Conference 7.286::home_work

Get a probe-type stove thermometer, and install it above the converter.  You
can use the magnetic stick on types, but they're not as accurate.  When you
start up a fire, let it burn with quite a bit of air until the temperature is
greater than 560 degrees, then you can turn back the stove as far as you want.
The catalyst starts working at that temperature, and once it gets going it will
keep itself hot even if the stove itself is just smouldering.

One other thing - don't burn paper with colored ink on it.  The ink often has
heavy metal oxides in it that wreck the converter.  Sort of like putting leaded
gas in a car with a converter.

The converter will wear out in 1-3 years, depending on how much wood you use.
You'll be able to tell because the temperature above the converter will go down.
With a new converter, and the stove running at a reasonable temp, it will often
be 1100-1400 degrees F.

Paul

re: .1

	1100-1400 degrees?!?  Can regular stove pipe handle that kind of
heat?

-joet

I assume if it is well shielded from combustible surfaces that it must be able
to, since they sell the things with no warnings.  I have a stove with the
converter built in, and I think the hottest it has gotten to (right over the
converter) is about 1250.  It often runs cooler, in the 800-1000 range.  But
when the converter is running it is rarely less than 800.

One other thing - get the converter as close as possible to the stove.  Think
of how hot you would have to run the stove to get the pipe up to 560 four feet
away.

Paul

This reminds me. I have one which I will sell. I will get the details and
place it in here. I purchased it a year ago and never used it (we sold the
house with the wood furnace, or was it the furnace with the house ??)

It fits an 8" flue. has the thermometer built in. A well built unit. It was
one of the best units during a rating test (again, I have to dig up the info).

It cost $200 new and I will let it go for $100. It's still in the original
box

If anyone would like additional info send mail to MUTT::WAGNER

Merle

Does anyone know what Vermont Castings has to say about adding a catalytic
converter to one of their stoves (we stopped getting their irregular newspaper
some time ago)?

I'm specifically interested in a Defiant.

By the way, the flue thermometer about 3 feet above our Defiant typically
runs 550 - 650 degrees with the damper closed and 1000 degrees or more
with the damper open.

-- Ward

re: high temps

I have several books on woodburning, but they, and the info that comes with the
stoves, are woefully lacking in details.  The flue thermometer I bought has
a grey zone ("low") up to about 300, a white ("normal") up to about 475,
and a red ("danger") above that.  I assumed (silly me) that stack temperatures
should fall in the white range.  1000 degrees w/o a catalyst!?!?  

At what temperature does the stove get cherry red?  :-) 

-joet

Speaking of stoves, I'm recently transplanted from Atlanta to NH and now
am the proud owner of a Vermont Castings Intreped (small) wood stove.  This
airtight stove has a two position damper:  in the OPEN position it allows
the exhaust gases to go straight up the stovepipe, and in the CLOSED position
it recirculates the gases into another combustion chamber (NO catalyst, I
believe) which is heated and gets pre-heated outside air.  The intent is
to burn all of the combustables in the exhaust gases and, I assume, get more
heat.

However, when I close the damper, the stove seems to run cooler (via a stick-on
thermometer on the stovetop).

The manual that came with the stove is somewhat confusing, and I don't really
know what to expect.  Any ideas?

Jeff

re:Vermont Castings

These stoves have what they call "Horizontal Burn", which means when the damper
is closed the air comes in at one side of the bottom, and the smoke goes out the
other side, also at the bottom.  The smoke then goes through a zig-zag path up
the back of the stove, where it is supposedly exposed to more heat from the
firebox, and can burn some of the gasses in the smoke.  The stove will run much
cooler with the damper closed, because only the wood on the bottom is burning,
and the smoke has to travel such a long, twisted, path that the air flow is 
lower.  When the damper is open, the flames come right up through all of the
wood, plus the airflow is greater, so the stove temperature is much hotter.
However, when the damper is open, large amounts of heat go right up the flue,
much like a fireplace.  Although the stove is cooler with the damper closed,
more heat is extracted from a given quantity of wood, and the stove will burn
much longer.

About two years ago V.C. came out with what they call an 'energy extender.'
It is a sort of box that attaches to the flue opening and hangs down behing
the stove.  It has a catalytic converter in it, and as close as I can tell
is a compromise between an integrally designed converter and a normal stovepipe
one.  It has a long smoke passage and lots of surface area so you get more
heat out of it than you do from a stovepipe one, but less than you would if
the converter were built right into the stove.  Plus I think it is ugly,
which is a real shame because the V.C. stoves look so nice to start with.
I'm not sure if they even make one that would fit the Defiant, I think they
started with just ones that would fit the Vigilant and Resolute.

Another thing that you might try:  On a Vigilant, anyway, the opening to the
smoke passages in the back of the stove is about 3-4" square.  My father has
one, and he's been thinking of buying a standard 5" diameter converter and
cutting it down to size to fit in that hole. You'd get more heat out of it
that way, since it would be right inside the stove.

Paul

Re: Catalytic dampers/converters and stack temperatures...

I've got an add-on combustor as well as a 'heat extractor' on the set-up
in my house and I've not worried about excessive temperatures. The combustor's
just below the extractor and the final temp. of the flue gasses appears to be
about 40% of the combustor inlet temperature.

The biggest benefit I've seen from having the cumbustor is the reduction of
creosote in the exterior chimney (mine's 6" Oliver-McLeod insulated).

According to the manual that came with the combustor, it's supposed to reduce
the creosote build-up by 90% as well as increase the heat output by some 40%

The heat-extractor (trade name Magic Heat) does even better in that it gets
another 40% or so back from the 'cleaned' flue gasses.

BTW...my stove (stamped sheet metal) starts to get red at about 900 degrees
needless to say, it dosen't stay that way long...I like to keep the temp.
down to conserve on wood. Before I put the combustor on, I'd have to load
at least twice over the course of a night...now it goes all night...

One of the responses inquired about the temperature at which the stove begins
to glow.  For those who are interested, here is a color temperature chart
for steel (reprinted without permission from Machinery's Handbook, 18th Edition.

    Degrees C.     Degrees F.           Color
       400            752          Red heat, visible in the dark
       474            885          Red heat, visible in the twilight
       525            975          Red heat, visible in the daylight
       581           1077          Red heat, visible in the sunlight
       700           1292          Dark red
       800           1472          Dull cherry-red
       900           1652          Cherry-red
      1000           1832          Bright cherry-red
      1100           2012          Orange-red
      1200           2192          Orange-yellow
      1300           2372          Yellow-white
      1400           2552          White welding heat
      1500           2732          Brilliant white
      1600           2912          Dazzling white (bluish-white)

Hope none of your stoves ever get past the dark red.  If they do, you've
got quite a heat source!  

BB

Back when I was stupid (I'm older, wiser and poorer now), I discovered a
"neat" technique for getting my Defiant up-to-temperature after putting in
a new load of wood:  simply set the stove in up-draft mode (damper open)
and leave the door open a crack (1/4 to 1/2 inch).  It works great.

HOWEVER, if you don't pay attention to the stove, after not too many minutes
the fire really gets going, getting WAY TOO HOT.  A couple of times, I
compounded my lack of attention by leaving the room.  The cracking of the
burning creosote in the stove pipe would get me back in the room before the
stove totally destroyed itself, but not soon enough.

On those occasions, I immediately closed down the stove and then made the
best of a bad situation:  turn off all the lights and enjoy the beautiful,
glowing red, cast iron front doors on the Defiant.

The end result of this stupidity has been two cracked fire-backs (the first
one replaced by Vermont Castings under warrantee, the second replaced at
my expense) and slightly warped front door (not really a problem after
replacing the gaskets).

Moral:  Be smart, but enjoy your stupidity.

-- Ward

re .10 (colors of Hot Steel)

	What is "red heat?"  How does it differ from dark/medium/bright red?
                          

With respect to the color temperatures I listed in .10, you will have to
talk to a good blacksmith or 'old-time' machinist who has done some small
scale heat treating to get the differences in the shades of red explained.
I'm quite sure it is a very subjective call.  Like knowing how much salt
is 'enough' in a recipe when it calls for a 'dash'.  I would guess that 'dark
red' is a little brighter than the minimum needed to make the object appear
red without any question in the sunlight.  I personally don't have calibrated
eye-balls, but I thought it would make interesting reading to include a color
chart for reference.

BB

re: .0

A note of warning about the catalytic combustor that prompted this note.
I got it at Spag's for $43.20.  Unlike all of the others I've seen, it doesn't
come in a housing.  All you get is a 10" cast iron ring into which the catalyst
honeycomb is press-fitted.  The whole thing is between 3/8" and 1/2" thick
(much thinner than any other I've seen).  Cheapness is the key word, here.

I installed it, and it worked O.K. for a couple of days.  After that, the whole
stove didn't seem right for the next week.  After I took the pipe apart,
I found that the honeycomb had fallen out of the holder and was obstructing
the flue.

I guess the rule is, "Ya gets what yaz pays for".

Spag's cheerfully took it back, and I think I'll spring for the $80 one after
Christmas.  Stay tuned.

-joet

I once used one of the gizmoes.  The stove came gizmoe ready.  Paid my
$150 for it.  I donno, mybe just me, but my stove seemed more effecient
without it.  And in the end, I took it to the dump.

The thing that puzzles me is one that can be put in the stove pipe.  I 
remember having to by-pass mine until the flue temp got high, then
flipping a lever to kick it in.  Seems like the thing woulddd get clogged 
at low temps.
Ed Badger

re: .16

You do have to bypass until the temp gets high enough for the catalyst to
activate.  It's just like a regular damper with a control on it.  When it's
vertical, the smoke goes around it, when horizontal, through it.

-joet

re: .0,.15

There's a magazine, WoodHeat 85/86, that has a comparison of 
several catalytic damper add-ons and heat extractors. There is a fair 
amount of text and a chart with all the models discussed with pricing 
information. I think you can get the rag at the stove shop, however, 
you may have some luck in finding it at a large newsstand.


BTW...I've been having a bit of a problem with my damper (Catalytic 
Damper Corp) and have gotten a procedure for testing the converter.

First, remove the element and carefully wire-brush off any fine ash that
may have accumulated.

Next, play the flame from a propane torch on the element. If things are 
working OK, it should glow for a short time when NOT in the presence of 
the flame.

Then, turn off the flame and turn on the gas WITHOUT igniting it. Play 
the gas on the conveter and it should start to glow and possibly 
re-ignite the flame. If all this happens, then your converter is 
functioning, if not, see if there's a warranty claim. I've got a new 
one coming for $14, pro-rated against the full replacement cost of $70.

Another tip-off as to the converter's activity is that after you've 
turned off the gas, it will continue to generate heat until all the 
accumulated creosote has been consumed. There probably won't be any 
appreciable glow, just a fair amount of heat...

I'm looking for a good wood stove thermometer, the type that uses
a probe that is in the pipe vs the type that mounts to the outside
of the pipe via a magnet.

			{aieio,thehut}::Farrell

I'd recommend that you get a probe thermometer that reads approximately
1500 degrees F at full scale.

We have one that calibrated to 1000 degree and it often does off-scale to
what I expect is 1200-1300 degrees.

-- Ward

Re: .-1:
Why are you running your stove so hot?  Cut it back to 600-700 degrees
and you should still be plenty hot enough to avoid creosote buildup
while saving on firewood.  Or move the thermometer further up the pipe 
(away from the stove).  However, everybody seems to have their own way 
of running a woodstove, so if you like the results you're getting at
1200 degrees, that's your choice.  (Is the calibration off, perhaps?  
Try putting it in boiling water and see if it reads 212.  1200 degrees
is HOT!)

But to the question at hand:
You can buy a stainless seeel probe thermometer graduated up to 1000 degrees 
from:
	Brownell's Inc.
	Route 2 Box 1
	Montezuma, Iowa

Cost is in the vicinity of $22, plus postage etc.  Send them more than
enough (say $30) and they refund the overpayment with a check that
accompanies the order. They sell gunsmithing supplies, and their catalog 
is (I think) $3.  All sorts of weird and wonderful tools.  I used one of 
their 1000-degree thermometers in a woodstove stovepipe for several years 
and found it very helpful.  I'd run it at 500-700 degrees, mostly. 

Another source might be the Omega Instrument catalog; there ought to be
some floating around the company someplace, or check for their ads in 
some of the engineering magazines.

Steve

re:1200 degrees

I suspect that ward has a catalytic converter.  We have one, and it runs about
that hot just after the gasses come out of the converter.

If you don't have a converter, and don't intend to get one, 1000 degrees is fine

Paul

My stove is a Vermont Castings Defiant (with no catalytic converter).  The
thermometer is mounted about 2 feet above he stove.  It's another 3-4 feet
to the chimney.

When the stove is running in updraft mode with very dry wood and the air
inlet vent wide open, the reading on the probe thermometer can get above
1000 degrees.  In order to get to this temperature, flames need to fill
the stove pipe (up to the chimney).  You can also hear the crackling of
the creosote in the stove pipe burning.

When the stove is closed down, the stack temperature read 600-700 degrees.

By the way, checking the thermometer by putting it in boiling water won't
be very accurate -- 212 degrees is at the extreme low end of the range
of the thermometer.  I suspect that even if this measurement shows accuracy,
there's no reason to suspect that the high end is accurate.

-- Ward

I went over to Dunn Energy Center in Maynard this noon, and noticed 
they have a probe-type thermometer that goes up to 1600+ degrees for
$14.95 or thereabouts.

Steve

I have a Vermont Castings Intrepid, and am constantly confused by operating
temp. recomendations...

When talking about running the "stove" at an average temp. of 500 degrees,
is that with a stick-on thermometer 2 ft. up the stove pipe, or placed on
the gridle surface of the stove?

I just did a major cleanout of my stove (pulled apart all of the internal
air channels, etc.) and it now seems to run a LOT hotter, but still don't
know where to put the indicator so that I can run it "correctly".

Jeff

    I know that it is a little warm outside to be thinking about this
    but I am thinking about buying a wood stove.  The house I am going
    to be putting is a 2 story, slab foundation, 1600 sq ft house.
      I really don't know much about stoves so any info would be a boon.
    Prices, sizes, and quality issues are some of the info I need.
    
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Mike B.
     

         Try the Wood Stoves NOTEsfile on KRYSTL::STOVES.
         
              Bill
                   

    I bought a new wood stove last year.  I've heated with wood for
    years and pretty much knew what kind of stove I wanted.  
    
    I found that one can save some money by buying in New Hampshire,
    but that's because you save on tax.  I ended up buying at my local
    wood stove shop, during their pre-winter sale.  I had been in there
    zillions of times for advice...they were always very nice and in
    the end, I felt I owed them the sale.  So I ended up buying here
    in Mass. and paying the extra money for tax.  I bought my stove
    from the Wood Stove Shop and Mill in Acton.
    
    I wanted a fireplace effect--hence a stove with glass doors.  The
    two stoves I considered were a Vermont Castings and a Jotul (I didn't
    want a Hearthstone or a Consolidated Dutchwest or anything inbetween).
    Friends who had bought Vermont Castings were very sorry.  The stove
    does not burn clean and it's hard to get a fire going.
    
    The Jotul is very simple to operate.  After a year of use, I'm still
    real pleased.  I got the enamel finish--it's holding up well.
    
    Good luck!
    
    
    

    I am one Vermont Castings owner who is not sorry. I bought mine
    about 5 years ago, burn three cords a year in it, and never have
    a problem getting a fire going, even from a few sparks in the ashes.
    It keeps my 5 bedrm gambrel nice and warm and has burned very clean
    since I started drying my wood for 16-20 months. This next winter's
    load has been stacked since last spring ('85) and winter of '87
    is due to be delivered in July or August. 
    
    
    I think the biggest hassles and disappointments come from:
    
    1. poor draft - chimmney not high enough to get a constant breeze.
    2. damp wood - 1 year ain't enough!
    3. owners who don't read the manuals....(don't we have a saying
    	about them within DEC also)
    
    BTW - my model is the Vigilant from V.C. They have really excellent
    customer support and rapport. They know what customer service is
    all about. Also, as a N.E. co. the replacement parts are easy to
    come by if needed.

    A common problem with the vigilant is that if you don't keep the
    4 draft holes at the bottom clear, it doesn't get air.  This is
    why
    people have trouble starting fires.  The holes are only about 2
    inches above the bottom of the stove, so if you have 2 inches of
    ash buildup, they'll get plugged.  Also, sometimes you'll see a
    big white spot on the left hand door of the vigilant.  This is from
    the same thing.  It is caused by the draft hole which is right
    inside the door on the left (and runs along the left hand side)
    becoming plugged.  I used to have trouble starting my vigilant,
    but once I started cleaning out the ashes more often, I haven't
    had a problem.
    

    
    
    I have used a Tempwood stove for over 5 yrs as the only source of
    heat in my house and have been extremely pleased with it.
    
    It's made of rolled steel as opposed to cast iron. It is a top loading
    stove, which I really like, 'cause you don't have to bend down or
    over to load it or empty it.  
    
    It's made somewhere in Mass (I forget where) and is measurably cheaper
    than a Jotul or Vermont Castings.
    
    I have burned seasoned wood and green wood in the stove with no
    problem.  I cooked on it all the time, and I think that a chile
    or spaghetti sauce simmered on a wood stove all day is unbeatable.
    
    I have since moved, and no longer have a wood stove.  I hope to
    build my next house in about 5 yrs, and will build a hearth for
    my Tempwood in that house.
    
    
    Ray
    

Has anyone used a Warner stove? Are they any good?
    MikeB

    Another vote for Tempwood as value for the money.  It's totally
    lacking in aesthetics, but it sure does work!  Another advantage
    to top-loading: ashes don't go all over the place when you open
    it up.
    
    Steve

    	I have used a TEMPWOOD for 4 yrs now and like it very much,top
    loading is great and it burns so well that there's very little ash
    left.  In fact I'm looking for a used one, at a reasonable price
    for my cottage.  If you hear of one pls let me know.
    

    I'm soliciting recommendations for a coal stove.
    
    Three years ago I declared, "I'VE HAD IT AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE
    IT ANY MORE!".  So I thumbed my nose at NH Public Service who, up
    until then, supplied me with very expensive electric current which I
    would proceed to expend into resistance heaters in my home.
    I purchased a Surdiac coal stove which has done a beautiful job of
    heating my entire home.  That was one of the best decisions I feel
    I've ever made regarding home management.
    
    However, now I'm adding on and I feel that the addition will need
    some supplimentary heat.  Again, I'm looking to coal but I don't
    know what kind of stove to purchase.  My primary stove is a
    Surdiac 616 (60,000 BTU) model but I will not require a large
    model like that for the addition.  So, I'm looking for something
    that puts out 30-35K BTU.  BUT!... an absolute requirement of it
    will be real unattended burn time.  My large stove will run for
    12+ hours if necessary without a shakedown and I will need similar
    performance out of the smaller one.  Or at least a 10 hour unattended
    burn time.
    
    So the question is, do any of you have first-hand experience (or
    even a good second-hand recommendation) with a small to medium
    size coal stove that will meet my requirement?  I would prefer a
    convection type  (Surdiac, Effel, etc.) but will consider a radiant
    type also.
    
    Lou Snider  DTN 223-7718

Also ask in KRYSTL::STOVES.

How do you get KP7 to work, anyway?

Paul

    
    	And see my reply in Home_work, I don't know how to make KP 7
    work either.
    
    	Reg
    

    Re: Making KP7 work
    
    Use the command SET NOTE/CONFERENCE=KRYSTL::STOVES to associate
    a conference with a note.
    
    	- Barry

    I have a Vermont Castings Vigilant that is approx. 3 years old.
    It has been used 1 full season and only occasionally since then.
        
    I've just started using it for the first time with the doors open
    in a new (1.5 yr old) house. For some reason it smokes with the
    doors open. I therefore cannot use it as a fireplace as it was
    designed to. The smoke seems to come out steadily along the top
    of the opening. It is enough to see in the room after 5 minutes
    or so. This did not happen in the last house. Any ideas what the
    problem might be?
    
    The stove is on a brick hearth and stands approx. 10-12 inches from the
    brick wall behind it. The pipe is the standard size for the stove (8"
    if I'm not mistaken). The pipe goes straight up about 18" then turns 90
    and goes approx. 12" and into the flue. The only thing different in the
    system that I can see is that the builder put a slightly smaller (I
    beleive it was 1" smaller) flue coming out of the wall than I had
    on the stove. I had to use a small section to convert down slightly
    before enterin the wall.

    House is 2-story on hill top. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
    BTW: Stoves works fine with doors closed.
    
    See Diagrm below:
        
					    |    
    					    |
    				  /-----\___|
    				 /          |
				 |	    |
       				 |    __/---|
    				 |    |     |
    				 |    |     |
				 |    |     |
    			---------+----+     |   
			|	      |     |
			|  Vigilant   |     |    
			|	      |     |
			|	      |     |
			|	      |     |
			|	      |     |
			|_____________|     |
			/	     \      |
-----------------------/--------------\-----+
    			    
    
    
    
    

    BTW: should add that chimney is clean.

    Perfaps you should ask this in the Wood Stoves Conference?
    
    	KRYSTL::STOVES
    
    	type KP7 (or select) to install it into your profile..
    
    						.dave.
    

    Problem is not enough draft.  I think you'll need to increase that 
    reduced-section stovepipe up to the 8" size.  What size is the
    flue inside the chimney?  It ought to be at least 8x8, probably.
    
    If you run with the door closed you're not trying to stuff as much
    air up the chimney, so it works.

    Here's my $.02.  Not only should you follow the other replies to
    isolate the problem but also answer for yourself if this new 1 1/2
    year old home is the super air tight construction.  If it is, you
    won't get enuff air from the room with the doors open.  As a 
    quick check, open a window in the room with the stove going and
    then open the doors.  If no smoke comes out, getting more air into
    the room is a solution.
    
    good luck
    
    Don Falkowski

Whenever my stove smoked with the doors open I took it as a sign that it
was time to clean the chimney or at least get the creasote out of the
stovepipe.  Worked every time...

-mark

    I have a similar problem with my woodstove.  Mine is a Shenandoah
    heater.  It's a larger than usual, non-decorative type stove that
    is in the basement.  I have a heck of a hard time with smoke when
    I try to relight the stove after cleaning.

    My chimney is clean and my stovepipes are clean.  Once the stove
    is going, I have little to no problems, as long as I crack the
    door when I open the stove for a few seconds before I open it
    entirely.

    I usually crumble up 6-8 sheets of newspaper, and then use some
    old slats used for old plaster walls for kindling.  That stuff
    burns like crazy so I would expect no problems.  But I get smoke
    leaking out of the joints in the stovepipe, out of the door cracks
    (yes, the door does shut tight), ARRGGGH!

    The chimney is 6" by 6" I believe, cinder block construction.
    The stove has an air intake regulator which I always open up
    fully when lighting.  I put a damper in the pipe which I also
    open up fully before lighting.

    Help!  Electric heat is my other alternative!

            Rico

  Some draft problems occur because it's hard to get the column of air in
  the chimney started.  So, you might try this little trick:  Go through
  your normal routine for starting the fire (newspaper, kindling, small
  pieces of cordwood, etc.). Before you light the match, loosely crumple
  one extra piece of newspaper and put it as far back into the damper or
  flue as possible.  Light this and let it burn for ten seconds before you
  light the real fire.  By lighting this first, you'll start the air
  moving and the real firestarting materials catch more quickly. 

  JP

    
    In my current house, I have a similar smoke problem, but it's related
    to a fireplace, not a wood stove.
    
    For some reason, there is almost always, a draft coming down the
    chimney, regardless of whether the damper is opened or closed. When
    I tried to light a fire last week, the smoke and flames were blowing
    back into the house!!!  I opened a window, slightly, near the fireplace
    and, voila!, the direction of the draft reversed itself, and went
    up the chimney, instead of down.  I've tested this a couple of times
    since then, and it always works.
    
    So, my suggestion is to slightly open one of the windows near the
    stove or fireplace before lighting.
    
    rgds, Ray 
    
    
     

    When my fire goes out I always have to open the door slightly to
    start.  The cold air in the chimney might as well be a solid mass.
    I agree with .8, get the air moving in the right direction.  Once
    the chimney warms up, you should have no problem.
    
    Don't be tempted to open a window upstairs.  Many think that this
    will cause the warm air to be drawn upstairs.  In fact, the airflow
    through the chimney is affected and the draft cound be reversed.
    This gets messy!
    
    
    -Chris

    Try BRAUN'S FIRESIDE EMPORIUM in Leominster (south side) -
    
    	534-8464   1177 Central St. (Rte 12); Leominster.

    Bruce,
    
    Since the oval pipe has the same circumference as the equivalent
    round pipe is there anyway that you can "flatten" the round pipe
    over a long run until it is oval and then use an oval elbow?
    
    Nick

    I've gotten an 'oval to round' elbow from a Vermont Casting's dealer
    before.  It's meant to connect the oval openning on the back of
    the stove with the round stove pipe.  Is this what you need?  They
    also have straight pieces of oval to round pipe (as short a 12").
    
    -willie
    

    This is a little late for the 86/87 heating season, but the 87/88
    season is coming up soon.  All of the other replies have good
    posiblities to correct your problem.  There is one the was not given
    thought.  What the heigh of your chimney above the crown of your
    roof.  For an 8 inch pipe/tile chimney, you need the top of your
    chimney at least 3 feet above the crown of your roof.  If the chimney
    is less the this you will get the down draft with the doors open
    or closed.  You may not have noticed it, but most likly you got
    smoke from the air intake with the doors closed.  Less smoke this
    was, harder to see.  If your problem has not been corrected, give
    this a try and see what the measurement is.
    
    This would go along with not enough air for the stove and woud help
    the air problem.  Opening a window close to the stove is cheaper
    then adding to the chimney.  Also, you can get an out side air vent
    that connects directly to the stoves air inlet.
    
    Tom Elsheimer
    

      Has anyone had any experience with the STACK stoves from New Zealand?
      They're fairly small and have a very clean style.
    
    

    (I have put the following note in STOVES, but I thought I'd reach
    a wider group in this note.)
    
    Has anyone had any experience painting their stove?  I'm buying
    a Lopi convection-type stove and I'm thinking about painting it
    white.  Since the stove is a convection-type, the paint will be
    on the outer shell and not in direct contact with the metal surrounding
    the firebox.  
    
    Any opinions or warnings?   

    
    I was wondering if I could get some help on this one?
    I have a coal and wood stove in my den in the corner
    and I want to tile behind it. I was told to put up some
    fire coded sheet rock and, to seal the sheet rock with 
    some type of sealer.. what should I use or not use any hints?
    How would varnish or wood perservative work?
    
    						thanks for any help
    							steve
    

    We built a floor shield for our stove and used DUROCK as a base
    for the tile.  I would suggest using the same.  It will not burn.
    
    Dwight

    Any ideas on the best way to clean a wood stove?  I recently had
    renovations done to my basement and the stove is pitted with the
    sheet rock/drywall dust from sanding.  The stove is a Vermont Castings
    Vigilant.  I must also clean the masonry tiles under the stove as
    well.
    
    Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.  

    Thanks, Mark.

    I would use a wet sponge to clean off all the sheetrock dust then
    dry it off well with a towel before any rust forms.  When it's
    dry spray the whole stove with stove paint.  That will make it
    look like new.  (Remove the two handles, and thermostat from the back
    before spraying it).  Also remove the top cover which isn't supposed
    to be black. That can be cleaned to look like new with muriatic
    acid.

    Thanks for the tip...
    
    Now, how about the tiles.  I am hesitant to use muriatic acid, as
    it may break down the mortor base.
    
    Mark.

    
    
    RE: The Stove
    
    An option is to clean as stated in .1, then use 'stove polish'
    (graphite) instead of paint.  The paint tends to give off fumes
    for the first few fires (that's my experience with flue pipes &
    new paint).  Polish also looks good but can be a bit messy on the
    hands.
    
    Good Luck!

    I've had a small Lange coal stove installed and in use for the past
    5 or 6 years and I have never cleaned out the stove pipe. I use
    some wood, mostly scraps of 2x4's to start the coal burning but
    otherwise, it's strictly "pea" coal.  I have assumed that since
    there is no creosote to worry about, there won't be any buildup
    in the stove pipe, and, so far, I've been lucky.  It would be 
    difficult to clean out. The bottom of the pipe comes out of the
    rear of the stove and makes a 90 degree turn. The fitting is 
    cemented in place. Therefore, I would have to get on the roof and
    either get on a ladder to reach the top of the pipe, or disassemble
    the upper portions of the insulated pipe to do the cleaning.
    
    What say you? Does a coal stove pipe need cleaning?
    
    Dave
    

    re: cleaning coal stovepipes
    
    Yep.  They fill up with fly ash.  It won't produce a chimney fire like
    creosote, but in excess, can completely clog your flue.
    
    -joet 

    Try using a shop-vac. I've cleaned out stove pipes without removing
    them when I could get a long stick into the pipe to loosen/remove
    the deposits from the pipe, then use the shop-vac to suck out the
    ash etc. (You may need a long extension on the vac.)
    
    /tb/
    

    I have a Vigilant in my chalet and a Defiant at my house. Vermont
    Castings sells the paint for touch up and a kit to replace the caskets.
    i have done both stoves several times over the past few years and
    they come out fine. Also Vermont castings runs specials each year
    and will actually tear down the stove into all the pieces and rebuild
    for something like $50.00. When you paint it the first fire smells
    but its fine after that.

    re: .4  cleaning coal stove pipes
    
    This is my third season burning coal and I have already learn the
    expensive way that coal stove pipes need cleaning and the earlier
    in the season the better.  Fly ash from coal contains sulfer and
    once the heating season is over, rain combining with the fly ash
    forms sulfuric acid.  These can cause corrosion of metal parts
    including chimney liners, stove pipes, and stoves.

    Hi one and all,
         I just want to see if anyone has had any experience with a
    gaget that is mounted within the wood stove which heats the water
    before it goes into the water heater???  
         Are there any pro's or con's to the system????
                                        s.f.
    

    I put a system together and it payed for itself in a couple of years.
    I made a coil out of soft copper tubing, used a circulating pump
    and another HOT water storage tank. The pump turned on when the
    water in the coil got about 180 deg. and circulated it between the
    extra tank and the stove. Makeup water for the existing electric
    hot water tank came out of this preheated storage tank. Worked like
    a charm.
    

    I made one about 4 years ago that I have been using since then.
    It consists of a serpentine loop of threaded iron pipe (solder joints
    will melt inside the stove) inside an Atlanta woodstove with a steel
    firebox.  I picked the Atlanta because it had a large steel firebox
    which could stand the lost space due to all the piping being inside
    and also it could be drilled to get the input/output pipes through.
    
    It is important to use a proper combination pressure/temperature
    relief valve also.  I tied the woodstove loop into by baseboard
    hot water loop, thereby creating a very efficient system of getting
    the heat to the rest of the house without the hot spots and
    stratifiation usually associated with stove heat.  If the wood stove
    is located in the basement the water will thermosiphon through the
    system by itself, if it is in the living area, like mine, it must
    be pumped via an aux circulator pump.  There is a danger with my
    system if the power fails during hot fire. The water inside the
    stove will turn to steam (very dangerous), therefore the relief
    valve.  If that happens, the makeup water coming into the system
    will cool everything down. (It does work, btw)
    
    This system turned out to be so efficient in extracting heat from
    the wood stove that I had trouble keeping the firebox hot enough
    to sustain combustion. So I installed a ball-valve to slow the water
    down so it would spend more time in the firebox (i.e. At full flow,
    my baseboard units dissipated more BTU's than the stove could supply).
    
    A safer, but less efficient way to do the same job is to use copper
    tubing and make a serpentine loop placed in contact with OUTside of 
    the woodstove.  Cover it with insulation then sheet metal. With
    the soldered joints, even outside the woodstove you should not run
    it without water, as this will cause a "meltdown". Its no fun to
    rebuild, I know someone who can attest to that.
    
    I have seen a commercial unit called "fireplate" (?)that looks like
    it would work pretty well.
    
    

    re: .2
    
    4 years ago? It's been longer then that hasn't it? ;)
    
    Charlie

    I guess time flies when your (warm)
    

    Any suggestions to correct this problem would be appreciated.
    We're having a problem with creosote buildup between cleanings.
    The stove pipe is cleaned every 2-3 months.
    The length of 6" diameter pipe is 16 feet uninsulated (inside) and
    10 ft. (insulated) through attic and outside.
    My question concerns reducing the buildup. We're burning DRY hardwood.
    Would a catalytic converter help here? If so where on the pipe should
    it be placed? Any suggestions are appreciated!!!
    
    Rick Shaw..
    

    The easiest thing to do is to run your stove a little hotter.
    Since you probably don't want more heat, you'll have to maintain
    a smaller fire and stoke the stove more frequently, but with
    smaller amounts of wood each time, and keep the draft wider open.
    A smouldering fire, with the draft cut way down so you get a long
    "burn" time, builds up creosote like crazy.  I put "burn" in quotes
    because with that kind of fire it's not really burning.  Make sure
    you have some flames going!
    
    When I was burning wood, I found that a stovepipe thermomenter
    was a big help; try to keep the stovepipe up around 300+ degrees
    at least, better at 400+ degrees, and you won't get much creosote
    at all.  I ran a woodstove constantly for three or four winters, 
    and never had a creosote problem as long as I kept the temperature
    up and the fire really burning.

    Another vote for a stack thermometer; I use mine to read my stove
    the way you read the instrument panel of a car. (Or so I tell
    myself.) I agree with the temperature suggestions in .-1 (I just
    checked mine, and it's running at 450). I clean my chimney (around
    20 feet of 12"x12" clay flue; real slow chimney!) once in the
    fall and once around the first of February. But every chimney
    is different.
    
    When monitoring the temperature, watch it when you shut the stove
    down for an overnight burn (if you run it this way); don't let
    the stack temperature drop below 200-250. Creosote is created
    when the smoke condenses, so the hotter the smoke, the less the
    condensation. (Also, avoid metal flue caps like the plague -
    nothing will condense creosote out of smoke faster than a nice
    20 degree wind going across a metal surface. That was my one
    chimney fire...)

    RE catalytic converters; I haven't got one so can't attest to
    their effectiveness (my next stove will probably have one, if
    only out of respect for my neighbors' health), but they only
    work on smoke that's sufficiently hot - I think 350 and up. So
    the same suggestions would still apply.

>    but they only
>    work on smoke that's sufficiently hot - I think 350 and up. 

Actually it's 600, but the difference is that once the temperature gets that 
high, you can crank the stove way down and it will still stay that high from 
the secondary combustion of the gasses.  We have one and really like it, but
we don't burn enough wood to worry about creosote - we've heated the house so 
far this year with about 2/3 cord of wood.

Paul

	re: catalytic converters...
	
	Besides the  benefit  of  reducing creosote buildup, you get back
	some energy from  the  combustion  of the creosote.  Depending on
	where your stove is  (living  room,  family room, cellar) you may
	want to consider an add-on  coverter  unit.  The downside to this
	is the ugliness of the unit.    Usually,  it's  an  8" section of
	heavy wall flue pipe in which is  a damper that holds a catalytic
	element, generally about 6" in diameter.  Just  plain  ugly,  but
	effective if you obtain a high quality (read expensive) add-on.
	
	The most efficient are those that are built into  (designed into,
	really) the  stove.  Consolidated Duchwest, Vermont Castings, etc
	all have stoves  that  have  combustors  built in.  These are the
	most efficient.
	
	Check with the manufacturer  of  your stove.  It may well be that
	they build an add-on.

    Have you tried just letting the fire roar each morning or whenever?
    When we heated with Wood (7+ years in Vermont), we had to begin
    each morning stoking up the Stove in the kitchen (later the furnace)
    and letting it BURN for 15-30 minutes to make sure the pipes got
    HOT and burned out the buildup.
    
    The advantage was whomever got up after the stoker, had a warm house
    to enjoy. 
    
    By the way, do NOT do this if you cannot stay around to monitor
    the stove and dampen it down if things get too hot.

    
    	I've just moved into my new house and have yet to hook up my wood
    stove.  The house has a FHW heating system, fireplace on the main
    floor, and a wood stove hookup in the basment about 2 feet from  
    the boiler flue.  My question is how close can the wood stove sit
    to the boiler?  The basement is poured concrete and unfinished,
    so I don't have to worry about combustible floor or wall material.
                            
        Do I use some sort of heat shield between the stove and boiler?
    Or move the stove further to the side and have a double bend stove
    pipe?  Or move the stove further from the wall and have a longer
    horizontal run ( but only one 90 degree bend)?  The stove is the
    small CDW Federal with Catalitic, if that makes any difference.
                                          
    Thanks in advance for your experience!
              
    Dean Jahns
    

You should  be asking these questions to the folks in TERPIN::STOVES.  In
fact, there is  probably  all  the  information  you  need already in the
conference.

    I follow STOVES and posted this question there over two weeks
    ago without one response.   I don't think many people are reading
    STOVES now that heating season is almost gone.  Since there is a
    keyword in this conference (heating_wood_coal) and other woodstove
    related topics, I figured why not?
    
    -dj-

    As I recall (possibly in error), there's a 3' minimum clearance
    requirement between a woodstove and a combustible surface.  Since
    your boiler isn't combustible, 3' clearance ought to be plenty.
    If you want it closer, a simple sheetmetal guard between the two
    ought to satisfy any requirements.
    Your best bet is probably to call your local fire department, since
    I expect they are supposed to inspect and approve any woodstove
    installations, and see what they say. 

      Re: .3
    
      In Mass., the building inspector inspects woodstove installations
    (or maybe just in Shrewsbury :^) ).  I agree, the person that will
    ultimately perform the inspection should be consulted for this info
    as it can vary from town to town.
    
    -Jim

A chimney (acording to mass law) is part of the structure so the building 
inspector has jurisdiction. The fire department can give advice and do an
inspection and in some cases the building inspector wants the FD to do it, but 
the fire department does not have jurisdiction . Also you should talk to your
insurance company, there have been cases (so I have heard) of only partial
payment being made because of a fire from an uninspected woodstove.

    Actually, I was more concerned with the effect the heat from the
    wood stove wood have on the boiler controls, circulators, etc.
    
    I have now temporarily hooked it up with putting it further into
    the room (with a 6 foot horizontal run to the wall flue.  This gives
    it about a 3 foot diaganol distance to the boiler.  The radiant
    heat seems to make no difference in the feel of the metal surfaces
    of the boiler.
    
    Can a wall built with metal studs and sheet rock, being
    non-combustible, be as close to a stove as you want it, without
    breaking some code or other?
    
    -dj- 

    The paper covering on the sheetrock might be a problem.  For that
    application, I don't think sheetrock would be "incombustible". 
    Even if it met the code, the heat from the stove would almost
    certainly damage the paper surface over time.
    Howe about metal studs, wonderboard, and tile (or something)?
    (Wonderboard is basically cement, isn't it, and totally fireproof?)

This specific issue appears not to have been discussed elsewhere 
in this conferenece so I'm entering a new note.

I'm in the process of building a new house and was planning on
having a 3 flue chimney installed (one for an oil fired furnace, 
one for our first floor fireplace and one additional flue for 
a future cellar wood stove).  I was under the impression that
each of these devices would require a seperate flue.  However,
our mason suggested that the furnace and the wood stove can
share a single flue if both flue openings are close (12"-18")
and if the shared flue is of sufficient size.  What are the
requirements for flue usage and is this a common approach?
Is this regulated strictly by local zoning codes?


Larry Biro

    I'm not up on the exact details, but there are situations in
    which you can (leaglly) share a flue between some devices.
    It would be cheaper, probably.  Personally, however, I'd go 
    with separate flues, if possible, and be done with it.

    
    
    	check with the building inspector or fire marshell, seeing they
    will be the ones that will have the final say.

    
    
    I have lived in 3 towns in which you are aloud to use 2 sources
    in one flue. (So. Hadley, Pepperell, and Ashby Ma. )
    
    There are two rules to follow....
    
    1) the wood/coal input must be X inches BELOW the oil input
       check building codes for X
    
    2) the square inch area of the two inputs must not exceed the square
       inch area of the flue. 
    
    check with your town codes . I have never had a problem using two
    inputs in one flue.
    
    Randy
    

I've had my oil furnace and wood stove sharing one flue for ten years.
The fire chief came out and inspected it; his biggest concern was that 
all joints be screwed together and the stove safely spaced away from the 
oil lines and the walls.

I had my insurance man come out; he made note of it, and assured me there
is no problem.

I *know* there's no problem, because it works. The wood stove has black
iron water pipes inside; the hot water is stored in a tank, and drawn
from to heat the house if the temperature is high enough. Otherwise the
furnace comes on.

What I have found (a number of people have come to see my system, with
the intention of copying it) is that regulations vary 
        from state to state
                from county to county
                        from town to town
                        
...and to see how enforcement of those regulations varies, re-enter that
loop.

There's no common denominator. I did it in Amherst NH.

Art

    If you go to your town/city hall, they'll have a copy of the
    MASS or NH codes. In Mass, there is a formula you can use
    for multiple appliances on the same flue. It has to do with
    the height of the flue, the BTU output of the appliances,
    and the diameter of the connecting pipe.
    
    No matter where you are, you at least need a Class A flue and
    the solid flue appliance must enter the flue at or some distance
    below the oil/gas appliance. But it (the codes) sure can vary
    between states and municipalities.
    
    Charlie

    
>    the solid flue appliance must enter the flue at or some distance
>    below the oil/gas appliance. 
    
Anyone know the logic behind this requirement?  Why does the solid
fuel appliance have to be below the the oil/gas?  Is there potential
that incomplete combustion of the oil/gas can ignite?

Larry

    
    	I did enter a note in this conference concerning this very topic
    	about July of 1987... Oh well can't find it now. Anyway my
    	understanding was that the law varies town to town, but I know
    	that in Bolton the rule is that the combined area of the 
    	two separate flues can not be greater than the area of the
    	single flue into which they feed. Also, if an oil fired furnace
    	and a wood stove are on the same flue, the furnace must be vented
    	above the stove, and must be at least 12" above the stove flue.
    	I'd also check the WOOD_STOVES notes conference... on CRYSTL::
    	(?).                                         
    
    /Kevin

    Funny..I thought that sharing a flue with a oil/gas burner and a
    woodstove was a no-no. What about gas burners with pilot lights
    and a wood stove, or do gas burners have elctronic ignitions. Or
    a gas burner that turns on without a spark/flame, fills the burner
    and flue with gas with a wood stove burning away next door...sounds
    funny to me.
    
    ~jeff

    The reason the wood/coal stove must be vented at or below (and
    apparently this is different in different places) the gas/oil
    burner has to do with monoxide. If the wood/coal stove plugs
    the flue, due to falling creasote or ash, you'll know it because
    the house will fill with smoke -- it is not insidious. If the
    gas/oil burner was vented below the wood/coal stove, it would
    happily fill the house with monoxide and kill you. The Mass
    code (which apparently can be overridden by municipalities)
    says 'at or below' for this reason -- I don't remember if there
    was a specified amount 'below' but a foot sounds good.
    
    Obviously if you're running a solid fuel appliance you must be
    more careful, and should have a clean-out door at the base of
    the flue and you should check it. If you're burning wood, you
    should be doubly careful as you can generate a flue fire with
    a wood stove (NOT with a coal stove).
    
    But, assuming you follow code and screw together ALL flue pipes
    (both wood/coal AND gas/oil), watch your distances to flamable
    surfaces, and maintain the flue and pipes, it's quite safe and
    done all the time. I've been running a coal stove into the same
    flue as a gas furnace and later a gas boiler for years with
    no problems. (I used to be a prof fireman and am aware of the
    myriad ways you can burn a house down.)
    
    Charlie

    In Fitchburg, Ma., a gas furnace and wood stove cannot go together
    on the same flue at all.  With an oil furnace, I believe it can,
    but I would find out what the Fire department has to say about it
    first.  I do know that the metal pipes for the exhaust of both
    furnace and for the wood stove have to be secured with sheet metal
    screws.

    
    	My building inspector allowed me to put a natural gas hot water
    heater and an oil fired FHA burner on the same flue.  I just had
    to vent the gas above the oil.  The reasoning was that the gas pilot
    light could go off, pouring gas into the flue.  If it is vented
    below the oil fired burner, the burner could go on and ignite the
    gas.
    					=Ralph=

    
    Yes, connecting a wood/coal stove to the same flue is ok if
    nothing goes wrong with the oil burner. However, what happens
    if your oil burner fills up with oil and unburned fumes. I'd
    be very concerned about a spark or a chimney fire getting down
    to the chamber. Even though the flashpoint of #2 oil is 115F
    I still wouldn't take the chance. Spend the extra $$$ and be
    safe.
    
    Joe

                <<< TERPIN::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]STOVES.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< MOTHER NATURE'S WARMTH >-
================================================================================
Note 338.0          Surdaic installation advice (yet another)         No replies
27958::DONNELLY "Take my advice- Don't listen to me" 23 lines   1-NOV-1988 23:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm in the process of installing a Surdiac coal stove in the basement into 
a fireplace and have some questions.

The basic set up is like this:  Stove (5" pipe), 5" barametric damper, 
length of horizontal pipe, 90 deg. elbow, length of vetical pipe, 45 deg 
elbow, new damper plate with 1 ft. pipe cemented in it, another elbow, a 
length of pipe to get about 4 ft. up to the 6x10 inch flue tiles.

This sound right?
Does the installation need to be inspected?  By who?  At what point?
What's a ceramic thimble and should I cement one into the damper plate 
                                          instead of a std black pipe?
Does the pipe need to continue up to the fluetiles?
How do I set the barametric damper?
Does anyone have an owners/operators manual for a Surdiac 516?
And lastly, is it ok for the glass to be clamped tightly with a new gasget 
or does it need to be loose for expansion?

Any other recomendations welcome,
Craig

Anyone who answers all questions gets a free piece of coal through 
interoffice mail.

    I, too, have asked the following in the STOVES conference with no
    response.  I've also looked at note 1590 in this conference, which
    seems related, but I've let the titles of the topics influence my
    placement of this note.

    Anyway, our stove pipe connects to the flue through what looks like
    flue liner -- pinkish-red, roughly rectangular.  The pipe is 7 inches
    in diameter, while the flue liner is 7 inches square.  As we all know,
    you can't get a square peg into a round hole, so we have gaps in the
    four corners.  Currently the gaps are plugged with some sort of
    insulating material; I'm not sure whether it's fiberglass or ceramic
    wool or rock wool or whatever. 
    
    What's the best way to plug these gaps?  Do we need to put some
    sort of trim ring around the stove pipe, and if so, how do we fasten
    the ring to the wall?
    
    Also, how far should the stove pipe extend into the connections.
    It's pretty clear that the horizontal flue liner extends all the
    way to the flue; I hope it terminates at the wall of the flue and
    doesn't extend inside.  The stove pipe extends about halfway into
    the horizontal liner, giving us a nice black coating on the inner
    half of the liner after only two uses.  I presume this is normal,
    since the vertical chimney lining no doubt gets its own coating,
    but I wonder whether we should replace the horizontal pipe with
    a longer piece that will go most of the way to the flue.
    
    Thanks,
    
       Gary

    
    First the general information ...
    
    If you don't have a detailed understanding of stove installations, you
    should read up on the subject to make sure you do it right and do it
    legal. You can get a great overview of installations from the
    Consolidated Dutch West Catalog with installation planner. Call CDW in
    Plymouth MA and have a catalog sent out. Read through the STOVES
    notes file for lots of additional helpful information. 
                                 
    Second, the inspection issue ... 
    
    You should have your installation inspected to protect your insurance.
    Call your town hall to see who does them in your town. I wouldn't think
    yours had been before, since the open gaps don't sound like they would
    pass inspection. There are a variety of code requirements that you
    should meet. Your local inspector should have a handout or advice to
    make sure what you do is ok. 

    Third, some specific hints ...
    
    If this is a stove to fireplace installation, get a kit and/or
    parts from a stove shop to install. If it is a stove to chimney
    installation read on ...
       
        
    >    What's the best way to plug these gaps? 
    
    I had a similar installation. I used masonary cement to fill the large
    gaps and furnace cement to seal the pipe to the new cement. Clean
    everything first and wet the surfaces to help the cement stick. 
    
    > Do we need to put some
    >sort of trim ring around the stove pipe, and if so, how do we fasten
    >the ring to the wall?                                          
    
    They sell trim rings for stove pipes that will cover the entry of the
    pipe into the wall. They slide over the pipe and stay in place with
    spring clips. You can get a variety of plain black round or decorative
    square trim rings at most wood stove shops. The 7" might be a problem,
    6 or 8 is standard. 
    
    > Also, how far should the stove pipe extend into the connections.
    
    I read a lot of material on installations and I've never seen a spec
    on this. My building inspector didn't seem to care. Running it all the
    way in wouldn't be a bad idea. 
    

    re: .10
    
    I have the CDW catalog, and I've read through the STOVES notes file. I
    also have the book "Wood Heat Safety." The stove has already been
    inspected and a permit issued -- makes me wonder about the whole
    inspection process, though to be fair, it was probably the former
    inspector who issued the permit.  The current one seems much more
    reliable.  I still need to pick up a copy of the permit, though, to
    send to the insurance company. 
    
    The installation is stove to chimney.  The gaps are small enough
    that we should be able to get away with just using furnace cement,
    though I wonder how hard it will be to undo this when it comes time
    to remove the pipe for cleaning (and especially when it comes time
    to remove the pipe for installing an oil burner).
    
    We picked up a cheap 7" trim black ring at Spags.  It's purpose in life
    seems to be just to help seal the openings; a concrete basement wall
    hardly needs decoration.  The trim ring seems to stay in place quite
    well by friction, since the pipe is slightly deformed where it enters
    the flue liner.
    
    Since this is going to be replaced anyway, I won't worry about how
    far the pipe goes into the connection.  I feel better knowing that
    it's not critical, and I see no reason to spend money on a longer
    pipe.
    
    Thanks for the info,
    
       Gary

something I once wrote in here years ago may be worth repeating...

BEWARE OF SPAGS for stove pipes!!!

A number of years ago I wanted to save some money and bought my triple wall pipe
at SPAGS.  when the time came to sell the house, the inspector (for the buyer)
pointed out that not only had the pipe rotted and if I had a chimney fire the
house probably would have went with it, but the pipe was definately NOT legal.

Incorrectly thinking all pipe was the same, I had simply bought what spags was
selling.  I think (but can't be certain), that part of the problem was the 
gauge of the pipe - it was too thin.  

-mark

    
    I planning on putting my wood/coal stove in my basement
    and buying a small wood stove to put in my den to replace
    the other. My question. 
    I have one chimney could I hook both stove into it? 
    
    
    Steve
    

-mark

    
    				why?
    

    I think it's illegal in MA. You can check with your local building
    inspector (oh, oh, him again) to make sure. Usually it's one
    appliance per flue. Two in one can cause safety and draft problems. 

    
    Re: .3
    
    This is not always illegal in Massachusetts.  I know of someone
    in Mass. who has his furnace and his wood stove on the same flue, 
    and the inspector OK'd it.  I'd ask the building inspector.
    Also you might want to look in the STOVES notes conference.  I
    bet this has been discussed in there at length.
    
    -tm
    

    Topic 2638, "Furnace and wood stove on same flue?", may contain
    pertinent information.

    Two wood stoves on the same flue does not appear to be a problem;
    it should work O.K.  But, a gas furnace and wood stove on the same
    flue is a definite no no; also very dangerous.  A oil furnace and 
    a wood stove on the same flue, I don't know about the laws on that, 
    but I would not since the wood stove would interfere with the 
    normal draft of the oil furnace, causing improper burn.  
    
    Many cities and towns (maybe a state law too) require inspection
    of a new wood stove installation.  As already mentioned, your local
    fire department will help.
    
    
    

    
    I have had wood stoves on both a gas furnace and an oil furnace.
    For gas you connect above the gas flue and for oil connect below.
    Of course check local codes and have it inspected !!
    The other consideration is flue size, the rule is, the square
    inch area of the pipes should not exceed the area of the chimmeny
    flue.... in other words, don't overload your flue !
    
    ace
    

    
    My question is:
    		   I want to burn COAL in my basement and WOOD in my
    		   my den if need be.
    My house is all electric I dont have a furnace.
                                     
    Steve

	Can't tell you about  the legality check with you "Building Inspector".
	A legal installation keeps you protected by your fire insurance.

	If legal or you want to do it anyway... I would look into a 
	barometric damper for the coal stove.  Since wood usually burn
	much faster you may indeed experience more draft than your coal
	stove is designed for thus causing a run away.  Which in turn
	could turn the coal grate into a pool of liquid cast iron.  Not
	quite that bad but would likely cause some severe warpage or
	cracking rendering it less effecient.

Good Luck

    re .9
    
    This insurance vs inspection code issue was debated in another note at
    great length.  
    
    I do believe after checking this out with some insurance people
    that the commonly held conception in this file that insurance will
    not pay if your house burns down because of a code violation is
    just not true.
    
    You fire insurance should protect you regardless of inspections
    unless there is blatant fraud involved (you violated code knowing
    it would cause a loss).
    

>        that the commonly held conception in this file that insurance will
>    not pay if your house burns down because of a code violation 
    
    
    I think the misconception is propogated by chimney sweeps,
    electricians, plumbers, building inspectors, etc.
    
    If your insurance company won't pay for a loss because of a code
    violation, you need a new insurance company.

    > If your insurance company won't pay for a loss because of a code
    > violation, you need a new insurance company.


    Yes, and hopefully you will have survived to find a new one...
    This is one "code" I'd pay particular attention to.  I've seen too
    many grisly stories on the nightly news...

    My only point is that insurance is not a factor in deciding to what
    extent you will follow code.   Most codes make sense and should
    be followed for reasons more important than insurance.

    From what I've heard the main problem is draft, although there can be
    more impoortant problem, depending on what you are mixing.
    
    A chimney or stove pipe is an essential component of any combustion
    system such as a furnace, stove, or fireplace.  The hot flue or pipe
    creates a draft that pulls the exhaust gases out of the combustion
    chamber and fresh air in.
    
    If you eliminate the draft, such as by having another flue opening for
    air to enter the flue, then at the very least you can get poor stove or
    furnace performance, and at worst you can get harmful gasses in your
    house.  Coal is particularly dangerous because it can produce carbon
    monoxide and has wiped out more than one family who used an improperly
    vented coal burning appliance.
    
    Wood and oil are safer -- no CO, but gas, in case it somehow gets
    loose unlit, can also be a hazard.
    
    I would feel free to put two *wood* stoves on the same flue, provided
    each one was either burning or closed up air tight at all times,
    although strictly speaking, it's still not a good idea.
    

    Some of the replys in this subject are out dated.  Especially .10
    that says you can connect an oil burner and wood fired system into the
    same flu in Fitchburg.  My father-in-law is a retired contractor from
    Fitchburg.  He just installed a Newmac wood/oil system in my home and
    has installed over 50 of these units all over the state of Mass and
    N.H. and the inspector okeyed every one of them.  There is only one vent 
    into the flu that is fed by both the woodburner and oilburner.  The
    system was purchased in Fitchburg and I don't think the BBB would let
    a dealer sell a system that did not meet local codes.
    
    Mark

    re: .13
    
    I doubt that .10 is out dated.  It''s just that there's a huge
    difference between a combination system and two separate systems
    connected to the same flue.  Just because the combination system is ok
    doesn't mean that separate systems are also ok.  The combination system
    is designed for that purpose (with a price to match), while the
    separate systems have no features to protect against the hazards of
    hooking the two systems into the same flue.
    
    The BBB neither allows nor disallows businesses from selling anything. 
    They mediate disputes between business and customers, and that's all. 
    
    Since local codes very widely, there's no reason to prevent a Fitchburg
    business from selling something that might be against Fitchburg code,
    but legal in other municipalities.
    
       Gary

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?
2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?
3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?
4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?
5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?
6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?
7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

[also posted in OLUT::STOVES]

    
    1.   coal    -   primary 1st floor, secondary rest of house
    2.   oil  FHW
    3.   7 years
    4.   2 - 3 tons
    5a.   Oct-Nov (depends on weather)   5b. yes
    6.  ???   forgot the rest of the questions
    
    I did burn wood for a short time, too expensive, too much work.
    I own a coal/wood stove, I do burn wood this time of year and in early
    spring to take the chill out of the house.
    

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?

	We heated a 'older' house in Concord, NH for 6 years almost 
	exclusively with wood.  After moving to a newer home (age 11)
	in Merrimack, NH in 1985 we continued to heat with wood for 3 years
	then switched to coal for 1 year.

	We started with an All-Nighter wood stove in Concord but it just 
	didn't work out.  I traded that in for a Tempwood which we used both 
	in Concord and Merrimack.  Two years ago I purchased a Surdiac coal 
	stove.



2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?

	In Concord we had forced hot water (old radiators) heated by oil.  The
	boiler was a converted coal unit.  During out tenure we did have to 
	replace the burner.

	The house in Merrimack was built with baseboard electric heat.  

3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?

	6 years in Concord, NH.  - wood
	3 years in Merrimack, NH. - wood
	<2 years in Merrimack, NH. - coal

4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?

	6+ cords wood/year in Concord, NH.
	3+ cords wood/year in Merrimack, NH.
	?  coal / year in Merrimack, NH.  At this point I should mention that
		the coal stove was NOT a real successful adventure.  Coal is
		a much more tempermental fuel than wood and I had trouble 
		keeping the coal stove going.

5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?

	Last year I installed a force hot air system heated by propane.  I
	expect to use the wood stove infrequently this year, mostly to add 
	heat in the basement when we hit the real cold spell in January.
	
	In the past I would start up the wood stove in October on the cold 
	nights and usually start in full time after Thanksgiving.

	The cold stove would only run well once the real cold set in for 
	several days at a time.  Two years ago I used the wood stove until
	the real cold weather came in (December), then fired up the coal stove
	for the colder months of January and February.

6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?

	My first year I cut wood from a friends lot north of Concord and 
	hauled it in a small pickup.

	The second year through the eighth year I purchased wood by the log
	truck load every other year.  That way I was able to season the wood 
	before burning.

	I've split most of the wood by hand (12 lb maul & splitting wedges).
	One year I rented a hydraulic splitter with a neighbor but found it
	uncomfortable to work with and not that much faster.  
	

7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

	I really didn't like the coal much at all.  On the few times the stove 
	worked well it was beautiful, great soft heat that was extremely even 
	and comfortable.  But I disliked having to fiddle with it so much to 
	keep it running and relighting was a pain.  The coal dust was also
	irritating in that it doesn't clean up easily.

	Wood is a different story.  After several years I just didn't want to 
	expend that much time and energy.  I still cut and split between 1 and 
	2 cords a year but I got tired of the time required and the pressure of 
	trying to make sure I had enough to go the whole season.  I also looked 
	at the economics of it and found the savings questionable based on my 
	needs and changing lifestyle.  In Concord we spent most of the winter 
	around the house with small children.  They're no longer toddlers and 
	our schedules have us out of the house more often now, therefore it's 
	not as convenient to keep the wood stove stoked.

	Last year we installed a propane fueled forced hot air system.  The 
	convenience of a themostatically controlled system that requires
	little effort on my part allows me the time and energy for other
	projects and activities.  I still have the Tempwood and expect to use 
	it occasionally for extra heat in the basement and for 'atmosphere'.
	It's also my backup heat should we lose electricity in the winter.  
	(The furnace does require electricity for ignition and the blower.)
	
	As for the coal stove I'll probably sell it or trade it for something 
	like a radial arm saw but just haven't got around to it yet, too many 
	other projects and activities right now...

	-Stan

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?
    
    - Yes.
    
2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?
    
    -Our backup is oil FHA.
    
    
3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?
    
    - 7 years, at 3 different locations.
    
4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?
     
    - between 3 and 4 cords.
    
5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?
    
    - We start keeping the wood stove going in early to mid November. Prior
    to that, the Oil FHA is used for heat (also some passive solar help
    from large south facing windows.
    
6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?
    
    - I split a 10 cord grapple load with my neighbor, and cut and split it
    myself.
    
    
7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

    - I haven't switched, but I may try coal at some point, mostly because
    there's less work and/or expense involved in obtaining fuel.
    
    
    Why are you taking a survey?
    
    
    /Ske
    
    

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?

	Secondary, although the primary system rarely comes on during
	the heating season.

2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?

	Oil-fired FHA

3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?

	This will be the sixth season.

4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?

	4-5 cords per year plus 225 gal oil

5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?

	Mid- to late October until mid-April, augmented by the oil heat
	during times away (vacation, visiting, etc). Oil heat cuts in
	occasionally in the dead of winter after the stove burns out. We
	try to keep the stove running 24 hours a day to minimize oil
	consumption.

6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?

	I purchase cut/split/delivered at the end of the heating season
	to allow it to dry before the new season starts. I've found that
	about 6 months drying time is sufficient for my needs. I built a
	6-cord capacity woodshed which seems to augment the drying
	process. BTW, I used to buy 4' splits and cut it down myself at
	and realized a considerable saving; $70/cord vs. $85/cord.
	However, you may not be able to find a dealer willing to sell in
	4' lengths. In fact, mine first quit selling the 4-footers, then
	quit the wood business altogether. 

7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

	Two reasons. First, the price of oil and the insulation of the
	house made it difficult. Wood heat was clearly
	cheaper, even after factoring in the cost of the stove and flue.
	Second, the previous owner had a family room put on, but
	neglected to tap into the existing heating system to warm it
	up. The only way to heat that room was to kindle a fire in the
	fireplace or direct woodstove heated air up the cellar stairs.


8.  Given the choice of wood or coal, which would you choose?

        Let's face it, messing around with 4-5 cords of wood per year
        has worn out its charm. If given the chance to do it all again,
        I'd choose a coal burner and augment it with the primary system,
        whatever it is. A consideration for any wood/coal heating system
        is the 'dirt' they create. Put a coal stove in the main living
        area, you must be willing to live with the fine ash it creates.
        Same thing with a wood stove, however, the ash is a little
        easier to manage. My stove is in the basement, so it isn't that
        much of a problem. 


Chris

re: .4
>    Why are you taking a survey?
>    /Ske

Sorry, you can't add a question to *my* survey.




Actually, we're coming up on our first wood-stove heating season and was
curious when others started heating.  That led to wanting a little background
("*I* don't fire it up until it reaches 20 below") to "consider the source"
which led to other "just curious" questions.

But, Paul, (re: .2) three logs takes the chill off at night?!?  What's normal
room temperature - 37 degrees?  My stove absorbs at least that many before it
radiates any to the room.  (Could be my novice-hood in evidence.)

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?

   Wood heat all winter, we have F-G-E as a ULT. and have electic heat

2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?
See above


3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?

  5 years

4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?

    About 6-7 Cord of wood

5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?

When the temp stays below 40 degrees

6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?

I  buy it from a local person cut and split at 24 inch lengths at $85 per

7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

Wood only...

            Rick

	This topic has been covered in great depth in the STOVES
file.  

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?

	Tertiary if there is sun during the day since our home is
	passive solar.

2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?

	Radient electric heat in ceilings (never used).

3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?

	This will make winter number nine.

4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?

	Average of one to two tons, depending of course on the 
	amount of sunshine, average degree days, etc.

5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?

	First fire tends to be sometime in early November.

6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?

	Not applicable.

7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

	We found burning wood takes too much effort (lot of feeding, etc.)
	for the size of stove we utilize.  Our stove is in our family room
	and burning wood made the room too hot.  With coal, after learning
	how ;-), it is very easy to keep the fire burning at almost any
	desired temp (within the stove's range) for more than 12 hours 
	without any fussing.  The heat from a coal stove tends to be
	much more even than the heat from a wood stove.  (Our coal stove,
	which heats our entire home, is the second smallest coal stove
	made - with a hopper which holds a maximum of 20 pounds but is
	built to hold 15 pounds.)

	IMHO, stoves are good for either coal or wood.  None of our friends
	who have purchase wood stoves with 'coal converters' have been able
	to burn coal as comfortably as those with real coal stoves.  Friends
	with coal stoves have not been very successful burning wood.

[also posted in OLUT::STOVES]

Two important questions for wood-burners have been omitted from the survey:

8.  Do you clean your own chimney, or have somebody else to it?
9.  How often is your chimney cleaned?

...

1.  Is wood/coal heat your primary/secondary/sole source of heat?

[Wood] Secondary upstairs (via hot air rising), primary at the lower level.

2.  What is your backup source of heat (if any) - oil, gas, electric, solar,
    forced-hot-air, forced-hot-water, other?

Other source is oil-fired hot-water baseboards.

3.  How long have you heated with wood/coal?

Oh, around 10 years or so.

4.  How much wood/coal have you used per heating season?

About 3-4 cords.

5.  When do you start burning wood/coal?  Do you augment begin/end of season
    with your backup heat?

Depends partly on when I get around to the fall chimney/stove cleaning
exercise, how much wood I've got, and how cold it gets. Sometime around
mid-November to the first of December. I try to put it off...

6.  If wood, how do you get your supply - cut/split your own, buy logs and
    cut/split, buy cut-and-split, other?

I've done 'em all. Lately, I've been buying it pre-split, and supplementing with
wood from my property which I've felled, cut, and split.

7.  If you personally have heated both with wood and coal, what were/are
    your reasons for switching?

N/A

8.  Do you clean your own chimney, or have somebody else to it?

Clean it myself. Couple of unfriendly cats in a burlap bag lowered down ... well,
actually, I use fiberglass rods and a "brush" which really is a set of steel
plates.

9.  How often is your chimney cleaned?

Twice a year - around the first of February, and before the first fire in the 
fall.

    Has anyone been able to get on OLUT::STOVES?
    
    Charlie
    

    
    re:-1
    
      YUP!
    
     This morning...
    
    Steve

    one thing left out of the survey:  How often have you repainted the
    ceilings?  Have you noticed that the ceiling needs repainting after
    a few years?  (sometimes only one).
    
    ed

    
    	Re: .13
    
    	Good question that I'd love to hear answers to.  I'd like to
    install a fireplace insert, but my wife's main objection (well, besides
    having a very hot object around a ten month old baby -- but Becky won't
    be 10 months old forever...) is the ash.  She thinks that once we start
    heating with an insert, the walls will never be clean again.  Comments
    on this?  Thanks.
    
    								-craig

I've been heating with coal for over 2 years now. Our family room 
has white walls and a white drop ceiling.

I've noticed no discoloration so far.

daryll

    re: painting
    
    I've been using a wood stove as a secondary (primary when I'm
    home and willing to fool with it...) source of heat for over 4
    years, and haven't noticed any particular 'sooting' problems on
    the walls or ceilings (all white).
    
    deb
    

Actually, that would be a good topic for a new note.  Feel free to go ahead and 
start one.

Paul

    Does anyone have any experience with corn stoves?  I've looked 
    through both this notes file, and through the STOVES conference.  
    So far, there doesn't seem to be much discussion on them.
    
    Someone I know has a brother who bought one last year, and thinks 
    that they are great.  The advantages of self-feeders, no dry air, 
    etc sound good.  But, the other day I stopped into a stove shop, 
    and the salesman there wasn't all that sold on corn or pellet 
    stoves.  He said that the hassle of storing the pellets is too 
    difficult.  Since they primarily deal in propane logs, I'm sure 
    there is some biased.
    
    Anyway, any comments on corn stoves would be appreciated.

I don't understand what you mean when you say an advantage of self feeders is 
no dry air?  Could you explain?

Other than that, somehow I would feel strange burning food, even if it is only 
animal food.  If I really wanted to go with pellet sized fuel, I would prefer 
wood pellets.  And cost?  Especially with all the droughts in the corn belt.

Anyone out there know anything about the price fluctuations in corn versus wood?  

    What's a corn stove?

	But seriousely, can we return to the subject at hand?  I've seen these
ads and was wondering the same questions about how well they operate.

								-c

	Well, it looks like, so far, there aren't too many people who have 
	these things.  For those of you who are interested, I'll try to 
	tell you as much as I have gathered about corn stoves so far...

	I've looked at both wood pellet stoves, and corn stoves.  They 
	basically look like a wood/coal stove from the outside.  Inside 
	is a bit different.  They have an area where the pellets of wood, 
	or the kernels of corn burn.  Although this area is small, they 
	are still a good sized unit, since around this area is a venting 
	system, to insure that the heat is well circulated, and not wasted.  

	A venting system also works to keep the flow of air going through 
	the burn area.  Ventilation is all done from the outdoors.  I think 
	that there is an inner and outer tube, with the air coming in through 
	the larger, outside tube, and the warm air returning through the 
	smaller, inside tube.  Although I assume most people would vent this 
	through their chimney, it is supposed to be safe enough to run through 
	a clothes-dryer-type vent.  

	I was told that due to this outside venting system, and the fact 
	that corn released moisture, the air would not get as dry.  I 
	noticed that the air in the store was pretty nice.  Sure beats 
    	what I get with my wood stove!

	As far as providing fuel, there is a bin which is above an automatic
	feeder.  Depending upon the level that you set it at, it will feed 
	the pellets at some low or high interval.  This way, you can keep 
	the house warm while you are away.  Because of the venting systems 
	and the feeder, I think the fire would go out if there was a loss of 
	power.

	There are several advantages to burning corn.  The two that were 
	most appealing to me were first that it burns MUCH cleaner than 
	either wood or coal (less pollution).  When I looked at the exhaust 
	on the stove at the store, there was no sign of smoke at all.  The 
	second advantage is the fact that corn grows so quickly and easily.  
	It can be replenished MUCH faster than both wood or coal.  This means 
	less trees need to be cut down, and less strip mining.
    
    	My friend, whose brother has one (in New York), claims that he 
    	spends about the same price per month burning corn, as I spend 
    	on wood.

	A place on 101A in Amherst, NH just started selling these last year.  
	When I first saw the sign, I thought it was some sort of joke.  But, 
	I've been in, and was impressed.  I'm just concerned about something 
	that doesn't have much of a reputation yet.  I haven't heard anything 
	negative, except that storing the corn might be a hassle (they sell 
	it, or you can buy from any farm supply, like Blue Seal).  But then, 
	buying and stacking wood hasn't been a whole lot of fun, either.  The 
	Corn Stove store had a coupon in one of the papers last week, for $200 
	off list price.  Last time I was there, these ran about $800.  So, a 
	Springtime break of 25% isn't bad.

    $800???  I looked into these a few months back, and the cost thru the
    dealer in NH was $1850 for their smaller model.  I'd be interested to
    hear which model sells for $800.
    
    Someone asked about the price of corn a few notes back.  My local blue
    seal dealer sells it for about $11/l00 lbs.  From what I heard, the
    stove would burn approx. 100/lbs per week.
    
    

    re: .7
    
    $11/week.  That's interesting.  Do you know how the BTU output
    compares to a comparably sized, air-tight box stove burning, say,
    seasoned red oak?
    
    Erick

    re .7:   
    
    	YIKES!  Sorry about that.  I was looking at a wood stove 
    replacement at the same time, and got the prices mixed up.  I 
    think you are correct... when I looked at them, they were $1800, 
    not $800.  Hope I didn't get your hopes up too high.

    FWIW, I saw a good demo of a "corn" stove. The principle is relatively
    simple, and uses two separate and unrelated air systems.
    
    For combustion, corn is automatically fed into a small burn-pot about
    8-9" square, from a hopper filled from the corn source, usually
    corn that is purchsed by the bag/bushel. One of the air systems is used
    in providing forced air for combustion, and the combustion gases are 
    vented directly outside via an inner flue; the air feed for this
    combustion is drawn from outside via an outer flue which surrounds the 
    inside one. Sort of a concentric flue arrangement, where cold air is
    drawn through the outer flue (and in this way provides for "zero"
    clearance to any wall) passed through the burn-pot and out the central
    or inside flue. This way also provides for no air to be drawn from
    inside the house to support combustion, as happens with most
    conventional heating systems, and probably also support the claim of
    leaving the moist air in the house.
    
    The second air system uses a blower to circulate the heat generated
    from combustion into your living space, as used in some wood or coal
    burners.
    
    One glitch is that with "no electricity - no corn burner", and prices are
    still high. For those who want to burn corn, you may want to touch
    base with local farmers - give them a little more than market price and they
    will love you, especially if you don't ask for a receipt. One caution,
    most "cattle-corn" is silaged where the whole plant is harvested
    including corn/leaves/stock - (wrong stuff)look for those who combine to 
    get the kernels only. 
    
    BTW the waste product of an average burner is a daily chunk of ash that 
    would fit in an average soup bowl.

	We currently have two wood stoves.  One is in the finished basement, 
	and the other is in the first floor living room.  This is our primary 
	heat, with electric baseboards, for a two-story dormered cape.

	Lately, we have been looking into wood pellet stoves, and are about 
	convinced to replace one of the (old and inefficient) wood stoves 
	with a pellet burner.  Both stoves are on the south side of the house, 
	and adding something to the north isn't reasonable right now.  Still, 
	the biggest problem is directing the head to the north (cold) side.

	The question is this.  Which one do we replace?  If we replace the 
	stove in the basement, we've thought of putting vents in the floor, 
	to try and more evenly heat a larger area.  If we replace on the first 
	floor, we would get more direct heat in the primary living areas.

	I'm guessing that once we have the convenience of automatic feeding 
	with the pellet stove, the remaining wood stove will almost never 
	get fired up.  So, we need to decide where would be the more 
	efficient location.  

	Any suggestions?

It would seem to me that if you are not going to use the second stove, then 
you would want to replace the living room stove.  This would cause the first
floor to be heated along with passing the heat around.  The basement stove
will heat the basement first and then pass heat upstairs.  To improve the 
efficiency of the stove on the first floor, then try putting small fans in 
the doorways.  This could help circulate the heat.  I have heard of homes
with the fans built in above the doorways to aid this.  But that would be
more of a major change.


Ed..

    
    
    	Placing the stove in the living area may heat the living space but 
    	what about the water pipes in the basement ?
    
    	I've got a 2 year old split with electric baseboard and before
    	we got a wood stove the temperature in the cellar would drop to	
    	around 32 degrees..... (that's when I bought the stove)
    
    	I guess you could pull the insulation off the ceiling in the 
    	basement but the floors would still be pretty cold....
    
    						Mike
    						----
    
    
    						

	We put in the order yesterday, for our wood pellet stove.  It 
	won't be delivered for three weeks, so we can still change our 
	minds on the location.  So far, it looks like we've decided to 
	put it in the living room.  If this doesn't work out, we can 
	always switch it later.  

	The more we thought about it, the more it seems that a lot of 
	heat would be wasted getting the basement warm enough to send 
	sufficient heat up to the rest of the house.  If we had venting, or 
	pulled out the insullation, it may have ended up down there.

	Does anyone know the "official" rules on open venting systems?  
	I understand that the fire marshall isn't too crazy about the 
	idea of adding open vents between floors and walls, to circulate 
	the air.  But, what about the insurance companies?  Is this a 
	"recommended" limit, or an "official" one?

I have a question that is a bit different than two stoves in one flue.  I enter
it here, as it seems as good a place as any.  



Can a basement woodstove's stove pipe be run horizontally or at some minimum 
pitch for a distance of about 16 feet?  What special code, fire, saftey, 
precautions are necessary?  Special fire/heat proof plaster board?  Minimum 
clearences? etc.


I'm perfectly willing to take a "No" answer on this one.

thanks,
agb

    
    Mr. moderator move this if you know a better place. I checked
    all notes with the word chimney but this info was not there.
    
    Has anyone recently put up one of those stovepipe chimneys ?
    I see them all around, they're silver pipes, probably
    insulated ... I was wondering how much a 25 to 30 foot
    one would cost ? How long are they expected to last ?
    Any info like $/foot or whatever would be appreciated...
    
    Randy
    

    I installed a double wall flue for my furnance about 2 years ago.  I
    bought 2 8' sections, 2 4' sections, 1 3' section, and a cap for about
    $99.  It is rated for exterior use but most of mine goes up thru the
    center of the house in a utility chase.  They only had 2 8' or I would
    have bought 3.  I bought mine at a wholesaler because I wanted to tie
    it into an existing run and the home center did not carry that brand
    and the connections were different.  The price at the home center was
    about the same.  This was for 7" or 8" diameter round.  
    
    You need to make sure that it sticks up above your roof line.  There is
    a formula you follow to figure out how much it should extend past your
    roof line.  It was in the instructions for the cap.  If I recall it had
    to do with the pitch of the roof.  You need to get it up high enough so
    that the wind created by the roof does not blow the exhaust back down
    the flue.

    What you're probably referring to is Metalbestos (Brand name) chimney
    pipe. It is double wall pipe, with an insulation inbetween the walls
    (not sure if it's really asbestos or not). It can be installed with
    a minimum 2" clearance to combustibles, while the regular double wall
    pipe shouldn't be installed closer than 12" (Pretty sure, I don't
    positiveley remember the number for this, but I knew when I installed
    mine last fall). The Metalbestos is stainless steel, so it is very
    expensive. A 3' section lists for $110.00, but some places sell it for
    less. The pipes interlock, so they are more secure than ordinary pipe.
    Kind of expensive, huh ! Still want one ?

    RE: .0
    
    Another option is to use a stainless steel liner within an existing or
    new masonary chimney.  The piping is somewhat less expensive than the
    metalbestos since it is only a single layer of piping.  This needs some
    insulation though.  In my current and last house I used this method and
    provided insulation using a mixture of Permalite (brand name) and
    portland cement.  The cement hardens the Permalite and provides
    additional structural support for the liner.
    
    The brand name I used for the liner is Heat-Fab.  Send mail if you need
    more info about exact cost and distributers.
    
    Dan

    
    I want to install a stove in my basement. I'll need about 30' of
    pipe to get above the roof line. My other option which I started
    and then changed my mind, was to tap into an existing flue, I
    know this is discussed in length in other notes so I won't get
    into it too much, but, I knocked a hole through the cinder
    block and found that it is filled with cement. After further
    inspection some of the blocks are filled some aren't, I have
    to go almost 3' to get to the lining and there are flat blocks
    filling the spaces between the cinder blocks ! Fort Knox or what !!
    I'm going to have a mason look at it and give me a price and then
    I'll price the pipe from .1 and go with the cheaper/easier one.
    
    Randy
    

    I've got a few questions that I'm sure someone in note land has experienced.
    I also posted this in *::stoves without response.
    
    I would like to optain more heat or a higher efficiency level from my
    fireplace. I have no way to control burn rate right now.
    Two things come to mind to achieve this. A tube grate/blower combo,
    or a wood burner insert. 
    The other tuff part about this fireplace is it has an arched opening 
    as apposed to your square or rectangle opening, which makes it very 
    difficult to find a door/screen cover for it. This fireplace is an
    insert with a brick facing, and metal lined flue pipes. It is what
    I believe they call a close-contact fireplace.
    
    One benefit is the fresh air inlet for the FHA system is in the same 
    room (10'x15'), on the upper wall just next to the source of this heat.
    If a woodburner was installed, this inlet may help circulate heat 
    thruout the house, which is a slab ranch by the way. 
    
    Any comments or ideas out there?
    
    Much appreciated, Dave'
    

>>This fireplace is an
>>insert with a brick facing, and metal lined flue pipes. It is what
>>I believe they call a close-contact fireplace.

I bet you have a Heat-N-Glow zero clearance unit.  They were the only one I 
remember seeing with an arch.  I saw it at the woodstove shop in Maynard that's
on rte. 20.  Sorry, I don't remember the name.  If you're looking for a
glass door, and it is the heat-n-glow, they would have it or be able to get it.

Contact Greg Turner at the Woodstove Shop in Littleton (508-486-9500).  He
mentioned to me that there are inserts designed for zero clearance units.
However, there probably is not one for your particular design.

You could possible place a woodstove on the hearth and part way into the fire
box. Then you could use the existing flue and air intake and benefit from a
stove's airtight effeciency.  You would most likely have to extend your hearth
to get to the minimum required distance (check with your fire department and/or
building inspector).  I did this on my downstairs fireplace.  It was easy to 
extend my hearth because it was used brick and was very easy to match

    RE .1, I think the rule is the top of the pipe (chimney) must be at
    least 2 feet above anything within 10 feet.  That's more for fire
    protection than maintaining a good draft; in some conditions you need
    to be higher.
    

    RE. 2 I picked up the Metalbestos brand pipe for $5.00/foot. To install
    my wood stove and the pipe needed (2 3ft lengths, 2 2ft lenths and the
    sections that goes through the wall (the most expensive peice) cost me
    $150.00 dollars, and is garenteed for 15 years.. it was woth it to me.
    it was easy to install, and didn't take a lot of time. Your talking
    more money to go 30 ft.. Thats what it costed me.
    
                                                        

    
    FWIW, they're also selling these at State Lumber in Marlborough.
    
    CQ

    
    Does anyone have any experience with pseudo-wood stoves?  I was
    browsing through my Sears catalog and saw a couple of different styles
    of free standing "stoves" that come complete with pseudo-logs.  They
    burn something called gelled alcohol ($46.66 for a case of 24 cans...)
    The description says these things provide 9000 BTU's per hour.
    Are these things purely decorative, a step up from electric logs?  Or
    can they actually be used to heat a room?  A small room?  A closet? :-)
    I'd get a real wood stove, but I don't think my landlord would go for
    it.
    
    Christine

    
    
    
    You can heat two ways with the "gelled alcohol".
    
    1. keep your coffee carrafe warm or 
    
    
    2. HIC>HIC .drink it. 
    
    
    Gelled alcohol is another name for sterno.

    I purchased a Dovetech corn stove in Oct 90 and have been using it
    since. I would be happy to answer any questions about its operation.
    The Canadian price has recently jumped to 2400 $C, I suspect a
    marketing ploy with all the unrest in the middle east.  My initial
    search for an alternate heat source was based on wood, but when I added
    the cost of chimney and stove the corn burner was very competetive.
    Also, a neighbour who heats entirely with wood says he spends 10 days
    cutting, splitting, hauling and piling a seasons worth. I spent 1 hour
    getting a wagon load of dry corn from the elevator (150 bu for 400$C)
    The note that refers to burning 100 lbs a week is unrealistic if the 
    stove is to burn 24 hours a day. The minimum idle burns 20 lbs per day
    while maximum burn is about 70 lbs per day (1 bu = 56 lbs) I average 10
    bu per week.  My main heat source is a forced air propane furnace. In
    december 89, during a month long cold snap, the price of propane jumped
    from 26 cents per liter to 35 cents.  A 3 week propane bill of 400$ got
    my attention! 
    I would appreciate information on the current US price of corn stoves
    and the BTU size associated. The unit I have is rated at 35000 BTU, but
    is under sized for the draughty farm house I'm trying to heat. We still
    rely on propane when the outside temperature goes below 0 deg C. I'm
    now planning an upgrade or a second unit or more insulation. (the jury
    is still out) BTW propane has remained at 35 cents per liter this
    season, if it increases again I would like to take advantage of spring
    discount sales.
    
    dan
    

    
    Aha.  So I guess the consensus is that I could buy one of these and
    have a hell of a cheese fondue.
    
    CQ

     I was intrigued by these a year ago or so.  I have a small 
     "sunroom" (12'x16') that I wanted an occassional heat source
     for.

     I think the conclusion I came to is that the cost/BTU was 
     way too high (using Sears' price for the sterno).

     -gary

    
    Okay, here's a subtle twist in the plot. :-)
    
    We are in the process of buying a home with a woodstove, which is
    located in the basement. The stove does not have a permit. I called the
    town building inspector about getting a permit, and was told to find a
    label on the stove that would detail the conditions that had to be met
    before a permit would be granted. I was also told that if the label was
    not on the stove, a permit could not be granted. What are the
    conditions that this label sets out?
    
    We are considering either asking the owner to obtain a permit for the
    stove by closing, or disconnecting the stove and reducing the price of
    the home. What should we do?
    
    Thanks for any advice, bc
    

re: 210.14                       Wood Stoves                           14 of 14
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                         -< Woodstove without permit >-
>    We are in the process of buying a home with a woodstove, which is
>    located in the basement. The stove does not have a permit. I called the

I can't really say what to do, unless we know what you want to do.

I can tell you this: If you do not have a permit for the Woodstove; it is
your Insurance Company who will determine the "probable" extent of loss
if there is  fire due to the woodstove.

Check with your insurance company.

>    We are considering either asking the owner to obtain a permit for the
>    stove by closing, or disconnecting the stove and reducing the price of
>    the home. What should we do?

Make whatever it is that you want to do, as a condition of the sale.
It depends on what is important. I've never heard of having to provide
"the name" of the stove, since the installaitn had to be inspected
by the Fire Marshall. METPAY wants to know about the wood stove, an see
the permit, signed by the Fire Chief. And  there is a premium on
the Fire Insurance portion of the Homeowners policy.

This may not apply to you, but when I first began looking at houses, I actually
had a real estate agent tell me that the "Purchase and Sale Agreements" they 
used were standard forms which could not be modified. Which, of course, is
a bunch of bunk .. I told them that, and sent them to H*ll.

-Bob

The label on our wood stove specifies the distance that the wood stove must be
located from either combustable or non-combustable wall in a variety of 
configurations.

    	I'm curious how many other people have started using wood 
    	pellet stoves, and where you get your pellets.  We bought 
    	one last year, and purchased all of our wood pellets at the 
    	Red House Chimney & Stove Shop in Merrimack, NH (the same 
    	place where we bought the pellet stove).
    
    	I'd like to know about alternative places to get pellets, 
    	so I can do some price comparing.

I'd guess the experts flock to PORI::STOVES.

    	There doesn't seem to be much activity in the stoves conference, 
    	so I was hoping to find more pellet stove users here.  I know 
    	there are a lot of them out there, and was just hoping that the 
    	selection of pellet suppliers would build as well.

    I just got a Vermont Castings catalog in the mail the other day.
    They sell pellet stoves and I think also sold the pellets.
    
    -TB

    
       Can anyone offer some suggestions regarding babyproofing our wood
    stove? Please don't mention those metal folding gates you can put in
    front of them because he knows how to get around it. Any help would
    be greatly appreciated.
    
    Rick

    
    
    	Don't put a fire in it.
    
    	

    This may sound cruel and heartless, but most kids will, one way or 
another, get near a woodstove that is hot, even if they have to use 
boltcutters and ladders to manage it. They find the inaccessibility very 
attractive, until they get burned. I'm not suggesting that you allow 
your child to get burned, but that you try and help your child understand 
just how hot the stove is and that they will be hurt if they touch it. Both 
my kids learned easily that the stove was something to stay away from, and 
never had an accident with it. Others may not be so lucky but you will 
always be trying to remember to "fix" the stove, and it will be a pain to 
do. Experiance is the best teacher, and your kids will learn faster from a 
hot stove than all the safeguards you can put around them.

    Be sure play areas are 5-6' away from the stove, that it isn't in a 
traffic path to-from the TV or other area they frequent, and they should 
have no reason to be near it once they realise that it will burn them.

    Vic H

It's a brave man who'll offer another advice regarding their children, but
I'll second Vic's reply.  It worked just fine for my two little ones.  You
just hover watchfully until they've learned, to ensure they don't learn by
falling against it (and aren't able to get off, then they will be hurt). 

    Kids will learn from experience, but the experience could be very
    painful!
    If I were you, I would ask our pediatrician the minimum age when a
    woodstove is child-safe.
    
    
    				herb

    
    re Last few
    
    It worked for my cats. I had a cat that use to sleep on the stove
    (during the summer 8*)). Now it won't go near the damn thing.
    
    Mike

    I'll nth the idea that the kid, if mobile enough to defeat a
    fence/gate, probably has enough smarts to figure out what
    "hot" means if you take about two minutes and show/explain
    what a hot woodstove is.  My mother was one of 13 kids; she
    and all her brothers and sisters and countless hordes of
    random childern, cousins, grandchildren, etc. all grew up on 
    a farm in close proximity to a "Queen Atlantic" kitchen range 
    as well as stoves in the living room, etc. and didn't have any 
    problem.  This past summer we stayed in a camp in Maine for
    about a week that had a woodstove, and my two-year-old had no
    trouble learning that the stove was something to keep a distance
    from.
    As previously pointed out, you *do* have to take reasonable
    precautions to be sure the child isn't likely to fall against
    the stove by accident.
    And all kids are different; you may have one that is just inherently
    less cautious than most.  
    

You can do your best to make them understand that it's hot and they should stay
away, and some kids will still try to touch it, or forget that they shouldn't
touch it, when you're not standing right next to them.  What you can do with the
screens it ensure, as someone else said, that they don't fall into it, which
could put them in a position where they couldn't get away and they could get
really hurt.

My son, despite warnings and previous disciplinary action, touched the hot stove
one day and burned his finger.  Of course he pulled his finger off immediately,
and just burned the tip.  The burn healed fine, and he learned two things:
stoves really ARE hot, and mom and dad (at least sometimes) know what they are
talking about when they warn him about something.  In a way, I was actually
glad when he did it (cruel and heartless though it may sound), because he 
learned in a much more lasting way than he ever could from me telling him that 
stoves are hot and to be stayed away from, and he did it in a way that caused
no lasting damage.

To allay that feeling that I'm cruel and heartless, note that I've been glad 
that I clipped the corner of MY OWN thumb with the tablesaw.  It caused no 
lasting damage except a scar and a bit of numbness in one small area, and it 
brought home to me in a way no literature ever could how dangerous saws are, how
fast accidents happen, and how bad it is to do stupid things without thinking.  
Now every time I turn on a power tool I rub that numb place and ask myself: "Is 
what I'm about to do dangerous?"  More than once the answer has been yes, and 
I've figured out a safer way to make the cut I wanted.  That little clip on the 
thumb may save some of my fingers someday.

The bottom line is, do your best to make sure that your kids aren't REALLY hurt,
and then don't be afraid of their getting hurt just enough to learn.  Such 
lessons can be a BENEFIT to your children.  Who knows when you might go 
somewhere where there is a hot stove with no screen, and their experiential
knowledge of the pain of hot stoves might save them from greater injury?

For example, no matter how much we tell him, my son (now almost 6) is 
essentially fearless of cars.  He knows to look for cars, but he's been known to
"forget" far too often.  The day isn't far off when he will be out riding his 
bike on busier streets, and I fear for his safety.  If I could arrange for him 
to have a frightening and even perhaps painful encounter with a car that did no
serious or lasting damage, I'd do it.  I'd rather have him get a scrape that 
takes a couple weeks to heal and have him really learn of the dangers of cars, 
than have him stay oblivious to the danger and really get himself hurt.

Paul

    
    I agree with the last few replies.  Although I have no kids, I was one
    once, and I still remember learning my lesson!  I was fascinated with
    fire and we had an incinerator in the basement.  I don't remember what
    I was doing but one day, I went to lift the door open and burnt the
    palm of my hand bad enough to teach me never to touch that darn thing
    again.  It hurt like hell for quite a while and a big blister formed
    there.
    
    CQ  

    The woman who used to sit for my kids put up some of that wrought iron
    railing around her wood stove.  The kids couldn't/wouldn't climb over
    it but she and her husband could climb over to feed the stove.
    

	I will be echoing others here, but if it helps...

	I have a 3.5 year old and one who is 1.5 years. We run the woodstove
all winter. It IS out of the traffic patterns, on a raised hearth, however
there are no other barriers. They play around it all summer, but seem to 
know to stay away when it is lit. Unless it is dying out, the heat given off
can become painful before they even reach touching distance. I asked the 
store owner where I bought my stove the same question. His answer was
the same and has been borne out by my experience.

	I have had similar experiences to some of the others (Paul
especially!).  My daughter mildly burnt her hand on an iron despite repeated
warnings about it being hot. She hasn't gone near it, or the stove, since. :-)

							Mark

P.S. Paul, I too nicked my finger on a table saw with similar results.
	Certainly changed my approach to using my power tools. I do hope
	you don't have your son learn to respect cars the way I did.

	Kelly, the 3.5 year old daughter, took my truck for a ride down
	the driveway two weeks ago (she released the emergency brake and
	pulled the stick shift into neutral). The estimate is $1500.00 :-(
	She certainly has a greater respect for the power of cars now!

	The good/funny part of the story is... As I was dashing toward the
	truck, my biggest worry was that she was going to fall out of
	the open door. Then I noticed that before initiating all this
	destruction, she first put her seatbelt on. At least some
	of the messages get through! :-)

>To allay that feeling that I'm cruel and heartless, note that I've been glad 
>that I clipped the corner of MY OWN thumb with the tablesaw.  It caused no 
>lasting damage except a scar and a bit of numbness in one small area, and it 
>brought home to me in a way no literature ever could how dangerous saws are,
>how fast accidents happen, and how bad it is to do stupid things without
>thinking. Now every time I turn on a power tool I rub that numb place and ask
>myself: "Is what I'm about to do dangerous?"  More than once the answer has
>been yes, and I've figured out a safer way to make the cut I wanted.  

>That
>little clip on the thumb may save some of my fingers someday. 

i think you should immediately take those fingers off with the saw.  you may 
be saving an ARM!  :^o

-craig

    
    
      Thanks to everyone who answered. I pretty much saw this weekend what
    we can expect to happen. We had a fire in the woodstove on Sunday and 
    whenever he got to within 2 or 3 feet he would start crying because of
    the heat. So hopefully this should keep him away from it.

    
    
        Where to get pellets?  The STOVE Shop in Salem has large
    quantities of pellets, and a nice selection of the Stoves.
    I just purchased a small soapstone wood stove(wife thought
    it was adorable), I liked the look and feel of the pellet
    stoves, real easy to use and not much mess.
    
        The Stove Shop is located at exit 3 on rte93, the intersection
    of rte 111 and rte28, actualy it is on rte 28. This is about
    1 1/2 miles east of 93.
    
        Scott

                                              <<< Note 4347.4 by NAVIER::SSULLIVAN >>>
                                                        -< Where to buy??? >-

    
I know of someone in Concord, Ma who just bought the machinery to
make them. I don't know if he has set up shop yet, but if anyone 
is interested I will give him a call.

	Steve

    I just saw a newspaper article about these stoves, and they sound like
    just what I want to heat a small workshop.  How expensive are they to
    buy?
    
    

>    I just saw a newspaper article about these stoves, and they sound like
>    just what I want to heat a small workshop.  How expensive are they to
>    buy?

I don't have an answer to your question.  But there's a "wood stove" store
in Littleton, Ma (just down rt 119 from Little Common and 495).  I stopped
in one day to look as gas grills and the friend I was with talked to him
about the pellet stoves.  He had about 5 or 6 to show...  He was sold on them.

The one thing I do remember was something about they sold the pellets in
one ton quantities and hence took up a decent amount or room to store them.

Dan

Most good-quality, free-standing pellet stoves start around $1,800. Fireplace
inserts run a couple hundred dollars more.  Pellets run somewhere around $190
per ton.  These puppies are not cheap, but they're much less labor-intensive
than wood "stick" burning stoves, more efficient, and less polluting.

Brian

    So how many BTUs per unit of wood pellets?
    
    How does that compare with wood, gas, oil, and electric?
    
    -al

These stoves are intriguing, but I have a question?

Is the pellet feeder electric?  If so, doesn't this mean your fire will go out
when the power goes off?  Or is it battery operated?  Or windup?

I've seen stats that put these stoves at 89% efficiency (that's why
they can get away with a 4" noninsulated flue and produce so little ash). I
think the best stick stoves, e.g. VC Defiant Encore 0028, get around 80%
efficiency max.

I've also seen stats that say one ton of pellets produces the same heating
ability as 1.5 cords of wood, 170 therms of natural gas, and 200 gallons of
propane, and 123 gallons of #6 oil.

The burn time on a pellet stove tends to be much longer than a stick stove.
Some are rated at 15 to 28 hours on a load of pellets (55 pounds). 

Every pellet stove I have seen uses electricity to run the augur and fans. They
tend to use 110V and draw anywhere from 150 to 550 watts. So, if the
electricity goes out, your pellet fire will soon burn out.  

Brian

    If the heating comparison numbers in .11 are correct, then if one
    ton of wood pellets ($190) is the same as 123 gallons of fuel oil
    [did you mean #2 oil?] that means the oil would have to be $1.544
    per gallon for them to be equivalent.
    
    At the current price of oil, the wood pellet stove doesn't sound
    very economical.
    
    -al

    	This is the first time I've had a woodstove (it came with the
   	house) and I've been experimenting with it. It seems you can burn 
    	anything in there when you get the coals hot enough. To my surprise 
    	even wet half-rotten logs which were apparently left laying on the 
    	ground for years burned to coals. 

    	So my naive questions are:

    	1) Why do you have to dry the wood?   (only little more efficient?)
    	
    	2) Do you have to split the wood like for a fireplace or can you
    	   just throw in whole logs and the contained heat will burn it?

    	3) The only problem with burning slightly 'green' wood is that it 
    	   takes longer to burn and some people don't like the hissing 
    	   noises, but otherwise it's no big deal, right?

    	It takes so much effort to split and dry wood, people have to be
    	doing it for a reason. But I'm surprised how much a wood stove can
    	burn (compared to the fireplaces I'm used to). It seems to dry the
    	wood in the contained heat while the rest is burning...
                                                  
    	-Erik

>    	So my naive questions are:

>    	1) Why do you have to dry the wood?   (only little more efficient?)

    Dry wood, when burning, creates less creosote than does green wood. 
Creosote coats your chimney and can lead to chimney fires and more effort 
at cleaning the chimney each year. Left uncleaned, the creosote will nearly 
block the flue off in your chimney after some period of time. 

>    	2) Do you have to split the wood like for a fireplace or can you
>    	   just throw in whole logs and the contained heat will burn it?

    Once you get a fire going very hot, you can add logs that are up to 
about 5"-6" in diameter. Otherwise, they burn better if split. You can 
hardly start a fire with whole, round logs of any size, other than perhaps 
twigs.

>    	3) The only problem with burning slightly 'green' wood is that it 
>    	   takes longer to burn and some people don't like the hissing 
>    	   noises, but otherwise it's no big deal, right?

    The hissing is water being vaporized and going up the chimney in steam. 
You lose _LOTS_ of your heat in a fireplace by having to dry the wood in 
the fire before it burns. This also reduces you effective temperature in 
the stove so your fire burns cooler, also a problem since you want a hot 
fire to keep your flue clean of creosote and you want to get good 
combustion in the fire so you have less pollutants in the smoke that comes 
out of the chimney.

    If you are new to this, try your library for a good book on stoves and 
burning, or look for the woodstove notesfile. There used to be an active 
one a few years back when more folks were burning wood and less oil/gas.

    Vic 
    

    You want a hot, clean fire.  The easiest way to get this is with
    split, dry wood.  It's almost impossible to achieve with wet,
    unsplit logs.  
    As mentioned, if you have a smouldering, steamy fire you'll get
    more creosote in the chimney, which can lead to chimney fires
    and burning your house down.  Also as mentioned, it takes a *lot*
    of energy to evaporate all that water, so you get less heat.
    
    If you're new at this, I'd suggest getting one of those magnetic
    thermometers that goes on the stovepipe, and aim to keep the
    temperature up around 300+ degrees.  You don't want the water
    vapor in the smoke to condense inside the chimney.  Also take
    a look at what's coming out of the chimney when the stove is
    burning; except when starting up, you should (ideally) see 
    little, if any, smoke.

    Re: Green Wood
    
    Popular Science had an article on creosote/wood about 10 years ago.
    The conclusion was that the amount of cresosote was INDEPENDENT
    of dry or green wood. Their reasoning was that the chemical reaction
    for burning wood produced enough water to make cresosote from dry
    wood.
    
    The main point is temperature of the smoke pipe. Cold, and you
    will get cresote from dry wood.
    
    The new wood stoves use converters or new burning designs to eliminate
    cresote production.
    
    Marc H.

	    Speaking about creosote build up, you should check your
	chimney before you continue to run the wood stove.  On a bright, 
	sunny day you can hold a mirror inside the clean out at the base.
	Angle the mirror so you can check out all four walls of the 
	chimney lining from top to bottom.  If it looks like you have
	rocks growing along the inside of the flue, you probably need a
	sweep done.
	    The WOODSTOVES conference is very good.  I recommend you 
	look up notes on catalytic combustors.  A properly fired CC will
	burn up to 90% of the creosote coming from your stove and will
	reduce the air pollution (considerably) as well.  They allow you 
	to run the stove cooler (SAFELY!) and longer.  If you heat with 
	mostly wood, you can recover the cost of a catalytic combustor 
	in one or two seasons (depending how much you pay for the wood).

					Tim

    Hi all,
    
    I am in the process of getting ready to purchase a wood stove.  My
    question about this is, Do I need to get a permit (in Messedupchusetts)
    before I install it or do I install it first then get th permit?  Also
    who do I contact about the permit?  I heard it was the town building
    inspector and I heard the Chief of the fire department...My last 
    question is ..Do I need to submit anything to my insurance company
    (which is Metropolitan)???  Thanks in advance for any help you folks
    can give me.  I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kevin

    Yes you do need a permit in Mass.(of course they charge) The building
    inspector will also tell you what you need for behind and under the
    stove and any other requirements. I believe the fire cheif will have to 
    inspect you chimmney.

    Yup, and the stove must have a UL label attached to the stove. When we
    moved in last September, there was already a woodstove there but Homer
    Owner didn't install the pipes correctly and it hadn't been inspected. 
    We called the building inspector and he wouldn't even look at it
    because the stove didn't have a UL label physically attached to the
    stove, even though the owner's manual had the UL label. The stove was 
    made in 1977 and it wasn't required that the UL seal be affixed back in
    those days and of course the manufacturer isn't in business anymore so
    we couldn't get one. 

    I already have the brick laid on the floor and the chimney is just
    about set.  All I have to do is finish up on it where the previous
    owner left off.  He extended the back wall about 3-4 inches so it was
    neccessary for him to put up another layer of brick from floor to
    ceiling.  He did a half-arsed job of it.  The stove I am getting is
    about 5-6 years old...Hopefully it will have the UL label on it..Boy
    I hate this state, they tax you to death, charge you for everything
    under the sun and then vote themselves in raises???  Where do I get a 
    job like that.  Thanks for all the input.  I wil do some calling today
    to get the ball-of-wax rolling.
    
    Kevin

    RE: .3
    
    You have just seen the tip of the icebreg of rules and regulations
    in the people's republic of taxachusetts.
    
    Marc H.

Pardon my soapbox, but more to blame than the bureaucrats are the moron do it 
yourselfers who consistently get things wrong, then expect the rest of the 
world to pay for their stupidity (we pay the fire dept, we pay the insurance,
etc.)

If you could have seen the woodstove (without permit) the prior owner of my 
house tried to sell me.  I had to extend the hearth to use a stove that was 
about 1/4 the size of the one he had.  The ash lip under the front door of his
stove hung OVER the rug!!!

I won't even get into the details about the finish work on the master bedroom,
the plumbing and the wiring he did.  None of it would pass a permit.  Most of
it looked fine when we bought the house, but now, 8 years later, it's all 
starting to show.

So, if you are going to complain, complain about the PROBLEM, not the solution.
If you think the solution is imperfect, or ineffective, spend all your spare
time getting involved in your local politics.  And hire a qualified tradesman 
to make all your home improvements!   Or... MOVE.

    RE: .5
    
    Massachusetts State Bookstore offers a publication outlining all the
    rules and regulations you have to do for the Woodstove installation.
    
    I don't have the number, but they are located in the basement of the
    State House.
    
    Marc H.

	I'll be putting in two wood stoves (in fireplaces).
	Can anyone recommend a shop, chimney person, or woodstove installer
	who is willing to install __USED__ stoves?

	I've been given the reference of "The Chimney Doctor" but cannot 
	locate them.  Other places I've called will only install their 
	own new stoves, not used ones.

	Any suggestions?  They shouldn't be major installs...

	Thanks.					jill patton

Jill,

Several of the Chimney Sweeps that I have used over the years buy/sell used
stoves and also do installlations.  I am in NH, so my recommendations might
not come down your way.

dana

FWIW, I just talked to Nancy Fish at Corning (800/637-1644) who deals with
catalytic convertors.  I was specifically interested in an after-market unit. 

She said that they need to operate with the pipe in a vertical orientation, and
therefore work best on units whose exhaust comes out the top. 

For rear exhaust units, she said that the elbow needed to get the pipe vertical
will cause enough of a temperature loss that the catalytic convertor won't work
well.  Of course, you can really fire up the wood stove to get the catalytic
convertor hot enough, but that introduces more inefficiencies than you gain. 

Also, I was planning on using it on a wood furnace, and she said the cycling on
a furnace isn't good -- what is really needed is constant operation. 

								-- Chuck Newman 

	My husband and I recently purchased a house with two woodstoves in
	it.  I don't know if there was a permit.  Do we need to get one
	ourselves even if the previous owners had one?  Does a permit last
	one year or must it be renewed every year.

	I didn't even know about getting a permit until I saw this note!
	We've been living there since April!

	Karen

    
    To answer the question about METPAY ....  They do have a form that
    you fill out on the brand, type, size etc..  of the stove and you
    have the inspector sign it and give a copy to METPAY. Not every
    Rep will know what you're talking about, one had to call the main
    office to see if the form existed. The only reason I pushed him
    to find out was because I had gotten the form before and wanted
    to cover my butt.
    
    Randy
    

    
    I bought my home three years ago and it came complete with woodstove
    and without UL sticker, hearth under entire stove area, or permit. 
    
    I never filled out a form with METPAY or had it inspected by a 
    building inspector -- (the fire chief did inspect the house for 
    smoke detectors and couldn't have missed the stove if he were 
    breathing/awake) and METPAY has paid me for two losses related 
    to the woodstove (one where the flashing lifted and water 
    leaked all down the chimney on carpets, etc. and one chimney
    fire caused by a dead squirrel in a clean chimney rather than 
    an un-cleaned chimney) 
    
    Sounds from this topic however, that I've simply been lucky . . . 
    
    Sigh . . . 

    Woodstove permits are a one shot deal....the inspection is looking for 
(and don't quote me on details, it has been a few years) both the type of 
stove and proper installation of it, including 2' minimum distance to 
combustible surfaces on the sides, 18" in front, and maybe 2' above the 
stove. 

    If you are unsure about the installation, check with your local 
building inspector for any info he might have or can point you to. I recall 
a sheet that our town handed out that gave you all the details necessary to 
get a permit signed off. 

    Vic

	I got a question that relates to installations. I'm considering,
mainly due to cost and verification of it working, of installing a woodstove
boiler located outside of my house. I'm planning to use it to suppliment pool
water heating when we get several cloudy days. I have also resolved the pipes
freezing issue, it will use an antifreeze mixture in the pipes.


	A rough drawing of what I'm thinking:


         ^
        / \                        o
       /   \                      o
      /     \                    |  
      |     | <- House          _| <- Chimney
      |     |..................|  |<- Woodstove boiler
      ------- <-- 10-20 ft -->  --


	I am curious if anyone has ever done this before? 

	Can anyone think of a legal reason why I can't do this?


	I do plan to talk to the local Building Inspector too.

					Thanks
					Bill

    Bill,
    My brother heats his home down in N.C. with a wood fired boiler that is
    outside by his garage. It not a closed system, it used water..but he
    doesn't have a real bad freezing problem.
    
    Jim                                           

I am looking to have a wood stove vent hood built for my wood stove
to direct the heat through the floor to the room above.  Roughly it will
be about 2'x3'x 2' and attached to the ceiling. It will look something like:

                       -+-------+-
			|	|
			|	|<---- square shaped
			|	|
			/	\
		       /         \ 
		      /		  \
		     /             \
                     |             |
                     +-------------+

My question is what gauge sheet metal should i use and what price can i 
expect to pay. Does anyone have any recommendations for sheet metal
fabricators in the Central Ma. area?  There are about 40 listed in the
phone book.

Thanks.

/james

I used J&R Sheet Metal last month when I had my wood furnace hooked up to my
existing gas FHA system.  The price seemed pretty good, as did the finished
quality.  Marc Hildebrandt (sp?) said he also used them for some work, and I
believe he too had a favorable experience.

The are out of Worcester, I believe.

								-- Chuck Newman

    RE: .1
    
    Correct! Use J&R
    
    Marc Hildebrant

Thanks, i'll give them a shot.

BTW, what is the guage of standard heat duct? I am thinking 18 or 22 ga.

/james

    	Does anyone have any tips on cleaning the glass on air-tight wood
    stoves that have a glass panel in the door ? While I'm at it, if
    someone knows of an easy way to clean the glass on a the lid of a gas
    grill I'd appreciate that as well.
    
    	Ray

    Oven cleaner
    

My husband uses lacquer thinner, his favorite all-around cleaning solution.
It doesn't get it looking like new, but at least you can see through it...

	My woodstove isntructions say *NOT* to use anything other than water
	to clean the windows.

	In fact, I've found that warm water and a sponge work remarkably
	well on my wood stove doors. Just takes a little patience and elbow
	grease, but it's not an all-day back breaker by any means.

	Roy

	    I used a razor blade to clean the glass on my gas grill.

					Tim

    
    Last year I picked up a spray can of stuff for that purpose
    at the stove shop in Auburn, Ma. and it works excellent.
    
    If I think of it tonite I'll look at it and post it tomorrow.
    
    Believe it has a red or orange and black label.
    
    Fred

While the stove is still warm, use a piece of damp newspaper to pick up some of
the ashes and use this to scour the glass.

-Chris

    	Well, I was sitting there in my living room looking at it last
    night and figured I try some regular old Windex. I guess the stuff
    wasn't as baked on as it looked because it came right off using the
    Windex and paper towels. I suspect that I won't be as lucky with my gas
    grill though.
    
    	Ray

    We're planning to buy a small pellet stove, to replace a Godin
    coal stove. By small I mean small in BTU output and in footprint 
    - need to keep the depth  of the stove under 25" if back 
    venting and the less depth the  better. We're considering the 
    Jamestown Baby Bear, Whitfield Renaissance and Quest.
    
    Opinions on stoves and dealers are welcome. We live in Bolton,
    dealers in Mass or southern NH are those we've been visiting.
     
    Thanks

    
    
    Let me ask you this.....  Is it just size your worried about?
    
    Some +'s.  Its clean, meaning you dont have coal dust and related
    		items and stuff.
    	       Its self loading.  Just fill the hopper and go.
    
    Some -'s   The fuel is $$$$. and I venture to say it wont put out
    	       like your coal unit will..
    
    But I take it this wont be used for heating the house and not on
    all the time, so for you, it might work out good.
    JD

    
      Silly John, the stove should put out at least as much as its rated
    for. Of course, size for size, it may put out less than coal, but I
    don't know that. I do know that pellet stoves are getting raves from
    everyone who gets the chance to use them. The price of the pellets is
    coming down, but it still is more than coal or wood.
    
    				Kenny

Have you considered a corn stove, which is quite similar and possibly more
economical? (Or, possibly not.)

I ask only because they usually seem to be under consideration simultaneously.

-Jack

	   You might try asking/lookng around PORI::STOVES.  

					Tim

    ...ditto the razor blade on the gas grill.  Takes about 5 minutes for a
    big window.

    thanks for the pointer to pori::stoves.
    
    I was looking for opinions on particular makes of stoves - who has
    used the different models and can offer advice. This stove will act
    as a supplemental heater for 2 rooms that are at the outer reaches
    of our forced hot-air oil heating system. (Very old house with 
    add-ons). The coal stove is messy and inconvenient, especially since we
    don't run it all day when we're at work - the coal burns out into
    chunks that have to be lifted out the top, ash has to be removed, then
    re-light the fire etc etc. A real pain. It also sometimes
    overpowers the room when it is really cranked. Coal dust is also
    real dirty. Cost of fuel is really not the primary factor, although
    I imagine it will still be far cheaper than cranking up the oil
    furnace enough to warm up those rooms.
    
    The size restrictions are based on the location of the chimney put in
    by the former owner, proximity of walls,  and how much traffic flow 
    is needed near that spot.
    

    What about a gas log stove?  Jotel makes good ones.  You could 
    hook up to a natural gas tank if you don't have piped in gas.
    They are easy on and easy off.  They also don't create a mess.
    Heat well and give a realistic appearance of a fire place with
    the lights out for those romantic times.

    justme....jacqui

    
    I used to have an antique style Godin stove with a fairly small firebox
    and burned anthracite or coked coal.  It's very clean - virtually
    dustless and burns extremely hot (low soot/ash too).  With the air
    intake shut it would stay lit for 24 hrs.  Is this kind of fuel
    available to you?
    
    Colin
    

    I've tried to get into pori::stoves and krystl::stoves for two
    weeks...they have either disappeared or been down for a long time. Does
    anyone know?
    
    Chris

	   PORI::STOVES is not currently reachable.  It `was' reachable
	three weeeks ago (Really it was).  I never saw any notes about
	it moving or anything.  Maybe the moderator is on vacation.
	    
					Tim

    
    Something else to consider with a pellet stove (whether it's a +
    or a - will vary with area).
    
    If your electricity goes out, about 20 minutes (or so) later the
    fire goes out - we lost power for 3 days during hurricane Bob.
    Agreed, hurricanes and the such don't happen that often, and we
    were probably not the norm with the electric out for 3 days...
    but it does happen.   With electric out... we had heat from wood
    stove only; not the warmest it's been in the house, but 55 - 60
    degrees kept the pipes from freezing. 
    

Are pellet stoves electric?  Or is it just that there are parts that 
need to be electric, like a hopper feeder or a blower?  I've been 
thinking about these stoves for basement heating, and the case
where electricity goes out.  I already lose my water (well pump) and
heat.  If a pellet stove isn't going to work either, that's something
I need to know.

PeterT

    
    the stove itself isn't electric, but the blower is. 
    However, the stove needs air to burn and the air is
    fed in by the blower.  No electricity,  no blower,
    and in about 20 minutes after blower stops, no air
    for fire, hence fire goes out.
    
    I suggest you ask your dealer to explain it in detail
    if needed. 
    
    In the limited knowledge I have, I see pellet stoves
    as a BMW (big money waste).   They cost more than a
    comparable wood stove, they cost more to operate (pellets
    are some $100/ton, where a ton *might* last about 3
    months plus the extra $10 or so per month for electric).
    The wood stove is a little more work and maybe not
    quite as clean, but probably cheaper in the long run.
    

    Where's the best place to look/buy a pelet stove?  What is the price
    range for such a stove?
    
    Thanks

    re:1 
    
    I don't know where you are located but, in Salem N.H., off of
    Rte. 28. there is a place called the Stove Shop they have them
    there.
    
    

	   The hoppers that you store the pellets in use an electric 
	auger to feed the pellets into the stove.  You increase the
	speed of the auger to increase the tempearture of the stove.
	    I guess corn stoves are very similar except you burn corn
	kernals instead of wood pellets.  You could probably get dried 
	corn fairly cheap (if you live near any farms).
	    A friend of a friend has a corn stove.  When it's running,
	the house smells like pop corn.  It burns clean and doesn't 
	require expensive flue pipes.  I think they can be vented out
	a wall instead having to go of up through a roof.  The savings
	on flue pipe should cover the added cost of the stove (which 
	I don't think is higher than a good wood stove).
	    One concern with corn over wood pellets would be storing
	the corn where rodents can not get to it.

					Tim

    Just replaced a woodstove insert with a Whitefield pellet stove insert 
    and its great. There are better ones out there but I wasn't willing to 
    pay the price. 
    
    Things to consider:
    
    - 1 ton of pellet  cost $185    =  1 1/2 cords of wood cost $210
    - $135 if you buy in spring     |  ??
    - 85% efficient		    |  75% efficient
    - takes one 40lb bag at a time  |  need to feed in logs
    - pick up pellets when you need |  got to buy and stack cords at a time. 
      them
    - easy to startup		    |  ??
    - 1 bag of pellets produces     |  ??
      1/2 cup of ash
    - blower motors cost $60 each   |  no moving parts nothing to break
      to replace. Labor extra.
    
    
    Kem

    	Not sure if this is an issue on pellet stoves, but it apparently is
    on corn stoves. If you lose power, there are at least some corn stoves
    that do not continue to work. 
    
    	I forget exactly what it is that needs electricity to run (either
    blower or auto-feeder) but they will burn out shortly after losing
    power. Since the pellet stove has a blower it might be something to
    look into.
    
    	Ray

    Yes, pellet stoves don't work without power. One other factor, the heat
    output and hours of burning are likely to vary with different brands of
    pellets. Try a bag of each kind to find the right one.
    
    Try Dave Yakuboff, All Basics, Merrimack, NH. (603) 424-0420.

    I don't know what happened to PORI::STOVES, but it has been out
    of commission lateley, 'Network Object unknown at remote node'.
    
    I just recently bought a Harmon Mark I coal stove, and haven't
    even lit it up yet (it's been installed for 3 days now). Does
    anyone know a surefire way to get a coal fire started and kept
    going? I've heard that if your coal fire isn't burning right, it 
    can be dangerous with the carbon monoxide getting out into your
    home.
    
    Thanks,
    	John

    
      That's crap. If your coal stove isn't *installed* right you can get
    co into the house. But coal requires a good draft to burn. If the draft
    is poor or if a door is left open, you'll lose draft and it will go
    out.
    
    				Kenny

    A friend who has a coal stove swears by charcoal briquettes to
    get it going.  
    
    

    My first attempt at starting a coal fire was a failure. 
    Later on, I spent one heating season without the fire going out
    (except when I went away on wanted it to go out). My record for
    continuous coal fire was learned the hard way, over a couple of
    years.
    
    Main points:
    1. To start, get a good wood fire going in the stove, and start adding
       coal pieces to the fire. Don't put a lot in all at once, but
       keep adding them as they start to burn.
       Keep a real good draft until the coal is "cooking".
    2. The key is to manage the ash content during the day. You just 
       need to get a feel for your stove.
    3. At night, shake down the fire....add a fair amount of new coal.
       Turn down the draft and go to bed.
    4. First thing in the morning....add coal, then increase the draft.
       *After* the coal is well lite, shake it down. If you shake it first,
       there will not be enough heat to start the fresh coal.
    
    If I had access to a good supply of wood, I wouldn't have a coal stove.
    However, for a homeowner who doesn't have free wood handy, the coal
    stove is the cheapest.
    
    Marc H.

    .3 is got it covered petty well, I'll go into a little more detail of
    the actual getting it started.

    First you need hardwood kindling (no pine). Hardwood burns hotter and
    longer both important to the easy start of a coal fire. Clean out every
    from the firebox. Cover the grate with a wide piece or two of wood. This 
    will help keep the coals around for the 15 minutes or so it take to get the
    coal fire roaring. Place in 3 or 4 half pages of crumbled up newspaper.
    Cover with loosely packed kindling (1/4" diameter),use dull hatchet
    and gloves. Have ready a pile of 3/4" diameter kindling. Now open the
    damper all the way and open the clean out door. If you can feel the
    draft lite the fire, if not lite a piece of paper and hold it up near
    where the stove pipe leaves the back of the stove. This will fill the
    flue with warm air and increase your draft, then lite the fire below. 
    Wait for the first snap of the wood fire, then start adding loosely some
    larger kindling. Continue to fill the firebox. Once everything is
    burning about 2 minutes. Then start with a few shovel fulls of coal, spread
    out over the fire. Wait five minutes and then add more wood and more
    coal. Wait five more minutes than add more coal, the loosely packed wood 
    running at full throttle goes quick. Once the coal you just added warms up 
    a bit (about two minutes) you can start regulating the burn with the 
    dampers on the flue and clean out door.
    Coal fires are a pain to lite and why you'd like to find the stove
    cold. Stick close to the stove while we're getting the coal started. A
    couple minutes can mean the difference in starting over. Talk to a 
    woodworking friend or a local saw mill for waste hardwood. Just be sure 
    its dry.

    Happy heating!

    /Jim
     
    

I use chunks of those "starter" logs. They catch easily and burn 
long enough to allow the coal to catch.

Fat wood works well also.

It's a learned art.

daryll

    Well, my attempt to start my Harmon Mark I coal stove failed, I am having
    a problem lighting and getting draft (my wife thinks a bird built a
    nest in the top of the metal chimney) because the room fills up with
    smoke. The stove fills up with smoke and seeps out the primary air
    intake ( a draft control knob on the bottom attached to the ash door).
    It also seep out of the glass on the door ( this stove has what is
    called wind-wash, and serves as the secondary air intake). I started
    some kindling when it started smoking out the entire room. I ran
    outside, and no smoke appeared to be coming out of the metal chimney,
    which is why my wife thinks there is a bird's nest in there. I think
    there is a draft but going down instead of up. This stove has the
    outlet coming out the back, and the smoke has to rise to the front-top,
    then back across the stove to the back outlet. I lit a match and put
    it up towards the fron top, and it didn't get sucked up, it actually
    blew out. How do I reverse the draft, or get it going in the right
    direction?
    
    I will have to get up on the roof and remove the metal cap just to
    make sure there are no bird nests ( I would think that if there WAS
    a nest, I wouldn't get any air coming down into the stove, right?).
    I am going to buy some small metal screen to attach to the top of the
    chimney to make sure no birds do get in there when I'm done.
    
    If I was to just use those fire starter briquettes under some coal,
    do you think that would start it ok. It says do do that on the package
    and not use kindling, but now I'm hesitant about that before getting
    any drafting problems taken care of.
    
    Also, I don't have a damper installed in the pipe, do I need one? 
    Without one, I would get maximum draft anyway, right?
    
	Thanks,    John

    RE: .6
    
    Two things:
    
    1. Forget the damper on the smoke pipe! They never work and they are
       not safe.
    
    2. It sounds like you may have an easy fix. Every coal stove I've seen
       has a two position handle. One position is "high draft" and the
       other is normal, or low draft. You start the stove on high draft
       position.  Are you using the normal or low draft position to start
       the stove? If so, thats not right.
    
    Marc H.

    Not sure if you said you got a manual with your stove. It should
    have the starting instruction, if not, see if you can get one. I
    have a coal stove in my finished basement so I have over 30 feet
    of chimney and a terrible down draft problem when my stove isn't 
    being used. How I get my draft started is by taking a sheet of 
    newspaper and roll it into a tube.  I light one end and stick it 
    into the flue pipe inside the stove. I will get a small amount of 
    smoke until the air in the pipe get hot then the draft reverses 
    quickly.  I'll have more newspaper and kindling loaded in the stove 
    ready to go and once the stove is drafting I'll light it, close the 
    top door and keep the lower ash door open until the kindling is 
    burning well.  I would not attempt to start any kindling until I had
    a good draft going otherwise I'd smoke the place out. Other folks 
    will just ball up a piece of newspaper and stick it in the flue and
    light it, it works too. I like to rolled technique since I can push 
    it up in the pipe a bit, it seems to get the draft working faster.
    I don't use a key damper on my stove pipe but I do use a barometric 
    damper which keeps an even draft across the coals. Once you get a 
    draft going you'd be surprised how it increases as it gets colder or 
    when the wind kicks up. It will help you have a better burn and a 
    steadier output.  Coals a pain to get used to but once you do you'll
    love it.  
    
    Ray   

    Thanks for the quick replies!
    
    re: .6
    
    Why aren't they safe? The Stove Place in Worcester, MA says it is a
    state law to have both a barometric damper and a key damper in the
    stove pipe. Maybe it was just to get a sale. If they don't work well,
    then I won't put one in. Won't I get full draft without one?
    
    This stove has a large turnable knob on the ash door which covers
    a couple of holes in the door. Opening up all the way counterclockwise
    gives full draft, and turning all the way clockwise turns down the
    draft for the primary air intake. I even did what the manual said and
    opened the ash door a little to maximize draft, but smoke came pouring
    out of that too!
    
    re: .7
    
    I have heard of the newspaper trick from a few people, I'll give it a
    try. The problem is that the outlet comes out the back of the stove,
    and the smoke has to go through the front-top of the stove, and back
    across the top to get to the stovepipe. I'm not much good at drawing
    but the following diagram gives an idea of how the smoke has to go
    to get to the stovepipe.
    
       ---------------\--
       |         <--   \  
       |   ----------   \
    ---   |           ^
    PIPE  |           | Smoke flow
    ---   |
       |  --------------
         /            \
    
    
    	Thanks for the advice!
    
    	John

    
    Is the "horizontal" part of the flue pipe set at a slight upward angle,
    or at least level?  A shot in the dark, but this was one of the
    problems with my Godin stove, of similar design.
    
    C

    RE: .9
    
    "damper "
    
    I haven't seen that in the state laws that I have. 
    
    The air/draft should only be controlled by the fresh air intake.
    If a damper in the smoke pipe is used to help control the draft, you 
    stand a very good chance of having CO and smoke enter the living space.
    
    A fixed damper is not useful on the smokepipe. A barometric damper
    can be useful under limited conditions, though.
    
    The above comments are based on hard found experiences.
    
    Marc H.

    If you have a barometric damper on the pipe then you could stick 
    the lighted paper in there to get the stack air moving. Based on 
    your picture that might be the easiest way. Until you can get the 
    draft issue understood I would not attempt to start any fires
    in the stove, you'll just get the same effect of smoking up your
    room. 
    
    Ray 

    re: .10
    
    There is an elbow coming right out of the stove horizontally, actually
    at a slight upward turn, but definitely not a downward turn.
    
    re: .12
    
    I don't have a barometric damper on the pipe, and am sort of confused
    now whether I should get one or not.   .10 leads me to believe CO
    could get into the room via the damper. I don't think I want to chance
    that.
    
    I'll try sticking a newspaper up into the top-front of the stove and
    see if that causes a draft to go up the chimney.
    
    Thanks,
    John

    I also thought that barometric dampers were a must on coal stoves.
    I don't know if it is code or not but everybody I speak to says if
    you have coal, use a barometric damper.   It may be just to keep the
    temp level, or if you get a sucking draft from winds to level that 
    off.  Not sure..

    RE: .14
    
    Coal and wood are sensitive to the draft, but, coal seems to be
    harder to control, and could benifit from a more constant
    draft. The barometric damper could help if the wind is real strong
    and the chimney location is such that the draft will increase with the
    wind.
    
    The damper isn't needed always.....
    
    Marc H.

    To get good coal stove performance you'll need a barometric damper.
    Since the air inlets on the stove do not meter the amount of air 
    supplied. As the pressure inside the chimney changes (more negative)
    your will pull more air into the stove increasing the the heat output.
    As long as your chimney is drafting as it should, you should not get
    CO in your house. My barometric damper is always open slightly and
    when the winds start it will sometimes open a good 1-2 inches. 
    So its drawing the excess air from the room, not through the stove.
    
    Ray 

    RE: Starting a Draft
    
      A trick that I used was to stick a hair dryer/heat gun into
    the barometric damper to heat the pipe up and also open up a
    window in the vicinity.  When the pipe was hot I'd take out the
    heat gun and cover the barometric damper with tin foil, while
    starting kindling with the ash-pan door open.  This worked for 
    me every time and mine always had a negative draft before
    starting.
                                                    FWIW-Jeff

Question about stove pipes.  We're getting a wood stove delivered today.
We have the chimney parts which we'll be venting into the same flue
as the oil burner (I've checked the two appliances into 1 flue note
already, and we have the town permit to fill out which says this is
OK to do, so that's not the question.) Basically the straight stove
pipe pieces are a rolled sheet which is open and looks like it should
fit together to make a circular pipe.  Does this just sort of snap
together with a little pushing and forcing and then stay like that,
or do I need to fasten it in some way.  I would have asked this question
when picking it up, but my wife picked them up and I didn't get to ask
at the store.

Thanks,
PeterT

    Yes - it should just snap together.  Pretty easy to do, not
    a big deal.
    

    It snaps together -- but joints *between* sections should be
    fastened.

Thanks, that's what I figured.  I knew the sections need to be fastened 
together.  My town's codes also indicate a damper is needed, which I 
did ask about while looking at them earlier.  Apparently just drill
and install.

PeterT

>
>together.  My town's codes also indicate a damper is needed, which I 
>did ask about while looking at them earlier.  Apparently just drill
>and install.
>

A couple o' things on dampers........

    Yes it is "just drill and install" BUT.........  drill the holes slightly
undersized and make damned sure they're dead centered in the pipe and aligned
along the same crosssectional plane.  You don't want the damper to foul.  A
tape measure around the pipe will do both quite well - just 'dent' the pipe
with a sharp blow to a philips screwdriver set at the drill site prior to
drilling to prevent the drill bit from 'walking' (a block of wood stuffed 
inside the pipe for denting and drilling will prevent gross disfiguration of 
the pipe....)

    Install the damper relatively close to the firebox so that the amount of 
stove pipe holding 'stagnant' exhaust gasses/smoke is negligible - less seams
to leak these gasses/smoke out of and less pipe to condense creosote etc. 
into.

- jw

Thanks for the hints.

PeterT

My wife has also suggested she might have someone 'more professional' come
and do this while I'm away at DECUS.  I told her I wouldn't be all that
offended ;-)

    Stupid question, But I am also installing an additional coal stove
    and the BI told me I need to install a damper along with the barometric
    one.   Why would I need a Damper????

Re:  .11

>
>My wife has also suggested she might have someone 'more professional' come
>and do this while I'm away at DECUS.  I told her I wouldn't be all that
>offended ;-)
>

Hire someone to build-n-install your stove pipe!?!   Is the stove in its
permanent position?  Is the thimble already in the flue?  If "yes" then
HIRE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!   I could use the easy money!!!!!!       1/2  ;-)

- jw

    RE: .12
    
    Good question....I see no reason for a damper in the smoke pipe, as
    long as you are using an air tight stive with intake controls. 
    
    In addition, a stove pipe damper is very dangerous.
    
    Marc H.

re: Damper is dangerous.  
Heck, I'd imagine it would get damn hot, and could possibly block smoke
you want escaping, but the damper I have, unlike my fireplace which 
basically blocks the flue, has a number of holes in it which would just
restrict the air flow, but not block it entirely.  Is there something
I'm missing here?  Normally I wouldn't see a need for one, but it
is listed as required in the town permit. 
 
As for the stove pipe installation.  The stove is in it's penultimate 
place.  Currently sitting on the concrete floor of the basement, but 
we eventually want to build a hearth and put it on top of that.
This is probably next spring/summer project.  I've got enough to do to
finish up the basement first.  The house was built with this arrangment
in mind, (or maybe they all are), as it has two separate flues, one
for the fireplace and one for the oil furnace with a lower opening into
that flue for the woodstove.  The opening is about 7-8 inches square,
an is of masonry chimney liner material surrounded by cinderclocks that
form the base of the fireplace.  The lower opening for the woodstove is
the same.  Currently the oil furnace just vents into the opening with
an 8" pipe shoved in and sealed with some mortar (looks mortar like at
least).  I was planning on doing something similar with the stove
pipe, but I was wondering if a thimble would be more efficient?
And how I would attach it to an opening that looks something like

			=========
			==     ==
                        ==     ==
                        ==     ==
                        =========
where the == are the cinder blocks.
Also, if I use the stove parts I have, the pipe is a bit too long for 
the distance needed.  I have 2 two foot parts, and 2 elbows.  Do they
make a smaller straight part, or do I need to cut the one I have?
Alternatively, I could move the stove over, till the existing parts,
fit, but that is aestheically less pleasing.

Thanks,
PeterT

    RE: .12
    
    Don't tell me, this was The Stove Place that said you need both the
    barometric damper and an internal flue damper. This place also tried
    to tell me it was a state law to have both. I got my permit with
    neither from the town of Auburn, Ma, no questions asked when they
    inspected my installation. I think they just want to make a sale.
    
    Good luck, my first experience with a brand new coal stove and
    installation was this year.
    
    John (who has beaten the downdraft problem, but can't get the coal
          to stop going out after being unattended to after a few hours)

    Nope it was the Boylston Ma. building inspector.    I have the sheet
    in my pocket and it is from the Ma. state building code commission,
    and it say's in the installation clearances section.
    " If a damper is not included in the stove construction, it must
    be installed in the connector pipe." 

    
    > John (who has beaten the downdraft problem, but can't get the coal
    >      to stop going out after being unattended to after a few hours)
    
    This is another black art - literally.  My sister still even COOKS
    on an Aga coal range.  The fire never goes out for the 6 winter months.
    
    The trick is to have a plentiful supply of small coal and `bank' the
    fire - cover it with small coal & coal dust until you can't see an
    ember.  it will stay hot & burn internally for up to 8 hours this way.
    
    Shut down the air and draft as much as you can and leave it.  whan you
    return just poke a few airholes and open the airflow, max the draft.
    it may need a bit of fatwood, but it'll be back in a few mins.
     
   Colin
    

    RE: .17
    
    That's my point. Modern stoves all have dampers......input air
    controls, so you don't need or want a damper on the smoke pipe.
    
    Marc H.

Related question --

I just hooked up some 4" ductwork to feed my wood furnace from outside, but I've 
been unable to find a manual damper for the 4" ductwork.  Any ideas for places
in the Westborough-Marlborough area?  I didn't see any at H.Q. or Somerville
Lumber. 

								-- Chuck Newman

Re:  974.15

>
>an 8" pipe shoved in and sealed with some mortar (looks mortar like at
>least).  I was planning on doing something similar with the stove
>pipe, but I was wondering if a thimble would be more efficient?
>And how I would attach it to an opening that looks something like
>
    IF you can fit the 8" thimble into the block opening you'll have a
nicer look AND a better set-up.  Make sure the thimble is just past flush
with the INSIDE of your flue (no more than 1/2 inch).  The exposed portion of 
the thimble can extend out from the chimney into the room from just past flush 
to several inches....  Fill the parameter voids (round peg in a square
hole...) with mortar and pieces of cinder block.  You will then be able to
insert your stove pipe well into the thimble, chink with firebox "caulking"
(4get the name - comes in a caulking tube and is fire/heat resistant - black)
this way you can easily remove your stove pipe for cleaning every couple o'
years.


>
>the distance needed.  I have 2 two foot parts, and 2 elbows.  Do they
>make a smaller straight part, or do I need to cut the one I have?
>Alternatively, I could move the stove over, till the existing parts,
>fit, but that is aestheically less pleasing.
>
    Prior to fixing the seam of the section of stove pipe cut it to length 
using a pair of tin snips.  You know the seam that runs the length of the 
section of pipe - the one you have to force together to make a tube out of a 
sheet.  If you've already mated the seam you can use a hack saw but I find 
it's easier to disconnect the seam and tin snip the cut.  You'll get a very 
ragged and SHARP edge that should be taken down with a grinding wheel or 
rasp/file.

- jw

    re:.18
    
    That's probably my problem, I get a nice bed of coals going, but then
    only put in a couple of small shovel amounts on top of that. For some
    reason, I fear that loading a bunch of coal on top of this would only
    smother the coals already burning, or not get the new coals burning.
    
    Is it ok at this point to put a bit of wood on top of the new coals
    to help catch it, or will the red hot coals underneath get the new
    coal on top burning.
    
    Please explain "banking" the coals. If I remember correctly from my
    coal book, you bank the coals away from the burning coals, but how do
    they get burning?
    
    Thanks,
    	John

    RE: .22
    
    Shovel on the coal. The coal burns from the bottom......more on top is
    fine. 
    
    Only problem is when the fresh coal is first on, some methane gas is 
    produced, that can ......rarely....get trapped and sometimes light
    with a small poof.
    
    Marc H.

    I know nothing about coal, but I always thought "banking" was putting
    the fuel and embers close together and against a vertical surface.  In
    the fireplaces, that's pushing everything to the back...

    
    Marc's right - you can just shovel it on.
    
    "Banking" is the way coal fires are kept in overnight.  Make a small
    pyramid sloping towards the fireback & cover with small coal, ash
    etc to stop air getting at the heart of the fire.  It looks as if the
    fire is dead, but it comes back very quickly once you poke it to allow
    air in.
    

    re:20
    What your looking for is called a blast gate. You can get them from a
    Heating Ventation Air Conditioning(HVAC) Supplier or a Woodworking Supply 
    House. The later carries them for use in dust collection systems.
    
    /Jim

    Ok, using some hints based in this file I've got the stovepipe
    hooked up to the stove, 3 sheetmetal screws in the joins between
    stovepipe parts, pipe shoved into the flue and cemented with 
    furnace cement.  Looks pretty good.  But, the installation
    directions were somewhat vague about joining the stove to the
    stovepipe.  Right now it is just shoved into the opening about
    an inch or two deep, but not fastened.  Sheetmetal screws might 
    be possible, but drilling installing through the stove (lip
    for want of a better word) seems a bit more involved than 
    through the stovepipe itself, due to the thickness/hardness
    of the lip.  In the installation instructions, it suggested
    using furnace cement for one type of pipe (the double, or 
    triple walled one I think) but not for the type I'm using.
    
    Is there a way to fasten this?  Should I be fastening this?
    It seems like furnace cement may be the way to go, but
    I'm not totally sure.  One thing that concerns me a bit, is that
    though the pipe fits in fairly securely, there is a small gap
    in the back in which I can see the light from the flames, 
    but which I have not noticed any smoke drifting out in test
    burns.  I did manage to set off the smoke detector, but
    I think that was due to not having the door fully closed and
    having to deal with my daughter which caused me to be away from
    the stove while firing up and not noticing the smoke (the 
    door was closed, but not latched shut)  After playing, familiarizing
    myself with it a bit more, I think I've got it down now, but I
    still am wondering about that gap.  Seal it, or is it something
    fairly normal?
    
    PeterT
    
    

    Re: .27
    
    Small gaps are O.K., since the draft will not allow smoke to escape.
    What you want, is the pipes to be secure...i.e. held in good.
    
    Marc H.

    
    Peter - Where's the gap? You won't get smoke from it whenever the draft
    is working properly, and if it isn't, you'll get smoke from other
    places too. But on a woodburning stove, ANY space that can allow
    unheated air to enter the flue is bad. Because 1. It decreases the flue
    gas temp which will increase your creosote deposits and 2. Takes draft
    away from what would otherwise be going through the stove.
    
      I think you should seal up that gap if possible. You also *should*
    screw the pipe to the stove the same as between the sections. (if it
    ever were to fall out while the stove was going well - you'd have BIG
    problems!)
    				Kenny

The gap is where the stove pipe section fits into the stove, right where the
seam in the stove pipe sits.  It appears (and I'm not 100 percent sure about
this) that the ring on the stove itself is welded at that point too,
and the two being slightly out of round has made a small gap.  Not noticable
when I sat it in place, but with a fire going, it was easy to see the 
light through it.  I was fairly sure no air was getting out as the
draft is pretty good, but I can understand the point about air getting
in and lowering the stovepipe/flue temperature.  I'll work on it some more,
maybe tomorrow if it snows a lot and I can't make it in.  Starting up
the wood stove will at least make it nice and cozy downstairs where my
computer and modem sit ;-)  
Yeah, I guess I should screw the pipe in place.  I just have to find the right
drill bit, which is floating somewhere around the house.  Unorganized, who me??
;-)

Thanks,
PeterT

    Does anyone have updated info on corn stoves?  Does anyone have one?
    My brother is looking into them and was told by one wood stove dealer
    that corn stoves are tough to use in the northeast because the corn is
    too moist.  The dealer was not trying to sell him another stove since
    my brother did not live in the area, so the info may carry some
    credibility.

    He will be living near the coast in Mass, so the air will be damp, but
    does this really affect the corn (feed stock) to the extent that the
    corn stove is not practical?

    Thanks for any info,

    ---Phil

    (also posted to STOVES)

    I have a buddy who lives in Dudley, Mass area.  He bought a corn stove
    a year ago, and is not happy with it.  Does not seem to pump out the 
    heat he expected, and has already had to have gaskets replaced.  I 
    favor the pellet stoves.  
    
    He did say that it is a different feel to the heat, however, stove does
    not put out enough heat on the first floor of his house.
    
    Randy
    

    	I have a friend that is pleased with his corn stove. It evidently
    pumps out adequate heat for his needs. I would think that if you're
    storing the corn locally over the non-heating season that humidity
    might be a factor, but my friend buys it a few bags at a time as he
    needs it and has had no such problems.
    
    	About his only complaint is that it will not work if you lose
    power. Something about a blower and/or the feed system that requires
    power and the stove requires it to run.
    
    	Ray

    Thanks to .14 and .15 for the info, I'll pass it along.  See note 308 in
    STOVES also if anyone wants some more info.

    ---Phil

    
    Does anyone have a recommendation for someone in the Littleton, MA area
    who could perform a small installation for me?  I need to move a
    woodstove from one room into a living room and vent it using an
    existing fireplace.  I'll need someone to handle the damper work, and
    doing the necessary fireproofing of the floor.
    
    I looked in the phone book under "chimney services" and only saw one ad
    that seemed to do the work.  I called them and made an appointment, but
    when they found out what town I'm in, they claimed they didn't travel
    that far.  (But they waste their money to advertize in the town's phone
    directory!  Go figure...)
    
    Thanks.
    
    Marc
    

    Why not check with the woodstove store on RTE 119 right at the junction
    of 495 and find out who does installations for them.
    
    Can't remember their name possible Littleton Woodstove Store.
    
    Judie
    
    

    Could a chimney be I designed with two flues, one for gas burner and one
    for both a 1st floor fireplace and a wood stove in the basement?  
    
    I realize that this might be a stretch as a blockage could cause
    woodstove smoke to go into the house via the fireplace. I could built
    it with three flues but I'd like to avoid the additional cost of a bigger 
    chimney with three flues and have the option of connecting a woodstove in 
    the basement at some time in the future.
    
    Thanks,
    Bill
    
    
    

    I'm not a "code" expert, but my memory tells me it's seen it said
    somewhere that "two on a flue" violates building codes in general.
    It also strikes me as a bad idea irrespective of code. The damper in
    the fireplace is unlikely to be really airtight, so you'd get
    exhaust gases from the woodstove leeching into the room with the
    fireplace on those poor draft days (even worse if you forget to
    close the damper).
    
    Flues are a major safety issue, and I'd think major safety issues
    are the wrong place to try to save a dime.

Wood stoves can't share the same flue with a working fireplace. It's against
code here in Massachusetts, and, I suspect, elsewhere.  Here in MA it is 
possible to put a wood stove into the same flue with an oil burner (entry
into the flue has to be at least 6 inches below the oil burner entry).
It may be possible to do the same with a gas burner, but something in the
back of my mind is whispering that that particular setup is not kosher.
Check before you start anything.  Woodstoves can be put into a 
fireplace, but in that case, they are taking up the volume of the fireplace,
and you effectively turn your fireplace into a woodstove holder.

PeterT

    Recently I had occasion to remove a wood burning stove from my house. I
    plan on putting it in the paper to sell but have no idea what to ask.
    
    It's cast iron with front and side doors, in very good condition.
    
    Any info would be most appreciated.
    
    Thanks,

The PORI::STOVES conference might be a good place to ask.  It would help if
you knew the brand, model, size and age.

				Steve

    	After looking in ::STOVES and still not finding what I was looking
    for, I figured I'd ask here. 
    
    	I currently have a fireplace that has the 12"x12" O.D. square liner
    tiles and was considering putting a woodstove in. Does anyone know off
    hand if anyone makes an adapter to a flue liner of that size to go to a
    6-7" round pipe typically found on a woodstove ?
    
    	Also, what I'd like to do (and not sure if it can be done) is to
    place a woodstove *in* the fireplace. Is this possible ? I have an
    insert now and, although it's nice for ambiance and maybe a small
    place (I have a 2500 sq. ft house), it does little to nothing to heat
    my place.
    	
    	What I was hoping to do is basically something like so -
    			|12"tile|	
    		=========================
    			 |    |		||
    			 |    |		||
    			 |    |		||
    	+-----------------------+	||
    	|			|	||	
    	|	STOVE		|	||
    	|			|	||
    	|			|	||
    	+_______________________+	||
    	   ||              ||		||
     =====================================
    	|
    	| <-- Brick front with slight hearth				
        |     overhang 
    
    
    	Posible ?......Ray

    Vermont Castings (and probably others) sells an adapter that runs a
    flexible steel pipe (oval dimensions) through an open damper (with a
    pair of metal fittings to "fill in" the damper opening around the
    pipe) and up into an existing (larger) flue. You could use something
    like this if your existing flue is in good condition and otherwise
    provides adequate draft.
    
    IF you need a smaller chimney the whole way up because 12x12 is too
    large for good draft, you can also get flexible (or rigid) lining to
    slide down inside the existing flue. The woodstove shop on Rte 119
    just down the road from LKG is a good source of information (there
    are undoubtedly others in NH as well).

    	Does a larger opening equate to a poorer draft ? The fireplace
    insert that's currently in there seemed to work OK in regards to being
    able to build a decent fire. When you open the door to put more wood in
    you can *really* see a good draft, but I assume this is normal due to the
    rising hot air.
    
    	Ray

Yes, larger does mean poorer draft. That was the problem with my fireplace
originally, and it used to pour smoke into the living room until the
fire really got going (which it hardly ever did, as it caused too much
smoke in the house.)  Then the night my daughter was born, being all alone
in the house after many hours in the hospital, I taped, or otherwise
attached some aluminum foil across the top half of the fireplace and 
had the first really nice fire I'd had in the house.  We've since had
a custom built fireplace door installed, and that really helps out 
with improving the draft.  Our fireplace has a nice arch in it, but the
larger opening with the curved top made the draft too slow.  The tin
foil test was basically covering the arch, making it a smaller rectangular
opening.

PeterT

    A large flue translates to a much larger volume of air occupying the
    chimney. When this air is cold (no fire yet), it takes a lot more to
    push it out of the way to accommodate the hot air that wants to rise
    through the same space. It also means that the smoke rises more
    slowly (same amount of smoke + larger volume = lower speed) giving
    it more opportunity to cool on the way up (and condense as
    creosote). Low smokey fires and large diameter flues are great for
    setting up chimney fires.
    
    I'm sure there's more to it than that, else .-1's story of the foil
    wouldn't make sense (by blocking off part of the flue at the top of
    the fireplace, he'd increase the velocity of the smoke through that
    opening, but it would slow down again as soon as it got into the
    large flue, right?), but having inserted an 8" flex liner into my
    12x12" flue I wound up with a much stronger draft than before
    (sometimes it seems a bit too strong, but the strong draft coupled
    with a catalytic stove gives me almost nothing to do come chimney
    cleaning time: I used to get a grocery bag full of creosote each
    year with the 12x12 flue and my old Defiant; now with the 8" flue
    and catalytic Defiant Encore I get about a cup of creosote a year).

    re:18
    
    	Are you talking about the flue opening or the fireplace opening ?
    Just to make sure we're in sync, I was asking about the flue opening.
    
    	I pulled the insert out the other night and was amazed at how
    large the damper is going to have to be. When you install the insert
    it says to remove the damper completely. Unfortunately, the previous
    owner never saved it.
    
    	The opening for the fireplace is massive compared to the insert.
    It has a plate metal backing and partially covers the sides. It looks
    something like this from a top view -
    
    		  ---------
    		 /	   \
    		/	    \
    
    	It looks as though you could easily get 2-3 times as much wood going
    in the fireplace than in the insert. The actual opening is 27"H x 36.5"W 
    by 30"D. I suspect that may be one of the inefficencies of the fireplace.
    
    	If I opted to burn in the fireplace, a glass door would be a must.
    I did experience a down draft when first lighting a fire. The insert
    directions said to ignite some newspaper to get the draft going. I
    suspect the same requirement would exist for the fireplace.
    
    	I'm still thinking that I may be better off with the fireplace.
    With the fireplace, I can close down the damper to prevent so much heat
    from going up the flue *and* heat the surrounding brick. This seems as 
    though it would be better in a power outage too, as the insert requires 
    the fans to get any significant heat out of it.
    
    	Ray

Ah... I was talking about the fireplace opening, rather than the flue
opening.  I think some of the same principles apply, though it seems
to me that there is some law of diminishing returns, ie, having a 1 
inch square flue opening might make for a powerful draft, but it
is unlikely to handle a large smokey fire.  There's probably some sort
of formula for converting flue diameter/length of flue into optimal
fireplace/woodstove insert size, but I don't have it handy.  

PeterT

    
    I think Paul's analysis is pretty much correct. But to understand why
    closing off the top half of the fireplace opening keeps smoke out of
    the room, try this thought experiment.
    
    Turn the system upside down and imagine the fireplace opening is a
    funnel into which you pour water. The fireplace opening is like having
    a large gap in the side of the funnel -- if the bottom of the funnel
    can't handle the flow of water, some water will pour out of the gap.
    Similarly, if the flue can't take all the smoke, some will pour out the
    top half of the fireplace opening.
    
    Covering the top half of the fireplace opening is like patching the gap
    in the side of the funnel. This keeps the more buoyant hot air and
    smoke inside, where it can work to push out the column of cold air in
    the flue.
    
    But to avoid the problem completely, try placing one sheet of newspaper
    up inside the flue. Then set up the paper, kindling, and wood for the
    fire. Light the newspaper in the flue. The draft will become evident
    almost immediately -- then light the fire.
    
    JP

        You really shou8ld have a professional look at the stove.  Last
	year, our chimney sweep looked at our wood stove (he also sold
	wood stoves) and pointed out a crack near the back.  He told me
	that the stove would last a while longer with the crack but we
	were to keep an eye on it.  It the crack gets larger, we can
	replace the back of the stove for a couple hundred dollars.  If
	we wait too long, we'll have to replace the whole wood stove
	which will cost much more than a couple hundred!


	Karen

    
    
    Have you thought of welding it for a fix.  might be less
    expensive seeing from you note, you can remove the back...
    
    JD

    	Although this should probably go into an insert note, I'll put it
    here kind of as a status/afterthought to .20. I've had about 6 fires in
    the fireplace since pulling out the insert and installing the firescreen. 
    I'm at least equalling the output of the insert and I still don't even 
    have the damper yet.
    
    	I did wind up putting a small boxer fan in one of the vent openings
    to suck the heat out from around the space between the inner and outer
    area within the fireplace. This made a big difference and I'm looking
    to get another fan for the other side.
    
    	A friend was baffled at first as to why the insert wasn't pumping
    out more heat. After looking at what I had, I essentially had an insert
    within an insert. Probably not the most efficient way to go and I
    suspect it was a signicant part of the problem. The insert was not able
    to pass any heat to the surrounding brick since it had another insert
    barrier to pass through first.
    
    	Ray

    
    Just as an FYI:
    
    	The much-referenced PORI::STOVES conference has been moved to 
    	a read-only conference on FIEVAL::STOVES until someone volunteers
    	to offer it a home.
    
    	(I have nothing to do with it... just want to see it open up again)
    
    								- Mac

>STOVES Conference needs home.
I've been waiting to see this.

Someone please accept this offer !!!

Actually, I took that offer a few weeks ago and STOVES is now at HUMANE::STOVES.

j.

No wonder I haven't been able to find the sucker!

PeterT

Did you look in EASYNET_CONFERENCES?  That's where conference moves get
announced.  I see the announcement there - made two weeks ago.

			Steve

    
    I searched EASYNET_CONFERENCES the first time and discovered
    that it had been given a temporary read-only home of FIEVAL...
    
    So of course, I've been watching the FIEVAL::STOVES conference
    for the announcement of STOVES final home. Of course, the copy
    still sits on FIEVAL:: with no mention of its move to HUMANE.
    
    							- Mac

> Did you look in EASYNET_CONFERENCES?  That's where conference moves get
> announced.  I see the announcement there - made two weeks ago.

What?  A conference to announce other conferences?  Sigh....

uh, the answer is no ;-)

PeterT

Since the conference now sits on a system owned by the person who maintains
EASYNOTES.LIS, I'm sure it will be in there soon :-).  When I last popped
by his office, he was in the middle of updating.

For now, I'll get a pointer placed on FIEVEL.

j.

    I just had my house vinyl sided and had front and back steel doors
    installed, along with full-view storms.  After the storms were
    installed, I was advised not to use the glass insert, as the heat
    would build up and "fry" the four coats of paint on the steel doors.
    Had I know this, I would have used a more structured door, like a
    cross buck, because using the screen only in these storms (one of
    which will get a lot of use) will only wear out the bottom half of
    the screen quickly.  
    
    Have any of you had any bad experiences with using the glass in a 
    full-view door over a steel entry door that's painted?  Have you
    been able to use your glass storm where the sun shines on it most
    of the afternoon, without a problem?
    
    Thanks for your usual good advice
    
    
    

Does anyone have info on pellet stoves?  Pros & cons?  Where's a good 
place to buy one? 

Look in the humane::stoves notes file.

  4347  SUPER::HARRIS        22-AUG-1991    12  Wood Pellet Stoves 

    My parents use to have one, BUT:
    
    
    1. When the power goes out, no heat because the fan is still run by
       electric source.
    2. Can not cook on like old stoves, has a casting around and this 
       doesn't get hot enough to cook on.
    3. Pellets cose about 5.00 - 8.00 a bag and goes only a few days on
       each bag.
    
    send mail if you need more info, helped install and de-install
    
    ics::catorio

    See HUMANE::STOVES
    
    I run one and love it.
    
   > 1. When the power goes out, no heat because the fan is still run by
        electric source.
    
        There are units available that have battery backup capability. But
    	nontheless, they are not a good primary heat source in an area 
        where there are a LOT of power outages.
    
   > 3. Pellets cose about 5.00 - 8.00 a bag and goes only a few days on
        each bag.
    
      I don't know where your parents buy pellets but they're getting 
      royally screwed. Premium pellets (EUREKA) sell for about $3.75
      a bag during peak usage season (when they're most expensive) at
      most reputable places... but can be found for $4.25 at less 
      reputable places. I have yet to see a bag go over that.
    
      Prices are even cheaper if bought before October... cheaper yet 
      if bought mid-summer.
    
    After scoping out most sources in what seemed like nearly all of 
    New England, I feel the best place for stoves and fuel is "The Stove
    Shop" in Salem NH.  Despite living within a mile of a stove dealer
    and fuel supplier in Littleton (who I avoid like the plague). After
    experimenting with numerous brands of pellets... I always return to
    EUREKA brand.
    
    Also keep in mind, when gasping at the prices of pellet stoves verses
    traditional wood stoves, that most pellet stoves these days are direct
    venting and require no chimney (if you don't have a chimney you have to 
    add a cost of $30-35 an uninstalled foot for metalbestos to the price
    of your traditional woodstove).
    
    Feel free to drop me any questions. I'll probably be heading north this 
    weekend to pick up a pallet of pellets. ;-)
    
    			
    								- Mac  
    

    I recently purchased one and I love it.  I cranked it up for the first
    time last night and couldn't believe the amount of heat it puts out.
    This is going to be a great winter - no more stacking wood, bugs,
    cleaning bark off the floor, and hearing "Hon, can you bring in some more
    wood!".
    
    Home Depot starting selling the Englander Pellet Stove (and pellets)
    this year.  In fact, the store in Nashua has a demo set up outside
    operating.  The stoves are priced around $1500 and the pellets are
    about $190 a ton (a ton equals 2 cords of wood).
    
    Chip
    
    

    
    Has Home Depot gotten into the pellet-selling business as well?
    
    If so, what brand pellets do they sell?
    
    
    								- Mac

     Re> Has Home Depot gotten into the pellet-selling business as well?
    
    Yup, They plan to stock the pellets all year.  The brand is "Stove
    Chow".

    Purina, no doubt.

    
    Actually, Stove Chow is a very well known brand.
    
    Stove Chow, although a "Premium" pellet has had some serious quality 
    problems. It produces a tremendous amount of fly ash when compared with 
    (my favorite) Eureka and was one of the few brands I tested that
    produced clinkers.
    
    Last year two dealers (at least one of which was very reputable and
    carried Stove Chow as well as others) told me of having customers
    complain of finding nuts and bolts in their Stove Chow.
    
    I don't know what THIS year's prices are, but $190 per ton of Stove 
    Chow is not a particularly good price... especially at this time of 
    year.
    
    Anyway, my suggestion to new pellet stove buyers is always:
    
      Buy 5 bags or so of various fuel brands before making a bulk
    purchase, there's a BIG difference between brands even if they are 
    all rated "Premium".
    
    
    								- Mac

    Thanks for the advise for us new owners.  However, what are clinkers?

    
    Clinkers are unburned "chunks" or residue left behind. Sometimes 
    it's due to sand or other unbrunable material getting into the 
    pellet making process. You're like;y to get them once in a while, but
    if you get them frequently you should be concerned about material
    being in the mix that can harm your auger. Way back in the beginning 
    low-quality pellets caused havoc with augers and initially gave pellet
    stoves a bad name.
    
    								- Mac 

    Home Depot lowered their price for a ton of (Stove Chow) pellets to $170.

    I have this style chimney, and since it's getting cold the news
    is running a lot of "fire avoidance" deals....
    
    a typical chimney fire is caused by a buildup of pitch, right?
    And the fire burns through the masonry and catches the rest of the
    house of fire and you have problems...
    but I have a steel pipe... is a chimney fire rare in this style of
    chimney, and *if* I were unluckey enough to have a chimney fire,
    how destructive would it be? Would I even know there was a fire
    somewhere in the chimney?  (assuming my house isn't burning down at
    this point).
    
    I know, I've been meaning to have the chimney cleaned for a while
    but I figured I'd ask this question in here.
    
    MadMike

    I don't believe the type of flue has much to do with the frequency
    of chimney fires.  If you burn a "dirty" fire, you'll get creosote
    buildup in any type of flue.
    
    As for danger...if by steel pipe you mean a single-wall stovepipe,
    then it's probably more dangerous than a masonary chimney because
    the outside will get toasty-red hot if you have a chimney fire.
    If you're talking about an insulated metal chimney, then it's
    probably a toss-up.  It's as safe (or as dangerous) as a
    well-constructed masonary chimney.  My guess.
    

>> Would I even know there was a fire somewhere in the chimney? 

We had a minor chimney fire in a fireplace chimney once, and it sounded like a
747 was flying thru our livingroom.  Fortunately, we were able to close the
damper, which put it out.  To be safe, we had the entire thing inspected before
lighting another fire.

    	Apparently, one of the dangers of a chimney fire in a masonary
    chimney with the typical clay tiles (liner) is that the tiles can crack
    and allow carbon monoxide to escape into the house. I suspect that
    steel chimney doesn't have the same problem.
    
    	I know of no way, short of removing bricks to inspect the tiles, to
    see if they did get cracked as a result of a fire. It is possible to
    replace the clay tiles with a steel liner, but the cost to do this is
    about the say as replacing the tiles.
    
    	Ray

When they inspected our chimney, it was done with a mirror on a pole.  Granted,
the chimney was very short.

    re:11
    
    	I'm not sure how visible cracks would be on the inside of the
    tiles. I would think that creosote would tend to fill them in/disguise
    them a bit. It's much easier to see the cracks from the outside, but of
    course, more difficult to get at.
    
    	I wound up switching from a chimney for my furnace to a power vent on
    a house I had just bought. We had a chimney sweep in prior to the start
    of the heating season. When he saw the tiles (the outside was exposed in 
    the basement) he freaked. 
    
    	The tile cracks did not look that bad from the outside, and were 
    probably not even visable from the inside. He, and others we had in for 
    tile replacement estimates, said that the likely cause for the cracks was 
    a chimney fire.
    
    	Ray

    What causes a lot of the build up is what you use to light the fire.
    We had a fire once and it ended up burnin a good portion of the house.
    As suggested it is good to have it inspected and cleaned every year.
    I also suggest you clean it about half way throght the winter if you
    use it a lot.  Most hardware stores sell brushes that attach to poles,
    or you could weight it down and use a rope.  You should also get a long
    brush and brush the damper off.  If you do do it yourself seal the front
    off and stick a vac hose in to cut the dust.  
    
    By the way newspaper is the worst thing to start a fire with. 
    
    Gary

    re: Newspaper is bad to start a fire
    
    What do you recommend to start a fire?

    re:13
    
    	Missed it. Must'a been a real flamer though ;-)
    
    re:15
    
    	I use newspaper all the time. Never heard it was bad. Could you
    please elaborate on why it's bad ? Sounds like I may need to change my 
    burning habits :-(
    
    	Ray

    
    It's been a few years since I burned wood as my main heat source, so
    this info may be somewhat out of date. MadMike asked about the
    destructiveness of a chimney fire in a "steel pipe" chimney, and Steve
    Wellcome pointed out that there is plain old steel stovepipe and the
    double-wall stainless insulated stuff.
    
    When I first installed a the double-wall stuff (about 15 years ago), it
    cost about $1/inch of pipe. I'm not sure about the following, but I
    have read that this insulation can be destroyed in a very hot chimney
    fire, which would require replacing this expensive chimney pipe. Anyone
    have any more info on this?
    
    Hmmm, newspaper has to be the single most common firestarting material
    in the western world. Exactly what is supposed to be "bad" about using
    it? It _is_ known that burning colored newspaper can destroy the
    catalyst in one of those stovepipe-heat-extractor devices.
    
    JP

They sell "stuff" that causes creosote to break down or at least not build
up.  Either it, or something I do, works well.

I have a non airtight fireplace insert, and after not cleaning the chimney
for quite some time, I decided I was pushing my luck and got up on my
roof and looked down the chimney to see how bad the creosote was.  To my
suprise the flue was nearly spotless, almost as if it had never been used.  It
was cleaner than the flue for my oil furnace.

I always use newspaper for starting a fire.  I also used the crystals that
supposedly prevent creosote buildup fairly regularly.  I even burn small
amounts of pine (well aged, and never more than a piece at a time with other
wood) which is supposed to be terrible as far as creosote goes.

-Mike

    re: .19
    
    One key to your lack of creosote: "non airtight fireplace insert..."
    the significant word being "non."  
    As long as you burn with sufficient (or excess) air, you'll do pretty
    well.  Severe creosote buildup occurs when people stuff a load of
    wood into an airtight stove and cut the draft way down in an effort
    to get a long burn time out of it.  When I was burning wood, I hardly
    ever had noticable smoke coming out the chimney, because I gave the
    fire enough air so it would really burn, and I had minimal buildup
    in the chimney.
    
    I don't think newspaper (within reason) is a problem.  The only
    problem I've heard of is colored ink residues damaging catalytic 
    inserts.

    
    Steve is exactly right about air starvation being the primary cause of
    creosote buildup. But I did things a bit differently when I was
    burning wood for heat.
    
    The holy grail of woodstove owners is an all-night burn that keeps the
    house comfy. A bonus is to have some coals remaining in the morning so
    that you can jump out of bed, rake the coals forward to the stove vent,
    add some wood, open the damper and vent, and jump back in bed until the
    fire is roaring and the place is warm.
    
    So my approach was to turn the stove 'way down at night to achieve
    this. But I made sure that at least once per day, for at least
    20 minutes, the stove was wide-open and roaring. I was basically
    shooting for a small chimney fire every day, rather than a large and
    uncontrollable chimney fire at some random time. I would clean the
    chimney once a year but the creosote buildup was always minimal.
    
    JP

    
    My chimney fire experience leads me to believe that it is the burning
    ambers shooting out of the pipe and landing on the roof that cause the
    problem and PANIC.   
    
    In my previous house I had a woodstove that I had to stop feeding so
    that it would go out and I could scoop out the ash.  I'd fill it at night
    for a slow burn and in the morning I'd throw a few pieces onto the hot
    coals.   I practiced the planned burns as mentioned in .21 but I tried
    to plan these while there was snow on the roof.
    
    Bill     
    

  Hi, I have a coal stove in my basement (semifinished).  Currently we leave 
      the basement door open for the heat to rise.  I want to put a vent in 
      floor above the stove and a return at the other end of the the house.
      Is there a minimum size requirement for both?  Or will just having
      something help?

                              Thanks

                                Tom