Conference 7.286::home_work

    Connection-wise they're much the same - except of course you'll
    need a gas connection! To do it 'official', a lot of your hassles
    will be municipal - The Gas Company (Comm Gas around here) is supposed
    to turn off the gas before work is started ($15?), the town will typically
    require an inspection ($10 in Hudson) and the gas company is supposed
    to start the gas again and light any pilots (another $15). Whatta
    racket.
    
    The good news... they're substantially cheaper to operate than
    electrics, tho somewhat more expensive initially.
           
    A related question - with modern (IID) ignitor systems on gas water
    heaters: has anyone used a timer to enable/disable the ignitor,
    so that the water doesn't stay heated when it isn't needed? I know
    this is often done with electric heaters, but it's impractical with
    NON-pilotless gas units.
    
    -Scott
    
    A related question 

    
    
    I had no idea that you had to have someone shut the gas off! 
      I have a shut off valve right by the meter that i can just shut
    off myself.  i've hooked up gas stove's before and never had to
    call the gas company.
    
                      paul

    The Thought Police will catch up with you sooner or later. What
    do you fear most? Therms? BTUs? Your Feb NatGas bill every month?
    
    I had a gas dryer installed - flex pipe is illegal for gas fittings
    in Mass, so DIY was out. I commented to the plumber "wish you didn't
    have to turn the gas off". So he didn't! When the time came, he quickly
    unscrewed the pipe, and made his connection. Stunk up a bit, but
    probably didn't reach explosive state. I wouldn't recommend this
    approach, but I can say I've seen it done. The primary inspector
    for the town (Hudson) was out sick that day, so the Assistant Inspector
    did he... the plumber's brother-in-law.
    
    Check with your Nat'l Gas supplier for the regulations. The rules are
    stupid on the one hand (you can turn off your gas AT LEAST as
    competently as some of the folks from Comm Gas) - but if something goes
    wrong - 10 years from now - I'd be concerned over the insurance if say
    the job wasn't inspected after the work was done, when the town
    required it. 

    -Scott
    

    My house had an oil hot water tank which gave up the ghost after
    I owned it for two years.  Since gas isn't available on my street
    and electric seems silly, we replaced it with another oil burner.
    I really like them.  Hot water from a cold start in about 30 minutes.
    It cost about $1300, but I think it's worth it.
    
    -joet

    
    I JUST BOUGHT A HOUSE IN OAKLAND, MAINE AND THIS IS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE
    WITH HOT WATER BLUES...THE HOUSE IS 100 YRS. OLD AND IT HAS A GAS
    WATER HEATER...I MOVED IN ON THE 17TH OF DECEMBER AND SINCE I HAVE
    NEEDED TO PURCHASE THREE CYLINDERS OF GAS AT 36.95 A WHACK...I CAN'T
    PICTURE ELECTRIC BEING ANYMORE EXPENSIVE...
    
    THERE'S JUST ME IN THE HOUSE...MAYBE TWO OR THREE LOADS OF WASH
    A WEEK AND THREE OR FOUR BATHS...DOES THAT SEEM LIKE I'M PAYING
    TOO MUCH...??? ALSO, THERE ARE DISHES TO DO...
    
    ANY REPLIES TO THIS????  I  COULD USE ALL THE HELP I CAN GET...

    Sounds a little high.  We heat the house AND water with gas in Mass,
    and it costs around 40-50 a month, based on the last 3 bills.  Piped
    in gas, though.  You might want to check the condition of the water
    heater.  If it's a pre-OPEC version it is probably inadequate in
    insulation.  If it is old a/or you have hard water, you may have
    built up corrosion or deposits in the tank that insulate the tank
    from the burners.
    
    If the gas compan has discounts based on the size of the tannk and
    you have a small tank, maybe an upgrade to a larger size that didn't
    need replacing so often would help.  Oh yeah, insulate the pipes
    from the heater outbound wherever they are exposed.  That won't
    helpa basic heater problem, but if you are losing lots of heat in
    the run from heater to faucet, you may be drawing more hot water
    to compensate.
    
    /Dave

By the way...after you've taken all the measures suggested by .-1 and 
find that it still doesn't help, think about electric.

I have a 40 gallon unit in my place and it's connected via 'The Little 
Gray Box' timer which limits its on/off times to about 8 hours on over a 
24 hour period (two 4 hour periods). My wife and son are home all day 
and we've seen consistent $25/mo electric bills. When I bought the 
place, there was no timer and we were using twice that when both of us 
weren't home.

If you check with your electric company, you may be able to get a 
separate meter for the hot water. The rates are a little cheaper. If 
they have a service as I mentioned, don't let them talk you into having 
their timer/meter installed. It will probably be a little cheaper yet, 
but then you have NO control over the heating cycle. If I have a need to 
heat an extra tankful, I just throw the override switch...

Good luck...
	   Chris

    There is much discussion of various hot water heating systems elsewhere
    in this file.  Given that you are alone in the house, your hot water
    needs are going to be light and occasional.  You should investigate
    a timed electrical tank as Chris suggested in the previous reply or
    consider an on-demand heater (as I said, discussed elsewhere in this
    conference).  The general concensus among respondents is that you
    can't control a gas heater such as you (and I) have.

    Re: .5 
      You say that you have had to purchase three cylinders of gas at
    $36.95 a whack.  Are you sure that the cylinders were empty?  My gas
    co. delivers automatically every so often with a large tank truck,
    charging a different amount each time depending on how much gas I have
    used (just like the oil co.).  It sounds like you are having the
    cylinders replaced each time.  Is this done automatically by the gas
    co. or do you have to call when you run out?  If it is done
    automatically and the last people to live there used a lot, the gas co.
    might just be coming every three weeks and charging you for a full
    cylinder, even though it is only one third empty.  Just an idea. 
    
      For a home that only uses a small amount of hot water, I would think
    that electricity would be cheaper, due to stand-by losses.  If you
    insulate the tank heavily, then with electricity you pay more to
    heat the water but lose little heat while storing it.  With gas
    you pay less to heat it, but even with a lot of insulation on the
    outside of the tank you are still losing heat up the chimney.  Think
    about it..... you have a heat exchanger in the center of your hot
    water heater, you let cold air from the cellar floor in at the
    bottom of the heat exchanger, and then you have a chimney above
    it.  The heat exchanger probably heats cold air with hot water just
    as well as it heats cold water with hot air.  You don't have this 
    loss with an electric heater.  You also have a pilot light burning 
    constantly with bottled gas.
    
    Or, as mentioned previously, you may want to look into a tankless 
    gas or electric unit, but I believe that these also have to have
    a pilot light for bottled gas use.

    Also check with the electric co. about a seperate meter for hot
    water heating.  In New Hampshire they have three or four different
    rate set-ups for hot water.  One of them is on all the time with
    a slightly lower than normal cost.  Another is shut off for a short
    period in the morning and again in the early evening, for even less
    cost.  And another is only turned on late at night, then shut off
    all day, for the lowest cost. 
    
    Jim D.

Another thing to look at is the possibility of a gas leak. Mix
some dish detergent and warm water so that you have a soapy liquid,
not a lot of suds. Check all conections in the gas line, including
right at the tank. Check the whole regulator and the tank valve.
A small leak can kill a 100 lb cylinder in a surprizing short amount of
time and, expecially if the leak is outside, not generate enough odor
for you to notice. I have an old hot water heater and a gas stove, I
go through 1 cylinder every 30 days or so. Thats for 3 people, one of
which is a 13 year old girl who thinks she is allergic to dirt or something.

Bill

	I'll second the idea of using electric with "The little Grey Box".
	Since you don't seem to need a lot of hot water you shouldn't
	keep a tankfull hot all the time.  I've got a 30 gallon electric
	water heater with the timer controlling it.  There is just my wife
	and myself living in the house.  My monthly electric bill is usually
	less than $30 / mo. and that is with the electric co. with the highest
	rates in Vermont.  We run the timer for three hours in the morning
	and three hours in the evening.  The override switch is handy for
	weekends.

	-gary

    
    THANKS FOR YOUR SUGGESTIONS...I'LL LET YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE IN
    PRICE AND SUCH WHEN I CONVERT OVER TO ELECTRIC (IT'LL BE AWHILE,
    MONEY'S KINDA TIGHT RIGHT NOW) THANKS AGAIN...

	I realized it's been a while since the last reply, but I 
	just discovered this file.

	RE: The numerous replies that mention timers for electric
	water heaters.

	Are timers available which allow setting the cycle on a
	day-of-the-week basis? What I'm interested in is one that
	can be varied for weekends. If so, who makes them? Any
	information on where they would be available in the
	Worcester, Mass. area would also be a help.

	Thanks.

	Will
	

    I got one at Marlboro Electric recently, I think the brand name is
    "T.O.D." for Time Of Day and it costs about $45-$50. You can set
    several on/off cycles during a 24 hour period and it has a day of the
    week wheel that can be set to disable it such that it will be on all
    weekend, or any other day/s that you choose. All of this is behind the
    door of the unit and on the outside is a large throw switch that tells
    at a glance if its on or off. This switch can also be thown manually if
    you deside that you want hot water now and it will reset it self with
    the next cycle. 
    
    Charly

         Yesterday I replaced my electric hot water heater with a gas
         one.  It's premature to compare the cost of gas vs
         electricity but I'm hoping for some savings, what with
         seabrook going on line and the added surcharges.  I already
         had a lp gas hookup for my range.  The company upgraded my
         tanks from two, 23 gallon cylinders to one large 100 gallon
         tank.  The company had a sale this month.  Got twenty dollars
         off the tank, free installation, and a nifty kit consisting
         of a thermometer and a radio antenna with an alligator clip
         attached to the end - useful for lighting hard-to-reach pilot
         lights.
         
         The replacement heater has a blower attachment that
         allows it to be vented with 4" rubber hose, sorta like a
         dryer vent hookup.  The tank is located in the basement about
         5 feet from an outside wall.  The vent hookup goes though the
         sill plate. 
         
         One nifty side effect of having the blower attachment is that
         I easily installed a timer on it.  I bought a $6 timer and
         put it in series with the blower.  The main burner won't come
         on unless there is electricity present for the blower.  
         
         Nancy

	Re: .16

	They upgraded you to a 100 gallon gas heater?  Wow!  That is _big_.
Most electric heaters are big (80+ gallons) since it takes so long to heat up
the water via electricity, but gas heaters usually heat up the water much
faster, so a smaller tank can be used.  I have a 40 gallon tank that, according
to the manufacturer's recommendations, is already larger than my family needs.
I've seen 50 gallon gas tanks for really heavy uses, but 100 gallons?  I've
never even seen one that size for homes...

								-craig

    re .17
    
    I think .16 means the propane tank, not the water heater... :^)

         oops, got a little unclear with my tanks!
         
         The lp tanks were upgraded from 2, 23 gallon cyliniders to a
         single 100 gallon tank.
         
         The hot water heater is 40 gallons.
         
         Nancy

	'Tanks for the tanks correction!  :-)

					-craig

       After an 85 dollar electric bill some 3 months ago I declared war
    on electric appliances in my house. In another note I'd written about
    finally getting a handle on my Solar HW system. Well since fixing it
    and adding some water to the transfer solution instead of straight
    anti-freeze the bills started dropping. I also insulated the Electric
    water heater. Well last week the electric bill came we went from 85
    dolllars @ 30+KWH a day average to 34 dollars at 15KWH a day. Other
    things I did was to chase the kids around shutting off lights all ot
    the time etc. Now if only it statyed sunny year round I wouldn't have
    to worry about the bill creeping up during the cloudy cool/cold months.
    
    
        Bob

    
    
    
    
    Hi,
    
    I have to replace my water heater soon.  It is an LP Gas model.
    It work fine but it is only 30 gallon and I will soon require
    more than that.
    
    I am installing a jaccuzi.  I believe it is a 69 gallon capacity
    and the 30 gallon water heater won't cut it.
    
    I have read through several of the notes regarding gas as well as
    electric heaters but still haven't found the information I need.
    
    While I am replacing the water heater, I was wondering if it would
    be more cost efficient to install an electric unit operating on a
    timer.
    
    My questions were:
    
    o 	If an electric water heater was on a timer, when the time came on,
        would the electricity it takes to heat the water to 'X' degrees be just
    	as much as not having a timer?
    
    o   Would 'fast recovery' water heaters use more electricity during the
    	recovery period than a normal recovery water heater?
    
    o   Would an electric water heater, on a timer, be more cost efficient
        than an LP water heater maintaining a constant temperature? 
    
    o   I noticed someone mentioned 'off peak hours'.  My bill from Mass
        Electric doesn't differentiate it, should it?
    
    Thanks!
    
    /andy
    
    
    
    

Electric water heat is generally more expensive - even on a timer.  If you
have a well-insulated tank, the gas-fired tank won't drop temperature much.

You might consider a "hot water maker" ala Amtrol Boilermate if you have
a gas-fired FHW boiler.  They also tend to last much longer than a standard
water heater.

Not all electric companies offer off-peak metering, and typically you can
get it only if you have an electric water heater.  

				Steve

    > You might consider a "hot water maker" ala Amtrol Boilermate if you have
    > a gas-fired FHW boiler.  They also tend to last much longer than a
    > standard water heater.
    
    If this is the water heater that runs off a separate zone of your
    boiler, I recommend the SuperStor unit over the Amtrol.  The Amtrol
    unit has a steel tank which is glass covered while the SuperStor is
    stainless steel tank which is supposed to last longer.  We have one and
    think it's great.  No more running out of hot water.
    
    						John

    
    
    My house is heated with a parlor heater, and the heater which is built
    into my kitchen stove.  
    
    It would seem (From speaking with several people) that it would be
    most economical to buy a larger LP rather than switch to electric.
    

The Amtrol has a plastic-lined tank and offers a lifetime warrantee against
leakage.

				Steve

>    boiler, I recommend the SuperStor unit over the Amtrol.  The Amtrol
>    unit has a steel tank which is glass covered while the SuperStor is
>    stainless steel tank which is supposed to last longer.  We have one and

    I looked at both the Amtrol and another make (it might have been
    SuperStor) and chose the Amtrol because it offered a Lifetime,
    non-prorated warranty against leakage. If it leaks, they replace
    it.

    But they (either make) are a great way to make hot water!

    Charly