Conference 7.286::home_work

	I am curious, How did you get a mortgage like that ?

Micahel
	Btw, I would build the basement.

I have worked with two friends that dug basements and placed foundations
under existing houses. It is EXTREMELY labor intensive. It means basically
digging with a shovel, first some holes in which to build temporary cribs
to support the house, then digging the entire foundation by hand. The only
reason I'd ever attempt it would be the case of a collapsing foundation,
and then only if the house was worth saving. It would actually be eaiser
to move the house back off the foundation, build a basement and move the
house back!

Id look at building up, or building a new wing, with basement under it, but
leave the old crawl space as is.

My husband and I put a basement under out house from a crawl space
19 years ago.  I seriously doubt if I would want to tackle that
again.  However, entering a cellar at any time beats crawling under
the house.  

I think if I had to do it again I would seriously consider raising the
house and matching the walls to meet it first.

Have fun, whatever you decide to do.

Gail

re: .0
 A very novel idea that I've seen, particularly if you have a small lot,
is to do neither dig, nor add wing. The general reference is the Good
Housekeeping magazine, and the concept is to:

Raise the existing house, and construct a New first floor under it, thereby
conserving land, and keeping existing roof structure intact.

The 'general' range of issues is sometime between Aug 85 and Dec 85.
     
						Bob

What do you want the space for?  If it's any sort of living space, I'd
opt for an addition.  A basement is a basement is a basement, no matter
what you do to it.  Personal bias, but I have NEVER seen any room in a
basement that I'd want to use for living space.

Steve

We just moved into the house we built this last fall.  When the foundation was
dug, the floor of the hole was out of level by almost a foot, which meant that
we had to dig out part of the floor, to a maximum depth of about 6".  Just that
was a _lot_ of work.  Consider that we were digging in an area where we could
stand up, and swing a pickaxe to break up the dirt, and could easily load it 
into a wheelbarrow to take it out of the cellar.  You are going to be digging
where you can't stand up, and you're probably going to have to take the dirt
out in buckets, unless you can rig up some better way to get it out.

I think, facing your choice, if it would cost twice the money for half the
space by building an addition instead of digging out the crawlspace, I'd opt
for the addition.

Paul

    
      I'm in the process of doing both digging out and adding on.  I
    haven't found the digging all that bad.  What I did was knock out
    a 5 foot wide whole in one wall of the current 4 foot high foundation
    so it was large enough to fit a wheel barrow.  From there I under
    cut the foundation on that wall in 6 foot sections, let it hang
    and dug down the required depth for the new wall.  I then poured
    that portion of the wall progressing all along that first side.
    Now I'm under the house and diging the floor down to provide a 7
    ft ceiliong when finished.  I'm about half way down the house know.
     as I'm going along I continue to under cut six foot sections of
    
    old foundation and pour the new.
    
         The reason I'm digging is two fold.  I want the basement for
    a work shop, I plan on building a amphibious airplane as I live
    on a lake and a walk out basement will provid a perfect work shop,
    also we're adding a second floor to our house and due to the
    construction of the old foundation it was not capable of supporting
    the weight of a second floor.
    
          Digging out a into a basement is not a small task but.....
    if you want it bad enough like myself it worth it.   By the way
    it's taken about 4 months of 4 nights a week 3-4 hrs each to get
    half way.
    
    
    
    	Mark, the miner......
    

    I want to enclose a deck this Spring and would like to do the work 
    myself.  To get the interior height that I want it looks like I'm
    going to have to attach the porch roof to the house roof rather
    than to a joist nailed to the sidewall.  Before I decide to do this
    myself (the thought of cutting through the house roof is a little 
    scary) does anyone know where I can find out more about the how to 
    of doing this successfully?  Anyone have experience with it.
    
    Also, what are the rules around minimum roof slope to be able to
    use shingles rather than rolled asphalt or other such coverings?
                                                                   
    George

You don't necessarily have to cut through the house roof to attach the new one.
If you can find where the house rafters are, just sit the porch rafters over 
them and nail right through the shingles and plywood.  Just make sure that you 
get the new rafters over the old and not on the plywood in between.  If you 
can't line the rafters up for some reason, you could nail a joist to the roof 
and rest the new rafters on that.  The beauty of this method is that you are 
never exposed to the weather.  If the shingles currently on the roof aren't too
brittle, you ought to be able to weave the new ones underneath and not disturb 
more than a row or two of the original shingles.  If they are too brittle, you 
may have to reshingle up to the ridge.

Most shingle manufacturers suggest a 4:12 pitch to be the minimum, although if
you put tarpaper underneath 3:12 is ok (that's what's on my house).  Anything 
lower than that I'd go with roll roofing.

Paul

    Thanks Paul,  I thought of nailing a joist to the roof but was told
    that this wasn't the way it should be done.  Are there advantages
    or disadvantages to either of the 2 methods you suggest?  They sure
    would make it easier!  Anyone else have any experience with this?
  
    I assume that by 3:12 or 4:12 you mean inches drop per horizontal
    inches the roof runs.  Am I right?
    
    George        "If I were a carpenter..............."

    "Nail a joist to the roof"?  I don't quite follow.  Oh well.
    
    I think I'd pull off the soffit boards and slide the new roof rafters
    in next to the existing roof rafters, resting them on the top plate
    of the wall and nailing them into the sides of the existing roof
    rafters, assuming that would give enough slope to the new roof.
    
    Steve

    The idea in .4 sounds a bit strange.  Lifting up the house and
    installing a new first floor.  Then the living rm, kitchen & dining
    room would be on the second floor, not to mention your foyer.  Also
    you would have to disconnect all of your plumbing and electricity
    in order to do this.  If you just add another floor by removing
    the roof, then all you have to do is add onto your existing utilities
    or add new ones (rather than disconnecting/reconnecting & adding).

	+------------------------------------------+
	!          bath 2 !                        !
	! bdrm   +--------+ kitchen        family  !
	!  #1    ! bath 1 !                room    !
	!        +--  ----+                        !
	!          +-----------    -+--  ----------!
	!--------! !                !              !
	! bdrm     !   living       !   garage     !
	! #2     ! +   room         !              !
	!        !                  !              !
	!--------+ +-  -------------!              !
	!          !   porch        !              !
	! bdrm     !                !              !
	! #3       !----------------!              !
	!          !                !              !
	+----------+                +--------------+


I'm considering adding a 2nd floor above my bedrooms. The bedrooms are 11'
wide with a 3' hallway. From the outside wall of the bedrooms to the inside
wall of the hallway it's 14'. There are 2' overhangs outside of the bedrooms
and over the porch.

Would it be possible to add a 38' by 18' second floor above the bedrooms.
My plan would be to:

	1. remove the old roof/plywood
	2. saw off the existing rafters close to where they join the old ceiling
	   joists
	3. Put new 2x8's next to the existing 2x6's for the new 2nd floor
	   floor joists.
	4. Put 3/4 toung and groove plywood down for the flooring for the
	    2nd floor
	5. Build exterior walls
	6. Put roof trusses in place
	7. Puts new 1/2 plywood down for roof
	8. Put new shingles in place.


Questions:

	1. How can I tell if the floor joists under the bedrooms are beefy
	   enough ?
	2. How can I tell if the foundation is stong enough ??
	3. How can I tell if I have enough load bearing walls ??
	4. Can I extend my new floor joists 2' beyond the existing walls ??
	5. Any body have any experience doing anything similiar ??
	6. Are there any books or magazines that might discuss what I want to do


	IS IT A STUPID THING TO CONSIDER ???  :)

al

I really don't have any real experience in this area but a friend has done
something similar.  I assume that by

	3. Put new 2x8's next to the existing 2x6's for the new 2nd floor
	   floor joists.

you mean that you will remove the flooring/sub-flooring and nail the 2X8's to
the existing 2X6's?  As for strength of the floor, I would wonder about the
span.  If it's under 12 feet, it sounds reasonable but if more, you might need 
to go with something like a 2X10.

As for extending the joists 2 feet, that doesn't sound like much of a problem
assuming the exterior walls are stong enough (which they "usually" are).

Please note that I'm NOT a building, so this is just kind of winging it.

I suppose if I was doing it and was getting concerned about whether or not it
would fall down after it was done, I might call a few contractors in to bid on
it and ask THEM a lot of questions.  Hopefully they could answer all yours and
possibly raise a few more you hadn't thought of.

Is it worth it?  Sure...  You'd have a blast doing it (assuming you're not in
too much of a hurry!).

-mark

If your house is conventionally built, your existing structure (foundation,
walls, etc) is fine.  Incidentally, the bedroom floor joists don't figure
into it unless they, too, are cantilevered.

My brother and I are in the process of converting his former ranch house
into a cape.  The bull work is done (6 men removed the old roof, raised
rafters, and skinned the new roof in a week-end).  We've built 2 of the
4 gabled dormers since and shingled that side.

My brother did a LOT of preparatory work before 'the big week-end':
He took off a gable end and cut back the eaves so we could insert the
new joists and put the sub-floor in ahead of time.  He also built the
stairs; a real boon.  The rafters were, of course, pre-cut.  He used a
technique from Fine Homebuilding: the rafters have no tails but a notch
cut at the bottom which locked into a 2x6 nailed on top of the joists.
He made dummy rafter tails in his shop; these were nailed to 1x strips
and nailed to the house in sets.  The roof sheathing ties it all together.

Here's what we did with the floor joists:

                                   metal cross-bridging
        __New 2x10 joists          | 
       /                           V
 ___--| |--___     ___--| |--___     ___--| |           existing 2x6 joists
-     | |     -----     | |     -----     | |          /
 ---__| |__---     ---__| |__---     ---__| |         /     _ 1x6 spacer
      | |      | |      | |      | |      | |      | |     /      
______[_]______| |______[_]______| |______[_]______| |_________    |- top plate
_______________[_]_______________[_]_______________[_]_____________V_______
__________________________________________________________________________

Benefits:
	The 1x6 spacers keep the 2x10 floor joists off of the ceiling: No
	 risk of cracks; sound insulation (the kids' rooms are going to be
	 upstairs); space to string wiring under joists.
	By not building sister-joists (as you are suggesting) he further
	 avoided ceiling cracks (by not driving spikes into existing joists.)
	Facilitated pre-building the floor since we didn't have to work
	 near rafters.

Final Note:  My brother bought a 30x50 plastic tarp plus a bunch of smaller
	ones.  With these he managed to keep the house weathertight
	between steps. Impossile otherwise.

    Adding a second floor is a great way to increase living space!
    I have help add a second floor on my brothers home and have build
    two dormers of my own, so I do now somthing about the problems you
    my get into.
    
    Weather can be a real problem because once the roof is offyou will
    spend a great deal of time protecting it from rain. Do not overlook
    the wind.................
    
    Use 2x10 for the floor and the over hang should not be a problem.
    
    As for the weight on the foundation, I would only be concerned if
    it was not a concrete foundation. Field stone etc.........
    
    As for the roof trusses, how will you get them up on the walls?
    A crane?
    
    Some contractors will actual use a crane and lift the old roof and
    add the new walls under it.
    
    You may want to get some estimates just to get some differt ideas
    on how it can be done.
    
    Open for questions anytime.............
    
    -Mike-
    
       
    

    I'm looking to add a sun room to the south side of my house. I have
    seen some with cement foundations and some with pipe supports on
    a cement footing like a deck. Has anyone been in a similar situation?
    What made you go choose either way? PROS and CONS to either way?
                                                                Ed

    I've put sun rooms onto two of my houses so far.  I've used concret
    pilings on both.
    Putting a full foundation represents about 50% of the cost (if you
    have the foundation put in by a contracter) of the addition.
    When/if you sell you house, the addition with no foundation 
    adds no value to the house.  Of course it costs you no more in taxes either.
    Its harder to heat than a foundation too.  We use our room spring-fall.
    Next time for me it will be a full foundation.
    ed
    

    We had a sun-room added onto our first house (in NH).  It was on
    piers, primarily due to the cost difference.  When we sold the house
    2 years later, the room added about $3500 to the value of the house.
    (At least that's how the real estate agent detailed it on the appraisal
    sheet).  I wouldn't hesistate to do it that way again, although
    if the $$ difference wasn't much I'd opt for the full foundation.
    
    -Mark
    

    Ours does not have a foundation since it started out to be a deck.
    It ended up with a full ceiling and nine sliding doors.  We had
    the deck built of pressure treated decking.  The room is great and
    I would not change it except for the floor where I plan to put wood
    flooring and a carpet.  This should make it into a 3 season room.
    
    If you plan to add on a sun room that will eventually end up a family
    room do it so that you can insulate.  If you already have a family
    room you won't need another.
    
    Judie
    
     
    
    

As thoughts turn to spring, mine turn to a new project.  I'm gonna be 
putting up an addition and quite frankly the only part that worries me 
is the stuff I won't be doing myself and will have to deal with
contractors for.  This should involve the foundation, heating, plumbing
and plasterer.  But, since the latter three are probably at least 1/2
year or more away from the project start, I'll worry about them later.
However, back to the foundation... 

I'm gonna be crossing my water line (from the well), so the first thing 
I need to do is deal with the well line.  I think the easiest thing to 
do is simply put the pressure tank in the new basement.  Anybody have good 
recommendations for pump people?  I called Middlesex Water and Need
Pump.  The first said it could be as much as 1K and the latter said
around $200.  I think I had better budget close to $500 to be safe. 

Next comes the forms people.  I have no idea who's good.  And then 
there's someone to do the floor.  I already have someone to dig the 
cellar hole.

Almost forgot...  I need to put in a hatchway to get into the cellar 
(I have to remove the old one).  One forms guy I talked to said the 
cheapest way to get the steps is to get them pre-formed.  He suggested a 
place in Merrimack.  Said it would run around $500.  Anyone have 
experience here?  Is preformed the cheapest?  I have some already and 
although the look ok, the treads are very narrow. Perhaps that's the 
only to do it if you don't want to stick off the back of the house by 10 
feet!

As I said before, dealing with the contractors worry me the most.  I've
got to get involved with something like 5 or 6 people before I can pound
my first nail! 

-mark

    Over the years the best stairs situation in a bulkhead/hatchway
    type set-up I've seen is the type where a stair bracket is nailed
    to each side of the foundation (2 on each side) and 2X's (6's or
    8's) are slid into the brackets from the top of the foundation to
    the cellar floor. It's CHEAP and the benifit that stands out most
    in my mind is that big machines or; picture a fridge for instance;
    can be lowered vertically into the cellar once the 2x's (making
    up the stairs) are removed.
    
    Clarification;                     |---------|
                                       | bulk-   |  << foundation wall
    looking down on foundation:        |  head   |       
                                       |   area  |
                         ---------------         ------------- 
                         |                                   |
                                               
    
                  
 standing on cellar floor       |--                 |
looking at inside               |  --               |
(left or right) of bulk-        |    --             |
head section             :      |      --           | << inside corner
                                |        --         |    of foundation
         outside of foundation  |          --       |    in cellar
         -back-filled           |            --     |
         eventually   >>>>>>>   |              --   |
                                |                -- |

    Those dashes in my picture represent the bracket placement as well
    as a cross section of where you slide in the stairs. Soooooo, the
    width of your stairs is up to you, just tell the forms contractor
    the width and the distance from the main structure you want. It
    now should be evident that you'll need a data sheet showing dimensions
    of this Stair Bracket, this will tell you the inside distance  "X"
    from the foundation required:
                                         |--^-----|     
                                         |  |     |
                                         |  |X    |
                                         |  |     |
                               -----------  ^     -------------

    Mark

    For your forms, Dick Crowe in Shirley is good.  (I don't think you
    said where you are but if you called Need Pumps you can't be too
    far from Shirley).  Guiguire and DuFresne in Fitchburg is good too.
    I've used them and Dick Crowe.  I've also used Need Pump Co, and
    the owner let me keep his rotary hammer-drill to use over the
    weekend.  I thought that was generous since he didn't know me at
    all.  For your pre-formed bulkhead, get somebody not too far from
    where you live to install it.  If it's guarenteed not to leak
    you wouldn't want them to be too far way when it comes time to bring
    them back to fix it.
    

    A word of caution in regards to digging out a foundation---
    
    MAKE SURE OF WHO YOU HIRE AND MOSTLY MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A CONTRACT
    AS TO WHO IS LIABLE IF THE EXISTING FOUNDATION IS STRUCK AND IT
    COLLAPSES OR CRACKS.....DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS
    
    When you dig or backfill there is an awful lot of pressure on that
    wall,that as it was explained to me a slight hit w/the bucket would
    explode the wall.I had my entire foundation dug out a few years
    ago (the *ss,that built the house didn't waterproff,so I had 3-4
    inches of water throughout my basement till I could do it right).
    Anyway,do yourself a favor----put it in writing...

    ...and speaking of water...
    
    .2 didn't mentioned it, in addition to cost and improved access
    for moving large "whatevers" into the basement, one other BIG 
    advantage in pouring a jog for stairs in the foundation walls is 
    that you'll eliminate the problem of leaks that typically occur 
    when precast stairs are mated to the foundation.  
    
    Oh, if I had it to do over again...
  
    Jim.
    

    I second th evote for Guiguire & Dufresne.  I used them and they
    did an excellent job (garage & sunspace foundations).
    
    Tom
    

    Are you near Northboro?  if so I'd recommend KEYWAY.  They did the
    digging/forms/pouring for the foundation on the addition I'm putting
    up.  Good price and good work.
    -reed
    

I live in Harvard and plan to use Joe Shaw for excavating.  I've had him
do work for me in the past and is very honest AND a local resident. 

That idea about cellar stairs sounds really nifty.  Not only is it VERY 
functional, it's gotta be cheaper and better than precast.

Keep those comments coming...

btw - i recently called a plasterer.  although he couldn't quote me a 
price without seeing prints (can hardly blame the guy), he told me that 
round $1.15 to $1.25 might be a ballpark per square foot.  That would 
include everything from him hanging the blueboard to plastering as well 
as materials.  If blueboard is 32 square feet, that rounds out to around 
$35-$40 per sheet.  A recent not said that on This Old House a plaster said 
he charged $15 per sheet for just plastering and I've priced blueboard 
at around $9 a sheet.  That means he would be charging around $11-$16 per 
sheet to hang it.  That sounds a tad high to me.  Any thoughts?

-mark

    I like the thought about the "jog" in the foundation, mostly about
    the removable stairs, not precast. I would just like to make sure
    that jog I built matched the offered widths of steel bulkheads.
    
    As for my feelings on precast and bulkheads... Of which I have one
    of both. What do you mean "when they leak"? Was the contractor
    responsible for foundation coating? Is this work beyond your planning?
    Did you apply foundation coating to your addition? I believe that
    if you are looking for a "guarentee" of not leaking, the price would
    go up. Why not DIY with foundation coating and rolled roofing/poly
    coats (as previously described in foundation crack repair)? I did
    mine when I built 12 yrs ago and no leaks from this. As for the
    leaking of the bulkhead, apply sometype of sealer (Thompson's comes
    to mind) before/during the installation of the bulkhead. This will
    prevent your caulking (read GOOD stuff) from drying out. Should
    last longer than you.
    
    As for a form contractor, I recommend "fast" Eddie Johnson, from
    Westminster. He covers a large area and plans several projects in
    the same general location at once. They call him fast for a reason.
    
    dana

I could use a little help in trying to design and estimate a addition that
I would like to build on my house.

The house is a split level with a walkout basement in the back.  I would
like to construct a sun room off of the main level dining room with a storage
room below.  The size of both rooms would be 12 x 12.  Most of the design
and estimating I can handle I just need some pointers in the roof construction
and the foundation.

I would like to pour a concrete foundation.  I know that I need to go down
about four feet and would come up just barely higher then the ground level.
My desire is to do this as inexpensively as I can, but still doing the job
correctly of course.  So my questions for the foundation are as follows:

	o  Can I reasonably pour the footing myself?  I ask this because
           needs to be done before the the rest of the foundation and I
           would like to limit the number of times that I have to have the
           cement truck come out.

	o  What should the dimensions of the footing be?  The foundation will
           consist of three 12 foot walls.

	o  I am just looking for a slab type flooring.  Can I have the
           foundation walls and floor poured at the same time?  This 
           would allow me to have the cement truck come out only once.

	o  If the previous response is yes how should I set up the molding
           for the foundation?  What about reinforcing rods and straps to
           hold the footers?

 	o  Any suggestions for good books on the subject and rough costs?

Next problem area comes with the roof.  I think that my best bet comes with
using a gable type roof coming away from the original roof instead of a
shed type roof, such as you might have with windows on the second story
of a cape.  This would allow me to maintain a decent pitch on the roof and
to have cathedral ceilings in the room.  The questions for this part follow:

	o  How do I go about tying into the original roof?  Do I need to
           remove the shingles in the area that I am going to be working
           on?

	o  How do I construct the roof itself for cathedral ceilings?  I
           know how construct the standard roof but how do you get away
           with removing the lower portion without harming the integrity?

	o  What about venting the roof, soffets and ridge vents?

	o  Again any recommendations on good books on the subject?

I plan on doing all of the work my self.  I just have this thing about paying
for something that I think I can do myself.  At least I haven't gotten myself
in any trouble with finishing off the downstairs including a three quarter
bath and a twenty by twenty five foot family room in a Tudor style.

Please reply to this note or send mail to 

		Scott Harvell
                WORDS::HARVELL
		DTN 264-1554

Thanks for all your help.
    

    When I was building my garage I takled to a contractor about the
    foundation. One thing he said was that if I made the walls 10 in.
    thick I could get away without a footer.  I didn't persue this any
    further but instead used block on an 8x16 footer.
    
    Marty
    

    You do still need a footing for a 10" wall.  At least you do in
    MASS.                                                           
    
>    My desire is to do this as inexpensively as I can, but still doing the job
>   correctly of course.
    
    We know.  That's everyone's desire.
    
>    	o  Can I reasonably pour the footing myself?  I ask this because
>           needs to be done before the the rest of the foundation and I
>           would like to limit the number of times that I have to have the
>           cement truck come out.
 
    What do you mean?  That's a lot of bags of sacrete.  How are you
    going to pour it yourself?  One thing you can do to save money is
    to rent a backhoe, and dig a trench the width of the shovel.  Then
    you can pour the footings without forms.  You should call the builder
    inspector to ask what size footings he wants for whatever size walls
    you're pouring.  If you're pouring 8 inch walls he'll probably want
    12 inch footings.  But you have to ask him (if you're getting it
    inspected).
    
>    	o  I am just looking for a slab type flooring.  Can I have the
>           foundation walls and floor poured at the same time?  This 
>           would allow me to have the cement truck come out only once.
 
    I've never heard of doing that because the forms people wouldn't
    be able to remove their forms if they're cemented in on the inside.
    But since you're doing it yourself maybe you can figure out a way.
    Why do you want the cement truck to come only once?  They charge
    by the yard, not by the number of trips.
    
> 	o  Any suggestions for good books on the subject and rough costs?
 
    $52/yard for concrete and ~18/linear ft for someone to come set
    the forms and pour.
    
    BTW, are you putting in a new walkout basement?  If so, remember
    that your footing has to go down 4 feet below the basement door.
    

    Pouring your own footer is not that big a problem if you have the
    time.  Rent a cement mixer at the local 'rentall' store and buy
    the cement, sand....... and have at it.  You can use scrap pieces
    of aspenite for the forms.  Then you can build a block wall instead
    of pouring one.  It's cheaper but slower.  I see noway to pour a
    slab at the same time as the walls.  Since the hole has to be 2
    feet wider than the wall on both sides (working room), how can you
    back fill around the wall before it's done?
    
    If the idea is to keep cement trucks off the lawn, pour the footer
    yourself, build a block wall and use a wood floor.  Then you only
    have to worry about repairing the damage from the excavator.
    
    As for the roof, I usually head for the public library.  If you
    look at a lot of different books you may get an idea you like better.
    
    
    				Good luck
    				   KO

      I did a 12X12 area of foundation by pouring the footing and the
    floor at the same time (but not the walls).  The standard footing
    is the same depth as the wall is thick, and twice as wide as the
    wall is thick.  This would mean an 8" deep by 16" wide footing to
    support an 8" thick wall. 
      The reason to limit the number of times that the cement truck
    comes is cost.  I called three places, and the prices were basically
    the same,  in that the less you buy the more it costs per yard.
    Typical costs were $52 per yard, plus $10 for each yard less than
    five.  This means that 4 yards is $52X4 plus $10, 3 yards is $52X3
    plus $20, etc.  So, buying 1 yard at a time would cost $92 each.
      How to do it: Well, mine was done by digging the hole down to
    4" below where I wanted the floor, plus another 4" down for the
    bottom of the footings.  It sounds like you need the footings four
    feet below floor level?  I've seen it done (in books) by removing
    the top soil in the area, then have a backhoe with an 8 or 10" bucket
    dig a trench where you want the wall.  Put a 2X4 or 2X6 board on
    edge around the outside of this hole, where you want the top of
    the wall to be, and brace it good (real good). Now line the entire
    area with plastic, inside the trench and across the bottom of the
    floor area.  This will help keep the floor dry and also keep the
    moisture in the concrete while it sets.  Put some re-inforcing rod
    in the bottom of the trenches (footing area) and some wire mesh
    across the floor area, and poor the whole thing at once.  This is
    how the books show it, but I would probably try to undercut the
    bottom of the trenches somewhat to make a better footing, but this
    may be difficult depending on how firm the soil is.  
      Another way would be to pour regular footings, build a block wall,
    and then pour the floor.  This would probably cost about the same
    as pouring all at once (the block is cheaper, but the cement truck
    comes twice with 1.5 yards each time, instead of once with 7 yards).
    But laying 36' of block 4' high is not as easy as it looks (laying
    block isn't difficult, but it is heavy.
      So, if your soil is very thick and firm, you may be able to just
    dig out the areas that should be cement and pour cement in.  If
    your soil is loose or sandy, its footing, then wall, then floor.
      I've also seen (in books) pressure treated lumber foundations.
    Dig the trench, put in a footing of crushed stone or cement, and
    build a regular stud wall with pressure treated 2X6 and pressure
    treated plywood, then backfill both sides and build a pressure
    treated floor on top of it, then just regular construction on top
    of that.  This may or may not be less expensive, PT wood is expensive.
      I'm not really making suggestions one way or the other, just kicking
    around some ideas for discussion.....
    
    Jim D.

    I'm currently putting the finishing touches on a 18X14 addition,
    it has a crawl space foundation, cathedral ceilings, skylights,
    etc. I strongly recommend contracting out the digging and pouring
    of the foundation, it makes things alot easier. For cathedral
    ceilings you can either use roof trusses, or do what I did and
    build up a carrier beam and then attach the roof rafters to that.
    Depending where you live, I can recommend people to dig the hole,
    frame and pour the foundation and to pour the floor. You're more
    than welcome to come take a look at the way I framed the addition,
    but it has to be in the next few weeks, as the sheet rock will be
    on by then. I live in Nashua near the Dunstable line.
      The cement trucks did leave some ruts in the lawn, but they smoothed
    out after a while. Also I would recommend going to the library
    and try to get the Time-Life book "Adding On", it will show you
    what you basically want to do.
    
    
    Royce

Whether you mix the mortar yourself or get a truck, make SURE the footings are 
level.  The best way to do this (unless you happen to have a transit :^)) is to
use a water level.  It's been described in here somewhere before, if you're 
unfamiliar with it, write back and I'll explain.  Construction is much easier 
if you START level, instead of having to right it later on.  Same with square, 
although you don't need to worry about that too much with the footings, that 
starts with the walls.  

To make a cathedral peaked roof, you need to support the ridge, best done with 
a ridge beam.  If you go to a local mill, you can get custom cut pine beams 
for about $.40 a bd ft, .50 if you want it planed.  The rafters then rest on 
the ridge beam.  Cathedral ceilings are best vented with soffit vents and a 
ridge vent.  You can get styrofoam channels to nail to the underside of the 
roof plywood to provide a channel for ventilation, then stuff the rest of the 
cavity with insulation.

Paul

    I'm on the last few legs of my 30x24 s floor addition; here are
    some ideas from what I have learned.
    
    >DOING THE FOUNDATION YOURSELF
    Almost every book I read on doing construction, usually written
    for carpenters, included a chapter on this, prefaced with 'this
    is so you understand what they are doing; you are better off leaving
    this to concrete contractors.'  They are right, I believe.  The
    foundation's being level and correct is probably the most important
    part of the construction.  I don't think you will save much doing
    it yourself, given the costs of renting the equipment.  I just happen
    to have Taylor's price sheet in my pocket:
    	5-7 yard dumptruck	400/week
    	loader backhoe		999/week
    	cement mixer 6 cu ft	180/week
    let me stop there and tell you that you have now exceeded more than
    1/2 the cost of my entire foundation, just on the rentals!  Can
    you use a backhoe?  I don't mean looking where the knobs and levers
    are, but 'feeling' how to use it - like driving a stick shift and
    not thinking about when/how to shift/clutch.  if not, stay away
    from it, or you will be there forever trying to get it right and
    not making the backhoe a permenant part of the addition.
    
    >footing sizes
    Mine were 2x2 and four feet down
    
    >Slab and foundation at same time
    All of the other reponses on logistical impossibilities of this
    cover it well, but remember that the slab and the walls are very
    different jobs.  The walls are just level - the slab is SMOOTH as
    well, and there is a whole art to doing that.  In fact, the hardest
    time I had with the foundation phase was lining up someone to do
    the slab - most places don't do that part.  I believe that at least
    the top layer is also different concrete than the walls.
    
    
    >Roof - tying in, removing shingles.
    Yes, remove the shingles.  Your gable idea is the best, rather than
    a lean-to type of roof.  Unfortunately I erased the tape from one
    of the home shows a month ago when they did just this.  You start
    with a long 2x12 going from the crest of your esiting room,
    perpendicular to the existing house and extending to the far side
    of the addition (am assuming the final shape of your house is an
    "L"), and is supported by the frame at that end.  This would look
    just like the gable end of a standard house, from your addition's
    point of view.  Your then continue this going downward and outward
    on each side, with each one being a little shorter (since the current
    roof gets closer and closer to the far side of the addition, which
    is perfectly vertical).
    
    >How does the roof stay together?
    Use what are called collar ties, unless you really want the cathedral
    to have the traditional
                                *
                              *   *
                           *         *
                        *              *
                        *              *
    look instead of
    			        *
                              *****
                            *       *
                          *           *
                          *           *
    look.  If you want the former then I'll have to think more on this.
    
    >VENTS
    Already covered in an earlier response I think:  You must have a
    ridge vent if there is not an attic, and then use what are called
    rafter vents (brand name is Proper Vents) along the underside of
    the roof deck from the ridge vent to the soffit overhang.
    
    
    
    My philosophy in planning was to definitely contract out the
    foundation, maybe contract out the basic frame, and definitely to
    do the interior finish (drywall, partitions, electric) myself. 
    I decided to contract out the frame, based on available time (mine)
    and ability to get a crew together for more than a day here and
    there.  Yours is more appropriate to getting the frame up on a long
    weekend.  I don't know if NH requires you to use a plumber or
    electrician - check with the building inspector (not the plumbing
    or electrical inspectors, who may be biased or have conflicting
    interests). In Mass only the plumber is required.  Be sure that
    you have your doors and windows at least ordered before ytou start
    any framing, otherwise you will be spending a lot of time 'fixing'
    rough opening sizes.  Above all, I really thin you should go through
    the following scenario on the foundation?
    	1.	Will I do the foundation myself?
    	2.	If yes, go to #1
    	3.	Call the contractor
    
    Look around for designers, you will draw up the plans in detail
    to build from, and will know about codes and load factors for the
    foundation (remember, you are the general, so you have to supply
    plans to the foundation people), walls and roof.  Should not cost
    more than $250 or so for your job - mine was $400 for 5 sets for
    the entire addition.
    
    good luck, keep us posted!
    -reed
     
      
      
    

        >DOING THE FOUNDATION YOURSELF


    I agree that you shouldn't excavate or pour a foundation yourself.
    But one way you can save money is to backfill the foundation yourself.
    I did it and I'm glad I did.  The excavator would have charged me
    around $600 (this is Paul Charbonneau from Pepperell, and I know
    he's expensive) to backfill my foundation, so I rented a bobcat
    for $150 for the weekend.  It took about 2 hours to learn to use
    it well.  After that it's very easy.  I also did some other things
    (like build a boulder retaining wall), which I wouldn't have paid
    someone else to do.
    Also, next time I rent a bobcat, I won't have the 2 hour learning
    overhead.
    

    OK, we're going to go ahead and put an addition on our
    house.  The fool thing is going to be 20' X 24', one storey,
    gable roof (12 in 12 pitch) and sit on piers -- 7' tall
    posts on concrete footings in the front, much shorter on
    the back. It'll look a bit like a house on a trestle.

    SO, I need to put two of these piers in the little
    lean-to that houses my oil tank and is my basement
    entrance.  It has a severley cracked concrete floor,
    so I need to dig holes in the floor for real footings
    for these posts.
    
    1).  How do I make holes in the floor -- whack it with
    a sledge hammer?   How localized will the destruction
    be (assuming I don't go wild)?

    
    2). There is no question #2 (yet).
    
    		George
        

    I had to do a similar thing when I turned my screen porch into a
    family room.  (The old porch was rotting away, so it wasn't a big
    loss.)  I tore down the old porch leaving just the concrete pad.
    I then had to notch it for the footings for the family room.
    
    I simply rented a jack hammer.  The one I happend to get, and WOULD
    NOT recommend, was an electric BOSCH hammer.  The main problem the
    electic hammers have is that the on/off switch has a habit of flaking
    out; usually in the on position.  It dies eventually shut off, but
    only after 10 or 20 seconds; can be interesting.  If I were to do
    it again, I you rent an air version with the compressor.
    
    The other thing I did was to rent a power auger to dig the holes
    for the footings.  You can usually find up to about 12" in a one
    man (operating) variety; anything bigger is usually a two man
    operation.  To clean out the remaining dirt, I used what is called
    a sewer shovel.  This is simply a shovel with a LONG handle (about
    10 to 12 feet) and then business end almose perpendicular rather
    than parallel to the handle.  Sure beats a post hole "shovel".
    
    - Mark

i{rented an electric jack hammer a few weeks ago to bust through my
    garage floor and had no problems at all.  It took me maybe 20
    minutes to go through 4" with a 12" diameter. the{rental agenc{
    here in VT. called it a chipping hammer but it was a BOSCH electric
    jack hammer if you ask me{{
    excus{ the phone noise.{   isn't the divestiture great ?{?{{
    
    

    A sewer shovel -- is *that* what it is?  Seriously, I've got
    one hanging up in my shed -- it was there when I bought the house,
    and I've had no idea what it was for.  Looked to me like a shovel
    designed by someone who had no idea what it was for.  In what
    manner is it used as a 'sewer shovel'?  Working on the pit under
    a privy?
    
    Well, so far I've got a vote either way on the electric jack hammer.
    
    			George

    RE: sewer shovel
    
    	It is primarily used to clean out the crud (branches, mud, etc)
    	that tend to clog up the storm drains along the side of the
    	road.  You pop off the man-hole cover and start digging away.
    
    	I haven't seen them used much here in the northeast, but further
    	south, you can seem them in use all the time.
    
    RE: Chipper vs jack hammer
    
    	There is a separate beast usually rented as a chipper.  The
    	two are quite different in purpose.  The chipper is usually
    	used for "chipping" small holes in concrete.  This chipper is
    	usually the size of a reciprocating saw.  The larger jack hammer
    	is on the order of 3 feet high, about 8"x12" at the motor end,
    	and about 40-50 pounds.  You can use a chipper to punch holes,
    	but there was no way I was going to use one to break up a set
    	of (solid) cast concrete steps.
    
    	What you rented as a chipper may have indeed been the same thing
    	as the jack hammer I rented.  Bottom line, though, is that you
    	should make sure you know what you are renting, because the
    	tools don't all come offered under the same names.
    
    - Mark

I hope you realize that you should just dig as 12" hole and put in a tube!
You need a footing to support it that would probably be closer to 24", 
expecially if you don't want you room to sag.

I too have used a power auger and did 12" holes to put in 6" columns.  The
footings were NOT as big as they should be but I figured for a screened in
pourch I didn't have to worry about plaster cracking.

If you're building a BIG room, want SOLID footings and LOTS of them, I'd call 
in a back-hoe to dig the holes.  It would take under an hour, cost around
$50-$75, you won't be exhausted when the job is done and you may even
personally call me up to thank me!    8-) 

-mark

    Sorry, Mark, but I was already planning on getting a man with
    a backhoe to dig the holes, so you probably won't get that
    phone call.  I just didn't want anyone making holes in my
    floor with a backhoe -- at least I don't think I do -- it's
    awfully close to a rather important post that holds up some
    of my house. Should I worry?  Should I go for the backhoe?
    And what about Naomi?
    
    		George
    
    

It's getting close to that time to start making plans for pouring a foundation
for my addition.  Having never done this before, I have no idea what is
required of me after I get the hole dug.  Can I simply tell the forms people
where to put the foundation and have them work out the details of footing
sizes? Can I at least assume that they worry about alignment with the rest of
the house? How about the way the "new" meets the "old".  I don't want any water
leaks. I've heard that diging a channel into the old concrete will allow the
new stuff to lock in!  Is there an easier/better way? 

-mark

    Concrete block walls are DIY buildable; that way you don't worry about
    what the "forms" people will or will not do correctly.  Of course,
    a block wall may not fit your situation.
    
    Regarding locking the new to the old, you'd be much better off to
    simply butt the walls together and use a waterproof sealant at the
    seam.  Do not use reinforcing rods into both walls -- when/if one
    wall moves, you get major cracks.
    

    
    
    	Most foundation people know what size footing to use for the
    	thickness of the wall being poured.  General rule is that the
    	footing be twice as wide as the wall. So fo 8" wall pour a 16"
    	footing.
    
    	Excavate the hole so that it is 3' wider around the perimeter
    	than the actual building.  This is so the foundation people
    	can get their forms in.  Be sure to leave good access space
    	for the cement truck.
    
    	Make sure you tar and seal the outside foundation wall befor
    	backfilling.  Also be sure to put in perforated dain pipe
    	around the base of the foundation wall to carry any water
    	away from you basement.

    Most forms/concrete outfits I've seen are implementors, not designers.
    I would give them EXACT plans.  An out-of-whack foundation will
    give you no end of problems plumbing/squaring/leveling what's above
    it.

    BTW, I'm told you can rent the lock-together concrete wall forms.
    For footings you use 2x12's staked into the ground and tied on top
    with metal strapping.
    
    

>    BTW, I'm told you can rent the lock-together concrete wall forms.

If you can find anywhere that rents them, PLEASE let me know.  We tried that 
three years ago (Is it really that long ago?!?) when we poured our foundation, 
and couldn't find a single place that would rent them.  I'd still be 
interested, because we're going to do the garage next year.

Paul

re:.3 >  Most forms/concrete outfits I've seen are implementors, not designers.
      >  I would give them EXACT plans.  An out-of-whack foundation will
      >  give you no end of problems plumbing/squaring/leveling what's above
      >  it.
                           AUTOMATIC
    
      I've haven't heard any talk of the building inspector as yet.....
    and this amount of work should certaintly be drawn out in a detailed
    plan. This plan, for different stretchs of work, can be used as
    part of the contract when dealing with...for example the forms contractor. 
    
    There's really alot of work to consider for an addition attached
    to an existing structure...  >> Mark S...you don't really expect
    us fellow noters to believe you haven't got this project well thought
    out in advance...do ya. >Or are you a 'Shoot from the hip' guy who's
    going to expect that the people you hire are goin' to do everything
    you expect them to with or without a contract. I don't think so
    from reading your previous notes. But the forms/foundation, in my
    opinion is something to be left to a reputable contractor. The framing
    etc. and all the rest can be DIY.
    
    My Thoughts (and somehow I think you must have though this out)
    
       Escavation--Location > check local codes for setback and side
    yard requirements / foundation wall height...top of wall should
    be at least 8" above the finished grade at the wall line. / 
    A 5 bag is considered minimum or most work, and where high strength
    is required, a 6 bag mix is commonly used. / contract with forms
    guys should indicate a requirement for the foundation wall to be
    level all the way around to within 1/4" (This probably means you'll
    get within 1/2", but say within 1/2" and you'll wind up >.(more)
    
    sill plate anchors > have forms guys add these
    
    BTW will you have a crawl space or cellar below or footings 4' below
    grade capped off????? this changes things abit...e.g. use of vapor
    barriers beneath the capped concrete floor...insulation etc.
    
    Cmon....you got this all figured out.....don't cha? 
       
MArk
    

    About 10 years ago Parker-Danner rented forms.  They were not cheap.
                                                              
    Years back people would buy 5/8" plywood, make the forms and use
    the plywood and 2*4 after the fondation was in.  Takes a heap of
    2*4.  Tie locks and corner locks are nice to have.  BTW, a sheet
    of 5/8 gets heavy after using for a form.  I ruined my back moving
    80 sheets one day.

re:.-2

Actually I am kind of a shoot from the hip person.  In fact, when I built
my first addition, my father-in-came up to help and demanded plans.  I told him
I didn't have any!  He was appalled.  When we built the structure (post and 
beam), I told him I didn't want to think about where windows go until I get the 
roof up and can spend some time thinking about it...  Fortunately, everything
worked out pretty good.

Now, I'm doing things a lot better.  I have an architect drawing plans, but
we're not focussing too much on details since I fgure it'll take close to a
year before I'm even ready to think about the finish work.  As for dealing with
contractors, I've never done it and feel like a babe in the woods.

Right now, I have my building permit applcation in hand, architectural drawings
underway and a wetlands hearing tomorrow nite.  A small corner will be within
100 feet of a wetland and I need to get the DEQE involved (any horror stories
on that outfit?).

I know I'm being an optimist, but if things go well, I'd like to get the 
foundation poured by May-June and have the summer to do the framing.  As I said
before, contractors scare me and once the foundation is in I'll rest a lot 
easier.

-mark

Something else that comes to mind is waterproofing techniques.  An earlier
note referred to adding drain tiles at the base of the foundation.  The problem
I'll have is where does the drain go?  I fear I won't be allowed to do this
due to my proximity to a wetland (I'll find out more tonite).  Therefore, how
should one best prevent leaks when drain tiles are not appropriate?  Needless
to say, I'm only around 5-10 feet above the water table of the wetland now and
my cellar is dry!

My guess might be to put in a bunch of crushed stone below the level of the
footings, causing water to stay below the foundation.  Only problem here is
I don't know if I'll hit water when I dig down that deep.  It's a little
scarey!

-mark

I live in Harvard which is nowhere near the sea, however, I'm right against
a very flat/low piece of land that stays wet year round.  The reason the DEQE
is involved is because although my septic is already in place, ANY construction
within 100 feet (the BUFFER zone) requires approval.

As for draining the foundation, I'm kind of assuming that one might also have to
direct drainage 100 feet away which would make things very difficult.  That's 
why I was wondering if there is a way to keep things dry without the drain 
tiles.

As for the way you've drawn the foundation locking to the footings, I assumed
(silly me) that one always poured foundations that way.  From what you're saying
that may not be the case and I will be sure to DEMAND mine be done that way.

-mark

    Actually keying the walls into the footings is done only for
    "light loading" situations.  If the wall is going to be retaining
    8' of unbalanced load (like in a full basement completely (or mostly)
    below grade, then a much better job is to run vertical rebars out
    of the footing up into the walls.  But for 4' frost walls or crawl
    space walls, it's overkill.   
    
    This is one area where the Mass building code is a bit light on
    requirements.  In New England, the freezing/thawing phenomemon as
    well as general hydrostatic pressure can put a LOT of load on
    foundation walls.  Reinforcing concrete is easy to do so I usually
    play it safe if there is any doubt.
    

Well I had my wertlands hearing last nite and it was a breeze.  I guess it 
helps to have some reasable people on the board.  I had assumed that there was
no way I could allow anything to drain into the wetland and therefore wrote
off foundation drains.  The board said it would be fine to drain the foundation
into a dry well and that in fact that water would eventually make it's way back
into the wetland and would be goodness.  They just don't want foundation water
to directly run into the wetland.

So, what do people know about dry wells.  How big are they?  How deep?  How
much stone do you fill them with?  Drums with holes for drainage were mentioned?
Anyone ever use them?  How many do you put in the well, just one?

That should get things started...

-mark

    Never dug one myself...but have a friend in Belchertown Mass. who
    had such poor drainage (water in cellar) that he dug 3 drywells
    which extended out from three corners of his foundation. He rented
    a backhoe (which he operated himself) and simply* dug a channel
    leading to a big hole (~6 ft. deep).. all of which he filled with
    'coarse' stone and topped off w/ loam. I guess all you want to do is
    provide an effective path for the water to run away from the foundation.
    Almost sounds to simple...I'd be interested to hear how others have
    done it.
    
    MArk
    
    * BTW, If you've never operated a backhoe before....practice a safe
      distance away from the house. My friend Jason wacked his house
      a few times while learning....#@%^&

    I have a slightly different project that runs along these lines:
    
    	I am buying a house with a field stone foundation that must
    be sealed before I can have termite spraying done.  I have talked
    to a masonry guy and got some opinions:
    
    	1. It would cost me $2000-$4000 to have him do it because it is
    	   a lousy job (it's a crawl space) and is labor intensive.
    
    	2. I could mortar the walls myself.  It would take me a long
    	   time but would be cheap (not counting my time).
    
    	3. I could put up plywood forms along the walls (about 70 lineal
    	   feet) and pump concrete between the stone and the forms.
    
    I like the third option except that I have no experience with concrete
    pumps.  How difficult are they to use?  How expensive to rent? How
    much concrete can they pump? Do you rent a truck that's fitted with
    one?
    
    -- Mike Kilian

>    I like the third option except that I have no experience with concrete
>    pumps.  How difficult are they to use?  How expensive to rent? How
>    much concrete can they pump? Do you rent a truck that's fitted with
>    one?
    

	Concrete pumper trucks are not cheap.  I believe most concrete
	(ready mix) companies charge by the hour from the time they leave
	the yard until the time they come home.  Something like $100/hr.

	Maybe different in your area.

    Check out your local swimming pool contractor and see if they will
    come in a "Gunite" (sp?) it for you. Gunite is a sprayed on concrete
    type of surface that they use for in-ground swimming pools. 
    
    I have no idea if this would work or if swimming pool contractors would
    even consider doing it. My brother is considering it for the inside of
    his field stone foundation to stop the air in-filtration, either
    he is off the wall or he has found a niche that the swimming pool
    contractors may look into filling.
    
    Charly
    

    Gunite was another alternative but the crawl space is small enough
    and irregular enough that it would be very awkward and probably
    very expensive, if possible at all.
    
    -- Mike Kilian

The footings are now in and I expect to have the walls poured within the next
day or 2.  I suddenly realized that I don't really know anything about what to
do next.  From watching work in progress, I know that the pins that hold the
forms together get left behind and are usually removed in some way.  Is this
hard to do?  any "tricks"?  I've also noticed that the holes that get left 
behind are usually plugged with something on the inside of the foundation (ie
in the basement).  Is there any need to do anything on the outside prior to
applying the tar?

Finally, are there any tricks or stuff to watch out for when applying the tar?

Just as a point of information, I learned something quite interesting when
getting the footings in.  I had the backhoe guy come out to dig the hole and he
used a transit to make sure it was deep enough.  The forms people came out to do
the footings and had no such device.  They simply put the 2X10's on the ground
and strapped them together.  When I asked them about leveling them they pointed
out that it isn't necessary due to the types of the forms they use.  There were
some boards that must have risen 6" in 16 feet!  When I expressed my shock I was
politely told "we don't do digging" (to make them level).  I quickly volunteered
and did it myself.

Naturally if I do this again (which I highly doubt), I won't make that mistake
again.

The moral to this is when one contractor depends on another, things fall through
the cracks!  Perhaps I should have had them write an interface spec., only then
the project would 6 months late.

-mark

>    From watching work in progress, I know that the pins that hold the
>forms together get left behind and are usually removed in some way.  Is this
>hard to do?  any "tricks"?
 
    Get a 3/4" pipe about 18" long and put it over each pin, and bend
    it back and forth to break it. The pipe is to give you leverage.
     The pins have notches on them, and
    you'll quickly see which direction to bend them to get them to break
    the fastest.  If you use copper pipe, you'll go thru a few pieces
    to do the whole foundation.      
        
>      I've also noticed that the holes that get left 
>behind are usually plugged with something on the inside of the foundation (ie
>in the basement).  Is there any need to do anything on the outside prior to
>applying the tar?

    Yes.  Plug them on the outside too.  I've used both roofing cement
    and hydraulic cement, and found that hydraulic cement works best.
    Make sure you break off the pins on both the inside and outside
    before plugging the holes, because if you plug the ouside, then
    break off the pins on the inside, the force of breaking them could
    loosen the plugs on the outside.
    
>    Finally, are there any tricks or stuff to watch out for when applying the tar?

    Don't put it too high.  I think it's better a foot too low, than
    too high.  The foundation probably won't leak 1 foot below grade,
    but a foot of black tar around your house won't look too good.
    
>    The moral to this is when one contractor depends on another, things
>    fall through the cracks!

    I used Guiguire & DuFresne from Fitchburg.  The guys who did the
    footings didn't do the chimney pad because "they didn't have any
    extra wood".  They said the wall guys would do it.  When the wall
    guys came, I wasn't there, and they didn't do the chimney pad
    because "it wasn't their job".  
    They had to come back later just to do the chimney pad.
      
    

    re: .18
    
>    Finally, are there any tricks or stuff to watch out for when applying
>    the tar? 
    
    YES!
    
    In my experience, you absolutely MUST make sure that the metal pins
    aren't exposed.  They WILL rust and leave holes through your
    foundation.  Patch them thoroughly on the outside.
    
    Don't skimp on the tar.  You want a perfectly seamless application.
    Do it twice or even three times.  Really lay it on.  (I like the
    idea on .17 about staying down below the ground level, but personally,
    I'd cut it closer than a foot.)
    
    Once you have a couple of tons of backfill in there, you're stuck.
    Don't even think of scrimping before that happens.  Spend a day,
    overkill on the application, wear disposable clothes, and then relax
    for a couple of decades, secure in the knowledge that you did your
    best. 
    
    -joet

    For leveling the excavator should do a reasonable job which it sounds
    like he did if he used a transit. The forms crew should also be
    concerned with level, especially with the footings. 
    
    What they do usually is set up the footing boards in the hole. Then
    they find the lowest board using the transit and snap a chalk line
    starting at the top of the lowest board on all of the other boards. So
    even though the boards rise and fall with the grade, they will be able
    to pour to the chalk line for a level footing. 
    
    Charly

    One thing you may want to try is thinning the tar.  I tried heating
    it when I did mine, and that helped somewhat, but later when we
    coated an underground oil tank with foundation tar we hit on the
    idea of thinning it with paint thinner.  Works great - you can even
    put it on with a roller, and it flows better over a rough surface.
    
    It seems that all the thinner evaporates, and the tar coat stays
    intact when dry, but you'll probably have to do 2 or 3 coats to
    build up the same thickness you'd get by just brushing on the tar
    tight out of the bucket.
    

    Since I will be doing all of this in another month (I hope!), I'd
    like to add some more questions.
    
    After tarring the foundation, I am planning on adding the blue
    insulation sheets. I have seen this handled two ways. 
    
    	1) Add insulation sheets and break off above ground pieces after
    	   backfilling.
    
    	2) Leave the full sheet and coat with a stucco material to cover
    	   it.
    
    Any opinions one way or another? Is the outside isulation worth
    it? (Some claim no but I find that hard to believe). How much per
    sheet?
    
    						Thanks,
    							Mark
     

    Re: .23
    
    I'd vote for continuing the foam clear up to the sill plate.  After
    all, the concrete above the ground is the part most exposed to cold!
    A couple of feet below grade and you're above freezing year round.
    
    Last I knew, 1" x 2' x 8' sheets of the tongue & groove extruded
    styrofoam was a little over $5/sheet.
    

re:.-1

If you extend the foam up to the sill, don't you then have a problem with the
way it meets the siding?  

		  |
		  |
		+-+
		| |
		| |
		 ^
		 |
		 +--------- foam			

Now you have a 1" ledge for stuff to accumulate on, or are you planning on 
building the siding out 1" as well?  If so, then I guess it would work out.

On a related topic, what is the method for putting the foam in place?  Do you
simply tar the wall and stick it to it (this was what they did when building
LKG2).  Seemed to make enough sense, but then again, one never knows with all
the shortcuts builders like to take...

-mark

    The siding should overhand the foundation a little anyway, so I
    don't think the foam would stick out a full 1".  But that is a
    problem.  Best thing would be to plan ahead and build in extra
    overhang when building the house.  Lacking that, I think I'd put 
    on some flashing, up under the siding and down over the foam.  
    You'd probably want to get it professionally bent at a sheetmetal 
    shop, so it wouldn't look sloppy.

    re: .18
    
    When I signed a contract with a forms company, the contract
    said the hole must be dug to within 2" of the desired grade.
    I told the excavator that he had to meet this "spec".  So
    after getting close with the backhoe, we did the fine tuning
    with a shovel.  However, if I had not been there, I do not think
    he would have been so particular !
    
    
    Mark
    

Regarding the foam on the outside of the foundation:

DEFINITELY run it up to the siding if you can.  A 10" concrete wall has 
approximately the same insulating value as a double-pane window - about R1-2.
And the part above ground is the part that loses the most heat.  We have 3" of 
foam on ours above grade, and 2" below - and, yes, we had to put the sills on 
overhanging the foundation to allow that.  You should also definitely have a 
metal barrier between the foam and the wood, as a termite shield.  For termites 
to get at your house, they have to have a sheltered means of getting from the 
ground to the wood.  On a normal concrete foundation, you can see the little 
tunnels that they build, so you know they are there.  With the foam, they could 
come up behind the foam and you'd never see them.  You need the metal shield to 
keep them out.

And for sticking the foam to the foundation - don't just stick it in the tar -
the foam will disolve if exposed to the petroleum fumes.  In fact, you should
let the tar dry for at least several days before putting up the foam.  Or, as
an alternative, you can find latex tar (hard to find).  There are also some
latex construction adhesives to use for sticking it to the foundation.  And Dow
makes a product (Insulcrete) specifically for stuccoing the exterior (but watch
out, it's expensive). 

Paul

I'm still trying to imagine the foam running up to the bottem the frame.  Won't
it easily crush when you bang into it (hit it with lawn mower, stab it with a
shovel, etc...)?

-mark

> I'm still trying to imagine the foam running up to the bottem the frame.  Won't
> it easily crush when you bang into it (hit it with lawn mower, stab it with a
> shovel, etc...)?

The Insulcrete stucco is VERY hard, and will stand up to most abuse, even though
it's only a 1/8" layer.  Of course if you really ram it, it will crush,
but is would have to be a pretty extreme hit. 

Paul

    
    Thanks for all the help so far. One question which still has not
    been addressed though is, Is it worth it?
    
    For the house I'm building, it would cost about $400.00 for the foam.
    Given that the gound maintains a 50 degree temp. below 4 ft. for
    most of the year, have those of you who have insulation outside found
    that your cellars are appreciably warmer/drier? On the scale of
    house building costs $400.00 is a drop in the bucket. But all the
    $400 add up and there is also the time to put it on.
    
    							Mark
    
    

>    that your cellars are appreciably warmer/drier? On the scale of
    
Both.  The walls are warmer, thus in summer they don't sweat (condense 
water because their temperature get below the dew point).  The cellar
hangs at about 65 with its heat off (upstairs is 70, cellar windows have 
storms, bulkhead has inside insulated door).  Bear in mind, concrete 
takes a long time to dry out after/as it cures, but afterwoods there is 
NO sweating even with cellar windows open in the current muggyness.

bruce
    

The foundation is in!  I can't believe how quick concrete sets.  They poured
Tuesday afternoon and removed the forms 8:30 AM the next day!!!

Anyhow, this leads to two more questions, the first dealing with the rods that
hold the forms together.  Somewhere in a previous note someone said to bend them
and they break off.  wrong (sort of!  I tried that with mine and the metal 
breaks off arouns 1/4" beyond the wall.  I suppose this would be alright on the
outside wall but on the inside wall I'd like it flush.  Also, I'd think it would
be a pain putting on the hydrolic cememt if I couln't trowel it flush (as in
jointing compund).

Question number two is about termite shields.  Paul had mentioned them being a
must if you run your insulation up to the sill.  Is this simply flashing?  I saw
in a book that you put the shield under the sill before bolting it down.  My
question is where does it go from there?  Can you simply bend it down over the
insulation?  I've heard of termite sheilds that prevent termites from getting in
even if they try tunneling and this certainly wouldn't prevent that, but I think
the idea here is to simply stop them from coming up from behind.  One would 
still need a visual check to catch them tunneling.

Is this essentially the idea?

			 +--------
		FLASHING>| +---++-----+
			 | |   ||     |
			 | |   ||     |
			   |   ||     |
			   |   ||     |
			     ^     ^
			     |     |
			     |     +------- FOUNDATAION
			     +----INSULATION	


-mark

Yup, that's the right idea.  Put it under the sill.  Also, it helps to put a 
bead of construction adhesive under the flashing so that there are no gaps 
under there that termites could crawl through.

Paul

    On my one construction summer job many years ago, little plastic
    cones were placed on the form rods inside the form, so when the
    concrete set, set wire came out of its own little well.  Let's see:
    
    
              |                 |  <---- Wall
              |                 |
              |                 |
               \               /
        ================================= <----- Rod
               /               \   <--
              |                 |     \
              |                 |      Well left by cone

    
    Don't know if they did that for your forms.
    
    To break off the rod, we bent it to the side and cranked it around
    in a circle.  Usually it broke off inside the well.  Then we patched
    the hole.
    
    /Dave

    The rods have notches in them, and that's where they're going to
    break.  There's not much you can do about that.  Hopefully, most
    of the notches are flush with the outside and inside of the walls.
    Somewhere in this file, someone drew a picture of the actual shape
    of the rods.  They're designed to be broken off flush with the walls.
    
    If they really only stick out 1/4", that's not bad.  You can cover
    it with hydraulic cement to smooth it out over an inch or two.
    Don't apply the cement until both sides of the rod are broken off.
    

    On the foundation that we had poured last December we ran into the
    same problem of the snapped rods extending out 1/4 - 1/2" from the
    wall when we followed the advice of just bending them back in forth.
    Then my dad tried removing the cones described in .36 and the rods
    snapped off inside the hole left from the cone.  See if you have
    cones around the rods if you do remove them then bend the rods,
    you will have to fill the holes but atleast you don't have rusty
    rod ends sticking wait for you, your kids or your SO to brush up
    against and get cut!

    Even though they removed the forms the next day, the concrete is still
    curing. I would wait a few days before I started snaping the rods if at
    all possible. Sometimes when snap the rod end off they can pull through
    the foundation a little, then you have a 1/4 exposed on one side and a
    1/2 recessed on the other. If this is the case, just bang them back in
    so that they are fush on both sides. 

    I had a foundation poured last December. They poured in the afternoon
    and strip it the next morning! The wall was steaming after they
    stripped the panels off.
    
    Charly    

Also, remember that the ulitmate strength of the concrete is directly related 
to the drying speed.  So, if it doesn't rain today you might want to go wet 
down your new walls.  Keeping thewm damp (burlap is good at holding the water) 
for a few days will make for a much stronger wall.


			ao

    We had a foundation poured for our addition 3 weeks ago. Since then
    we wet it completely several times per day. I believe, 21 days is the 
    approximate amount of time it takes (or is that should take) for the 
    cement to properly cure. It was quite hot and sunny for the first week 
    so we thought it especially important to keep the foundation as wet as 
    possible then. The rods were still in that entire time and we just
    began breaking them off yesterday. Perhaps a bit overcautious but we 
    decided the foundation is too important to screw up so we'd go by the book.
    
    Kathy  

I just got the nuts from my forms person that you screw onto the lag bolts that
are set into the top of the wall.  He told me he has tons of them since none of
the contractors use them.  According to most contractors, the building code says
that you must set bolts into the foundation but it says nothing about having to
use nuts on them.  The worse part of all this is he was serious!

-mark

    I've seen a lot left off, but just as many have them.
    
    There was an interesting article in Fine Homebuilding about what
    happens in seismically active areas when gravity is the sole force
    holding the sill onto the foundations.  Some great pictures of houses
    where the foundation separated from the house under relatively minor
    earthquakes - the house appears to be 100% intact, so does the
    foundation - unfortunately they're no longer near each other!
    

I think the people who leave the nuts off are the people who have had to 
replace a section of sill after the nuts had rusted in place.

						>>>==>PStJTT

re: .-1

	Interesting thought.  I wonder if I should run around our sills (when 
we finally get that far) with a can of zinc chromate primer spraying all the 
bolts/nuts after they're installed.  Anyone have a better idea?

			Andy Ostrom

    The reason I heard for not bothering to use the nuts is:
    The bolts stick up about 3", and holes are drilled in the 2" thick
    board, and the board is lowered over the bolts.  Any storm/earthquake
    that can lift the whole house 3" straight up, is going to destroy
    the house whether there are nuts holding the sill down or not.
    I believe that the houses shown after sliding off the foundation
    did not have bolts placed in the cement to keep the sill from sliding.
    
    I still would put the nuts on.
    
    As for replacing the sills after the nuts are rusted, just use pressure
    treated wood for the sill when the house is first built, and you'll
    never have to replace a rotted sill.
    
    Jim D.

    The people who built my frame, took a 5 pound sledge and bent the
    bolts over and down flush with the PT wood.
    

re -.1

>    The people who built my frame, took a 5 pound sledge and bent the
>    bolts over and down flush with the PT wood.
    

Sounds like it would have been easier to just put the nuts on...

Re: .48

	They probably didn't have a wrench handy.  :-)

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    
    RE .46
    
    The nuts are required by code in most states.
    
    Mike
    

    A little oil or grease on the threads before you put on the nuts
    ought to do it.  And after all, the odds of ever having to take
    them off are remote.  Even if they do rust on there's always
    the 6-point-socket-and-three-foot-pipe-on-the-breaker-bar trick.

re: nuts

I spent the last couple of days putting on the deck and since the bolts are 
about 2" from the outside, one would think there'd be no problem but...

On the sidewalls where I framed using double joists, I had to notch the joist to
fit over the bolts so nobody could get them off anyways.  I don't know if I had
to double them, but it made me feel better.

re: insulation

I'm still a tad puzzled on how to put this stuff up.  Sounds like first I plug
the holes from the framing wires (or whatever they're called).  This leads to a
question - I bought some water plug and it says not to trowel it on because it
won't bond that well.  I had planned on using a putty knife and doing something
like a jointing compound application.  Is that ok?

Anyhow, the next step is to put up the plastic to cover the tar.  How do I make
it stick?  Will it self-stick?

Next comes the styrofoam.  How to I keep it in place during the backfilling?  I
imagine I could glue the top of it (part above the tar), directly to the 
foundation.  Would that be enough to make it hold?  I suspect that backfilling
can be quite an earth-shaking experience.  8-)

-mark

    
    re: .52 - patching the holes in the foundation.
    
    My husband broke rods off and I'm patching the holes on our new
    addition foundation. I'm using hydrolic cement to fill the holes.
    This cement hardens very quickly so I mix up only enough cement to
    equal a wad that fits in my hand. I have rubber gloves on and use only
    my fingers for application and smoothing.  I get about 10-12 holes
    filled per wad of cement (because any larger wad and it got too hard).
    It really is quite easy and it looks nice.
    
    I'm also chiseling off the extra globs of (now) dried cement that
    had oozed from the forms. I don't know if this is really necessary
    but we thought it a good idea to do so the styrofoam insulation
    fits better.
    
    Kathy
    it is doing a nice job

    To put up the foam, use globs of asphalt cement on the back. Masking
    tape is also handy to hold it together, especially at the corners.
    
    Charly

I thought Paul Weiss had said that petroleum based products were bad for the
styrofoam and that's why he used plastic liner.

-mark

>I thought Paul Weiss had said that petroleum based products were bad for the
>styrofoam and that's why he used plastic liner.

Yup.  The fumes from any petroleum based products will melt the stryofoam.

Paul

Lindsay Publications, PO Box 12, Bradley, IL 60915  815/468-3668

The current flyer lists two books of interest:

Concrete Form Construction by Cairl E. Moore, 
  8x10 paper 218 pg Cat no. 561 $18.50

The catalog blurb:
     "Obviously, if you're making concrete overshoes for your 
mother-in-law, all you need are a couple of pails. But if you're 
going to pour footings, walls, piers, stairs, a patio, swimming pool, 
basement, garage floor, or a driveway, you should have a copy of this 
excellent technical school textbook. You'll learn how to build forms 
from common materials, use prefabricated forms, use clamps and toggle-ties,
dampproof foundation walls, anchor sills, form up stairs, and much 
more. This book is somehwat expensive, but good.  If you're going to 
spend a small fortune on ready-mix, this book is cheap insurance that 
you'll be doing the job right. Easy to read. Well illustrated. Get a 
copy. Oh! and give your mother-in-law my regards."

Concrete Technology by George White,
8 1/2 x 11 paper 136 pg Cat no. 522 $14.95

The catalog blurb:
     "It's amazing how little people (and that includes you and me) know 
about concrete. Some people even think that concrete dries by evaporation! 
If that were the case, the thousands of yards of concrete in dams would 
have taken years to set up!
     Find out what concrete is, Portland cement is, why it's called that, 
why concrete must be mixed and worked the way it is, and a whole lot 
more.
     Chapters include: uses of concrete, Portland cement, mixing water 
for concrete, aggregates, air-entrained concrete, selection and design 
of concrete mixtures, sampling and testing of plastic concrete, 
ready-mix, job mixing, tools for placing and finishing slabs, placing 
concrete, finishing, curing, joints, estimating, reinforcement, 
concreting during hot weather, and during cold weather.
     This book is rather small, but it's loaded with info on an 
extremely useful construction material. You should know what's here. 
It's simply explained and easy to read. After all, this is a technical 
school textbook. That also makes the price higher than it should be. 
But I can't do much about it. Practical info throughout. Consider it."

Glenn

    Re. The fumes from any petroleum based products will melt the stryofoam. 

    I recently removed the foam insulation from the one end of my house
    where an addition went. I had previously (6 years ago) painted the
    walls with the foundation tar and then used "globs of asphalt cement"
    to hold up the foam sheets. When I scrap and chipped off the foam
    sheets, there didn't appear to be any damage to the foam from either
    the foundation tar or the asphalt cement. 
    
    Charly

Thank you to all the people who have contributed to this particular 
note! You may have saved my dad's life, or at least his mental health 
and pocket book.

He is putting up a two story 18x11 addition and was going to do 
the foundation himself. I printed the replies to this note (checking first 
for company confidential material) and took them to him. The cautions 
urged here coupled with the $600 DEPOSIT a rental place wanted for 
just the form brackets and the cost of the plywood for the forms never 
to be used again convinced him otherwise. So we "just" did the 
footings and let the boys with the big truck (that crushed the 
driveway) do the rest.

John H.

    
    Are "termite shields" actually sold in stores or does one have to
    buy flashing?  If one has to use flashing, does flashing come in
    plane L shape -- and how long do pieces come.  How reasonable is
    it to use sheets of aluminum? Could the sheet be cut and L shaped 
    precisely enough by a DIY or is this something we'd need to take
    to a sheet metal shop. I'm really looking for the best but easiest
    (naturally) fix.
    
    Thanks for any advice....Kathy  

Just buy plain aluminum flashing at any lumberyard.  You want it wide enough to 
be able to drill holes in it an set it over the anchor bolts on the foundation,
and have 1/2" or so past the edge of the insulation. (assuming new construction)
To bend it, just clamp it between a couple of 2x4's and bend it over with a 
hammer - the siding is going to cover it so it doesn't need to be a nice 
aesthetic bend.

Paul

    I'm looking for prices on foundation insulation in the Eastern Mass
    area. I have heard prices everywhere from $8.25 to $11.00 per sheet
    (2", 2'x8').
    
    If anyone else has been pricing the stuff I'd appreciate it if you
    could post your results here to save me (and hopefully others) some
    time.
    
    						Thanks,
    
    							Mark
    

    
    I recently bought 50 pieces of 2'x8'x2" foam foundation insulation
    at Wickes Lumber on Rte. 27 in Acton for $8.50 ea.  Their single
    price was significantly higher but they gave a discount for the
    volume order.
    
    Kathy

I'm looking for opinions about what to do with construction projects that span
the winter.  Once I get the roofing done (in another 2-3 weeks) and the windows
in (they're on order), I want to call it quits on the outside for the winter.
I'm planning on covering the whole thing with Tyvek and hope that it will 
protect me.  I just don't want to think about siding until spring.

Are there any general purpose tips that anyone can add to what I want to do?

-mark

    I am planning to build an addition to my house in the Spring/Summer
    time frame. I don't know for sure how/where the addition will be
    be built cause there are many possibilities. I do want the finnished
    product blend well with the house so that it won't look too radical.
    Can you suggest :
    
    1. Some good magazine for addition project
    2. Some good/reliable designer/contractor/architect in the Medford
       area ( 5 miles north of Boston )

    Here are some magazines that I like to read on a regular basis:
    
    	o Practical Homeowner (formerly New Shelter) - a number of back
          issues dealt with additions. Try your local library.
    
    	o Fine Homebuilding - most of their additions cost big bucks
          but it's nice to dream. You might get some good ideas.
    
    If you can stand Bob Vila, get a copy of his "This Old House" book
    or video. I believe he deals with additions somewhat.
    
    Finally, if you're really concerned about matching the original
    style of your house, it might be worth it to spend the extra
    money for an architect to draw up the plans for your addition.
    
    I did an addition two years ago and wish I had seen a architect
    as there were some things I hadn't thought of that would have made
    for a nicer finished product.
    
    Best of luck.
                                 

    re: .1  how do the architect charge ? Do they charge a flat fee
    ? by the hours work ? or % of total cost of the addition ?
    
    Any body have a copy of the " this old house " addition project
    in VHS format that I can borrow ?    

    
    I am 75% through an addition. We are actually planning this as phase
    1 of a ~5 year whole house renovation/additions.  We started with
    the easiest piece, a passive solar 18 x 26 family room.  My husband
    and I  had several..ahem "discussions" about whether to hire an
    architect because this part was very straight forward, nothing fancy
    or difficult. (One of us thought an architect would be a waste of
    money right from the start.) We interviewed 2 architects and we
    decided architect services  would cost too much for this "very simple" 
    addition.  The 2 quotes were based on a range of 6-10% of total
    addition cost for architect 1 and 5-7% of total addition cost for arch.
    2.  The percent range would depend on difficulty of job. Trick here
    was both of these guys decided what the total addition cost to us would
    be (a figure that felt like they were pulling out of thin air). The
    second guy was much more reasonable in his cost estimation and more
    willing to negotiate (younger and more interested in the work). For 
    example, arch 1 told us this addition would cost us 85K when we were 
    thinking around 25K. It became clear it didn't matter that we had all 
    our quotes, material prices, etc. to back up our 25K cost. He was
    still going to come to a figure of 6% of 85K.
    
    Now that I'm 75% through this "simple addition" I am a lot wiser.
    Even though my husband and I had lots of renovation experience and
    did tons of homework, we still missed so many things that have cost
    us extra money, mega stress, and lot longer construction time. (I
    think I've read this many many times in this notes file.) Considering 
    all that, architect number 2 prices weren't all that unreasonable. 
    I realize now that part of the architect problem we had was not
    knowing how to talk with them or know just how to use their 
    expertise (or maybe we're the types that have to learn by doing.) The 
    best plan probably would have been for us to draw up our own plans
    first and then consult with the architect for their approval, to fill
    in holes.  If we used the architect just for consultation he would
    have charged hourly.  When we get to phase 3 of our addition, (IF
    we get that far) we will "definitely" use an architect.  I had read
    every book I could find on building, but I really didn't pay much
    attention to the sections in the books about how to work with an
    architect (or the variety of ways which you can use one).
    
    Much success of the building/additon is in the planning.  We did
    tons of planning and still made tons of mistakes.  I couldn't 
    afford to buy all the books and magazines in print on building, but my 
    public library is filled with them. I strongly recommend you utilize
    the public library for your research.
    
    The "This Old House" is not one video tape to borrow. It is a PBS
    (Channel 2 or 11) program on weekly with different topic(s) covered
    each week. The show is talked about more in other notes. 
    
    Finally, you really don't HAVE to do all this homework. It does
    take LOTS of time. You can just go hire an architect to "come up with 
    something" and hire a contractor to "put it together" but in my
    opinion innocence is sure suicide in the building trade. You are far
    more apt to pay more and get a lousy job when you don't know what you
    want, what it's supposed to look like, what materials you want the
    builders to use, how it's done, and have a rough idea on how much it 
    should cost.
    
    Kathy

My house is a two story center entrance colonial with full basement. I'm 
planning to build a 20 x 26 addition attached to one side.  This is the 
floor plan :
    
            <------    ----------------------------------------
                       |             |            |           |
                       |             |            |           |
                       |             |            |           |
         bed-room      |  bed-room   |  fam-room  |  din-room |
                       |             |            |           |
                       |             |---------   +   --------|
            <------    |----------   |    hall way     |      |
               n |     |                -----------    -------|
               e |     |                |  S |  B |           |
               w | 6'  |                |  T |  A |           |
    bed-room   w |     |  Living room   |  A |  T |  kitchen  |
               a |     |                |  I |  H |           |
               l |     |                |  R |    |           |
             <-l-----  -----------------+    +-----------------
                                           ^
                                    front entrance
    
    
    What I plan to do is to build the addition attached to the left
    side of the house. It will be 20 ( outward ) and 26 ( depth of the
    house ). I would like to knock down the left-side wall of the living
    room. The current liv-rm size is 12 1/2 x 14 1/2. I would like to
    extend it out 6' to make it a 20 x 12 1/2.  The rest of the addition
    would be a 20 x 12 1/2 bed-room and a 14 x 12 1/2 bed-room.
    
    Questions:
    
    1.  Can the left-side of the living room wall on the first floor
        be knocked down and move 6' outward without putting up a header
        and supporting columns.
    
    2.  The addition will have a full basement. So I need to cut an
        entrance ( 4' wide ) through the exsisting basement to gain
        access to the additional area. The exsisting basement is field
        stone type of foundation wall. Is it safe to cut through the
        wall ?
    
    3.  How much would it ( roughly ) cost to excavate and build the
        foundation and the wall of this size  ( 20' x 26' ) ?
    
    4.  The addition will be one story ( floor ) only, so I will
        subcontract out to frame the addition. I plan to do the siding
        roofing, interior wall myself. How much the framing would cost,
        assuming 2x4 construction ?
    
    Thanks for any help ?
    
    
    

    1.  Can the left-side of the living room wall on the first floor
        be knocked down and move 6' outward without putting up a header
        and supporting columns.
    
>>>  	walls that support the peak sides are typically not load bearing.  I
>>>  	knocked 18 feet out of the side of my house and did not use any 
>>>  	structual headers.  I did put in some 2X6's to tie the wall together but
>>>  	they don't really provide any structure.  HOWEVER - you should consult
>>>  	either an architect or structural engineer to be safe (and legal).

    2.  The addition will have a full basement. So I need to cut an
        entrance ( 4' wide ) through the exsisting basement to gain
        access to the additional area. The exsisting basement is field
        stone type of foundation wall. Is it safe to cut through the
        wall ?
    
>>>	I don't se why not, but I have NO experience in this area.

    3.  How much would it ( roughly ) cost to excavate and build the
        foundation and the wall of this size  ( 20' x 26' ) ?
    
>>>	I did a 12X50 one (use your own conversion techniques) for about $4500.
>>>  	I think the foundation itself was around $3200

    4.  The addition will be one story ( floor ) only, so I will
        subcontract out to frame the addition. I plan to do the siding
        roofing, interior wall myself. How much the framing would cost,
        assuming 2x4 construction ?
    
>>>	This is the easy one.  Draw out what you want, add up the pieces and
>>>  	start pricing.  As a clue, if you assume 8 foot walls, then each 4 foot
>>>  	section takes:
>>>  
>>>  		-	1 4X8 sheet of 1/2" plywood
>>>  		-	3 2X4's for the verticle
>>>  		-	1-1/2 2X4's for the sole plate and 2 header plates
>>>  
>>>  	The flooring and roofing can be done in a similar manner.

-mark
    
    
    

        Question about utility lines :
    
        The house is in the city. So there are sewer line and water
        line comes into the house from the main line. I went to city
        engineering department trying to find out how and where they
        come into the house. They don't know anything about the water
        line, know the direction ( roughly ) but not the depth the sewer
        line comes into the house. I don't feel comfortable to have
        someone excavate the ground without knowing exactly where the
        water line and sewer line are. Cause they may break/damage the lines.
        Anything suggestion on how to handle this ?
    

    Finding the water line is usually easy.  There should be a cap over
    the shutoff value near or in the street.  The line probably makes
    a moderately straight line from the shutoff to where it emerges
    in the basement.
    
    (Bad story: the town cut mine once when digging in the street. Our
    soil was loose sand, the hole in the basement wall was 6" in diameter
    and the shutoff was burried under lots of ice.  Very big flood!!!!)
    
    You should be able to locate the sewer in the basement too, but
    not in the street.  If the street had sewers when this house was
    built, the sewer probably goes relatively straight out.  Also, the
    city should know the depth, as this system works on gravity with
    the highest possible point being the house end of the pipe.
    

    Some states have changed their code to using 2x6 for outside walls.
    I don't know if Mass. has yet but my addition has 2x6's allowing
    me to put 6 inch insulation in walls. Maybe you should check it
    out.
    
    Bob
        

Are you saying some states are forcing people to use 2X6's?  This sounds rather
unusual to me.  The only reason I could think of for doing that would be to
encourage more insulation, but it's well understood that there are many ways to
improve the R-Value of your walls without going to 2X6's.  Now if states were
mandating greater R-Values, I could begin to understand that one.

Are you sure of your facts?

-mark

    I just completed a 12x28 addition to my house, and priced both the
    "finished" job and "just framing" ....  with costs ranging from
    about $30/sq.ft to $60/sq.ft.  I would imagine with you doing alot
    more of the work than I was willing to do you might be able to get
    your framing done for less than $30.  Also, of course, alot depends
    on where you live...these were Burlington Mass. prices, so if you
    are further out, your costs may be considerably less. 
    
    As for all of the details on the underground stuff...I think the
    best bet is to get a good foundation person, explain your concern,
    and be there when they are digging.  I also found that the city
    had little to no information on *anything*...talk about a bunch
    of wasted time and energy trying to work with the city "officials"!!
    
    I opted for the 2x6 construction for the support, to make the 
    insulation better (yes, I know you can do it in the 4" range,
    but it just seemed easier to go with 6")...and as my house was
    originally built 75+ years ago it used weird sized lumber--
    like 3x8 or something...so matching up walls etc was easier.
    Of course, I didn't realize what problems it would cause with the
    windows!!! They are typically made for 4" walls, so had to have
    extension jambs built, etc. ... but all the interior woodwork was
    custom design anyway, so it wasn't too bad.
    
    I wish you luck!!  Hope your contractor is **much** better than
    mine was!!  
    
    Debbie
    

    
    re .5:	Case in piont: My parents bought a new house in Biddeford
    Maine (split entry ranch) and it came with 2x6's. When my father
    asked the builder why 2x6's he said that Maine is going for higher
    R values and that other states will probably be following. 
    
    This goes along with what the framer that framed my addition said.
    He said that he does work in Maine and they require R-19 in outside
    walls so he just does ALL his framing using 2x6's in Maine,N.H.
    and Mass. He said that the easiest whay to get R-19 is using 2x6's
    with 6" insulation in outside walls. He is the one that told me
    that Mass. is thinking of making this requirement. Of course he
    could also be yanking my chain.
    
    
    Bob

    I live in Medford, Mass, which is about 6 miles north of Boston
    and 6 miles south of 128 and is next to 93. Does anyone know some
    good ( reliable ) contractor and/or subcontractor who does work in
    this area ? I am planning to start the excavating in mid-April and
    hope to finish the addition before winter. I need recommendation
    on :
    
    1.  excavator - to dig the foundation hole
    2.  mason - to form/build the footing & foundation wall
    3.  carpenter - to frame the addition
    4.  plummer - to do plumming, planning to add one 3/4 bath in bed-room
        and a 1/2 bath in basement, + ....
    5.  electrician - to upgrade the electrical system from 60 amp to
        150 amp ( would 150 amp be enough ? we have gas FHW heat )
    6.  Plaster - to install sheet-rock
    
    I would like to have as many referral as possible and will have
    them bid on the project. Thanks
    
    If any body has done addition on your house lately, and if you have
    taken a picture of the addition & the house, can you send me a copy
    ? I'll pay for the cost of developing the film. I would like to
    see how addition + the house looks like after its done. Prefer
    single story addition to a 2 story house.
    
    My mail stop is NIO/A02 and my name is Ken. Cheng.
    
    
   

    The fact that you are asking for recommendations on all the trades
    leads me to believe that you are planning on acting as the general
    contractor.  Don't do it.  Find a general contractor (who may also
    be the carpenter) and let them find all the others.  If you act
    as the general contractor, you will
    
    	- have to act as a scheduler.  With a job like this, there
    	  are some things that have to be done in order, and some 
    	  things that don't.  Since you don't know that "critical
          path", you run the risk of having one tradesman ready, but
          the project not being ready for him.  And since he has several
    	  jobs lined up, you may lose him for a long time.  In addition,
    	  tradesmen are notoriously independent; they are notorious
    	  for not showing up when they say they will.  They will drive
    	  you crazy.
    
    	- get gouged.  A general contractor knows how much a given job
    	  will cost.  If you don't, they will charge you a whole lot
    	  more than the going rate.
    
    	- end up in the middle of disputes, both professional and personal.
    	  We had an experience where we only were dealing with two 
    	  subcontractors, and ended up mediating both types of disputes.
    
    	- not know anything about the reputation of the tradesman's
      	  work.
    
    So my advice is to ask for recommendations for general contractors
    (which unfortunately I can't provide in your locale), talk to and
    get quotes from several, ask for references and check them out.
    Select one, and let THEM get the plumber, electrician, etc.
    
    Good luck with your addition.
    
    Clay

>        The fact that you are asking for recommendations on all the trades
>    leads me to believe that you are planning on acting as the general
>    contractor.  Don't do it.  

    Just to make sure you hear both sides:
    
    I acted as GC for my house and had very few problems.  I guess I
    was prepared, and never really expected any contractors to show
    up on time, etc., so I planned for that.  You just have to accept
    the fact that a contractor won't return your phone calls, however
    they don't mind if you keep calling them until you reach them.
    
    I got a couple estimates on most of the work although some contractors
    I got on recommendations, and knew that the prices was good.  I
    might have just been lucky, I don't know.  But I've heard enough
    horror stories about problems with GC's that I didn't think they
    were worth the 20% that they charge, just to make phone calls.

    If I were to do it again, I would never consider hiring a GC.
    
>        	- not know anything about the reputation of the tradesman's
>      	  work.

    How does hiring a GC tell you anything about a tradesman's work?
    A GC is going to care less about the quality of the work than you
    do, so you'd have a better chance of quality work if you pick the
    tradesman yourself.
    

    I will think about if hiring a GC or not. Thanks for the 2 replies.

    I will also ask recommendation for architect, and GC. I will need
    someone to draw the blue print before I can get the permit. I know
    architect does that at a high price, or can GC or any other trademan
    do that and is acceptable by the city ?

    re: .11
    
    If it's a "simple" addition, an architect isn't necessary.  The
    general contractors and tradespeople deal with the town all the
    time, so they know what the town requires.  If you can, get the
    permit in the name of the GC or tradesperson.  That way, if something
    is not done according to regulations, they will come after the
    GC/tradespersion, not you.
    
    Clay

    When I did my addition I checked with an architect.  The price
    for the architect would have been about 1/3 of the total I
    wanted to spend!  Most framer's can provide drawings for you.
    

    
    
    	Before I built my addition I wanted to know how much it would
    cost to have a GC to it. I got 3 estimates that ranged from $15,000
    to $30,000 !!!!! This was for a 16X20 room off of one side of a
    cape. I ended up building it myself and also put a full bath in
    which was not quoted in the GC price. It cost me $13,000 for everything
    including the carpet, blinds towels.......EVERYTHING.
    
    	I still can't believe there was such a difference in price amoung
    the contractors. If you look at note 1478 and a few replies later
    I entered in the actual costs of everything.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    
                                         ------basement ceiling
                                         |
                                         v    
                                   -----------------------------
                                   |                _______
              basement window -\   |                |     |
                                \ ---               |     |exsisting
                                  | |               |     |basement
           addition <--------     ---               |     |door
                                   |                |     |
      -----------------------------+                |     |
                              ^    |                |     |
  soil ( grass ) app.4ft deep |    |                |     |
                              v    |                |     |
    ------------------------------------------------|     |---------
           
    		level ground ( driveway )
    
    
    Question about frost line.
    
    See above drawing. The left side, where I am planning to put up
    the addition, has soil ( nice grass yard ) about 4 ft above the
    leveled drive-way which is part of the front yard. The basement
    door ( walkout ) is leveled with the drive-way. My question is :
    Where is the frost line ? It is relative to the top of the left
    side yard which is 4 ft above ground, or relative to the drive-way 
    which is leveled with the basement door ( which is about 3 inches
    above the basement floor. This would determine how deep I have to
    excavate.
        

>    If you can, get the
>    permit in the name of the GC or tradesperson.  That way, if something
>    is not done according to regulations, they will come after the
>    GC/tradespersion, not you.
    
I disagree.  No matter whose name the permit is in, if there's a building
code problem on your property, you have a problem.  The inspector will give
his/her instructions to whomever is present at the inspection, regardless of
whose name is on the permit.  The financial arrangements for the work to
carry out those instructions are then between you and your contractor(s). 
(In a clear case of the contractors screwing up, they should make good for
free, but if you specified something that doesn't meet code, they have a
good case for charging you more.)  The point is that the name on the permit 
doesn't change anybody's legal responsibilities.

However, if you need to change contractors in the middle of a project,
things may go more smoothly if the permit is in your own name. 

    re: .16
    
    Perhaps this varies by town.  This was the advice given me by my
    town's building department.  But I agree that if something isn't
    built to code, you've got a problem, regardless of whose name is
    on the permit, and that if it was their screwup, they should make
    good.  It seems to me that if the permit is in a professional's
    name that they have just about NO excuse for doing something against
    code.
    
    Clay

    Re: Frost Line 
    
    The answer is BOTH! The frost line is the typical depth that the frost
    will penetrate the ground in your area. Usually related to depth but
    also depends on soil composition and ground cover and it follows the
    contors of the land. So four feet down from where ever your standing is
    the frost line, NOT four feet down from the highest area of your yard. 

    Another thing to consider is soil type and ground cover. In your case
    your lawn area may be frozen down to 3 feet while the soil under your
    driveway could be frozen down to 4 or 5 feet. Because your driveway
    dosn't have a layer of insulating snow over it. 

    Charly

    
    .18 is right......When they excavated for my addition they had to
    `step' the trench down for the form/foundation to maintain 4-5ft
    deep since my house is on a small hill with a walkin basement(drive
    way is not the same level as back of house).
    
    Bob

    1. Who can help me to determine how deep to excavate ? the excavate
       professonal ? I try not to hire general contractor/builder if
       I can act as g.c.
    
    2. Who can help to locate/draw the exact line for the area that
       has to be excavate and where the form for the footing be formed
       ?
    
    3. Who, beside the architect ( cause too much $$ ), can draw a complete
       building plan for the addition so that I can use it to apply
       the building permit ? or can the framer, plummer, electrician, mason,
       etc...each draw the individule plan and I just present them to the
       city for the permit ?

    4. My co-worker told me that I may hire/pay vocational school to
       to do the addition. They would only charge for material cost
       and would provide free labor. Has anyone had any experience with
       vocational school ? any comments ?
    

    
    	Re .-1
    
    	The contractor putting in the foundation will know how deep
    to put the footings, thats pretty standard.
    
    	As far as what the exact line will be there really is no exact
    line. When my addition went in I said I wanted the foundation to
    be 16x19 and thats what I got. My house is 24 feet wide so the forms
    guy centered the foundation 4 feet in on both sides.
    
    	Most additions do not require plans. The building permit form
    is very extensive as to what your going to do. You also have to
    include a graph paper outline that describes how the addition will
    look in relation to whats there. They will also want to see where
    the septic system or sewer line is on that drawing.
	If the addition is just a standard box off one side of the house
    you can just about give the inspector a drawing on a napkin and
    they will give you the permit. They just want the money for the
    application.
        
    	As far as the vocation school doing this, HA !
    They do excellent work but your name gets put into a hat with everyone
    elses name then they pick one. You must verify that you are able
    to pay for the complete project. They are very selective in the
    type of job they accept.

    	I went thru all this last year when I built a 16x19 addition
    for my cape with a full bath and the whole process was real easy
    !!!!
    
    
    	-Steve-
    
    

    

re: Building Permit

In our town I had to include a set of prints with my permit including a 
structural x-section in 3 places.  Apparently they figure they can "trust"
the pros to do it right and someone like me needs to go the extra distance to
prove I know what I'm doing.

I know someone who wanted to save the expense of an architect and went to some
kind of designer who charged less and wasn't the real thing.  Only cost him $700
(for a 50K addition), but when I looked at his plans that were WRONG (a wall was
misplaced throwing off the entire drawing).

However, if you think you know exactly what you want, perhaps finding someone
who does plans (such as a draftsman) will suffice.

As far as "trusting" the foundation people to do it right, BULLSHIT!  I did and
wound up with footings that are a couple of inches too high.  Doesn't sound too
bad, but the result is that I'll have a step separating my new cellar from the 
old.

-mark

    re: .22
    I have a rough idea of how the addition should be and can draw it
    on the paper too. Its the DETAILs that I may not have. e.g. where
    is the opening for windows/doors, what's the exact size for the
    opening, and how they should be constructed, how deep to excavate
    ? and to form the footing, and to build the wall so that the finished
    new floors ( basement & first floor ) are even with the old floors.
    Its some of these little details, if not correctly done up front,
    may cause big problems later. If the designer draw the plan, I should
    be able to look at it and see if that make sense, and yet I don't
    have enough knowledge to draw the detailed plan. Sort of like a
    non-programmer who can't write good programs but can look at the
    code to see if they make sense.
    
    The floor plan for the addition that I have in mind is : the 12.5
    x 20 living room is surrounded by three bedrooms ( one on the back and
    two on the right side ), the left side of the living room has big
    picture window, and a large entertainment center is against the
    front wall. I think it may look rare with 3 bedrooms surrounding 
    the living room. Are there trade professonals that help designing
    interior for residential house ? and how do they charge for service
    ?
    

    I come up with a wild-ass guess of $32,200.  He's probably not too
    far out of line (not that my guess is worth much).
    
    Figure for openers that $60/square foot is probaby a pretty good
    rough estimate for the addition, which works out to $25,200.  I
    get anothr $7,000 out of the additional work you're having done
    too.  Architects ain't cheap either, remember.
    
    It's hard to judge whether it's reasonable or not because it all
    depends on whether or not he does a good job.  If he does a good
    job, a price that is slightly high doesn't matter much.  If he
    does a bad job, a rock-bottom cheap price is still too much.
    
    Personally, I wouldn't get a flat roof; I'd tie it into the existing
    roofline, just for aesthetics and (probably) better resale value
    if and when you go to sell the place.

	It's difficult to to give an acurate assesment like this but
    just to give you some idea...
    
       	Using your figures of added living space, you are adding about
    420 square feet. If you use $60 sq/ft as a benchmark for a turnkey
    project that comes out to $25,200.

    	A new furnace should run you about $2,000 installed for an
    efficient model.
    
    	$31,900 - $25,200 - $2,000 = $4,700 left over for your bathtub,
    extra doors & walls, architect's labor and permits.
    
    	Granted the builder is going to make some money but it doesn't 
    sound abnormally high to me. How much value will the project add
    to your house?  Keep in mind that all of these figures vary
    tremendously on geographic locations.
    
    
    Glenn

    Is this the only estimate you got?
    If you're not sure the estimate is good, get two more.
    

    Without too much thought put into it, I might expect a flat roof
    to be MORE expensive than pitched.  Isn't there a lot more that
    needs to be done on a flat roof to prevent leaks than on one that
    is pitched??
    
    At the very least I'd expect well tarred, overlapped, heavy roll
    roofing.  I'm not sure how that compares to shingles in price.

    
    Another vote against the flat roof, unless you want to deal with
    roof maintenance every couple of years (frequency increases with
    age of roof) and water leaks which *will* eventually happen.  In
    my opinion they also make additions look like cheap additions.
    
    As for the columns, what does the local building inspector say about
    this setup?
    
    Phil
    

    I wouldn't expect much of a difference -at least as a %age of the
    total cost- between lally columns and a foundation.
    Indeed, if it were my house -and i have been thinking of such an
    addon- i would want the foundation for additional garage/cellar space.
    I would also want a peaked roof
    
    
    				herb
    
    
    

    RE: .7
    
    >> As for the columns, what does the local building inspector say
    >> about this setup?
    
    Our contractor, who knows the town codes (supposedly) thinks that
    the town won't have any problem with this.

    Oh yeah, btw, the contractor will put 8 inches of insulation
    in the new floor -i.e,  6 inches regular (?) and 2 inches rigid.
    That should be enough, right?
    
    Boy, if the foundation really is $2000 (does that include digging
    too? or only the concrete?) then we have a real rip-off on our hands.
    But then again - there were two others who gave estimates in a the
    same ballpark range.....So what's the deal?

    I doubt that you're saving that much with the columns.  The contractor
    will need to get a machine in there for a day to dig the holes.
    In the same day he could probably dig for a real foundation.
    He'll need to have a concrete truck come to pour the footings
    for the columns.  For a couple hundred bucks more in concrete
    he could pour a continuous footing.  Somebody will have to set
    up sonotube or other sorts of forms for the columns; a similar
    crew could probably set up prefab forms for walls in about the
    same time.  The concrete truck will have to come back to pour
    the columns; it could come to pour a wall just as well.  Your
    main saving is going to be in the cost of the concrete, little
    or none in labor or machinery time.  It might be $1000 less, maybe.
    Materials in building a house are CHEAP by comparison to labor and 
    machinery costs.  I don't think you're saving much labor or machinery 
    cost.
    Spend a few extra bucks to blend the new roof into the existing
    house in a finished and aesthetic manner; otherwise the whole thing
    is going to look like hell.  The n+1 cost of doing it while the
    addition is being built is a heck of a lot less than trying to fix
    it up later.  Do what you REALLY want the first time around, even
    if you have to scrape a little.  If you can't do it all right now,
    I think you'd be better off to postpone finishing off one of the
    rooms inside, perhaps, rather than trying to skimp on the foundation
    or the roof.

If you want some numbers, I put in a 12X50 full foundation on three sides for
a total of around 85' or so (including a bulkhead and a bumpout) for around
$3200 which is a little less than $40 per foot.  The floor cost around $700
and the excavating was around another $700 including the backfilling.  I also
had crushed stone under the floor for another couple of hundred bucks. 
Finally, I spread all the fill around the rest of my yard rather than trucking
it out.

So, based on the size of your requirements you can make the appropriate
adjustments.

-mark

    re: .11
    
    This is right about the realative costs of columns and foundations.
    The price differential isn't as great as you think.
    
    Also, tie in the new roof to the old one. It shouldn't be that much
    more money and the risk of not doing it is VERY substantial. You'ld
    (You'll??) be amazed at the amount of damage a small leak can do
    in a relatively short time.
    
    And, the flat roof will be more expensive.
    
    Alan

    The difference between a foundation and your column design is 
    probably the studding and finish siding to hide the columns.
    Then there are the blocks or footings to 1 foot above grade.
    Flat roofs are very expensive, when built not to leak. Seams 
    break, water collects and needs a place to go. 

    
    
    We are considering putting an addition onto our 200 year old post
    and beam house.  Basically, the house is a cape with an ell off
    the back.  The ell is also post and beam and is currently one story.  
    We would like to make it two stories.  The attic of the ell is 
    about six feet high, and the ell has settled quite a bit (probably
    about six inches over 22 feet).  Our question is should the 
    addition be built as a post and beam or can it be built using
    modern framing techniques?  I would like the effect of post and
    beam since that is what we have in the rest of the house, however
    the overriding concern is cost.  The size of the addition would
    be 15x22 and would consist of a second floor with a full dormer
    off one side (22'long).  What would the cost difference be between 
    post and beam and regular construction?  We plan on only having the 
    framing and roofing done and finishing everything else ourselves.
    How would the settling of the house affect the decision?  
     
    Doris

    FIRST:
    Find out what the cause of the settling is, and correct it, or 
    be ABSOLUTELY sure that 
    	1. it's stopped
	2. you won't EVER want to fix it later
    If you don't have a secure foundation, anything you do on top of
    it is living on borrowed time.  I got part of my foundation replaced
    this past spring (see recommendations under "General Contractors"
    someplace (2007.*?)), and IF the guy knows what he's doing it's not that
    big a deal, amazingly enough.  Not cheap, but not as colossal a
    project as one might suspect.  There are some listings in the
    Worcester yellow pages for people who do that kind of thing too,
    who might be better than the guy I got.
    You DO need to get somebody who specializes in it; most contractors
    think about the house collapsing on top of them and panic, and don't
    even want to look at it.

    
    
    The foundation has been reinforced with concrete.  It's a field
    stone foundation and the reinforcement isn't very old.  We are
    (pretty) sure the settling occured before the reinforcement was
    put in.  There are also lally columns that support the floor joists.
    Mostly our concern is how the settling will affect the ability to
    build square on the second floor.  We also really want to know about
    whether to build post and beam or standard.
    
    Doris

    
    	I don't see the post and beam vs. 2x construction as your main
    monetary concern.  I'd say your main concern should be the settling
    which is close to 3/8" per foot, and which seems excessive to me.
    Can you notice a difference in slope between the addition ell, and
    the main building using a reference line?  Seems that you'll have a
    harder time getting things level, rather than square.  I'm wondering
    if you should consider jacking up the ell and getting some concrete
    work done first, but I imagine this would raise hell with the inter-
    ior.
    	Off hand, I'd say the difference in cost between materials is
    not altogether that great, though the post and beam would be the
    greater of the two, since you'd probably have to have the pieces
    special made, unless a kit just happens to match the dimensions
    that you are seeking to build.  If you like the post and beam effect
    than go that way and try to save money on other things that you
    can do later.
    	I'd get a couple of contractors to come look at the job and
    see what their opinion of the existing structure is, and what will
    be required to add on the upper floor.  My worry is that the added
    weight of the second floor may be too much for the foundation, and
    you will likely see more settling.

    I believe that the last paragraph of .3 is your first main concern.
    I have a friend that use to move houses for a living.  If you would
    like, I could have him or his past employer contact you.  Let me
    know through mail.
    
    From many conversations I've had with him, it's really not that
    hard to level a house with minimum damage to the finish work.  It
    does take a lot of patience and the proper equipment.
    
    As far as post and beam vs. 2 x 4 or 6 construction, you can accomodate
    contemporary framing to post and beam but it throw off the whole
    scheme of your exixting house.
    
    Best of luck.....................Greg

    
    
    The only area of concern I have regarding making the ell level is
    that there is a shed off the ell which has been turned into a
    sunroom. I don't know how it would affect the sunroom if we were
    to try to move the ell into a more level position.  
    

    
    
    Oh, yes.  The sunroom floor is made of slate.  It does not have
    a basement.  There is no way to get  under it right now.
    
    Doris

    
    I have heard of a type of modular housing and/or additions that
    can be added to an existing house.  The modular additions are
    post and beam...supposedly they are supposed to be alot faster 
    to put the additions on.  I have no idea of the quality, but
    I can get the name of the salesperson if you are interested
    in looking into it.
    
    Susan
    

Building a level second floor on top of a slanted first floor is not
necessarily a problem.  You probably have to put in new floor joists
anyway, unless the ceiling joists above the existing room were made a lot
bigger than is necessary for ceiling joists.  So the second floor can be
built level above an unlevel first floor ceiling.  This was done in the
house that I now own, which had sagged in the middle.  Obviously, you have
to decide that you never, ever want to straighten the first floor if you
do this.

	Larry

      My questions are many . I wish to build an addition to my log cabin and
    there are several areas where information is scarce. My first problem is
    how to I get the logs to the house with the road and potential drop off
    point 100 yards away. The terrain is very uneven . Does any one have
    any experinence in this area? How about a forklift?
      Once I get the logs up to the house my next problem is hoisting them
    into place on the walls. Any Ideas?
       My toughest question is what type of guide lines are there for
    insulation of a structure like this? Do the regular rules apply or is
    there some  special consideratio0n given for the method of consruction?
    What is the R value for an 8x8 log anyway.
       The house is in Middleburgh , N.Y.
    Any help you can give me here would be appreciated.
    
      Thanks,
    
     Bill
    
    

    Hi Bill,
    
    You might want to check the note file "SUSHI::LOG_HOMES".  I know
    from experience you must have enough room for two tractor-trailers
    to be side to side to unload logs.  Any other questions I'd be happy
    to answer them..
    
    Mike

    When we were building our house, we arranged with a lumber yard
    two miles away to receive the logs.  So, the tractor trailer dropped
    the package out there, and they brought them in as we needed them,
    using a forklift.  This still left the logs at the top of the hill,
    about 25 yards from the house.  We, and friends, carted them down.
     Towards the end of the project, we got smart and built a "chute"
    out of plywood to send them down the hill.
    
    As far as setting them in place, we just did it.  The last few course,
    we used a step stool made of log pieces, but basically, it was just
    lift and place.  We did this for 17 courses; the second floor is
    framed, with log siding.  I would think it would be more difficult
    to do two stories of full logs, you'd need alot of staging and strong
    friends.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Susan

    
    
    If I understand you correctly, you must transport the logs some
    distance over uneven terrain.  If you have limited resources (read
    people) to help, then I'd construct a dolly affair that would allow
    you to strap a log in the middle between two large, sturdy garden
    cart wheels.  A large clamp or other such device, placed on one
    end will allow the log/dolly contraption to be moved about.  As
    far as lifting them up without major mechanical means (forklift
    etc.) you could use a Gin pole and a pulley arrangement.  A ramp
    and pulley arrangement would work well too.
    
    
    Kent

    I own a log cabin made of 4*8 rectangular cut double T&G cedar logs.
    If the wood is a softwood with lots of entrained air (like cedar),
    there is enough thermal mass there that you don't need to worry
    about insulation.  The downside is that the house takes forever
    to bring up to heat in Winter (I don't heat it between visits) since
    it takes forever to heat up all that mass.  
    
    It always amazes me that the insides of a solid wall only 3-1/2"
    thick are not cold when the temp outside is -10.  The biggest problem
    with conventional round logs it getting the cracks sealed.
    

    There is a show of PBS called The Woodwright Shop.  The "MC" is
    the master craftsman of Williamsburg and is connected to the North
    Carolina University.  He had a show about a year ago where he showed
    how to get the logs up to them top.  
    
    They just placed logs at an angle from the top of the existing wall
    to the ground.  They laid a rope from the top of the wall to the
    ground, wound the rope once around the log and then back up to the
    top of the wall.  People on the ground would push the log up and
    people on the wall would pull on one end of the rope.  The log would 
    roll up the incline and fall into place on the top of the wall.  They
    would then remove the rope and reset the angle logs to the new height.

    Mother Earth News magazine has articles about building log cabins
    every so often.  You might check your local library to see if they
    carry it and check with the research librarian for references into the
    magazine. 

    As to moving the logs...  The same show showed a cart affair used for
    moving logs.  They had 2 large wheels about 4 ft in diameter on an axial
    about 18 inches/2 ft wide.  It had 1 long beam that ran perpendicular
    to the axial.  The axial was placed about 1/3 along the beam.  They
    rolled the cart over the log, tipped the bean so the short end was down
    and the long end was in the air.  They tied the end of the log to the
    short end of the bean and then used the long end as a lever and pulled
    down on it forcing the short end and tied log into the air.  They
    continued to pull down on the long end until it touched the other end
    of the log.  They tied this end.  The log dangles from the bottom of
    the beam.  At that point they had two guys, lift the long end and pull
    the whole affair over and tied it to a horse. They mentioned that two
    people could also provide the propulsion. 
    

    There is a series of books called FOXFIRE.  The first in the series
    of nine, explains how to build a log cabin/structure.  It describes
    how to cut the notches at the end, how to peg the logs, how to layout
    the floor plan, how to build the mud and stick chinney, out to build
    the foundation, how to build the tools to build the structure, etc.
    
    Very detailed with many pictures and good explantaions.  The book
    was written as a college student special project by interviewing
    old timers in the North Georgia mountains.  More than 400 different
    log cabins were examined and documented the differences in technique.
    
    The series is very entertaining and should be available in local
    book stores.

    This might sound extreme, but if that hill is bad, and you have
    some large trees lined up well enoung, borrow for the loggers. 
    Put a cable in from beyond the unloading area to beyond the home
    site, then a chain fall on a pulley will not only get the logs down
    the hill but allow you to put them close to in place. Plenty of
    of rope and one or two safty people should do the job.

    It seems that if you could dig a hole about 6 ft wide and to the depth
    of the intended finished basement, you could knock a hole in the
    foundation, after providing needed support, and drive a Bobcat in.  Let
    the Bobcat do all the digging and hauling.   As pointed out earlier, at
    the point of each support, provide temporary support, dig out the old
    support, place a correctly sized longer support in, remove temporary
    support and then continue to dig around the new support with the
    Bobcat.   Still a lot of work but let the machine do most of the grunt
    work and you do a lot of riding around.
    
    My other question is, what do you do with all the dirt you remove?

We're going to add a large addition to the back of our house.  The present
structure is a simple Ranch, 24' by 42'.  The addition will span the entire rear
of the house (42') and extend back another 24'.  In effect, we are (nearly)
doubling the size of the existing home.  Here are my first questions:

I have spoken with the local building inspecter, and am told:
a. We need to file a "somewhat detailed" plan, including structure methods,
(spans, lumber sizing, supports, etc.), insulation method, and how the new
structure is to be "attached" to the old.  That last part is my problem.  I
don't know what the local acceptable methods of tying the new walls into the old
ones are.  Can you suggest how this should be done?

b. He tells me I cannot do the plumbing.  He says the MA. law requires a
licensed plumber obtain the permit, and that residential owners are not allowed
to do plumbing?  Is that true?  I've plumbed private construction (in other
states) with complete success, and wonder what makes MA different.

 	
We presently heat our home with forced hot water.  I suspect the furnace may be
too small to do the whole house when done, but I feel it may be worth trying. 
If I insulate all exposed pipes to increase the efficiency, should I try?  I'll
be removing 42 lf of exterior wall, and adding 90 lf (net increase of 52 lf).  I
plan on R19 walls, R30+ roof, and R19 floors in the addition.  What are my
chances of this working?

thanks, tony

    	I'm doing a similar double-the-house addition. As you will read in
    other notes, you can't do plumbing but you can do electrical work on
    your own house, usually, in Mass.  I think the theory is that if you
    foul up the electrical, you just burn your house down. If you foul up
    the plumbing, you could contaminate other's supply water. (It follows 
    that if you have your own well, you should be able to do your own
    plumbing... but it ain't so.)
    	I had an 'architectural designer' (someone who is not a certified
    Architect) draw up plans that the building inspector was happy with and
    subcontractors could use. If Groton, Mass. is convienent, ask me for
    her name. Cost was about $2500 and well worth it!  - Chris

There's so much information already here on your questions, I hardly know where
to begin... 

note 1111.3 has notes on other people's experiences with putting on additions.
note 1111.19 and 1111.20 have carpentry notes - there may not be any 
	specifically on attaching new walls to old, perhaps that's a good topic
	for a new note.
note 1111.78, .79 and .80 have plumbing notes ad nausem - the bit about 
	inspectors is much discussed.
notes 1111.47-.56 have heating notes, .50 has FHW, .51 and .52 have gas and 
	oil, respectively.
Paul
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< Note 3712.0 by FSTVAX::BEAN "Attila the Hun was a LIBERAL!" >
                        -< advise please..new addition >-

We're going to add a large addition to the back of our house.  The present
structure is a simple Ranch, 24' by 42'.  The addition will span the entire rear
of the house (42') and extend back another 24'.  In effect, we are (nearly)
doubling the size of the existing home.  Here are my first questions:

I have spoken with the local building inspecter, and am told:
a. We need to file a "somewhat detailed" plan, including structure methods,
(spans, lumber sizing, supports, etc.), insulation method, and how the new
structure is to be "attached" to the old.  That last part is my problem.  I
don't know what the local acceptable methods of tying the new walls into the old
ones are.  Can you suggest how this should be done?

b. He tells me I cannot do the plumbing.  He says the MA. law requires a
licensed plumber obtain the permit, and that residential owners are not allowed
to do plumbing?  Is that true?  I've plumbed private construction (in other
states) with complete success, and wonder what makes MA different.

 	
We presently heat our home with forced hot water.  I suspect the furnace may be
too small to do the whole house when done, but I feel it may be worth trying. 
If I insulate all exposed pipes to increase the efficiency, should I try?  I'll
be removing 42 lf of exterior wall, and adding 90 lf (net increase of 52 lf).  I
plan on R19 walls, R30+ roof, and R19 floors in the addition.  What are my
chances of this working?

thanks, tony

We're thinking of adding an addition onto our house, but we don't know
the best way to begin.  We have a general idea what kind of addition we
would like but not specific enough to solicit bids without first having
plans drawn up, or at least talking to an architect or designer to find
out what is feasible and for approximately what cost.

Could someone who has been in this same position comment on how
we can get our questions about design and cost answered without
committing ourselves to using a particular architect or builder yet?
If the cost is out of reach, we may not do this project at all.

More specifically, we're considering expanding our basement as part of
this addition.  How about an estimate on the foundation part of this
job which involves:

	Excavating 12x16 foot area adjacent to the existing house,
	deep enough for a full basement, plus excavating enough
	to make space to reattach a pre-fab bulkhead to the new
	foundation wall.

	Remove the existing bulkhead, which is within the area that
	is being excavated.

	Pour foundation and floor for the new area.

	Attach the bulkhead to new foundation and backfill it in place.

Thanks for any input.

Carol

    If you have a general idea of what you want in the addition,
    you should be able to interview architects.  You may get some
    insights into design possibilities just by interviewing them
    (and seeing pictures of, or driving by, their work).  If you
    want a recommendation (and live in eastern MA), send mail.
    
    For construction costs, talk to contractors (again, no obligation,
    just get estimates).  The foundation for our addition (20x23),
    crawlspace (not full), no bulkhead, was, hmm, 10-15K.
    (The payment involved a few other things, so I can't break out
    the exact cost.  My guess is the low half of that range.)
    Included excavation and backfill.
    
    My back-of-the-envelope calculation says the addition portion of
    our work comes to around $60/foot, plaster (no finish except doors).
    (This assumes I've correctly divided the costs between the addition
    and other parts of the job.)
    
    >Mark

    I just built an addition, but did sub out the excavating/backfill and
    foundation work.  It's 20 x 24' and has a full basement (8' celings)
    with a poured bulkhead (vs. prefab).  I poured the floor myself.  Total 
    cost was right around $7000.  The foundation guy also has a reputation 
    of being the best around the Maynard/Acton/Concord area.  It definitely
    pays to shop around for excavators.  Those that own their equipment
    outright generally charge less than those carrying heavy loans.
    
    Although I had planned from day one to build this myself, I still had a
    half dozen contractors come over to give us a price.  Not only did I
    want to see how much money we were saving, but they are also a good
    source for ideas.  As you might expect, prices can vary WIDELY.
    
    					Steve
    

    
    My husband is an excavator and the excavation for your 
    addition should only run $2000. That is JUST for excavation..
    He also said if your in Mass it would probably be cheaper
    up there... (were in northern NJ)  
    
    I know 2 people who added second floors to their homes and
    in each case in this area it ran 50-60K...
    
    Good luck
    

      If  you  hire  an  architect it will cost you more because (1) the
      architect is likely to suggest/specify some goodies that cost more
      that  "standard"  constrution,  plus  (2) the architect has to add
      his/her fee to the cost.
      
      What  you've described doesn't sound too complicated.  I'd suggest
      talking to various builders. It seems likely to me that they'll be
      able  to  provide plans at lot less expensively than an architect.
      We went this route for our garrage/breezway addition  (24'  x  24'
      garrage,  9'  x 16' breezway connecting to house) and also for our
      "3-season porch" addition (12' x 16'  room  plus  DIY  14'  x  16'
      deck).
      
      On the other hand, if you want something unique and are willing to
      pay the cost required, then an architect is the way to go.

when i did my addition (started labor day 1990, almost done), i did the 
following:

1-looked at a lot of magazines for ideas.

2-made up my own drawings.

3-found an architect through this conference to draw up plans.

4-got bids.

I have 2 books on construction planning and estimating.  I found these to be
helpful for determining costs, but not as good as getting estimates.  If you
send me mail, i'll look up the titles.  if you ever come down to mlo, i can let
you look at the books.  

i expanded my basement as well.  it was 16x24, with bulkhead built in.  As I 
recall, it cost about $4500 - $4700. It was handled by Ashland Construction,
excavation, forms, floor, bulkhead, and backfill. They also dug and poured 
footings for my deck and screened porch.

Please note. My foundation is only 4 feet, since the house is a split entry.
This is probably why mine was less expensive than the previous replies.

    I strongly suggest speaking with the building inspector first.  I am in
    the process of having an in-law apartment added to my house.  I had to
    get a variance to have it done.  I also have a brook running through my
    back yard and we are building within the 100 foot buffer zone.  More
    red tape.  I don't know what your setup is but make sure you check out
    the possible building code/zoning problems.
    
    I also suggest having a DETAILED set of plans.  Anything left for
    interruptation could cause problems in the long run.  Those plans act
    as your contract.  If your builder can't build to those specifications
    then he has a problem.
    
    Wayne
    
    Wayne

    reply .4
    
    Charlie,
    
    	Could you provide basic cost of the addition(s) you did?  I am
    looking to do a similar addition garage/breezeway and I just started to
    draw up the plans.  Any insight into cost would be helpful.
    
    Paul
    

	Has anyone replaced a bulkhead ? I need to replace the bulkhead on
my parents house and would like to know what I need and what I'm in for. Is
the bulkhead just bolted on and you lay down a bead of something before bolting
the new one on ?

	Thanks,
	-Steve-

    
      I did my own in about 1/2 day.  I took out the old wooden one, poured
    a new form (raised about 4 inches as it used to be ground level, and
    sloped the new form from 4" to 1"), installed new bulkhead putting new
    anchors in the wet concrete and bolting onto sill.  I went for the
    BILCO which I liked better compared to the others (it is heavy too).
    
      They provide good instructions, you just need to make sure you
    measure properly (they have a guide before you buy).  Its been great.
    
      If you don't pour new concrete I think you can use other attachment
    methods. I also caulked it as well.
    
          Good luck.
    
                  Mark

    I'll try and make this as clear as possible.  I'm adding on to my house
    this Spring.  The addition will stick out 15' and will be 30' long. 
    This means I'll need two 15' walls and one 30' wall.  Now, my question
    has to do with the floor.  I want part of it to be the same height as
    the existing house, with the other part "sunken" about 7".  I want the
    foundation to match the existing foundation completely, though.  Here's
    a crude drawing of what I want:
             new                    existing
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    x                       x
    x                       x
    x                       x
    x                       x
    x	   New Family Room  x
    x			    x
    x			    x
    x   		    x
    x-----------------------x <-- Step down
    x                       x
    x			    x
    x	   New Dining Room  x
    x			    
    x			      <-- Archway
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    
    How do I keep the foundation wall the same, while lowering my floor
    beams?  BTW this will be a crawl space type foundation with 24"
    foundation walls.  Flooring is 4x6 beams with 2x8 T&G subflooring.
    
    Thanks,
    Glen.

RE .11
	OK, I'LL Bite. Why a 24" thick foundation walls?
        Is't that a little over designed?


	Just kidding ;>) !

I'll assume this is timerframe construction with building materials you called
out. If it is, consider stress skin panel to close in the frame. What do the
4x6 joist tie into? Typically, something this large would be notched into a
~6X8 header with a self locking dovetail. This would make a stepped foundation
the most reasonable option. Standard 2x10 or 2x12 construction would be
acceptable for the foundation cap and then build with timers on top of that.
The only one's to know when it's complete will be you and the critters living
under there. Not knowing the lay of the land, or your mechanical requirements,
a cheaper solution would be a slab foundation,just be sure to insulate well at
the perimeter. If you must have foudation continuous height, one way would be
a block wall with joist pockets 2 ft on center (8" increaments just work well
with blocks). Be sure to have your inspectors approval on how to keep the
joist from getting end rot. You need to keep them from getting and staying wet,
sitting in the pocket. You'd need to use solid blocks of fill the cores below
each pocket. I'd use 12" block for the stepped foundation and a combination
    of 8" for the pocket and 4" to block off the end on the final course.

	   Cross Section of Block Wall
		at the a Pocket                      Top View of Pocket
                                                         In Block wall
                --                              ---------------------------
	       |  |                                  |        |_____|
	       |  |  <---Joist Pocket                |        |     |
               |__|____                              |        |     |
               |       |                          ------------      -------
               |       |
               |-------| Block Wall
               |       |
               |       |
          -------------------
          |                  |
	  |                  | Footing
          |__________________|


What ever you do, draw up cross sections down to the last detail. They should
start at the footing and go at least up to the wood frame interface and
include every detail. Here's a quick list of items to be called out in the
drawing: footing,foundation,drainage,foundation insulation,vapor barrier,
frame anchors, framing details,flashing, and the complete wall system. You
need one for each elevation change in the foundation. Good planning leaves no
hidden surprises as the project progresses. Also give consideration to
electrical and plumbing needs.
	My intention is not to discourage you but expose you to some of the
options available and stress the need for careful planning. Doing your
homework pays off with big dividends of $$ and self satisfaction.
       	Give a little more background on the project. Like how does the lower
new finish floor ties back into the existing finished floor height at the
archway? How much or the work are you planning to do yourself?

Hope this is of some help,

/Jim

	We are thinking of making an offer on a 50 year old home.  The
	only hold back we have is there is only one exit/entrance
	into the cellar which is from the kitchen.  Currently they 
	have an office and a laundry room down there.  We would like 
	to add an additional bedroom for our teenage son.  How difficult 
	would it be to install a bulkhead type of exit so there would 
	be two regresses.  If this is feasible how much of an expense 
	would this be.  Any help will be appreciated.  There's a window
	located now where we would like the bulkhead and the ground
	level comes just below the window.


	Thanks,
	

	Cyndi

I think you meant "egresses" (as in PT Barnum's "This way to the egress!")

It's not at all "difficult", unless access to the outside area where the
opening is to be installed is difficult.  The steps involved are:

	1.  Dig out area for entryway.
	2.  Cut through foundation wall.
	3.  Install new entryway box (precast, poured, cinderblock)
	4.  Install bulkhead and interior doors (and stairs if not included
	    in entryway box).

Cutting through the foundation wall is typically done with a special
diamond-edged concrete saw and may be a significant part of the expense.
I would expect this project to come in at around $2500-$4000, depending on
the size of the entryway and the particular materials you choose to use.

I recently had some of this done - I had an old bulkhead (metal) which was
to be ripped out and a new poured box put in (I wanted a very large one,
and since I wanted it to be "open" (so I could drop a spa down) I couldn't
use a precast box.  The foundation opening was enlarged a foot.  I supplied
the doors - the labor and materials for removing the old bulkhead and 
putting in the new "box" was $2650.  An interior door was $200 and the
Bilco bulkhead door was $300 or so (I got a big one with an extension).
(Don't skimp on the bulkhead door - quality matters here.  Bilco is the only
brand I've seen which I would choose to own, and it isn't much more expensive
than the others.)

The cheapest way to go is a precast entry box which can be lowered by
crane/backhoe/whatever.  Digging out with a backhoe is also the cheapest
method overall.

The cruical step is sealing the new entryway against water.  The precast
boxes have a rubber gasket which goes against the foundation wall.

					Steve

    I just put a bulkhead on the back of my house.  The totals were as
    follows:
    
    	o $180 to make the forms and pour a slab.  Did it myself and
    	  and had Brox concrete deliver the cement.
    
    	o $150 in materials for a cinderblock areaway.  
    
    	o $225 for labor to pay some dude to lay the block for me.  
          I'm not gonna give his name because he gave me an excellent 
          deal and I know he doesn't want to do it again.  The typical 
          cost to lay the block would be around $450-$500.
    
    	o $207 for the bulkhead door (Bilco) + $9 in caulk.
    
    	o Dunno how much the wood for the stairs will cost me 'cause
    	  I'm still waiting for the block to dry and I'm in no hurry
    	  to get them up.
    
    Because of the location of my bulkhead, I couldn't have a precast
    one put in.  I called around for the prices on them, though.
    It seems as though they run $750 - $1200 delivered/installed plus
    a few hundred more for the delivering/installing the doors.  I think
    this price was if you did your own excavation.
    
    I don't know how much it would cost to cut the foundation wall.
    I did it with my dad once with a 1/2" masonry bit and a hammer drill,
    though (it took forever), so it is something you can do yourself.
    
    Will

>>    I don't know how much it would cost to cut the foundation wall.
>>    I did it with my dad once with a 1/2" masonry bit and a hammer drill,
>>    though (it took forever), so it is something you can do yourself.
    
I just had a hole cut in my foundation for access to an addition.
For 8" thick concrete the price was $22 a linear foot or $350 minimum.
That was from 2 different places in the Nashua, NH area.

	Thanks so much for the great response. I am having a
	Contractor take a look Thursday night to be sure all 
	my plans are doable.  Then we will get as much help as
	we need to do as much as possible ourselves.  I really think
	it would be hard to get a backhoe or any other large equipment
	in the back.

	If all goes well we will make an offer on the house 
	this weekend.         Scary stuff!

	Glad I found this note.  I think we're gonna need it.
	This will be our First home.


	Thanks,

	Cyndi