Conference 7.286::home_work

>        - can I get the BBB to arbitrate?
    No, the BBB is just a place that keeps records of complaints so
    others can call up and find out if they have any information on
    a company.  They won't help you in your case.
    
    - can I sue in Small Claims Court?  How do I start?
    You can.  You have to sue the roofer in his own town or county.
    Call Small Claims Court in his county and ask for an application
    to file a claim.  There's about a $7 fee to file it.  There's also
    a limit on how much you can claim.  I'm not sure exactly what it
    is, but its less than $4K.  If you file they'll send a subpoena
    to the roofer.  This subpoena might convince him to fix your roof.
    Once it's fixed, you withdraw the claim.  If your not satisfied,
    you go to court.
    
    - the total job was less than $4k, is a lawyer an overkill?
    I don't think so.  A lawyer will charge between $60-$100 an hour.
    All you want is a letter to let the roofer know you've seen a lawyer.
    It serves the same purpose as filing in small claims court.  Once
    the roofer gets the small claims court subpoena (or a letter from
    your lawyer) he might agree to work out your problems.  It's just
    leverage.  
    

   

      FWIW, I would wait until AFTER you meet with him before pursuing
    this matter through the legal system.  This may only put him on
    the defensive.  Give him a chance first.
    
    -Jim
    

    
    
    	Small claims court has a maximum of $1500.00 for a suit.
    	
    	My advice, after having dealt with many contractors both
    	good and bad recently, is to get him to sign your agreement.
    	Include in this agreement that he must reimburse you for 
        any legal costs that you may incure if the matter does not 
    	get solved in an amiacable way.   The time clause should
    	also help you.  Give him a chance to correct the job, if
    	he does not, I would then have a lawyer send him a letter.
    
    	Hopefully you will get your problem resovled.  Where are 
    	you located ???
    
    
    	Tony

    re: .3
    
    The $1500 limit doesn't mean that small claims court is not an option.
    The damages that you are trying to collect is the amount that you
    would have to pay to get the job done correctly.  That's probably
    far less than $4000.  And even if the damages are more than $1500,
    you may be better off in small claims court, due to the amount of
    time it takes to get a suit to trial in district court, and the
    fact that you don't really need a lawyer in small claims court.
    
    I agree with the replies that advise you to try to work it out
    amicably.  If you get to small claims court and you appear to the
    judge to be totally inflexible or unwilling to negotiate, the judge
    is less likely to find your way.
    
    Clay

    Having done tech support for the last 10 years, I understand how
    important it is to give someone an opportunity to work out the problem
    (VMS bugs, hardware problems!).  I have been very "pleasant" with
    the contractor and have in no way threatened him.  I want to be
    prepared in case things don't work out (I'm the eternal pessimist!!).
    
    Thanks for all the advise.  Send your bills to...
    
    ps. We're meeting on Tuesday, details as they come in...
    
    Chris

    I agree, small claims court doesn't sound amicable.  But legal advice
    early on would be beneficial, I think.  An attorney's input toward
    your self-drafted "contract" might help.  He/she might point out things
    that would protect you more should things go sour.

    Another interesting thing about small claims court, once you win
    (and most plaintiffs do) you may never collect.  If the guy doesn't
    show you win too.  However, I understand the hardest thing is to
    collect.  If he doesn't pay you can go back to small claims court
    over and over again.  If you can work it out one-on-one, do so.

    For future reference, I have a virtually foolproof method of getting
    an acceptable job done by a contractor.  I'm going to let you in
    on this little gem free.  After getting burned "enough" times I
    figured this out.  Give the guy enough money to get the work done.
    Make sure you are holding a significant percentage (50%, 33% or
    so) when the work is complete.  You probably will have to cover
    the cost of materials but make sure you are holding the "labor cost".
    At this point be you have leverage, when you are satisified then you 
    pay, not before.  The best leverage is to be holding the money!
    Those guys get real accomodating when you are unsatisfied and are
    holding their lunch money.

>        For future reference, I have a virtually foolproof method of getting
>    an acceptable job done by a contractor.  I'm going to let you in
>    on this little gem free.  

    Are you also going to let us in on how to find a contractor willing
    to work with a payment schedule set up like that?
    

maybe I was lucky - but when we fixed up our house before moving in -
our A/C contractor, Carpeting guy, Electrican, and Painter
all took most or all of their $ only after the job was complete.  My 
understanding was that this is how they were accustomed to doing 
business, as they took pride in their work, and expected to do a good 
job (as they did).

    When talking to contractors about building a deck/porch on our
    house, all we met said they wanted material $$'s up front and
    labor charges after completion - and it was written that way
    in the contracts they showed us (samples).  is this not the
    norm??
    
    andy
    

    Well, an update, as promised.
    
    We met last night and discussed the issues.  I was prepared with my
    list and my pictures.  He was tentative and defensive at first, but
    soon it appeared to him that I was not just venting emotions and that I
    wanted the problems fixed.  We worked out a schedule and I'll be
    sending him a copy of our agreement for his signature/approval.  He
    left me with a reply to my letter and he indicated that he had no
    excuse for poor workmanship.  I'm taking this to mean that he is
    sincere although I did make him aware that I was willing to pursue this
    further if the situation got worse.  As many of the problems were
    caused by his workers, he has agreed to do all the repairs personally
    and invited my to "supervise".  He also agreed to work on Saturdays and
    Sundays so that I could be available. 
    
    Too good to be true??  I hope not.  He was truly shocked to see
    the problems I had documented and was a little red-faced.
                                         
    BTW - because of complaints, he fired two of his workers - knowing
    my luck they did most of the work!!

    Re: .12
    I'm not surprised that he had to fire a couple of people.  When
    I got my roof done this past spring, the contractor who did it
    said that anybody who was available to help him he wouldn't want
    to hire; anybody who is any good at all already has more than they
    can possibly do.  Your guy probably hired a couple of people who
    were available, and, unfortunately, they demonstrated on your project
    why they were available....

    How do you get your neighbor to paint HIS house?

    Pay for it?
    
    -joet

    Anonymous letter in mailbox (nicely) suggesting it would help keep
    property values up if houses were kept in good repair.
    

    How about it:
    
    	1) Do it for him.
    
    	2) Have his place condemned.
    
    	3) Check to see if the development you are in has any restrictions.
    
    	4) Spray paint obscenities on the front of his house (if he
    	   is really_lazy/doesn't_care this could backfire).
    
    	5) Call every painting/siding contractor in town in *his* name and 
    	   ask for a free estimate.  He might get an idea.
    
    	6) Buy his house, paint it, sell it for a large profit.
    
    Stan

How about

	7) Learn to worry about your own problems, not your neighbors'.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Sometimes your neighbor's problems are yours.  Would you have bought
    your current abode if there was a dilapidated house or junk yard
    next door?  How would you sell your current house if your neighbor
    started breeding pigs next door?
    
    	1a) Get the neighbors together and offer to help him paint it
    	    if he pays for the materials.  Maybe his financial position
    	    has deteriorated (he may work for IBM :-).  This is 1) of
    	    reply 3 restated.
    
    Stan

    
    Don't bother.
    

    If it bothers you, put up the highest stockade fence allowed, plant
    high shrubs or check out real estate in another neighborhood.
    

  I agree with .6; don't bother.  First of all, if the neighbor's place
  is really bringing down property values, you should be able to get a
  break on your property tax.  Second, if your neighbor is ornery enough,
  he might decide he needs to put up a pigsty real close to your property
  line, so be real careful about how you bring up the subject with him.

  Fast-growing shrubbery seems like a good idea...

  JP

    If you want to move to a new neighborhood, do what I did.  Sell
    the house yourself and if anyone asks just say the neighbor just
    bought the house and he is fixing up the *inside* first.  Don't
    ask me why *I* bought the house but the people who bought it from
    me didn't live there very long either.  I know how it feels.
    
    Now I live in a bonafide yuppie neighborhood and it is funny.  There
    are six houses in a row and on weekends everyone will be out with
    a mower or chainsaw or shoveling the driveway at the same time.

    I would choose the fence/hedge route, myself.  But an offer to
    assist him in painting the house wouldn't hurt either (tactfully
    worded).  Once upon a time it was common place for neighbors and
    family to help each other that way.
    
    RE: .7
    
    Ugh, not a stockade fence!  There are much nicer looking fences
    that block views.  Remember that in most towns the nice side
    must face the neighbors property.  My parents had a similar problem
    with a neighbor who built next door to them.  He never landscaped
    the yard (in fact he had trenches in the front yard, so it looked
    like a war zone), and to top it off he was pretty psychotic (the
    first halloween he sat on the porch with a shotgun!).
    
    They ended up putting up a very nice fence with vertical boards
    on both sides (no wrong side) which overlapped in a way that gave
    almost complete privacy (sorry, I don't remember what it is
    called).  They put a very nice garden in front of the fence.
    Since they didn't want the fence to go right up to the street,
    they put up a hedge of Burning Bushes from the end of the
    fence to the street. 

    If you are not familiar with them, burning bushes are fast
    growing leafy bushes which turn bright red in the fall.
    Another suggestion for a fast growing minimal care hedge
    is Holly.  In addition to being a very attractive bush, Holly 
    is quite hardy.  It keeps its leaves year-round, and can 
    withstand pretty heavy pruning.  WARNING - leave plenty of 
    space between Holly and/or Burning Bushes, because they 
    grow to be be large bushes!
    

    RE: .9
    
    Geez, I've been using the "inside first" excuse myself!  I hope
    this doesn't mean my house is an eyesore.  .0 what town do you live
    in???
    
    RE: .10
    
    I was using stockade fence as an example of a fence to block the
    lovely view.  Choose whatever fence suits your particular taste.
    The shrubs is the best way since some of those babies will grow
    tall enough to block a 3-decker.  Also good for privacy, wind breaks,
    leaf barriers, etc.  Just can't say enough about the 8-foot high,
    8-foot wide shrubs (actually topped trees) on the side of my
    house! (from previous owners)

	
	Another of the 'house at the lake saga':

		The prior owner (before me) had painted the
	house PINK when it was pointed out to him that his
	house was becoming an eye-sore.  The neighborhood 
	was fortunate that PINK was the compromise between
	him (wanted *PURPLE*) and his wife (a nice person
	who has since left him).

		I think the fence/fast-growing vegatation
	is a good bet.  Also, reroute you travel so you come
	home from the other side, if possible.

	Bill G.

    RE .1
    	You aren't my new neighbor by any chance, are you?
    
    				=Ralph=
    
    	(I swear I'll punch out the next vinyl siding salesman
     	 who makes a crack about my less than perfect paint job)

    Actually we have been meaning to talk to you about your house Ralph
    but we couldn't decide how.  We knew you read notes sooooooooooo

    If it's bad enough to significantly impact your property values a letter
    from your attorney might prod him into action.  Of course, he could
    simply declare war on you and stand fast.  I don't know where you live
    but here in Massachusetts we have town selectmen who can sometimes
    prove helpful in these cases.
    
    In my hometown in Tennessee the city would contract to paint the house
    in response to enough neighbor's complaints and bill the owner..and
    attach a property lien if unpaid.  Citing that bylaw works most every
    time down there.
              
    Good Luck,
    
    _Mike

    
    RE: -1
    
    OF COURSE!  Call a lawyer, and spend more money on legal fees than
    it would cost to have his house painted!  When in doubt, call a
    lawyer.  It's the American Way! (;-))
    

    Maybe the poor guy is just waiting for all the paint to peel off
    the house so he can stain it.
    
    RE: lawyers/ordinances
    
    Sounds like a law that could easily be contested and thrown out!
    Who is actually being hurt by a house not being painted?  The owner
    could just as easily put up "No Trespassing" signs and enforce it
    when the painters showed up.
    
    Lawyers and stupid laws are turning this country up-side down!

    Re: -.1
    
    Yeah, I felt the same way but in my case it cost about $50 to
    have the lawyer draft and send a letter.  I'd had numerous face-to-
    face discussions with my problem/neighbor and he wouldn't budge.
    
    We sold.  My old place now looks worse than his.  Too bad.
    
    ;^)
    
    
    

    I wonder if the offending neighbor still has a mortgage on the place.
    The banks usually state that the property must be kept in good repair
    as a condition of granting the mortgage.  They may be interested
    in the present state of deterioration.
    
    If the paint is chipping and flaking off badly enough to cause rot to 
    set in, the bank's investment could be going down the tubes.
    
    How long has the present owner lived there ?  Have neighbors told
    you he/she has always let the house go that way?
    
    What are you doing (or not doing) to your property that this neighbor
    wishes you'd fix?  What would your reaction be if he approached
    you to do something about it ?
        
    I liked the idea stated earlier about calling several painting
    contractors in his name, asking for an estimate.
    
    
    
    
   

    I live in "farm country" and we have a neighbor 1/4 mile away (I
    said it was farm country) who's house has needed paint for 40 years.
    It really doesn't bother me but others in the area have expressed
    concern about the shape of the farm. I know the farmers very well
    and since most of us in the area have remodeled or built new homes,
    they have decided to fix there home alittle. It now has an indoor
    bathroom (had a three holer out in the woodshed) All the downstairs
    now has insulation and sheetrock, upstairs is next. The contractor
    is working on the porch now. Last weekend he (contractor) suggested
    the they have the house sided with plastic. Even though siding is
    great I really don't think is should be done with plastic. This
    house is around 180 years old and could easily be done with a stain
    to retain the beauty of a house of that era. It now has cedar clapboard
    that is sound. Some of the trim will need to be replaced but it
    would be a shame to cover the beauty and charm of an old farm house.
    What I mean by charm is that they still cook with wood. The kitchen
    has been redone (appliances and all) but the old Kenmore cooking
    stove has remained. 
    
    That is the story of my neighbor's house that needs some paint. I
    have even volunteered my airless and time to do the spraying. Time
    will tell. 
    
    Jim                                                       

    
    I did a dir/title=laywer and only one came up and that was a reply
    to someones problem at hand that is of no relavance to my problem..
    so..  I'm hoping that this is the correct place for someone to 
    recommend a GOOD laywer that may have experience in problems with
    faulty construction by the contractor.   My parents were having
    a barn built and it collapsed. Now the contractor will not repair
    the structure even after the building inpector has determined the
    problem was the contractors fault.  So.. pop has to fight it out
    with the contractor and has no idea of a lawyer. Any suggestions
    or recommendations of one in the southern NH area ? 
    
    thanks,
    
    Keith
    

    
    	I can recomend a Lawyer in Milford N.H., his name is Tom Enright
    you can call him ot 603-673-1707. I have used him in the past and
    he is currently doing title search for me on a piece of property
    I am buying. You can mention my name as a reference Dick Turosh.
    If you have any further quetions you can call me at 261-2605 or
    NISYSE::TUROSH.
    
                                    :-) Dick

Try the tallis::Real_estate and alien::Consumer conferences.

I can recommend Karen Levitt in Lowell (not quite southern NH, but...).
She's done lots of work for us.  She's even helped us deal successfully 
with sleazeball contractors without having to go to court-sometimes just
the realistic threat of a lawsuit will do the job.  Tell her I sent you.

	(617)454-5511

    Most larger cities have a lawyers referral service and they service
    a fairly wide area, not just the city. They are usually listed in 
    the yellow pages. Look under "Lawyers".

RE: .4

These Lawyer Referral Services are jokes.  Nine times out of ten, they are no
more then a list of lawyers and their specialties.  You simply get the next
regisitered laywer on the list.  You can do that with the Yellow Pages. Usually
the requirements to get on the list are simply a fee. 

Jim.

    
    
    	Andrew Bauer of Gottisman & Hollis in Nashua, is very good at
    	contractor suits.  He is my attorney and personal friend.
    
    	Phone 889-5959.
    
    	Tony Grise.

    
    I am looking for a lawyer in the Gardner, Leominster, or Maynard,MA
    area (you know, along the Rte. 2 commute) to deal with the problems
    in the house I just bought.                                      
    
    Thanks in advance,
    tm
    

> a GOOD laywer that may have experience in problems with faulty construction

  A word of discouragement ...  I asked a friend of mine (whom I would recommend
for any legal matters) if he wanted some free advertising.  He said no thanks.
Many attorneys don't want the "boards and nails" work you have in mind (I think
that's the term he used).  It's too much aggravation for the return - read:
there are easier bucks out there.
  Good luck.

Jon Reckard

re: 1870.8

>Many attorneys don't want the "boards and nails" work you have in mind (I think
>that's the term he used).  It's too much aggravation for the return - read:
>there are easier bucks out there.

Sure there are, for well established attorneys, however, for one building up a 
practice, a diddly case could lead to more work in the future. Actually, an
established attorney could also hope to get more work in the future.

In any business, small accounts grow to larger accounts. Of course, if an 
attorney is fully booked for the relevanttime frame, then you have to go 
elsewhere.

    
    
    	Why don't you call that guy on TV, Jim Suckalot or something
    like that ?
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    	>  that guy on TV, Jim Suckalot or something


    
    he's the one who's after the easy money-  spelled:
    
    		L I A B I L I T Y

    
    
    
    	Hi. I look through Note 1111.* for an appropriate catagory, but
    didn't see one that fit. So here goes...
    
    	I need to find out how to 'pull the deed' to our house. Our house
    is in Leominster, Ma.
    
    	Can I just show up at the Registry of Deeds and politely ask for
    a copy of our deed? Will I get hit for a fee?? If so how much???
    
    	Thanks for any information on this. And if this seems like it
    doesn't belong in Homework I apologize. We need a copy of our deed in 
    order to get a building permit for an addition. There is some confusion
    arround an easement on our property.... <sigh>
    
    Jim Halpin
    

I assume you lost your copy of the deed?  Try asking the lawyer who 
handled the transfer for you if they have a copy of the deed, or at 
least the "book and page number" from when the deed was recorded.

If you don't have the book and page number for the registry, then you'll 
have to guess at when the deed was recorded, and search the books 
(usually microfilm these days.)  The places I've been let you do the 
dearch yourself, but you might have to pay a fee to have someone at the 
registry do it. 

Once you locate the deed, there's usually a small copying charge.  It
shouldn't hurt that bad.  Put the copy someplace safe so you don't 
lose your deed again. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

By the way, I didn't notice if you said where you're located.  If you're 
in Middlesex County of Massachusetts, your deed may have been recorded 
SIX MONTHS or more after your closing date.  That's a lot of deeds to look 
through, so spare no effort at finding the book and page number before 
you go to the registry.
					>>>==>PStJTT

Suggestion:  (what I did before I bought my house):  Go to the Town
hall, to the assessors office.  They will have a copy of the most
recent deed on record.  As well as plot plan, septic plan, assessment
record (what your assessment was based on) neighborhood plot plan,
zoning plan, etc.  All quite interesting documents, and the people
were very helpful.  This may end your search.  In my case, the deed
referenced a number of cryptic easements that caught my attention. 
So, I drove down to the registry of deeds one morning.  Once there,
the most difficult challenge was finding a parking space.  I found the
right counter, gave them the document #s referenced in the deed, and
they gave me the actual papers to go off and xerox at my leisure (in
fact, the lack of "security" surprised me).  
hope this helps
/j

Leominster is in Worcester Co. The Worcester Co Registry of Deeds is
pretty easy to use once you escape the tyrrany of thinking that
numbered books have to be sheled sequentially. 

Take the book and page number down there and look it up. They will
copy it for you for about .50 a page. 

The words on your deed might also be copied word-for-word on your 
mortgage. If the problem is an easement, it is likely not to be 
written in full on your deed but listed only as a reference to the 
document creating the easement. In that case you will have to start 
tracing the property back through earlier transactions. 

Usually a deed less from the past 125 years has on it words like
"...meant to convey the property conveyed to me in book xxxx page
nnnn..." So back you go to book xxxx page nnnn and so on until you
come to the deed with the easement placed on it. All the while you're
rubbing shoulders with land sharks, law clerks, title searchers, and
befuddled home buyers. It is actually quite enjoyable. 

John H.

    
    	Re Time to record a deed in middlesex county
    
    
    	I must hold the record I've been waiting 31 months for my
    deed and have been told by my lawyer it could be 3-4 years.
    
    
    			...Dave
    

    The book and page number may be on your property tax bill...it
    is on mine.  But check at your town/city hall first to see what
    documents they have on file, it should be easier.

    During a refinance, I realized that I didn't have my copy of the
    deed.  A simple call to the bank and bang... a copy was in my hands.
    (I didn't have the heart to tell them I was changing banks though...)
    
    Dan

    a slight aside-
    
    The town may be a good source for original house plans of your home.
    
    Just talked to my town (here in NJ) and they MAY have the house
    plans for my house - built about 30-40 years ago!  They said ALL
    house plans were required to be filed and they will check and if
    so give me a copy!

    	-Barry-
    

I just went through getting a copy of my deed.  The town (Westford) Assessors
office gave me the book and page number of the deed.  I went down to the
registry of deeds at Lowell.  The books were all nicely lined up by number
in big racks along the wall.  For 25 cents a page you could make your own
copy, or you could have them make a certified copy for 75 cents a page (and
about a 5 minute wait).  Whole thing took no more than 20 minutes including
finding out how things worked.  The people working there were quite helpful.

/Dave

    This is by now an old note, but I would like to report happily that
    the neighbor has finally painted his house.  There is a God.
    

    
    Re: .21
    
    Very interesting story.  Could you fill in a few of the blanks?
    
    Did he have to have prodding or did he do it on his own?  Also,
    what kind of a house does he have - a small, one-story easy to
    paint house or a monstrous, multi-story house that usually
    requires a professionsal?  If it was the latter, I know why he
    took so long to paint it, since my house is in the situation his
    was in. 
    
    -tm     

    Let me tell you about MY neighbor.  Last count he had 29 lawn mowers
    rusting in his backyard, along with three refrigerators, two dryers,
    four washing machines, and six cars in various stages of repair.
    When asked about them he says that he plans on "fixin" them up and
    selling them. There are several "stacks" of storm windows and old doors.
    The best part about it is the owner is a real nice guy, makes it
    hard to approach him about the place.  We've tried the subtle aproaches
    such as telling him we'd be willing to help him get rid of the junk,
    to no avail. Any ideas?
                 
    Jeff

    
    RE .23
    
    If the storm windows are those old-fashioned wooden ones for the
    big colonial style windows (~5 feet by ~2.5 feet), I'll take him
    (I'll even pay a small amount for them).
    
    As for the rest of the stuff ...
    Check you town ordinances (call the zoning board, town hall, etc.)
    Our town has an ordinance that says any un-garaged car within 
    60 feet of the road, *must* be registered.  If your town has a
    rule like that, he'd have to get them registered or moved if you
    complained.  I understand about him being a nice guy, but who 
    wants to live next to a junk yard?
    
    -tm
    

    You may also be able to get them removed by having them declared
    a health hazard by the Board of Health or a safety hazard by the
    police.  Where I live refrigerators may not be stored with the doors
    on them.  This kind of situation reflects on a whole neighborhood
    and affects your the property values.  Maybe if enough people 
    mention that his yard is an eyesore, he'll get the message.    

Back in the UK there are plenty of scrapyards which will come and collect
cars / friges / lawnmowers free of charge.  I expect that the same is the
case in the States.  If so just wait till your neighbour goes on holiday,
then ring a few of these yards up and tell 'em to come and fetch it.

Don't try to shame your neighbour into cleaning up his yard - all you will
do is to make him feel insulted and indignant - he'll keep the junk to spite
you.  On the contrary, give him no reason to suspect that the junk bothers
you; then f**k it off when he's not there.

That's what I did  :-)

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

>>                         -< Forget the legal niceties >-

    Hmm. Maybe those stories about how Australia was settled were
    true...
    
    Question is, where do they transport Australians that break the
    law?

    P.S. - lest the humor in .-1 disguise my point, I don't believe
    	   that theft of someone else's property is a reasonable
    	   response to an aesthetic dispute.

    Yea, I kind of agree with .-1, I don't really feel like getting
    arrested over this.  I think I'll go down to the town hall and ask
    for there help.  It's not easy living next to Fred Sanford, even
    if he is a nice guy!
    
    Jeff

    re: .26 ---
    
    My experiences with wreckers is that they demand some form of
    proof that you own what you want them to haul away to protect
    themshelves from getting involved in a thieft.  I wanted to
    have a car hauled away on two different occasions and the salvage
    yards were real sticky on that subject -- like they wanted me
    present when they hauled.
    
    Bill G.
      
    
    

re: .30

Cars are a special case, since they're covered by federal law.  The 
salvage people are supposed to verify ownership and keep the vehicle ID 
plates of any cars they turn into scrap.  With lawnmowers it would be 
very hard to come up with proof of ownership, since they are not 
registered and no reasonable person would expect you to keep the sales 
slip for the life of the mower.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    	I'm in need of a barracuda lawyer to deal with my architects.
    
    - I agree, looking up "some guy" in the American Bar Assn list is
    taking a real chance.  I want the name of a Lawyer who will be very
    agressive, that somebody *knows* is agressive.
    
    Valdeane
     

    re:.8
    
    	Withold money ... Well, that is not working for the contractors
    who are 6 months over due on a 5 month project on my house.  Plus,
    the architects - whose contract states that they are responsible
    for seeing the contractors do their job in a fair and timely manner
    have issued me a summons for nonpayment.   The architects failed
    to execute several portions of thier contract as well.
    
    	I'm looking for s *good* lawyer - any suggestions?
    Valdeane
      

    re: .14 - 
    
    Where are you?  I just came out of a similar situation smelling
    like a rose after having my contract reviewed beforehand by my lawyer
    in Shrewsbury (Richard Ricker).
    
    He was careful to point out what needs to be in a contract and the
    instrument I used (which included a payment plan) got me out of
    a mess with money to spare!
    
    Pete

    I'm in Acton - not too far from Shrewsbury ...  The contract I signed
    October 1986 (yes, 1986!) is the standard AIA document "B151"
    
    I'd like to contact the Lawyer you mentioned in .14, R. Ricker.
     I particularly am interested in a tough $*&! who can take on
    Architects.  Is he that sort of fellow?
                      
    Valdeane
    

    Where are you?  I've heard that Mitchell Gould in Clinton is pretty
    good.  A friend hired him a few years ago and was quite pleased.
    
    When I had jury duty in Worcester, I had a chance to observe a lawyer
    named ... Bagley in action, and he seemed to be pretty much on the
    ball.
    
    Another friend hired Edward Sokaloff (sp?) in Maynard a few years
    ago, and thought he did a good job.

    You'll have a real problem hiring Mitchell Gould because he now
    resides in a Clinton cemetery (he died last year, sorry to report)

    
    Try Mark Schier of Schier, Schier, and Grahm, PC.  They are in Acton.

	I decided to have a deck added to the house.  I made a number
	of mistakes:

	I hired a contractor (mistake 1).  I didn't stop them when I 
	first noticed poor engineering (2), and I didn't stop them when 
	I noticed several additional quality deficiencies (3).

	I haven't paid yet.

	So, what to do?  Pay $2500 for junk work?  Nah.  Pay what
	it's worth?  This has a certain appeal: no need to rip the
	stupid deck off the house, and build my own, even though
	the existing deck is not up to my standards.

	So what's the deck worth?  _That_ is the nub of this note!  
	I have decided to get a disinterested arbitrator to tell me 
	what to pay the contractor.

	Any thoughts on the idea of getting an arbitrator?  Any thoughts
	on how to find an arbitrator?  I figure I'll ask one of the
	lawyers recommended in this note.

	Regards, Robert.

      Do you have a written contract?  Such as a signed (by you and the

I've checked the pointers to legal notes in the conference and can't find
anything that seems relevant.  I have a simple question which I hope has a
simple answer.

How does one do a title search on a home to make sure it has no leins ?

Thanks.
Scott.

2276 contains information about tracking down deeds and easements that may
be helpful.  I don't know if that's the same thing as a title search - 
perhaps someone can clarify here.  Comments about the wisdom of a DIY title 
search are appropriate too, but let's not get carried away...

TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE and MOSAIC::LAWS may be fruitful conferences to try as 
well.  If you find useful information there, please post a cross-reference 
here.

				DCL, moderator

    If you are borrowing money to buy this house, the lender will make
    you pay to have a title search done, and will also make you pay
    to buy _lender's_ title insurance.  You can also purchase title
    insurance for yourself from the person who did the search.  It's
    only a couple hundred bucks; well worth the money in my opinion.
    
    Steve

It's also cheaper to buy YOUR title insurance when you pay for 
the LENDER'S insurance rather than wait till a later date.

daryll

I found out that in Colorado, title insurance for me provided by the seller
is _mandatory_, so I guess the question is moot for me.

Scott.

    Although the bank always has a title search done by either its
    attorney's office, when you apply for a bank loan, if you want to
    do a title search yourself anyway, don't forget to check the probate
    records.  Probate records will reveal whether there has been a divorce
    or death, etc. which might affect title.  
    Also, I believe that in Middlesex County, Probate records are located in Cambridge,
    even if your deed and mortgage are located in Lowell.

                        

  Our neighbor burns wood in her wood stove, as a supplement to her otherwise
electric baseboard heated house.  Unfortunately for us, the smell of the 
burning wood and other unknown combustion by-products coming out of her
chimney enters our house, and bothers us, especially my wife.  We can feel
the stuff in our lungs after breathing it at times, and at certain times,
the odor is pretty obnoxious.  Her chimney is maybe 40-50 feet from our house.

  What can be done about this problem?  Is there some sort of filter or
catalytic convertor on the market that will filter out these obnoxious fumes
so that we won't have to smell/breath this stuff?  She has a right to burn her
wood stove, but we have a right to clean air in our home too.  

  Any suggestions as to how to remedy this?

  Thanks, 

  Steve

    
    You might check to make sure her chimney is up to code.  Usually
    they have to be so high above the roof ridge line.  The higher it
    is the less likely the smoke will come down and bother you. 
    
    If it were cheap to get the pollutants out of wood smoke they'd
    make everyone do it.  Good luck.  I sympathize.  We got rid of
    our woodstove because family members kept getting respiratory
    problems.  We've had no such problems since getting rid of the
    stove.
    					- Vick
    					

	re: .0

	There's no cheap way to 'clean up' a stove's output if it wasn't
        designed to be a clean burner in the first place. Legislation in
        Colorado and one other western state have caused stove
        manufacturers to be more careful in the designs so some units can
        burn exceptionally clean without afterburners. 

	Short of trying to convince you neighbor to replace her stove with
	a cleaner burning one, there's little that can be done cheaply. I
	have a catalytic combustor add-on that, 6 years ago, cost me $100.
	I have since gone through one element at a cost of about $85 and am
	using the latest replacement which ran $92 with shipping. As you
	can see, these things aren't cheap. However, they reduce creosote
	condensation by up to 90% and reclaim the energy going up the flue
	to the tune of some 50%. You may be able to convince her that
	investing in these devices will save her money in the long run and
	be safer to boot. While it won't clean up the air completely, it
	will be less obnoxious.

	re: .-1

	As far as chimney height is concerned, there is a minimum
	height requirement. Simply stated, the top of the flue must me at
	least 2' above any portion of the house that is within 10' of the flue.
	Unless her flue is not within these guidelines, there probably
	isn't much that can be done. No matter what approach you attempt,
	it won't be without expense.

    
    I go through the same thing with my neighbor. If I go outside to
    shovel snow or something I practically vomit from the obnoxious
    and sickening smell from his stove. I don't know what he burns,
    maybe rat turds, but it stinks! He has cut down a little on the
    wood burning since I mentioned it too him but then I have to put
    up with my wife's cigarette smoke when I go back into the house,
    so I can't win. So, I might suggest that you mention it to your
    neighbor and see what happens. She'll either do something about
    it or she'll tell you to get lost, but you should say something
    to her...
    
    				Hoza
    
     

   I dropped by to talk to my neighbor about the smoke problem yesterday.

   I explained the problem we were having, and asked a few questions.

   She says her stove has a "catalytic combustor", but she doesn't use it,
   because she claims "the stove doesn't burn as hot" and "fumes come into
   the house when I use it".  She says this thing does not have any 
   changeable filters as mentioned in note 14.  I wonder if the "catalytic
   combustor" is working properly?  She doesn't exactly seem to be a  
   Rhodes scholar, so I wonder if she knows how to operate the thing.
   
   Based on this info, would the "catalytic combustor" do much good?  Or can
   another type of filter be added to the flue?  I'm predicting that I may
   have to diagnose the problem for her and get her to implement a specific
   solution, otherwise she will just let slide.
   
   She also said she won't stop using the stove, but would check the
   catalytic gizmo again, and talk to her boyfriend to see if he can help.
   So for now, things are still on a friendly basis.  But it I don't see
   any improvement in about 2 weeks, then I want to take the next step.
   I don't know exactly what the next step is, right now.

   In the meantime, I've contact the town Board of Health to see what they
   can do, they said they would have some info today.  

   Steve

All of the wood stove catalytic converters that I know of work by burning the
wood more completely.  This results in a hotter, less smelly fire for a given
amount of wood.  Suggest to your neighbor that you will both be happier if 
she has this thing fixed (or properly installed, as the case may be).

(The catalytic converter will improve the emissions, but not entirely remove
the woodsy aroma.)

Margaret.

There is a bit of a learning curve when it comes to getting your catalytic to
run properly, not to mention learning to run your stove properly.  I speak from
experience.

    I concur with your approach of trying to keep it friendly and at the
    same time, check with the local Board of Health.  Find out what your
    rights are before you try to assert them.  This could escalate.  I
    personally don't think it's her "right" to burn wood if it is causing
    air pollution for the neighbors.
    
    You might also want to check with the building inspector about proper
    wood stove installation...to include chimney clearance.  I don't recall
    this in previous replies, but is she using the existing chimney flu or
    is she using a separate flu system?  If a separate flu system is she
    using insulated pipe on the outside of the house?  It's possible if the
    pipe is not insulated the exhaust could be cooling off too soon,
    causing it to drop instead rise when it exits the pipe.
    

re         <<< Note 3648.7 by IAMOK::DELUCO "Place clever phrase here" >>>
    
>    this in previous replies, but is she using the existing chimney flu or
>    is she using a separate flu system?  If a separate flu system is she
>    using insulated pipe on the outside of the house?  It's possible if the
>    pipe is not insulated the exhaust could be cooling off too soon,
>    causing it to drop instead rise when it exits the pipe.

          Since the house was built with only electric heat, there is only
     one chimney, used for the wood stove in the basement.   In other words,
     the wood stove is the only thing on this flue, and yes, it's on the outside
     of the house, not in the middle of the house.

          The chimney is a cinder block type, not brick.  Inside is a flue
     of some sort, (ceramic pipe?) because I can see it sticking up out of the
     top of the chimney.   

         How do you tell if the pipe is insulated or not? 

         Another tidbit:  the house was built about 10 years ago, with as many
      corners cut as possible to cut costs, so if something like a properly
      insulated chimney would have cost more, I'd believe it.  (why else
      would somebody install electric baseboard heat??)

    Steve

re   <<< Note 3648.6 by PAMOLA::RECKARD "Jon Reckard, 381-0878, ZKO3-2/T63" >>>
>                            -< Learn the catalytic >-

>There is a bit of a learning curve when it comes to getting your catalytic to
>run properly, not to mention learning to run your stove properly.  I speak from
>experience.

      Thanks.  Would you care to insert a procedure one could use to get the
      catalytic to run properly?  Or can someone point to a procedure somewhere
      in the conference?

      Steve

      From  your description of what your neighbor said it might be that
      the catalytic converter is bad.  This  could  happend  because  it
      simply  wore  out  over  several  years,  or  it  could  have been
      destroyed by improper use.  She should read the instructions  that
      came  with  her  stove  and follow them.  If that doesn't work she
      should ask for help from the stove dealer.
      
      If  I  understand it (always in doubt) catalytic converters can be
      damaged if the fire isn't burning at moderate  to  high  heat.   I
      think most converter equiped stoves have a mechanism to bypass the
      converter when lighting the stove or running at a low heat.
      
      If  the  converter is working properly your neighbor will get MORE
      heat, not less, by using it. I forget if the stove was designed to
      use a catlytic converter or if the converter was an add-on. If the
      stove was designed to use a converter then it is the STOVE that is
      not working properly, not just the converter. In this case I would
      be concerned that the stove may be a fire hazzard.  I hope this is
      not the case, but it could be.  Wood stoves ar not toys!  They are
      appliances in the same class as oil and gas furnaces.   Just  like
      furnaces,  wood  stoves  that  are  not operated properly are VERY
      dangerous.

    For what it's worth, in my town (Hudson, MA), all stove installations
    have to be approved by the Fire Inspector, and those that are not UL
    listed need not apply.  You might want to check for some similar
    ordinance in your area, under which your neighbor could be compelled to
    get it set up properly, or remove it alltogether.

    re.11
    
    
    	Since that's my town too,   does that rule apply to fireplace
     stove inserts going into an existing fireplace?
    
    
    		CP
    

    re..  built cheap because it had electric baseboard heat.
    	Whoa, ten years ago was the second oil crisis.  The price of oil
    was projected to go over $2.00 per gallon.  Electicity (with nuclear
    and Hydro Quebec coming on line) was projected to be the cheaper fuel
    source.  Most of the houses in southern New Hampshire were built with
    electric heat during this time.
    	Now to your question concerning the smoke from the wood stove...
    First, contrary to what others have implied, there is NO right to clean
    air.  If such a right existed there would be no acid rain and no smog
    in Denver or Los Angeles.  What you have here is a problem similar to
    people moving next to a farm and being annoyed by the smell of the
    manure pile.
    	There is very little that you will be able to do about the
    situation through "legal" channels.  As far as I know, there is no
    legislation requiring scrubbers to be placed on private dwellings.  
    Therefore, you can change the situation only through the cooperation of
    the neighbor.  Either the neighbor will pay to reduce the smoke that is
    annoying you or perhaps you could pay for the equipment.
    	Taking things to the local town boards will probably get you
    comments like "If you are allergic to the smoke why did you buy the
    house???"  You see, most of these people will probably have stoves and
    fireplaces and probably not be too sympathetic.
    	One of the things that you might do is to contact a local landscape 
    architect and see what kind of trees/windbreaks could be installed to
    change the effect/direction of the prevailing winds which bring the
    smoke your way.  This would seem to be a positive step in trying to
    solve your problem.
    Ric

    RE: .13, actually that's not entirely true. In many areas of the
    country, regulations have been imposed in the use of wood stoves
    because of pollution concerns. I also read recently that new stoves
    will have to meet some sort of efficiency standard.
    
    Eric

    
    re .13
    
    Yup. The new 1989/90 stoves will have to meet certain standards
    on clean air. They can do this either with a catylist or otherwise,
    just as long as their stove meets the standard they don't care how
    it's done. However there is nothing you can do to existing
    stoves/chimneys. They fall under the grandfather clause under these
    new standards.
    
    Mike

    You may want to take note of trees and other objects in the area 
    Trees and houses have a tendency to direct air, smoke in your case.
    You may find that things you or some other neighbor has done could be
    forcing the smoke down (even down wind objects).
    
    Often people run their stoves starved for air this causes lots of smoke
    and cresote built up. The main reason this is done is to get longer
    burn times with the belief that they get more heat (not true).
    
    Check to see if you neighbor has a magnetic chimney thermometer on the 
    flue pipe. If not buy her one as a belated Chistmas gift for a couple 
    of bucks and tell her she should try to keep the temperature in the safe 
    zone to prevent cresote build up and chimney fires. It will also help 
    her burn more efficently and reduce the smoke. If you work with her you 
    may find a temperature that produces "clean" smoke. 
    (I run 250-300 F flue temp and 150-250 F 1" above stove top for best 
    results that equals 900-1200 degrees in the fire box per mfg.) but every 
    stove is different.
    
    Find out if she is burning season hardwood. Green wood does not burn
    well in stoves not designed to burn it and will cause cresote build up.
    
    Recommend she contact MASSSAVE for an engery audit or offer to help
    get the house more weather tight, especially the basement where
    the stove is. If less heat is lost the less wood will be needed 
    making for less smoke. BTW if the house holds heat well two or three
    short hot fires during the day will keep the house warm and reduce the 
    smoke and cresote build up.
    
    Also I would go easy on the building code route as stated earlier in Mass 
    the height is 2 ft above adjacent structure in 10' radius. Trying to push
    the code will not buy you anything but an upset neighbor that will start
    to burn tires in her stove.
    
    You could offer to pay to raise the chimney or if all else fails you 
    could always offer to pay her electric bill ^|-
    
    good luck
    
    Don
    
    BTW  NON UL appoved stoves are grandfathered in MASS. 
             

    As far as correct wood-stove operating procedures are concerned,
    especially when using a catalytic combustor, check out OLUT::STOVES. 
    That's their specialty.  (If I do this right, you can hit your keypad 7
    key to add that Notes conference to your own personal notebook.)

    Assuming everything's installed correctly, there's no reason to "give
    up" on one's catalytic combustor, or blame all manner of ills on it. 
    Various stoves do it different ways, but the combustor is designed to
    clean the air - not necessarily the way it *looks* (although that
    happens too) but what it has in it - sulfur things, carbon things, and
    other technical stuff like that.

    You might suggest giving Vermont Castings / Consolidated Dutchwest a
    try.  They have a 800 HELP number, and I believe you can request their
    free and _complete_ catalog which has lots of helpful advice as well. 
    1-800-227-8683.  (They're very busy this time of year!)  A local wood
    stove store should help, too.

  Re: < Note 3648.16 by IOENG::MONACO >

  The latest I've read on the subject of creosote buildup is that it 
  is a function of "air starvation" and has very little to do with the 
  type (hard or soft) wood or how dry the wood is.  Of course, you will
  get more heat out of seasoned hardwood because less energy is used to
  boil off water in the wood.

  I too doubt that you get more total heat out of an air-starved fire
  but that is really beside the point.  People try for a long burn so that
  the stove is still giving off some heat when they get around to stoking
  it (e.g., overnight or after a day at work).  You generally accept the
  price of creosote buildup but you avoid problems by burning the fire
  as hot as possible for 20-30 minutes after you stoke it.  This burns
  out the creosote before it gets the chance to accumulate to the point
  where a damaging chimney fire can occur.

  Re: catalysis

  I've never used one of those catalytic thingies but I've read that it
  is possible to poison the catalyst by burning colored paper (e.g., the
  advertising flyers that arrive with the newspaper).  So your neighbor's
  unit may have stopped working long ago.
    
  JP             

	re: .18, catalytic afterburners...

	The catalytic elements are essentially the same as those used in
	your car. *ANY* heavy metal can poison the element rendering it
	useless. It is also true that burning colored papers will degrade
	the converter as they use various heavy metals to get the desired
	color. From what evidence there is in this file, you neighbor may
	well have used some chemical flue cleaner rather than manually
	sweeping it out. These, too, are damaging to the converter elements.

	However, one can test the catalyist quite easily. Remove the
	element and set it, on end, on a non-combustible surface. Take an
	ordinary propane torch and play the flame on the element until it
	begins to glow. Turn off the flame and *CAREFULLY* play a jet of
	propane against the hot element. If all is working well, the glow
	should increase without the need of a direct flame. If this dosen't
	happen, the element is defunct.

	If this is so, it is the reason for her complaints about the stove
	smoking when the element is engaged.

	Chris

     Thanks to the folks who are offering assistance in solving this problem.

     I went over again last night and spoke with my neighbor.  She was 
     quite defensive at first, but I tried to assure her that I was not
     taking an adversarial position, and that together I believe we can solve
     this problem.  She then seemed to calm down a bit and became cooperative.
     I asked if I could check out the stove.

     She said its 3 yrs old, and she got it through "mail-order".  The
     brand name in the front is "Federal Airtight", who I have never heard of,
     she says they are out of Plymouth, MA.

     It turns out she wasn't using the catalytic convertor at all, simply
     leaving it disengaged.  The stove usuall runs at a temp of around 500F.

     On my request, she engaged the convertor.  A litte smoke came out of
     the side (where the wood door is) but an adjustment of the flue made
     the smoking cease.  The the temp started going up, higher than she says
     she has ever seen it go.  It went up to about 1150 F, where it stabilized.

     So her fears of the stove not burning hot enough or smoking appeared
     for the moment to have been unfounded.  We agreed that she would try 
     leaving the convertor engaged for 2 days to check its operation,
     and I could check the chimney output.  So, we are in experimention, now.
          
     For the next couple hours it seemed fine, until she opened the door to
     toss in more wood: she said that smoke came into the basement, so she
     had to disengage the convertor for a couple of minutes while loading.
     Of course, this gave our house a blast of smoke.  Then she re-engaged
     the convertor.  According the users manual, to prevent this, the door
     should be opened *slowly*.  So, this is another experiment she'll try.

     She hadn't looked at the users manual since she bought it, but managed to
     find it and is supposed to be reading to learn more about how to operate
     it.

     So, I hope we're on the right track, I'll print out some of the suggestions
     to try this weekend if this doesn't pan out.

     Steve

    Since all the attention is on your neighbors woodstove, chimney,
    installation, coverter, on and on and on, why are you having so
    much infiltration of her chimney smoke? It would seem to me that
    you must have some gapping holes in your house to have that level 
    of annoyance. Is there any opportunity to tighten up your house on 
    your neighbors side to reduce in incoming smoke/smell? It may be a 
    simple tube of caulking around the windows is all thats needed. 
    Something else to check out, I burn coal (Does smell terrible when you
    load it) and I was getting a down draft into my fireplace flue 
    which I don't use. The odor was coming in through the fireplace itself.
    Since I don't use that flue I blocked it off and I no longer have the
    problem. Does your neighbors smoke come in proximity to your flues
    and do you have a fireplace that you don't use? You may be smelling 
    your neighbors chimney smoke via downdraft from your chimney if you
    have one. 

    Federal airtight is a Consolidated Dutchwest Stove, she can call 
    the help line in .17.... 
    That should be a very clean burning stove when she runs it properly
    with the catalytic converter working....
    
    Jean

	re: .20


	That stove she has is sold by Consolidated Dutchwest, a fairly
	reputable company. The stoves all seem to work as advertized *if
	you follow the manufacturer's directions.* As you are finding out,
	she's completly ignored the booklet that was shipped with the stove
	and/or is listening to her boyfriend who seems not to know what he's
	blowing smoke about either (no pun intended).


	CDW stoves are rather clean burning, so once you educate her, your
	problems will surely diminish...

	Good luck

    Re .18
    Yes that what I said air starvation, and I believe I may have read a
    similar article, and don't dispute it, however there are other factors. 
     
    As for dry vs wet (green) if your stove is not designed to burn green 
    wood then you will have cooler temperatures in the stove and the cresote 
    forming products in the wood will not burn. You will also have cooler flue 
    gases due to the water being burned off. The cooler the gasses the sooner 
    they will condense ie before leaving the chimney causing cresote build up. 
    BTW you boil off more that just water from "green" wood.  
    
    I have a stove designed for burning green wood when the temperature gets 
    right a secondary flame wall will form across the top refractory plate 
    and the temp will jump 50 F, before that happens all that stuff is going 
    up the flue without being burnt. (I suspect this is similar to what
    happens in the combusters of the newer stoves)
    
    As for "soft" wood I do burn it and I do get more build up when I burn
    it. (I will be happy to trade a couple of cord of pine for a cord of 
    good oak fire wood) Again I believe we are fighting the temperature problem
    with "soft" wood  It burns quickly and only maintains optimum heat for a
    short time which puts you into condensing flue gas area for most of the
    burn. I mix pine and hard wood to maintain the stove temperature.
    BTW  On some stoves cranking the damper open to let more air in can 
    actually cool flue gases.
    
    As for the short hot burns vs long burns if your house is ENGERY
    EFFICIENT a short hot burn will keep it just as warm as a long slow 
    cool air starved cresote producing burn. 
    If (H) amount of heat is produced in both cases and heat loss (L) for
    time (T) is equal to or less than (H) then the house will stay warm. 
    Maybe more so because an efficient house will have fewer drafts and 
    more moisture in the air.
    
    Have a Happy New Year
    
    Don 

  Re: Don

  Ah, interesting stuff.  I think the article was in Consumer Report a
  year (or perhaps two) ago.  I bow to your superior experience with
  hi-tech stoves designed to burn green wood.  My stove is a vanilla
  Fisher (now out of business, sadly) Baby Bear.  And once I tightened
  up my house, I sort of left the wood heat business and started burning
  oil -- with prices around $1.50/gal, I may soon go back though...

  That's also an excellent point about an open damper on some stoves actually
  cooling the flue gases.

  Happy New Year indeed,

  JP

re <<< Note 3648.23 by BEING::PETROVIC "Looking for a simpler place & time..." >>>
>        The stoves all seem to work as advertized *if
>	you follow the manufacturer's directions.* As you are finding out,
>	she's completly ignored the booklet that was shipped with the stove
>	and/or is listening to her boyfriend who seems not to know what he's
>	blowing smoke about either (no pun intended).
>
>	CDW stoves are rather clean burning, so once you educate her, your
>	problems will surely diminish...


         Well, .23's assessment has proven correct.  Since my neighbor started
         using the catalytic combustor last Thursday, the smoke problem has
         ceased to exist.  In addition, she's glad I pointed this out to her,
         since she'll save wood and deposit less creasote in her chimney.

         Thanks for the help, now I understand how wood stoves work, 
         (and so does my neighbor)
         
     Steve

Glad to hear of the pleasant outcome.

Mods:  Can this be cross-referenced to some topic like:
LEGAL_OR_HOW_TO_GET_ALONG_WITH_NEIGHBORS?

(only partly tongue-in-cheek)  

    It has the keyword LEGAL_SURVEYING&TAXES associated with the topic.  At
    this time there are no other keywords which would indicate the
    sentiment of LEGAL_OR_HOW_TO_GET_ALONG_WITH_NEIGBORS.  Unless you count
    DEALING_WITH_CONTRACTORS but this note doesn't really address any
    issues around contractors.

    If you feel a need for additional keywords, you can post a reply to
    note 853 requesting new keywords.  The success of new keywords rests on
    the outcome of a general polling of the readership.

    Bruce [moderator]

	I have a question on an easement, more specifically the removal of one.

	Our initial septic design included a future expansion area for a
leaching field, in case the primary one fails. This is a requirement in my
town (Bolton,MA). Because of the position, and results of the percs and deep
hole tests, the use of this area would require fill to be placed on
my neighbors lot (tons!!!).

	We needed occupancy and couldn't do new tests until the following
Spring. So, our neighbor was nice enough to give us a fill easement,
along with an agreement that we would redesign our system when possible
to remove the easement.

	Well, we have a new, approved, design which no longer requires the
easement. I'd like to have the easement removed/cancelled. Ideally I'd
like to do it without involving my lawyer since this has already cost us
enough money.

	I am very familiar with the Registry of Deeds. And, I would be
comfortable doing this myself once I understand the steps. Logic tells me
that all that should be required is to somehow notify the Registry that
the easement should be deleted or canceled. But given that the government 
and lawyers are involved, logic probably doesn't apply.

	Has anyone out there ever removed an easement? If so, could you
please outline the necessary steps?

							Thanks,
								Mark

I know that one of the moderators has given this note his blessing, but
I think it belongs in REAL_ESTATE.

      I offer two suggestions;
      
      1)  Spend  the  money  for a lawyer.  The problems that this could
      avoid are well worth the cost.  Your neighbor might even insist on
      using  a lawyer.  (Not a matter of not trusting you, but rather of
      being really careful with something as important as your home.)  
      
      2)  You  say  you  are "very familiar with the Registry of Deeds".
      Well, why not call the registry and as if they can/will guide  you
      through  the  process?   (Depending  on  their answer I might even
      change the opinion stated in #1!)

    RE: .0
    
    Your neighbor was nice enough to allow the easement.  He is concerned
    because it is often difficult to transfer land that has your type of
    easement.  I recently had to get an easement released.  Since you
    appear to be on good terms,  write up a simple document releasing the
    easement and have a lawyer check the wording.  This should cost less
    than $100.  You can then register the signed and notarized agreement
    and you are done.  Having the wording checked will eliminate the
    possibility of problems later on.
    
    Dan

The easiest way to save on legal costs is to do the grunt work yourself, while
saving the legal work for the lawyer.  So the advice in .3 is right on target.
Reviewing the contract should be done by someone with legal expertise, but
there's no point in paying someone a lawyer's hourly fee to do the actual 
filing.

   Gary

    See note 542.* in TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE (uneasing an easement).
    
    -al

Thanks for all the suggestions. 

My familiarity with the deed process/Registry is from doing exactly as the 
previous reply stated; using my time to record/research documents rather than
paying a lawyer to do so.

Looks like I will hire a lawyer to review the document I will put together to
get rid of the easement. I had hoped it might be something as simple as 
recording the previously recorded easement as no longer applicable. Obviously
not. The lawyers couldn't get more business if it were that simple. :-)

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

							Mark

    RE: .-1
    
    Don't add more complication than necessary.  The document should state
    clearly that the easement listed in deed #x recorded in Book y on page
    z is no longer required and thus is voided.  The suggestion that a
    lawyer look at it is to insure that the wording is such that noone can
    challenge it later.  BTW it shouldn't cost more than $50 or so for the
    lawyer.
    
    Dan

I have an internal painting problem and would appreciate any advice.

The kitchen and bathrooms in my house were wall papered when the
house was built. A year or so ago, I removed the wall paper in the
kitchen and painted the wall with a couple of cats of oil based
primer, followed by a single latex paint (Sears). This still looks
very good. 

A couple of months ago, I decided to do the same in the bathroom.
When getting the paint at Sears, I asked for paint recommended for
high humidity and got the salesman's advice. When I asked for oil
based primer, he told me latex based primer was just as good and,
again, I took his advice. 

A day after application (and before the paint had a chance to
experience moisture), the wall accidentally got scratched. The new
paint peeled off. It was easy to peel off patches, like peeling off
a gummed label. There is no question either the primer or the paint
were defective. 

Knowing that if I personally went to Sears, I'd murder the guy, I
did the manly thing and sent my wife. She told Sears she expects
them to correct the direct damage: send someone to remove the paint
and furnish us with replacement rollers and such. After giving her
the normal runaround, they finally said that they are responsible
for nothing except giving us another gallon of primer and paint.
They did concede that it was possible the material was defective

I am going to sue Sears, but it is clear that if I want to regain
the use of the bathroom, I have to do something myself. I am faced
with the enormous problem of stripping the walls down to the
condition they were in before being touched by the Sears
primer/paint. The question is, how? I don't see myself standing
there, peeling the paint piece by piece, Is there another way? 

-- Ron

    I just stripped wallpaper and painted.  I spent hourse scrubbing paste
    residue from the walls, and then painted with latex paint.  It is a
    pain to put it mildly.  There was still residue in some places and
    the latex paint will come away like dry strip wallpaper.  This with
    two different brands of paint (in two different rooms).
    
    I will never put latex paint right over previously papered walls
    again.  I intend to use an oil based primer.  Therein, I believe
    is the problem.  Latex paints seem to have very low adhesion to
    some surfaces ... in this case it doesn't adhere to the wall, but
    rather to the glue residue, which is actually quite impermeable
    unless wet.  On the other hand, oils seem to have better adhesion
    to these kinds of surfaces and are therefore better primers.
    
    So, bottom line is that I believe the only case you have is that
    they did not make a good recommendation when suggesting a latex
    primer.  I don't believe you had faulty paint based on my results.
    (I swore at my paint too ... Para and Sears (Canada) but when two
    different paints behaved the same way, I knew it had to be something
    else.)  And since so much depends on preparation (the areas I had
    trouble with were areas I wasn't so careful about prep) I think the
    best you'll get from Sears is replacement paint.
    
    Stuart

Re: .1 and .2:

First, my complaint with Sears is not as the vendor who sold me the
paint, but as the manufacturer of the defective product. 

Second, under Mass. law, the act of selling implies that the
manufacturer warrants the product to be usable for the purpose for
which it was purchased. Paint that peels as soon as it dries does
not meet this requirement. 

I understand that the manufacturer cannot be liable for incorrect 
use of the product by the customer. However:

1. The kitchen walls in the same home, painted with Sears paint,
   have presented no problem after more than a year. 

2. I used the same approach on the bathroom walls. First, the wall
   paper paste was removed in it's entirety, all the way to the
   bare plastered wall. This took repeated application of the paste 
   removal solution, until the walls were definitely clean. Second,
   the wall was washed with a vinegar solution and sandpapered smooth.
   I then filled all small surface defects and sanded them down. I then
   vacuumed the bathroom of all dust and followed that with a second
   vinegar solution wash. 

3. It is possible that latex primer was a poor idea. If so, I still 
   think it's Sear's responsibility. When I bought the materials, I  
   asked for oil based primer; simply, because that's what I had
   always used before. It was the salesman who talked me into getting
   the latex paint. 

   Just to be on the safe side, I had called the Sears Painter's Hot
   line and discussed the materials. They said the paint I chose was
   indeed suitable for high humidity areas and that the latex primer
   was also the correct choice. By recommending the primer (THEIR
   PRODUCT) twice, both at the store and through the hot line, they
   committed to its suitability. 

4. Finally, the pieces of peeled paint have the same color on both
   sides and the peeled wall does not look like bare plaster and
   feels slightly 'chalky'. It looks like (I am not sure, but it sure
   looks like) the problem is with adhesion between the primer and the
   paint, NOT the wall and the primer. 

   If that's the case, then there is precious little I could have 
   done to cause the problem. That's why I maintain the materials 
   (either or both) must be at fault.

Based on the above, I think I have a case. The salesman 'conceding'
statement that the paint could have been defective, was made not to
my wife, but to his manager. She just happened to overhear it. 

What burns me is Sears' nonchalance about the whole affair. They 
really didn't bother too much with whose fault it was or in what 
predicament their customer was left after dealing with them. All they 
wanted was to squirm out from under. Sears is OK if you buy 
something and have no problem, or if you want a simple return or 
exchange. But when you REALLY get in trouble with one of their 
products, like I did, they seem to be awfully happy to leave you in 
the lurch.

-- Ron

I have gone over the notes listed in 1111.69 and .71 and could find 
no reference to latex paint removal from walls. I will appreciate 
a pointer to the correct note, or an answer to this question, which
I posed in .0

Thanks,

-- Ron

    A close friend is a salesman for a large paint manufacturer;
    he has told me several interesting stories involving paint
    adhesion problems.  In none of the cases was a defective
    product the root cause (several times paint flakes and left-
    over paint were brought to the company lab for a detailed
    analysis).  Common causes were improper preparation, wrong
    type of paint (some guy had used interior paint on the outside
    of his house), temperature/humidity problems during curing, 
    and etc.  This doesn't necessarily mean that you DIDN'T get
    defective product, only that it would seem to be quite unusual.
    
    Anyway, based on his informed advice, here are a few things to
    consider before you engage an attorney:
    
    1) Read the label on the paint can.  Odds are it will have
       a statement disclamining liability except to the extent
       of replacing the materials used - NOT labor required to
       re-prepare or re-paint.
    
    2) Are you willing to excise a section of the affected wall
       and send that along with the left-over paint to a lab so
       they can analyze WHY the paint failed to adhere?  If you
       expect to win a lawsuit you must prove that your actions
       (preparation, application, etc.) were not the cause of
       the failure, and that either the material was defective
       or inappropriate for that use.
    
    Getting every last bit of old wallpaper paste off a wall can
    be a real challenge; left-over paste can definitely cause an
    adhesion failure.  It is also not entirely inconceivable that
    the primer was incompatible with the finish coat UNDER the old
    wallpaper.  The point is, the burden of proof will be on YOUR
    side.
    
    As for the removal issue, since the paint layer has not adhered
    well to the surface, something like 3M's "Safest Stripper" would
    probably be a relatively painless way to remove the remainder.
    Re-sanding the entire surface might be a wise idea; ditto a trip
    to a "real" paint store where you will have a better chance of
    dealing with someone who really knows about paint.
    

    I've seen paint peel like Ron describes, but not under the conditions
    he has.  BTW, I've also painted previously papered walls without nearly
    the preparation he went through with his walls and haven't had any
    problems.  Given that he has successfully painted other walls with no 
    problems, he may not need a lab analysis to convince a small claims judge.
    
    I would try a heat gun, or hair dryer first.  Paint that comes off that
    easily may only need a little coaxing.
    
    Bob

Thanks for all replies. I agree that going through the pain of
**proving** the material was bad, is probably not worth the trouble.
I've sent Sears' Manager a nasty letter. We'll see how/if he
responds. 

-- Ron

My feeling is that Sears will probably replace the paint.  That is the
total limit of their obligation to you.  They have no control over how well
you prepared the surface or how you applied the paint.

I have successfully used Sears latex paints in bathrooms and have never
had a problem with them.  Today's latex paints and primers are very good
indeed, and there's often no reason to use alkyd-based products at all.

I think your expectations of their obligations are out of line.

			Steve

Before you even send a nasty letter, take a few minutes spread over a couple of
hours, and:

1) Get a clean, freshly sanded piece of wood or sheetrock.
2) Prime it.
3) Paint it.
4) See if it peels.

My suspicion is that it won't, and you can then accept it as your problem and
save yourself the time and aggravation of futilely trying to get Sears to do 
something about it.

Paul

    ditto on .8.
    
    Chances are you are 99.9% at fault.  The material being painted and the
    preparations are as important as the paint being used.  Especially
    in the bathroom.  Many people have problems with paint peeling
    or mildew growing in the bathroom.  You should not compare the 
    bathroom and the kitchen.  They are two different environments.  
    
    .9 gave a good suggestion to settling your defective paint question. 
    
    Your statement about suing Sears saddens me.  People should take 
    responsibilities for their own actions.  Whether it be choosing a 
    paint or how to apply it, you made the decisions and you should stick
    with the results.  We all learn from our mistakes with no need of 
    tying up the courts.
    
    
    Regards,
    Paul

    If you take .9's suggestion and the paint fails, I'll believe the
    paint is bad.  Otherwise, as a disinterested third party, my
    guess is that you did something wrong.  I strongly suspect a
    judge and/or jury would decide the same thing.  Sueing somebody
    because you did a bad paint job in a bathroom is, pardon me,
    a waste of our legal system and odds are excellent that you'd
    lose.  If you take .9's suggestion and can demonstrate that
    the paint is bad, then you'd stand a chance of winning, but in
    my opinion it would *still* be a waste of time to sue Sears over
    it.  Do you live in Mass.?  Here's something to think about:
    in Mass., for most cases, you pay your own legal bills.  You
    can't collect your legal expenses from the other party.  Lawyers
    are around $120/hour, last I checked.  You could hire the best
    interior painter around and have him prep and repaint your
    bathroom for what it would cost you for about 2 hours of legal
    fees.  And you'd be out a lot more than 2 hours of legal fees,
    unless you do this in small claims court.  
    So say you do this in small claims court, and you win.  What then?
    Suppose Sears doesn't pay you the settlement?  How do you collect?
    It doesn't "just happen".  You might then have to *really* sue
    them to collect what you won in small claims court.
    Not to mention all your time it will take.  For the amount of
    time it will take (even in small claims court), you could probably
    prep and repaint the bathroom 2 or 3 times.

    Whatever happened to principle? :-)

    I don't think there is anyway that one could get more than the cost of
    the paint reimbursed.  Most of those product warranties explicitly
    state that the manufacturer will only replace the product or refund the
    money since they have no control on how the product is actually used.

re: 4230.13             Sueing Store for peeling paint                 13 of 13
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I don't think there is anyway that one could get more than the cost of
>the paint reimbursed.  Most of those product warranties explicitly
>state that the manufacturer will only replace the product or refund the
>money since they have no control on how the product is actually used.

    According to the label on my Sears paint, Sears total liability is
    limited to the cost of the paint, exclusive of taxes. I would expect
    one would also need their original receipt and the empty cans as
    "prima facie" evidence of purchase, unless Sears recommended
    contractor was used.
    
    I wish you luck. One of the Sears stores had their "tape register"
    machine backdated by 10 years, and when I brought back a tire
    inflator 24 hours later they gave me a very hard time exchanging it,
    because "the reciept was obviously out of warranty". I made a lot of
    noise, and they reluctantly took it  back. What really grabbed me is
    that the units wers not the usual S&R products, and were still on
    sale when i brought it back (defective).
    
    -BobE
    

    Regarding only being responsible for replacing the product, that's what
    the manufacturer says, that's not what the law says.  The manufacturer
    can say anything they want in order to disuade you from suing them.
    
    My opinion is that if you used the product for the use it was intended
    and if you could prove that the product was defective and caused you
    additional expense, you may have a case against the manufacturer,
    regardless of what the manufacturer says is the limit of their
    liability.
    
    Example: You buy asprin and it makes you sick, causing you pain and
    suffering and expense.  You prove that the asprin was defective.  The
    manufacturer has a statement on the box that the limit of their
    liability is the purchase price of the asprin.  I don't think the
    manufacturer's claimed liability limit would hold up in court.

>    Whatever happened to principle? :-)

Nothing. I quit doing business with Sears 10 years ago.

re .-1

There's a heck of a lot of difference between defective medicine and a
botched bathroom wall. People who manufacture and market supplies like
paint and film and who knows what have been down this road so many times
before that I suspect you couldn't even get the case into court much less
win it.

Cuss a little bit and get to work cleaning up the mess. If it makes you
feel any better, I'm doing the same job for more or less the same reason.
(Although I certainly didn't go through all the steps with the vinegar
and stuff...)


Mickey.

    Two comments..
    
    I had a similar problem with Sears Ceiling paint but it was my fault.
    I painted over a Calimine Ceiling and the paint started to
    flake/blister.  The solution was to spray hot water on the latex
    ceiling paint and to scrub it off with a sponge mop.  The hot water
    penetrated the latex and loosed the paint.  It took a little time
    but it worked without chemicals.  If your paint is flaking off, this
    might work for you.
    
    Second, I'm having a hard time replacing a Craftsman 1/4 inch ratchet
    driver.  It was Sears Best several years ago.  The store clerk said
    ok to replacing it and gave me the standard model (one without the
    "fine" tooth ratchet) and not the current Sear's Best model.  The one 
    I have is no longer in production.  What is the policy on tool replacement?
    Is the once Sear's Best now equivelent to the standard model?  For now,
    I said no to the swap and will try another store.
    
    Ed
    
    

Thanks for all replies. It looks like the majority of respondents
feel that Sears' responsibility is limited to --maybe-- replacing
the paint. The main issue seems to revolve around a customer's
ability to prove materials were used correctly. Sorry to be in the
minority, but my own opinion is that (provided the material **was**
used correctly), the vendor's responsibility includes consequential
damage as well.


.8> They have no control over how well you prepared the surface or
.8> how you applied the paint. 

While I am by no means an expert painter, I have not used a
professional painter's services in the past 20 years or so. I have
painted (internally) each residence I occupied in that period and
that includes three apartments and three homes. I tend to be very
meticulous. The time, care and quality of my workmanship is probably
way over what the average do-it-yourselfer puts in (all present
excluded, of course  :-) ), let alone professional painters. If what
you are saying is true, then Sears is responsible to practically no
one. I don't think this is fair. 


.8> I have successfully used Sears latex paints in bathrooms and
.8> have never had a problem with them.

So have I, up to now.


.9 suggested a test of the paint over a clean fresh piece of plywood.
I don't think that's a fair test - the material is supposed to
adhere to plastered wall board, not plywood. Well, I plastered anew
some areas of the wall - the paint did not adhere to these parts any
better. I feel this is a fair test of adhesion, which the paint
failed. 


.10> Chances are you are 99.9% at fault. 

Why? Can you mention one thing that I should have done and didn't,
or one thing that I did do but shouldn't have? 


.10> The material being painted and the preparations are as
.10> important as the paint being used.  Especially in the bathroom.
.10> Many people have problems with paint peeling or mildew growing in
.10> the bathroom. 

I agree with the first sentence. I followed EVERY suggestion of
Sears', in addition to exactly the same procedure I have
successfully used in the past (BTW, I thought I made it clear the
paint started to peel BEFORE the bath room was used --or even
usable-- again). 


>    Your statement about suing Sears saddens me.  People should
>    take responsibilities for their own actions. 

I agree wholeheartedly. But the same applies to vendor that produced
and sold a defective product. 


>    According to the label on my Sears paint ... 

Yea, and like others that responded, I am not sure it is legally
binding. Even if it is, I am positive it is not morally binding. 



.16> ... I suspect you couldn't even get the case into court much
.16> less win it. 

Oh, yes I can. Get it into court. Possibly, even win it.
Fortunately, we will never put these assertions to the test... see
below. 


> If it makes you
> feel any better, I'm doing the same job for more or less the same
> reason. 

No, Mickey, it doesn't feel any better... In my case, I prepared the
bathroom by removing all fixtures, the sink, the counter top, the
toilet tank, etc., so I'd have easy access to the walls. Everything
is back in place now. Removing it all again to cleanup and repaint
will call for a fair amount of cussing... I am not sure my wife is up
to it :-). 


Sears responded to my nasti-letter within 3 days and left a message
on my answering machine. I finally got to talk to their District
Manager. He did not disagree that the paint could have been
defective. After some negotiations, we agreed he will refund the
paint cost and provide me with rollers, sandpaper and brush, in
addition to a power stripper, while I'll provide the elbow grease. 

I must commend the man's attitude. Above board, business like,
striving to find an equitable solution, rather than trying to off
load the responsibility. I wish the department manager had displayed 
the same attitude.

-- Ron 

    
    
     I think it's unreasonable to expect Sears (or any other retailer) to 
    offer anything more than replacement product. Maybe free brushes,
    stripper, etc but's that all they can do. Just think of what the product
    liabilty and insurance costs for everything would be. When you buy a
    product, the store doesn't know what you are going to do with it. They
    also don't have any way of knowing what their potential liability would
    be. So they can do two things: 1. continue to offer free replacement
    product and/or refund for defective merchandise. 2. Jack up the price of
    a $10.00 can of paint to $100.00 so that they are covered when someone 
    comes storming back expecting them to pay for labor, etc associated
    with misuse of their product or defective product.
 
     That would be like telling Kodak that they have to buy you another
    Hawaii vacation because their camera film was defective and all
    your vacation pictures didn't come out. The best they can do is 
    give you another roll of film and say sorry.
    
     just my opinion,
    
    
     Bob
                           

at the risk of going down a rate hole...

then why didn't the manager SAY he didn't have the authority and get to someone
who did?  The consumer is no longer King...

Too many replies here to track this whole thing, but I have experienced the
same thing from latex paint, and I'm sorry Ron, but I think you goofed.  I'd
stake my bet from your base note that you saw a scratch, paniced and started
peeling off big strips of paint "like gummed labels" before the paint had
CURED.  Yes it dried, but no, it hadn't hardened and under some humidity and
temperature conditions, that can take days.  I never play near new latex 
paint because we caused a similiar problem by wallpapering a room two days
after I'd painted the trim.

If you had left the wall alone, all you'd have had was a scratch to sand and 
repaint.  In fact, I'll bet if you tried pulling off the paint in big gobs
now you'll find none of it wants to come off now.  Latex paint when newly 
dried to the touch has a rubber quality to it and will peel off like a
coating of rubber cement.  I think that's what happened.  

You can give yourself a bleeding ulcer hating Sears, but a more productive 
course of action would be to strip the paint with a chemical stripper and 
try again with the brand of your choice and let the paint harden this time 
before touching it with anything.

re: 4230.22 -< Operator Error >-


>stake my bet from your base note that you saw a scratch, paniced and started
>peeling off big strips of paint "like gummed labels" before the paint had
>CURED.  Yes it dried, but no, it hadn't hardened and under some humidity and
>temperature conditions, that can take days.  I never play near new latex 

    Ya know, I reread the base note .. and I compeletley missed his
    comments it was the "next day" ?
    
    I know most Latex Piant must cure several days, and this is
    stipulated on Sears Latex Paint. Basically, I used the same technique
    on my exterior, and the label clearly warned about excessive heat,
    moisture (as in raining or washing), tempreature changes (freezing),
    and letting it cure.
    
    I feel my reply in .14 is out of place, but I'll leave it in the
    event someone has a valid complaint.
    
    -BobE
    
    

    Hello,
    
     I have  not seen any note here about the branches spreading over the
    boundary line. I have a neigbor who implanted a tree and its branches
    are interfering our walkways. Is there any rule in this, should I 
    reasonably cut the branches off so that we can peacefully walk through
    with any disturbed or should they be untouched?
    
    Much appreciated,
    
    Dave
    

    Yes,
    
    Rule #1 talk to you neigbor and show them the problem, and let them
    know that it must be fixed.
    
    Rule #2 if neigbor doesn't want to talk about problem then fix it.
    
    

The general rule is that you are free to trim branches that hang over your
property.  I would suggest first trying to get the agreement of your 
neighbor, rather than just walking out there with a bow saw.

				Steve

    
    
    Just make sure if you are going to cut the limbs yourself that
    you don't damage the tree in any manner.  My landscaping prof.
    said he knows of many folks who have had to replace entire trees
    due to this.  

    
    .3 has a good point.
    
    If your neighbors are keen not to spoil the shape of the tree, you
    might suggest that they have it relocated (if it's not *too* big).
    
    I'd guess if the boughs are low enough to block a walkway the
    tree can't be too tall ???  Unless it has droopy branches like
    a willow.
    
    Our neighbour was happy to do this, although his tree was ON our
    lot, right where the planned path is going to be.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    If the neighbor dosnt like you cutting his tree.....When he's
    out, get a payloader and push it over on his lawn and say the
    wind blew it down.  Then offer to cut it up for what it cost you 
    to get the loader over.....:):):):):):)
    
    Timberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!
    
    

    I am looking for some free legal advice.
    
    I had a fellow that my husband works with finish my basement.
    (framing, electrical, drywall, moulding, and door hanging).
    The written contract was for $2650.  The bathroom
    area was not in the origional contrct, and we verbally (big mistake)
    agreed to $700 to finish the bathroom area as well.  Same deal,
    finished walls, electrical, trim work.
    
    I did not include the cost of doors in the contract because I wanted
    to pick them out myself, so it covered only the hanging of the doors.
    
    I went to a local building supply store and was intending to order
    the doors, but they wanted a lot of detail that I just didn't know.
    What kind of jambs, how much sq. feet of stop etc.  I asked the
    builder if he would order them for me so he could get what we needed.
    He came back with a quote of $556, and I paid him for the doors along
    with an additonal $300 for work in the laundry room.  He said this
    was the material cost for the laundry area.
    
    Needless to say, he abruptly quit the job, and did not order or deliver
    the doors.  He did not do any of the trim work, and only partially did
    the texturing.  I ended up paying $1190 for the doors and labor to hang
    them and $200 for the finishing electrical trim work (hanging fixtures,
    smoke detectors etc.)
    
    Bottom line is that I had paid him all that I owed him (another big
    mistake), except fo $320.  But I had to pay out about $1400 to finish
    the job.
    
    I sent him an itemized bill, asking him to pay me the $1000 that he
    owed me, and of course he denies owing me anything.
    
    He told me that he would have the walls torn out because I did not have
    a permit, and that he would have a lein put on my home because I really
    owed him money because he has receipts showing that it cost him more
    than I paid.  He also said he would be working with his lawyer, and
    that I would end up paying court costs, and would have to hire a lawyer
    to work this out.
    
    My questions are:
    
    1.  What is the impact of my not having a building permit to do the
    	work.  Who is responsible for not having one him or me?
    
    2.  What are my chances of recovering anything in small claims court?
    	I cannot believe that I would be liable for his lack of costing
    	out the job correctly.
    
    3.  Would anyone (i.e. judge) believe me concerning the $700 quote
    	for the laundry room and that I gave him $556 to purchase the
    	doors?  I do not have this in writing.
    
    	All I have in writing is the original contract that was signed
    	by both of us for $2650.  I have cancelled checks for $3556 paid
    	to him, and a letter that I sent him outlining my understanding
    	of the costs and work to be done, but this was not signed by
    	him, so he could certainly claim to never have received it.
    
    4.  Any advice?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Laurie Vandenberg (who will listen to Judge Wapner next time.  Get it
    in writing no mater who is doing the work)

    
    
    .....drop the issue until you talk to someone who knows what
    the correct answer is.....
    
    The "no permit" issue could cost you money in fines.  
    Unless your going to do the work yourself or with a trusted person,
    "Don't work at home without it!".....
     
    The no written contract stuff could go one way or the other unless you
    have prof that, atleast the materials perchased were for the work
    never done.
    
    Soooooo.......It might be a small price to pay for a lessoned learned??
    
    JD
    

    Chauk it up to experience. Drop it.
    
    Marc H.

re: licensing.    Since it's your home, I would guess that you were (are) 
responsible for making sure the proper licenses are in place... whether you 
or the 'general contractor' actually does the legwork to attain them.

Is this in Mass?  If so, is the person doing the work a licensed electrician?  
Did he have proper insurance?

Does this person advertise his services (in the paper or yellow pages)?  If 
so, he's supposed to be registered with the state (you can call the attorney
general's office to find out - I think that's who my wife called to find out
about somebody).

Basically, what I'm getting at is that it's possible that both of you are at 
fault to some degree  (if all had worked out OK, nothing would have come of any
of it).  But since it has reached a stage of disagreement, perhaps the best
thing for both of you is a compromised agreement?

>    Laurie Vandenberg (who will listen to Judge Wapner next time.  Get it
>    in writing no mater who is doing the work)

True.  Get as much in the contract as possible.  But even then, there's always
something that can come up...

Dan

.0 sounds like he's heard that the best defence is a good offense.  
So, he's responding to your threat of small claims court with threats 
of his own.

I couldn't say what would happen if you took him to small claims court.
I would suggest that you think about whether the money you could get is
worth the hassle -- and remember, that getting a judgement against him
doesn't mean you'll get the money!  

Given this guy's demonstrated record, I'd suggest that if you decide not
to sue him, you try to get him to sign a mutual "no lawsuit" agreement.

Then, maybe you can pursue justice in a different venue, e.g. try to get
him in trouble with the state for doing work without a permit!  Assuming
that he didn't have one -- check with your local building inspector.
BTW, in many towns homeonwers are allowed to do their own (non-plumbing)
work on their own houses.  So his threat to have the walls torn out
doesn't sound very credible to me.  But talk to your town building
inspector if you want more reliable information.

	Good luck,
	Larry Seiler

PS:  You are now a member of that extensive group of people (like me)
who know personal reasons why one should always have a contract and
never make the final payment until the work is done!

I'm pretty sure that, at least in New Hampshire, this arrangement would
have him under consideration as a sub-contractor, which makes you responsible
for having a permit in place. However, also, in many parts of New Hampshire,
no permit would have been required for the work you describe.

The "mechanic's lien" is a crock in situations like this. The law should be
changed to somehow offer protection to the homeowner as well, like the
ability to just as easily place a lien against the workman for work paid
for but not accomplished.

-Jack

    Under the law a contract is a contract.  Don't let him buffalo you
    about "no written contract".  Obviously, a written contract is better
    but when you get your lawyer, assuming you pursue this you should
    definitely have one, she will tell you that an oral contract is
    enforceable.
    
    This is all from memory and not experience, but that's my recollection.
    

In Massachusetts, a judgement in small claims is enforceable by the court. 
If the defendent fails to remit, you can request that the court take action
against the defendent, who will be held in contempt and a sheriff will be
dispatched to collect the money.  In other words, they can put him in
jail for contempt if he's being a deadbeat.

Or, at least that's what I was told when I won in small claims in Westboro,
in 1983.  Times change, though.  I didn't go this far, since the defendent
simply paid me on time. (I bought his house and he stuck me with a few things)

My case wasn't so complex, though.  I think I'd ask a lawyer about this one.
That's what I did in '83, and he suggested that I just go to small claims
myself.  Your mileage may well vary on this one, though.

Good luck.

tim

    Re .7:
    
    That's the theory.  In reality, the sheriff puts the deadbeat in
    the jail, the deadbeat agrees to pay, gets released, and never pays.
    This can go on for quite some time.
    
    I was awarded a judgement against a builder, who did the above, and
    then finally moved out of state.  I never collected any money.

Re: .8

That's a drag.  I had also thought they said something about attaching property
or wages or something, but it's been so long, I can't recall.  I do recall that
there was a question about it back then because of a history of people skipping
out on judgements, and they were trying to enforce them more vigorously, back 
then.

sigh.

tim

    
    
    I didn't read the base note (terminal is too slow :-) but I do know
    that filing bankruptcy will erase even court-ordered debts (I assume
    this doesn't apply to child support / alimony) and that you can not
    "re-sue" after the bankruptcy proceedings.  If a builder/contractor
    is truly in debt and not just being obnoxious, this is a great 
    "out" for them. 
    

    Also, the loser can agree to repay the $500 dollar debt over the next
    ten years in weekly payments - - that's right, a buck a week.  He then
    sends a check for a buck to you return receipt requested, and you have
    to go to the Post Office and sign for the letter to get your check for 
    a dollar.  Get's stale real fast, and the dead beat knows it.  After
    you give up going to the PO after a couple months, he just stops
    sending.  
    
    Carl

But if you *do* go the PO weekly, he also has to go to the PO weekly.  It'll
also cost him considerably more money.

    With the lack of business these guys end up with, they seem to have
    plenty of time to go to the PO.  ;-)  ;-).
    
    Carl

>Or, at least that's what I was told when I won in small claims in Westboro,
>in 1983.

Speaking of small claims, how does this work?  Unfortunately I may need to
find out real soon...  (a contractor has verbally agreed to refund our 
money, but getting it in writing and getting the money is another issue).

Is there a topic in here that I missed about this?  Or perhaps someone can 
give me a starting point (ie, who do I call first?)

Thx,
Dan

    
    ok. look like a good place for this note.......
    
    Question for all the lawyers out there......
    
    1.  Does the town have to notify you if on your street
    	they are going to remove a street light if it is so
    	many feet away from your building???
    
    The reason I ask is, the streelight was taken out in from of my
    garage and placed in a "more needed area."  No sooner than this was
    done did I have to call the police!  The fact is I didnt know it was
    gone seeing I dont go there much at night and was never told it was 
    gone.  
    So, any body know something I should before I file ?
    JD

I've never heard of such a thing.  The light poles are usually on town
property; I imagine they can do whatever they wish.  If you want a light,
put up your own and pay for it.  You can often have the power company
put one up for you; the monthly rental rate is quite reasonable.  I did
this at a previous house. 

					Steve

    
    There was probably a hearing in your town about the removal of the
    street light.  Chances are that it was announced in a newspaper and you
    didn't know about it.  You can call up your city (DPW maybe?) and ask
    about it but I doubt they will do anything to satisfy you.
    
    Phil                                                              

    A couple years ago the street light in front of my house was
    removed.  I never received any notice that it was going to
    be removed (although it wasn't a surprise, since I knew the
    town was cutting back on street lighting).

>>I've never heard of such a thing.  The light poles are usually on town
>>property; I imagine they can do whatever they wish.  If you want a light,
>>put up your own and pay for it.  You can often have the power company
>>put one up for you; the monthly rental rate is quite reasonable.  I did
>>this at a previous house. 

My last month's PSNH bill had a complete set of rate.  Street lights
started out at around $12/month including the light, maintainence and
electricity.

Garry

Screw the street lights!  Let them see stars!

Sorry about that ;-)  But I'm generally against street lights since
the majority of them just add light pollution to an ever lightening
night sky.  I know there are saftey issues involved, but if you really
need it, put in low pressure sodium which only lights DOWNWARD and
then I'll keep quiet ;-)

PeterT_who'd_get_really_pissed_only_when_they_start_
putting_street_lights_on_his_street!!!

    
    Hummmm..always one sour apple in the basket...:)
    
    Well for one thing, the light dosnt distract any one around it.
    It lights up the area around 3 garages to "prevent" anybody from
    walking around..   The "BEEF" I have is that no one told me it was
    removed!  If I had time to put up my own light to protect my
    property I would have.....  Now that things happened, who's
    responsible?
    
    JD

Well, you don't seem to be, but perhaps you can learn.  What are you
looking for - to have the town pay you some sort of damages?  Get real!
I don't think the town had any obligation to notify you specifically.

You could put up your own light (low-pressure sodium, one that doesn't
shine into the sky) and put it on a motion sensor so that it only comes on
when someone moves nearby.

					Steve

A nit,

I tried a low pressure sodium light on a motion sensor and was less than 
pleased.  The light takes about 5 minutes to get up to speed so to speak.
The longest time I could adjust the motion sensor was to about 6 minutes.

If I were to really want a motion sensor driven light, I would go with a
filiment type light.  

BTW, mercury vapor would have the same problem.

    The main idea is to get them to put a light back up for
    the benifit and protecton of the folks that use the area.
    
    Pay for damages..... the thought had crossed my mind!..:)
    
    I have a LPS light i'm going to install.  I'd rather have it on all
    the time at might to keep any ideas out of anyone head...
    
    ...anyb body have an 200' of 8' chainlink that need removed??
    
    JD

    re .21:  "Now that things happened, who's responsible?"
    
    If you mean someone took advantage of the darkness to commit a crime,
    then I'll tell you who's responsible -- the person who committed the
    crime is responsible!  
    
    That said, I do think it would have been nice if the city/town had
    worked harder at notifying people of the change in advance.  Not that
    I have any idea what they did -- e.g. they might have left notices
    in nearby mailboxes.  That's what my town did before repaving my
    street.  It was nice to know so that we could make plans around it.
    
    		Larry