Conference 7.286::home_work

What sort of ideas are they?  I know you don't want to be too specific and give 
things away, but generally?  Are they tools or devices likely to be used to 
help repair/build things around the home?  If not, then this isn't really the 
right place.  Even if they are, you're not terribly likely to find the sort of 
marketing advice, patent advice (?), etc that you're looking for in this file.
If you find someone here to help you, great, but you might get better response 
in ASKENET (wherever that lives now).

Paul

    one product would extend the life of cedar fence posts by about
    twice the present time, and the other woul be used to insulate between
     windows

    
    There was a note I saw recently, though I don't clearly remember
    which conference, where there was discussion about bringing a plastic
    product to market. There was an offer there to help build the mold
    for a plastic extruded product, etc.....  
    
    You should post your request in ASKENET. you might get some pointers
    there.
    
    
    rgds, Ray 

	A former co-worker of mine had some ideas of novelties she would
    like to make in plastic and market. I know she called several places
    in the Fitchburg area. (Did you know that's where the first plastic
    resins were developed?) Anyway, there could be a company that takes
    this kind of ideas and makes them to your specs. Marketing would
    probably be on your side of the deal. Good luck!!    

    re:-.1
    
    Did your former co-worker every actual build any of her ideas?
    In fact, is this former co-worker a FORMER co-worker because she left
    Digital and successfully marketed/sold her ideas?

    Bill
    

    She's a former co-worker because I changed jobs. From my conversations
    with her, I understand she had cost estimates which means someone
    was willing to manufacture the widgets for her. I don't know if
    she ever pursued it further.

    "Don't bother with a patent."
    
    Those were the words of Steven Caney, inventor, when he addressed
    a group of parents at my son's school last week.  He was speaking
    there as part of a federal program to encourage creativity and 
    'inventiveness' in primary school age children.  He personally owns
    several patents but suggests that for the majority of ideas they
    are not worth the time, effort or expense.  His belief is that once
    you reach an agreement with a distributor of some sort (marketing,
    manufacturing, engineering, whatever), if your idea is worth patenting,
    they will pay for it.  And you will still be the owner of the patent.
    You are assured of this stature by something he referred to as 'Date
    of conception'.
    
    By way of example (Caney's): Once you can express your idea in a
    drawing or sketch identify a company you believe would most likely
    produce/market the product.  You determine this by recognizing
    associated products and getting the company name/address from the
    box said items are sold in.  Send your idea to that company and
    simply ask them if they are interested in producing/selling your
    idea and if so they can contact you for further information.  To
    protect your idea you also send a registered letter to yourself
    with the same information to establish the 'date of conception'.
    (There is also a government agency which will accept this information
    if you want to be more formal but he implied the registered letter
    to self was all that was needed in all but extreme cases.)
    
    He has several books out including "Steven Caney's Invention book"
    which provides this type of information as well as many many examples
    of 'inventions' and creations.
    
    Good luck - I've got a few ideas of my own that I'll now carry through
    the process a bit further.  
    
    						Stan
    
    ps.  He did say that he sold his early outright but has since learned
    the advantages of selling on royalty.  The example he related was
    a crystal radio set which he tried to sell outright for $500.  The
    company decided $500 was too much and decided to give him a royaly
    instead.  To date he's collected over 1/2 million and the 6-month
    checks keep coming in.

    Re: .7
    I have heard that the registered-letter-to-yourself trick is
    absolutely WORTHLESS for establishing ANYTHING about a patent.
    It has no legal validity whatsoever.

>    I have heard that the registered-letter-to-yourself trick is
>    absolutely WORTHLESS for establishing ANYTHING about a patent.
>    It has no legal validity whatsoever.

I've heard the same thing.  What it may be referring to is that a letter is
certainly worthless unless you have the postmark on the drawing to be patented.
Just on the envelope is no good, because you could just send a bunch of
envelopes to yourself, and then stuff them later.  Even folding up the plan so
that the postmark was on the back of the sheet itself wouldn't necessarily do
it, since you could send blank sheets and then photocopy the plans onto the
back side later.  About the only way I can imagine it having validity would be
if the postmark was actually over some part of the plan.  To be safe, you
probably need to get it notarized or something. 

Anybody know for sure?

re: decision not to patent.

As I read your note, it became clear that you were talking about getting the 
patent later, but putting it off can be extremely expensive.  It is estimated 
that the inventors of the spreadsheet have lost between .5 and 1 BILLION 
dollars because they didn't patent it (on the best legal advice of the time -
don't you love lawyers?). 

Paul

>							It is estimated 
>that the inventors of the spreadsheet have lost between .5 and 1 BILLION 
>dollars because they didn't patent it (on the best legal advice of the time -
>don't you love lawyers?). 

That's lawyer talk.  There's no way to verify such speculation.  
Besides, if you remember at the time there was already a big bruhah 
going on about the legality of patenting software. (I'm not even sure it 
has been settled to this day.)

I wondered about the envelope scam.  Post-stuffing the envelope was the 
first thing at occured to me.  Personally, I'd go get each of the pages
notarized with a statement to the effect that you appeared on
such-and-such a date and swore these drawings were your own property. If
the notary's seal intersects the drawings, that should be strong enough
evidence.  
				>>>==>PStJTT

    I've got an interesting, probably quite weird idea about putting
    heat into a 12x32 addition to my garrison style house.  I presently
    use oil FHW, 2 zones and don't want to buy a new burner to handle
    the additional load (mega $$$).  Since I have a 1,000gal tank
    underground, oil fired seems to be the way to go.  The killer
    is I'd have to build a new chimney to conform to the law of you
    can't put two "burners" into the same flue.  This will destroy the
    asthetics from the outside.
    Anyway, I've been mulling over the idea of picking up an electric
    hot water heater, filling it with water and anti-freeze, isolating
    it from the domestic water supply to prevent the possibility of
    contamination, and hooking up a couple of feet of baseboard,
    thermostat, etc.
    My theory is:
    		1 - I only need heat part of the year so heating the
    water by electric isn't going to require floating a bank loan to
    pay the bill.
    		2 - If I were to install a 50gal size, heat it up to
    about 150 deg., then circulate this around the "loop", the temperature
    drop on the return may be around 100.  The water/AF still in the
    tank shouldn't drop more than a couple of degrees and will take
    some time before the low temp senso kicks in.  This means the critter
    won't be cycling on and off frequently (lower cost+longer element
    life).
    		3 - If Momma wants to drag me to a warm climate for
    a few days during the winter, having the mixed liquid eliminated
    the possibility of frozen pipes if I turn off the heater.  Plus,
    with all the anti corrosion stuff, the crusty build up one usually
    sees in a domestic(faucet)HW system goes away cause I'm dealing
    with a closed loop system and not adding new, mineral rich hard
    water.
    
    
    
    Have any of you ever entertained such a scheme? Financially, I think
    it'll be relatively cheap, Simple to install, and outsdie of playing
    with the subpanel, can avoid fiddling around with (and probably
    screwing up) the existing honeywell, relays, zones, etc.
    The big $$$ hit is the initial warm up of the tank.  Heat retention,
    both while idle and also running should assisit in a slow temperature
    drop=lower operating costs.
    Does anybody know if the antifreeze mix can screw up any of the
    proposed components (circulator, tank)?
    
    Please feel free to rattle my cage and tell me if you think it's
    a smart/grossly dumb idea.
    

    RE. 11
    
    Maybe just install a length of electric baseboard heat?
    
    Mike

	Intuitively, I think it would function, but it would be inefficient.

	I gather you seek the advantage of the steadier heat flow derived
	from the continuing flow of water, as opposed to the cycling
	temperature accompanying cycling electric heaters.  It would cost
	just as much for fuel, even if the heater cycles infrequently: a
	watt is a watt, and costs what it costs, no matter how you schedule
	it, neglecting off-peak stuff.

	The water system would suffer losses not suffered by heaters in the
	room, from pipes and the tank.  Also, you would have to buy energy
	to push the water around (which I suppose converts to heat
	eventually).

	And you have the capital expenditure, for buying the heater,
	plumbing, wiring, and baseboards -- which represents lost
	investment opportunity which you would have to recover by
	selling your scheme to whoever buys your house.

	How about oil-filled electric heaters?  I've never used them,
	but aren't they designed for steadier heat?

	Or you could use a wood-fired water heater, and heat the water
	with your junk mail, pseudo-free!

	If you'd planned ahead, you would have installed a massive trombe
	wall, supplemented by a 20,000-gallon subterranean cistern, and
	exploited solar heat.

	Regards, Robert.

	PS  If you can exploit off-peak rates, you might approach
	    reasonable economy.  Figure out how many watt-hours you
	    need, and you'll have your fuel cost.

            I can't think of a better notes files to put this in.  This is
    in the realm of "do it yourself".  Any pointers to other information
    sources would be fine, so here goes:
    
    My mother went through a patent attorney to apply for a patent.  It was
    expensive and took many applications.  I'd like to apply for a patent
    but of course I don't want to spend any money.  Does anyone out there
    have some knowledge about do it yourself applications for patents?

    
    If you want an overview to the process, Digital publishes
    a book, part number EF-A1274-50, that describes how we do it.
    (Digital Guide to the Patent Process).  You should be able to
    get a reference copy from Digital Library services.
    
    I've seen "inventors kits" advertised in various magazines such
    as PoP. Sci.  (And also heard a few anecdotal horror stories about
    how ideas can be ripped off by unscrupulous patent services....)
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
     
                                

    
    I believe the Better Business Bureau supplies informtion on patenting.
    The packet will includes three addresses to send for more information.
    
    One of the contacts will send you a certificate that will allow you
    a 'first' conference with a lawyer in your area to discuss your 
    invention.  (They supply the lawyers name)  If I remember correctly,
    this particular one cost ~$12.
    
    I still have some of the info at home but have no idea where right now.
    

    I called my local BBB and they referred me to the "Patent and Trade
    Office".  The phone number is 703-557-4636.  They have some interesting
    voice mail trees that you can go through.  They will also send a free
    booklet.
    
        Another booklet can be ordered through:
        Superintendent of Documents
        US Government Printing Office
        Washington DC 20402
    
    The book is "General Information Concerning Patents" # 00300400670-6
    with a cost of $2.25.  The booklet is also available if you call:
    202-512-1800.
    
    They do not suggest patent application from layman (as if you'd expect
    them to encourage it).  I bet you could find some really hillareous
    stuff that gets sent in.
    
    nelson
    
     

You may well have covered this step already, but I'll recount it 
for the record.

The cheapest patent search that an individual can run is to go 
to the home center (or plumbing supply house, or stationery store, or
whatever store covers the field your "invention" would be for) 
and say "I need something to do <whatever>."
You will almost always get the answer that what you intended to propose
already exists, or there is something close enough that you'd have a hard time
getting the patent on what you want to do.
If not, then you have narrowed the search of "prior art" that you can 
direct a patent attorney to perform ($$$$) for you.

- tom]

    
    
    I have have no experience in this area, but if it costs a lot of money
    and time to go through the patent process - most likely for naught,
    could you take your idea to the appropriate mfg. and sell the idea plus
    some amount of money or percentage.  Say, for example, you have an idea
    for a terrific pet toy, could you approach PETS 'R US mfg. with your
    idea, or would you most likely be ripped off if your idea had merit?
    That is, you are taking a chance without a patent, and you have no
    protection.  
    
    Eleanor

    From experience, contact the company first before sending the idea.
    They do not want to become involved in any potential intellectual theft
    cases if their own developers have a similar idea (or claim to). Often,
    they'll return your letter without comment or review.
    
    However, if you request, they may have a release form for you to
    complete prior to idea submission.
    
    Some companies just won't accept submissions from John Q. Public.

    I understand that Arthur D. Little, the consulting company in
    Cambridge, MA, has a patent "service". You bring them the idea, and
    depending on how much development you've done, they'll take it the rest
    of the way. How you split the money is a function of who does how much
    work. I suspect they get lots, particularly if you only start with the
    idea. As I understand it, they can take it all the way through to
    production, but don't rely on my understanding. They may also take the
    patent and pay you a royalty -- don't recall what I heard....