Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    	What is a load of water ?(gallons?)
    
    	Thanks for the info.
    						Al
    

    Don't know. Pool rep. just simply said 3-4 loads for the pool. I'm
    sure I will find out before ordering water. Will let you know then.
    
    -Mat

    When I installed my pool 4 years ago (24' above ground) I called
    the fire department to ask for water. The have an explorer post
    that fills pools. They came out on Sunday and ran fire hose from
    the nearest hydrant (500') and filled the pool that afternoon. The
    total cost was 8 hot dogs, 4 sodas and $9.50 to the water department
    for 13,000 gals. 
    
    _Bill

    		< HELP FOR D.I.Y. POOL INSTALLATION >
    
    	Does anyone have any helpful hints with preparing for and
    installing an ABOVE GROUND POOL (used)??  I bought one for a very
    reasonable price, but have never installed a pool before.
    
    		Thanks in advance
    
    		    GArry

    Where do you live, and who is the lumberyard in the next town that
    you'd like to do business with?
	Prepare a materials list for all of your planned projects. 
    Make it long and complete.  
    Talk to a manager there, and tell him what you told us (what
    you're planning to do and that you want to buy ALL your materials
    there).  Show him the materials list, so he gets an idea that
    you're going to be spending some money.
    It doesn't mean you have to purchase it all at once. 
    Make a good size purchase on the first day so they'll know you're serious.
    He should open an account for you.  If he doesn't I'd look 2 towns
    over.

	The most important item is insuring that the liner doesn't get
	torn. Dig out all sod in the pool area to a depth of about 4"
	and replace with sifted sand. Remove any pebbles which may tear
	the liner.

	Pool installation instructions are available at NAAMCO stores.
	They will also provide you with a list of chemicals needed for
	Spring opening and Fall closing.

	Russ

    I helped install one of these last year...
    Make sure the surface is level, as level as you can possibly get
    it. We used a transit, and it still didn't come out perfect.
    Have several people around to help with the steel shell. Two people
    is *not* enough. A couple of the people will do nothing but hold
    the shell upright while it's secured.
    As previous replies said, the sod has to be replaced with fine sand.
    This has to be banked up on the inside of the shell about 1 1/2
    to 2 feet high (helps distribute the load of the water so that the
    liner doesn't squeeze out under the shell). You may want to get
    all of the sand to the center of the area *before* you get the 
    shell up (guess what we *didn't* do).     -Tom R.

    A few things not mentioned.
    
    All the pools that I have put in, my own and three others - all
    24 foot round - we used 10 people to help support the wall until
    it was secure.
    
    Put padio block under each of the wall supports - helps distribut
    the weight.
    
    Get a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, cut it in half and use it to support
    the wall as you are rolling it out. You should have three people
    to roll out the wall, one to unroll the wall , one to guide the
    wall into the bottom ring and one to move the plywood.
    
    Have a roller handy to roll out the sand after you have spread it
    around. Also wet the sand a little - helps pack it better.
    
    Have a roll of duct tape handy. Use it to tape the wall supports
    to the wall.
    
    Spread out the liner in the sun for a while it will make it easier
    to work with.
    
    Have a package of snap close pins handy to hold the liner to the
    wall while the pool is being filled with water. This will allow
    you to adjust the liner up or down one the wall.
    
    Don't cut the liner for the access holes until the water is up to
    the spot that the hole is to be cut.
    
    Have fun.
    
    dave
    

    If you don't need 220 volts or high amperage service, consider using
    a ground fault OUTLET.  They are much cheaper than grond fault BREAKERS
    and do just as good of job.  Most good ground  fault outlets have
    an "output" set of wires that, if wired correctly can protect anything
    downstream.
    
    Ground fault breakers (especially 220 volt ones) are expensive ($40-$80
    depending on size).  You may also have to hunt around for the right
    kind.  Electrical code requires them around pools, hot tubs, bathrooms,
    etc.  They're a good idea for anywhere that's wet or likely to get
    wet (say lots of NE basements this year).
    
    Steveg

    Garry,
    
    You never told us how big the pool is and what kind of filter
    (cartridge or sand).  Has the pool been taken down already and how
    long ago?  I've seen pool liners dry out after being stored away
    for awhile.  If the pool is still set up, you may want to dig the
    ground away from the pool wall in a few spots to make sure that
    there is no rot below ground level.  When I set up my pool, I removed
    the sod about 6 inches farther out that the pool diameter.  I put
    lawn edging against the pool wall and dug it down to the original
    ground level.  Then 6 inches out I did the same thing.  I then filled
    the 6 inch area in with smooth white stone.  This way, when water
    splashes over the top (if you have kids, there will be splashing)
    it won't eat the ground away and it will keep the ground from rotting
    the pool wall.  They may be alot of work to set up but when the
    real hot weather gets here, they are worth it. 
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s. Are you getting the accesories too? (vacuum, net, etc)

    		-< POOL SIZE IS 20' x 3' ROUND >-
    
    	THANKS FOR ALL YOUR INPUTS/ADVISE.
    
    Presently the pool is being taken down.  The liner is no good and
    I've made arrangements to order another at NAMCO.  ($109.00 w/ a
    20 yr warrenty)  This recent snow is going to delay the effort a
    bit, but thats okay.  Yes, I did get all the accessories that
    went with the pool, as the seller wants nothing to do with a pool.
    I'm not sure what kind of filter I got with it, but I'll check on
    it and reply at a later date.
    
    		Again, thanks for all your D.I.Y. help.
    
    
    				GArry
    
    
    

    Explanation .4 was the best on this installation and one thing
    that is a common practice is to get rid of a used liner...to
    many head-aches come about from them. I found out the hard way too.
    
    It only took three of us to put it up after the hurricane last year
    took it down during the assembly stage.
    
    PS/ Check the weather out to make sure it isn't a windy day !!!
    
    						gfc
    

    Need some help with decisions re an inground pool.
    
    1) Can you recommend reputable contractors in the Greater Maynard
    Area?  
    
    2) Are there any contractors you have had negative experience with.
    I have gotten an estimate from Ferrari Pool and awaiting Aquatech.
                         
    3) Have any of you heard of a Polymerc (sp) filter system?  It is
    supposed to be all filament.
                         
    By the way, I have read all the other notes here about inground pools
    and have already done a fair amount of research on above ground, in
    ground, vinyl, gunite, etc., so no need to repeat all the other advice
    I've read in the conference. 
                         
    Thanks for your help.

I'm in the process of having an Aquatech pool installed.... Give me a call and
I'll fill you in on what to expect. There are alot of 'Extras' to be aware of,\
but they do a quality job (so far).

Bill @ DTN  237-2193 (SHR)

    I need advice on whether to have black or white plaster applied
    in an in-ground gunite pool.  Advantanges of black that I'm aware
    of are...8-10 degrees warmer water, more attractive if you're into
    the pond effect, might hide plaster discoloration.  Disadvantages
    that I'm aware of are...might be more difficult to clean (can't
    see the dirt as easily), may not be able to spot objects on the
    pool bottom.
    
    I haven't seen black plaster except in brochure pictures, so I'm
    concerned there's a reason very few are built.
    
    Any experiences or comments?

    
    I looked at a black pool when i had mine built 2 years ago.....
    after consulting with a landscaper and considering where our pool
    was located, we decided to go with the conventional white.  However,
    in the right setting (kinda woodsy, trees, etc.) the black does
    look real nice.  The owner (Ricky Cuomo) from the store in Salem,
    N.H. told me that he hasn't noticed any difference other than
    appearence.  His pool is 16 feet deep, with diving rocks, shrubs,
    trees, stone patio, waterfall etc. and it is very impressive.  $$$$.
    
    Also, Custom Pools in Newington, N.H. builds all their Gunite pools
    to be self-cleaning.  Its a built-in system, not a "snake" deal.
     Depending on how far along you are, you might want to check it
    out.  Mine works great, and requires little or now maintenance during
    the season, save for an occasional light brushing now or then.
    
    regards,
    ed.
    

    If you are still talking with pool contractors...
    
    You might want to get an estimate from Jim Ivas, at
    Fiber Pools of New England, 471-0091.  His work is
    of high quality, but his prices are low.
    
    - Dave

If you have'nt proceeded with your pool as yet - here's
what you should be aware of and do.

On Gunite pools, expect cost to be above 15K, add your
decking, landscape and fence depending on your area
you could hit 30K.

There is a lot of extras, plus salemen grossly underestimate
costs. Example, for the pool's electric work, Aquatech estimated
850, my actual cost was 1100 plus. 875 covers 70 feet of wire,
extra distance equals extra cost, lights equals extra cost.

When excavation is scheduled, be there, also request that all
participants show up to inspect the site. Pool Designer, Sales,
Backfiller & Grader, Decking personnel, etc. If you have a lot 
of land, have them put it in the most appropriate FLAT area. If
you are land restricted, try for the best flat area possible. 

Aquatech does good work, but they should'nt give customers bull.
If they estimate your pool at 14k, that means 17, 18k.

Also, get them committed to a completion date, after gunite,
which is 90% of the pool cost, they don't hurry back. (At
gunite time they take 90% of the 17 or 18K cost.)

Good luck.

    Good advice.  Actually the Aquatech salesman I had did a good job
    of explaining the extras which included what you have mentioned.
    I do expect $19k for pool, deck, electrical...going with black plaster,
    mostly for heat since I'll get only @ 6 hrs of sun on the pool.
    

    The wife and kids would like a pool and to be perfectly honest I
    would too but in view of the cost I'm not convinced that it's a
    good move and am still wavering.  So how about it?  Would the people
    that have put in pools do it again?  Was it worth it?  What are the 
    disadvantages?  What did it do to your property value?  How much 
    upkeep/maintenance is involved?
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    George

    
    
    	I have an inground pool thats about 8 years old. My 2 boys are
    now 5 and 3 years old and spend as much time as they can in the
    pool. When I first had the pool it was very hard to clean and maintain
    until I was given instruction by people who had pools for along
    time. I was always testing this and that and putting in about 5
    different checmicals until people told me that cholrine would take
    care of just about anything. I vacume the pool once a week which
    takes about 1/2 hour. The more you swim in the pool the cleaner
    it gets due to everyone stirring up the bottom thereby allowing
    the skimmer to pick up the dirt that was on the bottom.
    	If I ever sold my house and bought another one I would have
    another one put in.
    	My pool has a liner and is a 16X32 which cost me $2800.00 to
    have put in. I understand they run about $10,000 dollars now !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    If I had it to do again, yes.  We got a great deal of pleasure from
    our pool which was built above ground.  If you are contemplating
    a move that is the way to go since you can disassemble and take
    it with you.  When I was selling real estate, we found that an 
    in-ground pool was a plus to some buyers and a negative to others. 
    It did not appreciably change property values.  Check with local
    ordinances though, it may change your tax assessment.
    
    We spent about 15 minutes per day (which my children did) in 
    maintenance and about an hour one day per month on the pump/filter
    assembly and occasional patching (done by me).  
    
    Negatives - You need to have a 6-foot stockade fence in the area
    where I live if your pool is deeper than 3 feet.  They are expensive
    and some people find them unattractive.  My husband and I did not
    permit any children in the pool unless one of us was home and I ended
    up staying home a lot more than normal.  We had to restrict it to
    2 friends allowed per child and that sometimes caused hard feelings.
    Unless you keep a lid on it you end up "babysitting" other people's
    kids.  
    
                                   Peg

    It doesn't make sense from a strictly financial and practical point
    of view (but you only go around once, etc etc).
    
    Most real estate agents will tell you that a pool is a negative
    in the New England area.  You won't get your money back, and it
    will make your house harder to sell, on average.  
    
    The 75% (or more) idle time doesn't wash with the expense, upkeep,
    and liability.  Farther south it's a different story (BTW an unheated
    pool might be usable 6 weeks max in a cool summer, like last year
    - my neighbors will vouch for that).
    
    If you want to spend money on a Summer extravagance which sits idle
    most of the year, you are almost better off with a boat - it doesn't
    encumber your house marketability and fancier boats sometimes even
    appreciate. 

    I wouldn't.  I feel it depends on how much you'll REALLY 
    use it.  With a few school-age kids, it might be worth
    the $$$ and trouble.  But if it's just 2 of you, think
    again.  I bought a house last year with a 2 year old gunite
    pool.  Last summer was a joke.  I was working ALOT at my previous
    job and the only consolation was that it rained almost every
    weekend and I wouldn't have gotten to use the pool if I'd
    been at home.  Anyway, we figured out that it cost us in
    excess of $60/swim last summer.  That includes the cost of
    a minor pump repair opening the pool, chemicals for maintaining
    it and having someone close it at year end.  It makes more sense
    to me to take that money and join a health club with a pool...
    it's cheaper and you have it year-round.
    
    Granted, last summer was a bad one.  This year, we have used
    our pool more (my wife is on maternity leave - she uses it
    a few days/week).  I'm not killing myself at work anymore,
    so I get home in the evening early enough to take a dip.
    Also, I'm no longer a novice at pool maintenance and don't
    waste as many chemicals.  
    
    There were several times last year that I considered filling it
    in with dirt and creating a giant terrarium.  Maybe in a few years
    when the kid(s) get old enough to use it, it'll be "nice" to have.
    
    Rob
    

    
    
    	Looking thru the notes on above ground pools I didn't
    	see any reference to the material it is constructed
    	from. This past weekend I was looking for an oval pool
    	and seen aluminum,steel,and copper steel molton mix.
    	Also the width of the supports and top rim varied quite
    	a bit. I am looking for a good quality 15x30 oval.
    	Any suggestions?
    
    				Already thinking of summer
    				Len DiPinto
    
    

    
    	I bought and installed a "Johnny Weismuller" (it's an esther
    Williams with brown panels rather than yellow and white) from 
    Namco which has several stores in New England.
    	The quality of the material was good.  It's aluninum 
    extrusions with about an 8" wide coping on the top with a rough
    finish for a good non-slip surface.
    	If you buy an Esther Williams from a Dealer you will pay
    between 5 and 7 thousand for basic pool installed.  I spent about
    $2800 for a package deal also spending a little more for a larger
    filter.
    	Pools come with various life expectancies depending on the
    material.  Steel is 10 years, zinc coated is 15, aluminum is 20
    etc.  I looked at my pool as a ten year throw away,  although I
    think it will probably last longer than that.
    	I was impressed with Esther Williams and JW quality.  I worked
    for a pool company years ago and felt it was comparable to the
    aluminum ingrounds as far as quality.  My kit went together very
    well.  It was well packaged and there were no missing parts.  The
    plumbing fixtures weren't that great.
    	Namco as a store is very seasonal and has mainly kids working
    there. They're not much help as far as advice goes.  But I did my
    homework and felt that that was the best pool for the money. They
    do have oval shapes also...
    
    	Bruce

    	It's been a long time since a reply was placed in this note
    but I need some info.
    
    	I just purchased a 24' above ground pool. They are doing the
    installation except for the electrical.
    
    	I placed a note in the Real Estate and was forwarded here.
    Can anyone recommend an elctrician in the Manchester, Derry,
    Londonderry area (I live in Derry), fully licensed who can do the
    electrical work at a reasonable price? By reasonable I mean this:
    Under $350? Gad, I had a couple tell me $400+ if I do the trenching
    for the conduit. Sounds high to me. I had a whole 9 room house rewired
    for $550.
    
    Thanks....
    
    Ken

    Re .10
    
    See Note 2008 (Replies .1,.2 & .4) for references in your area.

    We have an old poured-cement-topped-with-block swimming pool in
    our back yard that we have been battling with some three years and
    I think I'm losing the battle this year.  Here's the scoop:
    
    The pool was built 10x16x4 with poured concrete (this was around
    1955).  A few years later it was decided that it was too small and
    too deep, so a shelf was added, making the thing 10x20 and about
    four courses of block were added all around the pool to make the
    depth in the shelf area about 2 feet and about 6 feet in the rest
    of the pool.
    
    The pool went unused for 10-15 years and we opened it up three years
    ago.  Along one of the long sides, the block that had been added
    had migrated in about 2 inches creating an overhang.  I have been
    caulking this and trying to cement it and leakage was kept to a
    minimum (about 1 inch per day).  This year, however, I'm losing
    4 to 6 inches a day and that's unacceptable.
    
    I had considered having a liner made (can you do this?) but think
    I'd still have to do something about that wall movement so as not
    to damage the liner (the wall seems to still be moving very slightly
    - there's no apparent load or tree root behind it!  The ground slopes
    away on the outside and comes up to a foot below the top of the
    block wall, meaning there's only about a foot or two of earth exerting
    pressure on the wall itself.  There are no trees in the area that
    might be pushing inexorably).
    
    Another solution is to apply some kind of compound that will adhere
    to completely fill in the overhang and make for a smooth transition
    between the wall and the poured section - what will stick?  Do I
    have to remove the paint?  I once tried patching cement but fought
    gravity for an hour or so and gave up.
    
    Or maybe there's some special REAL goopy paint-type stuff that I
    can apply to the whole pool?  I paint it every year but am not sure
    that there aren't still 'billions and billions' (ever listen to
    Carl Sagan?) of little holes through which my water migrates to
    freedom.
    
    HELP!
    
    Pete

    Try Hydrolic cement. It's made to patch foundations to keep 
    water out. I guess it could work to keep water in. The cement
    sets up fast, so you shouldn't have problems with gravity. 
    
    
    If you need 25-50 lbs of cement, buy the cement at a brick layers 
    supply. If you only need 10 lbs grossmans sells it in 10lb cans.
    (however approx 3 cans at grossmans cost = 50 lbs at brick layers
    supply cost)
                
    

    Does anyone know of something more along the lines of plastic, maybe
    like an auto body filler?

We had a cement pool when I was a kid, we had leakage problems too, we end up
with a scuba take and blue die, put the die in the suspected leak, if the die
move toward the hole you have a leek, we had some patch that could be used 
underwater.

Give that a try,...also we had the pool installed with out expansion joints,
that why it cracked...we use to cover the pool, then one year we did not...t
hats when the problems a raised.
Neal

    We're close to having a new pool put in and want gunite.  We have
    one price and are surprised that the quote ($16.5k for just the
    pool - everything else brings it up to about $25k) was about the
    same as a friend is paying for a liner pool ($16k, both are 20x40,
    his is rectangular, ours will be free-form).
    
    Whether or not we go ahead, I'd like to solicit comments on the
    three apparently major local players: Ferrari, Aquatech, and McCarthy.
    Anything positive or negative will be appreciated!
    
    Thanks,
    Pete

    Pete,
    
    We are currently enjoying our "Ferrari" pool.  We had a "end of
    season" installation -- completed Sept 30, 1987.  At this point
    in time & with the recent heat waves, I would definitely do it
    again!  
    
    After surveying owners of pools from Ferrari & Aquatech I found
    common negitives & positives.  Many of the "problems" related to
    the owners desire to get things done ASAP to be swimming ASAP --
    an Aquatech owner in Stow: the hole is dug, rebar is installed,
    but it took four weeks for the gunite crew to show up -- almost
    went to court.  The delay issues seem pretty common. Installers
    are up against the weather and order backlog -- terrific summers
    mean plenty of customers competing for installer resources.  I
    choose an end of season installation and avoided the self-imposed
    pressure of "get it done" and as often happens, the installation
    moved right along with no delays.
    
    Other problems seem to be "Design" issues.  How well the design
    on paper becomes reality depends on lots of variables, the ground
    being dug, the guy driving the tractor, the folks who spray the
    gunite, etc.  I learned a lot about the asthetics of pools from
    the crews that came to complete each operation.  Like the "Break"
    of a pool -- the descending portion of the floor -- should be an
    even, gradual effect.  I visited some pools that quickly dropped
    after stepping in the pool, or the quality of the qunite "finish".
    
    After speaking with many owners, I selected Ferrari and leave you
    with an example of Ferrari Cust/Sat.   During the installation I
    decided to change the plans a bit by adding a "raised beam" -- a
    effect that raises a portion of the pool wall creating a stepped
    portion on the deck.  These changes were not communicated to the
    gunite crew.  On gunite day they "formed" the radius steps right
    in front of the raised beam.   So I had a 12" drop from the deck
    to the first step and a regular 6" drop on the remaining steps.
                                              
    They not only fixed the problem -- removed the steps, re-install
    correctly positioned steps, but included a "bench" on both sides
    of the steps at no cost! (note: benchs, swim-outs, etc. are all
    $$$ options when selecting your design.) 
    
    My neighbor (a landscaper who subs for Aquatech) has just completed
    his Aquatech installation and seems quite happy.
    

    re: .11
    
    Thanks very much for the recommendation.  The more I hear, the more
    it sounds like the buyer should exercise normal caution after selecting
    a contractor based on recommendations.  If we proceed, I will draw
    up a payment plan tied to a definite completion schedule.  If they
    won't agree, I'll just forget the pool this summer.
    
    Again, thanks.
    
    Pete

    I too, have heard several negatives about Aquatech's ability to meet
    construction promises.  My pool was built by them before we bought
    the house, and the previous owners complained about how long it
    took.  Another person I know took them to court - and also prevented
    them from removing the backhoe from the property at 5 in the morning
    by showing them his shotgun.  He wanted them to finish the digging
    before moving on to the next sucker, er, uh, sight.  They eventually
    got the pool built, but it was painful.  I don't know anything about
    the other companies.
    
    As to your specifics - I would really think hard before going with
    a free form pool.  Keep in mind how the pool will be used.  Mine
    is free form and it narrows to about 14' about halfway between the
    deep and shallow ends.  The pool looks very nice, but it is impractical
    for two people to swim laps at the same time without running into
    each other or being bothered by the wake from the other swimmer.
    
    Another consideration is whether you intend to use a solar cover.
    Mine had to be cut to the shape of the pool (since it needs to lay
    flat on the surface).  That's fine, except when you want to take
    it off.  It's necessary to fold over the sections in the "fat"
    areas of the pool in order to be able to pull it off.  Also, since
    it is curved at the end where it is pulled off, it couldn't be attached
    to one of the solar cover reels if I wanted one.  It's a pain to
    remove without two people.

    re: note 1205.13
    
     When I purchased my solar cover, it was recommended by another
     pool owner in the store, not to buy a cover reel, for the same
     reasons you describe, tough to reel free-form kidney type pools.
     
     He also recommended cutting the solar cover in half -- across
     the width of the pool.  The pieces butt closely together when
     on the water surface, have no negitive effects on the covers
     ability to contain heat, does not blow off, and best of all
     is very easy for one person to put the two pieces on & off!
    

    
    Friends of mine used Ferrari to build a gunite pool about 5 yrs
    ago. They were having the installation done in the Spring and
    that caused them many delays. They had many shouting matches with
    Ferrari over the schedule delays, but in the end the pool was finished
    on time. They were very satisfied with the workmanship. Have
    recommended them to others.
    

    I used Aquatech and was very happy with the workmanship, quality
    and the appearance of the pool.  They installed in a year ago and
    it took only 30 days.  I think that with any major builder there's
    always the risk of scheduling problems.  I had heard horror stories
    about both Ferrari and Aquatech but had to make a decision.  I liked
    Aquatech's designs better, although I know that with gunite Ferrari
    could have built me the same design.  
    
    Some things to think about......
    
    o Black or white plaster.  I have black and believe it makes only a
    minor difference in the water temperature.  I got it for the looks.  My
    pool looks more like a pond, with natural stone along one length,
    instead of concrete deck. 
    
    o Bromine or Chlorine.  After using Bromine for the end of last season
    and the beginning of this season, I'm ready to switch to chlorine.
    Bromine is over twice the cost although there's less chlorine,
    therefore less skin and eye irritation and less smell. Also, the
    in-line brominator that "came with" the pool is more aggravation than
    it's worth.  It subverts the filter system...that is, the water comes
    into the brominator from the line just before the filter, then leaves
    the brominator and goes into the return line that exits the filter.  I
    was told it has to be this way because of the brominator's water
    pressure requirement.  The effect of this is that you get poorer
    filtration and you have to remember to shut off the brominator when you
    vacuum and when you add earth powder. Then of course  you have to
    remember to turn it back on.  Also, if any filter powder settles back
    into the lines (after the filter shuts off, it has a tendency to go
    back thru the brominator when the filter is turned on.  I'm about
    to switch to chlorine "miser sticks", which are stablized chlorine
    (will dissipate less quickly than non-stablized) and will just be
    throwing a couple in the skimmer basket every week or two.           
                                                              
    o You have to be in control and aware of the scheduling at all times.
    Aquatech's scheduler (Pam) was very helpful and patient with all
    my questions and concerns.  I got lucky with weather, etc. and everything
    went fairly well, all things considered, but I had to be aware of
    everything at all times and be available to the scheduler.  
                                                              
    o Be there when the work is done, if at all possible.  I know this
    is sometimes very difficult but if you are not you run the risk
    of something being done wrong.  I had a problem with where one of
    the returns came into the pool and if I was not there, it would
    have been in the wrong place.  You especially need to be there the
    day of excavation to be sure the pool is in the exact location and
    the elevation is correct.  In spite of me being there, the compressor
    truck (gunite crew) drove over an existing concrete patio deck and
    cracked it in two places.                                 
                             
    o Be prepared for a huge mess and be prepared for some serious
    landscaping when they are done.  I finally decided to hire a landscaper
    to grade, loam and seed and am glad I did.  I would still be out
    there working today.     
                             
    o Consider using the fill that will be removed in order to build
    your pool.  I used it to reclaim some depressed yard space and ended
    up with more usable yard than I had before the pool was installed.
                             
    Good luck..
    

    How do you find leaks in an above ground pool. I have a small
    above ground pool, we have found a few leaks by exhaustive examination
    of the liner below water level. There is atleast one more leak to
    be found. The pool is loosing about 4 inchs of water per day.

    	Any ideas would be appreciated.

    Its a pain to locate leaks, but here goes. Look around the outside
    and see if one area is unusually wet, that may at least give you
    an area to check in the liner. Sometimes, a damaged seam is hard
    to see unless you're right on top of it. With my parent's pool in
    days gone by, when they opened the pool, I found it a good time
    to check out my scuba gear. One hour of air leave you lots of time
    to check the bottom. Maybe you have a scuba diving friend who can
    give a closer examination. You'll have to go over the liner carefully,
    so start with the seams and go from there. Good luck.
    
    Eric

    
    Check with your local pool contractor/supplier. I believe a method
    they use is to squirt a little dyed water into the pool near a
    suspected leak area and watch where it sucks out.
    
    

    We have an inground pool, so I am not sure what I am about to say
    applies to an above ground one.  If you are losing about 4" of
    water a day, I would say that the liner is not the whole problem.
    (I would think that if you were losing that much water, the holes
    in the liner would be pretty much apparent.)  When we were losing
    we found out that we had a crack in our lines.  The way that the
    pool company determined where the cracks were was by using something
    similar to a metal detector with earphones (except they were listening
    for water leaks.)  After 2 seasons of losing water due to cracked
    lines, my husband finally replaced all the lines.  Have your lines
    checked out by someone.  Good luck!

I second the notion to check the lines.  Beyond that, don't refill the 
pool, and let it drain until it stops.  When it does, the leak will be 
at the top of the new water level.

    I've got a black plaster gunite swimming pool that's one year old
    this month.  My problem is that it appears that the plaster is
    beginning to deteriorate, especially in the deep end around the
    drain and the hydrostat relief valve.  I've called in Aquatech (the
    builder) and have been watching the water balance closely.  The
    water balance has been fine.  Aquatech will be coming out to take
    a look at it soon.
    
    Anyone else had this problem before?  

    There is a sealer used in the marine industry that might help.
    It's called Glu-Vit.  I have used it to seal cracks in the concrete
    in my cellar with good results.  In my opinion, it's much better
    than hydraulic cement for repairing cracks.  It comes in several
    shades , basically gray.  Manufacturer claims it can be painted.
    
    You can buy it at most stores that sell marine supplies.

    I need to PERMANENTLY close my inground pool. It is constucted of concrete
    side walls plus the patio area.
    
    I would like to remove the patio and dump into the hole. I also
    need to push the side walls in. I have considered renting a backhoe,
    and do the work myself. I have never driven any heavy equipment
    before. 
    
    I talked to one rental store. They will deliver a backhoe with sixteen
    foot arm for $225. per day. The backhoe is on tracks.
    
    Is this the right equipment for this job? Is there a place near
    Hudson that will deliver and pickup for a cheaper price? Any other
    suggestions?
    

    
    Only you can figure out the answer to the first question that should
    crop up - will this thing FIT inside?
    
    Backhoes are great for reaching out (like in pushing in a wall or
    scraping in the patio) BUT require quite a lot of heigth er up and
    down space.
    
    A relatively small, maybe cheaper option might be an electric jack
    hammer to break things up and a 'BOBCAT' to do the pushing.
    
    Don't ask me where to get em - I live in Minnesota and the travle
    charges would kill ya!
    
    

    Why do you want to fill your pool with a patio?  I can appreciate
    the savings you achieve on chlorine and other pool chemicals, and
    the secondary savings of not having to feed and "water" all those
    summertime friends.
    
    Seriously, why do you want to close your pool permenantly?  
    
    And, do you have any pool equipment you'd like to get rid of?
    
    BC 
    

    
    	To continue the thought in .2; have you considered the option
    of installing a patio above the pool but leaving the pool in place?
    Not only would that be easier (maybe...) than ripping out the pool,
    it does give you (and the next owner) the option of going back to
    the pool easily.
    
    							-c

    The pool is a vinyl liner pool. It is constructed of concrete side
    walls and foam between the walls and liner. The slats or whatever
    they're called are rotted and won't hold a liner. The liner is ripped
    beyond repair. The pool is over 15 years old. The kids have all
    grown and moved on. It would cost more $$ to repair the pool than
    it originally cost to install. 
    
    I am interested in removing the patio area around the pool, as well
    as filling in the pool. I would like to get back to lawn. I really
    don't want the expense, or spend the time to maintain the pool,
    even if it were in good shape.
    
    Bottom line -
    
    THE POOL GOES!!
    
    I have the diving board, and the original pool pump. The filter
    itself was a filter bag filter, and really wasn't that good. I also
    have the stainless steel ladder and a stainless steel rail for the
    stairs. If anyone could use the above mentioned, make me an offer.
    
    re: a previous reply;
     I have considered using a jack hammer but felt the backhoe would
    do the job easier.
    

    
    	I have rented these machines before.  They are not too bad,
    but I'm not sure if it will be strong enough to pull in the walls
    of the pool, depending on how thick the walls are and whether they
    are reinforced or not.  I found that it was excellent for moving
    rocks (even some good sized ones), and digging in semi-soft dirt
    and gravel, but when it came to pulling roots; forget it.  I 
    couldn't even pull 2 inch roots without working around the outer
    edges first, breaking up the ground, and then pulling them out.
    This is why I question whether it will be able to pull the walls
    of the pool in, although I suspect without water to hold them back,
    the walls may not be as strong as one would think.
    	The price is consistent with what I paid, if fact I paid $230
    back in early '87, from a place in manchester.  One catch to look
    out for is delivery.  I believe most of them only deliver free
    within 15 miles of their business.
    	One word of warning.  The machine is easy to use, but make sure
    you wear the safety belt.  It may be small but it's no toy and I
    found out the hard way that the belt was there for a reason.

    Have you priced contractors ??  I could imagine a big backhoe being
    much better for the job.  You may be able to rent a small one for
    $230 /day but it may not do the trick.  I can't imagine a backhoe
    taking more than an hour under a skilled operator and would probably
    be just as  cost effective.

    RE:5
    My concern was whether it would be strong enough to lift the poured
    concrete around the pool(patio). I thought the walls would be the
    easiest. I only need to knock them down a foot or so. I just don't
    want a lump in the yard after.
    
    re;6
    No I haven't checked contractors. You make a good point. I will
    call someone. I will check the keywords for contractors for
    recommendation.

    if i were you, i'd go the jackhammer/backhoe route.  i'd rent the
    jackhammer first, and break up the concrete fairly well.  i'd then
    have all the fill/loam you're going to need delivered fairly close
    to the pool.  then i'd rent the bobcat, push in the pool, and push
    in the fill/loam.
    
    i've used the bobcat before and it's pretty good for pushing things
    around, but i don't think it would be too good for breaking things
    up.
    
    i've had loam delivered and shoveled it out by hand, knowing that
    it wouldn't be worth renting a bobcat for 5 minutes worth of work,
    and spending the better part of a saturday spreading loam by hand.
    
    the jackhammer should be a cheap rental.  i'd line up EVERYTHING
    you'd want the bobcat for (any large rocks need moving?) and rent
    it just for one day.
    
    bs

    I would STRONGLY suggest having a backhoe contractor do it for you.
    Last year I put in a garage. I contracted out the backhoe work.
    They showed up with as big a backhoe as was needed (it was their
    choice based upon job) and worked for 4 hours...total $350.00.
    
    I could have had them do ANYTHING during that 4 hours! Infact, the
    garage foundation work only took 2.5 hours so I had him spend the
    next 1.5 hours digging up old stumps and burying them back deep
    in the ground.
    
    Remember: It will probably cost you about the same amount of
    money after you add up the rental of jack-hammer and backhoe.
    It is YOUR TIME at stake as well- you seem to be a little concerned
    about your 'backhoe' operator abilities as well. After you did
    get the patio into the pool and the walls knocked down, you would
    have to bring in the loam and do the work yourself to level it out.
    
    BOTTOM LINE:
    Go with a contractor and have the fill and Loam delivered towards
    the end of his/her 4 hour slot (that you will pay ~$350 for)
    IT will be done PROPERLY by someone else in 4 hours or less.
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    I agree with others that choice number one should be get a contractor.
    
    Also whether you contract or rent a minicat have all the partsfor
    the job either on hand or delivered on the target date.
    
    Taylor rental in Hudson Ma. has the minicat. I am renting it this
    weekend. They will deliver in my driveway in Stow, between 3-5 pm 
    Saturday, give lessons on how to use it and pick it up between 
    0700-0900 Monday. Total cost - $238.40. I am not knocking anything
    down just moving about 40 yards of sand and stone. (actually some
    are rather like small mountains 8*!) I will post the results and
    my feelings about the unit and the company next week.
    
    Steve (who is trying to fill in the Snake River Canyon in his back
    yard)
      

    
    
    
    	Have you checked if what you plan on doing is legal? I remember
    reading last year in the Leominster Ma. newspaper that the
    Montachusetts Regional Transportation Authority wanted to bury some
    old concrete on their property as fill. The Mass DEQE said something
    about concrete being a 'hazardous material' and wouldn't let the
    MRTA bury the stuff. I never did hear what the final resolution
    was.
    
    Jim H.
    

    re: .11
    
      I believe you are referring to asphalt which is petroleum based.
    
    
    -Jim
    

    
    RE: .11 and .12
    
    I, too, thought that using asphault (but not concrete) as fill was
    not allowed.  But a ton of it is being buried accross the street
    from me, just up hill from a river.  Worse yet, people are building
    right in front of it, just 30 feet from the road on a lot that can't 
    be even 1/4 acre (we have 1 acre zoning in our town).  Amazing!
    
    --tm
    

    RE: .11
    I don't think burying concrete is a problem. Its a good point though.
    I am trying to contact a contractor to get a price. I'm sure they'll
    let me know if I,m doing anything illegal.
        

    RE: .14...
    
    	Most smaller contractors will NOT always know (or care) if you are doing
    anything illegal as 'laws' change from town to town. If you say
    'do xxx' they will probably do it. Ask the town's building inspector
    'just to be sure'.
    
    Mark

    
    
    Well 16 hours later my back yard is now ready for landscaping, paving
    and furnishing.
    
    The Minicat that was delivered was actualy a CASE model 1035 UNI_LOADER
    operation is real simple, hand levers for left and right side drive
    to the wheels, both bars forward you go forward both back you go
    back. to turn push on forward and pull one back. bucket is controlled
    by handles on the levers. One very important point ___---___ WEAR
    THE SEAT BELTS___---___. the thing has a tendency to buck and bounce
    if you move too fast or go over big hills anp rocks. it is noisy,
    ear plugs migh thelp and it vibrates like crazy. But boy can you
    move some dirt. All in all it was worth the money.
    
    BTW- Robinson Taylor Rental in Hudson, MA. has the next larger
    UNI-LOADER model 1045 and they have a combination loader/backhoe.
    The backhoe rents for ~$300 a day. 
      
    
      

    The problem turned out to be scale developing over some of the trowel
    marks.  I bought a scale brush and the marks that appeared to be
    deterioration have been removed.

    After the first year with black plaster I believe there to be very
    little difference in the water temperature between white and black
    plaster.  The black may be two or three degrees warmer.....maybe!
    With about 6.5 hours of direct sun, my black plaster pool hit 87
    degrees at the hight of the heat wave.  
    
    The primary benefit as I see it is the appearance.  In a natural
    setting, the pool can look more like a pond or lake, if you're into
    that.  All other factors appear to be nearly equal.

    Oh..there is one other thing to consider with black plaster.  The
    plaster will not remain black.  It will fade unevenly over time.
    This is not necessarily bad because it looks more natural if it
    is not a consistent black throughout the pool.  In addition, any
    scaling or scratches are more visible with black.

    Concrete is not hazardous material it is inert by most reasoning
    asphalt is viewed differently and is considered hazardous why I'm
    not real sure.
    
    -j
    

    I am new to New England and is doing my house hunting now.  I never
    own any swimmimg pool before and would like to know is that pratical
    to own a house with in ground pool here?  How much job need to be
    done to maintain the pool? How you maintain the pool in the winter
    time? Shall I better off stay away from the pool here?  Any comments?
    

    Hello, David!  Talk to Alice Dipace (CADSYS::DIPACE); they have
    a big swimming pool, and she will be able to give you some practical
    pointers on how much of a chore it is to take care of.  I wouldn't
    bother with one myself, since I do not like to swim in chlorine
    much (I prefer salt water).
    
    /Charlotte

    I inherited an above-ground pool with the house I bought.
    Unfortunately, the pool is situated under and surrounded by two
    maple trees, a mock orange tree, and a few other interesting and
    pretty, flowering trees. Consequently, things drop from it practically
    all year: blossoms drop in the spring, bugs drop in the summer,
    leaves drop in the fall. 
    
    Other than a tiring problem of constantly cleaning it, I enjoy have
    a pool. And, once I got the hang of taking care of it - it is simple
    to maintain. It all depends on how much time/money you want to spend.
    

    	With the heat we had this summer I used my pool alot to cool
    off and I find it was more enjoyable than waiting in 2 hour traffic
    to get to a beach.  
    	

    I bought a house about two years ago with an above ground pool.
    I love it! It makes for great entertaining in summer. Serves as
    a good excuse to invite friends and family over for barbeques.
    	I think an inground pool would be slightly easier to maintain
    and plan to look for one in my next house.
    	I really don't mind the extra work. If you keep the chemicals
    in the pool properly balanced the pool almost maintains itself.
    I open my pool just before Memorial day and close it at the end
    of September. I vacuum it once a week (1/2 hour). I don't have any
    trees close enough to drop many leaves into the water unless we
    get quite a blow. I would beware of a pool with trees too close
    though.
    	Pools are an added liability! You must maintain fences, and
    lock up access to prevent young children from using it unsupervised.
    Let me repeat that another way. *NEVER LET CHILDREN SWIM WITHOUT
    ADULT SUPERVISION!!!!* I don't care how well you think they can
    swim! There are many cases of near drownings that lead to *PERMINANT
    BRAIN DAMAGE* in the victims.
    	Pools tend to have no effect in house prices. ie: if you install
    a pool for $10k it will not add $10k to the price of your house.
    	Should you buy a house with a pool? Depends on you, your family,
    and your lifestyle. It is one more thing to maintain, and it is
    an added (but manageable) liability. I love having pool. I am also
    an excellent swimmer (former lifeguard, WSI certified), and have
    a healthy respect for water. I think the hassles of pool ownership
    are outweighed by the benefits.
    
    	regards,
    	Mark
    

    re .4
    I would like to suggest that a pool, inground at least, would actually
    decrease the resale value of the property.  If not lower, it would
    at the very least decrease the number of possible buyers, which
    would keep the house on the market longer, which would probably
    lead to a lowering of the price.
    
    Ed..
    

    Thanks for all the info I got from you people.
    I have decided not to buy any houses with a pool here.
    I like swimming, but don't think its pratical to own a pool here.
    Thanks again.
    
    David
    

    re: .5
    
    I (respectfully) disagree.  I don't think that a pool DETRACTS from
    the value of a house (in ground, at least), though I don't think
    that it adds much either.
    
    So, if you want a pool, you can buy a house in New England with
    a $10-20K inground pool and get it for (practically) NOTHING!  The
    house will sell for "about" the same as the same house on the same
    lot without the pool.  However, because of that, it is a "bit" more
    attractive and will probably sell BEFORE the identical house down
    the street, without a pool, selling for the same price.
    
    When you go to sell the house, since you did pay nothing for the
    pool, you can play the same game...charge the what the house without
    the pool is would be worth and expect it to move a bit faster.
    
    Obviously, this should tell you something about the merits of ADDING
    an inground pool...the money spent will NOT be returned when the
    house is sold.
    
    The actual benefits of owning a pool is really a matter of personal
    preference and lifestyle.
    
    A-former-pool-owner-but-not-a-pool-user,
    John
    

>    I (respectfully) disagree.  I don't think that a pool DETRACTS from
>    the value of a house (in ground, at least), though I don't think
>    that it adds much either.
    
My folks were in the real estate business when I was growing up, and the 
word among realtors is that a pool decreases the value of a home.  Not 
levels it out -- decreases.  That is to say, if you have two houses 
exactly the same except one has a pool and the other doesn't, the one 
without is more likely to sell. (So the one with has to cut their price 
to attract a buyer.)  Such are the breaks.  Same thing goes for fancy 
landscaping -- you have to cut the price to make people take it.  It's a 
funny world.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    
    I agree with .5 and somewhat agree with .7.  I owned a house with
    a large inground pool (20 x 45) and when came time to sell a few
    of the prospetive buyers didn't want the hassle and expense and
    the responsibility of owning a pool.  .7 is correct in that we priced
    our house the same as if the pool was not there and still had a
    difficult time selling.   I now belong to a club and use their pools
    and let them spend the time cleaning etc... and I'll just cool off
    in it.
    
    
    	Don
    

The problem with a pool is a bit different than other features in that 
you can't ignore it.  I.E., if a house has a hot-tub, and you weren't 
into hot tubs, than you buy the house and leave it alone.  But a pool 
requires maintenance.  If (like when my wife and I shopped last year), 
you're not a pool person, you don't want to deal with the pool, and 
you won't buy the house.

its also true that we didn't see a markup for houses with pool.

    Besides not being able to ask more for the house because it has
    a pool, one also runs into the problem of limiting the market.
    As a person who has just been looking at properties and finally
    bought, I did not consider any place with a pool because we have
    a baby due this month and there are four nieces and nephews under
    the age of five who visit all the time....just too much risk of
    finding one of them floating face down in the pool---no matter how
    careful and how many safeguards---kids seem to find ways to get
    around things.
    	At least this is my admittedly "over protective view" of owning
    a pool.
    Ric

    I have an above ground pool that serves two purposes where I live.
    Being in the country any water pond or pool serves as a draft sight
    for the fire dept. My pool and several more in the neighborhood
    have been marked as draft pools. When I had my house reappraised
    early this year, I asked about the pool....the appraiser said since
    it was a draft area.....it added value. We do not have city water
    so it appears to be an asset. I hope that it never has to be used
    other than to swin in....but I'll gladly keep it to save lives and
    property.
    
    Jim

    re: -x
    
    Hmmmm.  Interesting.
    
    Maybe I DO live in a different world (lots of folks have suggested
    that in the past!).
    
    When I sold my house, it appeared to be more attractive to prospects
    BECAUSE of the pool...never heard anyone say, "...if it wasn't for
    the pool...".
    
    I never WANTED a pool, but did buy this house with the pool...the
    house was what I wanted and a pool seemed like it "could" have as
    many benefits as drawbacks (didn't turn out to be the case for me).
    I'd still buy another house with a pool, IF I liked the house.
    
    Finally, I was REALLY surprised to hear the comment about NOT buying
    a house with a pool due to children...most folks that I know who
    BOUGHT and INSTALLED a pool themselves did so FOR their children!
    
    But, then again, I may live in a different world.   Guess it just
    depends on your own personal experiences (my sister and entire 
    family LIVES for their pool, and they've had it for some 10 years
    now).
    
    Oh well,
    John
    

re .13:

>     When I sold my house, it appeared to be more attractive to prospects
>     BECAUSE of the pool...never heard anyone say, "...if it wasn't for
>     the pool...".

I assume the pool was mentioned in your listing?  If so, folks like me
probably didn't even come.  The only house with a pool that I looked at
was a 10 room house for the price of a 5 room house.  It turned out the
5 extra rooms were a failed attempt to convert a ranch to a cape, so I
still didn't say "if it wasn't for the pool" -- I had other reasons.

>     Finally, I was REALLY surprised to hear the comment about NOT buying
>     a house with a pool due to children...most folks that I know who
>     BOUGHT and INSTALLED a pool themselves did so FOR their children!

But not for their pre-shcool children, I'll bet!  More like teenagers and
pre-teens.  

>     But, then again, I may live in a different world.  

Nothing wrong with that -- and it's a world you share with lots of people.

I would guess that a pool is a net asset in an area where it can be used
at least 3 seasons of the year.  But when I told my realtor that we didn't
want to consider houses with pools, she replied that she heard that from
lots of people.  So I'm willing to believe that a pool is a liability in
New England.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

      I  have heard is said that while pool does increase the value of a
      house it also limits the marketability of the house.  Some  people
      love pools; others regard them as a maintenance headache or even a
      safety hazard.  And as with so many "home improvements" you seldom
      if ever get back at sale time the cost you put in.
      
      Hence I believe that the decision to pool or not to pool should be
      based on personal preference and finance.

    Interesting notes! While I accept the notion that a pool might limit
    the marketability of a house -- I think the generalization of a pool 
    detracting from the price of houses to be unfair.  Like all things
    in the housing market, what increases/decreases market price is
    unique and individual to each house.
    
    A house with aboveground pool and chainlink fence VS custom gunite
    pool, custom fence and landscaping, adjoining outdoor living areas
    -- decks,patios VS all other variations . . . are the factors that
    determine whether a pool will increase/decrease the market value
    of a home.
              
    Kids & Pools -- My 4 year old and six year old now swim like fish
    after "living" in the pool this summer.  They were main factor in
    pool decision.
    
    

    	Does anyone have experience with indoor lap pools?  I've been
    told that many builders (Acorn, for instance) will not touch them
    due to past problems.  I'm thinking it can be done by:
    1. Using a pool cover, except when being used.
    2. Hermetically seal off the pool area from the rest of the house.
    3. Install a large dehumidifier with ducting to whole pool area.
    
    ASHRAE Guide has a estimation for moisture release to the air -
    for a 40'X6' pool at 80 deg with 75 deg air, it comes out to 5 lb/hr,
    a moderate sized dehumidifier.
      Anyone know about latent heat recovery systems? Will I have to
    ventilate using outside air during winter?
      wanting to swim year round - Chris

    I look forward to replies to this question because I'd like to swim
    year round too!
    
    To get started, however, I can give a tiny bit of input.  My father-
    (not yet)-in-law has a lap pool in Florida in a screened in "room".
    (Of course the moisture problems are obviated this way.)
    
    The pool has a solar heater and a plastic cover which is positioned
    by hand (I think) whenever not in use, both to conserve heat and
    reduce evaporation (and to minimize junk blowing in through the
    screens.)  
    
    My folks had friends in Michigan (same climate as New England) which
    they enclosed.  It was still obviously an "addition" and not part
    of the house, but it worked for them.  
    
    I'd THINK you'd be best off treating the wall between the pool and
    the house like an outdoor wall for sealing and insulation.  Greenhouse
    glass might be nice around a small pool.  You'd want to avoid serious
    heat leaks both because of the cost of heating the pool and for
    personal comfort, but I'd think that the Pool Room might not have
    to be AS insulated as the rest of the house.  In fact serious sealing
    of a place that moist seems like it would promote mildew.
    
    If I'm remembering right (I don't promise) there was an issue of
    Metropolitan Home a few months ago (like maybe September???) that
    featured adaptations for the handicapped.  One example was an indoor
    lap pool/jacuzzi for a wheelchair user.  It had special "rocks"
    positioned as "stepping-seats" so the guy could move from the chair
    to the pool and back, while still looking nice.  I don't remember
    much about the setting (room) but it might be one place to find
    some ideas.
    
    Keep us posted if you do this!
    
    Sherry
 
   

    How long an indoor lap pool are you planning?  For serious minded
    swimmers, 75 feet is regulation length, 60 feet is passable, and
    anything less is a frog pond.  
    
    Let us know what costs you determine. Maybe you could help defray costs
    by charging admission to folks who like to swim. 
    
    	Marlene, a serious swimmer (well, sorta)
    
    
    

    Sounds like   a  big  dehumidifier  to  me.  5  pints/hour  =  120
    pints/day. Most of the home dehumidifiers I've seen are well under
    half  that. (My basement has a 28 pint/day unit, which does pretty
    well.)

--David

    This file certainly reveals the diversity in choice of lifestyles!
    Being a pool owner I've learned the following things:
    
    1.  If you think it would be great to come home from work after
        a hot drive home, put on your suit and have a swim while the
        charcoal is burning than maybe a pool is for you.
    
    2.  If you like swimming but do not like the hassles of packing
        the car & driving to the beach & fighting the crowds (some people
        live for this :-)) than maybe a pool is for you. 
    
        2.1  After a pleasant day at the beach (I really like the beach
             and wish I lived within walking distance) you have to pack
             up and drive home.  I just dry off & do step six.
        
    3.  As one who subscribes to the above I feel the benefits of having
        a pool far outweighs the potential hassle of waiting an extra
        month or so when it comes time to sell the house.   There are
        more  and more pools popping up so I can't believe there's that
        big a shortage of potential pool-loving home-buyers. 
            
    4.  I do not like to swim in chlorine either, so I add chemical
        at night (using the correct chemicals & amounts is also a key;
        dipping into the 100 lb. container of Acme Pool Stuff doesn't
        make it) so my eyes don't burn the next day.
    
    5.  It takes a season or two to get the feel of how the pool reacts
        to the environment so you know when to add more chemical or
        a power pill, etc.
    
    6.  Normal upkeep is low; I add a little chemical every other night
        (every night if humidity (e.g.) is high.  We have a solar cover
        which allows us to open a week or so before Memorial Day.  It
        also keeps the water temp up during those crummy summer days
        we seem to be having lately and lowers the amount of chemical
        required.  It takes me 5 min. to add the chemical & 10 min.
        to throw on the solar cover (when needed).  I vac every other
        day (paranoia due to the water being so clear), empty strainer
        & backwash; this takes 30 min. and helps my tan.  (I actually
        find it relaxing; work w/o heavy thought!.)  
    
    7.  The biggest jobs are the closings & openings, taking a full
        day to do it.  The only out-of-season work I do is drain the
        cover after a heavy rain (gravity & the garden hose does most
        of the work) and I remove the leaves prior to freezing (less 
        water & leaves on the cover make the spring opening *much*
        easier).                                       
    
    8.  The pool helps me work off the effects of the almost-nightly
        cook-outs.  ;-)                  
    
    9.  It isn't that big a hassle to lock the gate.  You lock your
        *house* when you leave it.  As for accidents, you set your guests
        ground rules; just as there are Laws it is up to the individual
        to adhere to them.  From what I've heard, most pool drownings
        of children occur when adults are not supervising; rarely have
        I heard of a child climbing fences and falling victim to a
        closed pool.  Responsibilities do come with a pool but they
        are not overwhelming.
               
    What it boils down to is how you feel about having a pool and how
    much you think you'd use it and the "commitment" to shoulder the
    responsibilities.
    
    							Don
    
        
    

    
    
    	I recently installed an inground pool. I would like to know
    what type of alarm is used to warn us if anyone is in the pool.
    Any suggestion or comments?  Thanks in advance..

      I recently saw a device in a magazine that floats in the water and
    sounds an alarm to a remote speaker if someone (child) falls in the
    pool. I suppose it could be used to hear intruders also but it probably
    would need a lot of batteries if used all the time. 
    
    Ted
    

    
    put a live electrical wire into the water, when someone jumps in
    your lights will dim !
    
    ace
    

    or.....what about allegators??????

    justme....jacqui    

    RE. .1
    
      This devise is a water motion detector not a hearing device.
             

    
    Is it safe to leave the pool cover on all day? IF not, what might
    happen? Will bacteria form in the pool...thanks in advance...HH
    

    The ones I've seen for sale, do not draw any power until they're
    trigered.  Once the water motion exceeds the pre-set limit, a switch
    closes, and sets off the alarm (both audible and remote).  
    
    I got a loaner from the company who put in my pool, and a few
    draw-backs became evident.  I keep the solar cover on the pool when
    it's not in use, so the only open water available in which to float
    the alarm is where the stairs.  This is OK most of the time, but
    I have found the alarm under the cover a couple of times.  The real
    problem is that I run the filter more when the cover is on, and
    it seems that the open water near the stairs has a lot more movement
    than when the cover is off.
    
    So, to get around the false alarms caused by the filter/cover
    combination, I lowered the sensitivity.  Guess what I found one
    morning?  I had a dead, bloated, smelly skunk under the solar cover
    and a very quiet alarm.  In fact, when I retracted the cover and
    fished the skunk out of the pool, (all this a 6:30 AM), that's when
    the damn alarm went off.
    
    I gave the alarm back to the pool company, and since then, they've
    stopped carrying them.
    
    My neighbor let me use his vaccuum "robot" during the time I had
    the alarm.  The hose to the vaccuum bumped into the alarm and set
    if off in the middle of the night.  
    
    
    The fear that someone will get/fall into the pool when you're not
    looking is one of the two things that makes me nervous about pools.
    I've got a 6' stockade fence, gates that can only be opened from
    the inside of the pool area, life rings, warning signs, CPR training,
    an umbrella liability policy, etc, but I never think the pool is
    without some risk.
    
    ....but, there's nothing like having one in the middle of July.
    
    BC
    

    I leave mine on when the pool isn't being used, and the water temp
    is below 80 degrees.  Algae can build up for any of a billion reasons,
    and the cover is one of them.  I find that if I keep the Cl where
    it is supposed to be that the cover is not a problem.  
    
    All you need is a day or two when the chlorine level is low, and
    there's a lot of sun, and the water doesn't get agitated and WHAM
    it's green-city.
    
    What has helped me is a calendar.  I test the pool every day, and
    write the CL and pH down.  I also plan ahead and keep track of
    treatments like shocking, etc.  I use and automatic chlorinator,
    and also make note of the its settings and the temp of the water.
    The five minutes a day to monitor the pool really pays off.  Like
    I said in your earlier note, there's nothing like having a pool
    in the middle of a hot summer, unless your pool is full of green
    water.
    
    I also feel that the water in the pool was pretty expensive (approx
    $750) and that protecting that investment is worth it.
    
    
    Did you get a reel for your solar cover????
    
    
    BC
    

    Depending on what form of chlorine you're using, you will
    probably find it's easier to keep Cl levels up with the 
    pool cover ON.  Sunlight, wind (air movement), evaporation,
    etc. all have an effect on Cl level.... they make it go
    DOWN.  Having the cover on doesn't eliminate all these,
    but it sure makes it easier to handle things!
    
                              - Ed -

    I had some experience in pool maintenance working as a lifeguard 
    at a community pool, and at present own a pool myself. The most 
    important thing that I have learned is KEEP THE PH AT THE CORRECT LEVEL!
                                              
    	Chlorine does not work well if the ph is off. Most, if not all
    pool stores will test a sample of your pool water, and tell you
    exactly what you need to add. (algicide etc...) It's fast, its easy.
    
    	I keep the a floating dispenser charged with chlorine and pay
    the most attention to the ph level. The chlorine tends to run high
    but with the ph balanced I've *never* had complaints from my guests
    about smell or burning eyes. In fact my water sparkles all summer.
    
    	I wouldn't worry about a pool cover causing more algae as long
    as your chemical levels are up to snuff.
    
    
    					Mark
    

    This month's Consumer Reports describes two pool alarms.  They didn't
    seem to think either was that great.
    
       Mitch

    Re: .3 on smell, etc..  
    
    I suggest that your lack of "chlorine smell" is BECAUSE of
    the chlorine level being high.  My experience with a large
    (indoor) pool bears this out.  People would comment on the
    "chlorine smell", and the Pool Director would have the
    chlorine turned DOWN.  The smell would increase....
    
    At a two-day training course I went to, I found that the
    "chlorine smell" comes not from chlorINE, but chlorAMINES,
    that get formed when chlorine does its job, and combines
    with some organics...   To get rid of the chloramines, 
    chlorine needs to "gang up" on chloramine about 3 to 1.
    Sound familiar?  I've heard the procedure called "shocking"
    the pool....  I used to pour a (relatively) large quantity
    of hypochlorite into the circulation system, open windows,
    and turn on several large floor fans, aimed over the water
    surface.  The "chlorine" smell was horrible!  (For a couple 
    of hours, at least....)  A couple hours before the pool was
    to opoen in the morning, I would measure chlorine levels,
    and "kill" the excess (by pouring something else into the
    circulation system....) and bring levels back to where they
    should have been.  My water was clear, nobody burned their
    eyes, and nobody complained about the "chlorine smell".  
    
    I understand that churning up the water surface speeds the
    "driving out" of chloramines....  my fans would circulate
    the air faster, but you, with an outdoor pool, have natural
    air circulation AND some water action.  Small wonder you've
    got the chloramines out.... and keeping the chlorine level
    up does help keep them out....
    
                                      - Ed -

    Anyone have opinions as to whether it is more effective to leave the
    solar cover on or off in the daytime, when the temperature is higher
    than the water. 

    Using logic I would think that the solar cover is insulating the
    water from the outside air.  The affect (I think) should be that
    the cover lowers the impact of the outside air to the water.  So
    it would make sense to me to leave the cover off whenever the air
    temp is higher than the water temp...and on whenever the air temp
    is lower than the water temp (usually at night in the spring, in
    the Northeastern US).  
    
    If so, shouldn't I remove the cover on days when the air temp is
    80-85 and the water temp is @70, in order to speed the heating process?
    
    Does this make sense?

    Nope.  Leaving the solar cover on will definitely raise the water
    temperature faster than without it.  The design of the cover acts
    like a zillion magnifying glasses.  (Just leave one lying on your
    lawn some day for an hour or two!).  That's why it's called a SOLAR
    cover.  This comes from personal experience with mine.  There's
    just no question that the water heats up quicker, regardless
    of the air temperature.
    
    -Mark

    Has anyone else noticed that around this time the birds have a hell
    of a time leaving there droppings all over the cover. Then later
    in july, it's gone. My wife is always after me to put the cover
    on at night, but she don't have to spray the cover every time we
    take it off. I would rather vacuum them up.
    
    Sorry about the subject. Any bird lovers out there know why this
    time of year they do there damage.

    
      Above ground pools heat up faster than in-ground pools when the
    air is warm, since they are exposed on the sides. An above ground
    pool will STILL warm up faster with a solar cover than without because
    heat is not lost through evaporation.
    
      On an in-ground pool the solar cover will DEFINITELY help the
    pool to warm up faster. Since the only contact the pool has with
    the air is at the water's surface, most of the heat gain will go
    to evaporating the water rather than heating the pool. We like our
    pool water at 82-84, when the pool gets up to that point, we leave
    the cover off and it doesn't really go any higher. (+ -) If you
    want the pool to really warm up, you MUST have the cover on at night.
    Depending on the temp of the water and the coolness of the night
    you can lose 2-4 degrees in one night without the sloar cover (inground
    pools)
    
    					Kenny

    I have an inground pool that gets 6-6.5 hrs of sun per day.  With
    a solar cover, on a very sunny day I will gain 4-6 degrees and in
    the evening I will loose about one degree this time of year (evening
    temp @65.  Without the solar cover, I would loose about 2-4 degrees
    in the evening.  
    
    I would estimate that with 6 hours of sun, the cover makes about
    a two degree difference on both ends of the scale (will get you
    two degrees more during the day and loose you two degrees less at
    night).  Net benefit is about four degrees on a sunny day.

    Does anyone have the phone number or the address of the pool company
    that advertises a full lifetime guarentee??? I saw part of the
    commercial as I was flipping through the channels on my TV, and
    I haven't seen the commercial since.....
                                                 Bill
    

The only pool company I've seen blitzing on TV has been Kayak.  Perhaps a
search in the Yellow Pages will get you more.

Pete

The story continues...

The leaking wall just became too much to keep trying to patch (the problem was
between the block on top and the poured concrete wall, where the two met).  I
contacted a mason I know and asked him about tearing down that one portion of
the wall (about 3 rows of block about 17 feet long) and building a new block
topper, which was our plan.

On Saturday I tore the block down and found that almost all of the block wall
(the entire perimeter) is just sitting on top of the poured by gravity.  Any
mortar adhesion that may have been there is long gone, as are the anchor rods
that tried to assure that the block wall wouldn't move atop the poured wall.

We're wondering if a viable alternative now is to have a machine come in and
finish tearing down the block all around (I'm just not up to it) and then have
a forms company come in and set up forms that will result in the following
(viewing from the end of a wall, and the "O" is old poured concrete wall, the
"N" is the proposed new concrete wall:

+--------+
|NNNNNNNN|
|NN+--+NN|
|NN|OO|NN|
|NN|OO|NN|
+--|OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|
   |OO|NN|

I'm going to start calculating how many yards of concrete I'll need.  I'd be
interested in your opinions as to does this make sense?  Can anyone recommend a
small concrete forms company in the Shrewsbury, MA area that you've had good
luck with?

Thanks,
Pete

The linner on my mothers 16 ft dia. pool needs replacing. She bought
a new one and Saturday afternoon I attempted installing it.
I had one person helping me. I got the linner centered on the ground
but the top endge would not line up, as if the top edge was twisted
with respect to the ground. 

I know I will need more help. I also need advise as to the best way
to proceed. The instructions with the linner told you to read the instructions
with the pool, which after eight years have dissappeared. The pool 
manufacturer is out of buisness so they would be no help. 

_bill

    
    
    Bill, How'd you make out I just put my Pool up two weeks ago.
    
    

The liner went in easily, once i got enough help. I spread the liner
out and got it centered as best i could by eye. I then got six people
hold the edges and, about 1/3 of the pool at a time, lift the liner
up a few feet so gravity would see to it that the liner sides were straight 
and there was no overall twist. Once that was done, i ran around with
a bunch clothes pins a pinned the thing in place. I used a broom to smooth
out wrinkles in the botton and then started the water. As the water 
went in, i continued to work on wrinkles in the bottom. Wrinkles in the side
was not a problem cuz the water took care of them. 

bill

    Is there anyone out there with a black plastered pool that can compare
    notes on a problem I'm experiencing.  I've got significant fading
    happening in the plaster around the deep end drain that extends
    out about four or five feet around the drain.  I don't think it
    has anything to do with the drain itself, it just happens to be
    happening in the deepest part of the pool.  I've gone down and examined
    it real close and it does not appear to be scaling.  I've taken
    a wire brush to it and nothing comes off the plaster.  Several of
    what were originally just subtle scratches from whatever have lightened
    and widened making them more obvious.  There is some fading in other
    parts of the pool but not nearly as bad as the deep end.  The pool
    is only two years old and I don't know if this fading will ever
    slow down or stop.  I had the pool builder out last year but they
    said it was scale, so I bought a scale brush.  It wasn't nearly
    as bad as it is this year.  It could be happening over the winter.
    

     I know very little about pools, let alone black plastered ones,
    but, could it be that the dirt settling in the bottom of the pool
    and heading toward the drain during operation that, as it accelerates
    it sort of litens up the plaster a bit like sandpaper would?

    Re .5
    
    Could it possibly be from the chlorene settling to the bottom and
    bleaching it out?  Do you use granular or tablets?  If granular,
    perhaps it's not dissolving totally and a change to tablets might
    help.  Maybe the folks where you buy your pool supplies might be
    able to offer some suggestions.
    
    Good Luck!

    I use stablized chlorine sticks in the skimmer basket and shock
    with liquid shock.  Still could be settling chemicals in the deep
    end, though.  I am planning on checking with the pool chemical people
    next time I'm at the pool store.

    Don't be fooled by 'lifetime warranty'.  A friend was telling me
    that a friend of his had a pool installed under that program
    and how it works is something like this;
    1st 12 months 100% money back for defective parts
    2nd "     "    50%   "    "    "      "       "
    3rd "     "    25%   "    "    "      "       "
    4th "     "    12%.....
    
    Get the picture?
    Get the details first.
    Regards,
    Tom
    

    Does anyone know of a source for large rolls of outdoor carpeting?
    I live in an area where the water table is extremely high and in
    the winter the pool area patio heaves a great deal.  I've already
    had the area resurfaced, but after one winter it started to crack
    again.  What I'm thinking of doing is putting down some outdoor
    carpeting for the summer then rolling it up for the winter.
    
    I've also investigated various products used in shower areas at
    health clubs (rubber tiles).  The cost was around $4/sq. ft., the
    area I need to cover is 1700 sq. ft.  Any suggestions?
    

    Where do you live ? There's a place in Lunenburg Ma. (Acme Floor
    Covering Rte 2A ) which carries outdoor carpet. How about a pressure 
    treated deck around the pool ?

    Thanks I'll give them a call, I live in Lancaster Ma. which is really
    close by.  I investigated the pressure treated route, it was also
    to expensive to cover 1700+ sq. ft.
    

Has anyone had any experience with a tile-over-concrete-block pool?  

My wife and I are planning to build a home containing an indoor pool and would
like to do as much of the labor ourselves as possible.  It would seem to me
that tile-over-concrete-block would be the least expensive way for us to go.

Can wall cracking be avoided by laying a very thick slab?

Is tile adhesion a problem?

Must the pool have right-angle corners or are curves possible?

Any construction hints?

Thanks in advance,
Paul

    IMHO cracking is likely to occur in a concrete pool simply because the
    weight of the water is going to cause settling, and there's probably no
    way of avoiding it.  Perhaps you could cast the entire pool as a solid
    piece of reinforced concrete, but it's likely to be somewhat expensive
    to do that.
    
    If I were installing a pool I'd build it like an outdoor pool, with
    a liner.  Since that's fairly flexible it's unlikely you'd have any
    cracking.
    
    Whatever you do, after you're done, be sure and invite all members of
    this conference over for a swim and barbeque, and be sure to do it in
    the middle of January, when you pool is heated and it's freezing
    outside.  That's our price for all the free advice.
    
    Good luck
    Rich

I was hoping that just a monster slab would be enough - after all, as long as
slab doesn't crack, the block walls shouldn't crack.

What I am really looking for (and probably should have asked in the first place)
is a way for me to do all or most of the work myself.  Obviously gunnite is out
and I would really like to avoid liner hassles.  So, let me rephrase the 
question:  what would be the best way to create an inground pool yourself?

Paul

    Builders Square in Nashua has a good supply of I/O carpet.  Building
    19 1/2 in Burlington also has it cheap when they have it.
    
    Bonnie

    Update: 
    
    The people at Dunk 'n Bubble in Acton said it was alkali stains as
    a result of high alkalinity.  I bought a Stainmaster device from them
    and removed most of the serious stains with muriatic acid.  That
    lowered my total alkalinity to 75 ppm (from 120) and my PH went below
    the scale (somewhere below 6.0).  I added 10 pounds of PH plus and
    brought the PH up to range, but strangely it also raised the total
    alkalinity to 100, although they swear that sodium carbonate will only
    raise PH, not total alkalinity.  
    
    Anyway, both are in range and I am waiting to see if these stains
    reappear.  They told me that I will get some fading and staining with
    normal curing of plaster but they should just brush off with the wire
    brush.  These don't brush off unless I get up close and apply *alot* of
    pressure.  Using the pole extension just doesn't allow enough pressure
    to remove the stains.

    My two year old gunite, plaster pool has begun to loose water at a
    faster-than-normal rate.  I loose about 1/2 inch overnight (eight
    hours) even with no pump running and no swimming.  I don't remember it
    ever being that bad before.  What is considered normal water loss?  The
    book says you can loose up to an inch per day with alot of swimming. 
    At this rate I would say I could loose more like two inches per day....
    and an inch even with no swimming.
    
    I've called the pool builders in for this Friday to do a pressure test
    on the pipes.  Any experiences to share?

    Our neighborhood pool has had the same problem.  We have two filtering
    systems so we plugged the skimmer intakes on one (with pump
    off)overnightand then did the same to the other filter intakes the
    next day to check for pipe leaks.  We also checked the drain on
    the pool.  Finally we had dunk'n Bubbles in Acton come out to check
    the pool.....they found a hairline crack in the concrete about 2"
    below the tile line.....they suggested using hydraulic putty to
    seal the crack.

    It would seem to me that if the break is in the pipe or the filter
    system that you would be introducing some air into the lines.  As water
    leaves the pipe, air would come in.  So would it make sense that I
    would be experiencing some air in the lines if the leak was in the
    pipe?  

    re .8
    
      You will only see air in the system if the break in a pipe is
    on the intake side of the pump. If the break is on the other side,
    the pressure of the water would force the water out of the break, but
    there would be no way for air to enter at the same time. 
      Personally  - I bet it's NOT a pipe.
    
    					Kenny

    I also suspect it is not the pipe.  More likely a break somewhere in
    the plaster.  I'm HOPING it is NOT the pipe.  What a nightmare if they
    have to go through the concrete deck!
    
    I should know more this Monday.  

    The builder pressure tested the pipes and found no leaks (thank God!). 
    There were some major leaks around both skimmers.  He plugged them
    with some putty-like material.  Now I wait and see, with fingers
    crossed.

    I'm looking for some advice on locating a leak in the liner of an
    above-ground (18' round, 4' deep) pool. We've determined that it's not
    on the sides in the top two feet of the liner -- the water level has
    already fallen below that.  
    
    The hole has got to be fairly small, because visual inspection of the
    liner using goggles turned up nothing.  Any creative ideas for finding
    the leak? I'd like to fix it before closing the pool for the winter. 
    

    Find someone with scuba gear to take a close and long look at the liner
    (don't laugh, I used thias method on my parents pool many times).
    Repair the problem before the winter because if the water drops too low
    during the winter, you'll have BIG problems. Where are you located,
    because if its a warm climate and you'll pay the airfare, I'll bring my
    tanks out :-).
    
    Eric

    This thought just came to mind. As "smoke pencils" are used to "color"
    the air to locate air infiltration, why not use food coloring. Put
    some in a squirt gun, enter pool, wait for turbulence to calm, and 
    "squirt" a few shots around the permiter. If you can "see" the dye
    exiting, you have found the leak. BTW if you are paying air fare, I'll
    bring the squirt gun.
    
    You asked for creative....
    
    Not to be confused w/ the air shredders....:^)

    I agree with the food coloring approach.  Check with your local pool
    supplier regarding what to use and techniques.  I suggest checking the
    more obvious places first..around the skimmer, along the seam, around
    the light.

    I have a friend with a gunite in-ground pool which is approximately
    five years old.  Apparently the plaster is deteriorating; it was
    built by Andrews Pools in MA.  When she called them, they told her
    that gunite pools needed to be replastered every 5-7 years.   This
    was news to her - they want $5K to do her pool in their "pebble
    finish".  She has had other estimates ranging from $2.5K to $3.8K
    - with no warrantees.
    
    My question is this - is re-plastering a gunite pool something that
    is a normal thing to do after a certain number of years, as they
    are stating?  I have never heard this before.  What would be the
    result if you did not do this is your plaster was becoming thin?
    
    Has anyone had any experience getting their pool re-plastered?
    What was the cost?  

    
    
    5-7 years is normal in New England.........I have a friend who
    skim-coated his pool with white plaster by himself.  He drained the
    water, set up temp. staging in the shallow end, mixed some plaster,
    and coated it in about four hours.  Now, he *is* a mason by trade,
    but he told me it's not that big a deal..... he was going to do
    my gunite pool for me this year, but I moved.
    
    The company that originally built my pool in Salem, N.H. for me
    specifically told me that it would probably need to be done in the
    5-7 year timeframe.   I know that if the PH isn't monitored during
    the year, a high Alkalinity causes rapid plaster deteriation.  I
    was also warned about this.  The builder told me of a case where
    they re-plastered a pool after one season.  Good Luck.

    I had one that lasted 10 years and is still going.  What are the
    indications of plaster deterioration?
    
    ed

    	Update:  Construction started last week. Addition will be 24'
    X 48' including office, studio, cedar closet, and 40' lap pool.
    The primary moisture control will be a dehumidifier unit made for
    pool areas, at about $5000, and very good insulation w/thermal breaks
    for exterior walls. A cover was considered and reluctantly dropped
    - people who had tried them said that they 1. were a pain, 2. wore
    out, 3. stopped user from using pool on some occasions, 4. did not
    solve the moisture problem - you still need dehumidification. The
    dehumidifier has a built in latent heat recovery system that returns
    warm(ed) condensate to the pool.  next update: this winter? - Chris

    Along these lines, I saw an ad for a lap pool in one of those 1/4-ly
    "house beautiful" type mags. This one was only 12-16 feet long,
    but had jets forcing water in one direction. The swimmer literally
    swims in place. Didn't look into it too far, but I would assume
    the force of the water is adjustable, and controllable so you
    don't knocked around if you decide to stop.
    
    John

    re .5:

    There was an article in the Boston Globe about these a couple of months
    ago.  They cost big bucks (10's of thousands).

    re. .-1
    
    Actually I think they run about $10K - $15K. "10's of thousands" it a 
    bit high.  I haven't really investigated, but yes the flow of the water
    is adjustable to match your swimming speed.  Also the manufacturer
    (which I believe is in Rhode Island) is claiming these pools give 
    you a better aerobic workout because you don't have to stop to turn around. 
    
    TH 

    	Status: The roof was finished Friday, just in time for the
    snowstorm.  Should get closed in (windows & sliders) this week. Then I
    take over:  
    	I'm wondering why particle board underlayment is needed. The
    subfloor is 3/4" tongue & groove plywood, nailed and PL400'ed to the
    joists. It is very smooth and level and the seams are small. I plan to
    carpet all of the non-pool spaces. 
    	* Do I have to put down underlayment?  or, really, Will I regret it
    if I don't? *

      tangent: bought a 1990 Mass. version of the NEC, all 830 pages of it!
    It's so overwhelming that I went for the NEC Handbook, which supposedly
    explains the code book with lots of pretty pictures, etc.  Anyone have
    experience with this? (This year's version may not be out yet - I
    ordered it almost a month ago, from Quincy, MA.)  - Chris

    	re. last:  My research indicates that there is no real need for the
    particleboard underlayment over the T&G plywood. The builder and other
    experienced people agree. [That's gonna save me a ton of work!] 
    	Still no NEC Handbook.

    	New question: I was planning to insulate the shell and then do the
    wiring/electrical and then the insulating of certain interior partitions/
    ceilings (I want to be able to let most of the space 'float' with no
    heat but heat some spaces.) I've been told that the insulation makes
    the electrical work go much slower/more difficult. During the summer,
    I'd just take their advise, but in this weather...  Which should I do
    first: insulate shell or wiring?
     - Chris (not looking forward to wiring in a heavy jacket)

    Insulation is last. Couple of reasons 
    
    Ever see what happens to insulation when a drill bit catches it. It
    can  be a real pain unwrapping 8 ft of insulation from the end of a
    bit.
    
    Wire ends are sharp and can poke holes in the vapor barrier in an eye
    wink.
    
    Wiring inspectors can be a pain they sometimes like to see the runs and
    count the staples. If it's hidden they may make you rip the insulation
    out.
    
    And last but not least the inspector or most likely the wife will want to 
    move something once they see how the real thing looks.
    
    A space heating and warm clothes makes the going easier. Do the grunt
    work pulling cable drilling holes and nailing up boxes (the work will 
    keep you warm), save the final connections for last after you have 
    insulated and put up your wall covering.
    
    Don 
    (who wired his house in Febuuurrrr ary)

    Since it is Jan., I'd suggest you look into purchasing a solar cover
    for Spring if you'd like to go swimming by Memorial Day.  In the
    pre-cover days I'd open the pool Mem. Day weekend and hope it would
    be above 70'F by the 4th of July.  (Sun hits ~10AM & the house shadow  
    creeps over the pool at ~4PM).  Now I open it 2 weeks before Mem.
    Weekend and we use it (weather permitting) Me. Day!  And if we ever
    get a decent August the use will be extended towards the Fall, also.
    
    .9's solar cover temp rise/fall experience echoes mine.  The other
    benefit is the savings in chemical cost.  The cover (cost me $100)
    paid for itself the first year!
    
    It keeps the leaves & sticks & acorns & bugs (yes, I'm blessed with 
    neighboring trees) out of the water (plus a lot of organics washed
    off the trees when it rains), reduces evaporation & additional water 
    loss due to reduction in backwashing frequency. 
                                     
    The "Cons"?  
    
    1. It takes 5-10 min to install/remove it.
    2. Remember to cover it with the white plastic sheet because direct
       sunlight will melt it.
    3  When it gets dirty you need to wash it.  Spread it out on the lawn 
       & spend 15 min. with the garden hose.  It keeps the heating
       efficiency up *and* gets your lawn watered!
    
    Not bad for welded strips of oversize bubblepack!  (I know someone
    who saved *used* bubblepack and made his own solar cover!)
        
    							Don
       

    
    With the price of an above-ground solar reel reaching $150 and higher,
    I thought this idea might be useful to a few people.
    
    After being frustrated by my solar cover for the first few weeks of
    last season, I threw together a DIY reel for it.
    
            X                                                      X
    *--.  X                                                          X
       | X                                                            X
       `----------------------------------------------------------------*
         X *--------------------------------------------------------* X
         X                                                            X
         X <- pool wall                                               X
    
    This is made from 3/4" PVC water pipe. The ends are capped. The handle
    is 1' lengths of the same pipe attached by elbows.
    
    The shorter pipe is some 6" shorter than the width of the pool on each
    side, the longer pipe extends past the pool wall by a few inches.
    
    The pipes are screwed together with brass screws about every 2', with
    the solar cover sandwiched between them, just before it starts to taper
    at one end of the pool.
    
    With this reel in place, I can remove and install the cover in 20-30
    seconds, and stow it neatly at one end of the pool. The reel is not
    stiff enough to support the weight of the cover, so it takes two people
    to move it onto the grass for the occasional cleaning.
    
    This was inspired by a Popular Science "Wordless Workshop" pictorial
    from last year, showing a shelf made from PVC drain pipe on one end of the
    pool, to keep the cover off the ground and clean. I intend to add that
    this year.
    

    I have just purchased an oval pool - 15 x 30 from Namco. I am a
    first time pool owner and was just told by a "friend" that oval 
    pools are basically not as reliable or sturdy as round pools. 
    Anyone out there with an oval pool that could share some insights 
    into this and hope make me feel that I did not make a mistake and
    that I am worrying neddlessly. Are oval pools more difficult to 
    clean or vacumn...has anyone had GOOD luck with their oval??
    
    Thanks.
    
    Mike
     

    RE .0
    
    Those sound like the words of the salesmen who sell round pools...
    the reason we were told is that the water has a tendancy to push
    outward and an oval pool would require more structure in order to
    resist the outward force of the water.  Don't know if it's BS but
    it sounded good at the time.  
    
    What kind of guarantee comes with it?  Who's doing the installation?
    If it's properly installed I doubt you'd encounter any major
    problems...I haven't seen any of my neighbors' oval pools collapsing
    lately!  FWIW - this will be our 6th season with our 24' round
    above-ground pool (Aqualine) and it still looks like new - the only
    thing we've replaced is the pump. Not having kids running & jumping
    probably has helped in that regard.
    
    Good luck - I'm sure all this worry will be forgotten the first hot
    spell when you're cooling off!
    
    ep

    
    re.0
    
    the only problem that you may encounter is if the pressure plates that
    are bolted together are not bolted together exactly like in the
    direction booklet so that all the holes line up correctly and you use
    the correct bolts (carriage bolts with the round heads facing the
    liner...the lock washers and nuts should face the ground. cover the
    straps deeply enough so as to be able to cover them smoothly with sand
    to give you a nice soft bottom. BUT MOST IMPORTANT, after you have the
    wall up and the sand on the bottom raaked smooth leave ENOUGH sand
    inside so that you cansort of "saucer" it along the wall so that when
    the liner seats itself against the walls it won't have "square" corners
    to seat into... therefore not producing excessive amounts of pressure
    along the seams becasue of a low, weak spot. the sand should go about
    4-6"" up against the wall. don't worry about sand getting the lower
    track when you do this because a simple squirt of the garden hose will
    flush it right out. and make sure the wall is seated all around the
    track and solid underneath before you fill it. and then when you have
    about an inch of water across the bottom get on your hands and knees
    and "pull" the wrinkles out working from the center towards the edges.
    and one last trick...don't tighten the top decks permanently tight
    UNTIL you have them ALL bolted up....sometimes you have to shake and
    push to line up the holes at the end.
    
    its a job...but bwith a little experience and 2-3 guys you shoulds have
    it up in a day...it the dig isn't too bad.
    
                                                                      Henry

	I would second .2. If you don't install the sand, the liner will creep
 under the steel wall, due to the tremendous water pressure. I had 4-5 cu. yds
 of sand delivered for this purpose, and a smooth bottom.

	Another word of advice, get the pool walls leveled to 1/2 to 1 inch.
 When I installed my 24' round pool, a Muskin, I thought I had it level. 
 Wrong! It was off by 2-3 inches near the skimmer (too high). I had to empty 
 the pool, peel back the liner, etc, and dig up under the pool wall. Rent or
 borrow a transit, and get it right the first time.

	Enjoy!
 
	

RE: .3

	Another way to measure the level is with a water level.

	It is basically a piece of clear pipe that you fill with water.

	It is a cheap way to level if you can't borrow a transit.


	Bill

    It's been over a week and still no answer from the base noter regarding
    who is doing the installation, etc...  Where are you, Mike?
    
    ep

    
    It's easy to level an above ground pool without specialty equipment.
    
    Build the apparatus below. The 2x3 stake has a lag bolt screwed into
    the top to act as a pivot. The 2x6 has a hole drilled into one end to
    accept the pivot, is long enough to reach to the perimeter of the pool,
    and is _very_straight. A good level is taped on top. The adjustable leg
    is a scrap of 2x3 nailed to a plywood foot and clamped to the other end
    of the 2x6.
    
         .-. 
         | |               ___________________
         | |.-- clamp      |   O     O     O  | <-- level
    -------/-----------<<----------------------------->>------------------
    |     *                       2x6                                    |
    ------------------<<----------------------------->>-------------------
         | |                                                          | |
         | | <-- 2x3                                     2x3 stake--> | |
         | |                                                          \ /
      ========= <-- 12x12 plywood nailed to 2x3                        V
    
    
    Round pool:
    
    	1. Remove sod from the area.
    
    	2. Drive the stake solidly into the center of the pool circle. This
    	   is your reference point.
    
    	3. Mount the 2x6, and adjust the leg so that it's straddling the
    	   perimeter line of the pool and the 2x6 is level. Draw a line
    	   on the leg where it meets the top of the 2x6.
    
    	   At this point you should also draw a line on the 2x6 where it
    	   meets one side of the 2x3, and use this to maintain a constant
    	   radius when you reclamp the leg. To make this even easier, nail
    	   stud scraps to the 2x6 on either side of the leg, so that the leg
    	   can just slide up and down between them.
    
    	4. Progressing around the circle at regular intervals, relevel the
    	   2x6 and mark the 2x3 where it meets the top of the 2x6, as
    	   before. You're looking for the lowest point on the ground, or
    	   the highest marking on the leg. When you notice a low point,
    	   put a marker on the ground. If after that, you find a lower
    	   point (you draw a line on the leg higher than any other), move
    	   the marker to that point.
    
    	5. When you've gotten all the way around the circle, the marker on
    	   the ground points to the lowest point of the perimeter. Set the
    	   leg so that the highest mark lines up with the 2x6, and verify
    	   that at this setting, the 2x6 is level at the low point marker,
    	   and is high to the outside at all other places. Don't adjust the
    	   leg after this.
    
    	6. Going around the circle again, remove soil under the foot until
    	   the 2x6 is level. You now have a level trench at the perimeter
    	   of the pool. Work in from the trench, using another piece of
    	   straight dimensional lumber as s reference, to remove excess
    	   soil from the rest of the circle.
    
    Oval pool:
    
    	Just a little more work than a round pool. An oval pool is just two
    	circles offset by some distance. For example, a 15x25 oval pool is
    	two circles of 7.5' radius, with their centers 10' apart.
    
    	So. to apply this technique, define the two circles that create
    	your oval, then drive a stake into the center of each circle. Using
    	a straight piece of dimensional that will reach both stakes, level
    	them carefully to each other. Then proceed around each circe as
    	above, find the lowest point in *both circles combined*. Set the
    	leg to its highest mark and trench around both circles; the
    	trenches should meet level. Then remove the other excess dirt from
    	within the circles, and also from the area that lies between the
    	two circles.
    
    I used this to install my 15x25 oval. Leveling was a one-person job,
    and the result was well within an inch of true level when I filled the
    pool.

    Hi again..I'm back. I have been busy with some other yard details
    and haven't thought about the pool until I got a call this week
    from the installer. I'm not doing the installation. However what
    you said about the sand makes sense, I plan on mentioning it to
    the installer when I talk to him again. Hopefully within two weeks
    it'll all be done.(the pool that is! I'm building a deck around
    3/4 of the pool, but that's another story!)
    
    Mike

    I am not leaking water as far as I can tell. I think I am leaking air! 
    Since I opened my IG pool about 2 weeks ago, (my first year with a pool) 
    there are occasional air bubbles coming out of the eyeballs. There are 
    a couple of see through fittings at the filter and you can see air 
    bubbles in the water.
    The basket at the pump also shows a fair bit of churning. 
    
    Am I drawing air in? How can I find out what's happening?
    
    Terry
    

I am thinking about covering my concrete pool walkway with indoor/outdoor car-
peting. But how should the carpet be attached to the concrete surface? Some kind
of adhesive?

There is a type of carpet tape (double-sided) made for such applications.

		Steve

    Depending on the input to the filter, air can be trapped in the basket
    in the area above where the inlet pipe is. This will usually vent
    itself, but you may need to open the basket clamp to vent the air (with
    the pump shut off). There also could be an air leak in the input hose
    or other fitting before the pump, allowing air into the system. I'm
    making the assumption that you vented the air out of the filter itself,
    if not, there should be a bleeder valve somewhere near the top of the
    tank.
    
    Eric

    No I did not vent any air out of the filter. I'll look for a valve
    tonight. Do you do that with the system on? 
    
    There does appear to be air in the top of the basket. But if I turn the
    power off, and start to open the basket (a screw type lid) the air
    rushes in because it is a vacuum. (Isn't it?)
    
    Terry

    I couldn't see any bleeder valve. Any other ideas?
    
    Could air be drawn in through a leak in the pressure side? Like at the
    output of the filter?
    
    Terry

    Since you have an inground pool (I ref'ed back), then you're probably
    right about removing the basket cover. Does the amount of air in the
    basket increase over time when the pump is shut off. This would imply
    an inlet leak. The bleeder valve might be on the guage asmy, or at the
    outlet pipe fitting (that's where mine is on a Haywood DE filter). 
    
    Eric

    When I shut the power off, a small bubble enters the basket every 3-5
    seconds. You can see it, and hear it. The water level in the basket
    drops also.
    
    It must be an inlet leak. I ran the pool for a day with flap in the
    skimmer blocking the bottom drain. Still air. (that's a relief) 
    So the only part of the system left is the line from the skimmer to the
    pump. Maybe I'll do some more troubleshooting this weekend.
    
    Thanks for your help. 
    
    There is definitely no bleeder in my system.
    
    Terry

    I've had two pools. The first was a 24' round and the current
    pool is a 18'x37' oval (yeah, its a biggie. The pool guy
    says that he doesn't sell many of those). The oval pool
    has been up since 1984 with no problems. Like with many
    other things, if installed properly it will work well.
    
    p.s. I installed the 24' round but when it came to the oval..
    forget it. I spent the $ to have the dealer install it ($700)
    and it was worth every cent.

    I have an inground pool that is 20x40 it is vinyl lined and is about
    19 years old, same liner. Late last year i noticed I was losing a
    little water but closed it up and this year with all the rain in the
    east coast never realized that the leak was still there. I am losing
    about 3/4 inch in a 24 hour period. So I put in the freeze plugs in
    the 2 return lines and put the Gizmo in the skimmer. I shut off all
    valves and it is still leaking. I also have a main drain in the 
    deepest end of the pool. I really don't see any holes or tears in
    the liner from above but was wondering how I can tell if the pipe under
    my main drain would be where I could be losing the water. Does anyone
    know if I get someone to get down there and take the cover off the main
    drain and plug that up. Does it have threads on the end like the
    skimmer has? Hate to close it up next week and find no water in the
    pool next spring and my walls collapsed.

    HELP 

    My main drain has threads in it. If it doesn't you could try one of
    those rubber plugs that you can tighten with a wing nut to snug it up.
    
    The skimmer assembly itself might be cracked or damaged. If the liner
    is in good shape and there are no visible holes/tears then you might
    just let the level settle out. What the heck it's the end of the
    season.

    I took a closer look at my skimmer last night. There is a ring in the
    center on the inside that has come loose on one end I don't know if
    water is seeping through that. I started the pump again and I am 
    filtering it from the main drain only, once the water level goes under
    the skimmer I will see if the leak stops. I would settle for a new
    skimmer verses a liner or a leak in the main drain. My wife hates to
    put the cover on so early even though no one will swim in it because the
    water will get colder even with the solor cover on it at night.

    Pool liner leaks are a pain to locate under the best of circumstances,
    especially from the top. The method I used in my parents linered pool
    was to use by scuba tanks and do a close examination of the liner from
    underwater. If you know any divers, perhaps you can bribe them into
    doing you a favor. Ohter than that, the "let it lower itself" idea
    should work.
    
    Eric

    Well to update my leak. I was advised to let it leak past the skimmer
    and the return lines after a diver went down and plugged my main drain.
    ($50 ten minutes work) it is still going down. Called the diver back,
    he want's $150 for the first hour, $75 after that and will plug any
    leaks he finds. Like -1 said to look down at the liner you can never
    see anything. I see a few wash out area's but it is from run off water
    getting in between my cement patio and the coping. I am going to see a 
    fireman friend this weekend and see if anyone wants to pick up some
    extra money. Meanwhile the walls are getting yellow and I cannot start
    the pump with the water level that far down.
    
    Stay tuned.

    John, Unfortunately, you're about 6 weeks too late, since I moved from
    Nashua, NH to Texas in the middle of August. Diving can be quite
    profitable. An idea (assuming that you don't know any divers) is to
    check whith your local dive shops/diving schools (yes, even the YMCA
    runs certification courses) to see if anyone would like to earn a few
    bucks. It might be worth a try.
    
    Eric

    Thanks all, My son's new girlfriend is certified and will be happy to
    look for it free but next spring when the water is warmer, she has no
    wet suit to keep warm. I guess I will add some water every week until
    the water freezes and try to locate it next summer.

    Word of warning, the surface of the water will freeze not the entire
    volume.  Therefore, if your leak is at the bottom of the pool the water
    below the freeze line will still drain out.  You may want to keep an
    eye on it by chopping through the surface and add water if necessary.
    Good luck, Rob.

    That's something I did not think of. Now I'm worried. I may just keep
    the cover off so I can keep a better eye on it.
    
    Thanks

    I am happy to report that my son found the leak in the bottom of the
    pool right in front of the main drain. I always maintained that with
    the pump running the leak was minimal but with it off it went down
    1/2" in 24 hours. I guess the suction down there was helping the
    water bypass the leak a bit. Anyway he put the patch in on Monday
    and it has not gone down since. So I guess I can close it finally
    this weekend. He saved me a few hundred bucks on a diver so I guess
    I will let him mooch a few meals off us.

    Has anyone had their coping and tile replaced in a Gunite pool?
    
    I've talked with Dennis Fitzgerald, Mason NH  who's quoted me $4000-
    does this sound reasonable?   
    
    I'm interested in other recommendations.
    
    Thanks,
    Linda

    I am not sure if that is a high price. You might try QUALITY DESIGN
    POOLS in Hudson, N.H. 880-4888.

This note is fine for discussion of the reasonableness of the quote or of other
repair options.  But please post any recommendations for contractors in note
2026.

Thanks
Paul

    I have a 15x30 oval above ground pool that is leaking.  The water level
    has dropped 2 feet since closing it this fall.  The cover is on it
    but i am worried that with snow, ice, rain all accumulating on the 
    cover, that it may pull in the sides.  Should i remove the cover
    from the pool?  Any suggestions to get me through the winter, i plan
    on finding the leak and fixing it myself this spring.
    
    thanks,
    mike
    

    You could damage the pool by having it drain itself over the winter,
    not to mention that it would do the liner not a drop of good. The walls
    themselves, with no water behind them pressing against the supports,
    are not very strong.
    
    Eric

    I think a tanker load of water is 8,000 gal.
    
    Does anyone know if Consumer Reports has ever done a comparison of the
    different pool construction methods? ie Gunite vs Concrete vs Steel
    Wall?
    
    Steve 

    Don't know about any Consumer Report articles but from my
    investigations a few years ago, the consideration re the differences
    between gunite (blown-in concrete covered with plaster) and vinyl liner
    in-ground pools was not so much the construction methods...as in my
    opinion, both shells would last pretty much forever....but more in
    things like shapes offered (gunite can be any shape you want), cost
    (gunite costing more), etc.
    
    My decision to go with gunite was based on the desire to have an odd
    shape and the consideration that the difference in cost was about the
    cost of one vinyl liner...as I recall it was @$3-5k difference back
    then.

    My neighbor made a quick trip to the local building supply.  He bought
    a downspout with a flexible elbow and a filter.  It took about a week
    (a rainy one) to fill his pool with the runoff from the roof.
    

    HMM, Big roof? Small pool?  I had a 22000 gal pool (~3000 cu ft)
    and a 1000 sq ft foundation.  Would have needed around 36 inches of
    rain.  Right?  Maybe a wet spring might have done it but not a wet
    week.
    
    ed

    Well, if he was in the path of Himmacane Bob. . .
    
    (Sorry, I couldn't resist).
    
    -Bob

I'd like to broaden the topic a little and ask a bunch of questions.  Has
anyone ever filled in a pool?  What were your experiences in doing this?
Good? Bad? 

Is there a ready market for the used accoutrements?  (Diving boards,
ladders, vacuum hose, filter, pump, etc.)  What about the fence (chain
link, eg, in good  condition)?

Might the suggestion made in .3 be practical? (Build a patio over the pool
leaving the option in the future of reopening it.)

If filling in a concrete or gunite pool, might there be any water retention
problems if you just dump fill in without busting up the shell, or would
it be necessary to break it up before filling in?

    
    No insight on the technical side, but in the latest National Geographic
    there is a picture of a rectangular pool that was filled in to become
    the centerpiece of a beautiful Japanese garden.
    
    There was no diving board in sight.
    

    How much for the diving board? What type is it? Is it in good shape?
    You already have buyers! ;^)
    Jean

I wonder if anyone in the future will be asking, can I dig out a filled in
pool and will it still be ok and hold water and ...

Maybe, just maybe, when you sell the home, you'll be glad you took so pictures
(or video) of the condition of the pool when the first shovelful of dirt when
it, and then when the dumptruck let the first load in ...

    I am also wondering how much it would cost to close my inground pool. I
    don't use the pool and plan to sell my house (in Shrewsbury MA) in
    about two years. I wish to compare the cost of closing the pool 
    permanently or replacing the vinyl liner (worst case repair). Also I have 
    to take in account which option would help in selling the house. I know 
    that the impact of pool in Mass is discussed elsewhere in the notes file.

    I realize the cost of closing the pool would also involve landscaping
    the entire backyard. At present the patio leads to the oval pool and
    the rest of the backyard has gravel. I was wondering which professionals 
    should I consult before making the final decision. I am thinking of
    consulting landscape professional and a relator. The previous replies
    mention about contractors. What kind of contractors deal with closing
    the pool? Of course, I would call pool service persons to see if the
    pool can be properly fixed this time at moderate price.

    I would appreciate your answers though I understand some of the general
    questions I raised here are difficult to answer.

    Abhijit

    I am in the process of purchasing a home that has a gunite pool.
    The pool had been drained of most of it's water during the winter.
    I had it inspected and they found no damage.  Anyway my million $
    question is painting the pool.   The pool has white plaster that
    has a fair amount of stains on it.  I started cleaning it with acid
    and a power steam cleaner and a good deal of it comes off but of course
    it is not pure white.   The homeowner suggested that I paint it, also
    the inspector suggested painting it (of course he would do it for 
    an outrages fee).   He also stated not to use chlorinated rubber 
    paint because it will not be on the market much longer. He said
    use a water based acrylic that he sells for $54 per gallon. I know
    I could find it for less.  
    The real question here is, is it a good idea to paint these or not.
    Almost all pool companies that I call say DON'T.   
    Any opinions out there?
    

    I'd listen to the pool companies.

    I wouldn't do it. My neighbor has a Gunite pool and always ends up with
    some stains due to leaves getting under the cover during the winter.
    The leaves decompose leaving browm stains. He uses chlorine tablets
    with water to scrub and bleach the stained areas. It's a bit of work
    and I don't know if it's recommended but it works pretty good for him.
    
    
    /Charlie

    I have a gunite pool and while my plaster is black as opposed to the
    traditional white, I would not paint it.  You will end up having to
    repaint every 2-3 years at best...that's if you use high quality marine
    paint....every year if you use something cheaper.  This is from the
    experience of a friend who has a home made concrete pool that was not
    plastered and was constructed to require water-proof paint.
    
    My black plaster pool has stains galore but I've learned to live with
    it.  The only realistic alternative is to do an acid wash, which is
    very expensive (or labor-intensive if you do it yourself), removes a
    coat of plaster, and will only need to be done again after several
    years.  Re-plastering is also an alternative, also very expensive and
    only temporary.
    
    Do what I did...learn to love the worn look.  Actually, with black
    plaster the white-ish stains make the pool look marbled.  White with
    off-white stains doesn't look as acceptable but unfortunately the cost
    and effort of chasing that problem is probably going to be
    unreasonable.
    
    I was warned by the pool builder that the plaster would not stay black
    and it was in the contract.  White will also not stay white.  By the
    way, some of the stains could be calcium leaking from the gunite
    (concrete) through the plaster.  Removed with acid but again, a pain in
    the butt.
    
    Jim

    
    I have some questions, maybe someone can help with.. 
    
    #1 Question, What damage, if any will it cause the pump if we were to 
                 try and fill or half fill a 27' round pool.  We have an 
                 artesion well, and its always bubbling over the cap, so
                 that should be no problem.  Its the pump we are worried 
                 about.   Any ideas??
    
    #2 Question, New pool owners that we are.. What is better/easier to 
                 use, Chlorine or the new bacquisil. 
                 We were told by a salesmen at Namco, that if we were to 
                 use Bacquisil, the pool would have to be drained after the
                 5th or 6th season, and we would have to start all over
                 again.  Anybody help us on this?? 
    
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Joyce

    
    Joyce - Your well pump will have no problem filling your pool, unless
    it was going to go anyway. Its no different than if you were watering
    your lawn. Do you have a deep well or a dug well? If you have a dug
    well, you *might* have to fill a little at a time to avoid getting air
    into the system which would cause the pump to lose its prime. If you 
    have a deep well, that is not usually a problem. 
    
      I did some quick calcs and your pool is about 15K gallons which comes
    out to about 310 gallons per inch depth. What I usually do is fill for
    a couple hours a day. You'll find the pool will fill at perhaps 1.5
    inches per hour. (Depends on your water system)
    
    				Kenny

re: .0, Joyce

 Question 1 - If your artesian well bubbles over the cap, I'd seriously
		consider attempting to construct some kind of "reservoir"
		around the cap and use a portable submersible to grab that
		water for the pool via a hose. While .1 is correct that
		gradual filling isn't going to kill your primary pump, the
		use of a separate pump will additionally not affect your
		household pressure/delivery. From experience, though, be
		cautious about using your well water if you have any
		substantial iron content or you'll end up with some nasty
		liner stains.

 Question 2 - I used Baquicil my first season and then switched to chlorine
		the next year because it was more convenient, less expensive,
		and no more objectionable. I simply started in with Cl products
		the second year with no special prep/purging/draining. Never
		had a problem. Your mileage may vary.

-Jack

    I started with Bromine six years ago and switched to chlorine because
    the extra expense wasn't worth the supposed advantages of a
    low-chlorine sanitizer.  I can't speak to Baquacil but I've been using
    chlorine for six years and as long as you keep your water chemicals in
    balance, there's no problem.  
    
    By the way, there's a new chlorine concentrate stick that is now out
    that disipates more slowly...therefore you have to add sticks alot less
    often.  It lasts twice as long and is almost twice the per-pound
    cost..so it just about evens out.  Haven't tried it yet but will
    probably give it a shot next season.
    
    Jim
    
    Jim

    
    
    Thanks for the input..... We've decided on a tanker bringing us water
    at 185.00 for 9000 gals. and decided on chlorine as well.. 
    
    Thanks..

> $185.00 for 9000 gallons ...

Sounds like a good deal to me ... I live on a 1000 gallon cistern, and
the man who fills it once per week charges $12.00 for 500 gallons (your
price is about $10.30 for 500 gallons).

Of course, Colorado is high desert ........

    The rubberized sealant between the coping and the deck of my inground
    pool is shrivelling up and probably should be replaced.  Has anyone
    done this and what material should I use?  I was considering something
    like Phenoseal.
    
    Jim

    I have a Gunite pool that came with the house I purchased this year.
    I am thinking of closing it myself as instead of spending money
    for someone else to do it.   I have read different instruction 
    sheets available from pool supply places but none of them cover my
    question.  And that is, what do you do with the bottom drain??  I
    know you plug all the exhaust ports and fill with antifreeze but
    what do I do with the bottom drain??

    Nothing much. :-)
    
    Assuming you can leave the outlet from the drain open when you pump
    down the water level, then the water in the outlet from the drain
    should be at the same level as your pool. Then close the outlet so that
    water can't get in once the pool has frozen and you should be all set.
    
    Actually, I go one step further. The guy who installed my pool gave me
    a cap for the outlet that has an air pressure valve in it (the same
    sort as on a tire). I close the outlet with this cap, then pump air in
    until bubbles start coming out of the drain. The drain pipe now
    contains air down to the level of the bottom of the pool.
    
    - Richard.

    I am trying to find a place to purchase DECO-SEAL.  This is that
    white rubberized filler that you use around pool copings.  I have
    tried all the do it yourself home places and also masonary supply
    companies but no luck.   Any ideas??    Central Mass area??

    
    Have you tried NAMCO ?
    
    Fred

    I tried NAMCO and they didn't even know what I was talking about

I've seen it advertised in the mail order swimming pool supply catalogs.
Leslie's, for one, has it. I can get you a phone number/info if you're
interested.


Mark Parenti

Try 1111.81, especially 3491.

    I had a similar problem what I did was make a fitting that I could
    hook a compressor up to I run the compressor until air starts to bubble
    out of the drain at that point I shut the valve off. I have not had a
    problem yet I use this method for the return lines as well and use no
    antifreeze. The first year I owned my pool I had a pool company come in
    and close it and they did it a similar way but charged $175.00 I bought
    all the fittings for about $20.00 
    Tom

I'm starting to get quotes from pool companies.  Right now I'm leaning towards a
gunite but didn't realize before that you can get a lined pool in various shapes
other than rectangular.  Because of the way the pool will be situated
rectangular just won't look right.   Anyone have current recommendations for
pool contractors in the Hudson area?  I'd like to hear good and bad experiences
- via email if necessary.

	I'd also like to hear about costs from people who have had pools
installed in the last year or so.

Thanks,

George

    George,

    If you are in MA, not NH, try talking with Mike at Recreation World
    on Route 9 in Natick, MA.  He has been in business a long time and
    is really good at his work.  He put in our above ground pool over 
    15 years ago and it is still standing.  We expect to talk with him
    on putting in an in-ground sometime in the future for easier use 
    now that we are heading into our golden years!

    justme....jacqui

Thanks Jacqui,  I should have specified Hudson, NH.

George

    In ground pools come in various makes and models. I put one in about 3
    years ago.  Heres what I found you can get:
    
      1) An above ground pool put in a hole in the ground.
      2) An in ground pool with Steel Walls...sand bottom or grout bottom
      3) An in ground pool with cement walls....sand bottom or grout bottom
      4) An in ground pool with cement walls....cement bottom
      5) A gunnite pool....all cement skim coated with a plaster
    
    The first 4 are liner pools. There are as many types as there are
    installers. I would recommend that you look at as many pools as you
    can. Don't look at new installations. They all look great when new.
    Ask the installers to provide you with a list of installations that
    were put in several years ago. You can then tell whose pool is going to
    last.  I went with a cement wall pool / cement bottom. I am in sputhern
    Ma.
    
    Steve

    I once saw mention of a do-it-yourself in ground pool.  I thought I saw
    a string in this notes conference but can't find it now. Does anyone have
    any info or experience with this?
    
    Thanks,
    Bill

    	I just saw a how-to book at Home Depot on this. They also had one
    on spas/hot tubs too. Other than that, a trip to the library may yield
    something worth while.
    
    	Ray

    
    I'm not sure where you live, but out here in Arizona, where we have a
    lot of "in ground pools" (actually it's kinda humorous to see them
    called that, when you say pool out here, it is assumed that's what you
    mean), more and more people are acting as the general contractor on
    their own pools.  All a pool company really does for you is act as a
    general, so if you have the time to go find your own subs and work
    them, you can save 25-50% on the cost of the pool.
    
    Bruce

>    I once saw mention of a do-it-yourself in ground pool.  I thought I saw
>    a string in this notes conference but can't find it now. Does anyone have
>    any info or experience with this?

	I can't say that I've heard of a specific 'do-it-yourself' inground 
	pool kit, but I have personally bought and installed a inground pool.
	It was like option 2 of .12

	2) An in ground pool with Steel Walls...sand bottom or grout bottom


	I sub-contracted the digging of the hole, and I sub-contracted the 
	installation of the 'grout' (really vermiculite) bottem. The remainder
	I did myself, which was:

		Installing the steel walls.
		Pouring the cement ring around the walls.
    		Installing the plumbing pipes.
		leveling and grading the area in the pool bottem (prep
		work before vermiculite instalation).
		Installing the liner and filling the pool.
		Installing the pool pump and filter, plus electrical.
 
	I think I could have done the bottem too. I was a little
	nervous about working with the vermiculite, but now that
	I have, I would have done that myself too.

	I was lucky to find a pool dealer that was going out of 
	business so I saved about 60% over what a fully-installed
	pool would have been at the time.

	This inground pool is located indoors and is heated mostly by solar.
	I did this installation over a two year span and have been using the
	pool for almost three years.


		    Bill

    We are new owners of an old concrete pool. The paint is flaking off in
    certain spots around the pool. Can the spots be 'spot painted' after
    water or sandblasting to get off the loose paint?...or does the whole
    pool need to be "blasted" and painted as a whole?....would sandblasting the
    old paint be the way to go?..or would water blasting to remove the
    loose stuff be acceptable before painting?....i'm bringing these
    questions to you people as we seem to be getting way too wide a variety
    of answers from the pool repair people.....some are saying you have to
    paint the whole pool as a whole...some are saying you can spot
    painting...of course cost is always an issue and we'd be happy to DIY
    if we knew the best way to go.....as it is now, we're being quoted $350 
    to just 'water blast' the thing..and $775 to water blast and paint it....
    having no experience at all with this, I'm trying my best to research 
    the best way to go...any advice given here is appreciated..thanks.../karen

    Is it concrete or gunite?   I think that will matter on the paint
    removal process.   I was thinking of painting my gunite because
    of stains and fade but after talking to a relative in the paint
    buisness I decided not to.   Reasons like yours (needing to repaint).
    
    I think some of the paints are also considered hazardous material
    so disposal of the chips could be a pain.      I'm not sure where
    you are located but a new pool supply place just opened in Shrewsbury
    MA.  RT 9 in the quinsigamond plaza called leslie's.   They are
    a national chain/cataloque company.      In there brochure they
    mention having informational brochures on painting and also acid
    washing.   FYI there water based paint is $29.99 a gallon.  They
    also have Deck-O-Seal for the coping which I have had a real hard
    time finding

    
    I would suggest talking with several pool companies.  One that
    I like is Recreation World in Natick on Rte. 9.  They might also
    have a branch is Worcester.  Mike has always been good with his
    business dealing with us.  Of course, he installed our above-
    ground pool over 15 years ago.

    justme....jacqui

    I can't say 'for certain' if the pool is concrete or gunite..but i
    believe it is concrete.....i think the pool is at least 20 years old 
    which probably pre-dates gunite....plus..the part where the paint is 
    chipping off, reveals concrete beneath...we have called various pool
    companies and they've given us differing information, which is why i
    was hoping that someone in here could help us....i will call the people
    you've mentioned though and see if they can shed some light on the
    paint situation...........thanks../k

    if it looks like concrete its probably gunite. thats what
    is used for pools.
    
    now to your question. its probably all up to "how you want it to
    look and wear". First, a gunite should probably never be painted.
    once you do you have to keep it up, or,,,
    If you think you'll get 10 or so years out of the plumbing etc,
    then i'd have the paint blasted off and re-recoated , with a 
    thin coat of gunite.
    
    I went thru the process of determining if that what i wanted to do
    last year, and i wound up taking the cheap way out for now and 
    had a acid wash. figure it will last for another few years.
    did it for staining. ~600 +300 for water.
    
    btw. the place with the best line/estimate i think was
    aqua-marine(or somthing like that) tweksbury i think.
    said they do a ton of them every year. the guy who came out
    seemed to know his business. (i would hope so). i think he
    quoted me ~1200.

     I am thinking about having an above ground pool installed. Does
    anybody have any price quotes? I am even looking at the oval shaped
    pools as well as the round ones. Is there a standard size for these
    pools?
    
      Any help will be appreciated.
    
    Chris

    Do a dir/tit=pool.  There are numerous pool notes in this conference.
    

     I am looking for more updated info...anot from 1987 or 1988.

> I am looking for more updated info...anot from 1987 or 1988.

	It's no excuse for needing to *create* a new topic.  Replying
	to the appropriate *existing* topic will work much better.

	FWIW, you may actually want the Consumers conference, since
	you really aren't asking a HomeWork type question, but
	a Consumer type (ie. just want prices for a product) question.

	Here are some topics from the Consumer conference .....
	(and my guess is the couple of replies 1158 and 1167
	are pointers to topic 661 :-)

   661  WORDS::BADGER        17-APR-1987    22  swimming pools
  1158  FLYSQD::MONTVILLE    15-JUN-1988     3  Pool time!!!!
  1167  SAVAGE::FRAZIER      23-JUN-1988     1  pool time 2

    
    
    We recently bought a house with a 20' x 40' inground pool.  We plan to 
    replace the patio bricks in the spring.  For a solution, we're considering
    either concrete, new patio bricks or maybe pressure treated wood.  The
    area around the pool is about 10 feet on each site before it meets the
    lawn.
    
    Has anyone replaced the pool patio materials lately?  If so what did
    you use as the solution?  How much did it cost (if you don't mind
    saying or at least giving an estimate) and who did the work - you or
    a contractor?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Jennifer

FWIW

- PT wood may check and splinter.  It also shrinks (some REALLY shrink).  
  You'd have to screw it down - nails would pull up.  In my opinion, not a 
  good choice with bare feet.

- Concrete is a good general-purpose material - strong, long lasting.
  It can get hot.  I've seen quotes around $3-4/ sq ft.  Concrete
  with pebbles, colors, etc. would be more expensive.

- Bricks certainly are very attractive, but I think you'll find the
  price to be very high.  They could heave from frost causing high
  and low spots and could crack from the frost.

I'm going thru the same thought process as we speak.

Chris

    
    re .1:
    
    I've heard that using concrete could be a problem if you run into
    any "underground" pipe problems...the concrete has to be dug up whereas
    bricks could just easily be removed...it doesn't really seem like there
    is a good alternative at all - thoughts on that?
    
    Chris, have you made a decision on what you'll go with?
    
    Jennifer

       	I know someone that has a PT deck around the pool and splinters do
    happen. You could probably put some of that fake grass carpet over it,
    but then the sun would take it's toll on it. It would also hold the
    water and probably not be the greatest thing for the deck, even if it
    was PT.

    	My in-laws have the pebbled cement. It's OK, but very rough. They
    did have a leaky pipe they had to dig up. They simply tunneled under the
    cement to do it. Once back-filled and re-seeded, you'd never know it was
    dug up.

    	The drawback with the cement is that you want a fairly rough
    surface so it's not slippery when wet, but then if you trip/fall, the
    scrapes are like instant road rash. 

    	I don't think that the ideal material exists yet. Either the sun
    will destroy it, or it's too expensive to be practical (i.e. cement
    with non-skid bathroom tile).

    	Just a thought, but one might consider trying the rubber roofing
    material that they use for RV roofs. I believe one of the brands is
    called Sno-coat. It's painted on, it's white, it's designed to be UV
    exposed, and it doesn't appear that it would be slippery when wet. I'm
    just not sure how well it would hold up to foot traffic and if it would
    adhere well to cement. Might be worth while to buy a qt. and try a small 
    area.

    	Ray

    My brother-in-law just built a deck out of that new "fake" wood - I
    think it's made out out recycled plastic and ?.  He used this material
    because of the concern for splinters.  It's heavier than all get out,
    and can't be used structurally ( he used PT for the deck frame).  I'm
    not sure how it holds up near a pool though (slippery, rot, etc.).
    
    You may want to check a local lumber yard (not HD) for
    info/availability.
    
    Dan

    Concrete pavers are cheaper than brick, and more durable.  They have
    this advantage over poured concrete: you can remove them to get access
    to underground pipes.

    
    I believe the "fake wood" is called Trex, and it's made by Mobil. 
    Coldwell's in Berlin, MA is (or at least was) a distributer.
    
    Bill

    The Manchester Union Leader paper on Saturday (Sep. 2, 95) has a
    article on Trex Wood-Polymer Decking (fake wood) about someone that
    used it around a pool.
    
            per the article: Trex won't rot or crack - it resist moisture
    and has excellent traction even when wet. It is made from recycled grocery
    bags and waste wood fiber. Will not splinter. Requires virtually no
    maintenance. It doesn't need painted or stain and weathers to a
    pretty shade of gray. It sells for about the same as a good grade of
    cedar. Use epoxy deck screws and counter-sinking them. Clean cuts are made
    with a skill saw.

    Thanks for the info on Trex...do you still happen to have the copy of
    the article or know where I can get a copy?  I'd love to see it!
    
    

    
    I have the article if anyone would like a copy - send me mail.....

    	Evidently they must have gotten the cost down. When this stuff
    first came out it was big $$$. Sounds like it would solve many of the
    problems though.
    
    	Ray

    I have just purchased a house with an inground pool which was fully
    and correctly maintained ( so I'm told ) right up to me moving in.
    It certainly looked clean and the water was clear and blue.
    At the weekend a friend with pool experience helped me "close" the
    pool for winter. We followed advice from pool specialist store and
    added 5 gals of liquid chlorine + 2 gals of algae control winterising
    liquid.....followed up by filtering for 8 hrs...We then completed the
    process by draining some water, blowing out the inlets / skimmer line
    and plugging etc etc. We ran out of time saturday night so left the
    cover till sunday....this is when I noticed that the water was green.
    
    Took a sample to the pool place....they tested and said that:-
    
    	a) It was a little low on overall alkalinity but nothing to lose
           sleep over.
    
        b) Considering volume of chlorine added, it was "lowish"  i.e. NOT
           at shock level.
    
    Advised I put 2 bags of pool shock into the pool ( pre mixed in water)
    I did this but water still looks green...maybe a little less obvious,
    it's hard to tell. Remember that I couldn't filter etc as I'd already
    blown & plugged the lines.
    
    What should I do ?   Do I need to open the lines etc etc and try more
    chlorine / algae control / pool-clear etc etc using the pump / filter ?
    What damage can happen by just pulling over the cover and cleaning
    well next year at opening ?  Can the suface get stained doing this ?
    
    If anyone can help me understand *why* it went green in the 1st place
    and *how* to get it blue again I'd be most gratefull.
    
    [ yes, I am a virgin pool-owner ! 
    
    Trevor 
    

    
    Re -1   Forgot to mention, it's a gunnite pool ( don't know if spelling
            is correct here ! ).  I'm told this is worse than vinyl for
            staining etc.
    
    Trevor

    
    It was clear Saturday and green Sunday? And you added lots of chlorine
    Saturday?
    
    Sounds like the chlorine reacted with something already in the water
    (iron? some mineral?). This only happened once to me, when I first
    filled a new pool. There are additives that address this problem;
    ask at a pool store.
    

    
    Thanks for your response. What do you think about dumping chemicals in 
    the water *without* the pump circulating it though ? 
    And...does anyone have info on the "damage / staining" risks if I don't
    get it back to blue ?
    
    Trevor

    
    If I were going to dump in more chemicals, I'd reopen the pool so I
    could use the pump/filter.
    
    I believe the additive I had in mind binds to the iron/mineral that is
    causing the green, creating a compound that will be large enough to
    either settle out or be caught by the filter.
    
    I have no experience with Gunite pools.
    

    Thanks, guess I'll just have to open up again.....oh dear !
    Never mind, better that than having a major problem next summer.
    
    Thanks for your help
    Trevor

    
    
    Re: the green water problem. I got advice that the water in Milford 
    ( where I live ) has lots of minerals etc, also it was probable that
    there was a high copper content. Sure enough, I got a sample tested
    last night and the theory was confirmed. Bought a bottle of the 
    chemical recommended by the store ( where the water was tested ).
    They said it was not neccessary to re-open the pool / turn on the
    filter/pump etc as this chemical would "clear" the water adequately
    without it. Too dark for me to see this morning but my wife just told
    me it is still green.....may need more....may not work !
    The jury is still out !
    
    Trevor

    
    I have a pressure treated deck around my pool that was installed 6
    years ago. I haven't had a splinter problem to date although I have
    used Thompson's Wood Preservative to seal the wood surfaces every other   
    year. 
    
    Paul

    i'll bet ya that the previous owners did not use chlorine to 
    maintain their water. did you ask ?
    
    if your not sure, and the fact that you added chlorine and 
    the water turned, tells me they used somy type of bacquicl,or
    what i use biogard softswim.
    
    i was thinking of changing this spring, but still had a fair
    amount of softswim in the water when opening. the dealer told 
    me if i went to put chlorine in the water "it would trun green
    due to the softswim chemical in the water". !!!
    
    to test it, was to take a 5 gal bucket of pool water and add
    the chlorine. if it turned then that spells trouble. there
    is ways to get the old BQ disinfectent (sp) out of the water.
    
    i cant think of another reason water would turn by adding
    chlorine. especially if you did not add any tap water.
    
    

The fact that you experienced the green when you thought you had a relatively
good dose of Cl in there is somewhat confusing to me. My experience has been
that if my Cl level is low (such as after/during a long rainy spell in the
summer) a shock treatment will cause the water to turn green in a few hours
(which will then clear with about 12 hours of filtration). I had read
somewhere that you generally don't see algae in your water when it's alive
and well - that it's "transparent" in low concentrations, and that you
only see green if the concentration gets too high or you kill off a large
quantity of it (the green being more prominent in the dead algae).

Now, I can't provide any more scientific theory to go with this than
what I've stated, but that's the experience I've had.

With my (inground. liner) pool, if it gets green after the pre-winter closing 
shock, I just continue closing as is. It's generally pretty green by the time
I open it in the spring anyway, and it always cleans up (filters) just fine.

    Well, glad to report that the problem is solved and my problem is
    solved and my pool is a healthy blue again. There was no algae or
    other wierd things happening....turns out that the small ammount of
    water I put into the pool after blowing / plugging the lines was high
    in copper and minerals ( very high ). I hadn't mentioned that I added
    water in earlier notes...had no idea that it could be a factor !
    Anyway, the lady at Mcarthy Pools seemed VERY confident she knew the
    problem ( and even told me Milford water was infamous for this ) so..
    .....I added the small bottle of chemical she sold me, didn't need
    to re-open the pool & use pump etc....and 24hrs later it was blue.
    I'm impressed. I *really* did not believe that such a small ammount
    of this stuff could work !  Added to the fact I didn't need to use
    filtration.
    Just one caution if anyone else meets this problem, it takes a full
    24 hrs to judge, in fact the last 3-4hrs really showed a colour change.
    Up to that point I could not see any effect ( suppose lack of water
    movement would contribute to this time reqmt ).
    
    Re -1, I'm not sure about the implication of closing a vinyl liner pool
    when water is green....as I pointed out in 1st note I'm a "pool virgin"
    and needed others to help with advice, the one I was following was that
    a gunite pool is very likely to stain ( from the water ) and the
    likelihood that ( next summer )I may have to fully drain the pool and
    clean with an acid ( boracic ? ). I was in bit of a panic !
    
    Incidently I'm not familiar with the content of the chemical bottle
    other than it is acid based. I'm sure other noters will know what is
    in it...and how it works.
    
    Thanks for your reponses and ideas....
    
    Trevor  

    I would appreciate any advice on our current pool situation.  We bought
    a house late October last year with an inground pool that better 
    resembled a frog pond (it was a foreclosure situation).  
    We relocated the frogs and winterized the pool with the aid of a 
    professional company.
    
    However, now that we have taken the cover off, there are TONS of
    leaves at the bottom of the pool.  If the water was clearer, we
    could better able to see how much.  Is there a way or a machine
    that can easily suction all that gunk off the floor.  With a scooper
    we'll be doing this all summer.
    
    Thank you.
    
    Tracy (first time home-owner)

    did the prior owners leave you any equipment? Hopefully you have 
    pump and filter for a start! Also you should have a pool vacuum,
    consisting of a hose which attaches to the skimmer, and long handle
    and a brush which attaches to the other end of the hose.
    
    Put the skimmer basket in place, start the pump running, connect the
    hose etc to the skimmer and start sucking up the leaves! If you can 
    turn off the main drain so that all the water being pumped is through
    the skimmer, you'll get better pressure. Every few minutes, you'll 
    need to empty the skimmer. Oh, and try to keep the hose filled with
    water while you do that so the pump doesn't have to suck wind each
    time.
    
    If there's tons of algae in the pool too, you will stir that up as you
    start to vacuum, then you won't be able to see what you're doing. So
    start at the deep end until you can't see the bottom, then work in
    shallower water where you can see. Once you can't see anywhere, you'll
    have to wait a couple of days, leaving the pump running and
    cleaning/flushing/backwashing your filter as appropriate.
    
    [At the end of the summer of 1995, I let the algae in my pool build up
    to the point where it wasn't worth trying to clean it up and use it
    again that summer (too busy and didn't take quite enough care :-( ).
    So I simply close the pool for the winter and let it all settle. Last
    spring I took a couple of weeks to clear all the algae with the vacuum 
    before I wasted any money on chemicals. But it was clean last summer
    and this spring things look better.]
    
    - Richard.

    Thank you for the quick reponse Richard.  No, unfortunately
    they took all the equipment, so we will be picking up the pump
    and vacuum.  We will be picking these items up shortly and will
    try your idea.
    
    Thank you for the suggestion.
    
    Regards,
    
    Tracy

if it is a guinite I had a similar experience.  But since it had been left
uncleaned for whatever period of time I found it easier to drain the pool and
then remove all the debris.    The walls and flooring were stained real bad so 
I cleaned it all with muriatic acid.   brought in 4 tanker loads of pond water
tossed in shock treatment and everything is fine now.

    This may sound silly, but someone had mentioned to me that there
    might be problems with draining the pool entirely???

They took the pump/filter with them?  Oh, a foreclosure - were the 
previous owners still living in the house and just carted the 
pump/filter off with them?    

Do you have any idea how long its been since the pool was working?  
There could be some problems with the lines etc.

Since you bought it in Oct, and it looked like a pond then, I would guess that
it had not been used that summer at least.

If it was me, I'd try the drain it dry, shovel it out, fill it back up, but 
calling the place that winterized it for you to see if that is the best
approach.  Actually, now that you know how they did the winterizing you may
want to call them back once and see how they open it up in the spring.

Brian J.

    Does the pool have a vinyl liner? If so, draining it completely will 
    probably require replacing the liner too. Once the water is gone, the
    liner will shrink and you will have severe difficult getting it back
    into shape.
    
    But...is this a pool with shallw & deep ends? If so, you could pump it 
    down to just a few inches in the shallow end, and that would make it
    easier to clear the mess in that half, and will also make it easier to
    see the mess in the deep end. You could even scoop the deep end while
    standing in the shallow end.
    
    And if the pool doesn't have a deep end, then pump down until there's a
    few inches depth on the walls and then sccop from there.
    
    Of course, if the pool doesn't have a liner, then you can ignore all
    this...
    
    - Richard.

    There is a suckie thing that you can get that does the leaves
    quite well and is fairly cheap too.  Check out with a good
    pool company...Recreation World in Natick on RTE 9 East has
    tons of experience with both liners and cement ponds!!

    
    If it's that bad...can't you set the pump to "waste" while using the
    vacuum ?  That way the leaves etc would not be routed through the
    filter...Its already a pain emptying the basket in the skimmer and pump
    without switching off every few minutes to backflush (I'm assuming it's
    a sand filter ?).
    
    Don't know how likely this is but....someone told me they saw a gunite
    pool "floated" out of position after being emptied. The water table was
    high (early season) and the pool lifted after losing the stabalizing
    weight of the water....I'd try not emptying first.
    
    Trevor

    to answer some of the questions:
    
    re .254 - I'm not sure if its guinite 
    
    re .256 - I think the pool is not more than 4/5 years old.  I have
              no reason (based upon neighbors) that it wasn't working
    	      before they took the pump/filter.  The previous
              owners that were foreclosed upon occupied the residence
    	      until December 96/January 96.  The pool was not properly
              winterized that year - but we had it done this past winter
              and had a professional look at it to ensure no major
              damage
    
    re . 257 - yes the pool does have a vinyl liner and we do have
               shallow and deep ends - so even if there is a liner
               you think we can still pump it down enough without
               damaging the liner (i.e., shrinking it??)
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tracy

    As long as you leave a few inches of water across the bottom of 
    the shallow end, only the walls will be exposed and you should be
    o.k. And if the pool is only 4-5 years old, you could probably go
    further but I wouldn't risk it personally.
    
    - Richard.

    We had a "leaf vacuum" when we had our pool. It attached to the regular
    vacuum hose and had a mesh bag attached to a frame with wheels on it.
    As you moved the frame around the bottom of the pool, the majority of
    the leaves went into the bag. We had to stop every few minutes to empty
    the bag, which was a down side to it, but it worked really well when he
    had a lot of leaves in the bottom of the pool. I think these
    attachments are pretty cheap (compared to the hose, handle, pump,
    filter, etc.) Check at a good pool place as jacqui recommended.
    
    Debbie