed with a series of small boards (~1 X 6 pine) embedded
    within the fiberglass material which I assume make for a more rigid
    bottom. There is approx. 3/4"-1" spacing between the boards under the 
    bottom of the tub and the plywood floor. I required a represenative
    from Lasco to come to my home and repair a small crack on the tub
    side, something the plasterer left behind when he stepped all over the 
    tub edge while plastering the ceiling. Anyway... I too was concerned 
    with the bounce as slight as it was and asked the rep if it would help 
    if I slid a couple of 1 X's under the tub to stiften it. He indicated
    that the installation was performed properly and it probably wouldn't 
    hurt, placing boards under the tub floor but it really wasn't
    required. Sooooo.... I guess unless the whole family wants to shower
    at the same time......you needn't care about adding any additional
    support.  

    Mark
    
    n.b. - My only other concern with the unit was the grime which builds
           up on the surface over time. It's tough keeping the unit
           looking clean without keeping after it quite often. My plumber
           told me about this cleaner called "Gel Gloss" which can be
           purchased at most plumber supply houses and a few select
           hardware stores. The stuff works great on the fiberglass
           and seems to last a bit longer than waxing which is what
           the tub manufacturer recommends!  

    I think the foam idea might work.  Per square inch the stuff certainly
    doesn't have much compressive strength, but I think there's a good
    chance the tub bottom would distribute the load enough so the foam
    wouldn't just squash down.  My impression is, you're not planning
    to try to fill the *entire* cavity, just put foam under the bottom
    of the tub.  I think the idea has at least a sporting chance of 
    working.  
    Putting some wood shims of the proper thickness under the tub is
    certainly the best bet, but short of creating major damage you
    probably can'd do that....
    
    Steve

    
    
          two things I would bear in mind if you are going to use foam:
    
    Can you go in to the cavity through the side of the cladding, this
    may be a little tidier than through the unit.
     
    Also: if the idea does not come off, you are going to have One Hell
    Of A Job getting the damn stuff out again to put something in its
    place.
    
           just a thought,
                  Chris H

    Rather than drilling a hole in the bottom of the tub, you might
    be able to access the bottom by removing either the drain or the
    diverter cover and using an extended tube for the foam application.
    
    If your tub is on the first floor [don't remember if you mentioned
    this or not] sometimes the plumbers will have cut a gaping hole
    in the drain area itself that you might be able to gain access from.
    
    Charlie

I just assumed that he would cut a hole in the sheetrock surrounding the tub.
How would you go about repairing a hole in the tub itself?

Paul

    I'm facing a similar situation, and in the course of doing other
    remodeling plan on fixing this as well. My experience with the foam
    is that it defnitely will not work, for the reasons (compressing,
    inability to get enough in, inability to fill every crevice) given
    by others.  Most important is the concern over what to do next if
    you do use the foam and it doesn't work: you're in deep sneakers.
     Also, I would never do anything to the tub itself - it will be
    impossible to repair and make watertight.
    
    So, what do I plan to do?  Part of my other remodeling plans call
    to take out the sheetrock in the ceiling of the room below.  this
    will expose the underside of the underlayment under the tub (if
    the builder even bothered to put underlayment under the tub.  Either
    way, I can easily gain access to the areas where the tub rests,
    and insert shimming.  Due to the weight of water and people on a
    concentrated area, I would 1-by-s cut to 6" lengths rather than
    the usual thinner shimming, so that they stay in place forever.
    An alternative to shimming is to cut 2 2x4s into 18-24" lengths,
    and another into 14" (if you have joists on 16" centers), and build
    bridging which can then be nailed into place between the joists
    to provide lateral support (depends on which way your tub runs relative
    to the joists).
    
    Final warning - when putting in the shims, be very careful about
    their thickness, and plane them if necessary to reduce their thickness
    to just a hair greater than the open space between the tub and the
    support you want to fill.  Don't overcompensate and raise the bottom
    of the tub higher than what it is when empty, or you will end up
    with the reverse problem - humps in the tub bottom - which may
    damage/crack the tub.
    
    -reed
    

    In recent new construction I've seen, the builder has poured in
    a big glop of concrete before installing the unit.  This makes the
    space between the unit bottom and underlayment solid, however, it
    seems to me that in a retro-fit application, this technique might
    be a real pain.  
    
    Bill
    

    I installed one of these fibreglass units about 9 years ago nowand
    had a leak. Second floor bathroom, it dampened the kitchen ceiling
    until I ripped out a hole to see where the leak was. Couldn't find
    a leak for love nor money, ran the water and looked from below and
    no drip.......Didn't get a leak until I put weight in the shower
    unit and the drain stayed the same height but the shower floor
    compressed slightly, then a leak developed at the drain joint.
    (anyone care to guess how long that took to find????? MOre than
    a few minutes is a good guess, not not long enough!)
    
    Solution was to drill a series of holes, 1/4 " all around the bottom
    of the shower stall, and use Phenoseal glue/sealer to fill the area.
    Squirt in until it oozed out 2-3 other holes, then seal then off
    and start filling another empty hole adjacent to the full holes.
    Took about 2 tubes to add 1/4" deep pool of this stuff under shower,
    let stand for 2 dasy and it never dripped again.
    
    Don't tell me about removing the shower years from now. It either
    is gonna be some other person's headache or I'll use a sawzall and
    drop the whole damned affair into the kitchen. The unit was a horror
    show to get upstairs into the bathroom originally, it ain't coming
    out that way again! 8^)

    What ever happened to the plaster of paris.  They put it under shower
    stalls will that work under a tub?

When we moved in 5 years ago, one defect we accepted was the bathtub.  
Seems the bottom had previously cracked, and the owners had only the 
bottom replaced.  So the bottom was a bit dull, and the ring about the 
bottom where the new bottom was attached to the old tub was very dull.
(this is all fiberglas)

So, following some (poor) advice, we went out and got some epoxy tub 
paint for about $9, and repainted the tub bottom, and since we had 
some extra, painted up the sides.  

Funny thing about the paint.  It absorbs (green) mineral stains, and 
rips apart very nicely when you take steel wool to clean it.  The 
upper sides tear and peel quite well too. So, after five years, we
now have a green-stained bottom, and serrated and peeling sides. 

			H	E	L	P

What can I do now to restore this to something reasonable without 
spending a mint?   All suggestions appreciated.

    MY HUSBAND IS A PLUMBER IN STOW (A&C, INC), ONE OF THE GUYS WHO
    USED TO WORK THERE REPAIRS TUBS (CHEAPLY).  THE GUY IS AN OLDER
    FELLOW WHO LIVES IN HUDSON.  HIS NAME IS BOB TURNER (I BELIEVE
    EX-COP/TOWN OFFICIAL.)  I UNDERSTAND HE DOES A FANTASTIC JOB REPAIRING
    SHOWER AND TUB STALLS, ETC.  ]
    
    CAN'T HURT TO GIVE A CALL.
    
    DENISE
    
    

    If I were you I would have a fiber-glass repair place come in and
    fix it. Pay now or pay later. I had one come in and repair nicks
    and scratched in our tub and he was gone in less than an hour. That
    was last year and it cost $50. Thgere is one in Leominster.
                                                                   
     Ed

I think I explained myself badly:  The fiberglas itself is fat and
happy.  its the *damn* paint.  On the sides - it has peeled many
places, and on the bottom, it has happily absorbed many stains. I
could clean it up and repaint it - but what do I do at the edges of
the current paint - and where do I get a better type of paint? thanx/j

    Fiberglass or preformed tub wall liners.
    
    We have a 13 year old bath room that needs the tile height added
    to keep water from splashing on the walls above the tile line when
    our 16 yearold nephew is showering there. 
    
    We want to use these new three piece, install over exsisting ceramic
    tile type sold by Sears for $79 to $129. Has anyone installed this
    type of tub liners?
    
    Any pro/con about them?
    
    /cal hoe

    I installed one over sheetrock; worked fine.  I was a little stingy
    on the glue so it buckled a little (not obvious to anyone except
    me who knew where to look!) so I suggest gooping it up real well
    when you install it.  After all, the adhesive is cheap!
    Buy a good-quality one; it will be heavier, and probably stand up
    better.  
    I don't know about intalling one over tile.  I can't think of any
    problems offhand.
    Calk the top edge well so the water doesn't have a chance to get
    down in back of it.

	The fiberglass liners that have the pebbled texture are 
	*extremely* hard to clean if allowed to get the least bit 
	dirty (like when you buy a house from a family of pigs).  
	If you are not meticulous housekeepers, stay away from a 
	textured surface on these things.

Frank

    How do you finish the edges on these wall liners??     What about
    the color match.  Does it look funie if the tub and walls are not
    the exact same color??
    
    thanks,
    
    ..bill
    

    We put a five piece enclosure in our house and I love it.  As far
    as putting over tile, the only thing I would worry about is how
    well the tiles are stuck to the walls.  As mentioned earlier, use
    plenty of adhesive and caulk the edges.  White will go with anything.
    One thing to remember, some of them come with a little bar over
    the built in soap dish to hang face cloths on.  People tend to use
    these as handles when trying to get up after taking a bath.  This
    could either pull the panel away from the wall, or worse than that,
    break off and cause an injury.
    
    chris d.

I put in a 3-piece fiberglas unit into our bathroom and can say it's the 
best move you can make to ensure a long lasting tub area. As a 
suggestion, look for the best 3-piecer you can find. The fewer the seams 
the better...no place for water to leak in behind and no place for 
mold/mildew to begin growing.

BTW...we got ours from Montgomery_wards on sale for about $125 two years 
ago.

Oh, one more thing...although the hand-holds are nice touches, they can 
be quite annoying...my father-in-law installed one that has handholds 
and niches to put soap, etc. and with the intrusion thay make into the 
tub area, you find yourself always brushing up against a cold, wet 
shower curtain...

    Regarding keeping them clean.  I received the reccommendation to
    clean the inside once and then coat it with turtle wax.  That way
    anything on top of it comes off easy.  (I have not tried this 
    because I don't own one).

    re .0
    
    Have you considered putting in a few additional courses of tile?
    It was necessary to retile the tub area of our bath room several
    years ago shortly after we bought the house. (loose tiles, holes
    in the wall, wet, carpenter ants, the whole bit)
    
    It was impossible to find tile to match the rest of the bathroom
    -a pale blue- so we bought white tiles speckled with blue for the
    tub enclosure.  Where the two different colors come together we put
    in a course of *black* tile. We also topped of the shower enclosure
    with a course of black tiles. It looks very nice, and saved hundreds
    of dollars and many hours from retiling the entire bathroom.
    
    				herb
    

Well - I'm halfway there....One day, after cleaning the (epoxy 
painted) tub, i took a razor blade to it, and discovered that the 
paint scraped off fairly easily, for a while.  Apparently, some 
combination of cleansers I used softened the paint, but I've been 
unable to recreate it.

What would you use to soften epoxy paint prior to scraping?

    
    
    try celulose thinners or acetone
    
            Chris H

    I have a question about fiberglass tubs - can bleach be used to
    clean them safely and effectively?
    
    If not, what will clean them well?  I don't think the scrub stuff
    really does the job.
    
    Thanks!

    GEL GLOSS is a product specifically developed for fiberglass and
    it works very well. You can buy it at many plumbing stores for about
    $5, or some discount places for  about $2.50. I have heard that
    Spags sells it for less than $2.50, if you are willing and able
    to shop there.
    
    Good luck
    VCS
    
    

    re .2 Gel Gloss
    
    Spag's has it for $1.99.  I've seen it a Somerville lumber for over
    $4.00.

    We had a stain on the bottom of our white fiberglass tub from a
    colored skid mat. Half a tub of warm water and a pint of bleach
    left overnight took it right out, also brightened the white skid
    mat we now use, and had no apparent effect on the septic tank.

    re: .5  "...no apparent effect on the septic tank."
    
    Bleach kills the bacteria that makes your septic tank break down
    solids.  I would not recommend this method if you have a septic
    tank.
    
    Elaine
    

    re .6
    
    I have used bleach many times and have had no problems in
    15 years with a 1000 gal septic tank.  I only use it
    sporadically and never regularly.
    
    Bleach will be neutralized (used up) by reaction with many
    organic compounds. Septic tanks are large and I don't believe
    that a single, modest dose can possibly sterilize 1000 gallons
    of the type of stuff found in such places.  Surviving critters
    can reproduce very quickly.
    
    I restrict this opinion to occasional uses, If you bleach
    diapers every day things might be different.
    
    - gerry

    
    Agree with .6 - We use bleach to whiten the tub and for the occasional
    load of dirty white socks, and have never had a problem with the
    septic tank.

    Since everyone's defination of "occasional" is different, and the
    people who build and install these things say don't use bleach, I
    would tend to stay away from the stuff.
    John

This isn't a DIY question - I definitely want someone else to do it!

I have two old-fashioned, claw foot bathtubs that need to have their
outsides repainted but I haven't found anyone to do that work.  The
places I've called (like Bath Genie, Marlboro) just do refinishing
and they want big bucks to do inside and outside.  I don't need the
inside refinished and all I want on the outside is paint, not shiny
porcelain.  Stripping off the old paint is the part I'm avoiding --
any leads?  I'd prefer to have someone do the stripping and repainting,
although just the stripping would also be acceptable.  

I'll even do the delivery and pickup myself, except for the unloading 
part.  Anywhere in the southern NH/northern MA area is fine, and I'll
consider driving even further as I become more desperate.

Having spent only $75 for one of the tubs I really can't see spending
$550 for the refinishing -- ouch!!!


Jan   who_may_someday_have_the_Victorian_bathroom_she_wants

    I would check with auto body shops.  Find one who has sandblasting
    capability to remove the old paint.  Given that their spray paint
    work for automobiles is usually high quality, I would speculate
    that the paint job they could do for you would be limited only by
    your imagination.
    
    Randy
    

    I am completely remodeling a very small bath room...about 5' by
    6'.  I was all set to order a standard size (60"x30"x14") Standard
    American tub when I realized I don't have 30" (width) to work with
    before hitting the side of the toilet.
    
    Here's my question:
    
    	Does anyone know anything about the availability of narrower
    bath tubs?  The only info I have so far is that several manufacturers
    do NOT have narrower tubs available unless you want cast iron. 
    I am looking for PVC or Fiberglass for cost and weight (installing
    myself) reasons.  However, the places I have talked to so far don't 
    sell American Standard.
    
    OR:
    
    	Right now I have an old fashioned free standing, four legged
    tub.  Does anyone know anything about enclosures that can be used
    to surround such a tub?  Then I could go ahead and tile or buy a
    tub surround to enclose the tub area as planned and still use my
    existing tub which is only about 26" wide.

    How about building a frame around the existing tub, then cover the
    frame with tile to match the tile on the wall ?  Or maybe cover
    around the sides of the tub with some wood to match the design of
    the bathroom ?
    
    
    Mark
    

    Yup,  a frame for around the tub is what I am starting to think
    about.  After boxing it in, i should be pretty much free to do what
    I want to finish it off, whether it be tile, a tub surround, or
    just a shower curtain all the way around like I have now for the
    free standing tub.
    
    I've talked with more places, and there just doesn't seem to be
    ANY tubs narrower than 30".  The negative aspect of using the current
    tub is that it is old and really needs some cleanup work or it will
    stand out like a sore thumb in a remodeled bathroom.  It sounds
    (according to other notes) like that will be a non-trivial project
    all by itself (which I was not planning on).
    
    I don't know.....I was all set to order my new tub.  This hitch
    has thrown me off.  I have to step back momentarily and re-think
    what my options are.  I could actually fit a new 30" wide tub in
    the space I have, but it would practically be hitting the toilet
    bowl.  
    
    I could always blow out the outside wall of the bathroom, that would
    give me plenty of room!
    
    		Ben

    I've heard that these companies that re-finish tubs do a good job.
    Is that a possibility?
    

    YES, IT IS A POSSIBILITY NOW THAT I REFINISH THE TUB AND GO WITH
    AN OLD FASHIONED LOOK IN MY BATHROOM AS OPPOSED TO A MODERN LOOK.
    
    I'VE HEARD VARIOUS COST ESTIMATES FROM 150 TO 500 DOLLARS.  IF I
    CAN GET THE TUB REDONE FOR A REASONABLE PRICE, THAT MIGHT BE THE
    ROUTE I TAKE.
    
    		BEN

    if you do have the tub done please let us know the results.

    We have mineral stains in our tub at home. Can anyone recommend a product
    that I can either make myself or purchase that will remove them?

    Thx. - Ed

    Use LIME AWAY it works very well on most stains esp those from hard
    water but be sure to use gloves or it will eat at the skin.
    
    -j
    

Scrub Free does a good job, but be sure to use it in a well-ventilated 
area (they ought to have a warning label on it!)

    Spag's (of course!) and some plumbing supply places sell some stuff
    called Iron-Out, which works very well if the stains are from iron.
    It would probably work on other kinds of mineral stains too.  
    (Side note: Iron-Out is the best toilet bowl cleaner I've ever seen.)

re: -.2

I use tang in my dishwasher, but could never get it to do anything but 
make a mess on my tub - how do you use it?

Just a sidelight, but the owner's manual for our Sears D/W make mention 
of removing yellow stains by using a helping of 'citric acid crystals' 
which they claim are available from you local druggist.

Still looking...

    re: .7 
    
    Try your high school chem lab.

    I get a green stain from the water. Is this Minerals? I thought
    it might be salt. Would Tang work on this also?  The inside of the
    dishwasher is also stained a green color.

    re: .9
    It sounds as though you are getting copper stains from your copper
    pipes, probably caused by your water being slightly acidic.
    I can't say if Tang would do the trick, but it wouldn't cost much
    to give it a try....

    Re last few
    
    If you check the ingredients list for Tang, you'll find that it
    is primarily citric acid crystals.  A lot cheaper than buying the
    stuff at the drug store.
    
    We just load up the detergent cups and run the dishwasher empty.
    
    pbm
    

    Not quite mineral stains BUT  you know that soapy film??? no matter
    how thick is easily removed with Mineral Spirits...Realy a suprise
    to me but it works GREAT.
    
                                     Tom

	Even with an automatic back-flushing soft-water conditioning
	filter system on my well water, i still get mineral stains
	on the tub, toilet and dishwasher - though not as badly as
	before the filter.

	desperate to clean up the dishwasher stain, i tryed running
	Tang thru a full cycle. I was impressed. the dishwasher
	is white again. 

	i didn't get as good a result from using it in the tub like
	a scouring powder. It's a fiberglass unit and it may already
	be permanently beyond hope but i think i'll draw up a Tang
	bath and let it soak awhile. 

	bob

    	I am in the process of installing a new tub surround unit and
    ran into a small problem. I am having trouble getting the chrome
    spout off. I believe it should screw off the copper pipe, but it
    seems to be rusted or corroded on and will not budge easily. Any
    suggestions or hints on getting it off without breaking or
    damaging the copper water supply plumbing? If I have to I will 
    apply a big wrench, see what gives first and repair the damages,
    but I'd rather not take this approach for obvious reasons.
    
                                 Thanks Wayne
    

    
    
    	It really should not matter if you ruin the pipe that attaches
    to the spout. It should be about a 5" pipe that is threaded on both
    ends and should be easy to replace. I would put a pipe wrench on 
    the spout and make it come off !
    		
    	-Steve-
    

    
    Caution!!!! Sometimes "Putting the wrench to it" may end up causing
    more headaches than you can to imagine.
    
    Some history is needed to fully assess your situation, like how
    old is the plumbing etc..
    
    I'll make assumptions that it's more than 10 yrs. old since you
    are changing the surround. The little nipple that goes from the
    watter supply to the spout is usually soldered, not threaded to
    the supply pipe, then as you mentioned, the exterior spout is threaded
    into the nipple. HOWEVER, I've seen many cases where the nipple
    is threaded at both ends. If this is the case, and the threads going
    to the supply pipe strip out, then you will need to fix that pipe.
    You also run the risk of cracking the joint where the nipple and
    supply pipe meet and causing a slow leak that won't be apparent
    until well after your brand new surround is installed.
    
    What I would do is to heat the spout and GENTLY work it with your
    big wrench. If it's corrosion, the heat will loosen it and
    then the spout will come off without damaging anything else.
    You should also check under the spout to see if there's any sort
    of locking pin that prevents it from spinning.
    
    As for -1, I'd take his advice only if he would commit to pay for
    the consequences.....
    
    Good luck
    
    JMB
    

    Instead of using a wrench to get the spout off try puting a piece
    of wood such as the handle of a hammer in the spout to use as a
    lever to turn the spout.  That's what I did with mine and it came
    off quite easily, but my plumbing isn't very old either.  Just a
    suggestion to avoid wrench marks.

    
    	This maybe too obvious to mention in such a knowledgeable
    community, but if something that is screwed/rusted on real tight
    and won't budge, it sometimes helps to try tightening it first.
    The reasons seem to be:-
    i)	It may in fact be a left handed thread where you least expect
    	it, not saying that is the case here.
    ii)	It has the effect of helping to break some of the micro bonds.
    	Since nothing is totally rigid (yeah, *NOTHING*) flexing in
    	the opposite direction distributes the forces differently and
    	this can actually loosen it up just enough.
    
	Reg
    

    I got it off over the weekend, thanks for all the suggestions.
    I sprayed it with penetrating oil for a couple of days, and was
    able to get it off without too much trouble. I'm not sure if the
    penatrating oil helped or if I was just too nervous about breaking
    the plumbing and didn't apply enough force when I first tried to
    get it off. Again, thanks for the suggestions.
                                               Wayne
    

    F5F does a *superb* job of cutting epoxy paint
    

    I think you got the F and the 5 Mixed up.
    
    The product you mentioned is called 5F5, not F5F!
    
    
    fingers going faster than the brain, eh?
    
    -bill

    re 7 5f5 INDEED
    
    
    thnx for correction

    RE: .6
           I would be a little leery using a paint remover on fiberglass,
    Don't really know what it would do, but you may end up with a much
    bigger problem than you started with.....

>           I would be a little leery using a paint remover on fiberglass,
>    Don't really know what it would do, but you may end up with a much
>    bigger problem than you started with.....

For a good chuckle on this subject, see note 147.40

Paul

    I am having a problem getting hot water in my downstairs
    bathtub/shower.  The water flows readily from both the faucet and
    shower head when the dial is toward COLD, but as the dial is turned
    toward HOT the flow becomes less and less and ultimately slows to
    a trickle when the dial is all the way towards HOT.  The flow from 
    the sink in the same bathroom is fine, however.
    
    Any ideas on what could be wrong and what can be done to fix it?
    
    Thanks for you help.

    How long has this problem existed?  "Forever", or has it happened
    just recently?  Did it just start happening one day, or has it
    been gradually getting worse?

    One obvious idea:
    Is the hot water shutoff valve in the line feeding the shower turned
    off? (it's probably in the basement)

    This has been going on since we bought the house in August.  At
    first, the dial would have to be almost all the way toward HOT before
    being at a comfortable temperature, but the pressure was fine. 
    Then, the pressure and the ability to get hot water got progressively
    worse to the point where the tub/shower cannot be used (it's on
    the first floor so it gets little use, which is why I'm only getting
    around to fixing it now).
    
    I followed the hot water line from the tub to the basement.  The
    line feeds both the tub and the sink.  As I mentioned, the sink's
    pressure/hot water is fine.

    I sounds like something is wrong with the faucet. Shut off the supply
    to the tub and take the faucet apart looking for broken and/or
    dislodged parts. Then you can begin looking for replacement parts
    and/or the whole valve assembly. Warning: be prepared not to turn this
    water back on for a while. :-) One of the joys of plumbing. 
    
    Charly

    re: .3
    
    Ditto.  No bright ideas about any specific cause; just take the
    faucet apart and look.

    
    
    	do you have hot water heater or tankless and also how old if
    tankless. do you have well or town water. the reason for the water
    coming out better in the sink is the smaller diameter pipe. my in
    laws have the same problem we have narrowed it down to it being
    the heating system being 25+ yrs old w/tankless hot water that all
    the coils have been getting smaller in dia. he is on well water.
    hope this helps
           paul

    
    
    I had the same problem in the house I just moved into. The sink
    shower was fine, the kitchen sink was fine the washer feed was fine
    but ht ebathroom sink sank.
    
    took apart the valve and found a rubber flow restrictor - not a
    gasket but onr of the water miser thingies. No more trickle now
    we get a good full flow.
    

    
    	Its in the mixing valve. If its a major "namebrand" you can
    probably get new parts....if not, spring for a new one...about 
    $100
    
    				___GM___
                                  

    re .5:
    
    	Yes, it is a tankless system with well water.  It is only three
    years old, however.
    
    
    re .7:
    
    	Please excuse my ignorance, but...what exactly does a mixing valve 
    look like?  I looked in my "Readers Digest fix-it book, but could not 
    find this part detailed.
    
    	

    Is it a "Temptrol" Valve?  (they're the most common single valve
    shower fixtures that I've seen)
    
    If so, remove the handle, then unscrew the plastic cap (right under
    the handle, it's about 1.5 inches across).  The brass thing underneath
    is the mixing valve.
    
    The temptrol valves will not allow any water to flow if one of the
    other supplies is shut off, so I seriously doubt that you have a
    restriction in the Hot supply line.  I'd take the valve apart and
    check to see if there's any junk in the valve.  You may also want
    to take the mixing  valve out and turn the water back on to try
    to flush out the housing just in case there's something inside.
    
    Next, when you put it back together, there's a small screw on the
    face of the housing.  That adjusts "how hot" the water can get.
    Turn it all the way out, then turn the water on to the hottest you'd
    like to see it.  Next turn the screw in until it stops.  This will
    ensure that you don't scald yourself by hitting the faucet by accident
    
    
    It sounds to me like there's either something in the mixing valve,
    or the mixing valve is bad.  
    
    -bill

re: 1898.8

>I looked in my "Readers Digest fix-it book, but could not find this
>part detailed.
    

Is there a topic somewhere in this conference that discusses recommended
"fix it yourself" books?

There are so many on the market, I'm so confused!

If there is no existing topic, then we should start one rather than reply to 
this note.

    
    	I'd bet its the anti scald valve.
    

re: mixing valve

Yep they exist and that's what they're called. Real common on older 
"tankless" systems and I guess they may be used on some newer units.

My 35 year old American Standard for example. The tankless system is 
mounted in the top half of the furnace. Cold water enters the coils and 
is heated very hot (>200 degrees). Leaving the furnace it enters the 
mixing valve :


	  Hot water to sinks, showers etc
			 ^
		         |
  Very Hot water	 |
  from furance >--------[ ] mixing valve
			 |
			 ^
       <--to furnace-----|----< cold water

The mixing valve is MANUALLY adjusted to mix cold with the very hot 
leaving usable (ie 125-140 degree) hot water. This is somewhat 
problematic in that varying cold input temps (winter vs. summer) cause 
a slight varience in household hot water temp.

these things can clog with age and do have repalceable innards (tehnical 
plumbing term, that).

Chuck

    Over the weekend, I flushed the housing, fiddled with the anti-scald
    valve, and flushed the mixing valve with water...still no go.  The
    mixing valve (the one in the Temptrol valve, not the one described
    in .12) seems to be a pretty basic part.  Aside from the accumulation
    of dirt, what can go wrong with it?  It's a relatively expensive
    part ($25), so is there something else anyone can think of before
    I open my moth-infested wallet?
    

    
    
    	Have you tried taking the shower head off and checking for
    obstructions or is this a problem with the bath water spout
    also ?
    
    	-Steve-
    

    RE: 13
    
    I just played with (and fixed) a Temptrol this weekend for a bath
    tub that stopped giving much in the way of cold water. Once you've
    got the mixing valve out, give it a shake. If it doesn't rattle,
    it's frozen. Give it a whack or two and see if it frees up. I soaked
    mine in vinegar for a day, whacked it a few times and it came back
    to life. Since I've got two of these valves in the house, I may
    decide to buy a spare so that I don't have to shut down a bathroom
    during the requisite overnight vinegar treatment. Give it a try
    and good luck.
    
    BTW, as you are removing or reinstalling this valve, put the mixing
    handle back on and make sure you can turn the valve as you are
    tightening/loosening (i.e., don't have it turned all the way to
    on or off). Also, be careful not to put your wrench near the
    adjusting screw on the face of the valve - I once destroyed one
    of these beggars by torquing the housing around the screw.
    

    Re .14:  It happens with both.

    We recently had a similar problem which was due to the mixing valve
    described in .12. We were told that this valve actually has a
    thermostat in it; not sure if I believed that. I found that when the
    water in the shower wasn't hot, jiggling the mixing valve (which
    sometimes resulted in an audible -ping- from the valve) would
    fix the problem for a while (sometimes for a couple of weeks,
    sometimes just for the morning). 
    
    This problem affected all the domestic hot water supplied. The
    most unusual part is the fact that when I finally got around
    to calling the oil company to come service the thing, the guy
    showed up 20 minutes later. (He had just finished another service
    call in the same town.) 

    I'm a little confused after reading the initial problem and all
    the correspondence since.  Therefore, I'll start at the top.
    
    If the problem is limited to the shower and not any place else,
    I'd look closely at the shower  valve.  The anti-scald valve in
    the show control is the first thing to go after.  Some shower controls
    also have separate restriction valves on the hot and cold lines
    and the hot side could be turned off.  (The show I just put in has
    these.)
    
    If the hot water anywhere in the house is hot for a while and then
    cools off under heavy usage, I'd go after the common elements. 
    The mixing valve, descussed previously, in one candidate.  Another
    is scale on the heat exchanger in the boiler which provides an
    insulating layer inside the pipes.  In a privious house in Acton,
    I had to flush the heat exchanger out with acid several times a
    year.  It was often enough to justify putting in the valves and
    connections so that I could do it myself without having to call
    anybody or take anything apart.  I would have to take apart and
    clean the mixing valve with about the same frequency.
    
    doug
    

    The standard mixing valve used in showers (the Symmons Temptrol is
    the most popular) does NOT have a thermostat.  What it does is
    balance the PRESSURE between the cold and hot lines.  This way
    if you have a sudden pressure change in one line (say by flushing
    a toilet), it simultaneously reduces the pressure in the other
    line, keeping the temperature stable.
    
    Now these things work with a little piston that slides back and forth
    inside the valve.  This piston can get stuck.  When I installed one,
    it was stuck at first, and I could only get hot water out.  With
    a big enough pipe wrench, I was able to disassemble the thing, clean
    out the piston cylinder (it had gotten some plastic pipe shards
    inside), and put it back together - worked like a champ.
    
    I would suspect a similar problem.
    
    					Steve

    How do you finish off the two outside (vertical) edges of the tub
    liner? Just make sure to put plenty of adhesive near the edges?
    
    -John-

    I'm installing a 2 piece tub and surround unit for the first time
    and need some ideas/tips/pointers etc.  I've torn everything down to 
    the studs.  I imagine I just attach the upper section to the studs and 
    don't need to sheetrock behind the surround.
    Am I right or do I need the sheetrock to provide a backing for gluing
    the surround to?  I plan to tile from the top of the surround
    to the ceiling and so will have to sheetrock (green) this area anyway.
    Should I just go and do the whole thing?     
    
    As far as the floor goes I had to pull up the complete subfloor
    and am going to put down a new one.  Should the tub go in first?
    The tub I pulled out sat on the floor joists.  Does the fiberglass
    tub do the same?
    
    A lot of these questions may be answered with installation instructions
    but I haven't taken delivery of the unit yet and so don't know if
    it comes with any.
    
    Thanks for any help
    
    George
    
    
    Thanks for any help
    
    George  

    Let me try this one more time.  The 2 piece tub/shower unit was
    delivered today - without instructions.  After looking at it
    installation of teh tub seems pretty straight foward, not too much
    different from installing a traditional tub but I still have a couple
    of questions.  After I install the tub, when I install the upper unit
    should I caulk between the two?  Do I put a line of caulk between
    the two halves before I assemble them or do I caulk the gap after
    their together?  Do the upper and lower unit need to be screwed
    to each other at perimeter where they join?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    Does anyone know how to remove those adhesives that
    are sometimes put on the floor of bathtubs to prevent slipping?

    I used finger nail polish remover.  Worked great.
    

    
    .1 beat me to the answer.  The active ingredient in fingernail polish
    remover is acetone, a good non-polar solvent.
    
    -tm
    

    ref .1 and .2, thats probably fine for a porcelain tub, but I'm
    not sure what acetone will do to a fiberglass type tub.
    
    Eric

    
    Re: .3
    
    Good point.  Acetone "eats" many plastics, so I wouldn't use it
    on PVC or Fiberglass withouth testing first.  Sometimes mineral
    oil/baby oil can be used to help remove gummy residues from many
    types of stickers.  I would try that first if I had a platic tub.
    
    -tm
    

    After trying many of the suggestions supplied in previous notes,
    I've concluded that our tub surround was permanently damaged by
    whatever our builder used to clean paint off the unit while the
    house was under construction.  It was built on spec and we did not
    find out until recently that vandals spray painted.  The builder
    had to replace the vanity cabinet but used some kind of solvent
    to clean the fixtures.  The fiberglas looked fine when we move in
    but has become very grimy looking and stained and nothing I've tried
    makes an appreciable difference.  We will have to wait a very long
    time and have little chance of getting recourse from the builder
    since he is in bankrupcy.  
    
    Is there a way to refinish the fiberglas on the premises?  I would have
    tear out the doorway and enlarge the opening to get it in and out.
    
    Morale:  If you buy a house built on spec, ask the neighbors if
    it was ever vandalized during construction.  

    There is a small crack in the bottom of my fiberglass tub/shower
    enclosure.  Can this be repaired, or do I need a new tub?
    
    

    
    Argh! I have a second floor bathroom leak. The layout of the room
    is :
    
    
      +------------------------------------+-+
      |   +---+    | |                     | |
      |   +---+    |B|  o       C          |D|    Closet
      |     0      | |                     | |
      |            +-+---------------------|_|-------------
      |                                       x
      |                   
      |                                     E      Master Bedroom
      |-------------------------+          
      |               +-----+   |          |-|     A = vanity and sink
      |            A  |  o  |   |          | |     B = wall
      |               +-----+   |          | |     C = tub
      +-------------------------|          | |     D = wall
                                                   E = doorway
    
      The leak occurs at point x, water coming from under the doorway
    frame. Tonight I'll check whether filling the tub, draining the
    tub, or running the shower causes it. There is no leakage through
    the ceiling (thank goodness) which I'd expect if there were a drain
    leak rather than getting water at the opposite end of the tub.
    Anyone have any guesses?
    
    Mathew T.
    

    
    	Is there any other plumbing on the other side of the door
    or in the closet?  The toilet and the drain for the tub are
    both on the left side of the diagram indicating plumbing would
    be in wall "B", making leaks from the piping unlikely near the
    door.  What kind of material is the tub made from, fiberglass
    or enamel?  Have you checked to see if something is leaking 
    in the attic (if you have one) above wall "D" and making its
    way down to the second floor?  Does it leak all the time, only
    when it rains, or only when you use something in the bathroom?

    i'll hazard a guess that the shower head is at the 'x' end of the
    tub.  if so, that's where i'll bet the leak is coming from.
    
    if the head is at the other end of the tub you could almost count
    that out.
    
    if you do confirm that the problem is in the shower head, you can
    probably get at it through the closet.
    
    good luck,
    
    bs

I don't know if this is relevant in your situation or not, but double-check
your caulking around the tub.  Even the tiniest little gaps or holes can
result in substantial leakage during a leisurely shower.

Not too long ago I cut a hole in a wall thinking my plumbing had sprung a leak,
only to find that caulking was the problem.  Seems the weight of a person
in the tub/shower was enough to create leaks in the caulk not seen otherwise.

-Brian

    Re .3, an trick taught to me by an old plumber was to fill the tub
    before caulking. That way, when the water was let out, the caulk
    was under compression (which it does well), rather than caulking
    while emply and when water is in it, the tub goes down slightly,
    causing the caulk to be under tension (which it does poorly).
    
    Eric

    The shower head is on the toilet side. 
    
    Well - last night, I tried as hard as I could to re-create the 
    situation. First - filled the tub - no leak. Then let the water
    out - no leak. Then ran the shower - no leak! Then - pointed the
    showerhead at the opposite wall and ran it at full blast for 7 minutes
    or so - no leak!!! 
    
    I think somebody's playing games with my head. I have some caulk
    and there were gaps in the tile by the soap dish handle so I recaulked
    anywhere I saw there might be a need. I'll write again as I
    get more info.
    
    I'm confused.
    
    Mathew
    

    Get someone to watch from below while you take a bath, shower, or
    whatever seems to cause the problem - we did this one, and the problem
    turned out to be the pipe going up to the shower head from the mixing
    valve - we thought the drain pipe was leaking because that was where
    the water would appear (for some reason, it is real unusual for
    someone to be in the laundry room when someone else is in the shower
    - just doesn't seem to be a normal combination of events!).  Boy,
    that was a mess to replace, too - after we had already recaulked
    the tub, etc., figuring we knew where the water was coming from
    - although there was already an access hole cut in the wall (over
    a stairwell- real good planning on someone's part: you have to balance
    a ladder on the steps to work on it!), at least!

	I've had much success using paint thinner to remove gummy residues on
	the plastic shower unit, glass panels, vinyl flooring, etc.  Be 
	careful to clean up the oily residue thinner leaves behind on flooring 
	- it can be slippery.
	
JB

    Re: .6
    
    If you get "oily" nail polish remover, it is still acetone.
    
    				Steve

    My tub drain is clogged. It's the kind with the metal arms
    inside the pipes - with no visible way to disassemble it
    without losing the pieces down into the pipes.
    
    I've tried DRAIN-O, a thin wire snake, and a plunger. No
    luck so far. the trap is somewhere in the ceiling of the
    floor below and I don't feel like making holes in the
    plaster to find it.
     
    From the sound of the water, I suspect that the clog is
    within 1 foot of the drain. Any suggestions?

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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If for any reason, after examining these notes, you wish to continue the 
discussion here, send me mail.

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This mail was sent to me by the author, and I thought I'd post it as it gave
more information. 



I read note 353 as you suggested and it isn't very helpful. I don't
like the idea of pouring sulfuric acid down my drain --- especially
since DRAINO is an acid and it didn't work. Calling roto-router isn't
a good solution, either. The last time I did that they socked me
for $125 and went through the trap.

The problem is that I don't want to ruin the downstairs ceiling by
digging out the trap and since the problem is close to the drain
stopper, there *must* be a way to disassemble the drain stopper
to allow a regular pipe snake to fit in. The drain mechanism looks
to be thee kind of thing that if you unscrew the screws you'll lose
pieces into the pipe. But I can't believe that drain construction
would be so poorly designed as to require removing pipes and traps
in the event of a plug. 

    I think Draino is alkaline (lye), not acid, but that's a nit....
    
    I don't know of any way of getting all that stopper stuff
    out of the drain other than by disassembly, mostly from 
    the outside (i.e. what is hidden in your ceiling).  There
    may be a way, but I don't know about it.
    
    Did you let the Draino sit for a while, like overnight?  
    If the clog is hair (and it probably is), it will take a 
    while to break down.  Of course, if you've got kids and
    one of them dropped a plastic toy down there....

    I assume you've discovered that the plug will pull up and
    out of the drain to some extent, although it will remain
    attached to the metal arm business.

    In my bathroom, the trap is also hidden and the pipe is slow.  Lye
    (Liquid Plum'r, Drano, etc.) helps a little but not a lot.  I'm
    told that the typical problem on OLD pipes like mine is that soap
    crud accumulates.  Since soap is alkaline, Drano doesn't dissolve
    it.  Boiling water didn't, either.  Is there any alternative to
    sulfuric acid?  And if not, how does one SAFELY use it on old pipes?

	Have you tried a bent coat hanger or is that what you call a thin
	wire snake.  Put a small hook in the end to catch any hair.

	RE: 0

	You should be able to disassemble the drain plug in the overflow
	tube if it is the type of drain where the plug is located ver-
	ically in the overflow tube.  If it is the type where the plug
	is in the drain shoe, then I believe your only option is to
	disconnect the drain.

    Ah, the fun times of trying to undo a clogged tub drain.
    
    Here's what's always worked for me.  Try your trusty old toilet
    plunger!  You have to make sure that you hold something over the
    overflow opening on the front of the tub (a small sink plunger works
    very well for this by the way), fill the tub with enough water and
    then plunge away.  You'll be able to hear the water sloshing back
    and forth in the pipe, and lots of goo will come up into the tub,
    but you WILL break up the clog.
    
    
    -bill

    re: .8  I second the plunger method.  It worked for me!
    
    Elaine

	I had a nasty clog that I was unable to effectively get at
	with a snake, and disassembly was also not an option. The
	'normal' plunger trick also did not work; however I found
	that Taylor Rental rents a 'kinetic water plunger' that was
	quite effective. The 'kinetic water plunger' uses air
   	pressure and/or water pressure to release clogs. They rent
	the tool for about $15 per day and you only need it for about
 	five actual minutes. Very easy to use and VERY quick at solving
	the problem.
	
	If you have already used a liquid or crystal drain opener
	be careful, no matter what method you decide on, not to get
	any splash back in your eyes etc.....

    i've had good luck putting the hose on my shop-vac over the opening
    and vaccuming out hair and whatever else is stuck in the drain.
    
    bs

    There is another way to get the clog out using common household
    items...
    
    Take your garden hose and wrap the end with an old towel (leave
    about two/three inches of the hose extending beyond the towel wrap).
    Block any overflow openings and turn the hose on, holding the exposed
    end down the drain and holing the towel part tight against the opening
    of the drain.
    
    It is better to have someone help you on this one,i.e. to turn the
    hose on and off.
    
    This works on sinks, tubs, and toilets.
    But remember...
    
    
    
    COVER ALL OVERFLOW OPENINGS.  or you will have a real mess.
    
    PATRICK

    Well, I don't mean to be discouraging but would like to share my
    experience.  I had a slow tub drain when I bought my house.  Real
    slow.  Like don't take two showers the same day.  It was one of
    those drains where the stopped was a real long articulated affair
    and there was no seive or cross hair.  I tried plunging and snaking.
    Never tried the garden hose trick though.  I eventually went to
    the basement and removed the bottom from a drum trap which allowed
    me to get a snake in the line.  After much effort I succeeded in
    pushing a shampoo bottle cap up into the tub.  That sucker was nearly
    a perfect fit.
    
    So gleefully I closed up the trap, cleaned the snake and put away
    all my tools and took a shower.  Water still didn't drain.  Repeat.
    Like total repeat.
    
    Previous malicious tenants had shoved TWO shampoo caps down that
    drain.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

-.1> It was one of those drains where the stopped was a real long 
-.1> articulated affair and there was no seive or cross hair. 
    
-.1> Previous malicious tenants had shoved TWO shampoo caps down that
-.1> drain.
    
    I can sympathize with your situation, but really, that could easily
    happen accidentally.  A couple of times I've had the cap to a tube of
    toothpaste fall into the sink drain.  I could easily envision a tenant
    unscrewing the cap from a shampoo bottle putting it on the floor or tub
    edge, and then having it fall in.  The first cap probably didn't even
    cause a problem.  Many tenants don't call a landlord when things like
    this happen, out of fear of having the rent raised (for being a
    nuisance), losing deposit money, etc. 
    
    Never attribute anything to maliciousness before ruling out accidents,
    stupidity or laziness (my house is living proof of this rule).
    
    -tm
                                  

    re:.13,.14
    You want toothpaste caps?
    
    I own a condo (rented) which, when I bought it, had a very old bathroom
    with a very slow drain.  I had it renovated and put in a new sink.
    When the old sink was removed (it too lacked cross-hairs), the pipe
    (past the trap) was FILLED with toothpaste caps.  And the stub left
    going into the wall was FILLED with them.  After they were removed,
    there were STILL caps in the wall going down, leaving a slow drain.
    
    I doubt it will ever be really fixed.
           fred

    Is refinishing/resurfacing a tub, a do-it-yourself project? Or, is 
    it too difficult?
    
    Terry

Ok, so... I'm a little late!  This is a BIG file!  8^)

I assume the problem was corrected by now, but for future reference, if you
need to disassemble the stopper, and fear losing the small hardware, a cow 
magnet becomes an invaluable tool!

Just an idea...

Bob

RE .-1
> a cow magnet becomes an invaluable tool!

Are these sold at feed stores?

Not sure where you can buy them fresh, but your local slaughter house
will usually have a bunch of used ones around! 

Bob

    re.17
    Feed stores carry them.
    
    -j
    

    What the bull (pun intended) is a cow magnet?
    
    Ed..
    

    It's a magnet you feed to a cow to attract and hold any bits of
    wire, etc. that the cow may ingest, so they don't hurt the cow.

let me get this straight.

You feed a cow a magnet so it will sit in its stomach and collect any 
metal that it ate so it won't pass through it's intestines and hurt 
it??

I guess that makes sense.

Yup...thats about the gist of it...  Only thing I haven't figured
out is *WHICH* stomach the magnet ends up in... Cows have eight!

Bob

    thought they had 4.

>
>    thought they had 4.
>
"well, they were designed for 8, and marketing finally announced the 
upgrade"

    
    	But how do you make sure that the drain isn't clogged by heavy
    air?  You might need a small air shredder in addition to a cow magnet.

    The magnet would be the more attractive (heh, heh) solution.
    
    pbm
    

    Not that it matters but the magnet stays in the 1st or 2nd stomach.
    BTW- Cows use air shredders as a ventilation aid to prevent methane
    concentrations from building up which is the reason why you dont see
    many exploding cows. 
    
    -j
    

    But can you find used air shredders at the slaughterhouse (as you
    can used cow magnets)?
    
    Dick

    re.30
    Sadly no they are quickly snapped up by the attendants and sold
    on the blackmarket to 3rd world countrys that lack the technology
    to develop shredders equal to ours. Inside connections refuse to
    disclose how the used shredders are transported out of the country
    but spectulations of covered-up government involvement abound.
    
    -j

    Furthermore, the air shredders would not pass the Federal EPA & Osha
    standards for sale in USA. It has become common practice to sell to the
    3rd world, products that cannot be sold domestically. 

    p.s. 
    the shredders have not been approved for use in the abatoirs by
    the Rabbinical Council of America either, but that's another story. 

    
    
    				herb

    I was trying to find more information on air shredders,
    and to my dismay, dir 1111.*/title=air_shredder  gave nothing!
    
    Can it be that we don't have a keyword for this valuable piece
    of equipment???  ;^)                          
    Remarkable!
    
    Actually, I was trying to find the note on fireplaces where air
    shredders first came up.  Anybody remember?
                        
    Kevin

    See 1906 (the fun starts around .29).
    
    Jim

I just called Bathtub Genie in Marlboro today.  To re-finish a fiberglass
one piece tub they want $450 for white or $480 for color.  They will match
colors of major fixture manufacturers, so you can get Koehler blue, or
Elger natural...  They will fix any chips before they begin.  They asked
about the severity of the chips, (ie are they leaking)?

Their claim is that a re-finished tub is more durable than a new tub as
they put a stronger coating than what comes on a new tub.  This coating
stands up very well if cleaned with Softscrub, Dow etc.  It takes 4 hours
to do the re-finishing and the tub has to sit for 2 days.  Typically they
schedule for Friday and you go away for the weekend...

Their number is 800 ALL TUBS, and they are sending me a brochure desribing
more about the process.

$480 sounds high to me, but I haven't priced new tubs at all.  If I counted
the aggravation of pulling the old tub, doing the plumbing, (besides fixing
whatever else goes wrong), and trying to fit both up and down the stairs
then adding the price of a new tub and surround, it may not be so bad.

							Tim

    For reference
    
    The January issue of Old House Journal has a detailed article about
    refinishing enamel tubs/fixtures.  It lists the addresses of several
    places which do the work.  It also explains the processes and their
    advantages/disadvantages.

    The article implied that it is a good alternative to new reproduction
    fixtures and a good way to re-use authentic period fixtures.

Re .16:  Bath Genie

We had Bath Genie do over our porcelain-on-steel tub 5 years ago, and
I a was a skeptic.  It still looks almost as good as when they refinished
it (there is one scratch caused by a metal sweater dryer).

The process for porcelain (I'm sure it's the same for fiberglass) is
to treat the tub with acid to give it a good binding surface, then spray
on this porcelain enamel paint, and let it dry.  It was about $300 when
we had it done; more expensive than a new tub, but much, much cheaper
than getting a new tub in!

So I would recommend them!
                        --tom

    I AM going to be installing a tub surround soon. Can I put it right
    over the existing tiles? If so, what kind of preparation do I need? Any
    other tips would be appreciatred.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
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note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I have a 4' tub from 1922, that needs refinished.  Given the "good
    press" on Bath Genie, I called them.  They wanted $295 to do just the
    inside of the tub - I want the outside done also.  To do the entire
    tub will cost $800 !  They were very reluctant to have me bring the
    tub to their shop; they prefer to do it in your home.  I told them I
    did not want the fixtures masked with tape; I wanted the tub sprayed,
    then I would replace the fixtures, and I did not want over-spray all
    over the new walls and floor.  They gave me alot of silly reasons
    for not wanting to do it in their shop.

    I called a place in Waltham that was willing to do the entire tub
    for $250 (same price in my house or in their shop).

    I called a third place in Watertown.  They wanted $250 to do the entire
    tub and $125 if I brought it to their shop.

    Bath Genie gives you a 5 year guarantee (provided you do not use
    abrasive cleaners).  The other two places offer no guarantee, but they
    both were very candid about companies offer.  Both of these guys said
    if a guarantee is offered, the price is higher (they get their money
    up front).  They told me if I do not use any abrasives, the finish
    will last 5 years easily.

    After discussing the process with all three places, I found that all
    of them use the same process.

    Well, I took the tub to the place in Watertown and they did a great
    job !  The name is Porcelain Patch and Glaze.


    Mark    	
    

    I realize that this note hasn't been active for quite a while, but
    instead of starting a new note...
    
    I'm in the process of redesigning/remodeling the OLD bathroom in
    the house.  Vintage 1940, the floor has to be removed and the lead
    waste pipes removed, etc., and space is a major concern.  The room
    is approximately 9 1/2 ft. by 5 ft.  I can put a new tub/shower
    in front of the window, which I really don't want to do.  If I put
    it along the 9.5' wall, the only place the sink could go would be
    opposite the tub.  It would have to be a pedestal sink, and even
    then, we'd only have about 15" clearance.  It has to be a tub/shower
    combo, because of the baby (with more on the way...)
    
    Where can I find a half-tub without paying an arm and a leg?  That
    would give room enough for the little guy to take a bath, and save
    space.  I tried Grossman's and Somerville, but they have to be special
    ordered and we're talking about $600.  I want to get out of it as
    cheaply as possible, since we don't plan on staying in the house
    for much more than 5 years.  Any ideas would be appreciated, on
    either the tub source or a remodeling hint.
    
    Thanx,
    Gene
    

    re.6
    Many late model RV's, self contained camping trailers and Motorhomes,
    have "mini-tubs" with the shower. I'm not sure how much one would 
    cost, especially since RV stuff is usually expensive, but then a 
    $600.00 special order from a lumberyard is no bargain either.
    Try calling a local RV dealer that sells full size trailers and 
    ask how much a "mini tub" would cost?  They would also have to order
    it but the item is "normally used" in their product.
    
    Disclaimer: I'm not sure if there are any plumbing codes that these
    "RV mini-tubs" would have to conform to. 
    
    Dave Carlson

    Have you thought of building a mini-tub out of fiberglass, The resin
    and cloth could not cost more than a couple of hundred. I've seen
    some pretty fancy jobs, with epoxy finishes. I've also seen some
    tubs build out of ceramic tile, but they looked rather crude.
    
    Good luck
    
    Peter 

    Assuming a devil's advocate role....
    
    Are you sure you want to 'make do' in the bathroom? It seems that
    that room is the one place that you'll get a decent return on your
    improvement dollar, *especially* if you DIY.
    
    I just dumped ~$500 on a Kohler pedastal sink and another $500 on
    the matching tub. Considering what the more economical alternatives
    looked like, I couldn't be happier. I feel VERY confident I'll get
    every penny back at re-sale...
    
    Edd

  Its been a year and 8 mos since this note was active, and...

    George, how did you make out on your 2 piece fiberglass tub installation??

    Are you still with DEC??  :)

    I've ordered an Eljer model from Spags and plan to install it this
    weekend.  I have expected all along that instructions would be included
    and am a bit concerned that you didn't get any. Was yours an Eljer brand?

    My concern right now is how to mount the thing to the walls-- I have to
    build a new wall at the drain/valve end of the tub, because the tub is going
    into the far end of the bathroom and the room is a foot wider than the tub
    is long.  The wall will also hide the plumbing.  Any pointers on the best
    way to do 2 x 4 framing for such an installation?

    Does the tub get nailed to the walls?  Does the surround get glued or nailed
    to the walls?

     How about a sequence of steps, if no instructions are included?

        1.  Rough plumbing--done
        2.  2 x 4 framing for new wall on drain end of tub, plus other framing
            to support tub, as required.
        3.  Install tub drain assy to tub, make sure drain plumbing will
            line up with it when tub is installed.
        4.  Install shower valve assy and piping on framing, somehow making sure
            that the valve will protrude through the tub surround just the right
            amount so that the finished surround looks right.  (any good tricks
            for this?)
         5. Install tub, connect drain assy to drain.
         6. Install greenboard in tub surround area as necessary
         7. Install tub surround.                 
         8. Install escutcheons, tub spout and shower arm and head.
         9. Install finish bath panelling or tile as desired, around tub
            surround and tub.
         10. Caulk everywhere water could get behind fiberglass.
         
         11. Install luan plywood on floor.
         12. Install vanity and sink, connnect to plumbing.
         13. Install toilet.
         14. Lay vinyl flooring.
         15. Caulk floor/tub interface.

     Comments?  I could use some feedback.

     Steve

         

    Scott,
    
    Step 5:
    
    When my two piece tub and surround was installed, the wallboard was
    installed afterwards, so that the it covered the mounting flanges of
    the surround.
              Wallboard
    			|  |
    			|  |||
    			|__|||
    		      ------ |
                      |  ----|
                      |  |
   		     Surround
    
    This would seem to make it more difficult for water to find a way
    behind the tub assembly.
    
    Steps 13 and 14.
    
    I reversed these.  Putting the vinyl flooring down first makes a
    neat and easy installation. 
    
    Bob
    
    

    Yeah, I'm still here.
    
    	The installation went well.  But, when I do it again in mmy
    downstairs bathroom I'll be sure to set the tub in a layer of morter.
     Since the bottom of the tub doesn't sit on the floor it flexes
    and doesn't feel as solid as a regular tub.  'Course, part of the
    problem is my not so svelte figure but the morter will support the bottom
    so it feels more solid.  And, if it doesn't flex so much it seems
    like it should last longer.  The morter will also help to deaden
    sound.  When the water beats against that dead air space it sounds
    like a drum.
    
    	Since I was tiling around the surround I used cement board (forget
    what it's called) instead of sheetrock.  The board went over the
    flanges as previously noted.  The flanges get nailed right to the
    2X4 studs, no glue was used since the only part of the shower that
    contacted the walls was the flanges.  Be sure to leave an access
    door to the plumbing when you build the wall.
    
    George

    After recently doing extensive bathroom remodeling in the upstairs
    master bath (new supply line "branches) to relocate a vanity and
    shower; I have hound that the downstairs bath has virtually no 
    hot water.  Cold water pressure is fine........but when the mixer
    is turned all the way to hot, there is just a slow trickle of water.
    
    o I've checked to make sure my shut off valves are all open.
      The bathroom faucet is a Moen mixer type.
    o The hot water supply for this sink comes from the upstairs
      bath that was just remodeled. Upstairs 3/4" HW pipe T's to 
      1/2" supply to downstairs.
    
    o The upstairs remodeling is just "roughed" in at this point....
      all pipes are capped off until carpentry and sheetrock is complete.
    
    Any suggestions?  Should I remove the HW shut-off valve in that
    bath to try and "flush" the system of any solder fragments and/or
    debris??? 
    

    I would give that a try, I ran into the same problem with a sink
    and washing machine, which were a lot easier to fix than your
    shower valve. You might want to try back-flushing your shower
    valve, by shutting off the hot water and hook a hose to the
    shower, open a faucet down stream of the shut off and see if
    any solder comes out. It may save you from having to re-sweat
    fittings.
    
    							Chris

    Anybody tried doing the job themselves?  Are the materials readily
    available (a kit perhaps)?  Seems to me there's no way it can be
    difficult enough to justify the ridiculous prices I'm seeing here.

    I used a two part epoxy product to refinish an antique claw foot tub
    several years ago. (Sorry, I can't remember the brand, but it's
    available at most home centers and hardware stores in a variety of
    colors.)  I used a brush to apply it but it dries to a very smooth
    finish with no brush marks. I was very pleased considering the price
    of the professional jobs.
    
    Jim

    re [.-1] - Thanks!  was it sold specifically for that purpose, or 
    was it a general puspose epoxy finish?  Did it include any kind of
    surface preparation compound (acid etch, etc?).  Thanks again.
    
                                                jb
    

    Sorry for the delay in responding but this is the first time I've had
    time to access this conference in almost a month.  
    
    The product I mentioned is sold specifically for bathtup refinishing.
    I don't recall any preparation material being included with the kit,
    but I seem to remember degreasing the surface with alcohol and cleaning
    with a tack cloth.
    
    Jim
    

I looked through this note and number 102, and decided this was a more
specific note.

I am installing a new fiberglass tub, and want to do it right, especially
as regards supporting the bottom.   I bought an Artesian "Comfortub", and
was astonished that the instructions said NOTHING about what to put the
tub on.  I am assuming that it at least needs a subfloor below it, but otherwise
they would have the tub supported by the studs on three sides and the skirt
on the front.  This is not enough for me.

I am going to go ahead with the mortar or cement under the tub, as
mentioned by others here.  What is the recommended type of cement and
method?  Can someone "walk me through" the steps?  There seems to be about
two inches under the tub bottom when it would be installed level.

Also, someone in note 102 mentioned running a bead of expanding foam caulk
around the edge between the tub and the studs.  I don't understand the
purpose of this.  This particular tub (maybe others?) has a nailing flange
that the sheet rock would cover after installation, and thus there is no need
for a caulked joint around the tub.

				Steve

    I just got through doing this for a shower stall in installed.
    
    The WRONG Way:
    
    My first word of caution is don't assume that the bottom of the
    tub is level (flat). I did....consequently I framed a "form" and
    poured the cement base, letting it cure for two days (w/o the shower
    on it.) Then I set the stall in place.......boy was I surprised when
    it wobbled like my son's rocking horse :-)
    
    The CORRECT Way:                                          
    
    I pulled up the cast concrete pad mentioned above and started
    again.  I started by leveling the shower stall with shims under
    the front and rear edges. I then tacked the shims into place on the
    sub-floor. Then I did moved the shower stall out of the way. This time
    I did away with the thought of being neat with a "form" and I just
    mixed the cement (to a sour cream consistency), concentrating the
    pour in the middle (between the front and back shims). I then covered
    the cement with a plastic vapor barrier. I then set the shower into 
    place and walked around the inside of it to "squish" out the cement
    until I was sure that the shower was level and resting on the shims.
    I used the vapor barrier to help the cement to dry from the inside
    out. I let the cement cure for 48 hrs.
    
    After 48 hrs. I stood in the tub and felt a small amount of deflection
    evidently caused by shrinkage of the cement.  I lifted the shower
    stall and plastic vapor barrier off the dried cement and used aerosol
    expandable insulating foam to lay a "bead" of foam on the concrete
    where the "ribs" of the shower bottom contacted the cement. I then
    replaced the plastic vapor barrier and set the shower back in place.
    I used the vapor barrier just to prevent the foam from "gluing"
    the shower to the cement, it is real sticky stuff! I'm happy to say
    that the bottom of the shower now feels "rock" solid and lies perfectly
    level.
    
    BTW-I used QuickCrete Sand Mix Concrete Mixture.  I mixed it in an
    old plastic laundry bucket, mixing about 20 lbs at a time. Used
    about 80 lbs for a 36x48 shower.
    
      

    Well, I finally brought the tub upstairs and set it in the opening,
    and was astonished to find that the bottom of the tub sits as much
    as THREE inches off of the subfloor!  This is an Artesian "Comfortub".
    
    The installation instructions say NOTHING about supporting the bottom
    of the tub, and three inches of concrete seems a bit much.  (It does
    slope to about an inch and a half at the drain end.
    
    Has anyone had experiences with this sort of tub?  Can I safely just
    let it hang and hope for the best?  
    
    		Steve

    Steve-
    
    The concrete pad I described pouring for the Lasco shower stall
    was easilt 2-3".  It wasn't even cause the ribbing underneath
    the base was sloped for drainage to the center drain.  I used
    a 2x4 lying on the 4" side set at the back wall to support the
    shower at the back.  The front rested on it's own fiberglass skirt.
    I then added shims under the front and back until perfectly level
    ........then I removed the shower and poured the concrete as described
    in 531.15.

I called Artesian and they insist that the tub needs no support underneath.
I may rig up something anyway....

		Steve

    Well, the tub will support the weight of a tub full of water and an
    average person but the bottom will have some give to it.  If you are
    used to a cast iron tub or tile shower, you may feel a bit quesy about
    trusting the tub.  
    
    I agree with previous replies that you will want to put some thing
    between the tub and the floor to provide some additional support to
    eleviate the sag and give.  Under normal use the tub will hold up, but
    I personally don't like the flex underfoot.
    
    

    I recently (11-mar-90) read an article in the Boston Globe Home and
    Garden section about soft skin bath tubs. The tub has a rubberized
    plastic skin, bound to a foam backing. The article mentioned that the
    tub skin, if stood in w/ golf shoes/spikes would not puncture/tear.
    And even if it did there is a repair kit which will give you invisible
    repairs. Apparently many accidents occur in (hard) tubs, (they quoted
    the figures). And that a metal tub drastically reduces the temp of the
    water. Aside from being comfy and safe, the tub will only lower the
    water temp 1 degree every 15 minutes. Anybody have one of theese???
    Any pros/cons/ or comments...?
    
           -bd-

The article also mentioned the price - $2000 and up.  

		Steve

    My fibreglasss tub/showers (2) have been installed about 10 years.
    Neither has any extra support underneath. No problems, ( except for the 
    gold color of one of them :^( )

    Sounds like what they line some swimming pools with.  We'll probably
    see it in TOH next week.....
    
    Dave

I decided to forgo the cement.  It seems sturdy enough.

		Steve

      When we built our home we thought that we would have to trim about
      3-4"  off  the  top  of  one  end  of   a   one-piece   fiberglass
      tub/enclosure  in  order  for it to fit under a slopping roof.  It
      ended up that this wasn't required, but thats besides the point.
      
      I  was  concerned  about  cuting  the  enclosure  so  I  went to a
      fiberglass fabricating firm near where I lived at the time.  Among
      other advise the man I spoke to offerd the following.  Even though
      I had not asked about supporting the bottom of the tub he strongly
      recommended that I do so.  If I didn't, he said, I'd have problems
      in a few years time.
      
      So  I went back to the plumbing supply house and asked about this.
      They told me the exact opposite.  According to them, any attemp to
      support  the  bottom  of  the  tub would CAUSE problems, not avoid
      them.  
      
      So  there  you have it.  Two supposedly knowledgable sources.  Two
      contradictory recommendations.  What is a poor boy to do?  
      
      Well,  it  turned  out  that  a  couple 2x4s laid flat fit exactly
      between the foor and the underside of the tub.  They're fitted  in
      loosly, with just a couple nails to keep them from sliding around.
      By stepping in the tub before and after inserting the 2x4s I could
      feel a difference in the "give" of the tub bottom.
      
      That  was  my  "solution"  and  going on 5 years later I have no
      problems.  Of coursw I may not have had any  problems  without  the
      supports either.  And who knows what the future will hold?

    I couldn't find a note dedicated to types of bathtubs so here it goes.

    I will be in the market for a bathtub soon (not a replacement but for a
    new bathroom) and am not familiar with the different types.  In a
    Somerville Lumber ad they listed steel, cast iron, 2 piece fiberglass,
    and 1 piece fiberglass - in increasing price.  Also 4' and 4 1/2' tubs
    are alot more than the 5' ones.  Is 5' the standard?

    Any comments on bathtubs (types, sizes, etc.) would be greatly
    appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Kevin.

5' tubs are the standard - the standard width is 30-32 inches.

Cast iron tubs are strong but VERY heavy.  Few people bother with these
anymore.  The cheapest tubs are enamelled steel.  There are also PVC
plastic tubs, which usually have a styrene foam liner because the PVC is
not strong by itself.  The most popular tubs are fiberglass, which are
strong and lightweight.

If you are designing a new bathroom, consider that a 5' tub is really
short for many people, and that a longer and wider tub can be a wonderful
luxury.
 
I'd go for a 72 inch long by 36 or 42 inch wide tub if it would fit.  You
might even consider a whirlpool tub (discussed in other notes).

Of course, if you NEVER take baths, then a standard tub is inexpensive and
will work fine.  See the earlier notes on firming the bottom of a tub.

				Steve

    2 piece fiberglass tubs are created for retrofiting a bathroom.  The
    problem is that you cannot get a 1 piece fiberglass tub through
    doorways and down hallways and into a bathroom in an existing house in
    most cases.  They have the advantage of being fiberglass so the only
    seam that can leak is the one between the two pieces.  The drawback is
    they are fiberglass so can be scratched and you can break them with a
    really hard wack with your fist,(like when you fall down).
    
    1 piece fiberglass are easy to install.  Connect the plumbing, nail to
    studs, and your are ready to go.  Contractors love them.  If the dead
    air space around the tub is not filled, they are very noisy when water
    hits the side.  Because they are fiberglass, they also have some give
    and can flex if space between the tub and the floor is not filled.
    
    Cast iron tubs usually have an enamel painted finish.  This paint can
    be chipped but usually are very durable.  My tub is 38 years old and
    has been abused.  No chips but they are scratches from pets being
    washed.  I can always have it re-enameled (note 465).  My personal
    favorite.  The cast iron is heavy and has no give.  If I fall, I know
    that I will wack my head.
    
    Steel, I don't know.  I would imagine that it is a lighter weight than
    the cast iron so may flex and the enamel finish would not be as
    durable.

    If it was me, and I was considering only 'standard' 5 ft. tubs, the
    only thing I'd even think about was a 1 piece enclosure (or a two-
    piece if it's a retrofit).
    
    I'm not convinced it's possible to build a permanent water-tight
    enclosure using ceramic tiles, etc., and water damage is something 
    I don't EVER want to deal with again.
    
    Edd

    
    Steel has the disadvantage of being the best conductor of heat.
    A cast iron tub will hold the water temperature of the bath water
    longer.  Plastic is even better in that regard.
                   
    As far as having a water-tight enclosure goes, ceramic tile works
    great if it is installed over cement board (Wonderboard and
    Durock are two brands of cement board).  If I wanted to build
    a luxury bathroom, I would definitely use ceramic tile over
    cement board.  I wouldn't even consider using green board
    (water resistant sheet rock) in a bath/shower.  It's really not 
    much better than ordinary sheet rock.
    

    
    Thanks Kevin for placing this note into the file.  I will also be in
    the market for a new bathtub for a 2nd floor bathroom remodeling
    project. What I have removed was an old UR fiberglass 2 piece (tub and
    enclosure). My plans for the remodel, since my wife can't stand the
    enclosure, and also because the bathroom is being remodeled to correct
    leaks, was to use Ceramic tile + Epoxy Mortor/Groout over Wonderboard
    in the enclosure area. I've already purchased the Wonderboard and am
    just strating to consider what type of tub to use. I had heard that
    fiberglass tubs were good but am wonderboarding now if we should
    install a cast iron tub? 
     	I would appreciate any recommendations you experienced folks may
    have concerning this project. 

    I installed a new, 5 1/2 foot cast iron tub three years ago.  It is
    not a one person job to move it, and once located it needs to be
    properly leveled, pitched and slanted, and hook up was not easy as
    it's on a finished concrete floor with almost no access underneath.
    
    But it's there to stay, it as solid a Gibraltar, and feels like
    _real_ plumbing.  The only nicer tub I've ever been in was an old
    world hotel with a...yes...6 1/2 foot tub.  Unreal!  But the Kohler
    cast iron one I put in was in new construction, it weighed 435 lbs
    and I got it for $525 plus tax, delivered.
    
    Erick
         

    See note 3748 on soft tubs........

    When I built my house two years ago, I installed two of Kohler's
    full enclosure glass tubs.  These include the ceiling as well (no
    more mildew on the ceiling!)  If you use these, you will need to
    put a light fixture in the top.  We lifted the tubs to the second
    floor by using 4 X 4 jacks, and in the rough opening for a window.
    Unit is 5' wide by about 7' tall.  
    
    The only problem was the custom colors are factory special order.
    Lead time was 8 - 10 weeks.  At the end of 8 weeks, I called the
    plumber, who called the distr. who said "maybe another 8 to ten
    weeks...".  This didn't fly well.  I bullied the plumber for the
    distributor's phone number, the distr. for the factory's phone number,
    made them aware that I was NOT a happy camper.  They committed to
    ship within the week and did.  
    
    Moral: Don't take any crap from plumbers, distr's, or Kohler!  Let
    'em know you mean business and a commit is a commit, d*mmit!!

Last weekend I installed a 5-piece tub surround kit from Novi American,
style name "Capri".  I was not impressed...

The first thing I noticed was the color.  They claimed that the almond color
matched the Artesian/Eljer "Bone" or "Natural", but it is significantly
darker.

The kit contains three flat sheets and two corner panels.  The instructions
refer to raised edges on the end panels that go over the edge of the corner
pieces, but there are none - the sheets are absolutely flat, so that the
join from end panel to corner is not flat.

Also, the panels are all slightly different lengths, making it harder to get
it looking right.

Lastly, though the box shows the corner pieces to have sharp corners (to fit
properly against the wall), they are in fact rounded so there is a large gap
to be filled in with caulk.

If I were to do it again, I'd pay the extra money to buy a one-piece 
surround.

					Steve

    I think most of the retrofit tub surrounds come in three pieces,
    because often the one-piece ones are real hard or impossible to get
    into a finished house - you might get lucky if you have a doorway right
    across from the bathroom door, and your bathroom is big enough to turn
    the thing in.  I put in a three-piece one, also.  Actually, I hired
    a carpenter to do it, since I didn't want to fuss with cutting the
    middle piece out around the window over the tub (yes, that's a silly
    place for the window, but it was alread there...).  That turned out to
    be a good thing, since the tub itself was not installed perfectly level
    and the carpenter had to do some extra kludgery to get the part at the
    foot of the tub to fit correctly - the tub was not level by about 1/2",
    which is quite a bit (I knew it was off, but hadn't realized how much).
    
    I don't recall what brand the thing was anymore, but all the pieces
    looked and fit as they were supposed to - and like I said elsewhere, it
    sure is much easier to maintain.  I didn't attempt to match the tub; I
    got the enclosure in a shade intermediate between the tub and the tile
    wall (which was a darker color).
    
    /Charlotte

    When I did my bathroom I was adamant about wanting a one-piece tub
    surround. So much so, that busting out the door frame to get the 
    unit into the room was worth the effort to me. It must have taken me
    2 hours even then to get it into the room...
    
    Edd

    PERSONALLY, being the owner of a 1-piece fiberglass tub, I would never
    get another fiberglass tub.  They're so impossible to clean when
    compared with an enameled tub.  They scratch very easy, and soap just
    loves to stick to them.  I've heard rumor that using a car wax helps
    keep the soap scum to a minimum, but you better wear suction cups on
    the bottoms of your feet (and a helmut!).  
    
    AND, if it's at all possible to get a longer/wider tub, and you'll use
    it, don't hesitate for a second.  You'll be glad you did in the long
    run.
    
    pw

    I wax my tub regularly with whatever car wax I have at the time. I do
    believe it cuts down the maintenance. (And the tub looks GREAT!!)
    
    I've noticed no problem with slipping, but would advise people to
    be careful anyhow....
    
    Edd

You can use car was, but shouldn't wax the bottom of the tub.  What works
much better is GEL-GLOSS, available in hardware stores and other places.
It is not slippery to the touch, but it restores the shine and soap and
other crud just rinse off.

				Steve

    There is nothing wrong with waxing the bottom of a tub. You won't
    slip... Bare feet won't slip, but don't take a shower with your socks
    on!   
    
    Jim
    
    Waxing to get better grip is something I learned from my surfing
    days. 

    RE:  .11
    
    I've been searching for a couple of years for a product that will take
    the soap scum off of a fiberglass surround.  Does Gelcoat really work?
    
    The Globe handyman column once recommended lemmon oil, but I've never
    happened upon any.
    
    We've used auto-wax on our surround since the day I installed it.  It's
    fairly effective, but inevitably soap scum builds up around the
    soap tray.  Nothing short of scraping/hard rubbing gets it off.
    

    We found a product recently called ELIMINATE.  It claims to be come
    kind of enyzme which actually eats the soap scum off the surface.  We
    have a tile surround on a porceilen tub and man oh man does it work
    great.  Spray on, wait 10 minutes, rinse off.  No dangerous smell, not
    corresive to skin.  It will eat the the limestone out of grout so don't
    leave it on too long.  
    
    Comes is white plastic cylinder with pink and blue lettering.  We buy it
    at Home Depot in Atlanta.  Have no idea where you Yankees could get
    some.  If I think about it I will try and get the manuafacter
    information and post it.
    

    The Gell Gloss works ok. The results are great. The fibreglass tub
    really taks a good shine, and it cleans up real easy after a shower,
    but it is a lot of work. I found the product to be very hard to work 
    with. You need a lot of elbow grease. 
    

    Hey (Southern for hello) Bruce-
    
    Us Yankees now got Home Depot up heah in the Nawth - at least in New
    Joisey!
    
    	-Barry-
    

>    I wax my tub regularly with whatever car wax I have at the time. I do
>    believe it cuts down the maintenance. (And the tub looks GREAT!!)


	Gee, i don't even wax my car!  :-)


-jim

    There is a product in the household cleaner section now in a lime green 
spray bottle, called Lime-away (or similar such name). It is specifically 
for removing soapy buildup. Does work great, but does not spray evenly, you 
have to really cover the wall with it if it is a large area. Use this to 
get 90% of your scum removed, then go for the wax/gel-gloss.

    Vic H

    I did a remarkably horrific job of caulking the perimeter of our newly
    installed glass tub enclosure and I want to remove the caulking and
    start again. Does anyone have any ideas for how I can go about this?
    I've tried tearing, scraping, etc., but the stuff is pretty well stuck.
    It's white silicone caulk.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

I've had success  with one of those flat retractable razor blade knives
they use for cleaning windows.  Two orthogonal passes were required.  Then I
scraped it out with a screwdriver.  To get a nicer job next time, try masking
with tape and using a finger covered with a baggie dipped in water to spread it
evenly.  While still soft, remove the tape. I just read that in a magazine but
haven't had occasion to try it myself yet. 

- Bob

    Thanks for the tip on a neater application for next time around,
    however, I cannot use a razor blade to remove the existing caulking as
    I'd surely scratch the surface of the metal frame. Any other ideas?
    
    Mike

>   <<< Note 2208.8 by CUPMK::PHILBROOK "Customer Publications Consulting" >>>
First, take  a razor blade and remove as much as you can withought touching the
surface so as  to  avoid  scratching.    Then  try  nail  polish remover on the
remainder.

Dave

I have looked through most of the notes dealing with rust and can't find
anything on how to remove rust from a porcelain bath tub.  I have tried bleach
but nothing, I let it stand overnight still nothing. the tub is in excellent
condition except for these rust stains.  I do not think a refinishing job
is in order.

Thanks,

Cal

We have "wicked iron" in our water.  The only thing that was able to get all the
stains out was ZUD.  Make a paste and apply it to the stain.  Let it sit for a
while then scrub away.  This stuff is kinda like Comet cleanser, but better.  
Works great.  I've found it in grocery stores.

    Bleach won't do a thing, except maybe make the rust stain worse.
    Get some oxalic acid crystals, mix up a solution of that, and
    let it sit overnight on the stain.  You can get a small bottle
    of oxalic acid crystals at the drugstore (probably) at an absolutely
    outrageous price considering how much you get, or you can usually
    get it at Spag's in the paint department in 1-pound boxes.  At
    least, you could before they reorganized; I haven't looked for it
    since they did that.  I assume they still carry it.  A good big
    hardware might have it too; it's used for bleaching wood.
    

Boy, we've got about half a dozen notes about removing rust from every other 
known surface, and another half a dozen about removing other stains from
porcelain, but none about removing rust from porcelain.

Does anyone else get the feeling that eventually we'll have separate notes on 
removing rust from blue porcelain and white porcelain?  :-) :-) :-)

You might try an acidic removal agent, instead of basic(bleach).  We get those
blue-green stains in our sink from our water supply, and a squirt of 
"Lime-away", which is simply an acidic cleaning solution, literally dissolves
the stain in a couple of seconds.  I've never tried it on rust, though.

Paul

    re:.3:Does anyone else get the feeling that eventually we'll have
    separate notes on  removing rust from blue porcelain and white
    porcelain?  :-) :-) :-)
    
    Well, you see, I was just looking for a note concerning rust on yellow
    porcelain. %-}  %-}
    
    ed

    You might try just putting some vinegar on it overnight, for 
    that matter, before you hunt up oxalic acid.  I've had good
    luck de-rusting steel parts by soaking them in vinegar for 
    a few days.

    Apparently, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) reacts with disolved iron
    (or iron in one of its various forms) and acts as an oxidizing agent
    thereby PRODUCING rust stains!
    
    So, if you have a high iron content in your water, then you should
    actually avoid using chlorine bleaches -- you run the risk of rust
    stains on everything.  We live in just such an area and have rust
    stains on our toilets because of the use of bleach.
    
    Stuart

    Re:4024.0
    
    You may want to try a product called IRON OUT.  I have used it on
    toilets, tubs, sinks etc. It is very powerful, I have noticed that
    some of the drain fixtures appear black, this may be because of
    scratches or the iron that is imbedded in the fixture. 
       
    It should only be used in a ventilated area.  This was recommended
    to me through the man that was repairing my water filter system.
    You can purchase IRON OUT in a hardware store, I haven't seen it
    in regular department or grocery stores.  I have used it on fiberglass
    tubs, showers, in the washer with white clothes with rust stains, 
    and in the dishwasher with glasses to  remove the rust stains.
                                                                    

    Yep, Iron Out will work too.  Is *is* powerful stuff!  
    You can get it at Spag's in the plumbing dept.

	I couldn't find a whirlpool tub note in the index but if anybody
	remembers one...
	
	I'm considering getting a whirlpool tub in one of the standard
	sizes ( 60 x 30 or 60 x 32 ) for my master bath.  I like the
	ability to take a whirlpool but this tub would primarily be
	used for everyday showers.  Is this a recommended use?  I concerned
	that there might be some parts that aren't intended for everyday
	use or that the tub might be extra hard to keep clean.
	
	Anyone had any experiences with using a whirlpool tub for everyday
	showers?
	
	Garry

    re: .19
    
    We are having a whirlpool tub installed in the master bath of our new
    home.  The only down side we could find was that it is taller than a 
    normal tub - this means that you have to step a little higher when 
    getting into the tub to take a shower.
    
    Mary
    

    Re: .19
    
    I had a Kohler Guardian Bath Whirlpool (model K783) installed a few
    years back when I had a second floor added to the house.  It's a standard
    size (60" x 32" x 16"), cast iron, 4 jets.  It has certainly been used
    for far more showers than baths.  It seems to be in fine shape.

I know this note is a bit old, but can someone post a name of the product used
to refinish a tub yourself. Also a place were it can be purchased. 
I've been to quite a few home centers, plumbing supply outlets,
no one has a clue as to what I'm talking about.
 Any pointer would be appreciated


Mike

After splurging on a corner (triangular) whirlpool tub by Jacuzzi for our new
master bath (being constructed this week), we also purchased a special rec-
tangular faucet, called a "rainbow spout", which dispenses the water in a
waterfall-like flow.

Well, our plumber says (and double-checked) that this spout/tub combination
is not to Massachusetts building code, therefore, would not pass inspection.
The law says that the spout cannot be below the topmost edge of the tub, or
else water could potentially backflow into it.  The spot where the tub brochure
shows the spout mounted is slightly (3/4") below the topmost edge of the tub.

So, he's advised us to go pick out a wall-mounted spout/handle fixture instead.

Anyone ever hear of this?  Why would Somerville Lumber display and sell such a
combination if its not legal in the state of Mass.?  It's disappointing since
the spout is quite unique, but more so since we have to return it, make another
trip to the store - risk our next selection being out of stock, and cause a 
delay in the project...

If anyone's ever had one of these spouts installed in Mass., how did you get
around this apparent restriction?

Thanks,
-Cori

I've never heard of it, but I think the reason this is illegal is to prevent
backflow in case your water system loses pressure.  Why does Somerville
display it?  Maybe they don't know that it's illegal, or maybe they don't
care.  After all, they sell lots of plumbing supplies to non-plumbers,
and non-plumbers can't legally plumb in MA.

    Yep, it has to be above the potential standing water level.  Notice
    sometime that all your other faucet spouts are (or at least they are
    if they're legal!)
    
    Any chance of putting a spacer under the faucet to raise it up an
    inch or so?

    .1 is right. I believe the correct term is "Cross-Coupled". If the
    spout goes below the highest point that the tub can be filled to it
    could act as a siphon in the event that water pressure is lost in the
    water main. This could siphon your tub water into the municipal supply
    
    	I admit that this scenario seems unlikely but... 
    
    	Check to see if the spout is really below the highest water level
    that your tub could reach. (ie: is the bottom of the spout below the
    overflow drains?)
    
    	As for the faucett being illegal, it may not be. It just might be
    that the particular *combination* of tub and faucet thatyou selected 
    creates the cross-couple potential that violated code.
    

>>                      <<< Note 4229.0 by 4EVER::MEHRING >>>
>>            -< "Rainbow Spout" on Jacuzzi bathtub illegal in Mass? >-

.re	As for why Somerville would still sell it....
	
	Why not?  It's not their responsibility to uphold the building 
	codes.  Another example of this, is that in NH,  it's required to
	use anti-scald shower valves.  Builder's Square in Nashua only
	sell ONE (1) that meets code and many many others that don't.
	You can get away with it in NH since all plumbing changes need
	not be inspected.
	
	Garry

Well, thanks for the inputs - I'm on my way back to S.Lumber tonight and will
discuss the options with them (regarding raising the spout, etc.).  I didn't
notice where the overflow drains were located, but I should be able to check
the display model for them...

-Cori

               I'm not a GURU, by any means....But if they're worried
       about back-flow into the water supply, couldn't one use a
       backflow preventer...My duplex in NH has two....One on the
       water line coming in, right after the meter, and another one on
       the feed line to FHW/Dom. H20 boiler.

               Just asking...

               Steve

Actually, upon our return visit to Somerville Lumber, my husband came up with 
that same idea.  But, for some reason the plan was nixed (I'll find out why),
so we just picked out a wall-mounted extended faucet.

Incidentally, the two men servicing the bath fixture area of S.Lumber were very
surprised to hear that the plumber advised us to switch fixtures -- until they
heard what town we live in (Wilmington, MA)...It turns out we have one of the
strictest inspectors in the state (we heard some other stories from the clerks),
so that explained things a bit better.

-Cori

Strange - all of the "Rainbow" style spouts I've seen emit their water at
least an inch or two above the level of the tub.  I'd agree that one whose
outlet could possibly be covered by water would open the door to a
backflow problem.

			Steve

    Just for the heck of it, or you still really may want the rainbow
    faucet, why don't you call jacuzzi direct and talk to some of their
    technical folks. Certainly they wouldn't design a procuct that 
    would not meet code in 50% of the US., and if they did by accident, 
    they probably know about it by now and have a work around.  
    

    re .10
    
    I am also in the process of ordering a Jacuzzi, which I will be
    installing myself (Live free or live in MA!!!!).  The tub comes with no
    holes drilled in it.  You put holes to suit the fixtures you buy.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

Oh...  you drilled holes in the tub for the spout?  Did Jacuzzi say to
do that?  I'd think the spout should be mounted in the wall above the
tub, as normal tub spouts are.  I can definitely see why the inspector
would complain about a spout in the tub!

			Steve

It's not clear to me from what's been said so far that the faucet
violates code. It seems like it would depend on where the overflow
drains are on the tub.  If the overflow is below the level of the
faucet, you should be OK.  If you like the fixture, it would be worth
checking with Jacuzzi to see what they have to say about it.  After
that, it's your choice if you want to be jerked around by a cranky inspector.

>>>==>PStJTT

  Jacuzzis come "pre-plumbed", which I gather (from their literature)
  means that all the holes and the pump and its associated plumbing are
  supplied. The particular model Cori's got has, if I'm not mistaken,
  faucet mounting holes already drilled. I could be wrong.

  Re .last, just how does one avoid being jerked around by a cranky
  building inspector? The only method I know of might work in Italy, but
  would get you a prison sentence in this country.

Steve,

>Oh...  you drilled holes in the tub for the spout?  Did Jacuzzi say to
>do that?

	Yes they do. We have a Jacuzzi whirlpool tub. It has a rainbow spout
that is mounted on an angle in one of the corners (above the tub so code is
not a problem). We couldn't put it on a wall if we wanted to. The wall is about
2' away. Jacuzzi has diagrams for mounting it in corners, sides, middle, etc.,
wherever you want to drill the holes.

								Mark

Re: .15

Oh, ok.. It's mounted on the tub deck.  That means the output of the spout
is above the rim of the tub and it should be legal.  I don't see what the
gripe is.

				Steve

re: 4229.13   "Rainbow Spout" on Jacuzzi bathtub illegal in Mass?      13 of 16
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>drains are on the tub.  If the overflow is below the level of the
>faucet, you should be OK.  If you like the fixture, it would be worth

    Sorry if this is out of place, but I use batch exrtracting of
    "unseens" ..
    
    I just went through a similar issue of having the 'supply line' below
    the "drain level". The basic health problem is one  of ".. if the
    water pressure fails due to a broken pipe, the used (contaminated)
    water could be sucked back into the supply pipes.  causing as health
    hazard".
    
    There is a device called (for lack of correct terms) a "backflow
    valve", and they are typically used on Bidets, and compared to a
    "above drain" supply, they are somewhat pricey. Fountain plumbing
    fixtures cost someting like $250 compared to "above reservoir" which
    is around $95.00 (like at Builders Supply) for the Eljay brand.
    
    I would think (perhaps mistakenly) if someone really wants "bottom
    fed" or "below level" supply; an add on back flow valve could be
    installed .. but expect a certain amount of pricieness ..
    
    (yes I know a bidet and jacuzzi are different, but the principle is
    different, and one doesn't get pregant in a bidet)...
    -Bob
    
    
    

    Better late than never. I haven't read all the 17 previous replies but
    here goes...
    
    I have a rainbow spout on my two person rectangular tub that I bought
    at Somerville in Westboro 6 years ago. It makes the tub. We ordered the
    tub and didn't realize that the spout wasn't included. I wasn't
    impressed when the tub was installed with the "standard" faucet. That
    got pulled and the rainbow installed. The rainbow on my tub is
    installed on the top edge of the tub above the level of the lip. Until
    my bathroom gets flooded to 3' deep, there will be no backflow. It's
    not in the tub. I don't see how you can get the "rainbow" effect
    without it mounted this way.

Well, to set some of you straight:

o  The tub does not come with pre-drilled holes (thus you can pick where to
   place the fixtures)

o  Our particular tub is triangular (fits in a corner) and has a wide "ledge"
   area less than an inch, but still recessed from, the topmost lip of the
   fiberglass.  This is where the jacuzzi brochure shows the rainbow spout
   mounted.  In other standard shaped tubs, the ledge is not recessed from the
   top edge, thus there wouldn't be this problem.

o  Yes, a backflow valve was an alternative, but as mentioned, it was quite
   expensive (has to be exposed -- accessible, as in the basement somewhere)
   when added with the required labor, etc.

o  Yes, the "rainbow" spout cannot be mounted on a wall -- it is about a 3" by
   7" by 1" rectangle, where the water comes out from the widest side (7"x1")
   to create a waterfall effect.  So, it wasn't that the plumber didn't know
   how to install it...

I looked at the tub and didn't see any backflow drain holes near the top, so 
I don't know if those have to also be drilled, or what...

We ended up getting a wall-mounted extended spout and knob set, which was even
more expensive than the original (both were brass...), but will pass in-
spection fine and is certainly equivalent functionality-wise...However, it
will probably always bother me since I feel we had to compromise for no
reasonable reason -- and the wall-mounted spout could potentially be dangerous
if one is sitting in the tub, since it's extended (to allow the required
water flow), which makes it kind of obtrusive... Sigh.

If I didn't have work, baby on the way, etc. I would've made more of a stink
about this, but not only is it stressful, it was causing even more delays in
the whole project.  Calling Jacuzzi may have helped, but there's still the
problem of convincing the inspector.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions

    After looking at 1111 I don't believe there is a note specificly
    related to what I'm looking for. I'm shure I'll be corrected if I'm
    wrong.
    
    I have come to the point where I need to replace the bathtub in my
    house. The problem is how do I remove this thing? It was obviously put
    in before the ceramic tile arround it. I guess what I would like to do
    is cut it in pieces to make removal easyer. The question is, how do I
    do it? Here the situation
    1. the tub is the width of the bathroom.
    2. the toilet bowl is about 18" in front of the tub ( I guess I could
       remove it temporaryly)
    3. The tile walls will be removed (to replace the waterlogged plaster
       behind it) and replaced with a fiberglass type tub surround.
    4. Most importantly the thing is made of cast Iron. 
    
    I have been told that it could be cut with a torch. But it seems to me
    like I'd be asking for a fire with that suggestion. Another suggestion
    was to wack it with a sledge hammer. Somehow the thought of porcelain
    flying everywhere seems a bit dangerous. How about a sawsall, would
    that work? I am shure this has been done many times before I just don't
    know anybody who has done it. Any suggestions?
    
                                                       GUY 

I would put on heavy boots, heavy pants, a heavy shirt, and eye
protection and go at it with a sledgehammer.  With the door shut.
I'd smash in the front to start with, and then break down the top.  

I'd be surprized if it was that tough a job, or if there were that 
many flying pieces.  I broke up a discarded cast iron sewer pipe once 
and it crunched quite easily -- cast iron is brittle.  Cleaning the 
tools was my worst problem -- I replaced it because it was clogged...

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Smashing things gets a lot easier if one buys a heavy sledge.  

PPS -- Using a sawzall sounds dangerous to me, even if it would work
on cast iron.  You'd have to break a starter hole anyway.

    You'll be amazed at how easily it breaks with the sledge.  Don't go
    nuts; start with soft taps and progress to harder ones until it cracks.
    Also, don't underestimate the weight of the pieces.
    

    I tried breaking up a cast iron tub with a sledge and I couldn't do it!
    The hammer just bounced off that sucker and after a while I started
    vibrating more than the tub.  I was able to get the tub out with the
    help of my brother (I gave him the heavier end).  We dropped it to the 
    ground from a height of 14 feet and it still didn't break.  Somebody 
    took it off my hands for use as a horse trough.
    
    Are there different kinds of cast iron that are less brittle that might
    resist this sort of attack?
    
    Bob

There are such things as cast steel tubs

Don't forget ear protection when smashing with the sledge. Even cotton wads are
better than nothing. Those sledge blows are LOUD!!!

CdH

There was an article in Fine Homebuilding (Great Moments in Building History)
in the last issue or two that told a story about extracting a similar tub.

While the story is also humorous, it might also give you some ideas about what
might be done.

- Mark

    There are also steel tubs; they won't break with a sledgehammer.
    A cast iron one should though.  I think the sledgehammer route
    is your best bet.  Cast iron doesn't cut very well with a torch,
    not to mention the fire hazard.  A steel tub would probably cut 
    pretty well with a torch, if the porcelin didn't interfere, but
    I'd worry about setting the house on fire....

and as .1 says COVER YOUR ENTIRE BODY with clothing/protection.  I broke apart
a cast iron tub with a sledge hammer - yes it was loud - the worst part was the
flying enamel finish.  It was very sharp - like glass.  

Brian

    I'd suggest the sledge approach too.  What about using a blanket or
    something of heavy cloth over the area you are to strike with the
    sledge?  It would seem to me that this might reduce the flying enamel
    and splinter pieces.
    
    Carl
    

    
      I broke up a cast iron tub this past November. I put an old light 
    blanket over it and hit it with the sludge hammer. it was a real easy
    job.  The whole thing including cleanup took less than 1 hour. 
    Cast steel will not break up. You will know pretty fast if it is
    cast iron or cast steel when you hit it.
                                                            Bill

    If you end up not destroying the tub, Vermont Salvage in Manchester,
    New Hampshire will pay you for the tub if you bring it to them.  They
    will pay you 20% of what they usually sell them for.

    Thanks for all the replys. It's obvious that the way to go is to wack
    it with a sledge. I would be supprised (as well as angry) if this tub
    is not cast. In looking at the back side of it (there's an oversized
    hole for the drain in the floor under it) the finish is rough. In other
    words it looks like a casting. besides the house is 32 years old and
    judgeing by the quality of everything else.......
    
                                                    Thanks
                                                      GUY

    Has anyone heard of Vanisol (sp).  While on vacation I couldn't help
    notice how the fiberglass tubs (not new either) looked so fantastic
    everyday that the maid cleaned them. I asked her what she used and she
    stated Vanisol(sp).  She said it is a spray and it helps kill germs
    etc. We were on our way out and I thought I'd get more info when she
    came around again, but I never did see the maid. Seems we were out when
    they came.  Any insight as to where I can get some?
    
    Loraine
    223-3606

    I busted up a very heavy cast iron/enamel sink with HEAVY sledge hammer
    and light canvas drop cloth over it to catch splinters.  This technique
    does work.  However, it may take longer than you think if the cast iron 
    is thick.  Don't get discouraged.  When we got tired of hitting the sink 
    (and it RINGS LOUDLY) we drilled holes and cut it with a power saw just
    to get the crack lines going.  Good luck.

Loraine,

	It would be nice to find out this works. Since we have a high iron
content in our water, the tubs always look lousy. Anyone know?

>While on vacation I couldn't help notice how the fiberglass tubs
>(not new either) looked so fantastic everyday that the maid cleaned them

	I think the keyword is here   ^^^^^^^^. I bet if our tubs were cleaned
everyday they'd look pretty good too. I don't know about your house. We aren't
slobs, but we certainly don't clean the tub every day! :-)

							Mark

If the tubs look bad because of high iron content in the water, there's a 
product called "Iron Out" that works a treat.  Put it and some water on
the stain and it reacts with the iron to remove the stain.  Gentle scrubbing 
helps it work quicker, but isn't mandatory (at least not on horziontal
surfaces).  I bought some at Spags, but I've seen it elsewhere, too.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Maybe use a pencil and DRAW it out..... Just a suggestion.

The binoculars trick is easier - just use 'em wrong-way-around and pick up
the tub with a tweezers and drop it in the trash.

re: .12

Yes, Spag's keeps their sludge hammers just downwind from their air hammers.

   Gary

    Fuller Brush has a product called DISSOLVE that does a great job on my
    tub.
    
    Roberta

    I'm going to be installing a 3 piece tub wall liner in a few weeks. I 
    also plan on tiling above the liner.  My question is, since the liner
    is relatively thin compared to the thickness of the tile above it, how
    would I make these two surfaces look good where they join together.
    also are there any particular caulking techniques for this kind of
    joining (tile above tub liner).
    
    thanx,
    Marc

    I'm in the process of having a 20 year old, pale pink bathtub
    refinished. I've talked to Mr. Tub and Bath Genie  - it costs $200-250.
    Does anyone have any experience in dealing with these two companies ?
    Alos, how did the job look ? I'm also doing a color change - pink to
    white, and hoping that it brightens the bathroom.
    

    	I'm getting ready to remodel our main bathroom and am looking for
    tubs.  Ideally I would like to put in a 2 piece acryllic unit but they
    don't make them and I don't want to use fiberglass.  So, it looks like
    we'll go with a stand alone tub and tile.  One of the things my wife 
    would really like is a deeper tub than the normal 14".  So, I'm thinking 
    of buying a soaking tub.  It's essentially a whirlpool type tub without 
    the mechanicals and jets.  We don't want to put a whirlpool tub in because 
    we will be selling the house in the next few years and don't want to spend 
    the extra $400 - $500 over the cost of the soaking tub.  My question is, 
    since this is an unusual item, how will this be looked on by prospective 
    buyers?  Will it be a bug or a feature or neither?  Any opinions?
    
    George
    
    George

    It likely depends entirely upon the prospective buyer.  A family 
    with small children to bathe would probably see it as a negative.
    An individual or a childless couple, on the other hand, would
    perhaps see it as a positive.  My guess is that on balance, it
    has the potential for more negative than positive...but that's
    just a guess.

	When we built our house 8 years ago we picked up a used cast iron/
	enamel tub, that I considered refinishing at the time.  I even
	did pick up a kit from Hilson's Home Center (South Burlington, Vt)
	to do the job.  But at the time I was so busy with other building
	that I decided against it, and just gave the tub a very thorough
	cleaning and then lived with it since then.

	Now that we have most of the other work done (we work slow ;-)),
	we've decided to look into finally doing something about the tub.
	My wife called a "professional" for a quote and got a price of
	$300.  This is done in the home, takes about a day, they etch with
	acid first, etc.

	Having paid only $35 for the tub, I find it hard to swallow $300
	to have it refinished....  I may go check to see if that kit that
	I returned is still available.  I think that only cost ~$10.

	_gary

    
    
      There's a place in Marlboro, Mass. called Town Paint. I know they
    have a refinishing kit there. I believe they sold somewhere between $25
    and $35. I haven't tried this myself but plan to in the future. I'd
    rather work outside this time of year. They also have excellaent prices
    on all there goods.
    
    
    -Al

    The bath in my new home had little sticky feet on the bottom to stop
    slipping while in the shower,i have removed these and used nail polish
    to remove the glue but two of them the glue was crisp and wouldn't
    budge.Any ideas how to get this off,it's a plastick bath.....
    
    Kat
    

    
    
    would a razor blade work?

    I have a large crack where you step over into my one piece fiberglass
    shower and tub.  The crack seems to be growing (very slow) and I would
    like to know if there is anyway to repair this?
    

      I have a large crack where you step over into my one piece
    fiberglass shower and tub.  The crack seems to be growing 
    ( very slow 12" long now ) and I would like to know if there
    is anyway to repair this?

    Is the crack on the side or bottom of the tub?
    
               |         __
               |         || <- Here?
               |         ||
                \________/|              Somewhere else?
                       ^
                      Here?
    
    Before you fix it, you'll probably want to find out WHY it's cracking.
    
    Edd

    The main crack is here.     
        
                     |        _____ <- Main crack on top center of step over.
                     |       ->| |Hairline crack when pressure is put on
                     |         | |top center of step over.
                      \________/ |
    
    
        The crack may have come from one of the older kids who said they
    did not do anything but lean on top to wash hair!!!!  But who knows..
    

    	I don't remember the name off hand but County Supply in Lowell can
    give you the phone nyumber of a company that may repair such things.  I
    know that they can repair the finish on acryllic units since I had to call 
    them after I whacked my new tub with a hammer. :-( :-(
    
    George

    	Give Acrylic Crafters a call.  They are supposedly one of the only 
    companies on the east coast that will do this type of repair.  They are
    located in Northampton, NH, I believe.  The phone was (603) 964-8957 
    about a year ago...  But they can take quite a while to get back to
    you.
    
    /Tom
    

    I had a hole about the size of a dime and several hairline cracks in my
    fiberglass tub. I called a plumbing supply company and asked for
    recommendations. The guy they suggested was great and you can't tell
    there was anything ever wrong. Since I'm in Atlanta, a referral won't
    help. Try calling a plumbing supply place and ask who they use. It seems 
    they have to get fiberglass tubs repaired quite often due to damage during 
    shipping or installation. 

Question for the plumbers out there:

Is it possible to remove and replace the chromed drain at the bottom of my
shower stall?  The existing drain is very corroded, gross looking, and smelly.

Does this piece basically thread into something below it? If so, what is the
best way (tool?) to uncrew it, given that it is 15+ years old and rusty?
                       
Thanks for any tips ...

Brian

    RE: .4
    
    Can you get under the tub? The piece is held down with a nut under the 
    tub.
    
    Marc H.

    > The piece is held down with a nut under the tub.
    
    Hmmmmm... On both the tub I removed, and the one I installed, the drain
    screwed into the pipe under the tub. That is, the chrome piece visible
    from inside the tub was threaded on the *outside*, and the piece that
    received it (under the tub) was threaded on the inside.
    
    It was easily removed by inserting the handles of a pair of pliers into
    the drain and unscrewing it.
    
    I had no reason to get under the tub for that part of the project.
    
    Edd
    
    

    Re: .6
    
    Correct! I was thinking about the whole assembly. Thanks.
    
    Marc H.

RE. past two:

Thanks. So do I turn *clockwise* to loosen? 

Are these drains standard? Available in good plumbing supply shops?

Brian

    > Thanks. So do I turn *clockwise* to loosen?
    
    COUNTER-clockwise to loosen.
    
    The drain should be easily available. Take the old one with you.
    
    When re-installing, apply a liberal amount of plumber's putty to the
    bottom of the flanged part that contacts the tub surface. After you
    tighten it down the putty will squeeze out and you wipe the residual
    off.
    
    Edd

    I'm wondering if anyone has experience w/ Americast tubs (from American
    Standard) consisting of a enamel-coated steel sheet inside a plastic
    frame. Advantages over cast iron are ~1/2 the weight, less heat
    conductive, more sound damping. However I'm concerned about the
    wearability of the finish. I've heard the Kohler applies its glaze
    by heating the tub nearly red-hot and spraying dry glaze while rotating
    the tub.
                                      

    
    	Does nayone know if its necessary to sand a glazed tile wall before
    applying adhesive and aa tub surround? The instruction booklet that
    comes with the surround suggests that you do so, but the glazed is
    really resistant to even corundom sandpaper. 
    
    	Thanks!
    	Dave

    Looked for a topic on "repair to fiberglass tubs" but could not find
    one.
    
    We have a 60" x 32" fiberglass tub/shower unit that we installed just
    under 3 years ago.  About 1 year ago we installed a shower door
    designed for this unit.  We have had water collecting and dripping thru
    the bottom of the lower track on and off ever since.  The bottom track
    was replaced by me 3 times.  I had posted the  problem under another
    topic and was advised to do a good job using plenty of silicone
    adhesive.
    
    The leak was on the left half of the tub which is a left hand drain tub
    btw.  After 3 times without being able to stop the leak we contacted
    the distributor.  They came out and felt there may be a slight dip in
    the top of the dam (the area the track sits on) which would explain why
    the water would collect in that area and why the track would never seat
    perfectly on this half of the tub.  The manufacturer's rep had come out
    next to have a look.  After several visits from both the distributor
    and the manfacturer, the manufacturer sent a plumber to install a new
    lower track.  The plumber removed the old track and cleaned up the
    surface.
    
    At this point I spoke to him to get his opinion on the condition of the
    dam.  He said there was a definate imperfection where the water would
    collect and be unable to runoff.  He said he could lay the new track
    down but could not guarantee the problem would not re-occur.
    
    At that point I told him not to bother and to inform the manufacturer
    that I wanted the unit replaced, per the warranty.
    
    To make a long story short, the manufacturer has decided to repair the
    area to make it perfectly shaped as it should have been to begin with.
    He will grind down the area and rebuild it.  I was told that the job
    would be professional and I would not see any lines, and the area would
    be stronger than it was to begin with.
    
    They are so confident in their mans work, that they said if we are not
    satisfied they will at that time replace the unit.
    
    We were not happy with them doing this job, and were told that our only
    other choice would be re-imbursement for the tub only, no labor,
    no materials, no shower door.  Just the tub, about $350.
    
    So, left with little choice we scheduled the repair for next Thursday.
    
    Has anyone had experience with fiberglass tub repair work that they
    could share here?
    
    Thanks, Mark

>    Looked for a topic on "repair to fiberglass tubs" but could not find
>    one.

See note 2748.

    I have a cast iron tub that is almost ready to come out.  Just need
    to disconnect the drain.
    
    I was wondering if the tub was worth saving or if I should just smash
    it with a sledge hammer (I know a guy who has a 45lb hammer and I'm
    sure he will let me borrow it).
    
    The tub is 100% functional but does need refinishing to be perfect.
    I am trying to recycle and get a few dollars towards the cost of the
    new fixtures.  I suppose an old cast iron tub (no claws, about 30 years
    old) is not worth much.  Any opinions?  
    
    Thanks, Mark

    Swing that sledge; cover the tub in an old blanket first.
    
    				Steve

>    I was wondering if the tub was worth saving or if I should just smash
>    it with a sledge hammer (I know a guy who has a 45lb hammer and I'm
>    sure he will let me borrow it).
 
	    Swing hard.  Don't forget the ear plugs.  They break much easier
	if you bang on them (repeatably) before dawn.  8^)
	    As scrap iron, an old tub isn't worth much.

					Tim

    	A friend of mine had a cast iron tub "all ready to come out" too.
    After repeated whacks with the sledge which did nothing to the tub but
    did wonders for his neck and shoulders, he got some help from his
    father, and the two of them tried to maneuver the tub down a flight of
    stairs and out the front door. I only wish I could have been there to
    watch. From his description, the three stooges couldn't have done it
    better. Good luck. You're going to need it.

    And don't forget the eye protection!!
    
    Brian
    

    I guess what you hit it with would make a difference.
    
    If it does not break with a 45 lb sledge hammer I will be suprised.
    
    Actually the guy with the 45 lb'r has done this many times.
    
    I'll let you know.  Probably this coming weekend.
    
    Mark

    Turns out that sledge hammer was more around a 25 lb'r.
    
    At any rate the unit was broken into 3 major pieces.  The whole
    job including removal of the 3 pieces took about 5 minutes.
    
    Cleaning the rest of the stuff took about another 30 minutes.
    
    Was able to get 2 cents/pound on those pieces at the local auto
    salvage yard.
    
    Mark
    

     I'm in the process of renovating our 2nd floor bathroom and have the
     following problem.  The trap for the bathtub drain extends approx 2"
     below the ceiling of the room below it (the kitchen.)  We would like
     to remedy this so that nothing extends below the kitchen ceiling.  The
     drain lines were installed from below, so it really isn't possible to
     raise the drain line without cutting too deeply into the joists.

     I thought that it might be possible to place the tub on a platform to
     give the trap enough room, and add an extra bend to the end of the
     trap to connect it with the existing drain (see after picture.)

Before:


  !------------------------------! tub
  !                              !
  !                              !
  !                              !
  !                              !
************|    |**************************************** bathroom floor
            |    |
	    |    |      /-----------------------
	     \    \    /                    drain
	      \    \  /    /---------------------
***************\    --    /******************************* kitchen ceiling
	        \        /
	 	 --------



After:

  !--------------------------! tub
  !                          !
  !                          !
  !                          !
  !                          !
============|    |============== platform 
============|    |==============   
************|    |**************************************** bathroom floor
	    |    |      /---------
	     \    \    /          \
	      \    \  /    /--\    \
               \    --    /    \    ------------------
	        \        /      \                 drain
		 --------        \---------------------
********************************************** kitchen ceiling


     Is this a reasonable solution?  Is it safe?  Does it violate any
     codes?  Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated!

     Bill    

>         <<< Note 5329.0 by XELENT::MUTH "I drank WHAT? - Socrates" >>>
>                  -< 2nd Floor Tub Trap Takes Too Much Space >-

	    I'm sure there are plenty of plumbing notes in this conference
	where you could have asked about this.  Performing a title search
	of Note 1111 can show you where they are.  (DIR/TITLE=1111.*)
	    
					Tim

>                     <<< Note 5329.1 by STRATA::CASSIDY >>>
>	    I'm sure there are plenty of plumbing notes in this conference
>	where you could have asked about this.  Performing a title search
>	of Note 1111 can show you where they are.  (DIR/TITLE=1111.*)
	    
	I looked through the plumbing notes, and did title searches for
	DRAIN, TRAP, TUB, and some others, and found nothing really
	relavent.

	Bill 

So why not just ask another plumbing related question in one of the 
plumbing notes?  Is yours a "special" plumbing case?  Is yours a gold 
plated pipe that can't be soldered without destroying the poor adhesion of 
the gold onto the cheap plastic pipe and should probably go in the jewelry 
conference, instead?  Or is it the fact that your plumbing was done by an 
unskilled craftsman and, therefore, isn't really plumbing but, rather, 
resembles something that belongs on a Super Mario Nintendo screen and, 
therefore, belongs in the Nintendo conference.

come on.  Plumbing is plumbing.

Since you're going to have to repair the old hole in the ceiling, perhaps 
you can duplicate this note and ask how to repair a ceiling that used to 
have a bathtub trap protruding through it.

Mr./Ms. Moderator, please move the base note to the correct topic and delete 
the rest of these useless, (mine included) replies.

I went through this recently; during a bathroom remodelling the plumber
hired by the contractor rigged up the drain so that the trap stuck down below
the joist (into a finished basement.)  He claimed that he was required to
do so by code, but I later had another plumber whom I trusted more look at
it and he said that the first plumber was just lazy; a new, tighter-angle
trap was installed and the trap is now above the joist.

As long as there is the usual vent through the stopper control, I think
what you are proposing should be fine.  But it might be wise to call your
town's plumbing inspector and ask.

					Steve

I think what you've drawn is against code because it can siphon and drain
the trap thus allowing sewer gas back up.

>I think what you've drawn is against code because it can siphon and drain
>the trap thus allowing sewer gas back up.

That was my first reaction, too.  (The siphoning action, that is.)

-steve-

This may be too late but when I took up my floor to redo the bathroom, this
was the trap used, I had to replace it 'cos the bath moved, about $8
at home depot. Its a two ( three including the cap) piece PVC unit, so
you can easily change the angle between the in and out and then welded

------------------------------------------------------------ Sub floor
               --|ScrewCap|--
               |            |
               |            -------------------------------
               |                Out
               |            -------------------------------
               |            |
               |------------|
               |            |
               |            |
               |            |
   ------------             |
    In                      |
   --------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------ SLAB

Hi,
        I am considering having a bathtub insert put in over an old
        cast iron tub. In addition a one piece tub surround will also
        be installed.

        The company that does this is called "BathFitters". The tub is made
        of a thermo molded acrylic as is the tub surround. The material is 
        1/4" to 3/8" thick. The cost is about $1200 which I believe is a 
        lot less than having everything ripped out and replaced.

        Has anyone had this done? Is this a good way to go?

        All opinions/suggestions welcome.

        Thanks.

        Pat

    
    Unless your bath is one major disaster, the 1200 seems on
    the high side.  DIY cost would be under half that depending
    on what you had to do and put in.......
    
    jd

In our house (2x8 floor joists) we have the same situation.  Creative
decorating was used to hide the protruding trap.  The basement is done sort of
rustic w/ barn board and rough-cut 4x4 "fake" timber.  One of the 4x4s was
placed right over the trap and hollowed out to fit the trap.

								_Mike

re: .0, Pat

>        I am considering having a bathtub insert put in over an old
>        cast iron tub.

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly are they proposing to do? Is
this something made to fit inside (i.e. to "jacket") an in-place
cast iron tub? Footed or modern?

Sorry - this concept is a new one to me.

-Jack

Hi,
	I goofed again. I had intended this note as a reply to #737
	and must have pushed the wrong icon on my PC pathworks
	conferencing screen.

	Please excuse this mess.

	Pat

Hi,
	Yes. That is exactly what they do. They take a lot of mesurements
	of the existing tub and then produce an Acrylic liner which is 
	quite thick and much stiffer than a fiberglass tub.

	The wall surround (also one piece) installs over the existing
	tile, wall or whatever as long as it makes a solid foundation.
	No loose tiles.

	The tub is produuced in Canada, Bath Fitters is in Vermont,
	and is made by a process called thermo molding. Basically
	take a big sheet of acrylic, heat it up and wrap it around
	an already formed mold, then let it cool and voila. I'm sure
	I over simplify.

	Pat

    I'm interested if anyone has any recent experience with 
    refinishing Bathtubs and Shower Stalls.  Can this be a DIY
    or should we look for a company (in Southern NH)?  
    
    Thanks for any info,
    
    Linda Nickerson
    MKOTS3::NICKERSON

    I inherited an old, claw-foot tub with the house I bought. The inside's
    okay, but the outside's been painted tan. I can tell that there were
    probably other coats of something under the tan, because, although the
    tan's not peeling, there are bumps and pocks under it indicating that
    a previous layer had peeled. 
    
    I'd like to repaint just the outside. I have about a month to do this
    before the builders are ready to put the tub back in. (It's sitting in
    the hall now, so all sides should be accessible.) The paint guy at
    Eagle swears I can put a regular, latex paint on it. ("Lots of people
    think enamel's different than paint.") Is that really true? The can of
    paint I picked to look at, labeled something like "latex enamel,"
    mentioned that it could be put on lots of materials, but didn't mention
    the metal (iron?) of a tub. Will latex paint withstand the changes in
    temperature that come with hot or cold water?
    
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Cathy

I tried to strip and paint an old claw foot tub but gave up.
I could not strip it with the chemical stuff.  You will laugh at
what I ended up doing but it came out great! ....

I brought my tub to a local auto body shop.  I asked him if he could
strip it (by sandblasting) and paint it (Ford white with Cadillac Gold
legs).  Cost me $100 for the job.   Like I said, it came out great!
Stripped right down to the metal and excellent sprayed on finish.

No kidding,
Larry

>I brought my tub to a local auto body shop.  I asked him if he could
>strip it (by sandblasting) and paint it (Ford white with Cadillac Gold
>legs).  Cost me $100 for the job.   Like I said, it came out great!
>Stripped right down to the metal and excellent sprayed on finish.
    
    Just curious.  Was the inside and outside painted?  How long ago and
    how has it stood up overtime?   How many coats of paint?
    
    Thanks.  Mark

    How often do you have to wax it?

>>    Just curious.  Was the inside and outside painted?  How long ago and
>>    how has it stood up overtime?   How many coats of paint?
    
Just the outside.  I'm not sure exactly how many coats were applied... at
least two however.   We did the Job about two summers ago and it still
is perfect with no sign of cracking... and I have not had to break out
the turtle wax yet!

-Larry

    I second the trip to the local auto body paint shop.  I took the 
    front of my dishwasher in for the same treatment but in Ford black.
    It is holding up real well.  Having the tub done in a red would 	
    be really neat.  I wouldn't go with those bathtub companies though.
    They are EXPENSIVE.  I paid $40 dollars for the front of the 
    dishwasher and don't regret it!   

    justme....jacqui

	Here is an update on my Bathfitter installation to help those
	who wish not to make the MISTAKE that I made.

	I had mine installed in late July of this year. It looks nice
	but since that time I have had to call them back FIVE times to fix 
	leaks in the seams where the wall surround meets the tub liner.

	The major flaw in this system as I painfully now know is that
	the joint between the tub insert and wall surround is a simple
	butted joint whose integrity is VERY dependent on the caulk used
	to seal it. This is not a good thing in an area where water is
	involved as I have discovered.

	I am having them come back ONE more time. If the problem returns
	after this I am having the entire thing (including the old tub)
	ripped out and a true replacement with conventional one piece 	
	surround and tub unit put in. This no doubt will cost me between
	$2000 - $3000 I would guess not counting the $1200 I've already
	spent.

	The painful lesson here is don't put a band aid over a problem 
	that should be fixed with major surgery. There are no short cuts.

	Pat

Re: .5

	You paid that much for a tub surround!!!!??  Your surround
	must be made of granite slabs? :-)

	Before you rip anythng out or purchase anything, be forewarned that a
one piece unit probably won't fit into old construction.  They are pretty
much for new houses where you can put the unit in place before all the walls
are up.  For an already built bathroom you probably need to go with a two
piece unit.  There are a lot of good units that won't have the problems that
you experenced with the tub insert.  Get acrylic, put down a bed of morter
and they are as solid as you could ever want.

George

    	Normally, a bead of good caulking around the seam of the tub/wall
    is not a problem. About the only time I've seen it be a problem is if
    the sheetrock was run to close to the tub.
    
    	There is supposed to be about a 1/4" gap between the bottom of the
    sheetrock and the tub itself. If this is not there, no amount of
    recaulking is going to fix your problem. 
    
    	Ray

If you do get fed up and consider replacing everything, you can save the 
tub and have the walls tiled for a reasonable amount of money.  IMHO, 
nothing beats the look and performance of a good tile job.

    ENAMEL vs SYNTHETIC PORCELIN ???
    
    Hi,
    
    I need to have my bathtub refinished.  I've called two places -- each
    charges the same amount of money ($250) and offers the same
    warranty (5 years).  But they use different methods, and I don't
    know which is better!  Sprayed on ENAMEL or prayed on 
    SYNTHETIC PORCELIN.   Anyone know which is BETTER ???
    
    Thanks.
    Gale

    I bet they're the same thing, but the synthetic porcelin guy is
    trying to make it sound like something other than high-quality
    enamel paint.  But that's just a guess based on absolutely nothing....
    

    re:  the prayed on...

    Probably better if you are a believer...

    
To the moderator, I apologize if I should have added this
    to note 261, please feel free to move it.
    
    Sue

I have an old porcelain free-standing bathtub.  There
were some stains on the bottom of the tub caused by
leaving a rubber mat in the tub for an extended period
of time (at least that's what I think caused it).

Yesterday,  I decided to clean it with Clorox bleach and
water (I've used this successfully on my kitchen sink - porcelain
also).  However, instead of coming clean, the yellowish stain turned 
into a very large brown stain.  I looked in note 261
about the green stain, but this is not green - it\s very brown.

And before I try anything else and make it worse I wanted to
ask here.  The porcelain is very dull in this part of the tub,
but it is not cracked.  Any idea what this might be?

I also tried to call Besco supply, mentioned in 465.5 but their
phone has been disconnected.  Does anyone know of another antique
plumbing supply house?
    
    Thank you,
    Sue
    

Chlorine bleach can cause stains when there is iron present.  


Try using ZUD.  Wet the stain, sprinkle liberally with ZUD, and leave it for a
while.  

ZUD can be found in many stores near the comet cleanser.  It's in a similar can,
but yellow.

    I had the same problem a few years ago.  I used the pink stuff
    for rust (can't remember the name of it though).  Its in a pink
    plastic bottle, very strong, will burn your skin, but it sure
    took off the cast iron rust stains!  I'd put a layer on, let it
    stand for about 1/2 day and rinse thoroughly.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Judie

>    for rust (can't remember the name of it though).  Its in a pink
>    plastic bottle, very strong, will burn your skin, but it sure

Naval jelly

    
    	Peroxide in a 5% solution (hair supply aisle) help me out when we
    did the same thing...I sprayed it on and let it sit overnight. It
    helped but once the finish is gone....

    
    Hi,
    
    	I have a fiberglass tub/shower unit.  The grip bar has loosened and
    	falls out.  The grip bar is approx. 15 1/2" long, approx. 1 1/4" 
    	diameter.  A plastic sleeve fits on each end of the metal bar, and
    	this sleeve fits into the hole (2) of the tub unit.
    
    	I have tried several plumbing supplies stores, and no one has a re-
    	placement part.  The suggestion that I got was to try to re-install
    	the grip bar by using a lot of tub caulking to set the bar back in
    	place.  But how would I do this since I can not get behind the tub
    	to put something in place that would stop the bar from sliding 
    	through the hole?  Also, the sleeve is made out of a very thin
    	piece of plastic that does not fit tightly around the metal bar.
    
    Eleanor
    
    	

    	Since nobody else took a stab at this, heres something that will
    work and look reasonably well. Get some plastic or nylon washers that just 
    fit over the tub bar and slide two of them onto the middle of the bar.
    Posistion the bar so that both ends are in the holes in the tub surround. 
    Slide a washer to each end of the bar and epoxy them in place.
    
    	The washers themselves will obviously be on the outside of the tub
    surround. Short of taking down the tub surround, I don't see any other
    way to do this.
    
    	Ray

    
    Thank, Ray, I'll try this.  I didn't know that there were plastic or
    nylon washers.  Would I find these in HQ or Home Depot or a plumbing
    supply store?  Hopefully I will find something close to the
    circumference of the grip bar.
    
    Eleanor

           I caught the last minute or two of "This Old House" the other
           night, and they were putting some stuff on a bathtub they said
           they got via mail-order... is this the same stuff referred to
           in previous replies?  Does anyone know how it works or where
           one can get some?  What I envisioned is stuff you apply, let
           dry overnite, then peel off and voila, a new bathtub! :-)  
           Is that how it works?
           
           Steve

    
    I believe the stuff that Tom was applying to the tub was just
    a protectant while they work on that room.  It wasn't for
    refinishing the tub.
    
    

    The stuff in TOH was nothing more that a scratch guard -- it was
    not a refinishing product.

    question....i have what appears to be a plastic tub surround in my
    bath. it is a horrible color and i want to change it to white. If i can
    put a new enclosure right over the old one I'd prefer to do that as I'm
    not really interested in getting into removing the old one. if I sand the 
    old plastic surround to rough it up, can i liquid nail my new fiberglass 
    tub surround right over the old one?. it's a given that both surfaces would
    be flat and even.        comments anyone?..........tx....../k

I would rip out the old one.  I don't think it will fit right otherwise.

			Steve

    ....as it turned out...we ripped out the old one...the new one was two
    inches shorter than the old one so that wouldn't have looked to
    great....we got lucky and most of the wall stayed put when we ripped
    the old one out....the new one looks great.................../k

There's a small crack in the fiberglass tub in the main bathroom.  The inspector
who inspected the house for us, told us to get some Phenoseal(?) and seal the
crack to prevent leaks.  He also mentioned that we should drill two small holes
on either side of the crack to prevent the crack from spreading.  He said that
this sealant was gross looking orange stuff, but it would at least stop a
potential leak.

My question - has anyone done something similar?  We are first time homeowners
and are totally ignorant about these DIY jobs. If it is a simple enough job, we
might attempt to do it ourselves ...I am just too scared of causing a bigger
problem than the one we already have!  Also, is there an alternative to having
an orange patch in a grey tub?

--CR.

    I also have some hairline cracks in a shower stall in the house I just
    bought.  The inspector mentioned that any fiberglass repair kit could
    be used.
    
    If you've ever done any fiberglass construction or repair (automobile
    or boat) you can do the same thing to fix a tub or shower and match the
    color.  It actually should be a bit easier than fiberglass construction
    because you should only have to fix the gel coat.  (Unless there is a
    big crack near the bottom of the tub, in which case you might have to
    slap some reinforcement over the crack on the 'outside'.  But in this
    case the repair is in a place where it will never be see, so the color
    and neatness of the repair don't matter.)
    
    If you've never done it before and can read a book and follow
    instructions and aren't a complete klutz, you should be able to make
    the repair.  It's really not too difficult, but it does take a bit of
    manual dexterity.  The resin also usually smells awful, so you may want
    to wait to do this at a time when you can open a lot of windows and use
    a fan to ventilate the area.
    
    Otherwise, you have to balance the cost of the repair kit and the cost
    of the tub with the cost of a professional repair.  The worst that can
    happen is you end up with a really crummy looking tub that you might
    have to replace, but if you don't fix it you'd have to replace it
    anyway.
    
    The color of the repair may depend on how good you are at mixing
    matching colors.  I haven't gone out to look (yet) to see if there are
    pre-mixed repair kits for showers and tubs in matching colors.  If
    there are, then this makes the whole thing a lot easier.
    

Cracks in the gelcoat (along with major dings from rocks, etc.) is a common
problem in the boating community.  There are lots of kits that are targetted 
for this type of problem.  I recently saw a product that claims that, due to
its ultra-thin consistency, is able to penetrate even the smallest of cracks.

FWIW, if you're willing to pay, there are people who do this for a living. 
When I discovered a crack in my tub under warranty, the tub company sent out an
independent tub repair person to do the work.  Check the yellow pages.

Chris

    	Not sure how well fiberglass will stick to gel-coat on a tub, but
    if it's the same as on boats, then you'll want to use a gel-coat repair
    kit, not a fiberglass repair kit.
    
    	The fiberglass kit would work well on the under/back side of a tub
    or stall, but not quite as well on the surface. I've had good luck
    using plastic filler (i.e. Bondo) to fix a hole in a tub, but it was
    above the normal tub waterline, so leaking wasn't as much of an issue.
    
    	My mother had a professional come in and redo a tub for her. I
    don't think it was that expensive and it looked like new when it was
    done. Another option would be to use the Bondo or phenoseal, then get
    some of those stick on things they apply to tub bottoms for a more
    non-skid surface, to cover the repair.
    
    	Ray

>crack to prevent leaks.  He also mentioned that we should drill two small holes
>on either side of the crack to prevent the crack from spreading.  He said that


The drilled holes relieve the stress and prevent the crack from spreading 
further.

If the crack goes all the way through the Fiberglas, use a Fiberglas 
repair kit and drill the ends.

If the cracks are in the gelcoat, use a gelcoat repair kit.

Gelcoat is a glaze that's not really a structural component of the fixture. 
 It's only purpose is to provide a smooth surface.

    Since there doesn't seem to be a "tub surround" note, I'll ask this
    here:
    
    Has anyone ever installed a tub surround made of Corian? If so, what
    did you like/dislike about it? Any gotchas to be aware of?
    
    At local homeshow last weekend, my wife saw a display for them (sample 
    pieces and pictures but no model) and wants to investigate further.
    Personnaly, I thought it looked a little "boxy"...it appears to be made
    up of Corian panels with the edges and seams covered by long rectangular
    'blocks' of the stuff. I prefer a fibreglass or plastic kit myself, but
    I'll likely be outvoted 1 to 1.
    
    Any comments appreciated.
    
    Thanks

    Re: Corian Surround
    
    I own an older cape and the previous owner used corian for a
    surround on our main bathroom. It is very "boxy" looking and our
    only problem, aside from the look, has been contolling the mildewy
    grout. I've had to replace it 3 times in 5 years.....
    
    If there was one project my wife would like me to start in the house
    it would be to replace the corian around the tub....
    
    my 2 cents....
    
    George

    re:355
    
    	Did you seal the grout with a silicone sealer ? Just curious.
    
    	Ray

    
    	I started going through this whole note looking for sizes of
    tubs, but I was running out of time so I'm writing a reply instead.
    I recently purchase a corner vanity and, as usual, replacing my
    bathroom vanity has now turned into remodeling the whole bathroom.
    	Well, its a very small bathroom and we'd like to open it up,
    somehow and maybe get a smaller tub/shower unit.  I have two
    questions: Do tub units come in different sizes or can they be
    made custom size and is there anyone who will come to you house
    and give ideas on how to make the room bigger and more efficient,
    for a small price?  I live in Gardner so someone local would be
    good. oh yeah, I believe my bathroom is approx. 5'x 7'.  Any
    recommendations would be greatly appreciated! thanks  Sue Fleck
    							WMOIS::FLECK_S

    	I think that a standard tub is 5'. Obviously, you can't use a
    one-piece because it won't fit through the door. From what I remember, 
    shower stalls can vary from 30" to 48". With whatever you use, keep in 
    mind that you'll want to leave some access space to get at the plumbing 
    in case a repair is needed.
    
    	One thing you can do is make a scale drawing of your bathroom 
    (i.e. 1" = 1'). Then make scale sized cutouts for the tub/stall,
    toilet, and vanity. Now you can place them where you want and measure
    what's left to see if it's workable.
    
    	One advantage to the stall is that, even in a small room there's
    usually enough wall left to have a closet next to it. This gives you
    needed storage for towels/toiletries, and can also hide, yet give access 
    to, the plumbing.
    
    	Good luck and I hope this helps......Ray
    
    P.S. I'm looking at doing the same thing for a downstairs bath.

In the 1950's my father-in-law was a contracter and built their own home.  In
one of the baths is a tub that takes up a little more room than a shower but 
is about 3/4 of the size of a normal `modern' tub.  It had a small bench built 
into the rear corner.  Perhaps you can locate one at a used building supply 
store and have it refinished.

Judy

You can get 4-1/2 foot tubs.  The selection is small and prices are higher.
Having installed one of these, I would strongly advise you to use a 
standard 5' tub, unless you will never use it for a bath (or everyone in your
family is a "little person".)  Sterling and Lasco are two of the makers
of such tubs.

				Steve

> I think that a standard tub is 5'. Obviously, you can't use a
> one-piece because it won't fit through the door.

	But most likely you could use a two-piece which is as
	maint. free (in regards to worrying about water leakage),
	but does cost about $100 more than the basic one-piece
	($200 for a basic one piece, almost $300 for a two-piece).

	I was able to get one of these babies up to the 2nd floor of a
	130 year old house (ie. relatively narrow door openings), with
	the upper surround piece being the tricky part manuvering it
	like a puzzle through the doorways ....

    The house I just sold had a 48" tub in it, and the owners before me had
    just redone the bathroom: so you could get them less than 8 years ago. 
    It was a modern one-piece, and they put in a surround as well.
    
    It was small as tubs go, but I mostly take showers.  It was a
    reasonable size for a shower (bigger than the shower stalls I've seen);
    and was large enough that could could lie down in it and take a bath if
    you wanted to, which you can't do in a shower stall.
    
    My biggest problem is that I wanted to replace the shower curtain with
    a sliding door, and most tub doors aren't available in a small enough
    size to fit that kind of tub, and a shower stall door would have been
    too high.  It happens that Kohler makes a tub door that fits 48" tubs:
    I think it's intended for some sort of hot tub or spa or whirlpool tub.
    
    If you really don't have room for a full-sized tub, I think a reduced
    size tub is a better choice than just a shower stall.

    	I think my mother's mobile has a 4' tub. If that's what you're
    looking for, it may be a another source to pursue. The two-piece tub
    is what I was initially looking at. It's less expensive than a 48"
    shower stall that I was also looking at. Then again, I also have a 
    6'x10' bathroom, vs. 5'x7'. 
    
    	Ray

> It was a modern one-piece, and they put in a surround as well.

	??  by def. a one-piece has a built-in surround (ie. the tub
	and surround are made in a single mold).  the two-piece I
	bought was similiar, except that the mold is 2 pieces, one
	piece being the tub base and part of the surround, and the
	2nd piece being the rest of the surround that bolts down ontop
	of the 1st piece (hence after you get it into the bathroom,
	after joining the 2 pieces together, you basically have a 1-piece
	(tub & surround) that's installed the same way you would a 1-piece.

ps: do you mean "Moderne" (ie. the brand name made in Canada)?

    I guess I'm not up on the latest slang.
    
    To me a one piece tub is one where the tub and sides are all in one
    piece.  I'm sure I've seen some where the tub is one piece and the
    outside trim down from the edge of the tub to the floor is another
    piece.
    
    I've seen shower stalls that include the walls and floor in one piece,
    but I don't recall seeing a tub and shower surround all in one piece
    (not that I've really looked).

    	The truely one piece tubs will most likely be in newer construction. 
    They will not fit through a typical doorway, so they must normally be
    placed in the bathroom *while* the house is being framed, or at least
    before they completely frame in the bathroom.
    
    	The next best thing is probably the two piece (tub and surround)
    as far as lack of maint./leaks are concerned. It's designed to give
    that one piece look and feel, and fit through regular sized doorways.
    Having seen first hand what they get for ceramic tile, it's also less 
    expensive, and probably just as durable.
    
    	Since shower stalls can come in widths larger than regular
    doorways, they too come in two piece versions (base and sides).
    Just another option to ponder.
    
    	Ray

    	Does anyone have a claw-foot tub on a tiled bathroom floor ? I'm
    just wondering if the tiles would crack with all that weight on 4
    relatively small points, or do you make some sort of feet pads for
    it ?
    
    	Ray

    I have one on tiles and it hasn't cracked any yet.  It was there when I
    moved in 2 years ago.  I suspect it has been there for at least 5
    years.  The tub has only had occasional use, but has stood up to the
    stomping/jumping of my kids (ages 8 - 11).  I think you'd only have a
    problem if there were gaps between the tiles and the subfloor.  And,
    for what it's worth, my house is 220 years old so it doesn't have the
    most steady, straight floors around.  
    
      - Doug

Claw-foot tubs were used on tiles for years without any ill effect.
Unlike most tiles today, those tiles were set in concrete ("mud jobs")
so your mileage may vary.

    
    I'm having a house built and I have a choice between a fiberglas and
    acrylic tub/surround combination. My question is why is there a ~$400
    difference between the two? And is the acrylic worth the extra?
    
    
    Steve B.

    	Just thinking of the two materials themselves, I would think that
    acrylic is the same color all the way through. A scratch or chip would 
    likely be less noticable. I'd also expect the acrylic to be more crack
    resistant, though this shouldn't be a problem with a properly installed
    fiberglass tub of decent quality.
    
    	You're the only one that can decide whether or not the extra $$ is
    worth it to you. Fiberglass is relatively easy to work with and there
    seem to be a few people around that do this if you go with fiberglass and
    have a problem down the road.
    
    	Ray

    The acrylic is more durable.  As .371 states, the color goes
    all the way through and it's less prone to cracking.  Whether
    it's $400 worth of more durable is up to you.
    

I'm installing a one-piece bath/shower in an existing house (through a hole in 
an exterior wall - but that's another story)_and I'm wondering what others may
have used for a foundation material under the unit.  The installation instructions
state that there will be no deflection with weights up to 300 lbs, but the use of
a foundation material to support the bottom of the unit is recommended.   It
doesn't take much water and body to surpass the 300 lb. point, so I would like to
use some sort of casting or foundation material.  I just don't know what it's called
or where you'd get it.  Probably a plumbing supply place would have it, but I haven't
called any place yet.  I saw mention of it in a earlier note, but no real details
on where to get it how to use it, etc.  Maybe a standard lightweight plaster would
do the trick.....

Thanks for any advice.

rob

    	If I where to use anything, I'd probably just use styrofoam
    sheets cut to size. Another thought is to use the expanding foam
    and cut it to size after it expands.
    
    	Ray

    I just saw one of Bob Villa's programs over the weekend where they put
    in a fiberglass tub.  They set it in a bed of lightweight mortar.  I
    didn't see any names, but they claimed that this was what the mfgr
    required for the installation.  My guess is that it's probably a
    standard item, maybe not at HQ or HD, but a good plumbing supplier
    would know what you're after.
    
    Ken

	.373, your lines are all longer than 80 characters making it
	difficult to read for us character-cell noters.

	In any case, the previous reply suggests a lightweight mortor.
	In my case, when I installed a 2-piece fiberglass tub/shower
	I simply used regular $2-3 a bag mortor.  I used either one
	or two full bags, and simply mixed it in an empty joint
	compound bucket.  Plenty of working time.

	The only suggestion I have is to have some other people handy
	when you do it, so they can step in the tub with you to seat
	the unit down into the mortor bed.  I had no one around when
	I did mine, and I'm not a heavy weight, so it was diffcult to
	seat it down.  Oh yea, also have a level handy to level it.

    	re:375
    
    	Was this a regular one-piece tub unit ? The only thing I've ever 
    seen that done on is those larger jacuzzi type tubs. 
    
    	Ray
    

    Ray,
    
    Actually now that you mention it the tub that BV was putting
    in did have a whirlpool setup.  
    
    Ken

>    	Was this a regular one-piece tub unit ? The only thing I've ever 
>    seen that done on is those larger jacuzzi type tubs. 

    While it may not be required for a smaller tub, sometype of a
    base, spray foam, cement, plaster, whatever, goes a long way
    towards giving your tub a more solid feel. It can also cut down on
    the "drumming" noise that you can get with a these types of tubs.

    But first check the installation instructions carefully. Some tubs
    may state that you DON'T do anything for a base and may void the
    warranty if you do. If this is case, then it's up to you what
    course you take.

    Charly