Conference 7.286::home_work

    I am converting and relocating our kitchen stove. The new stove
    is gas and the new location is across the room from the current
    electrical stove. The quandry is, should I extend the 3 conductor
    #4 aluminum wire under the floor so that the next owners of the
    house can attach wires to the pull box or just leave the outlet
    inside the new cupboard and just cut a hole to expose the location.
    My intent is to make life easier for the next guy.
    
    Your opinion is appreciated.
    
    /cal hoe

       Being a good guy like I am.... I would run the 220 over to the
    new location. You'll feel alot better about a job thoroughly done
    and the next guy will be greatful as well!

     I was always taught to do a job right or not at all, but I don't
    see any reason to run the 220 over to the new location since you
    are changing to gas. When you sell a house the stove normally goes
    with it, so the new owners would just use it or get another like
    it. It's not exactly a selling point either. It's very easy to run
    the new wire if someone wants to convert to elec. (unless your basement
    is finished)
    
    					Kenny

    I guess I'd pull the line down into the cellar and end it in a blank
    box up on a joist, so it's easy to get to, but not bother to run
    it anyplace.  As .2 suggests, won't the next person in all probability
    use a gas stove anyway?
    
    Steve

      Well I would have apreciated the option when I moved into
    my house. We went from gas to electric and paid an electrician to
    do it. BTW .... the appliances did'nt come with the property.
                                               /BB

    Sounds like the shorted wire burned off its insulation, causing it to
    weld itself to some other burner's wire.  My guess is that if you
    dismantle it, all will be painfully obvious (and easily repairable if
    you do it on a day that appliance repair part stores are open.)
    Just remember that in a stove, you always use crimp connectors,
    never solder, because the wires themselves tend to get pretty hot.
    
    As to how the controls work, the standard ones are thermostatically
    controlled, but not in the way that you might think.  Except in the
    case of the burners that have some kind of "magic something or other"
    button in the middle, the control has no idea of the temperature of the
    heating element or the pan on it. 
    
    The control has a bimetallic switch and heater combo built into itself
    which turns the element on and off, with the duty cycle depending on
    the switch setting.  "High" just shunts the thermostat switch and lets
    the element stay on 100% of the time, while "low" may give you a 5%
    on/95% off time. 
    
    -joet

Jenn Airs don't have thermostat buttons.  

Go at it with a multimeter.  Test voltages and compare against other burners.
(the left front should be identical with the right rear, and vice versa.)

.1 is probably right.  If something is welded, it should be obvious.  
My guess is that the welded part is in the control.  Check the outputs 
there (wait a minute to see the duty cycle) and compare with the 
corresponding good control.

Also, if you have to replace wire, get specially heat-insulated wire, 
which is generally only available at stores that sell stove burners and 
controls. 

Hope this helps

Alex

I need to put in electric for an electric oven (you convinced me, 
Alex) ....

Routing the wire from the box to below the oven is no problem (runs 
through basement storage area).  My assuption is that its easy to hook 
it to a breaker and plug a new breaker in the box (if I have room) and 
to terminate it in a socket box at the other end.  (this is 220V).
Do i just use a special grade of 3-conductor ROMEX (12-3?) 

Are there any other hitches I should keep in mind???

			thanx
				/j

Suggest before you go any further you get yourself a copy of the
electrical code and/or a reasonably comprehensive book on wiring.

This is a major oven, right? (as opposed to a countertop toaster)
Check the documentation with the oven for what its power service
requirements are. From that you can determine what size wire you
will need. Some examples I'm familiar with (these are Sears products):

Separate single wall oven:	30A	10/3
Small range top:		30A	10/2
Large range top w/ griddle;	40A	8/2
Complete range/oven		50A	6/3

I show 2-wire cable for the two range tops because the Sears units
are 220 only (no 110 components), so no neutral is needed. I used
8 gauge SE cable which is stranded and a whole lot easier to work with
than solid 8 (if you can get it at all). ** Check the documentation for
your unit. The above is an example only. **

You need a double breaker for a 220V circuit. It's simply two breakers
tied together that occupy adjacent breaker slots in the box. The box
is arranged so that alternate breakers are on opposite phases. It is
crucial that you use the double breaker, and not two separate ones,
so that if one side trips both trip simultaneously. Leaving one side
of a 220V circuit up is very dangerous (not to mention illegal).

None of these appliances (at least the ones Sears sells) plug in. What
you do is run the service to a junction box, in which you splice to
the power cable for the oven. You're dealing with fairly serious current
here; improperly made connections can get you into a lot of trouble.
Be careful.

    I could be wrong about this but I've never seen three wire cable
    going to 50A complete range/oven outlets.
    
    The cables to most full size oven/range outlets are 6/2 (plus ground,
    of course).   I believe the NEC allows use of ground as neutral
    for any 115V components in ovens only.   (This is clearly called out
    as an exception). 

    Many ovens can be wired directly or through a plug - depends on what
    kind of cable you buy with it.  My 50A range/oven plugs in.
    
    Rich

On the wire, I believe that most of the high amp wire used today for stoves 
and ovens is two conductor with ground aluminum wire.  I know in my fairly
new house it is.  It is about one half the price of Romex and much
easier to work with.

I also used this cable to wire up a special 60 amp circuit for my arc
welder.

Go to an electrical supply house and ask.  Then check the codes.  You will
probably find it is ok to use.

    You can buy a range outlet anywhere.  Spags has them.  They're
    similar to dryer outlets but one prong is a different shape just
    so you don't plug a range into a dryer outlet or vice versa.
    You can use AL 6-2 plus ground for it.
    

RE:1469.4 

>On the wire, I believe that most of the high amp wire used today for stoves 
>and ovens is two conductor with ground aluminum wire.  I know in my fairly
>new house it is.  It is about one half the price of Romex and much
>easier to work with.

	Be forewarned on new installation or replacement that Aluminum wiring
	size does *not* equal copper wire size in rating.  If you use an 8
	gauge in copper you will need 6 in Aluminum.  Also you must insure
	that any connections made with the aluminum i.e. at the breaker panel
	or at the outlet must be suitable for use with aluminum, e.g. they are
	marked CU/AL .  Finally Aluminum requires a special grease to be used
	with those connections to inhibit corrosion and therby fire hazard.

	For my money, I'd spend the extra and get the copper, my piece of mind
	is worth a whole lot more than what I'd save on Aluminum.

	FWIW, Randy

I second the warnings made by .6.  I once saw an electrical panel 
literally explode due to corroded aluminum connections.  You won't find 
'em in my hhouse.


...bill

    I too was afraid of Al wiring.  I wired a sub panel (100A) in the
    garage when I went from 100 to 200 service in the main.  The main
    coming in from the street to all of your panels is Al.  The cost
    of the run was $108 - 75 feet.  Had I done this in copper, it would
    have been at least 2.5 times that.
    
    I would not use Al for anything less than this however.  I too just
    don't feel easy about it.  The mains I'm talking about surely don't
    have any problems taking Al wire.  The critical thing is proper
    installation (yes you have to use the anti-corrosion grease).
    You also need to go back after a while and make sure the connections
    are tight.  I'm told Al has a tendency to shrink slightly.  How
    many of us have checked the main feed coming into the panel from
    the meter ??  Not I until I did this work.

re: Aluminum

If installed properly (proper fittings and grease) it is perfectly safe and
as was pointed out, about 1/4 the price of copper.  

If you check the wiring in most houses built today, you will find Al used
in almost all high current applications (wiring for stoves, ovens, etc).

    RE: .4
    
    You do need a neutral for the oven. The ovens usually have a 110VAC
    timer and the interior light bulb is a 110 VAC bulb. Most seperate
    oven/oven or oven/broiler or oven/microwave units are direct wired
    to the braker box. You will need 8-3 with ground copper or 6-3 with
    ground wire aluminium.
    
    Built ovens usually have a connection box with a terminal strip
    with compression type connections.
    
    I changed my gas oven to electric but kept the gas stove top in
    our mobile home. The unit we got from Sears had a self cleaning
    feature with the microwave shelf built in. We seldom used the
    gas broiler/oven that we had.
    
    /cal

    Well we better resolve this discrepancy because I'm about to put a
    new oven in.
    
    The circuits I've examined are all ones that terminate in huge oven
    outlets for plug-in range/ovens.  They are 50A circuits and all
    of them use 6/2 with ground braid SE cable.
    
    My reading of the NEC is that for this configuration only, the neutral
    for any 115v components in the oven can use the ground.
    
    Am I reading wrong?  Sounds like the requirements for direct-wired
    and plug-in are different.

50A for an electric oven??? sounds high,...was going to use the fuses
there now for the (non-existant) electric dryer (30A).

    
    	My electric oven is on 60amp circuits of there own. Don't forget
    self clean mode.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Just checked the 1987 NEC and Audel's interpretive book.  It clearly
    states that you can wire a range with 2-wire plus ground service
    entrance cable and that you can connect neutral to ground inside the range
    (If there is a neutral - i.e. 115V components).  This arrangement
    is only permitted if the circuit is from the main panel - i.e.,
    where the neutral and ground are bonded together.  Coming from a
    submain where neutral floats with respect to ground, this arrangement
    is illegal since it obviously violates the floating neutral.  The
    Audel book claims this is the only such exception allowed by the
    code.
    
    Re .-1 .-2
    
    The NEC doesn't fix the amperage of range circuits other than saying
    that you need a 40A circuit for an oven up to 8.75 KW, and that
    the ampacity of the circuit has to be at least 25% over the current
    draw of the device.  So you can size the circuit according to the
    device.
    
    But if you're putting in an oven outlet, I imagine you want to go
    with 50A even if the oven you're plugging in doesn't need it.  Some
    future oven may need the whole thing.

    I recently replaced one of these little bulbs, I believe it was
    about $14. Now, another bulb is dimming. I'll live with it as long
    as I can.

    An indicator which glows when the burners are turned off is not
    defective!  Be very sure the burners really are off, but what you
    probably have is a bad switch.  The switch may be passing some power
    to the indicator, even when none is connected to the burner element.
    
    If you are totally unfamiliar with electrical work, I'd suggest
    staying clear of the underside of that stove.  240v will cause more
    than a tingle in your arm!

I've got an electric stove with an oven that hasn't worked since April and my 
wife is ready to kill me for not fixing it.  The problem seems to be in the 
switch/thermostat for the oven. It doesn't feel or sound right.  I opened up 
the control panel thinking it would be an easy job to replace a switch but, as 
mentioned in a previous reply, there are umpteen wires going to the darned 
thing.  Anybody have any ideas on how to fix/remove/replace the control? What 
would a replacement cost for me to fix? For a repairman to fix?

Dave (who's-glad-we-have-two-microwave-ovens-but-who-didn't-get-a-birthday-cake-
      this-year-'cause-my-wife's-trying-to-make-her-point)

    re: .3
    
    Get the make and model number, call an appliance parts store and
    get a price.  If it sounds good, buy it.  When you get it home,
    open the panel and, one wire at a time, move the wires from the
    old one to the new one.  It gets a little tight, but I've done it
    with no problems.  Just don't slip.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  As always, UNPLUG THE OVEN FROM THE POWER SOURCE BEFORE
    PROCEEDING!

                                                            
    
    Gene's Appliance Parts Inc. on 788 Gorgam Street in Lowell would
    be the first place I'd look for any appliance part. They also have 
    places on 206 Lawrence Street in Lawrence and 62 Kinsley Street in 
    Nashua.
    
    
    
    

    While perusing this file yesterday, I came across this note which
    has, probably, saved me from considerable ulcers. I am re-modeling
    the kitchen and, while I'm an ex-pro nail banger the electric is
    strictly DIY with my trusty book. I went and designed a spiffy
    setup and got all the cabinets (BRAMMER from Slummerville), we
    ordered the new appliances and the countertops (the last thing)
    will be delivered Saturday.
    
    In my electrical innocence I was sure that the new range would
    attach to the circuit that currently (no pun intended) feeds
    my electric cook top, or maybe the wall oven, since we are replacing
    the two separate units with one combined unit (more counter space
    this way). From reading this note I find that I might have some
    problems with this. Well, I went home last night and checked.
    Yup, I've got problems. I have two circuits, both 240V 30A using
    10ga. wire.  So, I've got to run a new wire and upgrade to 50A,
    true?
    
    My real question is this, my fuse box, 25 yrs old, has three
    240 volt connections, they all have 2 cartrige fuses in a fuse
    block. Now, the 40A dryer ciruit fuse block seems to be the same
    dimensions as the 30A stove and oven circuits, but, the fuses
    and fuse holders are bigger. When I upgrade one of the 30A
    circuits, can I get a new fuse block that will take 50A fuses
    and replace the 30A, or can I get a new fuse holder which will
    attach to the existing fuse block, or can I get a circuit breaker
    which will replace the whole fuse assembly in the box, or ...?
    
    Alan   who's glad he found this out now, rather than during the
    	   vacation week he planned for installing the appliance
    	   side  of the kitchen.

    I don't know where you're located, but I've had good luck with
    Wel-Don Appliance service on Route 97 in Haverhill.  Just got
    a part from them for our 15-year-old dishwasher, in fact.
    
    pbm
    

    re: where to get appliance parts
    
    Actually, just break out the Yellow pages.  Most places I call are
    glad to give you the price over the phone.  Pick the closest.best
    price and go for it.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  A tip:  When you get them on the line, ask if they have it
    AND ask for the price at the same time.  There's something about
    appliance and auto part stores where, unless you take the initiative,
    the conversations goes:
    
    YOU:   Do you have a mumblefratz for a Cuisinart industrial 
           apiary-sucker model number 666?
    
    THEM:  Hold on...
    
    	(five minutes pass)
    
    THEM:  Hello?  Yep, we got it.
    
    YOU:   How much is it?
    
    THEM:  Hold on...
    
    	(five minutes pass)
    
    THEM:  Hello?  Yeah, it's $25.18.
    
    YOU:  Thanks.

    Re: oven problem.
    Depending on the problem, it may be in the temperature sensor,
    not in the switch.  My oven was clicking off and on several times
    a minute, and the problem was a bad temperature sensor.  (I
    called somebody to come fix the oven, since at the time I had
    no idea what was wrong.  It may be the easiest way out in the
    long run.)

    GE and Whirlpool have a factory warehouse in an industrial center
    in Norwood, Mass.  Open every Saturday, am. I have done business 
    with the GE office. They have everything, but not at the cheapest
    price. They also have repair books for every appliance.
    

I would appreciate an informed answer, from one of you electrical gurus out
there, to the following question. Can two seperate wires (circuits) be
combined to form one larger circuit? A friend, who is an EE, thinks that
there is no theoretical problem, but, that it is probably illegal as hell.

The situation is as follows:  I have an electric cook top and an electric
wall oven. Both appliances are on 10 ga. wire 220V 30A circuits. I want
to replace the two with a combination range which requires a 6 ga wire
220V 50A circuit. The two existing circuits run to the same junction box
in the kitchen from adjacent connections in the fuse box (doubled 30A
cartrige fuses on each). As an alternative to trying to remove these
existing wires and replaceing them with a single new wire, could they
be joined into one circuit? (see diagram)



Fuse Box							Range Outlet
--------+- - - - - - - - White Oven - - - - - \
	| - - - - - - - White Stove - - - - - - - - - - - - - - White
Oven	|
  Red	|-----------\
  Black |=========== \===================\\
Stove	|	      /-----------Red-----\\------------------- Red
  Red	|------------/			   \\
  Black	|====================================== Black========== Black
	|
--------+

The phaseing of the wires should be correct true? The reason I'm looking
for alternatives is that fishing a 6 ga cable from the kitchen to the
fuse box is going to be very hard, and I can't seem to get an electrician
to even come and give me an estimate.

Alan
    

Hi, Alan.

Sounds illegal as hell to me, but I can't quote you chapter and verse at the
moment.  I'm _not_ an EE, but wouldn't the current follow the path of least
resistance, tending to favor one path over the other and thus drive it past
its 30A rating (and blow the fuse)?  Or are such circuits self-balancing? 
There's also the question of phasing, as you observed - it may or may not be
trivial for you to get it right, and for the inspector to verify that you've
done so. 

If you haven't actually bought the range yet, check around - there may exist
combination ranges that take two separate 30A supplies, intended for
situations like yours. 

You might ask your town electrical inspector for advice - unless, of course, 
you have some reason to keep a low profile inspector-wise.

>          I'm _not_ an EE, but wouldn't the current follow the path of least
> resistance, tending to favor one path over the other and thus drive it past
> its 30A rating (and blow the fuse)?
    
    The following is not based on two hours of mathematical calculations,
    but on the memory of some basics from my college EE days....
    
    You have 60 amps to move from point A to point B.  The total cross-
    sectional area of all conductors used will determine the total amps
    that can safely be supplied.  I don't think in this case that the
    difference in resistance between the two 30A circuits is going to
    be significant enough to cause any noticeable difference in voltage
    drop over the distance involved (<50').  So long as both ends of the
    two 30A circuits are bonded together, unless you have another problem
    (such as one of the conductors broken almost through), you should
    not see more than a couple of amps difference in current in the two
    supply legs.
    
    Jim

   re: .17
    
    Hi, Dave
    
    	Well, now that you mention it I do have reason to keep a low
    profile inspector-wise. Has more to do with the inspectors in Northboro
    then with what I've been doing. They have this nasty habit of picking
    unmercifully on anyone who doesn't use an "approved" contractor,
    like if you touch one end of anything they feel they can make you
    bring anything remotely related up to current code. Plus I plan
    to install my own new sink (shock, horror, scurvy dog). 
    
    	Thanks for the idea about finding a range with separate wiring
    for the two components, I'll definitely give that a try.
    
    re: .18
    	I take it that you seem to agree that theoretically this isn't
    a problem, legallity aside?
    
    
    
    Could someone point me to a book that has a good description of
    3 wire circuits?  I have an AC outlet that we don't need that is
    wired to two separate, but adjacent, 20A fuses. It seems possible
    to move the wire down to my garage and put two 30A outlets on the
    separate hot (red and black) wires, one duplex on each wire, or
    split, 2 halves on each wire. The conduit (EMT) already runs through
    the garage so it should be simple, no?
    
    Thanks alot
    	Alan

>    Could someone point me to a book that has a good description of
>    3 wire circuits?  

Richter's paperback "Wiring Simplified", widely touted in this conference
and available for under $2 at Spag's.


>	I have an AC outlet that we don't need that is
>    wired to two separate, but adjacent, 20A fuses. 

Sounds like just the thing.  But be sure you still meet the Code requirement 
to have two 20A appliance circuits in your kitchen, not counting dedicated-
circuit appliances like dishwashers.


>	It seems possible
>    to move the wire down to my garage and put two 30A outlets on the
>    separate hot (red and black) wires...

I hope that "30A" is a typo for "20A".


>	..., one duplex on each wire, or
>    split, 2 halves on each wire. The conduit (EMT) already runs through
>    the garage so it should be simple, no?
    
The 3-wire technique seems like the right way to go, if you feel you need two
independent 20A circuits in the garage.  But note that Code requires GFCI for
garages now, and GFCI outlets don't lend themselves to split-outlet 
installation.  You'll have to go the one_duplex_on_each_hot_wire route, and
use two GFCI outlets. 

    RE: .20
    
    Thanks for the name of the book. BTW I was at Spag's Saturday
    to pick up a GFCI outlet and they didn't have a white one so I
    paid 9.98 for an ivory (it's only the laundry room). Then I went
    to Slummerville for something else and found white GFCIs for 9.95.
    
    The AC outlet isn't in the kitchen so that code doesn't apply.
    
    The 30A was a typo, but, would it matter as long as the wire involved
    and the outlets were the proper size?  The current wire is 12 gauge,
    won't that take 30 amps in a 3 wire circuit? The fuse box is the
    old style where you can put in any size fuse.
    
    The reason I need the new outlets is that the new home for my Shopsmith
    is in the garage.

>    The 30A was a typo, but, would it matter as long as the wire involved
>    and the outlets were the proper size?  

Only because the outlet and wires you're removing are 20A.  My concern was
over lack of parallel structure in your writing, not over anything in your
wiring. 


>	The current wire is 12 gauge,
>    won't that take 30 amps in a 3 wire circuit? 

No, it's #12 for 20A and #10 for 30A, whether you're running 2- or 3-wire
circuits.  (There's provision for using a smaller neutral wire with 3-wire
circuits, but that's for larger wire sizes.  Something like a 3-wire circuit 
with #6 hot wires can use a #8 neutral.)  Remember, the amperage rating 
refers to _each_half_ of the 3-wire circuit.

Re: < Note 1469.19 by AKOV76::CRAMER >

>    re: .18
>    	I take it that you seem to agree that theoretically this isn't
>    a problem, legallity aside?
    
    Yup.

    Re: .21
    
      I may be assuming but if you found GFCI's for $9.95 at Somerville,
    they are probably on sale there.  Also, I remember looking at the
    ones they had last year and they were not the type that Spag's has.
    The ones at Somerville have wires hanging out of the back whereas
    the ones at Spag's have screw terminals on the back like an ordinary
    receptacle.  Spag's usually has these on sale at least every other
    month for $8.88.
    
    -Jim
      

    re .16
    
    If (and that's a big if) it were legal to combine two 30 amp 220V
    circuits to feed a 60 amp 220V appliance you would require a quad 
    ganged breaker to be able to shut off all the power at once.  
    Otherwise, you could shut off one breaker, assume it's safe and get 
    zapped.  I have seen a 200 amp panel with 4 100 amp breakers ganged
    together (2 100 amp breakers in parallel for each leg). 

    RE: .17
    	That's what I figured. Since I have a fuse box It is difficult
    to gang the fuses :^(
    
    	Speaking of which, I have a 220 V 20A outlet in a bedroom,
    presumably for an air conditioner, that is wired to two separate
    20 amp fuses in the fuse box. This doesn't sound kosher, does it?
    
    Alan
    
    PS  Anyone know if you can by ganged fuses that would retrofit
        a fuse box?

                A 220 line MUST have two fuses or a ganged breaker.
        Since there is no neutral on a 220 (both are hot in reference to
        ground or neutral), both sides must be protected. This is one
        case where the breaker is better than a fuse.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    Okay guys, let me get this straight, in my fuse box I have 4 different
     2xx volt circuits ( is it 220, 240 or 250 anyway?? )
    
    3 of these circuits have special fuse holders, you pull the handle
    and get a square piece of plastic with 2 cartrige fuses on it. Now
    I assume that one of the fuses handles the red wire, and one handles
    the black wire, true?
    
    The other 2xx volt circuit runs to two separate regular old fuses
    the black goes to one and the red goes to the other. These fuses
    are not connected in any way. Now to the question,
    
    Is the only reason for "ganging" the fuses, or the breakers, to insure
    that when you deliberately turn off the circuit, you turn off BOTH
    hot wires? Or, is there some form of protection here in case of
    a short or overload?
    
    In other words is this "idiot" protection, or electrical protection?
    Alan
    

< Note 1469.28 by AKOV68::CRAMER >
                               -< Why ganging? >-
>    In other words is this "idiot" protection, or electrical protection?
>    Alan


I'd say a bit of both. Idiot protection: "Oh, you mean there were TWO 
fuses?" Overload: Just suppose that the stove/oven was turned on and 
drawing lots of current. What happens if you de-energize just half the 
circuit. All the current will then flow (momentarily) through the 
energized leg and (hopefully) blow the fuse quickly. A ganged 
breaker/fuse at least provides a mechanical means for minimizing either 
of the above conditions. And I believe would be required by code.

Chuck

    Unless something is wrong, no current will flow when "half" of the
    curcuit is deenergised.  On the other hand, if you or some other
    conductor is providing a short to ground, then each leg is providing
    a source of 110 volts and both must be opened to stop the current.

Circuit Breakers for two "supply" lines (like each side of a 200V line)
get PHYSICALLY ganged - so thet when one trips due to overload it pulls
down the other; also so that when you switch one off you turn them both
off (this the real SAFETY issue - you want to have a single action that
turns an entire line OFF).

Ganging fuses or breakers to increase the current handling rating is a real
No-No. The biggest issue is PHYSICAL SAFETY - consider the number of actions
required to turn the entire critter off. Number two issue is that a fuse
or a circuit breaker has a known "overshoot" - it will allow a known number
of AMPS above its rating before blowing. Ganging will add the overshoots
together - potentially permitting more current through the line than some
other component can safely handle.

Dennis

    Well, this seems as good a place as any...
    
    I'm just back from a week of "vacation" re-modeling my kitchen.
    As an ex-professional nail banger the cabinet installation went
    smoothly and took no more than my estimate, as should be expected.
    However, a kitchen does not live be wood alone...
    
    My experience with wires and pipes has been all DIY, except for
    some "peeking" at the pros.  My last two plumbing jobs and electrical
    jobs had gone so well that I'd been lulled into thinking I really
    knew what I was doing. Famous last words...
    
    The one thing that has been engraved on my mind for all times is
    this:
    	WHEN WIRING FOR APPLIANCES, MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHERE THE OUTLET
    HAS TO GO BEFORE!!!! YOU WIRE THE DAMN THING.
    
    	Not once, not twice, but three times I had to unexpectedly move
    outlets (two newly installed). I can only plead over-optimism operating
    in colusion with a delayed delivery of the range, dishwasher and
    micro-wave (Geez, those things are heavy!).  I had planned to have
    the appliances delivered before I wired for them, but, since they
    were late I went ahead without considering the consequences. 
    
    The new range outlet, which an electrician installed, was too high
    so the range was ~2" from the wall, I had to drop it down 1.5"
    so that the plug would fit into the recess in the back of the unit.
    The existing dishwasher outlet, which I didn't expect to move
    had to be moved out of the opening for the appliance (why don't
    all DWs come with cords already attached?) AND the micro-wave
    outlet couldn't be behind that either!

    Then there was the plumbing for the new sink and faucet, I thought
    all faucets attached with ball-end risers?!!?? We purchased a DELTA
    Waterfall single lever faucet where the faucet, lever assembly and
    sprayer are all separate units. The plumbing connections are to
    two 3/8" OD copper tubes which stick out the bottom of the
    lever assembly. The connections to the faucet and sprayer are made
    with screw on hoses, the clearance between the nut part of the
    screw on hose and those copper tubes is infintesimaly small. arrgh
    Plus my old DW had been INCORRECTLY attached with a rubber hose
    for the water line. I'd never worked with flexible copper before,
    thank God for compression fittings.
    
    Alan

    This is really a new question, but closely enough related to this
    note (and also to Note 644) that I didn't feel that I should start
    a new note.
    
    I got home tonight and find that I'm not going to get any supper
    'cause the range doesn't work.  This is a Tappan conventional coimbined
    oven and cooktop.  The Oven heats, but none of the cooktop rings
    work.  Ths little singal light that says the rings are on does light.
    
    The breaker is OK - yes, it's a breaker, so there is no possibility
    of one of the feeds being on and the other one off.  The clock works.
    I put a meter across one of the rings, and found that I had 110
    volts between each side of the ring  and ground, but almost (but
    not exactly) zero volts between the two sides.  I would have expected
    to find 204 volts.
    
    I can't get to the outlet that supplies the range (if there is one)
    without pulling the thing away from the wall - but I really don't
    have any theory to try.
    
    Also, I didn't understand wht I had 110 volts on each side at both
    high and at simmer.  I was wondering if the heat control worked
    by phase shifting.  Note 644 (about a Jenn Aire Range) says that
    they work by time-slicing.  Is this true in general?
    
    No, I don't have an oscilloscope handy.
    
    Help!
    
    	Andrew
    

I know it's a little on the obvious side, but did you pull out and 
re-seat the rings?  Did you check them for continuity and physical 
damage?  Did you ask what happened at home that was out of the ordinary 
and involved the range?  Did someone clean it, for example? (And let
fluid go down into the controls.) Did little feet stand on it to get to
a cabinet? (And mash the rings.)

If you've got power as far as the rings, it seems a little odd that 
they'd all go out at the same time.  I've had single burners go out 
because the ring just backed out of a good connection.  And I've had one 
go out because the ring got cracked.  I've never had them all quit at 
the same time without losing power to the rings.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    For future refeence, let me tell yoy what happened.
    
    I pulled out the stove, and started testing with a meter, starting
    at the outlet and working up.  After I'd undone a truely amazing
    number of sheet metal screws, I found the problem: a buch of charred
    wires.  Three wires went to the "L!" terminal on the junction block;
    one, which fed the rings was burned right through, and the other
    two (for the oven and the light) were on a their last few strands.
    
    Why?  The geezer who installed this range had done up the connection
    bolts with his fingers.  At least, the L2 and ground connections
    were finger tight; the burned up L1 connection has about 1/8 in
    play in it when I found it.  (Noone had bothered to screw the 50A
    outlet to the wall either, it was just hanging there by the cable.
     Lets hear it for builders.)
    
    A nice loose connection like that running at 50 Amps gets pretty
    warm ...  and I thougt that burning smell was oatmeal on the rings.
    Nothing here that couldn't be fixed with a new connection block,
    new pigtail, some crimp connectors and some heat resitant wire.
    
    Oh, why did I get 110 volts on both sides of the ring wrt ground,
    but zero across the two?  Easy: they were both at the same voltage.
    I hadn't taken out the ring!  One side of the ring was tied to L2,
    the other side was floating ...  Isn't it easy to junp to conclusions!
    

    I just bought a 26 year old house.  My husband and I are about to
    tackle the kitchen next - new cabinets, appliances, counter tops,
    floors, etc.  The current layout has a wall oven at one end of a
    counter and the cooktop is on another top on an adjoining wall.
     I bought a Jenn-Aire stove to replace the separate oven and cooktop.
     My questions are...
    
    	Which one, the oven or cooktop, has the 220 wire?  Is it both?
    
        Are there any problems/hints to installing the Jenn-Aire?
    
    		     
    
    		Thanks!!	

    I would think that the oven would have a 220v wire.  Is it gas or
    electric??
    
    
    Don

    Since I just asked virtually the same question in here a couple
    of months ago let me ask you... Have you ever heard of Murphy?
    
    
    Assuming that both cooktop and oven are electric, they will both
    be 220V. HOWEVER, they will probably be only 30A, and that is too
    low for a combined unit! 
    
    You will have to run a new 50A circuit to your fuse box and up the
    capacity of an existing slot or add a new one. You can't just up
    the fuse, as you probably know, you'll have to add a larger wire
    (either 8ga or 6ga, I forget which).
    
    I used the slot for the oven for the new circuit and used the existing 
    cooktop circuit to add a couple of 30A 3-wire outlets to the kitchen.
    
	Alan
    PS  Find out where the power has to come into your stove opening
        BEFORE you have the cable run. I had to move mine 6" :^{
    

    Depending on the JennAire model, the draw could be quite high (is
    it self cleaning, etc), so 50A is probably pretty close. Since
    JennAires vent down, you would have to set up the vent to the outside
    of the house. The instructions were pretty detailed about the venting
    requirements. Also, when installing the electric lines, remember
    that 50A requires 6 gauge cable, which is hard to work with and
    EXPENSIVE, but necessary. Good luck, but having a JennAire for 5
    years (I love doing steaks indoors when its raining), you'll enjoy
    it.
    
    Eric

    The Jenn-Aire is self-cleaning and is electric.  It sounds like
    it is going to be quite a project to move the wires and install
    it in another location!
    
    Thank you for the help.
    
       Joanne
    

Re  Note 1671.3 by LDP::BUSCH
                        -< How to repair oven control? >-

< I've got an electric stove with an oven that hasn't worked since April and my 
< wife is ready to kill me for not fixing it.  The problem seems to be in the 
< switch/thermostat for the oven. It doesn't feel or sound right.  I opened up 
< the control panel thinking it would be an easy job to replace a switch but, as
< mentioned in a previous reply, there are umpteen wires going to the darned 
< thing.  Anybody have any ideas on how to fix/remove/replace the control? What 
< would a replacement cost for me to fix? For a repairman to fix?

Dave (who's-glad-we-have-two-microwave-ovens-but-who-didn't-get-a-birthday-cake-
      this-year-'cause-my-wife's-trying-to-make-her-point)

Well, Monday night I finally got around to looking into the problem again. I 
removed the thermostat control and opened it up (thank goodness it wasn't 
riveted together, I hate non-repairable gizmos) and found that the electrical 
contacts were well blackened so I removed them and polished them up. After 
reassembling the control I tried it out and...still no luck. I opened it up 
again and checked out the resistance of various contacts and found them to be
kind of intermittent. Finally, I reconnected power and checked the wiring with 
a voltmeter and found that there wasn't even any power getting to the control.
There was power getting to the clock but no further. With an "Oh my god, could 
it be..." I reached for the automatic timer knob and gave it a turn. Sure enough
the pilot light AND the oven came on. I nearly died laughing. When I finally 
told my wife what had happened, of course she got defensive and said that SHE 
had never used that knob, and why didn't I think of checking that FIRST, blah, 
blah, blah. I guess that the problem was that the glass cover to the clock was 
SO crudded up with spattered grease, etc. that it was impossible to read the 
note which said to "return the control to MANUAL after using". The last thing my
wife said to me as the family laughter died down was, "Does this mean that I 
can't get a new stove?"

Dave (who's-glad-he-didn't-have-to-be-humiliated-by-having-to-pay-a-repairman-
      to-do-the-job)

    re: .14
    
    Well, at least you KNOW that your contacts are clean.
    
    -joet (in Pollyanna mode)

As notes elsewhere, I discovered my refrigerator was sharing its 
breaker with the rest of the kitchen.  Thus, I am going to run a 
seperate line for it back to the fuse box.  GE answer center says 15A 
is sufficient for all its refrigerators.  Is there any reason to run 
more than 15A, 14-2+gnd service?

thanx

Note 1980 made me reflect on some DIY wiring That I had done recently and
some questions which nagged me at the time.  I recently installed a built
in electric oven and stove top which (in the case of the stovetop) required
a different wiring configuration than the old one.  The original wiring
for the oven was three wire enclosed in bx cable (red, white and black).
No problem here since the instructions for the oven (which had red, white,
black, and bare copper ground) said to simply attach the ground *and*
white wire from the stove to the white wire from my three wire service.
Black and red wires then match up of course.  Now the problem:

The electric stovetop came with a red, black, and bare copper ground
(no white wire!).  The instructions said to tape and terminate the
white wire from the service, match up red and black wires, and ground
the bare coper wire from the stove to the cold water pipe. I took the
directions very literally and ran a ground wire from my cold water
pipe (same place as the main panel is grounded) up to the stoves ground
wire. I then connected the two inside the electrical box.  I think that I
am ok here but my problem is that I have this nagging suspicion that I may
either be wrong or have done things the hard way.  Specifically, I am
not sure why I couldn't just connect the stoves ground to the white
neutral wire which *is* grounded and *is* neutral (just as the wire I
ran from the cold water pipe is!).  This sounds like a scary idea, but
I just can't think of anything logically wrong with it.  
Problems similar to this have been discussed in other notes but noone has 
actually answered this question.
     

                No reason except that it seems ridiculous to do all
        that work and find sometime in the future that you now need a 20
        amp circuit. 12-2 with ground and the proper receptacle (20 amp)
        don't cost that much more, but the labor to do it again later
        sure does (even if it is your labor!).
                
                /s/     Bob

I just ran 12-3 + ground service for my refrigerator back to my fuse 
box.  Silly question:  why do I run both the white wire and the bare 
ground back to the fuse box when they are both connected to the same 
bus bar at the fuse box?

                Because the white wire is supposed to handle current and
        thus by ohms law will not be at ground, while the ground wire
        should only carry current if there is something wrong. It thus
        supplies a safe place to tie the case of the item being
        attached so that a fault internally will not make the case hot.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
                
 BTW - that strip in the MAIN fuse/breaker box is the ONLY place where
        the ground and neutral should be tied together.

It is better if you  think of white as RETURN instead of GROUND since there are
some applications where white has very  little to do with ground.  When you are
running a switch from the base of a light, for instance, the white wire will be
used as a return wire from the switch.    With  the switch on, a careless DIYer
will soon learn that white is not always ground.

The ground lead lets you be sure you have  a return to ground that is always at
ground potential (plus the drop over the length of the  wire).  In that way you
can  ground  the  switch  box where using a two-wire-with-no-ground system will
"float" the box.

It get real interesting in older houses that had  two  wire  cabling for lights
and outlets;  often little care was taken to which  lead  was hot and which was
not.

Additionally,  the  grounding  strip    in    the   service  panel  is  seldom,
unfortunately, at a good ground  potential.  It is fed by the neutral line from
the power feed, but it should be tied to a ground rod that physically goes into
the ground below the frost line.  Simply tying to a water pipe is a good way to
get a bad ground.

    	Interesting comment about the ground wire to the pipe. Lets
    take that idea a little further. What happens if you loose that
    connection all together? How should one go about reconnecting if
    you decide to move the pipe or the connection becomes poor. 
    	I remeber during hurricane Gloria the wires to my house were
    ripped off the pole and when they came to reconnect they told
    me I could have blown all my appliances if the neutral went before
    the other 2 lines. They also said they had to FLASH the line to
    check it. What the hell does that mean?
    
    			Just some thoughts...
    ...Dave
    

     It's a good idea to put in 12/2, in case your needs change in the
    future. But put in the 15 amp breaker as suggested by the manufacturer.
    It's not good to have too large a breaker for the intended load.
    An example would be a problem in the fridge (short etc.) that draws
    more than the internal wiring of the fridge can handle but not
    enough to trip the breaker. You can believe the manufacturer did
    not over-wire the fridge.
      Unless you have an unusually long run, the diff in cost will probably
    be less than a dollar, and you'll be covered if your future needs
    change.
    
    					Kenny

re .4

Strange  you  should  mention  Gloria.  I actually DID lose my neutral from the
pole in that storm - but only the neutral.  The symptoms were incredible.  Some
lights ran dim, when the refrigerator came on lights in another circuit dimmed,
motors in general ran "funny" and the microware actually whistled!  Current was
flowing  back  and forth between the two  feed  lines  which  do  not  normally
maintain a constant potential and phase difference.

I dove for the main breaker and killed  the supply.  The only reason we did not
have SHOCKING problems, is that the service panel is,  indeed, well grounded to
the earth.  I shut off the power before any damage was done to motors, although
two lights went into NOVA and died.

The  only  advantage  to  a  grounded  water pipe  system  is  to  keep  static
electricity down to a dull roar, so they taught  us.   Another reason, although
not by design, is so Ma Bell can have a  handy path to ground for the lightning
arrestors (carbon blocks) that you attach your internal wiring to.   You  ought
to see what happens to a wiring circuit that is NOT earth  grounded,  but  just
water  pipe  grounded, when lightning hits the phone lines, shunts to the water
pipes  from  the  carbon blocks and then to the water while looking for a  good
ground!!! (hope you are not on the pot)

Don't know for  sure  what  "flash"  meant, however after they re-attached your
service, they should have  done  a  high  voltage  panel-ground to earth-ground
check before they left your  house.    Power  and Telephone company guys have a
lingo all their own.

Dave

re: .0

Sounds to me like the stove top runs on 240V.  If so, you did the job
correctly.

A general question:

What does the "average" code specify these days for electric range wiring?
Traditionally, 8/3 (no ground) was run, and the neutral (return) was tied
to the frame of the range.  This is bad news, because if you loose the neutral
connection, you have in effect a large conductor sitting at 120V in your
kitchen should you turn a burner (which usually run at 120V) on!

The reason I ask is both curiousity and the fact that in my new home (which 
has a gas stove), the dryer outlet was wired with no ground connection on the 
outlet.  Which means, of course, that my dryer is either grounded through the 
neutral or not grounded at all, neither of which is especially comforting.

/Al

Another consideration:  having 20A service in the kitchen may enhance the 
resale value of your house.  Don't just consider your changing needs; also 
consider those of the next owner (or prospective owner).

FWIW, the National Electrical Code requires two 20A circuits dedicated to 
"small appliances" in the kitchen.  (The fridge may be plugged into one of 
these circuits; dishwashers, disposals, electric stoves may not.)  Anytime 
you modify wiring, you're supposed to bring the part you modify up to the 
current Code.

    If you put in a 20-amp circuit, make sure you put in a 20-amp outlet
    too.  

    I always thought that if you put in 12 ga wire you HAD to use a
    20A breaker.  14 ga and 15 A breaker.
    
    If you do otherwise it's not to code.  That way one can look at
    the wire and know what the breaker is or look at the breaker and
    know what the wire is.
    
    What's the motivation for putting a 15A breaker on a 20A circuit?
    So you don't use it to it's full capacity.  Chances are real good
    that if a problem develops the 15A breaker is not going to trip
    any faster or more reliably than the 20.
    
    I once heard of a guy running 12 ga wire to a box which split out
    to multi 14 ga lights.  Inspector made him rip it out.

    As far as I know, you can always use a breaker smaller than the
    capacity of the wire, that's no problem.  
    
    In the instance you cite, as long as the guy used a 15amp breaker
    (to protect the 14-gauge wire) I think the circuit would have met
    the letter of the code.  However, it would have been misleading.
    Somebody later on could have come along, seen the 12-gauge wire
    in the breaker box, and not knowing about the 14-gauge wire later
    on in the circuit, put in a 20-amp breaker.  I'm not surprised
    the inspector didn't like it.
    

According to the guy wiring my addition, current code *requires* all new
outlets in a kitchen to be 20 amp/12 gauge and there must be no more
than two outlets per circuit.  The idea is that even though a 15-amp
circuit is sufficient for a circuit dedicated to a refrigerator, they
are protecting a future owner who might tap off the line and put in 
another outlet. 

I would use a 20 amp breaker for the reasons stated in earlier notes. 

Alex

    As I understand the NEC, there are special exceptions for Ranges
    and Dryers, which allow the frame to be tied to the neutral, and
    not grounded.  However, the same code requires dedicated circuits
    for both these appliances, so there will not be some other device
    on the same circuit causing the neutral to be above ground potential.
    
    Since the neutral goes all the way back to the main panel neutral
    busbar as one un-interrupted piece of copper (or Aluminium), you
    are unlikely to loose it - less likely to loose it than you are
    likely to loose a regular ground.  But if you did, you are right:
    the frame would be hot, and the burner would not work.

	Andrew

re: .7

In the case of the aforementioned dryer, I moved the wall that the outlet
was in and, in doing so, put in a junction box and spliced a new section of
cable onto the existing run.  Is this still considered an "uninterrupted" 
run or have I violated code?

/Al

>According to the guy wiring my addition, current code *requires* all new
>outlets in a kitchen to be 20 amp/12 gauge and there must be no more
>than two outlets per circuit.  

Out of interest, what is the rationale to limiting the number of outlets
per circuit ?  In a kitchen especially you _always_ seem to want to plug
in an appliance somewhere that's nowhere near an outlet :-)   The point
is that the total load from your _n_ appliances is not related to the 
number of outlets available. The number of outlets relates to convenience
not to circuit load.

Henry (who_put_seven_double_outlets_off_two_circuits_in_his_kitchen_when
       _he_reworked_it_a_couple_of_years_ago)

    Good question!  I was about to add it myself.  I need to move my
    range and my dryera few fee to the side.  I couldn't find anything
    in Richter and Schwann that said that there couln't be a slice,
    just that there can be no other applicance on the same circuit.
    
    But Richter and Schwann isn't THE CODE.
    
    	Andrew
    

                Without knowning the code, but realizing tha most of it
        is common sense, 4 outlets (two doubles) as a max makes sense in
        a kitchen. Take a look at the power requirements of most kitchen
        appliances and you will find that they are power hogs (obviously
        I don't mean the hand mixer and can opener type). The 4 outlet
        restriction serves to help limit the probability of overload.
        (Of course it doesn't eliminate it - that would take ONE outlet
        per circuit.)
                
                /s/     Bob

>                Without knowning the code, but realizing tha most of it
>        is common sense, 4 outlets (two doubles) as a max makes sense in
>        a kitchen. Take a look at the power requirements of most kitchen
>        appliances and you will find that they are power hogs (obviously
>        I don't mean the hand mixer and can opener type). The 4 outlet
>        restriction serves to help limit the probability of overload.


Yes, but with the wire, outlet, and breakers properly sized, what is
the HARM of overload.  THe fuse will blow long before any other hazard 
presents itself - sounds like, after all the requirements of heavy
enough wire, proper fuses, proper outlet sizes, etc., the 'number of
outlets' limitation is unnecessary and counter productive (unless, of
course, you make your living installing kitchen wiring) 

The limitation might also encourage use of multi-way taps, which ARE a 
hazard, no?

                Harm?  Other than inconvience, little if any. I believe
        that it is trying to encourage you to put more circuits in. This
        would be safer and more convienent.
                
                /s/     Bob

>  Yes, but with the wire, outlet, and breakers properly sized, what is
>  the HARM of overload.  

But what happens if your breaker fails?  The code is written by people 
who are in the fire prevention business, they have to worry about that 
sort of thing.

That said, I'll add that I just had my kitchen redone, and when the 
electrician wired up the appliance circuits, I asked him to double-gang 
the outlets, that is put two duplex outlets in a double box at each of 
the two sites he was going to put outlets.  He did it and the building 
inspector signed it off.  So maybe you can slime past the code like I 
did. :-)
					>>>==>PStJTT

re: .42

It's the same logic that specifies the MAXIMUM distance between outlets
in general living areas.  YOU may be satisifed with one or two per room,
but subsequent owners may not. Like it or not, the code attempts to factor
anticipated use into it's specifications, not just safety.

/Al

>>			 Like it or not, the code attempts to factor
>>anticipated use into it's specifications, not just safety.

    
    I don't think it's quite that simple. They are trying to avoid future
    reliance of extension cords.  For example, the prior owners of my
    house stapled extension cords along the walls to provide
    pseudo-additional outlets. From what I understand, this is not that 
    uncommon. I believe that this is what the code is trying to avoid
    which still translates to safety.

    -Jim

    Re:  Refrig circuit.   Some complex fancy new refrigerators draw
    a fair amount of current (9-10-11 amps or so).  Running something
    else on the refrigerator circuit may or may not be practical.  Lots
    of small appliances draw fairly heavily (coffee maker, elect frypan).
    You could be tight even on 20A.
    
    For the above reason, I think it makes sense to dedicate a circuit
    to the refrigerator (or share it with something small, like the
    lights or a range hood).  Meet the code requirements by using two
    additional 20A circuits for kitchen outlets.

    Re: Number of outlets on a circuit.  I think the code is a little
    mushy here.  I have a friend who is a contractor who was into
    super-tight insulation.  To that end, he would not put conventional
    outlet boxes in outside walls because it would break the vapor barrier
    or otherwise mess with his R-4536 insulation.  So he used this very
    expensive commercial surface-mounted baseboard strip the length
    of each wall, with an outlet every foot or so.  He always ran into
    inspection problems with the number of outlets, but the inspectors
    could give no reason why it was a problem, particularly with a buss-bar
    type unit where losses from all the connections in a long daisy-chain
    of conventional outlets weren't an issue.  This guy and his electrician
    are good talkers and they always got away with it.
    

    Re: previous few.
    
    Stove IS an NEC special case.  You can use 8/2 or 6/2 with ground
    and no neutral if and only if 
    
    1) Circuit is dedicated.
    2) Circuit breaker is in MAIN (not SUBMAIN) panel.
    3) (My interpretation) No intermediate boxes.  
   
    I say my interpretation because I didn't explicitly read it but
    with that additional splice box you now have more places things
    can go wrong and you are already compromising the neutral/ground
    separation principles by running the return of any 115 V stove
    components through ground.
    
    Note that if you buy a 50A range outlet, there is not even a place
    to attach a neutral connector, the three screws are labelled black,
    red, and bare.    
    

re: last two (extending a circuit with a splice)

I too would appreciate a (correct) comment on the above. I am moving my 
dryer to a new location. Obviously, I could install a new home run back 
to the circuit breaker. It would be much easier, however, for me to 
just extend the wiring already in place (using a junction box). My gut 
feel is that this is not a good idea (adding a possible failure/high 
resistance point to a 230V, 30A circuit).

Chuck

    .48:
    
    I found one of those in my first office here, with about 8' of Romex
    and a plug hanging off the end.  I've made d--n sure not to lose
    it in subsequent office moves: it is beyond price.
    
    My current office has 3 duplex outlets in the partition "baseboard".
    The way I prefered to set up my office furniture, one was blocked
    by the desk leg, and it took some jockeying of bookcases to avoid
    blocking the others (one of which is located in a marginally useful
    spot, the other in a quite useless place).  The power strip is
    invaluable here.
    
    Dick
    

  RE .2

>                Because the white wire is supposed to handle current and
>        thus by ohms law will not be at ground, while the ground wire
>        should only carry current if there is something wrong. It thus
>        supplies a safe place to tie the case of the item being
>        attached so that a fault internally will not make the case hot.

But the white wire *is* exactly what is used for the ground in the case of
the oven.  Why is it OK there but not for the stovetop.  Note that
while the white wire *can* carry current, it certainly does not in this
case. The stove is 240 which it gets through the red and black wires. Each
of which has a potential difference of 120 from the white (but in opposite 
direction).  The white is currently not connected to anything.


re .3

> It is better if you  think of white as RETURN instead of GROUND since there are
> some applications where white has very  little to do with ground.  When you are
> running a switch from the base of a light, for instance, the white wire will be
> used as a return wire from the switch.    With  the switch on, a careless DIYer
> will soon learn that white is not always ground.

Again, the white wire *can* carry current but certainly does not in this case.


> The ground lead lets you be sure you have  a return to ground that is always at
> ground potential (plus the drop over the length of the  wire). 

This is probably the real answer.  i.e. Although it could be done
in this case it just isn't a good wiring practice because it doesn't adhere
to standard usage for the white wire.  I am in total agreement with all 
arguments of this sort. 


re: .6

> Sounds to me like the stove top runs on 240V.  If so, you did the job
> correctly.
> A general question:
> What does the "average" code specify these days for electric range wiring?
> Traditionally, 8/3 (no ground) was run, and the neutral (return) was tied
> to the frame of the range.  This is bad news, because if you loose the neutral
> connection, you have in effect a large conductor sitting at 120V in your
> kitchen should you turn a burner (which usually run at 120V) on!

The stove is indeed 240V.  I am not sure why you would be more likely to
lose the neutral connection between the appliance and the panel, than you 
would an independent ground connection. As I said before I *know* my oven 
was designed to be grounded through the neutral wire.

re .7

>    As I understand the NEC, there are special exceptions for Ranges
>    and Dryers, which allow the frame to be tied to the neutral, and
>    not grounded.  However, the same code requires dedicated circuits
>    for both these appliances, so there will not be some other device
>    on the same circuit causing the neutral to be above ground potential.
>    
>    Since the neutral goes all the way back to the main panel neutral
>    busbar as one un-interrupted piece of copper (or Aluminium), you
>    are unlikely to loose it - less likely to loose it than you are
>    likely to loose a regular ground.  But if you did, you are right:
>    the frame would be hot, and the burner would not work.

Yes!  My situation fits this exactly.  I *do* have a dedicated circuit.
Based on this I would certainly expect that I could attach the bare copper
ground (from the stove frame) to the neutral wire since it is:
	a) guarranteed to be at ground potential.
	b) Connected to an approved ground.
	c) At least as dependable as an independent ground wire.
     
    * By the way I am not saying these three are always true, just
      that they are true in my case. For instance I have verififed b).
    
Again I am not saying that this *is* the way to do this, just that it sure
seems to be feasible.
                                                                      

 re: The number of outlets 


  The code does specify a minium load for each receptacle (see below),
 I interpert this as 1.5A minimun per outlet so a 15 A branch could 
 have no more than 10 receptacles and a 20A branch 13. I'm not sure
 what they define as a multiple outlet and don't know how the power
 stips in .47 would be counted. Conditions and exceptions apply, so 
 don't take my word for it.

  Section 220-3(c)(4)
         For receptacle outlets, each single or multiple receptacle
        shall be considered at not less than 180 volt amperes.
Jim



 P.S. I got my code book from Nashua City Hall for about $30 vs. the
      $44 I have seen it for elsewhere It seems Nashua is a member 
      and gets the books for a discount. They also have the One and
      Two Family Dwelling Code, BOCA Building code and some plumbing
      code book also at a discount.

    I was reading Richter and Schwann (1987) again last night.  My wife
    decided that she wanted a separate cooktop and oven to replace our
    existing range.  Of course, right now we have a single 50A circuit
    serving the range.
    
    It turns out that although the preferred way of wiring the two separate
    appliances is with two separate 30A circuits, it IS acceptable to
    use the existing 50A circuit and add a branch.  Naturally, this
    involves a splice; the diagram in  R&S shows the boxes quite clearly.
    So, I would assume that there is nothing taboo about using a proper
    splice in the single range case either.
    
    R&S also claims that if one uses recepticles to serve the oven and
    cooktop, they must be 50A, whereas I would have thought that 30A
    would be fine, assuming the appliance draws less that 30A.  The
    single 50A circuit does have the disadvantage that a separate "means
    of disconnection" must be provided for each appliance, e.g. 30A
    breaker in the cabinet.
    

Ok, if you guys can't help me, I'm calling Bob Villa for his simple,
inexpensive solution!

Does anyone know anything about installing an electrical outlet in a floor?

I have a family room where the sofa and chairs are located approx. 4 feet from
the walls.  I want to put a floor outlet under the sofa so I can plug in lamps
(located on both sides of the sofa).  I've seen this setup in hotel lobbies
etc.  

The floor is carpeted, and there is cable/junction box in the general location
in basement for the outlet (when the house was built, I had the electrician
run the line in case we decided to to this -- my wife has now decided -:).   
My questions:

Do I need a special box?  Someone mentioned a box with "adjustable" sides
to account for the thickness of the floor and carpeting.

Do I need a special outlet or cover to protect against spills, dust, etc.?

Is there any way to "hide" the box in the event we decide to move the sofa
someday?  In that case, I wouldn't want an outlet in the middle of the floor.
One wild thought (OK, it's a "hack") is to mount the outlet on the floor joist
in the basement, cut a 3-sided "flap" in the carpeting, drill a hole in
the floor, and plug in a "multi-outlet".  The lamps can be plugged into
the multi-outlet that will be out of sight under the sofa.  If we move the
furniture, I could simply unplug the multi-outlet and smooth out the carpeting.

Thanks,
-Bruce

P.S. 
Yes, Bob and Norm, I plan on donating sweat equity, can get a signature loan for
$400 grand, and don't mind rebuilding my entire house for this one outlet
:-).  

 
         

    I'm sorry, your foundation can not take the weight of an additional
    outlet.  If you want us to do this job you are going to have to
    raise the house, rip out the basement and foundation and pour a
    new one.
    
    I should mention that TOH only uses the new 24 karat solid gold
    electrical wire and to install your outlet we are going to have to 
    re-wire your entire house.  $400K sounds a little puny for this job 
    but we may be able to squeeze the price by getting some of the 
    materials donated.  Do you have any savings for your kid's education 
    that you can draw upon?
    
    Signed "in famous addicta"
    Bob and Norm

The subject of floor plugs brings back unpleasant memories. 

We once lived in a VERY old house on Bedford (MA) that had floor plugs.

We also had a dog who delivered a litter of puppies.

One of the pups (named Pansy) p......d in the plug.

We had to call the fire department who checked out the basement to make sure
all those sparks hadn't started a fire somewhere.

Poor Pansy was very upset.

By all means, if you are installing a floor plug, protect it from spills.

Betty

    See notes 450.50, and 450.51.
    

Funny that this should come up ...
    
    I THINK that my wife has finally decided that she wants an island
    counter in the kitchen.  Until we can afford to replace all of the
    cabinets, we plan to use a mobile cart on the site of the island.
    However, because I'ld be removing an existing peninsula, I need to
    replace the floor covering, and am planning on ceramic tile.
    
    I thought that a floor outlet under the cart would be handy.  I
    had in  mind one of those brass things with a screw-in or fold-down
    cap that are flush with the floor when not in use.
    
    Questions:  Does anyone know where one can buy them, in
    the Nashua NH / Littleton MA area?
                   
    The floor is a concrete slab.  How deep do I have to channel the slab
    for the cable?  1/2" would do to get UF Romex below the tile, and the
    tile cement would hold it down ...  Or do I have to cut a four inch
    trench with a diamond saw and put down new cement?  If this is the
    case, I'll probably forget the idea. 
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    You should be able to find them at any electrical supply house
    Hubbell is one manufacturer brand to check into.
    
    -j
    

    Electrical Supplies can be purchased at RALPH PILLS, RTE 102 LONDONDERRY
    & RTE. 28 SALEM, N. H. OR COMMUNITY ELECTRICAL, KENDALL POND RD. DERRY.
              

    Thanks for the addresses -- but I'm probably not going to drive
    100 miles for an outlet.
    
    Actually, the outlet question is now moot, since I think that we
    will spring for the Island Counter right away.  The question of
    how deeply I have to channel the floor still stands, however.
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    We are planning on putting in a floor outlet in an addition being built
    in Pepperell.   We spoke with a guy at Johnson Electric in Nashua
    about this and he told us we should get a brass outlet with cover
    plate.  His price for this was $63!  Does brass have to be 
    used, or is there something else ?  Someone mentioned a Hubbell,
    does anyone have any more information on this ?
    
    thanks
    Karen Curran

    Brass is the material most are made of I doubt there is any reason
    beyond that it looks better(dosent rust,crack). The price of $60
    sounds very high unless it is to be in concrete which are special
    boxes the cover plate is the same. 
    Re. channeling the floor(is the floor concrete?) you shouldent have
    cut anything over a 3" hole for the outlet provided you can get to the
    underside and work from there.
    
    -j
    

    Bought a Broan hood range yesterday and have a question on electrical
    connection. The wall already has a 2 3-prong plug outlet. I want
    to connect the wires from the Broan to an extension cable ( the
    extension cable is 3-prong type and the female side is cut so that
    it can be tie to the Broan's wire ), and then plug the extension
    cable to the outlet.  
    
    The Broan has three white wires that is tie together, a black wire, 
    and a screw that you can fasten the ground wire. The picture in the 
    installation sheet shows that :
    
    	Broan  wire					outlet wire
                   
        3 white    -----------------------------------  white
        1 black    -----------------------------------  black
        ground ( screw ) -----------------------------  green
    
     
    BUT, the stripped extension cable has wires in different color:
    a green with yellow stripe wire, a brown wire and a blue wire.
    Now, how should these wires be connected ?

    One sure way is to buy a $2 continuity checker and see which one
    goes to ground, hot side, cold side.
    
    Tim
    

    re: .1
    
    I can OHM the continuty. But which one is hot, cold, and ground?
    
    	  cable pin ( male side ) looking from the front
    
    			     1	@	@  2
    
    				    @
                             
                                    3

    Your snake uses the international colors.  I just checked with the
    power supply group and got the straight scope.
    
    International	American	usage
    -------------	--------	---------------
    Brown		Black		Hot
    Blue		White		Return
    Green/yel		Green		Ground/earth
    
    doug
    

    re: .3
    
    Thanks for the info. I wired the hood up last night and it worked.

    Before you cut into the floor, check your local code.  In the town
    where I live new floor outlets are illegal and old ones must be
    covered with a screwed-on plate before selling a home.
    
    Peg

RE: two many outlets...

I think the point that some people are trying to make is that although 2 20 Amp
lines are enough to service as many kitchen appliances as you could possibly
imagine running at the same time, it's quite probable that you will have too
many gadgets to be able to plug them all in, or there may not be outlets where
you want to plug them in if you are limited to just four outlets. 

Jim

We have an electric kitchen stove which is about 15 years old. 
About 2 months ago, the large front burner died.  I went to Sears
and bought the replacement burner and the socket it plugs into.
($30.00 for the burner plus a few for the socket !)

My husband replaced the burner and its working good as new.

Now both small burners are not fully heating.  Only half the
coils heat up.

Before I go out and spend more $$$ to replace the 2 burners,
can someone help me out?

Could it be the actual stove which is biting the dust?
Or do the burners simply wear out over time?

My concern is that I spend $120.00+ to replace all 4 burners
and then the stove dies.  I could have put that $120.00 toward
a new stove.

(p.s. the oven works fine) 


Thanks
Joanne

    Yes, heating elements do wear out. I've had to replace several over
    the years. Nothing is forever (not even plutonium). If the life
    of the elements begins to decrease then I would seriously con-
    sider a new stove. 15 years isn't bad - some will last longer,
    some won't. They're kinda like light bulbs - you get lucky sometimes.
    
    Chip

    
    
    Check the connection of the old elements and their sockets.
    Since this problem showed up after you replaced the one element
    it is probably a connection or wiring problem.

   I recently replaced an "infinite" switch on an electric stove.  This is the
 rotary switch (potentiometer) that controls the amount of heat output by
 the heating element.

  After replacing the switch, things worked fine, for a short time.  My tenant
 called me a few days later to tell me that only one burner out of the four
 was working, but the oven was working fine.  When I got back the the scene, I
 realized that I had, in the process of changing the switch, caused another
 problem.  I had to move wires around in the back of the stove to get the old
 switch out, and in the process, had bent some of the soldered connections.
 The soldered connections are not very elastic, and cannot take much bending-
 so they broke, apparently after I had left, maybe due to some vibration.
 I had to re-wire a section of the stove wiring complete with new crimps, etc.

 So, the moral is to make sure you don't cause a problem in parrallel with
 fixing one!

 Schematics for electric stoves are incredibly simple, there are only a few
 things that can go wrong.  As long as parts are available for the stove,
 and as long as it is still functional, I'd keep replacing parts.  (Unless
 you can't stand the sight of the thing)

    
    
    Thanks for the input.  I've printed the replies and will
    bring them home today.  
    
    Decisions, Decisions, Decisions !!!
                                   
    
    
    Joanne
    

I know that the electrical codes call for at least one outlet over each counter.
Also I believe you need one at least every 4 running feet.  My problem is that
I'm going to have an island.  Part of it will have an elevated counter and 
a significant portion (5'X9') of it will not.  I plan on installing some outlets
in the facing.  I have 2 questions:

	o	The wires going to the outlets in the facing will need to go
		through the cabints to get there.  Do I use conduit to protect
		the cable?  If not, what?

	o	On the big section of counter, are there any requirements for
		outlets?  I'd like to install some below the counter even if
		not required.  Are there any special code here?

-mark

>I'm going to have an island.  Part of it will have an elevated counter and 
>a significant portion (5'X9') of it will not.  I plan on installing some outlets
>in the facing. 

>	o	The wires going to the outlets in the facing will need to go
>		through the cabints to get there.  Do I use conduit to protect
>		the cable?  If not, what?

I can't quite envision your scheme, However your island is considered kitchen
counter space and must have an outlet every two feet. You might see if
Wiremold has devices that might help you out. Wiremold would also be a good way
to get your wire through the cabinets.
>
>	o	On the big section of counter, are there any requirements for
>		outlets?  I'd like to install some below the counter even if
>		not required.  Are there any special code here?
>
>-mark

See above.	The only problem I can think of in installing below counter 
outlets is: The outlets must be part of the 20 amp small appliance circuits.
No big deal.

Ross

    1) Unprotected cable cannot pass through the inside of the cabinet
    since it risks being struck by things you store in the cabinet.
    Need conduit - rigid or flexible (greenfield).
    
    2) To get outlets for surface small appliances, just install them
    in the back of the cabinet (opposite the doors) just below the lip
    of the countertop.  Can use wiremold or strip outlets to hack up
    cabinetry less, but regular outlets probably look best - cut the
    holes with a sabre saw and use old-work boxes with flex conduit
    via regular romex connectors on the inside of the cabinet.

    3) If doors on both sides of island, then put an outlet on each
    end.  You'll be within code unless your island is over 12' long.

Thanks Jim, I was just about to write convinced that .-2 was wrong when I saw
your reply.  BUT my island is more than 12' long, it's 14' long.  Half of it
will have a raised back and I intend to install 3 outlets there.  My main 
question is around the part that isn't elevated.  I agree than the only real
place to install outlets is right below the li and since with all that space
I really doubt we'll ever put appliances there I just as soon put in the
minimum.  Do you know offhand how the code is worded?  

-MARK

210-52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle (b) Counter Tops.

"In Kitchen and dining areas of dwelling units a receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each counter space wider than 12 inches."



No, this doesn't mean one outlet per run of counter top. It means every 12"
of counter space should have an accessible outlet. If you space your outlets
every two feet, you always have an accessible outlet for a small appliance.
(That have a 12" to 24"  cord). I don't think you'ld really want less outlets.

Ross

I've gotta believe you're quoting something out of context and getting something
wrong in the process.

I specifically recall that part of the issue is if there is a backsplash 
(although I don't know how it's worded) and therefore doesn't apply to islands.
I've seen a lot of islands with only an outlet or 2 and I know that they're
within code.

Hopefully I get around to calling my electrical inspector to get the details.

-mark

    Actually, the code is merely stating that a counter which is less
    than 12 wide doesn't need an outlet.  The general 6' rule for outlets
    is still valid for kitchens.
    

>< Note 2966.7 by NETMAN::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >
>
>
>I've gotta believe you're quoting something out of context and getting something
>wrong in the process.

Here it is again: 210-52. Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. (b) Counter Tops.
In Kitchen and dining areas of dwelling units a receptacle outlet shall be 
installed at each counter space wider than 12 inches (305 mm). Counter top 
spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered
as seperate counter top spaces. Receptacles rendered inaccessible by appliances
fastened in place or appliances occupuying dedicated space shall not be
considered as these required outlets.


The 6 foot rule applies to kitchen wall space. Counter tops are
covered under the separate 210-52 (b). For argument lets say the typical counter
has a one foot outside range cabinet (needs outlet), other side of range -
to sink (needs outlet), other side of sink (needs outlet) - to turn on back wall
(2nd wall needs outlet)- to refrigerator. Islands used as room dividers are
treated as wall space. The example that I used may have more spacing than
2 feet. I'll have to check into this one. (I was taught the two foot rule
and may be misinterpreting code for the sake of proper workmanship). 
Irregardless, this is a case when you would want to install more than code 
minimum. Put in a practical amount of receptacles in your island.
Two duplex's aren't enough. I'll get a ruling on the code.


Ross

>minimum. Put in a practical amount of receptacles in your island.
>Two duplex's aren't enough. I'll get a ruling on the code.


I was in error on the NEC kitchen counter outlet spacing. It is possible
(under NEC rules) to space the outlets a greater distance than two feet.
The guidelines are spelled out in my previous reply.
However, I have run into local regulations that require more than code minimum,
check with your local electrical inspector.
I still wouldn't wire a kitchen with more than (approx). 2 ft spacing. It isn't
practical and not safe.  People tend to use cheap adapters to get by with too 
few outlets. As stated before, it's not against code to exceed minimum 
requirements.
 

Ross

I wasn't really happy about how this note was going so I called my electrical
inspector.  I know for a fact that this guy is considered by many electrical
supply houses to be one the pickiest of them all.  

He confirmed what I originally thought, namely that if you have an island
without a backsplash you don't need ANY outlets!  I went on to ask him about
what type of wire to run and whether or not it can be exposed.  He said romex
is fine.  I asked if it'd be ok to stuff it in some conduit and again he said
fine. 

I guess this just goes to reinforce what many (including me - bite my own 
tongue) have said.  If you have a question about codes, DON'T ASK IT HERE!
You'll not only get different answers, you'll get wrong answers.

-mark

>< Note 2966.11 by NETMAN::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >
>                              -< wrong again... >-


>He confirmed what I originally thought, namely that if you have an island
>without a backsplash you don't need ANY outlets!  I went on to ask him about
>what type of wire to run and whether or not it can be exposed.  He said romex
>is fine.  I asked if it'd be ok to stuff it in some conduit and again he said
>fine. 


That's Bull! If you read the code, the island must be treated as wall space!
I would also say having even the minimum required receptacles in a kitchen
work area would be considered poor workmanship and not practical. Yes, you could
probably get away with romex, but this again is poor workmanship.

<FLAME ON>

You know the tone of your note amazes me. The code was quoted in it's
entirety, other people offered suggestions on how to perhaps do your project in
a "better" way and this is your reply! Why don't you go and get an electrician's
license if you don't trust the advice given in this file.

>FLAME OFF<

Ross

re:.-1

Perhaps I was a bit strong in my tone and for that I apologize.  However, I 
still believe you are not giving out the correct advise on how to wire an 
island.  The code may indeed say what you've quoted, but that may not apply to
islands which may be considered to be a special case.  I've seen LOTS of houses
with islands (or peninsulas) which do not have outlets anywhere on them.  There
are a rare few people who may put in 1.

Why you ask?  There's no where to put an outlet on the front of a cabinet,
especially when the majority of them only have 1-1/2" wide casing on them.
A box simply won't fit.

One of the problems I have with this notes file (and again, I'm sorry you got
the brunt of it) is that many times people will state something is absolutely
positively the way they say it is when it simply isn't so.

I have a copy of the code at home and I remember finding little tidbits 
scattered throughout the book, any if taken out of context could be 
misinterpretted.  One example is the 6' outlet rule.  I'm sure there's a
sentence in there that says you need an outlet every 6 feet. BUT - there is
another place in the code which talks about kitchen wiring and says the rules
for counters are different and I believe it's every 4 feet in that case. 
I'll bet tucked away under some obscure sub-paragraph is a comment about islands
and rather than read through the whole book looking for it I decided to ask it
here.

-mark

Mark, I think part of the problem is trying to visualize what you're trying
to accomplish. I can quote code and offer suggestions, but also can be off
simply because I can't visualize your scheme. I've wired many kitchens and
have some ideas as to what works and what doesn't. 

Code rules for kitchen outlet spacing: The kitchen wall space should be treated
as regular rooms, (6 ft rule, 12 ft spacing), with the following exceptions:
any counter top space 12" or more must have an outlet, any counter top space 
divided by a fixed appliance must have an outlet, spaces divided by a sink must
have outlets. Islands, contrary to your electrical inspector, must have outlets.


    <-------8 ft------->
              X
Refr.____________________
		      ^	|			
		   5ft|	|	
		      |	|X GFCI	
	              |	|
			s
			i
			n
			k	
			|
<------8ft----->	|X GFCI			X=outlet
_______X________        |
       X
   (Island)		R
			a
			n
			g
			e
			| ^
			|X| 2ft	
			| |


210-52. Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
  (a) General Provisons. In every kitchen, family room, dining room,living room,
parlor, library, den, sun room, bedroom, recreation room, or similar rooms of
dwelling units, receptacles outlets shall be installed so that no point along
the floor line in any wall space is more than 6 feet (1.83 m), measured
horizontally, from an outlet in that space, including any wall space 2 feet
(610 mm) or more in width and the wall space occupied by sliding panels in
exterior walls. The wall space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as 
_________________________________
|free-standing bar-type counters|, shall be included in the 6 foot (1.83-m) 
---------------------------------
measurement.
	As used in this section a "wall space" shall be considered a wall
unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings.
Each wall space 2 or more feet (610 mm or more) wide shall be treated
individually and separately from other wall spaces within the room. A wall
space shall be permitted to include two or more walls of a room (around
corners) where unbroken at the floor line.

  (b) Counter Tops. In kitchen and dining areas of dwelling units a receptacle
outlet shall be installed at each counter space wider than 12 inches (305 mm).
Counter tops spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be
considered as separate counter spaces. Receptacles rendered inaccesible by 
appliances fastened in place or appliances occupying dedicated soace shall not
be considered as these required outlets."


The Island space is wall space and must have outlets installed, (Can be placed
where you want them, up high or low). I guess you can leave the outlets out, 
if your electrical inspector approves, but the Code say's otherwise.


Ross

    RE: the last couple
    
    	In MY opinion, what these last couple of notes indicate is that
    	if there are any questions about any type of building, plumbing,
    	electrical, etc. code, use the appropriate book for reference...
    
    		and then ask the building inspector !!!
    
    	When all is said and done, it doesn't really matter what the
    	code says, it is how the inspector interprets the code.
    
    - Mark

>< Note 2966.15 by SEESAW::PILANT "L. Mark Pilant" >
>                      -< Code vs the building inspector >-
>
>    RE: the last couple
    
>   
>    	When all is said and done, it doesn't really matter what the
>    	code says, it is how the inspector interprets the code.
>    
>    - Mark



Yes, The inspector can overrule Code. (Usually the ruling is more stringent.)
However, The Code and the inspector are interested in minimum requirements.
Even if the inspector requires no outlets in the island counter and you plan
on using it for food preparation, don't you want outlets? Do what makes sense,
but also keep minimum requirements in mind. There's always a method of 
installing receptacles in difficult areas. Wiremold is one way.

Ross

I went home last night and attmpted to find what I wanted in the code - alas I
didn't really.  I think an electrician is kind of like an accountant since
not many people have the desire (or time) to try and interpret tax laws.
Similarly, the code is NOT written to be easily interpretted.

The code that applies to kitchen in scattered about in several sections.  I did
indeed read those that Ross mentioned.  In fact, I was surprised to find that I
couldn't locate anything about outlet spacing over counters since it was clearly
stated the 6' rule only applied to walls that were at least 2 feet wide and 
extended all the way to the floor!  I could have sworn that at some time I read
something about spacing for outlets above cabinets, but I couldn't find it.
That tells me if I was dumb I could build a 20' long unbroken cabinet with a
single outlet in it. 

I also have a copy of Richters (sp) which has been recommended elsewhere here
and is really super.  One thing that book said is that you should mount your
outlets 6-10 inches above the counter.  Now that's interesting since islands
don't have any wall space above them!  It kinda make me think that in some
obscure section of the code there is a statment that says outlets should be at
least X inches over a particular type of surface and if so, that would cover my
island case.

    Ross, I'm asking you since you seem to be the source of this discussion
    and you appear to be so intimate with the NEC (National Electrical
    Code). 

    There's been alot of discussion in this conference lately over the
    "80%" rule about load capacity on residential circuits. You've given me
    the impression, and others seem to be echoing it now, that this
    appplies to all types of residential circuits. 

    My interpretation of your interpretation of the NEC is: 

    All residential circuits shall be designed such that the total load
    potential of all outlets (outlets, lights, etc...) shall not exceed 80%
    of the circuit size. 

    Am I mis-interpreting what you have been saying? Is this really stated
    this way in the NEC or is this a part of "Ross's Electrical Code".
    Could you please quote the section of the NEC that referes to this. 

    Charly 

>< Note 2966.17 by NETMAN::SEGER "this space intentionally left blank" >
 >                          -< the search goes on... >-


>tended all the way to the floor!  I could have sworn that at some time I read
>something about spacing for outlets above cabinets, but I couldn't find it.
>That tells me if I was dumb I could build a 20' long unbroken cabinet with a
>single outlet in it. 

Nope. The code doesn't say this.
It says nothing of walls extending to the floor, it talks to "wall space".
You can't put in one outlet for a 20 ft counter top. This would be in violation
of 210-52 (6 ft rule).

 
It does say 210-52 paragraph #4
"The receptacle outlet required by this section shall be in addition to any
receptacle that is part of any light fixture or appliance, located within 
cabinets or cupboards, or located over 5 1/2 feet (1.68 m) above the floor."

For wall space:
This says you can mount your receptacles anywhere up to 5 1/2 ft.  
Mount them in the kickplate, flush in the top, flush in the front,
flush in the back, surface front, back or top, etc..
The code recognizes your island as "wall space", not counter top.

See 210-52 (b) Counter Tops. for counter top exceptions.

Ross

>< Note 2966.18 by CHART::CBUSKY >
>                               -< The 80% rule? >-
> 
>
>    Am I mis-interpreting what you have been saying? Is this really stated
>    this way in the NEC or is this a part of "Ross's Electrical Code".
>    Could you please quote the section of the NEC that referes to this. 
>
>    Charly 



I don't believe I ever made a blanket statement as to permissible/max loads.
Article 210 in the NEC talks to max and permissible loads. 


210-23 Permissible Loads. "In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit
ampere rating. It shall be acceptable for an individual branch circuit to supply
any load for which it is rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets 
shall supply only the loads specified according to it's size in (a) through
(c) below and summarized in Section 210-24 and Table 210-24."


I'll type just (a) for an example. Most applicable for Home Electricians:

(a) 15- 20 Ampere Branch Circuits. A  15 or 20- ampere branch circuit shall
be permitted to supply lighting units, other utilization equipment, or a 
combination of both. The rating of any one cord- and plug-connected
utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch circuit\ampere r
ating. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place shall not 
exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating where lighting units, 
cord- and plug- connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or 
both, are also supplied."

Fine print note below talks to the small appliance circuits only supplying the
small appliance receptacles.

b-d talk to 30,40,50 and larger branch circuits. When your circuit supplies
only motor loads, the circuit must be rated differently. (210-22)
and there's a chart 210-24 Summary of Branch Circuit Requirements.
Also, there's a chart 210-21(b) Maximum Cord- and Plug-Connected Load to a
Receptacle. Which happens to be 80% for 15,20 and 30 amp branch circuits.
(per receptacle, complete load not to exceed branch circuit rating).

I don't make up code, I hold a Master's license earned by working the trade, 
schooling and passing the State exam. I will offer suggestions on wiring
a circuit, but I've been getting drawn into too many ratholes in this file. 
In the future, if someone wants my thoughts on an electrical question, feel
free to send me mail.

Ross 

Ross,

I think after a couple more notes like this fiasco you will realize why 
doctors at social gatherings do not give medical advice.

And an observation:  I think you are one of those people that others are 
lucky to get to do wiring for them.  But, you tend to read your 
perfectionism into the code, or at least advise it on people who are only 
interested in getting the job over with (their real hobbies might be fly 
tying or poetry).

In any case, don't take this as an assault of any kind.  I think your ideas 
and interpretations are generally right to better-than-right.

Craig

    I did some checking of past notes this weekend and found that it is
    Wayne VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT (See references below...) that has been
    quoting the "80%", SORRY ROSS. But the questions still stand , Wayne,
    what does this rule apply to, "All residential branch circuits"? Is
    this part of the NEC, a local Electrical Code of just in the mind of
    some local inspector. Ross, can you help clarify this as far as the NEC
    goes? 

    I found some reference to an "80% rule in The 35th edition of Wiring
    Simplified by H.P. Richter and W.C. Schwan. But it applies to
    conitinuous loads only (on for 3 hours or more) and an electric water
    heater would be the only residential circuit that would fall under
    this. 

    Charly 

>===============================================================================
>Note 1659.99               GFCIs - How Do They Work?                  99 of 102
>VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT "T.B.S."                          17 lines  3-FEB-1989 11:52
>                                -< more nit's >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    
>     I did some more checking on this and the 20a service to the bathroom..
>       I know,what a nit-picker. I was with the Electrical Inspector for
>    several hours yesterday. I Was enlightened quite a bit by his
>    knowledge. No armchair coach here!
>     Any circuits should not be loaded more than 80%. If someone

>===============================================================================
>Note 2992.5       Putting electrical outlet in existing wall?           5 of 15
>VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT "T.B.S."                          26 lines  9-FEB-1989 11:39
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> ...
> ...
>     Several other questions to ask are,
>    
>        c. what is running on the circuit now? you should load the circuit
>         no more that 80% at any one time.
    

    
    Yes, this 80% stuff has me wondering too.  I'm in the process of
    putting in some new circuits and updating old ones.  From what I've
    been able to determine the following calculation tells me how many
    2 receptacle outlets I could put on a 15 amp line:
    
    				110	volts
    			     x   15	amps
    			       ----
    			       1650	watts
    			     x  .80	80% of maximum load
    			       ----
    			       1320	"usable" watts
    			     \  165	watts per receptacle/light (suggested)
    			       ----
    			          8	receptacles in the circuit
    
    
    Following this logic, I'd have to have just about 1 circuit per
    room with 2 outlets on a wall.  Running a 20 amp line only adds
    2 more outlets.  I've only got 100 amps to go around and only
    figuring in 80% of the capacity on these circuits seems wasteful.
    Practically speaking, I'm not going to be running a table saw in
    the bedroom!  A radio, a few lights, tv, etc., nothing extraordinary.
    

>< Note 2966.22 by CHART::CBUSKY >
>                           -< More on the 80% rule >-



I'll try and state this as simply as possible: In most home multioutlet branch
circuits, no one outlet should be loaded more than 80 %. The entire circuit
should not be loaded more than it's rated for, (I.E. 15 amps for a 15 amp 
circuit). Charly, give me a call if you want more clarification.

Ross

    OK Ross, I'll buy that! By the way, personally I would design with the
    80% rule ANYWAY just so that I'm not running close to the circuit
    capacity and to allow for future changes, but then I also tend to over
    design and over build things. 
    
    BUT... as far as it, the 80% rule, being a CODE RULE in BLACK & WHITE...

    Wayne (VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT), What's the scoop on your statement that
    your electrical inspector said that you have to design so that WHOLE
    CIRCUITS should not be loaded to more than 80%? 
    
    Is this NEC, your local town's rule, OR your local inspector's rule!
    
    Charly

>===============================================================================
>Note 1659.99               GFCIs - How Do They Work?                  99 of 102
>VLNVAX::HEDERSTEDT "T.B.S."                          17 lines  3-FEB-1989 11:52
>                                -< more nit's >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     I did some more checking on this and the 20a service to the bathroom..
>       I know,what a nit-picker. I was with the Electrical Inspector for
>    several hours yesterday. I Was enlightened quite a bit by his
>    knowledge. No armchair coach here!
>     Any circuits should not be loaded more than 80%. If someone

The problem with the NEC plug_ and cord_ 80% rule is: How is the average
Homeowner going to know if he/she is exceeding 80%? What if the Homeowner
likes to iron clothing while watching T.V. (in the livingroom). The iron draws
12.5 amps on a 15 amp branch circuit. That person has exceeded 80% on one 
outlet. There are possible scenarios in which the 80% is exceeded.

Ross

    I also dispute the contention that Romex on the inside of a cabinet
    where it can be struck by articles placed in the cabinet is legal.
    
    I've never seen professionally done wiring inside kitchen cabinets
    that was exposed Romex.
    
    The code is pretty consistent about keeping plastic-sheathed wiring
    out of areas where casual movement of goods in the vicinity would
    subject it to abuse.
    
    Of course as Mark (Pilant) said, the only thing that matters is
    what the local jusrisdiction says.

    
    p.s. Spacing and location of outlets is one of the most ambiguous
    (or perhaps just poorly presented) areas of the code.  Professional
    electricians as well as inspectors never even agree with each other.

    Not at all sure where I got this info originally - maybe a Nashua
    local edict.
    
    re .23   It don't matter what the load is for your island or for
    that matter any circuit in the kitchen (undedicated that is).
    
    "There shall be no more than 3 outlets on any cicuit and the circuit
    shall be wired with at least 12 Ga and be protected by a 20 amp
    breaker".  Again my apologies for not remembering the source.
    
    Nowadays you probably need to add 'GFCI' to the above.

    Don't know what the connection is to wiring installation, but designers
    of electrical appliacances (such as computer systems...) have to
    design to the 80% load rule for UL certification.
    
    At a previous company, we had a system that pulled about 14 amps.
    Because of the 80% rule, this couldn't go on a 15 amp circuit, so
    we put 20 amp plugs on the power cord.  (And then we -- and everyone
    else -- got the 20amp to 15amp plug adapters and plugged them into
    normal 15amp outlets.  But UL was happy.)  (Note -- the rule was
    right and it was wrong to use the 20/15 adapters......)
    
    Also, certain locations (Chicago comes to mind) have even more
    restrictive rules.

 What is the right way to mount the stove 220 volt outlet?  I'd think it would
be a no-no to have any of the wire going to the outlet (that is above the floor
surface) be exposed, resulting in the possibility of mechanical damage, right?

Should it be mounted on the floor, or the wall?  (I've seen both done, don't
know which way is right)

Also, a good point was made a few notes back, you may want to replace the
appliance in the future, meaning you may need to move the outlet a few inches.
The moral here would be to leave a little slack in the stove wire just below
where it comes up through the floor.

    You need to put any exposed romex in conduit.
    
    Wall/Floor?   Most of the large 50A range outlets I've seen surface
    mount against the wall at floor level.  They have cable knockouts both
    in the back and bottom so the cable can come up through the floor OR
    through the wall.  The floor is usually an easier cable run since the
    shoe of the wall framing is probably in the way of the back knockout.
    
    Why would you want to move it?  Range cords aren't that short.  But if
    you're worried anyway just leave some slack in the wall/floor.  You can
    slip on some conduit later should you need to move it.

    >>Why would you want to move it?  Range cords aren't that short.  But if
    >>you're worried anyway just leave some slack in the wall/floor.  You can
    >>slip on some conduit later should you need to move it.
    
       It may need to be moved depending on the new stove.  I think some
    agreement has been reached (unoffical of course) that leaves room the 
    outlet in either the far right or far left corner of the rear.  Placing
    it in the center of the rear will cause you problems when you try to
    replace it.  Look at the back of the range, my guess is that yours has
    very ample space on either corner so the stove can be pushed flush
    against the wall.
    
    	You can put the outlet in the wall (given the correct cubic inch
    box) but as mentioned in .34, it is in most cases placed against the wall 
    on the floor and secured to the wall.  This leaves the supply line
    un-exposed (no conduit is required).
    
    bjm

    RE: .-1
    
    Please check the back of the stove BEFORE you install the outlet.  For
    mine, I only had room in the center.  If you have a drop-in (rests on
    counter or other supports) it might be different.  Most of the slide in
    units (free standing) that I have installed have some space in the
    center.
    
    Dan

 similar to .36, my stove has open space in the center of the back/bottom of 
 the stove, so I'll mount it there.  I'll also bring the wire up inside the wall
 and poke it out of the wall where it can go directly into the outlet, no
 conduit needed  I can do this since I haven;t sheetrocked the other side
 of the wall, where a 2nd bath will be installed (at some future date)

  Thanks for the tips

   Steve

    Hi,
    	I am trying to wire a whirlpool electric oven/range. I use to have
    a seperate cooktop and oven. I am putting the new oven where the old
    cooktop use to be. The problem is that the ovens common(white) wire is
    grounded to the frame of the oven. The 250v/50A outlet I am wiring to
    the wall says it is a non-grounding device, but I believe it is the one 
    I am suppose to use, so what do I do with the ground wire comming out
    of the wall? tie it together with the white?
    		Bob

Usually, there is no separate ground wire - just a neutral and two hots.
How many conductors come in to the outlet?  What "ground wire" is coming
out of the wall?

			Steve

    There is a neutral, two hots, and a bare solid ground, (copper I think).
    This is the wiring(coming out of the wall, originates at the fuse box),
    That use to go to the cooktop that use to be there. There never was an
    outlet, it was wired direct to the cooktop, but the oven I bought is 
    suppose to have an outlet so I am putting one in.
    		Thanks
    		Bob
    

    What gauge is the wire? is it ok for 50 amps, or was the cooktop
    just 30 amps? Did you change the breaker/fuse for this?
    Just something to check/watch for. My dryer has 10/3 + gnd and the
    ground is just connected to the metal plate of the outlet. (It's on
    30 amps)

    The wires and the fuses and all that are correct. The only problem is 
    what to do with the ground. A dryer outlet is suppose to have a ground,
    but a range outlet does not. 
    
    What I would like to due is connect the ground to the neutral because
    that is the way it is done on the range. The neutral is grounded to the 
    frame. Has anyone ever done this or see any reason why I should not do 
    this? 
    		Bob

      One of the electric code experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but
      I'll give a try...
      
      If  I understand you have 4 wires coming out of the wall and three
      wires coming from the new oven.  Right?
      
      The  confusion occurs because, as understand it, certain types of
      appliances are allowed to connect the ground and neutral wires  to
      the  frame  of the appliance.  I have never understood why this is
      allowed, but thats another problem.
      
      In any case, if you have 4 wires in the wall and three in the oven
      do the following:
      
          Do  _NOT_  connect  the  ground  and neutral wires in the wall
          together.

          DO  connect  the  two "hot" wires from the wall to the two hot
          wires from the oven.

          DO connect the GROUND wire from the wall to the oven.
          
      If  you have 4 wires in both the oven and stove, then just connect
      all four wires.  Do _NOT_ connect the the ground and neutral wires
      in  the  wall  together,  even though they're connected inside the
      oven. 
      
      If you have only 3 wires in the wall and the oven has 4 wires, you
      may have a problem.  This situation will work if you just  connect
      the  ground wire and ignore the fact that you don't have a neutral
      wire in the wall.  This  works  because  the  ground  and  neutral
      ultimately connect to the same place -- the ground at your service
      entrance. HOWEVER, even though this works I AM NOT CERTAIN THAT IT
      IS  EITHER  LEGAL  OR SAFE!
               **GET BETTER ADVICE IF YOU HAVE THIS SITUATION**

      
      If  you have 4 wires in the wall and only three from the oven then
      the oven does not need a neutral wire.  Do not connect the neutral
      wire in the wall to anything.  Put a wire nut and/or tape on it so
      that it cannot make electrical contact to anything.  If  possible,
      disconnect the neutral wire at the breaker, too.
      
      
      If  the wire in the wall has 4 wires they will most likely be RED,
      BLACK, WHITE and BARE.  (The bare wire might also be GREEN.)   The
      RED  and BLACK wires are the "hot" wires; the WHITE is neutral and
      the BARE or GREEN wire is ground.
      
      If  the  wire  in  the  wall  has 3 wires they will most likely be
      BLACK, WHITE and BARE.  (Again, the bare wire might be GREEN.) The
      BLACK and WHITE wires are the "hot" wires; there is no neutral and
      the BARE or GREEN wire is ground.

      NOTE:   The  preceding  two  paragraphs  apply  if and only if you
      have 240V at the wall.  (It is also possible that the colors  were
      originally installed wrong.)

    Wouldn't it just be added safety if the "extra" ground wire (the bare
    wire) was attached to the range frame? (like a dryer)

I will have to check my copy of the NEC - the idea of NOT connecting the
neutral sounds incredibly wrong to me.

The last time I hooked up a range, the 8/3 (or was it 6/3?) cable did not
have a separate ground.  The neutral was (as all of them are) connected to
the ground block in the breaker box, and this served as the "ground" connection
as well.

			Steve

    Ok now I am really confused:-)  actually I am not confused but I am
    still unsure. I believe the neutral is suppose to hook up to the the
    terminal that is grounded, but I still am not sure if the bare ground
    should hook up to the frame. 
    
    Isn't hooking up the ground and the neutral together the same as hooking 
    the ground to the frame if the neutral is also hooked up to the frame? 
    		Bob
    
    p.s. Why is there an astrix(*) next to this note, what does that mean?

> Isn't hooking up the ground and the neutral together the same as hooking 
> the ground to the frame if the neutral is also hooked up to the frame?

      It  is true that the neutral and ground wires provide the same (or
      nearly the same) electrical path to ground.  The neutral  wire  is
      grounded   in   the   service  entrance  panel,  but  it  is  kept
      electrically isolated in any/all sub-panels and in most  fixtures.
      The  reason for keeping ground and neutral separate is so that the
      ground wire will not carry any current.  (The  neutral  wire  does
      carry  current.)   And the reason for this has to do with ensuring
      that a short of a hot wire to ground will trip the circuit breaker
      as  quickly  as  possible.   This  is why you are not permitted to
      connect  neutral  and  ground  anywhere  except  in  the   service
      entrance.

      However,  as  I  suggested  in  an earlier reply, the rules change
      inside certain appliances. I think what happens is that appliances
      that use mainly 240V are permitted to use a circuit between one of
      the hot wires and ground for small amounts of current used to  run
      controls or a light in the oven.  I think the main reason for this
      is to allow using cable with 2 wires plus ground instead  of  more
      expensive  cable  with  3 wires plus ground.  Presumably the small
      current drawn through the ground wire is not significant.

      However,  if the neutral and ground were connected together in the
      appliance then what you would have  would  be  two  conductors  in
      parallel -- the ground and the neutral.  Apparently this can cause
      problems which  are  beyond  my  understanding,  because  the  NEC
      forbids conductors in parallel.

      So  until/unless  someone  more knowledgeable corrects me, I stick
      with my previous advice: If the oven has only three connections --
      for  two hot wires and a ground -- do NOT connect the neutral wire
      to the oven.
      
      This  is  really a case of following the implicit instructions for
      wiring the oven.  If it only has three wires to connect, or  three
      terminals to connect to, then you should only connect three wires!
      If it needs four wires it would have four leads or four terminals.

    Charlie is on the right track.

    	The NEC states in Art. 250-60,

    	"Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers:  Frames of electric ranges,
    wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and
    outlet or junction boxes which are part of the circuit for these
    appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by section 250-57
    or 250-59; or, except for mobile homes and recreational vehicles, shall
    be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all of
    the conditions indicated in (a) through (d) below are met.

    	(a) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single phase, 3-wire; or
    208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye connected system.

    	(b) The grounded conductor is not smaller than #10 copper or #8
    aluminum.

    	(c) The grounded conductor is insulated; or the grounded conductor
    is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service entrance cable and the
    branch circuit originates at the service equipment.

    	(d) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the
    equipment are bonded to the equipment.


    	This basically says that if you have an insulated grounded
    conductor (neutral), then you can use it to as both the grounding
    conductor (ground) and the neutral. You are also permitted to use the
    uninsulated grounded conductor in a Type SE cable, as long as the
    circuit originates form the service equipment (it cannot be fed from a
    subpanel).

    	The important thing to remember is you must bond the neutral IN THE
    RANGE OR DRYER to the case, enclosure, equipment. You are not tying the
    ground and neutral of the house/system together. This would be a
    violation. You are only bonding the neutral to the case of the
    range/dryer. One would think that there is a possibility for a
    potential voltage from one appliance to another, but since the NEC
    states that the grounded conductor must be at least #10 copper, the
    voltage drop would be minimal. 

    	The intent of the code here was because ranges/dryers have very
    little neutral draw. They only feed controls, and lights. It has also
    been in practice for many years with a good safety record. This was
    reevaluated for the 1984 NEC and the committee verified the good safety
    record.

    	If your circuit originates from a subpanel, then you must use an
    insulated grounded conductor. The uninsulated grounded conductor in SE
    cable SHALL NOT be used in this example.

    	So back to your question, if you have an insulated neutral, you may
    use that on the neutral terminal of the receptacle. You must bond the
    neutral to the case of the appliance. There should be some kind of
    bonding strap there. You may also use the uninsulated neutral of SE
    cable if the circuit comes from the service (not from a subpanel).

    	I hope this answers your question.

    			CB

    I want to tap off of some new wiring to my kitchen and setup
    flood lights for my back yard.  
    The heavy hitters in the kitchen are the Stove (electric), microwave, 
    Frig, Garbage disposal and dishwasher.
    
    Does anyone have any rough figures on the current draws on these
    (typical) loads and which would be safest to tap?  
    
    I think most are on 15 Amp lines but there is one 20 Amp which
    also goes to the kitchen.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

    The answer is probably "none of the above", since the NEC is quite
    strict about what can connect to the "small appliance" circuits in
    the kitchen (no lighting, and the only "dedicated" appliance outlet
    is for a wall clock).  This also applies to "dedicated" appliance
    circuits such as for the refrigerator, stove, disposer and d/w.
    
    To be compliant with the Code you'll probably have to run a new
    circuit or tap off some branch circuit other than the ones in the
    kitchen.
    
    Yes, I know this isn't the answer to your question.  But whether
    or not you can "mechanically" do this shouldn't be your only
    concern.

     Also, be careful of cooking stove circuit. I believe this is 220V.
    
    Barry

    You should probably tap of the kitchen lighting circuit and leave
    the small appliance and specialty circuits alone.  I doubt that
    an extra 100-200 watts would be significant but flip the breaker
    that controls the lights in the kitchen and count how many lights
    and outlets go off through out the house.  The lighting circuit
    for the kitchen most likely runs lights and outlets in other parts
    of the house.  Count up how many things are effected by the breaker
    and post it here and I am sure someone will let you know if it
    would significantly impact the load on the lighting circuit.

    -JFK-

    I am buying a Jenn-Aire electric stove w/convection oven.  It's going
    in the same slot as the old electric (no gas in my house).  We are
    going to install a microwave oven above the new stove.
    
    Question: Since I don't have the time to do it myself, I am having the
    dealer (Hudson Appliance Center) arrange the installation.  Does anyone
    have any recent experience that could give me a ball-park idea of what
    the installation should cost?  I don't want to get taken.
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    Tom

Well, if you're going to have a 220 service run to it and ductwork with
related carpentry to route the duct outside, I'd say it's going to be
somewhere between  expensive and damn expensive.  But a lot depends on
information we don't have, like what's available for space under the
kitchen to run the duct? How far will the duct run? How far will the
220 service run? Do you have enough guts in your electric panel to
provide a new service, or are you going to have to upgrade? These
questions and lots more need to be considered before you can even begin
to make a reasonable decision.

Since you're busy, and I assume you'll want to eat in some reasonable
period after the stove is delivered, I'd say don't worry about "best
deal" just pay it and get on with your life.

                                           >>>==>PStJTT

I assume you have the 220 service present already.  So, all you need to do is
run the ductwork for the stove.  When I installed mine, I needed to run the 
duct about 6 feet, between the floor joists.  This was a relatively simple task.
It took myself and a friend about 4 hours.  I am NOT very handy by the way.
This included repositioning the blower after I discovered the directions were 
incorrect.

I replaced my cheapo hood with a GE over the stove microwave by myself in about
1.5 hours (not including emptying the cabinet overhead).  I did not require any
modifications to the cabinetry, and used the existing 110 service from the hood.
I did have to modify the microwave to blow into the kitchen, since there is no 
ductwork to the outside.

So, for an easy job, figure about 5 hours+/-, at about $40/hour...$200?

    I don't know what happened with the base noter, but I trying to do
    the same thing.  I have about 4 or 5 outlets in the kitchen cupboard
    area, with little or no load today, most are on 20 amp circuits.
    The circuit I would like to tap into is the one that has the (2) 
    outside lights on it, which are both probable 75 watts each.  Also
    on this circuit are 4 outlets, none of which are being used.  I would
    like to add (2) of the 300 Watt halogen spotlites to these, as it would
    be easily accessed through the outside lights.   I believe the load for 
    a 15 amp circuit is 1600 watts, I am within that load. Is my thinking 
    sound ???
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

    Re .4:
    
    Your question is a little unclear - are you trying to tap into
    an EXISTING small appliance (20A) circuit in your kitchen, or
    into a different circuit?  The former is against code, the
    latter is probably OK.  Bear in mind there ARE limits to the
    maximum lighting load you can permanently attach to a circuit which
    also has receptacles (outlets); only 50% of the branch circuit rating
    may be used for that lighting load.  For a 15A circuit, that's
    7.5A x 120V = 900 watts TOTAL lighting load (your inspector may
    use 125V for determining wattage).
    
    In cases where there are no receptacles on that branch circuit,
    the maximum permanently attached load is limited to 80% of the
    branch circuit rating, or
    
    	0.8 x 15A x 120V = 1440 watts  (same footnote about 125V
    	0.8 x 20A x 120V = 1920 watts   calculation above)
    
    Assuming you're NOT tapping into a small appliance circuit,
    and that the existing permanently-connected lighting load is
    150W, adding two 300W spotlights would be within code.
    

    After rereading my note (.4) i see that I was quite unclear.  I know
    you should not mess with the small appliance circuits.  I wanted to
    tap into a circuit which has 3 lites (75 watts each) and 4 outlets,
    none of which are in the kitchen, they are in the dining and living
    room.  Your info is quite helpful, I believe I should be ok to tap
    into this circuit....
    
    
    Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated...
    
    Steve

    RE: .4
    
    I haven't had the to time to wire up the floods yet, since I'm in the
    middle of 4 other projects right now and now have a second daughter
    1 week old.
    
    RE: .1-.3
    
    Thanks for all the kitchen electric code info.  I will not mess with 
    the kitchen appliance wiring.  When I get around to it I will either
    tap off the kitchen overhead lighting circuit or a light circuit in the
    basement, which ever is the less loaded and within spec.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul     

    I'm trying to build a light fixture for the kitchen out of leftover
    wood from my back porch project.  I bought two four footer shop lights
    and I'm going to enclose them behind a diffuser and some lattice work.
    Anyway, the lights say that they should not be used for flush mounting,
    but only for chain mounting.  I assume this is because of the ballast.
    What I propose to do is mount them with about an inch of breathing
    space between the balast and the wallboard ceiling.  Is that good
    enough?  If I wanted to put some insulation in between what should I
    use?  I have some leftover styrofoam sheets.  What kind of heat can
    styrofoam handle?  My wife wants lots of light, but from the
    basenoter's comments, are 4 40 watters going to be too much, even
    behind a diffuser?  
    
    						- Vick

    Oh, and do I need to ventillate this thing?  I was planning just to
    have it completely enclosed.
    					- Vick

I can't help you with the safety issue, but I checked out the complaint
about too much light (nit -- it wasn't the base note).  We have a kitchen
fixture that uses four 40-watt tubes, and the light is adequate -- not
overly bright -- for most of the kitchen.  Our kitchen is fairly long and
narrow -- probably about 17' X 9' off the top of my head, and it's all done
in light colors.  If we did it again, we'd probably use two fixtures
with a total of 6 or 8 40-watters.  I can't understand how two 40's would
be too bright.  Unless you've got a tiny kitchen or very low ceilings,
4 40's won't blind you.

    I've decided to go with 6 40 watters in three fixtures inside the
    enclosure.  I'm going to alternate directions so that no two adjacent
    fixtures have their ballasts next to each other.  I'm going to leave
    about an inch between each fixture and the ceiling.  No insulation,
    because apparently the idea is to let the ballast receive circulation.
    The enclosure is finished and looks great.  I'll tell you how it turns
    out and whether or not the house catches fire.
    
    					- Vick

	    The fixtures have already been installed, but it's good 
	you did not put insulation above the fixtures.  Shop lights use
	rather cheapo ballasts and all ballasts generate heat.  Shop
	light versions probably get hotter than most, which is why the
	instructions dictate no surface mounting.
	    Insulation will trap the heat.  At the very least, the 
	ballasts may leak and what they leak will be a black tar-like
	substance.  I don't think you would want to clean any of this
	stuff, even though they're now 'non' PCB (a carcinagen).
	    And of course, worst case will be an electrical fire.  You
	might want to try touching a ballast after the lights have been
	on for an hour or so.  If it's too hot to touch, it might not
	be safe.  I wouldn't be surprised if all three ballasts operate
	at different temperatures.
	    With three fixtures, I'd have gone with two switches.  You
	wont always want to have so much light and it would be nice to
	just turn on one fixture.  And remember, the starting current 
	of a flourescent equals about 20 minutes of running time.

					Tim

re .19:

>	just turn on one fixture.  And remember, the starting current 
>	of a flourescent equals about 20 minutes of running time.

The starting current of a fluorescent is higher than normal "on" current,
but no way is it equal to "20 minutes of running time".  This is impossible
without it drawing hundreds of amps and popping breakers right and left,
or burning your house down.

-Mike

    A recent set of shop lights I installed have metal tabs on the back
    which make it impossible to install flush to the ceiling; there will
    always be some space between the light and the mounting surface.
    
    Eric

Re: .19, .20

>	just turn on one fixture.  And remember, the starting current 
>	of a flourescent equals about 20 minutes of running time.

A minor change to this, and you're closer to correct.  If you're talking
about bulb lifetime, every time you turn on a flourescent light you take
away some bulb lifetime.

About ten years ago when my dad was still a manager at Hughes Aircraft, they
did a study on the economic tradeoffs of turning off a flourescent vs.
leaving it running.  They took into account electric costs, bulb costs, and
labor costs to replace the bulbs.  I was surprised at the result: you should
turn off the light if it's going to be off for more than two minutes.

About twenty years ago my school district did the same study, and came up
with a time of twenty minutes.

    That's quite a difference for Hughes, because they did that study in
    1970 (+/-) also and determined that they should just leave the lights
    on all night and replace them every six months.
    
    ed

Hi all,
Here's a problem maybe somebody out there can help with.
My oven, a 13-yr old Kenmore, has some erosion just under
the heating coil on the floor of the oven. At each curve
of the coil (it is shaped in a W shape on the oven floor),
at the front, it seems some holes are starting in the steel.

My question is, is this a fire hazard and can it be repaired?
The oven works ok, but I dont want to start a fire. I dont
see how the steel could be replaced, it would have to be
'patched' if anything.  Does anyone have any experience with
fixing this type of problem? Thank you in advance!    -NB

    I am replacing an old "drop-in" stove with a new one.  This is the
    combination oven and stove top.
    
    Problem:  Out of the back of the new stove comes 4 wires (red, black,
    white , and bare).  Out of the wall comes 3 wires (red, black, and
    bare!).
    
    The old stove is gone so I cannot verify exactly how it was hooked up.
    
    How can I hook this up?  Running new wire is EXTREMELY difficult.
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Brad
    
    And I thought the cutting of the countertop would be the hardest part.

    Suggest you start by identifying the wires from the wall. Get a
    multitester, or electrical tester, and test the wiring. Odds are that
    across the red and bare you will show 115v. Probably the same across
    the black and bare. Which -I think- means you have a 230vcircuit. 
    
    Red, black, white, and bare are what I would expect from the stove if
    the stove were looking for a connection to a 230v line. And, that is
    the combination I would have liked to see coming from the wall. Red is
    hot, black is hot, white is neutral (ground), and bare is ground. The
    question is - why are you missing a -white- from the wall?
    
    If your testing does not show that you have a 230v line in the wall, I
    would then check to see what the new stove expects. Should be on the
    box, installation instructions, etc.
    
    I would almost guess that someone shortcut the wiring of a 230 v line
    by using the bare as the neutral. Though they both ultimately end up at
    'ground' , it is clearly an unsafe way to do it. 
    
    BTW, take none of this as gospel. Just MHO. 

    I thought that it was pretty much standard to have, for 230 volt house
    wiring three wires: Bare is neutral/ground,Blk and Red the two "hot"
    leads.
    
    If true..check with the multimeter...then I would use a three pin
    connector for stoves (30 Amp) with the female on the wall, and the male
    connected to the stove. The male end is known in the electrical stores
    as a "pigtail".
    
    What does the stoves installation manual say?
    
    Marc H.

re .1:

Allowing the use of a 3 wire circuit for stoves and dryers where a 4 wire
circuit is normally called for (as long as it's not fed from a subpanel,
wire size must bla bla bla...) is an exception of the wiring code.  It's
OK, at least legally.

re .0:

Read the installation manual to confirm, but it should be red-red, black-black
and white+bare-bare.

-Mike

    The reason for the difference is that modern installations will
    separate out ground and neutral ... there are safety reasons to do
    so in that no current should flow through a safety ground except under
    fault conditions.
    
    Black and red are the two hot wires, across which there is shouuld be
    220-240V.  White is neutral.  Bare copper is ground.
    
    So you have two alternatives ...
    
    1.  replace the cable back to the fuse box with 3+ground cable
    2.  connect white and bare together with the incoming bare conductor.
    
    If I were in your position, I'd do option 1 because I am fussy about
    electrical safety with regard to safety grounding (If you are going to
    use grounds, use 'em properly!)  However, I understand that NEC in
    the USA permits the use of the grounding conductor this way so for
    ease and cost reasons, option 2 is expedient.
    
    In Canada, this use would not be permitted.  The grounded conductor
    (neutral) and the grounding conductor (safety ground) are separate.
    No power currents are allowed to flow in a grounding conductor; it
    is only permitted to carry currents under fault conditions.
    Neutral is grounded only at the local distribution transformer.  It
    is not allowed to be connected to grounded again at a consumer service
    panel as under NEC, thus avoiding ground currents and ground loops.  
    While Canadian and US codes are remarkably similar they are significantly 
    different on the rules of grounding.
    
    Stuart

    I will check my manuals again at home.  The only "instructions" it
    seemed to have was "have a licensed electrician install".  Well, we all
    know that would be too expensive and not nearly as much fun.
    
    As far as connecting bare+white to bare, note 1992.0 seems to confirm
    that this might be ok.  Again, I will look for more instructions but I
    don't think I have any.
    
    By the way, this is a Frigidaire, not a Ronco as you might have
    guessed.
    
    Brad

Most home AC, Dryers and Stoves use two wire phase to phase or two legs of 110 
volts, which is Black and Red and Bare safety groung.  The only place a bare 
safety wire and a white neutral should be bonded is at the panel!

I vote for Black to Black, Red to Red and bare to bare and to the box ( through
and through grounding).

Mike

    re .5 - to the comment that bonding white plus bare to bare 'will
    work'.
    It will work inasmuch as the stove will operate, and probably operate
    properly. The issue is whether it is safe. For 99.99...% of the time,
    it will not be an issue. But, should someone, someplace in your home
    touch a safety grounded part of your electrical system - this may be as
    simple as touching a screw on a wall switch, and that person happens to
    be grounded - as simple as standing on the ground in the basement
    barefoot, or on a damp bathmat while plugging in a hair dryer, and the
    oven happens to be in use, there is a risk of current flow through the
    person. Persons are not made to have current flow through them. 

    re .7
    
    No, this will not happen ...   Doing this to the stove will NOT
    lift the ground potential of anything connected to the grounding 
    conductor anywhere else except on the same circuit as the stove,
    and since the stove is on its own circuit this is a non-issue and
    why it is an allowed exception.
    
    What can happen is that because the grounding conductor has a current
    flowing through it, it will have a slightly higher potential than
    ground depending on the resistance of the conductor and its
    connections.  Thus if you took a meter and measured AC volts between
    the stove frame and true ground (for example a water pipe), you will
    measure a small voltage.  This should not normally be enough to cause
    a true safety problem ... provided everything is well connected.
    
    Alternative 3 that I forgot to mention (and I don't know if it actually
    would meet NEC) would be to obtain a length of ground bonding wire
    (Bare copper or Green insulated) long enough to go from the stove to
    a ground bond on a nearby COPPER pipe.  Then connect the stove as
    follows ...
    
    Red > Red
    Black > Black
    White > Copper from fuse panel
    Bare  > New ground bond wire.
    
    This should be totally safe, even if not elegant!
    
    Stuart

    Some stoves need the neutral to furnish 120 volts. This is used for the
    lights and sometimes the timer motors. On dryers, the 120 is also
    sometimes used for the timer.
    
    If you don't hook the neutral and bare wire together at the stove, you
    might have a stove that will not work.
    
    Check the owners manual and if you still can't get an answer, check the
    latest electrical code. Some stores like SPAGS or somerville lumber
    carry reprints of the code. You should have the info, even if you
    pay someone to wire it up.
    
    Also, check the wiring diagram of the stove to see of the ground(bare)
    and the neutral are connected together in the stove, or if 120 volts
    is used as I said.
    
    Marc H.

    Thank you all for all of the suggestions.  I am still confused on what
    exactly is the right or OK thing to do.  One problem I guess is that
    this stove came with no schematic or wiring instructions.  I don't
    understand why.
    
    Anyway, I have it hooked up r-r, bl-bl, and wht+bare-bare.  It works
    fine and I hope it is safe.  Again, thanks for you help.  I will still
    be following this note in case someone comes up with a definitive
    answer.
    
    Brad

    re .10
    
    No.  Most all 220V appliances have 110V components (dryer motor, stove
    lights, clock. timer, etc).   These are connected to "white" (neutral)
    within the appliance.  White is connected to ground at a single point
    near the electrical entrance if the appliance is to be used on a  3
    wire circuit.  On a 4 wire circuit, the neutral is separate and goes
    out the appliance cord on its own conductor.
    
    Most appliances of this nature have a terminal block with four
    customer-accessable lugs  (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) and the cord/and
    or direct wiring is in fact sold separately to take 3/4 wire circuits
    into account (if you are using a plug, the prongs have a different
    configuration for each type).
    
    Both are perfectly legal and perfectly safe, for reasons stated
    earlier, depsite the amazing amount of misinformation in this note.
    

110V is also used for stove burners on their low settings.  I'd expect a
stovetop with the white capped off to not work correctly at low heat settings.

re .4:

>    Neutral is grounded only at the local distribution transformer.  It
>    is not allowed to be connected to grounded again at a consumer service
>    panel as under NEC, thus avoiding ground currents and ground loops.  

So do homes in Canada all have 4 wires from the pole to the house?
I would think this would be unsafe, since there's more chance to have a broken
ground.

-Mike

re .13:

>110V is also used for stove burners on their low settings.  I'd expect a
>stovetop with the white capped off to not work correctly at low heat settings.

Having replaced a burner control and taken apart the old one, I doubt this.
It's basically a rheostat.

re .14:

>Having replaced a burner control and taken apart the old one, I doubt this.
>It's basically a rheostat.

I repaired an electric stove that had pushbutton burner controls.  It had
about 6 settings and each burner had two different elements.  Power
was controlled by applying 220V, 110V or 0 to the elements.

There are probably hundreds of electric stove designs in use.

I'm really suprised they'd use rheostats in the power levels of stoves.

-Mike

    Re: .12
    
    Jim, Thanks! That what I was trying to say.
    
    Marc H.

Electric stoves these days have continuously variable controls.

If you're basing your statement about 110 volts at low temperatures
on a stove with push-button controls, I claim that most cars have
slant 6 engines -- my brother had a car with a push-button transmission,
and *that* had a slant 6.

OK, so some stoves don't need the white while some do.  So if you don't
have the wiring diagram it's a guess if it's going to work correctly or not.

-Mike

    While my wife and I were getting dinner ready the other night we heard 
    this loud pop (like a firecracker) come from the stove (which was on at 
    the time). As it turned out the breaker ended up going off and when I 
    turned it back on everything works however the oven temperature control 
    light (which normally comes on only after the oven selector switch is 
    turned to BAKE for example) refuses to go out even when the oven is 
    turned off. Now after further testing with a neighbor we see that if
    the oven is set to BAKE the light stays on until the oven reaches the
    temperature selected, then it goes out - until you turn up the
    temperature which will start the cycle all over again. Then if the oven 
    is turned off the light goes out and stays out - until it cools down,
    then it comes back on. I should note that this is a standard GE 30 inch
    self-cleaning model that is approx. 9 yrs. old. If this is the 
    tempurature control switch or thermostat does anyone have any idea 
    of how difficult this would be to fix for a "doityourselfer" like
    myself? Or what is a reasonable rate to have someone come and repair it
    in the Milford NH. area? I called one place and he wants 32.50 to come 
    out and that includes the first 15 minutes of labor, then its 32.50 per 
    hr. after that.
    
    Barry 
    

    re safety of white and bare -> bare
    
    This is a perfectly safe and legal configuration under the NEC
    exception.  The only time this configuration becomes unsafe is if
    the supply grounding connection (bare) breaks, at which point the
    stove frame becomes potentially hot depending on what on the stove is
    turned on.
    
    Now, the chances of this happening are remote to put it mildly.  But
    because of this possibility, new wiring must separate Neutral and
    Ground according to NEC.  Canadian Code does not permit this
    exception.
    
    re .13
    
    Canadian homes are supplied with 3 conductors L1 - N - L2  
    Ground comes via "ground"   There is a whopping groundstake driven
    at each local distribution transformer, and then each house
    picks up its ground via an groundstake or via copper water supply
    pipe.
    
    This is perfectly safe since there are no supply currents flowing
    in the ground.  It is under most circumstances a lower resistance
    path to ground than you would be unless you grabbed a water pipe
    with salty wet hands!  The idea being you want the majority of fault
    currents flowing to the wired ground rather than you, given the option!
    
    Stuart
    
    

I mis-read the basenote, so I thought I better correct this for the future.
The original note is copied below.  I assumed the basenoter had the same
situation that I had with the correct four wire hook up at the wall and only
three wires at the stove.  Re-reading the base note, I realized that it is the
opposite so my reply doesn't make sense.

   One other option would be to buy a cooktop that only needed the three wires. 
I know this isn't an option for the originator but my cooktop (GE RU38C) only 
requires the ground plus two phases, so if one discovers this situation prior 
to installation and it isn't feasible to rewire, one could return the cooktop
and get a model that doesn't require the neutral.

                                                         David


================================================================================
Note 4664.9                   Wiring for new stove                       9 of 18
VSSCAD::DALRYMPLE                                     9 lines  17-JUN-1992 21:33
                           -< Just cap the neutral >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My cooktop is the same and the Mass licensed electrician after
    reading the instructions that came with the cooktop put a wire nut 
    on the white neutral wire (as in don't connect to anything and
    protect it from connecting to anything.)  Several (most?) modern cooktops
    don't require the neutral.  Some may, so I believe 3 wire + ground
    needs to be run from the panel to the junction box.
    
                                              David
    

    The info by S_Brook is quite correct.  I personally would recommend
    you replace the feed wiring with 4-conductor (about .74 cents a foot)
    to be legal.  The issue of neutral and ground amount to a "nit", and
    probably would not give you a problem in a hundred years.
    
    If you ever add on to your home, most communities in Ma have inspectors
    which will require you to upgrade to 4-wire even if you have a three
    wire stove.  
    
    Closing advise is it ususally is easier to do it right in the first
    place, than to string things out.
    
    Ron

>>    If you ever add on to your home, most communities in Ma have inspectors
>>    which will require you to upgrade to 4-wire even if you have a three
>>    wire stove.  

Small rat hole:

What?  Last I heard an inspector could not require upgrades of existing wiring
unless it was being worked on.  So if I pull a permit for an addition but my
dryer is wired wrong he can not tell me to fix it - nor refuse to sign off if
the work that I pulled the permit for is to code.

Now if you were to move the stove in the modifications, then sure...

Brian

    What could be wrong with a stove that seems to maintain a temperature
    about 150 degrees cooler than the temperature dial?
    
    This is a late-50's vintage GE stove with nothing fancy. 4 burners on
    top (no complaints there), and fused by 2 45-amp cartridge-type fuses.
    
    There is some sort of thermocouple visible in the stove compartment...
    could that or other components cause the problem?

    A badly printed dial?
    
    Edd

The Reader's Digest yellow book mentions "calibrating" a stove control, as I
recall (I don't recall details, though).  If your offset is consistent, then
you need to do this.  It basically lines up the correct number on the dial
with the pointer.

If it's an electric oven, it's not a thermocouple.  Most likely it's a
thermostat.  If I were you, I'd call GE's 800 number and get some free
expert advice.

    The dial may be adjustable. Pull it off and see if the inner sleeve
    (the part the goes over the shaft) can be turned relative to the
    outer dial.  Rotate as appropriate until the numbers correspond
    to reality.  Assuming the knob design lets you do this....
    

    
    We have a Sears self-cleaning oven with no user guide.
    
    This week I tried to use the selfcleaning feature for the first time,
    in accordance with the instructions printed on the inside of the door:
    
        set timer for desired time
    	set temp to "clean"
    	lock oven door
    	set mode selctor to "clean"
    
    Nothing seems to happen - neither the "locked" or "oven"
    indicators lights up and the oven stays cold.
    
    Anyone have any expereince of this?  Suggest a solvent for
    carbonised apple pie?   And can anyone explain why
    appliances all self-destruct within a few months of each
    other 8-(
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    Stupid question, but is the 'timer' times set at the right time
    of day (ie. does the 'start' time equal the regular stove clock
    time ??).  The start timer must be the same time as the stove clock
    for the operation to start, and make sure the 'locking' feature is
    indeed engaged, as it might not start if it isn't completely latched.
    
    
    SP

    
    Not a stupid question at all.  I assumed that the instructions referred
    to the minute timer - the annoying buzzer thing.  Didn't think that it
    might be linked to the the cooking timers.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
    

    Correct, the buzzer timer is like a stop watch.  You need to set
    the other 'timers' one to start and one to stop, just make sure 
    that the start timer equals the correct time of day.  Need not
    do a thing with the buzzer timer.....
    
    SP

    
    re -1
    
    Tried the cooking timer - it works ok on the bake setting, but not on
    "clean".  However, when I set the temp controller to "clean" the lock
    and oven lights flicker briefly.  I think one of the contacts in
    that switch is the problem.  Time to get the toolkit....
    
    Thanks for the input.
    
    Colin
    
    
     

My kitchen currently has one overhead light. I want to replace it with six
recessed downlights while still re-using the existing feed to the overhead
light. I realize this will require some amount of cutting sheetrock, adding 
junction boxes, and drilling through floor joists. What's the cleanest and
easiest way to wire up such a job?

Here's an attempt at an illustration of the situation as you look up at my
kitchen ceiling. Note the direction of floor joists. The "0"s are where I'd
like to put new recessed lights. (I want all six lights switched with the
existing switch.

0     |             |         0 
      |             |
      |             |
      |             |joist
      |             |
      |             |
0     |             |         0
      |             |
      |       x existing overhead light
      |       /     |
      |      /      |
      |     /       |
0     |    /   to wall switch 0
      |             |


Should I cut away a section of sheetrock perpendicular to the joists and feed
the supply wire through new holes drilled in the joists, and then fish a wire
along the each joist, tying in the lights as I go?

Brian

Run the wire between the floor joists and the sheetrock - assuming they used
strapping on your ceiling (most do).  This avoids the drilling.

You have to determine if anything else is being fed from that box.  It is not
un-common (ie very common in new construction) to have the feed for the light
come into the existing light, run a  "switch leg" over to the switch and then
continue the power to another box.  This means at least three wires in the box
in the ceiling.  If this is the case you need to figure out were you can
re-route the power.

If you are using a good brand of recessed lighting (like lightoleer, progress)
you can use the attached box (I think the equiv sq inch size of a 4/4) to make
these splices.

There are too many possible ways to wire this to draw them all out before
knowing where the feed for the current light comes from and if there are any
other wires in the existing overhead light.


bjm

    
    	Re: .18
    
    	If the sheetrock is hung below the joists by strapping, is it legal
    to run wiring between the sheetrock and the joists?  I thought there
    were code requirements about how far up into the joists the passage hole
    should be so that the wires are out of the way in case something is
    being hung into the sheetrock.  Running the wires between the sheetrock
    and the joists would mean that the wires are, effectivly, laying on top
    of the sheetrock and are liable to be "poked" my something.
    
    	Re: .17
    
    	In your diagram, were you drawing the joists just to show the
    direction, or is it a case where there is exactly one joist between the
    existing light and where the new lights will be going?  If there is
    only one joist to each side, you might be able to drill a hole in the
    joists from the existing ceiling hole if you use a long-enough bit.
    (I've seen 16 inch long wood boring bits that might work in this case.)
    
    	Hopefully, as per the comments in .18, when you open up the box
    there will be just a single set of wires coming into it.  Have you
    looked in the box yet?
    
    							-craig

RE. last two

The existing overhead light fixture is fed by a single 14/2 wire. I'm not
exactly sure what happens upstream of that wire (there are actually 3 switches
to operate the same light), but I'm pretty sure it's the end of the run.

I'm no sheetrock expert, so I'm not sure what you mean by "strapping". Is this
the thin 2" wide lumber that runs perpendicular to the joists (and the
wallboard is nailed/screwed into it? Kind of like furring strips?  I believe
the ceiling may have such stuff. But I don't know how to use it to solve my
wiring problem. Can you add details?

Thanks for the info--

Brian

    
    	Re: .20
    
    	Good, having a single 14/2 gives you a lot more options.  The one
    thing I'd want to know before starting this is whether the existing wire
    going to the current light can reach any of the new lights.  The wire
    might be stapled onto the joists which would make moving the end any
    substantial distance difficult, but if they didn't do this, can the
    wire reach any new light?  (In your diagram, my guess is that the new
    light in the bottom left would be the closest.)  If so, then you can get
    rid of needing a junction box where the current light is and patch the
    ceiling to get rid of any evidence of the old light.  Beyond that
    question, how you do the rest of the wiring is rather optional. 
    
    	Personally, I don't like connecting 4 sets of wires at one place,
    so I'd run the wires box -> box -> box etc. so that I'd get 3 sets of
    wires per box (except for the last box) instead of having 4 anywhere.
    (Don't forget to count the wires that go to the light as a set.  One
    line in, one line out and one line to the light = 3 sets being
    connected even though only 2 sets come out of the box.)  For example,
    lets say that the existing wire does reach the light in the bottom left
    of your diagram.  I'd go box-to-box up that row, over to the upper right
    and then go down that row.  And if I had to keep the existing junction
    box, I'd have one wire going from that box to each side, perhaps the
    bottom line of the side, and then go up that side.  The worst case would
    then be connecting 3 14/2 sets at the existing junction box which isn't
    bad at all.
    
    							-craig
                                                 

>>The existing overhead light fixture is fed by a single 14/2 wire. I'm not
>>exactly sure what happens upstream of that wire (there are actually 3 switches
>>to operate the same light), but I'm pretty sure it's the end of the run.

Your life is made eaiser if there is only one wire (black,white and ground) 
coming into the overhead light.  You can use this to come into the nearest
recessed light and then run the chain the rest of the lights from there. 
Something like:

           Current                         New
     o               o                     o               o          
                                           |               |          
                                           |               |          
     o               o                     o               o          
            x<- existing light             |               |
            |                              |               | 
     o      |        o                     o---------------o          
------------|<-single wire feed       -----| <-single wire feed 
               to switch                       to switch

The first light has three wires - one coming in from the switch and two going
out to feed other lights.

>>I'm no sheetrock expert, so I'm not sure what you mean by "strapping". Is this
>>the thin 2" wide lumber that runs perpendicular to the joists (and the

Yes thats the stuff.

>>the ceiling may have such stuff. But I don't know how to use it to solve my
>>wiring problem. Can you add details?

The only thing it is going to help you with is that you won't have to drill
through the floor joists to get the wire between them.

Re: .19:
	Yes it is legal.  It is recommended that the wires not be placed right
next to the strapping in case the sheetrockers miss with a wire.  For the short
distances we are talking in this case, yes it will be resting on the top of the
sheetrock.  In new construction, the wires are fastened to each floor joist
with staples.

bjm

    
    Re .17:
    
    I did exactly the  same project in my kitchen. Two suggestions that might
    make your life much easier:
    
    1) Don't get rid of the center fixture. Instead, replace it with
       a low-wattage decorative fixture. My original fixture was a 3-bulb,
       180-watt frosted globe. I removed that, cut a small access hole next
       to the junction box to fish wires, and installed a smaller fixture
       with polished brass, clear glass and a few low-watt ornamental bulbs.
       With proper planning, the new fixture will cover the hole you cut.
    
    2) Use recessed lighting that's designed for rework. In this regard,
       I cannot speak too highly of the Edison recessed light fixtures.
       They are small (use the 50-w R20 bulbs), cheap, plain but neat,
       and have given me no trouble in six years. After finding a suitable
       location for a fixture (eg, no joist immediately overhead), you cut
       a hole from a template included, fish wires through hole, wire them
       into the junction box that comes attached to the fixture, shoe-horn
       the entire assembly back up into the hole, snap home a few clips,
       and clip on a finishing bezel.
    
    This approach allowed me to re-light my entire kitchen without any
    ceiling repair at all (except for a new coat of paint). If you're
    working with a textured ceiling, it's worth thinking about.
    
    BTW, For ceilings, wires are commonly fished through the gap created by
    furring strips (aka strapping). In fact, this is OK even for new
    construction, according to my electrical inspector; the minimum
    spacing rule is applied to wall wiring.
    

    Not to throw a wet blanket on this, but is it not quite possible that
    adding all these extra lights would put too many outlets on the same
    circuit according to code ?  (Plug outlets and lights all being
    "outlets")
    
    Stuart

Well, I lucked out with the ceiling light wiring project. I cut a small
peephole where the bottom left (in my drawing) light would go, and to my
delight discovered that there already was wiring running through holes across
the studs. So I didn't have to cut any sheetrock except for the 6" holes for
the lights.

Fitting the fixtures (Lightolier compact flourescent frame-in) was a royal
pain, however. Not only was there existing wiring in the ceiling, I discovered
copious amounts of plumbing, usually placed directly where I had planned to put
a recessed light. Probably would have been easier if I had used the Lightolier
fixture designed for remodeling, but these didn't seem to be as secure once
installed and the store didn't have them in stock (this project is on the fast
track!).

BTW, this was my first experience with compact flourescent downlighting. I'm
really pleased with the result. I'm using two 13w quad tubes in each fixture,
with six lights in a 14x14 area. Very well lit (just the way we like it), no
heat generation, and I'm using about a much juice as one 150W flood, my other
option. Only gripe is the flicker when you turn on the lights.


Brian

   Is it OK according to Mass. electrical code to connect the range hood to 
  the same outlet as the electric stove?

   - Bob

    RE: .5
    Isn't the range 120V and the stove 220V?
    Also, the range usually uses 30 Amp lines...number 10 wire.
    If so, then number 10 wire would have to go to the range, also.
    
    Marc H.

             <<< Note 2144.6 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>


   The stove has a standard plug on it so I'm assuming that its 120VAC.

   Assuming they are both 120VAC, then it would be OK to run from the circuit
  box to the stove outlet and then from the outlet to the range hood as long as
  I use #10 wire?

   I thought it would be simpler to have them both on the same circuit if you
  know what I mean.

   - Bob

According to Canadian equivalent of the NEC, NO other connections are
allowed to either Stove or Dryer ciruits.

Also, in the US, the code allows a neutral-less connection to a stove;
picking up the equivalent of the neutral instead from the ground.
Personally, I think this is dangerous, and I certainly wouldn't want
any more metal in my kitchen connected this way!

Stuart

    
    I think the last note applies to an electric stove.
    
    I'm fairly certain that my gas stove (which uses 110 for clock and
    igniters) amd hood are on the same circuit.
    

    RE: .5 
    
    Is the stove gas or electric?
    
    Marc H.

            <<< Note 2144.10 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>


   Electric stove....

I have never seen an electric stove which plugs into a "normal" 120V outlet,
though I have heard of some small ones made for trailers, etc., which might
do this.  Generally, the circuit for an electric "range" cannot serve anything
else.  You're certainly not allowed to hook up a 120V item across two leads
of the 240V circuit, though the stove itself may provide 120V for a
builtin outlet (this seems to be discouraged, lately).

			Steve

    RE: .12
    
    New electric stoves don't have those convient 120 outlets anymore.
    Too bad.....I used them for the toaster oven.
    
    RE: .11
    
    I would say that you can't hook up the 120 V range hood.
    
    Marc H.

    	A 120v stove is very unusual. BTW - The "can't hook it up" in the
    previous note isn't to say that it wouldn't work. It's to say that it
    is not to code and otherwise not recommended.
    
    	If you have a 120v electric stove, it is very likely to be at, or
    very near, the maximum current capacity of a 20 amp line with a couple 
    burners and the oven going.
    
    	Ray

    RE: .14
    
    Correct!
    
    Marc H.

   Thanks for your help. A separate connection it is!


   Oh well,

    Bob

    re .8:  What's dangerouns about having a stove hookup with no neutral?
    Even if it had a neutral, nothing in the stove would use it (assuming
    that there is a separate circuit for the 120V stuff).  E.g., the metal
    on the stove would be connected to the safety ground, regardless.
    I know that 240V electric heating elements only have connections for
    the two phase wires and the safety ground -- why would an electric
    stove be different?  (Again, except for the 120V load of the timer
    and light, which obviously require a neutral).
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

It is precisely the exceptions you mention that bother me .... after all
just because your current stove doesn't have a 120V outlet, over, and
over lights, and timer, doesn't mean the next stove connected to that
circuit won't.

If using the neutral as both grounded and grounding conductor (as is
being used in some stove hookups) was safe, why then use a separate
grounded and grounding conductor on all the other domestic circuits.

Frankly, given the amount of exposed metal on a stove, I would be extremely
concerned about the use of the neutral this way.

Stuart

To describe what is happening here ...


	A typical stove uses the 120-0-120 circuit as follows ...

	All heating elements across the two 120 V phases, giving 240V

	Clock, lights and outlet across one phase giving 120V


The cable feeding the stove is then

	Black (120V)\
	Red   (120V)/  giving 240V between them
	White 0V Neutral	(known as the Grounded Conductor)
	Bare  Ground		(known as the Grounding COnductor)

But NEC allows the ommission of the Neutral ... essentially connecting
the Neutral and Safety ground together (after all they are both at ground
potential).

Now under normal circumstances, there is no problem, but, if for some
reason there should be a fault or break in the Grounding conductor,
the frame of the stove now becomes electrified, depending on exactly
what 120V items are "on" will determine how much current can be drawn from
the frame ...

Why would this grounding conductor break ?  Poor connections at the terminals
are the primary reason ... but any general overload, such as an element
shorting to ground could put excessive currents in the grounding conductor
causing it to fuse, and yet may not be sufficient to blow the fuse,
depending on where the element shorted etc.

Moreover, a high resistance joint (such as a poor connection), with a 
high current item plugged into the appliance outlet can raise the "ground"
potential at the stove.  This condition is not lethal, but certainly is
not desirable.

By keeping the grounded conductor (neutral) and grounding conductor (safety
ground) separate, the frame of the stove cannot become "hot" except under
extreme fault conditions, and moreover, any currents then flowing inthe
ground are true fault currents ... making the use of ELCB's for the whole
house possible in areas where it is desirable.

Stuart

    RE: .19
    
    Also, doesn't the 120V units cause a current to flow in the ground?
    
    Marc H.

<The cable feeding the stove is then

<	Black (120V)\
<	Red   (120V)/  giving 240V between them
<	White 0V Neutral	(known as the Grounded Conductor)
<	Bare  Ground		(known as the Grounding COnductor)

<But NEC allows the ommission of the Neutral ... essentially connecting
<the Neutral and Safety ground together (after all they are both at ground
<potential).


This allowance by the NEC is only true if the stove is NOT fed from  
a sub-panel. If it comes from a sub-panel it must be a 4 wire circuit.
2 hots/neutral/ground.  

Mobile homes that are properly wired, most townhouses, apt buildings have
sub-panels feeding them....

    re .20
    
    Exactly the problem  ... the grounding conductor (safety ground)
    should only carry fault currents ... after all, that's why they
    decided to have a safety ground in the first place, so that it
    wouldn't carry anything but fault currents!
    
    This is one weird rule ...
    
    re .21
    
    And this exception (viz fed from a sub-panel) just adds to the fact
    that it is a crazy exception, because the thought is that because of
    the sub-panel, the grounding is compromised, because it is not a
    single conductor from panel ground connector to stove.
    
    Codes are weird at times!
    
    Stuart

    Re: .19
    
    Your comment that neutral and ground both being at ground potential
    is slightly misleading.  Neutral is derived from a ground driven in
    near the step-down transformer, and your safety ground is from a ground
    driven in near your electric service panel.  It is possible to have a
    slight difference in ground potential between these two points,
    expecially if the transformer is several houses away from yours.
    
    Paul

    re .23:  At my house, the neutral off the pole, my house neutral, the
    safety ground, and the ground rod by my house are all connected to each 
    other in the meter box.  This is a recent (this year) installation, and
    it's exactly how my wiring inspector wanted it done.  The grounding
    and grounded conductors can still have different voltages, but only
    due to voltage drop within my house wiring.  Of course, if there's a
    fault in one of the neutral connections and a lot of single phase power
    being used, that voltage difference could be non-trivial.  
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

    This looks like a good place to ask the question.....
    
    We made a big mistake when we built our home several years ago.  We put
    in an electric stove--downdraft model with solid (cast iron) heating
    elements.  The elements take forever to heat up, take forever to cool
    down, and are, in general, a pain.  We should have gone with gas.
    
    Of course, we could replace the stove with a new dual-fuel model (gas
    stovetop and electric oven), but that's big bucks.
    
    Has anyone ever done a retrofit to replace electric heating elements
    with gas?
    
    Chet
    

    Never heard of such a thing.  I doubt it exists.
    
    			Steve

    
    I seriously doubt as well. Your second best bet would be to replace
    the solid elements with the more common coils. I made the same 
    mistake myself at one point... sold the house/stove before replacing
    the burner elements... but it was a simple matter.
    
    								- Mac
    

    Bite the bullet, and get a gas stove.
    
    Marc H.

There is a new kind of element that allegedly gives you as much control
as gas but is electric.  My mother has a new cooktop with this kind of element.
It might be halogen.  I used her new stove over the holiday, and it was nice.

I have solid elements modules in a downdraft. I could replace them, but have
not bothered. Pretend the element is an extension of the pot and it works.
If you need to move the "pot" from high to low, switch burners.  I hate the
downdraft mechanism in my stove, and plan to replace the stove because of it
eventually. Which is why I haven't sprung a couple hundred bucks for new burner
modules. 

When I do replace the stove, I won't get solid element burners, since switching
burners is a major pain.   

I've used gas, coil, and solid element.  The biggest differentiators are the
quality of the stove and the skill of the cook.  The biggest real advantage
to gas is that most cooking instructions assume that that is what you have.
A cheap gas stove is a horrible experience - I used one in a rented house that
had effectively two settings: blast and off. 

Commercial gas stoves have much higher settings than residential gas or
electric.  This lets you boil things faster and get better results from a wok.

Margaret.

    Margaret, or anyone, can those new electric elements be retrofitted 
    to a 6 year old Hotpoint electric stove?  
    
    Jt

> There is a new kind of element that allegedly gives you as much control
> as gas but is electric.  It might be halogen.

	One of those home improvement shows demostrated one of those.
	From what I remember, they are more expensive, and as such,
	what they showed is that the new stoves with those elements
	only have one or two of those fancy elements, and the others
	the traditional coil.

	It may indeed be halogen, from what I remember when you turned
	the element on it glowed red right away.

    Thanks for the comments thus far.  Not that you've given me any
    quick way to solve my problem :^)
    
    >>It may indeed be halogen, from what I remember when you turned
    >>the element on it glowed red right away.
    
    I've seen these elements.  I think they glow red to show you they are
    on--not because they heat up right away.
    
    Chet

Yup, it must be halogen that my mother has, becuase the glow red right
away.  The reponse to input was very fast.

I bet, knowing my parents, that it was an expensive stove. It has four
halogen burners. I'm also sure that it was cheaper than adding gas to a house
that doesn't have it.

I have no idea what the retrofit story is. 

Margaret.

> I bet, knowing my parents, that it was an expensive stove. It has four
> halogen burners.

	I just saw one (I think) at PE Fletcher in Nashua that has
	four of these burners also.  Not as expensive as I would
	of thought, $900, but still more expensive than traditional
	electric :-)

    
    The only time you get burned is when you have to replace the halogen
    element.....$$$

	I am going to install a garbage disposal under my sink and am not sure 
where to draw the power from.  There is a junction box almost directly below 
the sink in the basement which is the supply for the kitchen lights, the hall 
lights, a couple of outlets (one of which has the TV and VCR plugged into it), 
a couple of basement lights and an air exchange unit.

The two of the three kitchen lights are 150 watt halogens, the rest are normal 
60W incadescent.  When I checked one of those home improvement books on 
wiring, it told me that on a 15amp/120V line that a safe draw on the line 
would be approx 1400Ws.

My question is, Is it OK to add the disposal to this line?  The disposal says 
it rated at 7.2 amps.  Or is it better to run its own line to the breaker box?
How about running it on the dishwasher line?? (The dishwasher is the only 
thing on that circuit).

Thanks,
Tom

I had this same question when I wired my remodelled kitchen.  Nashua's
electrical inspector told me it was ok to have it on the same circuit as
the dishwasher, but otherwise it should be on its own circuit.  I also
used a GFCI outlet to supply the disposer, which I think is a good idea.

					Steve

Beware that garbage disposers are not allowed by plumbing codes in a lot
of Canadian cities ... even though they are sold!

Stuart

> Beware that garbage disposers are not allowed by plumbing codes in a lot
> of Canadian cities ... even though they are sold!

	Why?  My guess is that they add too much organic materal into
	the public sewage treatment plant?

>        Why?  My guess is that they add too much organic materal into
>        the public sewage treatment plant?


In part, and also, in some areas they just add too much semi-solid matter
into the sewage systems!

Stuart

I believe they're also banned in NYC.

    Hi,

	I'm in the process of replacing an electric range with a gas range,
	and am wondering if I can use the existing outlet to run the gas range.
	The outlet is a three terminal, 240V outlet (two hot leads and a
	ground).  Now, I know that I can get 120 volts betwen one of the hot
	leads and the ground, but I'm pretty sure that the gas range will have
	a three-prong plug, with a separate neutral and ground.  Just tying
	the gas stove neutral and ground together will probably not meet code
	(although its essentially what electric ranges do).

	Alternately, I could tie one of the hot leads to ground at the 
	service entry point, and use the existing wiring as a normal
	3-conductor, 120V circuit, but this would probably also violate code,
	since the colors of the wires wouldn't be right.  

	Lastly, I also need to run a range hood off of this circuit.  Does
	anyone know if this is legal?  (It SHOULD be, since both appliances
	combined will use well under 15A @ 120V).

	Any thoughts?  Thanks,

						Peter Roman
                                                           

    No, going from one lead of the 240V line to ground to get 120V would
    not be according to code, for sure.
    
    Now, whether you could reconnect the 240V wiring at the breaker box to
    make it into a 120V line...I think so.  You say the colors wouldn't
    be right, but you can change the color of a wire for purposes of the
    code by wrapping a piece of colored tape around it at each end.  
    Electrical supply places sell a box of assorted colors of electrical
    tape for not too much money.
    I'm pretty sure that would be legal, but wouldn't guarantee it. 
    

   < Now, whether you could reconnect the 240V wiring at the breaker box to
   < make it into a 120V line...I think so.  You say the colors wouldn't
   < be right, but you can change the color of a wire for purposes of the
   < code by wrapping a piece of colored tape around it at each end.  
   < Electrical supply places sell a box of assorted colors of electrical
   < tape for not too much money.
   
	What Steve say's in the previous note is can certainly be done and done
	legally but I might add a couple of things to watch out for.



1)	The range wire is pretty large in gauge to be putting into a 20 amp
	breaker directly. You might have to splice a length of 12 gauge on to
	the larger range wire. 

2)	The code does not allow splices in panelboards (I know, everyone does it
		anyway) so you would have to make the splice in a box outside
the 			panelboard and run the 12-2 into the panelboard and put
it on a 20 amp
	breaker.

3)	The range wire might be aluminum. You will have to be sure that 
	whatever splice method you use is rated for copper/alum. connections.
	If it's a copper range cable this doesn't matter as long as the 	
	connection method is sized properly.

4)	At the kitchen end of the wire you will again have to splice from the 	
	range cable to a 12-2 cable because the range cable won't fit on a 	
	standard receptacles wiring connections. The box you use must be large 	
	enough in cubic inches for all the cables and the device.

5)	Yes you can attach the range hood to the same circuit.

	
Be sure to use the bare wire in the large cable as the ground, Mark whatever
insulated wire you use as NEUTRAL white.

Be sure the HOT wire is marked something OTHER THAN white, green or grey. In
other words if it's black, red, blue, orange or whatever it's OK.

It might just be easier to run a new 12-2 circuit from the panel to the range
opening in the counter and fish it up the wall to a receptacle and the range
hood. As an electrician, I'd prefer to see you run a new wire. It's less
confusing to the next homeowner that works on it. 

Have fun

Paul

    
    
    Look at it this way.  For a few extra $, run a new wire.  Add new
    brakers and receptical.   If your going to McMouse things, your
    just asking for trouble if something goes wrong.  Make it to code,
    Save any hassle with the insurance co. if need be.
    
    JD

    OK, thanks for the advice.  The 240V wire is in fact aluminium.  So,
    I'm convinced, and I'll just run new wire.  

    One more question:  Since the range sits against an outside wall, can
    I just bring the new wire up through the basement floor close to the
    wall and directly into an outlet box, then back out of the box, into
    the wall, and up to the range hood?  The outlet box would have to be
    some sort of loose box (not set in the wall), and it would just sit
    on the floor.  Does this sort of box exist, and would using it like
    I've described meet code?

    This sounds kind of kludgy, but I can't find any description anywhere
    of how to run wire from the basement up into an outside wall.  The old 
    240V wire came up through the floor into a 240V outlet which just sat on
    the floor.

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

						Peter

    No - this is not allowed.  The outlet box must be permanently
    mounted.  
    
    The preferable solution is to bring the wire up inside the wall.
    Why can't you do that?
    
    				Steve

Hi,

	Believe it or not what you want to do is legal. The box must be secured
in some way (screwed to the floor). BUT your right it's a KLUDGE. There's a
bunch of ways to get a wire into that outside wall. Here are a couple of the
most common ones:

1)	From the basement with a 18" x 5/8 or larger ship auger and a 1/2" drill
motor, drill a hole up into the wall at an angle. Have someone upstairs watching
for breakthrough and go SLOW so you don't end up in the floor. This is real easy
to do with new construction. ( a right angle drill and a short ship auger will
also work)
If it's older than say 40 years the large sill timbers that might have been used
could make it tough to do. Thats where the second method comes in:

2)	Remove the baseboard after marking where the top of is on the wall.
Drill down at an angle close the edge of the studwall shoe and into the
basement. Now chisel out a channel in the studwall shoe for the wire. Clear
enough drywall/plaster without going above the top of the baseboard line, for
the wire to be put into the wall:

	Now once you have access to the wall push a fish tape up into the bay
where the wire needs to go for the range hood or outlet etc and make sure that
you can indeed reach the spot you want to get to....ie, not firestopping or full
nailers for cabinets etc. After you have determined that you can get into the
wall proceed with cutting the wall for the box or in the case of the range hood
simply make a large enough hole to fish to but small enough to hide with the
range hood after it's installed. (you don't need a box with most range hoods.
Just attach the romex connector to the hole supplied in the range hood.)

When your all done if you used the upstairs behind the baseboard method be sure
to put a nail plate over the wire before putting the baseboard back on. These
plates are required for wires that are within 1-1/4" from the edge of the
member. It keeps someone from driving nails through the wire.

Later

Paul

    Well, thanks for the advice.  I finally opened up the wall a bit and
    drilled straight down through the stud plate (?).  This was the easy 
    part.  Believe it or not, the hardest part was removing the old 240V
    wire.  I didn't really have to, but I figured I'd just run the new wire
    along the same path that the 240V wire took.  That stuff is STIFF.

    Anyway, its all done now, but I had the relaxing experience of installing 
    the new breaker with the main breaker on (NOT RECOMMENDED unless you're
    considering a really permanent perm), since it seems to be fused or 
    otherwise stuck in the ON position.  

    Has anyone seen this before?  Most peculiar...

    Thanks again,

					Peter

                 

>>    Has anyone seen this before?  Most peculiar...

I'm assuming you mean the main breaker being stuck.  

Yes, a few times in my previous life as an apprentice.  Usually in very damp
locations and with some of the original panels that came out with breaker type
MAINs.  In many of the cases that I did see it, we were there to replace the
panel anyway so all it ment is that I had to be a bit more careful removing
/labeling the current circuts from the live panel.

bjm

    I've had it happen to me. The first symptom was random flickering of
    lights as the main lost contact with the bus bars in the panel. When
    it was changed the main was found frozen on.
    
    Cause - vent ell in heating pipe installed over the panel dripped on
    the SE cable coming in.
    
    
    Peter Duke

    Does anyone know how one goes about replacing the main breaker?  The two
    main supply lines are fastened to the main breaker by means of screws,
    and the main breaker is then snapped onto the supply rails in the breaker
    box.  It seems to me that I would need the power company to shut off the 
    supply for a while...or can I do this myself at the pole (I doubt it)?
           

Call the power company and schedule with them to pull the meter out of the
socket. When your done they will re-insert it & reseal it.

They may allow you to cut the seal and pull the meter or they may not. Depends
who you talk to and what power company. If you end up doing it yourself make
sure you do the following and remember that what I'm about to say is not a
complete step by step HOW to DO IT tutorial. If your uncomfortable with this
don't do it. You will be dealing with 230 volts at amperage capabilities of
10,000 amps in the meter socket. Still interested :')

	Remember that the line side of the meter is basically unfused
	as far as your concerned. If you short something out in the meter
	socket with a tool you'll vaporize the tool and the meter socket long 	
	before the fuse on the transformer blows. 

	find the new breaker to replace it before pulling the old one. The old
	one may break and you might not have a new one available.

	Make sure if the cable used is aluminum that you use oxide compound
	on the wires before making up the terminations.

	The cable terminations should be torqued to the spec provided with the 	
	breaker. (90% of them don't get torqued though)

	Before plugging the meter back into the socket make sure you have not
	introduced any shorts. Check the hot phases in the meter socket to
	the load phases in the meter socket with the main breaker off. You 	
	should read 0 volts if all is OK. plug the meter back in being careful
	to not misalign it.

	Turn all the breakers off. Turn the main on. Then turn the rest of the 	
	breakers on one at a time

	
	
	

    I looked everywhere for answers to these probably trivial questions, but
    since I couldn't find them (a lot of topics came really close...), here 
    goes:

    1) When wiring a kitchen, do the 20 Amp small appliance circuits have to
       have 20 Amp outlets?  My kitchen is currently wired with 12-gauge
       Romex, and both circuits in the kitchen have 20 Amp breakers on them,
       but all the outlets are the standard 15 Amp types.  This doesn't
       seem safe to me.

    2) Do the circuits have to be GFCI protected?  If so, will a single GFCI
       outlet or breaker on each circuit do the trick?

    3) I recently added an outlet for an electric stove (~12 inches off the
       floor) and range hood.  Should this circuit be GFCI protected?

    Thanks in advance,

				Peter

    1.  The NEC explicitly allows either 15A or 20A outlets on a 20A
    circuit.  Indeed, I'd expect to see 15A outlets unless you had a
    dedicated circuit for a high-amperage appliance.
    
    2.  Any counter outlet within 6 feet of a sink must be GFCI protected. 
    This is typically done by having a GFCI outlet be the first in line and
    remaining outlets run downstream of it.  I would recommend GFCI
    outlets instead of breakers; they're cheaper and more reliable.
    
    3.  Surely the stove and hood are on separate circuits?  (The stove
    would be something like 30-40A at 240V; you're not allowed to run
    a separate device off of this.)  No GFCI is required.
    
    				Steve

 
    Thanks for the answers.  RE. the stove, I misspoke...its a gas stove, so
    it just needed 120V to run a light, clock and igniters.  I figured using
    the same circuit for the hood would be fine (combined they pull well under
    10A).  Just out of curiosity, what is the rationale behind allowing 15A
    outlets on a 20A circuit?  Is it that 20A plugs won't fit the 15A 
    outlets?   Thanks again.

    
    Are you sure about that 15a outlet on a 20a line???
    
    JD

Ok, running the range hood off of the same circuit as the gas stove is fine
(I did this.)

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that 15A outlets on a 20A line are ok.  You're
not supposed to run near the circuit capacity anyway (80% is the steady-state
limit).  The idea is that you'll have a number of appliances which draw
well under 15A on the circuit.  If you have high-draw appliances (say, a
large microwave or convection oven), you'd be better off to put them each on
a dedicated circuit.

					Steve

    Actually you would not want 20 amp outlets because it is so easy
    to overload in a kitchen. 15 amp outlets on 20 circuit/wiring is definitely
    safer and way to go. Of course there are very few household items if
    any that have the 20 amp plug anyway.
    
    But as mentioned, go the extra distance and put in multiple circuits at
    least. Things like microwave, toasters, toaster ovens, hot plates, etc.
    draw lots of current. Two of these items can trip the breaker. 
    We had to add and extra circuit in our kitchen for the microwave
    because everything was on one 20 amp circuit from 1966. So when
    microwave and toaster went on then time for trip to basement to
    reset breaker. I would recommend no less than two circuits for 
    counter top appliances. 
                       
    				Harold
    

Just for information, in Canada, the code way to do this is to wire all
kitchen counter outlets as split duplex outlets on separate 15 Amp circuits.
Canadian code and NEC are so similar ... but this is another one of those
little differences.

You split the link between the two halves of the outlet, run a 3+ground
cable (Black, Red, White, ground) from a ganged 15A breaker to each counter
outlet.  Interestingly, the White Neutral never passes more than 15Amps
and when both sides of the outlet are in use, actually passes LESS than
the maximum current, because the two "hot" wires are from opposite phases.

With higher current devices being used in kitchens these days (toasters,
toaster ovens, microwaves, self-heating dishwashers etc ... and in Canada
12-15Amp Electic Kettles are normal) the chances of overloading 20A circuits
is too high, so code opted for this approach instead.

And to be honest, I think I prefer this approach over 20 Amp circuits ...
we'd regularly trip a 20 Amp breaker in our house.

Stuart

re .2:

The 15A outlets on a 20A circuit are supposed to be 15A to the actual outlets
but 20A passthrough.  This means you can only plug a 15A device into it (both
nonground prongs vertical) and not a 20A device (neutral prong horizontal) but
you can have up to 20A total downstream.  In other words the wire screws and
the jumper between them can handle 20A.

This is not a safety issue since everything is rated for the max current it
will see.  However you don't want a 15A passthrough outlet in there.  (I
don't know if they're available, maybe some old stuff is so rated)

There are hardly any 120V 20A devices that you'll likely encounter in a home
environment.  Probably the only ones are certain air conditioners.

-Mike

    Does the Canadian code require a separate circuit for each outlet?
    If not, then the question of overloading is simply a matter of
    how many outlets are on each branch circuit and how well distributed
    the loads are on the circuits.  I beleive that the latest NEC requires
    multiple branch circuits to a kitchen, precisely in order to help
    avoid overloading.  The split outlet trick with 14-3 wire yields a
    max of 30A in the kitchen; two 20A circuits with 12-2 wire are surely
    just as good or better.  Or one could use 12-3 wire for 40A with
    (possibly) a better distribution of loads.
    
    Personally, I've decided to keep things simple by always using 12-guage
    for non-lighting circuits.  All of the 15A outlets that I've found for
    sale are rated for 20A pass-through, so this is safe.  Connecting the
    wires isn't quite as easy as for 14-guage, but I find the extra time 
    (and cost) to be a tiny fraction of the whole of any wiring project.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

>    Does the Canadian code require a separate circuit for each outlet?

For each COUNTER outlet a separate outlet is required.  Using multiple
outlets on a 20A circuit doesn't quite cut it ... Plug in a a 15A Electric
Kettle, and a 12A toaster on the same circuit and hey presto, it's a trip
to the fusebox!  Code used to allow multiple outlet 20A kitchen circuits,
and I believe they are still allowed for the rest of the kitchen outlets,
but not for counter outlets.  Of course, 15A electric kettles are rare
commodities here in the USA ... as I discovered when I came down here ...
so the normal heavy current users down here are microwaves, toasters and
toaster ovens and coffee makers ... most other kitchen appliances are an 
amp or two.  So the loading factors will definitely be a little different.

Given that along a counter length there must be outlets, I believe every
3 or 4 feet, that means the typical kitchen has 3 counter outlets ... and
thus there is sufficient current in the kitchen (3 split duplex outlets
@30A each = 90A!)

Also Canadian code does not permit passthru on the outlet ... a passthru
outlet is wired:

		Wire Nuts
		   /|\
     In     ------- | --------   Out
		    |
		Pigtails to
		 Outlet

Another little curiosity!

Stuart

    A separate 15A circuit per counter plug, wow!  Actually, a 15A kettle
    cannot be legally plugged into a 15A circuit in the USA -- the current
    draw of a heating element is limited to 80% of the max circuit current.
    I suppose that's to cover for overvoltage cases and general safety
    factors.  I found this out when I was wiring up 240V electrical heating
    elements -- they are a bit over an amp a foot, so I can only wire up 15'
    of them to a 20A circuit without violating code.  Not that my inspector
    would notice, but still...
    
    Regarding wire-through circuits, the NEC requires that the neutral
    be connected with a wire nut.  Only the hot wires can be wired through.
    The idea is that you can break a circuit by disconnecting a receptacle,
    but you cannot break a neutral connection by doing that.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    I thought it was for the load reasons, that most kitchens are now wired
    with a seperate circuit per duplex box?
    
    	Dave.

    A separate circuit per box?  What overkill!  Most counter appliances
    draw an amp or two at most.  One of my counter circuits has five
    boxes on it.  The city electrical inspector said it was fine (he did
    tell me to use "greenies" to tie the grounds together rather than
    just twisting them tightly as I had been doing.
    
    					Steve

> (he did tell me to use "greenies" to tie the grounds together rather than
> just twisting them tightly as I had been doing.

	greenies?  I've done just like you were doing, tightly twisting
	the bare cooper ground wires together (I don't see how you could
	get better contact surface area than that?)

>>> (he did tell me to use "greenies" to tie the grounds together rather than
>>> just twisting them tightly as I had been doing.
>>
>>	greenies?  I've done just like you were doing, tightly twisting
>>	the bare cooper ground wires together (I don't see how you could
>>	get better contact surface area than that?)

For as long as I've been doing residential wiring (hmm I was 17 then) the 
ground wires always had to connected by some mechanical means - either wire
nut (of the correct size, including "greenies" or by a copper crimp.  And if
you are using metal boxes, you need to attach the ground wire to the box (not
using one of wire clamp screws if it is also clamping the wire in) and to the
device (what ever you are putting in the box).

I'm sure its in the NEC somewhere!

bjm

A "greenie" is a green wire nut that has a hole in the tip.  It's designed
for connecting bare ground wires where one of the wires is cut long, sticks
out the hole, and is then used to connect to the outlet.

					Steve

>>A "greenie" is a green wire nut that has a hole in the tip.  It's designed

etc..

and they can ONLY be used for ground wires.  Using them on any line that
normally carries voltage is against code.

     <<< Note 5383.12 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

    >>>A separate circuit per box?  What overkill!  Most counter appliances
    >>>>draw an amp or two at most.  
    
    boy, I would like to know where you buy toaster ovens, toasters,
    microwaves, hot plates, coffee makers etc. that draw only 1 or 2
    amps and work !!!!!!!!!!! Please tell me we can all save 
    electricity. almost all of these items draw 5-12 amps !!!!!!
    toasters etc are usually near 12.
    
    I've had microwave and toaster consistently trip good 20 amp breaker.
    Ending paying to add another circuit. I'm not saying put one per
    plug but anyone who is rewiring etc. in kitchen and puts in
    one 20 amp circuit for all outlets is brain dead.
    
    A typical hot plate is 1500 watts. Coffee makers can draw a lot
    when heating water, very little in keep warm. Those little
    hot water makers that are tiny draw 12-13 amps. 
    
    Also many times refrig is on same circuit, they can really draw 
    especially when switching on.
    
    				Harold
    
    
    
    One of my counter circuits has five
    boxes on it.  The city electrical inspector said it was fine (he did
    tell me to use "greenies" to tie the grounds together rather than
    just twisting them tightly as I had been doing.
    
    					Steve

    

As I said earlier, a microwave should be on its own circuit.  Mine is.

NEC requires a minimum of two 20A "small appliance" circuits.  I have three,
plus the dedicated one for my microwave.  My toaster-oven and coffee-maker
are on separate countertop circuits. 

Also, the small appliance circuit is not allowed to be shared with anything
else except a clock.  You're foolish if you have your refrigerator on the same
circuit; mine is on a circuit of its own.  You don't want a refrigerator
on a circuit that is likely to get a breaker tripped.

Hot plate?  In a kitchen?

				Steve

    Maybe I should have said warmer plate which would not be unusual
    for someone to use when guests are over, they can suck up a lot
    of amps themselves. 
    
    Really my only advice is there are many kitchen appliances that
    commonly draw LOTS of current, so if your installing wiring in
    kitchen, make sure you got enough capacity for a lot of heavy loads
    on counter. If you are doing the work anyway the extra cost to
    be conservative is minor compared to having to do it again in future.
    
    My house is 30 years old, the kitchen was probably fine back then,
    but nowadays especially with the fact that most counters have
    microwave ovens and toasters etc., you need more that years ago.
    A lot these things show up at worst time, i.e. having a party,
    so the coffee maker starts, expresso machine starts, microwave is
    heating up stuff, toaster oven on etc. because you have a lot of
    people and you need to do things quickly, so presto !! everybody
    turns off all in synch due to overload. I've had two kitchens
    in two different houses where I've had to dance around where to
    plug things in because of too little capacity. The house before
    the microwave had to have a cord to either dining room or family
    room.
    
    My current kitchen has a dedicated outlet for microwave now. We are
    lucky it can be plugged into wall behind refrig, that is where
    we had another outlet run from box. But because of finished work
    in kitchen adding any other outlets or rewiring to break up existing
    circuits would have run a substantial amount of money.
    
    So if remodeling and putting up all sorts of nice stuff, don't go
    cheap and save a few bucks on electrical work now that you
    may regret in future.
    
    			Harold
    

    re: Using only 80% of allowed capacity
    
    	Why would a 15A appliance be illegal on a 15A circuit ? I know that
    the wire itself can carry in excess of its rating (i.e. 15A wire can
    carry ~17A).
    
    	Ray

    re -.1
    
    	It's the law.

>     re: Using only 80% of allowed capacity
>     	Why would a 15A appliance be illegal on a 15A circuit ? I know that
>     the wire itself can carry in excess of its rating (i.e. 15A wire can
>     carry ~17A).

	My guess is they don't wnat you to be triping your breakers all
	the time!

	Re: Running at full capacity of rated circuit..I.E. 15 amp
	appliance on 15 amp circuit. Your wire will heat up and
	cause the connections to become flaky. Which can cause
	dreaded resistance loss and raise your electric bill.
	I use to own a older home and found I had to retighten and
	clean many of the wire connections in the Distribution
	panel and outlets. It cut down my bill significantly.

Re: -1

>>>     Your wire will heat up and
>>> 	cause the connections to become flaky. Which can cause
>>> 	dreaded resistance loss and raise your electric bill.


to say nothing of the wire heating up and starting a fire in an old house,
causing the more dreaded house loss and raise your insurance rates

    re: a few back
    
    	Nothing personal, but if I wanted a "because the law says so" reply
    I wouldn't have bothered entering a note. I was hoping someone could
    explain why a 15A rated circuit cannot carry a 15A continuous load.
    
    	As I said, I know for a fact that the wire itself has a saftey
    buffer. Running at 15A means you are using approx. 80% of the capacity
    of a 15A rated wire. This is by design. Yes, it will heat up. It will
    also heat up at 14A, 13A, 12A, etc.. It just makes no sense to set it
    up so that a circuit can only pull 80% of its rated capacity.
    
    	If you think about what the average person will do (if you're lucky), 
    they may add up the current rating listed on their appliances. If they
    know they're on a 15A circuit, and their totals add to 15A or less,
    the assumption will be that all is OK. When everything in the circuit
    says it's rated for 15A, it's rather stupid to impose an 80% restriction 
    on a circuit in a book that the vast majority of people will never
    read.
    
    	This leads me to one of two conclusions. Either someones interpretation 
    of the NEC book is wrong, or the writers of the NEC book are out of touch 
    with reality.
    
    	Ray

Code applies to the installer, not the user.  The only enforcement for the user
is the breaker or fuse.  Doesn't a 15-amp breaker break the circuit when more
than 15 amps are drawn?  So how can the code tell me how much current to draw
on my circuit?

One reason is a 15A breaker is not guaranteed to trip at 15.001A while
staying on at 14.999A.  You want a maximum current rating that's below
the minimum "trip" current of an approved "15A" breaker.

Also many devices (esp. motors) have surge currents in excess of the
steady state current.  If the steady state current is 15A the surge will
be more than 15A, perhaps by enough to trip the breaker.

Also two of the same device may not necessarily draw the same current.
If one draws 15A, the second may draw more, or maybe less.

-Mike

Also, I understood breakers were designed to trip at 120% of their rated
capacity for a defined period which I cannot remember ... pretty short,
but run virtually forever at their rated capacity.  (In practice, they
won't depending on the airflow in and around the panel!)

Breakers and fuses are generally rated on a current/time curve.  Fast-blow
fuses have a lower tolerance to short term overloads ... Slo-blo fuses are very
tolerant to short term overloads ... and are often used on circuits like motors.

Stuart

Here in the office at ZKO,  we were short on power in the old section (ZK01)
and we were regularly running 20 Amp circuits at around 22 amps continuous.
The electricians came and took the readings. The circuits didn't blow as 
long as we were careful as to the order we turned on the equipment.

We finally got more power installed after about 3 months of complaining
and waiting for a new subpanel to be installed.

(FYI,  ZK01 was designed with 20 amps for 4 offices,  ZK02 with 20 amps
for 2 offices, and ZK03 with 20 amps for each office.)

Garry

           I recently got a slight jolt when touching the frypan on one
           of our burners.  Sounds like some voltage is leaking to the
           heating element and thru to the pan.  Would replacing element
           fix this?
           
           Steve

>           I recently got a slight jolt when touching the frypan on one
>           of our burners.  Sounds like some voltage is leaking to the
>           heating element and thru to the pan.  Would replacing element
>           fix this?

Heating elements are basically large wires with a high resistance.  The 
resistance causes the element to get hot, and voila! cooking!
So, replacing an element is not likely to fix the problem.  The real
problem seems to be that at the time you touched the pan, you were grounded
somehow so that the electricity could flow through the element, pan, you
to ground.  Given the constuction of houses and kitchens in general, 
that is usually a pretty unusual combination (insulation on handle, unless
metal, floors usually non-conducting, etc).  I believe the above to 
be correct speculation, though perhaps my understanding of the term 
resistance (is useless!) may be incorrect.  

PeterT

I'm pretty sure that electric burners are metal tubes with the wire running
through them axially.  At least that's what it looks like at the connector.
If that's the case, it sounds like replacing the burner will help.  I'd
try calling an appliance parts place or two and picking their brains,
or calling the manufacturer's 800 number if there is one.

    re .26:  The NEC rules on household circuits certainly seem to be a lot
    more lenient than the rules for fixed equipment circuits.  On the other
    hand, although household circuits CAN be abused greatly, they mostly
    aren't.  And even if someone plugs in 15A of stuff on a 15A circuit,
    it probably isn't all running at the same time for very long.
    
    Now consider a fixed electric heater.  It could be running continuously
    for hours.  Or, given some of the winters we've had, for days or weeks.
    I may trust my 15A wiring to carry 15A for an hour safely.  Should I
    trust it to carry 15A continuously for days or weeks?  As the insides
    of the walls gradually heat up and dry out?  
    
    I've heard it said that one must never break a safety rule that makes
    no sense -- because if it makes no sense, then there's a gap in one's
    knowledge.  It's only when one thoroughly understands the reasons
    behind a safety rule that it (might) be safe to make an exception.
    But note that a lot of experienced people get hurt by making exceptions!
    
    Reading through the annotated National Electrical Code is a confusing
    and frustrating endeavor.  However, I'm impressed by the number of
    times I come across a phrase like the following:  "Owing to a
    significant number of burn-downs, the following rule was added..."
    My impression is that, by and large, the rules are there because
    of genuine dangers.  I'm unclear on all of the reasons behind the
    80% capacity rule, though I gather that the potential for a high
    continuous load is part of it.  But since I don't understand it,
    I *definately* don't want to break that rule.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

re: .18, PeterT

>Heating elements are basically large wires with a high resistance.

As Gerald suggests in .19, heating elements are much more than this. They
are made of "calrod" as he described. (I learned about this in the
ELECTRO_HOBBY conference where some kind folks went into great detail.)
This is why you _can_ touch a hot burner with a pan, since no electricity
should be present at the surface. Consider the other situation of the
resistance wire in a toaster which _will_ electrocute you if you touch it
with a metal object.

-Jack

Some burners use a ceramic tube rather than a metal tube ... 

It is rare, but not unknown for an element to short through the tube ...
usually accompanied by a hot section of element and a cold section.
(Look at the ring when on ...)   Pull the element out and look for
a hole through the tube.  When a hole does develop, it may not actually
short like this, but usually the life of the element is MUCH shorter usually
measured in minutes! (sometimes they just go bang and that's the end)

Stuart

    well, I know from designing fuses into electronic devices that you
    never, ever, run a fuse continuously at 100% of its rating; the fuse
    will eventually fail, where "eventually" isn't tremendously long.
    
    I think there are several reasons behind limiting a circuit to somewhat
    less than its nominal rating: 
     - many things (like incandescent lamps, and just about anything with a 
       heating element or any induction motor) draw more (often much more) 
       current when first turned on than their nameplate rating. Loading 
       a circuit to capacity thus often results in nuisance tripping, which 
       often results in the homeowner doing stupid things (like installing a 
       larger breaker).
     - The nominal rating is really a safety rating, meaning nothing is
       gonna fail catastrophically in the short term running at its rated
       current. This does not mean that a devices life isn't significantly
       shortened by running it at its rated current (for example, if you
       run the typical 59-cent duplex outlet with a 15-A load plugged into
       one of the receptacles, you can expect the contacts in the
       receptacle to fail fairly soon from heat fatigue.. when this
       happens, things can get a little spectacular..)
     - (this is the one you didn't want to hear, but I can't resist..)
       Because the NEC says so. 
    
    ...tom

    But in the event of a short through the tube, I'd expect some fireworks
    because the frame that supports the element should make a (fairly
    lousy) contact with the grounded frame ot the stove. 
    
    So, I'd check out the ground on your stove.. 
    
    ...tom

I stand corrected.  It sounded good though ;-)  The basic flaw in my 
logic would be that if the elements themselves were electrically alive,
ANY metal appliance should cause a short when place on them.  Which
would be undesirable, unless you like electric food ;-)  Definitely
been thinking about taking up electronics as the next area to delve
deeper into, but I've already got my hands full as it is.

PeterT

    	The thing that caught my attention was -
    
    > Actually, a 15A kettle cannot be legally plugged into a 15A circuit in 
    > the USA -- the current draw of a heating element is limited to 80% of 
    > the max circuit current.
    
    	If the plug on the kettle is a 15A configuration, than someone will 
    plug it into a 15A outlet. The person that is actually plugging in the
    kettle is not breaking the law. That's what I sort of took exception
    to. The manufacturer of the kettle broke a law by not putting a 20A plug 
    on the kettle, but the consumer is not breaking the law.
    
    	As someone mentioned, the 80% rule can only apply to fixed loads.
    There is no way (by law) that you can impose that sort of restriction on
    variable loads. 
    	
    	As mentioned, the wire itself tends to be at approx. 80% of its
    capacity at its rated load. If the breaker trips at its approx. nameplate
    rating, the 80% saftey buffer is built in automatically.
    
    	Ray

    Ah, my apologies.  When I said that it was illegal, I didn't mean that
    it was illegal to USE it, I meant that it was (to the best of my
    understanding of the NEC) illegal to MAKE/SELL a 15A heating appliance
    with a 15A plug.  Mostly what I meant, though, was to start a
    discussion on the issue of using only 80% continuous capacity.
    
    AND, whether it is enforced for household circuits or not, I wanted
    to make the point that if the NEC considers it not safe to use a
    fixed equipment circuit at over 80% continuous heating load capacity,
    then it probably isn't safe on a household circuit either, regardless
    of arguments about how 15A wire is designed to carry more than 15A.
    At least, it isn't safe enough for me.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

	Thanks for the answers to my original questions + a wealth of other
	useful information.  I have a few more questions:

	1) I'd like to connnect a garage door opener to the same circuit
	   that feeds my range (gas) + my range hood (it's a long story).  
	   Total current draw on the circuit would be < 10A, so it would 
	   certainly be safe, but I'm worried about violating some obscure 
	   code such as "Thou shalt power not thy garage door opener with the 
	   same circuit as thy range hood"...

	2) Can 12 gauge and 14 gauge wire (romex) be connected together with
	   wire nuts?

	3) Is it legal to route 2 different circuits physically parallel to
	   each other for a few feet, including running them through the
	   same holes in studs?  I can't see anything wrong with this, but
	   I've also never seen 2 cables going through the same hole in a 
	   stud.  The reason I'm asking is that it would be MUCH easier for 
	   me to do some of the wiring modifications I'm making if I don't 
	   have to drill new holes through studs all over the place.

	Thanks in advance,

					Peter

1) There are no restrictions I know of as to what can be on the same circuit as
the range hood.

2) Yes, you can, but if this is a 20A circuit you'd better use that 14GA only
for running power to lamps.

3) Yes, it's allowed.  Indeed, I see this a lot.  There probably are some
limits on the number of cables run in a "raceway".

			Steve

    However, if it's a 20A circuit, I believe that it's against code
    to use 14ga anywhere in the fixed wiring -- all of the fixed wiring
    in a 20A circuit is supposed to be able to carry 20A.  This may seem
    pointless if the 14ga is just being used to hook up a garage door
    opener, for example.  But circuits tend to be extended over time.
    What if someone extends that wire to add some receptacles?  The
    total current in the 14ga wire could easily exceed 15A.
    
    If it's a 15A circuit, then it's legal to mix 12ga and 14ga, but I
    think it's a bad idea.  Why?  Well, someone could easily come along
    later and assume that the 12ga wire means that it's ok to use it as
    a 20A circuit.  It avoids potential future problems to have each
    branch circuit either all 14ga or all 12ga.
    
    The basic priniciple in both of the above situations is the same.
    A safe design is one that allows people to occaisionally do silly
    things without serious consequences.  Any system that requires that
    everything be done right to avoid disaster is not safe.  
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

>>    However, if it's a 20A circuit, I believe that it's against code
>>    to use 14ga anywhere in the fixed wiring -- all of the fixed wiring

yup.  The only way to bring it up to code is to make it a 15A circuit.

bjm