Conference 7.286::home_work

    Novice home owner here. 
    Question: How do you remove mildew oder from kichen(birch)
    cabinets. They were sitting in the basement for at least one year,
    looks like more.
    
    
    contact
    gary (ecad) schipani
    dtn; 223 8072
    
    thanks
    

A diluted bleach solution is the standard mildew solution.

Assuming that the cabinets are finished (not bare wood), I'd wash them
with this solution and dry them off.  

Now, how do you get the bleach smell out of your cabinets.  :-)

--ed    

    Tried bleach, it didn't work. Would love to have bleach smell instead
    of mildew. Honest.
    :-)
    Gary

    
    Try TSP (tri sodium posphate). You can get it anywhere (about $2.00)
    a box. It took the mildew off my house. It's strong, so wear gloves.
    

Although the (most ?) active ingredient in Spic N Span is the
familiar TSP, it's been muddled with detergents, colors and fragrances.

Get your TSP straight from the hardware store.

    Well Gang, tried TSP and bleach together, twice over the weekend.
    Smell still there. Have decided to sand cabinet down, and cover
    with polyurethane. Maybe that will do it.
    
    I'll let you know.
    Thanks for the help.
    
    Gary

    Just an update. Have the cabinets sitting in basement waiting to
    be sanded. Have them next to dehuimidifier. Can't smell any mildew.
    Guess the tsp and bleach worked once the moisture was removed. Should
    note though, the tsp directions called for one QT of bleach to 3
    Qts of warm water.
    That's what I did the first time. The second time I replaced one
    qt of water with a second qt of bleach

    I'm looking for someplace in S. NH  where I can find a large selection
    of kitchen cabinet hardware. The cabinets we have now, have hardware
    that apparently is larger than standard. I say this because we have
    been to places like hammer, etc and cannot find any except the same
    ones, that will line up with the existing holes.
    
    any suggestions.?
    
    Oh BTW, we will purchase the kind with a backplate if we cannot
    find what we are looking for.
    
    thanks
    
    Gary

    Try Somerville Lumber in Pelham (Rt. 38).  They have the largest
    and most impressive display of home improvement materials in the
    area.  Their prices are good also.
    
    _John

    Thanks John. I have to be out that way Sat. I'll take a look.
               
    Gary
    

STOP!  If you need a lot of hardware it is well worth you while to go to
SPAGS!!!  Their hardware is the brand most places carry and it's just about
half price.  Most people don't realize how many hinges/knobs there are in
a kitchen.  We had to buy something like 30 pairs of hinges and knobs and saved
over $75.  For an example the average pair of hinges I've seen there goes for 
about $1.29 while most other places charge around $2.39.  The same diffence
applies to the knobs.

If you EVER wanted an excuse to go to Spags but couldn't justify the expense of
going all the way there, you have the perfect excuse.  Cabinet hardware is one
of the best deals you can get there!

-mark

    I am looking for laminate (street name:  Formica).  Is there a place
    that sells it in sizes smaller than 4' X 8'?

I know that Liberty Millwork in Hudson, NH does, but I suspect that you ought 
to be able to find a lot of places that will.

Paul

    I meant to add that I am looking for laminate in the Marlboro/Maynard
    area.

    Plywood Ranch on Rt.27 in Acton sell 'formica' on special order
    by stock sizes widthxlength.  I have purchased 30"x96" and 24"x72"
    there.  Bill G.
    

    I've bought it at Coldwell's in Berlin; they have both "Formica"
    and generic equivalents (which some people claim aren't as good
    but I haven't noticed any difference except price in the brands
    Coldwell's carries).  It comes in various standard sizes, not
    just 4x8.
    

    I just found a place - Larkin lumber in Hudson.  It is sold in various
    sizes as small as 30" X 6'.  They sell Formica brand.

    
    	HAAS cabinets are the finest I've seen.  Quality construction
    	and all wood, no particle board.  Quality price too!  But you
    	get what you pay for.

    I'm in the process of putting my in now. 
    
    I found the Merrillat  to be inexpensive, but also cheap. Lots
    of partical board with vinyl covering. I stayed away.
    
    Medallion cabinets are nicely made but were a little too pricey
    for me.
    
    I ended up at Penny Pincher Cabinets in Shrewsbury, they also have
    a place in Framingham. All wood contruction, and appear to be well
    made. They don't have fancy brochures and they don't deliver. If
    you go in with detailed dimensions of your room they will sit down
    and help you plan it and give you a printed estimate. They have
    most of the standard cabinets so if you have a design sheet from
    some other brand of cabinets you can pretty much plan your own kitchen
    before you get there. They will even lend you a video tape of
    installation instructions when you pick up your cabinets.
    
    Prices for basically the same 18 running foot of L shaped cabinet
    layout were as follows:
    	
    	Merrillat	$1200
    
    	Medallion	$3600
    
    	Penny Pincher	$2100
    
     All the prices were for oak front cabinets.

>        I ended up at Penny Pincher Cabinets in Shrewsbury, they also have
>    a place in Framingham. All wood contruction...
    
    It depends what you call "wood".  I like to think of "wood" as the
    stuff you get when you cut a tree up.  (I don't mean from a grove
    of Plywood trees in the Amazon).  Not that there's anything wrong
    with birch or oak plywood....I just don't like when a place advertises
    that some piece of furniture is solid wood when it's plywood.
    
    Penny Pincher cabinets, like most, are made mostly from plywood.
    
        Only the fronts are 100% wood.  (BTW, I have Penny Pincher cabinets,
    and I like them, so I'm not trying to cut up Penny Pincher.).
    
    What are the HAAS cabinets mentioned earlier made of?
    

    	I just had some Wood-Mode oak cab. installed. We are very
    	satisified with the quality.
    

    re .3
    
    By wood I meant solid wood face frames, doors and drawer fronts
    with the cabinet box made of plywood. No particle board or hardboard.

    I went through the same hunting phase that you are presently going
    through and I had found that the best valve was made by a local
    company called "Crown Point". They are a custom made cabinet, so
    you can have them make anything. The quality is very high, with
    solid wood frames and doors, with solid maple draws (not particle
    board), beautiful draw slide systems and real hardwood venered sides.
    You can also order the entire cabinet to be made off of solid hardwood,
    including the backs and side panels but the cost increases
    substantially (I had this done to the center island work station
    - Raised panels on 3 slides, solid oak - BBBBeauuutiful) One other
    thing I liked about the Crown Point Line was that the manufacturer
    uses only minwax stains so you can pick from numerous colors which
    are easily matched. You also have a choice of oak, cherry, maple,
    ash, pine etc., which is also great. The only drawback is that you
    have to wait about 6 weeks for delivery. They cost alittle more
    then your high production brands but they are sure worth it. See
    Milford lumber in Milford NH. for a nice display.
    

    Another vote for the value (combination of price and quality) of
    Penny Pincher in Shrewsbury.  Bought one vanity from them, and plan
    on getting more for the addition we're doing.  Good solid woo{ (oak
    in this case), built well, for a good price.  Did a lot fo shopping
    around.
    
    -reed
    

    Just wanted to mention that Penny Pincher just opened a new store
    in the Fitchburg area (in the new plaza near Capitol Warehouse).
    
    Cheryl
    

      I am verry happy with my Penny Pincher cabinets. I spent ~$2100.00
     for 18 ft of lower cabinets and about 12ft of upper cabinets.  That
     price also includes formica countertops. That was one of  the  only
     places that I found solid wood construction. Oak fronts and doors..
     wood shelves and sides.  I tried Orsi and sons at Webster Sq. Worc.
     Sommerville  Lumber,  Grossouts  etc....My  only  regret was that I
     ordered the cherry finish instead of the natural oak.
                                                           /Brian

    Penny Pincher also has a store located on Moody St. in Waltham.
    
    					Steve

    We are in the process of installing a complete kitchen made for
    us by Adelphi.  The cabinets are all wood except for the shelves
    which are particle board.  Our kitchen is 14 x 19 feet with an island
    that is 30" x 78".  The cabinets seem to be of a very high quality
    and were delivered right to our door by motor freight from the
    manufacturer.  We also bought some Crown Point cabinets from a showroom
    that was moving.  The quality of the Crown Point units are definitely
    less than that of the Adelphi.  I'm glad that the Crown Point are
    only going into the sewing room for my wife's storage of material
    and supplies.  The only things in the Crown Point units that are
    real wood are the cabinet fronts and the doors.  The prices that
    are normally charged for the Crown Point cabinets are high and the
    quality is not.  Check out the Brammer cabinets at Sommerville Lumber.
     They were our second choice.  We may be a little bit strange, but
    we prefer the cherry because it appears richer and also because
    oak is so common.
    
    Bruce Bretschneider
    
    P.S.  We can give you the name of a kitchen designer who specializes
    in Adelphi if you would like to make a comparison.
    wood is the front of the cabinet and the doors.

    A friend of mine has an older home with built in place
    kitchen cabinets.  These have the original "cottage" type
    hardware which is elaborate black metal.  He wants to replace
    the hinges and handles with something more contemporary.
    We've started to price hardware and it's quite
    expensive.  Does anyone have a recomendation for
    a place that sells cabinet hardware at reasonable prices in
    NH?  I'm also open to mailorder or Spags if they are really cheaper.
    
    thanks in advance.
    

>>>        I'm also open to mailorder or Spags if they are really cheaper.

         Sounds like you already know the answer...  Yes, it's really
    cheaper.

    I bought some porcelain knobs for my kitchen cabinets a couple years
    ago  at Spag's.  By far the cheapest price around.  (They might seem
    like an even better value if I ever install them!) 
    
    -joet

     It might not be the best price around, but Summerville Lumber in
    Westboro has a large assortment of cabinet hardware.
    
    					Kenny

     I bought porcelin ball knobs and drawer pulls at Sommerville
    and they also have them at the Fair in Auburn. They both have 
    a good assortment. Dig deep in the bins for old priced knobs.

    Penny Pincher also has a store in Nashua NH.  Corner of East Hollis
    Street and Spring St.
    

    
    	Penny Pincher also has a store in Walpole MA.  It is right on
    route 1 across the street from Grossmans.  If you are in the area
    you should check out General Builders on Rt 1 in Norwood.  They
    have a good selection of kitchen cabinets and reasonable prices.

>    A friend of mine has an older home with built in place
>    kitchen cabinets.  These have the original "cottage" type
>    hardware which is elaborate black metal.  He wants to replace
>    the hinges and handles with something more contemporary.

Please, when he takes the original hardware off, urge him not to throw it 
away.  Just put it in the attic (in a bag, preferably labelled and dated)
and forget it.  Someone, someday, will be glad he did. 

It was the word "original" that set me off.  If something is really junk - 
i.e. poorly made - pitch it.  But if it's just old or out of fashion, 
squirrel it away for the future, especially if it's small and easily
stored.  Your house will very likely outlive you, and it will certainly
outlast the current notions of what's "more contemporary". 

    We went to Penny Pincher (several times, in fact) as well as many
    "Kitchen Design" places, but finally ended up with Schrock cabinets
    from somerville lumber.. we're very happy with them, the quality
    is easily better than the Penny Pincher (I admit, that's somewhat
    subjective; no flames, please!), and the cost turned out to be slightly
    less (yeah, I was surprised, too..) 
    
    then, between the free delivery and paying for it with my Somerville
    Lumber card, it turned out pretty well... 'tho the DID screw up
    the formica order...
    
    ...tek

    There's a place in Turners Falls (Ma) called Renovator's Supply.
    
    They specialize in reproduction of early everything.
    
    Don't know the prices or if they mail, but a phone call should tell
    you the answer.
    
    dana

                I know they have a catalog, I've seen it but don't have
        a current (or old) copy. 
                
                /s/     Bob

One thought on kitchen cabinets is Kitchen Associates.  The bad news is 
they are EXPENSIVE.  The good news is for around $30 (5 years ago, 
they've no doubt gone up), they'll do a complete cabinet design.  Then, 
if you buy the cabintes from them they'll give you a credit.  If all you 
intend to do is replace your cabinets and keep the same layout, this is 
no big deal, but if you're looking for a new design they do excellent 
work.

After we got our design, they called us in to go over it (and try and 
seel us new cabinets).  Although we were determined not to even consider 
it, they showed us some real nice ones.  Nevertheless, $5K was more than 
we wanted to spend at the time (remember, this was 5 years ago) so we 
simply hired a carpenter and had the same design executed for around 
$1K.

-mark

    They also have a store in the Liberty Tree Mall in Danvers.
    However, they don't sell the type of hardware you're looking
    for based on the original note.  (contemporary and inexpensive).
    

    
    re: Kitchen Assoc.
    
    When we were building our house, our architect, who had been using
    them exclusively, sent us there. They would not even give us a
    detailed bid unless we put up 5% front money; all they'd give us
    was the bottom line, which, as noted above, was expensive.
    
    I got the feeling that they did not want our business, so we went
    elsewhere. The place we wound up with is Carpenter Hill Cabinet
    Works in Keene, NH. The guy we dealt with was Brian Cahill. Good
    work good to work with, and good prices. They can do everything
    from bottom-of-the line stock cabinets to full custom work.
    
    Stu
    

rep:-1

I guess all good things must come to and end and I guess KA got too big 
and popular to do that design type stuff I had referred to.  Just goes 
to show you how a place can change.  sigh...

-mark

    	I just had Kitchen Associates do my kitchen, They still do the
    	design for $35.00 which they will apply to the balance of your
    	account. (if you buy). You can't get copies of the layouts
    	unless : you buy from them or give them 10% of there estimated
    	cost.
    
    				Steve
    

    
    re: .18
    
    In other words, estimates from them cost $35, non-refundable if
    you don't buy through them. And they make it difficult for you 
    to comparison shop by not letting you take their layout away
    with you to study.
    
    What a deal.
        

When we used KA, they too wouldn't give us detailed plans, but they 
would give us their drawings which where done to scale but with no 
dimensions.  As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough!  At least it 
was enough for us to build the same design.

They MUST at least be willing to give you something to take home.  After
all, how are you supposed to spend a couple of days thinking about it if 
you don't have the plans in front of you?

-mark

    
    RE .20
    	All of the places that I went to for kitchen design would not
    let you walk out the door with the kitchen plans without putting
    some money down.  Most required $100-200 that would be applied to
    the cost of the cabinets.
    	They would give you rough drawings, but not the detailed plans
    and cabinet list.

    
    re: .21
    
    Carpenter Hill Cabinets in Keene gave us detailed plans and pricing
    as part of their quote, no $$ down.
    

re:21

Rough sketches are fine enough if you're looking for a basic layout.  
One you have this, it would be relatively easy to take it to anyone and 
ask them to fill in the unknowns.

Remember, we're talking DESIGN here.  That is the expensive part that 
people get the big $$'s for.  If all you want to do is replace existing 
cabinets and not change anything around, this is not for you.

-mark

    We are re-doing our kitchen.  So far Brammer Cabinets seems like
    a good comprimise for cost/quality.  Sommerville cliams 5 days
    for delivery, 10 days for counter tops.  Does anybody have any
    experience with Brammer/Sommerville?  We hacked out a resonable
    design using the selctor guides.  Does anybody want to recommend
    someone who does a good cabinet installation? (Westboro area).
    
    	Jeffrey Friedberg (296-6630)
    

    re: .24
    
    Jeff;
    
    I live in Westboro and did my own kitchen about 8 years ago. Do
    you have any thoughts to doing it yourself? If you are thinking
    about that as a possibility, give me a call and I can give you a
    tour of my kitchen, what to watch out for, how to get around
    problems,etc. I'm not an expert but one kitchen behind you is enough
    to have some thoughts on doing it.......
    
    Vic Hamburger DTN 262-8261

    We have just had a 16' x 24' addition added to the side of our house.
    The space will be used for a new kitchen and a dining area.  The
    addition is unfinished on the interior, weather tight and finished
    on the exterior.  My husband is considering (read that: would really
    like to!) trying to make the kitchen cabinets.
    
    Our question is has anyone out there done this?  Do you have any
    stories to share, good or bad?  What type of tools were required?
    What is the time involved for this type of project?  Do you save
    any money (this is not the top objective, basically the desire to
    build is not driven by the money to be saved, but I don't want to
    spend more in wood, tools etc., but saving money would be a big
    plus!!!)
    
    More background:  I would want fairly simple cabinets, no nooks
    and crannies to catch more dust, grease etc.,  the tools currently
    available would be a table saw, router, electric planner, and basic
    hand tools, no fancy hand tools.  
            
    Any comments/advise would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Kathy
    

    
    Funny you should ask........ I am considering making some cabinets
    myself, not kitchen cabinets, but for a laundry room.  
    
    I happened to find out that a friend of mine is also in the process
    of building cabinets for his living room, so I figured I'd check
    out his work and get some hints, etc.
    
    I was VERY impressed with the work he's doing, and it certainly
    has given me the confidence to do my own. He got a Better Homes
    and Gardens, Cabinets and Shelves book for Christmas, and while
    it may not be the difinitive book on the subject, it certainly has
    provided him with the information needed to do an outstanding job.
    
    His main tools are table saw, and sand paper.
    
    Send me mail if you want his node::name.
    
    rgds, Ray
    

    I've done a lot of carpentry in my time, but always avoided this
    one for the following reasons:
    
    1) Repetitive.  Any decent size kitchen has lots of cabinets.  You are
    going to wind up doing the same operations hundreds of times.  You
    have to have the right personality for this.  I don't.  I get impatient
    and go too fast == shoddy work.
    
    2) Yes you can probably save a lot of money.  The retail price of
    kitchen cabinets is probably more than 75% labor.  But you have
    to factor in what your time is worth to you.  A decent size kitchen
    is going to take months of weekends to do right (including finishing
    etc).
    
    3) Some basic decisions need to be made on construction.  In general,
    you cannot get solid wood in the widths necessary to do make cabinets
    so you have to decide whether you're going to veneer some kind
    of underlay, or use solid wood and glue up multiple boards, or use
    plywood and edge banding, or plywood centers with solid wood borders,
    etc, etc.  Note that the time to make just one door with any of
    these techniques can be considerable.
    
    4) Any of the options involving solid wood will go a lot faster
    and look better if you add a jointer to your tool list.
    
    I hope you have the patience to do it. Commercial kitchen cabinets
    are unbelievably overpriced because they hope you don't.  >Good
    luck.
    
    Jim

    That's the one! Better Homes & Gardens, I was trying to remember
    the name. Between this book and Time/Life I taught myself the basics
    of cabinet making. The rest comes from experience.
    
    re:.2> I can't agree more. this type of work takes time. But if
           you have patience and the desire to create your own.......
    
      Nothing pleases me more than to step back and admire a project
    that I took the time to do right.
    
    As far as the style of your kitchen cabinets:
    
    you could do 'raised panel doors'
    which is certainly most attractive in my opinion...or 'euro style'
    (european) kind of contempory look, no fancy door. The later is
    described in a pamphlet by American Grass Inc. These people specialize
    in the door hardware (hinges) for cabinets. These hinges BTW are
    mounted inside the cabinet completely hidden fron view once the
    cabinet door is closed.Nice stuff.
    
    Good Luck
    Mark

I am building the cabinets for our house.  We built the whole house, so we 
figured we could tackle the cabinets.  We only put in enough to get the sink in 
before we moved in, and we're getting ready to put some more in.

Making the cabinet frames is fairly easy.  The main part is simply a plywood 
box.  The face frame is fairly easy to make also, just being a collection of 
sticks dowelled together.

It's when you get to the doors that it gets harder.  Probably the nicest 
looking kind of doors are raised panel doors.  If your router is a 1/2" shank 
model, the there are router bits available to make these doors.  They are even 
available as 'door-making kits' which have two bits for making the outside 
frame, one for making the raised panels, and one for the door lip.  These kits 
run about $200.  You'll probably have to make a router table to use these 
effectively, though.

I have a book called 'Building your own Kitchen Cabinets' by Jere Cary, that's 
available through the Taunton Press (Publishers of Fine Woodworking).  It's
got pretty much everything you need to know.

And of course, if you run into problems, just ask here.  Someone's bound to 
have an answer for you.

Paul

    From my experience, you're looking at a really FUN project if you
    approach it by deciding that you're going to frame the things and
    contract out the countertop (if it's composite) and (here's the
    catch) the cabinet doors.
    
    If you'll do the counters yourself you'll need a good general-purpose
    router with a special bit or a small laminate trimmer (just a small
    router with bit).
    
    I have one suggestion that may or may not apply: I wish I had left
    something like 2.5-3 inches of drop on the faces so that I could
    mount countertop lights (fluorescent) underneath the cabs.  I put
    in all the wiring and switches without considering the thickness
    of the available units.
    
    Which leads me to a question: does anyone know of fluorescent fixtures
    that are only about 1.5 inches thick so they don't show below the
    skirt?
    
    Pete

>    contract out the countertop 

Hmm.  That's really not so tough to do.  Quite easy, in fact.

Paul

    re .5
    
    	Check out the Progress lighting fixtures book.  I just bought
    a 36" long 1.5" thick fluoresent fixture for under my counter top.
    It will be wall switched, but I beleive the fixture has knock outs
    for a direct switch.  It cost on the order of $40-$50.
    	

         I have built 2 kitchens in the past year for other people.
       You can save time and money by using vanieered plywood for
       the sides that show. I used A/C or A/B grade plywood for the
       what was inside of the cabinets. You just have to remember
       to put the good side in so when you open the doors you see 
       a good side of the ply.
          For doors, I was luckey, they wanted flat doors. SO in
       that case I used vanieered plywood and vanieered all edges
       with rolled wood vanieer.
         one other sugestion, on the top cabinets, for mounting,
       I put 2+6 blocks in the walls at top and bottom before the
       new sheetrock was put in to make sure I would hit a hard
       spot with every screw.
            bottom cabinets should have corner blocks to mount
       the counter top down.
    
    
    
         Lou Raymond 

>       I used A/C or A/B grade plywood for the inside of the cabinets. 

You can also get 3/4" birch plywood, which is real nice for cabinet interiors, 
and exteriors if you want to stay with birch, for about $35 a sheet at many 
lumberyards.  There's also a place in Somerville - I think the name is Boulter 
Plywood - that specializes in hardwood plywood.  All different types of veneers
and thicknesses.

One thing to definitely NOT do is make a solid wood side for a plywood cabinet.
The plywood does not move with the weather, but the wood does, and I guarantee
the wood side will crack.

Paul

    A good place to get hardwood plywood is Tri-Moore in Ayer, MA.  It's
    a self service lumberyard.  You go in, fill up your truck, and pay
    on the way out.  They have birch and oak plywood in a couple
    thicknesses.
                                                                 

        I just built cabinets for my living room (re .2, thanks for the
        compliment Ray). I built two units which measure 31" wide, 27"
        deep and 36" high. I used plywood (3/4 A/C) and poplar. The
        Better Homes and Gardens book was my guide. Before I got the
        book, I couldn't figure out where to begin, but it's really not
        that hard.
        
        To give you an idea of time and money, I've invested around $120,
        and so far around 34 hours (nites and weekends) to finish the
        carcass, frame, 4 doors and 4 drawers. That includes all the
        hardware and finishing (stain and two coats of urethane). And I
        agree with the reply a few back, it's very rewarding to stand
        back and appreciate a job you took the time to do well.
        
        Have fun!  Jay

    I agree with Paul in .4......The book by Jerry Carey (?) is excellent
    and worth the investment. It takes you thru a logical process to
    build any cabinet you could imagine. It is reasonable in language
    and does not anticipate a 1.6 milion $$$$ shop worth of tools to
    accomplish any particular step. Sounds like you have all the tools
    needed to do what you want.
    
    Vic 

    I also agree about the Jere Cary book...it's very imformative and
    takes you through the entire process.
    
    -lz

    Okay, I tried this weekend to find the Carey and H&G books; couldn't.
    Can y'all give any pointers on where to by them ??
    
    Dwight (tyro-at-large)

RE: < Note 790.14 by AMULET::FARRINGTON "statistically anomalous" >

I got the H&G book for Christmas. My wife bought it at K-Mart.

Jay

    We found the Jere Cary book at Lauriat's in Boston on Saturday.
    It was a paperback and cost was $12.95 if I remember correctly.
    
    We are still looking for the H&G
    
    Kathy

You can get the Jere Cary book mail order from a number of places.  One place 
that I have the address handy is:

Garrett Wade
161 Ave. of the Americas
New York, NY  10013


Paul

    
    Just a quick comment reguarding tools required, in general.
    
    While having all the power tools will make the job a lot easier
    and less time consuming, keep in mind that none are required, if
    you have the time and patience for hand tools.
    
    Before the turn of the century, almost all work was done with hand
    tools (and most of it from what I can tell was alot better done
    than most of the stuff you buy today!).
    
    						Jack Rearick.
    

      I've seen soffits done both ways and I think it looks much nicer
    with a 7" overhang with flush socket lights or flourescent light
    fixtures built in. When I put up my cabinets I left the area open
    for plates, antiques, old bottles etc.
                                              /BB

    
    	How much distance is there from the top of the cabinets to the
    ceiling?  If you have high (8.5 ft) ceilings you might consider
    putting up a galley rail around the top and use the space for baskets,
    dried flowers or what ever you collect.  The galley rail molding
    is a series of two inch dowls spaced about three inches apart. 
    	If you have standard 7.5 ft ceilings I'd use the soffits with
    an overhang.  I'm not sure I'd put lights up there, I prefer
    undercounter lighting.

    Second the reccomendation for extending them a foot and installing
    down-lights for the counters. However, you can also do it flush
    and make it look good, by covering the joint with a thin strip
    of molding.

    My carpenter wants to build the soffits flush and install molding
    afterwards.   The ceilings are 7.5 ft.  
    I'm tempted to do an overhang of a few inches, but I won't be putting
    lighting in there.
    
    The carpenter wants to build the soffit *after* the cabinets are
    installed, if there is no overhang. I think if there is an overhang,
    the soffit frame must be built 1st.
     
    thanks,
    ...bill

I've allways wondered why people put those "soffit"s above their cabinets... I
can see leaving an open space to display knickknacks, but I'd much prefer to
have my cabinets go all the way to the ceiling.  There is allways a use for more
storage space...

Jim. 

    RE: *
    
        I've got an island with cabinets above it.  In order to keep all
    cabs at the same height, I need a soffit over the island cabs. Sooo..
    there needs to be a soffit over the "other" cabs to match.  I agree,
    that space up there is wasted.

    ..bill
    

     The space on top is usually wasted anyway, since it is so high
    most people can't reach it. 
      I won't tell you how to make your kitchen but I will give you
    an observation; if you have an overhang above your cabinets with
    a ceiling of 7'5" it will give the top of the cabinets a somewhat
    massive, hanging over you look.
    
    					Kenny

RE: -.1

The top space may be wasted, because a lot of people can't reach it, but it's
still a lot more accessable then the attic or basement, which is where the stuff
you might put in there would be otherwise...

Jim. 

    Has anyone had any experiences with BRAMMER  kitchen cabinets ??
    
    We are thinking of using them in our kitchen re-do.  We saw them
    at Somerville lumber who designed our kitchen for us for 'free'.
    We are making some modifications to it but he had some decent ideas.
    Seemed like a good buy and the cabinets appeared to be of excellent
    quality.  I'd be interested in any war stories or good experiences.

    
    
    	I vote for the soffit with an overhang.  To me, the no 
    	soffit look makes the cabinet look unfinished.  I
    	have seen the overhang approach done and liked it
    	very much.
    
    	I will be building a new home and plan on going with
    	the 1' overhang with recessed lighting. I've seen this
    	done and like it very much.  It's all a matter of
    	personal choice.
    
    	Tony
    	

    I read many notes on kichen cabinets but I haven't seen anything
    on what I am considering doing.
    
    I read in the notes that good kitchen cabinets are not made of
    particle board or plywood. That good cabinets are made from
    solid hard woods.
    
    My kitchen cabinets are 18 years old (we are the original owners
    of the house) and are made of a very hard solid wood...all around.
    
    I want to refinish them. Strip them down and restain them in Oak.
    They are presently finished in a dark finish (Jacoben) with the
    signs of wear from 3 kids who are teenagers now and are hopefully
    about to turn into humanes...that's why all the refurbishing hype.
    
    Some Questions:
    
     1. How difficult would it be to strip these down with the least
        amount of sanding (chemical strippers)? I plan on taking off 
        the doors and taking out the drawers and finishing them in the 
        basement or the garage.
    
    2.  What about the remaining frames? Any ideas on how to do the 
        frames in place without messing up the adjacent cieling and
        walls ? 
    
    3.  Are there people around who strip/refinish kitchen cabinets?
        Do they do it with the cabinets in place or do they take them
        down and back to their place ? I am not sure but I think the
        cabinets are nailed in place. At first clance, I didn't see 
        any screw heads.
    
    4.  What are some ball park figures on what it would cost for someone 
        to strip/refinish them ? 
    
    5.  Anyone like that around in the Nashua - Manchester area ?
    
    6.  We will be changing all the hardware as well. This means filling
        in the old screw holes. Will plastic wood suffice for this ?
        I am concerned that they not show after the new stain is applied.
    
 I am leaning towards doing this myself, so any advice I can get before
 I commit would be appreciated.
    
   
Thanks,
 Bob       

I can't imagine refinishing the cabinets in place...  You will save a *lot*
of headache by dismounting them.  Can you imagine holding a sander over your
head for n hours per cabinet?

You *should* be able to change the hardware, but use or cover the old hardware
holes with the new hardware...

Jim.

    
    
    	I don't know how easy it will be to take the frames off, or
    	even if you can do it.   I know in my parents house, the 
    	cabinets have been refinished 3 times.  What you should do
    	is to take all the doors off, remove the hardware and take
    	them to someone who has a planer.  Many refinishing places
    	have planners.  You can plane a very thin layer off the
    	doors leaving bare surface.  This will save lots of time.
    
    	As for the frames, I would use a chemical stripper.  This is
    	much easier than tring to sand the frames.  
    
    	As an alternative, if your cabinets are in really bad shape,
    	you can have everything covered with a thin layer of formica.
    	Yuk, you say, I've seen some very nice jobs done with this
    	approach.  The cabinets look brand new after.
    
    	Tony

    
    	Note from the expert cabinet hanger....  :^)
    
    	My dad and I refinished his cabinets about five years ago. It
    was a lot of work, but not highly skilled labor.  First what kind
    of door do you have?  If it is raised panel it will be harder to
    get the stuff off than if it has a flat panel.  Make sure that it
    is not a laminate veneer.   If you use chemical strippers it can
    eat at the glue.
    	We didn't take the frames off of the walls.  As a person who
    just installed cabs two weeks ago, you really don't want to take
    them down.  After taking off the doors and draws all that is left
    is the 2" frame to sand by hand.  
    	You might consider using the 'Homer Formby' method.  It dissolves
    the old finish and flows it over the wood again.  It will clear
    up any surface irregularities, but will not lighten the color.
    	By all means refinish you cabs.  Cabinets that are all real
    wood are beyond the range of most budgets.  Good luck.
    					=Ralph=

    I recently completed the exact same job -- very dark stained oak
    cabinets stripped and made light.  It wasn't exactly fun, but it
    came out fine.
    
    The first thing I did was remove all doors and drawers.  I then
    used ZipStrip and steel wool followed by ZipStrip with Clorox and
    steel wool (per label directions).
    
    I did most of the work and especially or obviously the frames
    inside, over Formica countertops (I originally planned to replace
    them).
    
    The mess was minimal, the rubbing was maximal, and the end result
    most pleasing.  After stripping the old stain, I arrived at just
    about the exact color my wife said she wanted; a coat of poly
    with no stain finished the job.
    
    The hardware was easy.  My doors and drawers have no pulls and I
    found suitable hinges that fit the existing drill holes.
    
    Send mail if you want more details.
    

re: taking the frames off

I've noticed that most good cabinet face-frames are attached from the
back using cleats and screws. Are they also glued on? or are they
removeable. When I built cabinets, I took the lazy way and nailed the
frames on and covered the nail holes. But since then I have examined
cabinets wherever I go and noticed that good cabinets ARE all hardwood
(including the drawers), and the frame is attached from the back. I also
tried to get 1/2" hardwood to make my drawers with and couldn't find any.
I ended up using 1/2" plywood with 1/4" bottoms.

Jay

    CUSTOM CABINET FRONTS, INC.
    
    
    
    
    With all the notes on cabinets... we tried a different approach
    and got a quote from a cabinet re-surfacer.... Has anyone had any
    experience with this type of service and the company listed above???
    
    
    They take the doors and drawers off of your present cabinets and
    replace them with "solid oak or cherry hardwood" fronts and cover
    the existing cabinets with 1/4" oak or cherry panels that are stained
    and finished to match the new doors and drawers.  This seems like
    something different than I have read in this notes file and was
    wondering if anyone has had this approach as part of their re-modeling
    project?
    
    
    The company,CUSTOM CABINET FRONTS, INC., was based out of a town
    in Mass. called CHARLTON and listed a Framingham phone number as
    well as a toll-free...
    
    
    They quoted ~3500 dollars for the entire job including building
    a new "island" cabinet in the middle of the kitchen and said that
    it would take about 5 weeks to make the new doors and drawers and
    there would be a 4 day ave. install time......
    
    
    Comments?????
    
    
    Leo

    I am interested to hear the experiences of others who may have gone
    this route.  I would like to do something to change the look of
    my cabinets too, although I probably won't do anything for a couple
    of years (unless the price is right).  I saw something interesting
    in Sundeen Lumber, in Manchester, NH.  The sell replacement cabinet
    doors and drawer fronts to do this job yourself.  They are made
    of red oak and come unfinished.  The also sell an oak veneer that
    comes in rolls for covering the frame work of your cabinets.
    Interesting idea...
    I don't know the prices so I don't know how it would compare to
    having someone else do the work.
    BTW, many companies now offer this cabinet refacing service (even
    Sears has been advertising).

    A company called Kabinet Klad Kitchens  redid the cabinets
    in my house. They put on new door and drawer fronts and resurfaced
    the remainder of the cabinets.  Then removed some cabinets, added
    others, put down a new counter and a new sink.  They use
    formica that comes in varying designs.  Some of it looks
    like formica and others look like wood.  THey did a very
    good job and it looks good.  I will look it up but my
    recollection is around $4000.  The work took a week todo
    once they had the door and drawer fronts, but I don't remember
    how long it took them to make those.
    
    Sue
    

    
    	Back in the beginning HAAS cabinets were mentioned. Can anyone
    tell me where I can look at them. I live in the Southern NH area.
    

    Well, this may be a bit late to be of use to the .0 author, but
    for what it's worth, I chose an alternative for my kitchen cab
    "soffits"... I put up a cedar-shingled "roof" over the cabinets,
    which extends from the ceiling-wall joint to a point about an
    inch past the top edge of the cabinets.   The roof was prefab'd
    in sections, using 2x2's and 1/2" plywood, lifted into place, 
    and screwed to the wall and the cabinet stiles from the rear.
    The shingles were applied after the frame/plywood structure was
    in-place, using staples (and in some cases, like the top course)
    hot-melt glue.   I had one inside corner, and one outside corner
    to deal with, but cedar shingles are easy to work, so it was no
    big deal.   I did the whole thing one weekend about 7 years ago,
    and it's still looking good.  p.s., *NO* you don't need to put
    Cuprinol on the shingles! :^)
    					Jim
    

                      
                         -< SO FAR SO GOOD >-
    
    We added some cabinets to our home and we went with Brammer
    from SL. We've had them for about a year and we have no
    complaints.
    
    Tony
           

    Well, I got my the last part of my order of Brammer cabinets from
    Sommerville Lumber on Saturday. And started to install it. . .
    
    The kitchen includes 19 cabinets, 27 doors (Brammers come with the
    cabinets and doors separate), 3 end panels, 3 fillers and some special
    drawer hardware, plus 3 counter tops, 2 ells and a 17" piece. Given
    that I don't have the room to play games with all this stuff, I
    had opened only those cartons which looked "roughed up", and everything
    seemed fine, famous last words.
    
    The second box I opened (one of the new deliveries) had a badly
    damaged cabinet, all three stiles (vertical frame) were split at
    the joints. Since, according to my work plan, this cabinet must
    go in first, I said a few choice words and called SL. The guy I
    spoke suggested that I make a complete inventory and call back,
    a good idea.
    
    To make a long story short, I found another damaged cabinet, 7
    unacceptable doors and a bad countertop.
    The counter had 2 instead of 3 rounded corners and was an inch too
    long, it seems that the SL guy made a mistake on the plan he sent
    to the counter top maker. On my copy of the plan and the invoice
    it was ok.
    
    The doors were a combination of interesting things:
    1) 2 doors were the wrong style (the label on the box was right,
    					the contents wrong)
    2) 1 door with a chipped corner (probably dropped)
    3) 1 door with the center rail 1/8" out of square.
    4) 3 doors with unacceptable grain/stain effects. I don't expect
       book matched grain in ready made cabinets, but racing stripes????
    
    I called SL and gave them my list and they were very polite.
    The manager of the dep't. called back twice, once to explain that
    they couldn't do anything until Monday (today), and once to get
    an additional number from the invoices that the first guy hadn't
    gotten. (Their IS systems must be a nightmare :^)
    
    I can accept the fact that things can go wrong, I am distressed
    (not to say POed) about the number of problems; we will see how
    much time and energy it takes to get them corrected.
    
    Alan

    	When I got my kitchen cabs delivered last year, I helped the
    delevery person take them off the truck.  I had two cabinets
    that a corner was smashed in and one door that was broken.
    I opened the questionable boxes in front of the delivery person
    and had no trouble getting replacements.  
    	Cab companies use generally use one frame for an entire
    product line.  The difference in price is all based on the 
    door selection.  In my case they were able to take the doors
    off a more expensive model so that I could use the frame to 
    start hanging.  While I was able to get the replacement frames
    the same day, it took two weeks to get a new door
    
    				=Ralph=
    

	re: .4
    	I only wish that the cabinets which were damaged were the ones
    in the questionable boxes.  While most all manufacturers use common
    cases, and just vary the doors, not all ship the two separately.
    Schrock and Merillat, to name two that I've installed before, both
    come with the doors hung.
    
    	I doubt that I could have kept the delivery guy around whilst
    I opened approx. 60 boxes to check the contents. Assuming I was
    there in the first place, which I wasn't. 
    
    	I'm glad you had no problems, I hope to be as lucky.
    
    Alan

    Well, here's the follow up.
    
    It took Sommerville Lumber 1 week to replace the cabinets and 5
    of the 7 doors which I refused to accept. The last two doors are
    back ordered, and they can't say for sure when they'll be in.
    
    As far as the cabinets and doors go I had virtually no hassles
    and a week isn't all that long.
    
    The counter top won't be delivered until a week from tomorrow,
    which is understandable since it is a special order. They tried
    a few feints and bobs before giving in and getting me a totally
    new counter (understandable since SL will have to eat the 
    $250) Most of the grief was from the salesman that wrote up the
    pattern for the mfg., and he was trying to cover his own a**,
    since it was his mistake.
    
    All in all I'll give SL a B- for their effort, I would have preffered
    that they grovel ;^)
    I do wonder, however, how a less knowlegable and firm customer
    would have fared.
    
    Alan

    
    	I am currently planning to remodel my kitchen from head to toe
    excluding refrig and dishwasher.  I have the floor plan and design
    of all cabinets completed.  I am now undertaking the unfortunate
    pain of shopping around for wood cabinets.  The two mid priced cabinets
    Iv'e been looking at are Adelphi and J-Wood.
    
    	Both are all wood cabinets that look well made and will last
    many years.  Has anyone heard good or bad things about either brand?
    I seem to be leaning toward the Adelphi, but the Adelphi has a very
    glossy finish compared to others that almost make it look "cheap".
    The salesman said that the high gloss finish will protect the cabinets
    longer and are a feature.  
    
    	After reading other topics regarding prices of cabinets, I feel
    the prices I am getting are a little high.  16 cabintes (various
    sizes and 22ft of beveled Formica counter top is about $6500 without
    installation.  Is this a lot?
    
    	Any DIYers out there have any other hints once I get going?
    I hope I have as much success in my project as I have read you others
    have enjoyed.  Thanks for any advice.
    
    Bob

    re .0
    
    Bob, 
    
    I can highly recommend J-Wood cabinets. We used them in our total
    kitchen rehab two years ago. We used Cathedral style Cherry with
    Classic Champagne stain ... a beautiful wood. The cabinets are solidly
    built, front frames are hardwood (cherry), doors are solid, drawers
    are well sanded and sealed plywood (7/16"), cabinet end are 1/2"
    veneered plywood with 1/4" veneer finish (cherry again). Drawer
    glides are nylon, side mounted ball-bearing with beautiful movement.
    Shelves are 3/4" 45 lb particle board (the only particle board in
    the whole system) but veneered with birch on top, bottom and front
    edge. Shelf height is adjustable via metal standards ; only moderately
    easy to adjust.
    
    I purchased the cabinets from Friend Building in Burlington (also
    in Lowell). Prices are what I would consider moderate for the quality
    (there was a 15% surcharge for cherry though). The J-Wood cabinet
    specifications & accessories brochure makes it relatively easy to
    pick and choose the right components for your design. We bought
    a total of 18 units (from base cabinets to wall cabinets , a built
    in desk center, an island, etc , etc) for a 13x13 floor plan.
    Cabinets came to about $5500, countertops another $650. These were
    our biggest single expense ; but from what I have seen, it could
    have been a lot more for other popular brands.
    
    From what I remember, delivery lead was long (6-8 weeks), so plan
    ahead if you choose to got with J-Wood. They're out of Pennsylvania.
    
    
    Friend has an excellent kitchen designer, Kathy Brickey. She won't
    oversell you, she just works with your floor plan and inital layout
    concepts and tells you what will work logically and what won't.
    We actually bought less cabinetry than we originally thought we'd
    need, and ended up with a better plan. She pays attention to details
    such as door swing interference between adjacent cabinets, stuff
    like that which if you forgot yourself to consider, you'd be fairly
    upset. Her help with planning is no additional charge (direct that
    is ... she gets a cut on the final take I assume). We found it to
    be a honest and important service.

            

         If you are going to do a gut job, are you removing the sheet
    rock? If so put a piece of 2x6 between each 2x4 at 84,,high
    centered this way when mount the upper cabinets you will always
    be puting your screws into somthing solid. I do this in all the
    kitchens I rebuild. It certinly saves time locating studs and 
    holds them up much stronger.
    
    
    
    
    
    Lou R

I've come to find there is no reasonable price for cabinets.  You can pay as
little as a couple K to as much an 10's of K!  I'll bet the cabinet job (sounds
obscene) they did on TOH was probably close to 20K.  

I'm still toying with the idea of making my own and springing for some expensive
tools.  However, that won't be at least until next winter so we'll just have to
wait and see if I run out of energy.

-mark

    You might take a look at Brammher (sp?) at somerville lumber.  We
    began toying with the idea of doing the kitchen over a while ago
    and these looked real good and seemed to be priced fairly reasonable.
    
    We talked to SL at Pelham NH.  Don't know about the other places.
    
    I put a note asking for any horror stories somewhere in this file
    and the responses were such that if I were ready to make the plunge
    I'd go with the oak Brahmmer cabs.

    
    re .2
    	I don't plan on taking down any sheetrock, since the walls are
    in excellent shape right now.  The cabinets will be joined so i
    shouldn't have any trouble picking up the studs as I hang.
    
    re .1
    	I really like the J-Wood and all the features that they seem
    to offer.  I sat down with both a J-Wood and Adelphi distributer
    with final plans and hope to get new estimates from both.  The kitchen
    was originally designed by a pro who did at no charge.  He came
    into the house, measured and layed most of it out right in front
    of me.  It gave us ideas we never even dreamed of.  Then when he
    came back with a 12K estimate for Dorwood (14K for Quaker Maid)
    we decided to shop elsewhere.  But now we had he basic ideas of
    what we wanted.  A few little changes from other cabinet places
    and we've got the design and measurements down cold.  Now its time
    to put the money where my design is.  I'll keep you posted.
    
    	Has anyone heard of a stove hood called Micro Mate?  It contains
    the light and fan for the hood, but on top you can slip in your
    own microwave.  You don't have to buy a combo hood/micro to put
    above the stove.
    
    Bob
    

    re .1 and .5
    
    Yesterday in my daily paper I got a circular from Friend Building.They
    are currently running a Washington Birthday sale until 2/21. J_Wood
    cabinets are now offered at 20% off mfg. list price. You may want
    to go there for a quote too.

    Uh oh, I think I'm in trouble.  Need some kitchen cabinets and have
    been using prices in the Sunday paper flyers etc as a ball park
    figure.  They tend to show a 10 piece (random mixture of upper/lower/etc)
    cabinet collection in the range $1800 - $2800 (exclusive of countertops
    or any other extras).  These are for Merillat and other average
    quality stuff. (10 pieces is a pretty small kitchen but
    I've been extrapolating from those prices).
    
    Is there some sleaze-not-truth-in-advertising going on here?
    

>    Is there some sleaze-not-truth-in-advertising going on here?
    
No.  It's just that you can't take the prices for Merilat and then go
out and expect to find the same prices on higher-quality cabinets.  If
you change to brands that are made of more expensive materials, or made
by lower-volume manufacturers, then the costs change. Our contractor
told us to estimate $30 a foot for Merilat cabinets, and the results
came out almost to the penny. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .5
    
    I installed the Micro Mate hood/microwave shelf when I remodeled
    my kitchen. I really like the unit and the installation instructions
    were very good. Mine is installed on an outside wall so it is vented
    directly outside. The Micro Mate is by Broan but I saw the exact
    unit in Sears with just a name change. It was on display in the
    retail store so you might want to check it out for size or price
    there.
    
    It has a good size blower and if mounted according to the instructions
    will support a large microwave. Ours is a 1.5 Cu Ft unit. Be
    warned that you will loose the cabinet directly above the shelf
    since the blower box takes up this space. I planned for a 12" high
    by 30" wide cabinet above the unit and only used the cabinet face
    frame and doors as a cover over the blower box.

    Nick

    Nick,
    
    	Thanks for your input.  I haven't found any info on it outside
    the pamphlet I have.  I do realize that I will lose the cabinet
    above, but i thought it was more like a 15" high cabinet.  I have
    an 8 foot ceiling with a proposed 1 foot sophet.  Is your cabinet
    12" or are the doors 12"?
    
    	If you don't mind me asking, could you give me a ball park figure
    on the micro mate or Sear's look alike?  I haven't a clue?
    
    Thanks
    
    Bob
    

    My kitchen currently has sturdy, but ugly cabinets.  The are made
    of particleboard (1/2" thick) and are covered in a dark woodgrain
    vinyl/mica/whatever finish.  The kitchen is not small, but it looks
    dark and cheap because of the cabinets.  I want to upgrade the look,
    but replacing all the cabinets is way out of my price range.  So
    I have 2 options and I would like input on them both.
    
    OPTION 1:
    I can paint the cabinets.  What kind of paint and primer would be
    recommended for painting over a smooth vinyl-like surface?
    
    OPTION 2:
    I can replace the cabinet doors and drawer fronts and cover the
    rest with veneer.  Sundeen Lumber in Manchester, NH is currently
    running a sale on materials for this.  They sell solid oak cabinet
    doors and drawer fronts and stick-on oak veneer.  It is made
    specifially for this purpose and is made by Masonite.  I figure
    that I can completly re-do my cabinets for $500 (plus the cost of
    new hardware).  Replacing the doors and drawer fronts seems easy
    enough, but I am a little concerned with covering the cabinet frames
    with veneer.  The veneer is real oak and comes in strips (3" and
    4" I think) for around the doors and in 24"x36" sheets for the ends
    of the cabinets.  How easy is this to put on and trim?  Can I expect
    it to be pretty durable?  Has anyone ever used these materials?
    
    	Thanks for your input.
    	Willy

     If you go the painting route I recommend the following:
    
    		1. Lightly sand all surfaces to be painted with 100
    			grit paper.
    
    		2. One coat of enamel undercoater, tinted to be close
    			to the final color.
    
    		3. Lightly sand with 100 grit paper.
    
    		4. One coat of Semi-gloss enamel.
    
    I have not used veneer for kitchen cabinet frames, but it is the
    doors that take most of the abuse. The veneer treament sounds very
    doable.
    
    					Kenny

FYI...lengthy note for a lengthy job. 
    
    I had the same type of dark brown particle board cabinets in both
    my kitchen and bathroom/powder rooms.
    
    This is what I did.
    
    1 - took off the doors and hardware.
    2 - washed everything down with TSP and rinsed well
    3 - asked the wife not to fry anything until I was completely done (months!)
    
    4 - I hardly sanded since the TSP seemed to dull things enough
        anyway.
    5 - I used a good oil base primer and gave both doors and cabinets
        2-3 coats.
    6 - I also filled in all of the little holes on the edge of the
        doors caused by routing particle board.
    
    7 - The last thing I wanted was to have my cabinets look like they
        were painted, I wanted them to look like they were covered in
        melamine.  So, I bought very expensive paint - egg shell grey for 
        the bathrooms and egg shell almond for the kitchen.  Both were
        latex!  I don't like painting with oil when I know the job will
        take a long time (smell, fumes, etc.)  
    
        Most important of all, I used a small roller to give the
        melamine type finish.  Don't forget to sand in between
        coats.
    
    
    Both have been painted for over a year now and have stood up quite
    well - even withstanding my two year old's abuse.
    If you buy expensive paint, it'll be washable.
    
    All the nicks came within a week after finishing!  It seems like
    the paint required 1 week to cure after that nothing.
    I completed the kitchen with oak trimmings.
    
    The whole experience was worth it when my bro. in law, who nit picks
    on everything, came over and said "I thought you said you were going 
    to paint your cabinets".
    
    Hope this helps.    
    Good luck.
    jj 
    

    I was faced with the same decision but after putting up a vinyl
    wallpaper with a white background and a light colored vinyl flooring
    I found out the dark cabinets looked lovely.  You might just solve
    your problem by adding additional lighting or changing something
    else that is easier to change.
    
    -Bob

    Sorry for the delayed response. I think we paid around $210 for
    the unit.
    
    Plan on a separate 20 amp circuit for this unit since it powers
    the fan, built in light, and outlet for the microwave.
    
    Nick

    Nick,
    
    	Thanks for the input.  I have gotten a price of 293 from one
    dealer, but have yet to shop around further.  I'm also planning
    on taking a trip to Sears to see what they have.  It comes highly
    recommended.
    
    	As far as the 20amp goes, thats what I was planning on.  Even
    though it won't be on long or often, its got a big blower.  Might
    as well do it once while the wall is open.
    
    	Now all I need is the cabinets.  Plan on ordering Sat.
    
    Thanks Again.
    
    Bob
    

    Anyone have experiences with "Quaker-Maid" cabinets?

    These are custom cabinets, with veneered plywood all around except
    for the doors which are solid wood.

    About 10 years ago I had installed a number of these and the company
    I worked for had done approx. 50 kitchens with these - not one
    complaint on any of the jobs. They used to be rated the best for
    a pre-built cabinet. All dealers have a designer that will come
    out and layout a kitchen for you free of charge. The free design
    may have changed over the years due to many people taking the design
    and using it to install another line of cabinets. If you go with
    these be prepared to spend some big $$$$. On the whole these are
    a very well made cabinet with a lot of nice options to fit most
    everyones needs.

    I have not seen Quaker-Maid cabinets but the design sounds very
    much like that of Penny Pincher cabinets, which I used a while 
    ago and have been happy with.  Basically, the fronts are solid Oak,
    the sides are real oak veneer, and the shelving is plywood, not
    particle board or anything.  The design hides the ends of the plywood
    pieces so that you only see the solid wood surfaces.  The cabinets
    are "semi-custom" made; you order standard units in size increments
    of 1" or 3" depending on shape.  Penny Pincher has a few stores
    around; maybe you'd want to investigate them for comparison?
    
    
    
    

>        I have not seen Quaker-Maid cabinets but the design sounds very
>    much like that of Penny Pincher cabinets, which I used a while 
>    ago and have been happy with.  
    
    You're comparing Penny Pincher with some brand which is allegedly
    the best cabinet made?
    I have Penny Pincher cabinets too, and I like them, but I wouldn't
    go that far!
    

    Didn't mean to imply that they were the same, or as good - 
    from the description given, they had some similar characteristics

    - plywood veneer, but solid fronts
    - free design service 
    - ordered from factory
     
    What things make Quaker-Maids better?  Different joints, hardware,
    etc.?  The P.P. joints are definitely not as good as the dovetail
    corners etc. in handmade drawers...!  Is this what Quaker-Maid uses?
    
    I would think that cabinets custom made by a good carpenter
    from all solid wood would be "the best" and that factory made units
    would be in a different category? 

    re: .30, .31:
    
    Thanks for the info. about "Penny Pincher" cabinets.  And, thanks
    very much to the noter (I forget the #) that replied about Quaker-Maid!
    
    Quaker-Maid cabinets are custom cabinets, and are hand-made. If you
    need a base cabinet 20.5" wide with a bread drawer on top and 2 shelves
    on rollers underneath, they'll make it for you.
    
    The drawers are dovetailed.  They use a special joint at the cabinet
    corners that is supposed to be stronger than a conventional one.
    Cabinet shelves can be (if you order it this way!) adjustable via a
    metal strip with holes routed into the cabinet walls, and the shelves
    have pins on them that plug into the strips.  Choice of European,
    knife, or standard hinges.  All hardware (rollers, guides, etc) appear
    to my novice eyes to be very solid.  The drawer guides have a nice
    positive action: when the drawer slides in, there is a final curve
    in the roller so that it pulls itself completely shut.
    
    Their corner lazy-susan units have wood shelves that rotate
    independently.  They also have fancy blind-corners with two
    quarter-circle double shelves that rotate out on a hinge. 
    
    Funny thing about custom cabinets.  It is like being a kid in a candy
    shop: there are SO many choices.  My wife and I had to pull ourselves
    out of the store because we were starting to drool. 

    If u are interested, I can post the address of the Worcester store
    where I saw these cabinets.    
    
    jdr

What to do with two lazy susan cabinets?
========================================

I have a real space problem in the kitchen. Part of the problem
is that the previous owner had two lazy susans put in the
corners.  With the exception of the sink and two very small
cabinets, one draw each, that is the total available floor
cabinets.  My problem is two lazy susans are useless.  Anyone
have any nifty tricks to better utilizing a lazy susan cabinet. 
Presently, lacking a better place, my wife has but things like
electric frypan, blender, bins for onions and potatoes, piles of
dish rags, etc in the lazy susans.  These items obviously are
meant for a squared off storage space and do not work well in
this type of cabinet.  Also with only one normal size draw for
silver ware and one very narrow draw for other cooking utensils
we really need some draw type space.  Anyone have suggests.  I 
would appreciate any help from simple organizing partition ideas
mounted within the lazy susan cabinets to drastic layout changes.
See attached picture:


+----------+----------+----+----------+
| lazy     |  stove   |cab.|  lazy    |
| susan    |          |    |  susan   |
|      +---+----------+----+---+      |
|      |                       |      |
+------+                       +------+
|      |                       | cab. |
|      |                       |      |
| sink |                       +------+
|      |                       +------+
|      |                       | frig |
|      |                       |      |
+------+		       +------+

Floor cabinet layout (window centered under sink)


The kitchen is situated in such a way that I can't really see
how to expand it. (see picture)  Note that I need the eat-in
table since there is no formal dining room.

     		+------------------+------------------+
     		|                  |                  |
     		|   +----------+   |                  |
     		|   |          |   |                  |
     		|   |          |   |                  |
     		|   | Kitchen  |   |                  |
     		|   |          |   |                  |
     		+---+          +---+	Living Room   | 
     		X                                     |
     Slider	X                                     |
     to deck	X   +---------+                       |
     		|   |  table  |                       |
     		|   +---------+                       |
     		+-------------+    +------+----+      |
      		|  stairway   |    | cl   | cl |       front door


Thanks for any suggestions you can make.
-JFK-

    John,
    
    We have a lazy susan in one corner of our kitchen cabinets too.
    We use it for all canned goods and small boxes of food.
    
    Since our home has little cabinet space, my husband built shelves
    in the dining room closet (maybe you could use one of your 2 closets
    illustrated).  We store large pots, a wok, and some of the crystal
    bowls we received for wedding gifts.  There is still plenty of
    room in the closet for the ironing board, TV trays, etc.
    
    Robin

    RE: lazy susan's
    
    I'm surprised that you find the LS's inconvenient.  Most people
    would add to their kitchen instead of subtracting.  Our first house
    included 2 (1 upper/ 1 lower).  The upper does not utilize the space
    as well as the lower because it's just a rotating carousel inside
    the cupboard.  The lower one completely turns and does make it easier
    to reach things.  Can you envision trying to reach something in
    the back corner of a regular cabinet?
    
    I guess I'd agree with the suggestion to try and construct a small
    "pantry" cubboard somewhere.  
    
    	Ted

    This weekend my wife and I finally visited a Penny Pincher store.
    
    There's no comparison between Quaker Maid and Penny Pincher: Quaker
    Maid cabinets are of *much* higher quality.  If anyone out there is
    interested, visit "Creative Cabinets" on East Central Street in
    Worcester. 

    Of course, they also cost more.  But for our set of values, they
    are worth it.

        
    jdr

    Does anyone have any information on cabinets by Homecrest or
    LesCare? We are considering both of them for our remodeled
    kitchen.

    In the 18 months that have passed since the previous reply, has
    anyone else had this cabinet resurfacing done?  If so, what
    are the going prices these days for a given number of cabinets?
    
    Roger

    Well, after owning my first house for 1 year, I have decided that the 
    kitchen has got to go. So I started pricing kitchen cabinets from
    showrooms in the Worcester and Leominster/Fitchburg area. After a
    decent search (went to 7 places), I narrowed my search to two places
    both in Fitchburg.
    One is called Heritage Cabinets on Cleghorn street. It is actually the
    factory in which they have a small showroom. The cabinets are all wood
    except for the shelves which are particle board. Over all, they seemed
    like good construction and, since I'm buying from the factory, they 
    fit in my budget.
    The other place is called Badag's Kitchen and Bath on Jackson Ave.
    They carry a line of cabinets called Plain and Fancy by Carriage House
    (I think that's the maker).
    
    Has anyone heard anything about them?
    Also, do you know of any good kitchen places in the
    Worcester-Leominster area? I'm looking for custom cabinets with wood
    construction. I also don't want to spend my life savings on the
    cabinets. 


    By the way, I've gone to Wood-mode distributors and found out that they
    are about $1500 over my budget. I also tried Creative Kitchens in
    Worcester (they carry Quaker Maid) but found the owner so unpleasant
    to work with that I walked out. Maybe he felt that because I was a 
    woman, that I wasn't serious about kitchen designs. Well, the last laughs
    on him because I would have considered Quaker Maid - but not with him.

    I've looked at Penny Pinchers but felt that my budget could carry a better
    made cabinet, something that will still look new after 6 years.
  
    				Cindy
    

    Re: .38
    
    I built in Southbridge 2 .5 years ago and used Penny Pincher cabinets
    due to a LOW allowance from the builder. They are all wood and were
    very easy to install and were all true to size. With 3 kids, they've
    taken a beating (drawers used a ladders) and still look fine. I
    wouldn't write them off due to a quote lower than your allotted budget.

    Has anyone ever heard of Tri-Pac cabinets. The outfit is from Texas.
    The cabinets are available locally. I am considoring them for our
    soon to be new kitchen.
    
    
    
       thanx bob

    Can kitchen cabinets be bought direct from distributor (or low margin
    middleman)? I've done this for quality furniture thru the "outlets"
    in High Point S.C.
    
    I'd be thankful for anyone that could send me (gucci::herb) addresses
    of manufacturers (or agents) willing to sell directly to the public.
    I'm looking for high quality solid (dove tailed) cabinets. I plan
    to separately contract the remodeling and installation.
    
    Thanks..Al
    
    PS..I am located in Maryland between Washington and Baltimore

As I get closer to starting building my cabinets I'm faced with the decision
to go with standard interiors or use some of the new fangled gadgets such as
baskets, shelves, etc.  The Woodworker's Store (in Cambridge) sells some of
this stuff but I was wondering if anybody knows of any other suppliers.  In
particular, I was looking for a pull-out spice rack that would be the height
of the entire base cabinet rather than the 18" unit the Woodworker's Store 
sells.

-mark

    
    I put two Keije trolley units under our single sink base, they are
    of excellent quality and really work well. We got them at lechemere
    during a 25% off sale. However, our cabinets are Euro style, so
    they look good in that environment. I don't know how good they'd
    look inside of a beautiful cherry cabinet, though.
    
    CdH
    

    This is kind of off the subject but falls under the heading
    "How to build the Best kitchen cabinets"
    
    Paint the inside of the cabinets white.  This will reflect the room
    light and make the cabinets brighter.  This will make it easier
    to find things.  My mother-in-law-to-be claims that bugs like dark spaces
    and if the inside of her cabinets are white, then they are not dark
    and therefore she has less/no bug problems in her cabinets.  Her
    cabinets are actually Formica inside and the white does make a big
    difference from what I can tell.

    
    Re: .-1
    
    >                 My mother-in-law-to-be claims that bugs like dark spaces
    >and if the inside of her cabinets are white, then they are not dark
    
    	Does she close the cabinet doors?  If so, the inside will be dark
    regardless of the color of the paint.  Unless, of course, she has a
    little light inside the cabinets to keep the white paint illuminated...
    ;-)
    
    							-craig

    
    RE: .2
    
    Your mother-in-law better not move to Florida.  There is 
    new breed of cockroaches in Florida that is *attracted*
    to light.  (Really, I'm not kidding!)
    
    
    

    She lives in Lakeland Flordia and has for about 5 years!  She is
    a very clean housekeeper and I imagine that has a larger effect
    on the lack of insects than the white interior.
    
    I personally don't but much faith in the white reducing the insect
    population but I do find the cabinets much easier to find things
    in.
 

re .41:

I can't help you in your area, but there's a Penny Pincher factory and
outlet store on Rte 9 in Shrewsbury, MA.  Incidentally, their shelves
are not particle board -- they are a plywood that is apparently made
with no filler -- the rounded off edge looks like a layer cake --
a pretty effect, I thought.

	Larry

    
    I am looking for Euro-style cabinets, all laminate, no wood. There
    are some at Somerville lumber but I would like to do some comparison
    shopping, they seem to be a bit pricy. My preference is for white,
    black or a combination of black and white. 

    I'm not lucky enough to have solid cabinets but the frame and face
    construction is strong.  I was thinking of refinishing until I 
    found that the doors are raised panel plywood.  ECH!!
    My wife would like to have oak cabs so I priced new solid oak
    doors and 1/4" oak plywood.  Price on doors is @$30 for 27"X13"
    doors each and $27 for the plywood.  I was thinking of using the
    wood veneer tape for the face frames as the frame appears to be
    glued on.
    
    Also, I went to the Keene N.H. home show last week and saw some
    European style cabinet hinges that allowed you to remove the doors
    for cleaning.  
    Has anyone taken on a project such as this or am I crazy for trying?
    I have most of the tools I will need but would like to locate a
    source for 1/8" or 1/16" veneer sheets without the plywood and any
    help that I can get on this project.
    
    Thanks,
    Mark   

    I recently refinished my Kitchen cabinets in the manner you have
    discribed.  I ordered Various sizes of solid  5/8" raised panel
    oak doors from a local cabinet manufacturer. I think there were about
    28 doors and 8 draw fronts, they were nicely finished in my choice of
    stain. The bonus of ordering the doors from a manufacturer was that
    I was able to get 96"X25" veneer pannels finished in with the same
    stain and laquer finnish, I also got a gallon of stain from them.
    The entire package cost about $1100.00 (Canadian).
                                                    
    My orginal cabinets had cheep veneer doors, but the rails and stiles
    were oak, but they were too dark to try and refinnish. I coated
    the veneer,rails and stiles with laytex contact cement. Once dry
    I had a few hours to cut the veneer with a sharp knife and a good
    straight edge. Once the rails,stiles and side pannels were installed
    I sanded the rough edges and touched them up with stain. and installed
    the Doors.                                      
                                                    
    Since my rails and stiles were made of oak, I only needed to veneer
    the fronts, I sanded the sides of each and simply stained them correct
    colour. If yours are plywood, you will need to veneer all the sides
    but the veneer is thick enough that you can sand the corners into
    a smooth looking finnish.                                     
                                                                  
    The overall job cost under $1,200.00 and it looks great.      
                                                                  
                                                                  
    Good luck                                                     
                                                                  
    Peter                                                         
    Toronto, Canada                                               
                                                                  
                                                                  

    We were looking at Merillat for our new kitchen from Hamshaw Lumber
    in Keen N.H.  Before we closed the deal we checked out Medallion
    at Belletates (sp?) also in Keen.  We showed them the same list of
    prices that we had received for Merillat and he bettered the base
    prices on the Medallion cabinets and took off another 50%.  He also
    showed us that the Merillat cabs have veneer doors where as the
    Medallion doors are solid hardwood.  We have not closed the deal
    yet and would like to know is anyone as had any problems with
    Medallion cabinets.
    
    Thanks,
    Mark

    I hope I'm not too late.  I was going to reface my cabinets as
    described in this note and it was going to cost me about $800 for
    the materials in oak.  After attending the Keen N.H. home show I
    discovered that there are numerous small hardware and lumber stores
    that are just starting to sell cabinets and there is a lot of 
    competition in the start-up process.  Two of the stores quoted 50%
    off and another put in writing that he would beat any price in the
    area.  
    
    To make a long story short, I am getting new solid oak doored cabinets
    to replace my existing cabinets and three additional cabs for my
    new island for $1700.  I decided to spend the extra $900 for new
    cabinets Vs having glued on fronts and having to do the work myself.
    
    Mark

    
    I bought all our kitchen cabs during a bi-yearly 45% off sale at Moore
    Lumber. We just ordered a new vanity, and they gave us the 45% off even
    though there wasn't a sale, just because we're good customers.
    
    Seek and ye shall find...
    
    CdH
    

    In response to .5,  Hamshaw Lumber in Keen offered 50% off on Merillat
    cabinets, Beletates(sp?) also in Keen had better cabinets, Medallian,
    with lower base prices and took 50% off.  This will be effective
    thru June 5th.  We selected this cab as the gentleman in charge
    was polite, acted interested in my business and came to my house
    to measure and make sure I receive the correct cabs.  Grossmans
    in Keen claims in writing that they would beat any price in the 
    area but did carry the brand that we wanted.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Mark

re: .5, .7

45% or 50% off what?  If you're referring to the list price, keep in mind when 
shopping for cabinets that the "list price" for mass merchandised kitchen  
cabinets such as Merillat is as meaningful as the "list price" for cameras or 
home electronics, or the "sticker price" on an American car.  Which is to say 
that they are not meaningful at all.  If you shop for your cabinets, you'll 
find out that just about everybody gives 40 -- 50% discounts off the "list 
price".  

Of course that doesn't mean that you are getting them *cheap*.  It just means 
that the "list price" is outrageous.

Clay

    If all of the stores in the area have the same list price for the
    same make of cabinets and they do because I have a copy of it, the
    challange then is to find which store will take the most off of
    the list price or buy a different brand or make.  I compared refacing
    to building new, except for the raised panel doors, to buying new
    and found that the materials less having the doors built and building
    the cabinets myself was about $130.00 per cabinet average.
    
    I purchased 9 cabinets and 2 drawer sets and a valance (sp?) for
    $1700.00.  For just the cabinets and drawer sets this averages about
    $150.00 per piece less the valance.  It felt like a good deal.
    
    Mark,

Now that I'm nearly done with my base cabinets for the island, I'm not sure I
know how to best install them!  

One thought is to set them in place and drive a nail through the subfloor into
the cellar ceiling.  By locating the nail I'll then know where the solid wood
is and will be able to screw them down.  Since the sides are 3/4" plywood
there's plenty of room.  However, typical store-bought cabinets have 1/4" sides
and therefore this obviously wouldn't work.

Another thought is to simply nail some pieces of 2X4's to the floor such that
the cabinets will fit over them and lock things in place, preventing side to
side movement.  The weight of the island would keep it from lifting.  Some how
this doesn't feel right.

How do the pros do it?

-mark

    Hi Mark,
    
    	I have heard of all three methods used. Sometimes just put and place
    and let gravity hold them. Others screw/nail directly to floor. Others
    nail 2x4's to the floor.
    
    	The guy who did our kitchen recommended the latter. Since the floor
    wasn't down yet, he didn't fasten the island. I nailed 2x4's to the
    floor and then used 2-3 drywall screws high up on the kickplate
    to fasten the cabinets to the 2x4's. Unless you get down on the
    floor you can't see the screw heads.
    
    						Mark
    

Mark,

Ditto on the last.  That's how ours were done (roughly 1' 2x4 scraps
strategically located) and they're rock-solid.

Pete

	We're still unsure of exactly where we want our island to go so
	we're letting gravity hold it until we're positive.  Our island
	consists of a B18-SB36-DB18 and it's pretty heavy, ie, you just
	CAN'T move it by accident.
	
	Scott.

    One thing you should be careful of is that low/medium price cabinets
    usually use pretty flimsy materials for the backs and kickplates
    (like 1/8" hardboard or 1/8" particle board).  Unfortunately with
    island mounting this is all you get to screw through.  If your cabinets
    are not super heavy, sufficient pressure on one side or another
    can easily tear screws out of the material.  You need a lot of them
    or need to find a way to fasten to the cabinet framing if your island
    has any chance of getting any sideways force on it.

I'm not sure how heavy my island will be but I've already used 10 sheets of 3/4"
plywood and over 100 board feet of cherry and I haven't even made the doors,
drawers or shelves yet.  Screwing through the kickplate sounds reasonable but
mine are solid cherry and even though nobody would really see the screws it
would be too traumatic.  On the other hand, if I put down scrap 2X4's as
suggested, I should be able to put in a few screws (or even nails) within 3/4"
of the bottom and be assured the hardwood floor will hide them.  Sounds like
perhaps the best of all worlds. 

-mark

    I hope there are people still reading this note..............
    
    I've read through all of the cabinet building notes in both HOME_WORK
    and WOODWORKING.  For building the face-frame most responses suggested
    either mortise-tennon joints or doweled butt joints.  Any reason
    for not using lap joints for joining the rails ans stiles, especially
    if I intend on covering the frame and side panels with laminate
    (Euro-Style).
    
    For Euro-Style, should I "sandwich" the face frame between side
    panels (glue & screw from side panels into face frame) or should
    the face frame be fastened to the edges of the side panels?
    
    When laminating the face frame, I imagine that the best method is
    to use one peice to cover the entire face frame and then route out
    the openings........EXPENSIVE waste of Formica; are there any cost
    effective (but aesthetically acceptable) alternatives.        
    
    I want to use hidden finger pulls for the doors and drawers (routed
    from back side).  What kind of router bit do I need for this, do
    they have a "name" (like 1/4 round "finger pull" ????)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonathan

If you're going to laminate the cabinets it doesn't much matter the type of
joinery you use other than for strength. If you screw the faceframe on, make
sure you countersink the heads so the laminate doesn't bulge/crack.

Another question I would think is whether you laminate the inside edges of 
the door openings or not. If you do you could even use plywood for the 
faceframe.

>Another question I would think is whether you laminate the inside edges of 
>the door openings or not. If you do you could even use plywood for the 
>faceframe.

I have Euro-Style Cabinets in my current house (Yech!).  They are not
laminated on the inside edges.  You can still use plywood, however, and
put a veneer strip on those edges, if that makes sense to do.

Also, when you countersink your screw heads, I would advise some form of 
filler, before you laminate, otherwise you may end up with a visable
depression after a few years.

Good luck!

Bob

    Mark,
    
    Hi,  I've seen your name all through these notes.  It seems that 
    you are building or have built about everything that I need information
    on.  I was curous.  Does your, or anyone reading this file, island have
    a downdraft vent going through the floor?  If so, how did you connect
    it?  What size and type ducting did you use and do you have any other
    details?  
    Mark,

I have a Jenn-Air in my island and it vents using 6" single wall stove pipe 
through the floor, between the joists, out the side of the house. The stove 
came with directions and the adapter to the stove pipe

      I too have a Jenn-Air that vents using 6" round metal duct through
      the floor, under  the  joists,  back  up  to  clear  the  concrete
      foundation,  and out the side of the house.  It isn't "stove pipe"
      (I bought it at a  heating  supply  house)  but  it  is  virtually
      identical.

      Its  actually in a peninsula, not an island, but thats besides the
      point for this discussion.  I followed the  directions  that  came
      with  the stove.  Pay attention to the maximum length permitted by
      the directions, and remember that each 90degree  angle  (ours  has
      three) counts as severl feet of straight duct.  (See directions.)

      I  installed this and the hardest part was cutting the hole in the
      outside wall.

    RE .5:  If you hide the screws with the flooring, you will have
    a real tough time removing the cabinets should that ever become
    necessary.  Why not recess the heads of the screws and plug over
    them with cherry plugs, ala boat style?  That way the heads would
    barely be visible, but could be accessed (by removing the plugs,
    if you had to.  You could use varnish to hold the plugs.  It isn't
    as strong as glue, but it is easier to remove the plugs.  Also,
    don't set the plugs down on top of the screws all the way.  Then
    if you need to remove them, you can drill in the center, cave
    them in and pick out the pieces so that you don't splinter the rest
    of the wood surrounding the hole.

>         If you are going to do a gut job, are you removing the sheet
>    rock? If so put a piece of 2x6 between each 2x4 at 84,,high
>    centered this way when mount the upper cabinets you will always
>    be puting your screws into somthing solid. I do this in all the
>    kitchens I rebuild. It certinly saves time locating studs and 
>    holds them up much stronger.

      
        Or, if you're gutting to the studs, (like I will be soon)
     put up plywood in the area where the cabinets will be mounted,
     and sheetrock in the area in between the upper and lower cabinets.
     This way, you just mount the cabinets, without worrying about where the
     studs, or anything else is.

       You should use the same thickness (1/2 inch)
     for both the plywood and sheetrock on the same wall.    


     Steve

Hello,

My wife and I are considering refinishing our existing kitchen cabinets. 
Right now they consist of pine frames and fairly thin (about 3/8") knotty pine
doors. They have been finished with what seems to be some sort of varnish,
which is beginning to peel and bubble in places, especially around the door
pulls.

We've looked at custom cabinets at places like Grossmans, and both of us seem
to like the plastic laminate covered doors with the grooved oak strip along
the bottom which acts as a door pull.

Recently we received an advertisement in the mail from Sears about their
kitchen cabinet refinishing services.  One of the pictures shows the laminate
type cabinets we described above.

Has anyone had any experience with Sears' cabinet refinishing?  I'm wondering
if it would make more sense to buy the materials and do it ourselves.  I
already have laminate trimming bits for my router, and am pretty sure that I
could make the doors myself.  What I'm not sure of is what they would do with
the frame faces, which are now visible, and wouldn't match the new doors at
all.

Anyone's experiences with Sears or suggestions are appreciated...

Thanks.

(Cross-posted to WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS)

    They remove the existing doors from the cabinets.  They then sand the
    existing finish to provide a good base for the glue.  What glue? The
    glue used to stick veneer to the faces of your cabinets.  The veneer
    would in theory match whatever wood trim is on the doors or the doors
    are made of.
    
    Here in Atlanta, Home Depot carries replacement doors and the veneer
    which has an adhesive back already on it.  The veneer can be ordered
    stained and finished to match your new doors or unfinished wood.  The
    veneer comes in sheets 8ft. long and 2 ft. wide and costs about
    $100 a sheet last time I checked (a year ago).
    
    I have measured my kitchen and figured out the size of doors and
    drawers, and the numbers of sheets of veneer needed.  I figured out the
    cost and it is only about $500-$700 to redo our kitchen depending on
    which style doors we choose.  All new cabinets would run about $2500.
    
    Haven't done it yet because of all the other renovation taking place
    in the house but the wife is forcing the issue and I fear it will
    soon bubble up to the top of the list.  If you do go this route,
    please post your story so all can benefit from your lesson. 

    Also see notes 211 and 790.  These notes describe how to build your
    own cabinets and doors, both wood and plastic laminate.  If you
    have tips about building cabinets or rebuilding, please post your
    suggestions in these notes.  
    
    Let's restrict this note to a discussion about Sears refinishing
    process and it quality/cost effectiveness.
    
    Bruce [Moderator]

    
    To fairly compare the costs of refinishing vs. new, you have to
    consider the quality of the existing cabinets. If the cabinets you have
    are of the face frame, thin pine variety, then you're just buying a
    pretty face on a low quality cabinet. Maybe that's all you want. But
    the end result will have nothing to compare with those $2500 cabinets.
    
    CdH
    

    I always seem to be comparing prices! I haven't specifically looked
    at the Sears prices for cabinets, but did look into siding, decks,
    fencing, and windows. It seems to me that Sears charges *a lot* for
    major items that are advertised separately. For example, their decks
    are about 6X what I ended up paying for mine. Their windows were so
    expensive I didn't spend more than a few minutes looking at them!
    
    I did notice, however, that the ad for kitchen cabinets mentioned
    something about 'wood-tone' or 'laminate.' Whatever the wording was,
    it made me snicker that they weren't talking about wood veneer.
    
    It would probably be much cheaper to buy ready-made doors and do the
    laminate work yourself. If you don't feel comfortable doing that kind
    of work, you could consider just painting the cabinets with a few
    coats of enamel and putting on new hardware.  If you really insist
    on new cabinets, you might shop around for a carpenter to custom make
    them - may even be cheaper than Sears.

    
    Has anyone had experience 'Painting' cabinets ??
    Good experience?  Bad experience?
    
    The cabinets are 30 years old, solid wood, stained,
    and in excellent shape (but UGLY).   We'd really like to re-finish
    them with new doors and cover the rest, but can't afford
    it right now..
    
    Before we tackle it, I thought I'd ask for opinions........
    Because once we've done it, we're stuck with it.
    I've read all notes pertaining to 're-finishing cabinets'.
    
    
    Any experiences or opinions are welcome....
    
    Thanks
    Joanne                          

    re.8 We painted our kitchen cabinets a year ago figuring the solid
    color would look better than the blistered and worn veneer. It looked
    nice but our satisfaction with the painted cabinets lasted less than a 
    year. I am now in the midst of installing new kitchen cabinets. 
    
    Another consideration is do you really like your current layout and
    storage arrangements? We didn't and are changing the layout and
    some cabinet types. 
    
    In retrospect preping and painting the cabinets was a waste of time.
    
    	DAve CArlson

    My wife and I just spray painted our kitchen cabinets and they look
    much better.  This is just a stopgap until we really remodel the
    kitchen, but we painted the walls and ceiling, sanded down the cutting
    boards to fresh wood, washed down all the cabinets and spray painted
    them (using cans) and the whole thing looks new.  The spray paint was
    fabulous on the metal cabinets and quite acceptable on the wood.

    Before you try painting... (or maybe even in parallel)
    
    Why not strip one of the doors (with -say- 5f5 (or f5f)) and apply a
    stain the color you would like. Then polyurethane/varnish/whatever it.
    Strip another door and paint it.
    Let them hang side by side for a while and decide which you like
    better! Weigh that against the relative 'challenge' of refinishing vs
    painting.
    
    
    					herb

    
    Has anyone had any experience with bleaching wood?  Would appreciate
    help on this.  Have read the notes on refinishing and laminating
    kitchen cabs, but our problem is only that our cabs are too dark for 
    our liking and don't match the rest of the redecorated kitchen 
    (too late - already done).
    
    Our cabs are solid pine (no knots) and are in good condition except for
    some doors that don't close entirely becuz of some warping.  They are
    basically still sound and can last another 10 yrs (they are 25 yrs old
    - the age of the house).  After replacing the countertop, the vinyl
    flooring, and the wall paper in pastels, we realize that the cabs look 
    kind of shabby.  They are the color of dark honey, and the finish is 
    partially peeling and "aligatoring."  What we want is to strip , bleach 
    the existing stain, and refinish them into a light oak color.
     
    I recall that the Globe's Home section had a full-page article just
    on this procedure a couple of yrs ago, but have lost the article. 
    Also, we have NEVER done any stripping before and have no experience
    with wood.  I guess our other option - certainly less work and less 
    expensive - is paint, but the husband is whining about how he really
    likes stain better.  We've read about laminating the cabs, but it 
    sounds way beyond our ability.  Replacing the doors is something we see 
    in ads often now, but we really wonder how the new doors could possibly 
    give any exact match to the rest of the cabs??  Oh yeah, we can't 
    afford replacing all the cabs now.
    
    Thanks in advance for any help!
    
    -Stella                       

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
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Paul [Moderator]

    RE .8:  We're in the same boat on our cabs which are also solid wood,
    about 25 yrs old, dark stained, and finished.  We'd really like to
    lighten them by doing what is described in notes #884.4 & #580.2, but
    the bleaching processes described sounded VERY difficult and messy, 
    esp. for novices like us.
    
    So we're also thinking of painting them a light color, maybe off-white. 
    What we really like to know is: do we have to strip the old finish off
    before priming and painting the cabs?  Is it Ok to just lightly sand
    the old surface with a finishing sander (which we have) and then apply
    primer, then paint?  The doors have raised paneling which makes it
    harder to sand, but that still sounds like less work/mess than
    stripping.
    
    Any input is appreciated.  Thanks!
    
    -Stella  

    
    RE: .12
    
    Unless your cabinets are really cheap, I wouldn't paint them if
    I were you.  I've seen it done before and I've never liked it.
    If it ends up looking like a homemade job it will effect the
    resale value of your house.  I have dark pine cabinets in my
    house that aren't particularly classy or well-made, but you'd be
    amazed at how often people compliment them. If you don't want to
    go to the process of refinishing them, you might want to see how
    much it would cost to have it done.  If your kitchen is too
    dark, you might want to investigate various lighting options
    (track lighting, over the counter, etc.).
    

    
    Thanks for the advice, altho I still don't know whether the finish has
    to be stripped before painting or not.
    
    One very dumb question:  How can I tell if my cabs are solid wood or
    veneer?  I examined them closely and saw what appears to be a thin 
    layer at the edges and seams on the front face frames, but my husband
    says he thinks they are solid wood.
    
    Any sure way to tell?
    
    Thanks for answering the dumb question.
    
    -Stella

    I'm about  to  install  2  3' kitchen cabinets, and am looking for
    advice  on  exactly  how  to do the installation. The cabinets are
    next  to  each  other,  against  a wall that is 1' longer than the
    cabinets.

    Questions: Where  do  the  cabinets  attach? I was thinking that I
    would  screw  the  frames  together  at the front of the cabinets,
    screwing through the frames (Hiding the scres under the hinges). I
    wasn't  planning  on  attaching  the cabinets to each other at the
    back, as the frames won't touch there, and if I screw them both to
    the  wall,  they  won't  move  much.  Should  I use wood screws or
    drywall  screws?  (I  need  long  screws, that aren't too large in
    diameter,  as  the frames are 2" wide, and reaching the studs will
    also require a long screw.)

    What order  should I do this in? I would guess that I first attach
    one  to the wall, then attach the second cabinet to the first, and
    then  attach  the  second  to the wall (shimming to get them level
    before I drill any screw holes).

    I assume  that  the  counter  top is attached with a screw through
    each  of  the  corner gussets, and that will provide a fair bit of
    stiffness.  Am I missing anything?

--David

    There may not be 1 specific note (other than this one) but there are a
    few tidbits scattered thru many of the other cabinet notes.  Two of
    them are:
    
    Screw a 2x4 horizontally on the wall that the wall cabinets are to be
    installed on.  Screw the faces of the wall cabinets together, lift as a
    unit and rest on the 2x4.  Shim and screw the cabinets to the wall.
    Remove the 2x4.  The 2x4 provides something to rest the cabinets on
    that you have already leveled so the cabinets will be level.
    
    If during the kitchen renovation you remove the sheetrock, install
    "nailers" between the vertical studs.  These nailers are 2x4 run
    horizontally between the studs at a specific height.  They provide a
    fire stop in the wall (added bonus) and will also provide a screw
    surface for every cabinet regardless of width.  i.e, If you have a
    15 inch cabinet, it is possible it would not have a stud behind it and
    nothing to screw it to.  If you install two rows, say 5 inchs below the
    top of the finished cabinet height and 5 inches above finished bottom,
    then you have eliminated the hunt for the stud.
    

    When screwing the cabinets together, first clamp the face frames
    together (using protective blocks so you don't mar the frames).  Then
    drill pilot holes and then screw them.  This will allow you to get the
    face frames even with each other.
    
    Long drywall screws should be fine, although long woodscrews would be
    stronger.  My old cabinets were held up with finish nails(!), and they
    didn't come down very easily.
    
    Use some wax on the screws, and they will go in a lot easier.
    
    Bob

    I can't beleive we haven't beaten this topic to death somewhere... 8^)

    First, get yourself the book by Jerry Cary, "Building and installing 
Kitchen Cabinets" from Taunton Press. He goes into a lot of detail about 
building the cabinets, but then also gets into fitting them perfectly, 
leveling them, etc......All kinds of good advice there and worth every 
penny.

    Second, I would not go with drywall screws, then tend to snap, 
particularly with longer lengths. They are not intended to support shear 
loads the way regular steel screws are. I would suspect you can find 3"+ 
screws that are phillips head so that you can drive them with a power bit 
easily, or use the square drive screws (Robertson). I think they come in 
long enough lengths. Get them at Woodworkers warehouses (Trendlines) or 
similar places.

    Third, if you don't use a 2x4 on the wall to level and hold your 
cabinets up while you install them, use a box just a bit shorter than you 
need and use shingles to slide it up to the right height and level it to 
hold your cabinets up.

    Lastly, "level twice, fasten once" to paraphrase an old saying...

    Vic H

    It's also surprisingly fast to install cabinets one at a time, with out 
    a 2x4 guide, if you have a willing helper to hold them up.  Don't
    forget:  level ALL sides of the cabinets;  i'ts easier with the doors
    off;  start at the middle when doing an entire wall so you dont
    propagate errors.

   As far as the counter top goes. As i rememeber with my installation, if the
counter top in the front has a drip edge( a little rounded) you have to build
up the counter because you wont be able to open the top draws. What we used 
was (1/2 or 3/4 ) plywood strips all around the perimeter of the cabinets. We
screwed them into the top edge around the cabinets then put glue on top of 
that. Rested the counter top down on the glue then screwed the counter down
into the glue from underneath.

   """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" < --- counter top
   ####################################### < --- glue
   ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: < --- 1/2 plywood ,screw into cabinet
   ---------------------------------------
   |                             ^ <---- | ----- screw up into, pulls counter 
   | ---------------     --------^-----  |       down into glue
   | |             |     |       ^     | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |           o |     | o           | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | |             |     |             | |
   | ---------------     --------------  |
   |                                     |
   ---------------------------------------

    When securing the cabinet faces together, remove the hinges and
    hide the screws behind them. It makes the installation a little
    neater.
    
    I used strapping instead of 2x4's to place the cabinets on prior
    to securing to the wall. The chances of finding straight strapping
    are the same as a straight 2x4. Strapping is a little easier to work
    with.
    
    ~jeff 

    
    Re .6:
    
    Umm, Doesn't that get you into the position of not being able to remove
    the counter top after the glue has dried??
    
    I think I would attach the filler strips to the bottom of the counter
    first (glue and small screws), then screw on the entire assembly from
    the cabinet side.
    
    If you get a custom-built top, the filler should already be there, at
    least on the front and sides to support the edging. You may have to add
    strips where the counter will sit on the back of the cabinets, or in
    case of excessive overhang on the sides.
    

    .3 suggests pilot holes for screwing the stiles together.  This is
    super important to do right.  Newer cabinets have pretty thin stiles
    (as the nominal 1" seems to down to about an actual 5/8" in some
    cases!)
    
    Hardwood will split (or worse, won't split but will grab the screw so
    hard the screwdriver will twist-shear it right off) if the pilot hole
    is not the exact size for the screw being used. Use a pilot bit (with
    taper, shank, and countersink), not a plain drill bit.
    
    Same advice for elcheapo cabinets with veneered particle board.  The
    board will split/crumble if the pilot is too small.
    
    Also, with wood this thin and the long screws you need to get through
    one stile into the next, drill alignment is critical.  Get the shelves
    out of the way and don't get too close to the bottom or top.  Try to
    stand as much behind the drill as you can.
    
    For fastening to the walls, it is true that drywall screws have poor
    shear strength, but you can make up for that by using a lot of them.
    You can put in a lot of d/w screws in the time it takes to do pilot
    holes for wood screws.

    You might also check note 517.49 and replies. There's some basic 
    installation advice there. 
    
    Also, on the advice of a contributor to note 517, I picked up the 
    Hometime (PBS show) video on kitchen installation -- $8.99 at Spag's
    Schoolhouse.  I thought it was worth the money just for the few tips I 
    got from it.  But its greatest value was as a confidence builder -- seeing 
    it done really helped to clarified the process. 
    
    By the way, you'll have to sit through some pretty bad Chevrolet truck
    commercials on the video. As I watched the Hometime crew raving about 
    Chevy trucks, I couldn't help but think of Bob Vila ...
    
    Joe  
       

    We are doing our kitchen over this Spring, and have pretty much decided
    we want to go with Kraftmaid Hickory cabinets.  Has anyone had any
    experience with this brand?  Also,  where is a good place to buy them. 
    We've found a place in our area (Leominster), but they only offer 20%
    off list.  My folks just bought Kraftmaid at 40% off in northern New
    Hampshire.  I was hoping to find a competitive price closer to home.
    
    Any info would be appreciated.
    
    Deb
    

    
    I put Kraft Maid cabs in my last kitchen, and was pleased with them. We
    got them at Moore Lumber at a once-a-year 45% off sale. The one thing I
    can recommend against, don't get the double depth over the fridge
    cabinet, it's too flimsy and winds up sagging, no matter how well
    braced to the wall or adjacent cabinets.
    
    Otherwise they are excellent quality and have innovative features, plus
    they don't look just like everyone else's.
    
    CdH
    

    We are redoing our kitchen and have decided on Quaker Maid.  If you are
    interested I can send a copy of the spec sheet if you send me mail.  I
    found them to be similar to the Wood Mode cabinets (I have 1 copy of
    their literature that is free to the first mail I get before noon on
    3-APR-1990).  
    
    What I didn't like about Wood Mode is that they come almost exclusively
    with knife hinges.  This tyle of hinge may be authentic colonial style,
    but looks like an afterthought.  The only one they had without knife
    hinges had doors that were a bit too ornate.
    
    So, we are going with Quaker Maid.  From Creative Cabinets in
    Worcester.  (The owner you disliked so much is dead now, Cindy, and his
    wife operates the store.)  The folks that work there are real nice.
    And yes, we are getting rollout shelves and spice racks, and lazy
    suzans, and tilt out soap drawers, and....
    
    Oh, and one thing I really liked was that their wall cabinets are all
    33" instead of 30".  Since I'm 6'4", and do most of the cooking, I can
    really use the space up top.
    
    To summarize on the freebies:
    
    	1. copies of Quaker Maid Spec sheet...all their sizes and shapes
     	   of cabinets, options, etc.  request a copy anytime (in the near
    	   future)
    	2. 1 set of Wood mode brochures & spec sheets (free from Kitchen
    	   Associates)...great for planning, or even just dreaming ("I want
    	   cabinets like that...now all I need is a house like that to put
    	   them in!)  Send mail before noon Tuesday, 3-apr-1990 (Tewksbury,
    	   Ma time)

    I can second Quaker Maid. When I redid the kitchen in the last house, I
    installed Quaker Maid cabinetry and was very satisfied. The quality was
    very good, with such things as dove tail joints on the drawers.
    Definitely a beautiful unit.
    
    Eric

 We got Quaker Maid cabinets for our kitchen last year at Creative Cabinets.
  Here are the things that really impressed me:
 

 - The factory builds everything to order, and we were told it would take
   8 weeks for them to show up.  We were pleasantly surprised when they showed
   up exactly when promised.

 - The cabinets were delivered directly from the factory in Pa. to our front
   door, which meant no chance of things getting damaged or lost by
   middlemen.  Everything we ordered was there and in mint condition.

 - We got a lot of good help with developing the plan for the kitchen, and
   everything fit perfectly.

 - The cabinets look great! Most people think they are custom made.
   (Solid cherry facing and doors, dovetailed drawers, excellent fit and
    finish, etc.)


 Quaker Maid isn't cheap, but we feel we got more than our money's worth
 in quality and service.

  Joe M.

    I just got a flyer from Moore (in Ayer).  They are offering Kraft Maid
    at 50% off, truckload sale.  Their usual price is 40% off.

  We got KraftMaid at Builders Kitchen Cabinets in (I think) Stoneham.
  Their price was high, but we were able to convince them to lower it
  after finding a better price at Moore. We're very happy with the
  cabinets. They look great and the installer said they were very well
  made -- comparable to custom stuff but at a regular price. We're glad
  we went with Builders over Moore, though, because one door came in
  damaged in shipment, and Builders got a replacement sent UPS to our
  house within a couple of days. My experience with some home centers
  (not Moore) has been that they're a little short on after-sale
  service, which is something you really depend on with kitchen
  cabinets. Also, Builders has some very experienced designers who can
  help you do a beautiful and practical plan. We found, to our surprise,
  that there are dozens of little things which you can forget about when
  ordering which will cost you money later.

    re.45 I'm just finishing up my new kitchen with KraftMaid cabinets
    that I bought from Moores during a sale..Majorie at Moore's in
    Leominster was great to work with and resolved the minor problems
    we had. If you'd like details contact me via HYDRA::CARLSON.
    
    Another note, We had a card from Mass buying power from a place in 
    Worcester who gave us a price and it was several hundred higher than
    the Moore's price..
    
    	Dave

    Well, we decided to go to Moore's in Leominster for the 50% off list
    sale.  We ordered our cabinets this morning!  Now we'll just sit tight
    and wait.
    
    Thanx for all your help.
    
    Deb
    

    I just finished doing a remodel of my kitchn which included all new
    cabinets. 
    
    The cabinets I purchased came with special screws, very much like long
    sheet rock screws but made especially for hanging cabinets. During the
    project I discovered that these screws are sold in several large
    hardware chains. They won't shear no matter how much muscle you use and
    a screw gun zips those suckers into studs with amazing speed.
    
    If you don't have help hoisting the cabinets in place (I didn't) build
    a framework of scrap 1x3's to the approxamate height above the counter
    top. I left the old counter in place while I hung the wall cabinets.
    Lift each cabinet in turn onto to frame and shim to level the cabinet.
    I then drilled pilot holes thru the cabinet (in the locations
    recommended by the cabinet manufacturer) and zipped in the cabinet
    screws. The beauty of using a screw gun is that you don't spend a lot
    of time in an uncomfortable position hand driving screws into studs.
    Also, I found that it was easier to make minor adjustments for wall
    irregularities by shimming when necessary. Scariest part was fastening
    the cabinets together thru the stiles. As mentioned earlier the stiles
    on modern cabinets are thin. Careful drilling of pilot holes and
    tightening screws is a must. I used the screw gun to start with and
    finished tightening by hand.
    
    I also hung a cabinet over a peninsula top by using threaded steel rods
    thru the ceiling into 2x4's fastened to the joists above. 
    
    jb 

    There is (was?) an outfit in Colorado Springs, CO, that will sell
    you the precut and predrilled wood pieces, either finished or sanded
    unfinished.  They will build with virtually any species you could
    want (burl or rosewood, anyone?).  They will UPS a sample cabinet
    that you assemble (and disassemble and return to them).  They have
    over 100 door styles to chose from.  They also understand that planning
    a cabinet intallation is an iterative process for amateurs and are
    quite willing to help you through the ordering process.  They claim
    savings of up to 40% unassembled and unfinished.  
    
    I have a friend who built a 4500 sq. ft.!! house in Groton, ultra
    deluxe, and he was real satisfied with the cherry raised panel cabs
    he installed.  He had used this company before, as he has built
    the last five or six houses he has lived in.  
    
    I'm in the process of designing my kitchen, and will see how they
    can stack up price wise with locally available stuff.
    
    CABINETMASTER & KITCHENMASTER
    PO Box 6536
    2525 West Pikes Peak
    Colorado Springs, CO
    80934
    303 634-7988
    
    Carl

Re. .-1

The area code has changed to 719.

Also, I looked in the phone book and neither name is listed.
They may have gone "belly-up".

Gary

I have a small formica countertop, 24"X22", and need to cut it. The top is 
detached from the base so I can run it through the table saw or whatever.
What is the recommended way to cut through it? Do I cut from the top or
bottom? What kind of blade, etc...

Thanks a lot!

    
    Just use a combo blade. Tape the top where you want to cut it and mark
    the line on the tape. Make sure the blade is SHARP. Go slow.
    
    CdH
    

    In addition to the tape (which is a good idea), keep the finished
    surface UP when using a table saw.  When using a portable circular saw,
    do the opposite.  Keep the finished surface down.
    
    Bob

    (I looked through the Cabinets keyword listing and didn't spot
    anything related to the following...)
    
    I'm about to embark on a complete kitchen remodelling, which will
    entail, among other things, removing the old cabinets.  The
    cabinets I have were custom-made for the kitchen, they're not the
    standard modules that are hung together.
    
    A friend who saw them the other day suggested to me that I'd be
    able to sell the old cabinets for a not-inconsiderable sum; that
    some people would love to be able to buy used cabinets that are
    made as well as these.  (Her words, I might not have been so
    charitable, though they are solid.)
    
    Is there any kind of a market in used kitchen cabinets?  Do I
    hold a yard sale, put in an ad, or just tell the installer to
    rip them out and trash them?
    
    				Steve

Did you consider using them for basement storage, or perhaps in the garage.  The
wall cabinets in particular can be used to give extra storage that hangs out 
over the hood of the car.

If not they will can certainly be sold thru this file, or a local ad.  Just 
'cuz you're sick of them, doesn't mean everyone else won't like them, even if
they were surfaced with yellow "glitter" formica!

If all else fails, offer them on the front lawn with a sign that says "FREE".
Some neighbor will probably be glad to take them off your hands.

    You didn't say if you were doing this yourself or paying someone.
    
    If you're going to do it and have no use for the old cabinets, trash
    them.  If you're paying someone to "de-install," trash them as well.
    The extra effort to carefully remove for reuse doesn't seem worth it
    to me.
    
    Of course if someone wanted the old cabinets, you could always let
    them remove and haul away...
    

The cabinets seem to be oak, stained relatively dark.  They have fixed shelves.
We'll probably pay the installer to remove the cabinets, though we did
consider removing them ourselves if it seemed worthwhile.  I had thought
somewhat of using them in the workshop, but I have quite a bit of storage
there already.  And I don't think I could use them in the garage.

Well, we'll see what shape they're in when they're removed.  If it's too
difficult to remove them in one piece, I suppose they'll just get
trashed.  Otherwise you may want to watch the "For Sale" note here (but
not till January...)

				Steve

I may wind up being interested in one or two....., but not for much $.  I'd be
using them for shop storage cabinets.

So don't forget to post here when you rip them out.

Paul

If they're old enough, they may be really "built-in," meaning they're not
discrete boxes.  In this case, it's practically impossible to salvage them.

They are not discrete boxes, as I indicated in the base note.  We'll see
how it looks when it's time for them to come down.

			Steve

>================================================================================
>Note 3983.0    Is it worth trying to resell old kitchen cabinets?     No replies
>QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent"      19 lines  24-SEP-1990 20:28
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    Is there any kind of a market in used kitchen cabinets?  Do I
>    hold a yard sale, put in an ad, or just tell the installer to
>    rip them out and trash them?
>    
>                                Steve
>


Steve,

	When I remodeled the place where I bought my new cabinets offered to buy
the old cabinets. They didn't offer much $500 so I didn't take them up on their
offer. Guess what I still have them, if you can get anyone to buy them before
you take them off the wall, then go for it.

					Dwayne 

Let me know when they're removed, I'll need 2 or 3 cabinets to go over the
washer and dryer in my new 3/4 bath//laundry room.

Steve

    I took a closer look at my cabinets, and asked the installer.  These
    were built in place and are nailed to the wall.  There are no backs
    to the cabinets.  I sincerely doubt it would be worth it to try to
    remove them in one piece, so... don't hold your breath on my offering
    them for sale!  But thanks for the advice, it may help others.
    
    				Steve

    Anybody heard of an outfit called Panna-Baker (not sure ofthe spelling)
    out of New Jersey.  We're being offered an "upgrade" by the distributor
    we're dealing with here in Chicago, but the distributor doesn't have
    any installed references.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Tom

When we were looking at kitchen cabinets, one place was pushing Pannabaker.
They looked pretty decent, but we ended up getting Brammer (if I remember
correctly, the price was better and the quality was comparable).

    I just finished installing new cabinets this summer.  I bought Omega
    cabinets from Lou's Cabinets in Hudson, N.H.  These are all wood, with
    3/4" sides, birch veneer interiors, ball bearing drawer slides, 1/2"
    maple dovetailed drawers.  They're available in a variety of woods,
    cherry (3 shades), walnut, oak, etc.  (Pennypincher doesn't have
    cherry).  They're available with full coverage doors or the standard
    style.  They have 3 grades available.  The lowest grade uses the same
    face stock as the middle grade, but 5/16" or 1/2" sides, and priced at
    the Merillat level.  The middle grade, (what I bought, above) uses the
    heavier construction, and is competitive with Brammer.  The top grade
    has better grain matching, and is priced 20-30% higher than middle.  
    Lou has a nice variety on display, and is ultra low pressure.  I
    visited him about three times before I wrote a deposit check, and he
    was very patient.  He will also do a kitchen layout for you, and visit
    your house for measurements, if you want.  He will also do complete
    installation for you, if you are non-DYI.
    
    Please, find an Omega dealer in your area, they're manufactured out
    west or midwest somewhere like Iowa or Oregon.  I'll try to find a
    phone number or adress and post it here.
    
    Carl

    
    
    I've been shopping around for unfinished cabinet doors in NH and 
    Mass and it seems every place you go nobody stocks them.  You have
    to put some money down and order them and wait 6 weeks.  I'm buiding
    a 30" wide kitchen cabinet and I'd like to just pick up the doors
    and finish this project off before christmas.  I'm looking for reason-
    ably priced doors to compliment the maple cabinet I am working on. I
    only need two doors.  Does anyone know of a place where I can just swing
    by and pick up a couple of doors?   I live in Mass and work in NH so
    location is flexible.  Any ideas?
    
    Signed,
             I don't do doors Dave
    
    

    Somerville Lumber in Acton, MA carries unfinished cabinet doors,
    although they seemed to be oak.  Don't know if they carry maple.  You
    could give them a call.
    
    Bob

    Bob,
    
       Thanks for the tip, I'll call the new Somerville Lumber in Bedford,
    NH for the tax break.  How would oak doors look on a maple frame if I
    use a medium/dark stain, for example a dark oak stain as opposed to a
    golden oak stain?  Would the difference in woods really be noticable?
    
    Thanks,
              Dave

    Atlantic Prehung Doors on Conant Street in West Concord would probably
    have them (it's a pretty big place), but they are a factory, and I
    dunno if they sell to end users.  You might have to pick them up during
    'normal' working hours, but I'd give them a try....
    
    Willie

I've seen unfinished pine doors at Moore's in Fitchburg.  I suspect that they 
carry them at their other stores in Ayer and Littleton.

I don't know about the staining to match part.  Though, it seems to me that you 
would have better luck trying to match the maple if you used the oak rather
than the pine.

    You might try posting a request in DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS. 
    Someone there might be willing to make a set of doors for you.  That
    way you could provide the same wood.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add Woodworking to your notebook
    

    Thanks for the ideas.  Sommerville Lumber in Bedford, NH did have the
    pine doors in stock but they have knots and didn't look like they could
    stand up to the quality of the wood already being used.  I'll check
    into  Atlantic Prehung Doors to see if they do cabinet size. I'll also
    post this in the woodworking conference as suggested.  Thanks again, if
    I get any good leads, I'll let you know.  By the way, so far, I've
    found Penny Pinchers Cabinets to be the cheapest, but they take 6 weeks.
    Also the cheapest I've found for a whole 30" wide, solid oak face &
    doors, unfinished cabinet was at Builder's Square in Nashua NH for
    $92.00.  The front is nice but the rest is particle board.  
    
    Regards,
    Dave
     

Dave this isn't aimed at you in particular.  These are just some DIY rules I
have learned for purchasing materials.  I thought I would enter them here.  
Some are obvious.

	1) ALWAYS get the hardest to get or most important part for your 
	   project first.  (like your doors, Dave)  As a general rule you 
	   won't be able to get *exactly* what you want and will have to 
	   make some adjustments in the project.  Of course, you won't
	   know which is the hardest to get part until you have bought
	   everything but that part.  (one of the DIY Catch-22s)

	2) ALWAYS get all the parts you need before you start work.  This
	   is impossible.  You will always need one last wood screw or 
	   washer or something.  It will be midnight Sunday when you 
	   realize this.  This part will be essential and prevent any
	   assembly or work until you get it.  This reinforces the 
	   *always* get all the parts first rule.

	3) ALWAYS buy as many parts as you can get at each store.  If a
	   place didn't have all the parts and there was a line at the
	   register I used to just mumble "I'll get all the stuff at
	   the next place".  This is impossible.  If you need 5 parts,
	   the most any store will have is 4.  No 2 stores will ever have
	   the same 4 parts.  This means you will have to go to at least
	   3 stores to get any given 5 parts.  If you follow this policy
	   it insures you will be able to work on your urgent project 
	   (like the leaking pipe flooding the basement) tomorrow because
	   you were in 3 store lines all day getting the 5 necessary parts.

It works for me,
Stan
	   

    
    Stan, good input and I have to laugh because it's all so true as I have
    recently realized.  It looks like I've learned the hard way but at
    least I'm now on my way to completetion of this project.  Here's what
    happened...
    
    As I began to look around I found that Oak is much more popular than
    Maple and was therefore more readily available in many places.  So I 
    returned my unused maple and went with Oak.  Sommerville Lumber in
    Acton did have Oak doors in stock, one style - square frame with a flat
    panel.  They were the cheapest and only place I found who stocked the
    doors.  I paid 19.95 per 14" x 27" door.  All other doors I've priced
    for ordering have been almost twice the price.  
    
    I checked out a place called Woodworks in Acton to see about doors and
    possibly building the entire cabinet.  Doors would have been $50.00
    each and the whole cabinet would have been over $350.00.  So that
    fueled the fire for me to continue on as a DIYer.  Of course the $350
    price was for a very high quality construction using premium wood.  I
    believe with a little patience and practice I can do as well though.
    My total cost should be around $150 total to complete the cabinet.
    
    So to all who have helped, I thank you for getting me back on track.
    
    Just one more question:   Does anyone know of a good place to get
                              veneers at a good price?
    
    Thanks,
            Dave
      
    Atlantic Prehung Doors doesn't do cabinet size doors.  
    
    

I forgot one of the most important DIY purchasing rules.

	4) ALWAYS get at least 20% more of each part than you estimate you
	   will need.  This is a minimum, usually you should get about twice
	   as many.  For example, if you estimate you will need no more than
	   99 feet of electric wire for a project.  Don't get the 100 foot
	   roll. Get the 250 foot roll.  You will find you have about 3 feet 
	   left over.  This has a second major advantage.  If you are a good
	   estimator, you *will* have parts left over.  DON'T return them!
	   THEN, If the pipe in the basement starts leaking and flooding the 
	   whole area, you just might have those 5 parts you need to fix it 
	   and not have to wait all day in 3 store lines to purchase them.

Very important,
Stan

    I am in a tough situation that I'm hoping someone can help me with!
    We recently built a house.  We ordered our kitchen through a guy in
    Westford (B. Brothers Cabinets).  He installed the kitchen cabinets
    and bathroom vanity cabinet - without doors.  The doors were
    "supposedly" on order.  After the installation of the cabinets, he
    went bankrupt.  We are now stuck with cabinets and no door fronts!
    I've checked a few places but it's turning into a very expensive
    problem.  We are looking for a white, glossy look.  We also want glass
    fronts on 7 of the doors.  We've been told that Maple or Birch are the
    two best woods for this look because they are hard and the grain won't
    show through.
    
    So far, the range of prices I've received is between 3k-6k.  I thought
    we'd be able to do this for about 1k.  Does anyone have any suggestions
    that would be less expensive??  We are really in a bind.   
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Daire

    I suggest you also post this plea in 

    		DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS

    it looks like an opportunity to make some decent money.

    p.s.
    As a personal aside, I have no idea what a reasonable price SHOULD be
    but my instinct is that

    <we are really in a bind>
    
    resulted in some bids ($3000-$6000) that are almost criminally high

Scott Blanchard is doing my kitchen cabinets.  His price for fully custom
cabinets (vs stock cabinets from custom makers such as woodmode, quacker maid,
and cameo), plus formica counter top and installation is $6500, vs $8600 - $9300
for the other mentioned brands (cabinets only!!).  He does make his own doors,
so he may be able to help you out.  We don't have our cabinets yet, but we did
see his, and his wife Ginny took us out to his most recent installation.  He
does very good work at a very good price. (btw. the $6500 cost is for a kitchen
in a 13x18 area).  His number is 508-429-7210

    We started shopping for our cabinets awhile ago.  We walked into Maki's
    in Gardner one rainy Saturday and discovered a person designing
    Merillat kitchens on a Macintosh.  Three hours later, we had one
    designed, and learned a bit about buying stock cabinets.
    
    This last weekend, another rainy Saturday, we wandered into Moore's in
    Ayer.  There we learned about Schrock Deluxe and Kraft Maid.  I fell in
    love with Kraft Maid Maple Hill - it's something simple, striking and
    unique in a kitchen cabinet.  Both Schrock and KM have some unique
    features, like radius cabinets for inside and outside corners.  We
    discovered we can have a corner cabinet without a yucky lazy susan in
    it.  You can get a corner cabinet with one curved or straight diagonal
    door, with two shelves in it.  You can put more in it than in a lazy
    susan, and you can also get into the whole unit to clean it.  No more
    tempting crumbs or goo in the corners.
    
    We were also intrigued by the Hickory by both Schrock and KM.  We were
    impressed with the quality of the cabinets.  We weren't shocked by the
    sticker price yet, because we didn't have our Merillat design with us.
    
    Who else besides Moore's carries Kraft Maid?  I've seen Schrock at
    Somerville, Maki and Moore's.
    
    What kitchen brands does HQ carry?
    
    Elaine (she's caught the bug)
    

    
    Twice a year, in spring and fall, Moore's has a factory backed sale on
    Kraft Maid, between 40% and 50% off. I waited until that sale when 
    renovating the kitchen in my last home. Kraft Maid makes a good
    product. No snob factor, though.
    
    CdH
    

>         <<< Note 653.61 by STROKR::DEHAHN "No time for moderation" >>>

>    Kraft Maid makes a good
>    product. No snob factor, though.

  Nicely put. We think they're great (we also have Maple Hill --
  super-nice lines, and those curved doors are really magnificent).

  We got ours at Builders' Kitchen Cabinets in Stoneham, which is more
  expensive than Moore's. We felt that we were likely to get better
  service in the event of problems than from Moore's, but I have no
  experience with Moore's to indicate that they would give you any
  hassle. And Kraft-Maid stands solidly behind the product, making it
  easy for the retailer to give you good service.

  One point of praise for Builders': they had the experience to make
  some very subtle and worthwhile improvements in our initial floor
  plan. We're not sure that many other retailers have such good
  experience. At least we were impressed.

If you want a wide selection of cabinets, professional design service and
expert installation (optional), check out Kitchen Associates in Sterling, MA,
on Route 12 near the Leominster line.  Ask for Dino.

We used them, with excellent results.  They carry several brands of cabinets,
including Wood-Mode, that we went with.

Steve

We just did a new kitchen.  We spent a lot of time looking at stock cabinets.
Eventually, we went with a Holliston cabinet maker, Blanchard woodworking. For
comparision...

	Brand		Price		Comments
	
	Woodmode	$8600		cabinets only. no countertop or 
					installation

	Camio		$8300		did not include hardware, countertop,
					or installation

	Quaker Maid	$9300		same as woodmode

	Blanchard	$5875		this included formica counter top and
					installation (he charged $500, others
					quoted around $1100).

	other things included in the price:

	1-He made about 5 trips to the house, as he had to construct some of the
	cabinet parts after the cooktop and sink were installed.

	2-He and his wife went all over the place hunting for the hinges we
	wanted.

	3-He made up a board with different shades of the stain we wanted.

	I also had to get used to not having to talk in increments of 3 inches,
        as he could make things to any size you wanted.  It took about 3 or 4
	weeks to get the cabinets (over xmas and new years).

	Note.  He doesn't do frameless cabinets.

Those of you in the market for kitchen cabinets should at least visit
the showroom of a good kitchen designer.  For example, in Nashua I'd
recommend "Dream Kitchens".  In DK's showroom, they have sample installations
of many different cabinet styles, from those you might find at a building
supply store up to those that seem at home only in pictures from
"Architectural Digest" (and never to actually be used!)  You will be
shown the different sorts of construction used, and have a much better
notion of just what you would be paying for, no matter how much or little
you spent.  Custom cabinets can indeed be no more expensive than stock,
and a good kitchen designer (not a salesperson from a building supply store
with a catalog) can make all the difference in the world.

				Steve

    I am currently in negotiations with both a kitchen cabinet store, and a
    cabinet maker for new cabinets, and am seeking information about the 
    typical markup on cabinets and/or other people's experiences in price 
    negotiations.  I have assumed that the markups are similar to that for 
    other 'furniture' and can thus be as high as 100% from dealer to
    customer in the case of a store bought cabinets. Is this accurate? 
    In negotiations, what ranges of discounts have been obtained, either
    for cabinets-only or cabinets plus installation deals?
    
    Thanks in advance for your help.

Since places like Grossman's and Somerville Lumber sell kitchen cabinets
at 40% to 50% off list and make a profit, I'd say 100% markup is on the
low side.

From my experience with custom-built cabinets, 100% markup seems about
right.  Please keep in mind that this markup is what pays for the
kitchen designer's time and the store's facilities and staff.  I found
that the designer I worked with was very willing to throw in various
"freebies" and absorb minor costs.  I didn't consider it worthwhile to
try to reduce his margin.  

		Steve

    OK I'll revive aan old note with the hopes of solciting some input.
    
    I have new cabinets (~1yr old). I/we have decided not to use hardware.
    The problem is the doors and drawer fronts do not have "finger pockets". 
    A good friend of mine has explained to me how to route the pockets into
    the bottom of the top_doors, the top of the bottom_doors, and the
    bottoms od the drawer fronts, useing a router and router table. 
    Is this a do it yourself project ??
    And , just as important... what type of finish do I use ? The pockets
    will be "out of sight" , except for the tops of the bottom doors.
    
    Anybody ever try this ? Any feedback on feasability ?
    
    Thanx for the input / Bob 

The first thought that comes to mind is the style of the door.  Most doors I've
seen are 3/4" thick and are set into the frame, leaving only 3/8" in which to
cut the pocket.  I have no idea how this would be done.  My guess would be that
doors/drawers with pockets have their full 3\4" exposed...

-mark

    Looked in 1111 for related discussion....no luck.
    
    My question deals w/ a kitchen cabinets ability to support a significant
    amount of weight. We recently purchased 2 settings for 8, of kitchen
    stoneware. This stuff is heavy ! Maybe 40 lbs. Not to mention that
    in the same (above counter) cabinet are preserves, and other large
    service bowls. 
    
    My kitchen cabinets are oak, and are screwed into (on to ?) 3/8"
    plywood, wich is screwed into 2x4" studs. I made it a point 2 years
    ago when we did the kitchen, to put plywood behind all the cabinets
    so fastening the cabinet units wouldnt pose a problem. The mounting
    screws for the cabinets are (I believe) 3" #10 screws (pretty heavy
    duty) So I am not so much concerned w / the cabs coming off the wall
    ,as much as the stregnth of the cabinet units themselves.
    
    What is a safe "max load" for a kitchen cabinet unit (in pounds) ?
    
    How well are cabinet units designed , in relation to supporting 
    a heavy load ?
    
    
    Any feedback appreciated..
    Bob
    

    
    I am in the process of remodelling our master bath.  We have orderded
    new cabinet doors for the vanity.  Does anyone know where I can find
    some veneer to cover the cabinet frame?  The veneer has to be white to
    match the new doors.  I am looking for the peel and stick stuff, and it
    has to be 'flexible' enough to be able to wrap around the frames.  
    Somewhere in the Nashua area would be ideal.
    
    							Thanks,
    								Dave 

Dave,

The last few times I've been at my local lumber yard, I have noticed a stack 
of various veneers.  The name I remember is "Pionite", but I don't imagine the
brand matters much.

I was at Maki Home Center (Gardner and Lunenburg, Mass), but I imagine any 
decent lumber yard would have it, especially a standard color like white.

Elaine

I've such things at Home Depot in Nashua.

Of course, you're not really asking for "veneer", which is thin sheets of
wood, but a stick-on laminate.

			Steve

    
    
    I think Trendlines sells it also.  The might have a 
    bigger selection.
    
    JD

    Where is Trendlines???   I have seen the Pionite stuff and it is too
    thick and not flexible.  I need something which looks like laminate but
    which is "paper like" in order to be able to wrap around the cabinet
    frames.  
    							Thanks,
    								Dave

Any material which is hard like laminate plastic is not going to go around
corners well.  Usually there is a miter joint at the corner; this is not
difficult to produce with the proper tools.  Is there some reason you insist
on it going around the corner continuously?  Have you considered Contact paper?

			Steve

    
    
    There are 17 locations........  I"ll give you a few
    Springfield, Woburn,Chelsea, Framingham, Manchester NH......
    
    .............1-800-767-9999...........
    
    		Just to give you a price...
    Veneer Sheets.  Pre-glued, 24"x96" $45.
    
    JD

    Thanks for the info.... I haven't thought of using contact paper.  I'll
    buy a roll and try that out.   I'll also check out the Manchester
    Treadlines...
    							Thanks,
    							
                                                              Dave

Bob, 

I don't know the answer to your question but it sounds like you might be a
customer for government surplus cabinets.  In particular, I recommend the
General Dynamics XKR-4590279 Tactical Field Munitions cabinet.  This cabinet
will withstand a nuclear detonation as close as one mile.  In addition, once
the door is closed, if the munitions go off the cabinet will not open.  They
have been shown to bulge a little in tests though, so you might want to step
up to the next higher strength cabinet.

	Pricing:

		General Dynamics XKR-4590279 		$1,245,782.69
		Tactical Field Munitions Cabinet

		General Dynamics XKR-4590279-1SD	    $1,268.27
		Installation screw delivery system

		General Dynamics XKR-4590279-1S		      $197.63
		Titanium Screws

These prices are per each.  You will require 625 screws per unit for the
installation (1 mile nuclear detonation rating) of each unit.  Each unit
weighs 6.23 tons.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;-) :-) :-)
Stan

>>>weighs 6.23 tons.

    Guess they're aren't available as 'cash and carry' eh..?
    What's they're delivery range and pricing .. have that handy..?  :-)
    
    K-

    re .1
    
    actually I considored that excact cabinet, the only problem was a 
    small notation on the bottom of the install instructions indicated
    I needed the craftsman cabinet-hoist/engine crane to be mounted in the
    attic on unistrut, or a (minimum) 3" steel I beam. Whereas I had
    recently installed the new and improved/delux/super air shredder
    I ran out of space. I am going to see if I can suspend the cab from a
    french crane boom, from an adjacent dwelling.
    
    Its nice to have neighbors...
    And thanx for the pointer
    
    
    Of course I could always mount a vertical 4x4 (with the edges router'd of
    course) on top of the counter top  8^)
    
    Happy holidays-

    re .3
    
    >>recently installed the new and improved/delux/super air shredder
    
    Can you point me to the note for the air-shredder?
    
    I've got just the opposite problem: I've got the crane mentioned
    in the note and have decided to replace it with the air-shredder.
    
    

    
    Rep .1
    
      You forgot to mention if this price was for the decorator series.
    Do the charge extra for this? Do they come with the hydraulic door
    openers at an additional cost?
      We have lots of LEAD crystal and these cabinets sound just like the 
    thing we need. My wife is a little weak armed though and I thought
    that these might be what we are looking for, but the cost of operating
    hydraulics has me worried. Also, I understand that they can withstand
    a nuclear detonation as close as one mile, but can they be secured well
    enough to keep a teenager out??                               

These cabinets are highly recommended for teenagers.  
NONE have ever escaped from one.

Stan

    I can second the recomend for Builders Kitchen Cabinet Co. I and
    my SO visited them yesterday after sitting with Somerville Lumber and
    Home Depot,Nashua. We looked at Brammer and Kraftmaid cabinets.
    They seemed to be roughly the same grade cabinet and we liked a
    number of different styles in each.
     The Brammer were more expensive for cabinets and their accessories,
     roll out shelving, bread box, etc.
     The Home depot kitchen specialist was helpful and spent quite a bit
    of time producing a CAD layout of our kitchen and a price list of
    two different cabinet styles. We were able to leave with the printout
    of the layout and quotes without any obligation and they stored the 
    layout in their computer as well. Somerville did a pencil layout and
    quoted on two styles of Brammer but kept the layout.
     Builders Kitchen Cabinet had many kitchens set up in the Kraftmaid
    brand as well as 3 or 4 different brands. We dealt with Rocco Rinaldi.
    He had some very helpful suggestions and was very pleasant to work
    with. They have a CAD setup as well. We priced the same lines of
    Kraftmaid cabs there and found no difference in pricing even after
    taxes were added. 
     My sense is that we may get better service from them if problems
    arrise. They have been in the Kitchen Cabinet buisness for 28 years
    catering mainly to builders and contractors, as well as homeowner/
    remodelers.
     I'll post more when we actually purchace and install.
    One other thing. The choices of styles from Kraftmaid are almost
    overwhelming compared to Brammer.
                                          Bob
    

     Forgot to mention that they are at 134 Water st. in Wakefield Ma.
    617-245-3880. I think an earlier pointer was to Stoneham Ma.
    b.c.

    
    I put Kraft Maid cabinets in my last house, they were well made for
    their price range. I did have a few problems, however. They are made
    in a factory (in Ohio?) and shipped by truck to the retailer. More than
    once a cabinet arrived broken. A large part of the cabinet is low
    density particleboard which breaks easily. I don't know if this was the
    fault of the retailer (Moore lumber), shipper, or factory, just watch
    out for it. You won't know it's broken unless you unpack each box, so
    you might want to unpack them at the retailer. Unless you like return
    trips.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

      I did see that some of their EURO line cabinets used low density
    particleboard. To the best of my recolection the "all wood" cabinets
    we specified come with a cabinet grade veneered plywood body, solid
    oak face frame and door/draw fronts. Drawers have plywood bottoms
    and solid maple sides.
      However, I appreciate the advice on damage as I'm sure the above
    specs do not guarantee against damage during shipping. I intend to
    have them deliver and will inspect each carton at that time.
    
    thanks, Bob

I'm trying to replace the handles on my kitchen cabinets and have had no luck
in finding suppliers who carry 2 3/4" handles.  Renovator's supply is a no-go,
nor could I find anyone local to me (Wilmington, DE) who could help.

I've complicated my search by needing a contemporary look (black wire-pull
type) - I originally bought 3" plastic handles, but they've all cracked
and/or broken.

I really don't want to have to fill, drill and repaint 27 drawers and doors.

Any leads?

-- Tony

Re: .10

Try a kitchen design store.  I know that, for example, Dream Kitchens in
Nashua has about a half-dozen displays of almost every conceivable type of
pull and knob, and can probably get some not on display.  You may have to have
them ordered, though.

				Steve

    Has anyone heard anything negative/positive about RIVCO in Westboro? 
    I would also like any comments on the custom cabinets they carry called
    "Plain and Fancy".  
    
    Thanks,

    
    	Has anyone seen in their travels , any unfinnished cabinet doors
    with glass inserts? anyone seen the same style with and without glass?
    
    			wendy o'
    
    

 I saw them at Somerville Lumber in Pelham NH a few weeks ago.	-bob

           Also, see note 2168 in CONSUMER conference.

    I just had custom cabinets installed in my new house, and I want
    to recommend the cabinetmaker.  It was Ray Bent of Carriage House
    in Milford, NH (603-672-2205).  The cabinets are cherry with a natural
    finish, and they look fantastic!  Ray also made the bathroom vanities
    and a linen cabinet for the house.  
    
    We had an idea of the layout we wanted, and Ray made suggestions and
    put together a kitchen that works great for us.  He was very 
    accomodating, and gave us exactly what we wanted.  Because the cabinets
    were custom, everything fit perfectly with no wasted space.    
    
    My husband and I looked all over for premade cabinets, but found that
    with natural cherry the color variations between wood pieces made the
    cabinets look lousy since the wood pieces were not properly matched for
    the doors.  Ray was very careful to match wood tones.  In fact, it is VERY
    difficult to even see the wood seams.
    
    I was a little skeptical about buying cabinets I couldn't "see" first,  
    like you do in a kitchen store with all the displays, but it worked out
    great.  Also, Ray's price was very reasonable for custom cabinets, and
    he worked to our budget.  
     

I'm looking for some special hardware to build a shelf for my PC keyboard at 
home.  What I want is a shelf that will slide under the desk (drawer style), 
but when it is fully extended, its height can be adjusted.  The desk is a 
typist's desk, and the terminal sits on the lower section.  That's the perfect 
height for me (6'4"), but my wife (5'5") needs it about an inch lower.  

What I've found to date are ready made keyboard drawers from Computer stores that
just slide in and out, but remain at "wife height".  These are also kind of 
flimsy, and I'm not even certain they would fit where I want them (one end must 
but against the drawers, the other end has to hang from the underside of the 
desk... too wide, and it misses the end of the typist's desk and hangs in space).

I've also found an articulated keyboard shelf from Better Ways (makers of 
ergonomic and expensive accoutrements for the workplace).  This is way fancier
that I need, and about $125.  

So, since I can deal with making a board (I have Dave Barry's instructions), I'm
looking to buy the hardware needed to make the board behave as I want.

Any ideas where I might find such hardware?

    Try "The Woodworkers' Store" on Mass. Ave. in Cambridge (between
    Porter Square and rt 16).  I'm pretty sure they sell the hardware.
    
    Paul

Is this different than "Woodworker's Warehouse"?

Is this different than "Woodworker's Warehouse"?

    Re: .12
    
    Trendlines/Woodworker's Warehouse Outlet (stores lots of places,
    including Nashua, and also mail/phone order: 800-767-9999) has
    what you need for the slightly lower price of $69.99:
    
    Fold-Away Keyboard Shelf - Locks in any position - Swingarm mechanism
    
    It swings your keyboard with ease forward and up for operations.
    When not in use, it stores your keyboard with proper clearance.
    Designed for all desks and tabletops.  Tilts and locks to 15 degrees
    for more comfort.  The stabilizer lock allows you to lock solidly at
    your choice of position.  Top measures 9"x22" plus front cushion pad.
    Order number KB22.

    I was there (Nashua store) today, and looked at that particular model. 
    I'm tempted, but it's quite bulky.  Once it is stowed under the desk
    (and it's not apparent from the illustrations that it ever goes
    completely under), it would occupy the space about 8" down with the
    mechanism, meaning you could never tuck knees under the desk again.
    
    I'll keep looking.
    

    re: .15
    
    The Woodworkers' Store is not the same at Woodworkers' Warehouse (aka
    Trendlines).  Trendlines has more tools, and Woodworkers' Store has
    more specialty hardware, veneers, etc.  They're not a discount store,
    but they have a good selection of cabinet hardware.
    
    Paul

    Applecross Cabinetmakers anyone?
    
    I picked up a flyer on them at a Boston Home Show and the distributor
    was "Cabinetworks" out of Brockton (which appears out of business as I
    can't find them anywhere...)
    
    But the beautiful model they had was called "Traditional Shaker" and it
    appeared to have inset wooden nails (you know the look) as it was
    antique reproduction cabinetry. 
    
    Do you know a maker that has this style (like Kraft Maid, or Quaker
    Maid, etc...?).

We want to add some kicthen cabinets to a wall that has a baseboard heater 
(standard forced hot water baseboard).  There is currently nothing against that wall.

Is is possible to retrofit some standard base cabinets so the heat can radiate or be blown out?

Its the only heat source in the kitchen so we can't pull it out without installing some other heat 
source.  I suppose we could just bolt a counter/drawer assembly to the wall the leave the lower 
part open (maybe just place stools underneath and use it for a breakfast area) but we'ld like to 
have the extra storage the base cabinets would allow.  The wall is only 81 inches long.

Any suggestions?  

    Yes - we did this.  We took out the baseboard and substituted a
    fan-forced kickspace heater.  Works very well.  Most any heating
    contractor as well as most supply stores will have these; there are
    various sizes available.
    
    				Steve

    One brand is called "Toester".  They come (that brand at least) in
    two sizes; the smaller is equivalent to about 7' of baseboard, and
    the larger is equivalent to about 15' of basebord.  They are in
    the range of ~$200 each, depending on size/discount/whatever.  

How does it work?  Does the entire piping above the floor have to be removed and replaced 
with a lower profile unit that includes the fans?  Are the fans rigged to come on 
automatically with the heat?  Do the cabs have to be cut and retrofitted (I assume you at 
least have to install some sort of duct that vents out the kickboard)

If you're going to ask how to do it, we're going to have to send to you an
existing note.

1111.1     Homework directory note
-> 111.50  Heating, FHW
-> 3783    Installing kickspace heaters

    I've got a curio cabinet that I would like to install a lock into the
    doors. The cabinet is one of those tall(7'), mostly all glass cabinets.
    The width of the wood on the doors where I would like to install the
    lock is pretty thin, say about 1.5" to 2.0" for each door.  I'v tried
    all of the usual places for the lock(HQ, Somerville Lumber, NHD, small local
    hardware stores in Marlboro, WestBoro, Franklin, etc) and can't find
    what I need.  Does anyone have any ideas where I might find this kind
    of specialty lock?

The Woodworker's Store and/or Woodworker's Warehouse/Trendlines would have
such things.  The former has a store in Cambridge, MA, the latter in Nashua, NH.

			Steve

... as mentioned in earlier replies.

    
    Theirs one just opened in Auburn Ma. or RT 12..
    
    

There's a woodworker's warehouse around the corner from Searstown Mall in
Leominster.

We have a bunch of cabinets with old hinges that go on the OUTSIDE of the door.
Since they're fairly old looking, I'd like to replace them.  Unfortunately,
almost all of the hinges I've seen are installed on the INSIDE.  

I've looked in:

Sears
Home Depot
Home Quarters
Somerville Lumber
Many, many hardware stores

Can anyone suggest a place that might sell a large variety of cabinet
hinges, or a place that sells hinges that go on the outside of the door?

Thanks,
Mike

The majority of hinges I've seen that go outside the door are wrought-iron
strap hinges, and these can be found almost anywhere.  The Woodworker's
Store and Woodworker's Warehouse are good sources of unusual hinges.

					Steve

Thanks Steve.  Where are The Woodworkers Store and Woodworkers Warehouse?

- Mike

See note 677.

    Is it too nitpicking to expect cabinets to line up perfectly?  We are
    in the midst of new construction, and several7 of the cabinets are slightly
    higher or lower (1/16" - 1/8") than their neighbors.  Not the doors,
    but the cabinet frames themselves.  Also, has anyone ever heard of 
    STARMARK Cabinets?  good, bad, indifferent?

    What is it that's not lining up - that you can see, I mean.  In a
    good installation, there is a "scribe molding" that covers the top and
    bottom of the cabinets so that you wouldn't see a slight mismatch.
    The doors, of course, should align perfectly.
    
    Never heard of STARMARK.  
    
    					Steve

    In beer-can collecting they use the "five-foot rule", meaning any
    difference that you can't see from five feet away isn't a difference
    worth collecting.  
    
    I apply that rule, or appropriate variants, to lots of my projects. 
    Everything is built to some kind of tolerance, but the smaller the
    tolerance, they more you will pay and the less noticeable the
    difference.  
    
    You are looking closely at these cabinets right now, but unless you
    think 1/16th of an inch is going to drive you crazy forever, I wouldn't
    worry.  If it does drive you crazy, they can fix it, but I expect you
    will end up paying more.  

    
    Depending on the cabinet style the tops should either be scribed
    and planed to fit the countours of the ceiling/soffit or aligned
    with eachother if they don't contact anything above. The horizontal
    elements of the facia should all line up (when like cabinets are side
    by side). 
    
    The bottoms of like cabinets should line up exactly. They are right in 
    the line of sight (especially when using the counters). I could
    understand if these were older cabinets in a house that settled and
    forced them out of alignment... but in new construction (or just a new
    cabinet install) this is unacceptable to me. If you hired someone to do
    the job... make sure they do it right. 
    
    ALSO: MAKE SURE THEY REALIGN THE CABINETS... NOT JUST PLANE THE BOTTOMS 
    TO MATCH! 
    
    Why does it seem that fees for (so called) craftsmen are constantly on
    the rise while quality and standards seem to be on a downhill slide??
    
    								- Mac

<    Why does it seem that fees for (so called) craftsmen are constantly on
<    the rise while quality and standards seem to be on a downhill slide??
    
Probably the single biggest reason is LOW BID mentality. Everyone wants the
cheapest price around. Because of this all the profits get lower. When the
profits get lower you only get those who are willing to work for nothing, don't
carry insurance because they can't afford it etc. Very typical of the housing
industry in the U.S. What we are experiencing is the quality/price trade-off
that the market is willing to bear at the time. Not at all unlike what the
computer industry is going through right now but on a different scale. Same
results though.

Just my theory based on nearly 20 years in the building industry, your mileage
may vary :')

    Thanks for the opinions.  As for craftsmanship, this is a very
    expensive project, and the foreman is talking about using filler
    between the gaps in the frames of the cabinets.  As for the doors that
    open backwards, he is talking removing the doors, and filling the holes
    in the frames, and drilling new holes on the other side of the frames. 
    He has to order new doors because they can't be turned upside down and
    redrilled.  There will be crown molding across the top of the cabinets,
    but the misalignment on the bottom is something that will "drive me
    crazy" forever.  The builder said he would screw the cabinets tighter
    together, and that will make them line up.  Is that a workable idea 
    or is he just putting us off?

    
    Few walls and ceilings are dead square so you'd expect some fitting and
    scribing.  Whate usually gets done is the carpenter sets a baseline for
    the cabinets by screwing a 2x4 to th wall at the height where most
    cabinet bottoms will be.  The cabinets are positioned on this 2x4 to
    ensure that the bases align.  If a wal kicks out a bit, the bases of
    adjoining cabinets may not line up and he'll need to shim out at the
    back to align the botton.  Did he do anything like that when they were
    first installed?
    
    C
    
    

    
    If he's saying that he can align the cabinets by screwing them together
    (which is normally done anyways) he's implying one of two things:
    
    	1. The cabinets are sagging away from the walls/ceiling and he's 
    	   going to solve this by carrying the load of the sagging cabinets
    	   by securing to the neighbors.
    
    	2. He's going to twist the frames into submission.
    
    HOW did you end up with backwards cabinet doors?? Was the problem in:
    
    	1. Specification of the layout?
    	2. Did YOU mis-order the cabinets or did HE mis-order?
    
    If the specification of the kitchen layout was wrong... accept whatever
    solution you can get. If YOU mis-ordered the cabinets, accept whatever.
    If the kitchen was specified clearly and HE mis-ordered the cabinets,
    then I'd have him eat the cost of taking them down, ordering the
    correct cabinets and putting them up correctly this time. (Assuming these
    cabinets have face-mounted hinges... otherwise, no big deal).
    
    If these holes are on the face and I was spending $x on a kitchen, I would 
    *NOT* tolerate filled holes on my frames just because the builder made a 
    bonehead play. You'll see these fills, no matter what he says.
    
    								- Mac
    

>                             -< Yeah, I'm grumpy. >-

	I'm grumpy too. What the builder is saying would have set me off but
	good had I been paying for it.

	Screw the cabinets together to make them fit right? Well, if you
	screw one side together, what happens to the other -- it'll either
	pull apart on the other side, or distort the cabinet, right?

	Filler between the cabinets? What a hack, especially on a new (and
	as you said, expensive) job. Drilling holes in the front of new
	cabinets, and filling? Again, a hack.

	If it were me, I'd insist that the job be done right. If that meant
	taking the cabinets down and putting in new ones, so be it.

	It sounds to me like the builder screwed up and is just trying to
	get out of it as cheaply as possible. You'r epaying, and you'll live
	with the results.

	Unfortunately, taking a hard line doesn't breed a great working
	relationship. I'd also watch him like a hawk everywhere else from
	now on...

	Roy

re: .8

>	Unfortunately, taking a hard line doesn't breed a great working
>	relationship.

The saving grace here may be that if he's already got kitchen cabs installed
the relationship may be winding down anyway.

:^)
-Jack

>    Thanks for the opinions.  As for craftsmanship, this is a very
>    expensive project, and the foreman is talking about using filler
>    between the gaps in the frames of the cabinets.  

Well, there's your answer right there.  You can't equate craftsmanship with 
expense.  You obviously are dealing with a con man.  Craftsmanship, while 
it usually carries a heavy price tag, is measured in precise alignment and 
invisible assembly techniques.

Just because a job is expensive doesn't mean it's being done right.

Have you spoken with your lawyer recently?

You'd better look up his number and see if he's back fro Florida yet 
because you'll need him pretty soon.

Filler between the cabinets and in unused screw holes !!!!!!!!!!    
Agagagagagagagagagag!!!!!!!

What is this, I vocational school freshman class project?

    re .7 The cabinets were misordered by the builder's kitchen sub.  
    For everyone's information, the builder is Hancock Builders.  They did
    an excellent job on the basic carpentry, but the finishing details are
    not going well.  The cabinet story is just one chapter in an ongoing
    saga.  The condo complex is The Ledges in Winchester, MA.  This is
    phase 4.  We tried to avoid new construction, but we were really
    impressed by the earlier phases.  They were built by the Green Company,
    however, so our phase has turned out to be a lot more work and stress
    than we expected.  Probably everyone involved in new construction says
    the same thing.  Thanks to all  for the advice and moral support.

It's been a couple years since the last reply. I was wondering if anyone else
has a feel for how much negotiating room I may have on the cabinet prices. 

I am looking at custom cabinets from a kitchen designer/installer. Would taking 
10-15% off the price be a fair deal? 



Thanks 

My experience is that the markup is typically 100%.  But depending on how much
your designer/installer does for you, this may be a reasonable fee.  I know
that the designer we worked with earned his profit and we didn't try to
squeeze him down.

				Steve

    Hello,
    
    We had our house built 1.5 years ago, and our contractor got our
    kitchen cabinets from a local deal who has since gone out of business.
    The "appliance garage" we have hasn't stayed closed for a long time.
    Any suggestions on how to fix it or who to call? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Linda

    
    Try Granite State Kitchens in Bedford NH. If they are willing to do it
    ask to have a fellow named Tom Hopkins do the work.
    
    Paul

    
    Unless yours is somehow different, I can't see how it opens.
    Ours is a "SHROCK" and closes like a roll top desk. The 
    physical weight of the thing keeps it shut.
    
    Look inside to see if some prankster connected a rubber band
    to it.   :^)
    
    Fred

re: .0

What type of "door" does it have? Tambour (roll-top) or hinged?

-Jack

    I've never understood the fascination with appliance garages.  Our
    kitchen designer wanted us to put one in - we said no.  I think they
    appeal because of all those pictures in magazines of kitchens which
    are so empty and uncluttered that you just KNOW that nobody cooks
    in them.  My stepmother, who DOES cook in her kitchen, has a "garage"
    but doesn't use it for counter appliances.  They're to small to be
    effective and end up wasting valuable counter space.
    
    Maybe you should just remove the door?
    
    					Steve

	I thought about putting in an applicance garage, but not for
	applicances, but for bread and other room temp. food items
	that I don't want the cats to get into .....

    
    Re: .4
    
    	We have one in our kitchen that we use to hide the toaster oven.
    	It takes up slightly more room than the toaster itself and is 
    	much easier on the eyes than looking at the aging toaster oven.
    
    								- Mac

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for all the responses. It is a "roll-top" type. We can fit quite
    a few small appliances inside, but if the door doesn't close, everyone
    can see the clutter inside anyhow. 
    
    We'll keep trying!
    
    Linda

They are the manufacturer. Buy direct. Shawna will come to your house.

I don't have the telephone number here but call assistance, Gardner MA.

Dave

I am in the process of remodeling my kitchen and have narrowed down the list
of cabinets to 2 manufacturers of custom cabinets. Do any of you have
any experience with or knowledge of: CrownPoint cabinets or Hagerstown cabinets.




Any information is greatly appreciated

    Kitchen Cabinet Doors no longer hang aligned properly on door.
    
    I have {I guess what would be consider new flanged kitchen doors} the
    2 hinges on the door sort of look like they are sitting in a track.
    You unscrew one end and the track loosens so that the door can be
    shifted around so that it becomes aligned again with the rest of the
    cabinet opening.
    
    My problem is I can't seem to get the tracks in place so that the
    cabinet door is in alignment with the rest of the opening of the door.
      
    o = track hinges
    .---.---.                           .---.
    |___o   |                    	|___o\
    |	|  Door all in alignment        |   : \  Door not in alignment
    |---o   |                           |___o  |
    '---'--'                            '---'\ |
                                              \|
    
    Now if I unscrew both hinges, I don't have a free hand to hold the
    door or shift it around to get it aligned properly.  When I did get
    a 3rd hand, the door still would align after being shifted around.
    
    Help! At present the door just kind of hangs slighly ajar, and it
    will not close shut (you know all abutted, etc).
    
    Connie (unhandy woman)
    					
    					

    
    One thing you might want to check is if your door has
    taken a little bend.  Remove the door and place it on
    the countertop.  Press on the corners and see if the door
    rock.  The look to see if all side are in contact with the
    counter.   I have on like that.  The top corner opposit the
    hindges always looks open....
    
    JD

> I know that Liberty Millwork in Hudson, NH .....

	This place appear to no longer be in business (or has changed their
	name since I can't find them in the business listings of the phonebook).

	Does anyone know of any other good sources of laminate/formica
	in the Nashua, NH area?  Home Depot/Quarters have only a very small
	(and poor) selection of in stock laminate.

Holt Lumber will order whatever you want and whatever sizes you want. Priced
by the square ft. He has a good selection of chips also. Rt 111 on the Hollis
Pepperell border

I suspect that Nashua Lumber will do the same. 

Currier lumber in Amherst will also order laminate.



later

Paul

    
   " Real lumber yards will order it for you... "
    
    As will Home Depot, where there are hundreds of chips. The problem
    seems to be that the originator is looking for material "in stock".
    
    	                                       	
    								- Mac	

> As will Home Depot, where there are hundreds of chips. The problem
> seems to be that the originator is looking for material "in stock".

	Correct, I was hoping to find a place with a good/large in stock
	selection.  The reason is I find it hard to get an idea of how
	it will look over a large area when only looking at a relatively
	small chip.

	Oh well, it looks like I'll have to go the ordering route.  I
	hadn't even thought of going to a lumber yard however.  How to
	the prices compare at lumber yards vs. home depot/quarters?

	Thanks all for the info thus far.

Hi,

RE a couple back: No offense meant on the "real lumber yard" statement. It's
simply my opinion of those HQ/HD places. Lots of hype about cheap prices but 
if you buy any quantity at all the locally owned lumber yards typically will
match the prices, deliver for free, know what they are talking about and the
overall grade of lumber tends to be better. Besides I'd rather keep a local
in business than feed some anonymous corporate entity :')

Here is another place for laminates:

The only place that has any large quantity in stock in this area is the
wholesale distributor up in Manchester NH. They probably won't sell to you
though but it won't hurt to try. Usually you have to be reseller or in the
business. IE an account, letter head or some proof of being in business. I can't
remember how to spell their name. Phonetically it's sho-etts or something like
that. They are on the Londonderry side over by the airport.


Later

Paul

I recently bought some Formica (TM) and found that Home Depot had better prices
than Somerville Lumber on in-stock material, but Somerville lumber was less
expensive for custom-order.  Make sure you find out the custom-order price
wherever you're shopping.

	Paul

	In case anyone else is looking, here's the results of my
	shopping around.  I've choosen Formica brand "Fogdust" w/a
	matte finish (#1816).  Prices below are per square foot:

	    Home Quarters (Manchester)	$1.45
	    Currier Lumber (Amherst)	$1.60
	    Somerville (Bedford)	$1.95
	    Holt Lumber (Hollis)	$2.00
	    Home Depot (Nashua)		$2.05
	    Home Depot (Manchester)	$2.30

	Also by coincidence the style/design that I picked happens to be
	one of the three that Somerville stocks, which lowers the price
	to $1.80-1.83 depending on the sheet size (they stock at least
	the 4'x8' and 30"x8' and I believe they mentioned they do not
	stock any 12' lengths).

	Also note that neither Somerville nor Home Depot (Nashua) would
	price match because they only price match stocked items (and
	laminate is special ordered).

	Also note that the Home Depot (Nashua) price I was most likely mis-
	quoted because the Manchester store said while in general they
	charge $2.05 for Forminica brand, the Fogdust, which is a matte
	finish, is $2.30.

	I was also again treated rudely and with dis-respect by the folks
	at the Nashua Home Depot (especially woman Chris in the Kitchen
	dept).  They were going to have me wait one half hour plus for
	the only person working in the kitchen dept. to finish working on
	the computer for a kitchen design to simply right up my order (which
	I didn't do after they refused to price match).  It just goes to
	show what happens when they no longer have the local competition
	(unlike the Manchester store which still competes, they are like
	what the Nashua store was like when they first opened).

    my kitchen cabinets are about 8 years old. excellent shape. i want
    to make the kitchen bigger which means moving walls and cabinets. 
    
    question: can i count on reusing my existing cabinets ? the
    installation looks so permanent with the soffit, etc. how do
    you get these things down ?? 

>     question: can i count on reusing my existing cabinets ? the
>     installation looks so permanent with the soffit, etc. how do
>     you get these things down ?? 

	Unless they were built in place (and seeing they are only 8
	years old, the chances of that aren't that high that they are),
	the wall units should be screwed to the walls from inside at
	the top and bottom (thru what they call the hanging rails),
	and of course secured to each other with screws (sometimes
	they will be covered by the hinges).

	For the base units you'll first need to remove the backsplash,
	then the countertop which should be secured to the base units
	from underneath with screws (if the countertop is solid surfacing,
	like corian, it may be secured only wih adhesive caulk).

    You should be able to get them off as .1 mentioned.
    
    Another problem would be finding additional cabinets that match the
    originals if adding more cabinet space is in your plans.
    
    ...Ken

    Does anyone know who might make custom size cabinet doors in the
    Nashua, NH area?  I just walled in the basement and have a rather large
    opening (29.5 X 39.5 in.) around the circuit breaker box.  There dosn't
    seem to be anything near this size in standard sizes so I guess I will
    need a custom one.  Any recommendations/pointers would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Bob

    They're not in the Nashua area but about an hour.  Try Superior 
    Kitchen Design in Gardner. (508)632-5072
    

    
    My assumption here is that you're trying to find a single door with 
    a 29.5" span? How about going with center opening double doors instead?
    
    
    								- Mac

    Re .2  Yes, one door 39.5 by 29.5 wide.  I thought about double doors
    but I think the 39.5 high dimension is quite a bit larger than standard
    also.  I'll look into it though.
    
    Thanks,
    Bob

    
    You can get louvre doors and window shutters in various sizes and they
    are easy to trim to the precise dimension.  Back them with hardboard
    or ply to stabalize them (or the tend to warp) and they work well.

    I can't find any note that deals with this topic but since it relates
    to counters ..... here goes.

    I have a kitchen counter made out of a plastic material which
    supposedly is sandable and patchable. The brand name is something like
    Coriand.

    Do any of the noters here have any knowledge of this material and
    specifically (a) how to fill a crack and/or (b) how to remove a stain?

    Alternatively, anybody know of a store that sells it and which might
    have competent help to answer the above?

    many thanks in advance!

    Van

    Van,
    
    The brand is Corian, and it's been around for many years.  We have 
    a bathroom vanity made of the material and its held up well.  Most
    stains can be removed with bleach, just like a formica top.  You
    can sand scratches out.  If you get a gouge, I believe you can buy
    a "filler" kit especially for Corian.  Most everywhere sells Corian
    tops now - Home Depot, Home Quarters, etc - plus most private
    kitchen or bath places.  I think it's made by dupont
    
    andy
    

My brother-in-law works for Kitchen Associates in Sterling, MA.
He is very knowledgeable about Corian as are the rest of the 
sales/installation people.  The number is (508)422-3322.  Ask
for Ron D'Andrea.

Regards,
	JAM

    	Try Croteau & Sons Granite in Groton Mass (if you're in this area). 
    They seem to be lower priced than anyone else (starting @$50 per square
    foot installed).  They have quite a few slabs in stock and can order
    just about anything you want.  They're at 1-800-231-2200.
    
    Brian
    

See note 8 and recent replies for conference reorg discussion.

				Steve

  What are people's experience with Corian countertops and Corian sinks and
  what do you all think of granite countertops with undermounted stainless
  steel sinks?

  I might have to choose by the end of the day and have been confounded by all
  the horror stories by competing salesmen (Corian giving warnings about
  granite, granite trashing Corian).

  I've spent two very arduous years of my life building my own custom kitchen
  cabinets (3.5" maple moulding mitred doors) as my first ever woodworking
  project after none of the design places' ideas fit the bill from my unique
  room layout.  Two years and having survived many setbacks (floods destroying
  some pieces, moisture popping all the mitred corners, etc) later, the kitchen
  has come out really nicely, the cabinets are stunning (if I do say so myself)
  and I'm thrilled.  I also saved a boat-load of money.

  I can get a FountainHead (similar to, some say better than, Corian) solid
  surface countertop and undermount sink for wholesale from the warehouse and a
  FountainHead-licensed relative will do the labour for free.  Whereas the
  granite I have to pay full retail price for, both material and labour.  And
  yet stupidly, I'm still leaning toward granite.  The granite looks stunning
  in the room, it pulls everything together (appliances, wood colour, flooring)
  and just makes the room feel 'alive'.  Part of me feels that after working so
  hard for two years, that I should showcase this work by whatever makes it
  look best.  But what tipped the scale for me (to be stupid not taking
  advantage of a special deal) were the horror stories I've heard about solid
  surfacing.

  Can any of you solid surface owners prove these claims right or wrong? I live
  in Harvard where we have residual iron in the water despite the water
  softener.  

  1) I'm told that the Corian sinks will stain somewhat easily, and that I'm
  guaranteed to have a red-stained sink in a few years (right now we have
  stainless steel but the old porcelain toilets have red stains, but that could
  be from before the softener was added by the previous owner too).  

  2) I'm also told that Corian sinks crack very easily by both the granite
  salesman (he's seen Instant-Hots crack them) and the FountainHead salesman
  (saying you have to warm-up the sink first with lukewarm water before you
  dump hot water in or else, indeed, it will crack and that's not covered under
  warranty if you didn't warm the bowl up first).  When I think of dumping in
  the boiling water from draining spaghetti, I cringe.  If I really have to
  "warm the bowl up first," what a pain. 

  3) That while you can sand out a scratch in Corian, the surface gloss is lost
  and you have to put some special wax on it to hopefully match up the light
  reflection, but you'll always have a mismatch in the room's sunlight.

  4) There are many fabrication issues that worry me.  The die colour is not
  constant between different sizes and lengths of FountainHead, in order to
  match you have to cut everything from one type, say only 12' sheets of 1/2"
  thick by 30" wide FountainHead.  You can't buy a 12' length and a 10' length
  and a 4' length, one sheet 30" wide and the next 36" wide, the colours on the
  melded-toegther countertop will not match.  There are issues about needing
  thicker FountainHead to support the sink, which because of the matching
  requires that extra-costly thickness to be used on both sides of the room.
  There are also issues about FountainHead and heat, you have to be very
  careful with FountainHead and slide-in stoves such as we have.  All these
  scares and horror stories of FountainHead counters that went wrong all came
  from the FountainHead salesman himself!! He point blank said "hey, it sounds
  like I'm talking you out of FountainHead.  I'd get the granite.  That's what
  I have at home.  I'd last forever and stainless steel will never stain on
  you." I was ready to buy the material from him that day, drove far to get
  there, and he sent me away talked out of it and full of doubts.

  Have anyone of you with solid surfacing had any of these problems or
  concerns? Have you been happy with your solid surfacing over the years?

  On the flip side, my only concern about granite is that I'm fearful that
  something might happen (house shifts, cabinet bases give a little) which
  causes the granite sheet to crack, then I'm left with this big cracked slab
  of granite in my house.  Otherwise granite/steel is perfect.  No worries
  about scratches (nothing scratches granite that I'd have in the kitchen), no
  worries about heat (can put oven-hot pot right on granite with no worries,
  steel sink won't crack), it's great for rolling pie crusts, it looks
  fabulous, and will last untouched forever.

  My rational side says I should take advantage of the FountainHead offer and
  indeed was ready to do so, but my aesthetic side says I should honour my hard
  work with beautiful granite.  The FountainHead total is $2K, the granite
  total is $4K.  A needless $2k spent is a lot of money to waste though, and
  puts our kitchen way over budget even more than it already is.  There would
  go the idea of paving the (needs it badly) once-gravelled driveway this year.

  What would you do? Do you love your solid surface? Do you love your granite?
  What are the down sides to both?

  -Erik

    
    	Cool, thanks for the pointer to Croteau & Sons Granite in Groton,
    	I'll give them a ring. So far I've been dealing with Milford
    	Granite in Milford, MA.

    	I've heard it important to have a reputable person/place cut your
    	granite and install, that it can make all the difference in how the 
    	jobs comes out (even more true with solid surfacing).

    	Has anyone seen the work from these two or anyone else you can
    	recommend?

    	-Erik

    I understand the consternation you are having over the choices.  I
    would go with what I like and can afford.  We chose Corian 3 years ago
    and are mostly pleased with it.  It is durable and easy to clean.  We
    did have a minor crack that the installer easily fixed.  I believe that
    all the look-alike products are pretty much the same.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Mark

    We just redid our kitchen over and went from tile counters to granite.
    Living in Milford, we obviously used Milford Granite.  They were great.
    We had no problems with them or the granite countertop.  The price does
    make you think about your options, but, we are very happy we chose the
    granite.  It looks great.  Having had tile before, our only choices
    were tile again or granite.  Not having to worry about placing hot pans
    down or scratches...etc is a nice benefit.

    
    
    When we were faced with the choices some 8 1/2 years ago, we opted
    for Corian in the bathrooms and stainless steel for the kitchen.
    Back then, there were fewer choices for Corian kitchen sinks, I wanted
    a double sink, one sink slopes gradually into the disposal and one
    sink big and deep enough to pile pots and pans in. I didn't want 
    enamel or porcelain anything that can chip or crack. I didn't want
    anything that's kill my dishes and glasses. I think (no stats here) 
    stainless steel is a little more forgiving. Over the years, we managed
    to dent (one incident offhand - my daughter bought me this cute little
    potholder that was not very functional, I dropped a whole big pot of 
    hot boiling water into the sink) and scratch the stainless steel (not 
    the best place to scrub out the grill rack, but ...), but it still 
    looks nice and is functional. All in all, I don't think the Corian
    would have held up as well as the stainless steel. But then again we 
    don't have another sink (like a utility sink) where we can stick anything 
    and everything in. YOur mileage may vary.
    
    
    Eva                

  Thanks for all the feedback!

  I looks like I'm going the granite route.  I've hit three solid surface
  salespeople now that have in their own personal kitchen, granite.  Concerns
  about water stains are real, sink cracking is also a problem, and having seen
  pieces cut from one end of a sheet placed next to the other end of the SAME
  sheet and seeing an incredibly discernible difference (all the dots
  sunk/migrated to one end?) which would wreak havoc with all my counter seams,
  I can now officially say that I've seen enough of solid surfacing.  The other
  thing about using granite is that the way I designed my kitchen, it's going
  to be one of those rare seamless counters.  One L-shape will be cut from one
  enormous rectangular slab of granite, and the second L-shape countertop of
  differing heights (baking center) will be cut from the 'waste' of the first
  L-cut.  I hate the seams in granite, and I feel I really should take
  advantage of this special seamless design feature.

  The first place I went to offered me the seamless cut, the ability to have it
  installed or to just pick up the pieces ready to install.  Another two places
  said that they flatly cannot make the L-shape from one seamless piece,
  whereas the fourth place gave a tentative maybe (if they call the quarry).
  The other two places also don't even DO delivery! (They give an A-frame
  to borrow for transport).  The impression they give is that the install is
  extremely easy.  Carry the stone in, squirt _optional_ (!!) silicone on the
  cabinet, put the stone down - done! 

  Apart from the L-shape being heavy and having 5 friends ready to help, is it
  really this simple to install granite yourself? Have you done it, would you
  recommend it?

  Three price quotes are dead close to each other (within $10), however the
  place in Groton has a price that is over a third higher.  They nickel and
  dime every cut, every polished surface, every polished side of the stone with
  its own charge amount.  I didn't get any special features (plain squared edge
  vs.  curved bullnose edge, etc) and it still added up.  They charged an awful
  lot for the backsplash as well (they said "it's a lot of work for a small
  piece of stone").  The other places looked at the same exact piece of paper
  of my design, wrote down stove and sink cutouts, wrote down standard 4"
  backsplash and gave me one price.  They included everything in one quote.
  Either Groton is priced high, or these other places will add surcharges later
  despite what's written down on the quote.  I'm fearing "Oh, that's a LOT of
  backsplash" or "I forgot, that price didn't include the stove cutout" etc.
  Am I right to believe that a quote is a quote, that if they wrote down
  backsplash, stove cutout, etc and the price right next to it, that this is
  what I should go on as a final price and rest easy? The price difference
  makes me nervous.

  I'm dropping by another place for another quote on the way home...

  -Erik

  PS- the granite choice was locked in when I found our undermount stainless
  double sink.  All the places wanted $585 for a basic D-bowl double sink.  A
  tip for those shopping is that Home Depot has undermount Kohler sinks at a
  special Home Depot 25% off the list price.  Not one else gets that direct
  discount from Kohler.  The problem is that it takes them 42 days to receive
  it.  If you need it now (like I do to get the granite cutting started) you
  have to pay list+markup at the local fixtures stores.  Order from HD early
  and save.  I was bummed because $585 is more than the Corian sink and I was
  counting on the "cheaper" stainless steel to bring to overall job price for
  granite down.  Then I stumbled into a fixture store that was giving up
  selling sinks and had one spill-center double bowl stainless left, the guy
  let me take it for $200! I'm psyched! Decision made, granite here I come...
  :-)
                   

    This is just my opinion, but if you're installing it yourself, someone
    slips and drops that behemouth, you've probably got an extremly ugly
    seam or two.  I assume if an installer screws up you're covered. 
    Assuming the installation charge isn't outrageous, I'd consider it
    cheap insurance.
    
    
    JMHO,
    Brian

>                                             I've hit three solid surface
>  salespeople now that have in their own personal kitchen, granite.

Sounds like there lots of money to be made selling solid surface.

>A tip for those shopping is that Home Depot has undermount Kohler sinks at
>a special Home Depot 25% off the list price.  Not one else gets that direct
>discount from Kohler.  The problem is that it takes them 42 days to receive
>it.  

     A better tip for custom orders from Home Depot is:  don't.  Custom 
orders are not returnable, there is the 42 day wait and you don't get to 
see what you're buying and are stuck with it if you don't like it.

     Instead, call Standard of Lynn and they will deliver your Kohler sink 
the next day for exactly the same price as HD's discounted price.  If 
there is a problem they will pick it up at your site and give a full refund.

    
    So has anyone 'installed' their own granite countertops here?

    When you watched the people install yours, did it look treacherous,
    would you recommend a DIY install approach?

    The install price is $800. That's a lot of money for cheap insurance if
    all they are going to do is carry the sheet in like a sheet of glass
    (on its side not flat) and then laying it down on the base cabinets and
    saying "done."

    If the only concern is dropping the piece from the truck to the house, I
    think having five guys there for those ten minutes should cover it,
    don't you think?

    -Erik

I'd pay the $800.  I have heard many times that installing granite is
very difficult to do right.

				Steve

>     (on its side not flat) and then laying it down on the base cabinets and
>     saying "done."

    I'd be concerned with the tipping from on-its-side to flat just
    prior to installation to be one of the tricky areas. If the "L"
    shaped sheet of granite is not supported properly, I can just see
    it breaking! Ouch :-(

    Charly

    You can find some more info in Fine Homebuilding, Mar 1996, #100.
    See page 68.

    
    
    	I'm not a normal participant here so if anyone has any 
    	ideas for my dilemma, please send them via mail to
    	DECWIN::JUDY
    
    	I rent an apt. so this isn't my home we're talking about.
    	I did something very stupid and would like to try and fix
    	it before approaching the owner of the house about replacement.
    
    	What did I do?  I used a knife on my counter top instead of a 
    	cutting board.  I'm not good at guessing what is what in this
    	business but the counter top is of the newer style, formica or
    	a laminate on the top.  Dark blue...... only now it had a bunch
    	of thin white lines on the top of it, from the knife.
    
    	Is there any way to repair this so that the cuts aren't as 
    	noticeable?
    
    	Thanks for any ideas....
    
    	JJ
    

    
    You may want to check with someplace that sells/installs
    kitchen counters as to what they recommend. What I'd suggest
    is trying some types of car polish. There are so many brands
    and types, but some have mild abrasives that may work out the
    scratches. Rubbing compounds, which are more abrasive are used 
    to remove car scratches, so I suspect they could possibly work 
    on a counter top. Of course you'd want to test a small area first.
    Good luck.
    
    Pete

I think there are laminate-repair kits that may be of use.  Your success will
depend on whether the laminate is solid color, textured, etc.  Pete's
suggestion is worth following up on.

					Steve

    I have laminate countertops (maybe Formica brand, but I honestly don't
    know).  I know that they were installed when the previous owners
    remodeled the kitchen, which is about seven years ago.  Near the stove
    and over the dishwasher (where it can be VERY steamy), the laminate on
    the sides of the counter is coming off.  What do I use to re-attach
    these small segments of laminate?  What kind of "glue" should be used? 
    What, if anything, can prevent this from happening in the future?
    
    
    Thanks,
    Susan

    What should be used is contact cement.  Apply a coat to each surface. 
    Let dry then put both surfaces together.  This is what should have been
    used the first time as well.
    
    Dan

    Thanks, Dan.  --S

    don't use the contact cement you buy at Staples or similar; go to your
    local Homeowner Hell and get a small container of the contact adhesive
    that's designed for the job. It's nasty stuff, but it holds up..
    
    ...tom

has anyone else discovered the water based stuff yet?  I was a little skeptical
but tried it out and it was fine.  The nice part (as one would expect) was 
cleanup.

as for the laminate surface coming up, I'm not sure if this method will really
work as you have to paint BOTH surfaces and let them dry completely before
pressing them together.  If LOTS of the surface is coming off to the point where
you can lift/support it for 1/2 hour what the glue dries, you'll be ok.  If an
edge is coming off just a little, this is a whole different game.  Also, I don't
know how well the glue will stick to an older surface, especially if it's been
contaminated with oils, etc.

-mark

> has anyone else discovered the water based stuff yet?

	Somewhere in this conference I could of sworn there was a discussion
	about the water based laminate contact cement.  One would of thought
	it would of been in this topic, but doing a "SEARCH water" on this
	topic didn't find it.  Maybe the discussion got mis-placed during
	the last conference re-org??

    Does anyone know if there is a rule of thumb as to where to place 
    cabinet knobs.  Maybe it's personal preference....eye level?  I am
    putting new knobs and bails on new, painted cabinet doors and drawer
    fronts.
    
    Thanks

My personal rule of thumb is to put the new knobs in the same holes
that the old ones came out of.

HTH,
Pete

    
    ...though if I had my druthers, I'druther put the handles low on the
    high cabinets and high on the low cabinets, 'cause it seems to be human
    nature to claw at the door edge rather than reach an extra few inches
    for the handle.
    

    RE: .363 by WLDBIL::KILGORE
    
    I agree, and build a jig to drill the holes uniformly.
    
    Mark

    Is it possible to paint a countertop? If so, what type of paint should
    you use & how to you prevent it from scratching?
    
    Thanks,
    Judy
    

>                     <<< Note 264.372 by SMURF::MCMILLEN >>>
>                        -< Can you paint a countertop? >-
>
>    Is it possible to paint a countertop? 
>    you use 

If you mean a normal laminated plastic ("Formica") countertop,
yes you can.
The normal prep rules apply - sand enough to roughen the finish, wash and dry.

> If so, what type of paint should you use

I don't know - I'd guess some good quality acrylic.
It depends on the finish you want.

> & how to you prevent it from scratching?

I don't think you can short of not using it.


All said, I wouldn't bother painting a plastic countertop.

- tom]

Is the countertop covered with Formica or similar? If so, I would think it would be 
impossible to paint it and be able to use it or even have it look like anything you 
would want in your house.

I think almost any change to a countertop requires a new countertop, and new Formica is 
relatively inexpensive and easy to do.

Pete

    Yes, it's Formica or something similiar. The paint "expert" at Home
    Depot said that you could with acrylic paint but I thought it would
    scratch. This is for a cottage so I really didn't want to make a big
    project out of it, so maybe I'll replace it someday. 
    
    Thanks for the input.
    Judy

    You can paint it, but you won't be happy with the results.  It will
    look awful after a very short time.
    
    				Steve

I'd have to agree with Steve.  I can't see how a painted counter top is 
going to last too long - and if not done perfectly, it will become a real 
pain in the ass (chipping etc).

bjm

   Can anyone share any tips on installing a granite counter?

Thanks,

Pete
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    	If you mean a slab rather than tiles, I suggest that you don't
    unless you have just a small piece to do.  The material weighs in at
    50+ pounds a linear foot.  Mine didn't quite fit perfectly, so the
    installers did a little on site cutting and polishing.  Transporting
    the pieces is pretty tricky too.  Its fairly brittle unless its fully
    supported.
    
    Brian
      

Thanks, I've read other replys and people seem to be nervous about 
doing thier own installation and recommend against it - however - 
I've got 4 simple rectangles and I can't see paying $400-$500 to 
have someone come in and lay the counter top on my cabinets.
The stuff is being delivered and while I was at the manufacturer,
I found a slab as big as the biggest piece I have and tried lifting
it to see if the weight was going to be a problem - it wasn't.

 Since I'm building the cabinets, fit is a non-issue as I can adjust
to accomodate for any minor screwups.

I'm looking for advise as to how they attach the counter top to
the cabinets.  Epoxy?  Silicone caulking?  Drill/screws?

Thanks,

Pete
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

	Make sure your supports are FLAT, LEVEL, and SOLID.
You don't want to distort the slab - it'll crack, so your
structure must be nicely planar.  Make it sturdy 'cause the
stuff is HEAVY.

	I'd just hold it down by applying some caulk or 
adhesive on the supports before dropping on the slab.  The
weight should hold it just fine.  I've installed cast fake-onyx
stuff this way - just added beads of silicone caulk to the tops
of the supports, and dropped it down.

	Where'd you get your slabs, and how much were they?  I've
heard that if you go to the guy that actually makes the stuff and
not the fancy store reseller you can get much better prices.  And
it's the cutouts and fancy edge work that really bring the price
up, too.  True?

    	My granite tops just sit on top of the cabinets, but they are all
    pretty big pieces.  I do have narrow pieces in front of and in back of
    the sink which are bonded to their neighbors with some special epoxy.
    
    	.-1, The edge work does get very expensive (as does delivery and
    installation).  I got mine from Croteau in Westford Mass.  The basic
    cost of polished slabs was $18 per square foot.  I think even the
    simplest edge treatment was $10 per linear foot.  Add more for a fancy
    edge, backsplash, rounded corners, initial measurement, delivery and
    installation and it got up to $80 per square foot installed.  Its still
    quite a bit less than Corian, and to me it looks better, and it will
    last forever....  Just don't keep tippy glass things in your upper
    cabinets.  We had a pot cover fall out of an upper cabinet and the
    blast radius was a good 20 feet.

Re:-2 

  The cabinets are WAY overbuilt so the weight of the granite
won't affect them.  I had also planned to make sure they are
exactly level so the slab(s) are totally supported and the floor 
will also get some attention.

  Shopping around for the granite was a lot like shopping for a
car - it's almost impossible to compare prices unless you know
exactly what your looking for.  I would suggest learning about
all the "options" like edge treatments, backsplashs, etc, and creating
a detailed plan to take to several suppliers for quotes.  Different
colors can have very different prices, so either pick a standard
marble and remember the name (the stuff I got is call Ubatuba) or get 
a sample of the color you want and spec that in your plan.

  I found that of the 5 places I looked, the quotes were all within 
a few dollars of each other - the 2 exceptions were Home Depot and
a Kitchen place.  For some reason, they uplift the cost by
a huge margin.  I choose to go with Milford Granite because they
had the best attitude, shortest lead time and answered my request 
for a quote promptly (I had to call/fax another place 5 times, Home 
Depot took 5-6 phone calls...)

Re:1 The biggest piece is for a free standing island which could
potentially get bumped/leaned on so I feel like I'll need a little
more than gravity to hold it down since it's not up against a wall.
My current plan is to use "Liquid Nails" construction adhesive to
secure it.  I've used this on another project (marble face on my
fireplace) and it's held 3/4" thick 9"x18" tiles for over a year
on a verticle surface with no problems.

Thanks for the info.

Pete
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

You can also save some money at LeMar or Milford Granite by selecting
a remnant.  They discount the price to move slabs leftover from
other jobs. This is a good way to save money if you can find a color
and a large enough piece(s) for your project.  Some of the remnants 
I saw were quite large - like 14'x6'
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    Anybody here have any experience using the premade edges for laminate
    countertops? any idea of costs? will they sell it to someone who isn't
    a "fabricator"?
    
    I'm drifting toward the Wilsonart Custom Edge series; I've seen a
    similar thing on one of the zillion home-improvement shows, and it
    looks like (given a router and a good miter saw) a fairly easy job.. 
    
    I have experience in doing self-edge laminate, but I'd like to try this
    for the current kitchen.. 
    
    ...tom

    	I'm not familiar with what the Wilsonart Custom Edge series is, but
    I too had something I had seen that I liked. It was half round oak
    edging with custom rounded corners. The half-round oak is easy to find,
    but I couldn't get the corners. I wound up making them myself.
    
    	You may have better luck if you call the actual supplier rather
    than trying to get them though a reseller (retailer). HQ or Home Depot
    said that they could not get just the corners, though they obviously
    want to sell you a custom top, along with it's high markup.
    
    	Ray
    
    	Ray