Conference 7.286::home_work

    This reply is from the guy that planted two trees two years ago
    and after two seasons of looking at one of them without a single
    leaf figured it must be dead and decided to remove it. But for whatever
    it's worth, my advise is to check the branches to make sure they
    are not totally dry, specially the thin ones at the ends which are
    the first to go. If you find these to be dry prune them to where
    the branch still seems to be "healthy". That will keep the tree
    from trying to bring nutrients to a dead branch (or so I was told
    many years ago) and dedicate them to budding. You must consider
    also the type of ground it is planted in. In must cases new trees
    won't do well in rocky ground unless they are meant to grow in such
    an environment. I think that's what happened to one of my trees
    mentioned above. One other thing I have been told not to do is
    fertilizing a newly planted tree. I don't know why, but I guess
    it's because the root system is too delicate to handle the chemicals.
    You could also consult the note PICA::GARDEN. They may have more
    and better ideas on how to diagnose and treat your tree.

      Sorry to say this John, but your maple is well on it's way to
    dying and the crabapple isn't far behind. What is probably happening
    is that the trees have run out of water. 
      You see, when the tree is first planted (and for some time after)
    the roots are not spread out or developed. It's really hard for
    the tree to get water, both because of the roots not being developed
    and because they are relatively close to the surface.
    
    	Newly planted trees and shrubs should get VERY regular watering,
    on the order of several gallons twice a week (if no rain).
    
    	You may be able to save the trees by giving LOTS of water every
    other day until they look MUCH better. Then back off to once a week.
    It's worth a try anyway.
    
    					Kenny

    	Agreed.  Water those suckers every day, morning and night.  That's
    the best you can do for them.  With the condition they're in now I'd
    put water into the ground 'til you've got MUD!.  :-)
    
    Rich

    This reminds me of how I got a whole bunch of seemingly dead shrubs
    for next to nothing last summer.
    There were about 20 of them discarded at the old Keely Farms on
    Amherst St in Nashua (now defunct). I said I'd take them away since
    they were going to be thrown out (so I was told). She said fine.
    I took the best ones that I could fit in the trooper, 16 to be
    exact and built a couple 4'x8'x8" open boxes and let them soak
    for a few days. I planted them after that and lo and behold all
    but 2 are alive today!
    Moral is - It ain't over till it's over, even them, it ain't over.
    Water the hell out of them every day. If they show no life next
    spring, throw them out.
    John

    For what it's worth here is my experience with a red maple that
    shriveled up. I have heard that when it comes to a red maples
    it is fussy to where it is planted. You can water it all you want
    but if it doesn't like that spot it's gone! You can tell a tree
    is dead or on it's way out by taking your finger nail and scraping
    a little of the bark. If there are signs of greenish wood under
    then the tree is still alive. How much longer you will not know.
    You could also have a fungus for which you can spray the tree. I
    did both of these things last year and still lost my $135 tree.
    I waiting until this year just to check the bark and see if it
    was alive. 
        I ended up digging a hole 5 feet away and planted a summit ash
    which is doing excellant. Unless you want color Norway maples do
    good.
               good luck
               Ed
                                       

    Thanks for the responses so far.  BTW, the maple is a Norway Maple!
    At first, I was watering the heck out of it every day, and thought
    that maybe I was drowning the roots so I cut back to 2, 3, and even
    4 days.  One day, the leaves closer to the ground seemed to get
    a little color back, but they turned brown again shortly after.
    
    I don't believe they're dead yet, and I'll keep watering them at
    least every other day, and every day when it's very hot and sunny.
    What have I got to lose (except $240)??!!
    
    Thanks again.
    
    P.S.  1.  Is there such a thing as drowning the roots?
          2.  Someone suggested pruning the branches a bit.  Any yes'
              or no's?

    I HAD A CRIMSON MAPLE AT MY LAST HOUSE WHICH STARTED (AFTER 3 YEARS)
    DYING FROM THE HEIGHT OF 6 FT AND UP !  BELOW 6 FT WAS FINE.  AFTER
    INVESTIGATION, I FOUND THAT THERE WAS SOME TYPE OF BUG (I DON'T
    REMEMBER THE NAME) WHICH HAD ATTACHED ITSELF TO THE TREE AT THAT
    LEVEL (6 FEET) AND WAS TAKING ALL THE MINERALS/WATER/ETC FOR ITSELF.
    THEREFORE KILLING THE TREE FROM THAT HEIGHT.  THE ANSWER WAS TO
    CUT THE TREE BELOW THAT LEVEL.  IT THEN GREW BACK (AROUND THAT AREA)
    AND IS BACK AT ABOUT 10 HEALTHY FEET.   MAYBE THAT WILL HELP ?
    
    BOB O.
    

    
>    P.S.  1.  Is there such a thing as drowning the roots?
 
	Yes, that's why drainage is so important to both indoor and outdoor
horticulture.

         2.  Someone suggested pruning the branches a bit.  Any yes'
              or no's?

	Here's a yes-- any time a plant is moved or the number of roots is
diminished (as in transplanting) a commensurate number of branches should
be pruned back so as not to tax the root system while it is recovering.


	Good luck with your trees...				--Mike

Ever call your doctor on the phone and try to explain your symptoms to him?  
Usually he won't prescribe over the phone, right?  I think we've got a similar 
problem here -- there are so many possible problems that we're all shooting in 
the dark...

My suggestion is to take a twig off each with a couple of leaves and go back 
to the nursery where you bought the trees.  Ask THEM to tell you what to do.
If they're too far away or too unhelpful try the County Extension Service (or 
whatever they call it in Mass., that's the N.Y. title).  They have all kinds 
of civil servants who get paid lots of $$$ to answer these kinds of questions.

Good luck!!!


			Andy Ostrom

                            
                      What to do with 500  5in. dia. pines


I have recently bought a 24 acre parcel of land here in Maine. My plans
are to build a log home in about 2 yrs. In the meantime I've decided to
groom the property for aesthetic reasons. The lot is 90% White Pine.
 
I've been educating myself in "The Care of  Small Wood Lots" and been
finding out some very interesting things about a potentially important
resource (TREES).

Did you know that as a rule of thumb, for pine trees, if your goal
is to grow pine trees to a diameter of "X" in. they should be spaced
"X" ft. apart.

This leads to the title of this note. I don't have an accurate count yet
but I estimate there are at least 1,000 white pines in neat rows on about
1/3 of the property. The trees are 5-6 in. in diameter and are spaced about
5 ft. apart. If I cut every other tree I end up with trees that could grow
to 10-12 in. in diameter. However, I don't want to do it until I can find
a use for all the trees I cut. Seems like an awful waste to me.
The trees are about 12-15 ft. tall with perhaps 6-8 ft. usable log.

Some of the ideas I have come up with are:

1) For a fence. But pine is no good to put in the ground. And besides I would
   only need so much fence.

2) As walls for a wood/utility shed. This appears to be the best idea. If I
   go this way are there any opinions on whether I should use the whole log
   or have them sliced in half and use them as siding.

3) LOOKING FOR MORE IDEAS !


GERRY DUBE

    
    use it for firewood... if it's cured long enough it will burn ok
    in a fireplace, or a campfire (while you're building your cabin
     8^) )   it's probably not very good for use as siding or lumber,
    unless you don't care how long it lasts
    
    

Get in touch with the county or state and ask about "Tree harvesting" 
operations.  Probably one of the paper mills would be interested in 
coming to have a look and see if they can get enough off your land to 
make it worthwhile for them.  If so, you can make a deal about what gets 
cut and what gets left, where they'll make roads and so forth.  Then 
they come in, harvest your land and pay you for it.  If you have them 
place the road where you want to put a driveway, you've saved a few 
bucks into the bargain.

I did that with a small lot (40 acres) in NH, but I had some huge
hemlock and a fairish amount of hardwood that interested them. (This was
for a lumber company.)  The remaining trees had a better lot to grow on,
and the lot was prepped for building. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Cut the top 8 feet off, go to the nearest supermarket parking lot
    and sell them for X-mas trees.

    I second .3 you would make far more off them selling as christmas
    trees than for pulp.
    
    -j
    

    NOT FOR FIREWOOD!
    Unless you want your new house to have that burnt smell for a while.
    Or worst yet, the chimney will get clogged up a lot faster.
    Voice of experience.

    Bull pucky.   I burned pine (all pine and nothing but pine) for
    7 years.   That's all you can get in Colorado (unless you want to
    pay $300 a cord for trucked in flatland scrub oak).   Let the pine
    dry for at least TWO years, and burn hot (not dampered way down)
    and you'll be just fine.

    last:
    I stand corrected. BUT, I do not recall him saying anything about
    letting it dry out for two years , or for any amount for that matter.
    The reason I said that was because I did not know how long I should
    let it dry so the following fall I started to burn it and bboooooyyy!
    wat a smell!  The smoke bellowed out of the fireplace like the titanic,
    and yes the vent was open :-).  Just a bad experience I guess.
                                                   al

    White pines don't make very good Christmas trees, they're usually
    too sparse for most people's taste.
    
    I also think you need a special permit if you are transporting more
    than 2 cut trees.  This supposedly prevents tree thieves.
    
    How about selling them to a landscaper?
    
    -al

    Well I'm back from the holiday and had a great turkey day.
    
    I thank you all for your replies and here's mine in reply.
    
    Firewood: No to that since there is enough hardwoods not to have
    to worry about creosot or drying for a extended period of time.
    
    Pulpwood: This is a possibility but I haven't done very much
    investigating on this one. I need to find out how much I need to
    make it worthwhile and if there is a required diameter size.
    
    Xmas trees: No to that. There is no market for White pine trees
    in this neck of the woods. Firs are the thing.
    
    Walls to shed/utility cabin: .1 had a concern of how long would
    it last. I have a question: If I let it air dry let say for a year
    and then treat it (paint it with some preservative) won't it do
    the trick? These logs would have been peeled however.
    
    Thanks again
    
    gerry

Two thoughts:

If you do go the pulpwood route, or any other route which involves other people 
taking the trees out, be prepared for an awful mess when they leave.

If you want to peel the bark of the logs, cut them in the spring or summer, 
when the cambium layer (between wood and bark) is active.  In the winter, this 
layer is dormant, and the bark sticks to the wood.

Paul

	I am a new homeowner looking for some help.  I have a neighbor in
	back of my house who owns a dog and a very messy yard.  There is a
	small amount of uncleared land (small trees and bushes) along our
	property lines, but it is not enough to block the view of his
	yard.  Our property line is about 90 feet long.

	I want to clear the land and put in some shrubs/bushes along the
	back of my yard.  My question is what kind os shrubs/bushes would
	be best for my needs.  I would like something that could be
	planted at a good height or would grow very quickly.  I need
	something that would stay green year round.  The thicker and
	taller the better.  I would like to block as much of the view AND
	sound as possible.

	Any information on what to plant, when to plant, where to buy, and
	price estimates would be appreciated.  This neighbor with his ugly
	yard and loud dog are starting to bother me!!

    Where are you located?
    

I live in Hudson, Mass.

check PICA::GARDEN

Depending on your tastes, Hemlocks are one of the faster growing trees.  White
pines are also nice not to mention a score of others.

If you say TOH a couple of weeks ago, they planted some real nice pines that had
to be in the 10' tall range.  Only cost $250 APIECE!!!  Sometimes that show
really disgusts me - they did some landscaping and there were so many trees and
schrubs...

[how many were there?]

There were so many they brought them in a MOVING VAN!!!  I'll bet the tab was 
well over 5K.

-mark

    Hemlocks grow like weeds and are evergreens too! Sounds like you
    may have found the answer.
    
    In the Hudson area I suggest the Stow Branch Nursery on Rt. 117
    in Stow. I have found Al's prices to be the best around.
    
    Good luck with your neighbor.
    
    Richard

    White pines sometimes get a bit sparse for a privacy hedge.  At
    Weston Nurseries in Hopkinton, a 6ft white pine runs about $100.  Extra
    if they plant it, but then they guarantee it.  I would also plant
    your new trees staggered like:
    
        *   *   *   *   *
      *   *   *   *   *
    
    This will make for a thicker foliage to see thru, but it's going
    to be expensive.
    
    -al

    
    If you've only got 90' to worry about it may not be that expensive.
    Most of these trees have to be planted 5-6' (or more depending on
    what you get).  If the dog is especially loud and annoying, consider
    filing a nuisance complaint if you don't care about good relations
    with this particular neighbor.  Other neighbors may share your
    feelings.
    
    Phil

I've found nurseries are VERY easy to negotiate with.  Go to your favorite 
place, ask for a price quote and no matter how low it is say something like,
"Gee, that's going to cost a lot for n-trees" where n is a number greater than
just a couple.  I'll bet that they will immediately say something like, "Well,
for that quantity we can make an adjustment".  That usually amounts to either a
free tree or two OR they'll know a couple buck off the per tree price!

-mark

    
    Forgot to mention that the best time to plant is in the fall.  I'm
    sure you don't want to wait that long though.
    

    For a temporary screen you can plant popular trees they are extremely
    fast growing and will block the view the first summer. The down
    side is they are fairly ratty looking after about 5 years and die
    after about 15 years. The main plus is they will give you the privacy
    you want NOW and give time for a more attractive screen to be planted
    and grow to suitable dimensions. I went this route for simular reasons
    planted shrubs where I wanted them with the populars behind them,
    after the shrubs got established out came the populars(lotsa firewood).
    Another plus for using populars is they are dirt cheap in bare root
    form and grow anywhere.
    
    -j
    

    re.10 Another fast growing tree is russian olive. I dont reccomend
    them as they are a real Bit(# to trim or remove because of their
    nasty 1.5" thorns which will puncture leather gloves and boots
    like a hot knife thru butter. They are sure to stop anyone from
    walking thru them though 8^)
    -j

    
    You should strive to get a large discount from a dealer when purchasing
    many plants/trees.  My brother went to a dealer, asked to see the
    manager, and told him that he was interested in buying a large number
    of plants ($1200 worth).  The manager immediately told him that
    he could take 50% off all prices if he spent over $600.  So don't
    feel as though you're asking too much from a store when pricing.
    Many businesses buy plants in large quantities and get a corporate
    type discount.  If the first dealer you go to doesn't knock off
    major dollars, go to another (you could save up to $1000 or more).
    I would tend to deal with a person who has the authority to give
    major discounts, not just store personnel.  If management tells
    you no, walk away.  Most stores will not like to lose $1000 - $5000
    worth of business.
    
    Rick

	Thanx for all the help.  In the spring I am going to visit
	a nursery and ask about the different recomendations.  I have
	never been good at talking down a price, but I think I will
	give it a try.  Meanwhile, the snow seems to have calmed the dog,
	and his yard almost look good.

	PKRONK

    
    
    
    
      Just gotta ask...
    
      Why not a fence?  Keeps the dog out and you'll be able to develop
      private patio garden!   May even be cheaper.  
    
      Should look good with the deck you'll want in three years.  8^)
    
      Rick.
    
    
    
      

    I had the same problem with nasty neighbors who had 2 big dogs.
     My solution was to build a wooden fence and then plant shrubs,
    trees and flowers on my side of the fence to soften it visually.
     I built the fence myself  (6 1/2 feet tall) using pressure treated
    posts, 2x4 horizontal rails between the posts and 1x6" (or 1x8",
    I can't remember) nailed side-by-side vertically.  I stained the
    whole fence brown and it provided a nice backdrop for all the
    ornamental shrubs I planted in front of it.  The advantage was that
    I had instant privacy in one weekend (very satisfying).  You could
    buy stockade sections if you don't want to build the fence from
    scratch.

    I planted a hedge to provide some privacy from the street.
    I used a plant called "Tall hedge" which I got from the Guerny
    calalog.  The bare root plants look like little shoots when you
    plant them, but in a sunny location the plants will grow over
    3 feet a year.  This was an inexpensive solution that has worked
    well for me.
    
    The hedge is not evergreen, but it serves its purpose.

    re .17
    
    Does Tall Hedge grow 3 ft./yr every year or just the first?  Can
    it be shaped like privet hedge?  Where can I get a Guerny catalog,
    my local nursery never heard of Tall Hedge (probably goes by more
    than one name)?

    I have a question and good not find anything else about here in
    the directory.
    
    I am planning on doing some major landscape to my new house.
    This is a split-level house with the over hang.  I would like
    to plant some types of shrubs under the over hang, I do want them
    to grow to big and would prefer not cutting them down every year.
    
    Please list any reccomendations as to what type of shrubs to use,
    I would also like to plant some red-maples as well in the front
    yard.
    
    Could you also include places to purchase these without having
    to second mortgage the house in the Soutern Worcester County area.

                                                    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob Montville
    

    PICA::GARDEN will be much more help to you with your questions.

    Go to CENTRAL MASS GARDEN CENTER  in Lunenburg Mass and ask for
    Fran       say Ed Gosselin sent you.
    If you bring in pictures of your yard they will help you landscape
    it or give suggestions.

    Planting shrubs under overhangs in not generally a good idea because
    they don't get watered when it rains.
    
    Carol

    re .3
    Depends on how close to the foundation, or how much overhang you
    have. Usually it's no more that 2 feet. You want to plant at least
    that far away from the foundation for future growth.
    If anything, don't plant *directly* under the overhang 'cause they'll
    get pounded from the running water. (unless you have gutters, that
    is)
    John

    Bob,
    
    Go to Charlton Nursery on RT31. He will create a plan for your house
    (if you want) and his prices were the lowest that we found.
    
    Joe

    
    	I have a large maple tree that is home to bees, ants, etc. It
    	seems fairly healthly but I'm concerned about the long term
        damage these pests will cause.
    
    	What can I do to protect it?
    
    	I looked in this file for previous notes on trees but was unable 
        to find any.
    
    	Thanks in advance...
    
    

    Check out the gardening notesfile on PICA::GARDEN -- hit KP7 to add
    it to your directory.
               
    Mike

    The bees wont cause any damage to the tree if they have a hive in
    a hollow they will actualy seal the wood preventing further rot.
    Dont know anything about the ants though.
    
    -j

    

    If the ant nest is readily evident, you can do it in fairly easily 
    with supermarket-variety ant spray, such as Ortho. To discourage 
    ants from coming back, you could consider banding the ground around 
    the tree with Diazonin crystals (or spray); this takes more care, 
    and you'd want to consider whether pets or children will be rolling 
    around in it.
    
    On the other hand, trees and insects have coexisted for far longer 
    than Ortho has been in business. Unless it's close enough to your 
    house to risk invasion of the house itself, or there's real evidence 
    of rot or structural damage, you might be better off allowing the 
    tree's own defenses to do the work.

    I just purchased a home and one of trees has a chain embedded
    in it (the old dog chain around the tree problem.)
    What is the best way to get this chain out? I have tried prying
    the chain from the tree, but it seems fairly well embedded.
    
    					James

I just know I'm gonna' get caught again.  Everytime I'm the first one to 
reply to a note it turns out it should have been placed elsewhere, and 
there's my reply screwing up the works.  But there's slight urgency here 
so...

I would suggest two things, both involve leaving the chain there.  Either 
just plain leave it or make a couple of vertical cuts in the chain to cut
it into several smaller pieces. 

The reasoning is this.  Only the outside of a tree is actively growing and 
the bark is most important.  If the chain were shallow enough to rip out 
you would "girdle" the tree.  That is to remove the bark for a complete 360 
degrees around the tree;  this would kill it.  

I don't really think the vertical cuts with a metal cutting blade in a
circular saw would help much but it would make you feel as though the 
strangle hold on your neck were released.  It wouldn't harm the tree much 
either although it might create an entrance for bug damage.  Probably the 
best thing is to cut the chain out where you can and leave the rest alone.  
I think the tree would eventually cover the chain entirely.

Craig

    
    Leave it be. Back in my old neighborhood in CT we had a tree
    that must have been four or five feet thick... hanging out
    on one side was a hunk of hand wrought chain as old as time,
    there was no side of the rest of the chain since it had been
    swallowed many years ago without harming the tree. just take
    a pair of bolt cutters and snip the chain off wherever it is
    exposed.
    
    						* MAC *

    Just don't later on decide that you want to cut it up for firewood
    and come borrow my chain saw !!

	I haven't found another notesfile where this seems more
appropriate, so here goes.
	A year and a half ago, in May, the driveway was widened 
at my house.  In order to do this, they had to negotiate around
a tree.  In cutting into the bank a root of the tree about 2" in 
diameter was cut off - only about 1 foot from the tree.  The bank
was only a foot + high, and I only noticed that one big root.
I'm sure there were some more smaller ones.
	I've been watching the tree ever since.  Last year, I guess
it was too early to tell.  This year I'm concerned.  The tree is a
Maple (not sure what kind - Sugar, Black ... I'll get a tree book and
figure it out).  There are a lot of maples in the neighborhood -
and this one appears less healthy than all the others.  Leaves
haven't gotten as big, or as green.  A few are starting to fall
already.  And it just looks generally thinner than all the others
around.
	Does anyone have suggestions?  I've been trying to call
Bartlett Tree Service, but they don't return my calls.  
	Has anyone ever tried restorative fertilizing for a
damaged tree themselves?  How would I go about doing it?  What
time of year.  I suppose this damage to the tree in May was about 
the worst time it could have been done.
	I'd appreciate suggestions of tree people or home remedies.
I live close to Boston.

Thanks,
Mary

    
    
    The root they cut probably was one of the tree's major roots. What
    is probably happening now is similar to what happens to a tree when
    it is transplanted -- all the energy goes into growing and replacing
    roots that have been damaged.  This happens at the expense of foliage
    and leaving, and is normal -- it can look pretty awful and make
    you think the tree is dying, but it really is normal.
    
    You can fertilize the tree yourself too; in fact it would be a pretty
    good idea, but ideally you should do it in the spring -- you don't
    want to encourage new growth as the tree approaches it's dormant
    period.   The rule of thumb for fertilizing a tree is to measure
    it's bottom trunk caliper -- that is the diameter of the trunk at
    as it enters the ground.  Often times with a big tree, you can put
    a piece of some straight edge on both sides of the trunk, then measure
    the distance between the two.  You then apply a 1/2 pound of 5-10-10
    or 5-10-5 fertilizer for each inch of caliper.  Apply the fertilizer
    by taking a small garden spade or a screwdriver and making holes
    around the drip line of the tree.  If you look up at the tree's
    braches then draw a imaginery circle around the branches grown furthest
    out from the tree trunk, this is the dripline.  
    
    Because of the fact that this is almost August, I'd modify the
    fertilizing, and at this point in time, use 0-10-10 or 0-10-5. The
    first number designates the % of nitrogen, which encourages foliage
    growth.  The remaining elements, Phosphate and Potash support disease
    resistance and root growth.
    
    You can get these fertilizers at many garden shops and almost all
    feed stores.
    
    Also as an FYI, two other good sources of this information are the
    Middlesex County agricultural extension in Concord and Waltham,
    and the Garden notesfile here.
    
    
    
    
   

Fortunately, Maples grow like weeds.  Prune the tree by  about  20%  all around
and evenly.  Pick up a package of Jobi fertilizer spikes at your local hardware
store and use as directed.  In EXTREMELY dry weather, water in  a 10-15' radius
circle  around the base.  Support the tree if the loss of that  root  seems  to
have made it `tippy'.

I have two very healthy Maples that I  transplanted  on  a  whim with almost no
roots at all.  They both were about 20' tall and about 8" diameter.  I followed
the above advice and, basically, left them alone.

Luck,

Dave

	Thanks for the info.  .1's encouragement has made me
feel better already.  Hopefully the tree will feel better soon.
What would be the normal length of time for this restoration
of the roots?  When should I expect to see a healthy looking 
tree?
	I'll look into the fertilizer advice.  Unfortunately
the drip line is mostly either under the driveway, or in the
neighbor's yard.  I don't know the neighbors yet, but
hopefully they are interested in saving trees.

--mgb

    
    Mary don't worry too much about the absolute location of te drip
    line.  The reason to use the drip line as a guide is to encourage
    root growth away from the tree, thus establishing a denser, hardier
    and stronger root system, (2) to get the the fertilizer in contact
    with moisture to encourage it to become active,and (3) to keep
    fertilizer away from the trunk of the tree.  You can fertilize inside
    of the drip line too -- just stay away from the trunk itself.  You
    can also help mother nature activate the fertilizer by giving the
    tree around the areas you'd fertilize a drink of water.  These areas
    don't get much when the tree is leaving, hence th watering.  Also
    if you recall whenever you plant a tree or bush, you always should
    water frequently for the first year or two, or at least until the
    plant establishes a root system.
    
    The amount of time does vary, but if you keep the tree watered,
    and fertilize, I think you'll start to see visible results next
    spring.  Watering is really important, especially as we go into
    autumn, because trees do lots of root growing in the winter, and
    you want to make sure the ground is supportive,  Also, assuming
    no major other problems, maples are a hardy tree and do well in
    New England.
    
    /Dave

    My brother cut down a big old tree and sent it off to the local
    sawmill. They were not pleased about the old barbed wire it was
    hiding. OOPS!

>                               -< Must have made horrible noise >-

      The  "noise"  is the good news.  Saw mills use LARGE saws -- 4, 5,
      mabe six feet in diameter or more.  Hitting a nail or a  piece  of
      chain  or  whatever  can  cause  the blade to explode, with pieces
      flying around in a very dangerous fashion.  Very serious  injuries
      are liekly to result.
      
      There  are  some  militant conservationalist who will "spike" live
      trees by driving nails into them.  Driven in and countersunk  they
      are  almost  impossible  to find.  Then they let potential loggers
      know that such and such an area has been "spiked".  This makes  it
      almost impossible to sell the logs.  

re .4:

My father had a huge pine tree (3'+ diameter, prob. 100' tall) come down in a
storm.  He called a nearby saw mill, offering to give them the tree.  They
refused to take it, because it was an unknown, and to them the risk from a
nail or barbed wire being in the tree wasn't worth the value of the lumber,
even with all the nice wide boards they could have gotten from it.

-Mike

       couldn't they run a metal detector over it?
                                     Denny

    Actually, its general practice for sawmills to catagorically reject any
    logs that are known to have been "grown" in the vicinity of a house,
    barn, etc, because of the danger of nails, staples, wire ...
    
    Another worry that they have are "shocked" logs - logs from trees
    felled by storms, weekend warriors, etc that have fallen poorly and
    developed hidden splits, cracks, or stress.  These flaws can break
    the blade (band saw), knock out replaceable teeth (circular saw), hurl
    the log back at the sawyer, etc.
    
    (Actually, I think they did harvest some of the Mt St Helens blow-down,
     so perhaps some mills are less choosey ...)

    re. Why not use a metal detector

    	Unless the tree is some EXOTIC HARDWOOD species or something of
    exceptional marketing value (George Washington's Cherry Tree), the COST
    of running a metal detector over EVERY tree would exceed the profit
    margin for the tree-to-lumber process.  So, rather than fuss with
    things that can be sold as firewood without killing someone or damaging
    your equipment beyond economical repair, they just reject these type
    trees.
    	The second thing is that lightning strike trees sometimes have soft
    spots and what we used to call char areas.  These are areas that will
    make the tree almost EXPLODE into toothpicks if hit with the saw blade
    or large areas in the center of the tree that are burned to a crisp
    (charcoal).  That makes most of the tree useless as well as endangering
    the saw operator.  (AND BELIEVE ME, when you're the saw operator, YOU
    WORRY ABOUT THAT!!!)
    	With blow-downs, you typically find either heart rot or spiral
    splits which cause too high a percentage of waste from the tree to make
    it economical to use it for lumber.  Heart rot can also cause the
    toothpick explosion when the saw blade hits it.  So, these types of
    trees were rejected categorically from the mill I worked at growing up.

I agree.  My father mentioned the actual value of the tree he wanted to give
to the lumber yard was very little, or at least that's what they told him.
It was just white pine, which is hardly valuable.  The only way this tree could
be considered of any value was the diameter.

Too bad I didn't think of it at the time, I should have gotten a nice
lengthwise slice and finished it as a Yuppie Coffee Table...

BTW, the root ball of this giant tree was amazingly small.

-Mike

    For lack of a better note, (and PICA::GARDEN didn't have much...)
    
    I had some landscaping done recently and the loader knocked down a
    lilac bush.  It's no big deal to me, however, my wife's a little 
    upset as she _loves_ lilacs, and this one was the only deep purple
    one we've got.  Anyway, I told her I could try to graft it.  Does
    anyone know the process?  It's bent over and almost broken near the
    ground, if that matters.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Gene
    

>... loader knocked down a lilac bush.  ...  I could try to graft it.  Does
>anyone know the process?  It's bent over and almost broken near the ground,
>if that matters.
    
     If the trunk(s) aren't actually cracked, then just upright it, being 
careful not to crack the trunks.

     If its an established plant and the trunk(s) are cracked, cut them 
off below the cracks and the plant will recover.  You're 'supposed' to cut
back 1/3 to 1/4 of the trunks to the ground each year anyway.

     If its a new plant and the trunk(s) are cracked, it'll probably 
recover just the same as if it were well established.

re: .4
You may want to cross post this in PICA::GARDEN
-Amy

    I have some trees in an area of my property which is quite a bit
    lower (a foot or so) than the surrounding area.  I've thought of
    simply filling in the low area (bringing dirt up a foot or so onto
    the tree trunk).  Will mounding dirt around the tree like this
    cause any damage to the tree?  I've heard some yeas and some nays
    but no one is really sure.
    
    Any tree experts out there?

    Yes,  it  definately  will.    Check  PICA::GARDEN for the  details,
    keyword=*tree* for starters.
    
    It has something to do with  the  water table, and I have observed a
    lot  of  Landscapers,  professional  an  amateurts  alike,  building
    "wells"  around  the  valuable  tree  trunks to prevent"piling  dirt
    around the trees trunks.
    
    If all else  fails,  try  calling  one  of  the  "<state>  Extension
    Institutes"  or  the "Arnold  Arborateum"  in  Boston  (Mattapan  or
    Dedham?), Mass for a more definitive answer.
    
    -BobE
    
re:                         -< Filling low spot w/trees >-

>the tree trunk).  Will mounding dirt around the tree like this
>cause any damage to the tree?  I've heard some yeas and some nays
>but no one is really sure.

        
    

    .0, .1:
    
    It's not the water table that is the problem;  the problem is that most
    trees expect to have a trunk above the ground, and roots below. 
    Burying the trunk interferes with some of the processes going on in the
    bark, and "smothers" the tree.  (Unless you're quite careful, you'll
    probably bang up the bark of the tree with rocks and such, but it's the
    lack of air that is the killer, I'm told.)
    
    Dick

    
    
       Don't change the grade, it really stresses the tree(s), due
    to a number of factors.  Here are some extracts from P.P. Pirone's
    "Tree Maintenance" 5th ed. Oxford University Press: 1978 pp.199-201.
    
        "The addition or removal of soil may seriously disturb the
    delicate relationship between roots and soil and thus result in
    considerable damage or death of the tree."
    
         "Where no fill has been applied, the trunk is wider at the soil
    line than it is a foot or so above. If the trunk has no flare at its
    base and it enters the ground in a straight line, then a fill has
    probably been applied."
    
         WHY it occurs:
    
         "The tree roots have become established within a certain area
    in the soil where the essential materials (air, water, nutrients)
    are present. The moment a blanket of soil is placed over existing
    soil level, a marked disturbance occurs in the balance between
    the roots and these essential materials."
    
         What to do if you still want to raise the grade, and have
    the tree (hopefully) survive?
    
         Add plenty of tree fertilizer, build a well around the trunk
    extending at least 2 feet out from the base of the trunk with 
    stone or other porous material up to the level of the new grade.
    
        The well area should be filled with a 50/50 mixture of 
    crushed charcoal and sand to allow unblocked air and water
    exchange, this will also help reduce rodent infestation, 
    mosquito breeding and prevent falls into the well.
    
        Basically, if you really don't need to do it, don't.
    
        Hope this long explanation helps.
    
                        Mark

    One other thing that I would suspect is that the bark on the part of
    the tree that was buried, would rot and fall off.  If this happens all
    the way around the tree (Known as Girdling), the tree can no longer
    pass water up the tree (it passes the water between the bark and the
    trunk), thus 'dehydrates' and dies.  And that's the easiest way to kill
    a tree (girdle it - To remove the bark all the way around the trunk).
    
    Good Luck!!
    Patty

    I have a number of trees in my yard that show the effects of fill
    placed around the trunk.  What happens is, first you notice the top of
    the tree stops producing leaves.  Over time the leaves stop being
    produced lower to the ground.  If the tree doesn't produce enough
    roots, by the third spring it will be dead.
    
    Trees require their roots to be close to the surface, except the "tap
    root", so that the minerals that are needed for nurishment are
    dissolved in the water that is absorbed.  What I used on my trees to
    bring them back was a high phosphorus fertilizer.  Phosphorus
    stimulates root growth.  I also had to top the trees just above the
    highest leaves, because the trees had stopped producing sap for these
    branches and the insects were taking over.
    
    In all, I had to drop two of the six trees that had back fill above the
    original ground level.  The worst one had about 2 feet of loam over its
    surface roots.
    
    Charlie
    

I have seen ways that fill can be added around the case of the tree it involves
air pipes and gravel to allow the roots to continue to live. I have an
illustration that shows better than i could ever put into words send me mail
and I'll mail you a photocopy of how it is done.

-j csc32::Gortmaker

    Is it possible to gradually fill in around a mature tree?  Sometimes it
    really is not practical to have the tree in a "well".  Can you add an
    inch or so of soil, wait a year, add some more, etc., until the area is
    the way you want it, allowing the tree time to grow new surface roots?
    
    /Charlotte

    Re .7:
    	An inch or so a year?  How much do you need to add?  It would take
    years and years to get anything really noticable.  I am thinking
    about adding about 2 feet to the grade on my lot, wells would be the
    only possible answer.
    
    bjm

    
       I added an inch in April, and the tree is already dropping
    leaves due to the effect.  I'm going to add some fertilizer with
    high phophorous to stimulate roots to grow into the new zone.
      The tree next to it which wasn't filled is nice and green.
    
      This is a case of where I didn't follow my own advice, to
    begin with.
    
                Mark
    
    
                

    I've also read of what .6 talks about to raise the ground level
    around a tree. It's been years so I don't have the references
    but .6 does . Why not check it out.  -Pat
    

    
    
    I've been reading these past replies and found the info to be very
    interesting, but I would like to reverse the situation for a moment.
    
    My mother-in-law wants to remove the grass from around a tree in the
    front yard and form a circle (like you see the pro landscapers doing
    lately) around the base. Then she wants to add some mulch to fill
    in and build up where the grass once was. 
    
    My question is - Will I encounter the same problems dicussed
    previously? Is there anything special I must do first or after? etc.
    
    Thanks in advance for any help.
    
    al
     

    
    Al,
    
      That shouldn't be a problem, I do it all the time.  Just make
    sure you only remove the grass (shake out the soil), then add
    mulch to the original grade.
    
         Actually, I use a turf edger, cut my circle, (by hand) I
    pull out grass and shake soil out so there is no real grade
    change, and then mulch over it (as mulch allows for air exchange,
    this does not pose a real problem).
    
        2 hints:  Don't damage the trunk in any way (cut it with tools, 
                  or otherwise injure.
    
                  Don't go out too far from the trunk, the larger
                  roots near the trunk usually won't get damaged,
                  but smaller feeder roots under drip-line area
                  (edge of crown) should not be disturbed.
    
         It is actually better to do these type of mulched areas, even
         if they're small as they help prevent mechanical damage usually
         caused by lawn mowers.
    
                                    Mark
    

    On a related note, I've got several trees in my yard that have had
    the soil eroded away from them so that the roots near the trunk are 
    exposed on the low side of the tree.  I was planning on filling 
    in these areas with topsoil and then planting grass to hold the soil.  
    I had assumed that this would be beneficial to the tree, but after 
    reading all this stuff about changing the grade harming trees, 
    I'm not sure--opinions?
    
    -Randy

    
    Thanks for the advice Mark. 
    
    The plans aren't to come up above grade too far, maybe just enough
    to put down a couple inches of mulch. The diameter shouldn't be
    more than a foot or two (Knowing mother-in-laws everything could
    change tomorrow! )- ).
    
    Again thanks,
    al
    

    
    
    Let me correct myself. I meant radius not diameter.
    al

I've been told many times that it is a bad idea to add any fill at all
around the base of the tree.  The problem is that the bark can decay
if you put dirt up against it.  The proper earth level around a tree
is high enough to cover the roots that spread out, but low enough so
that you can still see that the tree flares a bit where it enters the
ground.  The same applies to mulch -- make it thin at the base of the
tree so that it doesn't hold moisture against the bark.  Farther out,
the mulch can be thicker.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- I heard of a case where a builder piled earth around some trees,
which died, and the owner managed to sue for $10K to $20K (I forget
which amount) -- the judge bought his contention that mature shade trees
added that much to the value of the house.

re-.1
In the plans I have distributed there is no soil contact with the bark an 
open well is provided to allow the trunk to continue to grow and avoid rot.
Either way it is risky but done properly the tree has a chance sometimes
fill has to be added. If the goal is to have a flat spot to put a lawn chair
safer methods like a ground level deck are best but if you want to try to save 
that lovely old treee but have to add fill to build the house or not build 
at all you cross yor fingers and give the tree the best chance you can.
I know of one tree not far from the burlington mall that had been filled over
with a tree well and seemed to be doing fine last I saw it a few years ago.


A few years and several books ago I'd have agreed but I have since been 
shown otherwise much to my own disbelief.

-j

re .-1:  I didn't realize your plans had a well around the trunk --
I've also seen trees thriving in wells.  I just wanted to make sure people
didn't get the idea that it was ok to build up soil right against the
trunk of the tree -- so far as I know, that is always a bad idea.

On the subject of tree roots growing up toward the surface... I once
left a pile of earth in my back yard for several months.  When I finally
leveled it out, I found tree roots growing up into the bottom of it.
It was under the crown of the tree, although 6' or so from the trunk.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Wow!  It's been almost 4 years since I started this note!  Here's an
    update on the 2 trees I was having problems with back then...  The Red
    Maple did indeed croak.  I went back to the nursery and explained to
    the owner how I felt it wasn't going to survive and he said to wait
    until the following Spring- if it doesn't bloom, he'd give me another. 
    Well, the following Spring, I got another, and it too did not survive. 
    I concluded that the trees didn't make it because of poor drainage. 
    The ground is all clay so that it retains moisture for too long.  The
    other tree, the crabapple, survived and is doing fine.  It's also in
    clay, but more on a hill than the maples were.  The funny thing about
    the crabapple, however, is it hasn't grown at all in the 4 years, or if
    it did, it's only very little.  Right now it has pretty little crimson
    flowers all over it, so I'm not complaining.  Oh, and I gave up on
    planting maples...  :-)
    
    Now, for the real reason I'm in this note.  Yesterday, I received my 10
    seedlings from the National Arbor Day Foundation.  They're assorted
    trees, and I'm not sure what I'd want to do with them, this year
    especially, since my yard is not quite the way I like it yet, and I'm
    sure they'll be some more changes.  In the meantime, I'm thinking of
    planting these seedlings in small pots.  But, looking ahead, what do I
    do with them if I don't plant them inground, like I know I won't with
    most of them?  Would they be ok outside in pots in the freezing cold
    winter?  Would they be better off inside?
    
    I'm only asking now in case I have no better choices than being forced
    into planting them inground so that I can start planning on it or at
    least give the ones away to people who'd plant them inground now...
    
    Thanks,
    John

I've been a member of NAD at times, and what I've usually done is just clear a
little space a couple feet square and stick them in.  They're so small it 
usually takes them a couple years to get to any reasonable size, so I have a 
couple of years to figure out what to do.

The biggest problem with pots is that they dry out very easily, so you have to
be careful to remember to water them.

Paul

    Not a bad idea, Paul, however, space is very limited in my smallish
    backyard along with the work I need to do that I don't have an
    available 2 or so square feet to stick the seedlings in without having
    to move them again to another spot in a couple of months.  That's why
    I'm really leaning to potting them, especially for just this year.
    
    So, can they remain outside next winter in pots?  Would they be better
    off inside?  How about in cool garage with hardly any daylight?
    
    Thanks,
    John 

    Sorry, I forgot to ask in the last reply....
    
    Again on potting the (10"-12") seedlings, should I go this route, what
    size (min-max) pots should I use?  Could I pot several in one, or I
    should I stick to I (smaller?) pot per seedling?
    
    Thanks again,
    John

Why don't you put them in Paul's yard?

Try PICA::GARDEN.  There are some very knowledgeable people there.

    Paul?  :-)
    
    Thanks, I thought of trying PICA::GARDEN, but I didn't want yet another
    notes conference, if you know what I mean.  I suppose I'll try it
    anyway, thanks...
    
    John

Why not try a combination of the two ideas.  Pot them in a pot where they will 
have enough room to grow for a while.  Put the pots in the ground.  Now you
don't have to remember to water them and when you want to move them you just
pull up the pot and place it elsewhere.  This would prevent the root damage 
from continuous replanting.

Stan

I can't promise to water them, but I have plenty of space.......

:-)

Paul

    You could pot them up in gallon size or larger pots then set the pots
    into the ground to conserve moisture better still would be to cover all
    the pots with bark mulch until you're ready to use them. If the delay
    is only going to be a few weeks you could simply heel them in in an
    unused shady part of the garden until you're ready to plant. Either way
    it is important to do something if the roots dry out too much they may
    not survive.
    
    -j

    We joined a couple of years ago also and I planted mine in a corner of
    our garden. Worked out fine until my son mowed half of them down
    clearing out the garden at the end of the season. Keep in mind that a
    tree's root system typically reflects the size of the tree. Generally
    you can picture an equal size above and below ground. Nurseries prune
    the roots to keep them localized enough for root balls when they expect
    to move them. The pots might eventually be a limiting factor to growth.

    Thanks for the many more replies in here than in the gardening
    notesfile (really!).  My wife tried potting the seedlings in one of
    those long trays, only to find out that the roots on some of them are
    too long for this type of container.  Today, I expect to find them in
    something else, hopefully much deeper!  And since I do not foresee
    planting them in permanent locations for about a year, I think that
    planting them pots and all next Fall would be the best alternative...
    
    Thanks for all inputs!
    
    John

    John,
    
    Don't plant more than one in the same pot though, the roots will get
    tangled and subsequently damaged when seperating them for replanting to 
    the permanent location.
    
    Fra
    

What's the best way to connect cable to a tree, without killing it?

I'd like to shoot one line out from our deck for a bird feeder, and another
from the mudroom for drying laundry.  Both will involve pulleys.

Should I screw an eyebolt in to the trees?  Or wrap the cable around the
tree, with the understanding that I need to include padding of some sort, and
redo it every few years to prevent choking the tree as it grows.

Are there minimum or maximum diameters for the tree?

The trees in question are mostly pine.

  Gary

    The wrap the cable around the tree is definitely NOT the way to go.
    You will strangle the tree.  Even if you were to add some padding
    like some old garden hose, it will tend to abrade the bark in the
    spots that it touches.  Probably best to just go with the eye hook
    in the side.
    
    -al

We have had screw hooks in our fir trees for about 10 years.  In the first 
year, they leak a little sap that shows as a whitish dribble.  Then the hole
seals.  I guess as long as you don't remove the hook, there won't be any 
problem (as long as you don't want to turn the tree into lumber).

    Being a Ham, I've put up a lot of wire antenna;s using tree's.
    I've used eyebolts always, and they have never hurt the tree's.
    
    You may need to back out the screw eye over time though, as the tree
    grows.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Ok, maybe my question can be answered here.  How exactly are you going
    to attach the wire to the eye screw?  You can't tie knots in steel
    cable like you can with rope or string; what kind of connecting
    hardware and/or tools do you need?  I assume that you loop the end of
    the cable, either going through the eye or after slipping the short end
    through a clip of some sort (that you can clip onto the eye).  Then, you 
    must somehow crimp the short end to the main bit of cable.  But, what
    do you use to do this?
    
    Cq 

    I wrapped a chain around a tree for my hammock and nailed a piece of
    wood at the back (under the chain) where the strain would occur.  It 
    works fine.
    
    Pam

    
.4>  How exactly are you going to attach the wire to the eye screw?
    
    U-clamps, or cable clamps. Available in various sizes to match cable,
    in better hardware stores.
    
    Refer to steel cable dog runs, usually available in same store, for
    application example.
    

>    Ok, maybe my question can be answered here.  How exactly are you going
>    to attach the wire to the eye screw? 

      Go to your friendly neighborhood hardware store and tell the sales
      person what you need to do.  You will be sold two things:   (1)  a
      curved  piece  of  concave  metal  channel.   You  put the channel
      throught the eye; the wire rides in the  channel,  which  prevents
      the  wire  from  bending  too  sharply.  (2) The second thing is a
      clamp.
      
      You  feed  the  wire through the eye, double it back on itself and
      clamp it.  
      
      Unfortunately, there is no way I can draw this on a keyboard?
      
      I  suggest  you  take a sample of the wire and the eye so that you
      get the right size.

    Wire rope clips, cable clamps, whatever you want to call 'em.  Any
    hardware store ought to have them, in the correct size for your
    particular cable.  Use two, and put the "U" part on the short (the
    doubled-back) end of the cable.
    
    Another way to do it, without any cable clamps, is to unwind the
    end of the cable into two parts (roughly 50%-50%) for a few inches.
    Bend the two halves into a loop, with long ends, and you will find
    that you can rewind the cable together into an eye by pulling the
    ends through the loop and following the original twists.  This isn't
    as strong, probably, but it works quite well.

    
    Ok, I'll try at the hardware store.  I like knowing I can look at 
    the dog run thing for an example.  I asked this question in the 
    wild birds conference a long time ago and didn't get a very good
    answer.  (I've wanted to string a cable to hang a bird feeder.)
     
    Thanks...
    
    Cq

We got what we needed at Moore's, including vinyl covered cables.  The
feeders went up this morning.  News spread rapidly; just like any other new
restaurant, these quickly became busy, including a full-dress
goldfinch, making it all worthwhile.

I did find that to get the cable as taut as we wanted, it was easier to
drop the cable to the ground, clamp at the right length, and then lift it
back up to the deck.  This was mostly because it was too difficult to work
over the edge of the deck railing, especially with the squirrel baffles in the
way.  I used a turnbuckle for the final tightening; I expect to do this a few
more times as the cable stretches.

I used silicone lubricant on the pulleys.  My only concern now is whether the
closed cylinder turnbuckles we got are likely to rust in place, and whether
that matters.

We thank you, and the birds thank you.

   Gary

    re: clamp cable to get it as taut...
    
    I would recommend getting one of those spring things that you see on
    storm doors that doesn't let the door break off if the wind catchs it.
    (you know what I mean).  Our 75' dog run has this thing on it.  It
    takes up the slack and allows expantion/contraction. You put the cable on 
    one end and hook it to your deck/whatever on the other end.
    
    -----------{======}o-||
     cable      spring    deck
    
    I don't think it's supposed to be a good idea to have the cable that
    tight as you say your's is.
    
    Steve
                

	    I agree with .11.  It takes very little force toward the middle
	of the cable to drastically increase the trension at each end.  A
	good strong wind might rip a screw eye out of your wall... or worse.
	The longer your cable run, the greater the pull will be at each end.
	    Don't get a regular spring.  I tried this on the dog run with a
	very heavy guage spring.  It got streched out the first time the dog
	pulled against his runner.  The right kind compresses the spring.
	If you look at any dog run kit, you'll see what I mean.

					Tim

I couldn't find a sprint that would compress, so I put in a short spring
marked for trampolines.  I don't know whether it really helps; the cable has
a fair bit of stretch of its own.  Besides, there's quite a bit of difference
between an eager dog and a bunch of featherweight birds.

I'm used to storm doors having regular in-line springs along with piston
devices intended to close them slowly.  That doesn't sound right for this
application, as they don't apply very much tension.

   Gary

The spring for the storm door is the one used on a chain to restrict how far
the door can open (especially good if you want it to open less then the closer
will allow).  By the way, the spring in the cable will be helpful when the wind
starts blowing the trees around.  We have a cable for our dog, and on windy 
days, the slack will disappear when the trees move around just right (and they
do that more often than you'd imagine).

    I have fruit trees in my yard.  I'd like to spray this year.  Any
    suggestions/recommendations on environmentaly safe products, pehaps 
    home made remedies?
    
    Thanks,
    Pam

    
    
    Stop at your local Agway deal.  He will be able to tell
    you all you need to know and use.
    
    JD

    
    See also the gardening conference (PICA::GARDEN).
    
    At this time of year you usually spray with "dormant oil" which is
    pretty much environmentally benign. It just suffocates the little
    jaspers as they wait for buds to open up, rather than poisoning them.
    
    JP

    JP,
    
    "Dormant oil", you said this time of year.  You mean I couldn't use
    this once the buds open?
    
    I'll also check in the garden conference.
    
    Pam

    
    Once you get enough advice to figure out what you want to use (whether
    dormant oil or something else), the best plan is to read the directions
    on the container.
    
    I don't think it would be a good idea to spray fully-open buds/flowers
    with dormant oil but I'm not an expert by any means. Anyway, in New
    England, the time between the appearance of a bud and the time it is
    fully open is measured in weeks (and it seems like years!).
    
    Sorry I can't be of more help...
    
    JP

    Can I spray this on crabapple and dogwood trees?
    
    Pam
    

    
    Well, this stuff normally controls bugs that get their start in flowers
    and end up as worms in the fruit. I've sprayed our crabapple with it,
    even though the fruit is for the birds (who don't seem to mind
    blemished fruit).  Don't know about dogwoods -- I don't see too many of
    them in my neck of the woods. 
    
    It did wonders for our apples last year, though.
    
    JP
    

    I got the dornment oil and sprayed my trees... hope it works!  Also,
    just so you know, if you live near Spags, the price was fantastic.  I
    went to Agway (for something else) and it was triple in cost!!
    
    Thanks John for the info!
    
    Pam

    re.0
    Donot spray dromant oil on opened buds. Seven applied to crabapple
    trees just after the blossoms have fallen will reduce the number of
    "apples" by two thirds this is a plus if the tree is near walks or
    driveways where the falling "apples" are a royal pain.
    It is a good idea not to use any insecticide on open blossoms it
    dosen't serve any useful purpose and it kills the bees that pollinate.
    
    -j

    I used Malathion according to the directions on the label for my plum
    tree.  I never noticed any adverse effects.

    Summer's here, and friend wife wants a hammock installed.  She's
    already located two suitable trees of about 15 inch diameter and
    a reasonable spacing.  I'm somewhat stumped (pardon the pun) on
    the best way to secure the hammock to the trees.  Would the use
    of large diameter (400 lb load rating) screw hooks in the trunks
    of the trees cause serious damage to the trees?  Would running a
    steel cable around the trunk be better or cause more damage?
    
    Use of a "frame" for the hammock is out; the boss decided that a
    hammock just looks better when it's attached to trees.  (Guess
    an umbrella is in order due to the "gypsy moth rain".)

    I hang my hammock between 2 good size pines.  I tried using screw
    hooks but they would work their way loose.  Maybe because of the soft
    wood.  Also the sap made a mess.  Now I just tie some hemp rope around the
    trunks and loop a chain through the rope to attach the S hook for the
    hammock.  I use another S hook to hold the ends of the chain.  Has
    worked great for a couple of years - and this hammock supports a lot of
    weight.
    
    Like this:
    
    		|	| <- trunk
    		|      8|
        rope -->|======8=8 <- chain loop
    		|      8| S
    		|	|8 8
    		|	| 8 8
                           S
    			    \
                             \================   <-hammock 	
      

    I have used large screw eyes for years to attach to trees. I have a 
    hammock that is held into some spruce trees with them.
    Just remember to back them out some each year. The tree continues to
    grow around them.
    
    Marc H.

Presumably you could screw a piece of wood to the opposite side of the
trunk and attach the hammock to that.  That way, the weight on the
hammock is pushing the board against the tree, not pulling a screw out.
Also, there's no danger of damaging the tree by rubbing off bark with the
rope/chain -- or of having the tree grow around the rope/chain, which
strangles the tree.  I've got a tree with an old chain emerging from 
the bark about 5 feet up... that tree is definately in poor shape.

	Enjoy,
	Larry


	 
	 rope ,-----| <---- board
	    ,'	,--.|
Hammock ---<	|  ||=  <-- screw
	    `.	`--'|
	      `-----|

    I remove everything every Fall so the tree wouldn't grow around it.
    Also there's been no bark damage because the rope doesn't rub.  The
    thing I've found with these trees (not sure what kinds of pines the are)
    is that sap or pitch bleeds a lot from holes.  Smells nice but it's
    hell to get off of anything.  For me the rope chain works well.
    
    George

    I've got a landscaping plan put together that calls for grading and
    terracing my yard.  I've also got a large number of 70-80 ft. oaks.
    I've heard a number of horror stories about the sensitivity of these
    trees and their root systems.  I'm concerned not only about moving
    soil on/off of the root systems, but the terrace retaining walls
    call for 2-3 feet of vertical telephone poles to be sunk down,
    in some case 2-3 ft(2-3 ft, exposed) , from the base of the trees.
    Are there any rules of thumb that I should be working with here?
    There is only one tree that I will have to build a well for.  Most
    of the fill will be out, some ways from the base of the oaks.
    
    also posted to GARDEN

check out note 3909.3

    re -1:  I had already seen that note.  It seems to be more of an issue
    with changing the grade around the base of the tree, rather than out
    toward the drip line.

    
    
    ...try putting the chain inside a rubber hose.  Then wrap
    it  around the tree.  It wont damage the tree at all..
    
    JD 

Here's some observations about oak trees in the development I live in,
Sacramento Ca.  Oak trees appear to be VERY sensitive to ANY changes
which affect their root systems.  Many oak trees have been killed by a
few common problems.  Most of which have been the results of indifferent
(greedy?) developers.

1. Changing the watering/areation under the drip line by;

	a. Raising the soil level (filling)
	b. Lowering the soil level (grading)
	c. Planting sod (lawn) under the entire dripline
	d. Covering the area under the dripline with concrete (driveways)

2. Impacting the area outside the dripline;

	a. Digging/burrying drainage/utility lines to close to the dripline
	b. Excavating to close to the drip line

The general guideline for developers in our area is to not perform any soil
disruption (excavation) within the dripline.  It has been found recently
though, as more trees are dying, that the guideline should be changed to
be the dripline PLUS 20% of the radius (trunk to edge of dripline).  Even
this may not be sufficient.  Consider an oak which is VERY old and has lost
many of its low/longer limbs.  The tree becomes more vertical and less
'ball-like'.  Hence the dripline is not a true indication of the area
in which excavation could be harmful.

Regards,
John D. Hurst

(Who lives across the street from a wetlands with surrounding oaks)

    General rules of thumb:
    
    	Never put fill around a tree trunk - it will rot the bark and kill
    the tree. (My tree surgeon says that you can get away with it if the
    fill is less than a foot or so...)
    
    	Never let heavy construction equipment go beneath the drip line.
    
    	Never let construction equipment "bump" the trunk. Both of these
    can kill a tree. One by compacting the roots, the other by
    bruising/destroying the cambium of the tree.
    
    	Never pave over or cover the roots of a tree as it will "suffocate"
    them and kill the tree.
    
    
    
    	Remember that even though a tree may look large, the only living
    part other than the leaves and roots is the thin layer just beneath the
    bark called the cambium. A common way to eliminate trees in the "old
    days" was to simply remove a thin ring of bark all the way around the tree.
    This was a guaranteed way to kill the tree.

Am I right in assuming that it is *abrupt* changes that are so damaging?
E.g., if I wanted to raise the soil level under the drip line (though
not around the trunk), is it likely to work if I do it by a couple of
inches a year?  In my case it's a maple, not an oak, but I guess if it'll
work for an oak, it's even more likely to work for a maple.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    I do not think that this will work. Once you start putting soil up
    against the trunk the bark will have the chance to rot. When the bark
    rots the cambium will be exposed and the tree will die.
    
    (Now maybe if you get out your tree jack... ;*}  (sorry been working
    too hard lately))

I meant increased soil depth under the drip line, but NOT against the trunk.
E.g., build a stone wall around the trunk a few feet out, and increase the
soil depth on the outside of the wall by a couple of inches a year without
*ever* increasing the soil depth next to the trunk.

Sorry, I don't have a tree jack, and my rental place has discontinued them.

	Thanks :-)
	Larry

    Re .7
    >>>Sorry, I don't have a tree jack, and my rental place has discontinued
    >>>them.
    
    No problem.  Just mount your air shredder on the top of the tree, after
    you make the rotor free from the motor.  The updraft through the leaves
    will cause the air shredder to generate lift, thereby providing a
    steady upwards movement, allowing you to add more soil around the tree as
    the tree is lifted. (Note that you have to be careful so that you don't
    get the shredder upside down, in which case you'd have to remove soil
    from around the tree...)

    re: .7
    
    	If I understand you correctly that is the correct way to do it.
    Putting up a wall around the tree about 6 feet out and filling the area
    outside will create a tree well. I have seen this done by professional
    landscapers. It is the usual way to save trees when the landscaping
    demands raising the terrain.
    
    

    
    re: .7  That's what was done around a few trees here at MRO1.  They've
    been here a long time and look healthy.  Oaks, I think.  (I walk by
    them at least twice a day but I can't remember!)
    
    Cq

    wondering about an update on Tall Hedge info.  Is it only sold via
    catalog ?  Wondering if anyone has found it in one of the nurseries in
    southern NH.
    
    Carol
    

    I need some help in saving a tree.
    
    I have recently changed to grade of my back yard, which contains a
    large oak, roughly 24" in diameter.  I would like to save this tree.
    
    I also do not want an open well around the tree.  I would like to well
    the tree, and fill it with some material to allow it to breathe.  A
    landscaper told me I could fill it with crushed stone and pipes for
    air, and the tree should be fine.
    
    Can anyone point me to a reference describing how to do this?
    Has anyone done anything similar?  I need to know how much
    piping I'll need, where to put it, what size well to make, etc.
    
    thanks
    
    Scott Apgar
    

        I looked through most DIR/TIT= TREE, and really couldn't find a topic
    that met what I was looking for, so here it goes.

    I have a large Oak, (Huge!) that resides on the property line between
    my house and the neighbors.  (Since my neighbor is a lawyer, I want
    to be extra careful!)  The tree has a few very high limbs that are
    dead and hanging over both our houses.

    Whose responsibility is the tree?  Is it shared?  If it is 70% on my 
    property and 30% on his, do I "own" 70% of the responsibility?

    How does it work if the tree needs to be removed?

    Similarly, he has several tress in his backyard that hang over my 
    parking area.  Several of the trees have dead or dying limbs that
    keep beating the heck out of my two cars.  Whose job is it to "fix"
    this?

    One other property issue is a huge concrete retaining wall in the back
    yard.  How does one find out who has the responsibility of maintenance
    for this puppy?  The house behind me that is situated on higher ground
    or us?  (We currently have rain water issues as a result of the wall)

    Thanks for any help!

    Chip in Cincinnati

    Re: .0
    
    Live next door to a lawyer eh?  My condolance.
    
    Have you had the property line recently checked, or is the tree status
    what someone told you?
    
    Marc H.

    Actually I used the chain link fence in my assumption.  The tree stands
    two thirds inside the fence...  I guess I should have the line checked
    out by the city.

    Chip

	    Got a problem with talking to your neighbor?  You might be able
	to work out a deal where you two share the expense of getting the
	tree trimmed.

					Tim

In some places the part of a tree that overhangs your property is yours
to cut or not cut as you see fit.  This has produced a couple lopsided trees
along property lines with feuding neighbors.

Check with an (impartial) attorney to be sure this holds for you.

-Mike

    
    
    I've heard this dealt with on radio talk shows before (Bruce Williams)
    
    He said that if your neighbor has a tree or bush that has branches in
    your yard, you could trim whatever pieces were in your yard. However,
    if your pruning results in the death of the tree/bush, then you could
    be held financially liable.
    
    Bob

    please, please, please do NOT 'consult an attorney' first.
    
    Go have a talk with your neighbor, talk about the problem. Assume he is
    as reasonable a person as you are.
    
    Too many lawyers.

Check with your local building inspector as to who had the retaining wall
erected-- he who put it up is responsible for its maintainence.  Now, if the
wall was put up without a permit, and doesn't meet code, it may have to come
down...  figure out if you have a bigger problem with or without the retaining
wall before creating a rukus over it.

Ron

    My neighbor seems to be a decent enough fellow.  Unfortunately, I have
    noticed that, when we talk about the tree, he is very quick to assign
    the ownership to me.  (i.e., "You have got a monster tree there...  I
    wonder what it would cost you should that thing die...  ect., etc.)
    
    I, orf course, shoot back, (in fun) "I'm not too sure that I own that
    tree...".
    
    Good advice on the retaining wall.  It's in good shape, I'll keep my
    trap shut.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Chip

    RE:.0

    	It sounds like your not even sure who's property the tree sits on. 
    The first thing you have to do is get the property lines surveyed so
    there's no doubt as to who's land the tree is rooted in.  If the tree
    turns up being on your property (even if it hangs over his property) I
    think it's your responsibility to get it taken care of.  If the tree
    truly straddles both property's then it should be a shared expense. 
    Needless to say I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV so the
    above is just my opinion.

    Joe 

Having already gone through this with a former neighbor who wanted to cut 
down a tree that straddled the property line, there are two scenarios you 
can go by.

1, identify who planted the tree or on whose property the tree started 
growing.  This allows you (or your neighbor) to accuse the other property 
owner of allowing the tree to encroach on the other's property and you (or 
your neighbor) can force the original owner to bear the cost of removal 
and bear the cost of any damage that may occur due to nature should the 
tree not be removed.

2. if the ownership of the sapling cannot be established, the 
responsibility is determined by the percentage of the trunk sitting on 
either side of the property line.  i.e 30% on your side, he pays 70% of the 
costs and holds 70% of the liability.  You will have to get the property 
surveyed if there aren't any accurate property line markers.  If you have 
large granite blocks but they don't have dimples marking the actual 
property boundary, you'll have to pay a surveyor to accurately establish 
the property line as a granite block isn't accurate enough unless you and 
your neighbor can agree to use the center of said block as a measurement 
point.

Needles to say, the tree is still standing as neither of us was around when 
the tree was a sapling and 45% of the trunk is on my property and he can't 
destroy the tree.  Any damage due to nature would be done to my home or one 
of his illegally parked construction vehicles.  (He was a contractor 
operating out of a residential neighborhood)

His brother now owns the place and he wants the tree left there as much as 
we do.

	.0 A timely note -- I have the same problem, with a different twist.

	Anybody have any helpful hints?????


	--------------------------------------------


	My neighbor has an 80' ash almost on my property line.

	It has a hollow spot at its base, may have the ash virus
	that is going around, and has a lean that if it fell could
	take out part of my neighbor's house. So it is already weakened.

	I am putting in a new septic system, and the city approved plan
	forces me to dig 3' down from border to border of my tiny 
	back yard.  This will cut a lot of his roots.  There is no alternative
	to the plan, as I have no room in my yard to fit the system without
	cutting his roots.

	In addition, the design shows running an interceptor drain along
	my border with him, at about 8' deep, which will further cut his
	roots.

	My tree contractor tells me the tree is at risk as is, and even more
	so if I do my work.

	I told  this to my neighbor, and he thought he would take the tree down.
		Later he changed his mind. I then put it in writing, that he
needed
	to take action on the tree (remove it).

	His response:

	1. His tree contractor says the tree is healthy.

	2. He is threatening to take legal action against me to stop 		
	   construction if I start work.

	3. He is telling me the tree is my responsibility and all damages which 
	   might incur are mine. (He says his plot plan shows it ON the border
	   while mine says it is on his side).

	
	My understanding is that what is on my property is mine and I can do
	what I want with it (including cutting off overhanging tree limbs
	if I wanted). But lawyers have told me that I could be liable if it 
	fell after I cut the roots.

	So....


	1.  I have stopped the contractor from starting work.

	2.  I have called the state tree service to come inspect it (maybe they
	    will condemn it for me).

	3.  I am going to survey my lot.

	4.  I am goin to talk with the neighbor to try to resolve it.

	5.  I have a lawyer on standby.

	Bob


	P.S.  There is justice in the world, however.  He is building a shed
		with a concrete footer and slab (already in), U/G power from
		the house, etc.

	      Sice all of this started, I found out he:

		1. Has no building permit (required).
		
		2. Has poured the slab and footers about 4 ft from the property
			line.

		3. Minimum Town setback is 10'.

		4. Gotcha!

    RE: .11
    
    What you do on your property, is your buisness.
    
    I have a real nice maple tree that is close to the street. When the
    sewer line project came by the road, the people cut roots and all.
    No concern for the old tree at all. If the tree roots are on your
    property, they are trespassing. 
    
    If you don't have a property survey, get it done ASAP!
    
    Marc H.

    RE .11 I don't think so.  If the tree is in the neighbor's yard
    and he cuts the tree roots which are in his own yard and causes
    the tree to die/fall as a result of his cutting, I believe
    that he is still liable for the neighbor's tree.  Its not fair,
    I agree, but I think that is the law.  I may be wrong.  
    
    Anyone know the law?

>	3.  I am going to survey my lot.

	    It would be cheaper to pay to get the tree cut down.  You 
	might consider asking the neighbor to split the felling costs 
	50/50.

>	4.  I am goin to talk with the neighbor to try to resolve it.


	    If he's unreasonable, ask for written permission to take the
	tree down and you'll foot the bill.  Then... put the screws into
	the {insert colorful expletive} for bulding the shed so close to
	your property.
					Tim

	Update on my situation in .11.  I talked with him at some length.
	


	1. The tree was originally on his property, but it has encroached onto
		my yard as it grew, pushing into the stone wall and moving
		it  (deeds say C/L stone wall is the property boundary).


		Q1.  Is it his or is it "ours"?

		Q2.  Can I easily get a judgement that he has encroached onto
			my property with tree and roots, and that he has
			to remove the tree?

	2. He wants me to cover the whole cost of the tree removal ($600+)
		(but still doesnt want it cut down, because that will make his
		house hotter in the summer)


	3. I am getting the local city tree inspector to check it out, too.

	

	If it is bad, I may be able to force him to take it down as a public
	safety issue (and be gracious and pay half)

	If it is good, (and root removal wont damage it too much) then I may
	just go ahead and start work).

	If it is good and root removal will damage it (the worst of all cases,
	I dont know what to do.  pay for all of it, but hard to do if he wont
	give permission to take it down.




	Bob (waiting for this to get over........)







 

Your only recourse will be to get the city/town to force him to cut it down
.

If you do anything to diminish it's chance for survival, you're in the 
doghouse.   If it falls on the neighbor's home, they'll come after you as 
well as the owner and you'll wind up footing the bill for the settlement 
(your insurance will, anyways)

One of the guys in my model railroad club just went through the same thing 
in Tyngsboro with a tree on his neighbor's property whose roots had invaded 
his foundation.  If he destroyed the tree by cutting back the roots, the 
town said he'd have to foot the bill for any damages that resulted from the 
tree (a HUGE pine) toppling over onto someone/something.

I think he had someone come in and cut down the tree while his neighbor was 
off at work and they're settling it in the courts.

He's suing the neighbor for the foundation damage since the neighbor's 
claiming he cut down a tree on the property line.  It's a touchy situation 
since the only tangible proof that exists are photographs of the foundation 
damage.  The landscaping as a result of the stump removal has all but 
erased any evidence of where the trunk was so the other guy's got a pretty 
weak case.

Legal precedent -- Michaelson vs. Nutting, 1931 -- had to do with a neighbor's 	
	tree interfering with a property owner's sewer lines. The decision 	
	regrets the fact that trees do not respect property lines, but said
	that the owner of a property has an absolute right to cut off whatever
	encroaches onto his property; that the boundary runs to the center of 
	the earth and up to the sky.
					275 MA 232-234, 1931.


	(but I still dont think this covers liability if the work done 
	causes extraneous damage (not to the tree, but to the house if the 
	house falls)



Consultants

	The following people will check on trees and give expert opinions
	on their condition.


	Skip Hubley, Commonwealth of Mass., Shade Tree Mgmt, 508-562-6217

 
	Dean Charter,  Pres, Massachusetts Tree Association, 508-264-9629
		( he may do it, or may refer to the following two)


	Fred Dodge	(certified arborist for MA and internationally)
	Country Garden Creations
	897-8879

	Ron Despres'  (DePray)   (cerified arborist)
	617-235-7600  (ask for Tree and Park Div.)
	$55/ written opinion; %95/hr for consulting

    
        Driving a heavy vehicle over the roots of a tree can be 
    enough to kill it, so chances are cutting the roots would be even
    a worse case.  Its just a matter of how long it may live after the
    damage has been done.
    
             Mark

        Reply >.15 

    	It sounds like his tree moved a natural boundary line, the stone
    wall. I believe neither of you can upset the wall and both of you are
    responsible for it's maintenance.
    I'd spell it out gently to him, that if he won't split the removal
    costs:			
    	
    		1 You'll be trying to get him to foot the whole bill for
    		  the tree removal and repairs to the stone wall boundary
    		  line.

    		2 Remind him of the set back requirements on his shed and 
    		  the building permit process,which you'll be willing to
    		  overlook.  


    Be a salesman about it and let him see the costs of NOT working with you
    to remove the tree.


    One thing I didn't see was how far the tree is from your new septic
    system design. A tree can strangle a septic system, bigger problem for 
    the tank than the leach field, I believe. Just one more reason you want
    the tree gone.

    Sometimes its hard to be a good neighbor, but well worth the effort.

    Good luck,

    /Jim 

    This collection of stories scares me a bit.  There is a dying maple
    tree right on the border between my house and the house on the downhill
    side.  I don't know who planted the tree.  I didn't, and the house next
    door has been vacant for several months.  I think it is still owned by
    the same guy, who had been renting it out, but I'm not sure.  In any
    case, if it is the same owner, he bought it after I bought my house, so
    he didn't plant the tree either.  I want to have this tree taken out
    and replaced by a non-dying maple tree of the same species.  It was a
    nice tree, a native red maple, but it developed fungus through some
    breaks in the bark, and is now mostly dead.  I had a tree surgeon come
    out and try to save it, but, as the guy expected at the time when he
    did the work, it is apparently not going to survive.
    
    I never did get along very well with the owner of the house next door. 
    And I don't know if he even still owns it - it has been vacant for
    several months and is in rather poor repair, not to mention what the
    yard looks like since nothing has been done over there since last fall.
    The guy was a very aristocratic upper-class Indian, a sikh.  His
    upper-crust attitude was hard to deal with when he lived there.  I
    definitely don't belong to what he considered an appropriate social
    class, or something.  I would really rather not try to find this guy,
    if he even still owns the vacant house, and tell him I am going to have
    anything done on the boundary line - I was glad when he moved, and
    don't really want to deal with him again, if you know what I mean!
    
    I am not trying to get someone else to help pay for getting rid of the
    dying tree and replacing it.  I'm just wondering if I have any
    obligation to find out who owns the vacant house now and tell them I am
    going to have the work done  at my own expense?  Anyone know?  I am
    getting sick of looking at the dying tree, plus it drops branches,
    etc., which are a nuisance even though they are not going to land on my
    car or anything.  The tree is maybe 20' high and about 4" in diameter.
    I could probably get the local landscaper who has done work for me in
    the past to take it out and plant a similar sized healthy maple tree of
    the same species for around $300 or so.
    
    /Charlotte
                                   

re .20:

You should be able to find out if he still owns it by going to the Registry
of Deeds.

    RE: .20
    
    My opinion? Cut it down if its on your property. Call the town if
    its not.
    
    Marc H.

re: .19

>    		2 Remind him of the set back requirements on his shed and 
>    		  the building permit process,which you'll be willing to
>    		  overlook.  


Be careful making promises in this area.  If the town finds out (and
it's sort of difficult to hide a shed), the town can take action
without waiting for a complaint from you.  If this is in MA, many towns
are getting more aggressive with respect to hunting down such illegal
construction - not so much to stick it to the violators directly, but 
because under Prop. 2.5, new construction can add to the tax base.

   Gary

    
    
    	update 
    
    1.	The State is giving me a letter in writing that the tree is
    	diseased and has 1-5 years of life left
    
    2.  I have another arborist coming out Monday to do the same.
    
    3.  The B. of H. inspector has said we have done everything properly
    	and above board as far as he is concerned (he wants the septic in!)
    
    4.	Our contractor is going to work around the roots, and try to save
    	as much as he can, and will sign a contract to that effect.
    
    5.  We are just going to cover our butts in paper (items 1, 2, 4) and
    	begin work next week.
    
    	Let;s see if he tries to shut me down.
    
    6.  Re. 23  -- don't worry, I would not make a deal like that -- it is not
    	for me to overlook, anyway. It will most likely be found out by the
    	city as they inspect our work.
    
    
    bob
    
    

>	2. He wants me to cover the whole cost of the tree removal ($600+)

	    $600.+ ?!?  That sounds like a whole heck of a lot of money to
	cut a tree down.  I'd call around for a better price.
	    As for the neighbor's shed, I think I would ask the inspector
	if it seemed a little too close to the property line.  The set back
	is for your benefit.  Your neighbor apparently doesn't care about
	being neighborly.
					Tim

	Re. 25 -- cost of tree cutting.

	an 80' ash, 20' from my house, 20' from his house, overhanging both
	houses, will need a crane sited at the street, reaching inbetween the
	houses (and around power lines) to hold the  tree as they cut it....

	my neighbor had two 60' pines taken down growing 5' from his foundation

	$1000.


	bob

I thought Acton's shed/garage setback was five feet, dwelling was 15 feet.

	As I'm thinking about having a tree removed my wife mentioned to
	me she saw an add in our local paper that said tree's cut down
	from 99.00 to 199.00 even the most dangerous. I haven't called to
	inquire further as to what exactly that gets you e.g. additonal
	charge to remove the tree.

Oh, you want it not to fall on your house?  There'll be a slight add'l charge...

    
    From the lack of response here, I gather that no one can help out.
    I guess I can call a tree service and ask them, or a landscaper,
    but I was trying to do this myself, and avoid paying to have someone
    do it.
    
    No pointers to books/articles describing this?
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
    

Have you tried the Cooperative Extension?

    
    No, only the local library.  The books they had didn't say much about
    filling in around a tree.  They did mention building a dry well around
    the tree.  A friends son is in Minuteman Voc. School studying land-
    scaping.  I'm going to ask him to see if his teachers know.
    
    I'll also try the Cooperative Extension.
    
    Scott

    Several years back someone sent me a few pages copied from a
    book on landscaping which included extensive instructions on
    how to well/adjust grade around trees without damaging the
    tree.  I don't know if I can still find it, but I'll take a
    look through the files tonight.
    
    (Hint - if you send me mail reminding me there'll be a better
    chance I might remember . . .)

I recently spoke to an arborist about this.  He had raised the hight of his yard by
several feet to accommodate a new spetic system.  I asked if this would kill the 
trees.  He said that provided that there isn't too much compression and that the soil
gets reasonable drainage (air) that they should be fine. 

    I thought I saw something like this in the Victory Garden Landscape
    Book.  Also, I thought I saw a similiar discussion in Gardening notes. 
    Basically, if I remember right, they talked about the same thing,
    making the air available through the stone-filled well.  It might have
    been mentioned after discussing more favorable options.

    
    My last house had two TOWERING pines no more than fifteen feet
    away. The grade had been raised about 2 feet higher around the 
    trunk than it had been before the house was built. Within 1.5 
    years I brought in an arborist to look at the very ill looking
    trees and he just shook his head and complained about the grade
    saying that he's called (too late) more and more these days to 
    look at dead/dying trees killed by improper grading. 
    
    His recipe if you have to raise the grade:
    
    	1. Well around the trees out as far as the drip line.
        2. Avoid filling the well with crushed stone (my idea)
    	   if possible because if the lack of air doesn't kill
           the tree, the excess compression will.
    
    Didn't talk about piping in air though.

    Since you mentioned the GARDEN NOTE...Where did it go?? I haven't
    been able to connect for weeks now...
    
    
                                        -Steve

    It moved to FDCV14::GARDEN.  Check TURRIS::EASYNET_CONFERENCES for
    the latest notesfile locations.
    
    					Steve

    I remember my father (who was a Hortaculturist by trade) telling me a
    long time ago "Never bury exposed bark, don't expose buried root".  Too
    bad he still isn't around to see how well things have done when I followed
    his advice.  It works, and I've never bothered to question it.
    
    I also haven't particularly worried about the drip line reach, though
    that might relate to burying roots that are barely sub surface, and
    therefore smothering them.
    
    Bill

    Thanks Steve....There was no indication of a move to my knowledge.
    
                                 -Steve

There was notice, albeit just a few days.  But ANY time you have problems
accessing a conference, you should check its announcement topic in
EASYNET_CONFERENCES to see if there is any recent news.  If not, read and
follow the instructions in note 1.5 there before taking further action
(such as the popular move of starting a new topic asking where the file
went; 9 out of 10 such entries would be unnecessary if people made use of
the information provided to them.)

					Steve

    Doze-a-tree?

    
    
    I planted a row of pines along my property line a couple of years ago. 
    I'd like to quicken their growth. Is there any type of tree food which
    would speed  up growth?
    
    thanks in advance
    steve

You PLANTED pine trees?  I just got rid of all but the last two on my
property.  Bloody nuisances, they are, though I suppose if they're away
from your house they're ok.  (Too close to the house and they trap water
vapor, encouraging mildew, rot and carpenter ants.)

It's unlikely feeding them much of anything will speed growth.  Make sure that
the soil is acidic (some treatments of Miracid might help) and that they
get enough water during the growing season.

				Steve

There is a organic lawn fertilizer that is sold by Blue Seal that has
instructions on how it can be used to fertilize pine trees.  

I too have planted (well transplanted) many pine trees around my lot - but
always getting futher away from the house.  

PK's has a row of pine trees along their property line to block out "Mr
Lawnmower Man" next to them.  They trim the tops off each year to make them
bushier... at least that is what they said :-)

Brian J.

    
    So what was the verdict?  I have two trees thare are at the bottom of
    a six foot gully I am filling in.  Prefer not to cut them down.
    
    I was thinking of building some sort of wall with the trees I already
    dropped, criss crossing them like a "V" around the trees.
    
    			_________________
    			      \	XX /
                               \  /
                                \/
                                /\
	
    	Filling in around the trees with sand(?) and then dirt 6' on the
    	top?
    
    	Once dirt is pushed up againt the outside of the "V" it will
    	be able to contain sand.
    	Ideas?
    
    

    
    
    When they bulit my house (which is on a hill) they leveled the land a
    little and this caused the tree roots to be further below ground.  Most
    are doing very poorly.
    
                                        Tom

    Burying the roots of trees will eventually kill most of them, though it
    may take a while.  You could build a "well" around the trees and fill
    outside of it - you'd need to make it several feet in diameter to
    accomodate the roots of a big tree, though.  The damage occurs because
    the tree roots are too deep.  So you need to make the well wide enough
    that a lot of the roots are still at their normal depth - about as wide
    as the crown of the tree is, for most species of trees.
    
    /CHarlotte

    
    
    
    I have an apple tree in my backyard that has not been cared 
    for and now produces miniature Macintosh crab apples.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do to bring 
    the tree back so that it will grow larger edible apples?  
    How many growing seasons would it take?  How do we prune
    it?  Fertilize?  Pesticide?
         
    I assume that this tree has been neglected for 10 or more 
    years.
    
    Thanks for any advice.
    Darlene 
    
                            

    	Might want to try the gardening notes file. Perhaps someone there
    can help. It seems odd that you'd have miniture Macintosh though. Are
    you sure they're not just regular crabapples ?
    	
    	Ray

	    I heard a hefty dose of lime is good for an apple tree.

					Tim

    I use Jobs tree spikes.  These are great you just estimate the tree
    size, then using a plastic head that fits over the fertilizer spike
    you pound them in the ground in a circle just outside the drip line of
    the tree.  Then you need not worry about fertilizing for some time.  I
    generally do this in the fall to prep the trees for winter and then
    late in the spring.  
    
    Brian

    I have just moved into a house here in Fairview, TX (north of DFW).  We
    have about 1.2 acres with about 90 trees.  Most of them are Ash, but
    there are about 8-10 Bodark (Osage Orange) trees.  These are the ones
    that produce the big, green horse-apples.
    
    One of the Bodarks is located near the driveway and the front of the
    house, where, if someone parked their car at the wrong time, one of
    these horseapples could fall and put a major dent into there auto's
    hood.
    
    Before I have it removed, we are going to wait until it blooms this
    year and seem if it is a male or female (producing variety).
    
    Is there a way to:
    
    1. Predetermine if a Bodark tree produces fruit?
    2. If a Bodard does produce, is there a way to stop this production
       without having to remove it from the premises?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

>>    1. Predetermine if a Bodark tree produces fruit?

Ask your neighbors about your specific tree.  I'm sure they will remember
what it did in past years.

Jim

	If you do decide to remove the tree, please tell
the woodworking notes file - if the tree is any reasonable
diameter, the wood will be worthwile for someone.  Osage orange,
also known as "bois d'arc" or bow wood, since it's nice for
wooden bows, is a very nice yellow-orange color, very hard
and dense.  Someone nearby will take if off your hands - I 
certainly would if I could get it back to Boston.  They might
even do the cutting-down for you.

    
    Every year I prune 2 evergreen shrubs that we have on our cemetary
    plot. One shrub does not have any new growth from appox. 1/4 from the top
    to the base. These are very old shrubs....probably 40 years old. Is
    there any way to try to get some new growth from the bottom up or
    should I just start a new and take them out ?
    
    thanks,

I just put in some Capita Yew in the ground a few weeks ago, and I have been
watering the shrubs every other day. I put the shrubs in the  ground with 
the burlapp sack still attached to them. Some of the greens are starting to 
turn brown, and they are looking they are starting to die. 
I just put plant food around all the shrubs, but I have not seen any 
improvement.

Does anybody have any ideas how I can rescue these shrubs?   





                       <<< Note 658.0 by PARITY::SZABO >>>
                              -< Trees & Shrubs >-

    About 2 months ago, I bought 2 trees from a local nursery.  One
    was a red maple, the other was a crabapple.  The owner explained
    in full detail how to plant them, which I did exactly.  The leaves
    on the red maple have since lost all color and are shriveled-up,
    ready to crumble, but are still on the tree.  The crabapple has
    done well until about 2 weeks ago, when half of its leaves turned
    yellow and fallen off (the remaining leaves still appear healthy).
    
    I'm not too concerned about the crabapple, but the red maple looks
    really sick.  I've been told that trees go into "shock" when they're
    first planted, but I've expected to see them fully recovered by
    now.
    
    Anyone have experience with new trees?  Any suggestions on what
    to do, especially for the red maple?
    
    Thanks'
    John

When you say you left the burlap wrapped around, do you mean that you left it
still gathered up around the root ball?  I think that you are supposed to at
least undo it at the top and push it down so that the roots have at least some
path out until the burlap deteriorates.

Also, I think that this "keep the burlap on" stuff is sort of like the cars
that advertise that you can go 12000 miles between oil changes. Yeah, you can,
but not if you drive it anywhere :-)

I'm not much of an expert on this kind of thing, but my wife is, so I've picked
up some stuff along the way.

Burns

    Thats right, when you plant a new tree you leave the burlap bag on, but
    you are supposed to loosen it and roll it down some.  Also you really
    prune them way back too.
    
    Brian

    
    
    re . last few.
    
    Why leave the burlap bag on at all ... what's the value-added for
    leaving it on instead of just taking it off completely.
    
    Personally I ALWAYS take it off and have never had a problem .. my
    shrubs and trees ALWAYS have done well.
    

>    Why leave the burlap bag on at all ... what's the value-added for
>    leaving it on instead of just taking it off completely.
    
    It probably depends on what the tree/shrub was planted in.  If it
    was clay, then the root ball will probably hold together pretty well
    even without the burlap.  I in a sandy loam, then the dirt may just
    fall off.  You want to keep as much of the roots undisturbed as
    possible with as much dirt as possible around them.
    

>    Why leave the burlap bag on at all ... what's the value-added for

likely to protect any guarantee from the nursery.

I had a landscaper plant a tree for me once and it turned out to 
be a dud tree. It never leafed out.  When the nursery came to 
replace the tree (for free!), they were pretty upset that the burlap 
was off and I almost didn't get a free tree replacement.

I don't think that the problem is so much having the burlap off as it is that
it is difficult to do, especially if you are doing it by hand.  It means
lifting the tree by the trunk, etc etc.

In the best of all worlds it would be off, but better to leave it on (peeling
it down as much as possible) than to break lots of stuff off.

Burns