Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    Oh well, seems the note about paint brush cleaning got lost in the
    shuffle.  
    
    So, now that I have my paint brush hanging over my radial arm saw
    into a coffee can 1/3 full of paint thinner, what next?  Is it safe
    to assume that the paint, being heavier than the thinner will dislodge
    from the brush and fall to the bottom of the can, and that in a
    day or two it will be completely clean?
    
    					waiting for a cleaner brush
    			                              
    						.dave.

    
    does anybody paint anymore?
    
    						.dave.

	Hi Dave,
	 I had not replied earlier because I always use Latex paint
	and just run the brush/roller under the faucet. On the rare
	occasion when I use oil based paint, I just dab the brush
	in dirty thinner and then hang it in clean thinner with the
	bristles not touching the bottom of the can.

	-Tom

I don't know why you would leave it hanging in a can. I am one of the world's
sloppiest painters. The paint is usually 3/4 of the way up the handle. The way
I usually get my paint brushes clean is to partially fill a can with paint
thinner/remover/brush cleaner and swirl it around until you get most of the 
heavy stuff off. Then properly dispose of that solution and get some more until
the solution doesn't become as cloudy with paint. Then wipe you brush with a 
clean cloth and then find something you don't mind staining with diluted paint
and briskly stroke the brush 10-15 times to throw off the rest of the solution.
That is usually the cause for making a stiff paint brush.

I would think that just letting the brush sit in thinner would just loosen
the bristles.


						Robert

    
    Well I took the engineering approach - I tried it.
    
    I cleaned the brush as .4 mentioned, then hung it back into the can
    filled enough to be just below the metal of the brush.  Two days later
    I took the brush out and shook it over some newspaper.  The bottom of
    the can was full of muck. 
                                                          
    Last night when I checked the brush it was clean as new and very soft.
    Mind you this was after putting polyeurethane on a refinished desk and
    rocker.  I used the brush three times before using this method, this
    time it is much much cleaner than all the other times. 
    
    						.dave.
    
    

    I generally slosh the brush in a small (1/2" deep) amount of thinner,
    throw that away, and repeat one or more times unil the thinner doesn't
    get too dirty when I do it.  Then I wash the brush with soap and
    water (Ivory bar soap seems to work quite well, for some reason),
    shake out the water, and let it dry.  Takes maybe 10-15 minutes
    at most - no worse than latex, except for the problem of disposing
    of the old paint thinner.
    
    Steve

    
    
    Here is the way I was taught to clean dirty paint brushes used with
    oil base paints.
    
    	A. If the brush is going to be used again shortly, leave the
    brush sit in paint thinner or turps. Turpentine will out last paint
    thinner ten to one. Ive let brushes sit two months in turpentine.
    Keep the bristle off the bottom so they will retain their shape.
    
    	B. If you are through painting for a long period and want to
    put the brush away, clean it out throughly in paint thinner, then
    wash it out under warm water, with a soap powder such as tide, working
    the soap powder up into the bristles and then rinsing out until
    the water runs clear. Shape the bristles with your hands and wrap
    in paper to store.
    
    	C. If there is a lot of paint up high on the brush near the
    metal ferrule, clean it out with a wire brush, brushing toward the
    brisle tips. If the brush is filled with paint and turned hard,
    soak it in Sterling brush cleaner for a few days to soften, then
    brush out all the softened paint you can with the wire brush and clean
    out as described above.
    
    	D. A note to one of the previous writers, you should ALWAYS
    use an oil base primer on new wood, even if you are going to use
    latex on the final coats. Better check with your paint store. Another
    thing, latex semi-gloss paints must be primed between coats. I found
    out about this the hard way. No paint manufacturer will guarantee
    its latex semi-gloss to stick to semi-gloss without a latex primer
    between coats.
    
    
                                          Regards,  

    Re: Disposing of dirty paint thinner.
    
    I have found that if I allow the paint laden thinner to stand several
    days in the jar the paint solids settle to the bottom.  I then pour
    the relatively clear thinner on the top into a jar/can for storage
    and use it the next time I have a brush to clean.  If allowed to
    dry the original paint solids will usually shrivel up and can be
    removed from the jar and thrown away.  I get quite a lot of mileage
    from the paint thinner this way and reduce considerably the disposal
    problem.
    
    Marty
    

I've got a basement problem that I suspect is not like many others.  The floor
is constant dusty!  After talking to a lot of people about it, the general
consensus is that the concrete was poured in the winter and froze.  The result
is that it never cured properly.  But what to do about it?  I talked with a
bunch of cement contractors and got pointed to Ideal Block who sold me some
"special" sealer for about $20/gal.  I put 2 coats on the floor and things
seemed to work quite well, for a while. 

Now, 6 months later the concrete dust is back again.  I had also talked to the
"house doctor" (the guy in the Boston Globe) and he pointed me at someone who
had yet a "more specialize" product.  It cost about twice as much but then I
found out it would only work on unsealed concrete and that I essentially shot
myself in the foot by putting down the wrong stuff!

My current options are:

	o	do nothing

	o	try a heavy concrete paint which will no dount peal, but just
		keep repainting every n-years, months, etc...

	o	cover it with a rug

Since my shop is also in the cellar, option 3 will only solve part of the 
problem and therefore I plan to do nothing.  However, that was before I 
discovered this NOTES file...

-mark

    
    I know this doesn't help you, but in case anyone else is having a floor
    poured, there's an additive that they put in when it's poured to keep
    it from creating dust (not sure if this is the same stuff they use
    for winter pouring).

Ahhh...

But one of the probably causes of my floor freezing is that if you put in too
much of the stuff (I think it calcium carbonate, but i'm not sure) it can be 
just as bad as not putting in any.  Apparently, some concrete people are under
the myth (or want to impress their customers) of just putting in a lot and by
the time problems develop, they have a new address!

-mark

    How damp is the floor, if at all?  If it's really dry, you might
    think about putting down linoleum, although the adhesive might not
    hold too well...it's hard to fix something that keeps disintegrating!
    
    How about a plastic vapor barrier topped by plywood held down by
    power-driven studs, topped by linoleum?  If the concrete has as
    much tendancy to dust off as your note seems to suggest, I suspect
    that the only permanent cure will be to cover it with something.
    
    Steve

  I talked with my neighbor Mark, who's in the business.  Steve's right; the
  only permanent cure is to cover it with something.  

  Mark says that all concrete powders and that even a good pour can cause
  problems in sensitive environments.  Lots of things can cause concrete
  to powder badly.  The concrete might have been frozen, or it might have
  been over-finished, or it might have been a bad mix.  

  There are some silicone products that will stop the powdering for a year
  or two, but you have to reapply it.  Another alternatives is refinishing
  the concrete with a skim coat -- this is either fussy work if you do it
  yourself or expensive work if you find a subcontractor.

  Your best bet is to cover the floor with vinyl composition tyle but
  you can do this only if the floor is quite smooth (the VCT will make
  any imperfections in the floor a lot more visible). 

  If you decide to put down VCT and have to smooth the floor, you've got
  two options: 1) the carborundum brick or 2) a concrete coating product
  (I've used one called Levelastic).  I've used option 1 on concrete that
  had been rained on -- it's as painful as it sounds.  However, if your
  concrete is that powdery, maybe it will be easier to "sand" with the
  carborundum brick.

  Hope this helps,

  JP

Good input...

I kind of thought I'd have to cover it with something and .3 sounds the most
promising.  I thought of a skim coat was was told that there's not a lot of 
likely it would "stick".  I had even talked to a contractor who suggested a 
2-3 inch "skim" coat.  That sounded better, but it would have cost a lot and
raised my floor!

Short term, I think I'll leave it as is, but when I'm ready I think I'll go
with the plywood and covering.  Actually, it would be interesting to just put
down plywood.  Then if I need to hold some work in place, I could just nail it
to the floor, kind of like a big workbench!

-mark

    As far as putting down plywood, I would be skeptical of putting
    it right on the concrete.
    
    When I finished off my basement last year, I placed pressure treated
    2X4's flat (4" side on the concrete) on the concrete and power nailed
    them down, I placed rigid insulation between the 2X4's and then
    covered it all with a vapor barier.  Then I covered it all with
    3/4" plywood screwed in with thousands of drywall screws.  That
    floor is warm, dry and is not going anywhere.
    
    I have it covered with very thick wall-wall carpeting and it makes
    a nice playroom for the kids.
    
    Jim Pappas

I had a similar problem (maybe even worse) that I think I have solved.

I had a concrete skim coat (1/8 to 1/4 thick) improperly mixed and
applied to my cellar floor and had a very bad problem with dust. The
skim coat was actually falling apart from normal traffic, even
sweeping with a broom was destroying the surface. Why I never sued the
guy I'll never know, I probably consider it my punishment for NOT
ASKING FOR AND CHECKING HIS REFERENCES. 

Any way I solved the problem (for over a year now) with two coats of
"Chex_Wear" Epoxy_Enamel paint made by Benjamin Moore. Spag's sells
it, at about 16-17 bucks a gallon and I used 10 gallons for a 24X44
foot floor. Expensive, but well worth it. I thinned the first coat
heavily (I forget exactly but it might have been a quart of thinner to
a gallon of paint) to get it to soak in and "bind" what was left of
the skim coat together. The second coat was applied straight out of
the can. 

I still can't believe it but it has completely sealed the floor and
held together the surface that was breaking up. Even in high traffic
areas! Its been 15 months NOW and there is not a sign of wear. 

To find out how I got into that mess and a lesson on checking
references, please read on. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------- 

When my floor was originally poured, the guy that finished wasn't
qualified to make mud pies let alone float a concrete floor. After he
played with the Darby machine long enough to dig up the concrete and
spray it against the walls, he decided to float it with a hand trowel.
That didn't look real good (trowel marks and all) so he gave it a
broom finish (dragged a push-broom across the surface) to hide the
trowel marks. That resulted in a very ruff cellar floor that looked
similar to a side walk but much worst. 

Well I expressed my dis-satisfaction with the results and insisted he
fix it. He offered to pour a new floor (another 3"-4") but after what
I had seen so far all I could imagine was a cellar with 5 feet of head
room and 3 feet of concrete by the time he would get it right. He
finally came back (and I allowed him to (what a mistake!!!)) and put
down a skim-coat that he mix up in the cellar. First he spread around
some dry cement, then he spread around some sand, then he mixed it up
by brushing it with a broom, then he wet it down with buckets of water
and mixed it again with a broom. Then he used the Darby machine to
finish it. 

Well it didn't look too bad when he was done (considering what it
looked like before he started) but it didn't last long! A few places
never really stuck and would flack off in 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick pieces.
The real problem was the dust. Sweeping the floor would yield several
pounds of sand and cement plus a cloud of dust in the cellar for
several days. The dust would float up thru the rest of the house and
make more of a mess. The skim coat was never really mixed properly and
was never really concrete. Technically it was cement and sand stuck
together and just waiting to be set free.


Morale of the story: ASK FOR REFERENCES AND THEN FOLLOW UP WITH THEM!

great tip...

The only things that scares me is having put down 11 gallons of my stuff at
over $20 a gallon (so you're not alone in expenses) is that I may have prevented
future stuff from getting in and properly bonding.  I guess next time I go to
spags (which is fairly frequent) I'll check out the manufacter of Chex Wear
and ask if it'll cover what I put down.

-mark

    Brushes that are going to be used again can be stored in water.
    I have used oil based paint and stored the brush in water for 2-3
    months to be used again. You just wipe off the water and paint.
    The brush will be as fresh as when your stopped.
    
    For cleaning I use four jars numbered 1-4. Jar 1 is the cleanest
    and jar 4 is the dirtiest. Start by cleaning in jar 4 and work your
    way to jar 1. When jar 4 becomes unuseable dump it an pour 3 into
    4, 2 into 3 etc. and fill one with new cleaner.
    
    I hate cleaning brushes!!
    
    _Bill
     

    Our house was painted and is now peeling, blistering, alligatoring,
    and generally looks like the "this could happen to you" pictures
    in the "How to Paint" articles in the magazines.

    Since it is redwood clapboard, we had our new addition done with
    the same wood.  We think that painting redwood is silly and that
    a stain is the way to go.  We've put Cuprinol Clear on the addition,
    to preserve it, but are wondering what to do next.
    
    Things people have mentioned are:
    
    	1) Paint the whole thing
    	2) Paint the main body and find a matching stain for the addition
    	3) Scrape the main body to bare wood and stain the whole thing
    	4) Cover the paint with some kind of magic stain
    
    Any suggestions or opinions?
    
    -joet

Although they say paint offers the best protection you don't need it/want it
for two reasons.

1) Redwood is one of the best woods for natural protection from the elements.
Adding paint over it is unnecessary and detracts from the natural beauty
of the wood.  

2) As you have discovered, painting any surface can eventually lead to
problems of maintenance because of improper application or ventilation or
.... etc. etc. etc.

I vote that you make the effort to remove the paint down to the wood and
then stain (if you wish) the whole house the same color.  The biggest
advantage of stain is that as it deteriorates with age it fades.  It
doesn't form a layer on top so it does not crack, peel, blister and all
the wonderful things paint does when it goes south.  If you like the color
of redwood you could simply put the transparent preservative on it and retain
the natural color of the wood.  I really like natural wood and if I had
a choice it would be white cedar with a transparent preservative.  I know
removing the paint will be a big pain, but look at it this way.  If you
repaint you'll have to prepare the wood anyway and it is unclear that you'll
avoid the problems you are having now the next time it comes to paint.

So, my vote is bite the bullet now and avoid problems when you get older
and can't move around as well   :^).   Of course if you plan to move then
all bets are off.

-peter

    
    I'm facing the same paint vs. stain predicament.  However, my house
    is sided with red cedar shingles, and has been painted with latex-based
    paints.
    
    Questions:  How would I remove 4 or 5 layers of paint without getting
    old before finishing?  I know about sandblasting, but how expensive
    is this, and does it damage the surrounding things? (windows doors,
    plants, etc..)  Also how does a heat gun work?
    
    And lastly, if I did get it down to bare wood, at this point, would
    I be better going with a latex-or and an oil-based preservative.
    Ideally I'd like to do the wood so it keeps the color of new red
    cedar shingles, I don't like the grey "weathered look".
    
    Any and all ideas greatly appreciated!
   

One warning about red cedar shingles.  Red cedar has pigment in the wood
that tends to leach to the surface.  If the wood is covered with something
which is transparent to allow the color of the wood to shine through
you will be visited by the red piment coming to the surface.  It blotches
and stains the wood in such a way as to make it look terrible.  For
red cedar I would go with something which has color and can cover the
wood.  This adivce comes from a very painful experience with the home
I am now in.

Elsehwere in this conference there is talk about taking paint etc down
to bare wood.

For natural wood beauty white cedar is much better.  It does not leach ugly
pigment and if it is preserved properly you can maintain the nice wood
color without getting the ugly graying which occurs with unprotected cedar.

-peter

    Have you considered removing the old clap boards, removing the paint
    from the butt edge and re-installing them with the back out?
    
    Sandblasting will work, but I understand a lot of towns won't allow
    it because of pollution!
    
    -Mike-
    

    re: .4

    Are clapboards smooth on both sides?
    
    -joet

    I JUST PURCHASED A HOME THAT WAS RECENTLY RESHINGLED WITH WHITE
    CEDAR SHINGLES. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT REMAIN THIS NATURAL WOOD
    COLOR WITHOUT WEATHERING TO GREY. HAS ANYONE BEEN SUCCESFUL WITH
    A CLEAR PRESERVATIVE THAT HOLDS UP WELL. CUPRINOL AND SOME OTHERS
    SEEM TO HAVE MORE WATER AS A BASE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. IF ANYONE
    HAS SEEN A HOME THAT HAS BEEN TREATED THIS WAY I WOULD LIKE TO TALK
    WITH THE OWNERS.
    
    DAVE
    

We used a product called CWF (Clear Wood Finish) on our redwood siding.  It's 
only been a year, so I can't say a whole lot about it yet.  It tends to bring 
out a yellow tone to the wood.  On the Redwood, it looks very nice.

Paul

    	I am in the process of buying another house that has painted
    and badly peeling clapboards. Initialy I thought the paint was
    peeling due to neglect, then I had an inspector come and look at
    the house. The first words out of his mouth were " this house
    has a forced hot air heating system with a humidifier attached
    to it", I thought this guy was psychic because he had only been
    there about 30 seconds. Well it turns out thst this condition
    isn't uncommon for a house with painted clapboards. It seems
    that paint doesn't adhere well to clapboards. One of the major
    reasons is moisture on the inside of a house. It tries to get
    out through the siding and gets trapped between the paint and
    wood, causing it to blister and peel. The amount of time it
    takes is probably proportional to the amount of moister in
    the house. I saw first hand what this can do on a friend of
    mines house that was painted 2 years ago. While visiting
    one day I noticed that one side of his house had a lot of
    blisterd and peeling paint on it. Knowing he had had the 
    house painted only 2 years ago I asked what was causing it.
    I was told to take a stick and pock one of the blisters and
    when I did about a half a cup of water came pouring out, I
    couldn't beleive it.
    	After learning all of this I have looked into the possibility
    of having the house sand blasted. The cost for having all the
    siding excluding the trim sand blasted was between $3,600.00 and
    $4,200.00. Add to that the cost of the stain and the cost of labor
    if you have some one else do it and you can get a good idea of the
    cost. I am comparing this to the cost of having someone else scape,
    prepare and paint my house. This will cost me about $2,000.00 plus
    the cost of the paint. Painting might seem the cheaper way to go
    except for the fact that I might have to do this again in a couple
    of years, then maybe in a couple of years after that and sand blasting
    and stainig starts to look pretty good in the long run.
    		As far as keeping a natural non weatherd look on a house
    Im not sure this can be done for very long seeing that any stain
    will not keep the elements from fading and discoloring whatever
    siding you choose to use. Just the sun will eventualy bleech the
    wood.
    		I wish us both luck we will need it.
    
    						Mike O'Brien

    Re: .5
    Clapboards are (generally) real smooth on one side, semi-smooth
    on the other side but still smooth enough to be the "outside."
    In fact, the semi-smooth side is probably better for holding paint.
    The real smooth side might be better for stain.
    
    Steve

    I don't think so.  The rough side holds stain better too.  If you
    stain the smooth side it won't seep in as much.  You'll use more
    stain staining the rough side.
    

    I would recommend using stain over paint everytime.  It goes on
    easier and penitrates the wood.  Make sure it is an oil base product.
    I have white cedar clapboards on my house, rough side out.  I would 
    recommend that combination highly.  You can by clapboards rough or
    smooth, 3 1/2 or 5 1/2 to the weather, meaning that the clapboards are 
    4" and 6".
    
    I've used Cuprinol wood preservative (clear) the first two years
    we were in our house.  Then I switched to a semi-transparent stain
    natural cedar color because some of the siding was slioghtly 
    different shades making the house appear to have stripes.  The
    Semi-Trans Stain I used was Olympic.....now I have Mildew on some areas!
    I live in a heavily wooded area and am assuming that the moisture
    and lack of sun produce mildew!  Any hints?
    
    I have given some opinions, but would now like to ask, what semi-
    transparent would people recommend?  I would still like a natural
    color.  I don't think that Olympic has a fungus repellent, it sure
    seems that it hasn't done a good job of protecting from mildew?
    I understand that a 70% water, 30% Bleach combo is good for getting
    rid of the mildew.....any recipes would be welcome, as any suggestions
    for a favorite semi-transparent stain!  I would appreciate the input!
    
    Thanks.....ROB

    re .11
    
    When you buy the stain, ask for some mildew preventative additive.
    Mix this stuff in well with the stain.  Professional painters use
    this stuff if requested (or if they are good painters).
    
    -al

    
    	I rarely clean my painting utensils.  The only things I'll
    	clean are brushes with latex paint.  10 minutes max.  I buy
    	cheap rollers and throw them away when I'm done.  If I'm
    	going to be painting the same color tomorrow, then I'll store
    	it in a plastic bag.  The half hour-plus that it takes to clean
    	latex paint from a roller, oils or varnish from a brush or
    	(heaven forbid) oils from a roller, just does not justify itself
    	when you consider what it takes to buy a new one.  I always
    	use a quality brush for varnish, and I'll still toss it when
    	I'm done.  Consider, too, the cost of thinners, etc. besides
    	your own valuable time.  And when it is time to clean the brush,
    	you have just completed the project, and are probably quite
    	tired, and maybe even frustrated or mentally fatigued.  All
    	that fuss!  Just for a couple of bucks worth of brush that 
    	will never really be perfectly clean anyway.
    
    	To be successful you've got to work smarter, not harder!
    
    	Joe O.

    RE: .11
    
    Look into a soap called "TSP" It is supposed to be used to remove
    mildew. Should be found in any hardware store.
    
    -MIKE-
    

When we put down our floor we asked a couple of flooring contractors what they 
used, and the best reccommendation we had was for Zip-Guard.  We've only had it 
down for 6 months, so I can't tell you how it wears.

Paul

    	I have also heard that ZIP GUARD is very good. Although ZIP
    GUARD is a urethane which is slightly different than a polyurethane.
    	I would definatly not use LIQUID PLASTIC I have seen this stuff
    and it is GROSS!!!!. It comes in two parts wich you mix and flow
    on a surface whan it dries you have a finish thats about 1/16" thick
    and looks like you could ice skate on it. I have also seen a damaged
    LIQUID PLASTIC finish and I can't imagine trying to repair it. It
    can have cracks that look like cracked glass or gouges taken out
    these gouges look like 1/16" pits that go right down to the wood.
    If I could compare LIQUID PLASTIC to somthing it would be like
    laying a piece of LEXAN or PLEXIGLASS over your floor.
    

    
    We've had good luck with FABULON, which also dries fairly quickly.
    However, if you'r{ concerned about scratching, DON'T USE HIGH GLOSS!
    Although it is no softer than the satin, every little mark stand
    out. The guy who built our current house used high-gloss despite
    our request for satin.
    
    Also, we've had good luck restoring a like-new finish to the glossy
    polyurethane with an acrylic {ood floor polish made by Bruce.
    

    Have also used Zip Guard with excellant results - satin finish.
    It has been down for about 18 months on hard wood floors, doors,
    and cabinets. Seems to be standing up very well.   - john

    Our Fabulon coated floor is wearing well (only 12 months so far).

    How much for a gallon?  What is the coverage/gallon?

    I recommend the gym-seal.  I did one floor of my house with
    Minwax gloss polyurethane and one floor with Gym-seal.  There's
    really no comparison.  The Gym seal holds up much better.
    Each has 2 or 3 coats (I can't remember).  When I bought the
    Gym seal at Maki, the salesmen commented to me at the counter
    that he thought I was smart using the good stuff for a floor
    rather than polyurethane.  
    Spags sells Gym-seal.  
    

    I have just purchased a new home and have the choice of
    exterior color to pick.  There are three different shingle
    types offered, cedar, fir, and pine.(I think)  Transparent
    or colored stain is offered.  I would like to go with
    a natural wood color ie. transparent stain.  Any recommendations
    on wood type and staining??  Is there another note I should
    read?? thanks.
    

    
    1. The best-looking siding depends a lot on the house style. On
       a traditional style, I think the rough texture of cedar shakes
       looks best. On a contemporary style, a smooth texture usually
       looks better.
    
    2. A transparent or clear stain is really just a wood preservative.
       it may make the wood a little darker, but basically the natural
       color (and imperfections) will show through.
    
       A semi-transparent stain colors the wood while allowing some
       of the natural color (and imperfactions) to show through. If you're
       applying over a rough siding like cedar shakes, semi-transparent
       stain almost always comes out blotchy, because of differences
       in absorbancy and texture among the shakes - I've never seen
       a really nice looking semi-transparent job on such siding. It
       has a much better chance to look good on board-type siding.

       Solid stain will put a nice-looking finish on any type of wood,
       and allows radical color changes, while offering all the benefits
       of stains (no peeling, cracking, blistering...).
    
    

Definitely opt for cedar or fir since these woods have natural immunity
to the environment.  My personal choice would be white cedar.  You
can stain with semi-transparents and get excellent results, but you must
select the right kind of wood.  White cedar will take a clear, or semi-
transparent covering and look real good.  Preservatives will darken it ever so
much but the natural flavor of the wood shows through.  I have seen
several houses done in white cedar and preservatives and they look real
nice.  Be careful however, red cedar is not a candidate for anything
transparent as the wood contains red pigments which tend to bleed to
the surface.  When these come up there is nothings so gross as red
blotchy blobs clashing with the normal color.

I personally like natural wood and transparents which protect but allow
the personality of the wood to show through if the wood can take it
and not change over time.

-peter

To find what other notes to read, try dir/key=siding or dir/key=paint.

To find out what keywords are available, type sho key

To find what keywords are attached to a particular note, select the note and 
type sho note /key

To add a keyword to a note, select the note, and type add key "keyword"

Paul

Ditto to .2

Cedar is the only way to go.  

White cedar is the standard for shingles.  I think they look nice very light
or bleached, ala real cape cod houses.  It also looks nice on contemporaries.
There's a finish that accelerates that bleached look.

Red cedar is the standard for clapboards.  I think that this looks nice stained
naturally.  I've never found it to be blotchy.  

--ed/

What ever you do, stay away from pine!  It's cheaper, but does not have very
much durability and you'll pay for it in the long run.

-mark

    I have heard that if I go with say red cedar and have a transparent
    stain used, I will have to restain it in a year.  I only plan on
    living their for 3 years tops.  Should I go with a colored stain
    so that I won't need to redo it before I sell?
    

DO NOT USE TRANSPARENT STAIN WITH RED CEDAR!

Red cedar contains pigments which leach out of the wood and come to the
surface.  With transparent stain you see these ugly blotches of red
and your house looks terrible!  Go with a stain that covers to avoid this
headache.  Take it from one who knows.

-peter  

    Does this happen with shingles or clapboards or both ?
    
    I have red cedar clapboards that have been stained with natural
    cedar stain color (semi-transparent).  This is on a new house which
    was just stained last month.  There are no red splotches yet.
    Should I expect to see some?  How long does it take ?  Or does this
    happen when you try a semi-transparent stain whose color is lighter
    than the red cedar ?

    I have red cedar that I stained with Semi-transparant Cuprinol
    4 years ago and I don't have any red splotches.
    

I did a house in red cedar shakes and dipped them in wood preservative.  I
had been told (and wanted) them to discolor because I wanted that "weathered"
look.  After about 2 or 3 years, the shingles darkened the amount I wanted and
put another coat of preservative on.  Had I continued to live there, I would 
have probably done this every several years.

So... it sounds like red cedar will indeed discolor under a clear stain.

One final point is that the rate of discoloration is DIRECTLY proportional to
the amount of direct sunlight.  The more light, the more discoloration.

-mark

    
    
    	I bought LATEX STAIN to stain a new fence that I had put on
    	around the back-yard of my house.  The weather hasn't help
    	to much and I am considering waiting until the spring to do
    	this job; but I am thinking if I should store the STAIN on a
    	place other than the basement, where the temperature may drop
    	to 50, 55 degrees during the hard part of winter.  Or shouldn't
    	I worry about it at all ????
    
    
    /Ricardo.

    
    Basement is fine. The important thing is to keep it from freezing
    (i.e. don't leave it in the shed).

    I need to finish several louvered doors with polyurethane.  I know
    that it's available in spray cans, but I'm afraid I'll go bankrupt
    buying the quantity I need.
    
    I have an electric (airless) sprayer.  Has anyone ever tried spraying
    urethane this way?  Does it need to be thinned?  What do you use
    to thin urethane?  And, what solvents (in addition to or in place
    of the thinning solvent) can be used to clean the spray gun after
    use?
    
    -db
    

    I don't see any reason why you can't, even though I have never sprayed
    poly.. I would think the info on a can of the material would give
    answers to all your questions. Let us know how you make out.
    

    
    Sprayed polyurethane on a large room divider unit that I bought
    unfinished. Works great. After checking the poly viscosity as
    directed in the sprayer directions, I decided I could use a .7mm
    tip with no thinning (Minwax poly). Sprayed four light coats with
    sanding in between - no sags, no drips.
    
    Thin-X works as a cleaner (and thinner too, I suppose, though I
    haven't used it that way yet).
    
    It's a real pain, but sand the louvers to a fine, flat finish, or
    they become great, uncleanable dust collectors.

    Have sprayed several sets of louvered doors with an airless sprayer.
    Mostly didn't have to thin the poly but when I did I used thinex.
    Thinex also used to clean up the sprayer parts.  
    
    steve
    

    
    When I did my kitchen table, coffee table, kitchen chairs and rocker I
    sprayed them all.  BUT, I had to sand the rocker down gain and use
    a nice brush to get it smooth.  There was too much overspray all
    over the rocker.  
    
    I was using an automotive paint gun with little air pressure and
    little disbursment, but there was still lots of overspray.  However,
    you said you would be using an airless sprayer, perhaps this would
    work on chairs and such, but I wouldn't be too confident.  If spraying
    chairs, you might investigate in an additive that would slow down
    the drying process so that the overspray will mix in rather than
    become dust.
    
    Bottom line, yes you can spray the poly.
    
    						.dave.

I'm sure this will generate some interesting opinions.

I want to build a hutch (mentioned in an eariler note).  I've noticed 
that most are made with shiplapped backs for a very practical purpose --
the joints can move as the wood expands/contracts. 

My question is about staining the joints.  If I wait until it's all 
built, when the joints expand the bare wood will look like hell.  So, it 
sounds like I might want to do some staining before putting things 
together.  However, if I do this will the stain effect the ability of 
the glue to form a tight joint?  If not, I don't really want to stain 
parts becase then there's no way to get even coverage.

-mark

    If you are using shiplapped back, I would think the those joints would
    NOT be glued.  Otherwise how could the joints expand and contract?
    Hence, no problem with staining before hand!
    
    -Bob

    I agree with .1, if you are gluing a joint, then there will be no
    joint movement. If you're not going to glue (as in shiplap) then
    there is no problem pre-staining. I would like to make one suggestion
    though, if you plan on pre-staining the joints, do the entire board.
    That way you won't have to worry about lap marks where some stain
    may have gotten onto the face of the board. The most you would have
    to do after this is some slight touch up after the boards are all
    cut and in place.
      I also have another suggestion. It's possible to color your glue
    with powdered coloring.(available at paint supply stores) To hide
    the glue line (which doesn't take stain very well) between boards.
    Even if the glue is somewhat darker than your stain it doesn't show
    because of the thinness of the line. This is easier than it might
    sound and works great.
    
    					Kenny

    I disagree with .1 and .2 about glued joint movement. I built a
    pine kitchen table using 1x4 boards for the top, edge glued, with
    a 5/4 frame around the outside to make it look like a heavy top.
    Looked nice when it was finished. The cold weather came, the furnace
    started drying things out and the cracks appeared. In some places
    the wood simply split, in others the joinst were broken apart for
    a distance and then cracks would run off into the wood. I always
    planned to redo the table top- after several years of 'planning'
    my wife, a quiltmaker, made a nice quilted tablecloth- someday I
    may yet refinish the top.
    
    Dont ever underestimate the power of wood to expand and contract.
    I read once where some ancient civilization quarried rock by placing
    wooden wedges into the rock cracks and pouring on water. I believe
    it would work. NO glue epoxy included will hold a seam together
    when moisture or drying is trying to pull it apart-  All good cabinet
    joinery is based on designs that allow for the wood to move. The
    oldtimers knew what they were doing!
    
    Ron

    I think it makes a difference what the joint is.  With soft
    pine T&G, I think the wood would split before the joint comes apart.
    With glued shiplap, I think the joint would come apart first.
    If you just glue squared edges together, it would come apart
    even easier.
    

    The trick to making a good lamination type wood joint is to start
    with pieces of wood that are sufficiently dry. Thats why furniture
    manufactures usually have their own kilns. If your buying KD lumber
    from the local lumber yard, bringing it home and gluing it up, you'll
    get movement and splitting. If you have the time, let your wood
    dry out by stacking it in a protected dry area (most cellars are
    to damp) for a while before building furniture with it. The longer
    the better. Lumber straight from the yard is too green, even if
    they claim it's KD.
    
    
    

From reading the last few replies I think there may be a misunderstanding 
of what I'm talking about.  I'm NOT planning on gluing the joints!  I 
simply wanted to glue/nail the back onto the piece and allow the joints
to expand/contract!  It's the glue around the edges that I'm wondering
about holding.

I plan on leaving a small gap in the joints (any suggestions for width?) 
but don't know whether to stain this before or after assembly.  That's 
my real question.

-mark

     Nailing the shiplap around the edges should be fine. Stain each
    piece completely before assembling the back and you'll never have
    to worry about unstained edges showing from expansion or contraction.
    In this type of a situation (placing the boards on the back of the
    piece, which in itself is normal) glue will never hold. As soon
    as the moisture content of the wood changes (in either direction)
    the boards would pop right off. (too small a gluing area for the
    size of the board)
      In regard to the rebuff to .1 and .2, I have built many pieces
    of furniture, and have seen many pieces of furniture built (most
    normal kitchen cabinets included) with glued-up construction, and
    have NEVER seen a properly used edge joint let go. The only things
    to remember are:
    		1. Maximum 4 inch board width
    		2. Proper dryness of material
    		3. Good edge match
    		4. Reverse the grain of every other board
    		5. Proper application of glue
    		6. Proper clamping (read, enough pressure for good contact,
    			but not so much that excessive glue squeezout
    			occurs) As it's possible to squeeze out so much
    			glue that not enough is left for good gluing.
    		7. Only ordinary (yellow carpenter's) glue needed for
    			normal woodworking
    
      A properly glued panel will expand and contract as a unit as humidity
    changes. This must be allowed for in the design of the piece. It
    sounds like the table described in .3? had what amounted to a captive
    panel. One with a border attached firmly all the way around. When
    the panel tried to contract (or expand) it's edges weren't allowed
    to move, and something had to give. A 1' wide panel (or board) will
    move 1/4" or more between humid and dry conditions. Lengthwise there
    is some movement, but not nearly as great a percentage.
    
    			hope this is helpful,
    					Kenny

    re:.6 and .7
    
    Yes, stain before you put the shiplap boards on the back. At thistime
    of year, allow at least 1/16th to 3/32's expansion when applying
    the back boards, that should be enough to allow your wood to expand
    1/4-3/8th of an inch per foot next spring when the humidity starts.
    (assuming you are following .7's comment of 4" max width per board.)
    
    Assuming a varnish finish, you might want to give the edges a coat
    of shellac or thinned out varnish after staining to make them a
    little more stable. The faces will be finished and if the edges
    aren't, they might be a problem. 

Does anyone know anything about custom mixing stains (for furniture, 
not houses)?  Are there people who will do it for you at a reasonable 
price?

-mark

     If you're so inclined and you can find a stain that's already close
    to what you want, go to a paint store and for $5 you can buy yourself
    a bottle of tint. Get the tint color you need, add a little at a time
    until you get the color stain that you want. (try it on a sample of the
    same type of wood you will be staining, or on an inconspicuous part
    of the actual piece)
      I have done this many times and it has worked very well for me.
    It's a good idea to color only a small amount of the stain, in case
    you make a mistake or so you can use the rest for another shade.
      The normal tinting compounds will work in latex or oil based paint
    or stain, and after you do it a few times you'll have most of the
    common colors of tint and will never have to settle for colors that
    are 'almost' right. (you'll use VERY little of the tint because
    it's very concentrated)
    
    					Kenny

    Aubachon's (sp?) has a Woodmaster line of interior stains that they
    will mix to just about any conceivable color.

    	Mixing Stains can be a science in itself. I have done a lot
    of experimenting with stains using everything from store bought
    stains to using artists oils and anilyne dye powders. I have come
    to the conclusion that you can get very good results with some
    simple stain mixing from some store bought stains. contrary to
    popular belief Minwax stains are good stains for somthing out of
    a can and you can mix them to get a variety of colors and shades.
    The trick is knowing where your going with a certain color. For
    instance, You Like a golden oak stain but it's a little to Yellowish
    or bright for your taste so you mix in a little red Mahogeny to
    tone it down and make it a more warmer color. It helps to know a
    little about colors and how they affect each other this can be found
    in certain books on wood finishing and these books will also help
    you in applying stains. Unless your experienced in mixing and 
    applying stains it's pretty easy to ruin a piece by using special
    stains such as water based anilyne dye stains and applying it
    improperly. This is why I suggest you try playing around with some
    Minwax stains and you can be pretty sure you will get decent results.
    Buy about five small cans of stain such as dark walnut,Golden oak,
    red Mahogeny,and a couple of others that are near the colors you
    want and play around with them untill you come up with a color you
    like. Just keep track of the amounts you use of each color so you
    can duplicate it again when you find one you like. Try these stains
    on scrap wood and let them dry because they will look a little
    differant dry than wet. Mixing stains can be a lot of fun and besides
    getting the stains you want you will be learning a lot about color.
    
    						Have fun
    						Mike  

    The other day I recieved in the mail a book club offer from
    Popular Science Book Club.  They are offering to send me a
    book for $2.95 on Carpentry and Building Construction.  They
    say the book is a $50.00 value!  Then I only have to buy two
    more books within the next year. 
    
        Q.  Has anyone out there taken advantage of this offer?
        Q.  Are the two books you have to buy cost big bucks?
        Q.  Has any one heard of the book and the authors,
            John L. Feirer and Gilbert R. Hutchings?
    
    They claim you can build a house with this book!  I don't expect
    to build a house but there are a couple of books I am interested
    in getting from the club.  I just don't want to end up paying through
    the nose for them once I'm commited to the club.
    
    
    							Thanks,
    
                                                            John
     

        Q.  Has anyone out there taken advantage of this offer?
Yes, I have.
        Q.  Are the two books you have to buy cost big bucks?
I don't think so.  The ones I bought so far were in the $15 - 25 range.
I bought one on large appliance repair and one on roof designs.
        Q.  Has any one heard of the book and the authors,
            John L. Feirer and Gilbert R. Hutchings?
Not before I got the book!  It looks like a textbook that might be used, say,
in a Voc-Tech school.
    
>    They claim you can build a house with this book!

I think the book is very good...as good as any others I've seen or bought.  
You could probably build a house from it as well from any other good textbook.
What I mean is, no book is going to guarantee good construction from a bumbling
imcompetent, but it is a good working reference for the reasonably skilled.


							--Mike

      I don't have that particular book, but I can tell you that John
    Feirer knows his stuff. He has a book out "Cabinetmaking and Millwork"
    which is the  de facto  standard of the cabinetmaking trade. I have
    it and it is without a doubt the very best book written on that
    subject.
    
    					Kenny

    
    	My advice - take the offer.  We got one of those offers too,
    and figured for the price of two books we'd take the chance.  That
    was a year ago and we've started quite a library.  Like any other
    book club, you can take the offer of the month, alternates, or
    none.  The books we've chosen are primarily to have resources on
    hand and are of high quality.  Not to say they are all boring
    textbooks, one we picked was "how to make animated wood toys", you
    know, the hippo that opens/closes his mouth when you pull him across
    the floor!  All the books, including the special introductory one,
    are clear and easy to follow and cover a multitude of subjects for
    DIY'ers.  You won't be disappointed.
    
       Conni                     

    I was considering joining one of those book clubs.  Then I noticed
    a book I had seen a hundred places for $9.95 (and that I bought
    on sale for 7.95) was listed for $21.95!!!  I prefer to thumb through
    books of this type before buying them.  What's the old saying about
    judging a book by its cover?
    
    If you are looking for very good books about woodworking and
    construction, may I suggest Taunton Press (publishers of Fine
    Woodworking and Fine Homebuilding).  I have ordered several of their
    books and have been very pleased.  The prices are also reasonable.
    They have a toll-free number to order also.  The books came before
    the bill!!!
    

    My brother and I both joined the book club and are very pleased
    with the quality and simplicity of the instructions.  They are very
    detailed and helpfull.
    
    						Karl

    Not to put a damper on the good vibes people have been generating
    about this book club, but having been a book club junkie for a long
    time, I have a few thoughts.
    
    Some of the books that you wind up with are copyrighted sometime in the
    50's or 60's.  While the techniques may not change, the designs do.
    (If anyone has "Cabinetmaking and Millwork", check out the kitchen in
    the color picture section that looks like a surrealist soda fountain!
    Pink Stripes?)
    
    I've joined and dropped out of Rodale, Popular Science, Popular
    Electronics, Popular Mechanics, Science Fiction, and a host of others.
    It just seems like going to a couple of bookstores and thumbing
    through the offerings produced books that I was more satisfied with.
    
    For the basics, I'd just pay for a book I could look through before
    buying.  Other than that, a few magazine subscriptions will keep
    you more current than any books you could ever buy.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  The only book club worth it in my opinion is the Quality
    Paperback Book Club.  It has nothing to do with DIY or any technical
    information and maybe that's why it works for me.

I don't know how many other people in the world have had my experience
with the PS Book Club, but I hope there aren't too many.  While their
monthly and Alternate selections were generally good, their service
wasn't.  It seemed like every week another book was showing up at my
door without warning.  All I could figure is they kept dropping my
"Send this card back, or..." notices about their office, or I was only
on their "book and bill" mailing list.  Anyway after about 10 unwanted
books, I bought two and said GO AWAY.  At least I haven't heard from
them since.

Carl

re .11,.13:

A water-bleach mix is the "official" treatment for mildew.  Apply, let
stand a while, and rinse.  I think cans of Cuprinol have more complete
instructions.

TSP is Tri-Sodium Phosphate, a heavy-duty cleaner.  It's the active
ingredient in Spic-'N'-Span, and I believe it's much cheaper in that
form than in the hardware-store TSP box.  I don't know about its
effectiveness vs. mildew.

re sandblasting:

I highly recommend against it.  Sand is very ecumenical -- it abrades
wood just as readily as paint -- perhaps more so.  And wood does not
have a consistent hardness -- the thinner/darker sections of the grain
are harder than the wider/lighter sections between them.  Sandblasting
usually results in a gullied/textured effect that you probably will
not anticipate or appreciate.

re Cuprinol Clear:

I think the instructions on the can indicate it is for use only on
wood that will not receive a further treatment of colored stain.  But
I don't think any reason is given.  You could call the company for an
answer.  Darworth Corp., somewhere in Connecticut, as I recall.

>> Sandblasting usually results in a gullied/textured effect that you 
   probably will not anticipate or appreciate.


   For an example, just take a look at all the old wood in the Mill.

George

    re: mildew treatment-
    	cabot's recommends a mix of tsp (spic & span), bleach, and water
    in equal parts for removal of mildew.

    re:  cuprinol clear-
        from the can:   "Allow 24 hours or more before painting to avoid
    excessive drying time. If no finish is to be used apply a second
    coat within one hour of the first, or dip for 3 minutes. Not
    recommended to be overcoated with latex (water base) paint until
    thouroughly cured (6-12 months)."
    
         so i guess you'd need to use either oil base paint over the
    stuff, or maybe an oil based solid stai, such as the type used to
    overcoat  paint???

    What could I put on tong and groove pine that would seal it from
    moisture and prvent it from yellowing over the years!  This is
    an inside project.  Will a couple coats of polyurathane(sp) do
    the trick?
    The tong and groove pine is going on one wall.
    
    						John
    
    								
    

	A couple coats of poly should do just fine.  I've put up quite
	a bit of T&G pine on my walls and all I used was poly.  Two or
	three coats with a light sanding between coats should do.

	-gary

    
    
    You could use shellac or varnish, But the best way is poly.

    
        You want to get away from yellowing.... LAY SOME CARPET ! !
    EITHER THAT, STAIN THE STUFF.....DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU EVERTHING....!

    re .3:
    
    Yeah, the carpet would be a nice touch on the wall...

    Don't mind him Wild Bill!  He's a moron!  God put him on earth to
    make my life miserable!
    
    					          Thanks for the tips
                       
                                                           John

John! are! you! always! very! excited! or! has! someone! replaced! the! period! 
on! your! keyboard! with! an! exclamation! point!!?!!?

Seriously, it makes it hard to read when every sentence is emphasized.  Sort of 
like writing in all caps.

Paul

    Boy Paul....your wife must be a saint!  Your a tough guy to please!
    
    FIRST YOU GIVE ME THE BUSINESS ABOUT WRITING IN UPPER CASE ALL THE
    
    TIME!!  Now this!!  I'll try to use the period more often.  
    
                        O   K   ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    
    								John

    A different approach might be to use an oil finish. One such product
    is made by the Waterlox company, and is called Waterlox Transparent.
    It does not go on or work like poly, so it might not be as prone
    to yellowing. The manufacturere recommends three coats for a satin
    finish.(I aggree) Waterlox is very easy to apply, and because it
    is very slow drying and works by sinking into the wood instead of
    building up on top, you are less prone to get drips or sags. Repair
    work is also very  easy since there is no build up and therefore
    no possibilities for deep scratches in the finish. Waterlox is
    stocked/sold at a paint store on route 27 just as you enter Natick
    propper(when I recall the name I'll post it).
    
    /Kevin

    The yellowing in called Patina and is a natural process as wood
    ages. The sand it away on a antique would be a crime.
    
    -jerry
    

    I spent several seasons 15yrs ago working in aboat yard on Cape
    Cod. When I went to work there I had been painting houses and
    apartments for several years and thought  knew how to do a good
    paint job. Then I learned from guys who had been refinishing 
    boats for longer than I was old. Heres somethings I learned
    about cleaning brushes used in oil paint or varnish work.
    
    * Paint thinner is for thinning paint not cleaning brushes. Yes
      I know it works but turps is far superior. Its more expensive
      but heres the way I learned to use it to clean the very expensive
      bristle brushes we used in the yard .
    
    * Use a paint brush spinner. This is a tool you can buy at Spags
      It works like a childs top. You push a handle on top and a
      cylinder which holds the brush spins very fast throwing all
      the turps and paint its disolved of the bristles.
    
    * Get a pan (I used the bottom of an old double boiler;almost anything
      will do) Put just enough turps in the pan to saturate the brush.
      Tip the pan pan to the side to get as much of the turps worked
      into the brush. Work it in pressing the part of the bristles close
      to the handle in the small pool of turps in the corner of the
      tipped up pan. Do this for 15 to 30 sec. until you have as much
      paint disolved in the turps as possible. Then fit the brush in
      the spinner and spin it out into an empty trash can. The Turps
      will really fly. Empty out the turps from the pan(should be only
      a tablespoon or 2) Wipe the pan out with an old rag. Put in a
      little more turps and repeat the process 2 or 3 more times until
      the turps looks clean when you wash the brush out in it.
    
      This process is much harder to explain than to do. I could show
      you much easier. It takes me 10 min and maybe 1/2 cup of turps
      to thoroughly clean a 2 or 3" brush. The spinner also works
      great for latex (nylon) brushes. It really cleans all solvent
      (turps or water) and the paint its disolved out of the brush
      leaving nothing to dry, harden and clog the brush. Definitely
      pays for itself over the years.

    Theres only one way to clean paint brushes...and I don't 
    care what you've been using it for and how long its dried up
    
    Get yourself a Paint remover...about a quart is enough ,and put
    all your brushes in , let them soak overnight, and wash them out with
    soap and water,or detergent, wrap them in a paper towel to dry them
    out, drill a hole in the handle and hang them up. They'll be like
    brand new the next time you need them. 
    
    Always buy good brushes...but take care of them
    
    I use F5F to do all my stripping and it cleans brushes like a champ.
    
    				___GM___
    

    
    a home owner is currently renovating + putting a 2-story addition
    on his house within walking distance to DEC Salem, NH plant. I had
    a chance to chat with the owner who and the wife are doing all the
    work. He showed me the " Carpentry & building construction " book
    and said that this is a very useful book for DIY house building
    & renovation. As a matter of fact, he uses it for references for
    all his projects. I went to a few book stores, including the Coop.
    So far, I found only the Wordsworth sells it for ( I think ) $45
    and they don't have it in stock. New stock may comes in mid-July.
    If you don't plan to joint the club, pass it to me. I think I should
    come out better even if I have to buy 2 more books at $25 a piece.
     

The hardware store puts your paint can in a shaking machine.  How
    long is the shaking good for before you have to get it shaken up
    again?
    

RE: .0 

>The hardware store puts your paint can in a shaking machine.  How
>    long is the shaking good for before you have to get it shaken up
>    again?
    
	I worked in a hardware store for ~4 years.  If the paint is oil base
	it will be useable with minor stirring up to a week, after that more
	stirring will be required.  If the paint is latex the conditions are
	about the same as above however you should not use the paint for at
	least a day or so since it will have a lot of air bubbles in it.

	You don't ever have to have it shaken up again, for that matter you
	don't need to have it done in the first place :-)  My recommendation
	is you get it shaken up when you buy it and either stir by hand before
	using with a stir stick or if it has been a while since it was shaken
	get an attachment for your drill that looks like a fan blade with a
	ring (impeller) at the end of a 12 or 14" long shaft to remix the
	paint, again you have to be careful with latex because of the air
	bubbles (mix it the night before).

	Another tip especially for oil base but works with others as well
	when you are done painting for the day reseal the can and turn it
	upside down to store this will prevent a "skin" from forming on the
	surface of the paint.  It really does work! ;-)

			Stirring things up ~/~  Randy

    While we're on the subject of stirring paint, always check that
    all the cans are from the same lot.  If they are not, you'll do
    well to find a larger pail and mix enough together to cover a side
    of the house.  This ensures that any irregularities in shade will
    not result in a two tone effect on the side of the house.
    
    -Bob
    

    I have metal doors that I would like to touch up or repaint, can
    this be done? what type of pait do I need to do this? If this type
    of door can be painted, won't there be brush mark? Any comments
    are appreciated...

    Rustoleum paint in spray cans works well.  There's a good selection
    of colors so you should be able to match closely, and no brush marks.
    
    If you're real fussy about exact color match, you might try your
    choice of paint in a spray gun.  The exterior side of my metal doors
    were sprayed with an oil-based solid stain, same as the siding.
    I'm still not sure what to expect for the long term, but after 6
    months, there's no change in appearance.  I almost forgot, the inside
    was sprayed with the same cheap paint used on the walls, and is
    holding up well also.

    The interior side of my steel door is flat, so I rolled it on just
    as I did the walls.  It looks great!  For the outside, which has
    ridges and valleys, I am planning to use a pad to eliminate the
    brush marks.
    
    This is with latex over latex.
    
    Elaine

    I have the Stanley insulated metal doors (front & back) in my house.
    The directions say to paint them within a few months...its been
    5 years looking at the primer grey doors. But I did buy the paint!
    I chose enamal from an auto paint store which I intend to spray
    on. Hopefully this month. All my neighbors have the same type of
    door. Some have never painted. Others have brushed on Latex paint.
    Looks lousy! And the dirt seems to works right into the paint as
    time goes on. Its a job setting up to spray properly but I'm expecting
    a much better finish than brushing on any type of paint.

     MArk   

    All of the doors in my condo development are painted with Pittsburg
    Paint enamel.  They look very nice.  I'm going to be repainting
    ours soon, and need to know how to proceed.  Can anyone advise me?
     I will not be using spray.  Thanks!
    
    

I've used Rustoleum on exterior steel on my house, and I'm pleased
with it. It levels pretty well, so if you're careful you won't have too
much in the way of brush marks. It also dries to a nice hard gloss
surface that does not attract dirt.

    If the door is outside [not an apartment hallway], and the paint
    is pealing, you need to paint a base paint onto the exposed metal
    or the whole door.
    
    I repainted a metal shed and prepared the shed with a base coat
    that was special to Aluminium siding. It set up a bond so that I
    could use the oil based enamel on the Aluminium.
    
    This was done at the recommendation of the person at the Standard
    Brands paint store.
    
    /cal 

    What's the difference between Turpentine, Paint Thinner, and Mineral
    Spririts?  What things are the Turps and Mineral spirits used for
    other than cleaning paint brushes?

    Turpentine is distilled from the sap of some kind of pine tree.
    Paint thinner is usually equivalent to mineral spirits these 
    days, I believe, and is some petroleum derivative.

    
    	There are several schools of thought here.
    
    	Turpentine is for the purists and is used for thinning
    	oil based paints...but it smells. It is however, my favorite.
    
    	Paint thinner has 2 types. One is odorless. It is used for the
    	same purposes as turpentine. Its cheaper and doesnt smell as
    	bad
    
    	I never use turps for cleaning brushes. If the paint is fresh
    	I'll use thinner or gasoline. If the paint has hardened be it
    	oil base or latex based...use a paint remover like 5F5...they'll
    	look like new after a soaking...both bristle and nylon.
    
    				___GM___

    Has anyone ever used MINWAX polyurethane on their floors?  The reason
    I ask is that Spag's has this for $12.99 gal.! (usually $16.99)
    Is it half as good as the others?  Is all polyurethane created equal?
    
    Phil
    

>  Has anyone ever used MINWAX polyurethane on their floors?
    
    I have.  Gloss.  It's not terrible, but it's not holding up
    as well as either Zip Guard or Gym Seal.  
    I wouldn't use it for high traffic areas.  
    

    What is "sanding sealer"? Should I use it before staining clear
    pine? Why? How does it work?

  Sanding sealer (or sander sealer) is clear, quick-drying goop that seals
  the wood and is easily sanded for the next coat.  You should stain *before*
  using it.  I think there are many brands of this stuff -- I've been using
  the Benjamin Moore variety.

  You can use it to do a complete finish (three coats and sand lightly
  with 220 grit paper between coats).  Contractors love this stuff because
  it dries enough to sand in just a few hours -- thus they are more likely
  to complete the job in a day.  However, the reason it dries so quickly
  is because it doesn't contain much in the way of solids. 

  A better approach is to use sander/sealer for the first coat (after
  stain, that is) and then to use a real varnish for the final coat or
  coats.  Varnish has more solids and thus deposits more stuff on the
  work, which results in a harder finish.  They usually recommend that
  you wait 24 hours between coats, though.

  JP

    FWIW: The kitchen cabinet company "Penny Pincher" recommends that you
    finish cabinets by first staining, then 1 coat sanding sealer, then
    2 coats polyurethane.  I did mine this way and they came out good.
    Sanding sealer plus urethane makes a very smooth finish.
    

    A room's walls are painted off-white.  I don't know what brand
    of paint was used.  I want to paint over some spots that are
    chipped or stained.  How do I
    avoid having to repaint the whole room just to cover up some spots.
    If the color does not match extremely closely, the newly painted-
    over spot will stand out.  Would spray paint be the best choice, to
    make a gentle gradation of color between the original color and itself?

    
    Personal experience: even if you know the brand and color, even
    if you work from the same can as the original, if the wall was painted
    more that a year ago the touched-up spot will look different. The
    difference will be more obvious if you do not use the same application
    technique (eg, brushing the touch-up over rolled-on original).
    
    Suggestion: If you can match the color *very* closely, try just
    doing the wall with the problem. Be neat at the corners. The normal
    lighting differences between adjacent walls might cloak any color
    difference.

    I am seeking information on Martin Senour Indoor House Paint. Any
    comments pro or con is welcomed.

    Never heard of the stuff!  Who sells it and where?  Maybe its made
    by a paint company for this Martin Senour guy.  I don't recall this
    name being in the list of paints tested by Consumer Reports but
    you could try checking that review as a start.
    
    Phil

    I think it's "Martin Seymour", isn't it?   I remember it being one
    of the popular brands in the western US...

While I haven't had experience with Martin Senour house paints, I have 
used their automobile finishes. I got my supplies from Valley Auto in 
Nashua NH (a NAPA dealer), so maybe if you can't get to first base with 
us, try asking them who they are supplied by. I suppose also that any 
reputable auto paint/bodyshop supplier has heard of them...

Anyway, I was pleased with the results...of course, you won't want to 
paint your house with auto finish...but then again...it SURE holds up!


Chris

    I joined the book club,and got that book at the introductory offer.
    I would say that it is worth it,it's got every aspect of building
    covered,and it begins with job opportunities in the building trades.
    
    	Steve
    

    We are considering painting the backsplash in our kitchen, which
    is an almond formica.  Has anyone ever done this? If so, what type
    of paint did you use, how did it come out and did the brush strokes
    show?  Would you recommend doing it?  (i.e., would you do it again?)
    
    Thanks!
    

    I know a bit about painting because I know someone who is in the
    business.  What the person said in -1 is true, but also a bit vague.
    A good way to start out is to get a paint sample about 1 inch big
    and take it to a paint store that can tint/make up the colors of
    paint in their stores.  I suggest Townsend Paint for we have had
    very good luck with them and they will probably be able to match
    the paint.  If not a perfect match, then at least the closest possible.
    Also, if this room has not been painted since it was built, it's
    a good idea to do the whole room; you'll be surprised at what a
    difference it makes.  Most likely, whoever painted it last used
    a roller; this is the easiest and quickest way with interior work,
    but use good lighting because sometimes the paint may glob or streak;
    there is no way of getting around this, except correcting it (rolling
    over it with the roller until it is even).  If you don't correct
    the mistakes before it dries, you'll have to sand down the spots
    and do it over.
    
    Hope this helps.
    

    From what I have heard of it is a very good and very expensive paint.
    It comes in a wide variety of colors.
    
    

    I went to Brooke's Paints in Maynard last week.  They are a Ben
    Moore dealer.  In January they are renovating the store and are
    putting in a computer system that matches paint.  If you bring the
    color you want they insert it into a machine and the machine will
    generate a duplicate Ben Moore color code.
    
    I do not know if it works but they say the system is already in
    other Ben Moore stores.  Wonder if its a DEC CPU? Hope so.

    
    
    I had the same problem: wanting to cover a formica backsplash. 
    The best way to do this, as I did, is to put wallcovering over it.
    Just paint it wallcovering primer and then put your paper up the
    next day.  Use vinyl paper (without a fabric backing).
    
    If you really want to paint, you must use a primer first.  (But
    it's not going to look good because of the brush marks)
    
    - Ted

    
    
    	Hancock Paint & Wallpaper in Nashua has one of these machines.
    	Bring in a piece of painted plaster or whatever and they hold
    	it up to this little window and about a minute later you get
    	a print out of the color's breakdown. Then they punch those
    	numbers into the mixing computer and out comes a gallon of
    	perfectly matched paint. Great machine, even though it's
    	got an I*M keyboard.
    
    	Tim
    

      M. S. paint has been around for at least 30 years. It is one of
    the very best paints you can buy for interior work. It is used mostly
    by professionals and isn't advertised heavily in consumer publications,
    this is probably why you haven't heard of it. 
      If you can get it, use it! It has one of the smoothest semi-gloss
    finishes you can get anywhere.
    
    					Kenny

    Thanks for the information. If anyone is interested, you can buy
    this paint at The Color Shop in Sudbury.
    

    re .5
    
    All the professionals I met in my building days used Benjamin Moore
    paint.  In fact many architects spell it out by brand name in the
    specs.
    
    If M.S. a hidden secret?
    

    The ones we dealt with offered choices other than BM.  There are
    several new brands on the market in the past years.  I know you
    are thinking, well name them, try as I may, I cannot remember them
    all, but MS was one.  We used another however, (not BM either).
    I'll look at home.
    

    Re .3
    
    A couple of years ago I decided to try the Benjamin Moore computer
    matching since I wanted to match exactly the color formica we were
    installing in our new kitchen.  The process was interesting - they
    claim they can match anything from a small sample of paint - but
    expensive.  The price depended upon how much pigment was needed
    to match the color...I paid somewhere in the vicinity of $30.00
    for one gallon (at that point I was numb anyway...when you're 
    spending thousands whats $30 here and there :^)  The system they
    used was DEC (either a Rainbow or a Pro).  Naturally after having
    the paint mixed I found a ready-made color that was almost 
    identical.  I wonder if they're not programmed to use the maximum
    amount of pigment though - for a muted red color paint they started
    with a hot pink base and added so much pigment the can overflowed.
    
    Although it's expensive it could certainly be worth it in some
    cases - such as needing 1 more gallon of paint to finish the house,
    etc. 
    
    Evelyn

    RE. 5
    
    	I just had the Benny Moore Rainbow do a color match for
    the (ugly) color of my house.  The process was quick and the price
    was the same as if I had any custom color made, $18.  
    	I got to talking with the owner about the system and it seems
    that it was REAL expensive when it first came out about $65,000.
    The key is the camera that runs about $40,000.  
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(then again I'm fairly color blind so I let my wife handle these
    	 things)

    
    Here's another painting problem.
    
    I painted the ceiling in a bedroom last weekend.  The next day,
    I go in there and find that the Lucite latex ceiling paint I used
    is PEELING OFF, taking with it the layer of paint just underneath
    it!  This was only happening in certain sections of the ceiling,
    not all over.
    
    Underneath these 2 layers of white paint is a yellowish colored
    surface.
    
    My only conclusion is that the yellowish paint is old OIL BASE paint,
    and latex won't adhere to it...But how did the other layer of paint
    stay there then?
    
    Whats the best thing to do?  Scrape the peeling sections, spot prime,
    then recoat with latex ceiling paint?  Do I need s special type
    of primer?
    
    The house is about 65 years old.
    
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Steve
    
    
    

    there are 2 products on the market that will solve this type of
    problem.  1 B.I.N.  2. KILZ  go to a good hardware store or
    paint supplier, they will have it. you can apply any type of
    paint over these within 40 minutes. these will also keep the 
    yellow stains from bleeding thru the latex ceiling paint.
    there also excellent for exterior use of pine mouldings,
    especially in #2 pine to cover knots, and preventing
    bleed thru, where any type of paint is used.
    
    jim.
    

my guess would be that there is paint which contains calcimine (sp?)
on the ceiling.

We have that in our home and bought a paint formulated to go over it 
without peeling (Muralo brand).  The ceilings were very dirty so we 
used two coats and two months later there is no sign of peeling.
It is an oil base so open the windows !!!

Karen

    
    Calcimine under the oil paint is the probable culprit.  Read notes
    7.*.  You have the choice of removal (probably by steaming), or
    painting with an oil based paint.
    
    -tm
    

    The replies here seem to be along the right lines. Since .1 suggested
    using BIN I thought I might add my experience with the product.
    
    A) It works great! It is a shellac based paint and once you cover
       something with it, it stays covered. I have used it to prime
       bleeding knots, rust and water stains and have had 0 problems
       with coverage.
    
    b) There is one potential gotcha. Don't use in in conditions of
       very high humidity! Because it is shellac based, it uses an
       alcohol solvent and if it's humid enough ( I was working on
       a ceiling on a very hot, humid july night ) it will clump
       up and get stringy and make a terrible mess. It reminded me
       of partially dry rubber cement. My dim rememberance of
       chemistry leads me to believe that the alcohol attracts the
       moisture and becomes something which is no longer a shellac
       solvent, but, I may be wrong on the cause; the effect is
       definite.
    
    Alan

    My significant other (I hate that) is a professional painter.
    He uses only the finest paints because his goal is not to
    make the most money, but to do high quality work.  He uses
    only Martin Senour, Pittsburgh, Pratt and Lambert or Benjamin
    Moore.  
    
    Martin senour is available around the Manchester NH area at
    Goedecke's in Bedford.
    
    Ellen

    If you use exterior paint indoors does it afford any advantages?
    Is it more durable?  More flexible and crack-resistant?

    One thing to note is that all the restrictions on the amount of
    lead in paint don't apply to exterior paint, onlyto interior.  At
    least, I think that's what I read.
    
    	Andrew
    

    Re: .1
    I doubt it; I haven't seen lead-and-oil exterior paint for sale
    for years.  I'm pretty sure the lead ban applies to all paint,
    interior and exterior.

    Wrongo....
    
    
    The exterior lead content of paint must be removed as high as a
    child can reach (at least in Mass) in order to conform with the
    lead paint laws.  
    
    -bill
    Whos back porch is covered with lead paint so he doesn't have any
    children as tenants.
    

    One thing I do know is that exterior pant is more flexible, ie,
    it "breathes" more than interior paint does. It has to because of
    the varying temperatures that occur outside. As a result it probably
    is more "porous" and crack resistant.
    
    You could use exterior paint inside but using interior paint inside
    produces a much nicer, smoother finish. On the other hand using
    interior paint outside would be a mistake......
    
    
    I don't think using ext. paint inside produces any advantage.......
    
    
    just my opinion
    
    Bob

    Exterior paints also "chalk"....this is how they shed dirt that
    builds up on the surface...I dont know how this would work in an
    interior environment.

I recently saw an ad for a product from MINWAX called 
"Polyshades."  They claim it's a one-step finishing process
that applies both the stain and a protective polyurethane 
topcoat in one application. 

I love to build things but really hate those finishing steps
of two/three coats each of stain and polyurethane.  This sounds
like just what I need to quicken the finishing process but I 
really don't want to waste all that construction effort if
it gets ruined by taking a bad shortcut.  Anyone use this stuff
and wish to recommend or comment?

-JFK- (I'd wallpaper before painting anyday.)

I haven't used that stuff, but I've used colored Watco oil, with very nice 
results.  About the only problem that I can think of is that you may wind up 
getting a piece darker than you want by the time you have enough finish on it.

Of course, you can always use the colored stuff for the first coat, and then 
clear poly for the subsequent coats.

Paul

    
    I've had trouble with the single-step finishes.  As guessed by -.1
    when I used it, it did come out much too dark; so I had to strip
    the furniture I had just built (very annoying).         

    One step stain and poly finishes are incredibly hard to do well,
    especially in the lighter shades and on large surfaces. The main 
    problem I've had (and seen) is that the stain doesn't stay mixed 
    evenly so you get streaks and/or blotches when trying to match one
    brush load with the last. The only way I've been able to do a nice
    job is many very thin coats with sanding (440 wet) between. The
    easiest poly finish I've used is to use ordinary stain and a spray
    polyurethane. Granted the spray cans are expensive but I find the
    ease of use and results worth it. Several thin sprayings with
    000000 steel wool between work very well. It seems to dry so much
    faster than the brushed version that dust is much less of a problem.
    
    Using separate stain you have much better control of color than
    with the one step.
    
    Alan

    Here is another vote against it. I used this stuff to refinish a
    mirror and did not like the results. The first coat was no problem.
    But after that, like the previous reply, it tended to streak. The
    final result was an undesirable finish with most of the original
    grain lost.
    
    Tim_who_now_stains_and_then_it's_tung_oil_and_varnish
    

Thanks for all the sad tales about polyshade.  I thought it 
sounded to good to be true.  It may not be much comfort but
I'm glad I am just reading about them instead of telling them.

Well I guess I'll stick with the old tried & true methods.

-JFK- (still hate paint brushes, but, Hate stripping more)

     I am thinking of re-painting the siding of my house, there are many
   discussion of "stain over paint" in the note file, but i can't find    
    any discussion about " paint over stain". Because i am not sure
    whether i have paint or solid stain on my house,so 
        my questions are :                                         
     1. can i use paint over solid stain ?                         
     2. if yes, what type of paint is best for it ?                
     3. do i have to put a coat of primer before painting ?
             thanks in advance.                                    
              steve.

    We put Sears Weatherbeater Latex over solid stain 3 years ago and
    so far have had no problems. Just make sure you clean the surface
    before painting.

    The following is opion but I think correct!
    
    Of course you can't find anything on painting over stain, nobody does
    it! Lots of folks are interested in staining over paint however,
    because stain is much easier to take care of.
    20 or more years ago, there wasn't much interest in stain, except
    in summer camp- because very little was available except brown yucky
    stuff. That is no longer true. There is now a tremendous variety
    of stain available.
    
    As I said the above is opinion
    
    				herb
    				who wishes his house had stain on it

    RE .1
    please do not confuse me with reality. :-)
    
    None the less, I think a discussion of the pros & cons of painting
    over stain would be useful.
    

    
    First of all ...
    
    if I was going to paint a house, weather it was stained or not,
    I would use and oil based paint, not latex. Oil based paints
    protect the wood better, and are more weather resistant.  I can
    easily understand using latex on the interior, because it
    doesn't stink as much and clean-up is easier.  Weather resistant
    or not, I do not believe that latex is very good for the
    outdoors.  It is much too porous (on the microscopic level).
    
    Second of all ...
    
    I would *never* stain over paint.  Staining is so easy - you
    just brush or spray over the old stain.  In order to paint
    *properly*, you have to scrape off all the dirt and cracking
    paint before you even start.  If you don't like the color, you
    may be able to restain it a different color if the original
    stain isn't too dark.  I'm trying to figure out how I can
    *un*paint my house - maybe we should trade ;^). 
    
    Thirdly ...
    
    I think stain would definitely be a good resale point.  Anyway,
    it would be if *I* were buying the house.
    
    -tm
    

      You can paint over stain any time you want. The same rules apply
    as when painting over any other surface. It must be clean, dry,
    and not chalking. If you have any chalking then you should
    use an oil-based paint, but if you really want to use a latex-based
    paint then you should wash the surface first. You must also make
    sure that you wash any glossy suface before you apply latex paint-
    to insure adhesion. Use TSP which is available at any paint store.
    
      As for staining over paint, this is not usually possible because:
    		1. Stain does not have binders in it (only pigment,
    			oil, and dryer). Thus after a fairly short time
    			you may find it flaking off. 
    		2. Stain doesn't usually have enough body to cover over
    			paint.
    
	I know there will be some people who say they've stained over
    paint and it's been fine, but then, I know of people who've driven
    drunk and not been in an accident -- That doesn't mean it's good
    to do.
    
    					Kenny

    I agree with everything that 5 says. What i should have said in
    .2 is 
    "Of course you can't find anything on painting over stain, nobody WOULD
    WANT to do it. (but it is relatively easy to do). Lots of folks would
    be interested in staining over paint however, because stain is so much
    easier to take care of. etc but you can't stain over paint very easily
    if at all"
  
    My house has several coats of latex paint
    I wish it had stain instead. 
    I don't know how to get there from here (without sandblasting). 

    I can't imagine why anybody would WANT to put paint over stain
    (but my ears and eyes are open)
    
    				herb

Without trying to give you the inferiority complex suggested by 
earlier notes (gee whiz guys, this person's asking for our help, lets 
not snob him out).....

I believe painting over stain is ok. However, the first coat should be 
a (preferably oil-based) primer to seal the stain from bleeding 
through.

    We've been getting estimates from painting contractors the last
    couple of weeks. Our house is painted with latex and I've been asking
    them all if they can put an oil-based paint over it. The unanimous
    response was a resounding "NO!" The reason: latex paint breathes,
    oil-based paint does not. If you put oil-based over latex the latex
    will breathe the oil-based paint right off the house. 
    
    Conversely, it's ok to put latex over oil-based paint.
    
    Mike

      The real problem with mixing types of paints that are applied
    on a house are the different rates of expansion and contraction.
    Where latex paint is much more flexible than oil-based paint it
    can withstand the movement better than oil-based can over latex.
    The best idea is to stick (no pun intended) with the type that's
    already on the house.
    
    					Kenny

    amateur question. so please be kind. can i stain new red cedar
    clapboard "white"? if i decide i don't like white, can i then stain
    it brown?

I recently looked into white stain (to finish some windows) - you have
to be careful in that it doesn't 'cover'.  on unfinished wood it looks
like a thin paint job, I was told to prime first (in which case I
might was well paint afterwards) - in fact, am not sure why anyone
would use white stain.... 

    re .-1
    <why anyone would use white stain...>
    why do you think white stain might be any different from any other stain?
    If in fact there ARE any advantages to staining over either latex
    or oil based paint -and it seems as tho this discussion is suggesting
    there are- i would have guessed the same advantages would apply
    to white stain.
    <you have to be careful in that it doesn't 'cover'>
    This point would seem applicable to ANY stain/paint
    
    				herb

    
    I received a Grossman's flyer in the mail this week, and
    they were advertising solid latex *stain*!  I wasn't even aware
    that there were latex stains.  They claimed it was good for
    staining over paint.
    
    -tm
    

    re .8 
       
    So if it's not good to apply oil (actually alkyd) based paint over
    a latex paint, is it okay to use an alkyd *primer* over latex?             
                                                                               
    My house has latex paint and is peeling badly. The contractor
    recommended spot priming the bare spots with Moore's Alkyd primer, and 
    then doing a complete prime of the entire surface. The finish coat
    of latex paint would go over this.  Doesn't this go against the
    rule of not using oil over latex -- or is primer exempt from the
    rule?
       
    Joe                               
       

    I was talking to an ex-painting contractor/paint store owner this
    past weekend and he kept mentioning oil primer over latex.  After
    reading this note I had little question marks dancing around in
    my head.  Anybody got any corresponding answers??
    
    	?
    ? Stan ?
    	?

      Use latex primer over latex. If your house is peeling badly you
    may have a moisture problem. Either an inadequate vapor barrier
    or a roof/gutter related water problem.
    
    					Kenny

    The local paint store here (olde timer) recommended the Benjamin
    Moore ALKYD primer over ANY exterior paint.  Then the choice was
    up to me for latex or oil based, but his recommendation was latex
    for easier cleanup, etc
    
    	-Barry (in New Jersey)-

    Another vote against Minwax Polyshades.  I used it on new interior
    windows - it gums as well as streaks.  I was sorry that I ever touched
    the stuff.

                                                             

Ah... I remembered reading this note, but I couldn't find it again when 
I went looking.  I used Polyshades to finish an oak cabinet and was very 
pleased with the results. (takes all kinds)  I can't say I did anything 
special -- just followed the directions on the can, and the cabinet came 
out looking like the sample piece of oak at the store. (The store had a 
display showing each color's effect on oak and pine.) 

Just thought there should be representation for the other side.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    I haven't seen a note on this topic, maybe it's buried under
    some other heading.  
    
    I'm interested in "pickling" it's either a painting or staining
    technique that allows you to add color to wood and still see the
    grain of the wood.
    
    Does anyone know how this is done ?  I have wainscotting that
    I would like to use this technique on.  Right now the wainscotting
    is a dark reddish brown color.  There is no varnish or shellac on
    it.  I'm planning on lightening this with bleach, or oxycillic acid
    (sp?) I want to color it sand or light beige.
    
    Any suggestions ?
    
    thanks
    Karen Curran

A typical pickling solution is 25% white paint, 25% turps and 50% 
polyurethane.  The paint lightens the wood slightly, the poly seals it 
and the turps take it into the wood instead of having it sit on top.

The best thing to do is to get some scrap wood and try several different 
mixtures until you find the one you like.  The effect can't be judged 
correctly until it's dry.

All the pickling jobs I've seen are done with white paint, but I suppose 
you could use any color you like.  Penetration into the wood is the name 
of the game, so you can't use the technique on wood that has a sealer of 
any kind on it, but you seem to know that already.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    If you bleach wash this with vinegar or some other neutralizing
    agent. I disagree with .1, I wouldn't add the poly to the first
    coat, mix a pastel color paint with +75% thinner, brush on, rub
    it in. After this dries apply finish coats of comparable poly etc.
         

    ......but I have to paint on it.           My problem is that
    I have a mooring already in the water (and that would be difficult
    to bring on-shore. However, I could lift it out of water for 
    a period of time).   It is has an orange color mooring marker.
    
    The harbor master says the mooring marker has to be white and blue.
    
    Would anyone have any suggestions on what kind of paint I can
    use to cover the orange color? 
    Any experience with painting plastic(???) where the paint lasted 
    for a while?    How would you prep the material?  Etc.
                                           
    Thanks, Bill

...Maybe the author lives on a houseboat!  :^)

While it's true that the topic is only marginally related to Home_work, I think 
the author is likely to get useful feedback here, and the info is likely to be 
useful to home_workers.

To the author:  check out the keyword PAINT (note 1111.58).  There are notes 
about painting vinyl (notes 492 and 525), formica (note 1709), and other
not-too-sticky surfaces, and you might find some good information already here.

Paul

    You might also find help in CASV02::SAILING... Marine Epoxy might
    be what you want.
    
    Mark

The Color Studio in Sudbury is closed or on vacation (no answer).  Any 
other ideas on where to find Martin Senour Paints in the Central MA
area?

[Turns out the exterior paint on our house is MS and I want to do some 
touch up]

    If you're willing to go as far as Waltham center, Waltham Wallpaper
    and Paint carries Martin Senour paints.
    
    They're on Main Street (rt 20) on the block after the Waltham common
    (such as it is).  They're on the left side of the street.
    
    I've found them to be a very good place for paint and wallpaper
    supplies and assistance.
    
    BTW, it's about 3 miles past Rt 128.

    An interesting tip on cleaning brushes (especially ones with dried
    paint) from a This Old House rerun:
    
    Soak the brush in a household cleaner like Lestoil or Top Job for
    a few days.  Then just rinse it out in water, shake it out, and
    hang it up.
    
    It seemed too easy, so I tried it on an old brush.  It worked like
    a charm.  No odor, and the cost of Lestoil is less than half of
    the cost of brush cleaner.
    
    Bob         
    
    

Doesn't surprise me - Lestoil is great for getting oil, or even epoxy 
paint off of hands without scrubbing, why not brushes?

Less toil - get it?

    This note has the right title, but not the information I was looking
    for.  There is just the hint in the base note and elsewhere that
    I can "Cover the paint with some kind of magic stain".
 
    My house has an old, but good paint job on it.  It hasn't blistered or
    peeled, it's simply worn thin. What is the story on using opaque stain
    over previously painted clapboard?  My neighbor says it goes on
    easier, you use less, and it is otherwise far superior to paint.
    
    This stain apparently has nothing to do with showing the wood grain or
    working with unpainted wood.  In fact, it sounds like paint to me.  Is
    this something new?  Enlightenment please. 
                          

    There are many different types of stain that I recently became aware
    of as I too am going to stain my house. I know that Cabot has a
    Solid Color Stain that can be applied on previously painted surfaces
    usually with one coat. At least that is what they advertise. They
    also have the opaque stain that you mention, which can also be used
    over painted surfaces but if you are going from dark to light you
    need more than one coat. I would think the opaque is primarily for
    new wood. But I'm no expert. I'm still researching. Also, Cabot
    Stains colors are pretty limited and they don't recommend mixing
    toget different shades.

    
    Use the Cabot's if you can! I used it 1 year ago and am happy with
    the results. I was staining over:
    
    	bare wood (where I had scraped down to wood)
        the rest- 2 coats of white, 1 coat of GLOSSY RED oil base, 1
        coat of light grey. 
    
    I used 2 coats, and have had only 1 problem area, a place where
    I didn't scrape the original junk sufficiently and the red oil based
    stuff bubbled up. 
    
    I'd use it again for sure.
    
    Steve e.
    

    This note is kind of old, but my question best fits under this
    heading....
    
    We bought 8 gallons of Sears Interior Satin Flat paint about 2
    years ago.  The cans have never been opened, and have been stored
    in our basement the entire time (temp there never gets below 60
    degrees).  We never got around to doing the rooms we thought we
    would, so it just sat.  Now, we're having and addition done, and
    I'd like to use this paint for the walls in those new rooms.
    
    Question - Is there any problem with using paint this old that's
    never been opened?  I imagine that I should either have them shaken
    or get a drill-attached mixer to get them good and stirred.  But
    have the properties of the paint deteriorated with that long of
    a shelf life??
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    andy
    

    I've used paint more than 2 years after it was *opened* with no 
    apparent adverse effects.  It was interior latex paint-can't say 
    about oil base.
    
    I would think that unopened paint would last years.
    
    Bob

    See the listing under the STAIN keyword in 1111.80 for lots more
    on this subject.  

    I think you will find that the oil paint will have a layer of oil
    on top of the can.  Just peel that off and throw it out (or burn
    it), and be sure to thoroughly stir the paint up.  Get right down
    to the bottom, because there tends to be quite a bit of sediment
    at the bottom.  If you don't get it stirred enough, you will find
    the top portion of the can will have a lighter shade and the lower
    portion will have a darker shade.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    I'm getting ready to put solid stain on new cedar clapboards of
    a recently constructed addition. Having never used stain before I 
    have several questions I didn't find previously answered.   
    
    The rest of the house will stay white vinyl for a few years, until
    we can pull the vinyl down. I figure I should stain the new part
    white to sort of match the old (eventually I want it grey).
    
    1) Do I also use stain on the trim (which is pine).  Do I use
    the same white stain I used on the clapboards also on the trim? (With
    paint the trim is usually glossier than the main body.)
    
    2) I noticed stain comes in oil and latex?  Most people  have
    only talked about oil stain so I assume you feel it is better than
    the latex stain.  Why?  I couldn't find any info on latex stain.
    
    3) Is a primer necessary when using stain?  Do I need 1 coat of
    primer and then 1 or 2 coats of stain?  Or are 2 coats of stain
    sufficient?   Would I only need to use the Bin (or similar) on
    knotholes that are on the trim?                                 
    
    
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Kathy

      1. You can certainly use the same stain on the trim as on the body
    of the house if you want to. It can be painted or stained over at
    a later time if you wish to change the color.
      2. Latex stain is barely more than thinned-down latex paint and
    it can/will peel at some later date which oil stain won't usually
    do. Also oil stain by virtue of the oils etc. that are in it should
    preserve the wood better.
      3. No you would NOT use a primer before staining new wood, and
    usually one coat will be OK. However stain is deceiving, it may
    still look very good but should be redone in about 5-6 years.
    
      You would want to use BIN or a similar knot-sealing coating on
    knots before staining, otherwise the knots will show through, especially
    when using white.	                     
    
      Just make sure you work from the top - down and only work a few
    clapboards at a time, going all the way across or at least stopping
    at a joint or window, to avoid lap-marks which will spoil the appearance
    of your job.                       
    
    					Kenny

    Get one of the stirrers that attaches to your electric drill, stir
    it up good (including the gunk on the bottom, or, as the previous
    reply said, you won't get even color), and don't worry about it
    -- I've had opened cans that have been around for much longer than
    that.  I never removed the oil from the top, either - only skinned-over
    paint if the can was almost empty.  Even eaiser, if you have a friendly
    local hardware store, is to have the unopened cans in your car the
    next time you go there for something else, and ask them if they
    would mind shaking them up for you on their machine; the place I
    normally buy hardware from doesn't mind doing this if they aren't
    too busy at the time (especially if the cans are a brand they sell
    so that they assume that I bought them there, even if I actually
    didn't).

		Help!!! exterior house paint is peeling off
                -------------------------------------------

	I'm new to this note file, and this is my first time to paint
        the house too.

	We bought the highly recommended LATEX paint by paint shop, and the
	brand name is 'Pratt & Lambert'.  We did all the proper prepara-
	tion, such as scrap the loose paint off, sand it, clean it, and
	put preimer on.  But, after we painted in couple of days, the paint
	peeled off.  We called the paint shop, and of course somebody was
  	over.  He claimed the old paint underneath is oil paint because
	he got chalking powder when he touched the surface, so the
	latex paint won't stay.  He suggested us to scrap it and put
	preimer on, and paint again.  We did what he said, but we used
	'Benjermin Moore' paint instead.  There's no peeling afterwards.

	But, right now the other side of the house had the 'Pratt & Lamber'
	paint is peeling off.  I feel so bad about all the work we did is
	useless.  We called the paint shop again, and somebody is going to
	come over on Sunday to take a look.  I want to get as much information
	I can to know what really goes wrong.

	Did we do something wrong?  The guy from the paint shop claimed the
	old paint is oil paint by the chaulking powder - is this a right
	assumption?  How to tell the difference from a oil paint and latex
	paint after it's dry?

	I appreciate any suggestions and comments.


	Alice

I painted houses for five years prior to going to school and joining DEC, and 
I'll have to say that the comment of "latex over oil, that's the problem," is
a line of BULL! Ask him what the what the base is on all exterior primers??\
OIL!  The rule of thumb, strictly because of the paints breathing
characteristics, is that latex will go over properly prepared oil surfaces,
but DO NOT put an oil over latex.  Of course, you may get a few different
opinions, but I can safely say, that after hundreds of gallons of paint and 
stain, I never had a problem with the described "rule."   I have used P&L 
paints, and personally I don't care for them.  my first preference for latex
paints is California, followed my Pittsburgh.  I'm sure that this may also
cause controversy, but again, in five years I NEVER had a problem or call 
from a customer that sounded anything like your described situation!

Are you sure that you washed you house with strong TSP or equivalent?  Did you 
add any additives to your paint?? There are some that are *very* good for 
older "chalky" surfaced.  Most of these are made by Flood.  For some of the 
best consultation, try Lynch Paints in Westford or Willmington. They are 
excellent, and they carry *all* the brands, so you are assured of the straight 
scoop.

So far as getting the "new" P&L paint off, you may wish to try renting a 
pressure was... we used these with  great success at getting 90% of loose
flaking paint off.  Otherwise, you may have to resort to elbow grease.  
I think if you are in the North East, I would *not* try painting this late 
in the season.

To tell whether you have Oil or Latex paint, take a chip of paint in your 
hand,(the bigger the better).  Try bending it, if it breaks, it is more than 
likely oil, if it is flexible, it is most likely latex.  Oil paints DO have 
a greater tendency to become oxidized and chalky, but flat latexes can also 
produce the same characteristics.  What color is it??  The color retention of 
latex is usually better.  If it is badly faded, chances are you might have.
There is usually NO problem doing exactly what you did.  Especially if you 
primed(what kind of primer was this? Ox-line trouble shooter is *the* best!).
What was the temp when you applied you top coat??

Well, I'm sick of typing!  I hope this helps.  Feel free to give me a call 
if you have any other question.

Brian Jorgensen
dtn 241-3504

    I should have mentioned the name of the additives... 
    
    Ez-Bond by flood is for repainting old, chalky surfaces for LATEX
    Pentrol by flood is the same for OIL BASED paints
    
    
    /Brian                                         

      Depending upon the actual pigment ingredients, Latex and oil paints
    can BOTH chalk. Usually it is because of a high calcium content.
     Latex paint is NOT supposed to be used over ANY paint that is chalking
    unless you wash the old paint first with TSP or equiv. If the new
    paint is peeling away from the old, then it's clearly a lack of the
    new paint to adhere to the old. This is the way that latex normally
    fails; - it either works fine, or peels prematurely. In the case of
    painting over chalking paint, oil is much more forgiving.
    
    					Kenny

    RE .1 .2 .3
    Thanks a lot for you guys' comments.
    
    I used Moore's latex primer.
    
    I did use TSP to wash the areas which had mildew, but not the whole
    house.  I used hose to wash the house and let it dried before I
    did anything else.  Will this take most of the chalk away?
    
    Everytime when we painted, the temperature was above 50 degree F.
    
    I didn't add any additives to my paint, but the paint contains
    something to prevent mildew growing (says on the can).
    
    Alice
    

Alice,

You should have cleaned your ENTIRE house with a strong mix of TSP.  This
is essential for good adhesion of the top coat.  No, a hose will not
sufficiently remove the "chalk" from your clapboard.  I can't say I have had
any experience with the Latex primer that you described, once again, I'll 
give the pitch for some previously mentioned products.  50 degrees seems a 
bit cold, but I don't think that was the cause of your disaster.   I suggest
(in the spring) trying to get as much of the flaking paint off as you can,
with a pressure wash(You can apply your TSP with the pressure wash), or whatever,
give it proper priming, over bare wood, and give it your top coat *with* some
Ez-Bond.   My preference with TSP is Red Devil, as apposed to Savo-grain.  
The Red Devil is *much* stronger!

Good Luck!

Brian

    RE: .5

>    I suggest (the spring) trying to get as much of the flaking paint
>    off as you can, with a pressure wash(You can apply your TSP with
>    the pressure wash), or whatever,

    Is this a wise thing to do?  I thought TSP was a pretty potent cleaner.
    Won't a power washer put this stuff everywhere you don't want it?
    (shrubs, people, cars....)  Also, if you have mildew, you'll want to
    add bleach to the mixture.  If it was me, I wouldn't use a power washer
    with this mixture.
    
    One question, how long after you washed the house did you prime
    the surface?  Could it still have been damp?  Was the peeling from
    the areas that went down to the bare wood or all over the house?

    You have my sympathies in your current situation.  I spent many days
    this summer prepping and priming one side of my house.  Previos
    "quicky" paint jobs just weren't done properly.  I used Benjamin
    Moore oil-based paint and have had good luck with it.
    
    Phil
    

>    Is this a wise thing to do?  I thought TSP was a pretty potent cleaner.
>    Won't a power washer put this stuff everywhere you don't want it?
>    (shrubs, people, cars....)  Also, if you have mildew, you'll want to
>    add bleach to the mixture.  If it was me, I wouldn't use a power washer
>    with this mixture.
 
Yup! TSP is certainly strong... it's trisodium phosphate ...*Phosphate*
phosphate is a form of fertilizer, and will NOT harm your shrubs, lawn, etc.
I've used the described method on hundreds of houses with EXCELLENT success, 
and lasting results.  Bleach is *not* necessary with a strong solution.
The pressure washers are *very* directional, so with care,(and I trust you 
are painting your house with care, ie you don't have your kids or your
neighbors kids running around the ladders) you can eliminate lots of elbow
grease......  be careful though, they deliver 1500 some odd lbs, so you can 
blow a window out if you are not careful.  Trust me, this is a proven method.


>  Previous "quickie" paint jobs just weren't done properly. 

Ditto there.... nothing worse than a shotty job!


/Brian

    re: .6
    
       We primed the bare wood portion after the house was totally dry.
    The paint peel off on the places which have the old paint there.
    
    Strong Suggestion for people live in Worcester area:
    =================
    
       After all the things happened to us, we think it's the problem
    of the P&L paint.  We went back to the store where we bought the
    paint and tried to explain what happened and wish they will do
    something.  But.....
    
       Here's some of the answers we got from the owner.
    Q. The paint you told us to buy is no good.
    A. This is a liberal country, and you can buy any brand you want.
       We didn't force you to buy P&L.
    Q. But it peels off right away, it supposed to last 15 to 20 years
       according to your saleman.
    A. No paint can last 15 years, 5 years is the most.
    Q. Why did your man tell us 15 years?
    A. Of course, we try to steal money from our customers.
    Q. How do you explain why we had no problem with Benjamin Moore
       paint?
    A. I don't know.  But, you got a sick house.
    Q. Are you going to do anything?
    A. No.
    Q. Is this the way you do business about unsatisfied customer?
    A. Yes.
    
       I think that's the end of it.  I'm writing this out because I
    don't want this kind of unhappy situation happens to anyone else
    again.
    
       The store is ECONOMY PAINT on Rt. 9 Shrewsbury(across from Ground
    Round), and the owner has another Economy paint in Worcester too.

Why don't you file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau???

In Worcester, you might try Edwards Paint and Wall Paper.  I've bought lots
of paint from them because they sell California, and they deliver.  I 
can't comment on their consultation.  For *good* consultation, try
Lynch paint in Westford(Rt 110) as for Bob Coehn.  
      .... Sorry to hear about your luck with EP
/Brian

    
>>    Why don't you file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau???
    
    He took the words right out of my "fingers"!
    
    I would call the Better Business Bureau, then write a letter to
    the owner, and tell him why you reported him.  That kind of 
    treatment is appalling.
    
    -tm

    Thanks for the suggestions, support, and sympathy to all of you.
    
    I will send a complaint letter to Better Business Bureau and Worcester
    Evening Gazette CONTACT.
    
    Alice

    I've aquired a wall unit made from press board covered with an oak
    laminate.
    
    I'd like suggestions on painting over the "natural" oak finish.
    
    The results I'd like to achieve would be to have a glossy white
    painted finish that matches the color of the the house interior
    trim that allowed the grain of the wood to show up.
    
    The laminate is supposed to be wood although it appears to be a
    smooth and shiny in appearance almost like its plastic counterpart.
    
    If you've had any experience in painting such a surface I'd like
    to know about preparation of the surface, primers and paints, spray
    or brush, etc.
    
    Thanks!

    All I can think of is semi-transparent stain, usually used on the
    exterior of a house.  I don't know whether using it for an interior
    application would cause problems; you don't want to use an exterior
    paint indoors because exterior paints chalk, but that shouldn't be true
    for stain.
    
    Sounds like a question for a good paint store.  Let us know what you
    find out.

    RE: .0
    
    Is this what is called "pickling"???  You might try looking in some
    back issues of the Old House Journal.

    Phil

    I'm off to see a couple of paint stores and carpenters for some
    advice.  I'll post their recommendations here.
    
    Regards,
    
    Eric

    For oil-based paints, various solvents can be used to thin the paint to
    the correct consistency and to keep it there as the sovent evaporates
    from your bucket.
    
    A petroleum based thinner is usually used. Turpentine can be used
    outdoors since it dries faster and actually leaves a residue which
    becomes part of the paint film (turpentine has resins). Its smell can
    dissipate faster outdoors too.
    
    There is also manufactured solvent which is even more effective in
    forming a residue.

    The electronic sensor and mixer is very interesting.
    
    I've only tried matching colors by adding tints, which isn'teasy since
    paint changes color as it dries  Dry paint is grayer than wet paint.
    Oil gloss darkens as it dries. Oil flat will darken and then lighten,
    sometimes to a shade lighter than when wet.
    
    For very small areas, I've sometimes painted with the corner of a paper
    towel. The old paint will vary according to how it's been affected by
    sunlight and dirt. Oil-based paint also yellows as it ages). 

    I've spent much time over a bucket of thinner or gas, cleaning
    brushes. I couldn't just dump them, since some were beautiful china bristle
    brushes 5" wide.
    
    I used methods similar to .7 & .11, repeatedly washing solvent up into
    the bristle up to the ferule where the bristle are bound to the handle.
    A brush comb was helpful in breaking-up the paint near the ferule. I
    then used a spinner to dry the brush (or roller cover). This was
    repeated till the washing solvent was clear.

    But I found it difficult to avoid some build-up and hardening even when
    I let the brush stand in a small rectangular can of brush cleaner or
    remover. I saved the solvent, so that it could be reused when the
    pigment dropped out of suspension.

    After the final spin, I'd wrap the brush carefully to form the bristle
    into a chisel.

    For a short job using the same paint, I would sometime wrap the brush
    in aluminum foil (with a little thinner) and put it in the freezer (for
    oil-base paint). Or the brush could be left suspended in the paint
    (above the ferule) with a little thinner floated on the paint. (Of
    course paint isn't supposed to get this high up the bristles but
    after using a brush for several hours, including upside-down, the paint
    would usually fill the brush.)

    I believe that old-time painters would wash their brushes at night
    and then hang then in linseed oil (probably to prevent drying). The
    brushes would need to be re-cleaned before use.

    Cleaning with water & soap (lestoil) is mentioned. I hesitate to do
    this since the water could cause the fibers to swell and become flabby
    and later to become hard.

    I do a LOT of painting and varnishing, so I will put in my .02 worth.
    The use of a brush spinner as suggested in .11 is great (about 15.95
    at Somerville Lumber). For certain jobs, that are messy but don't
    need a good quality brush, use a disposable one from Spags.
    
    
    After cleaning my good brushes in paint thinner (many people are
    allergic to turpentine), I clean them again with the waterless hand
    cleaner which contains lanolin (and paint thinner). After shaping
    the bristles, wrap in a paper towel to keep dust off the bristles.
    The lanolin helps keep them in good condition, some people with
    very expensive brushes use shampoo & conditioner on them. I haven't
    gone that far, but  it seems reasonable.
    
    For my fine varnish work, I keep a brush in turpentine, by pushing
    the handle through the cut-off nipple of a glass baby bottle, so
    the bristles are kept submerged in turps. If you do a lot of this
    work, keep a separate brush for varnish, and never let it dry out.
    If if does, dust and particles of dried varnish will show up in
    your work.
    
    This all sounds like a lot of work, but you never throw away any
    brushes, and it is great to be able to reach for a brush and know
    it will be in ready-to-go condition.
    
    Joseph
    

    A friend of mine is renovating his kitchen and was told that the
    woodwork was finished using "val oil" (or something like that).
    It looks a lot like good ol' varnish to me, but he wants to be 
    able to match the existing woodwork. Has anyone heard of this 
    stuff? Any idea where (in Southern NH) to get it?
    
    Thanks.         

    There's a product with trade name "val oil" that should be
    available in most any hardware store that sells paints.

>< Note 344.1 by BEING::WEISS "Forty-Two" >
>
>
>When we put down our floor we asked a couple of flooring contractors what they 
>used, and the best reccommendation we had was for Zip-Guard.  We've only had it 
>down for 6 months, so I can't tell you how it wears.
>
>Paul

	So Paul,  It's been 3 years now.  Still got the same house ? and
	if so, how's the finish holding up ?
	
	Thanks.
	Scott.

>	So Paul,  It's been 3 years now.  Still got the same house ? and
>	if so, how's the finish holding up ?

Looks great.  I can't visually tell any difference between the corners which 
get no wear and the doorway which we walk through constantly.

Paul

	After reading 10 or 12 topics with a total of about a skillion
	replies, I think what I need to do is finally about to sink in.
	After you put your stain (or whatever) on the floor, THEN you
	put the poly-U type stuff on it to make it seal, shine, etc.,
	right ?
	
	And, while I'm thinking about it....
	
	I'm trying to decide what looks best right now so I've got 4-5
	pieces that I plan try various finishes on.  After staining each
	piece, will the colors that I see be the colors that I get even
	after poly-U ?  or do I need to put the poly-U on as well to know
	what I'm going to end up with ?

	Thanks.
	Scott.

Put the poly on the samples too, the color will be different.  It's not 
that it changes, it's just that it brings it out differently.

    Most clear finishes are not really clear.  They tend to add a bit
    of a yellow or golden color to the wood.  Finishes also add depth
    to the wood.  I also recommend you put a finish on the test pieces
    because what you like may change.
    

    This is not the place for this,but I am interested in the newest
    lists of all the conferences.Anyone knows please help?
    	
    			Frantz
    

	You could look at TURRIS::easynet_conferences {KP7 etc..}
    
    	or copy the file ANCHOR""::net$library:easynotes.lis to
    	your system and puruse to your hearts content.
    
    	Chris..

>> 	You could look at TURRIS::easynet_conferences {KP7 etc..}
 
RE:.1 Once you get into TURRIS::easynet_conferences, the listing of all 
      announced conferences can be found in Topic #2 and it's replies.
      Do a  DIR 2.* and the directory will be shown by category.

	VTX also has a listing of NOTES conferences and Nodes to find them 
	on.

JPM

    
    
               LOOK FOR THE BEST BUY ON EXTERIOR HOUSE PAINT
    
           Tis that time of year to break out those brushes and paint
        my house. Would like to know what the best paints are these
        days and where to buy in the greater Maynard area. Anyone 
        heard any specials or sales????????????
    
                                                    Thanks Mike
         
           

    Well, I used Sherwin-Williams 4 years ago, and it's holding up fine.
    They usually run a sale around now, Bedford, Ma being the closest
    outlet to Maynard. 
    
    Benjamin Moore is certainly a top of the line paint.  Spags would
    probably be the best place to get it-along with thinner, brushes,
    containers, ladders, wasp killer, sun screen, etc.
    
    Bob
    

    
    I always buy my paint at Spags.  Benjamin Moore, top of the line.
    However, if you are buying a large quantity of paint, you may be 
    able to get a better deal than you can get at Spags, especially
    if you quote Spags' price.  Sherwin Williams may be just as good, 
    but I haven't had any personal experience with it.
    
    Whatever brand you pick, be sure you get there best stuff.  It's
    just not worth getting the cheap stuff.   
    
                                                        

    Moore's (the building supply store in Ayer, Leominster, etc., not the paint
    company) is currently running a sale on the Olympic brand.  I know
    that their exterior stains and preservative stains are on sale (since
    that's what we'll be needing), but I think their paints are on sale,
    too.  We're going to be using Olympic since that's what's already
    on the house, but there's at least one other note here that suggests
    Olympic is a good brand.
    
    Is there any reason not to buy now, while the stain is on sale,
    given that we won't be staining until June at the earliest, and
    possibly not until September?
    
       Gary

    Town Paint in Marlboro, Natick, etc is also having their big spring
    sale this week. Good prices on tools and paint. I needed Cabots
    stain. They cary several brands of paint.
    							Chris

   > Is there any reason not to buy now, while the stain is on sale,
   > given that we won't be staining until June at the earliest, and
   > possibly not until September?                                      
     
    Paints and stains don't age that quickly. Buy when you see a good
    price. 

    My question: I've heard "professionals" say that you can stain
    safely when the temp is over 45 and won't go below freezing for
    6 hours (Even though most manufacturers don't back this up).
    Anybody tried this ?  Does that stain dry in a reasonable timeframe
    without spotting or other problems ? 

    
    
      Many paints and stains can be kept for YEARS and still be quite
    usable! It seems to be pot luck as to how long and which types/brands.
     If you are using an oil-based stain or paint, it won't hurt it
    even if it does go below freezing, it just takes much longer to
    dry. If you want to speed up the drying of an oil-based paint or stain
    get some Japan Drier which should be available at any good paint
    store. Follow the directions on how much to add keeping in mind
    what you want to accomplish and remembering that you don't want
    ANY paint or stain to dry too fast. Japan Drier seems very expensive
    (~$4 for 6-8 oz.) but you use very little (1-2 oz/gal). Paint always
    has some drier in it but in cool/cold weather it's a good idea to
    add some to help the paint dry.
    
    					Kenny

    Would anyone know where I could find a manual push lawnmower (i.e.new).
    I've looked everywhere and I can't locate anyone who sells them.
    Can someone help me?
    
    - Denny

    If you don't have any luck here you might want to check the Gardening
    conference (I think it's PICA::GARDENING).

    Where are you located???

    Fitchburg/Leominster area.
    
    Thanx
    
    Den
    

    Sears carries themm.  Grossmans also had them last summer.
    
    - gene

	When I worked in hardware (real hardware) about ten years ago,
	the Rolls-Royce of push mowers was the Scott's Silent, made (or
	distributed) by the fertilizer folk.

    If you're willing to get a used one, lots of people have them cluttering
    up their garages.  I was in the market for one last year, and put an ad
    in the CLASSIFIED_ADS notesfile.  I got several replies, and ended up
    paying $5 for one delivered to work.  I could have got one for free if
    I'd have been willing to pick it up.

    I have a very old manual lawnmower that needs the wooden roller
    replaced.  Any suggestions on where I may find one?
    
    John  (Haverhill, MA)

    
    
    I forget the name of the place but Townsend may have your answer.
    
    From Fitchburg to rt 119 east  on the right hand side A big
    barn/store/shop with 10's of new and used mowers and tractors and all
    kinds of garden or small farm equipment.  

>        I forget the name of the place but Townsend may have your answer.
>    
>    From Fitchburg to rt 119 east  on the right hand side A big
>    barn/store/shop with 10's of new and used mowers and tractors and all
>    kinds of garden or small farm equipment.  

    It's Shepherds Sales and Service, and it's on the left, not the
    right.
    

    
    SPAG'S, of course!  At the jewelry counter...

    
    
    Actually, they're hanging from the ceiling back near the rakes
    and shovels.

	Also at Goodall's in Northborough, I think its on Bartlett St.
I met a guy buying one in there last year, he (and apparently a lot of
other folks) needed a new mower, was trying to keep fit and saw a 
contradiction in paying lots of money for a powered mower to make life 
easy AND lots of money for a health spa/fitness club membership - so
he was planning to save on both. 

	R

    ...but for $135.

    I saw something interesting in a specialty catalog I received in
    the mail - a grass catcher for a manual mower!  So I would assume
    if they are making attachments for them, there must be an increasing
    demand.
    
    Sarah
    

    You might try Clappers in Newton.  They have nice (albeit upscale)
    stuff and cater to the professional landscaping crowd.  Only problem 
    is Clappers never seems to be open during non-business hours (i.e.,
    nights/weekends)

    I had a white cedar fence installed around my property two years
    ago.  It is becoming grey.  I hadn't coated it with anything but
    would like to now.  Can I still stain it etc.... thanks
    

    
    			<JC PENNEY>
    
    I bought mine last year from the JC PENNEY catalog.  I had to wait
    4 days for it to be delivered, but what's 4 days.  It was a 21",
    4 hp B&S with a rear bagger and conversion to side discharge.  It
    has run great.  The catalog has various kinds from throw aways to
    the kind you just turn the key.  I couldn't of done better unless
    I spent $200-$400 more.  
    
    
    STEWY

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Paul [Moderator]

    I used one of those white-pigmented shellac mixes that are for hiding
    water stains.  Well, it hid the stain okay, but when I painted over the
    entire area, the shellaced place stands out like a sore thumb, darker
    and shiny.  It has two coats of an excellent high hiding wall paint
    oover it and it still shows thru.  what to do.....
    

    We had to cover the ceilings with Bin three times before I was
    satisfied that the stains were covered, then we put up two coats
    of ceiling paint.  They look FFRREESSHH (as the kids say) now.
    
    You can't just paint over the stain, you have to do the entire surface
    with the shellac.   Then paint over that.
    

    FWIW, the builder of our house has had some problems with poor plumbing
    in the upstairs ceiling. Anyhow, they finaly have fixed the problem
    and the repairs to the roof over the last three attempts have been
    the following.
    1. Leak occured, localized replacement of gyprock ceiling, stiple
    then paint. (Looked like hell)
    2. Scrapped whole roof, painted then stippled. (Looked great)
    3. Leak occured again, wait for ceiling to dry out.
    4. Fixed leak permanently, we waited three months to make sure.
    5. Sprayed some kind of spray can on the water stain on the ceiling,
    then painted the whole ceiling. (Looked great)
    Everything fine now and no more leaks or problems. 
    So, there is a product other than shellac that will seal in water
    stains.

    Well, this morning the shellaced areas were indistinguishable from the
    rest of the ceiling. I am hoping this is due to extra drying/curing
    time and not just a function of sunlight vs. artificial light.  I will
    know when I get home.....
    

    The extra drying time did the trick -- no need to redo the entire
    ceiling with shellac, thank goodness.
    

    I used Touraine ( sp? ) latax paint in 1981. It's been 9 years now.
    A few areas near the gutter start peeling off ( probably due to
    leaky gutter ). Some trims are also start peeling. But 90 % of the
    exterior paint still holds very good ( probably will last for another
    twe years ). I'm VERY happy and very glad that I use Touraine (?)
    paint.
    
    I am now repainting some trims. What is a good brand of primer for
    latax trim paint ?
    

    Where is a good place to buy Touraine paint ? Does spec carry this
    brand ? A store in Malden sell Touraine latax for $18 a gal. 
    

re< Note 3172.8 by MSEE::CHENG >
>                    -< good place to buy Touraine paint ? >-


    Morin Supply on Route 140 in Milford, Mass. carries Touraine Paints.

    

    I haven't seen the topic of Paint Brand quality/recommendations discussed
    anywhere.  I'm about to undertake a complete interior painting effort
    of my new (old) home.  I've been watching for paint sales but have
    realized that I don't know the quality difference between Sears vs. 
    Dutchboy vs. Lucite vs Touraine.  I plan on using Latex (Gloss or 
    Semi-Gloss) for the ceilings, walls, and woodwork and hope to get
    a quality paint that is reasonable in price ($10/Gallon).
      
    Any and all information is appreciated.
    
    Thank you,
    
    KC

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Paul [Moderator]

    I just bought a 3 gang reel mower (used) and never used one before.
    I'm in the process of rebuilding them and adjusting.
    
    Here's a question, for someone with reel mower experiance:  At what
    height does a reel mower cut best?
    
    Alan

    I just picked up a Scott's Silent Deluxe at a yard sale for $15.
    It's the fourth mower I've tried this year (two other manuals and
    a used Sunbeam electric). This Scott's is by far the best. It's
    a precision mechanism, very quiet, height-adjustable, and it cuts
    beautifully. It actually cuts better than the electric, and I like
    the exercise of pushing it. It also has a clipping catcher that
    is very effective.
    
    I'm very pleased with it, and I'm glad that we're at least one house
    that isn't contributing to the nightly dinner-hour lawnmowing noise
    in the neighborhood. If you can find a Scott's Silent, buy it.

RE:                              <<< Note 3197.16 by WFOV11::BISHOP >>>

>   At what height does a reel mower cut best?
      
      Its  not  so much a question of the height at which the mower cuts
      best, but rather of whats best for the grass.  Depending  who  you
      ask you will get answers from about 1" up to about 3".  If you get
      persons with differing opinions that can get [almost]  violent  in
      defense of one or the other opinion.
      
      Here  is  what  I  believe:   Anything  less than 1" is asking for
      burnout in hot weather unless you water frequently  --  2-3  times
      daily  in  really hot, dry weather.  1-2" looks neat and trim with
      much better resistance to burnout.  Much more than about 3" begins
      too look too long -- i.e. it just doesn't look like it was cut.
      
      My  own  preference  is  3",  which  I fell is good for the grass.
      Here's a hint:  If you keep your mower sharp and in good repair it
      will  cut  more  evenly.  A long, even cut will look neater than a
      short, rough cut.  
      
          Enjoy your new/rebuild mower.

    re: .18
    
    What I was asking, was: what's best for the mower, with no regard
    for the grass.  When I got the mowers, they were set for one inch.
    They are now set for two inches.
    
    Al

re: .19
      
      Yes,  I  read  your  question,  but  thought  you  may  have  been
      miss-wording it.  Obviously not.  sorry.
      
      The  only  concern  for the mower that I know is that it should be
      high enough that it doesn't catch any rocks or  clumps  of  uneven
      ground.  i.e. that onlyt grass blades feed into it.  If it catches
      rocks, sticks or uneven ground the reel or cutting bar (blade) can
      be damaged. If your lawn is in reasonably good condition 2" should
      be fine.  If you have some rough spots you may want to avoid  them
      with  reel  mower  untill  you have a chance to do some somoothing
      work. 

	I've found that the reel mower can't cut grass higher than some
	max.  I suspect grass higher than half the height of the reel
	gets itself bent down instead of snipped.

	(So what fool mows a lawn of 7" grass with a hand mower? ...)

	Regards, Robert.

    EURO PAINTER
    
    I have recently seen an advertisement for what seems to be an
    incredible device used for painting.  It is call the "EURO PAINTER"
    Has anyone every heard of or better yet used one of these gadgets?
    It looks too good to be true, that is why I question the product.
    I have many ceilings and walls to paint and it looks as if it could
    make my job alot easier!
    
    Is it worth the $40.00 investment?
    

    I have read all about paint removing and all there is on LOW-E
    glass.
    
    My question is what is the best way to remove spattered paint 
    from LOW-E glass ?  Is a safe to use a razor or solvent ? 
    Since the LOW-E is acheived with a thin coating I don't want
    to distroy the coating getting off a couple spots of paint.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul
    

     The Low E coating used on double-paned windows is on the *inside*,
    so using a razor to remove paint will not damage it. You should
    note, however, that many window makers recommend that you do NOT
    use a razor to clean ANY double-paned window because of the risk
    of breaking the seal where the glass and frame meet. ( this is not
    to be confused with the seal between the 2 pieces of glass)

    					Kenny

Paul,

	Low E glass is usually supplied on double pane windows. If I can
safely assume that you are talking about at least a double pane window you
don't have to worry. The coating is on the inside, between the two panes of
glass.

						Mark

    MARK
    
    It is a single pane window, is there a way to tell which side
    the coating is on ?
    
    Paul

    
      Paul,
       There is NO single-paned window made with low E coating. Because
    the low E coating is a very thin layer of metal, exposure to the
    air would destroy it quickly due to corrosion. I suggest you re-examine
    your window(s).
    
    					Kenny

      -.1  is  right about low-E coatings; they don't put them on single
      pain glass.
      
      Are you sure you have a low-E? Or might it be a some other sort of
      coating?   Possibly  a  plastic  film  to   cut   glare/light/heat
      transmission?   If  this is what you have, then, yes, I'd expect a
      razor blade or paint solvent would damage the film.  Same for  any
      harsh  mechanical  or  chemical paint removal method.  Perhaps you
      could try a small section of glass in an out-of-the-way corner? If
      it damages the film/coating you may just be out of luck. You might
      also check with a glass company to see if they have any ideas.
      
      As  for  which  side has the film/coating, its probably the inside
      surface, which would be less subject to weather  damage.   If  you
      take a REAL close look you may be able to tell for sure.

    We just had French Doors installed with the double paned low E glass.
    The painter refuses to take the putty off because he is afraid of
    damaging the glass.  We have tried to take off the putty with a
    razor blade but this is slow and we have scratched the glass in
     places.  I have heard of something called a "plastic spoon" or
    whatever....Does anyone know what this is?  Do you have other
    suggestions?  The doors look "awful" right now.  Thanks for any
    help.
    
    Paula

    re: .6
    
    Why do you want to remove the putty?
    
    Elaine
    

    The putty was on the doors around the panes of glass.  I guess it's
    just the way they ship them.  Eventually, when the doors are stained
    or painted the putty needs to be removed because it looks like a
    mess.  Each pane (there are ten in each door) has this putty around
    it.  I guess it's how they set the glass in the door.  Anyway, does
    anyone know a better way to remove this junk other than with a razor
    blade????
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paula
    

    
    
    		Perhaps there is a solevent that will work with the putty
    	but not hurt the e coating.  You might get the address of a putty
    	manufacturer and call them to see if they can recommend a solvent.
    	Also this problem must have been solved by contractors in the
    	past?  Try asking at places that sell doors.
    
    	Good luck.

    1. ask the person you ordered the doors from
    2. ask the manufacturer of the doors.
    
    Maybe you can't remove the putty because it holds the glass in.
    
    Maybe your doors are defective because of this and you should return
    them.
    
    Elaine

    
    Didn't see this mentioned anywhere, or I missed it.
    Has anyone tried using shoe polish as a wood stain/preserver.
    1; It's a stain & 2; It's a wax.
    
    My expereince with it has been great and cheap.
    
    I refinished an oak dresser 15 years ago using mahogany shoe polish
    and it still looks greate to this day. It can be polished with common
    house-hold polishes. If water gets on it, the water will not penitrate.
    Just wipe it off.
    
    Also a set of custom auto speaker enclosures have been stains with
    brown polish. Faded a bit but, can be restained with no problem.
    
    Many, many items have been shoe polished and I have been so convinced
    I have finish all the interior wood in my house with it. Looks great!
    
    If rubbed lightly, it comes out very smooth and consistant looking.
    The harder it's rubbed in, the grainier the wood comes out. Any
    imperities can be hidden.
    
    Any one else tried it?
    

    Isn't the cost of shoe polish pretty high on a $/ounce basis?  How much
    did you use to do all of your woodwork?  I'm assuming your talking
    about the liquid stuff which seems to be in the $1.00/ounce range.
    
    Bob

    When you use the Kiwi liquid polish to stain your house, you save a
    bundle on brushes, as well. Each bottle comes with a little applicator.

    Takes a while...

    
      This is the wax in a can...you know, the standard round can.
      Applied with a soft cloth and wipe excess off with a clean
      soft towel. Becomes very smooth.
    
      Price was $1.99 per large can...and I did seven rooms worth
      of ceiling trim and window/door moldings. I estimate a second,
      maybe a third can to finish baseboads. Maybe two cans for kitchen
      cabs. Yes, I am going to use it everywhere...but DO NOT attempt
      to varnish anything with this wax base on it. It will not take
      to the wood and will just peal off. Anything else that comes in
      contact with it, wipes right off with no stain. I even pored water
      on my picture window (#2 pine-very soft wood) sill and let it sit 
      for a half hour. Wiped right off. Wood didn't absorb any off it.
      Didn't even swell from it. No stain either, which was what I wanted
      with the water from plants hitting it all the time.
    
      You would pay $20.00 a gallon for a name brand liquid stain.
      No comparison as far as the finish you get though. The wood grain
      comes out very tigery as apposed to the standard stain which from
      a distance, looks like a solid color with no detail.
    
      I've been getting comments form visitors saying how nice the woodwork
      looks. When I tell them shoe polish was responsible...well, you
      can imagine the looks I get!
                             
      Give it a try...one more thing. You can combine colors for a very
      rustick or unique shade. For instance, the dining room had dark
      walnut paneling. I complimented it's color by first, applying
      black shoe polish lighly into the soft grain. Then followed by
      the brown which was rubbed in with great gusto. The affect was
      a very dark tigery grain with a soft brown background...came out
      mint.
    
      Colors available are
      Brown-which can be rubbed on lightly or with gusto, depending
      on the shade and affect you want.
      Black-Which creats a very rustick appearance and can be used as
      a base for other colors for a very diff look. You can't get this
      from a can of liquid stain. 
      Tan-Never used it but will most likely be unnotices, but could
      be good if you want to preserve a natural hard wood
      Cordivan- Again, never tryed.
      Oxblood-Close to cordivan which is a reddish color, not to be
      confused with a redwood stain though.
      
      Not sure how many more colors there are, but seems like colors are
      limited to what the store thinks is the most common. 
      Put it this way, think of all the diff. color shoes and leather
      coats there are out today...I think the colors are pretty much
      unlimited.
               

    I have an old desk to refinish.  Have you tried shoe polish on
    furniture?
    
    Bo

	RE:.4
	It's been used on furniture.  The most common application I've seen
	is on older or new furniture in an attempt to make it look older.
	This trick is sometimes used by less scrupulous (sp) "antique
	dealers" to hide mends/repairs, another note.  To answer your question
	yes you can use it on furniture with some rather pleasing results.
	Keep in mind the warning mentioned earlier, you will not be able to
	apply a conventional finish, polyurethanes, varnishes, etc. once 
	applied.  I'm not sure if you could remove the effects once applied, 
	perhaps	someone else has that answer.  There are some very helpful
	refinishing suggestions in the Woodworking Notes file you may to
	review.

Good Luck
Frank

    
        Yes it can be removed, but is as difficult to remove from wood
        as a hand rubbed wax would be. Sand paper clogs very easily.
        Never new if there was a wax remover available for wood finishes.
     
        Anyone now if there is such a product to remove wax? If so,
        should remove the wax surface form shoe polish, but will still
        require sanding to remove the stain from the grain with less
        sand paper and effort.
    

    
    
    		I haven't used show polish but I have used instant coffee
    	to stain a piece of cherry furniture.  It was an old piece I was
    	refinishing.  The surface was cherry veneer and someone has sanded
    	down below the veneer making a white spot that I needed to cover
    	up. I put a very small mixture of instant coffee and a drop of
    	water on the spot and let it set.  It stained it just right!
    	This was a tip from an old furniture maker.
    
    

    
    
    
     I have also used shoe polish to mask scratches in furn., but never
     the instant coffee trick...What brand? Decaff w/ cream? Only kidden'
     I'll keep that in mind.
    

    Anyone heard of "McGrevor" or "McGellan"
    urethane?  That's what my prospective sanders
    use.  Anyone have experience with "AMAZING FLOORS"
    of Brighton?
    
    Thanks,
    Dean

If "Amazing Floors" is a floor refinishing company, please take any discussion 
of them to note 2010.

Thanks,
Paul

    
    It works great but so does a paint roller. You do however get
    "spitting" with a roller if you roll it to fast. The one for the
    corners and the windows would be all that one might need.
    
    ......I'm workin for ABSOLUTLY nothin here mate...$39.99......8^)
    I don't know of anyone who does,,,,,do you????
    

    Technology has come to painting.  You'll find those paint pads in
    just about any paint or building supply store now.  My local
    Benjamin Moore outlet carries them in stock.
    
    pbm
    

re                     <<< Note 3358.0 by NEBVAX::MARCHAND >>>
                               -< EURO PAINTER >-

     I don't know. It does look good, on that 30 minute advertisement they run
   on cable, made to look like some sort of variety show.

     I'd spring for the 40 bucks if not for one troubling question:  
   When you need replacement painting pads, how would you get them?  I've never
   seen this product of regular supply stores.

    Steve
        

    From what I could see on the TV, they look identical to the
    paint pads that have been around for years. 
    
    What do you think?
    
    	Steve

    I'll let you know how it is when mine comes in.  Hey, somebody had
    to order it so people in this conference can find out how it works.
    :^)
    
    Chris D.

    
    My husband is looking for a place in the area (we live in Maynard
    and work in Marlboro) that sells white marine paint in a quart or
    gallon size.   We've already checked out Spags (they had red, green
    etc but no white), Sears in Framingham (who had it less than 6
    months ago) and called around to both paint stores and boat stores 
    in the area with no luck.
    
    We are the proud owners of an older duplex that has windows in
    the bathroom showers!    We tested out the marine paint theory on
    the rental side between tenants and it really worked well.  Well,
    our window now needs a new coat and we can't find any marine paint!
    AAAUUUGGGHHH!
    
    If you have any ideas of where we could get some white marine paint,
    I'd really appreciate your help!
    
    Thanks!
    
    Kathy Cuddy
    DTN 291-7375

    Try BOAT/US  in  Waltham  (on  Rte.  60 near the Belmont line). If
    they're  out  of  stock,  they  also have a catalog to order from.
    Failing  that, try Defender Industries in New Rochelle, NY (A good
    marine  mail order firm) I don't have their catalog handy, but I'm
    sure they're in the phone book.

--David

    Try Bliss Marine in DEDHAM just south of Rt.1 and 128 intersection.
    
    Paul

Or the BLISS Marine in Woburn off 128, I know they sell it, call ahead to see if
they have any in stock.

Steve

    
    
    I forget the name of the place but there is a big marie supply place
    and boat yard on route 20. It is right in the area of
    Millbury/Shrewsbury town lines. 

    
    
      rep -1
    
      That place is MARINE USA and just down the road is GAUCH BROTHERS.
    Both are good size marine centers.

    Thanks for all your replies!   Gauch Bros. (which was closest to
    work) had the paint we were looking for! 
    
    KKC

    Jamestown Marine in Jamestown RI has some of the best prices although
    certain types of paint cannot be ups shipped because of the fire
    hazard.
    
    john

Previous notes refer to red blotches forming under clear stain with
red cedar siding.  Someone says this is due to the red dye in the wood.
Other people have not had any such problem. 

This makes me suspect that the red blotches are due, not to any naturally
occurring dye, but rather to a red dye the manufacturer adds to make the
wood look more red.  Unheard of?  Not at all.  My parents once got a
"redwood picnic table" that was indeed a nice red color.  It was so red
that the color came off on my hands while trying to put it together.

Just one more example of why we need codes.  What buyer would think to ask
if the wood had been dyed in a way that would interfere with staining it?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Anyone know anyplace that carries powdered water/analine stains, the
    closer to the Marlboro area, the better?  Everyplace I check only
    carries the ubiquitous minwax stuff, which I find really doesn't
    penetrate as well as I'd like.  I know that Constantine's carries it,
    but I'd rather not have to start ordering it through the mail.  Thanks.
    
    					jb

    Woodcraft in Woburn, MA (not real close to Marlboro) carries them,
    along with the alcohol based Non Grain Raising dyes (which I prefer).
    
    Bob

    Thanks - not REAL close, but closer than the bronx!
    
    						joe

    Johnson Paint on Newbury Street in Boston also has it. Not close,
    but you can order it over the phone and they ship quickly.
    
    JPR
    

    I don't mean to sound silly, but RIT dye (for cloths) says on it it can
    be used for staining wood.  It's cheap, and water soluble, in any case.
    And there are a lot of  colors  available in RIT dye that are not found
    in nature!
    
    Regard,
    gjd
    

    
    
    My girlfriend and I are refinishing a cedar chest and after stripping
    the polyeurethane finish, we discovered that is had a veneer
    finish.
    
    Note #1961 talks about veneer but nothing was mentioned about 
    using staining on it.
    
    Can veneer be stained?..and if so what kind should be used?
    
    Thanks in Advance
    
    Regards
    
    Ken Wheeler
    

    Most furniture today is veneer.   Veneer is just thin (good) wood
    bonded to less expensive wood.  But it's still wood, so you can stain it, 
    just like you would if it were solid.
    
    					- Vick

    Also see MOMAX1::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE.  There is a note about Veneer,
    what it is, its origin, how to use and repair it, etc.  Particularly if
    you are refinishing furniture, there is a dedicated readership to
    values of old furniture and the what to do/not do to keep its value.

    Hit keypad 7 to add MOMAX1::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE to your notebook.

    
    Could someone please post some first hand experience with pine
    clapboards?.  I know that cedar is much better, but at half the
    price pine is a serious consideration.  It would be painted BTW.
              
    Thanks,
    Mark
    

    
    	Hi,
    
    		I have pine clapboards on my house. And they are very
    	labor intensive when it comes to upkeep. Pine is very unstable
    	and tends to cup, warp, twist and pull all of the nails out
    	of the clapboards. I have been renailing the siding with Maize
    	nails (galvanized ring nails) which hold a little better that
    	just using galvanized hot dipped nails.
    
    		If I had a chance I would not use pine clapboards again.
    	I personally feel that cedar is a much better option and well
    	worth the difference in price. The pine does not look so inexpensive
    	after renailing and considering my labor. 
                                                   
    		By the way, my siding is covered with Cabots solid body
    	stain, which I have been very pleased with.
    
    	PS. Pine also will rot a lot quicker than cedar if there happens
    	to be a spot that does not dry out thoroughly.
    
    		My .02 cents worth
        
    	PL
    	

      I add "ditto" to .13. Our pine claboards are finished with Olympic
      717 transparent staing.  717 is a color number; I forget the name.
      The  parts  that  are in direct sun seem to need re-staining about
      every second year; three years is streching things.  And  BOY,  do
      they soak up stain!
      
      When  we  next  re-stain  -- probably no later than this fall -- I
      plan to mix some Thompson's Waterseal with the stain. We'll see if
      it helps.

  Somebody has to disagree, right?

  My preference is white spruce, white pine, red cedar. Why? I've seen old
houses with their original spruce and pine clapboards still going strong
after 200 (+/-) years of weather. Besides, spruce and pine don't split as
easily as cedar.

  Having said that, I did my house in cedar as the closest supplier of
my preference is located north of the White Mountains and the shipping
costs were prohibitive. :^(

  Patrick

    Mix Thompson's with (name a brand) stain?  Why not just get a stain
    with a built-in weatherseal?
    
    I stained my house last summer with Olympic Weatherscreen(?) Solid
    stain, and the water beads up on it as does on my car with a fresh coat
    of wax on the surface.  I'm pretty sure that this "weatherscreen"
    (sorry, I forget if this is the proper term, but I think it is) formula
    come in the semi-transparent stains also......
    
    John

>    Mix Thompson's with (name a brand) stain?  Why not just get a stain
>    with a built-in weatherseal?
    
      A  reasonable  question.   The  answer is that we want to keep the
      existing color and this seems like the easiest way to get a match.

    As an off shoot of another discussion, the technique of "staining" oak
    and other hardwoods containing Tannic Acid or Tannin using ammonia
    came up.  I have moved those notes here to allow it to be found again
    in the future.
    
    Using ammonia to "stain" oak is also discussed in
    ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE.  This was a common method of finishing furniture
    between 1890 and 1930.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add MOMAX1::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE to your notebook.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA2:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 1559.40        sanding floors, how big a job is it?????            40 of 44
HKFINN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)"          13 lines  21-MAY-1990 10:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re: .38
    
    I think the problem you had with the ammonia on the oak was due
    to a chemical reaction between the ammonia and the oak wood, not
    the fact that stain soaked into the wood.  Ammonia will darken
    some woods, and especially oak.
    I read something a while ago that mentioned this; some
    cabinetmakers had to build some additional oak platforms, desks,
    etc. for a courtroom,  I think, and they had to match the aged look
    of the existing oak in the room.  They got some industrial-strength
    ammonia, set it around in pans on the floor, sealed the room up
    completely tight, and left it for a day or two.  When they reopened
    the room, the new oak was "aged" to match the old.
================================================================================
Note 1559.41        sanding floors, how big a job is it?????            41 of 44
DOCTP::REINSCHMIDT "Marlene, TAY1-2/C3, DTN 227-4466" 8 lines  21-MAY-1990 11:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What .38 describes is a technique called fumed oak that was employed
    extensively in the 1910s in craftsman-style houses.  You can read about
    it in any of the Dover Publications reprints of Gustave Stickley's
    books on craftsman home design.
    
    Sorry for the digression.
    
    	Marlene
================================================================================
Note 1559.42        sanding floors, how big a job is it?????            42 of 44
CARTUN::VHAMBURGER "Disasterizing with your mind"    20 lines  21-MAY-1990 11:06
                    -< Ammonia is a natural stain for oak >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       <<< Note 1559.40 by HKFINN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)" >>>

    
>    I think the problem you had with the ammonia on the oak was due
>    to a chemical reaction between the ammonia and the oak wood, not

>    cabinetmakers had to build some additional oak platforms, desks,
>    etc. for a courtroom,  I think, and they had to match the aged look
>    of the existing oak in the room.  They got some industrial-strength

    Steve is absolutely correct. Ammonia is a good coloring agent for oak 
due to the reaction between ammonia and the tannin in the oak.

    The story Steve mentions is from Fine Woodworking about a French bank. 
The color was all wrong and had to be darkened. Two days of ammonia being 
boiled in the sealed room brought the bank to the correct shade of brown.
You can imagine what it would be like reopening the room after that 
treatment!

    Vic H
================================================================================
Note 1559.43        sanding floors, how big a job is it?????            43 of 44
ALIEN::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both"  11 lines  21-MAY-1990 11:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    The story Steve mentions is from Fine Woodworking about a French bank. 
> The color was all wrong and had to be darkened. Two days of ammonia being 
> boiled in the sealed room brought the bank to the correct shade of brown.

I remember that story.  It was written by George Frank, who is now about 80 and 
one of the current world's experts on wood finishing.  It happened when he was 
an apprentice.  He had just read about the ammonia technique in a book, and 
suggested it when his boss was at his wit's end.  As I remember, his boss gave 
him a huge bonus and told him to take a couple week's vacation.

paul
================================================================================
Note 1559.44        sanding floors, how big a job is it?????            44 of 44
MVDS02::LOCKRIDGE "Artificial Insanity"               9 lines  21-MAY-1990 12:15
                            -< re:.40 -.43 Ah HA! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re:.40 -.43
    
    Thanks for the information.  That explains the problem.  Now that I
    think about it, it didn't make sense that shellac removed with alcohol
    didn't darken the wood like ammonia did.
    
    Oh well, I'll know better next time.
    
    -Bob

    Depending what piment your attempting to obtain. Amonia will burn and 
    darken open pours woods such as oak. So if that is what you
    want????.... If you want a light almost pickled appearance, try azalic
    acid. It can be found in almost any h/w store. A light finish is
    obtainable by mixing 1 part hot! water to 1 part acid and slowly
    flowing over the piece. After applying make sure to hose off with cold
    water. Bleach will give some of the same results although a blotchy
    finish is sometimes unavoidable. Dont worry if the gran of the wood is
    raised, this is normal and with drying time and good prep (sanding)
    work it should go.
    

    In keeping with the theme of unnatural stains. Have you ever wanted
    to get that mellowed dark cherry color that only time and sunlight
    will give you? Try staining cherry with a lie and water solution.
    The stronger the solution the darker the color(to an extent of course).
    This is a one time shot. You can't get it any darker wetting it
    again. It looks blotchy at first but dries evenly. It may be dark
    but when you sand the raised grain you'll be all set. Try it on
    a scrap of the finished product because this is far from an exact
    science. Your color will vary from piece to piece. I first read
    about this in an article in Fine Woodworking about 3 or 4 years
    ago. It's worked fine for me  several times. 

re .3:

Be careful with lye, it's strong stuff!

-Mike

Drano is lye.

    Hi,
    
         Does anyone know how long stain, in its original unopened
    containers, lasts?
    
         I have about 10 gallons of oil-based, semi-solid exterior stain 
    that are about two years old.  These gallons have been stored in the 
    house, so they were never subjected to freezing or extreme heat.  I no
    longer have a use for these, as we have had the garage vinyl-sided, and
    would like to sell them, but I don't want to sell anything that's bad;
    I'll throw them away in that case.
    
         Any ideas?  Thanks!
    
    			    		- Andrea

    Andrea,
    
    I don't know if you can judge from this, since we're talking a
    different type of stain, but I had picked up 12 gallons of
    semi-transparent Cuprinol  stain on sale, and didn't get around to
    using it for approx 16 months. Upon opening the cans, we found that the
    pigment had settled to the bottom, and we had to be very thorough in
    mixing it prior to use. I  noticed that the cans, although they were
    from the same color lot, yielded slightly different shades when
    applied. I assume this was due to the lack of consistency in our
    mixing.
    
    Prior to this, I had never used stain before, so I can't say for sure
    whether the results were due to the age of the stain, or whether the
    results are typical for the type of job we were doing. (It was a
    colonial  blue stain being applied on rough sawn lumber over a
    5-year-old weathered  grey stain). In any event, as much as I like a
    good bargain, I don't think I'd ever buy my stain so far in advance again.
    
    Good luck...

    If stored in the original, unopened cans, the stain will certainly be
    good after 2 years.  I've used all types of stains and paints after
    they've been hanging around much longer than that, with no problems. 
    If any of the cans were opened, and not sealed tightly, you may have
    some problems.
    
    As -.1 noted, the pigment will all be at the bottom, and it will take
    lots of mixing.  You can get a paint-stirring device to use in an
    electric drill that will make it easier to mix, or you can make your
    own out of a twisted clothes hanger, metal rods, etc.
    
    Some stains settle out quickly during use, and you can get color
    variations from one can to the next.  Try this to minimize the effects:
    
    	Open a new can when the one you're using is half empty, mix well,
    	pour some "new" stain into the "old" can, and mix well again.
    
    or:	Get a 5-gallon bucket, and mix a few cans of stain together at a
    	time.  Keep adding new stain a little at a time.  And keep mixing!
    
    BTW, if anyone needs some practice doing this, I'm in the middle of
    staining my house, and am willing to give free lessons ;^)
    
    /Don
    one IO

.2 says it all.  I have some solid stain in my garage, purchased three
years ago, which I just used on a section of my fence.  The two cans
had been opened and properly sealed after use.  They were also subjected
to freezing over two winters.  After a good stirring, the stain was fine.
I would suggest you price the stain you wish to sell at a fair price
and notify prospective buyers how old the stain is and offer a limited
warranty.

Douglas

The pigments probably settled to the bottom within a few days of purchase, 
certainly within a week or two.  The shaking machines at paint stores are really
only good if you're going to paint the same day, or perhaps the next.  They
never eliminate the job of stirring the paint or stain, they shorten the job.

It takes me about a half-hour to properly stir a can of oil based stain, using
a paddle attachment on a drill.  It's tedious and boring, but as the 
experience in .1 indicates, it makes a difference.

   Gary

    Re: .2,.3,.4
    
    I'm glad to read that it was probably my mixing technique and *not*
    the age of the stain that caused my problems, since Ann & Hope has
    Cuprinol and Olympic stains on sale this week. I'll need to restain
    in a couple of years, so I can stock up now...;^)
    
    Freddie

    Hi,
    
         Thank you for all of the replies.  Sounds like the stain *should*
    be okay; I'll probably do as (.3?) suggests and give some kind of
    warranty.
    
    					- Andrea  

    I brought a rustproofing product with me from the UK called WAXOYL. It
    suggests thinning with 'white spirit', aka 'Turpentine Substitute' aka
    'Turp-Subs'.
    
    The question is... what is the equavalent of white-spirit/turp-subs
    here in the US, and where would I go to buy some ?.
    
    
    

    
    Varsol aka mineral spirits .... (I presume standard oil paint
    thinner in the US is known as Varsol ?)
    
    Otherwise, it is the standard thinner used for alkyd / oil based
    paints.  If I remember correctly there is a less smelly version
    of Varsol also available ... that should work too.
    
    Stuart

>    Varsol aka mineral spirits .... (I presume standard oil paint
>    thinner in the US is known as Varsol ?)

    Never heard of it.

    Varsol is the name of a cleaning fluid used in parts washer such as you
    find in a  Gas  station  or  Auto repair shop.  Its less flammable then
    kerosene, supposedly.  It's possible it is really mineral spirits but I
    don't know.
    
    gjd

    OK ... that's the name that has become generic here in Canada ...
    you know ... like vacuum cleaners are Hoovers or Electroluxes.
    
    Anyway ... it is mineral spirits ... the stuff you use for thining
    oil base paint and cleaning up brushes etc.  The regular stuff is
    real smelly, but there is a "not so smelly" type too ... anyway
    ANY of that stuff is White Spirit.
    
    Remember you used to use turpentine to thin oil base paints ...
    but genuine turpentine is *VERY* expensive ... so in England
    they call the substitute "Turpentine substitute"!  Novel name huh ?
    Or white spirit ... because it is a clear mineral spirit as opposed
    to regular coloured mineral spirits ... which were used for cleaning.
    
    Does that help ?
    
    Stuart

    Thanks for the help. I'm going shopping looking for clear mineral
    spirits as used to thin oil based paints. 
    
    As a side question, is WAXOYL distributed in Canada ?. It isnt sold in the 
    US but I hadnt thought of checking for a Canadian distributer. It is
    *the* best rust inhibiter/proofer for old cars that I've ever come accross.

    I've heard of it used, but never seen it sold anywhere that I frequent
    regularly (like the best hardware / generic car parts dealer Canadian
    Tire!)
    4
    Stuart

    
    I would like to stain some 8-in horizontal T&G pine in the
    "white-washed" or bleached style (i.e. country).  Does anyone 
    know how to do this properly?  Also, I believe that Minwax
    has a line of stains out now that are supposed to achieve this
    look.   I'm looking for personal experiences with these stains.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Carol
    

    I forgot to add....the pine is new so I am not looking for advice
    on how to cover another color, etc.    I have searched on "stain"
    "bleach", and "white" and can't find this covered anywhere.
    

    
     I am not sure what you are looking for but I have stained my knotty
    pine walls white. The stain is a interior stain-wax made by Cabots.
    The stain # is 0911. Its birch white. I had to order it because nobody
    seemed to carry it around here (marlboro ma.)
    
    		Wayne

    re: .2
    
    I don't want the walls to be white.   I really don't know how to explain
    the bleached pine look - it's available in country-style furniture.
    I suspect if you've seen it, you'll know what I'm talking about.
    

    One way to achieve what I believe you are looking for is to wipe on
    and off a white exterior paint ... this will leave pigment in the
    wood grain giving it a slightly white bleached appearance.  Try it
    on a scrap piece of pine and some old paint and see if that is the
    effect you are looking for.
    
    With some woods, you may have to raise the grain slightly before
    applying ... with hardwoods sandblasting is sometimes used ... but
    for softwoods, there are some chemicals that will raise grain, or
    you could take some medium to coarse sandpaper to open the grain a bit.
    Apply the finish and then sand back smooth.
    
    Stuart

There are a few notes that may be related and be of help, but I'm  not sure any
of them is really what you're looking for.  Notes 508 and 1466 talk about 
bleaching wood, but that's wood that is already stained too dark.  Notes 425,
527 and 2366 are about weathering stains.

Paul

    Yield House advertised in their catelog a type of coating that creates
    that white/bleached look to their pine.  I no longer have a catelog
    handy, maybe someone could list the number, or has a catelog.
    
    

    Check out note 3334.  That note discusses the finish you are describing
    but for floors.  The techniques, problems, results should be the same
    for non-floor surfaces also.  

    Well, there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who is able to 
    give me step-by-step instructions (I'm a beginner!).  None of
    the pointers are pertinent.
    
    I had seen a brief description in a magazine on how to achieve this
    finish and didn't think to clip it out at the time.   I believe
    that a previous noter was on the track with the application and
    subsequent removal of white paint.   Is the white paint to be
    applied with a brush or a rag?    I suspect coverage isn't critical 
    so a rag will probably do.
    
    Also, should I put a coat of satin polyurethane after I'm done
    with the white-washing?   This sounds like quite a job....
    No firsthand experience with the MinWax Frost (I think that's
    what it's called) line?
    
    Carol

    I have seen this done ... they did indeed use a rag becuase what you
    are aiming for is effect rather than coverage.  To lift the grain a 
    bit, I believe they swabbed the surface with a bit of water then
    allowed it to thoroughly dry.  Afterwards a coat or two of clear urethane
    varnish should finish it nicely, unless it is outdoors ..
    
    Best thing to do is to take a smaple of your wood ... a bit of oil
    based paint (because you want the pigment drawn into the wood) and
    experiment.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Stuart

    Never done it but have thought about it several times.  Paint white,
    wipe off excess with a rag, let dry, apply clear finish overtop.  It
    can't be that difficult.  I agree, take a scrap of the wood you are
    going to use and dry a test.  If you don't like the results, change
    your technique.

    We bought a "pickling stain" that we used on windows and some trim
    in our house. I'll find the brand and post it in here. I believe
    it was Benjamin Moore and the person in the paint store said it
    had at one time been discontinued but was available again.
    
    John H.
    

I have, in the past, bleached wood, pine, oak using oxalic acid. Does a good
job of bleaching but does tend to raise the grain, so you need to lightly
sand after application before final finish.

Bob    

     White vs Bleached? The stain-wax can be put on to meet your degree of
    color. It does not hide the wood as a paint would. All grain and
    texture is still there. Just one or two coats look bleached to me..
    
    		Wayne

    To follow up on this:
    
    We ended up using the Min-Wax product called "Wood Sheens" in the
    dove white color.   We applied it with a rag.  One coat gave the
    bleached effect (actually just removed the yellow look of pine)
    I was looking for even tho' the directions called for two coats.  This
    product was supposed to be a sealer as well - which is probably why
    they recommend two coats.   We sealed with two coats of satin polyu.
    
    Looks great!
    
    carol/

    
    	I'm going to redo my pool [billiards] stick.  I sanded both
    	pieces yesterday, and now's the time to paint/stain.  I want
    	to do the bottom portion of the stick in black ... the top
    	doesn't matter right now.
    
    	#1 - Do I use paint or stain?  The stick is wood.
    
    	#2 - How do I apply the paint/stain?  My father suggested a 
    	     rag.  Will that work well?
    
    	Thanks for any info.
    
    							GTI
    

    You might have better luck in Woodworking_and_Tools, but here goes.
    
    I'd spray it.  Get a can of black lacquer spray paint and a can of the
    recommended primer (if needed).  Spray a lot of thin coats, and rub it 
    out with fine steel wool and auto rubbing compound.
    
    You could also use a black analine or alcohol based dye (not stain). 
    Then use either a penetrating oil (eg Watco) that's rubbed in, or a
    spray varnish or lacquer to finish it off.
    
    Bob

    
    	OK, I'm off tonight to buy some primer/paint.  I guess the
    	primer color doesn't matter much, since the black will cover
    	it easily ... probably go with a gray or something.
    
    	I sanded the stick Sunday afternoon, and then took it to Men-
    	don to play in a tournament Tuesday night.  A kid looks over
    	and says "Cool stick".  I looked at him funny and said, "Ummm,
    	I sanded it down and I'm going to redo it ... it will look good
    	when I'm done".  And he replied "Really?  It looks like marble
    	or something".
    
    	For a few minutes I was debating on whether to leave it "blotchy"
    	and forget refinishing it!!
    
    							GTI
    

    
    	Well, I did a couple layers of gray primer ... came out good.
    	Then I did a couple layers of gloss black, and they came out
    	good.
    
    	THEN, I put the 3rd coat of black on ... during the rainstorm
    	we had a couple weeks ago Saturday, and I left the stick in the
    	cellar to dry.  Leaning against the roll-up door.
    
    	The moist air was blowing through all night, and clouded the
    	outer coat.  What an idiot I am!!
    
    	I'm going to put another coat on this week.
    
    							GTI
    

    I've found that the best surface for the shaft end of the stick is no
    surface at all.  The most effective way of getting the shaft as
    friction-free as possible is to sand all the lacquer and paint off
    completely, followed by rubbing with steel wool.  I keep steel wool in
    the carrying case and use it constantly.
    
    For my taste, lacquer or paint causes too much friction, especially
    when there's little humidity in the air.  
    
    Jim

    
    	RE: .36
    
    	Bingo!!  I painted the bottom of the stick [which I haven't
    	redone yet], and left the shaft end alone after I sanded it.
    	I love the feel of it ... glides over my fingers nice and
    	smoothly.  I'm going to leave the shaft as is.
    
    							GTI
    
    

[I've found references to polyurethane in about ten zillion notes, but in 
reference to specific things floors, furniture, etc. If I can be indulged, 
I would like to start a note on just poly.  If not, I suppose that I'll ask
my question about windows in the hardwood floor note. (#2) :) ]


There are two basic types of polyurethane: solvent based, and the newer water 
based.  

When the windows went into my house I put one coat of solvent based 
poly on them to protect them through construction.  Now they have been cased 
and are ready for the additional finish coats.

I would like to use the water based poly, because it is quick drying and less 
toxic in general.

My question is this:  Can the water based poly by applied on top of the solvent 
based poly. 

Thanks,
andy

    Yes, you can use the water based stuff over old finishes, including
    solvent based polyurethane.  BUT, you will have to sand the old finish
    to rough it up enough to provide a way for the new finish to adhere. If
    you don't, the stuff will come off in sheets.  Very few things will
    stick to cured polyurethane.
    
    BTW, you would have to sand no matter what kind of finish you were
    putting over the poly, even if were more of the same kind.
    
    There are also chemical "sandpaper" or deglossers that will do the same
    thing.  I haven't found them to be a great time saver, however.
    
    Bob

    
    Yup, no problem. Works fine.
    
    Mike

Keeping on the sanding for a bit.  I stained a door.  I then put a coat of poly
on and let it dry for 4-5 hours.  Well, I forgot to sand the door before putting
the next coat of poly on.  What will this do?  It seems to look fine.  Will I
have problems later on? 

Also, can I use #0000 steel wool to do the sanding?  Or do I have to use 
something like #220 sandpaper?  How do I clean up the dust completely?

Ed..

    
    Ed,
    
    You shouldn't have a problem. If you need another coat or it's too
    rough you should just sand a little harder. 
    
    I use 000-0000 steelwool all the time. I never use sandpaper for
    sanding between coats. BTW, and equivelent sandpaper to #0000 is
    something like #400.
    
    Mike

    To remove all the dust and dirt after sanding, wipe as clean as
    possible.  Then use a tack cloth to remove the rest.  Tack cloth is
    just guaze or cheese cloth soaked with varnish and the allowed to
    partially dry, usually kept in a plastic bag to keep it from drying
    completey.  The tacky varnish picks up all remaining dirt and dust.
    
    Most paint stores should have them ready made for very little money.

    re: .3
    
    If you paint a second coat within some amount of time (4 hours sounds
    abount right) you don't have to sand between coats.
    
    Willie
    

    I went to the store laast week with all intentions of buying a 
    water based poly. I couldn't believe that on a gallon, the water
    based was 100% more than the solvent based. I bought the solvent and
    some extra thinner to clean the brush. 
    
    Why is the water base so much more expensive?  

    
    My immediate thought on this is that it's more expensive because the
    manufacturers know that there are lots of people out there who will
    appreciate the easiness of water cleanup.
    
    CQ

The water-based technology is new, and is still more expensive to make,
though not by the amount of the markup.  Still, soon you may not have
a choice, as regulations on the volatile components of paints and other
products will push the solvent-based products off the market.

				Steve

    You were ripped off, however the observations in .8 may be accurate.
    I bought a gallon of the water based stuff a coupla months ago, it was
    a coupla dollars more expensive than the oil based stuff by the same
    manufacturer. (maybe 22 vs 20 or somesuch)
    

re: .3

>>  Also, can I use #0000 steel wool to do the sanding?  Or do I have to use 
>>  something like #220 sandpaper?  How do I clean up the dust completely?

 The instructions on the container of water-based poly that I bought specify 
that you NOT use steel wool, since it will rust! I suppose if you use a tack 
cloth and remove all of the steel fibers, then it shouldn't be a problem, but I 
stuck with a fine-grit sandpaper anyway. BTW, I really like the water-based 
stuff. My workshop is in my cellar, and fumes are a problem do to adjacency of 
living space. The water-based poly has almost NO smell at all, and cleanup is a 
breeze.

 /paul

I always precede the tack cloth with a magnet when I've been using steel wool.
I'[m not sure it helps, but it always picks up a good deal of steel wool.

What about hardness? Is the water based stuff as hard a surface as the 
solvent poly? Harder? 
	Last summer I finished a pine table with a solvent based 
oil/poly mixture (it was supposed to be better suited to "hand rubbing" the 
coats on). The surface is softer than I'd like: it shows marks when you 
write on a piece of paper! I'd like to add a coat(s) of something 
harder.

	Dave

The "hardness" of a finish is a measure of its abrasion and scratch resistance,
not its dent resistance.  No finish will keep pine (soft pine) from marring, 
except perhaps the epoxy finishes that are built up to about 1/4" thick.  The 
thin film of a normal finish is simply not capable of resisting denting 
pressure, no matter how hard it is.  Aluminum is relatively hard, but would you
expect a sheet of aluminum foil to prevent your table from denting?  Most
finishes are not much thicker than foil.  It is the wood underneath that must 
resist denting, and pine is just too soft to do it adequately.

Part of the decision to make a project out of pine is the decision to have it
look dented.  It's just the nature of the wood.

Paul

I had my floors refinished with water-based poly (at $60 a gallon) which
the contractor said was the same finish that went into museums and other 
public buildings.

                    VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm)

	I received a sample of this new product a couple of months ago... it
is GREAT! I have used other Varathane products (see note 2.134) on my new
hardwood floor, but if they had this product last year, I know I would have
used it.... For a free product brochure, (maybe they will send you a sample) 
call the Flecto Co. at 1-800-6-FLECTO (1-800-635-3286) I have not checked on 
the $$ price, but anything with all these features is worth it!

Below are some highlights of the product from their brochure:

	o VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm) transparent IPN 
	  (Interpenetrating Polymer Networks) This new technology results in a
	  coating that's clearer and tougher than any polyurethane, any 
	  lacquer, or any any varnish.


		1. Twice the durability of polyurethanes, two coats provides
		   more abrasion resistance than three coats of polyurethane.

		2. Never turns yellow (I will vouch for this! wife stenciled a 
	           white ceramic floor tile in the kitchen, and I protected 
	           it with this, looks great and is holding up super...)

		3. Water clean up!! (a PLUS)

		4. Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!

		5. Virtually ODORLESS!!!! (yep, no poly (or anything) smell 
	           at all! No one knew that I was even using the product in a
	           closed house)

		6. Dries in 1 hour! So you can recoat in 1 hour, do the
	           floors, etc without running everyone out of the house!!!

		7. Finish comes in Gloss, Semi-Gloss and Satin....

    i usually use a mix of tung oil and poly .. does anyone know if 
    you can still mix the oil with these new water based poly ??
    
    
    thanks

>  ...can still mix the oil with these new water based poly ??
                        ^^^                ^^^^^
    
      Where I come from OIL and WATER don't mix.  I doubt that the water
      used in water based poly is different.

I looked through all the notes on interior painting but didn't see anything on
colorwashing, specifically the types of brushes to use...

Colorwashing involves painting a base coat (usually white or cream) then brush-
ing on a thinned (watery) paint or glaze with a wide-bristled brush in criss-
crossing strokes to end up with a water-color look...

So, does anyone have any experience with this technique?  I've read about it
in books, but want to use a watered-down latex for the colorwash (over white
latex) instead of dealing with mixing glazes.  I'm not sure of the proportion
of water to pait to use, however, so if you've done this before, please advise.

Also, where is a good place to get specialty brushes (I've asked at Sears and
Grossman's with no luck) at reasonable prices (in the Nashua, NH to Burlington,
MA strip)?  Is there a name for this type of brush so I'll know what to ask
for?  Is only one brush needed, or is another one required to "soften" the
effect of the wash?

Thanks for any input you can provide,

-Cori

p.s. I've done sponge-painting before, using all latex paints, with excellent
results, which is why I feel it shouldn't be a problem for this technique...

    I've done a fair amount of this type of work, but use primarily the
    oil-based paints and glazes. You can do this with latex, but due to the
    fast drying time of the latex, you will not have the leeway to "soften"
    areas of color, and may wind up with some hard edges or splotchiness.
    
    The books "Paint Magic" and it's sequel, by Jocasta Innes are available
    in most bookstores, and are good basic books for this.  I buy most of
    my brushes and supplies at Johnson Paint, on Newbury St. in Boston
    (across the street from Tower Records). It's worth a trip just to see
    some of the stuff available.
    
    
    Joseph
    

Well, I just called Johnson Paint on Newbury St. and got most of the answers
I wanted - they were very helpful.  Here's the story:

Brushes:

  o  Any type of brush to wash on the color, but the wide ones with blunt-cut
     edges work best

  o  To "soften" the effect, use either a "badger blender" ($38!) or a goat-hair
     blender ($18).

Paint:

  o  Doable with latex, although he agreed that it dries quickly so best to
     work in small areas

  o  Proportion of water to paint depends on the desired intensity of color -
     could use up to 1:1 ratio for very subtle effect

I've seen the Paint Magic book, but it recommended using oil-based paint and
mixing acrylic glaze, etc. which seemed too painful (complicated/expensive) to
me...

Looks like I'll just have to learn by doing (as usual with these techniques)...

Thanks for the reference,
-Cori

    There are other books around - though not as easy to find, that use
    latex (since many of these books are published in the U.K, they may
    refer to it as "emulsion").
    
    The most important part of this process is to do some samples first,
    especially when doing walls. This will let you refine the technique, as
    well as check the color. Using different color washes and glazes can
    provide some unexpected effects. When painting walls, I make a sample
    that is at least 2 x 3 feet. 
    
    Joseph
    

	Well, my eyes are very tired from reading about 2 gazillion past
	notes and I didn't find an answer to my very basic, (I hope), 
	questions.  

	We just purchased a large gambrel with cedar shakes.  The house
	is 10 years old and I can see no signs that the shakes were treated
	in any way.  First, they are mildewy.  I saw notes to clean with
	TSP and bleach.  I will be trying this soon.  My questions though
	concern staining the house.  I can't truly believe that I can make
	the shakes look good with a little cleaning and some stain.  I don't
	even know how to tell if there red or white cedar!  

	I don't really want a solid stain...I like wood and want to see
	some of it's character.  Can I use a semi-solid on shakes that
	haven't seen a brush before??  Has there been some permanent damage
	or degradation from the lack of preservative or is the nature of
	the wood my saving grace?  Is there a special primer especially for
	semi-solid stains?  

	With an untreated house this old am I going to see it suck up stain
	like crazy or will it act like "new" wood?  I really don't want to 
	buy a lot extra only to have it sitting in my basement.  

	I'd appreciate any input....

	Thanks,   Stu

    A couple of questions before I start to stain....
    
    Older house with cedar shingles that were painted white a long time
    ago.  The paint (latex, I think) is pretty shabby and chalking like
    hell.  I rented a power washer and sprayed the house, which worked 
    wonders.  Got rid of 99% of the chalking as well as a lot of loose,
    "alligatoring" paint.  Now the house looks like it's "tinted" white.
    
    Sherwin-Williams said that it's no problem to stain over what's left on
    the house.  Just to make sure, I pulled off a shingle and brought it
    in to two paint stores, who both gave me the same answer:  2 coats of
    an oil-based solid stain, and I won't have a problem.
    
    I've been checking these notes and the jury appears out.  Others have
    said that I shouldn't stain, because stain is meant to penetrate.  I've
    already bought the stain.  Can I stain over what's on there, without
    having to re-stain (or re-paint) in two years?
    
     

    Re drying time
    
    I recently repainted three rooms after several repairs to the wall
    surfaces left by the previous owner: gouges, tears, glue remains.
    It took a good five days for the surface finish to stabilize color,
    gloss, and texture after two coats of Benjamin Moore's eggshell-
    finish latex, whatever it's called.
    
    Your experience sounds normal to me.
    
    PBM
    

    My cedar clapboards have been satined 2 years ago with a
    semi-transparent stain (cedar color) made by Olympic.
    The trim is a solid color (parchment which is a cream color)
    made by Olympic.
    
    I like the stains, however the cedar color is fading.  Can
    I put a preservative like CWF over stain?  Will it bring the
    color back out?  Can I spay it on?  Is it okay if it gets
    on the solid color too?
    
    I prefer not to restain.  This is a 3700 sq ft house, two 
    story with a walk out basement.
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    

    YUP YUP YUP.... 
    
    There are some better products than CWF - try X1000 - lasts much 
    longer and gives it that nice 'honey' look.  I'd stay away from
    spraying - a 3/4 in nap roller works great.  It will discolor your
    trim, - it depends on how fussy you are about the it.  If a little 
    discolor/sheen doen't bother you then that's okay.  
    
    -Brian

    Who makes X1000?  Is it a sealer?
    
    What will it do to the trim?  Make like a shellac look on it?
    
    Bonnie

    I have built some CHERRY-WOOD bookcases and thought that a clear
    lacquer finish would look nice.  Once I got everything built and
    finished, I realize that the clear lacquor is too light, and that the
    piece will not look nice in the room.
    
    I'd like to find some way to 'darken' the bookcases (ie stain them)
    without having to go through the messy process of first stripping off
    the lacquer.
    
    Any suggestions?  Has anybody had a similar problem?  What was your
    solution, and results?
    
    /geoff bock

        How much do you want to darken them? If it isn't too much, leave
        them alone. Cherry will naturally darken with time and exposure to
        sunlight.
        
        I know of no way to stain over the varnish. You would have to sand
        or strip the finish down, stain, and then re-varnish. Next time
        check the finish on a sample before proceeding...

    As 1 said to darken you will have to strip everything off the wood.
    
    I urge you to wait. If, after some suitable period of time, -i dunno
    but would guess a year- it hasn't darkened enuf, strip, stain, and
    re-finish. Any comments on how long?
    We did our kitchen cabinets in Cherry. Wife said the natural color was
    too light. I stained them and regret it. Even tho the kitchen looks
    very nice, I would have prefered the natural darkened result.
    
    
    				herb

     While I second the suggestion of waiting for the cherry to darken on 
its own, it isn't true that you _must_ strip the clear finish off to put 
on a darker color.  I've found that with woods with variable porosity 
[oak, fir] you have to seal the wood with shellac first anyway.  Then you 
are essentially painting the wood when you apply 'stain.'  I've used this 
technique with burnt umber paint in linseed oil to duplicate gumwood finish.

    I'd wait and let the cherry do its thing.  If you want to speed
    up the process, put the piece out in the sun.  Cherry can get
    *very* dark over a number of years.

    It should be pointed out that only the _heartwood_ of cherry darkens
    with age.  In fact, it is one of the few hardwoods which do; most
    lighten upon exposure to light.
    
    Cherry is fairly dark to begin with.  Are you sure that your piece is
    not made from sapwood?  Cherry sapwood is pretty light (almost white) 
    and it will not darken much at all with age.
    
    Are you sure it's cherry?  With all due respect, it raises some doubts
    in my mind when I'm asked to believe that someone spent major dollars
    on a semi-precious and difficult to work material, yet spells it with 
    all caps and a hyphen and didn't test the finish on a scrap before 
    commiting it to the whole piece. 
    
    Al
    

    Does anyone have experience with lead varnish?  I'm considering
    buying a house that has a lot of natural woodwork.  It hasn't
    been tested yet, but there's a good chance that the varnish on
    the wood contains lead.  The owners told me that lead varnish
    is not harmful and is not subject to the same regulations as
    lead paint.  Is this true?  
    
    Thanks,
    Lisa

I've also been told that some varnish contains lead (although I thought lead
was used in pigment).  Why do you think there's a good chance that your
varnish has lead?

If it's ingested, lead varnish should be just as dangerous as lead paint.
There's probably a somewhat higher chance that a child will ingest lead
paint than lead varnish, since I've never heard of flaking varnish.
In Massachusetts, the law seems to be concerned with children chewing on
painted surfaces (not just on eating paint flakes), so I imagine the legal
situation is the same for lead varnish as for lead paint.

    Maybe I'm wrong (I'm sure it will be pointed out)...but...why would 
    there be lead in varnish? 
    
    I never heard of such a thing.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .2
    Me either.  Subject to correction, I've always had the idea that the
    "lead" in lead paint is white lead, which is used as an opaque white
    pigment.  Colors can be added, of course, to make something other than
    white paint, and I guess one could use red lead too...not sure about
    that.  But, the point is, it's all opaque paint.  I don't see how
    it could ever be used in varnish.

    Also....isn't the original varnish an animal product , like shellac
    is?
    
    Marc H.

re .3:

I think there are several lead compounds that were used for colored pigments.
Some of the "lead" tests test for heavy metals in general, which provide
other colors, and are bad for you in general.

I don't know if varnishes contain lead or not.

-Mike

My understanding is that lead was used for durability and was used in varnish as
well as paint.

If I were selling a house, I would NEVER make claims of ANY sort about lead
presence.  

Based on my experiences with lead paint inspectors, if woodwork is "natural",
that is, never painted but varnished/stained/polyurethaned, they don't 
even test it, i.e., they presume that it is lead free.  

Don't know if there is lead there, but obviously, they didn't think so.

    re: .6
    Sure, the lead is for durability; white lead paint is *GOOD* paint!
    But the point is, as far as I know lead is strictly an opaque pigment.
    I can conceive of no way that lead could ever be used in varnish.
    (But I could be wrong.... )

    Umm, sorry to say that lead was used in *both* paint and varnish.  It
    was in fact legal to sell lead paint in mass until 1978.  The lead was
    added to varnish to prevent yellowing with age. 
    
    It is very definately included in the law that governs lead (in mass at
    least), which means that any chewable surface below 5(?) feet, inside
    or outside, must be removed if any child under the age of six is living
    there.  Check out the Real Estate notes file, there is a lot of lead
    related discussion in there.  
    
    Its truly amazing what people will say.  However, it is not the sellers
    responsibility to remove it (unless they have small children there
    now).  You have the right to a lead inspection, but the results of that
    inspection have no bearing on the seller other than that you can back
    out of the sale.
    
    Good luck.

    WE recently had a lead inspection, and the stained and varnished
    hallway WAS tested.  Luckily for us it was negative, but it was tested
    nonetheless.  The stain pigments may very well have contained lead. No
    idea about straight varnish on bare wood, but if it's stained at all,
    better have it checked.  We had one room in this apartment that had a
    yellowish stain on the wood, and it had the highest lead level the
    machine could read!  And because the stain was applied to the bare
    wood, it sunk in very deeply.  All the wood had to be replaced;
    scraping would not get down deep enough.  

    leaded gasoline is not opaque.
    

And leaded glass is "crystal clear"...

Hmm.

-Mike

    My experience with Lead Paint and the inspection there of in Mass. is
    that once an inspector detects lead in a building that by law he must
    report it to the State office of someting or other and then the owner 
    has 10 days inwhich to contract with a lead abatement company to remove
    it or you are in for fines.  I don't know if a home owner has to comply
    with this 10 day deal or not but land lord sure have to. The best thing
    to do is to get a DIY test kit at a hardware store and test it
    yourself.
    Then you will know a little more and have time to plan a cource of
    action before the state sticks its BIG nose in your afairs.
    If your intent is to save the original moldings it can be very
    expensive, replacement is cheeper but never looks like the good old
    stuff.
    To listen to some lead paint inspectors and removers if you have a
    choice between lead paint or AIDS go with AIDS you have a better
    chance.
    Lead in Mass. is messy business, insurance companies are now demanding
    lead paint certificates before they will insure houses, not just for
    rental units but for regular homeowners because visiting children may
    be able to say they ate lead at your house if they test positive for
    lead poisining.
    It is best to know what you are getting into, so get the facts, and be
    careful.
    
    Paul
    

    Hi,
    
    Well, my husband and I are in our new old house, along with
    our new baby...now to tackle this house and clean it up nice...
    
    
    We are going to re-paint all the interior trim, which is flaking
    and peeling in places...what is the best way to do this? Do we
    sand first?  If so, what type grain of sand paper should we use?
    Also, before applying the paint, should we apply an undercoat of 
    some kind? 
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

RE:                  <<< Note 4563.0 by DEMON::RHODAN::DIROCCO >>>
                           -< Prep Before Painting? >-

>    We are going to re-paint all the interior trim, which is flaking
>    and peeling in places...what is the best way to do this? Do we
>    sand first?  If so, what type grain of sand paper should we use?

Scrape first, then sand - 120-150 grit.

>    Also, before applying the paint, should we apply an undercoat of 
>    some kind? 
 
No opinion.

>    Any help would be appreciated.
    
If it's an old house and you're planning to do a lot of sanding,
I suggest if you are expecting or already have young kids that you
go down to the hardware store and pick up a lead paint testing kit.

These kits are easy to use and not expensive.  If there's lead in the
paint you probably do not want to sand, because lead contaminated
paint dust can be unhealthy to breath, particularly for children.

Brian

Apply a coat of Zinnser 1-2-3 as a primer before painting.  This is a latex
primer which provides a superb paint base.

				Steve

    
    
    
    I have looked in the notes on paint and have
    been unable to find anything like this, but
    I apologize if this is a repeat and I missed
    something.
    
    The paint on the walls in some (but not all)
    rooms of my house has what look like stretch
    marks - where the paint has separated from
    itself.  It's not cracks in the plaster just
    the paint separating.  In some places the
    separation is wide enough to see underneath
    and underneath looks shiny and gold colored.
    
    I asked some paint dealers and they said that
    there were too many layers of paint and they
    were moving separately from the house.  I talked
    to the people who grew up in the house and they
    did not remember anything unusual being put on
    the walls - I have not been able to talk to
    the two owners before me.
    
    Does anyone have any idea what this might be and
    what I can do about it?  It's been suggested that
    I sand the entire top layer of paint off.....
    
    Thank you for your help.
    
    Sue Baust
    

    re.0
    I've seen this happen after a flat paint is used on a wall previously
    painted with a high gloss paint don't really have an explaination on 
    what caused it.
    
    -j
    

    Here's my dilemma: My back deck is constructed from pressure treated
    wood.  It's about 8 years old and I've been giving it a yearly
    treatment of Cuprinol clear stain preservative.  I'm not happy with
    it's looks as it has a lot of cracks and slivers etc. mostly from the
    sun I would say.  I decided to try deck enamel this coming season.  I
    bought some Benjamin Moore brand in Spags, the latex type.  However I'm 
    concerned how it will wear as the present condition of the deck almost 
    looks like bare wood.  So....on the advice of the guy in Spags, I
    bought a gallon of Moore's latex primer for the first coat.  Last week
    I decided to get another gallon of primer before starting.  This time
    another clerk waited on me and advised against the primer.  He said the
    primer expands and moves and the deck enamel would literally "peel off
    in sheets".  He claims the deck enamel will go on fine without priming. 
    I tend to agree expecially since it's been treated with clear
    preservative.  However I'm confused on who is right.  Can anyone help
    me on this?   Thanks in advance.
    
    Bob
    

    
    
    Where can I get the blades of a manual (not power) mower sharpened?
    
    

    We have Moore (I don't think latex) deck enamel throughout the
    downstairs (inside: as we await the return of reasonable stock price to
    fund hardwood flooring) of our house. It has been down for 3 years now.
    I put latex primer down first. The deck paint hasn't peeled, it has not
    even worn in the heavy traffic areas. 
    
    The application is interior so it hasn't been subject to temperature
    changes or weather like a deck would. 
    
    John H.

    .1 is a prime example of where/when this happens.  When a new payer of
    paint (doesn't have to be flat over gloss) is applied over a gloss
    paint, the new coat never really gets a chance to adhere to the old. 
    The result, as time goes by, is a shrinking of the new layer (i.e.
    stretch marks).
    
    Prior to painting over a gloss, one should either sand the surface or
    use what is commonly refered to as liquid sander.  This method actually
    allows the new paint to penetrate the gloss surface and then dry
    together as a single coat.
    
    In your case, all is not lost.  Scrape any areas where the paint is
    peeling away; prime with a good quality oil based primer and re-coat
    the surface.  I'd recommend a latex finish coat as it has more
    elasticity.
    
    This should resolve the problem.
    
    re;
    Tom

    
    Question to .2
    
    Thank you very much - I'm encouraged.  For the most part
    the paint is not peeling - there are just the separations
    that I called stretch marks.  Will the oil based primer
    fill in these separations so that it will be a smooth surface
    again?  
    
    Thanks again,
    Sue
    

    Does anyone know of anyone who rents an expandable platform 
    for high elevation painting.  
      
                        ----------
                          \    / 
                           \  /
                            \/
                            /\
                           /  \
                          /    \
                     ================       
                     ================
                     O              O
    
    Its a motorized platform on wheels, the platform moves up and
    down.
    
    

    You could call a pro-window washing business.  My friend was partners
    in one (and made a small fortune b.t.w.) and they had one of those just
    like what you pictured.  At least they could tell you where they got
    one (if they have one).
    
    Steve

    
    Hi,
    
    	I used to rent from Shaughnessy crane. Look them up in the yellow
    pages. They go all over New England. They have electric, gasoline,
    propane units in just about any size platform, bucket, working height
    that you need. They deliver and pickup. 
    
    I'm sure that there are other equipment rental places that have them also
    but with the economy the way it is if I mentioned any particular small 
    company they would probably not be in business anymore anyway.  
    
	Good luck
    
    	PL

The situation with lead paint is complex and the regulations are
changing.  The only thing that one can predict with certainty is
that the regulations will become more stringent with time, not less.
(I've learned a lot more than i wanted to know about this in the
process of buying an old house.)

In Mass. landlords and owners ARE covered by the same laws.  If you
are a landlord and a child living in one of your units tests positive
for lead, all kinds of things come down on your head and you are
required to do things immediately to abate the situation.

If you are an owner, you can get a private inspection.  It costs 
somewhere around $250.  The inspector does not call the state.  You
don't have to do anything and anything you decide to do can be
planned with whatever leisure you feel inclined to take.

When you call an inspector, get an experienced master inspector WHO
IS NOT A LEAD ABATEMENT CONTRACTOR.  This is important.  Lead
abatement is a new business with few experienced people and at
least its full share of quickie unscrupulous characters.

According to something I heard on WBUR yesterday, lead rules are likely to
be relaxed in Massachusetts.  Homeowners will be able to remove and replace
windows and window casings by themselves.

    I am in the middle of painting our kitchen and have run into a problem. 
    Two walls of the kitchen had wallpaper on them.  We removed the
    wallpaper a scrubbed the wall down with hot water to remove the paste. 
    I then washed them with a strong solution of TSP, spackled, sanded (the
    whole walls) and washed again with TSP.  I also washed the ceiling and
    other walls with TSP at this time.  Next, I used a latex primer/sealer
    on the walls that had been wallpapered.  They were are dark green and I
    thought this would help block the color and seal and residual paste on
    the walls (although I could not detect any).  We are painting the
    kitchen white and it was an antique white so I knew it would take two
    coats.  I figured I would use a flat latex for the first coat (it's was
    half the price and I thought the gloss would adhere better) and then
    finish with a gloss latex.
    
    I let the primer/sealer dry for a week and everything looked OK.  I
    then painted the whole kitchen with the flat latex.  The next day as I
    was preparing to paint with the gloss latex I noticed something odd. 
    Some of the paint on the wallpaper walls had thousands of tiny cracks
    in it.  Sort of like an eggshell that had shattered.  The ceiling and
    the other walls were fine.  I thought it might be an incompatiblity
    problem with the primer so I did a test on a wood scrap out in the
    garage.  It turned out OK.
    
    So I think it must have something to do with the wallpaper paste
    residue.  It does seem to be worse in corners and around the trim.  Why
    it did not show up after the primer and not until after the first coat
    I do not know.
    
    The big question is what do I do now?  The paint still seems to be
    adhering, it is just cracking.  I tried another coat of flat paint in a
    small section and the cracks still showed.  I also tried going over it
    with the gloss paint and it seemed to hide the cracks, but I am
    concerned what will happen in the long run.  Is there anything I can
    seal it with or am I going to have to take the paint off?  I have used
    paint strippers before and can't imagine using them on drywall.
    

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Jerry [Moderator]

     If the deck in the prevgious note had been painted with a "CLEAR
    PRESERVATIVE" you may be asking for trouble if you paint. Many of the
    water repellent waxes used in these selser/prservatives will repel
    ter based paints. Kind of like trying to paint a block of wax.
    
    
    Dick
    

    Correction to my previous comments.  I've learned that lead (in some
    form) was added to varnish as a dryer.  So it can be in clear finishes
    as well as opaque ones too, and the opaque ones can be any color.  

I took a seminar on finishing techniques awhile back, and one of the
things stressed over and over is that with the new water based finishes
you SHOULD NOT EVER use a tack cloth.  The reasoning was that the residue
left by tack clothes would cause a "fisheye" effect in the finish as
it cured.  He recommended using unwashed cotton rags ( he buys several yards
of cloth when it is on sale).
The silicone in most fabric softeners also causes the effect, so that's why
he did not recommend using an old T-shirt or something.

Re: .19

Hmm - I didn't have a problem with this when I used a tack cloth before
finishing with a water-based polyurethane (Flecto Diamond Varathane).

			Steve

    What's the best way to dispose of used paint tihnner?  whe nI clean
    brushes I usually let it sit so that the paint or varnish in the used 
    thinner settles then reuse the thinner.  But I have some that I've used
    to clean brushes I've stained with and that doesn't settle.  Is ther a
    way to recycle this for use again rather than dicard it?
    
    George

I've had good success with coffee filters when I can sneak them out of the
kitchen.  :-)

-B

>... When I clean brushes I usually let it sit ... then reuse the thinner. 
>But ... I've ... clean[ed] brushes I've stained with and that doesn't
>settle.  Is there a way to recycle this ... rather than discard it?

     I just use the thinner over again regardless of the color it has from 
the stain.  Is there a chance that the next brush will pick up the stain??

    I reuse "settled" thinner for the first one or two washings of a
    brush, then use a little new thinner for the final rinse before
    going to soap and water.  I'm not sure the new thinner is really
    necessary though.

    Steve,
    
    	You clean brushes used for oil based finishes with thinner and then
    use soap and water?  I didn't think soap and water would do anything
    except screw up the brush.  Or is it that you are using thinner to clean
    water based finishes?  Either way, why?
    
    George

    Re soap on brushes...
    The owner of a neighborhood paint store recommended AWLAYS cleaning with
    soap and water. Gets the last remnants of thinner out. But, then, his
    recommendation was to -leave- a little soap in the brush for storage.
    Keeps it supple. 
    
    Works for me so far
     

    Yep, I always wash out the brush with soap and water (Ivory soap works
    fine, seemingly better than detergent, although that may be my
    imagination) after cleaning well with thinner.  One does have to
    get all the paint out with the thinner, of course, before washing with
    soap and water.  (I'm talking about after using oil-based (alkyd) paint,
    just to be sure that is clear.)
    Never heard of the idea of leaving a little soap in the brush, and
    if it's truly clean I'm not sure it's necessary.

I sometimes use dishwashing soap, but I find that waterless hand cleaner
(a kind that doesn't just have "fatty acid soaps") works very well in
getting the last of the paint out of the brush and leaving it soft.

			Steve

    
    I use a very little thinner to soften & break up the paint, then
    a very strong solution of a cleaner like `Dirtex' & a brass wire brush
    to clean up the paintbrush.  Then finish with soap or dishwashing liquid
    and water.
    
    The reason painters use soap & water for a final wash is a hangover
    from the days of wood-handled pure bristle brushes.  It prevents the 
    residual volatiles from destroying the glue holding in the bristles,
    and conditions the bristles.  It probably does nothing for manmade
    bristles, but it might still prevent the volatiles from breaking down
    the bond to the handle.

    Regards,

    Colin
     

Does anyone have any experience with waterbased finishes for hardware floors?

Gim

Hardware floors?  Most hardware stores I've been in use vinyl on their floors.

			Steve

We did our rock maple floor with water-based this past spring.  It was incredible
... we sanded the newly installed floor all day Saturday, and in six hours
on Sunday we put the three coats of finish down.  We have had no problems with
it.  The application is a bit tricky... you have to be careful of puddles ...
but we have been very pleased so far.

Elaine

    
          <<< SERENA::SERENA$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Home_work >-
================================================================================
Note 1543.13                  Wood floor finishes?                      13 of 14
CSSE32::SKABO "$$ Money talks - Mine say's GOODBYE!" 40 lines   2-JAN-1990 13:37
                -< Try  VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm)      

      I received a sample of this new product a couple of months ago... it
is GREAT! I have used other Varathane products (see note 2.134) on my new
hardwood floor, but if they had this product last year, I know I would have
used it.... For a free product brochure, (maybe they will send you a sample) 
call the Flecto Co. at 1-800-6-FLECTO (1-800-635-3286) I have not checked on 
the $$ price, but anything with all these features is worth it!

Below are some highlights of the product from their brochure:

	o VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm) transparent IPN 
	  (Interpenetrating Polymer Networks) This new technology results in a
	  coating that's clearer and tougher than any polyurethane, any 
	  lacquer, or any any varnish.


		1. Twice the durability of polyurethanes, two coats provides
		   more abrasion resistance than three coats of polyurethane.

		2. Never turns yellow (I will vouch for this! wife stenciled a 
	           white ceramic floor tile in the kitchen, and I protected 
	           it with this, looks great and is holding up super...)

		3. Water clean up!! (a PLUS)

		4. Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!

		5. Virtually ODORLESS!!!! (yep, no poly (or anything) smell 
	           at all! No one knew that I was even using the product in a
	           closed house)

		6. Dries in 1 hour! So you can recoat in 1 hour, do the
	           floors, etc without running everyone out of the house!!!

		7. Finish comes in Gloss, Semi-Gloss and Satin....



    

The one comment I have on Diamond Varathane, having used it on my kitchen's
cherry counter edging, is that because it DOESN'T yellow (hardly at all), the
wood won't get that "rich warm glow" that one so often associates with wood
but which is actually caused by yellowing of the finish.  I actually had to
go over the edging with standard polyurethane to get the edging to match the
cabinets!

I'm uncertain how well it will work on floors, but check the label to see.

There are now a number of other water-based urethane finishes on the market.

				Steve

The water based poly I've looked at has an extra hardener additive which
is recommended for floor use.  This adds, as I recall, a few dollars per
gallon to the cost of the finish.  My guess is that it is worth it.

Anybody have any good or bad experience with or without the additive?

Does anyone have any experiences with the pump-up sprayers that are
used to apply stains & sealants to decks. They are similar to garden
sprayers but have different nozzles to apply the various kinds of
sealants/stains.

I purchased one about a month ago at a Home Depot in Atlanta and it 
worked great but I had a problem with it. I returned it only to find
that it was recalled by the manufacturer.

Upon trying to get a replacement, I find that no one seems to sell
these types of sprayers. It worked great and I need to finish my deck.

My questions ...

a) Has anyone used a similar aparatus for the given purpose and if so
   who is the manufacturer so I can call and find a dealer.

b) If not, how do most of you normally apply sealants and stains to
   outside decks. If you use a regular garden sprayer, does it coat
   evenly?

   Thanks for any advice

   Manny

    Yep, I bought one at Home Depot and used it for just this purpose.
    I've seen a number of them on the market.  The problem I had though
    was that it clogged up and I've been unable to unclog it, even after
    a full disassembly.
    
    They still had them last I checked.  So did Wal-Mart.
    
    			Steve

    
    
    I thought of that before.  So I went out and picked one up.
    This was the 2.5gal size, figured I'd be able to go a long
    way on a fillup......Well, seems that it got used for 
    everything else!  Which size did you get?
    
    Sooo....needless to say, i'll use a roller for the deck
    this time again....
    JD

Steve,

Could you check the manufacturer's name and address for me?

Like I said, the one I got was from a company call Technoma or something
like that and Home Depot stopped selling them due to a design defect.

I checked Walmart but they only have the garden type variety that claims to
be multi-purpose but I'm hesitant about using one of these because the spray
is not even enough, in my opinion.

Thanks

Manny

    RL Flomaster model 1973DS Deck Sprayer
    RL Corporation, 800-253-4642 (in MI, 800-772-7547)
    
    			Steve

Thanks for the info Steve,

The local Home Depot here doesn't carry any of the XXXX-DS models for
some reason. I called the company to see if thet caould refer me to a
dealer but they seemed to be out of touch a bit.

They told me that Builder's Square in Atlanta definitely stocked them.
Problem is they went out of business here locally over 1.5 years ago.
When I told them this, they just said ...."Oh ....".

So, I guess I'm out of luck and I'll have to give the regular garden
sprayer variety a shot.

Thanks for the info.

Manny

    I've stained my summer camp a couple different ways, and each worked
    real well. The first way I sprayed the stain on the side with a garden
    type sprayer, then just chased it around with a brush, this was fast
    and worked fine. However, thegarden sprayer will not spray evenly
    enough to do a good job without brushing, so plan on it if you go
    this route.
    	The second way was I used one of the wood handle (sort of like
    a sponge mop) applicators, with a lambs wool bonnet on the end. These
    are used to apply urethane flooring finishes. The bonnets are
    replaceable. I just put the stain in a paint roller tray and went to
    work. It was real fast, and did a very neat job. I don't think you
    could beat this method for a flat surface. Only problem is it won't
    get into cracks. You could spray into the cracks, then use this "mop"
    on the rest, and I'm sure that would work well.
    	As for the garden sprayers, if you use one for stain, they can be
    difficult to clean thoroughly. When I used one I looked ta it as an
    expense for the job, a disposable item. Now it doesn't spray quite as
    well, so I use it for insecticides an stuff only.
    
    
    			let us know what you do !
    
    				Steve

I was able to find a repair kit for my Flomaster sprayer at Wal-Mart yesterday.
They didn't have the model of sprayer I had, but they still had at least two
other styles which would work for deck spraying.  Of course, it's now "out of
season" for such things and different stores stock different items.

				Steve

   We just refinished our pine floors this weekend and did something wrong!!

   We had someone come in and do the sanding and put down 1 coat of water-
based satin poly. My husband applied a second coat. The finish was basically 
non existent. The wood appeared to soak up all the poly and had a rough texture.

   Our next attempt was to lightly sand down the floors and apply a coat 
of water-based gloss. It still has a rough texture, but now you can see ridges
in the finish as if it were sloppily brushed on. He used a lambswool applicator
by the way.

    So, has anyone worked with the water-based poly on pine? Do we just need 
a bazillion coats with sanding between every one?  The poly was McCloskeys(sp?).
Is there something better in the water-based?

Any ideas?
Teanne      

    I just used the minwax water based poly. First coat got absorbed.
    Second coat, one could see a bit of a finish. Third coat - looked like
    the floor had been finished. Once the rest of the work is done in the
    room, I intend to put down a fourth coat. Sand lightly, and sweep
    thouroughly between applications.
    
    This was my first experience with water-based poly. I have used oil
    based extensively on other pine and never had the same experience, but
    then, this was the first time I tried a pine floor.

I've finished about a dozen pine floors and it seems to take at least 3+ coats
to do it properly...the first gets absorbed as you have stated.  By the third 
and fourth coat you should see the results that you want.  I have always used
steel wool, broom, a vaccum and then tack cloth in that order to smooth and
clean the floor between coats.  Failure to smooth out or pick up the left
overs makes for additional difficulties in the future coats....and although
you think the floor is clean, you wouldn't believe what the tack cloth
picks up on the final run.

-Jay

(I have not used water based product before...but don't believe this should
be a problem)

I always use a magnet as a "tack cloth" after using steel wool.

    I have bay windows on my house.  The windows face north and get no sun
    from October to March.  Every year,  the paint cracks and blisters.  I
    have to sand, prime, and repaint the bay windows (or parts thereof)
    ANNUALLY.  I use a premium quality oil base paint.
    
    Any suggestions for putting an end to this yearly, tedious task?  I
    thought of vinyl siding, but this is an expensive solution.  
    
    Why can't I find a paint that won't crack in less than a year?
    

RE: "Tack cloth" 
      
      I have heard/read somewhere that a "tack cloth" is not a good idea
      when using water based finishes.  The reason is that some  of  the
      "stickiness"  from the cloth gets left behind.  This is soluble in
      oil finishes, but not in water. For cleanup before water-base poly
      a damp cloth is recommended.

      I've  used  a  tack  cloth  several times with water-base poly and
      never had a [noticeable] problem.  However, I've changed  over  to
      the damp cloth method since reading the above comment.

    Hello?  Anybody home?

Did you look at the notes referenced in 1111.70?

    
    How many coats of old paint are on there?.  If the surface is sound and
    it's not excessive weathering, sometimes a thick coat of paint will
    behave in the way you describe.  The only thing you can do is ttrip the
    lot right back to the wood next year, let it dry out and start afresh. 
    Check the moisture content if you think it may be damp.  Have you
    considered using a stain instead of paint? 
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    Well, we didn't exactly perform a controlled experiment but we did get
a much nicer finish on the floor. 
    We ended up renting a polisher with a sanding screen and ran that around
for awhile. It took most of the poly we applied off and even got down to 
bare wood in places. 
    Then we cleaned up with a tack cloth instead of a damp rag and applied a
different water based satin poly Zip guard. Oh yea we also used a 4 in brush 
instead of the lambswool applicator. 
    So, like I said we're not sure which change made the difference! But even 
after the first coat of Zip guard, the floors were 100% better. We also used 
less. About 1/2 gallon of Zip guard for ~500 sq ft and a full gallon of 
McGloskeys even after several coats.
    So I would recommend the Zip Guard and for anyone renting equipment in the
Hudson MA area, Jeff at Robinson's hardware was incredibly helpful.

Thanks for the help,
Teanne
    

     Many of the walls in the TAY2 building have two- and three-colored
speckled finishes.  How is it done?

     Sighting down the walls, you can see that they are sheetrock with 
seams.  There are occassional globs of crud in the paint that are like 
what you get when you use a roller.  Every seam and corner, including
places that are impossible to get to with a roller and very difficult to
get to with a brush are perfect, suggesting spray application.  There are 
different colored sections adjacent to each other.

    
    
    
      This IS done with spray paint. A great job too I might ad... I've 
    applied this myself in my kitchen, above the counter to sit at. I also
    applied a clear finish so that it can easily be cleaned. It's been
    about a year or so since I did this and still looks great. I bought
    this at Town Paint in Marlboro,Ma. and I've also seen it at HQ on
    RT 9 in Shrewsbury. I paid about $10.- a can with the clear. I've 
    recieved alot of good coments on this also.
    
    -AL
    

>This IS done with spray paint. A great job too I might add ... I've applied
>this myself in my kitchen ... I bought this at Town Paint in Marlboro,Ma.
>and I've also seen it at HQ on RT 9 in Shrewsbury. I paid about $10.- a can
>with the clear.  ...

     I'd like to try it in my house, too, but would like whatever 
additional information you can provide:

     What do you get for $10?

     What kind of sprayer do you use?

     Do you have to thin your paint or otherwise treat it before spraying?

     In TAY2, the feature size is about 1/16".  Is there any way to 
change it?

    
    
      This kit comes with the spray paint in a spray can(all mixed). The
    paint comes in different colors with the speckle in it. It just sprays
    a speckle combination of colors. I believe the amount is around 10-12
    ounces. The kit also comes with 1 can of clear. I had enough paint and
    clear in one kit for an area of 2 ft x 10 ft. and a little left over. 
    
    NOTE:   Before you do this you need a base coat of the color you like.
           (I used latex for my base). Something to either blend in with
            the colors you choose, or to accent them.
    
          1.)  Spray the base you'd like....(overnight should be enough 
               drying time for latex).
          2.)  Spray your multi-color speckle paint(work from top down,
               left-right or visa versa). Pay particular attention to
               covering the areas you don't want painted(paper and masking
               tape). A mask with a charcoal filter is also a good idea if
               you have a big area. Good ventilation a must for you health.
               The area should not smell after a couple days.
          3.)  Spray your clear after an hour or so. This way the speckle 
               paint sets up. This will prevent the area from rubbing off
               and will also make the area easier to clean.
    
    
    If you need any more information I'd be more than happy to help.. You
    could also contact me directly at DEMING::LAFORTE ....I could also send
    you a photo of the area I did.
    
    
    
    
          2.)   

    
    Large areas are done with a type of spray painter (What I call a
    "flecking gun", but it's probbaly different here).
    This is also a two-coat process with the basecoat being laid down with
    a roller or conventional sprayer.  Some have a couple of nozzles
    to lay on different coloured spots, others use paint that is
    formulated not to mix.  You can get a similar effect by filling
    a conventional sprayer with a 50-50 mix of oil base and water base
    paints, shake it up (hard) and spray.   An old theatre trick for texturing
    props and sets.   If you haven't got a sprayer, very stiff brush
    can be used to flick the paint onto the basecoat. Nice & messy!
    
    Rag rolling or sponging can give a similar effect and you can
    get an excellent marble effect by randomly lining it with a goose
    feather.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    I watched Home Again last week and it had previews for what they were
    doing on their house for this coming week November 30-Dec 6.  They gave
    a glance of someone painting a floor and it looked like they were doing
    some speckling type painting.
    
    Might be worth checking this show out.  In the Marlboro area Home Again
    is on A&E a couple of times on Sunday 8:30AM and some other time later
    in the morning before noon. It's probably on several other times during
    the week, check you TV Guide.
    
    Judie
    
    

    I have a Stanley steel entry door that is about 3 months old.  I've
    been planning to paint it, but haven't got around to it yet.
    
    While visiting friends this weekend, I noticed that they also have the
    same door.  I mentioned that I'd be painting ours soon, and my friend
    showed me the label that came with his (can't recall seeing one on
    mine).  It stated that a Latex paint must be used.
    
    Anyone have any idea why Latex is specified?  I was planning to use the
    Alkyd paint that I've used on the trim, but now I'm concerned.  The
    door was received with a primer on it.
    
    Lee

RE:<<< Note 1471.7 by SALEM::TIMMONS "Where's Waldo?" >>>

       
   > While visiting friends this weekend, I noticed that they also have the
   > same door.  I mentioned that I'd be painting ours soon, and my friend
   > showed me the label that came with his (can't recall seeing one on
   > mine).  It stated that a Latex paint must be used.
    
 I have 2 of these doors and I used oil based stain, (cabots) with no problem 
whatever. 2 coats with a roller over 3 years ago and no peeling, flaking 
or rust yet!

Stain .ne. paint.  I believe the reason is that the latex paint will put up
better with the expanding and shrinking of the door.

Doesn't matter what you do, though; the thing will rust sooner or later
anyway.

			Steve

FWIW...
   This past summer I repainted my front entry metal doors. I painted with a
latex paint, although the paint dried quickly to the touch, in the 3 weeks I
left it on, the latex paint was always sticking to the door jambs (sticking to
the point where we had a VERY difficult time opening the door.)  Eventually I
stripped them down to metal, primed and repainted with oil base paint.  It took
a couple days to dry, but the door has not stuck since.  Don't know why it
happened the way it did, but it will be a cold day in H... before I use latex
paint on a metal door that I need within a month of being painted.

Al

    
    
    Hummmmm.....I would think a good cleaning, scuffing it up with
    some veryfine sand paper.  Little can of auto spray priner/sealer
    and a spray can of your color would so just fine???
    
    JD
    

    As regards rusting, I doubt I'll have a problem, as this door is not
    exposed directly to the weather.  It's an entry door from a mudroom.
    
    Having the door stick because of Latex paint is the same problem I had
    when I used latex on a wood door.  And that's one of the reasons why I
    wanted to go with oil-based.
    
    As I've thought of this since writing the question, I wonder if it has
    something to do with the oil not being able to penetrate as it would on
    a wooden door.  Latex will dry as the water evaporates.  And that might
    explain why the comment was made about a long drying time.
    
    I'm gonna hit the inside with oil and see what happens.  I can't do the
    outside until warmer weather.
    
    Lee

    
    Mine are finished with acrylic enamel over rust inhibitor primer.  No
    problems yet except that the seal stuck a bit, as it did with the
    latex.  Solved this by cleaning the seal with alcohol and rubbing on a
    spot of silicone lubricant.  I think the problem is with the material
    in the seal, not the paint.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

Has anyone used the Minwax Polyshades?  It is a 
combination of polyeurathane and stain all-in-one!

I'm comtemplating to either use the "polyshades" or 
go with the regular Minwax stain and then Minwax 
polyeurathane.

The Polyshades comes in about 8 different colors either
in the "satin" finish or "high gloss".

I heard that the Polyshades/satin finish turns out
kind of dull.... any comments?

Thanks!
Rhonda

    That's (to me) satin is. kind of dull, if you want shiny
    use gloss.  I've used the polyshades and was very happy
    with the results.  Hint... be sure and sand between coats with
    a very fine sand paper.

    
    	I've use the Polyshades several times..always got good results.
    	I agree that the satin finish is somewhat dull, but there are
    	certain times when you might want that particular type of finish.
    
    	John

    I have used the Polyshades quite a bit too and have always been happy
    with the results.  Well, OK, almost all the time.
    
    As an earlier reply suggested, sand between coats with very fine
    sandpaper and the results will be better.
    
    The experience I've had with large surface objects, like bureaus and
    headboards is where I have run into difficulties.  Polyshades sets up
    quickly, becoming sticky.
    
    Carl
    

I've used both methods, and like the separate stain/polyurethane much better
than the combo.  The polyshades, to me, had a somewhat muddy finish instead of
a nice clear stained look.

Regards,

Laura

    I have used Polyshades on small items whee I wanted a one-coat finish,
    rather than having to bother with separate stain and poly.  I would
    never do it again.
    
    Apart from having much less control over the color than you get with
    rubbed on stain, the finish is not durable.  It peels off.  If this
    happens with plain poly, you cna just recoat.  If it happens with
    polyshades, the color peels off too, and you have a real mess.
    
    My advice is to apply a couple of coats of regular stain, and then
    Polyurathane, either satin or gloss, according to your preference.  It
    will be less work in the long run.  A trick that I learned long agao is
    to sand the _stain_ with 600 grit wet or dry abbrasive paper while it
    is still wet.  This gives you a sily smooth finish, without the dust
    that you get by sanding dry, and smoother too.
    
    	Andrew
    

	I can't see how Polyshades would peel off, if properly applied -
	especially with just one coat. You may have put it on too thick,
	which is bad for *any* polyurethane.

	I have had very good luck with Polyshades on at least 4 bookcases.
	We were starting with just basic pine, and wanted a bit more color.
	Not much sense in staining to bring out a non-existent grain, and
	polyshades worked great. 

	As with previous replies, we sanded between coats. We also applied
	at least two *thin* coats, making sure to let the first dry
	completely before applying the second. Preparation makes all the
	difference in the world.

	That said, we'll be using separate stain and polyurethane for our
	new six-panel door. Polyshades, like most one-step products, just
	doesn't quite match up to doing it in multiple steps. What you're
	buiying is convenience in a reasonably good product.

	Roy

My town recently had a hazardous waste disposal day so I went down to the 
basement to figure out which old cans of paint I should get rid of.  The 
previous owner left alot of stuff and I didn't really have any idea how 
old it was.  The process made me realize that I don't really know anything 
about how long paint lasts after it's been opened, how to recognize if paint 
has gone bad (besides the obvious can of pink paint that now has black in 
it), how to best store paint so that it lasts longest, etc.  I considered 
stirring up the ones I was wondering about and testing them on something 
but I thought that would be an unsatisfactory test unless I was willing 
to wait a year or so to see if it held.  Bottom line was that I threw out 
anything that didn't look really new and in pretty good shape.  I'll still 
probably give a quick test to any of those.

Any information along these lines that anyone can share with us?

Thanks.

Walker

P.S. I learned at the hazardous waste disposal center that all of the latex 
paints that I had brought did not need to be brought to them and they wouldn't 
accept them.  The sanctioned way to dispose of them is to take the lid off 
of them, set them outside (or someplace else with plenty of ventilation), 
let them dry out, put the lid back on, and throw them in the trash.
Of course the preferred method for getting rid of any paint that's still 
usable is to find someone else who can use it.

I believe that with older (read: "linseed") oil based paints, the shelf life
varies depending upon how much exposure to oxygen the vehicle has experienced,
as the linseed oil itself darkens from oxidation. Newer oil based paints have
a polyurethane (or other) base which holds up a lot longer and is more stable.

That being said, a lot depends upon how well sealed the can is if it's been
opened. Never-opened cans normally have a shelf life of many years. Well
resealed ones can do almost as well. I've used plenty of paint in the last
twenty years that my Dad sealed the can on in the 50's and 60's. Although,
I can't vouch for the trueness of the color compared to the original hues,
the paint still covered and dried acceptably.

- Jack

    
    A very simple test can be applied to the 'freshness' of latex paints.
    All you need to do is smell the paint - if the paint has a slight odor
    of ammonia then it is OK.  If the paint has a slight foul smelling
    aroma, such as rotten eggs or sulfur then the paint is old and
    chemically 'broken down'.
    
    Even if a paint has 'lumps' it still could be alright to use.  All you
    need is a disposable paint strainer (usually about 15 cents) to get rid
    of them quick.
    
    It is also possible to get rid of lumps by taking you paint to the
    local paint or hardware store for mixing.  Five minutes on the 'shaker'
    will sometimes generate enough heat to smooth the lumps.  This is
    something you could not do by stirring it at home.
    
    Hope these hints help.
    
    ps.  Another option with old latex paint is to mix them all together
         add some white to the mix and you will get beige paint.  This is
         what land/slumlords do when they paint their buildings.  They just
         go into a paint store buy up ALL the mis-mixed paint they can get
         (usually 50-70% cheaper than regular prices) add some white to the
         'soup' and their set.  I never figured out why exactly it turns
         out to be beige everytime.

I  preserve paints and varnishes in opened cans by putting 
a layer of propane (from an UNLIT propane torch) on top of the 
contents before putting the top on the cans. I wish that I could 
claim credit for this idea but I read it in a notes file earlier. 
It may well have been this file. The propane prevents oxygen from 
getting at the contents. Because of liability and so forth, the 
disclaimer is "don't do what I do."


Joe

>					Five minutes on the 'shaker'
>    will sometimes generate enough heat to smooth the lumps.  This is
>    something you could not do by stirring it at home.

You can also buy an attachment for your drill for mixing paint...

	The tricks I learned to store paint are:

	1. Transfer paint to smaller containers to reduce
	   exposure to oxygen

	2. Make sure lid seals tightly.

	3. Float a thin layer of turpentine (just enough
	   to cover, pour over the back of a spoon).
	   over the paint.  Only good for oil-based.

	These techniques have worked very well for my father
	who occasionally uses 15 year old paint. (old yankee)

    
    they sell lids which fit inside the 1 gal paint can so that you can
    push it down to just above the surface of the reamining paint. you then
    cover can with top cover and supposedly no air can get to the liquid
    remaining in the can.
    
     I spent under a $1.00 for one of these things a while back when I was
    buying some paint at Spags. Some day when I open the can again I'll see
    how well it worked.
                          
    
     Bob

<	3. Float a thin layer of turpentine (just enough
<	   to cover, pour over the back of a spoon).
<	   over the paint.  Only good for oil-based.

   At one of the home shows I've been to a guy selling airless paint sprayers
suggested floating a thin layer of water to keep latex from skimming over 
while you take a short break, and dunk the sprayer head into a bucket of
water for the same reason...

Al

Encourage your town to set up a paint exchange, where people
can drop off left-over paint, and pick up any they might need.

We did this for our hazardous waste collection day, and may look
into making it a permanent set up.  Of course, it works best
if you want to drop off white paint and pick up Ugly Umber.

   Gary

I tried a balloon inside the half used can.  It didn't work. It was deflated
when I went back a year later.

    How about turning them upside down?
    

    
    Not exactly on the same topic, but close enough to avoid starting
    YET ANOTHER painting topic:
    
    	I'm looking for any suggestions for painting the ever-rusting
    	bulkhead doors. It seems that everywhere I look I see rusty
    	(but painted) bulkhead doors and I'd like to try and find a 
    	better solution that will last a few years.
    
    	My bulkhead is slightly rusty at this point. Any success 
    	stories?
    
    								- Mac
    

Yes, or at least so far.  Earlier this summer I painted my rusting bulkhead
door with a paint called Hammerite.  It contains embedded "flakes" of 
something which, when it cures, creates a finish something like hammered
metal (hence the name).  It also looks a bit like galvanized steel.  The
manufacturer claims that the product stops rust from spreading and is a
superior barrier to new rust forming.  It is a very rugged paint.

I sanded off the loose rust on my bulkhead and applied the Hammerite.  It
comes in spray and brush-on forms and is not cheap ($8 or so per pint).
Two coats are recommended, and you MUST apply the second coat within four
hours of the first or else wait six weeks!  It can be recoated within an
hour.  A roller works best for large surfaces.

I like the appearance of the finished product, and it so far has proven
durable (and I have seen no evidence of rust spread.)

I bought Hammerite at Hammar Hardware (no relation) in Nashua.

				Steve

Hmmm. First year in my house we put rustolium(sp?) primer (a sick-yellow color)
after a wire-brush treatment then covered that with gloss black (to match other
trim) and have no problems at all.

Some years ago my parents tried skipping the primer step and having rusting
problems now.

bjm

    	There are a few products (one by the brand name Extend) that are
    used for autobody repair that you may want to look into. They supposedly
    chemically neutralize rust, and act as a primer for regular paint.
    
    	I have used the stuff in autobody repair with good results. Not
    sure if it's needed (or practical) for large flat areas though. It's
    primary use is for the nooks and crannies that you can't sand well when
    doing autobody (i.e. folded metal seams.) As you can tell, I obviously 
    don't have a sand blaster.
    
    	Ray

    One thing not to use is Latex paint. Guaranteed to rust.
    
    
    Steve
    

    These are some paint systems used commercially on mild steel that is exposed
    to salt water.
    
    1. Sand blast to white metal, coat with zinc based etching primer,
    cover with two coats of two-part epoxy full gloss enamel with arsenic
    inhibitor. The arsenic stops barnacles, etc, but I guess these are not
    a problem in a house?
         
    I've seen things done like this look like they were painted yesterday
    after 5 years. This finish is usually "factory" applied.
    
    2. Wire brush, coat with phosphoric acid rust convertor, coat with
    zinc based etching primer and epoxy enamel as above. Usually field
    applied, also works very well.
    
    3. For areas not in the tidal zone,  wire brush, phosphoric acid rust
    convertor, zinc rich etching primer, then two-part epoxy or encapsulate
    in a membrane finish like Emerclad. If you use a membrane finish its
    important not to nick it.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

To revive an old note:

I'm about to paint the interior (walls, trim, and ceiling) of my porch. 
The porch is enclosed with sliding windows and a door and is not exposed to
rain or snow at all. The porch is not insulated and not used in the winter. 
It gets as cold on the porch as it is outside.

My question is whether to use exterior paint to paint the ceiling and walls
(and trim) or interior paint.

If exterior paint stands up to the extremes in temperature better, does it
make sense to use that?  If so, then what about summer homes that are shut
down for the winter and not heated?  Those homes would get as cold as it
does outside, but I doubt if exterior paints are used on the inside of many
summer homes.  

Will the chalking that exterior paint does really be noticeable if I use it
on the porch?

Thanks!

Diana

    
      You should indeed use exterior paint in an unheated room. It will
    stand up much better to the temperature extremes. There are two things
    to watch out for, and the chalking is one.
    
      Try to get a paint that does NOT chalk. Look for one that is VERY low
    in calcium carbonate (chalk) on the ingredients list. I'm sorry, I
    forget how much is ok. The other thing to be careful of is that since
    exterior paint usually has a bit of gloss to it, and since under cover
    it will not get the gloss worn off over time. You want to make sure
    that if there is any gloss on the old paint that you wash it with a
    strong mixture of TSP (trisodium Phosphate - found in the paint section
    of almost any store) That will help the new paint adhere to the glossy
    surface.
    
      I recommend a good grade of oil based paint, unless you can be pretty
    certain that there is latex on there already. (The stretchyness of
    latex gives oil *over* it a hard time) Oil *will* will adhere better if
    you can use it. Though I know that many homeowners don't like to use
    it.
    
    				Kenny

    I'd use exterior paint since the porch isn't heated.  You probably
    won't notice the chalking unless you want to use white paint.  Most
    exterior white paints are made to chalk to carry away dirt.
    
    /Charlotte

Actually, what I'm painting over is brown wall paneling.. It's not the
glossy kind, but has a rather rough texture, so I'm sure the paint will go
on fairly easily..  I was planning to use an exterior primer, then
B. Moore MoorGlow latex, white. I hope it doesn't chalk too much.  The
exterior is painted with that paint and I haven't noticed a whole lot of
chalkiness -- whatever that looks like.

Thanks for the help.

Diana

    
      The problem with the paint chalking, especially on a porch will be
    when people rub against it and the chalk gets on their clothes.

    You can buy semi-gloss exterior paint. Would that chalk?

    Rich

>    You can buy semi-gloss exterior paint. Would that chalk?

The exterior of my house has semi-gloss paint on it and I don't feel any
chalkiness when I rub my hand on it.   I'll try semi-gloss.

Thanks.

    I have checked all the Varnish notes I could find and can find anything
    on cleaningup/restoring the finish.  All the wood work is in very good
    condition, but the varnish is dark and kind of dirty.  I was using
    rubbing alcohal on a spunge and that was working pretty well.  I was
    wondering if there is a better solvent for softening and refinishing
    the varnish.  Some of the walls that are varnished were covered with 
    sheetrock and in spots the paper stuck to the varnish.  Water will not
    work, the alcohal softens the varnish but the paper fibers just get
    gummed up in the varnish.  I do not want to refinish the walls as you
    would do with funiture, at this time there is just too much to do,
    I just want to clean up the trim and some small areas on the walls.
    I have read note 4515 re:lead.
    
    Thanks for any ideas,
    
    Paul
    
     

    If alcohol is dissolving the finish, it's probably shellac, not 
    varnish. Or, if it's only sofetning but not actively dissolving the
    finish, it might possibly be shellac.  "Real" varnish ought to
    be pretty much impervious to alcohol...I think.
    

    Looking for opinions here.....
    
    The woodwook in my house is painted.  The walls are a different color
    than the woodwork (door included).
    
    My question is:  Should the paint on the door - when open - match the
    color of the bedroom woodwork or the hallway woodwork (so that when the
    bedroom door is closed it will match the hallway) 
    
    See, the bedroom woodwork is white.  The hallway woodwork is gray.  
    If the door to the bedroom is closed, the side now showing in the 
    hallway should be what color?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Diane

    I'm solving the problem by painting all the doors (both sides) white.
    That will go with anything.

    
    well, if the door is closed, it should match the rest of the wood-
    work in the hallway.   Unless you want to pant all your doors
    in the hallway another color so they match each other.....
    
    If it were me......I like natural wood or a stain...
    
    JD

    The woodwork on the door should match the room it opens into.  Since it
    opens into the bedroom it should match the color of the woodwork in the
    bedroom.
    
    Carol
    
    (who spent all weekend painting woodwork in a bedroom)

	The FRONT and BACk of the door should match their respective rooms
	-- outside matches the hall, inside matches the bedroom. The SIDES
	of the door should match the room into which they open.

	Roy

    
    Well, if it were me, I would think about whether the door is open most
    of the time or shut most of the time.  If you never shut the door, I
    would paint the entire door the color of the room into which it swings
    (i.e. the bedroom).  If you shut the door even occasionally, I agree
    with .4 wholeheartedly.
    
    Phil

    
    If you never shut the door, I would save the paint and take it off its
    hinges.
    

>>>    See, the bedroom woodwork is white.  The hallway woodwork is gray.  
>>>    If the door to the bedroom is closed, the side now showing in the 
>>>    hallway should be what color?

	Red.

>>>>    See, the bedroom woodwork is white.  The hallway woodwork is gray.  
>>>>    If the door to the bedroom is closed, the side now showing in the 
>>>>    hallway should be what color?
>
>	Red.

RED!   HA!!   I love it!!!

    With the door closed, the wood work that shows should be the color of
    that area.  In your case Gray to match the hallway trim.  The rule of
    thumb is to use the door stop molding as the divider.  If the door
    swings into the bedroom, then the trim on that side of the stop should
    match the bedroom trim and the stop and the wood on the outer side of
    the stop should match the hallway.  I hopr this helps...
    
    Doug

>================================================================================
>Note 5235.9                     WHAT COLOR PAINT?                         9 of 9
>POCUS::RHODES                                         8 lines  15-FEB-1994 11:52
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                            -< Door trim Painting >-
>
>    With the door closed, the wood work that shows should be the color of
>    that area.  In your case Gray to match the hallway trim.  The rule of
>    thumb is to use the door stop molding as the divider.  If the door
>    swings into the bedroom, then the trim on that side of the stop should
>    match the bedroom trim and the stop and the wood on the outer side of
>    the stop should match the hallway.  I hopr this helps...
>    
>    Doug
>
> 

    Thanks for all the replies so far.  As most of you probably noticed,
    there are dividing opinions.
    
    I originally painted the door gray to match the color of the hallway
    when the door was closed.  I used the molding as was suggested as
    the dividing point.  This didn't seem to be an issue......
    
    until my husband was home sick all last week and while spending the
    majority of the time in bed, he realized he didn't like the gray
    on the door.  He preferred the color to be white - to match the
    bedroom.
    
    Like a couple of you mentioned, the door to the bedroom stays open
    most of the time.  Occassionly it will be shut, but he figured that
    since the side facing is in the bedroom most of the time, it should
    be white.  I told him I'd get some opinions, and it seems that
    some agree with me and some don't.  But what I think it boils down
    to is personal preference.
    
    Thanks again!

                         Spray gun vs Hand brush
    
    Hello, 
    
    
         I am planning to paint the exterior of my house with oil stain
    paint. I am debating whether I should use spray gun or hand brush.
    What would you do? 
    
    Thanks for your time, reading and answering my question.
    
    Dave
    

See 1111.70.

    Use a brush unless you've got an "incredibly GREAT" pro-sprayer.  It
    just is not worth the trouble with anything less.  None of the Wagner
    series cuts it as far as my experience runs. Use a brush - take your
    time - take frequent breaks - keep lots of cleaner around - and of
    course have plenty of your favorite beverage no more than an arm's
    reach away!
    
    	Good luck!

    	I used a paint sprayer on my house and it came out great.  I have a
    Sears air compressor along with a spray gun, not the Wagner paint guns.
    My neighbor did his with a Wagner gun and it didn't come out that good,
    but then he took less time to paint than I did (I covered the windows
    in plastic before I painted).  I was careful painting, but it is a pain
    to spray on windy days (ie don't paint on windy days).  Also, when I
    was spraying, I was using a brush to work the paint into the wood, so
    that's probably why my house came out better than my neighbor's.

    
    I used a Wagner sprayer and a brush on cedar shakes -- it was quick and
    easy.
    
    Good masking is critical. (Ask my neighbor up the street, who now has
    green shadows on the concrete foundation, on the red chimney bricks next
    to the wall, on the first foot or so of brown roofing, etc.)
    

>                      -< Use a brush - save your sanity! >-

	    No way man!  I loathe painting.  At least a sprayer would be
	a novelty for a little while.

					Tim

    
    I have one of the Wagner guns and find it works very well - especially
    with the tubes that let you use a whole can of paint at a time.
    One drawback is that they get very uncomfortable to hold after about 30
    minutes.  The vibration causes numbness in your hands.  
    
    Colin
    

    re:-1
    
    You guys kill me!
    
    "works very well"   ie "very uncomfortable to hold" - "vibration causes
    numbness"
    
    Yeah - that's my idea of fun!
    
    Go for it!

    
    It's not that hard a concept to work out.  The gun paints very thoroughly
    and gives a good finish. My shutters and picket fence look great yet are
    a pain in the ass to paint with a brush. They take only a few minutes
    each with the gun. (i.e., you don't have to hold it for more than a few
    minutes at a stretch.)
    
    On the other hand, painting a whole house means you have to use the gun
    for much longer with no additional project time advantage over a brush. 
    Therefore the gun is not a tool I'd favour for that job.
    
    Professional house painters often favour a combination of air sprayer
    and brush because these are faster and lay on a thinner coat of paint
    which dries faster, allowing earlier recoating without checking or
    blocking.
    
    Colin
     

>>	    No way man!  I loathe painting.  At least a sprayer would be
>>	a novelty for a little while.


I paint my house with a pen and checkbook.  The novelty never wears off, and I
never have to use a ladder to write checks.

   With painting a house, you're not really holding the sprayer all that
   long anyway at one stretch ... think about your layout.. just how much
   wall/shingle/decking can you paint before you have to move something -
   either the scaffolding, the ladder, the paint bucket, or something
   else....  the sprayer does such a quick job that you're almost
   constantly moving with it just to get an even coat.  I don't think
   you'd end up holding it with no interruptions for very long.
   
   I did one about 5 years ago with a rented paint sprayer - it was a 2nd
   coat after a 1st coat by hand... it was a nice change.  We got several
   people with brushes for a whole day versus 2 of us for about 1/2 a day
   with the sprayer... I'd do it again.
   
   fwiw,

   - Tom

If you only spray, the stain will not be worked into the wood as well as
it would be if you brushed.  If you use the sprayer just to apply the
stain quickly while you brush it in with your other hand, you'll get the
benefits of brushing with the speed of spraying.

I've done this several times and it works real well.

Joe

>I paint my house with a pen and checkbook.  The novelty never wears off, and I
>never have to use a ladder to write checks.

	    Ouch!!!  I don't hate painting enough to PAY someone to do it 
	for me!  I might pay someone to install siding, though.  Those guys
	can finish a house pretty quick and the have all the tools.

					Tim
	P.S.  Then again, after I found out how much for labor, I might
	decide to install it myself.  It's not like I don't have plenty of
	projects as it is.  8^)

    I have done done two houses with an air sprayer and one big big house
    with a Wagner. I liked the wagner the best. Not as much over spray, 
    however I had to spray a few minutes and then come back with a dry
    brush to even it out. (The siding was smooth type, and would not soak
    up the stain as well as a rough type siding.)
    
    Next time I have to do my house I am going to get out the Wagner. 
     

    
    	You guys out there with the Wagners:
    I'm thinking about buying one of the Wagner power sprayers but which
    one is the best value. It seems like Wagner has about 50 different
    models of sprayers, not counting the rollers and other various Wagner
    products. The range looks like it starts at about $60(?) on up to 
    ~$200. I don't need the $200 High volume low pressure (HVLP) model but
    I don't think I want the low end model either. The types of things I
    will be painting (staining) are a stockade fence. a deck, a shed,
    things that are not "mission critical" where a $500 sprayer would be
    overkill. Anybody got a model number that they particularly liked or 
    felt was a good value for the money???
    
    Thanks for any ideas,
    	Jim    

    I paid somewhere around $85 for my Wagner. It included the big tank
    that you load with a gallon. Mine also has multiple speeds which I
    found useful. I've only used stain in mine. I don't see how it could
    ever spray a thick latex paint. You might have to move into the more 
    expensive models to do this. 

RE:                 <<< Note 5332.15 by GRANMA::GHALSTEAD >>>
     
>>    I paid somewhere around $85 for my Wagner. It included the big tank
>>    that you load with a gallon. Mine also has multiple speeds which I
>>    found useful. I've only used stain in mine. I don't see how it could
>>    ever spray a thick latex paint. You might have to move into the more 
>>    expensive models to do this. 

          Oh heavens to Murgatroyd, NO.  I have the same model and have only
     used latex in it.  It handles the stuff just great.  I was a bit 
     concerned about how it would handle very thin stain.

                                     Greg

    
    There are different spray heads for different liquids; the thinner the
    liquid, the smaller the orifice.
    

Our old flormica kitchen counter top needs
a facelift.  Our local paint store sells
a paint that they claim works on flormica.
But, I'm concerned that it will not be resistant
to chipping, scratching and water.  Does
anyone have experience with this?

--val

I assume you mean Formica.  You can paint laminates, but I wouldn't think
that any painted surface would withstand the sort of abuse a counter normally
gets.

				Steve

Gee, after watching my husband put Formica on our countertops, I'd say just
completely replace the formica.  That way you get the best for durability
relative to what you have now, and you get a wide choice of colors, too.

Our Formica cost $200, but we have a lot of counter (an 8' x 12' U, plus a total
of 15' of bar).

Of course, putting new counter tops on could increase your desire to replace
other parts of the kitchen.  But if you'd be happy with just a new counter, I'd
say go for it.

Elaine

Don't know about the paint-wouldn't trust it in food prep area (and this is
from a someone who can't keep his cats off the counters!)

Look into new countertops especially if you can get away with the stock
one's at your local store. You can get a 6 ft section for ~$25, I think they
stocked upto 12fters, + ones with mitered corners, in a variety of styles.
If you have a router with a laminate trimmer bit for the sink hole
your good to go. It's even less expensive than buying the sheet formica
and adhesives. I think the end caps do add some $s though.

    From someone who has just gleefully ripped out painted (over laminate)
    countertops, my
    advice is DON'T PAINT!!  I can show you the pictures of how my counters
    looked - disgusting.  The paint peeled around the sink, on the portions
    which got a lot of use, and sometimes just blistered for the hell of
    it.  No way to clean the paint that did stick.  A completely bad idea.
    
    Dana

    Any opinions on acrylic latex solid body stain on red cedar clapboards?
    
    Supposedly keeps its appearance much longer than oil based solid stains
    and does not peel or crack.   
    
    
    

    RE: -1
    
    It may not peel or crack - but - it will bleed - especially if you use
    white stain , you'll really see the bleed-thru - knot-holes are a
    particular problem unless you use Bins Stain Killer on them first - and
    - don't expect the finished product to ever be as crisp, clean and
    brilliant as a high quality paint.
    
    D.
    	

    
    Let me try to clear this up - 
    
    	The clapboard is grade A rustic red cedar (no knots).
    
    	I was under the impression that the way to go with this stuff is to
    	us an oil based solid stain; semi-transparent is definite out due
    	to the potential bleeding problem.  I had every intention of going
        with the oil based solid stain.
    
    	Well, this was never documented and I guess it didn't sink in with
    	the builder so what I have is an acrylic latex solid stain on the
    	house.  It looks fine and of course the painter has nothing but
    	good things to say about this stuff.  
    
        I guess what I'm looking for is opinions like, "no problem acrylic
        latex is the way to go" or "too bad that stuff is junk and you'll 
    	be scraping it off in 2-3 years".
    
    	Thanks,
    	Bill           
    
    
    

Latex stain is fine, though you may get some extractive bleeding over time,
especially if you've got a light color.   I've been using Behr "Plus 10"
latex-oil solid stain on my cedar fence, and it looks very good so far. I
primed it first with an oil-base primer.  However, the cedar arbor I bought,
which came pre-stained with "three coats of Benjamin Moore latex stain" showed
extractive bleeding within days of its arrival.  In the spring I'll go over
it with primer and re-stain.

					Steve

    I looked through the half million notes ;-) on exterior paint, and this
    seemed to be the best place for this question.  I plan to paint my
    house in the spring (I couldn't afford to paint it this autumn), and
    am trying to decide between Benjamin Moore and Behr exterior paints. 
    If I go with Benjamin Moore, I'll buy at Nashua Wallpaper and if Behr,
    at Home Depot.  Pros and cons with these paints?  Is one significantly
    better than the other?  If not, should cost be my deciding factor? 
    (For instance, if one goes on sale, should I buy and store it over the
    winter?  My basement is heated.)
    
    The house is a ranch, with cedar shakes (not clapboard) that
    desperately need painting.  I will be changing the color, but the
    current color is beige.
    
    I appreciate all the notes in this file about prepwork and oil versus
    latex, paint versus stain.  They have been very helpful!
    
    
    Susan
                                    

    My house is painted with Moore paint and my fences are stained
    with Behr stains.  I like these products, but haven't tried Behr
    paints (nor Moore stains).  
    
    What you might want to do is buy a quart (if you can) of each type.
    Paint them out on a large board (at least 2'x2') - note how smoothly
    the paint flows from the brush, what the finish is like when it
    dries.  Put on two coats.  Expose them to the sun for a while
    (all winter if you can).  If nothing else, it'll give you a better
    idea of what the actual color will be like.
    
    					Steve

    
    They're both good paints, and I also like Olympic as an exterior paint.
    
    One tip, I wouldn't buy paint and store it for months.  The pigment
    tends to settle out.  Also, if you get a slight dent and air in the can
    there may be some rusting inside that will ruin the paint.
    
    Should you make any mistakes and need to buy additional paint, the new
    batch may be a slightly different colour. (Drop a bucket off a ladder
    for example....). For a custom color, this mismatch may be even worse.
    
    It's best to buy a large container of fresh paint and have the store
    mix it in their machine, then use it right away.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    My large Victorian was painted with Benjamin Moore - I was very
    satisfied with the quality and it has held up very well (will repaint
    the house next year - it's been 7 years since last painting - no
    peeling, just fading)
    
    Several of the colors were custom mixed - I repainted my back porch 2
    years ago and they mixed up a new can of one of the custom colors using
    the same formula (they have these on file) - it was a perfect match.
    
    I agree with the last reply, I wouldnt buy the paint too far in advance
    - it will settle and if you have a custom mix, it will be opened and
    exposed to air.
    
    Note: this was latex paint, not oil  Also, I bought my paint through a
    paint and wallpaper store - I would stick to these type of dealers if
    you need custom mixes.
                          

    Thanks for the good advice!  Steve, I'll see if I can pick up a quart
    of each and give that a try.  It's a great idea!  And I never would
    have thought about settling over the winter - and since I can be a
    klutz, the possibility of denting cans is probably high.  Thanks,
    again.
    
    
    Susan

Well, the paint used to paint my house had been sitting around for two
years.  As long as the cans were full and sealed, and mixed well, there
didn't seem to be a problem.  I've also bought a set of "paintsavers" -
plastic discs which one pushes down into the can to seal a partial can against
air exposure.

					Steve

    
    I have to paint some new door casing and was wondering if it is ok to
    use exterior primer and interior semi-gloss paint over it (both latex).
    I have about a half gallon of the primer left over from painting the
    exterior trim of my house and I'd like to use it instead of buying
    another can of paint. Are the interior/exterior primers different
    enough to cause problems?
    
    Steve B.

    I've found that storing the cans upside down helps.
    
    Cal

    No problem if both latex.
    
    Cal

    You can get a paint stirring thing that can be used on a electric drill
    to mix the paint back up.  Or do what I do: make friends with your
    local hardware store (I do seem to spend a lot of time in there), and
    when you need to touch up some paint, take the can there and get them
    to shake it up on their machine (make sure it is sealed properly when
    you put it away!).  Don't try to stir settled paint up with a stirring
    stick - you'll be at it all day and still not get it well-mixed.  The
    skin that forms (especially on latex paint) when there is air in the
    can never seemed to be a problem for me.
    
    /Charlotte

We just bought BM latex paint for our house.  We painted our new addition 
(which was new cedar clapboard, smooth side out, primed with oil-based 
primer) and have partially painted the existing house (which was 
painted hardboard).

BM flows like butter and provides good coverage.  It went extremely well 
over the primer.  No brush strokes, runs, etc.  Painting over the hardboard 
was another matter.  The house was white and with only one coat you could 
see some of the white underneath as well as brush strokes.  A second coat 
with a very good brush covered it up and it looks great.  

We also painted some plastic shutters and it sticks very well.  Overall I'm 
happy...we'll see how it holds up.  BTW, if you go with BM, buy it at Spags 
on sale (even if you are in NH, it is worth the trip).  Acton Paint had BM 
for $22-27 per can depending on whether they had to mix it and the color 
you chose (darks are more expensive).  

At Spags I paid $15.55 for the Low Luster for both the premixed white and 
the custom base color.  The regular price $17.50? was better than anyone 
elses sales price.  I think they normally charge a buck a can to mix but 
they waved it that week I bought.  

So wait for a sale and buy it at Spags.  Don't worry about storing it, 
it'll be fine as long as it doesn't freeze and you mix it well before you 
start.  As with any custom color, mix 2-3 cans together in one big pail 
before you start to even out any differences in the mix.  Even a good paint 
store can screw up a computerized mix.  BTW, I compared separate cans mixed 
from Spags and they were identical.

Nashua Wallpaper and Paint's prices are as good as Spags - no sales tax
and no mixing charge.

				Steve

I called them when I was calling around for prices.  There sale price
on Moore's was ~18.50 if I recall.  I didn't ask about a mixing charge.  
Since Spags was as close, it seemed worth the trip.  I can understand for 
NH residents it may not be worth the trip.

    Not to mention that my family has done business with Nashua Wallpaper
    all my life!  If I'm buying Ben Moore paint, I'll only buy there. 
    Sometimes, loyalty is a good "business" decision!  --S

    The last note here is from 1992.  How is the water based polyurethane
    holding up?  We are trying to decide between oil based and water based. 
    Has the water basedyellowed at all?  What would you use today on a red
    oak floor that gets a lot of traffic?
    
    Thanks,
    Bill

        I put in note .16 - since then, last fall I helped my son put in a red
    oak floor in his living room  and he finished it with Varathane
    (Diamond - water based) and it looks so great.... the natural color of
    the red oak looks soooo good that I guess my wife wants her music room
    (done with ZIP brand) done the same this spring. I know he has not had 
    much traffic to date, but the difference between oil & water is like
    night and day for the rich "true" color of the wood.

    I have Varathane (Black label) on my living/dining room and hall way
    floors, yes this type (oil base - but low smell, fast drying) does make
    the floor a little yellow, but it has held up fantastic with LOTS of
    traffic (people and a Old English Sheep dog always running around). I
    will always use the Varathane brand products....

    Tom

    re .21
    I know I answered this somewhere else, but I used the Varathane
    waterbased in my kitchen about three years ago primarily to avoid
    the yellowing effect of oil based. It does not hold up as well
    in the high wear areas, but it is easy to spot sand a small area
    and repair. This could be considered a feature :-). I agree with 
    the last reply that the color is worth the extra effort.
    
    Saul

What's the best way to clean up dark wood stain which has dripped 
on to lead flashing? It's dried on so rubbing with white spirit 
doesn't do any good.
Chris

    
    Polish it back to the metal - the shiny spot will soon weather. One of
    those kitchen pot cleaners that are made of stainless steel and a bit
    of metal polish to help it along.  Ordinary steel wool or a wire cup
    brush will work, but may leave rust streaks if you don't flush off
    carefully. If it's a large surface, you could put a buffing wheel on a
    drill and use a bit of rubbing compound.

    
    
    I couldn't decide which notesfile to put this peculiar
    question in...  
    
    My husband has a ping-pong table that he has had since he
    was a kid... It's still in good shape.  The only problem is
    that the surface is slightly discolored from a wet rag that was
    left on it overnight, and it has some scratches. 
    
    Does anyone know if it is possible to sand and repaint the 
    playing surface a ping-pong table?  If so, what kind of paint 
    would we use?  Is there "Ping-Pong-Table" green paint specifically
    for this purpose and if not, would other types of paint inhibit
    the bouncing of a ping-pong ball?  
    
    I know ping pong tables aren't very expensive, but we'd rather
    improve the appearance of this one, than purchase a new one. 
    
    Thanks, 
    Darlene
       
    
    
    
       

    Many years ago I had a ping-pong table with a similar problem.  I
    remember finding a paint made especially for ping-pong tables.  I
    repainted it and it looked like new.  I can't remember were I found the
    paint, or who made it, it WAS about 25 years ago!
    
    Ken

    you could also check out blackboard paint
    
    
    bv
    

    	Has anyone used an Wagner spray painter with latex paint?  I want
    to paint the inside of my 2 car garage.  It has rough texture plaster
    walls and the ceilings are 14 ft.  Doing the painting with a brush will 
    probably destroy my arm.  I'd like to use a sprayer and backroll with a
    roller only if necessary.  
    	If someone has tried a sprayer on textured plaster, how did it
    work, what model spryer did you use and would you do it that way again?
    
    				regards
    				Bob

>> I paid somewhere around $85 for my Wagner. It included the big tank
>> that you load with a gallon. Mine also has multiple speeds which I
>> found useful. I've only used stain in mine. I don't see how it could
>> ever spray a thick latex paint. You might have to move into the more 
>> expensive models to do this. 
> Oh heavens to Murgatroyd, NO.  I have the same model and have only
> used latex in it.  It handles the stuff just great.  I was a bit 
> concerned about how it would handle very thin stain.

	Where did you guys get a Wagner that is rated for latex and
	has the big (1 gallon capacity i believe) tank you strap on your back?
	I just paid $150 for that one (model 300 and something) at Home Depot.

	On the subject, I haven't used it yet, but plan to very shortly,
	starting with a non-textured ceiling (already primed).  Anyone
	ever use it on a ceiling (it's a roughly 14' x 14' room)?  What
	tip works best, the wide angle, or one of the round ones (and which
	one, L, M or H)?

jeff-who primed the ceiling with a rollar which convince him to buy a spray gun

    
    re 18:
    
    Yes, I use a wagner with all kinds of paints.  The trick is in the thinning
    and it's worth taking all the time you need to get the consistency just
    right.  It also takes a lot of time to mask up, but the coats dry much
    faster then brush or roller and recoating can often be done in hours.  
    
    I find that the extension tupes, straight into the mix can is
    the most time effective (short of using the backpack model).  It also
    greatly reduces the weight of the thing when working overhead.  On the
    negative side, I find that the vibration can be both mind and hand
    numbing, but it's a lot less worse than the grief I get from my
    shoulder if I;ve had a 4" brush over my head for a day or so.
    
    A flexible extension tube is very useful for ceilings and a couple of
    spare nozzles so that you can keep working without stopping to clean up
    the nozzle.
    
    Colin