Conference 7.286::home_work

    There was a discussion, albeit very technical, on listening rooms
    in the AUDIO conference quite some time ago.
    
    -joet

    I tried to do this to the previous note, but NOTES wouldn't let me,
    since I'm neither the author, or moderator.  The AUDIO notesfile is
    located on DSSDEV::.  Press <SELECT> to add it to your notebook. 
    
    	- Barry

    Our daughter has taken up <wince> the electric bass and wants to form
    <double_wince> her own band.  At the moment her practices are limited
    to the family room because that's where the only amplifier in the house
    lives, but that's obviously not a long-term solution.
    
    The only available places to be converted to a soundproof <???>
    area are:
    
    -  Her bedroom, one of four on the second floor of an ordinary 2-story
       wood frame house. Walls are 4" studs with fiberglass insulation,
       finished with sheetrock and paint.
    
    -  The presently unfinished basement, which we would like to finish
       anyway. 
    
    Since she won't be using it late at night (not if she wants a long
    life, anyway!), the most important thing is to keep the sound away from
    the living areas on the first floor.  Which area will be easier to
    soundproof? Does sound travel more up or down?  What kind of materials
    muffle sound?  (She's heard that cardboard egg cartons stapled to the
    wall make an effective sound barrier -- anybody know anything about
    this?) 
    
    Since the basement is presently unfinished, I could put in a special
    music room -- any ideas for that? (The basement is 24' x 36', about 8'
    from concrete floor to insulated but uncovered floor joists.) 
    
    Any advice gratefully welcomed. 
    
    --bonnie, whose mother warned her this would happen some day

The optimum choice is to have her practice at the *other* band members' 
houses, but if you're willing to build to suit, then you'll be beloved 
of the other parents.

Sound propagates through air as you'd expect, and also through solid 
material by coupling.  The egg-crate idea is taken from seeing anechoic 
rooms that use a foam wall covering that is made up of little pyramids 
that point into the room.  The sides of the pyramids keep the sound from 
reflecting back at its source, and the foam absorbs the energy, so you 
get a sonically "dead" space.  I don't think this would be good for your 
application because when the sound becomes dead in the room, they'll 
just crank up the amps so they can hear themselves, which will increase 
the coupling through the floor, walls and ceiling to the rest of the 
house.

Probably you want an accoustically "bright" room, that will reflect the 
sound back, and encourage them to use less volume to hear themselves.  
Luckily, most building materials are hard and smooth-surfaced, which 
makes them bright.  So when the kid dumps the band, you won't be stuck 
with a room that isn't useful for anything else.  Elsewhere in this file 
someone described how to double-stud a wall to keep it from vibrating
and conducting sound.  If you did that and insulated heavily above the
ceiling, and provide some pads to put their speakers on to reduce
coupling with the floor, I think you'd have hit the best compromise
between function and ease of building. 

There was a note in DSSDEV::AUDIO on building sound rooms for listening 
to the stereo that might give you some good ideas if you want to build a 
music room.  But remember, audiophiles struggle to INCREASE coupling to 
make the whole room carry the sound.

					Good luck,
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I second the recommendation to stay away from egg-cartons.
    They will not appreciably muffle sounds to other rooms.
    They will dampen the reflection back at the band (and motivate
    them to turn the volume even higher).  And they can constitute
    a significant fire hazzard - they catch and burn much easier
    than normal building materials.
    
    (Of course it might be less expensive to hire a hall for
    their practice sessions than renovating ... ;^)

    bd

    I thought the egg cartons sounded suspicious, but she insists several
    of her friends have done it. (Obviously not readers of this notes
    file!)
    
    Since the basement isn't presently finished, it's not so much a
    renovation as an addition -- I can probably handle the decoupled studs
    and the heavily-insulated ceiling.  But what kind of insulation are we
    talking about here -- the same kind that holds in heat? Some kind of
    foam? Something I don't know about yet? 
    
    --bonnie 
    
    - 

Ceiling tiles of good quality (the type you see in hung ceilings at 
places like DEC plants) are somewhat useful, and reasonably 
inexpensive.  Some are promoted as sound-proofing.  THe nice thing 
about these is you can cut them, mount them, hang them, etc. pretty 
easily.  

In all honesty though, the lo-frequency sounds from the bass will be 
difficult to totally kill by ANY means - have her use headphones (or 
take up the eledtric flute ;-)

    
    I am building a room for the same purpose as your daughter. I'm
    a guitar player and have a quintet that practices in the basement.
    I went with 2 x 4 construction with 3 1/2" fiberglass insulation
    in the walls and 6 1/4" fiberglass in the ceiling (they only used
    2 x 8's when they built the house).  
    
    when I got to this point, the band loved the room.  It was quite
    dead sounding, we could hear each other much better, (we are a 'semi
    -loud" jazz/rock band and use a PA system - all instruments are
    amplified except the drums).   Probably the worst leakage at this
    point was through the Hot Air Duct work, but most of the lower
    frequencies were dampened substancially.
    
    This weekend we Sheetrocked the walls ( 1/2" thick), and got the
    reverb back (Eeek, but i knew that would happen) !!!  I am planning

    Keep me posted! Keep me posted!
    
    thanks,
    --bonnie

    
    the next step is the suspended ceiling, just bought my lighting
    last nite at Standard Electric in Waltham, after comes the carpet.
    
    i'm going use commercial grade with a reflective pad, this stuff
    is great, it gives the floor an R factor of 11 (equal to 3 1/2"
    wall insullation).  this is a must for basement rooms.
    
    /paul
    

    Am still plugging away on the addition, but the end is in sight!
    Before I put up the sheetrock on the interior walls, I want to do
    some soundproofing, especially between the bedrooms.  Any
    recommendations from experience out there?  I have some excess 3.5"
    fiberglass insulation, and some excess 1/2" rigid insulation.  Have
    aldo heard of people swearing by styrofoam.
    
    thanks,-reed
    

    I wanted the same thing in our addition (which I'm having done by
    a builder so it gets done in my lifetime).
    
    He recommended either or both of:
    
       o Using excess wall insulation (fiberglass)
       o Using a double layer of wallboard (staggering the seams)
    
    He's done the double wallboard method before and the nice thing
    is the bottom (inner) layer of wallboard can be large scraps, if
    you have them.  But even if it's new pieces, they're cheap.  And
    of course you don't have to tape the seams on the inner layer.
    
    I'm planning on using the insulation and perhaps a double layer
    of wallboard on one side.
    
    Of course, if you're not in a hurry, I can let you know how it works
    out in about 6 weeks.  8^)
    
    -Dave

	I've read that simple mass is the best sound stopper, which
	agrees with .1's suggestion about double wallboard.

	In my last house, there were two adjacent bathrooms, with the
	shared wall filled with fiberglas chips.  The chips were the
	same stuff used for attic insulation.  They had somewhat the
	consistency of foam insulating board.  One nuisance was that
	when I removed a medicine cabinet I was deluged with half a
	bushel of dusty little yellow thingies.  It was great fun
	getting (half) of them back up in the wall.

	I didn't notice whether the wall studs were staggered, but the
	soundproofing was pretty good.

	Regards, Robert.

If you need some more fiberglass scraps, see note 1121.

    A co-worker went thru this situation with the new (expensive)
    condo he bought some months ago. This guy looked into all types
    of soundproofing imaginable. He came up with some stuff that
    the builders had'nt even heard about! I suggest you drop this
    guy a note, he'll probably be able to help you out.
    He's not at his phone to often so use VAXmail to NANOOK::ROBERTS
    (first name Doug)
    
    Good luck,
    John
    

    I am currently having a new house built by a production builder
    and I am considering having some of the interior walls insulated
    to help reduce the noise between bedrooms. The walls I am considering
    are made of 2 x 4's and covered with drywall. Would it be worth
    my while (money) to have this done. Would the sound be cut down
    enough to notice a difference.
    
    Al

    
    Brick walls have always been a good sound insulator.  Does anyone
    know if that 'brickmaster' stuff that's advertised on TV would
    make good for sound insulation?  They are those bricks that are
    about 1/2 inch thick.
    
    - Ted

    Carpeting on the walls works well for sound deadening.  We had it
    on one wall in the family room of our previous house and worked better
    than an acoustic ceiling.  It was an inexpensive, low pile type
    attached directly to the wall.  Not bad for upkeep since no one
    walked on it (although both boys tried).

    
    I would like to soundproof one wall of a room in my apartment, so
    I can move the stereo system to that room (it's a pretty big system!).
    
    I have read all of the notes on soundproofing in this file, and
    the room related notes in the audio notes files.
    
    It seems like the best way to go is build another wall over that,
    but I see a couple of problems with that.  First, like I said,
    it's an apartment, and the landlord might not appreciate "renovations"
    like this.  Secondly, the wall has baseboard heating.  So, wouldn't
    that make adding the second wall a much bigger deal (wouldn't I
    have to move the heating units?)
    
    Any suggestions?  I am a real klutz when it comes to DIY, but I'm
    willing to try (or pay!)
    
    Thanks
    
    Jim

    	If you want to absorb sound (NOT form a barrier), the qualities
    to look for are the flow resistance of the material (ie. it must
    be porous) and it's thickness.  Foams are a very expensive alternate
    to good old fiberglass board. The best a material can do in absorbing
    noise is to have an absorption coefficient of 1.00  (actually, you
    can't measure reliably above .98 or so using standard test methods).
    If you use fiberglass board, say the semi-rigid stuff of about 1.5
    lb./cu.ft. or more, you'll have adequate flow resistance.  A 1"
    thickness will do in most situations. If you want to kill bass
    frequencies, go to 2" or more.  (What happens is that for every
    doubling of thickness, the curve of absorption vs. frequency moves
    down about 1 octave.  So, the absorption coefficient at 125 Hz is
    about twice as good for 2" material as it is for 1" material.)
     	Fiberglass board is MUCH cheaper than the foam products. Get
    some burlap, or other porous cloth and cover it in style! If you
    really want to get fancy, a frequent detail is to use a slatted
    wood facing. 
    	Just don't wast your money on the foam stuff.  - Chris

    
    
      It's too bad that the "new" thing never got into the file.
    
      I am in a duplex and have some people next door to me that like
    to turn the stereo up at 1:00 am.  This makes me kinda cranky.
    To say the least.
    
      I have reviewed the notes on soundproofing and I wondering if
    there any new ideas out there.  I don't really want to tear done
    the wall and stagger the studs.  But if all else fails, I just might.
    
      I have been wondering about these companies that blow insulation
    into exterior walls.  Can I have them come in and blow the insulation
    into the walls?  Would it work well?  (There's NOTHING there now.
    You can hear a cough through the walls!)   Then I'd only have to
    do a bunch of patch jobs and paint the walls.
    
      What do you think?
    
      Rick.
    
      

    The sound will still travel through the studs.

    Here are some suggestions:
	1. You could build another wall inside the existing wall (not
	   connected to it) with some kind of insulation between the walls.

	2. You could try talking to your neighbors.  If that fails, you
	   could talk to the landlord.

	3. You could give up and move.

    
    
      Well looking at the price vs performance, I think a new wall in
    four rooms would cost me about 700 dollars. (Off the top of my head.)
    To drive some sort of number against the performance, let's say
    that the double staggered wall would provide me with a soundproofing
    that equals 99, with 100 being the best.   
      To have the insulation blown in and just doing patch jobs, I can
    do it for less than 200 dollarts and probably get a performance
    of 70.  
      In other words, I get the most bang for my buck.  Of course it
    wouldn't be perfect but it would be wonderful considering what is
    there now.
      Back a couple of replies, there was a mention of some new wonderful
    item, any idea what it was?
    
    
      Rick.
    
    

    
    What value does cork have in soundproofing? I see sheets of it
    in the building supply stores, and I remember hearing something
    about it having some sound-proofing value...
    
    Fred

    
    Reflectix is one of those new thine "high-tech" insulations.  It
    looks a little lite foil coated bubblewrap.  It's also pretty easy
    to use.  It's insulating/heat reflection properties have been
    discussed elsewhere in the file. 
    
    Although it is not marketed as a sound-proofing material, I've
    used the stuff in my home, and you'd be *amazed* at how good a
    sound insulator it is.
    
    My advice to the person with the noisy neighbors:
    
    Blown in insulation would help, but it won't completely solve
    the problem.  If you really want to solve it, I would suggest
    taking down the sheetrock, putting in fiberglass insulation,
    then reflectix, folloed by furring strips and new wall board.
    you could do the tear-down and insulation by yourself, and
    have someone put up and tape the new wall-board.  I realize
    this is a little drastic, but it's not much compared to the
    cost of moving or even the cost of nervous breakdown ;^).
    
    -tm
    

      My advice to the person with the noisy neighbors:

      Unless  you can get your neighbor to cooperate -- i.e. not to make
      noise at 1:00 AM -- there's just about nothing  you  can  do  that
      will solve the problem without being prohibitively costly. I lived
      in a CONDO in which the walls between units  were  a  double  wall
      construction with fiberglass insulation. I could stil hear a cough
      nest door -- well, maybe not a real soft cough, but a loud one for
      sure. 
      
      The  only  thing  I  know of which works reasonably in a case like
      this is a masonry wall (cemet block)  with  rigid  inslulation  on
      both  sides  and  then  sheet  rock  on  resiiant channels.  Not a
      proctial retrofit! Not cheap for new construction either. Which is
      why  duplexes  and  row  houses  are build with simple frame walls
      between them.  After all, the whole purpose of a common wall is to
      be less expensive than seperate houses.
      
      So,   if  you  can't  live  with  you  neighbors  your  only  real
      alternative is to move      

    
    
      Funny thing.  Deb and I were getting into the car last Saturday
    morning heading off to Boston.  A large U-Haul pulls into the driveway
    next door.  We sit and watch for a second and just thought that
    her loud friends that were staying with her, all four of them, (who
    were the real offenders, Jen, the neighbor, was alright) were getting
    there own place and things would get back to normal.
    
      We got home at 3:00 and they were completly moved out.   Seems
    that her old boyfriend got out of jail and would be looking for
    her.  She found out on Wednesday night and was gone by Saturday.
    She was okay but a terrible judge in character.  ie; her old boyfriend
    and her loud, creepy friends that lived with her while looking for
    a place round here.
    
      Anyway, revelant to this note is that I am going to shoot the
    walls with insulation.  I found out that I can get the machine for
    free.  The insulation won't cost more than $100.oo.   The hole between
    each stud only has to be 1 inch so I can just tape/mud/paint and
    I am done.
    
      I'll write back when I see how it works.
    
      Rick.
    
    
    

This note looks like the best one for this.


I have recently started playing the Bagpipe which is a great instrument for
the great out of doors.  Unfortunately, some of the neighbors may not agree
(not to mention the temperature).  Playing inside isn't very nice to more
local people (my wife for instance).

So, I'm left in a qunadry, I need to practice with no easy place to practice.

My thoughts are along creating a sound-proof/Sound-dampening enclosure in the
basement in which I can practice.  It doesn't need to be very big, 5' x 10'
x 8' or so.  Also, I'm not looking for some permanent installation, perhaps
something that can be taken down from time to time.  I'm not thrilled with the
idea of spending lots of money either.

What I need information on is materials, setup, and cost.  Looking through
these notes and the notes in AUDIO, it seems that some type of foam would
be the best.  

What material would be best?  What is the cost (about) for the material?
How should the enclosure be built - attached to ceiling and simply hanging
down?  Or does it need to be more rigid than that.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
   Ike

The following is probably much more than you want to get involved with,
but in case it's useful...

I've got a book, The Visual Guide to Building and Remodelling, that has
a section on soundproofing.  It's mostly about soundproofing houses, but
I think the part on floors applies.  The basic idea is that a "floating
floor" reduces sound transmission a lot.  A "floating floor" is a set of 
floor joists that sit on top of (and crosswise to) a set of lower joists,
without any physical attachment between them except at the walls.  Since
they aren't attached, the upper joists can vibrate without passing as much
of the vibration to the lower ones.  Naturally, you fill in between the
joists with sound deadening material.

Speaking of which, I think foam is going to get pretty expensive -- 
beadboard is $5 per 4'x8'x1" sheet.  Consider buying a couple bags of 
cellulose insulation, which fills over 6x the volume for the same price.
Some places that sell the stuff (e.g. HQ) will let you borrow a blower
for free or for cheap.  

For the walls, I'd advise a double studwall approach -- mount the inner
wall covering and the outer wall covering to different vertical pieces
of wood, that don't touch each other.  For the inside wall, I'd think
you'd want that sound deadening ceiling stuff.

There's more in that book -- these are only the parts I remember offhand.
In particular, there's stuff about different wall stiffnesses stopping 
different frequencies of sound.  It's a very good book.

As for non-permanent, well, it could be built modularly.  As for being
inexpensive, well, how much of the sound of a bagpipe do you want to
deaden?  I was in a concert hall once with two bagpipe and an amplified
guitar, and I had to cover my ears.  In a basement, I would think the
effect would be indescribable without a pretty serious insulation effort.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I don't have too much in the way of words of wisdom.  How temporary do you want
this to be?  Like a couple of sheets of beadboard held together with duct tape?

But the thought of you closed in a little cell in your basement practicing 
bagpipes nearly made me fall off my chair.

Paul

    Don't you have a practice chanter?  I wouldn't think the volume of
    a practice chanter would require heroic countermeasures.  Or are you 
    trying to stifle the blast of a full set of pipes in full cry?  That
    may be a pretty tall order.  
    
    Totally off the subject of soundproofing, but related to bagpipes:
    was any other reader at the Fox Hollow folk festival the year the
    bagpipe band played "Scotland The Brave" with the steel drum orchestra?
    The sound was, er, "peculiar"....

    .10:
    
    John, you're welcome to come to my house to practice...
    
    ... my wife could use a night out on a regular basis...	;-)
    
    Dick

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a pair of earplugs or a Walkman for your wife?
:-)  ;-)

Stan

Well, I can see that this is a very light hearted discussion :-)

Some comments or some of the replies:

- Yes, a temporary structure of Beadboard and duct tape would suffice.  Just
  one question, how good is it at keeping the sound down?  Should I try a double
  thickness of it with an air pocket in between to reduce vibration
  coupling?  I'm just trying to figure out if the experiment would be worth
  the cost of the beadboard.  I only want to stifle the chanter part of the
  bagpipe - no drones and I believe I have a fairly small reed for the
  chanter (No WarPipes here, right now - maybe when I get to compeitions).

- Yes, I do use a practice chanter.  I can play that without any problem of
  noise travelling.  Unfortunately, the practice chanter is only useful for
  learning new songs, not learning how to play the bagpipe.  Once the bagpipe
  is learned, then I can use the chanter again.

- In terms of buying ear plugs for my wife, that would be cheaper.  The only
  thing that might prevent that is that I live in a townehouse and do want
  to keep the neighbors happy.

- What is a Bodhran?  And how does it sound with a bagpipe? :-)

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions

    Bodhran = single-headed goatskin drum, approx. 12"-14" dia. x 3"-4"
    thick, held (typically) in one hand so the drum head is vertical,
    played with a double-ended beater held in the other hand.  Used in
    Irish music a lot.  
    (How's that, Dick?  Pretty close?)

>    Totally off the subject of soundproofing, but related to bagpipes:
>    was any other reader at the Fox Hollow folk festival the year the
>    bagpipe band played "Scotland The Brave" with the steel drum orchestra?
>    The sound was, er, "peculiar"....

Yow - I was there about 8 years running, but I don't recall that one. Which
year? Were you there the year we did the Woody Guthrie show on the main
amphitheatre stage?

RE .10

You could take up Irish pipes (Uillean pipes) - they're a lot quieter, and would
sound better with bodhran. Though I don't think it's legal to play "Scotland
The Brave" on Uillean pipes...

    
    	While we're straying from the "serious" question, maybe your
    neighbors would be the happiest if you enrolled at Carnegie Mellon
    University.  I was astonished to read in the paper a few weeks ago that
    CMU has actually created a degree program in bagpipe!  (I can just see
    the look on some parent's face when they ponder paying CMU tuition
    rates (hint, not cheap) for their child to study the bagpipe...
    "$15,000 a year for WHAT???" ;-)
    
    							-craig

    Come practice at my place (assuming you can PLAY the thing) - I really
    like bagpipe musics, and don't get enough of it!
    
    Of course, you'd have to check with my neighbors...
    
    /Charlotte

    Yes, do. Please go to Charlotte's...
    
    ;^)
    
    Edd (known to his neighbors as "the guy that makes all those wierd
    noises")

It's no surprise that CMU offers a degree in bagpiping.  The school colors
are *plaid* and they have piping at all ceremonies.  Carnegie was a Scot.

Hi There -

   Well, I've looked around at the various local builder supply centers.  I've
found the thick `beadboard' under the name of Cellulose Materials.  It comes in
1" and 2" thickness.

   I've also found two other fiber-board materials:

		Sound Deadening Board
		Homosate

	(Homosate is a more dense version of the sound deadening bd).

Does anyone have any experience with either of these materials?  Any 
recommendations, gotchas, etc?

	Thanks,
	   Ike

Homasote is a pressed-paper board.  I imagine it would be pretty good at
sound-deadening, but it also causes problems if there's any moisture around.
I should know, having ripped a bunch of it out of my basement ceiling where
the previous owner had used it as a base for stapling ceiling tiles.
(BTW, if you want some Homasote in the Nashua area, I've got several large
sheets which I'll give you for free if you come pick them up.)

Supposedly, Gypsonite wallboard also deadens sound.

Your best bet is to reduce the sound transmission channels by isolating wall
and ceiling surfaces.  One technique is to use Z-shaped strips which act as
spacers between the studs and the wall/ceiling surface.

				Steve

Hi Steve -

    Yes, I would want the Homasote in the Nashua area - are your sheets full
4' by 8' sheets?  If so, I would like to take them off your hands.

    Just something which you mentioned which confused, what do you mean by:

>> Your best bet is to reduce the sound transmission channels by isolating wall
>> and ceiling surfaces.  One technique is to use Z-shaped strips which act as
>> spacers between the studs and the wall/ceiling surface.

What do you mean by z-shaped strips?

Thanks,
   Ike

Re: .25

The sheets I have are at least 4'x8' - maybe longer.  I'll check and send you
mail.

The strips are called "resillient channels" - you attach one side to the
joists/studs, and screw the drywall into the other side - your wall/ceiling
is now separated from the wood by about 1/2 inch and greatly reduces the
transmission of sound.  I think you can find these at most larger building
supply stores though I've never looked for them.  I made some comments about
soundproofing in note 1959.

				Steve

    .17:
    
    Sounds about right;  you might find a few a bit broader.
    
    I'm told that the name means "thunderer";  judging by some of the
    Scottish (ahem!) recordings I have, they make a good test of
    soundproofing on the low end.
    
    For examples of the two instruments together, check out any album by
    The Tannahill Weavers.  I don't recall if anyone in the group Ossian
    plays the bodhran, but you might check their albums (I think "Seal
    Song" and also "Dove Across the Waters") for a truly wonderful
    combination:  pipes and harp.  (I don't recall which ones, as at least
    album included both Highland and uillean pipes.)
    
    Dick
    
    P.S.  I'm finishing off my cellar;  my offer wasn't entirely in jest.

    
    
    OK, here it is.   Quick, and easy to build.  
    
    Lumber yard......2x3x8's , nails, staples, cellulose
    shipping department......large cardboard boxes and eggshell foam.
    
    build a frame that you can fit in. (dont forget a door openning)
    staple cardboard to 2x3' and line the inside with the eggshell
    foam.  Create a larger box around the small one.  I'd say 1' bigger.
    fill it with insulation.  Cut a hole for a small fan in the top
    to blow air in seeing there might be some hot air generated....:)
    Maybe add a small light as not to keep you in the dark (unless your
    wife has other ideas!).  Take a seat and play you heart out!
    
    For under $50 you should have a happy home!
    
    JD

I just wanted to give people a quick update on this... ah... tongue-in-cheek
discussion of sound proofing.

I have completed the room and it has past the first functional test (read that
as my wife agrees that the sound level is low enough that I can continue to
practice at home.  I think the qualitative test was that the dishwasher was 
louder to her in Living room than the practicing downstairs in the basement.
Without the sound chamber, I could easily make more noise that the dishwasher.

Final construction materials was as follows:

	- I was building this room into a corner of the basement, so I had
	  the following orientation:

			========================#
				+--------------+#	<= concrete wall of
				|	       |#	   basement
				|	       |#
				|	       |#
				+--------------+#
						#
						#
						#

		So, the ciling and two walls of the practice chamber could use
		the existing walls and ceiling for support.  Two walls had to
		free standing.

	- on walls and ceiling (from inside the room to the wall)

	#######################		<= 1/2" Homasote/Sound Deadening Bd
	+++++++++++++++++++++++		<= 1/4" Tempered Hardwood
	    =  =        =  =
	     ==          ==		<= Resilient Channel II

	- Free standing section were made from just the homasote and the
	  tempered hardwood.  These were either leaned against rafter and 
	  secured or hinged (to form a entry/exit way)


Resilient Channel II I think was a great idea.  It isolates the material from
the joists or wall so that you don't have vibration transmission.  I was able
to 8 x 12' sections of RC II for $2.00 a section from Merrimack Construction
Systems (which I recommend for anyone wanting to get building materials).  While
I was there, the person helping me gave me 4 or 5 brochures on sound isolation
which describe ways of cutting down sound transmission - different materials
and different methods abound.


Thanks for all of the input and thoughts (Yes, and even some of the wisecracks)
	Ike

    I live in a row house which was built in the early 1900s and is the end 
    unit of a group of four.  There was an addition built onto all units 
    around 20-30 years ago which is where the kitchen (1st floor) and 
    bathroom (2nd floor) are in each unit.  The soundproofing between units 
    is reasonably good in the original walls, but not that great in the
    addition.  I'm pretty sure the common wall in the addition is a single
    row of 2x4 studs with drywall and pink fiberglass insulation.  There 
    are also water pipes running within this wall which have no insulation.  
    As such, I hear water running whenever my neighbor is using her 
    bathroom.
    
    There is a dropped ceiling in the kitchen, and above it there is access
    to the water pipes (mine AND hers).  I'd like to put foam insulation 
    around them (the pre-molded black stuff), but they go right up against 
    various 2x4s at different places, so getting thick foam around them won't 
    be possible everywhere.  Are there any insulation alternatives? 
    
    I want to do something to the common wall in the bathroom but space is
    at a minimum...I don't want to lose more than an inch or two.  At a
    minimum I'd like to put a second layer of drywall, but ideally I'd like
    to space it out with something in between.  I've read about the
    Z-shaped metal strips in a few notes, but my understanding is that they
    are normally used between the studs and drywall.  Would they be suitable 
    for use between two layers of drywall?  I presume they would add about 1" 
    between the two layers of drywall?  Should I put anything in to fill this 
    space?  Styrofoam sheets maybe?  
    
    One last thing.  The floor, one entire wall, and part of a second wall 
    have ceramic tile.  Would there be any benefit to isolating the floor 
    with the common wall?  Are there any good ways to do this?
    
    Thanks for any help
    
    Mark

    re: .30 and the common bathroom wall....
    
    Here's one thought for you.  Using structural adhesive, glue a 1"
    layer of extruded styrofoam board to the common wall.  Then, using
    the same structural adhesive, glue 1/2" drywall to the foam.
    This ought to de-couple the wall vibration pretty effectively and
    cut down on the noise.  I THINK.  I hasten to add that I have no
    actual data to back up this theory....
    
    I can vouch for the soundness of the glue-the-board-to-the-foam
    business though.  Several years ago I glued extruded styrofoam board
    to my basement walls and glued 1/2" drywall to that, spaced about
    2" up off the floor so the stray bit of water on the floor wouldn't
    get into the drywall.  Even though the sole support for the entire
    weight of the drywall is where it is glued to the foam, it's been
    fine for 8 years or so now.
    
    Be sure to use adhesive specifically designed for glueing foam. Some
    are not, and will dissolve it.
    

    
    I'm looking for a way to reduce the noise to my downstairs neighbors
    when I play piano in my apartment.  It's a grand, so it's big, and it
    reverberates and is loud.  It's in a fairly small room, and the floors
    are wood.
    
    Are there insulating castors that could absorb the sound vibrations
    before they travel through the floor?  I'd like to play more, but I
    want to be sensitive to the neighbors (they're our landlords, after
    all).  If there's no such thing as an insulating castor, are there
    floor coverings that would damp or reduce the vibrations, or would a
    really thick carpet help?
    
    -Jody
    

The vibrations aren't travelling through the legs, so no type of casters will
help.  A thick carpet with a thick pad is about your only option, and it
will help some.

				Steve

    >>The vibrations aren't travelling through the legs, so no type of
    >>casters will help.               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    Yes, they are.  It's true that *most* of a piano's sound comes from the
    sounding board.  However, a certain portion of the vibrations travel
    through the rest of the piono--legs included.  
    
    The best illustration of this effect is a tuning fork.  Hit the tuning
    fork so the tines vibrate.  It makes noise.  Now, put the leg of the
    tuning fork on a piece of furniture and the sound gets louder because
    the vibrations, travelling through the *leg* of the tuning fork are
    amplified.
    
    Now, back to the question:  Steve is correct that casters really won't
    help.  A thick carpet under the piano (including the legs :^) ) will
    help some.  So will drapes, upholstered furniture, etc.
    
    If you are *really* serious about dampening the sound, close the cover
    on the grand and cover the bottom of the sounding board with cotton
    batting, thick cloth, etc.  Of course, the piano will sound very
    muffled, but it won't bother your neighbors quite so much.
    
    Have you talked to your neighbors about the noise?  You might find that
    they actually like it.  Plus, if nothing else, you will demonstrate
    that you are concerned about them.  Can't hurt--particularly if they
    are your landlords.
    
    Chet
             

    Sure - some vibration is transmitted through the legs, but it
    tends to be high frequency and low amplitude so it can in effect be
    ignored.  You would want the legs to rest on the same carpet as is
    under the rest of the piano, though.
    
    Note that some of the sound also travels through the walls and into
    the connecting floor joists.
    
    				Steve

    Along the same lines.....what can I and/or my next door neighboors do
    to help better soundproof our units?  I own a townhouse and the 2
    people on either side of me are renters who like loud music - generally
    I don't mind but there are some Saturday afternoons I liek curling up
    to watch a movie and not listen to the bass and music coming through
    the walls.
    
    I mentioned they rent because they probably can't or won't do anything
    to change the structure of the walls.
    
    Advise or tips please
    Joyce

Heavy wall-hangings are about the only thing one can do in such circumstances,
and they won't help that much.  You might have to resort to listening to
the movie using headphones if you can't convince your neighbors to be more
considerate.

				Steve

    I used to live above another tenent who played music overly loud at
    all hours of the morning.
    
    I made a tape of a tone about 75 cents flat of the low E on a bass
    guitar, layed my speakers on the floor so they faced the apartment
    below, and played the tape whenever the music got too loud.
    
    Low frequencies are omni-directional; you have a hard time locating
    the exact source. The "detuned" E was sure to clash with any recording
    done at concert pitch, pretty much ruining their listening. Even if I
    played my tape at a low volume the flat note was surely audible in
    their apartment.
    
    I moved before it came to blows.
    
    Edd

    Well I don't want to get into audio wars (I'd be at a great
    disadvantage with my little Bose speakers) and I haven't complained -
    yet so I guess I'll wait 'till the next time I see on eof them outside
    and gently mention it.  I don't want to be the 'bitchy' neighboor
    but I do want some quiet at times.
    
    Thansk anyway
    
    Jt