Conference 7.286::home_work

    	Bill..
    
    		My father in law and I put one up 2 years ago and as
    	of today it's still standing. It can be time consuming but the
    	results are worth it. Mine is about 3-4 ft. at the highest point
    	and it tapers to about 1 ft. I dug a footing about 1 ft below
    	ground level. The wall is about 2f ft. wide at the bottom (this
    	width should vary depending on the height of the wall. The key
    	is to make sure each rock is resting solid. This can be
    	accomplished by using small stones as shims. Also make sure
    	the face is straight and true (don't have rocks sticking out
    	at different points. All in all it's not too difficult (just
    	take a little time....)
    
    				Steve
    

    Yankee magazine publisheda book on building dry walls a few years
    back. Check your local bookstore for availability. Publisher is
    Yankee Publisheing, Dublin, N. H.  Book was about $5-6.00 range.
    They should know about new england stone walls if anyone does!

    I used the Yankee book to help build my stone walls.  Three years
    + and still standing.  Your local library can get it for you or
    you can contact Yankee Books directly.  By the way, I live in Dublin,
    N.H.  If I still have my book on stone walls, I'll let you borrow
    it if you cannot find one.
    
    
    Carl
    
    

    Thanks for the input, thus far.  One question:  did you use existing
    stones from your property or did you purchase them?  If they were
    bought, how expensive were they and where did you buy them?
    
    Bill

    	Bill...
    
    		I got mine when they were rebuilding a road in the
    	area where I live. I went and asked the forman if I could have
    	a couple of pickup truck loads and he said no problem. I did
    	not price them. I'm sure you should be able to pick up some
    	somewhere.... Just watch out for the snakes when dismanteling
    	old walls...
    
    			Steve
    

    Fitzgerald & Day (I think that's the name) in Westminster, Mass.
    sells "good" (i.e. flat and reasonable size) rocks for stone walls, 
    $65/ton.  Or so I've been told.
    
    Beware of dismantling old stone walls - such practice is a bad idea
    for a couple of reasons.  One, they are almost certainly owned by
    somebody, who may not take kindly to you lugging them off.  Two,
    stone walls are frequently boundary markers in old deeds, and removing
    them may get some town officials mad at you.
    
    Steve
    

    I've checked into having a stoned wall built for me and this is
    what I found.  Most books that talk about building walls say that
    a dry stone wall should be left to the professionals.  That is if
    you are looking for a nice flat front with the stones fitting together
    like a jig-saw puzzle.  You could DIY but the finished product
    will probably be more coarse looking.  Also, when I talked to the
    stoned mason, they always use mortar on the backside of a backfilled
    wall for strength.  They just make sure that the mortar doesn't
    show thru to the front.
    
    Here is the current cost of professional constructed stoned walls
    in the Marlboro, MA area:
    
    $20 per square foot for every square foot showing.
    Translation: if you have a 3 ft high wall, 1 foot thick at the top
    		 that means you have 4 sq ft for every running foot
    		 of wall or $80 per running foot.
    
    This does not include the cost of stone but does include the mortar.
    
    -al

    Back in the '70s I built over 100' of stone wall with the help of
    my grandfather's knowledge and my father.....This entire wall holds
    back the side of a hill and ranges in height from five feet to 3
    ft......anyways the whole thing was built from taking utility trailer
    loads of stone from road construction sites...never once was refused
    from the foreman at the site.
    
    Although these walls all used mortar the key to getting good facial
    stones wasn't only finding the 'flat stones' but most were the work
    of knowing how to cut/chip off pieces from a stone with a hammer
    to end up with the finished product.
    
    -Jay
    

    They are building a stone wall in front of LKG right now.  They
    started by digging a ditch and filling it with small (1"-2" diameter)
    stones, and are now putting the real stones on top of that.
    
    Rich

    I talked with the contractor building the LJO wall.  His name is Houde,
    from Hudson..i think.  Anyways, the cost (he said) was $55 a running
    foot, and that he was low bidder.  This was a wall that's finished on
    the front, back, and top. It's two feet high and wide, and n.n thou
    feet long.  
    
    I did a lot of searching for rock wall quotes this spring.  The
    best quote I got was for $15 a face foot, and the top was 'free'.
    Most other quotes were for $17 - $20 a face foot with other
    contingencies.
    
    ..other contingencies, like:
    	extra for site prep.. running strings and marking where the
    wall was to go with a lime stripe
        digging down 6" for the wall base
        extra fill for backfilling (if it's a retaining wall)
        extra for getting the stone to the worksite (in back of the
        house....150' from where it was unloaded)
        clean-up
    
        and remember that a corner _| has extra face to it
    
    Fitzgeral and Day out of Winchendon (?) sells the three types of
    stone required...at different prices.  They deliver in 10-20 ton
    loads.  Costs:  roller base is about $45/ton, chunkies (for the
    middle layer) about $65/ton, and flats $75+ a ton.  Figure about
    1.5 ton for every ten square feet.  My stone was from the Petersham
    area walls, more schist than granite, but great color and shape.
    
    Look for examples of the contractors work, and references.  Fitzgerald
    and Day also build.  Other locals are P.C. Myette from Groton, and
    Neil Jorgenson from Harvard.  Have a written contract.
    
    Me...I collapsed a disc last December.  I paid to watch the mason
    and his helpers do their thing during the height of blackfly season.
    It cost a bundle, but faster and less painful than surgery and
    recuperation.
    
    		 / roger bowker
                  

    Re: .13
    
    Yes, if you read many of the old deeds they are written "...as the
    wall now stands."  Taking down the walls is like pulling up surveyor's
    corner posts.

    re: .12
    
    I had a neighbor tell me the following story one time.
    
    Seems the neighbor lives in a very old saltbox that has been in
    her family for the past 200 years (give or take a week...). She
    also has a traditional stone wall in front of the house by the street
    that may well be as old as the house. She came out one day to find
    another neighbor taking it apart and putting the stone around a
    new swimming pool! The excuse given? The neighbor with the wall
    wasn't USING it?
    
    Now, how the heck do you use a stone wall if not just let it stand
    in front of your house as this one was?
    
    Needless to say, neighbor with wall had the neighbor with pool replace
    and rebuilt the portion of wall they had removed. BTW, the neighborhood
    is full of stories like this about the neighbor with the pool, she
    is always up to something obnoxious!

    re:14
    
    Sounds like my next door neighbor!!
    
    /bruce :-)
    

    
    	I have one, also. Every neighborhood has to have a loser.
    
    rgrds,al
    

    A friend and I are going halves on 5 acres of land. The other day,
    my friend called me up with a story. Seems the two guys building
    in the next lot wanted to build a stone wall. Not on the line, but
    on our side. Where were they gonna get the stones? From the stone
    wall at the back of our property, naturally.
    
    These are the same guys who had their well site marked off in the
    middle of our property. Like Dave Barry says, I am not making this
    up.      -Tom R.

    re .17
    		Look at the bright side, you already have a site picked
    out for a well on your property.  Could you get them to dig it for
    you too?
    
    Mike B
    

    Re .17  some of the old stone walls in Massachusetts are protected,
    I've been told.  Maybe you should check and see if the stone wall
    is protecetd and, if it is, let them take a few stones and then
    you call the fuzz ;-)
    
    Douglas

I need to build a stone wall to match an existing wall.  The existing wall
made of is 4" x 4" x 8" granite paving stones, held together by concrete,
about 30" high, with a raised terrace on one side of the wall (so only the
front and top show). 

I have more paving stones, probably enough to do the job.

I've seen plenty of books and articles on building dry stone walls, but none 
on this type of wall. 

- Do I need to slope the wall back into the terrace?  (Note that the
  existing wall isn't sloped). 
- Do I lay a course, backfill behind it, then lay the next course?
- Same drainage considerations as for a dry wall?
- What type of concrete do I use?
- Would a concrete slab beneath the bottom course be a good idea?
- Compare and contrast this operation, if you can, with bricklaying.
- Please suggest any appropriate books or other sources.

Where possible without compromising structural integrity, I'd like to match 
such details of the existing wall as height, (lack of) slope, and color and 
texture of concrete.  I'm already using the same stones.  For details that 
won't show, like the slab underneath, I'm happy to do whatever's expedient.

    Beneath the bottom course...
    
    Most professionals jobs that I've seen for short walls do not use
    concrete below the bottom course.  Instead they use a layer (don't
    know how much) of 1 inch crushed bluestone that has been tamped down.
    This also may help with the drainage.
    
    -al

    Yet another interesting Massachusetts stone wall fact:
    We've gotta open the wall at the front of our property for a driveway.
    This is non-trivial. Since this road is a "scenic" road, the town
    planning board has to approve it. Plus, we must send a letter to
    all of our "abutters" annoucing our intentions. This holds for cutting
    trees, too. Isn't red tape great?    -Tom R.
    (End of digression)

If I build a two foot high stone wall with mortor, would I have to build a
four foot high footing under it??  If not, wouldn't frost heaves destroy
the wall over time??  

Brad.

    Moderator: I checked the Keywords w/ no luck. If this should be moved 
               please do so.
    
    
     I am in the midst of a new project. I had 80+ ft. of stone wall
    moved into 3 piles (each bigger than a car!) The wall was once the
    property border of my lot . I  recently obtained the lot behind mine
    and had it cleared as well as had the stone wall moved to my new
    property boundry. Now I have 3 piles of flatstones! I am trying to 
    determine if I should try to make a double faced stonewall border,
    or just heap 'em all into a long pile. 
     First, is building a stone wall a DIY type project?
    and if so PLEASE provide any tips, recomendations, pointers ,
    experiences etc.....
    
    ADthanxVANCE/bob

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DCL [Moderator]

    We had our New Hampshire property surveyed by a registered surveyor in
    1981 at the time we purchased our home/property.  Stone bounds were
    placed.  My neighbor recently came onto what is by survey our property
    and placed surveyors markers.  He told us that he was remortgaging his
    house, and was having his property surveyed.
    
    Concerned about his actions, we consulted a lawyer who wrote our
    neighbor a letter saying that if there was a dispute over the boundary,
    it would have to be settled by the two surveyors to see what went
    awry.  We returned home from work one day to find our stone bounds
    dug up, new bounds placed 10 feet into our property.  Since we weren't
    a witness to the action, we can only surmise that it was done by our
    neighbor or his surveyor or both.  Our lawyer called our neighbor and
    his surveyor, both of whom said that they did not "see" any stones.
    [we have documentation that our bounds were placed in 1981].
    
    We are trying to settle this in a civilized manner and have a lawyer
    writing letters, etc.  Needless to say it is costing us a lot of
    money.  We feel that there was an injustice done here and don't know
    why we have to PROVE (i.e., spend money on lawyers) that our 10 year
    old survey is any less correct than the one recently done by our
    neighbor.  He has yet to PROVE that his is correct and ours is wrong.
    
    Is something wrong with this picture?  What needs to be done? 
    Meanwhile, we have lost our markers and 10 feet of our property.
    

The very first thing I would do is try to document as clearly as possible that
the existing bounds were actually dug up, and that they have been dug up 
recently.  Find the places where the stones were, take pictures, get some other 
witnesses of some sort - whatever you can think of to show that they were just
removed.  I'm assuming that the bounds were dug up recently.  Even if you can 
find traces that the bounds are missing, but all you can tell is that they have 
been removed some time more than a couple weeks ago, it will be hard to pin it 
on them: "Gee, we never saw any bounds, someone else must have removed them."  
If you can show that they have been dug up very recently, as in while they were
out there, you have a reasonable chance of proving that they removed them.

Whatever else the legality of the situation, if you can show that they removed
existing bounds, it will put them in an EXTREMELY bad light right off the start,
and that's assuming they aren't prosecuted.  I believe that removing bounds
markers is a crime.

Paul

    We took Polaroid photos of the holes from which the bounds were removed
    along with photos of the newly placed stones.  In order to place the
    new stones, they had to dig large holes in what is considered our
    lawn!  We also filed with the local Police Department (that "someone"
    removed our stones).
    
    Our lawyer has the photos.  

I am not a lawyer.....that being said, I would ask my lawyer to politely 
but firmly state in a letter to your neighbor, their lawyer, and the bank 
doing the remortgage, that the boundary is disputed, boundary markers that 
were placed in 1981 have been dug up and moved, and that any attempted use 
of the disputed property will result in an immediate court injunction until 
such time as you can resolve the boundary issues. I would also notify your 
mortgage holder, assuming you have a mortgage on your property.

This way, everyone is clear that something is amiss here and you are doing 
everything you can to right the situation. I would also inquire with your 
lawyer about recouping your costs in small claims court or having him file 
for you if the costs go above small claims limits. Not sure if a housing 
court would have any jurisdiction here, but you might inquire about an 
injuction against use of the disputed property with that court. It is 
something you can file and do yourself without a lot of expense and hassle.
(Assuming you don't consider losing a 1/2 day of work a hassle)

In Mass, the housing court can help you recoup up to $1500, triple 
damamges under certain circumstances. New Hampshire may vary....

    Vic H

  Vic's suggestion to involve the mortgage holder (if any) is right on.

  They may be sufficiently interested to pay all legal fees, especially
  if you indicate to them that you're no longer able to. Your lawyer
  might lose out, though, because a bank will use their own lawyers. If
  this doesn't bother you, it sounds like the way to go.

    We learned that it costs $1500. to file an injunction in the State of
    NH.  I think it's really sad.  In a sense, our neighbor did something
    unethical, perhaps illegal, but we appear to have no recourse without
    spending more money than the 10 feet of property might be worth.  Is
    there no other way?  To date we've spent over $500 just to defend
    what, according to the 1981 survey, is ours.
    
    Thanks for the input and advice.  We're just shocked that things like
    this are allowed to happen.

    I think .4 is a good suggestion; one we never thought of.  They are,
    after all, the property owners.  It might be in their best interest to
    straighten things out.  I just hope that the bank lawyers are ethical.
    I've heard that they can be otherwise, that's why people hire outside
    lawyers when they buy/sell property.
    
    For example, my neighbor is the 4th owner in 30 years to buy his
    property whose deed does not accurately describe reality.  About 30
    years ago, a road was cut through his property, but his deed says
    that he has a 40 foot lot (where the road actually is now).  Each
    mortgage provider simply passes the deed on as is.
    
    

    One thing hasn't been mentioned yet; maybe the markers were wrong.
    
    Shouldn't the surveying companies be the ones slugging this out?
    If the markers *were* right, then you should have recourse to
    the company who says they weren't. If the markers were wrong, then
    you should have recourse to the company who did your survey 10 years
    ago...
    
    Edd

    We are aware that the markers may be wrong -- that's why we consulted
    a lawyer to find out what was the best way to proceed.  We were
    advised that the two surveyors would need to talk to see where, if
    either, went off in the survey.
    
    This occured while the wooden hubs were placed on our property by our
    neighbor's surveyor.  Next thing that happened was that our stones
    were removed and new stones were placed.
    
    Our 1981 survey was compromised.
    Our granite stone markers are gone.
    Ten feet of our land was "claimed" with no explanation or "proof" that
    our survey was incorrect.  
    We are put in a position of defending our survey.  It would seem to me
    that our neighbor needed to say that there appeared to be a dispute,
    and then come forward with evidence that our survey was incorrect.  You
    can't just go around grabbing land because you "think" it belongs to
    you.
    
    BTW, we learned that the law in NH says that if a surveyor has
    incorrectly surveyed your land, as long as it has caused no harm other
    than a misunderstood boundary line, there is no recourse.  
    

    How about asking the neighbor and his surveyor why they feel the
    boundry is where they put it, and not where your stones were?
    That doesn't say they moved them (which all parties know in fact
    they did), but it might give you a starting point from which you
    can go to your surveyor with and discuss. Since it may be difficult
    getting the two surveyors together, you can run info between the
    two. Hopefully you'll gain enough information to know who did the
    job correctly, and then take appropriate action.
    
    John

It will be a lot cheaper for both you and your neighbor to get together and
try to handle this with the surveyors, than to get involved with lawyers and
lawsuits.  Have you spoken to your neighbor personally and said "We can either
both spend a few thousand dollars on lawyers - money that will go down the drain
since it is unlikely that either one of you can collect that much in damages --
or we can spend a few hundred on surveyors.  Why don't we just arrange a meeting
between the four parties: two surveyors and two landowners, with each landowner
paying their own surveyor, and see if we can get a rational answer to this."

Don't get hung up on this burden of proof issue.  Just because your survey was
done first doesn't make it any more correct than theirs.  From their point
of view, their 1991 survey is correct, your stone markers were on their 
property, and you are the one who took ten feet of their land with no proof
that your survey was correct.  The reasonable solution is to share the future 
survey costs, not try to force them all on one or the other.

   Gary

Do you have "title insurance"?  If so, would that enter into this in any
helpful way?

    .11 Another great idea.  Thanks.

    Why not go to see the town records yourself, I would presume this is
    the source of the information the surveyors are using. You may even
    call ahead and have the documents prepared for you....
    
    Good luck

    .10:
    
    Nice idea -- but it's unclear how reasonable these individuals are.  We
    don't really know much about them, other than that they (the owners? 
    the surveyor?) dug up the bounds, which might be a criminal act (does
    .0 know what the local laws are regarding it?)
    
    IF they're willing to talk reasonably about it, it would be nice (and
    less expensive) to leave lawyers out of it.  If you can't do it without
    a lawyer, I second the suggestion to get the mortgagor in on it.
    
    Dick

    .10 is a nice idea, but if you re-read the base note, it appeared that
    there might be a difference of opinion as to the boundary when we
    saw the wooden survey hubs inside of our boundary markers.  The next
    step would have been for our neighbor's surveyor to say "Oops, looks
    like a difference of opinion here, let's see who's right."  Meanwhile,
    a survey done in 1981 cannot simply be invalidated by digging up the
    stones and taking property which may or may not be yours.
    
    Put yourself in this position.  One day you wake up and find that
    your neighbor has decided that "his" survey is correct and yours isn't,
    and simply throws your boundary markers away and places his own.  I
    believe that you would think that there was something "unjust" about
    this.  Beyond solving this through legal channels, there is little
    option other than getting down on a certain level of digging up
    one another's boundary markers.  It could go on forever.

    Question one and a big ONE.....was this a registered survey or was it a
    "tape survey" typically used to roughly determine boundary lines for 
    purpose of deed verification.....the two are very different things in
    most cases.
    
    Having experienced a case where a "neighbor" moved surveyor pins and 
    "bound" markers to where he wanted them rather than where they should
    have been I can assure you that in Maine (at least, likely everywhere
    else) it is a violation of the law to move any surveyor pins and
    especially "Bound" markers without appropriate quit claim agreements
    concerning the misclaimed property. BUT you must have evidence of the
    movement.
    
    It would seem to me that any good lawyer would be able to provide oyu
    with recourse. In most (my) cases the earliest bound marker takes 
    precidence over any more recent surveys, particularily if the marker has 
    been inplaced and undisputed for more than 7 years. Most all surveys in
    new england go back to bound markers set in the 1800's. Disputes arise
    in the interpretation of the distances junctures. If a resurvey by
    another party appears to result in misspositioning of the pins it then 
    becomes the responsibility of the desputee (in this case your neighbor) 
    to PROVE in law (ie court) beyond any doubt by precise survey that the 
    marker was incorrect..as well as arrange a quit claim or other agreement 
    with YOU to settle the dispute once proven.
    
    Taking pictures of the holes, measurrment of the offset and soforth is
    absolutely critical in proving the original position of the markers.
    DO NOT reposition any of the markers yourself or the case will be
    compromised.
    
    I suggest you do not attempt to verbally discuss this issue with your
    neighbor unless your lawyer is present.....he (by writ of his surveyor)
    is trying to grab your property. If he (manages) to sell his house or
    refinance off the new survey you will have extreme difficulty in getting 
    resolution...trust me..it can be horrible.
    
    While it may seem expensive to ream him now and settle the issue....it
    will be a lot more expensive to deal with later when you try to clear
    your Title for sale. Your current title issurance may cover the costs
    of having the precise survey done....or may not...its much more likely
    HE has a title problem and is trying to cleverly fix it and sell fast
    before you can stomp him with your lawyer.
    
    You are also in a position, should the descrepancy not be resolved one
    way or another, of not being able to sell your house or refinance (in the 
    future) because of obscured title to the section of lawn in question....
    this would be uncovered by a resurvey by your buyer which wouldnt agree 
    with where he has repositioned the bounds to, which wouldnt agree with
    your original purchase survey..
    
    My eventual solution was to sell the house...at well below market...with 
    disputed title to someone else who was a "friend" of the criminal neighbor.
    This only after spending several years and beacoupts money trying to
    settle in a reasonable manner.
    
    Best of luck, get a good lawyer (leech) and have a lot of patience.
    
    Ed

    
    	re.15
    
    	I've had a little experience(mine and my parents) with boundry line 
    	problems.
    
    
    		First,  walk over to his house Sat. morning(with your
    property 'map' in hand) and say:"Hi, I think we have a problem, and I'd
    like to talk about it"
    
    		This will work "MOST" of the time.
    
    
    		If that doesn't work, call the bank that he is using and
    talk to the head of the mortgage dept. and tell him there is a 
    "dispute" (<-use that word) over the line.
    
    
    		Get in touch with Your surveyor, and get a copy of his
    notes.
    
    		
    	Do the rest of the stuff mentioned in the previous replies.
    
    
    
    		ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS : ERROR OF CLOSURE.
    
    	every time a survey is done, there is a slight error.  IF your, or
    your neighbors land is the nth plot surveyed out of a large number of
    lots, and the error has been added on to both, ...You may find that
    BOTH surveys are "right". If they are off by 1%, and do 10
    plots(starting from different reference points) the two surveys 'may'
    overlap.
    
    
    		Then you are back to step one.
    
    
    		CP
    

    
    
    
    Re...   .17....
    
      I love the part about calling HIS morgage bank and tellin them there
    is a Survey dispute,....this WILL immediately put his refinancing efforts
    on hold....trust me...no doubt about it. Grab his attention right off.!!!!
    
    Great idea....do it NOW!
    
      E
    

re: .15

Yes, I might feel it unjust, but I'd still first try to settle it by dealing
directly with the neighbor.  I don't mean to imply that I wouldn't consult
with my lawyer; that would definitely be step one.  But step two would be to talk
with the neighbors.

What makes you say that the only two options are to either spend your time
digging up each others markers or to go through legal channels (which I take
to mean suing them)?  Negotiation should always be considered an option, in this
case, the best one.

   Gary 

  If the neighbor is indeed refinancing (and not selling), then
  informing his bank in writing via your lawyer will put an immediate
  hold on things.

  If he's selling, a letter to the listing broker will cool their
  interest -- no broker wants to get involved in trying to close on a
  property with a pending boundary dispute.

  The problem with such actions (and the reason to have your lawyer
  write the letters) is that the neighbor could countersue for all sorts
  of things. I'm hopeful that your lawyer is already well aware of all
  of these possibilities, and is taking the most appropriate actions.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense a lack of aggressiveness on the part of
your lawyer, Mr./Ms. Base Noter.  

Look your lawyer right in the eye and ask her if she feels she's the kind of 
lawyer you want for this case.  This is one of the most common kinds of disputes
and there is a lawyer in your county who is the *best* at handling them.  

If your lawyer isn't that person, you can be sure she knows who that person is.
I hope your neighbor hasn't already retained the best one in the county.  

A good lawyer isn't a leech, a good lawyer is your hired weapon who will go
out and take care of what needs to be done.  The rights and wrongs of this
case are only the beginning.  It isn't the lawyer's job to be right or wrong,
it's her job to *win*.  In this case, that means knowing the law, knowing 
the bankers, knowing the clerks, knowing the history, knowing all the ways 
the system works.

RE.21

I agree, we may kid alot about lawyers and what they are worth, but when 
you need one, they are worth everything. Someone earlier pointed out the 
$$$ and time and pain ofsettling a boundary problem. Settle it now, with 
the best lawyer you can find, and sue the shorts off your neighbor for 
being stupid/sneaky/inconsiderate and generally a miserable neighbor. You 
aren't gonna make friends anyway, you might as well be a real pain to him 
now with the best lawyer you can hire, and save yourself years of grief.

Neighbor and his surveyor have probably broken the law, it is time to get 
the law involved on your side and do it now while you can fight and win.

    Vic

    Yes, I agree with those that encourage us to work within the law,
    with lawyers.  As you can see by our neighbor's actions, he was
    never going to be one to negotiate with.  I'm also beginning to
    see that what might have occurred was, as mentioned in one reply,
    a "tape survey" working from an incorrect deed.
    
    This has been really demoralizing event, shocking in a way, to
    think that someone can just dig up boundary markers and put new
    ones in.  We'll continue to hammer at it legally, since it seems
    to be the only avenue, even though it is really expensive.
    
    Thanks for all the advice. 
    
                                                     

     With regard to 'notifying' the neighbor's bank:

     It might be in the bank's interest to 'forget' that they were 
notified by you.  In any case, any notification you give them or a broker 
doesn't count for anything.

     What you have to do is file a "LIS PENDENS" [your lawyer will know 
the correct spelling] at the registrar of deeds.  This becomes an 
attachment to the deed indicating that there is 'pending litigation' that 
clouds the title.  You may have to formally file suit for the reclamation 
of the land so that there actually is pending litigation so that you may 
file the lis pendens.

     No bank will touch a piece of property that has pending litigation -- 
you can't get a mortgage and you may not be able to refinance, either.  
This is the foolproof way to get the effect that has already been 
mentioned in other replies.  

     It may be that a letter simply explaining what you can do to him will 
get him to talk with you.  

Check out today's Boston Globe, I believe the next to last page of the first 
section (opposite the editorials, where they usually put the opinion columns).
There's a full page discussion layout describing why negotiating with Hussein
didn't work, and what could be done to make it work.

Then think how the analysis there could be applied to your situation.

Keeping in mind that we don't have all the details, especially not the 
neighbor's point of view, you haven't given any reason to believe that the 
neighbor is unwilling to negotiate.  That someone, perhaps the neighbor, perhaps
the neighbor's surveyor (we still don't know which) dug up the bounds is not
necessarily a sign that they are unwilling to negotiate.  Perhaps the neighbor,
having received his survey, and acting in ignorance of the law but without
malice, simply thought that these things were on his property and therefore he
had the right to remove them.  You certainly haven't given us enough information
to conclude that this is definitely not the case.  (I agree that it probably
isn't, but probably isn't good enough.)

I'd be suspicious of any attorney who advised me to file suit first, and ask
questions later.  Such a lawyer may be more interested in legal fees than
serving the client.  

   Gary

re .25:

But Gary, he probably doesn't have the air superiority to do it that way.

As one last consideration, do you really care about the 10' of lawn?  Does that
10' in any way add significantly to the value of your property?  For example, is
the boundary close enough to your house that it may cause setback problems if
you ever decided to add onto your house?  If so, then go ahead with whatever 
legal options are available.

But it's very easy to get caught up in the indignation and resentment of this 
neighbor's jerky action, and spend thousands of dollars and untold gallons of
stress-induced excess stomach acid to regain a strip of grass that you never
really cared about in the first place.  If you just quietly let the matter drop,
then there will be no border dispute to screw up your future financing or sale 
of the house, you won't be in a protracted legal battle with your neighbor, and
you'll be a couple of thousand dollars richer.

And look at the bright side - now HE has to mow that strip of grass.  :-)

Paul

Re:.27

Nah.... where's the fun in that?  Here in New England, at least,
boundary disputes are what remind you you're alive during the winter.

I agree very much with the people who say make sure your lawyer is a
good one. After you're sure, leave it to the lawyer.  I disagree with
people who advocate you personally contacting banks or insurance
companies.  Your lawyer will know when to do those things.  Calling
your bank or your title insurance company can easily backfire on you. 
Remember, the bank's interest is seeing that they get their money back
on the mortgage. The insurance company's interest is seeing that they
pay out the least amount possible in claims.  Actions that serve those
interests may not be the same actions that would serve your interest. 
In extreme cases, the bank could call the loan.  Or the title insurance
company might see a benefit to paying off the value of the strip of
land at today's lower prices and issuing a quitclaim rather than taking
a chance of a decision against them when real estate prices recover. 
Leave it to the lawyer.  His interests don't necessarily match yours,
but they're the closest.

                             >>>==>PStJTT

    My turn.
    
    The comparison of Maine State Law (.16) to New Hampshire Law is
    of no value in this discussion.  I don't know N.H. Law, but in
    Massachusetts, I can assure you that just because you stick a 
    rock in the ground, it doesn't become correct just because it
    sits there for seven years.  As an example, for those who work
    in the Mill, the exit from the Main Street Parking lot, beside
    Building 21, (Front Street to Sudbury Street) was moved 20 feet
    this past fall because the owner of one of the houses discovered
    that the Town of Maynard had incorrectly laid out the road over
    80 years ago over his property.  He proved it and the road was
    relocated onto what Digital thought was it's land.
    
    In Massachusetts, disputes between landowners end up in Land
    Court, where a Judge rules on the case and a new plan is 
    registered which supersedes all previous plans and deeds.  
    
    Regardless of the Laws of New Hampshire, don't waste another
    dime on this dispute until you verify the validity of your 1981 
    survey.  Hopefully you can find the surveyor and he or she will
    tell you that a transit was used to determine angles (as in 
    so many degrees north, so many minutes west).  If so, you are
    in much better shape than if a taped (or horseback) survey was
    used.  Referencing .17, if a calculated survey was performed,
    the resulting "error" will be in the area of 100th of a foot,
    at most (still within the drill hole on a bound).  "Real" 
    surveyors triple all angle turns and use steel tapes with 
    temperature corrections (since we all know that steel tapes 
    can vary as much as 300ths of a foot depending on the outside
    temperature!).  Unfortunately, most surveys today are horseback
    and result in cartoons submitted to banks as Mortgage Inspection
    Plans.  Not worth a whole lot (no pun intended).  Working from
    an Inspection Plan to set a bound is an invitation to disaster.
    
    Let's assume that both you and your neighbor are working with
    taped surveys. (See invitation to disaster, above).  A ten foot 
    discrepency is still enormous.  In order to figure out who's right, 
    you need to find a valid starting point (a known good bound), and 
    start measuring back to the dispute from both sides.  I assume that 
    you had bounds placed on the other side of your property.  Just to 
    make sure you have an argument, measure from this point to the disputed 
    area, and see what it looks like, compared with your plot plan.  Do 
    the same from where your neighbor started, and see how his frontage 
    lines up.  If you still have an overlap, go to the next lots, if possible.
    It may very well be that one of you is using an incorrect reference
    point.  Who knows, maybe some other neighbor moved a bound and threw 
    you both course and now you and your neighbor can gang up on someone
    else and become friends again!!
    
    Two last points:
    
    I wouldn't bother going to the Town or City unless you want to 
    dig out your neighbor's plot plan.  They only have copies of 
    recorded plans.
    
    As for Title Insurance, good luck.  Mine says:
    
    "This policy does not insure against loss or damage by reason of
    the following:
    
    .....3.  Encroachments, overlaps, boundary line disputes, and any
    other matters which would be disclosed by an accurate survey and
    inspection of the premises."
    
    I've gone through exactly this type of dispute in the past, and
    after a knock on the door, we mutually taped the properties, and
    we came to the same conclusions.  I won ten feet of his lawn,
    put up a 6 foot stockade fence and we never spoke again.....  
    
    Good luck,
    Frank
    
                                   

Well, ten feet sounds like a lot of lawn to me.  If our neighbor's yard had
been one inch (1/12 of a foot) wider, we'd have five condos next door to us
right now instead of a nice old house with a big yard.

    Note if you try measuring distances yourself: in surverying, all
    measurements are taken horizontally, so if you have a slope involved
    you need to use a level (or a good eye) to hold the tape truly
    horizontal, and "step" down (or up) the hill.  Vertical distance
    doesn't count.

    An Aside...

>    Note if you try measuring distances yourself: in surverying, all
>    measurements are taken horizontally, so if you have a slope involved
>    you need to use a level (or a good eye) to hold the tape truly
>    horizontal, and "step" down (or up) the hill.  Vertical distance
>    doesn't count.
      
      This true fact leads to the following, equally true bit of trivia:
      
      An  Acre  on  a  hillside  has  more surface than an Acre of level
      ground.

      Acres are measured with the boundaries horizontal.

Paul (re. Paul Weis)

I can understand how 10 feet might not sound like a great deal of land.  But, 
it seems to me that 10 feet is much more than I would be willing to let go.

If it was your land, do you really believe that you would allow someone to take 
10 feet?  What if the person on the other side did the same?  Now you would be 
out 20 feet of land.  Now, consider that the neighbor behind you did that, also.
You would now be out 10 feet on 3 sides of your land.

What makes 10 feet so small?  What if it was 20 feet?  30 feet?  Where do you
decide that the person has taken too much?  In my opinion, if there was a
dispute, the neighbor should have discussed it and a formal survey could have
been financed by both neighbors.

Ed..

My point was simply: Don't assume that because you have been "wronged" that you
must right that wrong.  Of course your neighbor shouldn't have simply removed
your bounds, and you have definitely been "wronged".  But if it costs you more
to rectify that wrong than the land was worth to you in the first place, then 
you've just compounded the problem.

I can honestly say that on two sides of my land I would not pursue a 10' border 
dispute.  Those borders are far enough away from my house and in the woods that
I'm not likely to ever make any particular use of that 10' strip, and it would
cost me more in time and aggravation to regain the strip than it's worth.  Aside
from the indignation and resentment of having someone be such a jerk to me, I 
don't really care where the boundaries are on those two sides. On the third 
side, I would definitely pursue it, it's close enough to the house and my usable
yard that I wouldn't want it encroached.

The guy's been a jerk, and he's cost you something by his thoughless actions:
either the piece of land (if you do nothing), or the time and aggravation of
reclaiming it.  All I'm saying is: recognize that you do have that choice, don't
just assume that your only recourse is to reclaim it.  Go out and look at the
border, and picture him putting up a fence on his side.  Picture it where it 
should go according to your bounds, and picture it where he would put it if you
let him claim the land.  Does it make a significant difference in the look of
your property?

If it matters to you, for whatever reason, then pursue it.  I'm just reminding
you to ask the question "Does it matter" before you spend thousands of dollars
on it.  Ask yourself "If the boundary was where he set it, and he offered to
sell me the strip to where it should be for the thousands of dollars that it 
will cost to reclaim it, would I be interested in buying it?"  If the answer is
no, then you might not want to spend the money

One other thing to check, that I just thought of.  Find out how much road 
frontage your neighbor's lot has.  Most towns have frontage limits on building
lots, and they are generally not likely to grant variances to short-frontage 
lots.  If the town limit is (say) 200 ft, and his lot is 392 feet wide, then by
(oops) surveying a little optimistically on your side he can increase the
frontage to over 400 feet, which would allow him to subdivide.  It will be much
harder to back up and challenge the survey if you let him get that subdivision
through.

Paul

>     I can honestly say that on two sides of my land I would not pursue
>     a 10' border dispute.  

      I disagree. Emphatically.  Robert Frost said
      
          "Good fences make good nieghbors."
      
      The  implication  is  that if you and your neighbor can't agree on
      where the boundary is it WILL eventually become a  major  problem.
      It  may  seem  to  be more bother and more money that its worth to
      pursue this and get it officially settled.  But have not doubt! --
      If  you  don't  get  it settled now it will be even more money and
      more bother sometime in the future.  (If you're lucky you'll  have
      sold  the  property  and the bother/money will be on someone else,
      but don't count on that.)
      
      BTW,  if  you  willing to accept the loss of 10 feet of land, what
      happens when your neighbor comes back in a year or two and  claims
      another 10 feet?  etc., etc., etc.

OK, suppose he dug up the markers and moved the bounds 1 inch onto your 
property.  Is it still worth fighting over because next year he might want 
another inch?

Paul

    	A similar problem happened to my father-in-law. His new neighbor,
    had to install a new septic system. So he (neighbor) had the land
    surveyed. The finding was 15' of dad's property was no longer his. Dad
    had the his land surveyed, about 20 years ago, the findings were as the
    previous plan stated (~1920). The new surveyor placed stakes, and
    painted  lines on the new bound. Dad knowing that he was right, waited
    for the most opportune time to confront the neighbor, the day the
    equipment came to start digging for the new septic. He approached the
    neighbor and asked what the new lines were for. He replied that was the
    boundary. Dad said well what about the one at the water?? (this
    property is on a lake). The neighbor said yes you have some of your
    beach on my property. Dad argued that his surveyor was wrong. 
    
    	"But it doesn't really matter, I have 80' of water frontage so
    let's tell the neighbor on the other side that I now own 15' of his
    beach, because you say so.", argued dad.

    	Well to make a long story short, the old bounds were right. The
    surveyor had missed an old "right of way", that was (you guessed it)
    15'. This was 8 lots back. In fact the neighbor's well is on dad's
    land.

    	One thing to remember is, if your bounds are moved, so are the
    bounds for the other neighbors in the neighborhood. You may want to get
    them involved, since they will be eventually. Remember, your frontage
    should stay the same, what you lose on one side you gain on the other.
    Now tell the neighbor that he will have to give up 10 on the other side
    of him (since his frontage stays the same also).


    			CB

re .29:

>    of no value in this discussion.  I don't know N.H. Law, but in
>    Massachusetts, I can assure you that just because you stick a 
>    rock in the ground, it doesn't become correct just because it
>    sits there for seven years.  As an example, for those who work
>    in the Mill, the exit from the Main Street Parking lot, beside
>    Building 21, (Front Street to Sudbury Street) was moved 20 feet
>    this past fall because the owner of one of the houses discovered
>    that the Town of Maynard had incorrectly laid out the road over
>    80 years ago over his property.  He proved it and the road was
>    relocated onto what Digital thought was it's land.
    
I'm curious how adverse posession laws come into this.  The town had
adverse possesion by having a road there, and the company that owned
the Mill before Digital had adverse posession of the land where the
road is now (railroad tracks were there).

-Mike

    When I investigated getting a GI loan for a property they explained
    that there were certain types of lots that were not accepted and the
    reason was that after WWII there were lots of [shady] developers who
    would sell, e.g., 10 lots on a 900' street, each with 100' frontage
    just by changing stones as it became convenient for each lot.
    
    I didn't see how that tied in with my situation but filed it away with
    other useless info.
    
    ed

    Re: .38:
    
    Mike, while I was typing in the example of the Town of Maynard vs.
    the homeowner on Front Street, the question of Adverse Possession
    crossed my mind, but I decided to not reference it because my reply
    seemed too confusing as it was.
    
    BUT, I don't know why the Town didn't claim Adverse Possession, which
    as I recall is an open and continuous use of property for 20 years
    with no resistance from the landowner.  In this situation, there is
    implied consent and thus the user of the land, in this case the Town
    of Maynard, gains the right to the land.  It may be that the Town
    had been taxing the poor landowner for many years and felt that the
    honorable thing to do was to acknowledge the error and move the road.
    
    Let's tie this back to the original note, and further confuse the
    issue.  If New Hampshire has a Right of Adverse Possession Law, it's
    worth exploring.  As I mentioned previously, State Laws vary greatly,
    but it may be that by continual use of the ten foot strip, over a
    documented period of time, with passive consent of the neighbor, as 
    in no objection, the right to the land may have been transferred to
    our original noter. 
    
    I have a feeling that we are about to go rat hole on Adverse
    Possession here, and I am frantically digging for my file on this
    issue, since I went through this about ten years ago with a previous
    property.
    
    Found it.  My recollection on Adverse Possession above is correct.
    To further confound everyone, there is an Easement by Prescription
    that could apply to this situation, where you claim a right to use
    a piece of land, but make no claim of ownership.  
    
    Aren't you glad you live in New England?
    
    Frank   

My neighbor tried to buy a strip one inch wide and as deep as his lot from
the neighbor on the other side, a church.  They were going to sell it to him
for a nominal price.  What's an inch?  If the sale had gone through, my 
neighbor's lot would have been big enougb to allow the construction of two
more buildings.  He had a sale set up with a developer who was going to 
subdivide his house into two condos and then tack five more condos onto that.  
My neighbor was going to get $400,000 for his house and lot with that extra
inch added to it.  Without the extra inch, the house and lot were only worth
$260,000 and the developer backed out and it was sold to a small family who
rents just one apartment.  That apartment alone adds two cars to his driveway
and one boyfriend's car to the street.  I hate to think what 7 condos would
have added.

The $160,000 inch.  The inch that turned a quiet neighborhood into a parking
lot.  The inch that never was.  Just one inch, but instead of seven condos
looking into my living room window, I can look out my living room window and
watch his birdbath that's sitting in the middle of a vast green lawn that's 
just one inch too narrow.

If my neighbor had been crooked, he would have done just what the base noter's
neighbor did.

Me, in .34:

>One other thing to check, that I just thought of.  Find out how much road 
>frontage your neighbor's lot has.  Most towns have frontage limits on building
>lots, and they are generally not likely to grant variances to short-frontage 
>lots.  If the town limit is (say) 200 ft, and his lot is 392 feet wide, then by
>(oops) surveying a little optimistically on your side he can increase the
>frontage to over 400 feet, which would allow him to subdivide.  It will be much
>harder to back up and challenge the survey if you let him get that subdivision
>through.

Paul

>OK, suppose he dug up the markers and moved the bounds 1 inch onto your 
>property.  Is it still worth fighting over because next year he might want 
>another inch?

      The answwer is "Yes, one inch is worth fighting over."  A previous
      reply gave an example of why this can be so.
      
      But to be fair I'll conceed that "IS worth fighting over" might be
      better changed to "CAN BE work fighting over".
      
      Would I fight over one inch?  Well, I'd at least fight hard enough
      to ensure to be sure I knew what was going on.  So far  as  I  can
      remember reading the base noter has no idea of what his neighbor's
      intentions are.
      
      In that case, I'd fight.

    
    
    	10 ft wide x 100 ft deep = 1000 sq ft.
    
    	1000 ft sq ~ 1/43 acre.
    
    		1 acre building lot = approx $70,000
    
    	That 10 ft strip of land just cost $1,600
    
    
    		Pleas keep us posted tas to the outcome
    
    	CP
    

re: .44

A 1 acre building lot may be worth approximately $70K, but a 1+1/43 acre
building lot is also worth approximately $70K.  The value of that particular
1000 sq. ft.  depends very much on whether or not it can change an unbuildable
lot into a buildable lot.

   Gary

    There is another factor to consider before you decide that the
    legal and emotional cost of fighting over a ten foot strip is not
    worth the hassle.   If you let your neighbor take the disputed
    10 foot strip, without a protest, you are going to continue to pay 
    the real estate taxes on the land.  This is no small gift to your
    neighbor.
    
    Example:
    
    My half acre lot in Maynard is assessed at $97,200. (land value, not
    total property value).  Maynard's residential tas rate is $10.50 per
    $1,000 of value.  Now, let's assume that my lot is 100 by 200 for the 
    sake of simplicity (20,000 sq. ft.)   One hundred feet of frontage
    by 200 feet of sideyard.
    
    If I surrender a 10 by 200 foot strip, I lose the use of 2,000 square 
    feet of land.  BUT, I continue to pay $102. per year in taxes for the 
    land.  
    
    Before someone suggests that the neighbor might be willing to pay the
    taxes on the strip, I submit that memories are short and property 
    changes hands on occasion, and "poof", you're right back into the same
    hassle again.
    
    Advise: Go the legal route and settle it once and for all.  When and
    if you sell the property, the money you spend now will be well worth
    it in the long run.
    
    Frank
    
       
    
    
    

re value of land:

The value of land (at least for tax purposes) is not proportional to its area. 
I felt that my property was overassessed for tax purposes and when I got the
tax bill the reason seemed obvious.  They had me listed as having twice as much
land as I really had. I filed for an abatement, and got it - for having 1.3
acres less my property was valued as being worth all of $4000 less.

Infuriated, I went to the town hall and checked the surrounding land values,
but it was consistant with what I saw.  Land was valued at about $50,000 for
being a buildable (or built) lot, and all land over some minimum was valued
at $3,000/acre.  Regardless of whether a lot could be divided into n parcels
(but if it *was* divided into n parcels they were valued at ~50K each).

-Mike

    re: .-1
    
    Not to go too much farther down the rathole...  The reason for the
    discrepancy in the land values is to keep the land in large parcels.
    There is some incentive to the taxpayer to keep larger parcels together
    if the taxes on those parcels is less than they would be as individual
    building lots.  This is a common practice in both MA and NH.  This also
    tends to slow down growth in the town.
    
    Dan

In fact, they don't always rely on minimum building lot sizes.  In my town,
lots are assessed at a certain high value for the first acre, and then a low
value for each additional acre, even though minimum lot sizes for new 
construction in residential zones are 2 or 3 acres.

   Gary

	Actually, it is a practical, reasonable, practice. Essentially, the
land is evaluated based on the market. A 1 acre lot will sell for approximately
the same as a 5 acre lot if both can only support one home. You are buying
a house lot. I know. I own a 5 acre lot which cost the same as all the
1.5 acre lots around it. No problems with the land either (wetlands, easements,
etc.). However, it can not be subdivided so all it will ever be is a single
family house lot. The banks and real estate agents look at it this way too.

	As do the buyers. I wanted a large lot and very quickly realized I
didn't have to pay any more than a smaller lot. I even saw some 10+ acre lots
which were the same price as a 1 acre lot.

								Mark

    I just wanted to enter an update on the situation.  We met with our
    lawyer and our neighbor's surveyor.  The surveyor claims that he
    didn't "see" any stone bounds.   We all walked the property and did
    some rough measuring and "eyeballing".  It appears that our surveyor
    went up a long-established street to find a reference point (city
    marker of some sort) and did his measurement from there.  That was
    about 9 properties up the street.  From there, everything appeared to
    be in order -- that is, all the bounds on the 9 properties appeared to
    be o.k.
    
    Our neighbor's surveyor went one street over, into a relatively new
    development, and started from [says this on the survey] "an iron
    pipe" in the front of an adjoining property.
    
    So, now we're where I feel we should have been in the first place --
    the two surveyors will be trying to determine which survey is correct.
    If both are correct, it will then go to land court for resolution.
    
    With regard as to whether or not the ten feet is of value.  We own a
    corner lot -- our property is bounded by three streets, front and
    both sides.  Our neighbor is across the side street, and believes that
    ten feet of what we consider to be our property belongs to him.  In
    actuality, we think that his property is under the street.
    
    FYI, our home is over 100 years old.  The street dividing our
    properties was upgraded to city-acceptance level in 1954.  
    
    

  Sounds great. Any word from the neighbor?

    RE: .51:
    
    In a prior life, I spent many years as a Surveyor and Civil 
    Engineer and I was having a lot of fun recalling my past
    experiences with land disputes, but when you mentioned an
    "accepted" City street between you and your neighbor, you
    opened up a whole new can of worms.  
    
    Best of luck,
    Frank

    .53:
    
    Care to elaborate on that, Frank?
    
    Dick

re .51:

I don't think I understand.  The neighbor thinks he owns, in addition to his
lot, the road and a part of your side of the road?  Or does he think that
if his deed says he owns 0.9 acres, and the measurements of his lot come out
to be 0.8 acres, he must own 0.1 acres on your side of the road or something?

-Mike

    We don't know what he thinks -- our property markers are right up to
    the road.  For some reason, he believes that he owns ten feet of
    property across the road from his property -- the ten feet that
    our survey indicated as being our property.  That's all we know.  
    
    As stated in the base note, our first knowledge of a disagreement
    is when we found our stone bounds removed and new stones planted
    ten feet into our property -- without discussion or notification of
    any kind.
    

    Well, I'm back!  Thanks, Dick. I owe you, pal.   :*)
    
    Everything in this note was going along fine (?) until the 
    revelation of an "accepted" city street came between the two
    properties.  The key word here is "accepted", as opposed to
    right-of-way, or easement.
    
    Cities and Towns don't normally go around looking for streets
    to maintain.  Developers or abutters petition the City Council
    or Town Meeting to get the city or town to "accept" ownership
    of a street.  This is a legal process that includes "laying
    out" the street by angle and distance, and construction of the
    street to city or town standards.  My point is that someone
    or some group asks the city or town to "take my street, please".
    
    When a city or town "accepts" a street, there are specific laws
    that kick in that, in effect, wipe out any future claims of 
    ownership by abutters, and clears the title to the land.  The 
    city or town files a deed and claims ownership of the land under 
    the street.  
    End of story.  
    
    In the case of our original note, it is impossible for the neighbor
    to hop across the accepted street to claim ownership of his missing
    10 foot strip.  It just can't happen.  Streets don't create more
    land.  If anything, the neighbor *might* claim that the street was 
    laid out incorrectly, as we've discussed previously in the Front Street 
    issue at the Mill, but I haven't heard this yet.
    
    IF the street is laid out incorrectly, the noter may still lose her 10
    feet, but it will the city or town making the claim, not the neighbor.  
    The neighbor's 10 feet would be in the street and everything would have
    to shift over.  
    
    Sooooo, now you have the noter, her neighbor, her bank, and the
    City all looking for the missing 10 foot strip.  
    
    The reason I gave up (or tried to) was that I can't imagine why the
    neighbor would claim 10 feet of land ACROSS an accepted street from 
    his property.  What's the point?  
    
    Frank
    
     
    
    That's a can of worms....
    

    Well, it's been 2 months since the last entry in here.
    
    Can we have an update to the dispute?
    
    Lee

    Sorry, we had a death in the family, and this property issues was put
    on the back burner.  Current status is that the dispute goes to Land
    Court.  More after that takes place.

    So when does it go to land court?
    
    Jim

    I need to purchase field stones to build a stone fence. Does anyone
    know of a good source?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Darlene Skupien
    GBMMKT::SKUPIEN

If it's really round field stones that you want, you don't necessarily
need to buy them.  When we decided to build a field stone wall at our
last house, I was able to get plenty by just stopping at construction
sites.  Nobody cared if I took them -- they just have to pay to get
rid of them.  Of course, you may want to buy them just so that someone 
else is arranging the transportation.  They should be literally dirt 
cheap (other than transportation), since they aren't good for much.

If it's shaped stone (two or more sides flat and parallel) that you
want, I'm sorry but I cannot help you.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I don't know where you live, but in Sudbury, Ma. - where I live -
    we are fortunate to have Precourt, Inc., on Union Ave.  They
    carry all kinds of stone from rough to finished (like polished
    granite for kitchen counters).  When we made a garden pool last
    year, we purchased "Pennsylvania Fieldstone" from them to
    make the edging from.  They are very helpful in listening to
    what you want to do and then showing you around the yard to
    look at different solutions.
    
    		Dick
     

    There's a company in Westminster, I think, that sells fieldstone.
    Sorry, I can't remember the name, but I got the name from Neil
    Jorgensen, a landscape architect in Harvard, Mass.  He would no
    doubt tell you if you gave him a call.
    

    
    
    ....Fitzgerald & Day inc.  Gardner....508-632-5141
    
    

    Re: .4
    
    Yep - that's the place.
    

      <<< PFEAST::NAPIER$TOOL4:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CLASSIFIED_ADS.NOTE;10060 >>>
             -< Welcome to C_A, Please READ THE RULES in Note 2.* >-
================================================================================
Note 10370.0                     FREE stone wall                      No replies
GOLF::BROUILLET                                      18 lines   1-JUN-1992 13:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don Brouillet
    DTN 234-4696
    GOLF::BROUILLET
    
    A few people were going to take this, but nobody showed up yet.  First
    come, first served.  Must go this week, and you NEED a truck,
    preferably heavy duty.  A lot of people don't realize how heavy a few
    rocks are.
    
    FREE:  rocks from a collapsed stone wall.  Roughly a 20' section of a
    3' wall (above grade, must be some below grade too. I don't know if
    these rocks would be called fieldstone, or something better - many of
    them have at least one smooth face.
    
    Conditions:  You must agree to take all the rocks, as well as any
    chunks of mortar left behind.  The wall is located at my mother's house
    in Athol, MA.  You'll need to supply all labor yourself, no help
    available.

    anyone tried a DIY stone wall since the last note here?  we're going
    to build a curved ramp which will arch from the garage around and up
    to the side/front yard.  This is to make hauling garden carts and
    implements of destruction easier than bumping things up and down the
    inserted steps or around the perimeter of the property.  The ramp will
    be about 4' wide and we hope the angle will be 30-40 degrees across
    an area that is about 25' wide.  The stone wall will be part of the
    shoring up that will need to happen.  Has anyone tried such a feat?
    
    c

    I started building a drystone wall last fall.  This was to terrace a
    part of my yard where a gap in the ledge is washing out in the rain. 
    The wall is currently 3' high, of which about a foot is underground,
    and an arc 10' or so wide.  It needs to go up another foot or so, when
    I recover more stone from the yard.

    Because this is just to buttress a terrace, I inclined the wall
    backwards a few degrees so that the wall "leans" into the grade.  As
    each  course was laid down, larger stones are laid inwards as sleepers.
    
    (Another reason for doing it this way is that I come from a place where
    drystone walls abound, and I know what skill it takes to create
    a vertical drystone wall that will stay put.  Drystone terracing is
    easier to do.)
    
    If you build a vertical mortared wall you will probably have to put in
    some decent footings. However, if you just use the dry stone to face
    the side of the ramp, and make the sides of the ramp a slope, frost
    heave can do little damage to it.

    This also works out well if you are using native stone from your yard,
    as opposed to bought flat stone.  The stuff from my yard is irregular
    with fewer flat stones.

    Every few feet is a hole that is filled behind with soil & compost.
    This is to provide places for hardy perennial plants & shrubs later.
    The plants will improve the look, but also the root systems will help
    stabilize the fill.  

    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    Wow, a 9 year old note! (Anyone remember $ SHELF ? ) 
    Just wanted to report that the LKG wall did not stand the test of 
    time. It wasn't put together very well, and heaved and fell down in 
    several places. (Although it looks as though someone has gone around
    and piled the rocks back into the wall. They'll fall again though, 
    I'm sure.)
    I saw something on the news once that said they have a problem in
    places like Concord, MA, where sometimes people go into the woods and
    help themselves and remove stones from 200-300+ year-old walls.
    Supposedly now they have some kind of forest-ranger type person to try
    and put a stop to it. Maybe they fine you a dollar-a-pound? :-)
    

    
    Actually, the fine is $50 per stone. No kidding.
    
    There are people who go to towns like Barre with flatbed trucks
    and cranes and disassemble farm walls (illegally) and sell the 
    stone. They can get a fortune for it on the Cape.
    
    								- Mac

    There's more than aesthetics/theft involved in the removal of stone
    walls.  They are quite often boundary lines in old deeds.  The
    phrase "...as the wall now stands" shows up over and over again.

    
    re: -.1
    
    	Absolutely. It's also common practice to use a feature (e.g corner)
    	or ADD a feature (e.g. drill hole in a stone) to mark positions on
    	a boundary. According to a recent survey of my property, a corner 
    	of "my" stone bound almost defines the entire neighborhood... it's 
    	about the only trustworthy measuring point to begin from for quite
    	a ways.
    
    								- Mac

	    Cultivate your stones they way they used to.  Plow, hit a rock, 
	pile it on the wall, plow, hit a rock, pile it on the wall...

					Tim

    Need some advice.
    
    I have a stone wall on my back yard property border, about 80'.  The
    wall is very old, crooked, and ugly.  I believe all the stones are on
    my side of the property line.  The wall has been there since long
    before my house or my bordering neighbors house ever existed.  
    
    My neighbor has the advantage in that he has been using my property
    as part of his yard for many years.  It varies from about 8 feet to
    perhaps one foot.  
    
    I would like to remove the stone wall, and put up a nice straight
    wooden fence.  This is impossible to do today due to the stone wall
    being in the way and being so crooked.
    
    My neighbors are nice people, and I plan to discuss them with them
    before I do anything.  
    
    I am wondering if legally there are any issues with my removing this
    stone wall that has been there "somewhat forever", or with any other
    of my plans mentioned above.
    
    Has anyone shared similar experiences?  Thanks, Mark
     

    
    Regardless of whose property it is on, if (according to the land
    records) it is referred to as a "stone bound" (stone boundary) not
    only are you NOT allowed to muck with it... but it is a $50 fine 
    per stone for movinng it or removing stones from it (in MA).
    
    								- Mac
                                                        

    Yes, old deeds are frequently written in terms like, "...12 chains 
    16 links North 35 degrees 17 minutes East as the wall now stands...."
                                              ----------------------
    
    You probably ought to check with a surveyor, or somebody, before
    messing with it.  It may turn out not to be an issue...but then
    again, it might.  Based on your description, it sounds as though
    it's no longer significant as a property line, if it ever was
    (it may have just been a random wall a farmer put up in the middle
    of a field), but old deed stuff can get pretty obscure.
    

    I should have also stated that there are official property markers
    staked in the ground (which is why I know that the stones are on
    my property) at my 4 corners of my property.  These are metal stakes
    with numbers on them and are probably referenced markers on my deed.
    
    I am making calls and will check all the paperwork I have, then if all
    seems ok will talk to my neighbor as a courtesy to make sure he has
    no objections.
    
    Thanks so far...  Mark

    Installing the correct markers and using your property is very
    important.  There is such a law as adverse possession that kicks
    in at about 20 years of another person maintaining/using your
    property.   

    Check with your building inspector.  

    justme

    
    Also keep in mind that a stone wall which directly crosses your 
    property (as opposed to demarcating the edges) can still be legally 
    a stone bound (and therefore "untouchable") if the measurement of 
    another property's demarcations is based off of the stone bound.
    You'd rarely see anyone exercise such an obscurity... but it is always
    a possibility.
    
    Personally, I think of stone bounds as historic and I think they
    should be preserved (even re-stacked) whenever possible... even when 
    they no longer represent a boundary. 
    
    If you decide to remove the wall and discard the stone, if it is the 
    tradional New England farm stone (dark green/black, with lichens and 
    such)... I suggest contacting a wall stone provider to see if they 
    want to buy it.  This stone is in such demand that operations actually
    head out to smaller towns with equipment to actually STEAL it.
    Apparently there's a big market for it in places like Cape Cod. I know
    I posted somewhere else re: groups stealing stone bounds in Barre.
    80 foot of a reasonably sized stone bound could easily be 20 tons of
    stone... it'll take a lot of runs with a pickup truck to remove it if
    you don't call in a "pro".
    
    								- Mac

	Depending on where you are, if you decide to remove the
wall and decide that you're permitted to, I may be able to help
with the stones...I'm always looking for more for MY walls in
progress...

    I have had about 12 offers to take the stones already.  That part is
    great!  
    
    We ran a line from the two corner markers yesterday.  Only about 12"
    of the wall resides partly in the neighbors yard, the rest is in my
    yard varying from a few inches to about 8 feet from the line.
    
    So far everyone at town hall has said it is ok to remove the stones,
    but we still have more checking to do.  It is not referenced in our
    deed according to my wife.  I will read it tonite.  Folks at townhall
    reviewed it also, but we still need to confirm with the legal dept and
    the engineering dept.  I also know a surveryor and lawyer in town and
    will talk to the both of them as well.
    
    - Mark

    

I asked my husband about this, he is a stone masson and has been for many 
years.  He runs into this alot in his line of business.

He said, if you own at least 2ft on the other side of the wall, then you
can do what ever you want to the wall.  (but you should be nice and talk
to your neighbor anyway)

If the wall is a property line wall, then you can't do anything to it with
out the permission of the neighbor.  If the neighbor has no objection then
you don't even need the town involved.

lkp
    

In the town of Boxboro it is illegal to even remove a few stones in a stone 
wall just to make a walkway.  The ENTIRE town's stone wall system is 
protected as part of some historical pact.

The fine for removing the stones will bankrupt you if you're in the wrong 
town.

We tried to move a stone wall in the middle of our 3 acre property in 
Westfield.  No dice.  Can't be touched as a historical landmark. ...and we 
owned 100 feet on either side of the wall.

Maybe you can get away with it in New Hampshire, but not in most 
Massachusetts towns.

    Well we have talked to everyone at town hall and our neighbors.
    There are no objections to removing this wall.  Everyone iterated
    what was said here;  if it is referenced as a boundary/marker on the
    deeds it would be a problem.  It is not referenced.
    
    We are ready to have it removed if anyone is still interested.  I would
    also be interested in having someone come out with some heavy equipment
    that could remove the very large stones, if anyone has such equipment
    or can recommend someone.  
    
    I will repost my offer in "classads.notes".  I have not received a
    definate commitement from anyone yet, but have had a lot of interest.
    
    Thanks, Mark