Conference 7.286::home_work

    Try Rivco on RT 101A.  
    

While you're at Rivco, try stopping in at Lappe Plate Glass, which is right 
next door.  You'll probably be able to get a piece of glass to go in your old 
frame.  Ask for Bert, Eddie isn't much help.

Paul

    Try Blue Star Glass in Hudson.  They can make what you want.
    
    Boll D.

    
    	I replaced a whole window unit because all of the wood had
    	rotted.  (I even found earthworms living in it!!).  I put
    	in an Anderson unit that cost somewhere in the $20's.  Not
    	too hard to do.  They come in relatively standard sizes,
    	although the width of my opening was larger than standard.
    	I simply filled the space with wood and caulked well.
    
    	The unit is simple yet well designed so that you can open
    	it from either the top or bottom, or remove the window 
    	entirely.  It tilts in.  It comes with a baked-on white
    	finish.  A good one-hour project :^)
    
    	Joe O.

    Went to Rivco. They sent me next door to LPPE. BERT WAS VERY HELPFUL.
    With the frame bent the way it was, he could only put pexiglass
    in.
    Certainly better than nothing.
    
    Thanks folks.
    Gary
    

    NEEDED - Alternative to 4-mil plastic sheeting for covering
             windows, Porch screen frames etc..
    
    Every fall, I put up plastic sheeting over my screened-in porch
    panels to keep the weather out, but it looks like Hell from outside
    and you can't see thru it very well. 
    
    I've heard that there is a clear heavier guage plastic that is still
    flexible enough to stretch over screen frames for tacking or stapling.
    It is closer to looking thru window glass than that smokey 4-mil
    plastic is, which is like looking thru thick fog.

    Has anyone seen it or had experience with it ?  Does it last more
    than one winter without becoming brittle and cracking ?
    
    Where can you buy the stuff ? 
    
    Any other ideas welcome too !
    
    	
	Jim

spags sells the 4mil and 6mil cheap.  i use the 6mil as the 4mil tends 
to tear about 1/2 way thru the winter.  Yes, its not see-thru.  (but I 
have drapes over my glass doors anyway - for extra warmth.

I've seen 'clear' plastic 'insulating-window-shades' that have sticky 
stuff on 3 sides - you put them over a picture window, pull them down
and seal them - but i think they're pricy - not sure if theyll work 
for doors.  

I'd be surprised if you could get thick plastic that was see-thru

    I think you're talking about "Warp's Flex-o-glass" (or maybe
    Flex-o-glaze).  It is heavy, quite clear (a little wavey, but
    cler) and I'd think you should be able to get it at any decent-
    sized hardwae store.  I don't know offhand if Spag's has it,
    maybe somebody else knows.
    It should last a couple of years at least.
    
    Steve

  Isn't there also some stuff that you put up on the inside of the window,
  then heat with a blow dryer to shrink it tight?  I thought it was made
  by 3M but I could be mistaken.

  JP

    
    3M does make that shrinky stuff - we use it on a few of our windows
    in the house every winter.  It really cuts down on drafts, and done
    if done properly, you almost can't tell it's there (especially if
    you have curtains covering the sides)!  You have to be careful with 
    that blow dryer though - too much and it tears.  To apply it to 
    windows all you do is stick the two-sided clear tape that comes
    in the package around the window and apply the plastic to it, then 
    heat to get the wrinkles out. 
    
    This works great on inside windows, but I don't think it would be
    big enough to cover porch screens, or strong enough to hold against
    the winter storms.  And naturally, Spags carries it at the best
    price around.
                
    	Conni
             
    

    Yeah, I've used the shrink stuff and it is very clear.
    
    When I took down a section the tape stayed and looks terrible.
    How do you get rid of the glue?  Masking tape does the same thing.
    
    Angela

    you can buy the 3m stuff for use on the inside of the window, or
    on the outside of the window.... the largest size i've seen is 5'2"
    tall by 17' long, or thereabouts... supposedly enough to fit 5 standard
    size windows (whatever size that is)... costs about $12 per package.
    
    

    There is a much better product made for greenhouse covering. Its
    clearer and much longer lasting than normal poly. I friend in MAine
    sells a temporary structure kit- for boat building, car storage
    etc- using the stuff. Im not sure exactly whats its called or where
    to get it but I could find out.
    
    Ron

    Boy.. the response so far is better than I expected. Thanks everyone
    for your ideas.
    
    RE: .1  3M clear plastic....  I've heard of that, but thought it
    may be too thin to stand up to outdoor beatings.  The cold, wind
    and ultra-violet from the sun would probably do a number on it in
    no time.  Has anyone tried it for outdoor exposure ?  Does 3M indicate
    on the instructions whether it is intended for 'indoor use only' ?
    
    RE: .7  <...much better product for greenhouse covering...>  That
    sounds interesting and would like to know more Ron, if you're willing
    to help.
    
    Thanks again folks, keep them cards and letters comin'
    
    Jim
    

    RE: -1 The 3M stuff is made both for indoor and outdoor applications,
    and it is marked on the front of the box. Capitol wharehouse stores
    in Fitchburg have another brand that I picked up recently for about
    a buck less than 3M. The next week it was 1.79 and two days later,
    marked down to .89. None of the packages tell how many mils the
    plastic is, but they feel the same.
    
    	Steve
    

    I have bought clear vinyl from Moore's in Littleton.  I am
    sure the main store in Ayer would have it.  It is fairly heavy,
    I estimate 6-8 mil.  And it is very clear; sort of what they use
    on the rear window on some convertibles.
    
    __Rich
    
    And it is a bit more expensive then regular 6 mil poly.

Re: residual 'goo':

I put the 3M stuff on my downstairs windows (the downstairs is little more than 
storage despite being "finished", so the windows never get opened). 3M 
admonishes you to not leave the things up more than a year (it's been 3 in my 
house) - perhaps that is to minimize the goo. Masking tape is the same way -- 
leave it too long and some of it stays behind.

Try turpentine/paint thinner to remove it. Usual precautions apply - try a 
"test" are first to make sure the stain doesn't come off with the goo, make 
suer there's adequate ventilation!

-Scott

re: .10

The clear vinyl sounds like just what i'm looking for to wrap my 
screens in for the winter (makes storm windows out of them). I hate 
using the poly as I can't see out.  But Littleton's a bit far for me
(I live near worcester) - could you post exactly what you bought, and 
Ill post where I find it when I do.  thanx	/j

    
    re: 3M goo
    
    I put the 3M stuff up in the late fall (same time that storm windows
    go up) and take it off in the spring (when the windows come down).
    I haven't had too much trouble with the goo, maybe because the stuff
    isn't up too long.  But it did leave a tackiness on a couple of
    the windows.  
    
    I put the tape on the woodwork which is painted, so I didn't want to 
    use paint thinner or turpentine for obvious reasons.  But I did use 
    some alcohol.  Put a small amount on some cotton and gently rub the 
    tacky/gooey area.  If there is enough residue, the alcohol will make 
    it roll up to a black ball (like rubber cement) that you can pick off 
    easy enough.  A bit time-consuming if you have a lot of windows,
    but it hasn't damaged the paint yet!
    
   	Conni
    

    RE 12. Capitol has a store in Worcester,they should have it.
    
    	Steve
    
    

re: 12

How about spags?  I know they sell the opaque stuff for REAL cheap, what 
about the clear stuff?

-mark

    My house is 64 years old and has wooden storm windows.
    On the top of each window are two pieces of hardware
    which mount onto two pieces of hardware on the top of
    the window frames on the house.  One of the pieces
    attached to the house broke off and I am looking for
    a replacement.  Do you know of any place that carries
    hardware for these style of wooden storm windows?  I have
    seen side mounting hardware by not this type.  
    
    Thank you for your help.
    Sue

    I cannot say this for sure, but I would think that any "good" hardware
    store should have the hangers you are looking for (if not the exact
    part, at least a close replacement).
     
    If your local hardware/discount/bradlee's look-a-like (e.g. Hammar
    Hardward in Nashua) doesn't have it, try to find an 'older', less
    modern store that has "everything" somewhere in the place and people
    who know what they have.
                                                             
    -Bob

    The WANT ADVERTISER for the week of Oct. 14-20 has a couple of listings
    of antique shutters on page 159. It may be possible that the mounting
    brackets are included.If you can't find a copy, send me mail at
    KRYPTN::MCWILLIAMS and I will send you a copy of the page with the
    address and phone number.
    
    	Steve
    

    While we're on the topic of storm windows, is it better to get
    the kind of storm window that goes outside or inside you current
    window?
    
    How much should a storm window cost?  Any recommendations for
    storm window/door people in the Marlboro/Framingham area?
    
    -al

    
    Acton (Mass.) Supply on Rte. 27 carries storm window hardware.
                  
                  
    Does anyone know of a local source for wooden combination storm/screen
    windows? 
    
    I understand that there is a brand of these called Brosco(?).
    
    

    Sommerville Lumber sells Brosco windows.  I don't know much about
    Brosco windows though.
    

     BROSCO is a large local distributor of building materials. They
    may put their name on some items but they do not make anything.
    
    					Kenny

    Brosco does do millwork.  For example, they will take Morgan
    doors, hang them, and sell them as a prehung door.  They are
    like Rivco.
    Sommerville lumber sells Brosco.
    

    I found it !  (I originated the inquiry in .0)
    
    Thanks to many of you who responded and especially Lou Raymond in
    Springfield who sent me a sample of a material he has used along
    with a detail drawing of how to build a frame for it.
    
    I dropped into Moore's in Littleton, MA yesterday and they have
    just what I need.  It's called FLEX-O-PANE and comes in wo thicknesses
    (5 MIL or 11 MIL) and two widths (36" or 48").  It comes on a roll
    and is very clear, flexible and should last several seasons when
    exposed to the elements.
    
    FLEX-O-PANE can be bought by the foot or by the roll.  It's cheaper
    per foot if you need enough to use up a roll (75 ft.)  The price
    at Moore's for a 75 ft. rool of 5 MIL, 36" wide is $49.00 which
    comes to about $.65/ft.  I priced the same stuff at Mass Hardware
    in Waltham and they want $1.19/ft. when purchaced by the foot.
    
    Thanks again everyone.
    
    Jim
    
    

   Sue,

   Our house is about the same age, so it had those clips to hold the
   wooden storm windows.  During renovation, I unfortunately removed
   them and threw them away.  However, this weekend I found 2 clips.
   If want them, they are yours.


   Mark

    

    Hi Mark,
    
    Thank you, I was able to find them at Acton Supply as recommended
    in an earlier note.  Did you replace your wooden storms with
    combination storm/screen?  I'm curious as i've thought of doing
    that myself.  What kind did you get?
    
    Sue
    

    This is a rather basic series of storm window questions:
    
    1.	What causes storm windows too "fog up" (i.e. get droplets of
    	moisture/water all over them) on cold mornings?  I presume it
    	has something to do with air leakage?
    
    2.	Can anything (relatively minor and inexpensive) be done about
    	it?  
    
    Thanx,
    LZP
    

     The rule of thumb for windows with storms that fog up is:
    
    If the storm window fogs up, then your inside window is leaking too
    much. (very common)
    
    If the inside window fogs up but not the storm, then your storm window
    leaks too much.
    
    					Kenny

Sue,

Well our house had wooden storms on the first floor windows, aluminum
storms on the second floor windows and no storms on any window on the
north side of the house.  Since about 50% of the window sashs were in
very poor condition and we planned to move several windows, we decided
to replace all the windows.

I did shop around and look at Anderson and Pella (I never saw the
Marvin windows that have gotten alot of press in this notesfile).  Both
Anderson and Pella seemed expensive so I looked into Harvey windows.
The construction differences seemed minimal, but the cost was much less.
Also, the guarantee is only 10 years (not 20 like Anderson provides).
Anyway, I bought complete replacement windows with double pane sashes
that have a 1/2" air space.  I also had the windows made with the three
track storm window built in so it was one unit.

Installation was $35 per window, so I decided to do it myself.  It takes
about 1 hour to remove the old sashes and weights, prepare the window
opening, and install the window unit.


Mark

    

    The problem may also be that you do not have enought ventilation.
    I have a similar problem.  I have new (2 years old) thermo
    pane sash and wooden storm windows.  The attic is insulated
    with 9 or 12inch fiberglass bats, but there was no ventilation
    in the attic.  This weekend I opened up the two windows in
    the attic to provide ventilation and I now have much less
    condensation.  Everything I have read says that for a given
    amount of insulation you must have a certain amount of ventilation.
    
    Sue
    

    Can you folks tell me the pros and cons of making "storm windows"
    out of plexiglas?
    
    Currently our porch has 14 "storm windows" made with 6mil poly (wrapped
    around 3/4" stock, so we get a double pane effect). There is a separate
    set of 14 screens.
    
    The 6mil stuff tears occasionally and is kind of "milky" although
    the box says "clear".
    
    Would plexi-glass be "clearer?
    What does Spag's -or anybody else sell it for per sq foot? (a roll
    of 6mil poly 100' x 8' cost $16.99 in Spags couple of yrs ago)
    Is it available in sheets as large as say 4' x 4'6"?
    How easy is it to cut, oneself?
    How to attach to the wooden frames?
    Good idea?
    
    			herb

    I think it would cloud over time; and scratch.  When I priced plexi-
    glass for shelves, the cost was outrageous -
    
    	8 in. x 48 in. x 3/4 in.   four of them cost apprx $75.00
    
    I went with wood...
    
    Dwight

    
    	Plexiglass IS very expensive, usually double or more, the price
    of a piece of glass the same size (1/8 thickness).  It will scratch
    eventually, but under normal use this woouldn't be detrimental for
    a very long time.  Plexiglass is not unbreakable though.  It WILL
    crack if banged on enough, and especially in winter becomes less
    resilient.  (ie. don't throw snowballs at it)
    	It is not hard to cut, and you can use a regular utility knife
    to score it, or some companies make special cutters that you can
    buy.  If you support it properly, (underline PROPERLY) you can cut
    it with a circular saw, table saw, jigsaw, etc.  If you cut it by
    hand you want to make sure that you score it deep enough to get
    a good clean snap out of it, unlike glass which is only scored once.
    
    	Jon

    I have heard enuf. It is a bad idea for *my* application
    
    
    			thnx for rapid response
    			herb

    Sears (in the catalog) sells 8 mil vinyl (not poly) which is as clear
    as glass.  Might hold up better and is not cloudy.
    
    Marty
     

    ... thats what windows have been made of for a long time. Doesn{
    get cloudy, is inexpensive, not hard to cut.
    

    re <why not use GLASS>
    
    Yup. Long range that's what I have decided to do.
    Thot possibly plexiglass might be an interim solution, but they
    are way too expensive, according to earlier comments.
    
    
    		herb

    
    My three year old home has brown combination storm windows of
    very good quality.  Unfortunately, my better half does not like
    the brown (to be honest I don't either).  Since my wife seems to
    hate the color more than me, she's agreed to paint all 18 storm
    windows.  Any advise/cautions would be appreciated regarding the
    proper paint and preparations to use.
    
    I've been told to use a solid base latex (is this like any other
    normal latex paint?) by salesperson for gutters/storms.  I've also
    been told to use any latex (the instructions on the can support
    this). I've also been told to not do it as I'm asking for trouble
    as chipping and peeling will occur.
    
    Since the windows are fairly new, I believe they are baked enamel.
    ANY IDEAS??
    
    STEVE
     

    1412
    SORRY....THE COMBO STORMS MENTIONED IN 1412 ARE ALUMINUM IF YOU
    HAVEN'T GUESSED BY NOW.
    
    STEVE
    

    
    
    	 Latex paint doesn't stick to aluminum very well. Latex paint
    only likes to stick to 2 things, (1) bare wood (2) other latex paint.
    If your really set on painting the windows try an oil-based enamel
    paint that is suitable for use on metal, it may be a little messy
    but it will look better than chipped latex. Also, DO NOT get any
    paint in tracks of the frame (it sticks like glue.)
    
    
    Glenn  	

Does anyone have experience with the after-market storm windows that
fit inside the existing window?  I have metal casement windows with
recessed frame. I have seen storm windows that work as follows:  you
screw the frame of the storm window inside the frame of the casement
window, and then slide the storm panes into their frame.  I've seen
these for as little as $40/single window. 

My two questions:

1) Is it really possible to seal the frame of the storm tight to the 
frame of the casement (I assume not doing so defeats the purpose).

2) I have encountered one or two places who are willing to order the 
right size storm, come to the house, and screw in the frame (install 
them).  I'd like to order the storms and screw them in myself in order
to save $ - any idea where to order them from? 

any other ideas are appreciated as well	/j

    My experience is that clear silicone caulk will seal just about
    anything.  It is yucky to play with though.  I don't know about
    such stork windows but they sound like a pretty good idea.

    My father has made storm window for old (30yrs+) steel sliding 
    windows that sound similar to what your are talking about.  His
    are made form plexi glass and are installed on the inside of the
    window.  If I remember correctly uses square stock, 1 X 1, on the
    inside all around the window frame, leaving a space between the
    existing glass and the 1 x 1.  The plexi glass is then cut to 
    size and slipped into the window.  I think he then uses 3/4in
    round for the outside molding, this is screwed into place.  He
    has been using these windows for 12+yrs with great success, they
    work very well.  So I would imagine that the type of storms you
    discribed are similar and should work okay.

I've been offered 3 types of windows...

1) individual famed 'panes' that clip up tight over each window pane 
(one replaces the current screen)
2) a framed, perhaps multipane storm that fits into the casement
(leaving 2-3" between it and the window.  Its a felt-backed 'clip-in'
type w/aluminum frame (plexiglass) 

3) a sealed-in slider similiar to 2) above

any idea which approach is best?

question:  for a storm to be worthwhile HOW GOOD DOES IT HAVE TO SEAL?

I thought it had to be airtight - but then, someone told me that an
'insulating' drape or blind does just as good job.  can someone 
straighten out how an non-airtight seal can act as a storm?

Has anyone heard of AAA All-weather aluminum associates or silton 
glass in framingham?

    Don't know which is best, however, on being airtight ....
    
    I thought they had to be airtight also.  I installed aluminum storms
    on my windows after spending one winter without. Brrrrr..  The house
    was built in 69 so they weren't too concerned with energy efficiency
    back then.  In fact the previous owner moved out to all electric
    what with the promise of cheap electricity when Seabrook comes on
    line.  I digress.
    
    The windows have weep holes on the bottom.  Very small holes that
    allow water to drain but still maintain a 'dead' air space.  I did
    a good job of installing by caulking all the way around.  Gave a
    real good seal and they were warm.
    
    The moisture that is trapped between condenses on the outside storm
    and drains down to the sill where it sits and in my case causes
    rot and carpenter ants in the picture windows.
    
    Like everything else in life it's a compromise between an ideal
    dead air space and alowing the house to breath.  The only way to
    do it is manufacture the glass in a vacuum chamber so that the dead
    air space has no moisture.  Now how do open the screen ??

    
    in order for a storm window to be effective, you do need a fairly
    
    good space of dead air between the two glass pieces. as mentioned
    
    before life is full of compromises.  in this case the moisture 
    
    needs a place to escape, therefore the weep holes in the bottom
    
    allow the gathered water to run out.  DON'T CAULK THESE HOLES.
    
    the penalty is having to replace the window sill.  this is painful.
    
    
    the other caution that needs to be mentioned is :: while silicone
    
    caulking will give you a very good seal, don't plan on having
    
    to take the unit out.  let me explain,  several years ago, i needed
    
    to remove the storm door on the back door, to paint the trim.
    
    why i'll never know, but i used a silicone based caulk when i 
    
    was thru and put it back up.  this past fall i decided to replace
    
    the rear wooden door with a steel insulated door.  in order to do
    
    this i had to remove the storm door.  I HAD TO CHISEL IT OFF THE
    
    FRAME. the silicone caulk had done such a good job of adhering
    
    to the trim that some of the trim came off with the caulking.
    
    i really didn't care, because the new door was prehung and had
    
    trim of its own.  but if you were to do this with a window
    
    and need to remove it, for maintenance you'd have a struggle 
    
    on your hands.  for these aplications its best to use an
    
    architectural grade caulking name brand i'm familiar with
    
    is "rely on"  its a linseed based caulking that will give an
    
    adequate seal, but will part company with the trim come maintenance
    
    time.
    
    
    hope this helps.
    
    jim.
    
    

How big an airspoce do you 'need' for storms? (thermopane windows
and/or old-style exterior storms use as little as 1/4", right? 

I ask because I'm leaning towards the storms that mount tightly over 
each individual window pane, as opposed to one that fills the window 
frame.

2ns question:  If the storm seal is airtight, or close to it, how does 
significant moisture get in between the panes?

    re -1
    question # 2...how does that air get in there anyway??
    
    	First...you trap some there when you put on the outside storm.
    	Second..air gets into the space from inside your house--warm
    		moist air meets cold storm window with no drain holes...
    		
    Ric

>    question # 2...how does that air get in there anyway??
>    
>    	First...you trap some there when you put on the outside storm.
>    	Second..air gets into the space from inside your house--warm
>    		moist air meets cold storm window with no drain holes...
>    		
yes, but....the inside storm window shouldn't be very cold - there 
should be a gradient across the air space - thought that was the main 
idea of using a storm (or am i missing something)/j

    Sorry for the confusion.  You are correct that if you use an
    INSIDE storm window then that won't be very cold.  In this case
    the condensation will happen on your regular window...this is the
    same type of effect that you see in the summer when you have a cold
    glass filled with your favorite beverage...the outside gets coated
    with water which condenses out of the air.
    	You are also correct in that there is a gradient across the
    air space.  However, the air in direct contact with the outside
    window is cooled very rapidly causing the condensation.
    
    Ric

    A 1/4" gap really isn't enough.  Air space should be at least 1/2" 
    to do much good; 3/4" is even better.  Much over 1" though and you 
    start to get convenction currents and the efficiency starts to go 
    down again.

Assabet Glass (hudson) just came by to look at my problem, made the
following (reasonable?) suggestion to stem the draft and heat loss in
through my single-plane metal-frame casement windows.... 

Run wood moulding around the inside of the casement.  put stick-down 
magnetic strip on the inside face of the wood.

Take a piece of plexiglass in a magnet-backed plastic frame, and stick 
it to the moulding frame.  air space = ~ 2.5" -3". 

Alternately, run the magnetic strip around the inside window frame 
itself, forget the moulding, and stick the plexiglass right over the 
whole window (air space = 5") (this is cheaper).

anyone tried either - gotten any good luck from it?

    I have a skylight in our master bedroom, after the first winter,
    we decided that we needed a covering over the skylight, since there
    was a cold draft from the skylight.
    I found a kit at Building 19 1/5 that had a thin sheet of plastic
    (about an 1/8th of an inch thick) with a plastic frame with a magnetic
    strip attached. It also had a metal strip that you atteched to the
    window frame for the magnets to attached to. It worked great. However,
    the plastic window being so thin crack during storage over the summer.
    
    I found a place that sold the same kit for $ 19.95 (Robinsons in
    Hudson, MA). I did not want to pay that kind of money for something
    that would last one season, soooo I went to Coldwells in Berlin
    and found thin Plexiglass (about 1/4 inch). Cut it to the size I
    needed using a Jigsaw (very slowly). I found magnetic tape at K-Mart
    in 3 foot lengths, which I attached to the plexiglass. I put some
    cloth tape around the sharp edge of the plexiglass. And now I have
    a much stronger window for my skylight. 
    
    Total cost?
     $ 20.00 with enough plexiglass left to cover the hatchway to my
    attic and two small basement windows.
    
    Ken

	Hi,

	I was wondering if anyone out there has tried those 3M
	window and patio door plastic insulated kits.

	The kind that use a piece of clear plastic to cover the
	window or door then you use a hair dryer to smooth out
	an tighten the plastic,this is supposed to stop any cold
	air and drafts from comming into the house from the outside.
	(shrink wrap?)

	I notice they sell kits for both inside and outside the windows.

	If you have used them in the past can you tell me if they do
	work and are they worth the effort to install them?
	Is it as easy as it is on tv? Is it messy?

	How do they attach these to the doors or windows???

	If they use tape,is it a mess to take off when its time to
	take them off? I want to try these but I don't want pieces
	of tape stuck to my new padio doors come spring time when
	its time to take the plastic off.

	Do generic kits work as well as the 3M/Scotch brand????

	Thanks in advance for any input.


	Ps I couldn't find this in any of the pass topics,
	   moderator please move if needed.

	Wayne
                                                          

    I've used the 3M kits several times.  Yes it works.  Yes it's
    easy.  Yes, it's easy to remove.
    
    They're best at stopping drafts - the insulating value is there too
    because of the dead air space, but killing the drafts is the biggest
    benefit.
    
    I've had no problems with the window kits - it's so easy...  Haven't
    used a storm-door kit.
    
    The way it works is a special double-faced tape is first applied around
    the door/window.  It works best if the tape is applied around the
    outside edges of the moulding so that the film wraps over the edge, but
    if you have to stick the film on flat, that's ok.  Once the tape is
    applied, you peel off the paper from the other side, and lay the film
    on it, trying to get it as smooth as possible (small wrinkles are
    expected, avoid large folds.)  Then take the hair dryer to it - 
    the film shrinks and tightens up.  This step takes 5-10 minutes for
    an average-size window.  Then just take scissors and trim off the
    excess.
    
    To remove, just peel off the film and then peel the tape - I've never
    had a problem with the tape harming finishes.
    
    I recommend buying the largest kit you can find.  The tape is sold
    separately - don't substitute another kind.
    
    					Steve

This is a perfect example of where it's useful to have a new note, even though
the subject has been discussed before.  I saw this topic, and immediately
write-locked the note, because I KNEW that this subject had been discussed to
death before.  But - there is no entry anywhere in 1111, not under windows, not
under insulation, not even under curtains_shutters_storms.  There are a couple
of likely prospects for where the shrink-wrap discussions are buried (479,
607), but there is no note specifically about it.  So have at the discussion
here (again), and maybe the next person looking for this info will have
something to find. 

Paul 

      -< We will now continue with our regularly scheduled programming >-

    I've used it for about 5 years now.  There's nothing like it.  Not
    only does it help block drafts and help keep out the cold, but if
    you do it right, you can't even see it.  Once it's stretched, it's
    clear as can be.  One thing I have found is that if you use a hair
    dryer that's less than 1200 watts, you may plan on spending a long
    time.
    
    Chris D.

    The tape does get hard to remove if it stays on for a year or two 
    (I left the film on a couple of windows I never open for a couple
    of years, and had problems when I tried to take it off), but I 
    think if you take the film and tape off in the spring, it's no problem.  

      I've used both the 3M brand as well as the lesser known brand
    (sorry, I can't remember the name for the life of me).  The 3M brand
    is thicker than the others and costs significantly more.  In this
    case, I don't think thickness is a benefit since the main purpose
    is to stop the drafts and they are both excellent at that.  I haven't
    had 100% success with either tho.  It depends on the finish of the
    window frame (moulding) that you attach the tape to. I like the
    lesser known, less expensive one because it shrinks so readily and
    is significantly cheaper.  The non-3M brand costs about $1 per window
    at Spags.  It may seem like you are doing a terrible job because
    it will be loose when you first put it on and may not even go on 
    straight but as soon as you put the blow dryer to it, poof, it's
    perfect!  They really are worth every penny. Also, as said earlier, 
    they are totally transparent. The only time you see them is if you 
    see a glare off them.

    -Jim

    I just installed a channel-lock vinyl interior storm.  Instead of double-
    sided tape, the plastic film is held in place by a permanently-installed
    two-piece plastic strip.  One piece is attached to the window frame with
    an adhesive backing.  The second piece snaps into a channel in the first
    piece.  The film goes between the two pieces.  In the spring, you just
    remove the snap-in piece and store the film away.  In my case I was using
    a non-heat-shrink vinyl film; I assume you can't really reuse the heat-
    shrink stuff once it's shrunk.  It was relatively easy to apply.  I've
    got about 23 more to do (sigh).

    One problem I had to resolve was what to do about the window shades.
    Obviously, you want to have the shades on the inside of the interior
    storm.  I'm going to mount the strips on the piece of wood that holds
    in the sash, right next to the sash, and mount the shades inside that.
    Fortunately, those pieces of wood (what are they called?) are wide enough.

    You can get kits for channel-lock storms for $4 a piece (normal-sized
    windows; more for big windows) from:

	EASY Buying Co-op
	354B Waverly Street
	Framingham, MA  01701
	(508) 875-4921

    They also sell all kinds of weatherstripping (the wood and vinyl kind
    is really good) and pipe insulation.
	
    You can also get the channels and various kinds of film from a mail-order
    place called The Energy Arsenal.  I'll try to post the address soon.

    My $.02 worth.....

    I have used them for past 5-6 years, absolutley ove them for windows 
without shades to pull down, etc. They go in my livingroom/diningroom every 
year and the drapes hide the edges. They are invisible when done correctly.

    One hint, if you own a heat gun, that resets your time to install to 
about 15-20 seconds per window. Keep the gun moving and the shrink wrap 
just about withers under the shot of hot air.

    Do have the plastic wrap around a corner on each side. It does not hold 
well if the pulling pressure is directly on the adhesive strip. I messed up 
one year trying to get it to hold on the window sill. Now I just wrap it 
under the sill and it holds fine. One more hint, introduce your pet to it 
BEFORE they jump up on the window sill. A cat might geta real shock and I 
know my dog has been totally spooked by hitting it with her claws and 
hearing it break. That certainly broke her of that habit for a few minutes!

    Repairs can be done by applying the sticky tape around the tear and 
placing a new piece over the hole. Heat it carefully to keep it from 
tearing open from the heat.

    For rooms with shades inside the frames, you will probably have to go 
with the outsider kit. I have not figured out a way to work it around a 
shade inside the window frame.

    	Vic H

    I've used both 3M and other brand (StormKing??) for my Atrium doors.
    They're very effective at reducing heat loss (cold infultration)
    through such large spaces. 3M seems to come out smoother than
    other brands, but both are effective.
    
    Dave

RE .6:

>    You can also get the channels and various kinds of film from a mail-order
>    place called The Energy Arsenal.  I'll try to post the address soon.

Energy Arsenal
107 Industrial Drive
P.O. Box 2792
Ivyland, PA  18974

800-325-2826

    
    How does shrink wrap work on the OUTSIDE of a window?
    I have a few old windows (with no storms) that I would like to 
    use it on if it would hold up to the rain storms.
    
    -tm
    

       I think there are seperate kits for outdoor use. I've never used
    them, only the indoor version.
                                              Denny

    I put the outdoor stuff on all of my west facing windows/slider.
    I think its alittle easier than the indoor wrap because you don't
    have to shrink it. The first time I used it I was worried that I
    wouldn't be able to pull out all the the folds/wrinkles. However
    after the first sunny warm day it looked pretty good. If you install
    a slider sized piece on a windy/breezy day you'll need help.

    Hope some of you DIYers can help answer my very basic question about
    storm windows.  What does one look for when selecting them?  What
    are good features and what should one avoid?
    
    The reason I ask is my house, built around 1900, has only wooden
    storm windows.  Having painted, repainted, rerepainted, hauled up,
    hauled down, for almost twenty years, I've decided there are better
    things to do with my time.  
    
    The local storm window dealer sells only one brand, so there's nothing
    to compare with.  His sample looked good enough, but it was only
    a small model.  It's possible to miss seeing good/bad features when
    inspecting a miniature.
    
    Color is no problem, as the trim is all dark brown.  Esthetics is
    a problem, as I do not wish to mess up the outside view of some
    nifty old windows.  
    
    One last question (not greedy am I), can storm windows be installed
    in the northeast in the winter?  Or must they be caulked and thus
    installed only when temperatures are higher?
    
    Tell me all I need to know and am not afraid to ask about storm
    windows.  Many thanks.
    
    	Marlene
    

    I used the 3M version for years.  Other kinds work ok for the plastic,
    but I found that the tape just isn't as good.  The 3M you can put
    on the face of the window sill AS LONG AS YOU WASH AND DRY IT FIRST.
    It will work fine that way.  Other makes still won't work this way
    when you go shrink it.  Stick with 3M.
    
    Shades are a problem.  I did find that you can do them if you run
    the plastic just behind the shade roll at the top, and bring it
    out to the front below the roll (make sense?).  It takes some patience
    and time, but it can be done to keep the shade working.
    
    Another problem that I had was that the tape pealed off the paint
    when I took it off.  But it was an old house with old paint...
    
    It's biggest benefit is in stopping drafts!  We used to almost have
    a breeze through our apartment, which we eliminated.  The house
    was so much warmer after.  Not only was it warmer, but if felt warmer
    at the same temp. without drafts.
    
    Peter
    

We used the shrink wrap on the windows in our apartment.  I all looked great for
about a 1/2 hour.  Our landlord had heavily shallacked (sp) our woodwork and
when the plastic shrunk up, the taped just pulled to varnish off and we had to
go over it with regular tape.  It is still fairly loose and wrinkled.  I think
that we may have pulled it too tight while attaching it to the tape so it didn't
have any give for stretching.  So don't pull tight before heating.

We'll do better next time.  Experience!

I don't know how much good it has done because this is our first winter in this
apt.

Good luck.

I trust you've looked in 495 and 556, which I found by looking at 1111.19.

The two types of storms I know about are:

- modern aluminum combination storms, which are permanently attached to the
  house.  Two windows and one screen slide up and down in tracks.  You get
  to choose between having both stormed; top stormed and bottom screened;
  and top screened and bottom stormed.  Very convenient unless they jam.

- old-fashioned panes in wooden frames, which you attach to the house in
  fall, and take down in spring.  Time-consuming and maintenance-intensive.

Fortunately, our turn-of-the-century house already had combination storms,
so we didn't hesitate to install more when we built our addition.  They
aren't authentic, but they sure are convenient.  The house has aluminum
siding anyway, so what the hell.

You need to decide whether combination storms would spoil the appearance of
your house, and if so trade off the convenience against the appearance.

If I've missed the point of your question, please ask again.

    On an old house, you may not have the lip needed to screw the storm
    window onto.  The ones you may need are Eastern style.  These mount
    on the outside of the window frames.  On newer windows, there is
    a lip.  You can use the Western style on these.  These will sit
    recessed(sp) in the window frame.  That's what I found out when put 
    up new storms on my last house.
    
    While we're on the subject, what is a double track?  My guess is
    that it's a fixed screen on bottom, a fixed storm on top, and one
    sliding storm for the bottom.  Correct???
    
    Chris D.

    My double track is a fixed storm on the top, one track for the inside
    storm, one track for the screen.  It makes sense.   You rarely move
    the top glass, except to clean it.
    
    Elaine

    
    I've got some of these "western" style storms on my house.  I've
    had to remove several of them.  They appeared to be embedded in
    putty on the inside of the window frame.  (over 30 years ago)
    Should I reset them using putty or is there anything better?  I
    hesitate to use silicone caulking since it's pretty permanent stuff.
    
    What have others out there used?
    
    Phil

    
    Marlene, let me first attempt to answer your questions, before
    I ask one of my own:
    
    >> Esthetics is a problem, as I do not wish to mess up the 
    >> outside view of some nifty old windows. 
    
    I have not seen any combination storm windows which look as good 
    as the old-fashioned wooden ones.  The one suggestion I do have, 
    if you decide to go with the combination storms, is to make
    sure to get storm windows that match your trim (which you say is
    brown).  The shiny unfinished aluminum ones really stand out, and
    detract from the rest of the windows.
    
    >> One last question (not greedy am I), can storm windows be installed
    >> in the northeast in the winter?  Or must they be caulked and thus
    >> installed only when temperatures are higher?
    
    That depends on what kind of caulk you use.  I have used Silicone
    caulk in low (but above freezing) temperatures without any problem.
    Check the directions on the caulk you buy.  I would keep the tubes 
    of caulk inside the house when you aren't using them, though.
    

    RE: .5, I've used GE Silicone Caulk in below freezing weather with
    much success. The drawback is the cost ($4-5/tube), but it worked
    great.
    
    Eric

re: .6   

I have made storms, but never with glass.  You may want to ask in the 
woodworking notesfile... I'm sure someone there can help you, and if 
I do this right, you should be able to press KP7 to add it...

Bob

    
    I seem to have found the answer to my own question about setting
    storm windows.  While picking up some electrical do-hickeys I happened
    on something called "Plas-Dux".  It is a nonhardening, waterproof
    adhesive compound.  The package says it can be used for sealing
    electrical conduits, service boxes, underground cable ducts, air
    ducts and aluminum storm windows.  It only costs $1.69 a slab (Spag's).
    
    Phil

    
    I have read all the notes on storm windows in this file and still
    have an unanswered question.  How do you measure a window for the
    purpose of adding a strom window (aluminum combo.)?  Is there one
    standard method of measuring recognized by all storm window dealers?
    
    Thanks in advance.

    Call the dealer you are going to use to make the window and ask him.
    That's what we did when we added a new aluminum storm window about 7-8
    years ago. He told me how to make the measurements, I gave the
    measurements to him, he made it, i installed it, works perfectly. 
    Don't remember what the instructions were.

    if you are adding enough to make it worth their while, have the
    window manufacturer take the measurements.  If they make a mistake,
    they eat the window.

re .2:
>    if you are adding enough to make it worth their while, have the
>    window manufacturer take the measurements.  If they make a mistake,
>    they eat the window.

Wouldn't that cause

			a pane in the stomach?

    There are two basic ways of putting on aluminum combination storm
    windows: "eastern" and "western".  The "eastern" method mounts the
    storm window on the outside face of the trim boards around the
    window.  For this kind of mounting, you'd measure the inside
    dimensions of the trim opening, I think.
    The "western" method recesses the windows inside the trim.  Most
    new primary windows these days are designed to accept "western"
    mounting of aluminum combination storms.  Older houses, with flat
    trim, generally have combination storms mounted the "eastern" way.
    I've never owned a house with "western" mounted storm windows so
    I can't tell you why one way may be possible when the other isn't.
    
    Best thing to do, if you're ordering enough windows to get the
    attention of the window company, is to have them come out and
    measure, or at least come look at what you have.  I had the company
    come measure for mine when I got them; I looked on it as cheap
    insurance to have them do the measuring, so it would be their fault
    if they didn't fit.  But it really isn't that big a deal.  

re: .6 (making storms)

At minimum, you'll need a good router with a table, but probably
you should have a shaper to do this.  You'll need to make the 
frames so that they accept the glass on the inside, fit 
together on the ends (some kind of style/Rail design) and also
fit into the wood frames to hold them to the house.  Not a 
small job, but it could be done.


If your local high-school has an Adult Education class, check
to see if they have a cabnetmaking class.  If so, they probably
have a shaper, and thus all you would need to do is buy the 
knives (cutters) to do your particular work.  (Newton does
have a very nice shaper and a pretty good cabinetmaking 
class in case you live near ther.  You don't have to be 
a resident to take advantage of it)


If you take one of  your old storms apart,  you'll see pretty
much what has to be done.  It's not that hard of a job, IF you
have the right tools


-bill

I've used this stuff in our hosue for the last 5 years, and love
it.  You need to make sure that you clean the taping surface
very well for it to stick well.

Also, an "across the tape" pull is much better than when it
pulls in a perpendicular direction, as the area that is held
is much greater.  Put the tape on a flat surface and have the 
film go flat across the tape, IN THE DIRECTION THAT IT SHRINKS.


Shades are  a pain, but you can put up hooks to hold them 
on the outside of the film.  I had once thought of putting the 
film on wood frames tht fit inside of the window frames to allow 
the shades to work, but gave up as it would be a pain to make them 
fit right.


-bill

    
    I hang aluminum storms on the side and it is NO big deal. You
    measure the same way for both. The difference is that when you
    order you specify (as was mentioned in earlier note) Eastern or
    Western mount. Eastern type mounts right on the very outside
    facure (sp?) board. But in a western type window frame there is
    another lip or 3/4x3/4 board inward from the very outside facure
    board. The point is that if you mount a storm window on the very
    outside of a window frame that has an inner lip (western window)
    i.e., if you mount a storm window eastern when it should have been
    mounted western you won't be able to pull the windows out from the
    inside to clean them or whatever. 
    
    Hope this is clear and helps out.
    Bob
    
    

    
    I forgot to say that you can also order a storm window by a 
    TIP to TIP measurement. When you do it this way the total storm
    size is what you order it to be and the company doesn't add 1/4"
    for eastern and subtract 1/4" for western.
    
    Bob

     RE: .10  
     
     > At minimum, you'll need a good router with a table, but probably
     > you should have a shaper to do this.  You'll need to make the
     > frames so that they accept the glass on the inside, fit together
     > on the ends (some kind of style/Rail design) and also fit into
     > the wood frames to hold them to the house.  Not a small job, but
     > it could be done. 
     
     Uh ... I think, you are picturing something a little fancier
     than I had in mind.
     
     The storm windows I have hang flat against the the outside
     trim on the windows.  They don't fit inside the window frame.
     I'm talking about the old-fashioned storms that are found
     on 100 year old houses.
     
     
     
     
     

    Re:  past few that discuss constructing wooden storms
    
    If you can find old storms windows slightly larger than your windows,
    you can trim off some of the wood around the edges.  We have a large,
    single-pane picture window (why did they ever do that) that is now
    covered with three trimmed wooden storms salvaged from the dump.
    
    With some more effort, you can discombobulate windows, cut down
    the glass, cut down the wooden rails, and put the whole thing back
    together again to your specifications.  
    
    If anyone wants to try either approach, you are welcome to my
    collection of miscellaneous wooden storms windows out in the barn.
    Just send me your dimensions and I'll check if there's something
    larger that you can whittle down.
    
    	Marlene
    

I just built a set of storms, using plastic however, not glass.  It's
in this file somewhere, but thats besides the point...

You don't need any real fancy stuff, I good power saw is all.  Radial
arm or table saw makes it faster, and a dado blade, faster still, but
if you don't have access to ANY stationary equipment, even a hand saw
(power, circular) can do the job.

Or you can use a router with a straight bit.

Or you can use chisels... 8^)

Simple half-lap joints will work fine.   

The only difference between any of these methods is labor.  Given proper
patience and technique  (where can I buy some of that?) all methods will
produce equal results.

Bob

    I need a replacement storm window pane.  This is the kind which
    is just a piece of glass with about an inch of metal around the
    edges and two latches at the bottom corners.  It fits into a
    three-channeled metal frame which was screwed on to the outside
    of the window.  Does Spag's make these?  Is there a store in the
    Spag's/Shrewsbury/Northboro/Westboro vicinity that does?
    
       Mitch

    
    Why not take it to a glass company to be repaired, they put a new
    pane of glass in it.
    
    

    re .1:
    
    The frame has pretty much disintegrated and all I have left is the
    bottom piece which is in sad shape too.
    
      Mitch

    I get mine done at Demers Glass in Lowell.  It may not be in the
    location that you want but they have done all right by me.
    wa

    
    have you tied Aluminum City on Route 20 at the Assebet River in
    Northborough?? They may be able to help.

    I looked throughout the file, in search of a note which had been
    placed about this topic.  I couldn't find it, so please allow this
    to be a new topic, or move it to the appropriate location.
    
    I have an older house (circa 1901).  A number of years ago the previous
    owner had installed storm windows all around.  I believe this was
    about 9 years ago.  When I took one window apart in one of the
    bedrooms, I found that the storm window rattled some.  What can
    I do to tighten this up so I don't get a rattle?  I assume that
    this means I am also not getting as tight a seal as I should.
    
    I would really (really) like to avoid replacing the storms.  They
    seem to be in good condition other than the rattle.  I don't believe
    this is happening on most of the others, although I can't honestly
    say I have checked them out.
    
    Any assistance here would be appreciated.
    
    Ed..
    

    I assume that they are aluminium storms and the windows themselves
    are loose in the channels in which they slide. If so, take one apart
    and look at what is already there for "snugness" and simply replace
    it.
    Otherwise if there is nothing to provide a good seal, you should
    look for a nylon or viny bead that will fit in the channel around
    the outside periphery of the glass frame. This should provide a
    quite sliding of the glass frame in the channel and reduce of not
    prevent the rattling. I would avoid rubber, or rubber-like materials
    because they can get stuck against the sometimes rough channels.
    The "bead" materials can be bought by the foot at good hardware
    stores.
    
    BM

    Thanks for the quick reply.  Yes, these are aluminum storms.  I
    have not ever checked out the channels to see what was in there.
     These are the standard style that you can take the window and screen
    out.  They are triple track - 1 "pane" of screen and 2 "panes" of
    glass (plexiglass?).
    
    If I understood you correctly, I should take the "panes" out and
    look in the channels.  There will likely be some kind of material
    in there that was acting as a buffer to tighten the windows and
    prevent the rattle.  Either this material is worn and no longer
    doing its' job, or it was never there to begin with.  In either
    case, I should use some kind of nylon or vinyl bead (similar to
    the stuff used to hold screening in the window?) in the channel.
    How would I hold the bead in the channel?  Is there some kind of
    glue?  Does it come with the bead?  Also, where would I find the
    bead - Grossmans? Builder's Square?
    
    Thanks for the help so far.
    
    Ed..
    

    If the storms are old there is a good chance that the vertical channels
    have started to spread apart and that the window are rattling in
    the tracks since the tracks are not as close together as they should
    be. A very crude fix which I have used with some success is to find
    two mounting screws, one on each side of the window, ideally at
    the mid point (i.e. top to bottom) and tie a piece of wire between
    them with enough tension to force the sides closer but not so tight
    as to pull out the screws. The wire is not actually attached to
    the frame at the tracks. It does however 'bend' around the frame
    on each side and adding tension should bring the sides closer.
    I did this as a 'hack' on my windows a couple of years ago and they
    still seem to be holding up. (Use aluminum wire). 
    
    Ron
    

    Re 2. That is exactly what I meant, and the material is as you guessed,
    sometimes used to hold screening in the screen frames. Try the larger
    hardware outlets, and barring that go to a storm-window/eavestrough
    type of manufacturer. If you cannot find the correct material, consider
    using a teflon tape on the flat portion of the glass frames to fill
    up the empty space between it and the channels. Teflon is tough
    and very slippery. Teflon tape should be available anywhere.
    
    BM

    
    I like to buy aluminum storm windows, dark color.  I've
    check local stores like Grossman, Sumerville, Wickes, Webber,
    Plywood, Moore's and none of them has it on stock.
    
    I like to buy one immediately because order takes four or five
    weeks and it will be too cold to install it then.
    
    Anyone one know where I can get one?
           
    
    Jason

    Where to you live and what size(s) do you need?
    

I believe Harvey Storms come in a dark brown color.  
In Nashua they are available at Beaulieu Chick 883-5822    

    Re .2
    
    Yes, they are available in dark brown; I bought two for a previous
    residence.  Harvey windows/doors are pretty generally available.
    Check the ol' yellow pages.
    
    pbm
    

    RE: .1
    
    I need one for size: 31x38
    one: 35x35
    And two unknown size.
    
    Jason

    I believe that RIVCO carries them in Nashua ... don't have the number
    handy, but can get it if you'd like.  Where do you live??
    
    Patty

What about non-enamel aluminum windows? Is it possible/recommended to paint 
these older generic aluminum windows? I saw some notes about painting 
aluminum siding, but wasn't sure if the answers could be directly applied 
(excuse the pun) to windows.

If these can be painted so:

1. What preparation is suggested (i.e. sanding, type of primer)?

2. Is there any particular type and/or brand of paint that is 
   appropriate to use?

3. Do you think it's WORTH the effort?  (We have a Queen Anne Victorian that
   we're planning to paint in multiple colors, and the pesky grey windows
   will definitely ruin the effect...).

Any/all comments/suggestions are welcome and appreciated!

Sue

    
    I just called RIVCO, they don't have it on stock.
    This is unbeliable.  Non of the stores has it in stock.
    I thought dark color storm window is very popular.
    Looks like I have to order.

    
    Hi Sue,
    
    I haven't had experience with this, but I would definitely try to
    paint them (unless you can afford new ones).  My suggestiong is
    to spray paint them with a metal primer (without the windows in
    them, of course), and then purchase an apropriately colored 
    spray enamel.  It doesn't really sound like a bad job.  The worst
    part is probably taking them down and putting them back up.
    Before painting, I would wash them well and perhaps wipe them
    with white vinegar (someone suggested this for hot air duct work).
    
    Good Luck,
    tm
    

    Take them down and wash them with T.S.P. and rinse well.
    Mine were brown enamel and I painted them antique white 
    with Rustoleum spray enamel. 2 coats and they were done. 
    I didn't bother with the storm windows themselves, only
    the frames. I didn't use a primer since there was no exposed
    bare metal. It worked.
    
    Ray

    
    I found a shop in Lowell, Guarantee Aluminum, give a good
    price to order one.   Cost only $31.99 for any color and
    size.

    I have a new house with double pane glass windows.  It has screens
    that mount outside, but no storms.  Everytime I mention that I'm
    thinking of adding double-track storm windows, I get the same response:
    "Don't you have double pane windows?".  Wouldn't storm windows help
    keep the heat in and cold out better than not using storm windows
    at all?  Besides, the screens I have s*%$ anyway.  They were cheaply
    made, don't fit snug (bees get in), and during high winds, sometimes
    blow off the house.  Is adding double track storms a waste of money?
    
    Chris D.

    
    I have triple track storms outside of double pane windows. No problems.
    You can tell the difference when you forget to put the storm down on a
    cold day and leave the screen in place. They do help insulate.
    
    CdH
    

    Along the same lines, we have pretty reasonable screens that do fit
    snugly.  They slide into clips at the top, and are held by latches at
    the bottom.
    
    Would it be easy and reasonable to get a single pane storm window in a
    frame identical to the screens, so that it installs the same way?  Or
    would we be better off getting real storms?
    
    The windows are four-year old double-pane Rivcos which are better than
    single panes, but don't seem nearly as good as a single pane combined
    with an ordinary storm window.
    
       Gary

    I have Anderson windows which have the screen attached with
    clips...sounds similar to Gary's (.16) setup with the RIVCOs.  Does
    anyone know if Anderson makes a storm window to replace the screens???
    Ric

     I was thinking of having the storms made too (re: .16) but I figured
    that means storing 17 screens in the winter and 17 windows in the
    summer.  I figure it's much more convenient with the double track
    storm windows.  I probably couldn't argue with you though that a
    good fitting single storm window may insulate better that a double
    or triple track, since there's no space that air may get in like
    between the top and the bottom panel.
    
    Chris D.

re Note 2820.17 by LANDO::RAYMOND:

>     I have Anderson windows which have the screen attached with
>     clips...sounds similar to Gary's (.16) setup with the RIVCOs.  Does
>     anyone know if Anderson makes a storm window to replace the screens???

        Yes, they do (for the double-hung line at least).

        What they sell is a triple-track storm and screen combination
        that is meant to permanently replace the screen unit.  You
        get triple glazing in the winter but only a half-size screen
        in the summer.

        Bob

    re: .19  I think .17 was talking about one piece storms that clip in
    the same way his screens do.
    
    I've decided to go with double track on all except 2 windows.  Those 2,
    the bathroom and one in the kitchen, I plan on installing triple track
    and have a screen made to replace the upper storm during the summer.  
    That way I can open the top and the bottom window to let air circulate.
    
    re: .17   There's a place in Lowell that makes screens and storms.  If
    you only have a couple of different size windows, I would bring a
    screen from each size with me and let them do the measurements they
    need.  That way if something doesn't fit right, it's their
    responsibility.
    
    Chris D.

    
    Re: upper and lower screens
    
    What's the point? Even with this setup you won't get any more screen
    area than you would with just one screen, unless you remove the inside
    windows entirely.
    
    CdH
    

    It helps after a shower to lower the top window a little.  Remember,
    heat rises, so as it flows out of the upper window, fresh air comes
    into the bottom window, sometimes with the help of a fan.
    
    Chris D.

    Hello,
    
    I've been reading all of the storm window notes and I need some
    more information.  I have a 150 year old home with no storms and
    no insulation.  We also live on a secondary road so I hear every
    car that goes by.  I'm looking for storm windows and I don't want
    the new ones.  I feel they will wreck the look of the old house,
    which has 2 gigantic bays facing the road.  Does anyone know anybody
    who sells wooden storm windows?  With the wooden storm windows,
    do you all think it would be a good sound barrier or am I better
    off with something else?????  I don't want to get the wooden storms
    custom made because it would be too expensive but I wonder if they're
    made anymore.
    
    Any information would be great...
    
    thanks in advance,
    carrie
    
    

    Wooden storms are still made, but you probably would need custom
    work for a place that is that old - could cost you up to $300/unit.
    
    I sympthasize with your wish not to destroy the character of the old
    windows - you may try something simpler than the old outside storms.
    It may be possible to make up simple frames with glass or plexiglas
    to fit the inside frames of your windows, this would provide you with
    the insulating effect, not affect the outside appearance, and would be
    very simple to install and remove seasonally.
    These can come in a range from plexiglas with a magnetic strip
    around the periphery to mate with a magnetic strip mounted to the 
    inside window frame, to wood-framed glass that installs not unlike the
    outside storms.

    	Sound transmission is closely related to heat transmission/loss. A
    tight building will be a quiet building given normal construction
    methods. (You could have a tight building due to a thin vapor barrier,
    that would not be good, soundwise, but that's not 'normal'.) Like heat
    transmission, the windows are typically the major leak. 
    	For high transmission loss windows: you want each layer well
    sealed.   You want to have as large an airspace between them as
    possible. You want to have glass of different thicknesses in the
    layers. And, if the airspace is wide enough, you want some absorptive
    material facing the airspace.  If you can stand the poor scratch
    resistance of acrylic panes, they are excellent (high internal damping
    compared to glass) IF you get them as heavy (lb/sqft) as glass. Of
    course, thicker heavier glass is better than thin glass.  If you were
    really trying for super TL, like in a monitor booth for a recording
    studio, you'd also slant on layer of glass relative to the next layer.
    	That will be $125.  Oh, you didn't want to buy consulting advise...
    forget the above then.  - Chris  :-)

    I'm sure you can still buy wooden storm windows...whether you can
    get a stock size to fit is another question, but if you can get
    a stock size that *almost* fits, it shouldn't be a big deal to
    cut it down.
    Note also, it's entirely possible that every window will be slightly
    different and each one will have to be custom-cut anyway.  I recall
    that when wooden storm windows weren't quite as obsolete as they
    are now, you could buy little metal tacks with numbers on the heads
    at the hardware store.  Purpose: to number your storm windows and
    the openings they fit, so you could match them up when you put them
    on in the fall.
    You may have a bigger problem buying the window hangers than you
    have buying the actual windows, if you're plannning to install the 
    windows  in the "old" way.  But I expect that somebody, somewhere, is
    still making the hardware.  You'll just have ask for it, at a *good*
    hardware store or lumber yard, and they may have to order it for
    you.

    Try J & C Adams Co., in Cambridge.  They are the window specialists
    and we had a wooden storm window made for our picture window
    years ago.  It only removed for cleaning.
    

    I had a problem with a 200 year old house and rotten wooden storms.
    The way I solved it was to make new windows myself.
    
    	Kirk

    Does anybody know where to buy dark green aluminum storm windows?  Or
    perhaps I should restate my question:  what kind of storms can I get to
    fit over dark green windows and frames?  Location:  Littleton Mass.
    
    	Marlene

    I don't think dark green is a standard color.  When I wanted to changed
    my white aluminum storms to off white, I just have them two coats of
    latex.  It's a little tedious, but I do one window at a time, and it's
    not bad.  I think it shows pride of ownership, myself.
    
    Elaine

    I'm looking to buy storm windows for my house.  Right now I have
    double insulated windows but there seems to be a lot of air leakage
    from where the wood (the sliding part) comes into contact with the
    window frame.  These are Wenco double hung windows.
    
    I looked at Sears and they have their standard good, better, and best
    quality levels.  Does the difference in the levels really warrant the
    cost?  I really don't need anything with screens, just something to
    stop the air infiltration that I can take down in the summer.
    
    What should one expect to pay for basic storm windows?  What is the
    charge for installation?  Any recommendations on where to shop for
    these (anywhere from Milford/Framingham/Shrewsbury,MA to Nashua,NH)?
    
    -al

    
    My Dad was a contractor for Sears. Storm window and doors was is main
    business. When I was a teenager I helped him install plenty of doors
    and windows. From my opinion (and my dads), the Sears windows are very
    good. But you can get better for the price. Recently I've been looking
    for new storm doors for my house. Builders Square in Nashua carries
    this real nice line of storm doors. They are very well built, and are
    much cheaper then Sears. The door comes in 3 different grades. The
    cheap grade seemed as good or better then Sears best grade. As for
    installation, do it yourself. It's not that complicated, and they
    should come with directions. Storm windows are even much easier to
    install yourself.
    
    Mike
    
    

    I just bought a thirty year old ranch in Shrewsbury Ma. The windows are
    in OK condition but they are drafty. The storms are in horrible shape.
    The people we bought the house from were "unclear on the concept" so
    they painted part of the frames on the ALUMINUM storms so they also
    look as horrible as they work. My question is...would it be worth it to
    have the storms replaced? or should I wait until I can afford the
    newfangled double-tripple-quadruple superduper insulated repacement
    windows? 
    
    Steve
    

re .23:

The cheapest quick fix is plastic inside storms, either the shrink-with-a-
hairdryer type or the snap-into-a-track type.

Is there anything wrong with the existing windows other than draftiness?
Are they weight-and-pulley windows?  If they are, Peter Hotton in the Globe
would say that you should forget about replacement windows, get good storms,
and replace the sashes with Brosco sashes as needed.

re the last reply

I am curious about your comment that it is not worth using replacement windows 
if you have the type that have weights.  Could you give me more information on
this?  I have an old house with windows that have the weights controlling the
sashes.  I have not had a desire to put replacement windows in, as I don't like
the way they look.  But your comment raised my curiousity.

Ed..

    
    Ed, I read the P Cotton column also.
    If I remember right, he says that reasonably tight windows with
    good storm windows are almost as effective (if not equally so)
    as replacement windows, and at a lot less cost. I've also read
    that any heat loss due to the openings for the weights is
    negligible.
    
    								Hank

    Re .26:  Old double-hung windows
    
    You can get plastic covers for the pulley openings to cut down their
    air infiltration.  
    
    		Marlene

re .25:

Peter Hotton has a Handyman column in the Boston Globe.  He has some very
strong opinions regarding vinyl siding and windows.

His standard answer for people with vinyl siding problems is "rip it off
and use wood."

His standard advice regarding windows is "keep your weight and pulley system,
replace sashes as needed, use good storm windows, use bronze weatherstripping."

I replaced the weight and pulley system on a couple of windows with
aluminum tracks.  I agree with Peter Hotton -- sash weights are much better.

According to 3542.11, Sears storm windows are good, but you can do better.
Any suggestions for specific high-quality brands?  How about dealers in the
Boston/Worcester/Nashua metro area?

Is there any problem with installing aluminum storms from the inside?
My extension ladder doesn't reach the second floor, and even if it did,
I wouldn't want to go that high.

    re: .29 and installing aluminum storm windows from the inside....
    
    I've never done it, but I think it could be done without too much
    effort.  It won't be quite as handy as doing it from the outside,
    probably, but it should be do-able.
    I guess I'd try doing it as follows:
    	   I think you'll want to keep at least one window in the frame
    	   so it stays square.  If upon actual trial this proves
    	   unnecessary, take them out so the frame won't be so heavy.
    	   If you elect to keep one or more windows and screens in,
    	   put all the windows and screens at the bottom, so the top 
    	   half is open.  From a short stepladder, lean out with the
    	   window and screw it to the frame at the top; possibly easiest
    	   to do the two sides at the top, and you may want somebody
    	   else around to hang onto one side of the window while you
    	   get the first screw into the other.
    	   Once you've got a couple of screws into it so it won't fall,
    	   you can get the other screws into it by raising and lowering
    	   windows.

    I know this note has been inactive for a long time but here goes...
    
    I'm getting ready to replace my storm windows and I was wondering if it
    would be better to bring them the old ones to make sure the new ones
    will fit rather than measuring the window openings.
    
    Also, are there many differences between storm window manufacturers?
    Are there any good brand names to look for? 
    
    Steve B.
    

    If you ask, they will probably come out and measure the windows for
    you.  A good thing for you.  Then if there is a screwup it's their fault.  
    
    I assume you are talking about aluminum storm windows.  Yes, some are
    better than others.  Price is probably a pretty reliable guide, but
    look around.

	I am looking for something to cover the openings to
	the basement of our barn, each piece would need to
	be about 8' x 10' and I'd need three pieces.

	It doesn't have to be perfectly clear but it should
	admit light so the poor llamas who inhabit the barn
	won't be in the dark all day; it needs to be sturdy,
	and it would be ideal if it could have grommets (sp?)
	so that it could be put up on hooks and easily taken
	down.  It would only be up during storms, not left
	up all winter or anything -- llamas are sturdy but
	I'd like to offer a little protection during a bad
	nor'easter.

	Anybody know what it is I'm looking for?  Do they make
	something like this for boat or car covers?  If you
	know, please try to provide a name for it and type
	of store it can be found -- so I can call places and
	at least ask for something they'll recognize!

	thanks,

	JanB

    
    You could try sailmakers or sailcloth manufacturers for UV-resistant
    ripstop mylar monofilm or dacron/mylar.
    
    It can be clear or white translucent and is very hard wearing.  It's
    easy to put in grommets.  I have a number of sails made out of this
    material which are over 5 years old and get a real bashing.  It'll be
    on the expensive side, but you'll get years of wear out of it.
    
    Colin
    

    I used to have some gigantic more-or-less-clear plastic dropcloths that
    were maybe 10x14 feet or so.  They were harder to use than cloth
    dropcloths because the plastic was sort of stiff, and I don't know what
    ever became of them after we went back to using cloth ones.  The other
    thing you an get is 'agricultural plastic" in big rolls - comes in
    black or transparent.  The people who make it think you are going to
    put it down underneath a mulch in your flower garden.  I think it opens
    up to 12' wide or so, and is reasonably heavy-guage.
    
    /Charlotte

cause it won't stick worth a damn to a cold window casing let alone stand 
up to any kind of breeze.

It needs to be on the warmer side of the window and it needs the relative 
calm of an inside wall.

    3M (and maybe some others) make an outdoor variant of window film; it
    has a different tape AND film.. It works fine, but if the tape gets ANY
    sun, make sure you take it off as soon as possible.. otherwise it
    becomes pretty much permanent..
    
    Haven't used the stuff in several years, don't know if it's still made.
    
    ...tom

    
    
      I've used this on my 3 season porch(on the inside). Previous comments
    are right about outside use. The way it's attached will not stand up to
    bad weather. The best cost I've seen is at Home Depot(9 window sets
    for about $11.99. They work well...
     
    

    I have 20 windows in my house.  Just your standard window with a
    slide in insect screen in front of them and I'm sure I'm wasteing a lot
    of heat right out the window.  They are also drafty, so I'm looking
    into storm windows which apparently fit in place of the bug screen.
    These are permanent fixtures, which replace the screen with glass
    pains and ventilation screens.  
    
    My question is this:  Since heat rises, should I replace ALL windows
    at once, or can I replace just my 1st floor windows now as my
    budget permits?  The majority of the windows are on the 1st floor.
    These cost about $50/each.  Does anyone know what type of return
    on investment I'll get?  Would this be a good deal or am I wasting
    money?
    
    Thanks,
    MadMike               

    I wouldn't worry about the "heat rises" part of the equation. Any window
    whose R value you increase will result in some heat savings. (In other
    words, there's no way that most of the heat saved by improving one
    window will magically seek another inefficient window.)
    
    The actual pay-back is hard to predict, because it's going to vary
    according to the size of the windows, whether they're currently single
    pane (not pain), double pane, or coated, etc. Some years back we
    replaced all our fixed single-pane windows with coated double-pane, and
    the increase in general comfort (less icy condensation on the windows
    and less cold air near the windows) was worth the investment even
    ignoring the raw energy savings. With this in mind, you might consider
    starting with the room(s) you spend the most time in during the cold
    months.

    ...plus you could do the other windows in shrink wrap for the
    season.

    I have single pane in my basement and I used plexiglass.  Just put it
    on with a bead of caulk.  Much better then plastic and not as expencive
    as storm windows. And you can reuse it year after year.
    
    Gary