Conference 7.286::home_work

    	What kind of pipes ?  Water ? Waste ? Heating ?  ??
    

    
    
    	Sorry good question.
    
    	It is a oil furnace with forced water I believe.
    	Will find out more from the person who owns the house.
    
    

    If it's forced water then the radiators probably have a little nozzle
    on them.  The nozzle uses a special little "key" (costs about 19
    cents at a hardware store - I just bought a new one).   That key
    allows you to open the nozzles and release the air that builds up.
    I do this every few weeks during the heating season.   I use an
    old plastic milk jug and traipse about the house checking out the
    radiators.
    
    There is also the possibility that the overflow tank needs attention.
    However, I know essentially nothing about that aspect.  Perhaps
    someone could shed some enlightenment on that.
    
    - Ben

Ben Thomas (see .3) is right if you have panel radiators. My house in England
had panels, and at the start of each winter I wandered round the house with
a bowl and a key, and bled the air out of each radiator panel.

But my house in Merrimack has baseboard heaters, and I can't find any
valves to let the air out. The system is getting real noisy, and I'm on
the verge of paying someone to come in and cure it. I did find some kind
of cannister attached to the heating pipes in the basement. It's about
a foot in diameter and about eighteen inches long, and I think it's 
pressurized. We had the pressure relief valve on the boiler pop a couple
of winters ago, and the guy who came to fix it replaced the cannister I
mentioned. I guess the cannister takes care of pressure variations in the
system, but how do you get the air out???

- Roger

    If you have baseboard heaters then you bleed the system from a valve
    near the furnace. There should be a faucet in the hot water return
    line and a valve just downstream of it. If you trace where all of
    the pipes go you'll see that there is a pipe which supplies water
    from your normal water pipes into the furnace water system. This
    has an automatic valve which opens when pressure in the furnace
    system drops too low.
    
    So, first you have to (logically) split the furnace piping by closing
    the valve which is just downstream of the faucet mentioned before.
    You should see that the faucet and the automatice supply valve are
    on opposite sides of this valve you just shut. Now, get a bucket
    or connect a hose between the faucet and your sump pump and open
    the faucet. This will remove water, and the air will come with it
    as fresh water flows into the system through the automatic supply
    valve. When you get a steady stream out of the faucet then you have
    all the air out, or as much as you're going to get. Shut the faucet
    and open the isolation valve and you're done.
    
    Don't forget to shut the isolation valve, otherwise you will make
    no progress at all. I wouldn't recommend fooling with the pressurizer
    tank, by the way. I'm not certain of exactly how they work but expect
    that if you bleed off the pressure on the air side you could reduce
    the performace of your system and add to the amount of water hammer
    you get.
    
    In all of this, BEWARE OF HOT WATER!! I almost scalded myself last
    fall doing this.

                Sometimes a baseboard will have a bleeder valve at one 
        or more high points in the system. Look for an elbow with a 
        screw in it. 
                
                        /s/     Bob

    Also, some hot water systems will have an automatic air eliminator
    (my parents' house has one) that sits on the pipes around the boiler
    somewhere.  (it looks lots like the air valves on steam radiators)
    This may be bad (if you have one)
    
    If you don't have one, you may want to install one (they're available
    at plumbing supply/heating supply outlets)
    
    
    -bill

RE: .7

I found the automatic air eliminators in my system, right near the boiler.
The valve is cylindrical, about 1.5" diameter by maybe 3" long, copper
colored. 

There were two, one sitting right by the pressure tank, the other at the
top of the last vertical run of return pipe. Both tucked neatly up between
the joists. One had a label on it which could not be read because of the
joists (the other one didn't have a label at all). I carefully peeled it
off, and it said something like "for best results, cap should be loosened
at least 2 turns". Sitting on top of each valve is a screw cap very 
similar to the cap on a tire valve. On both air eliminators, they were
screwed down tight. I removed one, and I heard a puff of air escape. But
water started to seep out too; I guess that's why the previous owner had
screwed them down tight. Under the cap is a spring-loaded pin, again like
a tire valve. I pressed this a few times, more air and a jet of water
escaped (fortunately I was wearing rubber gloves as the water was hot). 
I was hoping that by depressing the pin a few times it would re-seat and
be water-tight, but it still leaks water a little. The other one lets a
steady stream of water out.

Anyway, I unscrewed the caps a few times during the day to let air escape,
but screwed them back down each time to stop the leaks. The heating system
was nice a quiet last night.

Now I need to repair/replace the air eliminators. I don't know if the
spring-pin part is replaceable, or if I have to get a new pair of air
eliminators. Either way, the repair can wait till the weather is warmer
so I can drain the system out before removing the parts.

Thanks for the pointers,

- Roger

    
    We have baseboard noise, too, but our problem couldn't be water.
    We have electric baseboard heat... each room is individually
    controlled... 
    
    Is there any way to eliminate/decrease the noise that we hear
    when we turn the heat on?  I suspect it's just the metal ele-
    ment expanding, in which case we're out of luck.
    
    If we kick the heat up a little in the bedroom at night, the
    clicking/banging/ticking invariably rattles me just as I'm
    about to drop off to sleep...
    
    Any suggestions (aside from switching to another method of
    heating)???
    
    Thanks.
    

    re .9
    
    I had similar noises emenating from my forced hot water baseboards.
    I found a really perfect solution, that may be applied/modified
    for electric baseboards. The hot water pipes inside the baseboard
    have fins, and must be suspended in the air to work. This is done
    by brackets every foot or so from the back of the baseboard. This
    bracket also supports the baseboard front panel. I took off the
    front panel, and lifted up the pipe slightly, and then shoved a
    piece of cardboard between the pipe and the bracket. When the
    heat was turned on, the pipes would expand, and slide along the
    brackets making noise. With the modification, the pipe would slide
    along the cardboard instead, thus much less noise. I don't know
    if the configuration is similar for electric baseboard... but perhaps
    the same idea could be applied.
    

>< Note 71.11 by NACHO::LUNGER "Dave Lunger, 381-2890, ZKO2-1/M11" >
>                     -< Reduced noise from FHW baseboards >-
>
>       I took off the front panel, and lifted up the pipe slightly, and 
>       then shoved a piece of cardboard between the pipe and the 
>       bracket. 
                
                
                I sure wouldn't do this with a electric baseboard!! 
        Sounds like a beautiful fire hazard to me!!!! (In fact, I 
        question it's viability with FHW over the long term.)
                
                /s/     Bob

    re .-1
    
    I can't imagine putting cardboard between fhw pipes and brackets
    is a fire hazard... the temperatures don't get near the flash point.
    If it was, then dust that accumulated over the years over the pipes
    would be a problem too. Lots of people put towels over their
    steam radiators to dry... and steam is hotter than hot water.
    
    Perhaps electric parts in baseboards get hotter than fhw pipes,
    and if so, mica or some other material could be used. The main point
    being putting something between the metal expanding, and the metal
    staying stationary.

Lately whenever my heat comes up (FHW) the baseboards seem to gurgle. Is this
because of air in the pipe...How does it get there and what can be done about 
it...? Thanks.

							Robert

    Refer to note 71 and replies for a discussion of this very problem.
    
    Dan

    Most fhw systems are regulated to 10-12lbs of water pressure with
    an expansion tank.. Yes more then likely there is air in your lines..
    The reason air got into your lines is probably the pressure in you
    system has dropped to low or there is not enought water in it.
    Find the cause of the air in your system and get back to me.
    					Bill
    

With the cold weather setting in, I thought I could ask you folks for some
help, tips and information. 

My house is heated by gas fired hot water.  The boiler system seems to be a
little mysterious to me.

1) The hot water seems to be "pulled" rather than "pushed" throught the 
   system.  Is this normal?  I would think you would want to "push" the
   hot water, forcing the cold water back into the boiler than the other
   way around.

2) There is this small blue tank.  I believe it is called a "retainer" tank.
   What is its purpose?  Is it to retain pressure in the system?

3) There is this little valve above the "retainer(?)" tank.  What is its
   purpose?  Is it to release trapped air in the system? (it wistles every
   so often).  Also, I seem to be getting a lot of water coming out of the
   little pin hole.

4) There is a line from my water source (pump/storage tank) to the system.
   When I had started the system up, I opened this valve thinking that
   the system (being down all summer) may need new water.  The value
   above the retainer tank (3 above) started to leak.  I then shut this
   water source line down.  What's up?

5) I have 2 zones (upstairs and downstairs), but the upstairs doesn't seem
   to be getting warm (the pipes that is).  Could this be more trapped air?
   I thought this type of system bled itself.

6)  Deb read an article saying I should wrap the exposed pipes in the 
   basement with insulation to help out.  Is this really necessary?  Will
   it do any good?

For anyone (and everyone) who answers me with some help, thanks from a 
"not-so-handy-dan".

					Pete

    

Do you have radiators or baseboards?

Tonight, I'll find an "Old House Journal" article for you.  It's 
probably two or three years old, but it certainly explains ALL
about adjusting a forced hot water radiator system. 

Sally

    Since the system is a closed loop, "pulled" or "pushed" is meaningless.
    I know what you mean - the circulating pumps are where the lines
    go into the boiler, rather than where they come out - but as far
    as the water is concerned it's all the same thing.  If it helps
    any, think of the pumps pushing the water through the boiler.
    
    Steve

    
    
      Hi Pete, when I bought my house a couple of years back, the first
    thing I did was have the Burner technician come out to the house
    to explain the whole setup. I didn't even have to pay for the call.
    The guy explained everything and it was well worth it, even if I
    had to pay. I personally think it's a good idea to know exactly
    what going on so say come winter time at 3:00 am your not kicking
    yourself trying to find the reset switch after a power fail.
    
    
                                                      Good luck
    

      The circulator pump is normally placed on the return line so that
    it is moving cooler water, therefore the pump should last longer
    than if it were moving really hot water.
      This pump is not like a regular water pump, it just pushes the water
    along instead of really putting out a lot of pressure.  If there
    is much air trapped in the system, the pump cannot move the water.
    Excess air is removed by an "air scoop" which is located on top
    of the expansion tank. (The air scoop is the Iron piece on top of
    the blue tank) There is an automatic air bleed (the brass cylinder
    on top of the air scoop) to release this trapped air.
      The blue tank is the expansion tank (water expands when it is
    heated) which has a rubber bladder in it with water on one side
    and air at about 12 psi on the other side.  Do not bleed the fitting
    in the bottom of this tank, or you will release the air pressure.
      The system usually has aprox 12 lbs pressure in it, and should
    be fed by an automatic filler.  There is also a safety valve which
    releases water if the pressure in the system rises above 30 lbs.
    By opening the fill valve, you let in extra water, and when it got
    up to 30 lbs the pressure release did it's job.  You should drain
    some of the water out to get the pressure back down where it belongs.
    If you let out too much water the automatic fill should let more
    in.  There should be a pressure gauge on the front of the boiler
    to tell you how much pressure is in the system.
      Now, on your second zone, you should have either a valve for each
    zone and one circulator pump, or two pumps.  If you have two pumps
    check to see if the pump is running when you turn the thermostat
    up.  If it is not, then you have a problem with the controls.  If
    it is running, then you probably have water trapped in the pipe
    somewhere.  If you have one pump and two electrically controlled
    valves, check to see if the valve is opening.  The problems will be the
    same as above, either bad controls or trapped air, or possibly a bad
    control valve.  If the problem looks like trapped air, look along the
    pipes at the highest point in the system (on the second floor?) for an
    air bleed.  This will either be an automatic air bleed (like on
    top of the air scoop) or a manual one which you will have to open
    partially to let the air escape.  In either case open the air bleed
    (or press down on the center stem of the automatic one) until water
    comes out.
      Well this is getting kind of long, let me know if you need any
    more info....
    
    jim d.

      On re-reading the base note, I see that it wasn't the pressure
    release that was leaking after adding water, but the air bleed.
    Normally you should get no or very little water coming from the
    air bleed.  If you are getting enough water leakage that it becomes
    really noticable, it should be replaced.  They are not very
    expensive, and not hard to replace.  If you want instructions, just
    ask.
      Also it sounds like you may not have an automatic water feed,
    if so you may want to add one.
      (All of this is for a hot water system, not steam)

    jim d. 

    
    problem: Lack of heat from a forced hot-water oil system.
    
    The furnace is firing and producing hot water. (Tested
    by draining a sample.) The pump is spinning. But very
    little heat is given off in the house. I can touch the
    pipes anyway on the line, except right next to the furnace.
    It takes the house hours to heat up a few degrees. I did
    recently flush the system which I usually do every year
    but skipped last year.

    Thanks,
            mike

I'm having a similar problem here.

In my two zone forced hot water heating system, I'm getting hardly any
hot water in one pipe, thermostat and zone are working, pumping is spinning
when eather one of the two zone is on.

Does it need to be flushed, or any other sugestion?

/C.c.

    
    Air in the pipes is a likely culprit. Try bleeding the air from
    the heating loops. This is either done via small bleeder valves
    at the high points of each look (in the heat base, for example)
    or via drain valves near the furnace.
    
    Even a small pocket of air in the loop is sufficient to block flow
    of the hot water, which is pumped at very low pressure.
    
    The self-bleeding gizmos on most systems simply don't do the trick.

     .2 is the most likely cause as it happened to me also, and it was
    air trapped in the system. However there is something else you may
    want to check also. There may be an adjustable flow regulator on
    the pipe near the furnace. If it is incorrectly adjusted or clogged
    it could also cause the problem you are having. Also flushing the
    system is not usually recommended. As the new water you introduce
    to the system when refilling it will also contain dissolved Oxygen.
    This fresh supply of Oxygen will naturally combine with the iron
    in your furnace (rust) until it is used up again. This, if repeated
    too often, is blamed for excessive rust and scale in the system.
    
    				Kenny
    

    I can't find any "small bleeder valve" at the high points of the
    loop. The only valve I found was the one right above the zone valve,
    where you can hook up a hose to drain all the water.
    If I try to open that valva, I'm afraid that I'll drain the whole
    thing, and if not, more air could get in. 
    
    More advice please!

    Like mentioned in an early reply, look for a bleeder at the highest
    elbow on your system. This is usually located at the last baseboard
    unit in each zone. You'll have to pop off one of the end caps on
    the baseboard at the end that finally returns to your boiler. If
    you still can't locate a bleeder, I'd suggest you attach a garden
    hose to that drain valve next to each zone valve. Put the end into
    a bucket already filled with water. Then partly open the zone drain
    valve (not all the way only slightly open) and allow makeup water
    to enter the system. While this is being performed look into the
    water filled bucket and if you observe any bubbles girgling out
    then thats and indication that you had air in that zone line. When
    all the bubbles have stopped, your line should be air free. This
    Let the line drain long enough to be sure all the air is ejected.
    I'm talking maybe 5 to 10 minutes. Also remember to have your
    observation bucket located outside or in an area where the overflowing
    water does not cause a problem. Hope this helps !!
    

    I also have a OIL-FIRED force hot-water baseboard heat question.
    
    It seems that everything works just fine with this brand-new house
    with one exception: I can't get the heat DOWN low enough!
    
    I did a little investigation and it seems that the baseboards stay
    warm (actually rather hot) even after the circulating pump goes
    off. I guess the hot water in the pipes rises and naturally brings
    heat with it.
    
    It there a way to prevent the hot water in the boiler from circulating
    all by itself without the pump being on? Should the pump prevent
    this flow?
    
    Any ideas?
    Mark
    

    There may be a point in the zone where the line runs over a door
    or into the attic. A bleeder should also be located there.
    
    If you drain down the system....make sure that the make up valve
    is OPEN.
    
    Howard

     No, the water will not circulate when the pump isn't running.  
You probably want to adjust the ANTICIPATOR setting in your thermostat 
to cause the burner to shut off earlier.  Assuming you have one of the 
round Honeywell jobs, you want to pop the cover off and look for a
wire-wound resistor with a slider on it.  Stamped on it somewhere will 
be the word "longer" (or shorter), with an arrow.  By sliding the 
slider in the 'longer' or 'shorter' direction, you cause the burner to 
run longer or shorter.  You want to run the burner for less time, to 
compensate for the thermal mass in the pipes.

    
    The anticipator setting should be set to match the current draw
    of your system. If your thermostats drive zone valves (as mine do),
    look for the amperage rating stamped on the zone valve; if they
    drive the circulator or the burner itsdelf, look there.
    

    Not to dispute, but I have checked the temperature of the actual
    pipes/baseboard units after the thermostat was turned to the OFF
    position for an extended period of time and it STILL seemed
    very warm. Actually the baseboards physically closer to the
    boiler unit were warmer than those at the far end of the house.
    (Hence, I am assuming that there is no INTENTIONAL PUMPED
    circulation going on).
    
    Is the pump itself supposed to stop the flow? Could the pump be
    bad?
    
    Mark
    

I have  a  30  gallon  electric  hot  water heater. I have two problems with
electric  hot  water.  One  is the cost, the other issue is that fact the 30
gallons  is  a  fairly  small  tank for electric. I know it's small, because
after  three  serial showers, there is only luke warm water (my shower has a
WaterPic water saver, and a hot water limiter valve, so I think I'm using as
little  water  as possible). By cranking the termastate way up (to 160 F) it
does provide enough hot water, however that's *really* expensive.

Here's a  novel  idea. My shower drain pipe is made of copper and runs about
5'  from  the  tub elbow to a cast iron down pipe. I cut and soldered a 1/2"
copper  water  pipe  along  the  bottom  of  a  4' lenght of the drain pipe.
Soldering  the drain and supply pipe the whole lenght ensures a good thermal
path.  I  then  ran  the cold water supply for the water heater through this
pipe. This acts as a heat exchanger from the warm water running in the drain
to  the cold water running into the water heater. I now run the water heater
at  110  F  and  have  ample  hot water for three serial showers. This saves
energy  by  running  the  heater  at  a  lower temperature, AND by recycling
otherwise lost heat.

I haven't  gotten  the  electric  bill  yet, but I expect to see a noticable
reduction.  I  don't  see why this idea wouldn't work with any type of water
heater.  I  should  also  add  that  I belive I use most of my hot water for
showers.

Any thoughts?
Jim...

    
    	The problem that you have is that you flow valve is not working.
    The flow valve will stop the flow of water when the circulator is
    not working.  If the flow is opened up or is stuck open the hot
    water will flow by convection and will never shut off.  What you
    should check is there will be a valve with an arrow on it close
    to the output of your furnace.  The flow valve will also have a
    open and shut screw adjustment on it so it can be opened and closed
    for bleeding your system, check to see if it closed, if it is closed
    then it has to be stuck open (remove from system and fix or replace).
    
    				good luck
    				george
    

	My parents house occasionally had this problem. My father (or I)
    would  then  wander from room to room with a screwdriver and a small
    bowl.  In each room, at one end of the baseboard, was a small valve.
    This  was  opened with the screwdriver while holding the bowl on the
    floor  under  the  valve. The valve would be kept open until it spit
    water instead of air. It would then be closed, and the whole process
    would be repeated in the next room.


			Kathy

    
    	One additional comment.   If you find that after you bleed the
    system that and you really did not notice any real amount of air
    and the system still does not work, you might have to force bleed
    the system.  This is used to force all the air back down to the
    furnace bleed valve.  This is done by opening up your one way valve
    to limit it restriction and start bleeding your system with a hose
    attached to the bleed shutoff.  Once you start bleeding your system
    increase you water flow by opening up your automatic feed valve,
    this will increase your water flow and force all the air in your
    lines out (note once you have bleed the system set the automatic
    feed valve back to normal/automatic before you shut off your bleed
    shutoff or the increased pressure will blow your pressure relief
    valve.  Also there is an flow restrictor/shutoff in the bleed value
    assembly ensure that it is shutoff when bleeding and remember to
    open it up when you are finished or you still will not get any heat.
    
    	this is kind of hard to explain but if you have any questions
    send me mail or call 261-2087
    
    			george
    

    
    Judging from the number of heating system questions, I guess it
    was COLD last night!
    

Sounds like a great idea.  The reason it probably isn't used much is that it is 
relatively rare for the shower drain to be anywhere near the supply for the hot 
water.  Plus, almost all drains are made of PVC nowadays.  But if your setup 
allows it, it sounds like a wonderful idea.

Paul

    Neat, indeed!  And to get around the problem mentioned in .-1, how
    about simply exchanging heat with the shower's cold water intake,
    which is guaranteed to be nearby?  This would work as long as the
    hot water temperature maintained was somewhat higher than what you
    wanted in the shower:  you'd always be mixing in some cold, and
    with the exchange you'd wind up using more "cold" and less "hot".
    (Yes, it would likely take a few extra seconds for the temperature
    to stabilize...)
    
    The amount of heat transferred should be about the same, but the
    efficiency might be a tad better, since you're heating AT the point
    of use rather than for storage.  In any event - great idea!
    
    		- Bill
    

    
    Guess I am in trouble, I don't have bleeders on elbows in the
    baseboards. I have one bleeder at the end of the line in the basement,
    hardly the high point of the system. 
    
    re: .5 Is the drain valve on the furnance or the pipe? Should the
    system be running while you do the hose in the bucket trick? 
    
    Thanks,
            mike

    Well, I almost turned the house upside down, but, still no "bleeder"
    found, I might just have to do as sugested in .5, from the drain valve.
    By the way, the system is about 10 years old, and the offending
    loop has only one baseboard unit. (lower level in a split)

    The valve should be on the zone pipes, usually just above the
    circulator pumps or electric zone valves. It doesn't really matter
    if your boiler is firing or not because you'll just be introducing
    makeup water at a slow rate, but I'd flip the emergency switch off
    away. The system will only be off for a few minutes during the bleeding
    process anyway, then you can turn it right back on.
    

     EXCELLENT IDEA!  Bravo to those like you who think up simple yet
    effective ideas like that.
    

Good thinking!

What you've discovered is something from the past called a 'tempering 
tank.' It was in the cold water line from the street and served to 'suck 
up' some heat from the surrounding air, slightly warming up the water
before it went into your boiler coil in the coal-fired furnace.

I've been looking at using the same principle, but more heat is supplied 
by the wood stove in the cellar. When it's running, the cold water 
sometimes comes out hotter than the hot water! For those of you who want 
to look into such a setup, you have to get what plumbers call a 'range 
boiler' which is about 30 gallons or so with several 1" NPT taps at 
various heights. It's not cheap ~$150, but you may save on electric.

Another thing to consider is putting a water heater timer in the line to 
limit the on times for the elements. I put one on a little over two years 
ago (on a 40 gallon heater) and my E-bills dropped from $50 to about 
$25. We have it set to heat water for about 8 hours per day. If you're 
interested in this too, it's an Intermatic 'Little Grey Box' available 
at your local electrical supply house for about $25...

    If you are interested in a little grey box, I have seen one advertised
    in the SEAPEN::CLASSIFIED_ADS notes file recently...
    
    Cheers,
    jeff
    

	On my 30 year old system, "bleeding" the expansion tank helps.

  The valve TO the tank is closed.  A hose is attached to the drain valve.
  Excess water is drained off.  Drain valve is tightly closed. Valve TO
  Expansion tank is opened SLOWLY.

						-=Dennis

    Ditto on the timer.  Mine runs 4 hours a day. Just time it for before
    showers and then for dinner dishes. Plenty of hot water for 2 people.
    
    Just remember to override the timer if you have overnight guests.
    It's very rude for you to have hot shower and leave only cold for
    guests.
    
    Since timer cost 19.99 (240 volt model) and monthly saving was >20
    the timer paid for itself before the first month was up.
    
    Pasco

    RE .0
    
    This is what is also known as a "grey water recovery system". It
    was mentioned in a previous issue of what else, but PRACTICAL
    HOMEOWNER,formerly NEW SHELTER. Your idea is simpler and less
    complicated though. Phase 2 is to hook up drains from clothes
    and dish washers and have it pass through a heat exchanger on
    into the hot water heater before leaving the house. This is a
    much more involved process though,and may not at all be practi-
    cal.
    
    	Steve
    

    RE: .6
    
    Is there similar timer available for the Gas Hot Water?
    
    Thanks,
    - Vikas

>    Is there similar timer available for the Gas Hot Water?
    
Unfortunately, no.  The vast majority of gas water heaters have pilot lights 
and have no electrical hookup at all, and thus have no reasonable way of 
running a timer.  I suppose they could potentially be built with the timer in 
them, (requiring a plug or batteries), although I know of none built with one,
but it's really not feasible to add one after the fact.

Sorry.

Paul

Ref 463.8 and 463.9

Beg to differ with .9 but there is a timer available for
gas waterheaters. I have one installed. I got it at True Value HW for
appr $25. It clamps to the regular thermostat and a tiny electric motor
turns it (the thermostat) up or down under control of one of those 
(cheap) timers with pushbuttons as programs. You need a source of 
110 V to run the timer. I run a line with an outlet close to the heater.
I have the timer set for two 2 hour periods of hot (HOT) water per day, the 
rest of the day the watertemp is down to about 100 F.
I installed the timer last winter. Being on a town supply I am able (and I do)
to monitor my energy consumption down to 1/10 of a therm.
The payback period was less than 3 month.

One drawback: The timer is a simple 24 h device and does not recognize
Saturdays, Sundays or Holidays. I have to override it manually and out of 
lazyness I intend to put it and the heating system and the lights and...
under computer control in the not to distant future.
 
Rudolf

    I am in process of adding Oil-fired, force hot-water baseboard heat
    to 5 new rooms have built on my house. I currently have a one-zone
    system. Can any tell me the following:
    
    	1. Where can I get information (a book, etc) on adding the
    		new zone? (Is it easy enough that someone
    		could describe it to me in a minute or two?)
    
    	2. Where in the Littleton/Shirley/Leominster area can I find
    		the actual baseboard elements. They should be sold
    		in a discount place if possible. Any suggestions?
    
    Mark
    
    By the way, this project has been VERY exciting. I took a wide open
    area 24x48 which had nothing but a few columns in it, and turned
    it into a nice, finished 5 rooms. 2 BR. 1 Wash room, workshop, utility
    room. The rooms are all connected with a central hallway. The columns
    were COMPLETELY hidden within the walls. The rooms each have a NICE
    sized closet.
    
    	Final count:	180 studs
    			62 sheets of 4x8 sheetrock
    			600' of 12-2 wiring
    			120' 3/4" copper pipe
    			350' RG CATV wire
    			350' 4-wire telephone
    			over two dozen duplex outlets
    			a dozen switches
    
    It just goes to show that a little time (I've been doing it for
    about 4 months now, off and on) can go a long way!
    
    Mark
    

    Just finished having my steam heat switched to FHW.  Each plumber
    we talked to recommended against valves and recommended circulators
    instead.  (Valves are apparently a source of problems.)
    
    We found an application where rather than baseboards, a blower unit
    with a high and low speed was more suitable.  The unit gives off
    a little heat when off, but when set to low it is about equivalent
    to a baseboard (very quiet as well).  On high, it really pumps out
    the heat (nice for a bathroom).
    
    Send me mail if you are interested in the particulars.
    
    Alex

    
    Can anybody explain to me what an expansion tank on in a water system
    at home is used for?
    
    We did lots of plumbing last night.  I wanted to move the expansion
    tank out of the way.  We didn't get to it, but still want to.  I
    would really like to know what purpose it fulfills.
    
    Oh yeah, mine is on the cold water line, and I noticed when I tried
    to see how much pressure was in it (air pressure), water came out.
    What's the scoop here.
    
    						.dave.

    If you have hotwater heat its used for exactly that as an expansion
    tank. When water heats up it expands. If your hotwater heating system
    had no expansion tank the pipes would burst. You should bleed the
    water out of this tank every once in a while. There should be a
    shut_off_valve on the line going to the tank. Shut this valve off,
    turn on the valve in the tank, drain the water out, shut the tank
    valve off once the tank is empty and open the valve leading to the
    tank. On the first house I lived in we did it twice a year. 
                             
    dave
    

    Hi Dave,
    
    I think I may know just enough to get myself in trouble here, but
    here goes.
    
    The expansion tank serves much the same purpose that a capacitor
    does in an electronic circuit. That is, it tends to smooth out
    the otherwise fluctuating line pressure. It accomplishes this 
    through the use of an in-line pressure switch [usually accompanied
    with some type of dial indicator] which will "cut-in" or turn the
    pump on, when the pressure reaches a lower limit of say, 20 lbs. 
    pressure and "cut-out", or turn the pump off, at perhaps 40 lbs.. 
    These limits are somewhat adjustable.
    
    The innards of the tank consist of a bladder, which is originally
    "charged" from the factory with some predetermined amount of air,
    to act as the compressable component of the tank, giving you your
    pressure range [remember water can't be compressed] and a space
    usually under the bladder to accept a quantity of water as a buffer. 

    Water leaking from a air-fill valve may indicate either a corroded
    valve or perhap a small leak in your bladder [I mean the tank's
    bladder ;)].
    
    Hope this helps,
    Charlie

    	.2 is correct. I just had a problem with my pump and had to
    	replace the expansion tank because water was bypassing the
    	bladder. This caused the pump to run until the tank was filled
    	and presurized with water, enough to trip the cut out swtich.
    
    	However I have replaced the expansion tank and am in the
    	process of adjusting the cut in /out limits (I screwed around
    	with them tring to diagnose the problem). And am having a
    	difficult time. If possible, try not to disturb this orignal
    	settings, this may save you some additional problems after
    	everything is put back together...
    
    		Good luck with it....
    
    			Steve
    

    Woops sorry didn't read the base note correctly. They'er right.
    
    dave
    

    I assume you've got a well.  The expansion or pressure tank is
    basically a small water storage tank with a rubber membrane across
    the middle of it.  The top part above the membrane is pressurized
    to some preset value.  When your pump comes on it pumps water into 
    the bottom of the tank, compressing the air above the membrane, until 
    the pressure reaches a preset level on the pump's pressure cutoff 
    switch (40-50 pounds or so?).  You can then draw water out of the faucet
    (a few gallons) and the air pressure and water in the tank will
    keep the pump from coming on for a while.  After you've drawn out
    the water in the tank and the pressure drops down to the low-pressure
    turn-on value of the pump's pressure switch, the whole thing repeats.
    The whole business keeps the pump from cycling off and on with great
    frequency whenever you open a faucet.  If things are working properly
    you should never need to mess with the pressure tank.  If they aren't
    your pump will short-cycle, the tank may need repressurizing with
    air, etc.

    Steve

     All of the well storage tanks that I have seen recommend setting
    the air bladder pressure at the turn-on pressure of the pump. IE
    if your pump runs 20 psi turn-on 40 psi turn-off, the pressure in
    the tank should be set at 20 psi. To do this, shut off the pump
    and run the water until there is no pressure in the tank. Then add
    (or subtract) air until you are at the proper pressure. (there should
    be what looks like a tire fitting somewhere near the top of the
    tank) I checked my tank just after I moved into the house and it
    was way off. After I set it to the proper amount it made a big
    difference in how often the pump would run, and how rapidly the
    pressure would drop when I started using water. The pump was needed
    much less often and the pressure was much more constant.
    
    					Kenny

    The tank may be there to eliminate the knock you'd get when you
    turn water off if it wasn't there.  I have several stubs (12-18"
    of pipe going nowhere) that do that, but I think an expansion tank
    would do the same, just more expensive.
    
    Pete

    
    re .8
    
    The stubs-that-go-nowhere do the same thing, except that the water
    lines have to be drained periodically to replenish the air in the
    stubs, which is absorbed by the water. Those little no-knock tanks
    have bladders in them to keep the water from eating the air. ALso,
    any water-hammer-prevention methods have to be at or close to the
    termination of water flow in order to do their jobs most effectively.
    
    re .0
    
    If you have a pressure-dropping valve, it probably does not allow
    backflow from the house to the town, so that there must be some
    mechanism to prevent the expansion created by your hot water tank
    from blowing out the rest of the house plumbing (houses that are
    not pressure-isolated from the town supply have a built in expansion
    tank -  the town supply).
    
    If your expansion tank is leaking water when you try to check the
    pressure, perhaps it has suffered a ruptured bladder?

    
    It is not working as an anti-knock relief, since the dishwasher
    and washing machine both beat on the system pretty bad.  In the
    midst of Thursdays plumbing we installed a water hammer lead that
    is two feet long (going up) and leading to nowhere; the water hammer
    is now gone.  I'll have to check this tank out more thoroughly.
    Thanks..
    
    						.dave.

    Looks like problem is resolved for everyone, it also worked for
    me, but it happened again, it's possible that I did not let all
    the air out, but my question is: how did the air get into the pipe
    in the first place? is there any way to prevent it from happening
    again? did it get in from the expansion tank?

    Ok, I am now ready to tap into my EXISTING Oil-Fired furnace
    (baseboard heat) and connect another zone for my newly finished
    first floor.
    
    I have the 3/4" copper loop and elements installed. Do I add some type of
    valve/thermostat/pump for the new zone? And quick hints would be
    helpful. I don't even know what the proper setup for a two-zone
    hot-water system should look like.
    
    Any diagrams or comments on-line would help
    
    
    Mark

    I recently had to replace a circulator for my second zone, so I
    learned something about the setup.  You have a good sized (maybe
    1.5" dia) coming out of the top of your boiler.  This is where the
    water exits the boiler.  You'll have to tap into this to gt the
    feed OUT for your 2nd zone.  It's a good idea to install one of
    those big valve shutoffs (has a big handle for turning valve on/off)
    for each zone after the boiler exit pipe splits off.  This will
    allow some work to be done later on one zone without shutting down
    and draining the entire system.
    
    The return is where the circulator goes, which essentially pulls
    water out of the heating zone, pumps it into the boiler, resulting
    in it being forced out of the exit pipe and back into the heating
    zone. The inlet for the boiler in my case is on the side.
    
    The inlet for each pump comes from each zone (obviously) and the
    outlet for each pump goes to a common pipe which goes to the inlet
    of the boiler.
    
    You will need to bleed air out of the system from time to time,
    as well as every time you drain and recharge the system.  So you
    should install bleeder valves in certain locations on the system.
    
    Some setups have bleeders in each room, some have only one bleeder
    per zone.  Perhaps another noter can elaborate on this.
    
    Best deal on circulators I found (by far) was Fitchburg Plumbing,
    who sell the Taco F-007 (# may not be exactly correct, but the 007
    stuck in my mind) for $57.80.   Every other place I checked wanted
    $93.10, quite a difference in price.
                  
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Steve
    

    Just duplicate the existing zone.
    
       You need:     * a flow check  (this is a "valve" but at the plumbing
                       supply house you ask for a "flow check" even
                       though the guy behind the counter knows you're
                       a weekend plumber

                     * a circulator (as in .1)
    
                     * a switching relay (Honeywell, probably an R845A)
                       this is switched by thermostat and switches the
                       line current to operate the circulator.
    
                     * thermostat
    
    and you'll have to extend certain pipes described in .1 to make
    way for feed and return. The high limit control for the boiler
    is contained in the (I'm assuming Honeywell) Aquastat Relay
    which also controls the single zone (you have). I've mapped
    out the entire electrical circuit for a 3 zone system (I have)
    so if you need this or data sheets on the Honeywell switching
    relays, Aquastats, or thermostats......send me mail. 

    Mark

    Very much help. It sounds like the key is to use T connections
    to get into and out of the boiler, shutoff valves on EACH
    zone, air bleeders (at least 1 place per line), and a circulation
    pump FOR EACH LINE. I assume that the control module can be setup
    for the multiple zones and thermostats, and that it is the pump
    that acts as the on/off 'valve' for each line.
    
    Anybody have anything else that I should know?
    
    Hi-ho, it's off to the plumbing store I go...
    
    
    	

    
    

    
    Just one general thing:  Design the system for, among other things,
    
                        ease of repair and maintenance
    
    you'll be glad you did when a leak develops in a few years.
    
    Steve
    

    Yes, put in lots of shutoff valves!  And a draincock for that loop,
    so you can isolate and drain it, if need be.

    Placing shutoff valves, one directly above and one directly below
    the circulator, makes replacing the circulator much easier and less
    messy.

    You might want to put in a pipe to bridge between the two circulators,
    with a shutoff in the middle.  If you ever lose a circulator in
    the middle of a cold winter weekend, you can open the valve and
    run the whole system off one pump.
    
    My heating contractor (who has replaced many defective circulator
    pumps on cold winter weekends at very high prices) recommended this
    trick.

    Another alternative to a circulator for EACH zone is to use
    a ZONE VALVE for each zone and the existing circulator to pump
    the entire system. Zone valves are relatively cheap to buy, very
    easy to install and it does'nt harm a circulator pump to pump water
    against a closed zone valve.  Also you won't need to use a flow
    check.  They also have a manual override in case of trouble.
    
    Many Burner men frown on zone valves as being trouble prone and
    unreliable. I have had just the oposite exerience...matter of
    preference I suppose.  I personally would rather have one motor
    pumping away rather than a bunch of them, since motors and bearings
    are'nt trouble free either!
    
    
    
    

    I have the suspicion that it's a matter of preference whether I
    zone with VALVES or CIRCULATORS. My existing Honeywell control
    unit will support either method. I think using pumps requires a
    'SWITCHING RELAY' in addition to what it already has. (I assume
    this little beauty is inexpensive...I hope)
    
    Sounds like if I use ZONE VALVES, I can use the same pump, expansion
    tank, and flow-check. With the pump method, I must duplicate all
    of that. the means $$$.
    
    Overall, sounds like the ZONE VALVE method is considerably less
    expensive and maybe even more reliable.
    
    I will persue that unless anyone has a horror story that I should
    know before this weekend (or mid-week next).
    
    Thanks all.
    
    M
    

    In the house I bought in 12/79, I have one boiler, one expansion
    tank, one circulator pump and FIVE zone valves. Never had a problem.
    It's got to be a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE to put in multiple pumps. And
    the pumps are more likely to suffer from mechanical failures. They
    also require periodic lubrication. The zone valves have a manual
    over-ride to use (in case they fail), something which requires extra
    parts if you go with multiple pumps. If my experience is typical,
    go with the multiple valves.

    
      An interesting debate....circulator pumps vs. zone valves
    
    My $0.02:
    
    If you have only one pump for x zones, and that ONE pump fails,
    say hello to the relatives for a night or two. 
    
    The pump I recently replaced had to be >20 years old, maybe 30,
    so I'm not sure that they're necessarily reliably inferior to
    zone valves.  Especially the newer ones, which have much fewer
    moving parts and consume about 1/3 the power.  (no, it's not a
    CMOS circulator)
    
    If I had 5 zones, I don't think I'd install 5 circulators.  Maybe
    2 pumps, one with 3 zone valves and one with two.
    The more plumbing a pump has to push water
    through, the harder it has to work all the time, which may result
    in a shorter life for the pump.
        
    Steve
    

    All these comments are very interesting. I have chosen to go with
    then ZONE VALVES for my application. The cost for EACH was $44.00
    at Somerville Lumber. I needed two. I did look at the cost of doing
    it with the CIRCULATOR/SWITCHING RELAY setup: PUMP=$50.00, RELAY=$47.00
    PLUS it would require a flo-check and air tank (Both a fair cost
    item). BASED UPON WHAT I SAW, THE ZONE VALVE ROUTE IS MUCH LESS
    EXPENSIVE. I HAVE ALSO HEARD NOTHING BUT GOOD COMMENTS ABOUT THE
    RELIABILITY OF THE ZONE VALVES AND PUMP METHOD.
    
    AN INTERESTING NOTE: WHile I was in SOMERVILLE Lumber, I saw a
    nice display of an ACTUAL two-zone configuration in the plumbing
    dept. (WESTBORO STORE). They actually have the valves, pump, the elements
    the boiler, the copper pipes and wiring all put together in a small
    display. I couldn't help but do it EXACTLY right after seeing the
    model.
    
    Mark

I can't let this discussion simply go by;  we just installed a FHW 
system and decided on circulators rather than zone valves.  If cost is 
the only question, then valves are certainly cheaper.  

If cost is not the major consideration for you, then the question 
becomes one of both reliability and failure modes.  

A valve fails by ceasing to work.  Simple as that.  No warning.  If you
are there, you can turn on the manual override (if it has one) until you
can get a new one. 

A pump generally fails in the seals, bearings, or brushes.  In most 
cases such failures are intermittent at first, giving you warning (if 
you are technically inclined and notice such things).  They tend to be 
very trouble free (even in homes with valves, you hear of valves going 
out, but not much about trouble with the circulator itself).

As pointed out in earlier notes, even with a valve system, you *do* have
a pump.  You simply have *no* backup.  With more than one pump, you can
always get *some* heat, and you may even have a bridge (as suggested) to
bypass a pump that fails. 

The pump-valve method is most common today due to cost, especially in
new developments.   And the valves are much more reliable than they used
to be.  But contractors I have talked to use circulators in each zone in
their own homes.  Of course, they get the circulators at cost, so price
is not as important. 

    Zone valves frequently fail prematurely due to excessive cycling
    on and off. This is usually a result of the thermostat heat anticipator
    being set wrong. Taco zone valves draw 0.9 amps and the thermostat
    should be set accordingly. As I understand it, a FHW system should
    cycle no more than 3 times per hour in moderately cold weather.
    
    - Rich
    

Re: .14

If i remember correctly, Robertshaw said 4 to 6 times an hour.

    
    
    we're thinking of having a FHW system installed in our home. Has
    anyone ever had this done??, could anybody offer some advise on
    this. things I would like to know are; type of systems, price and
    associated cost.
    
    
    if this topic has been discussed elswhere in the file, please point
    me to those notes..
    
    
    
    
    joe
    
    

 BOILERS:  Weil McLain / American Burnam / H.B. Smith are the tops as far as
           efficiency. You can't go wrong w/ any of these.

 BASEBOARD: Most contractors like "Slant Fin". There are three grades:
    
                      Slant Fin 15     ~450 BTU's/ft.
                        "    "  30     ~600 BTU's/ft
                        "    "  60 ?   ~750 btu's/ft
   
     Each grade is rated as generating so many BTU's per foot. S.F.
    15 being the cheapest. I know my BTU numbers aren't accurate but
    you get the idea.  My contractor and I agreed to select the
    S.F. 30. The baseboard sheet metal is a slightly thicker gage
    (so your kids can stand on it to look out the window without bending
    it) and it was more economical. This was arrived at after going
    through the heat loss calculations to come up with the number of
    BTU's required, then looking at the # of feet of baseboard required
    etc. Most people don't go through all the specifics with the contractor
    but engineers have to know everything. Besides the calculations
    were simple. Most librarys have books on the topic.

    PRICE: My system included 3 ZONES, 1st, 2nd floor and basement.
           I also switched from elec. water heater to an oil fired
           unit (~1000. for water heater). My cost of system included
           some other do-dads so it wouldn't be a good indicater. However
           my neighbor recently had a single zone installation with
           a tankless water heater(domestic hot water) which costs
           $3500. complete flick the switch. 

    After heating with wood and having the ELECTRIC! as back-up...I
    sure can appreciate the FHW system. Nice even heat, no labor outside
    of turning up the thermostat occationally. Sure the initial cost
    is substantial but after that its just oil & maintenance. I really
    really appreciate it when I see my neighbors shufflin through the
    snow to get to all that coal or wood that is stacked up in their
    driveways.......    

    Mark

    I am presently involved with building my own place and ahve installed
    a FHW system with 4 zones, and a Boiler-Mate hot water heating system.
    I did the installation myself so was able to spend alittle more
    on the equipment. My furnace is a H.B. Smith (cast iron/wet based)
    which works fine and I also installed setback therm. on each zone.
    Total material costs ran about $3500 with no charge for installation.
    I would expect that your costs for installation would run another
    $1.0 to 1.5K. My system heats a 2000+ sq. ft. house, with two floors,
    I'm sure factors like, how many zones, one or two floors, etc.,
    will have an influence on the costs but you should beable to get
    a basic system, installed for anywhere from $3.5K to ?????.
    

A strong recommendation for a two pipe system.                   
                             ==========
If you can afford it (and the incremental cost should be not much) put in
a real two pipe system.
This means that each room and/or radiator(baseboard) has its own supply
and return pipe. This is common in Europe but very seldom done in the US
where you connect each room within a zone in series. 

The dissadvantages of FHW in series I see as follows:

o the rooms at the end of a zone (loop) have to have more 
  radiator area/baseboard length in order to compensate for the
  loss in temperature of your heating fluid in the first rooms
  of the loop.

o even with multiple (but still only a few) zones all the rooms on a 
  given zone will be heated. Even if the planning for the zones was 
  done perfectly, your lifestyle and therefore usage of rooms could 
  change and the zones would then not be perfect anymore.

o multiple zones are better than none but if you install a new system
  why not go all out and have each room individually controlled.


The benefits of controlling each room are:

o you can have the comfort level you want in those areas you use
  and save a lot of fuel by not heating (as much) those areas of
  the house you do not use as frequently.

o the benefits are probably nonexistant if

  - your house has a completly open floorplan
  - your doors are always open


 
How to implement such a system:

First, you need to run two pipes per zone, one supply and one
return. The individual rooms (radiators/baseboards) are connected in
parallel to each other.

Second, you need a means of controlling the input to each baseboard,
a valve. I highly recommend Danfoss thermostats. These are also
known as nonelectric zonevalves. What they (the Danfoss) do is sense
the room temperature and control the flow of water through the radiator
to keep the room at the set temperature. They come with local or remote
sensing elements and in different sizes and configurations, they have a
built in antifreeze protection.

Third, you have to control your boiler differently to get the most
out of this setup. The circulator pump should run continuously and
the boiler outlet temperature should be controlled via an outside
temperature sensor.
  
All parts of the system are readily available and a DIYer can do
the installation. 

My application my give an idea of the efficiency possible:

family of 4, 2 teenage daughters (plenty of long hot showers!)
104 year old Victorian,
appr. 2400 sqft living space on three levels plus full basement
10 ft ceilings
R35 insulation in attic, NONE in walls or basement
35 windows of which 16 are more than 6 ft tall, all
windows are replacement double pane plus storms.
gas fired FHW with 7 year old boiler (70-72% efficiency)
1 zone, 1 circulator
13 Danfoss thermostats control 13 baseboards/radiators
separate gas fired hot water heater

Total bill by Boston Gas 1-Sep-1985 to 31-Aug-1986 

 US $ 1010.00 

If you want more details or have any more questions send mail or call.

Rudolf

    great info, thanks.
    
    Does anybody know of anyone in the fitchburg area that does this stuff??
    
    I would like to get a couple of estamates before I take the plunge
    
    
    joe
    
     PS. glen, any comments on heating??

    Re .3
    
    Running a supply and return line for every single room is a lot
    of plumbing.  A simpler method I've seen used is a simple bypass
    value before the radiator.  You turn the value and it goes straight
    thru a (possibly insulated) copper pipe, or you turn it the other
    way and it goes thru the Slant Fin portion.
    
    -al

>    o the rooms at the end of a zone (loop) have to have more 
>  radiator area/baseboard length in order to compensate for the
>  loss in temperature of your heating fluid in the first rooms
>  of the loop.

    
    I have to disagree with this statement.   My parents house had a
    3 zone heating system, and the difference between the rooms was
    negligable.  In fact, they had sections of the finned pipes in the
    basement on the RETURN lines, and got plenty of heat in the 
    basement.
    
    
    The drop in water temp is not that significant to cause cold 
    (or even lukewarm) water to be present in the system anywhere.
    If it is, the system was underspecified.
    
    
    
    -bill

    Check out note #640.  I put some info in there on some super efficeint
    furnaces.
    
    chris d.

    re: -5)
    
    Check out Jollimore Heating in Fitchburg. 345-0470
    
    This guy started his own business after
    working for several larger firms in Leom/Fitch area. Started about
    three-four years ago. Depends on repeat customers and word of mouth.
    
    His name is Bob.
    
    dana

    
    re: -8)
    
    I used to use Jollimore heating up to about  1 1/2 years ago. At
    that time he had sent out form letters to all his customers saying
    that he would no longer be able to service us and that we should
    call another guy that he knew. When I asked him about this he said
    he was taking a job with F.G.& E.

I have air in my forced hot water system.  Are there some easy ways to get 
rid of it?  I have looked for drain or bleeder valves at the radiators, and
find nothing, and the pressure in the system seems too low to force the air
upstairs down to the basement drain valve.  Any thoughts?

    All though the pressure may seem to low to force the air down to
    the basement drain valve, it'll do the trick.
    
    Hook up a hose to the basement drain valve and put the other end
    outside or down a drain.  Open the inlet.  You may also have to
    do something with the pressure relief valve.  Open the drain valve
    and bend the hose so it's crimped a little.  This will maintain
    pressure in the whole system and you will be able to feel the air
    bubbles going thru the crimp.
    
    -al

    I have just installed a seperate water tank on my FHW system because
    the tankless coil was old and plugged. So I had the same problem
    you have now. What you are going to have to do is find the purge
    valves on the zone controls. They are usually located where the system
    comes back together on the return line. The have 1/4 turn valves
    on the side of the fitting and a drain. shut the furnace off, connect
    a drain hose on one of the drain lines and shut the other one off.
    PURGE this line until you don't hear any air. Then do the other
    one. Then make sure both 1/4 turn valves are open and purge the
    return line. Then go to the furnace and locate the expansion tank.
    On the top of the tank will be an air bleed valve.(mine is brass)
    You should find a cap on the top. It will look like the cover cap
    of an inertube. If you open this slowly you should be able to here
    the air. you may have to do this quite a few times to get all the
    air, but this should take care of most of it.
    
    					good luck
    
     

< Note 722.9 by VERDI::CORBETT >
                            -< Still in business?? >-


        Nope!
        Rick Jollimore is my brother. He got him a cushy job w/ F.G.&E..
        As far  as I know, he's not doing any side jobs, but I can check,
        or get a recomnedation...
        
        Jay
        

I have a question about draining water from my expansion tank and recharging
the air pressure.  I'm refering to the pressurized expansion tank that is in
the hot water line (for water expansion) NOT to the expansion tank that
services my well and provides the pressure to the house.

I've noticed that my oil furnace is leaking water from the 30psi valve.
By observing the pressure gage vs furnace operation, I've noticed that when the
furnace turns on, the pressure slowly increases up to 30psi and then water
drips from the valve.  My users manual for the furnace said the pressurized
tank is there to allow the hot water to expand without increasing the pressure
in the system; the book said that if the pressure does increase, the tank may
have to be drained.

The tank has a "tire nipple" on the bottom.  Can I just shut off the water
flow leading to the tank, open the nipple and let water drain out, and then
use my bike pump to put air in?  If so, what psi do I use for the air?  Any
warnings or cautions that I should be aware of?

There is a "vent device" of some kind directly above the pressurized tank,
i.e. the valve is at the top of the water pipe and the tank is at the bottom
of the pipe.  The vent also has a "tire nipple" on the top of it.  What is
the vent for and what is the nipple for?  The valve looks like it is brass
and is a cylinder about 1" or so diameter and 3" or so long.

All comments will be appreciated!!

Allen

          The tank should have a rubber bladder in the bottom half to hold
    air.  This is pressurized through the "tire valve" at the bottom
    of the pressure tank.   On the typical system there is usually 15
    lbs air pressure in the bottom half of the expansion tank.  The
    top part of the tank holds water, and the tank is usually screwed
    into the bottom of an air scoop.  The air scoop removes air trapped 
    in the water and releases it through the "tire valve" sitting on top
    of it.  
      To return everything to normal, first bleed any air out of the
    valve on top of the expansion tank.  Next shut off the water to
    the automatic fill valve, and drain water from the system until your 
    pressure gauge drops to about 10 lbs. (carefull, that water is hot). 
    Now pressurize the bottom of the expansion tank with air to around 15
    lbs.  Lastly, open the supply to the automatic fill valve, and watch
    the pressure gauge.  The automatic fill valve should stop filling
    the boiler at about 12 - 15 lbs.  (This assumes you have an automatic
    fill.)
    
      If water came out of the valve at the bottom of the expansion tank,
    then the bladder has a hole in it and the tank will have to be
    replaced.  
      If the system fills to much more than 15 lbs. then you have a
    problem with the automatic fill valve.
    
      One last note, the valve on top of the expansion tank is an automatic
    air bleed.  These are brass cylindrical-shaped about 1.5" in diameter
    and 3" tall with an air valve on top.  The black plastic cover on the
    valve should be left loose, since if it is screwed on tight it cannot 
    bleed off air automatically.  If water leaks out continuously with the 
    cover loose then the unit should be replaced.
    
    (also, make sure you shut off the emergency shut off switch before
    doing any of the above, so that the burner doesn't start up while you
    are fooling with it.)
    
    Jim D.
    

    

Well, I did get around to getting most of the air out.  I never did find any
bleeder valves, and I looked all over the place, including places I was
told over the phone or in mail messages.  It looks like there are a lot of
different ways this is done.  Interesting observation that was kind of 
unexpected -- my zone valves are not in the supply lines, but in the return
lines.  The water comes out of the boiler, through a thermostat, into a 
common supply line, which splits into the three zones, and then the returns
are valved by the zone valves, recombined, and then run into the inlet of the
pump.  Just before the pump, there is a drain valve, followed by an in line
valve that shuts off the flow into the pump.  To bleed the system, I put a 
hose on the drain line before the pump, and opened it up.  I used a short piece
of transparent hose, so I could see what was going on.  I had to do the bleed
with the pump running, and I did the zones individually.  When the pump was not
running, there was not enough velocity to get the air to run down the return
pipe.  It just got trapped in the christmas tree containing the zone valves.

The zone valving in the return seemed kind of counter intuitive to me, but
it does keep the temperature lower at the valves.  This is the only FHW system
I am familiar with.  Any more comments by more experienced people?  If it
makes any difference, this is a 6 year old natural gas fired system.

Thanks.../e

    In my last house (5 zone FHW gas fired), the zone valves were on
    the return end of the 5 loops, right before the pump ... and everything
    else sounds like your set up too. So, if it's oddball, we both had/have
    the same set up!

    Question regarding the size of pipe used in FHW system.
    
    What are the advantages and/or disadvantages to using 1/2" piping
    for the risers where the baseboard pipe is 3/4" and so are the main
    supply and return lines?
    
    One potential problem I see is one of flow restriction where the
    circulator will have to work harder, thus reducing the life of the
    circulator.  But is that a concern where the house is only six rooms
    (2 stories) and the pipes are laid-out without too many 90 degree
    bends?
    
    Would there be a significant heat loss in the 1/2" pipe vs. the
    3/4"?  Or is that heat loss made up by way of less water in the
    system causing more cycles through the boiler?
    
    Thanks.

    RE: .3 & .4
    
    Now I know how to discribe my system.
    

   re: .11
    My system has a 3/4" loop with 1/2" risers - seems like the normal
    way of doing it.  My theory is, you want the radiators at the end
    of the loop to get reasonably hot water too, so you want "enough"
    hot water to bypass the first radiators in the loop so there is
    still some heat left by the time you get to the last ones.  Having
    smaller diameter risers than loop helps this happen.

Re: zone valves in the return:

Sounds like that is that norm.  After thinking about it for a while, I 
decided it make sense.  With the zone valves in the return, the whole 
system is on the high pressure end of the pump, and you are more likely
to get even flow when more than one zone is running.  If the valves were
at the output of the boiler, the pressure would vary a lot more between zones
and they would interract more.  Make sense?  Anyone out there have the zone
valves in the supply line?  Just curious..../e

	The expansion tank on my furnace (forced hot water by oil) is
	supposed to be a holding tank for hot water.  However, this
	weekend, the water obviously decided the expansion tank wasn't
	big enough, and started expanding its way to the basement floor.
	At first I thought it was sweat/condensation from the humidity,
	but now I believe there is a leak somewhere.  About 1/3 down
	from the top of the tank, there is a silver-colored metal band
	that appears to be a factory-installed clamp of some type.
	The water is collecting on top of this metal ring and slowly
	dripping down.  It's not a gushing leak.  Water is also collecting
	around the base of the furnace itself, which appears to be an
	unrelated problem.

	Has anyone had a problem like this?  Is that metal band really
	a clamp that needs to be tightened?  (if so, I can't figure out
	how.)  Can I just put a sealer around this ring?  Or do I have a
	defective expansion tank that needs replacing?  Does the water
	at the base of the furnace indicate a related problem?

	Thanks,
	- Chris

    If it's truly an expansion tank, it should have no water in it -
    only air.  Ususally there is an air valve that you can attach a
    bicycle pump to and recharge it.  I don't remember what the recommended
    pressure is seems to me it's only about 10 pounds or so.
    
    At any rate there is a bladder in the tank that separate the air
    from the water.  If it's leaking, then you don't have an expansion
    tank after all and needs to be replaced.
    
    I've never heard of the dual purpose use you speak of.

    I have an oil FHW system I am going to drain to add some more
    baseboard heaters.  That's easy, except...
    
    My system was filled with (I believe) ethylene glycol.  I need
    to dispose of this in a safe manner.  I estimate there is about
    16 to 20 gallons in the entire system.
    
    Q:  Can I have the stuff tested to see if it really is ethylene glycol?

    Q:  Where can I safely dispose of the stuff?  I have a private well,
        so it's not going anywhere close to my house in any case!  Any
        ideas on people to call?  My oil company doesn't have any ideas.
    
    Thanks!!
               --tom

    
    
    	I know that most dumps around Lunenburg and Sterling area have
    a hazard waste dump day where you can bring this sort of stuff.
    They just had one in Sterling about 2 weeks ago where you were allowed
    to get rid of ie: 5 pounds of paint, gas ... ect, anything over
    you had to pay alittle. Call your local town dump or fire department
    to get furthur info in your area.
    
    	-Steve-
    

      If it's ethylene glycol and it has rust inhibitors, consider using
    it in you car radiator.  Ethylene glycol is anti-freeze.  Take some
    to a service station and have them test it to see how cold of a
    temperature it is good for.  You are right about not dumping it.
    Also, don't let any animals get to it, they will drink it for its
    'sweet' taste and it WILL kill them.                        
    
    -Jim
    

    I've never done this before, so I'm not speaking from experience.
    But it seems to me that you should be able to just collect the
    ethylene glycol that you drain out, then when you're done working,
    just return it to the system.  You'll probably have to add more
    if you've increased the capacity of your system.
    
    Jim

>      If it's ethylene glycol and it has rust inhibitors, consider using
>    it in you car radiator.  
    
    
    So what do you do with the stuff that is already in your
    Radiator?

    >>So what do you do with the stuff that is already in your
    >>Radiator?
      
      I suppose I deserved that.  I just haven't run across a car that
    didn't need to have anti-freeze added on occasion.  But then again,
    I don't have any fairly new cars.  Also, some tends to get lost
    when changing cooling system components like a water pump or hose.
    I also didn't see the obvious...why not just put it back into the
    FHW system.  Is there a reason not to re-use it?
    
    -Jim
    

     Reusing it is probably the best idea. I would like to point out
    however, that it may not be ETHYLENE Glycol (which is the same stuff
    used in car radiators and VERY poisonous to plants and animals),
    but POLYETHYLENE Glycol (or something like that) which is not poisonous
    at all and is the stuff used to winterize swimming pool and camper
    plumbing. If it's bright red or bright blue it may be the latter,
    if it's blueish green it's probably Ethylene Glycol.
    
    					Kenny

    I am planning on putting forced hot water baseboard heat in my slab
    home (the cathedral ceilings prevent forced air). Has anyone done
    this? Should the channels in the concrete slab be cut with a saw
    or power hammer? Should the pipes be insulated before refilling
    the channels with concrete? 
    
    I would appreciate any suggestions you may have.
    
    Joe
    

RE:1456.0 

>    I am planning on putting forced hot water baseboard heat in my slab
>    home (the cathedral ceilings prevent forced air). Has anyone done
>    this? Should the channels in the concrete slab be cut with a saw
>    or power hammer? Should the pipes be insulated before refilling
>    the channels with concrete? 
    
	Be sure you know what is where in your slab before you go cutting
	into it.  You may have electric wiring or plumbing lines running
	in the slab.  Boxing in the pipes at the floor/wall juncture might
	be an easier/safer choice if you're not sure.  If you do decide to
	cut the slab then you probably want a wet saw, but be prepared 
	whatever you do will be extremely messy.

	Free advice is worth what you pay for it :-) Good Luck Randy

    Why don't you run the pipes through the walls instead of messing
    around with the cement?

                Usually if the heat in the slab dies, the fix is a
        baseboard unit that goes all the way around the outside wall.
        There can be a few exceptions to this when the room doesn't have
        a long enough outside wall (like the bathroom?) and then a stub
        is put down one of the interior walls that connects to the
        outside wall. This allows all the piping to be in the baseboard
        unit. Thus no cement cutting (or almost none - read on). 
                
                There are usually two exceptions to this. The front and
        back doors need to cut this line; so an alternative route needs
        to be found in these areas. The old way was to go up the wall
        and into the attic, across the door, and back down in the wall
        again. This did lead to some real hassles with frozen pipes in a
        severe winter, and thus the installations now seem to be cutting
        a trough across the door opening in the slab for those two
        spots. From what I'm told, it is messy to do, but very good once
        done.
                
                This whole scheme has one big disadvantage. You end up
        with ONE zone for the whole house where you had a "zone" per
        room before (you could at least change the percentage of heat
        that went each room in the original slab piping). And guess
        what. The rooms that you would like not to heat a lot (the
        bedrooms) usually have baseboards on two sides, and thus more
        heat than they need. This can be corrected somewhat by proper
        installation of baseboard units with fins mixed with those
        without fins to reduce the amount of heat available, but even
        the unfinned pipes do radiate. (Yes, they do sell baseboard
        which has unfinned pipe for this reason.)
                
                /s/     Bob

At a recent neighborhood get-together, my neighbors warned me to expect one or
two 2-3 day power outages each winter (Boston Electric).  Believe it or not,
(Boylston Municipal Light was so reliable that I never before worried about 
this.  I'm not panicing, but I would like to be prepared.  My gas hot water
heater will still run (no AC hooked up to it) and I have plenty of candles,
but I need AC to run the fan on my FHA heating system.  Relatively expensive
solutions include a backup generator (see note 452) and woodstoves in the
bedrooms.  I'm told kersosene heater are illegal.  I'm looking for suggestions
on 

how do I provide heat when a storm pulls the plug? 

What general suggestions do you have for coping with power losses?

    ...when I was growing up...
    
    Dick
    

    RE woodstoves 
    
    You don't really need woodstoves in the bedrooms. One reasonably
    centralized woodstove should be able to keep the inside of the
    house liveable if not summery. (This can vary quite a bit with
    the house, of course.) In our Deck House contemporary, one woodstove
    (Vermont Casting Defiant) will keep the inside of the house in
    the 60's so long as the outside temperature doesn't drop below
    the 20's for too long. You can cook on it (we have), and it keeps
    the one room more than comfortable indefinitely, and the bedroom
    stays warm enough with enough blankets. Losing power for more
    than a couple of days is pretty unusual, even with Boston Edison
    (our worst was 54 hours after Gloria).
    
    Danger: if you just get a woodstove for the occasional storm,
    you may not be familiar enough with it to use it safely. When
    using a woodstove, you must keep the chimney clean, install it
    correctly with respect to clearances and air-tight-edness, not
    let the cat jump on it while it's going (the cat will only do
    this ONCE), etc. etc. If you install a woodstove, use it enough
    to know how to use it. (And buy Wood Heat Safety; I forget the
    publisher or author.)

    FHA system with enough heat in it should get you some convection
    heat without the fan. Does your FHA furnace need AC to start? I
    know my oil fired FHW does.
    
    Look into wood furnace conversions. You can get add-on units to
    your furnace. When the power goes out just stoke up the wood side!
    
    /tb/
    

RE: .4

	I've got a wood-FHA furnace that is tied into the regular gas
FHA furnace.  Even with the power off, if the wood FHA furnace is burning
a good fire, the hot air still manages to heat most of the house...

    How much do you want to spend on this problem?  I suggest you put
    a removeable crank on the FHA fan.  If the power goes out you just
    crank the fan.  I guarantee you will stay warm! ;-)
    
    Stan

>    How much do you want to spend on this problem?  I suggest you put
>    a removeable crank on the FHA fan.  If the power goes out you just
>    crank the fan.  I guarantee you will stay warm! ;-)
    
Good point - not too much $.  However, sounds like the generator is 
the best overall solution (most bang for the buck)

Actually, I'm willing to bet that a half dozen car batteries in the proper
configuration would supply enough power to run the FHA fan for the *required*
time that the fan should be running for a couple of days.

Of course there probably are better battery types.

Jim. 

    An AC motor running on DC that should be interesting. You would
    need an inverter to convert to AC probably a pretty healthy one
    too. How many amps does an average blower motor draw?
                                                         
    
    -j
    

    
    
    		
    
    	I say go for the generator.
    
    	I think the end cost for the generator will be far less than
    the wood stove. 
    
    	With the stove you have to consider the size of your existing
    chiminey. Can it handle a stove also? You'll have to do some masonary
    work around the stove also.
    
    	With the generator you'll keep your furnace going, you can
    use it to keep your refrigerator going, and maybe still be able to
    watch a little HBO.                   
    
                  
    						rjr
    

Yes, looks like a generator...
FYI - my blower fan draws roughly  600W

Being believers in blankets and low heating bills, we like to let the
heat go way down at night (like to 55). The only problem is in the
morning; getting the heat back up is like getting a 36hp Beetle up a
14% grade. I've concluded our problem is the radiators: They are the
old style cast iron baseboard units. Once warm, they provide lots of
even heat. However, they have an enormous water capacity. (I once
measured an extra section lying in the basement, and it works out to
about a gallon per three feet.) Because the radiators are essentially
cold in the morning, the water volume soaks up about 40K BTU just to
get to operating temperature. The heat slowly works its way around the
house, as the low limit alternately cuts the circulator in and out
with all the cold water being dumped into the boiler. An hour and a
half later when the radiators are all hot, the dining and living room
overshoot because of all the heat now stored in the radiators. (You're
probably computing out the apparent BTU capacity of the boiler - it's
not that bad. It has a 1 gallon per hour nozzle (oil), so I suspect
we're also being sandbagged by the anticipator in the thermostat.)

I've pretty much decided to rip out (perhaps a misnomer when dealing
with cast iron) the old radiators and replace them with conventional
3/4" fin tube. (That's what we have in the game room downstairs on
a separate zone, and when you turn it on it comes up *fast*.)

Have I missed anything? Are there any advantages to the cast iron
units I don't know about? (These are not the old fashined stand-up
radiators - they are baseboard units about 10" tall with fins on the
back.)

The heating loop is a so-called mono-flow system, with each radiator
section tapped onto a loop of 1" pipe, like this:

			 _________________
		      __|                 |__
		     |  |_________________|  |
		     |                       |
		     |                       |
	=============O=======================O===========


The supply side tap is a regular tee; the return side tap is a flow
valve that creates a suction on the radiator pipe, causing hot water
to flow through the radiator. The larger radiator sections are fed
through 3/4" pipe; the smaller ones are fed through 1/2" pipe. Is
there any problem in connecting equivalent lengths of 3/4" fin-tube to
either the 3/4" or 1/2" feeds? This would be a lot easier and cheaper
than dealing with all that 1" pipe to turn it into a conventional
series loop.

    We also like to keep the upstairs bedrooms cool, but it is cold
    when we're getting ready for work.  So: we have a wall-mounted,
    thermostatically-controlled electric heating unit in both of the
    upstairs bathrooms.  Takes the chill off, and you don't have to
    fire up the boiler for the two hours or so that you're waking up.
    
    pbm
    

	I think that if you talk to a heating contractor they will try to
	talk you out of it.  The CI units are generally perceived to be better
	than the copper/finned types.

	It'll probably take more feet of the finned types to get the same 
	heat.  The advantage is the same as the disadvantage  they hold heat
	well.  

	My solution is to have my "computer thermostat" turn the heat on at
	5:30 and turn it off at 7:30.  The thermal mass and the overshoot 
	keep the house warm until 9 or so.  I'd experiment with timing before
	investing in heating equipment.

    Last winter I had a FHW system installed to replace electric baseboard
    heating and also an electric hot water tank.  I had a 40 tank installed
    instead of the tankless system and discarded the old electric tank.
    
    I live in N.H. and had a seperate meter for the hot water vs the
    rest of the house so I knew exactly what my electric hot water was
    costing me (average $60/month).  During the winter months when the
    boiler is working hot water is virtually free.  During the summer
    months I average less than a tank of oil for the period.
    
    So my opion, I would go with a tank on the boiler and get rid of
    the Electric tank.
    

      It isn't too bad a setup, but what you should have is a bypass
    for the winter months so the water doesn't go through the electric
    tank at all. The trouble with the setup you have is if you don't
    use the hot water for a couple of days(like if you go away for the
    weekend), then the entire tank of water will be cold and you'll have
    to run the hot water a LONG time before you'd get enough hot into
    the tank to replace the cold and actually get hot water coming out
    of the faucet. This could happen even from day to day to a lesser
    extent. The only way out of this is to leave the electricity to
    the hot water tank turned on all of the time. Read that as $$ (heating
    the water twice).
      As for cost, electric is the most expensive way to heat anything
    when compared against gas or oil.
    
    			     		Kenny 

    The question I have will you need the large storage capacity that
    the electric unit offers? If you do then hold on to it. Look under 
    the directory note 1111.1 for heating topics, some concern storage 
    tanks. Specifically look in directory 1111.40. The money you would 
    have to put out for a unit that only stores domestic hot water would 
    be hard to recoup from what the price you would pay for using part 
    time the electric unit.

    Although the electrical unit you own may not be as heavily insulated
    as a storage only unit.
    	    
    You may want to keep the electric unit just for the convenience
    of always having enough hot water around. With a tankless system
    the probabilty of running out of hot water is much higher than with
    a system that has a storage device or separate domestic water heater.
    
    There are charts in this notes file that compare btu output and cost 
    of oil vs. electric. For starters look at note 496 and especially
    at note 496.5. There are other notes that discuss Boilermates that
    I recall.

    Figure out the cost expenditures from them with the current setup and 
    then make your decision.

    Steve    

    

I have a similar setup.  It came with the house.  The previuos owner
    put the electric tank in when oil was $1+ with a bypass valve. 
    My building inspector recommended going with all oil in order to
    keep the heating system from rusting during the summer.  We have
    always had enough heat with the tankless.  One inspector's view.

    I've also been told that if you shut off your bioler completely
    during the summer, vacation etc., you are putting stress on 
    the seals in the unit and this will eventually weaken the seals
    and may cause leaks.  The stress comes from being cooled off
    and heated up often, also condensation in the boiler causing
    rust, damp basement air would also contribute. It is better to
    turn the temp down to minimum, so the boiler at least goes on
    to dry up any dampness.
    
    So turning off your boiler in the summer to use the electric
    heater, may cost you big bucks in the long run.
                    
    Seems to make sense, so I never turn my boiler completely off.

    I'm going to isolate and drain the electric hot water heater and
    mull this over during the winter.  Thanks for the feedback - you've
    given me a lot to think about and raised issues I wouldn't have
    considered!
    
    Pete

    This comment is slightly off the subject but worth considering for
    those who are chosing between electric and OF or GF HW.  Don't forget
    to include the cost of replacing the electric hot water heater every
    3-5 years depending on how hard your water is.  You will be surprised
    how an additional $250-300 for the period will skew your calculations
    further toward oil or gas.

    In the case of the author of this note, I'm sure if the electric
    HW heater goes it just goes out of the system.
    
    Stan

I've been having trouble with the second zone of my FHW system getting 
hot when the first zone is switched on (but the second is not.)  After a 
lot of trouble shooting, I finally realized that I must be seeing a 
failure of the check valve in the second zone and that what's happening 
is return water from the first zone is running through the second zone 
backwards! (I noticed that the return line was getting warm before the 
supply line.)

Now the question is, what do I do?  Does the old check valve have to be 
replaced, or can it be rebuilt in place, or might it just need to be
adjusted?  There is a thumb screw coming out of the top of it that I 
assume is an adjustment, then there is a locking nut to keep the 
thumbscrew in place and finally a packing nut (like on a valve) to keep 
the water from squirting out.)  Has anyone ever had this problem?  I'd 
sure like to avoid having to cut the old check valve out of the line and 
put a new one in...
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Sometimes a piece of crud can get into the flow-check and cause
    it to stick open.  A furnace guy told me once that sometimes you
    can clear it out by opening the flow-check via the thumb screw that
    you mentioned and circulating the water for an hour or so, then
    close it and see if it works.
    
    If that does'nt do it, then if it was mine I would remove it and
    clean it out by boiling in vinegar, make sure the flapper is free
    and reinstall.  If not already in place, put a valve upstream from
    the flow-check so you don't have to drain down your system to do
    the soldering.  Also it might help to put in a union on one side
    of the flow-check because it is easier to solder a union onto a
    wet pipe that to solder a closed pipe with water trickling into it.
    
    It's really not a big job if you can solder.
    
    Good luck
    

    I dont know what kind of valves you have but I had this problem
    once....turned out that it was the (Teco) valve....they have a
    life, so I was told, of about five years....I could tell when
    they were gone...when I went into the cellar it smelled like some
    electrical wires had burned....replacing them costs about $40..
    
    Rick

Re: .1

I opened the check valve last night and ran the system for a while, then
closed it.  This morning I switched on zone 1, and zone2 stayed cold.
Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you,
Thank-you... 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Look gang, there is ONE simple question:
    
    Can modern tankless boilers provide CONTINUOUS hot showers?  I mean
    showers, not faucets, and I mean continuous for an hour, not for
    5 or 10 minutes.
    
    Opinions, please!
    
    - Paul

re Note 1589.10 by AITG::GREEK:

>     Can modern tankless boilers provide CONTINUOUS hot showers?  

Mine does (a tankless HW heater on an oil-fired FHW boiler).

But the flow rate is less than the flow rate on the cold-water lines -- but it
never "runs out".  (But I have difficulty, for example, in getting a VERY HOT
full bathtub of water, because the water in the tub begins to cool off before
it's full!)
           
Bob

    Ditto for .2; with the new sooper dooper thermostats available these
    days, I'd try that solution before major heating overhauls.  From
    your description, you have "cast iron baseboard" heat, which as
    mentioned is generally considered highly desirable.

	I,m in the process of wiring up an addition (sunroom) to my house
and am about ready for a plumber and sheetrocker/plasterer. I thing that's
got me a little perplexed is which one comes first (the chicken or the egg).
The only plumbing being done is for a new FHW heat zone. I can't see having
a plumber come out to rough it in then have it inspected then get the 
plasterer in to do his thing then try to get the plumber back to finish
putting in the baseboards. 
	The other way I thought to do it is to have the wiring inspected
then have the sheetrock/plaster done then have the plumbing done as that
can all be inspected from underneath. But, I'm worried that the plaster
will need heat to dry properly and with cold weather fast approaching,
Ill need the plumbing done first, but then how do you plaster behind the
baseboards.

	So which comes first the heat or the walls?

				Thanks...
					...Dave

    1) Framing
    2) Rough plumbing and heating
    3) Rough electrical
    4) Finish walls
    5) Finish electrical & plumbing
    
    Most plumbers are used to working in this order, so they usually
    expect to come back for the finish work without you having to get
    back in the queue.    

    It is also possible to attach baseboard heat directly to the studs
    and then plaster/sheetrock up to them, but I think this technique
    is harder to finish so it looks good. So you might be able to get
    the rough and finish plumbing done in one step if your plasterer
    will buy doing it this way.
    
    

    The sheetrocker will only need heat for the taping process.  What
    we did during winter-time construction was to get everything the
    sheet rock was going to hide inspected, then had the sheetrockers
    hang the sheetrock (no tape or mud), then the plumber put in the
    baseboard FHW registers, then once the house could be kept warm,
    the sheetrockers completed the taping.
    
    Everybody concerned excepted this a normal cold weather procedures.
    
    BC
    

    Sorry for my typos and poor word choice.  I get so excited when
    I talk about sheetrock.
    BC
    

    I just finished this step, I hung the sheetrock, mud and taped it
    and then put in the heat, you can do it this way if its warm enough.
    you shouldn't tape of plaster if it's cold, the joints will tend
    to expand too much when it gets warm and crack. What alot of builders
    do is to attach a section of sheetrock a liitle larger than the
    baseboard heat would cover, install the heat, then once the heat
    is in and the interior of the house get warmer, install the remainder
    of the sheetrock and then tape of plaster it, If you can walk through
    any new constuction and you'll see this being done.
 
    I found that when building my addition, by walking thru houses being
    constructed, you pick up alot of ways to do certain things...
    
    
    
    Royce 

re Note 1631.5 by AMULET::TAYLOR:

>     What alot of builders
>     do is to attach a section of sheetrock a little larger than the
>     baseboard heat would cover, install the heat, 

When my house was built, they put a strip of sheetrock a little shorter than
the height of the baseboard behind the baseboard.  When the rest of the
sheetrock was installed, it was slipped behind the baseboard an inch or so.
Of course, that joint isn't taped, but it isn't visible, either.

Bob

    
       I had an oil burner installed last spring and am presently building
    a room downstairs. Anyway instead of having them come back to install
    the second zone downstairs I framed the wall that the baseboard was 
    going on and attached a strip of sheetrock a little shorter then
    the baseboard as in reply .6 . That's what was recommended to me.
    So now the oil burners set up and when I'm ready to sheetrock it'll
    slip right behind the baseboard. It fits great and looks good, I tried
    a section to see the results. 
       I was told the same thing, thats the way it's done if the heat
    has to get in there first.
    
    Ted
       

    I have a two zone forced hot water system....when I got up this
    morning I could hear the water flowing thru and making a lot of
    noise....apparently there is more air in the line than the expander
    tank can take out...
    
    My question is.....how do I bleed the lines?
    
    Thanks
    
    Rick

    	To bleed the line first take off the protective cover and look
    for a small valve.  Open turn it open with a small screw driver
    and listen for the air rushing out.  This should be done when the
    system is on.  You might also want to have a small cup and towel
    near by to catch and wipe up any spills.
    
    					=Ralph=

    You may need only .1's suggestion - all you have to do is find the
relief thingie.  Mine resemble the caps on a car/bicycle valve - unscrew
them to let out air and not-too-much water.  Look for one somewhere in the
highest run (second floor - air rises dontyaknow) and at an inside corner
of a room where the baseboard turns a corner.  I found a kiddie, bendable
drinking straw handy for directing the water into a cup.  The water may be
real hot - be prepared.
    I bit the bullet recently and cut out one zone to re-route the baseboard
in a bathroom renovation.  I had to drain the whole system (hose to the
bottom of the boiler), install a stop/waste on the affected zone, and refill
the system.  For this procedure I had to do what .2 suggested - hose to a
valve on each of the other two zones to drain water until no air came out.
I still had to do what .1 said after I was done for some fine-tune bleeding.
(I think, in the trade, "bleeding" is also referred to as "purging".)

    The valve that .3 is talking about should have the cap on very loosely.
    If it is tightened down all the way the air will never escape.

    More important, the air is getting to the system some how. installation
    of a one way valve might help solve the long term air bleeding.
    
    /cal

    
    I am looking for some suggestions to as what may be the cause of
    a leaking heater.  I looked through some of the previous notesfiles
    on heaters and found it to be too 'technical' for me.  Please bear
    with me and explain it from the beginning...
    
    I live in a condo which is about 20 years old.  The heating system
    is by either hot water/steam (how can I tell?)  Against the walls
    are long panels where the heat comes out of (baseboards?)  This
    morning there was a pool of water around the kitchen baseboard.
     I turned the heat down to 50 to stop this, but I don't know if
    it would help.
    
    Could Noters please help me out on this one?  Should I call in a
    repair man? (they're charging $45/hr!) Is this something I can fix
    myself?
    
    HELP!
    -new homeowner
    

    
    Sounds as though you have forced hot water. The steam radiators 
    are typically large cast iron units with chrome plated air valves 
    to one side. 
    
    The forced hot water units are basically a copper pipe with fins
    attached. These units are soldered in, much like your water supply.
    It sounds as though either 1) one of the solder joints is leaking
    or 2) the unit sprung a leak. I would suggest removing the front
    panel, which may extend along the entire length, and looking for
    where the leak is. If it's the joint then resolder and if it's the 
    unit I would replace it. 
    
    I have not delt with forced hot water heating, for I have the old
    steam heat, but This is what I would do to find and correct the
    problem.
    
    wayne  
    

	One simple possibility is that the bleeder valve is leaking. It
	may just need to be tightened.

	Get down on your hands and knees with the heat *ON* and see if
	you can find where the leak is coming from. If it's a leaky pipe,
	call the plumber unless you know how to cut, replace and solder
	pipes. If it's in rough shape, the whole baseboard het pipe may
	need to be replaced. If it's just the bleed valve, get a wrench
	and tighten it.

	As a temporary fix, look around the baseboard, or more probably
	the basement, for a water faucet in-line with the pipe to the 
	baseboard. If you close this faucet, you will turn off that
	radiator while you decide how you are going to get it fixed. Some
	installations do this on most/all radiators so that individual
	rooms may be shut off if they are not used.

Larry

    If it's 20 years old you may have cast-iron baseboard, in which
    case it won't be the tube-and-fin business and you won't be able
    to take off the front.  However, there should be some kind of covers
    on the ends that can be removed.  First thing would be to investigate
    and find out where the water is coming from.  It may be a bleeder
    valve, as suggested.  If it's cast iron baseboard, it probably has
    threaded pipe unions on the ends and one of those may be loose.
    You might be able to tighten the nut (assuming they did things right
    when they put it in and used pipe unions) and stop the leak, if
    that's the source.
    It should not be too big a job to fix, unless there are unexpected
    complications; maybe 1 hour for a plumber.
    
    If you have steam, you'll have heard "Psssst!" from the vent valves
    on all your radiators, and if you've heard it you'll know what I'm
    talking about.  But I'd guess you have forced hot water.

    I had the same problem several weeks back when I had to drain one
    of the zones. I filled the zone back up but just couldn't get the
    last of the air out. Checked all the books- they had you do what
    .1 suggested. I couldn't find a bleeder high in the zone. I called
    my oil service rep. He make me do as .2 suggested- did the trick.
    I don't think it was mentioned but make sure the furance is off
    and be prepared to run the water for a while. It took about 10 to
    15 minutes before all the air was routed out.
    
    

    
    Am I missing something here?
    
    The two methods described both depend on incoming water forcing
    air out of the pipes via 2 types of orfices, 1. Bleeder valves on
    the baseboard pipes, and 2. The faucet for the heating zone located
    near the boiler.
    
    I've been able to purge the air from my 2 zone system fine using
    just the bleeder valves.  Although the hose/faucet procedure .2
    suggests will work, I don't see why this is a more effective method
    than the simply using the bleeder valves.  6 of one 1/2 dozen of
    the other?
    
    Steve
    

    RE:.7 Afer I had a new boiler installed last year the system sounded
    like a water fall.  In the past years I would get noise for the
    first few days of the heating season and the automatic bleeders
    would take care of it.  I think the new system (first fill) contained
    a lot of air in the water. I manually bled the baseboards 3 or
    4 times using the small bleeders at each radiator.  Each time some
    air would be released but not all. Finally a friend came over, who works
    on boilers for a living He hooked up my garden hose on each zone
    down the cellar and  ran it to my sump pump.  The air that gurgled
    out was amazing.  After that the system was very quiet.  Now that
    we have begun heating again this season I have not had a repeat
    of the problem.  
    
    Let it really blow out the bubbles thru the hose.
    
    Frank
                                                  

re .7

Unfortunately, the do-it-herselfer that installed my upstairs zone never put a 
bleeder valve in.  The end result is that the hose and drain system is the 
only way I can get air out.

re .5

You are right about air getting into the system.  My well water has a lot of 
air in it.  The result is that when I purge the system, I introduce water with 
air.  The heat tend to make the air come out faster, but it still takes a 
while.  (My water bed develops bubbles even after a few months, and it has no 
leaks!)  While this sounds like a never ending story, I found that the bleeder 
over the furnace will suffice to collect and expel the air extracted from the 
water, and keep the heat relatively noisless over the winter.  But when the 
water sits all summer, the air comes out, and rises.  So, every fall, while 
I'm putting the hose away...

						     
							- JP

    RE: .10
    
    It's not only DIYers that leave out the air bleeder valves in the
    system, many professional plumbers leave them out too.  My brand
    new house doesn't have any of them.  It costs them less and takes
    less time.  That way they figure you have to call them back to
    purge the air out :-)
    
    
    -al

    Sheesh, the previous discussions sure make me wary about yucky,
    wall space consuming baseboard systems.  My ugly radiators are a
    breeze to purge -  sure glad I live in an old house ...
    
    I guess that in the baseboard system there's more horizontal piping
    and this increases the likelihood of an air trap?

    Even after you have purged all of the air out of your heating system or
    waterbed, "air" will continue to "form" over time. After all, what's
    water made up of? Heating the water will accelrate this process also. 
    
    That's why heating systems have (or should have) automatic air purgers
    and also why you have to get squeeze the air out of a water bed
    periodically. 

    Charly

    With Seabrook in the news everyday, it seems everyone in southern
    NH with electric heat is converting to oil or gas heat. I've got
    Seabrook in the back of my mind, but I'm just sick of lugging and
    stacking wood as well as the mess associated with wood and coal.
    I also worry about the long term health effects of inhaling coal
    dust and wood/coal ash particles.
    
    In short, I'd like to convert to oil or gas FHW heat. FHA would
    not be practical because 2/3 of my basement is finished.
    
    I've been having trouble locating a reputable contractor because
    they are all too busy raking in the cash to even give you the time
    of day. I've done some minor plumbing in my day (water heater
    installations, shut-off valves, outdoor faucets, etc.) and was
    wondering how difficult it would be to put in a FHW system as a
    DIY project. If I could just get all the baseboards installed, I
    think I could find a plumber to do the final hookups.
    
    Has anyone out there ever done this? Any books you would recommend?
    Any advice or helpful hints?
    
    Thanks for your help.

    I put in FHW in the family room I built, I also 'helped' a neighbor
    reroute the upstairs zone.
    
    All in all, if you are good with a torch, you should not have any
    problems.  The biggest headache you would have in fitting a new
    system in an already existing house is running the pipes from the
    boiler for the various zones.
    
    If you do decide to do the installation yourself, or even if you
    don't, it is a good idea to include bleeder (purge) fittings in
    the high spots of each zone.  This will reduce later grief when
    you have to drain the system.
    
    - Mark

    I did my first FHW system last fall. I installed a 5 zone susytem
    using separate circulating pumps instead of zone valves. If you
    look at the total system it appears to be quite complicated but,
    thats because there are 5 zones, all of which are assembled in the
    same manner. It really isn't that complicated or difficult providing
    you have some basic plumbing ability. The vendor from which you
    purchase your boiler/supplies should be able to help lay it out
    and give you info on where the different valves/air chambers/pumps
    etc., go. If your house is a single story (ranch) style home it
    is fairly easy to install because you can work every thing from
    the cellar. If your house has multiple finished floors, it will
    add to the pipe location/access problems. 

    Yep, installing FHW is plumbing.  No more, no less.  It's probably
    on the same order of difficulty as plumbing a new bathroom or kitchen
    (from scratch).  If your plumbing skills are up to this, FHW will
    be no problem.
    
    

    One positive aspect of this kind of plumbing (FHW heat) is that
    you don't have to worry about poisoning yourself or the neighbors
    (but even so, it's probably forbidden by law in Massachusetts).
    
    My father did the whole house when I was a small child.  I gave
    him a hand much more recently;  it didn't seem *that* hard.  He
    has this big (30-inch tall) cylindrical tank of what I think is
    acetylene, which has probably done the whole house (it's been in
    the basement for as long as I can remember).
    
    A couple of tips:
    
    Get some devices to shield floors and walls from the torch.  My
    father has several hot-plate-sized chunks of what I'd guess are
    asbestos shingles, and a piece of asbestos cloth.
    
    If you don't like the idea of little balls of hot solder rolling
    about, keep at hand some metal device for catching them -- and be
    careful, when holding the device, not to interpose your fingers!
    
    Don't sweat too much ;-)
    Dick

>    (but even so, it's probably forbidden by law in Massachusetts).

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary:  When I had FHW installed recently (by 
a licensed plumber), neither permit nor inspection was required for the
plumbing - not even for the connection to the fresh water supply, which
struck me as a little odd.  Both permit and inspection were required for
the connection to the gas supply, though.  The work was done in Maynard.
    

>    Get some devices to shield floors and walls from the torch.  My
>    father has several hot-plate-sized chunks of what I'd guess are
>    asbestos shingles, and a piece of asbestos cloth.

Small pieces of drywall work well enough for this purpose, and are less 
environmentally objectionable.

    There are all kinds of books and pamphlets available showing
    what goes into a FHW system.  Laying out the system and putting
    in all the little do-dads like bleeder- T's on the down turns,
    air scoops, venturis (if you put in a series-parallel system),
    main air purger, expansion tank etc is fairly simple.
    
    The biggest headache you may have is when you are all done and
    ready to fill the system ....does it leak? agagagagagagagaga.
    All amateur plumbers know the grief of trying to resolder a pipe
    that you can't get all the water out of.
    
    For "no money down" I'm going to let you in on  secret that could
    save you untold grief.
    
    When you get your supplies, ask for a "snifter valve"  Its a little
    gizmo that looks like a tire chuck, but threads into a "T".  You
    can then charge the entire system with compressed AIR first to check
    for leaks (be sure to have gate valves to isolate the boiler from
    the rest of the system).  You can then listen for psssst. And you
    can leave the valve in place when you're done.  
    
    Good Luck.
    

On the subject of chicken and egg, what about electrical vs. insulation?  I 
would think it's easier to install the electrical BEFORE the insulation so that
you don't chew up the insulation while wiring.  However, when doing ceiling, I
though you put up firring strips after the insulation is in and then drape the
wires over the firring strips.  Wouldn't this mean you have to wire AFTER 
insulating?

I'm confused...

-mark

    	Wiring is done before insulation because it needs to be inspected
    before the walls are filled with insulation. hard to see with stuff
    in the way. 
    	As far as ceilings go, you usually insulate from the attic.
                                                
    						...Dave

good point about inspection of wiring.  as for installing from the attic, you 
can't do that if you have cathedral ceilings.  Is that why I've seen good ol'
Norm squeezing insulation between the strapping?

-mark

  Is it really a good idea to string wires under the strapping?  The
  electrician who did our place drilled holes through the ceiling joists
  and ran the wires before the insulation went in.  He said that looping
  the wires under the strapping was ok by code but looked too sloppy for
  him.  Was he a purist or are there good reasons to do this? 

  JP

    Thanks to all you amateur plumbers out there who responded to my
    original request. My wife will probably not be pleased that I'm
    tackling yet another DIY job, but I'm going to do it anyway.
    
    In any case, where can get all those books and pamplets that you
    guys keep mentioning? I've never seen anything anywhere.
    
    Thanks again for your help.
    
    regards,
    
    Lou

    
     I have a quick question about the pips that have the "fin's" to
    radiate the heat. 
    
    	I live in an old building and the heat never seems to work that
    well.I was looking at the pipe's last night and noticed that the
    fins have 2 sides.What I mean is that there is is a closed side
    and a open side to where I can see the copper pipe.
    
    	 Which way is this supposed to face?? I would think that the
    open end should face up so air can move through the fins and go
    up.The way it is now is the closed edges face up and air can only
    move side to side but are blocked by the wall and the side cover.
    
    	Did the plumber put in in wrong??
    
    				Wayne

    I don't know if it is right, but all the heating pipe I have installed
    or seen installed has the open areas in the vertical plane.  In
    other words, heat rises; it doesn't make too much sense to keep
    it trapped around the pipe with the rolled over edge.
    
    - Mark

    Did anyone see the recent episode of the Bob and Norm show that
    described a fhw system that used plastic pipe in the floor?  I just
    caught the end of the segment.  I'd like to get the name of the
    manufacturer.  Has anyone actually seen this stuff?
    
    The reason is I recently bought a small house of very mixed ancestry
    that has a slab floor and fha heat.  The slab is cold and damp and
    the fha registers are in the ceiling.  The result is about a 10
    degree differential between your head and your toes.
    
    The furnace needs replacing anyway and I intend to build new floors
    so it would fit well with my plans if I could install the heat in
    the floor at the same time.  Seems to me it wouldn't be hard to
    have seperate zones either.
    
    Mike H.

    Just checked the last issue of Fine Homebuilding.  There was one
    source I was able to quickly locate.  Here is the information from
    their ad:
    
    	TWINTRAN (tm)
    	Radiant Floor Heating Hose
    
    	    *Counterflow design
    	    *Oxygen barrier
    	    *Great flexibility
    	    *-50F to +325F rating
    	    *Crushproof
    
    HEATWAY (tm) Systems
    3131 W. Chestnut Expy.
    Springfield, Missouri
    (417) 864-6108
    1-800-255-1996
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    - Mark

    It may look sloppy, but there is a good reason for looping the wire.
    My electrician also looped wires which *I* thought looked sloppy.
    He said that if something ever punctured the wires that we would
    most likely just have to pull the wire down a little farther, cut
    off the puncture and then rewire the (switch, rec, light, etc.).
    I thought it sounded kind of crazy until, guess what.  The sheetrock
    guys put a nail right through a wire that was feeding a threeway
    switch.  Solution?  Just pulled down the extra wire, found the punc-
    ture, rewired, presto!  Easy.  It really makes sense to loop them
    wires.
    
    	Jon

Any ideas on my problem ?

The Central heating in my house is a few years old but works
well , or so I thought  !!  When ever I've checked the radiators
to see if they are hot I've tested the TOP of the radiatator ,
but last night (while painting ) I tested the BOTTOM of the radiatator 
and its stone cold  !!

And its the same with all of the radiatators, hot (very) at the top
but stone cold at the bottom, there is no sharp dividing line
between hot & cold but rather a gradual drop from top -> bottom


Any ideas (please !)

Ta  Peter Bailey

    
    re .0
    
    Have you purged those suckers lately?
    
    They may have air trapped inside, preventing hot water/steam from
    circulating properly.
    
    Steve
    

>    Have you purged those suckers lately?

I thought that an air lock would cause  top = cold, bottom = hot

could this also cause my problem ?


Ta

Peb

    Hot water is less dense than cold water and rises to the top;
    your radiators are probably working just fine.
    

    .3 is correct. the (in a hot water system) hotter water will be
    on the top.  on purging, you cannot purge a system while its hot,
    the best time is before the heating season begins.
    
    a little advice: you don't fix nothing that ain't broke.
    interpreted, if its working leave it alone.
    

    It depends what you mean by stone cold. Sure the hotter water is
    on the top but the temperature on the bottom depends on all sorts
    of things like flow rates and where the entry points and exit points
    for each radiator are. If the system is old then there is always
    the chance that you have some sluge build up which is restricting
    the flow through the lower parts of the radiators. Try the advice
    in .1 first then pull the lot out and start again ! ( or flush it
    next year )
    
    Rod ( bar room plumber )
    

    Just called the company mentioned in .5.  They were very nice and
    are shipping me a complimentry copy of their application manual.
    
    Thanks for the tip Mark.
    
    Mike H.

    I've been letting air out of the bleeder in the basement periodically
    for the last two months, and there's still air in the system.
    
    I took a look at the inlet valve from the water main, and noticed
    that it's turned on, meaning that it should be pressurizing the
    whole system with replacement water at all times.  Is that normal?
     Should this valve remain open? 

>    I've been letting air out of the bleeder in the basement periodically
>    for the last two months, and there's still air in the system.

From a brass cylinder with what looks like a tire valve on top?  If so, 
as long as you leave the little cap loose, it should be bleeding air 
without your assistance.  These seem to be a common point of failure.  
Mine croak off about every two years.
    
>    I took a look at the inlet valve from the water main, and noticed
>    that it's turned on, meaning that it should be pressurizing the
>    whole system with replacement water at all times.  Is that normal?
>     Should this valve remain open? 

Beyond the valve, close to the boiler, you should see a lump in the line
with a post coming out of the top.  Attached to the post is a little
metal toggle.  If you have one of these, it is an automatic filling
mechanism.  The water should be turned on all the time so it can fill 
the system as needed.  If your system doesn't have an automatic filler, 
I don't know the answer.

If your system is like mine and you  want to manually flush the air from
your system, hook a garden hose to the drain spiggot, shut off all the
shutoffs to and from any zones you're not purging, spin the toggle on
the automatic filler clockwise until it's tight (count the number of
turns so you can put it back the way you found it) then open the drain
valve and lift the toggle straight up.  That will let the water come
roaring into your system and push out the air.  If you don't screw down
the toggle, the water won't come in as fast and may not develop enough
force to purge the air.  When the system seems clear of air (stick the 
other end of the hose in a bucket so you can see the air come out) push 
the toggle back to its original position, close the drain valve, and 
then unscrew the toggle to the position you found it.  Remember to turn
on any zones you shut off.  If you have a working bleeder valve, it will
keep the air out by itself from then on, unless you have a leak in the
system. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re air in lines
    
    We went through the purging and replacement of air eliminator valves,
    but to keep air from redeveloping in the system it was necessary
    to install a device called an "air scoop" which sits in the output
    line, has an air eliminator valve on top and the expansion tank
    attached to the bottom.  It seems to be doing its job; no gurgles
    for quite a while now, whereas I used to have to do some minor purging
    every three or four weeks.
    
    pbm
    

    re .16,  i had a new system installed a few years back. it has 
    the air scoop and tank mentioned. with the exception of a few
    times, i've had no noises. as for bleeding a system. the most
    effective method is to bleed at the baseboard. on one end
    you'll find a valve stem, with a screw in the center.
    using a coffee can, catch any water and bleed, if no air
    escapes, usually that section didn't have any. move on to the
    next one.  note..... the best time for this is when the system
    is stone cold.  best time is before the season.
    
    jim.

Re: .17

	Many systems do not have bleeder valves in the baseboards.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    i have a forced steam by gas heating system. it is a brand new
    furnace january of 87. my situation is this: the radiators seem
    to be filling with water not all of them only 4 or 5 of them.
    this is a multi family and there are many radiators all off of
    one furnace. the way i know the radiators are filling with 
    water is because water is being forced out the relief valves.
    anyone with any experience on this or a possible solution to
    this problem?
    
                         thanks in advance-herb
    

I put a note in here not too long ago.  Title something about steam 
heat and noise.

The answer to my knocking noise problem may help you.  I was told that 
knocking was caused by water being trapped.  To get rid of the water:

If it is a one-pipe feed/return unit, make sure the radiator is 
tilted slightly down on the side of the pipe.

If there are two pipes, figure out which is the return (it will get hotter
later than the up-pipe) and make sure the radiator is tilted slightly 
down on the side of the return.

Karen

>                                              -< HELP FORCED WATER! INSTEAD OF STEAM >-
>
>    i have a forced steam by gas heating system. it is a brand new
>    furnace january of 87. my situation is this: the radiators seem
>    to be filling with water not all of them only 4 or 5 of them.
>    this is a multi family and there are many radiators all off of
>    one furnace. the way i know the radiators are filling with 
>    water is because water is being forced out the relief valves.
>    anyone with any experience on this or a possible solution to
>    this problem?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     I have never heard of forced steam.  Assuming you have the ordinary 
kind of steam heat, ...

     Check the glass sight tube on the boiler.  I'll bet it is full.  You 
can get this problem if the washer on the fill valve is shot or you didn't 
close the fill vavle tightly when you last added water.  Its just  like a
leaky faucet, except that the leak slowly fills your steam system  up with
water.  To verify this, you can drain the system until there is  air in the
sight tube, and then watch it over a day or two to see if it fills up by
itself.  If so,  replace the washer on the fill valve. 

    Lets try this One More Time.......thanks for all the help.....Ive
    drained the pipes.....about three times......and I still have what
    sounds like a river running thru...
    
    So let me tell you what and how I did it....
    
    I have a two zone system so I put the hose on one of the pipes....then
    there was this little squarish knob and I turned it on....then right
    under that is a little connection with a screw in the middle....I
    turned it from | to -.......then the water started rushing out and
    when I put the hose to my ear I could hear the air because it made
    a lot of noise......I did this for about five minutes until I didnt
    hear anything then I shut everything off....
    
    I did the same for the other zone..
    
    
    However, when I was done, the pressure valve on the boiler registered
    0.....so thinking something was wrong I opened a water valve....first
    of all, when I follow the pipes from the water pump there is a pipe
    that goes directly into the boiler.....then there is another one
    that goes directly INTO one of the heating pipes....I figured that
    the system automatically gets filled with water from the tank but
    when I saw the zero pressure, I opened the valve leading into the
    heating pipe....I could hear the water rushing in and then I saw
    the pressure go up to around 10 or 12......
    
    The system SEEMED to be quiet for a while, but then the whole thing
    started again....additionally, I found the air scoop along with
    the little screw on top so about every three hours I unscrew it
    and hear a rush of air coming out...
    
    Now my wife is convinced I dont know what Im doing......and she
    might me right......so......
    
    Am I doing this right or what!!!!!!! 
    
    Thanks
    
    Rick

>                ....additionally, I found the air scoop along with
>    the little screw on top so about every three hours I unscrew it
>    and hear a rush of air coming out...

Does the "little screw" look like the cap on a tire valve?  And does it 
seem to be coming out of a (brass) cylinder that is screwed into the top 
of the tank?  If so, then leave it unscrewed all the time.  It will let 
air pass out, but will block water.

    Give that guy a cigar....thats exactly what it looks like.....well,
    I wont be making those stupid trips downstairs anymore....Ill do
    what you say and leave it unscrewed....thanks
    
    Rick

    Another suggestion for the reason for the problem is faulty, missing,
    or incorrectly installed steam traps. Essentially, these valves
    separate the steam and the condensed water in your heating system
    and allows the steam to continue on to the next radiator while allowing
    the consensate to return to your boiler. These should be located
    at the radiator/system low points. I'm not sure if they are used
    in home heating systems, but I have seen them in industrial (large)
    systems. I'll try to find our more about them.
    

    hey rick, one more thing in adition to leaving the cap unscrewed.
    
    1. never (if you can ) bleed a system while its hot, or even warm.
    
    2. leave the water on that leads into the system. you bleed air
       out and the system replaces the air with water. i may have 
       misunderstood what you wrote, but its sounds like this.
    
       sounds as if you shut off the water to the system.
    
    jim
    

    You may just need new valves, they may not be closing properly
    and condensed steam is getting forced out.

    I too read your note to say that you were turning the system inlet
    (water supply) off when you were done. The 'valve' that you mentioned
    is actually a regulator that should MAINTAIN a 10-12 lbs water pressure
    in the line. You should NOT have to turn this off totally EVER.
    It should remain at 10-12 lbs.
    
    Mark
    

    Thanks for those inputs.....makes sense that this valve should always
    be open....its always been closed.....the next time I drain it Ill
    leave it open (as a matter of fact, Ill open it when I get home)
    
    One thing though, what do I have to do now, wait until summer when
    theres no hot water running thru?  And do I just drain it until
    I cant hear any more air?
    
    Thanks
    
    Rick

    .....forget draining anything.....I opened that valve up, bled air
    out of that cap, and everything seems to be working womderful...no
    noise of ANY kind in the pipes......and to think Ive been living
    with this stupid valve closed all this time....
    
    Thanks for all the help
    
    Rick

    there's one more thing.... and its simple. not many folks do it,
    its considered a nuisance. before the heating season, say about
    a month or so, bleed each of the radiators, wheteher you have
    radiators or the copper fin type, there should be a valve
    you can open with a screw driver. bleed off a sufficient amout
    into a coffee can if in 10 seconds you get no air you don't
    have any, close the valve and move onto the next. you begin
    with the closest one to the furnace and move toward the last
    in the loop. in most cases, one or 2 bleedings of this kind
    puts you in good shape for a few years, unless you have to
    drain the system for some reason. At some point in time,
    the expansion tank diaphram will need to be replaced.
    The indicator is noise in the system, bleeding as described
    will help, but will not cure it. Which points you in the 
    direction of the expansion tank.
    
    

    I'm taking a quick poll. For those of you with steam heat, how often
    do you find yourself refilling the boiler during the heating season?
    Once a month? Once a week?
    
    I have an automatic water feed-in to my boiler that gave out at
    the end of the last March. I didn't think the cost of a new one
    (I was quoted $300 to replace the unit) was justified, so I 
    decided to fill the boiler myself when needed. 
    
    Well, I'm finding that I have to fill the boiler once a week. (More
    often during cold spells.) Is this normal, or does this signify
    a potential leak in the boiler? Oh yes, I replaced all the air valves
    recently but saw no noticeable change.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -John-

    It all depends on how much the boiler runs.  At times when it's
    REALLY cold (like the last cople of weeks in NE) I found myself
    filling the boiler once a week.    During milder times, I only have
    to do it every third or so week.
    
    I'm in the basement alot though for laundry, woodworking, getting
    tools, etc.  so filling the boiler isn't that big of a problem.
     In fact, I'll be willing to bet that the low water shutoff has
    never kicked in since I've owned the house.
    
    
    -bill

    
    
    	Real Cold Weather - Once a week
    	Mild weather      - Once a month
    	Summer		  - Never ;^)
    
    Tim
    

    
    Although I think we are writing in the wrong topic, I'll answer
    the question about replenishing the boiler water.
    
    My system is *incredibly* undersized, so I need to fill it
    every couple of days when it's really cold out (the furnace
    doesn't shut off then).  In the summer, probably once a month
    (the boiler heats the hot water).
    
    I recommend that you fill it more often than necessary, because adding
    a lot of cold water at once, can be a strain on the system.  As for
    whether you need the automatic intake, I guess that depends on how long
    your vacations are during the heating season.  Of course you could
    always drain all the water pipes and shut off the heat if you plan to
    be gone for an extended period of time. 
    
    Be sure to check the radiator shut-off valves (down by the intake
    pipe) to make sure that they don't leak.
    
    -tm
                                           

    Finally did the bleeding of the system via the hose/drain method
    this weekend, and came across a question that I haven't been able
    to find the answer to in my furnace literature.  it seems that you
    can set the internal system pressure to whatever you want by adding
    air (via the pressure valve mentioned a couple of replies back),
    or by letting water out of the purge valves.
    
    My question is:  what should the PSI be on the dial for the closed
    system?  12 PSI?  Can't find this spec anywhere.
    
    Thanks.  System is 2 year-old Burnahm 3 zone gas FHW.
    
    Oh yeah - it's nice and quiet now!

    
    Also, should this be a warm reading or cold?  

A very good set of *real* reference books for designing, building
and repairing plumbing, heating, and AC systems are Audel's.

The sets listed below cover every conceivable practical aspect of
engineering these systems. Calculating heat loss, selecting pipe size,
selecting furnances/boilers/burners, circulating pumps, valves, type of
distribution systems, calculating radiator size, baseboard size, repair/
tuning/maintenance, conversions  and so forth. 
The plumbing set covers everything you'll ever need to know about
all the methods, tools, and supplies.

Plenty of understandable tables, layouts, pictures and well written text.
They aren't cheap (about $80 for the two sets below) - but the best
investment a serious DIY can make.

1. Audel (revised)  Plumber and Pipefitters Library
                    3 vol set
                    ISBN 0672-23384-3

2. Audel (revised)  Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning
                    3 vol set
                    ISBN 0672-23380-0

Credit Card Orders:  Macmillian Publishing
                     1-800-257-5755

BTW, the Audel series has several similar quality reference books
for electrical wiring, building construction, woodworking.

Hope this helps,

Lee

    
    My FHW furnace gurgles.  Now, from reading previous notes on
    this subject, I bled the water from the expansion tank but 
    that did not solve the problem.  The last time I had a plumber
    over, he adjusted the water temperature on the furnace.  Did
    he forget to adjust the water pressure?  It seems as though
    the expansion tank is full when the water gets too hot which
    causes the gurgling noise.
    
    What should I do next?

    You may have to bleed down the whole system. Just bleeding the tank
    sometimes is not enough. The tank will remove a good amount
    of air but if you have big air pockets in the system you have
    to bleed the whole system down. Esp. if you hear alot of banging
    and clanging in the FHW pipes. 
    	Adjusting the temp. should not have affected it and the pressure
    (at least on mine) is not really "adjustable",(exept maybe a water
    pressure valve).
    
    Bob

    
    How do you bleed the whole system?

    This is hard to explain here and not all systems are the same but
    the idea is to let water pressure push the air out for you:
       * Shut off electrical switch to furnace.
    	1. shut of water inlet to your furnace.
    	2. shut of water inlet to expansion tank.
    	3. attach garden hose to faucett of the zone you want to drain
    	    and place other end into buckett.
    	4. turn shutoff of the zone off(this should be just below faucett).
    	5. if you have zone valves, manually open the one on the zone.
    	6. turn on water inlet to furnace
        7. turn on faucett to garden hose. This forces water through
            that zone. When all the air is out(water comes out smoothly,
    	    no spitting,or gurgling) that zone is done.
        8. shut off faucett remove hose
        9. repeat for all zones.
    	10. when done turn on expansion tank valve and make sure all
    	     other controls are back to original position before turning
    	     power on.
    
    Disclaimer: This is how to do mine. This is just to give you an
    IDEA of how it's done. Not all systems are the same. Refer to
    qualified person for your particular system.
       
    Bob

    ref .3, Your furnace may have an automatic feeder valve rather than
    just an inlet faucet. Its purpose is to allow water to enter if
    the pressure in the heating system drops below a specific level
    (mine is about 10 psi). It is opened by moving the lever on top,
    but again, your system may be different. Bleeding is a pain, but
    not too difficult to do. Also, if your system has a vent valve at
    the furnace (releases air in system), make sure that the cap that
    covers the bleeder asmy is not on tight, so that air can escape.
    As one who bled his system 3 times in 2 days (that's another story
    though), it can be done by the DIY'er. Also, after you're done,
    let the pressure come back up to normal (usually 10 or 12 psi) and
    then release the feeder valve handle. As the water is heated, it
    will slightly expand, but the pressure should only vary slightly.
    Good luck.
    
    Eric

    I might have missed something in .3 and .4, but neither mentions
    the most important part. You must open the bleed valve on each
    radiator. Do it by zones. Bring a towel (usally can't get a pan
    under the valve). With the system ON, open the valve just enough
    to hear/water escaping. When it stops "spitting" and gets to be
    a steady flow, close the valve. Do the same for the next radiator
    inthe zone. Don't know if it matters which radiator in the loop
    you bleed first, but I usually start with the one closest to the
    boiler. The radiators in my system are all baseboards and require a
    small key for the valve. 
    
    Joe

    I am having a problem with my oil FHW sys. The problem is in the
    controlls.  The boiler is a Burnham the controlls are Honeywell and
    the zone valves are Taco. Last fall I added the third zone. Prior
    to that, I had a two zone sys, and it worked fine. Currently, with
    the three zones, I am getting a rapid on/off switching when the
    sys attempts to start up or shut off. It's like the sys cannot make
    up it's mind.
    
    I have checked the wiring and it looks ok. I know that the third
    zone valve seems to be cycleing on/off every couple of minutes
    even when the thermostat is calling for heat. I am wondering about
    the transformer. Is it supossed to controll the z-valves? How can
    I check it? If I call a service man he will probably just start
    replacing parts untill he hits the right one.
    
    This condition didn't seem to be as noticeable during the last winter.
    I believe it has gotten worse recently. 
    
    Would a wall thermostat, Honeywell, rated at 30v cause this? I noticed
    that the transformer is rated 40v.
    
    Any and all sugestions are welcome.
    

    You might check the water level in the system.  There is probably
    an automatic cut-off when the level gets low, and the on-off problem
    may indicate that you are boiling away all your water.
    
       -Brian
    

    The sys has an automatic fill. I will check it.

    
    If you are using Taco zone valves the thermostats should have a
    heat anticipator adjustment in them and they should be set to .9.
    This controls how long the furnace will run for (as far as calling
    for heat is concerned).
    Also, my system uses a 24 volt transformer to run the Taco valves.
    
    I also ran into a problem where one of my zone valves went bad and
    it did what your symptoms are, i.e., when calling for heat the furnace
    would run for a short time and shut right off again and then turn
    on again. Like it was confused. A new zone valve fix the problem.
    
    hope this helps
    Bob
    

    I suspect that if you added another transformer to the third zone,
    your problem will go away. This was a very similiar problem to my
    water sprinkler system. The original transformer could not handle
    the power to handle the gate valve and the circuit valve. Look at
    the VA (volt-amp) rating; sometimes expressed in watts.
    
    /cal

    My FHW system started doing that a couple of weeks ago. I called
    the service man, after he check out the system he found a zone
    valve arching replaced the top of the valve and everything is back
    to normal
    
    
    Don
    

    
    Here's the possibilities I can think of if its only a problem on
    one zone (solenoid) valve.
    
    	Bad Thermostat or Heat Anticipator
    	Bad Zone Valve
    	Bad Wiring
    
    If the problem comes up across all Zone Valves then I would check
    the Primary Control Integration functions such as:
    
    	Low Temperature Cut off
    	Low Voltage Circuits (Supplies Low Voltage 24v to your Thermostats)
    	Wiring
    	
    I'd like to know what finally solved the problem.
    
    	Joe
    

    I've done some checking.  The transformer is rated 24V 40VA.  The
    sys has an automatic fill that works on pressure, and appears to
    be working ok. The sys is operating @15psi. The heat anticipators
    are all set at .9. I have tried to isolate the problem, and it
    it is only when  the new loop calls for heat. I suspect the zone
    valve. 
    Looks like I'll be buying a new one. (this one's less than 6 mos
    old) I haven't been to Sumerville lumber recently anyway, so, I
    guess this is a good reason.
    If this doesn't work I'll have to have the service man come early
    to do the annual cleaning/tune up.
    

I am thinking of buying a house that comes equiped with wood stove heat and 
electric heat.  I am also thinking of installing a complete oil fired fhw 
system to replace the electric.  I believe the increased savings combined 
with increased house value will make it worth it.  Also, I like this type 
of project and could then at least turn on the heat without cringing.

So my questions are:

Can I put an oil tank outside the house or in the ground?
 It's a raised ranch so using the garage would be a space sacrifice.

What's the restrictions on running the plumbing from the garage to the 
bedrooms above?
 I could box in the tubing, it should be mostly contained along the 
upper outside corners.  Or can I just seal the hole well.

Any other suggestions, recommendations?  I don't need to start this 
immediately.  In fact, if the responses are bad enough, I don't even need 
to buy it!

Thanks,
Craig

    
    RE: .8
    
    As I said in my reply (.3), I have a two zone heat,i.e., two taco
    zone valves with one 24 volt transformer and it works fine.
    
    RE: .0
    It doesn't matter how old your zone valve is, it still can be bad.
    One of mine was defective from the begining and gave the same symtoms
    you are getting, as I mentioned in .3.
    
    Bob

first off, check 1111.38 for the list of notes under heating_oil, 
there is a lot of info in there.  I remember reading a note somewhere 
in here about the placement of the oil tank.

My personal opinion, but if this is brand new, why not go with gas?
you don't have to worry about the tank in your house, or leaking
underground (there must be restictions on this).  Besides, isn't gas
cheaper, or do you have special circumstances? 

    The oil tank can go outside, probably in some kind of box shelter.
    Only problem is in cold weather the oil may get thick and not flow
    very well.  However, with #2 it has to get REAL cold for that to
    be a significant problem.  An oil dealer might be able to tell you
    if it's something to worry about in your area.
    I wouldn't bury the tank - too much potential for undiscovered leaks,
    pollution, and ASTOUNDING cleanup bills later on.  

>>I am thinking of buying a house that comes equiped with wood stove heat and 
>>electric heat.  I am also thinking of installing a complete oil fired fhw 
>>system to replace the electric.  
  
  If you intend to use the wood stove a lot, why not wait and see if you really 
need to use the electric or how much you need to use the electric?


>>                                 I believe the increased savings combined 
>>with increased house value will make it worth it. 

  Not necessarily.  It will really depend on how much/little you use the wood 
stove as well as how well it heats your house.  As far as increased home value, 
I don't know how much you will get back but I seriously doubt it will be 
anywhere near that much.  A heating system in a house is a given.  The type 
depends on personal preference.


>>So my questions are: ...

  These should really be directed at the town's building inspector and fire 
chief. If you want opinions, we've got a lot of them :^)  but the individual 
town will determine whether or not what you want to do is legal.


  Don't misunderstand my responces above.  They are not intended to be negative 
against oil heat.  I have oil heat and like it a lot. I don't know what 
your payback will be because I don't know how well insulated the house is or 
how tight it is so payback may take quite some time.

-Jim

re .1,   I looked in heating_fhw and heating_oil and thought this note 
would add to the topics.

I would JUMP at natural gas but it's not on the street.  It's small and has 
less ventilation required.

How about propane?  The selling realtor said don't go to propane, it's just 
as bad a selling point as electric.  Any opinions?


re .2,   I guess it won't get too thick because I've seen some right on my 
street outside the house.  I wonder if they heat them like an outside water 
pipe?  A building inspector told me underground is ok with proper permits 
but the fire chief handles that.  I'm still calling.  If it's a dumb idea I 
won't do it, even if it's allowed.


re .3,   I still think use savings will add up.  The wood will only really 
be used when I'm there.  Can these good stoves be left on overnight and 
during work?  The away time, even set low, will be significant.

The resale increase must be real also.  The house is currently sitting on 
the market because people are running from the electric heat.  Plus I'm 
hoping to do 90% of the installation myself.  A discount on equipment would 
nice too, any ideas?  

The insulation is ok but not great.  4 inch walls not 6, and cathedral 
ceilings.  And the place is turned 90 degrees from what would be optimum 
for sun.  I can't believe that only 15 years ago there was little concern 
for efficiency.

thanks to all, keep 'em coming.
Craig

>What's the restrictions on running the plumbing from the garage to the 
>bedrooms above?
> I could box in the tubing, it should be mostly contained along the 
>upper outside corners.  Or can I just seal the hole well.

    Do you mean to run the pipes in/on the outside walls, but covered?
    I am the second owner of a house with the heating pipes running
    in the overhang and if I turn the heating down (not off) at night, 
    in the middle of very cold weather the water in the HEATING pipes
    freezes.  I have introduced non-toxic antifreeze (Winter Guard -
    can be bought at Spag's) into the system to prevent that.  I am
    still trying to get to the pipes to better insulate them, but I
    would caution you on exposed heating pipes.
    
    Peter

    re .2
    
    You've GOT to have a backup heating system.  Wood or coal heat by
    itself means that you can never leave the house more than all day
    in the winter without winterizing it.
    
    i.e. Drain all water containers - john,  traps and pipes.
    

    re: .6
    
    Yes, indeed.  50% wood heat is pretty easy.  75% is more work. 
    90% is a LOT more work.  100% assumes you live on a farm with
    your own woodlot and somebody is always home.
    
    My personal experience with wood heat was that the claims for
    "holding a fire" are somewhat exaggerated, if you're being
    practical about it.  Although it *might* be possible to keep
    a fire going for 18 hours in a woodstove by shutting it way down,
    that is a superb way to build up gobs of creosote in an amazingly
    short time.  A woodstove needs to BURN, not smoulder.  For a
    clean chimney, add small amounts of wood, often.  Loading a
    stove up to the top just before you go to bed and then shutting
    the draft way down is not a particularly good idea.  
    Coal is easier to manage, from what I've heard; if you get a
    stove with a storage magazine and a thermostat on the draft,
    and burn really good coal, they don't require much tending.
    But you have to shake it down twice a day, morning and night,
    and add coal, or it will go out and then you have to light it
    again, which is a pain (so I've heard).  

    Here's 2 ideas. 
    1. You should add a new transformer. 
    
    2. Watch your thermostat when it calls for heat. If it's not designed
    for zone-valve use, and, like you say, the t-stat is rated for 30V.
    These TACO zone valves draw quite a bit more current than a circulator
    control relay and if you have the honeywell non zone valve type,
    then you could be burning your anticipator wire with the excessive
    draw. ( of current )  this would be visible with the thermostat
    cover removed, and, depending on the contact type (mercury or contacts)
    you should see some fairly obvious movement once your t-stat calls
    up some heat.  The idea of an overloaded transformer AND an underrated
    thermostat make this scenario highly likely. 
    
    Hope this helps, if it's in time. 
    
    Mike

    
    I'd recommend not installing the tank in the ground. Some towns
    are forcing homeowners to remove tanks from the ground because
    of pollution problems.
    
    If you install the tank outside, be sure to run a mixture of
    #2 and #1(Kerosene) in the cold months to ensure your supply
    line doesn't sludge up. The extra expense for this fuel can
    be considered insurance  for the months of January and February.
    Just one service call can wipe out all the savings from sticking
    with #2 fuel.
    
    Also, I'd highly recommend not installing the system yourself
    because unless you know what your doing, you can burn down
    your house very easily. The oil burner people require many hours
    of experience and training before they install a complete system.
    Oil Burners are deceiving, they look extremely low tech, but there
    are many things going in there, that the average person is unaware
    of. In many cases, troubleshooting a VAX is simpler that
    troubleshooting a burner system. A lot of people fool with burner
    systems because of its looks. Don't get fooled get the required
    training or contract with someone knowledgeable. 
                                                     
    Joe

    I replaced the suspect zone valve and the symptoms subsided but
    did not disappear. The chattering seemed to go away.
    
    At this point, the thermostat was calling for heat, the zone valve 
    was open, the boiler temp was above the low setting. The circulator 
    should have been pumpimg but it wasn't.
    
    I shut everything down at the panel, and cleaned the contacts
    on the relay's. Turned the sys on, and everything was working
    fine.
    
    I had the service man come in for the annual tune up. While he was
    there and I told him what was happening. So he checked out the sys 
    and it seems to be ok, for now. 
                          
    BTW The Taco valve box shows a 24v transformer will run up to three
    valves. (This is what I have). The thermostat is  rated up to 30v.
    TACO has a new design valve. The switch has been redesigned, and
    the cover is now gold, not green. Supposed to be interchangeble
    with the old valve. It worked fine with my set up.
    
    
           

    I believe that in my town you would have to convince the planning
    board that you could not store your fuel anywhere else but underground,
    and then they would make you Incase it in cement. (In case it leaked)
    
     

    We have multizone forced hot water heat. That is, there are four pipe
    loops through various parts of the house, they all fan out from the
    output side of the common boiler, and they all go through individual
    pumps and rejoin at the entrance to the common boiler. 
    
    The difficulty is that when any zone starts running, some heat ends
    up going through each of the other zones. In particular, some heat
    goes through the upstairs zone, whose first station is our bedroom.
    Thus heating any part of the house tends to warm up the bedroom,
    to our annoyance and discomfort. 
    
    I assume that the unwanted heat transfer is just due to the momentum
    of the water in the active loop pushing the water in the other loops
    past their stopped pumps. ( I assume they are centrifugal pumps,
    not cylinder pumps. ) 
    
    I have thought of two possible cures. One would be to put a solenoid
    valve in the upstairs loop that only opened when its own pump was
    running. However, I am skeptical about introducing more failure
    modes into the system. I am not sure how long a solenoid valve would
    last in this application.
    
    A second possibility would be to reverse the ends of the upstairs
    loop, so that the extra heat goes into the room at the other end
    of the loop, where it would be less annoying. 
    
    One other thing that occurs to me to wonder about is: Does the hot
    water getting past the stopped pump mean that it is almost worn
    out and eroded?
    
    Does anyone have any other ideas, data, or experience in this space?
    

I had a similar experience documented somewhere else in this file.  The 
problem was a sticky check valve in the system (this seems like my day 
to talk check valve.)  The test for the problem is to turn on the heat 
in another zone and feel the pipes to the bedroom loop.  

This gets a little hard to expain, but it's an easy concept.  Think of 
the heating loop as being "U" shaped.  At one end of the U is the pump. 
Normally, the pump sucks water into the U from the other end, and 
discharges it back into the boiler.  At the other end of the U is a 
check valve that makes sure the water only goes in that direction.  If 
the valve fails, then the pressure from the other zone's pump will force 
water to circulat BACKWARD through the system.  The way you tell if 
that's happening is to feel the pipes a few feet from the boiler.  If 
the pipe going to the pump gets warm before the pipe coming from the 
boiler, then that's the problem.

Fortunately it's easy to fix.  The check valve has a screw in the top.
Note the screw's original position, unscrew it, which lets the check
flap wide open, then run the zone for a while.  If you're lucky like me,
the problem is a piece of crud keeping the check from seating, and
running the system for a little while (half an hour, say) will clear it.
Put the screw back to its original position, and everything is cool (so
to speak.) 

				Hope it helps,
				>>>==>PStJTT

	In the 15 years that I was doing boiler work, I never replaced
a defective flo-check valve.  That's not to say I never replaced a flo-check 
valve either.  The primary purpose of the flo-check valve is to stop the 
gravity flow of water from a hot boiler to the cool water in the baseboard.
This would result in an over-heating of the house after the boiler and
circulator have shut down.  This problem which always looks like a flo-check 
valve problem usually turns out to be air in the system.  It sounds far 
fetched but here is what happens.  Your boiler already has some form of 
expansion tank.  This tank can be of the old flavor, which is a 20 gallon tank
suspended between the floor joist.  This tank is initially filled with air at 
which time the valve connecting the boiler to the tank is opened.  When the 
boiler water heats up, the air is compressed in the tank.  The newer type 
expansion tank contains a much smaller tank that has a diaphragm.  On one side 
of the rubber diaphragm is boiler water and on the other is compressed air.

	Now lets assume that the expansion into the tank is unable to occur.  
This would be the case if the old style expansion tank was filled with water 
instead of water and air.  In the newer style expansion tank, the problem could 
be that there is too much pressure and therefore the rubber diaphragm is unable
to compress further.  The boiler water is now heating up and expanding.  It
must be able to expand somewhere.  If there is air in the upstairs zones then
that is where the expansion will take place.  The hot boiler water will start
to heat up some sections of the baseboard.

	Another possible cause is that the boiler temperature is so high that
the water boils past the check valve. If that is the case, turn the high limit
down.

	I am assuming that the system worked properly at one time.  This is not
always a valid assumption.  I have had problems with some brass check valves.
These units do not have the heavy flow-stopper that the cast iron units contain
and therefore are more susceptible to these problems.

	My suggestion is to drain the expansion tank if you have the older
style tank.  Adjust the water pressure in the system according to the height
above the boiler that the water must reach.  Finally, you should bleed all the
zones.

Bill 

    I am installing a complete FHW over oil system.  One contractor
    has proposed a system with components that are all imported from
    Europe.  Has anyone had experience with any of these products:
    
    BOILER - Pensotti, an "S" designed boiler; cast iron.
    
    BURNER - Riello.  This was favorably reported on in 1439.22.  Any
    other experiece?
    
    BASEBOARD CONVECTOR - Spirotherm, a Dutch product which utilizes
    the Spirotube heat exchanger, a tube around which copper spirals
    are wound.  Claims to have quicker response than conventional radiators
    and also heat with water at a low temperature.
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Erick

	When there is no advantage to buying foreign goods..then don't.
That is clearly the case here.  U.S. manufacturers make some of the
best heating system products you can buy.

	My suggestions would be.

		Boiler - Weil McLean cast iron boiler.  They have a long
			 and proven track record.

		Burner - Beckett high speed retention head burner.  They
			 too have a good record.

		Baseboard - I have always been interested in the quality
			    of the baseboard case.  As far as efficiency
			    goes, almost all of the units that I have
			    seen, press aluminum squares on 3/4" copper
			    pipe.  The heat transfer seems to work just
			    fine.

	I would avoid the Riello burner at any cost.  Riello uses non-standard
parts.  By parts I mean ignition transformer, motor, solenoid, electrodes and
controls.  These are parts that will need servicing on those snowy January
nights.  When I was doing oil burner servicing for a living, I knew servicemen
that kept a spare Riello in their truck for parts.  This was a few years back
when getting parts for the Riello was a problem.  I'm not sure if this is still
as big of a problem.  No matter what happened to a burner I was always able to
give my customer heat...I think Riello could snap my record.

Bill Warren

    While I agree that there is no reason to buy foreign when there
    is no advantage, there is a good reason in the case of Riello.
    The parts availability situation seems to be at least as good
    as teh more common Carlin or Beckett products.  Here in southern
    NH/northern Mass, the distributor is Whaleco in Portsmouth NH,
    who also operates retail outfits named Callahan and Busfield
    which cover the coastal area west to around Haverhill / Salem NH.
    
    Modern boilers, on the other hand, whether domestic or foreign,
    tend to be junk.  Weil-McLain is one of the few cast iron products
    remaining on the market.  The life of the newer stuff can be as
    short as seven years; Weil-McLain (or any cast iron) should last
    20 - 25 years.
    
    Happy heating.
    
    pbm
    

>    While I agree that there is no reason to buy foreign when there
>    is no advantage, there is a good reason in the case of Riello.

Did you mention what it was?  All I saw was that the parts supply is no 
worse than other brands.  Surely that's not the good reason?

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I guess I assumed that the high efficiency of the Riello was
    known from earlier notes.  In the past, the part-supply
    criticism was valid; today, it doesn't appear to be.
    
    pbm
    

    Define "efficiency".  I tend to be wary of claims of efficiency.
    The laws of thermodynamics put an upper limit on how efficient
    a boiler and oil burner can be, and it's somewhere around 86%.
    Riello et al are undoubtedly efficient, and perhaps slightly
    more so than others than are available, but a good Beckett or
    Carlin burner, and a Weil-Mclain boiler, will be in that range
    too.  
    Riello is definitely a good burner, but I think the claims tend
    to be a bit overblown.  Modern American-made stuff is very good
    too.

    The reason why LOW PRESSURE burners are obsolete is beacause every
    design was different and forced the oil burner technician to carry
    different parts and learn totally different systems.
    
    HIGH Presssure burners (99% of Installations Today) use standard
    parts (oil pumps,transformers,electrodes) and be interchanged
    or adapted to fit many different vendors. However along come
    vendors such as Reillo which is starting to put the technician
    in the Low Pressure Environment again. Oil burner companies
    are shooting themselves in the foot by installing non-standard
    products. Stick to the newer Carlin/Beckett burners and you
    like the efficiency and reliability. I also disagree that the
    newer boilers (American Made) are junk. Parts may be readily
    available for Reillo but as long as the Heating Companies have
    to stock more flavors, the cost of inventory goes up which the
    consumer will eventually pay for. In this case, American products
    are just as good (if not better) than European imports. 
    
    Joe
    
      

    I had a Riello burner from May, 1979 to April of 1987. It worked
    very well until it seized up on me. Parts were not immediately
    available to fix it, and of course it broke down in the evening.
    The next morning, the heating company installed a Beckett burner
    which had the same efficentcy rating as the Riello. The only difference
    was that the Beckett was a little noisier. Parts are more readily
    accessable for the Beckett (American Made) and that is why I changed
    to it. It got very cold with no heat in the house overnight. 
    
    Remember that when you make you decision on which burner you choose.
    
    
    Dave
     

    I'd buy what works well together... I installed an ULTIMATE PLUS
    boiler (made in good old USA in NATICK MASS.) that was packaged
    with a Beckett Turbo burner, that has a air inlet shutoff to prevent
    cool air entering the boiler when the unit is not running. This
    air inlet shutter is built into the burner by beckett, and works
    by centrifigul force. (IE it's simple and reliable).  This is a
    pressure fired CAST IRON boiler. It's AFUE by the DOE is rated at
    87% for the model that I have.  When the plumber and oil burner
    tech had it installed and were setting it up they were rather amazed
    at what they saw, and I quote   " I could not believe the efficentcy
    readings I am getting there better than 89%". " " I have never seen
    this on any boiler I have ever worked on to date. " Look at this,
    the boiler has been running for over an hour and I can still place
    my hand on the smoke stake 6 inches from the boiler and leave it
    there....
    
     I have had this since the house was new in 1985... It's easy to
    clean and service (as stated by another oil burner service) and
    parts are readily available.  To round it off I installed a AMTROL
    boiler mate for hot water with SLANT FIN baseboards. My kids contantly
    use the baseboards for a step stool to look out the windows and
    they show now signs of bending.
    
    
    Am I a happy customer of this combo???? You bet
    
    
    						Dave
    

    
    
    	I had a problem recently with my water heater/furnace, it was
    	leaking out of the pressure valve on top. I replaced the pressure
    	valve and drained the expansion tank above. When I turned the
    	water back on the pressure built up to 30+ lbs. according to
    	the gauge. I attached a garden hose to the expansion tank and
    	ran it out the cellar, then opened the valve on the expansion
    	tank a little, the result is that the pressure is down to about
    	20lbs (ideally it should be about 12)...anyway has anyone had
    	this problem? what is causing it?
    
    
    					Thanks
    					Bob
    

    
    I had a similar problem with mine except that the pressure was too
    low. It turned out to be the pressure regulator valve on the water
    inlet was stuck(rusted) shut. A new valve solved the problem. I
    don't know if a bad valve could cause the pressure to be high but
    maybe you should check it.    
    
    Good Luck,
    Bob
    

    A defective fill valve, could indeed cause high pressure if it was
    defective (mine did just that). An easy way to check is to drain
    the pressure off the furnace till the guage is below 12 psi (have
    the feed line shutoff valve-not the regulated feed valve-closed
    completely). Now open the feed line shutoff valve and let the regulated
    feed valve repressurize the furnace. It should shut off somewhere
    around its rated pressure. If not, the valve is probably defective
    and should be replaced. If you have to do plumbing work to replace
    it, it could be the time to put a shutoff valve on BOTH sides of
    the regulated feed valve, so if it ever needs service again, you
    won't have to drain the furnace.
    
    Eric

    I installed an H.B. Smith, cast iron boiler in 1986 and am happy
    with it. It came packaged with a Carlin burner which seems to function
    beautifully. What I have found out was that no all service people
    know what there doing. I had one service person from Whaleco come
    perform the initial adjustments and he messed it up so bad that
    I was getting alot of smoke and rumbling during startup. I called
    them back and asked that they send another service person who knows
    what he's doing, they did but then tried to charge me for the two
    separate service charges. Later that year I switched to Lordon oil
    and had them come in because the boiler had some trouble starting
    again and he changed just about every part on the burner and handed
    me a fat bill. I know alittle about FHW systems so I decided to
    check things out myself. It turns out that the only thing that was
    wrong was the filter needed changing and the CADs eye had some dust
    on it. I brought all the parts back to Lordon and they appologized
    and deducted all the charges. I found out later that good oil men
    are tough to come buy and as a result there are alot of oil service
    people who are basically just part changers that keep changing parts
    until the thing starts working again. Lately I've been reading up
    on boiler service and checking with some friends who are knowledgeable
    about heating systems and plan to start doing the routine maintenance
    work myself. The bottom line is even though you nay get the best
    boiler and burner available, you can have problems if the people
    working on this system aren't properly trained. So if you have a
    good boiler service person now, stick with him or her and stay away
    from non-standard systems which may throw a curve ball at whomever
    is going to have to work on it.
    
    Bill D.
    

    There are 3 possible causes for excess pressure that I know of.
    This assumes that all your boiler valves are opened like they should
    be.
    
    		1. Defective Water Feed Pressure Regulating Valve - This valve
    	 	   reduces the street pressure to the normal operating
    		   pressure for your boiler (12-20 LBS)
    
    		2. Leaking Expansion Tank - Tank fills up with water
                   and doesn't allow air expansion to take place
    
    		3. Leaking Domestic Hot water coil. Coil leaks which
    		   allows water into your boiler water which causes
    		   over pressure.
    
    	Out of all of these, # 1 is the cheapest thing to replace or
    	rebuild. 
    
    	
    

    As I've said previously in this notes file:
    
    	HEATING SYSTEM problems can be more complex than troubleshooting
    	VAX systems. Once you find a good heating person try to stick
    	with him/her. The New England labor shortage hasn't helped the
    	situation out either. 
    
    	Joe 

    This may be a bit late, but have you considered not lowering the
    thermostat so low at night.  You may be expending as much energy
    getting the heat back up in the morning as you would have had you
    left it at say 65 all night.  I may be wrong, but it seems to make
    sense.
    
    Ed..
    

    We had a similar problem with our water heater this spring.  I
    had the repairman look at it, and he said,"Since the pressure
    release valve went, it means you'll have to replace the tank."
    I didn't believe him, and was right.  Part of the problem was
    that the steam control valve was stuck (it was a mechanical
    valve and not an electrical one.)  Quite simply, the heater
    didn't shut off, so the water got much to hot, and of course
    the pressure built up and blew open the release valve.
    

    No, you don't want an oversize boiler.  It will hurt on efficiency.
    The system is most efficient when it can run for long periods of
    time; short cycling is very inefficient.  
    What you want is a boiler of a size such that it will run continuously
    on the coldest day of the year, and maintain a comfortable house
    temperature.  
    Obviously, there's a considerable amount of guessing one needs to
    do because heat loss from a house is pretty complicated, and you 
    don't want to underestimate boiler size, so virtually all boilers
    that are installed are oversize.
    You can get some variation in heating capacity by changing the nozzle
    size in the burner, but there's a limit to how much you can do there.
    The boiler is set up to be most efficient with a particular nozzle
    size, and if there's too much of a deviation the efficiency of the
    boiler goes down.
    Exactly how much of an efficiency hit you take with an oversize
    boiler or a nozzle size that is at great variance with the optimum
    design size, I don't know.  It will WORK okay, and you won't notice
    any problems; a plumber could get away with putting in grossly
    mismatched boilers for years and never have a problem or a complaint, 
    but that doesn't necessarily mean they've been good installations
    from an efficiency standpoint.
    The heat-loss formulas ought to be available someplace.  It might
    be worth your while to look them up and do the calculations yourself.
    I suspect that if you do the research and calculations, you'll
    know more about heat loss than most of the people who install 
    boilers...at least more than some of the clowns you've been talking 
    to.
    See what kind of numbers contractor #5 comes up with, it sounds as
    though he's at least going to do the math.  Realize though, there
    is no exact answer to this.  The best that the heat loss calculation
    can be is a semi-educated guess.  If you have a lot of south-facing
    glass, the house may actually be almost self-heating in the daytime.
    If you have a lot of north-facing glass, you might need a bigger boiler
    than the estimate calls for.
    No ideas about relative boiler quality, sorry.

    -.1 is right on when it comes to sizing the boiler.  Too much boiler
    can be almost as inefficient as not enough boiler.
    
    I'd like to know what the "infamous" nipples are all about too!
    
    

     I have had Burnham boilers in my last two homes and my present
    one, and never had any problems. The one in my first house, a 1890
    victorian replaced a very large clunker that was so ineffiecent
    (ate losts of oil). It was installed before I bought the house
    so I don't know if it was sized properly. But it never had a problem
    heating up those old cast iron radiators. My second house I converted
    from electric to gas, and put in a Burnham boiler, I oversized
    it so I could use the furnace to heat my downstairs rooms someday
    when I'm ready. I had the boiler wired for a third zone downstairs,
    (I.E. Thermostat and circulator, and all associated plumbing) 
    upstatied had two zones. Now to say that I sized the house is an
    over exageration, my father in law was plumber so he showed me what
    to do and I would do it, and learned a great deal. What he did was
    give our room measurements to the local supply house, where they
    have a guru of sorts that calculates the actual boiler needed, and
    tells the plumber what he need for baseboard etc. Since you have
    baseboard I would assume that it must be a close guess process but
    the guy at the supply house would be extremly close. As for valves
    on both sides of the circulators any plumber that was doing a quality
    plumbing job and not cutting corners would do that. It also makes
    it easy for the next person to replace the circulator should it
    die. Cement pads are great for wet basements or possible wet
    basements were you want the boiler above were you might get some
    water that would put out a pilot, or if you have a gravel basement
    that you need the boiler to sit on a level pad. In my new house
    I dont have a cement pad the burnham unit sits on the cement floor.
    Last two, one on a pad and one on blocks, both were gas fired, which
    I prefer less maintainence. If you want to read more about heating
    principles and calulation methods I would reccommend a series of
    books by AUDEL press HEATING AND COOLING LIBRARY. I have vols 2
    and 3 which cover air cond and heat you can call 1-800-257-5755
    to get a list of the books and order them direct with a charge card
    number.      good luck
    

    I've looked through all the boiler/furnace notes and I didn't see this
    name mentioned ...

    A quick background.  I'm thinking of replacing my present oil-fired FHW
    boiler.  It's a Waltham unit, about 30 years old.  I'm told it's a bizarre
    design (flue gases forced out the bottom, or something like that).  My oil
    man has replaced various parts now and then, but overall it has served us
    well for the ten years we've been in the house.  

    Why would I want to replace it?  First, I'm presently remodeling a large
    second-floor bedroom.  I ripped out all of the original baseboard.  So it
    needs to be replaced.  I'd also like to zone off the upstairs while I'm at
    it (the  whole  house is  one zone now).  I'm not  really  interested in
    tackling this myself.  Given that I would hire someone to do it, and given
    that it's already a fair amount of work,  I thought now might also be a
    good time to consider an entire boiler replacement.  The age of the boiler
    alone isn't enough reason to replace, I suppose, especially since it works,
    but it *is* 30 years old.  It might serve several more years, but it might
    not either.

    We think we'll be in the house for another few years.  I'll save fuel $'s
    while we're there if I replace now.  We've averaged 748 gallons/year since
    we moved in ten years ago.  I've slowly been insulating (it's an old house
    and there was NO insulation when we moved in), and we've actually averaged
    slightly under 600 gal/year for the last few years.  But we also keep it
    COOL in winter.

    Consumer  Reports  claims you can  figure about a 55% AGUE (annual fuel
    utilization efficiency -- the important number as previously noted) for an
    oil-fired boiler older than 15 years.  Clearly the new boiler should use
    less oil, I'd guess 100 to 150 gal/year less than I'm using now.  At that
    rate, it'll be a long time to pay for the new one.  But the old one will
    probably  die long  before that.  And besides, I prefer to look at it as
    keeping more comfortable for the same amount of oil.

    I'm also very concerned about resale value and appeal.  It's an old house.
    I've made lots of improvements but there are lots more that could be made.
    A new boiler would resolve at least that issue.  Not to mention that we'd
    enjoy the additional warmth until we move.

    Anyway, I've received estimates from my oil man and my plumber (I trust
    both of them).  The plumber would install a Burnham or a Peerless -- he
    likes both, same price for either, would be my choice.  The oil man thinks
    Burnham is ok but prefers Peerless -- not sure why.  The estimates were
    for  complete boiler  replacement,  removal of the old one, adding the
    second zone  (using my present  circulator),  and installation of new
    baseboards (about 34 foot) and thermostat in the upstairs bedroom.

    The plumber  verbally  estimated  $4K  worst case. The oil man formally
    proposed $3575.  $2650 of that was for the new boiler and removal of the
    old.  BTW, new  baseboards  upstairs,  adding the  second zone, and
    replacement of yet more parts on the present boiler would come to around
    $900.  That is, I'm stuck for about $900 already, even if I don't replace
    the boiler.

    I need (and want) tankless hot water, and I need about 100K BTU net (so he
    told me). (We've never had a hot water problem with the present tankless.)
    Between conversations with the oil man and the spec he left,  here are the
    highlights of the Peerless boiler:

	o  Wet-based cast iron.
	o  121K BTU/hr capacity, 105K net, at 1.00 gal/hr oil inlet
              (can be reduced to as low as 0.75 gal/hr with smaller nozzle).
	o  85.3%  AFUE seasonal efficiency.
	o  Beckett burner.
	o  5 gal/min tankless.
	o  20 yr warranty on the boiler, 1 yr everything else.

    The oil man's price seems reasonable for the work involved.  At least,
    I think it does.  I don't think I could get it a lot cheaper and I'd
    prefer him to do it since he'll be the one that services and maintains it.

    My question is: has anyone heard of Peerless?  They're based in Boyertown,
    PA, have been in business since 1908.  It looks efficient yet conventional
    (so it  should be  easy to  clean/maintain, and parts  should be  readily
    available).  It looks pretty good to me but then, until I read some of the
    previous notes, I didn't even know the difference between a furnace and a
    boiler!

    Thanks for any and all comments.

    bryan

re < Note 2526.0 by LEDS::WALTERS "Reading burned-up books..." >

  In about 2 weeks, I'm having a Peerless GAS boiler installed in my house.
My contractor recommended them over others, not sure who the others were.


  FWIW, my thoughts on your boiler replacement plans are:

                 IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.

  Has your oil serviceman examined the system and recommended it be replaced?
Even this alone might not be cause for replacement, if the serviceman just
needs the business.  

  Unless you've had some "early warning signs" that the system has reached the
end or the line, I'd keep getting it cleaned and serviced regularly and keep
it.

  Also, I don't think the fact that a house has a new heating system will
increase the value of the house by the amount costs you for the new system.
My feeling is that it's EXPECTED that a house have an adequate heating plant.

Just my $0.02

Steve

>< Note 2526.0 by LEDS::WALTERS "Reading burned-up books..." >
>                         -< Peerless oil/FHW boilers? >-
>
>    I've looked through all the boiler/furnace notes and I didn't see this
>    name mentioned ...
    
    GOTO Note 2332.4
    
    -tm
    
    

    RE .1 -- Both the plumber and oil man have looked at the present boiler
    and told me there's nothing really wrong with it.  It's simply old and
    undoubtedly has a low seasonal efficiency.  It may last five years, or
    five months.  But it's living on borrowed time.  Many Waltham's go about
    this age, according to them, but they've seen them last longer too.

    They both agree that I'm not doing bad on fuel with this one.  They too
    point out we could be more comfortable for the same amount of oil.

    My impression is that there are no "early warning signs".  One day you
    walk down into your basement and it's sprung a leak.  Then it has to be
    done.  Are there such signs?  It seems I have to put a couple of hundred
    dollars into it every couple of years.  A new boiler will require
    maintainance too, but when should I bite the bullet and stop pouring
    money into the old one?

    Neither the plumber nor the oil man  have pressured  me in the least.
    Each knows I've talked to the other.  I don't think either of them care
    if the other guy does it, or if I don't do it at all.  They both have
    more than enough work.  One of them will get the job of reinstalling
    the baseboard and adding the second zone, and they just figured they
    could do the boiler at the same time *if* that's what I wanted.

    I agree it's expected that a house have a heating plant.  But not
    necessarily an "adequate" one.  I for one would consider the cost of
    a new boiler when making an offer on a house with an old boiler that
    could die at any time.

    Thanks for the input.  I was wondering if I should buy a Peerless,
    but I admit I'm not convinced I should buy anything at all.

    RE .2 -- My apologies.  I read  the notes  keyworded  HEATING_FHW.
    Note 2332 is keyworded HEATING_OIL.  I should have read those as well.

    Can someone explain the interactions of the various settings on
    an aquastat? This is on a forced hot water boiler, with tankless
    hot water. How do the settings affect performance? Efficiency? etc.
    
    The controls mine have are
    
    HI temp (currently set at 190)
    LO temp (currently set at 160)
    DIFF (currently set at 10)
    
    The writing on the aquastat says the LO should be 20 degress less
    than the HI. The DIFF runs from 10-25.
    
    Here is my understanding: HI temp controls when the oil burner shuts
    off. LO temp is when power to the circulator motors is shut off.
    And, I guess DIFF is when the burner starts to turn after dropping
    below HI?
    
    I don't understand how these settings interact with the tankless
    hot water (although I guess the sensor really measures the water
    temperature in the hot water tank).
    
    Also, I notice that often it seems like when the thermstat calls
    for heat, the relay box clicks on, and this often starts the burner.
    (Maybe it only starts it if the temperature of the water is below
    HI - DIFF?)
    
    What are "good" settings for these, and how can one adjust them
    to meet various requirements? (such as summer vs. winter - in summer
    I want the furnance to run as little as possible, but still want
    hot water quickly when I get into the shower! In winter, I'd like
    the rooms to heat up faster from the temperature setback I set during
    the day (provided, of course, the overall efficiency makes it worth
    the setback).
    
    I hope this hasn't been discussed in detail elsewhere ... If so,
    please point.

    re: .0
    
    I asked my furnace company about this, and this is what they told
    me:
    
    How you described LO/HI temp is accurate.  However, they said something
    about the furnace running up to high temp whenever the thermostats
    called for heat.  Low is the minimum temp of the hot water that
    you want in the house.  They told me not to touch DIFF, so I don't
    (at the time, they explained what it did, but I forgot).
    
    In any case, if you're not running the thermostats (i.e. in summer), the
    LOW temp setting is the key.  The furnace company told me to turn this
    down in the summer (to save money).  I set mine to 140 cuz' that's what
    the dishwasher needs. In the winter, I raise LOW back up to 160 (HIGH
    is set to 190 in my house).

    
    To my knowledge, I only have one temperature setting on my boiler/hot
    water heater.  Since my boiler makes steam, I assume that the higher
    setting is not used on a steam boiler (it would be pretty silly
    to have a steam boiler shut off at 190, wouldn't it ;^)
    
    I keep the setting at 165 in the summer, and 180 in the winter.
    At those settings, two showers can run at the same time with no
    lack of hot water.
    
    -tm
    

This is something that I have been jiggering with just this week.
I still don't have a handle on it completely.
We just bought a house with seperate oil burners for the heat and
hot water.  Our hot water seemed way too hot, tending to scald when doing
the dishes.  (Of course we are not used to really *hot* water, our old
place had a pretty anemic heating system.)
I did not notice a DIFF knob, which probably makes sense, since
out hot water burner does not have to deal with keeping two
things hot at once.  I am confused because I turned down the HI and LO
settings, but this did not seem to change our water temperature
any.  (I guess its time to use a thermometer at the tap.)
Still I've got both adjustments as low as they will go (120/140)
The water sure doesn't feel that cool.  And yet the water seems
to be maintained at a constant temp, would the aquastat just be skewed?

    re: .4
    
    Sounds good. That implies in the summer you might want to turn down
    HI (and possibly increase DIFF), since you are only interested in
    hot water?
    
    Say, HI = 160, LO = 140 (130?) DIFF=10,15?
    
    Note that I don't need 140 degree hot water for the dishwasher -
    it has an electric heater (question is, whats more efficient? The
    heater for the dishwasher, or the boiler always keeping the water
    hot? Probably the former.
    
    Thus, my only need for hot water is for showers for just 2 adults.
    
    But, even in winter, DIFF=10 seems conservativately low (I'd be
    inclined to set it to 15 or 20, and adjust LO accordingly).

     I just recently or I should say I am in the process of converting
    to FHW. The sizing that needs to be done requires more than just
    room size. You must include number and size of windows, type of
    construction (2x4 or 2x4), R values of insulation in the walls and
    ceilings and how many walls in each room are exterior walls. My
    brother gave me a guide that his Heating contractor friend's use.
    I calculated it my self and then I took my floor plan with all the
    above information to Goulet's Plumbing and Heating in Manchester
    and they sized the system as well as calculate the number of feet
    of baseboard that should be in each room. This is very important
    too. There is no charge for this service.
    
     If you have not started this yet it would be good to compare what
    the contractor says against the supply house. Also, be careful of
    the boiler you buy most contractor's push the boiler that will give
    them the best trip at the end of the year if they sell a certain
    number of them. Burnham is a good name but check to see if they
    have had any problems recently. I have noticed a lot of contractor's
    pushing Burnham. Stay with a good name ( Burnham, Weil Mclaine,
    Teledyne-lars) boiler to prevent any headaches 5-10 years from now.
    
    Good luck!

    re:.8
    
     He can install everything himself and then bring in an
    qualified installer to setup and optimize the burner.
    There is no reason to pay the rediculous labor costs for
    someone to solder the pipes and install the baseboards.
    He should talk to someone that knows what there doing before
    doing this, too. I agree a trained person should install the
    boiler. I am doing it myself and it is a lot of fun especially
    when you realize that you are saving yourself about $2k.

Hey this notes still alive!

RE -.1:  I have an expert handy.  My dad has worked in hvac for about 50 
years.  He's now retired and would just love the opportunity to help plan 
and advise on a job like this.

RE all:  I ended up worse off than before; I bought a house with electric 
only.  There are 2 fireplaces, one in the basement and one above.  So my 
plan now is to get a coal stove in the basement and see how this winter 
goes.  
         I'm still wondering about a real heating system.  As one ponders 
these plans they have a way of becoming grandiose.  How about this, an oil
fired FHA for the first floor with an auxilary coal stove somehow cobbed
into the the FHA ducts.  AC could also be pumped in there someday.  The 2nd 
floor could remain electric unless I could find a way to get ducts up 
there.  Would I have to sacrifice the flue in the basement to the oil fired 
burner?  Any other way to vent a burner?  BTW, can I somehow tap into the
flue above the fireplace?  
         The more basic approach is to bag the AC idea and put an oil fired
FHW in the basement flue with extra zones planned for the upstairs in the
future. 
         Anyone got a good coal stove for sale?  It's starting to get nippy 
out there.

Craig

I have a three zone FHW system with separate circulator pumps.
The motor on one of the pumps is bad.  I discovered late last winter
that it would sometimes seize and not turn the pump.  The pump wasn't
binding, I could turn the shaft with my hand.
I've removed the motor, and by wiring it standalone, I find it will
sometimes not fully "kick in" when power is applied.

Are these motors repairable?  How much would a new one be?

If I dismantle it, can I expect to find some little connector
that's not clicking into place and fix it?
This motor is different from the other two I have.
I can't really tell if it's the third one to fail, or if this one has
failed before.  The house and the whol;e system are less than 20 years old.

- tom powers]

    Hi, Tom.
    You may find a starting relay in the brush-end of the motor that
    could be the culprit. The relay functions under centrifugal force;
    as the motor spins up to speed, the centrifugal force of the turning
    shaft causes the contacts to open, cutting the starting winding
    out of the picture. If this relay stuck shut, the starting winding
    would never be de-energized and the result would be a sluggish,
    slow spin. This relay, if present, would be centrally located just
    at the end of the shaft of the armature, and the entire mechanism
    surrounds the shaft. 
    
    If it's simple, and that's the fix, then fine... If you have gunked-up
    bearings, then consider the small cost of a new cartridge circulator
    (mfg. by TACO) as a better alternative to maintaining a power-wasting
    older large-motored pump. The older motors just waste a lot of power,
    and the TACO circulators are real mizerly; merely consuming the
    power of a 75-watt light bulb. My friend recently swapped a large
    pump out in favor of the cartridge-style pump and found that the
    flanges matched from his old pump's mount to the new pump. There
    was a 1/2" deficit in pump flange-to-flange clearance, but that
    was fixed by a "minor" plumbing adjustment. 
    
    You'll save money later if you pay now. Going prices for new TACOs
    are in the $65 to $75 range if you're a smooth shopper. Spags had
    them last year at $65, and I just bought one elsewhere this month
    for $65. (Londonderry, NH)
    
    Mike

Yes, Yes.  Don't waste your time trying to fix the old motor pump.

Spags has the Taco F007 cartridge circulator for 63 bucks.
I bought one at Fitchburg Plumbing Supply 2 years ago for $57.00
Other places will want $90 to 100.

Re: power consuption:  My old motor driven circulator ran off 2.25 amps
                       whereas the Taco uses 0.75 amp (about 270 watts vs
                       90 watts)

Steve

re Note 2641.1 by SALEM::M_TAYLOR:

>     If it's simple, and that's the fix, then fine... If you have gunked-up
>     bearings, then consider the small cost of a new cartridge circulator
>     (mfg. by TACO) as a better alternative to maintaining a power-wasting
>     older large-motored pump. The older motors just waste a lot of power,
>     and the TACO circulators are real mizerly; merely consuming the
>     power of a 75-watt light bulb. 

My heating system, installed ten years ago, has one of each.  The larger motor
is for the two-loop second floor.  I always assumed that the installer chose a
larger motor for the larger, more distant zone.  (I like the old motor -- it's
easy to tell that it's running;  I can only tell if the other is active by the
warmth of the pipe.)

So you say that there's no difference in capacity?

Bob

    Before you swap the whole works, check on the cost of a new motor.
    It may be a lot cheaper; cheap enough, in fact, so it's not worth
    the bother of fixing the old one.  You might be able to get a
    rebuilt motor for a few dollars + exchange, too.  
    The new self-contained TACO units are really slick though.

    I think you'll find that the Taco 007 is a bolt-on replacement for
    your older, separate motor/pump combo.  The Taco requires no
    maintenance; the combo requires periodic lubrication and seal
    replacement.  Definintely, get the new cartridge circulator.
    
    pbm
    

NEED TO INSTALL NEW HOT WATER SYSTEM - NEED ADVICE 

I presently have a FHW oil fired heating system with a tankless coil in the
boiler.  The unit is about 40 years old, with a fairly new burner.   My hot
water is down to a trickle if I want the water to stay hot.  An improvement
has been long overdue.   I also have a gas line already plumbed into the
house, but it is not in service (but I had it checked out and it's OK).  
My question is should I go with a gas fired hot water tank?   Should I
preheat the new tank through the coil to get some(?) benefit in the winter?
What is the most energy/cost efficient way to go?   What about a gas-fired
tankless unit on the wall instead of keeping a 50 gallon tank hot?  

Thanks, 

David 

    I have heard a lot of good things about a "Paloma Pack" (sp?) which
    is a tankless unit hung on the wall (looks like a urinal or maybe
    it's roughly that size).
    
    I'm not sure if you get any benefit from preheating by feeding from
    your tankless into another tank.  That's what I'm doing in the winter
    (FHWO tankless feeds my electric heater with hot water in winter,
    cold water in summer) but I can't prove I've saved any money on
    the oil side - it still gets cold water running through the tankless
    unit which causes the boiler to cycle on, but then my electric heater
    doesn't have to heat that water up and is a very efficient storage
    tank.
    
    Pete

    Check the gas company's cost to activate the line (I got a figure
    of $1200 for a line that is already there -- all they need to do
    is shoot a liner into it).  It may help to tell them you plan to
    install a gas boiler down the road.
    
    The gas option is probably something like $500 + cost of activating
    gas.  Works fine, doesn't cost much to run if you gat a heater
    with decent insulation.
    
    *Somewhere* in this conference is everything I learned about
    hot water in a similar situation, you may want to look it up.
    
    My bottom line is, your only other serious alternative is an
    "indirect-fired" water heater.  It runs hot boiler water into
    a coil inside the water heater tank, with a circulator that acts
    like another zone on your system.  Costs about $1200 installed,
    works fine.
    
    This is NOT to be confused with an Aqua-Booster which simply
    stores water (slowly) heated by your current tankless coil.
    
    dq
    
    
    

Having added on to my house, the wall in my master bedroom which has the
baseboard heat is no longer on an outside wall.  As a result, I now think I
have too much radiator since today the heat in the bedroom rose significantly
when the heat came on.

My question is what is the best way to reduce the amout of heat the radiator
throws off?  Some thoughts I've had are:

	o	break off some fins - seems like an awful lot of work and it's
		a one-way deal

	o	stuff some insulation around the fins - sounds more promising

Is there something more obvious I haven't thought of?

-mark

1)  I've seen fins that are only pressed on the copper pipe.  If so you may
be able to slide them (probably with some effort) together.  For instance
if you slide 1 foot's worth into a chunk and repeat this over 4 feet you
will effectively kill the radiating value in that section.  Insulating the
bare pipe between would further prevent heat flow. 

2)  Put tape over the slot along the top of the radiator.  This slows the 
convective flow rising through the fins and will slow the heat output 
somewhat.

btw, insulating the fins is kinda like stepping on the gas and brake at the 
same time.  i hate to be over safety conscious but maybe you should try it 
and stick a thermometer in there and crank the heat up to see how hot it
gets. 

Craig

    You are on the right track, breaking off the fins will reduce the
    section to a piece of 3/4" copper pipe, but instead of "stuffing"
    insulation around, use 3/4" pipe insulation. Thats waht it is made
    for.
    						Chris

    If you want to play plumber (I know, I know, it's probably illegal in
Massachusetts) there's probably a few choices.  One quick thought is that
since baseboard-heat pipe is thin-walled - so it can lose heat quickly -
you could cut-and-paste some L-type or whatever the thicker-walled pipe is.
This, with the 3/4" pipe insulation, would probably save a few cents a week.
    If you do consider it, remember that baseboard pipe is placed very near
things that a torch can easily set fire to.  And there's lots of advice
elsewhere in this file on draining a zone.

    re: .3
    Copper is such a good heat conductor, I doubt that the thicker-walled
    tubing would make any difference.  As far as I know, the thin-wall
    copper tubing is used in heating systems simply to save money. 
    Since the same water is recirculated all the time, there is less
    of a corrosion problem than there is in water-supply pipes, and
    the thinwall stuff works fine.
    
    The idea of stuffing some insulation into the baseboards is kind
    of kludgy, but probably the simplest.  Don't worry about fire
    danger - it can't get any hotter than the water in the pipe, and
    that will be around 180 degrees, maximum.  
    

    We ended up with contractor number 2, and are quite pleased with the
    results.  We thought they were going to get rid of the oil in the tank,
    but they said that we had to take care of it, and that any oil company
    would be willing to pump it out and deliver it one of their customers
    for about half the price that oil was going for.  This turned out
    to be incorrect -- the best we could do was to get somebody to take
    it if we paid them $100.  The contractor apologized and said it was his
    mistake and he'd arrange to get rid of the oil, which he did.

    On the day they were supposed to show up at 8, they called at 7 to
    apologize that they would be a day late.  The next day they showed up
    prepared and on time.  They were very efficient and polite, and finished
    the job when they said they would.  When the gas company's inspector
    came, he remarked what a great job they had done, saying that he sees
    a lot of poor plumbing, and this was top-of-the-line.

    I'll enter a recommendation in the contractors' section.

    Is this a multi-zone system?  Are the rest of the rooms on this
    zone somewhat unused, and thus don't need the heat anyway.
    
    In this case, you could partially close the shutoff valve for that
    zone to restrict the water flow through that zone when it's on.
    Since less water flows through the pipes, less heat will come out
    of the baseboard radiator.
    
    
    -bill

    I have a FHW heating (oil) system that I recently bled.  (Actually, the 
    oil man did the bleeding.)  Since then, every time the circulator
    comes on, there is a loud, high pitched whistling or squealing noise
    from one of the radiators.  There is no gurgling, bangs, or any
    other noises, just the whistling.  
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Barry

    Is the noise from only 1 radiator or more than one? Older radiators
    had a bleeder valve that would allow air to escape at startup, and
    these would make a whistling noise until all the air was out. If
    only one radiator does this, there still may be air somewhere in
    the line.
    
    If the noise is coming from more than 1 radiator, check if you here
    it in the basement by the furnace. If the noise is also there,
    I would guess that the squeal is indicating a circulator pump that
    needs oiling. When it squeals, it can reverberate throughout the
    pipes. If you have one large pump (as opposed to one small one per
    zone), it probably has 3 holes for oil; 2 on the motor (front and
    rear bearing) and one for the impeller. In my prev house, I had
    to check and oil about 2X a year, or the squeal would begin.  
    
    Eric

    Our FHW baseboards have a louver, or what appears to be one, in
    them.  It is a dark brown piece of metal that runs the length of
    the baseboard above the fins.  Some of them were in the "closed"
    position when we moved in and certainly reduced the amount of heat
    given off.  Moved them to "open" and bingo, we had heat.
    
    Ruth

    The whistling was continuous, not at just at startup, and coincided
    with the circulator exactly.  It came from one radiator only. 
    It did not sound like air escaping, more like a vibration noise.
    
    Anyway, I use the past tense because I finally found the problem.
    Seems there are two in-line valves in each of two heating zones.
    They are operated by a screw-driver. (Anyone know which way is open/close?)
    You shutoff one valve to bleed the opposite zone. (Not really
    a heating zone, but a loop of the plumbing that goes upstairs and
    back.)  When the pipes were bled, one of these valves was apparently 
    adjusted to a certain position which happen to set up the right
    harmonics to start the pipes singing away. My own personal one note
    pipe organ. A one quarter turn of the valve did the trick. 
                                               

     You imply that you have a single zone (i.e., one thermostat, no
    zone valves).  In which case those screw-driver valves are probably for 
    balancing the heat.  You may find that the 1/4-turn results in too
    much or too little heat in the upstairs.
    
    Bob

                Those little valves are often only 1/4 turn valves (even
        though they may turn a full 360) which are closed with the screw
        slot across the pipe and full open with the slot parallel to the
        pipe.
                
                /s/     Bob

    After a few days of "going nuts", I'm putting this "reference"
    information here.
    
    FHW Boilers marked as "Mbh" xx, is the same as "thousands of Btu".
    
    Thus an Mbh 93 is the same as 93,000 Btu input heat.
    
    Surprising enough, when I asked that same question of a couple of
    reputable contractors and two "well recommended" suppliers; nooone
    there had any knowledge of what I was asking for. So much for
    recomended suppliers. 
    
    The question cam up because I'd "like" to add heat to my second
    floor of my 2000+ plus square foot hovel, and my furnace boiler,
    and 'old" American-Standard Furnace (now bankrupt .. the furnace
    portion) is no longer in business. And its rated at Mbh 73.
    
    Som. Lumber suggests I need an additional 75,000 btu just for my
    second floor.
    
    Consumer reports book: (RS Means & Co): Estimating COnstruction
    Guide recommends 225,0000 Btu for 2400 square feet of MODERN house
    
    Ce la vie'...
    
    Bob
    

>    < Note 2714.4 by REGENT::GETTYS "Bob Gettys N1BRM 235-8285" >
>                         -< You may have shut it off >-
>
>                Those little valves are often only 1/4 turn valves (even
>        though they may turn a full 360) which are closed with the screw
>        slot across the pipe and full open with the slot parallel to the
>        pipe.
>                
>                /s/     Bob


    Useful info! I will have to check that. Thanks!
    
    Barry

    Re .6
    
    For reference, our 2200 sq ft two-story drafty gambrel - it's not
    tight construction, it was built 1972 before the first Arab ripoff
    - has a 180,000 Btu American Standard which is quite adequate, maybe
    even a bit oversize, according to our heating contractor.  The
    burner is running with a restricted nozzle, he says it's currently
    putting out about 155,000 Btu.  Annual oil consumption 1300 gallons,
    which includes quick-recovery hot water with no storage tank.
    
    Incidentally, American Standard didn't really go bankrupt; they
    sold their home heating boiler business to Burnham.            
    
    pbm
    

    Well, after a summer of no problems, the chattering is back.
    (see base note) I was kind of hoping it would dissapear. No
    such luck.  
    
    The problem is tough to isolate, but I now suspect a faulty printed
    circuit board. I can make the relay go on and off by putting slight
    pressure on the board, in or out. Right now i have a peice of wire
    wedged behind the middle of the board, to creat a slight bend in
    the board , and the sys is working ok. I guess I will have to replace
    the grey Honeywell box. Can anybody  offer any ideas?      
    
    What would the controlls cost?  
                                                           
    

    Question:
    
    When Installing modern baseboard heat in a very old house (150+) years
    old (post and beam); is it wise to run the FHW pipes THROUGH the
    vertical posts ? 
    
    The problem is this: Each room is more/less divided from its adjoining
    room by a vertical post, and in a few cases the door frame butts up
    against the post, making a  "loop" impossible. 
    
    I notice also in the baseboard heaters they have 1" (or more) pipe; is
    it necessary to use 1" pipe through ths system, or to use something
    smaller,and use reduction fittings in/out of the heater elements? 

    The last problem is this: What is the overall effect of adding
    additional load to an already undersized system ? 
    
    Using calculated numbers, my furnace is already undersized to maintain
    the "magic" 70'F theoretical load. However, my house doesn't know that,
    and it is quite comfortable anyway ;and even on the coldest days
    (-15'F) the furnace loafs along about every 15 minutes for 5 minutes or
    so (remembered guestimate).  Somerville Lumbers "program" suggests
    a 75,000 ADDITIONAL Btu for the space (about 1000 sq. ft with 7.5
    ft ceilings).
    
    My furnace is an old "deep well" cast iron American Standard rated
    at 73  MBH, (73,000 btu) and is already heating about 900 sq ft
    of space.
    
    I plan to 'zone' part of the existing systems, and ultimatly end
    up with four zones.
    
    Also, has anyone ever ran FHW pipes through a  "cold attic" as a
    means of circumeventing ripping up floors. The house is
    really wonderful, but its not blest with a full foundation; 1/2
    - 2/3 of the house is "on grade", with a full fireplace on 
    one end of the house, and two more chimneys (one of them a kitchen
    chimney that runs through a bedroom upstairs. The Kitchen 'ell'
    is, I think, was once a separate building joined to the main house
     because its "second floor" is 18 inches below the adjacent room,
    and one of the doorways (scrunched in the corner) is very narrow
    as it negotiates between the inside corner of the house and a deep
    closet.
    
    I'm now in the process of "mapping" the pipe runs, and need ideas
    on how to negotiate the posts, run pipes up through the first floor
    (I have a bathroom soil pipe box, and CAN extend the boxed in posts
    to accomadate pipes, as well).
    
    Bob
    is
    

    

    I also have a very old house (built in 1780) with post and beam
    construction..It has FHW in baseboard with about 1" copper pipes.
    I have not noticed any piping THROUGH the vertical posts.
    
    I also have an old "summer kitchen" and carriage shed off the back
    of the house which we have just "reclaimed" (torn back to outer
    shell..replaced carrying timbers, roof, floor, etc,) and are now
    using as a family room.  We put in electric baseboard heat in this
    area rather than to add on to the existing heating system.  The
    electric baseboard heat will eventually be the backup system to
    a woodstove (when the old chimney gets rebuilt!)
    
    Anyway, If you would like to see an actual installation of FHW
    baseboard in an antique house, you would be welcome to come and
    look at ours.  I live in Pepperell, MA. Send mail to MEMCL1::LATHAM
    if you are interested in doing so.

    I replaced the printed wire board in the control box over the
    weekend and the chattering of the relay has stopped. This seems
    to be the fix. I can only hope that the set up I have doesn't 
    cause the same problem to the new controls.
    
    BTW. I found the controls at the local scrap dealer still attached
    to a FHW bioiler. cost $2, and my labor. It was worth the shot.
    
    Steve

I'm wondering if someone would explain what the adjustments in the control
box for my oil furnace do?

There are MAX, MIN, and DIFFERENCE adjustments.  Also, please explain how
the thermostat overrides these adjustments to turn the burner on.  Finally,
what are the recommended settings for the adjustments.

Thanks in advance,

Allen

    
      I must make an assumption; That you get hot water from your furnace.
    
      MIN - This is the minimum internal temp that your furnace will
    	maintain. If you have hot water on your furnace, this should
    	be about 160. 
    
     MAX - This is the maximum internal temp that you furnace will get
    	to ONLY when your house is calling for heat. If you have hot
        water on your furnace, this should be about 200.
    
     Diff - This is the amount above and below the MIN and MAX that
    	the furnace will maintain.
    		Example ;
    				MIN = 160
    				MAX = 200
    				Diff = 10
    
    		Not asking for heat: Furnace goes on at 150
    				     Furnace turns off at 170
    
    		Asking for heat:   Furnace goes on until 210
    				   Furnace turns off at 190
    
    			Note that the circulator will continue to run
    			  until thermostat is satisfied.
    
       If you do not get hot water from your furnace, these MINs and
    MAXs should be reduced by 20-30 degrees. AND the MIN then becomes
    the temp the circulator turns on at when the furnace is heating
    up due to thermostat demand.
    
    					Kenny
    

      Sorry the examply for calling for heat should read:
                             
    			MAX = 200
    			MIN = 160
    			Diff = 10
    
    	When calling for heat	Furnace goes off at 210
    				Furnace turns on at 190
    
    			This continues until thermostat is satisfied
    
    					Kenny

Thanks Kenny!

Allen

    First, a furnace generates hot air, a boiler generates hot water/steam.
    
    According to the Hydronic control book I have it states the
    following...
    
    MAX. (HI limit setting) Turns burner off, circulator operates on
                            call for heat
    
    MIN  (Low limit and circulator setting) on 10 degree drop below
       			    low limit set point, burner turns on,
    			    circulator stays off.
    
    DIFF (adjustable)	    IF set to 10..when temp reaches low limit
    			    setting it turns off burner and turns on
    			    circulator, if no call for heat circulator
    			    does not turn on, if call for heat burner
    			    and circulator continue to run
    
    
    						Dave
    

I've got a question about the anticipator in the thermostat.  I thought this
was a little heater that keeps the temperature from overshooting too much in
the living area.   B-b-but, they always tell you to set the thing to some
current that is rated from the transformer on the boiler/furnace.  Is this just
a guideline to be adjusted later?  I'd like to feel that it's OK to "tune out"
the overshoot. What's the scoop?


...bill

      You're right it IS a little heater. It's a piece of NiChrome wire
    (or similar). What you have to watch out for is if you set it for
    too low an amperage rating, (the further across you go the greater
    the total resistance of the element). If it's set too low it's possible
    to burn out the element because of excess current through it.
      You can always set it higher if you want, just not lower. If you
    set it too high the result will be little or no heating of the
    element. Which sounds like the effect you want.
    
    					Kenny

Well, that's exactly what I did. The "ON" cycle was getting shortened too much
form excess anticipator heat.  I just moved the little slider to a higher
resistance until it works the way I like.  Still it's a pretty neat trick for
compensating the control loop.

There are some new electronic thermostats that measure the outside temp as well
as the inside temp.   They calculate the rate of heat loss and automatically
"anticipate" the overshoot. Computers are everywhere!

...bill

    What's the easiest way to replace an expansion tank on the furnace,
    not a well? i.e. Drain this first, do this second ...
    
    Thanks
    Tim
    
    

>    What's the easiest way to replace an expansion tank on the furnace,
>    not a well? i.e. Drain this first, do this second ...
 
Are we talking FHW here? Domestic (potable)?

Depends. If it's an "X-TROL" type, I believe it can be unscrewed from a 
threaded fitting located on the top of the tank. Use teflon tape or a 
flexible pipe sealer (rated for hot water) on the threads when you replace
the tank. If it's an older type, you'll probably have to do a bit of
plumbing - cutting, soldering etc... 

More than likely, you don't have to drain the entire system. Just drain 
down to where you're below the tank level.  Better yet, you may find 
that you have a tank isolation (cutoff) valve. If that's the case, shut 
off the furnace (you don't really want to be heating water without an 
expansion tank; for that matter, shut off the furnace no matter which 
approach you take), close this valve, and then drain only the tank. This
eliminates the need for bleeding every register in the house later. 

Just a thought, if this seems like a very difficult job, or if you are 
not clear on what you're getting into, keep in mind that it's getting 
cold out and if you screw up you won't have any heat for however long 
it takes to get it fixed.

Why, may I enquire, are you replacing the tank anyway? Leaking?

Chuck

One more thing; I think it should go without saying (but I'm saying it 
anyway) that you need to turn off the water supply to the system, 
before doing anything.

this may be the main house cutoff valve or you might have a system 
isolation valve.

    I am interested if anyone knows if add on fins are avaiable for
    heating pipes in order to extract some heat. I would like to raise
    the temperature in my basement a few degrees in the winter. I 
    would rather not add another zone or new baseboard units (I have FHW).
    I read notes 435 and 1861 but this subject was not addressed. 

    .0 sounds like he wants to steal heat from hot pipes in the cellar
    without expanding the heating system.  I saw that TOH show, too,
    and will be replacing some 'square' finned piping with the new
    computer-designed stuff, probably next summer after I find out where
    to buy it.
    
    If I understand .0 correctly, there are two problems with what you
    want to do.  First, stealing this heat will lower your temperature
    at the ultimate target of whatever pipes you steal from and you
    may have to compensate for that.  Second, if your cellar's like
    mine, those pipes are all in the ceiling and not at floor level,
    which doesn't really help you heat your cellar effectively.
    
    If I had to do what you want to do, I'd either add a zone or a
    stand-alone unit, but I know that's not what you want to hear so
    I won't say it ;^)

My father did just that, and didn't suffer any heat loss to speak of
(ie: his gas usage didn't go up at all)


Call a plumber who installs water heat systems.  Tell him you're 
interested in buying some extra lengths of the finned tubing
from, and I'll bet he finds some short sections.  It's not all 
that hard to splice them together, and you're really  not looking
to win any kind of appearance awards anyway.


-bill

    
    I checked in the HEATING_FHW and didn't find this problem
    before... 
    
    Anyway, we have a oil force hot water (FHW) and lately
    the pressure relieved valve would leak causing a large
    amout of hot water to come out. It happened couple of
    times b4 and we had our hot water guy to come in and
    fix it. The guy didn't seem to know what he was doing
    since it happened again twice within a month that he
    changed some parts.
    
    Questions:
    
    - is there anything my husband can do to fix the problem ?
    - if not, can someone recommend a GOOD heater contactor 
      (we are tired of spending $$ and time without a 
       reasonable result) in the northshore area (Woburn, Reading,
       Stonham, Wakefield, Lynefield...).
     I checked in the note that for references and made a phone call
     to M.Horvitz. They would come out if we really want them to. 
     The person I talked to (Mike Horvitz) was very nice and talked us 
      out of using them, because
    
     1. they do gas only
     2. they are in Brookline which is quite far from us and they
        will need to charge for the travel time.
        
 
    Thanks in advance.

    
    Sounds like you might have a problem with the relief valve or the
    expansion tank. Is there an altimeter on the system? What is it
    reading? Does the relief valve blow off the excess pressure at the
    right value (tag on valve)? It might be as simple as just too much
    water in the system.
    
    CdH
     

    RE: .1, as was said prev, check the pressure guage reading, both
    when the water temp is at its lowest and at its highest. There will
    be some difference, but not a huge amount. If the pressure is within
    normal range, then the relief valve may be def. An idea of the normal
    range is to see what the automatic feed valve is set to (in my old
    house, it was 12 PSI, so my pressure rarely got over 15 psi hot.).
    If your pressure is considerably higher at all times, possibly the
    feed valve is defective, allowing water into the system when it
    shouldn't. If the difference between the cool and hot pressure is
    great, look at the expansion tank being defective. Those are some
    general possibilities to check into.
    
    Eric

>    Anyway, we have a oil force hot water (FHW) and lately
>    the pressure relieved valve would leak causing a large
>    amout of hot water to come out. It happened couple of
>    times b4 and we had our hot water guy to come in and
>    fix it. 

     If you have tankless hot water, then you might have a pinhole leak in 
the heat exchanger.  That topic has been discussed at length before, 
though I don't know exactly where.  The easiest way to find out where 
would be to start a new note on that topic, and rely on the moderator to 
nail you!

	I had a similar problem with my gas FHW system - noisy
	"one-way" valves.  I think they are actually called check flow valves.
	(Watts No. 2000S, 3/4", sweat) (hey, I sound like a plumber now, eh? :-)
	
	One of my 3 valves was very noisy, one somewhat noisy, one was OK.
	I got 3 new ones from Somverville and No. Andover Plumbing Supply,
	drained my system, and replaced all three.  Also replaced the 
	No. 700 air vent valve (the one that screws into the pressure tank),
	which was clogged up solid.

	Flushed (I felt like I was in "Das Boot".....  :-) the system real 
	good, purged real good - now works better then ever!  
	Quiet, more heat from having less sludge in the pipes.

		Josh Belkin	

    I know nothing about plumbing/heating systems but when this happened
    to me, the problem was solved by replacing the expansion tank.

re. .3

Yes, we do have a tankless hot water. I will check the other notes
you mentioned. 

re. .1,.2
    
Last night my husband turned off the services switch. Released water 
out of the PRV manually until the pressure went to zero,
the water regulator didn't kick in. The regulator was quite hot.
He then ran a hot water tap until the burner (and regulator) had cool 
down a lot, at this point the regulator kick in and let water in 
until the pressure was about 10. When he fired up the burner again 
the pressure maxed out at 15. Also, my husband measured the pressure in 
the expansion tank when the boiler pressure was zero, it was ten. 

Questions:
1. Can we assume that the expansion tank is ok, but the regulator
   is a bit sticky ?

2. Is it worthwhile to take apart the regulator or should we 
   just buy a new one ?

3. If we need to install a new regulator, could someone give us
   some advice on how to do it ?

    Depending on how old the system is, it is usually a case with the
    pressure regulator being at fault.  I replaced mine and the relief
    valve because the relief valve had opened up so often that its spring
    was weakened.  I also replaced the check valve (backflow preventer)
    because that was also dripping.  All these items can be bought at
    Spag's (where else) and can be replaced DYI.  Some of the valves
    must be sweated in.  They are not expensive (certainly cheaper than
    having a plumber come and do it).  A plumber is the person I'd call
    if you don't want to tackle it yourself.

    There aren't too many things left now... If the reducing valve at
    the boiler's fresh water inlet is doing as the author says, then
    the problem is simply a bad relief valve. The seat in that valve
    is prone to failure and the valve is an expendable part. SHould
    be about $20 at the right price, or $30 at the high end of the scale.
    --Hardly anything to worry about--
    
    Mike

    
    
   I have a spare room which I leave closed and unheated.  I have a
    gas hot water convection system.  This particular room is on the
    same zone as my bedroom.  What I've been doing is closing down the
    long enlongated louver so that I minimize the convection of heat
    thereby allowing the heat [in the pipe] to return to the boiler
    at a higher [temp?].  Anyway, the point here is that I have no need
    to heat this room but I want to maintain a safe air temperature
    to avoid freezing the heater pipe or the hot/cold water pipes to
    a bath which is adjacent to this room.  
    
    I do not want to invest the $$$$ into another zone.  Way too costly.
    
    But I had a freeze up in this room last year and suspect another
    potential bout.
    
    The reason this has happened is that the thermostat for the zone
    sit in a south facing room which recieved a lot of passive solar.
    Temps in the spare room with door closed and louvers shut can drop
    to 40 degrees while my room basks in 70 degrees with the thermostat
    set at 55.
    
    I would like to install a fail safe device in the spare room.  Let's
    say a room heater that would kick on at 40 degrees and turn off
    at 55 degrees.  
    
    Is there such a control that I could purchase that accurately measures
    air temperature that I could plug an electric heater into?
    
    Bill

    I have a neighbor who has had problems with frozen heating pipes
    primarily due to a wood stove which keeps room temp up near thermostat.
    He went to a heating/plumbing supply place and they sold him a small
    independent thermostat which attaches to the heating pipe at the
    location where he was having the problem. It is wired to the zone
    valve for that zone and cycles the furnace for a brief period whenever
    the water temperature in the pipe drops to 40 degrees. It then shuts
    off the furnace when water temp goes over 100 degrees. 
    
    The problem with adding a room heater to your other room is that
    heating pipes usually run under floors, inside walls, etc. where
    they are more exposed to outside cold than room heat. Since the
    room heat may not reach these exposure points, it may not help your
    problem. This has solved his problem. One other option is to add
    anti-freeze to your hot water system ( just like a car radiator)
    and this will stop the freezing. I do not know exactly what type
    of anti-freeze is used. My neighbor's solution is, I am sure, less
    expensive. 
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Regards,
    Larry

    I too have been having banging noises from my gas FHW system that
    is about 25yrs old. The pressure gauge on the front jumps like hell
    and it sounds like the water in the boiler is so hot it is bubbling
    but the bottom gauge that tells the water pressure is ok. Could
    one of my two zone valves be causing this. I just had a friend change
    the flow valve and the air vent valve. He works as an oil burner
    repairman and never works on gas. We purged it and we get heat but
    when it first starts up I get the banging and after it shuts off
    the needle on the gauge starts jumping.

    I've just recently converted from electric to gas FHW and spent time
    researching (asking plumbers) about antifreeze in boilers. 
    Car antifreeze will corrode the boiler and may void any
    warrantee on your boiler. 
    
    I wouldn't put car antifreeze in the boiler because 
    car antifreeze is poisonous! If your fill valve malfunctions 
    the antifreeze could get into your drinking water.
    
    There is a new product Cryolock (not sure but something like this)
    that is not poisonous according to the plumber. He said that you 
    could drink the stuff all day long and not have to worry.
    I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it in writing and could verify 
    the ingredients of the stuff. BTW, the stuff costs about $10/ gallon.
    
    The plumbers that I talked to didn't seem too worried about the 
    car antifreeze getting into the drinking water but I wouldn't trust
    my family's health on a stupid valve.
    
    The device in .1 sounds good but it also sound like a small wiring job.
    I would imagine that the device would have a sensor 
    at the cold spot on the water pipe. The device must wire in parallel
    with the thermostat to turn on the circulator.
    
    Just thought I'd throw in the info about car antifreeze.   
    
    

    RE: .2, you could probably solve the problem with a feed valve by
    using some kind of anti-backflow valve, but I would still get nervous
    knowing that the heating system has something toxic in it.
    
    Eric

    
    My heating system has a anti-backflow valve.  I asked a plumber
    about the valve some time ago and he indicated that it was fool
    proof.  If it became defective it might not allow fresh water from
    entering but was [guaranteed?] not to allow a back flow.
    
    Anyway:  Tips from .1 and 2. are especially appreciated.  I am going
    to look into both alternatives which beat my idea by a long shot.
    
    BTW... the zone was frozen when I went home last night.  What a
    drag.
    
    A quick question on the antifreeze alternative.  My system is not
    a closed loop system.  Fresh water enters the system through the
    back flow valve as water evaporates.  If antifreeze is added to
    the system will it eventually become dilluted and ineffective as
    fresh water mixes with it over time.  Or does the plumber add a
    means of adding fresh antifreeze autmatically when the system calls
    for it?
    
    Any wisdom on this?
    
    Bill

Why not move the thermostat?  Maybe put it in the room you're concerned 
about and leave it set low?
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    RE. -.1  Easy solution but not practical.  I would then have no
    control over the heat in my room.  While my room is basking in solar
    the heat would be pumping into it increasing the temperature even
    further.  This increases my active heating and invalidates the passive.
    
    No... I need to isolate the cold room and the the idea of circulating
    the heat via a sensor is the best idea.  This way it really does'nt
    matter what the air temp of the room is.  And I'm reasonably guaranteed
    a frost free heating system.
    
    Bill

I have a couple of unused rooms - they're still under construction and I see no
reason to spend any extra $$$'s on heating them. 

I cover all the baseboards with insulation!  This minimizes the amount of heat
that escapes into the room.  On a cold winter day, the rooms can easily drop
to 30-40 (although I never bothered putting in a thermostat).

The main reason I don't have the pipe freezing problem you do is that the other
rooms on that zone keep the water moving.

-mark

     It is possible for the water in the boiler to actually boil and for 
steam to make its way up into the radiators.  This happened in my system 
after 1) a bigger nozzle was put in and 2) the old fashioned overtemp-cutoff 
switch came loose from the pipe it was strapped to.

     So if your over-temperature cutoff isn't working, you can get steam 
in your hot water system.

    I find it very hard to believe that you don't have a closed 
    system!!  Even closed systems have an automatic fill device
    for "make-up" water.  A small amount of water is sometimes
    lost through bleeders vents etc.  And the automatic fill
    device is to prevent a melt down in case of a large leak in
    the system.
    
    Anti-freeze is the way to go.  It would take a long time, if
    ever to become so diluted so as to become ineffective. (opinion)
    

    
     I will be installing FHW in my electric house this summer, has
    anyone ever heard of or used a special(?) PVC to run the hot water
    to regular copper registers??
    
     Dan

    
    I believe polybutylene is used for low-temperature (<180 deg F)
    hot water applications, usually under the floor, not to regular
    registers.  PVC is not appropriate for hot water use.  CPVC is
    used for domestic hot water, but I personally, would not want to
    use it for heating purposes. 
    
    -tm
    

         I'm not sure what it's called (although I'd bet it's
         mentioned somewhere else in this conference), but when FHW
         was run to a new room in our house, they used flexible tubing
         that expands if the contents freeze.  They called it
         something like polybutylene but again, I'm not sure.  They
         used a tool that compressed the tubing to copper fittings
         sweated to pipes.

    
      I looked in all the previous notes that deal with this and could
    not find anything. The tubing is polybutylene, I am interested in
    the price/value as compared to copper. Is copper better in any way?
    
     I would think that this Poly tubing is better in that it does expand
    and not freeze, I would also think that it would be more tolerent
    to Hard water.  Any other Pros/Cons????
    
    

    >> I am interested in the price/value as compared to copper. 
    
    Copper tubing is certainly more expensive than polybutylene
    tubing, but the polybutylene compression fittings are expensive.
    For a heating system, polybutylene is probably cheaper, since you
    won't need too many fittings (unlike bathroom plumbing, for
    instance). 
    
    >> Is copper better in any way?                                        
    
    Copper radiates heat much better than polybutylene, so it is much
    better for heating a room.  However, polybutylene would be more
    appropriate for running the hot water through unheated areas (where
    you don't want to lose the heat carried by the hot water).
    
    I have not been impressed with some of the polybutylene valves, 
    so if any are needed you might want to use brass valves with
    compression fittings (which can be connected to polybutylene). 
                             
    Note that polybutylene is rated for temperatures only up to
    180 degrees Farenheight, and copper can withstand much higher
    temperatures.
        
    >> I would think that this Poly tubing is better in that it does expand
    >> and not freeze, 
    
    Polybutylene does expand (making it unlikely to burst), but the water 
    in it can certainly freeze!  Come visit me in 20 below weather, and 
    I'll show you.  And unlike copper, it takes *forever* to thaw.
    
    >> I would also think that it would be more tolerent to Hard water.
                                                                
    Polybutylene would certainly not react with *acidic* water,
    the way copper does, but hard water (which is usually slightly
    basic and carries lots of minerals) could affect polybutylene
    by clogging up valves, just as it would with copper or brass.
    

    
    This was covered in a recent episode of This Old House. In the next
    few episodes they are going to show how this plastic pipe FHW system
    is connected up. I can see that one big advantage is the flexibility
    of the plastic pipe in running it throughout the house. 
    
    Bob ^*   

My house has a gravity/hot water heating system with massive cast iron
radiators. For aesthetic reasons, it would be nice to replace some of the
radiators with baseboards. A few questions:

	1) Would I also need to add a circulator pump to the system to make
	   it FHW?

	2) Would the system require any other modifications?

	3) Any idea about the cost of such a conversion?

	4) Any comments on advantages/disadvantages?

Thanks.

    Can anyone recommend a good book that describes DIY installation
    of FHW in a house?
    

re: .15

>    Can anyone recommend a good book that describes DIY installation
>    of FHW in a house?

I looked for such a book when I installed my FHW system a few years ago.
Everything I looked at was either too technical (talked about the physics of
heat transfer) or too general (left too much to the imagination).

I found the best thing to do was find someone at a plumbing supply house who
would talk to you, buy everything from him/her, and visit weekly with your
amateur questions.  They also drew up the initial plans for the layout of the
system.

Send me mail to TLE::WILD if you need more info.

Good Luck,

Joe


    

    Re: .15                                                           
    
    Joe's advice is good.  I do that all the time.  But don't just talk
    to one guy.  Try to find more that 1 person to talk to.  I ran into
    a retired plumbing and heating guy in Spag's and I learned a lot
    from him, too.  It's nice to get both a "young person's" and an 
    "old timer's" perspective.  You can learn a lot from both. 
    

MYSTERIOUS ELECTRICAL NOISE RELATED TO FURNACE

I've been stumped for a few months now by a strange intermittent electrical
noise that causes static on radio, TV , messes up the anything playing on 
the stereo, and even ripples through the telephone.   It started about 2-3
months ago when I did two things simulataneously-- installed Robertshaw
digital thermostats for the two FHW heat zones, and installed an Amtrol
Hot water maker (which is great by the way)....

I can only say that the noise mysteriously appears, and then goes away 
after one or two minutes (which is why it is tough to troubleshoot).  I
know that it is not tied to one particular circulator pump, since I've 
heard the static with either and neither circulator running.  The oil
burner does not need to be firing while thje noise is present.  Also, the
noise is picked up both through any radio plugged into house juice, or a
Walkman radio....

The one definate clue that ties it to the furnace is that hitting the kill
switch to the entire furnace stops the noise....

Anyone experience anything like this....bad brushes in a motor 
somewhere????  

I'd appreciate your help....

david

       
    Check the limit switch ("Aquastat") on your boiler.  There may be
    two of them - a normal high/low range and a safety shut-off.  I
    had a situation where the internal microswitch did not snap open,
    but stuck 1/2-way, arcing and producing real good RFI.
    
    BTW: "furnaces" are used in hot air systems, "boilers" are used
    in hot water and steam systems.

Reply .1 is exactly right....later yesterday I had the luck to be within 
earshot of the boiler when it cut out at the high temp limit, and the 
static began.  I havn't done anything yet, but maybe the contacts can be 
cleaned, or I'll replace the aquastat all together-- it's pretty old.
Thanks for the advice.

David

< Note 3031.1 by CADSE::ENGELHARDT >
                            -< check the aquastat >-

       
    Check the limit switch ("Aquastat") on your boiler.  There may be
    two of them - a normal high/low range and a safety shut-off.  I
    had a situation where the internal microswitch did not snap open,
    but stuck 1/2-way, arcing and producing real good RFI.
    
    BTW: "furnaces" are used in hot air systems, "boilers" are used
    in hot water and steam systems.

    Our heating system really messes up our AM radio reception when
    it is on, I think only when the pumps are operating.  Is this normal
    or should I have the pumps or whatever checked?
    
    Gary

    In reply to .3, if you have zone valves (which in turn activate the
    pump) rather than zone pumps, it could be the pump relay contacts on
    one or more of the zone valves.  Mine are so bad that they make all
    kinds of noise whenever they turn on or off.
    
    About 30 seconds after a thermostat calls for heat, the zone valve
    (which operates by having a hot wire expand the valve element) causes a
    pair of contacts to activate the pump relay.  The contacts get dirty or
    corroded quickly and easily apparently, because within a week after I
    clean them the problem starts happening again.  The relay chatters and
    arcs a bit before coming on solid, and the same thing happens when the
    zone valve is on its way off, which takes about 30 seconds after the
    thermostat turns off.
    
    It's got to be bad for the relay and the pump motor, but I am not real
    sure how to fix the situation other than buying new zone relays @$60.00
    apiece or more.  Maybe I'll just live with it until the whole thing
    falls apart, then put in a woodstove.

    After a lonnng look I didn't find anything pertaining to this. 
    If there IS a note Mr Moderator, feel free. thanks AL
    
    If you have been watching TOH lately ( I know, I know GAG!)?
    The heating plant that they put into this place looked real sharp
    and economical too boot.  I have asked around, and have two heating
    companies looking for it. (see Massi Plumbing and Fred Fuller) 
    as soon as they find it and got info on it (ie; tests availability,
    acuaracy etal) they will contact me.  The problem is this, The have
    been looking for ever and cannot seem to find it.
    
    For those that I have completely confused by now, it has a one inch
    baseboard, used a poly (plastic) piping, no copper or fins etc.
     suposedly its just as good as the conventional ones but easier
    instalation and upkeep.  Looks  great also.  I rewatched the part
    with this in it (see TOH fourth show) and remember the contract
    plummer (rich tethewey or some such) and he mentions that it is
    in New Hampshire.... WHERE???
    
    Any assistance would be great.  thanks Al

re  < Note 3093.0 by SALEM::AMARTIN "Thhhhhhhufferin' Thhhhhuckatasssthhhhh" >
>                       -< High Tech Heating Plant (TOH) >-
>    For those that I have completely confused by now, it has a one inch
>   baseboard, used a poly (plastic) piping, no copper or fins etc.
>     suposedly its just as good as the conventional ones but easier
>    instalation and upkeep.  Looks  great also.  I rewatched the part
>    with this in it (see TOH fourth show) and remember the contract
>    plummer (rich tethewey or some such) and he mentions that it is
>    in New Hampshire.... WHERE???
    

	I caught some of the show, but was sort of busy at the time.  
I thought they said the base board stuff itself was  "reverse 
engineered"  somewhere in NH from a Danish design and that they had 
produced lots of it much cheaper.  It might be possible to call the 
show and ask, say Norm' sent you and please post the answer here :-^)

	R

    well, being pledge week...YOU try getting an answer other than "HOW
    MUCH?"...  No serious, I tried to call and either got a busy signal
    or some person saying how much....
      

    How 'bout Rich Trethewy(sp)?

    It's Trethewey Bros. Plumbing, at (617) 325-3283.  They
    even mention their TOH connection in their Yellow Pages ad (which
    sort of perturbs me.  It's almost like someone advertising that
    they were top-rated by Consumer's Reports, except that the TOH and
    WGBH folk probably don't object.)
    
    Let us know how you make out.  We'll be converting to oil heat this
    year, and I'm wondering whether this new-fangled stuff is both worth
    the expense and the effort it takes to track it down.
    
       Gary

    RE: 3...never thought of that..:-)
    RE: 4... Yep will do.  thats what we are doing... had it with this
    ancient coal turned oil buner....radiators PAINS IN THE ARS it is!
    
    Will let you all know..
    
                                   AL

    re .4

    >    It's Trethewey Bros. Plumbing, at (617) 325-3283.  They
	
    Good idea, but I think his name is "rich" for a good reason...!(8-)
                 

About a month ago in the Sunday Boston Globe Magazine the last page 
called "getting around" or "keeping up" or something like that, had a 
phone number and distributor for that stuff and for the copper pipe 
with the porcupine-like hairs all over it (that was supposed to get 
lots of extra btu's out of the pipe for no more energy than the 
standard fins).

Evidently that product spawned more requests for information than any 
program in the history of TOH. My wife cut out the item, I'll see if I 
can find it and post the number. If not, just go back through your 
pile of old Globe Magazines.

John H.

    
    The inf. listed in the Globe was D. H. Crowley (distributer) @
    (617) 469-3200.
    
    The products discussed were:
    
    1.  "Danex" a radiant heat baseboard with only a 1" width 
    
    2.  "Spirotube" which provides twice the heat capacity of regular
        baseboard.
    
    D.H. Crowley is located at 4278 Washington St. in Roslindale (Boston).
    
    When I asked when they were open, they said USUALLY 8 AM - 5 PM,
    Mon-Fri, but if they had a "call", they closed the store.
    
    Sounds like a good idea to confirm that they will be.
    
    
    

    Was just about to ask the same question posed in .0. Thanks for
    asking it.
    
    I just called Trethewey Bros. Plumbing.  They will send out an
    information packet for the Danex Radiant Baseboard.  The lady in
    the sales office indicated it will take about two weeks due to the
    large number of requests.  The price is $12.50 a foot.
    
    Another source for a almost identical product (no holes) is
    Thermodyne Radiant Baseboard.  I don't have the information with
    me right now, but, I believe cost of this product was under $4.00
    per foot for a 4" or 5" high baseboard.  A 9" high version is somewhat
    more expensive (under $6.00).

    I talked with the area (Michigan) distributer for the Thermodyne
    baseboard. He sent out some information to me.  It was interesting
    to hear that they used to handle the Danex product, but discontinued
    after becoming pretty much non-competive price wise.
    
    He had some dealings with the TOH folks in his Danex days.  They
    wondered when the prices would be reduced.  He sent them pricing
    information for the Thermodyne products, but, never heard back.
    As it turned out good old Rich is the area distributer for Danex.
    
    If you like I can enter some of the performance information for
    the Thermodyne baseboard tomorrow if I can remember to bring it
    in. 

    Mmmm
    
    So now we begin to understand -if we didn't already- why services
    and/parts are often donated to TOH. All those folks -including
    Trethewey not least of all-are getting free advertisements.

    Re Note .9
    
    Jim,
    
    Could you post some spec information on the Thermodyne?
    
    At $12.50 a foot, Danex is a mighty expensive little pipe.
    
    Alfonso

    
    Another thing to consider with the Danex-type baseboard:
    
    Since it doesn't give off as much heat as normal finned baseboard,
    you need to install it around the ENTIRE perimeter of the room.
    At $12.50/foot, it seems as if this stuff is being priced as if
    it were gold!
    
    It does look like a great product, however.
    
    
    -Mark
    
    

    
    RE: .9 & .10
    
    And also makes you wonder if ol' Rich's connection with TOH (and
    thus Channel 2 air time) gives him a decided edge in acquiring these
    dealerships.  I'm sure Trethewey Bros. Plumbing is *very* generous
    to channel 2 during the current fund raising drive!
    

	Nice and cozy? I wonder. Pardon me and my antiquated thinking
	but could someone explain to me the underlying heat exchange
	principles on this plastic-looking tubing.

	Little details, thermal coefficients, heat transfer over unit area,
	stuff like that.

	How is it that this miracle pipe with no fins, spines, whatever is
	superior to finned copper or aluminum.

	The baseboards themselves looked pretty flimsy to me as well, much
	less like decent heat exchangers.

    The phone number for ThermoDyne listed in note .9 is incorrect.
    The number is (312)229-0425.
    
    Sorry

    In Hindsight of a task almost completed, I'd like to share these tidbits of
    information, gained through some "interesting" events.
    
    First: Thanks to all previous persons. Much of the information was useful,
    and even that which did not apply directly I could either adapt or pick up
    something from it.
    
    When installing a Forced  Hot Water baseboard heat onto the second floor of
    an  older  house  (150+ years),  several  "learning  opportunities"  became
    apparent, at one point or another:
    
    - Planning. Before beginning we took measurements of every wall and
    beam to the nearest inch, and visually  laid  out  (on  paper)  the
    whole system before beginning. (My word, the stuff you learn [sic:
    in  an  old  house]  after you get a portion of the floor removed.) 
    
    - The advice regarding drain valves  at  both  ends  of  the system is
    good advice. 
    
    - Advice regarding valves to isolate each zone from the other, in the
    event of problems is likewise good advice. 
    
    - At the top of EVERY riser, one should place a "bleeder petcock" to
    drain trapped air. 
    
    - When filling the system, open the valve (to a drain) nearest the end
    at the end of the loop, and fill from the other end. 
    
    - Pipes with water in them cannot be heated enough to melt the solder,
    when using a propane torch, no matter how long you hold the heat to
    them. 
    
    - When planning FHW Baseboard, with  finned copper tubing, plan to
    cover the entire exposed length of the wall, because the little "filler
    panels" are 5 times more expensive than the copper finned baseboard. 
    
    - Stock up on bandaids, Bacitracin,and peroxide, because sheet  metal
    has sharp edges. 
    
    - Talk to as many people as you can. 
    
    - Likewise read lots of DIY books before you start. 
    
    - In any given "Old House" a plumber must also be a carpenter, risk
    taker, and somewhat knowledgeable about "old nails". 
    
    - A  "Cup"  drill  is a cute device for making round holes.  A good
    quality cup drill will even cut through nails, wire, etc. 
    
    -  Any  electric drill cutting tool, if mounted on an 18" extension
    shaft, meets a nail or other "very hard" obstacle, remember" Yes, the
    shaft can be straightened out. 
    
    - Leaks will always be in "difficult" places, with  the  worst  being
    near the more expensive furnishings. 
    
    -  Very  powerful  tools, such as a "Milwaukee" 1/2" drill is stronger
    than your grip if it  should suddenly stop (correction: If the drill
    bit should suddenly stop). 
    
    - The  cost  of  additional  parts  won't  be on sale if you need more
    of a thing. 
    
    - Propane gas  runs  out  when all stores are closed.  Take cheer, a
    little rest, and along walk. It'll do you good. 
    
    - When the job  seems done, you are only half through.  In engineering, the
    term is called: "Debugging the system".
    
    - Using Compressed air  is great tool for finding leaks in a  system.
    Just be sure to use adequate pressure (like over 50 pounds PSI). (I had
    to return the Sear 12v portable air-compressor because it died at 35
    pounds, but the Black & Decker chugged along up to 55 psi.)

    - Be sure to install the "Snifter Valve" nearest to the supply end of
    the system. Not only is it great to test the system, by the air
    pressure can also "push out"  any water trapped in low spots. 

    - Hot water running through pipes, expanding, and contracting, will
    find the rest of the leaks. 
    
    - The shortest distance between two points "ought to be" a straight
    line. Sometimes the easiest path is around some corners. 

    - If a choice is necessary, solder pipes whose joints must be hidden
    in "difficult to get into places" first, and before they are installed.

    - Bare copper pipes don't look too bad if placed in an obscure corner
    of the room. 

    I probably forgot a few, but these .. these I remember .... quite
    well.
        
    Bob Early
    

    Re Thermodyne
    
    The greater Boston distributor for the stuff is:
    
            John Knox
            Radiant Energy Works
            (617) 542-7316
    
    Alfonso

    I find it a little hard to keep up with the "heating system of
    the week" shown on TOH.
    Whatever happened to the type whereby tubing was snaked under the
    flooring? No baseboards, even dispursement, warm floors - sounded
    perfect to me. It seems slicker that this other stuff.
    
    John

    Well, after this mornings news, it looks like the high-tech heating
    system will be a Fusion system.  Every house will have it's own
    little fusion plant in the cellar.
    
    Chris D.

re  < Note 3093.19 by TYCOBB::C_DENOPOULOS "Death by misadventure!" >
>                        -< Keeping up with technology. >-

>    Well, after this mornings news, it looks like the high-tech heating
>    system will be a Fusion system.  Every house will have it's own
>    little fusion plant in the cellar.
    
>    Chris D.


	...but the free market system will cause the price of a gallon 
of sea water to rise to the price of ten tonnes of coal...

					^--- I think it is ~equivalent
	R

    The fusion plant doesn't run on sea water; it runs on heavy water.
    Roughly a buck a gallon, I'm told.  (It's made by distilling liquid
    hydrogen.)
    
    But fusion releases high-energy neutrons, which have the nasty habit
    of turning everything they touch radioactive.  So the reactor vessel
    itself eventually turns into high-level radioactive waste!  There
    may be ways to handle it, but it's no free lunch.
    
    Besides, the whole thing sounds just too easy.  (But worth following.)

	My FHW pump is also now just showing some problems.  I have a
	2 zone system which has one pump and flow control valves which
	open or close depending on which zone needs heat.  The problem
	is that the electric pump is overheating for some reason which
	causes the motor to shut off until it cools off.  It seems to
	work okay during the day when the demand for heat is less now,
	but it usually overheats during the night.  Any suggestions?

	Dave

    You may just need some lubricant.  We had a problem a few weeks
    ago where one pump was squeeling.  The technician dumped lubricant
    into the right spot and muttered that it may not have been serviced
    properly (another firm did the cleaning last fall).  As I recall,
    there were more than one lubrication points. 
    
    Gary

    re .7
    Also be careful not to overlubricate a circulator. Too much can
    ruin one quickly. 

    A late, and probably not very helpful, reply:
    
    Over here (UK) a severe case of nostalgia has broken out and old cast
    iron radiators, especially the ones where you can see daylight between
    the flutes, are commanding ridiculous prices. Several manufacturers are
    even making replicas of them. So check it out before you dump yours, it
    could help pay for the conversion. I'm still having trouble with the
    language differences - are baseboards the flat panel type of radiator?
    If they are then that is what most people have here and the usual rule
    for antiques (rarity => value) applies to the old sort here.
    
    Anyway, good luck with the conversion. You've probably finished it by
    now anyway!
    
    Dick

    Dick --

    I'll send you a cast-iron radiator through interoffice mail and split
    the selling price with you.  It may take a few days for me to lift it
    into my car and bring it into the office.

    I hope that you are like me and don't believe in smiley faces, and that
    irony should be self-evident (cast-irony in this case). On second
    thoughts though, perhaps this is an opportunity for a little
    import/export on the side.
    
    Dick
    

    I have a FHW baseboard heating system that won't shut off.
    
    Lately with the good weather comming on I've turned my thermostats
    all the way down as I don't need to heat the house.  What I have
    noticed is that the baseboards keep on radiating heat, what could
    the problem be?  I would like to see if it is something I can fix
    or adjust before I call a plummer.  I have three different zones
    and the other two zones are fine.  
    
    A list of possible problems and ways to attack them would be 
    greatly appreciated.
    
    						- Dino -
    

    I'd bet you have a tankless water heater.
    
    When the furnace comes on to heat the water, it also heats the water
    in the boiler (if that's what it's called - the water that gets
    circulated in the radiant heaters).  This water then 'gravity feeds'
    or circulates very slowly due to hot water rising.  The baseboards
    radiate heat due to the warm water in the lowest or zone closest
    to the furnace.
    
    In order to stop this, you are going to have to put a shut off valve
    in the loop or close the valve that's there.
    
    Don't forget to write yourself a note to turn it back on in the
    fall or you're going to be embarressed when you pay the plumber
    $85 to turn the valve on for you.

                  
    Is the boiler running occasionally?

       IF Yes THEN 
    	    {
       	    IF hot water heated is by the boiler
               THEN try turning down the temperature of the hot water.

            IF No OR IF (turning down water temp doesn't work)
    	      	  THEN try disconnecting the thermostat.
    	       }
    	IF No THEN
    
    	    Call your local exorcist.  ;-)
    

    Hi,
        Most systems should have a device called a backflow preventer,
    in line, to prevent the heated water from convecting back up the
    cold water return side, when the circulator(s) are not running.
    
    Locate these, one for each zone or loop, they can be manually opened,
    so they might have been left open the last time the plumber purged
    the system.
    
    Paul

< Note 3235.3 by CSCMA::LEMIEUX >
                              -< backflow valves >-

    Yup, this is the answer.  FHW systems should not gravity
    feed.  There should be no need to close and then remember to
    open valves.  The two on my system are just beyond where the
    hot supply splits into two zones.

    I am not sure if they are backflow or not.  I tend to think
    the water will gracity feed in the same direction as the pump
    normally moves it.  I seem to recall the valve being more
    flow restrictors, the water has to be pulled through them by
    the pump.

    Peter Duke

    
    < RE .4 >
    
                I couldn't remember the brand name yesterday, so I looked
    it up.....The name most commonly used for these devices is "Flow
    Check"...and some can be manually opened up for service. The ones
    that I have worked with have a thumb screw on top, to open and close
    them, in order to be able to purge the system of any air, at a faster
    pace than would be capable with the restriction of the valve in
    place.
    
     Paul L.
    
    
    

Sometimes the check mechanism can stick (due to sediment, etc.).  Work the 
lever or whatever back and forth a number of times.  This may stop your
problem and eliminate the need for a plumber.  I had the same problem one time 
and the lever trick did the job.

Good luck,

Ernie

    Wait a second guys.  The circulator is on the cold return side.
    The check valve is on the (actually anywhere in the loop) but the
    direction is so that the hot water flows out of the boiler towards
    the radiators.  An open check valve is exactly what you want to
    have.  It prevents water from flowing back towards the furnace due
    to circulator pull from another loop or some other force.  If the
    check valve is stuck open then he'll have the problem he's complaining
    about.  If the check valve is working properly he'll STILL have
    the problem!  The problem is not the check valve.
    
    The problem is that heat is circulating unneccessarily.  Check valves
    do nothing to prevent that.
    
    The hot water will naturally flow due to hot water rising.  The
    only ways to prevent that is to close a valve or not to heat the
    water in the first place.

    One solution would be to have a motorised valve for each zone or, better
    still (in my opinion), thermostatic radiator valves. Then any part of
    the circuit not requiring heat will actually stop the flow through it.
    
    I find that the "unwanted" hot water trickling through the system can
    be put to good advantage in the summer. I leave the thermostatic valve
    on the bathroom radiator open even though the heating timer is set to
    "off". Because the boiler still runs to produce hot tapwater some hot
    water finds its way to the bathroom radiator ( but no other radiator)
    and keeps the towels dry.
    
    Dick
    
    

    
    The valves in question here are a combination check and flow
    restriction.  The pump is on the return line in a FHW and
    pulls the water through the base boards or what have you and
    overcomes the restriction of the valve(s) in question.  The
    check function prevent reverse flow through other zone(s) and
    the restricting action prevents gravity feed.  The 'handle'
    mentioned defeats the restriction for easier purging of air
    and allow gravity for some heat in the event of pump failure.

    I have a FHW system with 'tankless' domestic hot water.  The
    only thing required to stop the heat in turn down the
    thermostat, no valves, etc.  The boiler and everything else
    remains the same year round.

    Peter Duke

    
     .9 is right. There should NEVER be a reason to change valve positions
    between winter and summer on tankless FHW systems. The valve(s)
    in question (if properly adjusted) will prevent ALL gravity feed
    while STILL allowing normal heat delivery. I had the same problem
    as the person in the base note - gravity feed of the hot water from
    the furnace to the baseboards. (not noticed during cold weather)
    The only thing wrong with the system was the position of the valve.
    (I had fooled with it) I turned the valve back down (clockwise)
    and the system worked properly.
    
    					Kenny

    I did'nt see anyone ask if the zones were controlled with Zone valves
    with one master circulator pump, or a pump for each zone.
    
    If the first is true, then one of the zone valves is stuck open.
    This can be tested by moving the manual level up or down( depending
    on the orientation of the valve.  If resistance to movement is felt
    then the zone valve is closed as it should be. If no resistance
    is felt, then the zone valve is open.  The problem is either electrical
    ,i.e., the thermostat is calling for heat, or mechancial, i.e,
    something is wrong with the zone valve body, or solenoid. Be aware
    than zone valves really are not solenoid operated. What looks like
    a solenoid is really a heater wire & bi-metallic strip connected
    to a plunger that moves the valve open or closed with almost
    imperceptably slow speed.
    
    If your setup is a circulator for each zone, then one of the "flow
    checks" is stuck open. Contrary to some suggestions in this note
    (and in agreement with others), the flow check actually does a 
    couple of things, both having to do with unwanted water circulation
    when the pump  is *off*.  There is a flapper inside that prevents
    backflow in the system, i,e. it is a check valve so the system won't
    thermosyphon in the direction opposite to the pump direction.
    
    The second characteristic is that it also prevents thermosyphon
    in the same direction as the pump flow, but only if the pump is
    off.  There is a weight or spring or something inside the "flow
    check" which allows the flapper to open only if there is sufficient
    pressure (from the pump) to open it.
    
    I make sure my flow checks are installed with "Unions" so the unit
    can be removed and checked if I'm having a problem.  However a 
    sharp tap to the body with the handle of a scredriver might dislodge
    the flapper if its stuck.  Otherwise you'll have to remove it to
    clean it or replace it with a new one.
    
                             

    re .11
    
    Thanks for putting that in.  I think you is absolutely right!
    I didn't stop to think that it took a certain minimal flow to open
    the check valve.
    
    He may not have any check valves in the system.  I didn't until
    I installed them.

    So it's been a week since the problem was first reported to this
    notes file.... was the problem ever resolved ??

    I want to thank everyone for there advise and help.  Alot of the
    things mentioned here were very helpfull.  After I read these notes
    I went into the basement to look at my set up.  I have four zones
    with a pump for each zone.  I was looking at the setup keeping in
    mind what I read here, and was trying to make a match with what
    I read.  I forgot to bring a hardcopy of these notes with me so
    after awhile of looking at the setup I knew I should have had these
    answers with me.  I was going to print them out the next day and
    go back into the basement again, this time hoping to figure out
    what the problem was.  But the strangest thing happened!  The
    baseboards STOPPED generating heat!  I did not do anything!  So
    I figured I'd watch them for  a few days and see what happens. 
    Well its been two weeks and they have not come back on!  
    	I don't know what happened, but the fact is everything is working
    fine now.  The only thing I can figure is that some value(or something)
    was stuck and then became unstuck(non-plummers explanation).
    	I want to thank all of you for your help.  Even though I didn't
    have to use it now, changes are I might have to in the future and
    possibly someone else out there might have the same problem, and
    by reading this note it might help them.
    	
    						- Dino -
    
    P.S. Any ideas on why it works ok now?
    

    Has anyone installed the Danex or Thermodyne baseboards ?  If so,
    how do you like the system ?  I just completed the heat loss
    calculations for our house and the Danex product will provide
    enough heat for the second floor, but is marginal for the first
    floor.  I plan on using Danex on the second floor, but am leaning
    towards slant-fin for the first floor.

    I would appreciate any comments from anyone who has lived in a
    house with Danex or Thermodyne radiant heat.


    Mark

Well, to resurrect the saga of .0, I got through last winter on that loop
with a shot of WD-40 into the works of the motor, and it helped off and on.
I finally broke down and took the motor in for repair.
I'm not sure what they did (I didn't get to talk to the guy who did the work),
but the line connectors for the motor are new, so the electronic module
at the tail of the motor must have been replaced.  It cost just under $60.
They would have sold me a whole new motor for $85, I guess I should have
taken them up on it.

But to the point of this entry.....

I've noticed that the TACO circulator pumps have a relief action when the
pump shaft is pressed toward the pump.  It happened to me last night 
while re-installing the motor.  I noticed that the deflection needed
to cause the pump to "leak" is VERY small.  The motor shaft has a spring
coupling that needs to be installed under tension to keep the pump
from relieving itself.

Questions:  
   What is the purpose of the relief mechanism?
   What will cause it to work in normal operation based on pressing in
      on the shaft?
   Is there some other relief action (internal pressure?) that will cause
      activation?
   Is the amount of tension in the spring coupling critical?

- tom powers]

    We have old cast-iron radiators.  When we had our kitchen remodeled,
    the radiator was in the way of the cabinets, so we had it removed.
    Now we need heat in the kitchen.  We're interested in a kickspace
    heater, but all the plumbers we've talked to say that we'd need
    a whole separate zone for a kickspace heater, because you can't
    mix copper and cast iron in the same zone.  Can anybody out there
    explain why?

    
    Makes sense, the copper's better thermal conductivity will heat up
    faster than the CI. So your kitchen bakes while the rest of the CI
    radiators are struggling to catch up because the copper radiators are
    bleeding the heat away from the lines. This assumes FHW heat.
    
    I'd look into adding the zone.
    
    CdH
    

You may get dissimilar metal corrosion between the copper and cast iron
sections.  This will lead to leaks and ruined plumbing.

I've seen blueprints that specify that brass fittings be used in plumbing where
iron piping and copper piping are attached, but they didn't specify the reason.
My guess is the brass reduces/eliminates the dissimilar metal corrosion.

-Mike

    
    I don't agree that CI & Cu are incompat. as far as corrosion.
    This is a simular set-up as the auto, CI block & Cu radiator.
    I would agree though with it's heat conductivity being diff.
    
    Can't the water flow be regulated thru the new radiator?
    

re .8:

>    I don't agree that CI & Cu are incompat. as far as corrosion.
>    This is a simular set-up as the auto, CI block & Cu radiator.

..separated by an insulating rubber hose...  (also the auto antifreeze has
anticorrosion agents to resist this)

-Mike

    
    But if you reduce the flow at the copper radiator, you reduce the flow
    in the whole zone, since they're on the *same zone*. I don't think that
    will solve the problem. Realize that I am not an HVAC engineer and I am 
    just guessing at the reasoning. the corrosion theory sounds plausible
    too in an open loop system like most FHW systems.
    
    CdH
    

    I'm in the process of renovating an old house which has hot water
    cast iron radiators, and discussed the possible use of copper finned
    baseboard in the new addition with my heating contractor. This was
    his response:
    
    Copper requires hotter water temperatures to operate efficiently,
    compared to cast iron. (I forget the specific temps., but could
    get them if anyone is interested.)
    
    If the existing boiler is set up to deliver water at the temperature
    required by cast iron (radiators or baseboard, makes no diff), the
    copper finned portions of the zone will never get up to proper
    operating temp..  Putting the copper units on a separate zone doesn't
    really help, because that does not impact the temperature of the
    water that the boiler delivers.
    
    This contractor has an excellent reputation, and is a famly friend,
    so I'm pretty confident that I'm getting the "straight poop".  My
    solution is to stick with the cast iron for reasons of overall
    efficiency, and use a set back thermostat.  I'm also trying to work
    out putting the house on two zones, each with set backs, to allow
    the most flexibility in balancing comfort against cost.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Phil 

    My house has a FHW  system  with both cast iron radiators (bathroom and
    kitchen) and finned tube baseboard heat  (rest  of  house)  .   All the
    piping is copper.  The connection to  cast  iron  is  done with a brass
    sweat to thread fitting.  This has all  been  in  place  since 1956, so
    it's pretty clear corrosion is not a problem.  

    
>    Copper requires hotter water temperatures to operate efficiently,
>    compared to cast iron. (I forget the specific temps., but could
>    get them if anyone is interested.)
 
I agree with this as a generality, but it is true only  because  most  cast
    iron  radiators have much more surface area per unit length to transfer
    heat to  the  room than finned baseboard.  Baseboard, with it's smaller
    surface area, needs  higher  water  temperatures  (or  more  length) to
    transfer the same amount  of  heat  to  the  room.    It has absolutely
    nothing to do with one being made of copper and the other being made of
    cast iron.
    
    
    My (low cost) recommendation is to add  as  much  baseboard heat in the
    kitchen as will fit, and install a valve so that if you end up with too
    much heat you can reduce the flow of water.    You will only have to do
    this "tuneing" once.
    
    Any intelligent  installation  will have all the radiators/baseboards in
    plumbed in parallel,  not  series,  so you can regulate the flow to the
    kitchen with no effect on the other radiators.
    
    IMO the company who  told you to add an extra zone is a shark who smells
    blood (your lack of knowledge) in the water.
    
    Oh, and you can legally  add  the  baseboard  yourself,  because  it is
    HEATING, not PLUMBING.  All pipe  after  the  backflow preventer in the
    line feeding water to the boiler is HEATING.
    
    George Dvorak
   

    Dissimilar metals will setup an action where an electric current is
    created which will erode one metal and make deposits on the other.  This
    action has a name which escapes me right now (it begins with G).
    Anyway, the fix is to put brass between copper and iron and the
    separation of the copper from the iron will significantly slow the
    process of the copper dissolving and flowing towards the iron. 

    This action is described in other plumbing notes, I know because
    I wrote it.  I will try and find the note or bring in my references
    and give more poop.
     
    This in not to say that this would be a reason enough to not mix
    copper FHW with iron FHW but should be considered in the plan.

re .12:

>    IMO the company who  told you to add an extra zone is a shark who smells
>    blood (your lack of knowledge) in the water.

    As I said in my original note, *several* heating contractors said
    it's not a good idea to mix copper and cast iron in the same zone.
    The latest one suggested using cast iron to save money.  He's not
    pushing kickspace heating, we are.  With cast iron, we'd probably
    need two radiators and lose a lot of space to heat the kitchen
    adequately.

re all:

    Keep those cards and letters coming.  I'm amazed at all the very
    different answers I'm getting.

    We had a choice, and decided to leave the old electric kickboard heater
    in place.  We rarely turn it on, maybe a couple of hours per year, so
    it was the right solution for us.  Whether that's a suitable option for
    you depends upon your usage pattern (we mostly just use it to cook,
    which means there's usually another heat source in operation), how much
    heat the kitchen gets from other rooms (ours gets a lot), and so on.
    
       Gary

    Perhaps I  worded  my  "shark"  comment  a  bit  strongly.  Perhaps the
    heating  contractors you  talked  to  talk  to  each  other  and  their
    "folklore" tells them not  to  mix copper and cast iron.  They probably
    don't have a clue about the math/physics behind heat transfer and could
    care less, so they talk in  terms of "can't do that" rather than "if we
    do this, and this, it will work".
    
    However, if you call up the contractor who  did  my  mix  of copper and
    cast iron in 1956, (and I don't know who  it  was)  I  am sure he would
    disagree with them.  It is all on one zone, BTW.
    
    The  key  issue  is  having  enough  radiator/baseboard surface area to
    transfer enough  heat  to  keep  the  room to your liking.  The thermal
    conductivity of the  iron  and the copper are both so much greater than
    the heat transfer abilities  of  a  radiator in natural convection that
    the CU/iron difference is lost in the noise.
    
    

    regarding defective flo-check valves
    
    I just had a heating system put in...3 zones.  Three flo-check valves
    were defective.  There has been a general recall, plumbing supply
    houses purged there stock, and "new improved stuff" should now be
    available.  Of course, now that I am here I forgot the name of the
    company....but on the valve it said  <company name> 619 Flo-check.
    	So if you had work done this fall...you might want to check this
    out.
    Ric

    
    To those of you who have installed FHW, I have some questions
    about some of the details.  I got one set of answers from a 
    plumber, but he could not really say why, he just said "'cause
    that's the way we did it".

    I would think running the baseboard sections within a zone in
    parallel is better than in series.  The plumber says series is
    better, just start with the section farthest from the boiler.

    For bleeders, the plumber says to put one in each room and place
    it at the end of the run (not the beginning).  Here I would think
    it did not matter.


    Thanks,  
    Mark
    

    A house that I'm considering purchasing has a FHW heating system.
    The boiler is steel and I'm wondering how well these compare to a
    cast iron boiler.  Also there is no seperate hot water tank (is this
    what they mean by tankless?)  How good are tankless systems in terms of
    durability? I've heard conflicting opinions from different plummers. 
    
    Thanks 
    
    Mike
    
    
    
    

There are LOTS of notes listed in 1111.50, .51, and .52 about FHW systems and 
all sorts of boiler topics - you will probably find a lot of useful information 
there.  I didn't see any topics which specifically addressed the question of
Steel vs. Cast Iron boilers, so go ahead and address that here.

Notes 89, 496, 532, 1949, 2386 and 3476 discuss tankless hot water systems.  
Please don't add this note to that already lengthy list.

Thanks,
Paul [Moderator]

    
    
     We just had out steel boiler replaced with a cast iron one. I believe the
    cast iron is supposed to last 30 years ? (I hope) They told us that the
    life expectancy of a steel boiler is about 10 years. The steel boiler
    was 60% efficient and our new cast iron is 87%. for an extra $700.00
    they also added a hot water tank to our previously 'tankless' system.
    This has increased the hot water pressure 300%.  We went with Clafin
    Donahue in Worcester, Ma. , the whole system ran 3500.00 . We only had
    to put 25% down and the rest is interest free payments for 2 years.
    
    
     Bob
    

    Mine is cast iron and is at least 30 years old.  It was made by
    American Standard and used to be heated by an oil burner.  It was
    converted around 6 years ago and is now heated by natural gas. 
    It has beaten the life of steel boilers that belongs to, or did
    belong to, relatives I know.  If it ever goes, I will replace it
    with another cast iron boiler, unless something better comes along.
    

    My current Burnam/America steel boiler has a 25 year guarantee.
    		       -HOWEVER-
    This boiler is a replacement for a Burnham/America steel boiler
    that lasted less than 4 years. Burnham redesigned the boiler and
    replaced all with this new model, now almost 6 years old.

That's a pro-rated 25 year warrenty. Check out how much your 
paying for after 10 years, then compare with a 25 year warrenty 
on a cast iron....

daryll

        I had a cast-iron boiler that burned out in 9 years.  (The
        burn started at the joint between sections -- very similar to
        the Challenger accident, actually.)

        Bob

If sections within one zone are in parallel, how do you know how much
water flows through each section?  Scale might build up in one so that 
another zone gets most of the water and hence most of the heat.  The
section with the longer pipe run has more dynamic resistance, so it is
likely to have less flow.  The way the pipes are connected might affect
the dynamic resistance, too.

If they are in series, the same amount of water flows through each section.
The water temperature decreases as it flows, so that the last section
gets less heat per foot of pipe than earlier sections, but I've been
told that it doesn't drop all that much, so that's not an important effect.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Bleeders are used to bleed air from the system, as I understand it.
    The air in the system will cause noise and poor heating.  The highest
    point in the system, the end of the run, would be the best place from
    which to bleed the air.
    
    Please correct me is I am wrong.

>    Bleeders are used to bleed air from the system, as I understand it.
>    The air in the system will cause noise and poor heating.  The highest
>    point in the system, the end of the run, would be the best place from
>    which to bleed the air.

There is probaly no single relevant "highest point in the system" at which
to install a single bleeder.  The pipes will often have to go down to traverse
a room boundary, so you will need a bleeder every place a run goes down
(as through the floor, perhaps) to get from room to room.  Each run will
rise as it traverses its room, and you can't accumulate all that many
rooms' worth of rise before your radiators would be two feet off the floor.

Note too that "Air Scoops" and such are installed at the boiler end of
the whole system, very near the lowest point in the system.
Get the air out where you can.

- tom]

I was visiting my sister of the holidays.  They have a two zone system operating
off of one pump with some type of in line controller one each.  The upper zone
was operating fine.  The lower level, (after running all day) couldn't keep up 
with the cold.  The first baseboard (BB) on line was extremely hot.  Everyone
there after was progressively cooler to the last on line.  So, I couldn't 
pinpoint a particular air bound culpret.  I looked for bleeders on every BB and
found none.  In the basement I found a few bleeders but all were at the LOW
points downstream from the BBs.  Will bleeding these help?  If bled, will I
have to replenish the boiler?

Any suggestions
Frank

    
      The most likely cause is that the water is flowing very slowly
    in the the lower-level loop. That way, all of the heat is removed
    in the first (few) sections. This could be caused by a lot of air
    in the loop, or it could also be cause by the zone valve not opening
    all the way. (zone valves fail fairly regularly - so check it)
    
    			Good luck,
    					Kenny

Thanks for the quick reply Ken.  I'll check it out.

Frank

I just called my bro-in-law.  It turned out to be the circulator pump and AIR.
The service people informed them that the second floor worked thanks to gravity.
The first floor would have worked on gravity it it weren't for excess air in the
system.  Hope this info is NOT needed by anyone else but is usefull if it is.

Frank

    
    Can anyone explain the purpose of a SWAPPER pump in my 2 zone system.  
    This pump seems to run, and suck a lot of heat out of the boiler even 
    when there is no call for heat from either of the 2 zones.  
    
    Any help would be appreciated.  
    
    /Jeff

    This is sort of an odd problem, but nonetheless very concerning.
    
    We have been feeling a vibration in our house for the past couple
    of months.  It seems to originate somewhere in the back of our house;
    the vibration can be heard and felt strongest in the back of the house,
    most prominently at the left rear (as you are facing the house).
    
    We have a Gambrel style house.  It is situated on an incline such that
    at the front of the house the first floor (kitchen, etc.) are at
    ground level and in the rear of the house the first floor is at second
    story level.  The problem is that we cannot identify the source of
    the vibration.  It sounds and feels like the reverberation of a motor,
    however, it doesn't happen at regular intervals.  We have checked out
    the funace in the basement, but that doesn't appear to be the problem.
    In fact, standing in the basement when the vibration occurs it seems
    to be coming from above.  My husband said that standing on the deck
    outside a few weeks ago, he thought he felt the deck vibrating, but
    I was out there the other day for about 15 minutes during a period 
    where this vibration was happening frequently and didn't feel anything.
    I have talked to the neighbor who lives in that direction whose house
    is about 100 yards away and they have not noticed it.
    
    We've also noticed it more frequently on very cold (less than 32
    degrees), windy days  (don't know if this is coincidental or not).
    We have FHW/Gas heat and, although this is not a regular occurance,
    I have noticed that at times this vibration is coincidental with the
    water coming through the pipes.  If there were air in the pipes, would
    it be a cause for vibration?  We can hear the water rather loudly as
    it is being pumped through.  This is our only hypothesis for now,
    unless it truly is some external source.  
    
    Any suggestions for pinpointing the problem would be helpful.  
    
    Thanks in advance for your help.
    
    Valerie

    The deck mentioned in the base note is at basement level (sliders
    coming from basement to deck) if this helps at all.
    
    Thanks

    I doubt that the FHW could be causing the problem, we had frequent
    bouts of air in the system but never experienced any house-vibration.
    If it is coming from inside the house look for some relatively large
    vibrating or rotating mass, such as a loaded washing machine in the
    spin cycle or a large attic fan that is not balanced. Sometimes a 
    large compressor, such as in an old refrigerator, can cause a few
    seconds of vibration when it shuts off.
    
    It may be coming from outside, anyplace in an area where there may 
    be construction work, I would check within a 1/4 mile from your house
    to see if there is heavy equipment working.

    Re: .2
    
    Major appliances have been ruled out.  None are cycling on or off at
    the time the vibration occurs.  If it were an external source such as
    heavy equipment, wouldn't it be likely that neighbors would notice it
    as well?

    Wood is an excellent resonator of vibration and hence it can make it
    difficult to find the cause.  A gas hot water heating system requires
    that probably both the gas pipes and the water pipes will be attached
    to hangers against or close to the floor joints and during the heat
    runs will be going through studs.  Vibration can come from the hot
    water pump and even though you won't notice much at the furnace it may
    be transmitting vibration through the pipes into the wood.  Secondly,
    the hot water causes pipes to expand a little and that will also be
    notice throughout the house.  
    
    For example,  the drum of our gas dryer vibrates.  In the basement, you
    can hear it, but it is not big deal.  That vibration however, is
    transmitted through the gas line and in is twice as loud in the floor
    above and can be notcie in the second floor, if everything is very
    quiet.  So don't underestimate this sound transmission.  
    
    To check this, turn on the heat and then put your hand on the hot water
    pump and see if it vibrates at all, then check the pipe and see if it
    is vibrating.  Check the installation and try to put some sound
    deadening between the pipe hanger and the pipe at the first contact
    from the furnace.  
    
    Good luck

    You mentioned that on windy days it seems more noticable. Could it be
    the wind moving your deck which is attached to your house which is then
    vibrating?
    

    RE: .5
    
    Well, it is a rather large deck (15 X 25 approx). But the deck is
    attached to the bottom of the foundation of the house (basement has
    sliders out to deck) and the deck is built very solidly, so I'm not
    sure your average 30 - 40 mile gust of wind would shake the deck such
    that it jars the foundation, but then I don't know much about this
    stuff.  Maybe it could?

    Just to isolate the cause from being some electrically-powered source
    inside your house, you might consider shutting off all power at the
    main for some extended period of time.  Naturally, if you live in the
    Northeastern US, you may have to wait 'til the spring.  You might also
    want to check with *all* your neighbors.

    Why not just have someone shut the power off for a minute while you
    stand in a vibrating spot?
    
    Or... don't consider it a bug, consider it a feature!! Do you know
    how many quarters get spent in cheap hotel rooms trying to get the
    same effect you're trying to eliminate??  ;^)
    
    Edd

    re: .9
    
    The vibration seems to be mostly in the wall and not the floor.  It
    only lasts around 3 seconds at a time, so the thrill factor is minimal.
    ;^)

    Applying DFD principles (Diagnosis from a Distance), if it happens
    more often on cold, windy days, then your heating system is a prime
    suspect.  You should not hear water running in the pipes of your
    system, but that may not be a factor.  When the heat "comes on"
    and the pipes start to expand, they can be rubbing against their
    passage holes in the walls or floors for a few seconds until they've
    expanded, then they can repeat the process when they're cooling down.
    If they're visible, check for a tight fit of the heating pipes
    through the floors and partitions in the rear section of the house.
    
    pbm
    

    Does your home have awnings? If so, and they are rolled-up, the
    wind, and yes, even a "moderately good BREEZE will cause the cord
    to REALLY throb. The same as someone running their fingers across
    the tight cords. Took us almost half a day to find the source of
    noise. Solved same by loosening the tie-down cords. Loose, they
    loose,they look a little sloppy, but NO noise.
        Hope this helps.
                                                     Jim

    
    The awnings are a specific case of a more general possibility: 
    
    There are some fairly freaky physical phenomena that you might look at 
    as a last resort - it is conceivable that the structure of your house
    has a natural resonance that is kicked off by the wind.  The Pheasant
    Lane Mall in Nashua also has a natural resonance much as you describe -
    it's been studied at length and they've decided there's not much they
    can do about it and it's basically harmless. In the most extreme
    example of this an entire suspension bridge collapsed in the 1950's
    because the wind triggered an undamped oscillation.  The bridge was
    built 100% to specs but the designers were unlucky enough that the
    configuration, length, and orientation of the members was just right to
    make the thing into sort of a huge wind instrument.  
    
    I wouldn't worry about the latter, but you might power off the entire
    house and all mechanical systems on a windy day and see what happens.

    re.0   How often does it occur , how many times a day, and for what
    intervals (you mentioned 3 minutes or so). Does the duration ever vary?
    You also mentioned it happens when it is cold. Are there any other
    common deomanators? Tryy shutting off your heat when it happens, if the 
    vibrating stops you have a clue. If many things are suspect, maybe you
    want to try elimanating, them one at a time.....
    
    keep us posted... inquiring minds want to know.....

    How far are you from a truck route? I live about 6 miles from I190
    and during certain conditions I can tell when a truck/s are 
    barreling down the hi-way. It seems that the gravel/dirt haulers
    are the biggest sources. When they travel through the center of town 
    it can be real noticeable and that about a mile a way. I think it
    depends on how the ledge runs because it will transmit vibration 
    very nicely. 
    
    Ray 

    It's probably nothing serious. Maybe the termites ate your sills
    and are working their way up through the house. When it all finishes
    settling you won't have the vibration anymore.

    If this is real low frequency vibration (oh, 10 - 20 cycles per
    second) it may be that your chimney is a giant "flute".  I had a
    similar problem when the burner guy cleaned out the bottom of my
    chimney which made the distance between the bottom and where the
    flue pipe enters taller.  It felt like maybe 1.3 on the Richter
    scale - not enough to knock pictures off the wall, but enough to
    to make 'em tilt a little.  
    
    In your case, wind across the top of your chimney may be enough
    to trigger this phenomenon.  
    
    Carl.

    Where do you live?  Several months ago I had something similar
    happening almost every morning around 6:00.  It sounded like one
    of the windows in back of the house was rattling at certain intervals.
    Never did track down the source of it, and it never came back.
    
    Also, a few years ago we had a strange vibration through the whole
    house.  No matter where you went it sounded like the vibration was
    coming from another part of the house.  It turned out that a valve
    on the town water line was causing the problem - out in the street
    you could feel the ground shaking over the water line.
    
    Next time it vibrates, try shutting off electrical power as mentioned a
    few replies back; then if that doesn't do it, try shutting off the
    water at the meter (assuming you're on city water). 

    Haven't had time to employ any of your suggestions, yet, but just to
    answer some questions asked in earlier replies...
    
    House is in Chelmsford.
    There is a lot of truck traffic on the street, but the vibration has
    not been coincidental with passing trucks.
    We are in earshot of 495 and Rt 3, but it's doubtful if that is the
    problem.
    
    It does not occur at a set time or at set intervals.
    
    This vibration was occurring a lot this past Sunday (was having 
    birthday party for 3 yr old so we couldn't investigate), but it
    was a warm day, however it was windy.
    
    If we determine the cause, I'll post it here.  I will shut off the
    electricity to try to eliminate any internal electrical source (if 
    only it lasted longer than two or three seconds, it would be much
    easier to track down).  Thanks for all your help.
    
    Valerie

    A plumber friend of mine,(at least I thought he was) just replaced
    my expansion tank and purged the system. FHW by gas. I just got
    the bill $141.00. The tank was $39 the rest was labor. Don't know
    how long he was at the house, but the banging and pressure relief
    valve going off stopped.

    That's quite reasonable for a plumber.  To replace a switch in
    a drain pump, ours charged $39 for the switch, plus labor bringing
    it to $105.  Took about 1/2 hour.  Now that I have the old switch
    and know the part number and watched him do it, this will not
    be repeated.
    
    pbm
    

> < Note 563.17 by CIMNET::MOCCIA >

>    That's quite reasonable for a plumber.  To replace a switch in
>    a drain pump, ours charged $39 for the switch, plus labor bringing
>    it to $105.  Took about 1/2 hour.  Now that I have the old switch
>    and know the part number and watched him do it, this will not
>    be repeated.

Labor at $132 per hour????
Even charging for travel time, as some do, isn't this a little outlandish?

    	The way most tradesmen work is they have a minimum hourly charge.
    It appears that the plumber in question has a 2Hr min.
    
    		So 2hr @ $33/hr =  $66    ($33 for a plumber is reasonable)
    			 	   $39  materials
    				--------
    				  $105  Total
    
    

I guess this is as good a place as any for this.

Can anyone explain what is involved in the process of restarting a 
boiler after you've run out of oil?

As an aside, we've got a 500 gallon in ground tank. There's no 
guage and aside from "sticking" it, is there any way of checking 
on how much oil you have? Can a guage be installed as an 
afterthought?

We've been estimating for the past couple years and have been 
doing pretty well, since this is not our primary source of heat 
(we use coal), scheduled deliveries really aren't for us. 

Running out isn't all that much of a problem, having to be there for 
the oil man to get in to restart it is. 

Thanks
daryll

    I'm not sure about the situation with an underground tank; it might
    have some special pump or something.  If so, you'll have to figure
    out how to prime it.
    
    For the simple case with gravity feed system, you simply open the
    bleeder nut on the burner (near the bottom and usually near the feed
    line), put a container under it (or a hose on it to a container), and
    push the red restart button on the burner control box.  This will
    start the burner and draw oil.  Watch what comes out the bleeder.
    When its fairly strong and bubble free, close the bleeder.  The
    burner should continue to run after that.
    
    If the burner fails to continue to run (and the system requires that
    it should), repeat the process a second time.  If that fails, WAIT
    AT LEAST A HALF HOUR BEFORE TRYING AGAIN!
    
    The other choice is to be home and watch the oil man do it.  After
    that, you'll know how.
    

     I have a question about the code for running FHW pipes.
    I am currently finishing the second floor of our house. When it
    was built, the builder installed two pipes at either end of the
    house for a feed and return to the second floor. Now I am trying
    to figure out where the heat should be and where it should not be.
    The floor is T & G plywood. And the framing is 2 x 4.
     Now the issue: I was told that I could not `notch' the heating
    pipes into the front or back outside walls where the heating pipes
    were going between rooms or I did not want heat because they were
    load bearing walls. I really do not want to remove the flooring
    and run the pipes up and down thru the floor. Has anyone heard of
    this `code' ? If so how did you resolve the issue ? I had an idea
    of doubling up on the 2 x 4's side by side where I wanted the pipes
    to be in the wall and notching both. This should leave an even stronger
    wall. Hope I didn't ramble on to much. 
    
    Thanks
    Chris

    You run radiator enclosures all the way around.  The is where the pipe
    has fins on it within the enclosure.
    
    It's a continuous run around the perimeter of my second floor.

    Help me correct my thinking (and get hot water back in the house).
    
    In a tankless FHW system, the burner comes on *whenever* the boiler
    water temp goes below the LO setting of the control box.  This keeps
    the system ready to provide heat as well as to service any hot water
    demand.  My problem is that yesterday we had no hot water and the
    boiler temp was down to 100 degrees.  After investigating all the
    possible causes I could think of (and finding no problems), I raised
    a thermostat upstairs.  Poof.  On it came and ran till the HI limit
    was satisfied and so on.   Not surprisingly, this brought plenty of
    hot water.
    
    I then lowered the thermostat, drew hot water, and watched the boiler
    temp fall below the LO limit.  How come?  The system seems to know
    when the temp is below the limit on a call for heat, but ignores that
    fact with the hot water.
    
    BTW, its a new boiler/burner I installed last fall.  I tested its
    response to a demand for hot water and heat at both zones then.
    Everything worked.  Suggestions, other than get used to cold
    showers/baths, welcome.
    

RE: .15

	Sounds like the lo switch is bad. To verify this, please do,
heat the water like you did before....

		TURN-OFF POWER to boiler.

		With a continuity checker, ohm meter, placed
		across the switch contacts; turn on the
		hot hater faucet upstairs.

		Observe the meter to see if it contacts when it
		reaches the low temperature.

	I suggested heating the water first, because it may be the switch will
activate at very low temperatures like 50 degrees.

	If the switch activates then your problem is somewhere else and you
saved the cost of a switch.

			Let us know what you find.
					Bill

    As per .16, I tested the LO switch circuit and it seems to be
    functional.  After triple checking everything, I called Masi Plumbing
    and Heating (the place where I bought the boiler).
    
    They suspect "improper" wiring.  I explained that the unit was factory
    wired except for white and black for power and the thermostats.  He
    said "right, but check the factory wiring for a loose connection."
    The good news is that all parts are covered under warranty for one
    year so long as I return the defects.
    
    I'll recheck all the wires again tonight for a fourth time and then
    start lopping off a piece at a time.  Other than a bad LO limit switch,
    what could cause the burner to ignore low boiler temperature?
    

Could it be the wrong controller, or a controller wired incorrectly?  Our system
is deliberately wired to behave as your is, because we don't have a tankless
hot water system.

Or, as long as yours is behaving this way, maybe you should just install an
Amtrol or SuperStore.  We got ours (SS) because of recommendations in this file.

   Gary

    Still don't know what was wrong, but a new aquastat fixed it.  Curious
    to note that the Honeywell control is OEM specific to the Burnham
    boiler.  Curiouser is that the part number for the control I got to
    replace mine changed by a single digit, from -1102 to -1002.
    

Note to Mod:   I checked 1111.50 for this topic and I could find it discussed.
-----------

   In my kitchen remodeling, I will be installing a FHW kick space heater
  under one of the cabinets.
   Locating the unit and wiring it is no problem. But I have a question on
  how to plumb it into the system.  The instructions are vague on how this
  is best done.  The unit is a heat exchanger, with a hot water inlet pipe and
  a hot water outlet pipe.  The unit senses when the water temp gets to 140F,
  and turns on the fan.  

   The instructions show three possible pipework arrangements:

   a.  Put the unit in series with the other existing, FHW BB piping.

          This would result in the least amount of piping, since there
          are other BB units nearby.  But, the kickspace unit has 1/2"
          copper connections, while my BB heat uses 3/4" pipe.  The instructions
          recommend that "valves be utilized to facilitate hydraulic balancing."
          
   b.  Put the unit in parellel with the existing parallel FHW BB piping, 
       all with a common return.  An option is to add a dedicated circulator
       pump that is thermostatically controlled.

          This zone is set up on a continuous loop, so this arrangement is not
          desirable.

   c.  Use potable water (i.e., from the domestic hot water line) to circulate
       through the unit.

          This arrangement is interesting, and would solve the 1/2" to 3/4"
          pipe difference, since both the unit and the HW line are 1/2".
          But would necessitate adding anther pump, which I would like to
          avoid.

 
   My preferred solution is "a", but I need help in figuring out how to
   keep the system balanced.  I believe I'd need to feed the series loop
   into the kickspace unit, but also bypass the unit with another line, and 
   add a valve in the
   bypass line.  The valve would be adjusted so that the water that cannot
   be pumped from the 3/4" main line into the 1/2" kickspace inlet would
   be bypassed.  The water needs to achieve maximum flow rate through the
   heat exchanger without acting as a bottleneck to the 3/4" pipe system.

   Has anybody installed one of these, and how did you do it?  How did it
   work out?  The unit I have is a Myson PK 90 Convector.
  

    Thanks for any info

    Steve

    I installed one of these last fall and ran into the same lack of
    instructions you did.  Apparently, these are meant to be installed by
     "real" (ie expensive) plumbers.
    
    Anyway, I hooked mine up in series with the existing loop.  I had to
    remove some baseboard radiation so I could install cabinets, so I just
    dropped the heater in where the baseboard used to be.  I used 3/4 to
    1/2" inch adapters to take care of the pipe size difference.
    
    It all seems to work fine, having just gone through a winter.  I wasn't
    too concerned with adding "resistance" to the water flow by putting it
    in series, since the flow rate really isn't that high through the
    system .
    
    Mine is an 8400 BTU unit that ended up replacing about 11 feet of
    conventional baseboard, and it keeps the kitchen very comfortable.  We
    don't even use the "high" fan setting.  It is a terrific ankle warmer!
    My wife seems to gravitate to that counter area on those cold winter
    mornings.                       
    
    Bob
      

     what you need is a couple of hydronic flow tee s from a plumbing
    supply these solder into the loop they are directional ( have a little
    scoop in them that diverts a portion of the flow to the unit & the rest
    of the flow continue s thru the loop
     you can put a balancing valve in the new unit line without affecting
    the rest of the loop

re                     <<< Note 3783.2 by SHARE::HPROCTOR >>>

>     you can put a balancing valve in the new unit line without affecting
>    the rest of the loop

      What type of valve would you recommend?  gate?  Stop/Waste?

      Thanks  Steve

    
    I have a TACO circulator which is leaking from one of the flange
    connectors.  Two questions:
    
    1) Where could I get gaskets for this repair (the lower one, mating
    to the piping) in Eastern Mass
    
    2) Do these need to be torqued to a specific setting, or is tight, just
    tight enough?
    
    Thanks.

    
    
    Having watched/helped a plumber install mine last year, here is what he
    did.   He installed unions and valves in case of problems along with a
    vent (not sure what you call these) next to the kickheater.  He
    installed a diverter that slides inside the T that feed the heater.
    This diverter feed some water up through the heater. (Check with the
    plumbing supply and make sure you ask them which way the diverter
    should be installed)
    
    Send mail if you need more description.
                        

    The gaskets that come with the units are pretty flimsy.  Replacement
    gaskets that you get from the local oil company that offers both
    service and oil are much better.  Either catch a guy in an oil company
    van (most keep the gaskets on the dash) or stop in the office.
    Cost about 2 bucks each.
    

    
    
    I'm intrigued by this toe space heater.  I've never heard/seen one and
    am baffled by the idea.  I'm also planning on refinishing my kitchen
    but am stymied by the lack of heat/wall space to put heating units on.
    Can someone describe in some detail how these units work and are set
    up?  They might be a solution to my heat/wall space dilemma.
    
    I don't have FHW BB heat but the original note seemed to indicate that
    they would work with the hot water tap from the sink???  Is this
    possible?                                                   

Spags carries 'em.  Cheap.  No torque setting I know of, I just replaced an
old circulator, and used these gaskets.  Any plumbing/heating supply house 
should carry the gaskets. Easy job.  

Steve

    The kick panel heaters are made up of finned tubing that is serpentine
    in shape, so that it looks like the coils of an a/c, laid on its side.
    There is a squirrel cage blower that turns on when the water in the unit
    reaches some pre-determined temperature, which blows air across the
    coils and out the front. The units I looked at when I was redoing a
    prev. kitchen came in 2 sizes, 4000 BTU and 8000 BTU. To operate, they
    need a flow of hot water, just like a baseboard or HW radiator. I
    believe the idea earlier in this string was to tap a RECIRCULATION loop
    off the hot water coils of the furnace to run it.
    
    Eric

    To expand a little:  These units are quite small (ours required an opening
    19" X 3 1/2" in the kickboard or whatever it's called, and measures about
    14" square).  The instructions said it could run on potable water, which
    I guess means you can hook it up to your water heater.

re                     <<< Note 3783.5 by BTOVT::MORRIS_K >>>
    
>    I don't have FHW BB heat but the original note seemed to indicate that
>    they would work with the hot water tap from the sink???  Is this
>    possible?                                                   

         Yes, according to the install instructions supplied with the unit,
         circulate water from your hot water tank through the heater by
         use of a pump.
    
         If you want a copy of the instructions (they're nothing great)
         let me know.

  Steve

    I've also seen Taco circ. pumps in Sommerville Lumber.  Not sure if
    they have the gaskets as well, but they probably do.
    
    Peter

      I've resisted as long as I can....
      
      Check with any Mexican restaurant.  They use TACO pumps to put the
      salsa on your food, so they can probably tell you where to  get  a
      good,  commercial  quality  pump.   After  all, this is a "mission
      critical" item for them!
      
      BTW,   I'd  suggest  getting  one  rated  for  the  HOTTEST  salsa
      available.  These work better and are worth the small  extra  cost
      even if you only use mild salsa.

re <<< Note 2641.14 by VMSDEV::HAMMOND "Charlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684" >>>
>
>      I've resisted as long as I can....
>      
Ummmmmm ......

And to tell  if the pump is running at the correct speed, he should go to
the nearest Spanish speaking NAPA parts dealer and pick up a TACOmeter.

Sigh.......

    Just to inform the still curious, the problem was the gutters.  We
    had new gutters installed on our house at the end of the summer.  They
    are the seamless kind and the downspout is mounted such that the
    support is fastened behind the downspout making the downspout stick
    out about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch from the clapboard (i.e., it is not mounted
    flush to the house).  Since this piece is about 30 feet long, when the
    wind blows there is a wind tunnel effect behind the downspout causing
    it to vibrate which vibrates the whole gutter which is mounted on the
    facia (sp) board which is attached to the rafters, etc, etc.
    
    We are considering taking off the current mounting configuration and
    putting on conventional mounting brackets which will make it flush to
    the house.
    
    At least we know it's nothing serious.
    
    Thanks to all who responded.
    
    Valerie

    
    If there is a long stretch between supports on the downspout, you might
    want to first try adding one or two more supports, to damp out the
    resonant vibrations caused by the wind. As an experiment, try stuffing
    rags behind the downspout where you would add the supports, to cut the
    unsupported length by half of thirds

        I've also been looking at these units for bathroom.
    Baseboard beside the toilet is a real pain.  At any rate,
    what I was told:

        Install two 'uniflow tees' in the heating loop.  Be sure
    they are installed in the correct direction.  These bypass
    some of the water in the look to the heater and account for
    the 1/2 and 3/4 inch problem.

        Don't use the water heater.  Two problems here.  The
    tubing used in most heating equipment is very thin walled and
    not designed to work with normal house pressure and you are
    running potable water through the heater which is not really
    legal.  It is done in places, but is neither legal or wise.

        I was also told something about a vent at the heater to
    bleed air.  Not sure of the details here.

        The model number your note mentions is not familiar.
    Can't remember what brand I was looking at.  It was at MASI
    in Nashua.


    Peter Duke

    Hey out there,
    	I am in the process of remodeling my upstairs.  I am at the point
    where I need to put in the baseboard heater which will eventually get
    hooked up the a new FHW furnace.  
    
    I would like to know if anyone knows of a good supply house that I could 
    purchase the baseboard??
    
    Also, a heating contractor mentioned the word "SLANT/FIN".  Is this a
    brand name of a baseboard or just the type???
    
    	Any help here would be appreciated.   Johnny C. 

    Slant/Fin is a brand name of FWH baseboard heating units. They are 
    popular with builders. It may also be somewhat important if you are 
    trying to match existing FWH baseboards. 
    
    Any good plumbing supply house should carry Slant/Fin. Also check
    Summerville Lumber. I know that Republic Plumbing Supply in Norwood, 
    Ma carries Slant/Fin. I purchased mine their when I put on my addition
    about 3/4 years ago. Prices will be quoted by the foot. ex $3.75/ft
    
    Shop around. You will find that prices will vary.
    
    Steve

    The radiator enclosure without the fins are called "dummy" baseboards.  
    They cover the piping in between the peices with the finned tubing.  So
    make 1 continuous run from the feed pipe, around the room on the
    outside walls, to the return pipe.

    I have a question on Taco circulator pump units. 
    
    Out of idle curiosity I recently took apart a  Taco  unit to see how it
    was  constructed.  In the process, a clear "water like"  liquid  leaked
    out  of the inside of the motor portion of the unit.    Problem  is,  I
    don't think it was water, because it had a slippery feeling I associate
    with antifreeze.  I think this liquid was in place to lubricate the two
    bronze  bushings on either end of the motor rotor, and to prevent water
    from entering the unit.
    
    Does  anyone know what this liquid is, and/or  what  I  can  use  as  a
    substitute?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    George Dvorak

     I'm looking for suggestions on adding a second zone to a family room
    thats located above a garage. We built the room 5 years ago and have
    been heating it with a wood stove. The room is 20 X 24 with a cathedral
    ceiling. It has 9" of insulation in the floor and ceiling and 6" in the
    walls. It also has approximately 150 sq. ft. of thermopane glass. We
    have stained pine wainscoting and oak floors with large plants and other
    items against the walls. These are some of the ideas a heating contractor
    came up with. Any comments or experiences with any of these would help.
     
      1. Add baseboard radiation along all exterior walls. This would mean
         loosing all wall space,cutting holes in oak floor and having to wrap 
         pipes in an unheated garage.
    
      2. Installing 2 blower units on outside walls facing each other.
         These units are expensive, fans are loud and require cutting out
         large sections of the waiscoting.
    
      3. Installing heating coils under the floor. This would require
         removing the sheetrock from the garage ceiling. I have never seen
         this type of heating but I guess it has been shown on This Old
         House before. Besides the pain of removing the garage ceiling it
         doesn't seem like this would be any good for an oak floor or that
         it would respond very quickly to take the chill out of the air.
         Once you heat the floor up it would probably maintain the heat
         very well but we would be turning the heat on and off during the
         cold nights and sunny days.
    
    
    Mick
    
         

This note re-opened by request of the author.  I did not realize that all three 
solutions (baseboards, corner blower units, and under-floor) were FHW options. 
The other note I pointed two was talking about electric and propane space
heaters. 

Have at it.
Paul

    How about getting a cast iron radiator or two?  We've got them in
    our house, they work fine, and they don't take up a lot of wall
    space the way baseboard heat does.  You'll probably have to find
    used ones someplace (wasn't there a note in the "For Sale" section
    advertising some a few weeks ago?)

    I think the problem is that a room so large, with a lot of glass, and
    exterior walls, it needs more than just a couple of heat sources to
    make it feel relatively even and comfortable.
    I guess the answer to your question depends on how much you're willing
    to sacrifice to have the room comfortable. I'd say the ideal heating
    format for your application would be radiant floor. I don't see how
    that could be done without ripping out the oak floor tho.
    The next best IMO would be baseboard all around.
    
    John

    
        We have 38' of wall space available and about 30' of it is below
    windows. Our windows are only 24" off the floor so a radiator would actually
    rise above the base of the windows. I don't beleive a couple would do
    the job either. We have cast iron baseboard in the rest of the house. We had a
    heat loss survey done for it and we would need 35'. At 25 dollars a foot just to 
    purchase it I don't think it would be the way to go either. We would also 
    still have the problem of not having any wall space to use for plants or anything else. 
      What we are looking for would be something that would free up the wall space and
    also do the job of heating a large area. I'm hoping someone has had some experience 
    with either the blower units or the floor coils for radiation.
    
    Thanks,
    Mick

    I installed a blower unit in a kitchen (actually a kick panel heater)
    which worked quite well. If I remember right, they were available in
    4000 and 8000 BTU models. Those are the only blower types I've had
    experience with. What about going with a standalone FHA system for that
    room alone? It would also allow you to zone it separately and not have
    the pipe freezing problem.
    
    Eric

     We also have a kick plate heater in the kitchen manufactured by Myson
    Corp. These units do work very well but the estimate we got for the
    room would mean two 20,000 BTU models at $600 a piece plus installation.
     As far as forced hot air goes I hate to start hooking up another
    system when we have plenty of room left on our boiler. I think we can work
    our way around the pipes freezing by wrapping them. The main problem we
    have is loosing all our wall space. Do you know of anyone that has used
    these large Myson heaters ?? 
    
    Thanks,
    Mick                        

In our recent remodeling, we put kick-space heaters in the kitchen AND the
living room (there was not enough wall space for the req'd baseboard rad).  The
living room one is now disconnected (the blower, that is) because of the noise! 
Especially the on-and-off nature of it.  We found ourselves regularly turning
up and down the TV volume as the blower went on and off.  Basically just plain
irritating.

    Our kitchen heater is noisy also. These are very small fans so they run
    at high speeds trying to move the air. The heaters recommended for our
    living room are 45" wide by 16" high. They are "supposed" to be quieter
    due to larger fans running at slower speeds. Also, they have a dial speed
    control which you can adjust from low to high where a kick space heater
    has a toggle switch which has three settings (off=radiant,low fan,high fan).
    
    Mick
    

What makes you say you're losing wall space just because you have baseboard 
heaters?  I wouldn't put bookcases up against all the walls, but some furniture
is ok.  Shelves can be installed, and sofas or chairs are ok if they're a
few inches from the wall.

You may also be able to juggle the heat distribution by putting a higher
efficiency baseboard in the areas that won't be covered up, such as under
the windows, with a lower efficiency baseboard in the other areas.

   Gary

     The main problem with wall space is all the plants my wife has sitting
    in front of the windows. I don't think there are too many plants that
    will survive sitting directly in front of heating vents. Thats the same
    problem with using higher effeciency units under the windows. We need 
    more heat under the windows and thats where the plants need to be 
    located for the sun. 
     Shelving would be ok but we don't have any wall space for that either.
    In a few notes back I stated that our windows were 24" off the floor.
    That was a rough guestimate. When I put a tape on them this weekend they
    are only 18". The windows also take up nearly all the wall space in the
    room. This also causes a problem when looking at the large convection
    heaters. The 20,000 btu units are 45" wide by 16" high and are supposed
    to be installed 5" off the floor. I do have some literature coming in
    from manufacturer to see if there are any "slim line" models available.
     I still think baseboard is the way to go but until I can figure out
    a way to keep the plants in front of the windows I'm stuck.
    
    Keep the ideas coming,
    
    Mick
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

>The main problem with wall space is all the plants my wife has sitting
>in front of the windows. I don't think there are too many plants that
>will survive sitting directly in front of heating vents. ...

     I've been growing plants right on top of my cast iron hot water 
radiators for years.  Some are in a pebble tray which sometimes has water 
in it, and some are directly on the radiator cover.  They must get hot, 
but they don't seem to mind!  If plants can stand that, they can surely 
stand to be in front of a baseboard.

    The room I added over my garage sounds about the same size....I added 
    baseboards to the exterior walls...I had to take down the fireboard in
    the garage but luckily it hadn't been taped/seamed/sealed. We really
    didn't "lose" any of the wall space..I wrapped the pipes in rubber
    "sleeves" and also used the 9" attic blanket within the 14" TJ
    trussels. After closing up the garage ceiling, I've had NO heat
    problems..(room is 24'X26')..I did take down 3 4X8 sheets of FB this 
    past weekend to get at whirlpool tub wiring...But other than that...
    
    
    							john

>    The room I added over my garage sounds about the same size....I added 
>    baseboards to the exterior walls...I had to take down the fireboard in
>    the garage but luckily it hadn't been taped/seamed/sealed. We really
>    didn't "lose" any of the wall space..I wrapped the pipes in rubber
>    "sleeves" and also used the 9" attic blanket within the 14" TJ
>    trussels. After closing up the garage ceiling, I've had NO heat
>    problems..(room is 24'X26')..I did take down 3 4X8 sheets of FB this 
>    past weekend to get at whirlpool tub wiring...But other than that...
     
>                                                           john


    We can either remove the garage ceiling or wrap the pipes. Our joists run 
perpindicular to the way we need to run the pipes so each one will have to be 
drilled. Given this I feel we are better off to wrap the pipes or box them in 
later. As far as wall space goes I think we'll have to live with either 
baseboard all around or having two large blower units that are most likely
going to be noisy. 
 
   
>     I've been growing plants right on top of my cast iron hot water 
>   radiators for years.  Some are in a pebble tray which sometimes has water 
>   in it, and some are directly on the radiator cover.  They must get hot, 
>   but they don't seem to mind!  If plants can stand that, they can surely 
>   stand to be in front of a baseboard.
>                                                Kevin

    With the feedback I've received I think the plants will survive being
placed in front of the baseboard radiation. They will just need watering more 
often. They survived when I've cranked the stove to unbearable temperatures
so a little extra heat from a baseboard shouldn't kill them (I HOPE).
   
    I haven't received any feedback on the Myson convection blowers or the
coil radiation in the floor so I take it nobody has dared to try either.
I will most likely stick with the baseboard unless I can find someone to
convince me that the blowers are not noisy and the coil radiation will
supply "on demand" heat. The baseboard is the least expensive and most practical
from what I've seen and heard. Still a long way to heating season so I'm still
open for suggestions though.

Thanks for the responses so far,

Mick

                                              

    We're in the process of scoping out the replacement of our existing 
    electric heat with oil fired FHW.  This conference has been a great help
    in understanding the process, but I have a nitsy question I have not seen
    addressed anywhere else:  What are the tradeoffs between separate
    circulating pumps (for each zone) vs just zone valves?  One contractor
    is trying to sell us the separate pumps (he's by far the highest quote)
    claiming that they'll be less trouble down the road.
    
    Thanks.
    
    /john

    I have heard that zone values are a pain in the ass.  When my father
    and I replace his steam heat with FHW we went the zone value route. 
    Four zones, one pump.  The only trouble we have had in over 10 years is
    that 3 values have gone bad.  Not the acutal mechnical part, the valve
    head which is easy to replace and very inexpensive.  One of the factors 
    was that we did not have the space to put in 4 seperate pumps, 
    there is alot more plumming/electrical involved with the seperate
    pumps.
    
    The problem would be if the one pump went, no heat in the entire house
    until fixed.  As for "trouble down the road", my father's house has
    been very trouble free with the zone valves.  I would think that if all
    the zone pumps were going at once you would be using a good deal more
    electrical power.
    
    bjm

    We've had the single pump replaced twice in the four years we've had the
    system and it wasn't cheap.  I wouldn't want four of the little
    suckers.  Maybe they wouldn't go south as often if we had four of them,
    but I have my doubts.  None of the zone valves have had any problem.
    					- Vick

    I have had two zone valves for 10 years, and one for 3 years (added for
    new addition). Had a problem with the Honeywell controls, never with
    the Taco zone valves. My circulator is also a Taco, no problem with
    that either. I had to replace the Burnham America boiler under
    warranty. (detailed somewhere in this note file)
    
    My zone valves have been trouble free. 

    I've got 3 circulating pumps, on a boiler installed around 1968.
    I've lived in the house 8 years.  The motors looked "old" when I 
    moved in.  This year I had to replace one of the pump motors, a 
    B&G (Bell & Gossett?).  The other motors (Taco) are doing fine.
    I don't think longevity of the pumps and motors is a problem if
    you do the yearly oiling business.

    I have 2 Taco zone valves running off of a single Taco circulator
    pump. The system is 15 years old and I have never had a pump failure.
    However, the zone valves continue to be a problem. Seems like I
    get a bad one about every 2 years. Only one has smoked on me, but
    I continually have a problem with the contacts chattering causing
    the circulator pump to rapidly turn on and off. This sure isn't
    good for the pump, but so far it has survived. I have cleaned the
    contacts in the zone valve with contact cleaner. That seems to help
    for a while and then the problem reappears. I have also replaced
    the Honeywell relay box and that didn't help either.
    
    Does any one know if there are any adjustments anywhere that could
    make the zone valves less sensitive to  chattering? Any other
    suggestions?
    
    Ray

    Ray, I had the same problem a while back, 1988. See note 2243 for 
    a discussion.
    
    Steve

    Thanks Steve, I will try suggestions there. Any further discussion
    will be in note 2243 which is more approproiate.
    
    Ray

     Here's another building code question about running FHW pipes in 
living spaces:

     This is in an older house converted into a college dormitory.  Is it
possible that a building code might permit FHW pipes to be run across the
floor of a living space?

	+-----------------------+
	|			|
	|			|	==== is FHW pipe
	|			|	B is baseboard radiator
	|			|
	|			|
	|*======================|
	|B			|
	|B			|
	|B			+---------------+
	|B					|
	|B					|
	|B					|
			...

It turns out that somebody (must have been one of the gas company guys)
swapped two wires connected to a zone valve.  This burnt out two zone valves
and one thermostat.  While discovering this, the electrician managed to
fry the other thermostat.  The electrician's bill was $250.  It would
have been more if his supplier had a replacement setback thermostat in
stock, but since he didn't, the electrician installed a standard thermostat.

I'm going to write a very angry letter to the gas company, but I don't
expect satisfaction.

BTW, I called Honeywell's 800 number to see if I could get a replacement
anticipator for the one that was burnt out in the setback thermostat.
The technician happened to have an old thermostat right there, so he
removed the anticipator and put it in the mail to me at no charge!

    Just think what those gas company guys could do if they weren't such
    highly-trained professionals!
    
    

    I've been looking at a house which the bank took over from the builder.
    I'd say it's about 80-90 percent complete. One thing that strikes
    me as odd it that the walls are up and finished, trim and all, but
    the not all the plumbing stubs are in for the registers.
    Why would anyone do this? Would it be logical to assume that they
    didn't back themselves in a corner, requiring ripping sheetrock
    out to finish the rough plumbing? (holes are drilled, etc)
    The bank did an appraisal to complete the job, and that should tell
    me more. If it looks promising, I'll get my own down before as well.
    I'm just curious why they did this.
    
    John

    I'm not sure I understand.  If this is the 1st floor, the plumbing for
    FHW registers doesn't come out of the wall, it comes up thru the floor.
    Now, if your talking about a 2nd floor, I don't know.
    
    Chris D.

>    I'm not sure I understand.  If this is the 1st floor, the plumbing for
>    FHW registers doesn't come out of the wall, it comes up thru the floor.
    Let me give more detail. Yes, some rooms have stubs up coming thru the
    floor at either end of a wall, some room have just one stub, some have
    none. The same thing appears on the second. In the cellar, there are
    lengths of pipe stored - assuming to complete the job.
    The bank had a contractor submit a bid to complete the whole house,
    and I have a call into him. I'll bring this up for sure.
    
    John

It is possible that all the work is done behind the walls.  As for the pipe in
the basement, there is a need for extra pipe in forced hot water systems when
dummy baseboard is needed (just pipe, no fins) and this seems to be the case
when you have just one stub in one room.  What is done in alot of cases it that
the supply is brought to one room and then the baseboard is put all the way
around the room, through the wall, into the next room and so on until the
return is reached.

Brian

    I need some help "diagnosing" a possible problem with our Aquastat
    control.  
    
    It is a model L8148B Aquastat controlling a gas fired Utica forced
    hot water heating system. The tank type gas hot water heater is 
    a seperate stand alone system.
    
    The problem is that the temp gague on the boiler reads:
     190 as an oberved "hi" when a zone circulator calls for heat
     130 as an observed "lo" "  "   "        "      "     "   "
      90 when all zone thermostats set to zero and circulators off
    
    This model Aquastat has only one adjustment setting.....for upper limit
    and this is set to 210 presently.
    
    When the plumber recently installed a new circulator he commented that 
    the pipes certainly didn't feel like 190 degrees and thought the
    controller was not functioning properly.  He suggested having an
    electrician come-out to trouble shoot it. However, with labor costs
    what they are.....a new Aquastat at Somerville is $65. 
    
    Does this sound like a contoller problem and can they be repaired
    by a knowledgable "heating" electrician or should I simply gamble on
    a replacement (electronic controls are NOT returnable per store
    policy).
    
    Thanks for the help,
    
    Jonathan

    
    I just purchased a heat/ac electronic set-back therm. this summer
    for a gas FHA system. The new and old are both Honeywell.
    The one thing that baffled me is no anticipator to adjust...makes me
    wonder! Is there a cycle timer internal to the electronics?
    I do notice the room temp. will sometimes exceed thermostat setting.
    
    Also on long burner cycles, the thermostat display goes blank.
    It was pointed out in the installation instruction that some
    heating systems will cycle power off to the thermostat and that a 24v
    isolation transformer is required. If I just let things go as they are,
    will any damage accure? 
    I can provide the model number if needed.
    
    Thanx, Dave'
    

I suggest you call Honeywell's 800 number.  It's listed in note 23.3.

    re .-1
    I just spoke with the contractor who wants to finish the work. He said
    the same thing. I feel better now. Now only if the bank would work
    today like the rest of us, I'd find out if this thing is gonna fly...
    
    John

  You're suggesting the old, "throw money at the problem" technique for 
problem solving.  My experience says you'll have about a 50/50 chance of
fixing the problem.

  Do you have a real problem to fix, (like no heat, long time to heat up, etc)
or are you simply bothered by the plumber's comment?

   Steve

    
    
    
    
    RE: .6
    
    The heat takes a while to come up from time of initial demand. We
    have regular (not set-back) thermostats since we don't have "regular"
    daily schedules.  
    
    When the plumber made mention of the pipes not being as hot as the
    gague indicated....I made the correlation to the long "heat-up" times.
    
    I'm tempted to try the "remove-replace" approach given that I'm not
    confident in finding an electrician who is familiar with trouble-
    shooting heating controls.......and they'll take the same "approach"
    but add a labor charge to it! 
    
    What I'd really like is some directions from a fellow noter on how this
    controller w/ just one upper limit adjustment is SUPPOSED to work
    relative to upper and lower limit differentials and how to troubleshoot 
    an Aquastat with a multitester (ohm meter). Maybe then I could improve on
    my 50-50 remove & replace "odds"
    
    Jonathan

    .16:
    
    Essentially, they run the baseboards in series, not in parallel?  I'd
    think that such a setup wouldn't work as well as running each room's
    baseboards in parallel.  (One might 'get away' with it on a small room
    (such as a bathroom) that's using a 4-foot baseboard, but...)
    
    Dick

    re .-1
    I'd think series would make more sense. There would only be one path for
    the hot water to go. In a parallel set up, the water would have to could
    have as many paths as there were rooms. Seems you'd have unequal pressure
    across rooms that way.
    
    John

"Series" is common and works fairly well.  I think it's more common than
"parallel", in fact.  Saves lots of plumbing.  I'm doing my own house in
parallel, however.  A valve for each room controls the flow, and therefore
the heat each room gets.

-Mike

re .20

some years back, my heating person put baseboard in my downstairs playroom and
bathroom.  he ran them in parallel.  each line, although on the same circulator,
was controllable by a valve in the pipe, so that the bathroom would not get too
hot.  I asked him why he did it that way.  he said "because it's the right way"
(man of few words).

Back in the present - He just roughed in some new baseboard for an addition in
my current house.  He did it before the walls have been done.  Before he put 
them in, he had me place sheetrock on the wall 7" up, so that the baseboard 
would be spaced properly.  

In my situation, he could have worked before or after the sheetrock, since he 
was able to come up through the floor in the basement.

    There should be a guage on the furnace which show temp and pressure.
    What does that read as far as temperature. If the temp looks right, you
    might be looking at some deposits in the pipe, which are acting as
    insulators when the pipe is touched (it also cuts down on water flow).
    This commonly occurs with hard water that is not treated (minewral de-
    posits). Check the guage and take it from there.
    
    Eric

    Some electronic  thermostats  "figure out" how much to anticipate.
    For the first few days they overshoot, but then they calculate how
    long it takes to heat the house and compensate automatically.

--David

    Nowadays the heating guys have a little calculator that they put the
    room dimensions into (and possibly it's position in a serial run) and
    it tells how many feet and inches of baseboard to use.  If the heat is
    uneven room to room, one adjusts the louvers on the baseboard to slow
    the air/heat transfer across the fins.  
    
    In high efficiency recondensing boilers it's important to have the
    correct temperature drop at the return end of a zone, the better boiler
    manufacturers send reps out to train the plumber/installer and inspect 
    the installation.  
    
    If your plumber is available at the right time, you can put the
    baseboards on after the sheetrock is hung, but before the skim coat is
    done.  Of course, you need to mask off the baseboards before the
    plasterers make their mess.
    
    Carl

    In series plumbing, it is possible to have such a large mis-match in
    heat between rooms that opening and closing the louvers won't fix it. 
    I had to remove the fins from about 8 feet of heater pipe in the spare
    bedroom so guests wouldn't roast.  It made a big difference.
    
    S

    ...looks like the plumber forgot his decoder ring that day...
    

    I have looked through all relevent notes and can't seem to find my
    answer. I am in the middle of a bathroom remodel and need to shorten
    the baseboard heat.  HOW DO I DO IT?  I have the ability to solder and
    do plumbing, but I have some questions I need answers to.
    
    How do I drain the zone?  Do I need to shut down the furnace (3 zones)?
    How about shortening the baseboard itself, its 3/4 is copper pipe with
    fins.  I only need to shorten it 3". I should say that the end I have
    to shorten is the feed end and I have to move the pipes coming up thru
    the floor.
    
    The system is a Weil McClean/Becket burner and is 3 zones.  I am in the
    middle of this and need to move the tub this weekend so I need some
    quick answers.
    
    thanks

If your system is plumbed well, there will be shutoff valves which allow
you to isolate any of the zones.  So you would isolate the affected zone,
drain the pipes, and do the work.  When done, you refill the pipes and
bleed the air (the last part is the trickiest.)

Actually shortening the baseboard is simple.  Use long-nosed pliers to
twist off enough of the fins, and then use a pipe cutter or hacksaw to
cut the pipe to the new length.

			Steve

I have been having trouble with my fhw/tankless furnace. The burner does
not always come on and the whole unit cools down.  When I press the reset
button it fires right up and will operate fine for the next month/week/day
(random time until the next failure).
The temperature controls on the aquastat are not accurate.  They must be set
at high of 170 in order for the burner to shutdown when the temp reaches 210
on the boiler.  The low is set at 150 with a diff of 10.  I suspect that
the Honeywell aquastat is faulty.  The problem seems to occur more frequently 
just after I adjust the controls.  Then it might go a couple of months without
acting up.  This is not only a nuisance but also a energy waste to reheat
the boiler from stone cold.  The circulators will run to try to heat the
house/hot water, so that part of the system is working correctly.
The whole system is three years old which is one reason I suspect electronic 
parts. It has acted up since it was new, but only 3 or 4 times a year.  
This past weekend it failed to fire three times.

Does anyone have any ideas?        


Thanks,
	Harold

Yeah, like .1 said.  I'd only add that you probably want to take a
second to look at the fin tube and shorten it from the end that's NOT
flared.  And use a pipe cutter, not a hacksaw.  Fin tube is very thin
wall and it's not worth taking the chance of bunging it up with a saw.   

			>>>==>PStJTT

        How about getting rid of the baseboard entirely and
    installing a kick space heater.  Best thing that ever
    happened to our down stairs bathroom/laundry.  That baseboard
    unit next to the toilet was impossible to keep looking
    decent.  Requires a monoflow tee.  Be sure to install it in
    the porper direction.  No inexpensive.  I think I paid $7-8
    for one.  The heater was about $100.00.  Not cheap, but a
    good investment in my estimation.


    Regards,
    Peter Duke

Kickspace heaters are indeed nice, but can't be used indiscriminately as
a substitution for baseboard.  In particular, you need a kickspace
(or toespace) under a cabinet in which to install them.  (There's also
a variant I've heard of which mounts in a wall).  I recently priced
these at Somerville at $129 and $169 for two different sizes.  I'm
putting one in my kitchen.

Baseboard works fine if you've got the space for it, and you don't have to
worry about electric hookup either.

Just be careful of those fins - they're sharp!

			Steve

    This summer I replaced my FHW radiators with FHW baseboards and went
    from 1 zone to 2; next summer, the upstairs radiators will go.
    
    I certainly agree that the fin tube is very thin wall; but at least for
    me, I could not effectively cut it with a pipe cutter.  If I used
    enough pressure so it would not move in a spiral, the fin tube would
    dent; less pressure, the cutter would spiral.  I sharpened the pipe
    cutter blade and tried again--same results.
    
    The hacksaw, followed by a file, worked fine.
    
    

I have a Burnham America unit the builder put in.  I am unimpressed with it.  I
pay $99 a year for a service plan.  Since I have it cleaned once a year and 
serviced at least once a year, I figure the worst I do is break even.  I just
call the service man.

Since the thing always breaks down at night :-( I am not doing anything anyway
so I watch the guy and ask questions.  Whenever I have had symptoms like those 
you describe, it has been something in the motor that injects the oil into the
furnace.  Once it was a fiber tube that connects two shafts together (motor and
pump?) that was worn and sometimes slipped causing the unit to shutdown since no
oil was available to ignite.  Another time it was something else (dirty jet?).  
Therefore, I wouldn't rule out a mechanical problem if I were you.

Stan

    Well the radiant heating in the slab of my 30 year old has gone.  I am
    in the process of replacing the heating system, and I'm obtaining bids
    from a number of contractors.  Each contractor seems to have a
    different idea on how to replace it and with what type of system to put
    in.  Any help in sorting this stuff out would be appreciated.
    
    IDEA #1:
    
    Install a forced hot water baseboard system with three zones.  The
    plumbing would be run in the slab (after digging a trench in the slab)
    until it reaches the zone, at which point it would all be run along the
    walls.
    
    
    IDEA #2:
    
    Install a forced hot water baseboard system with three zones.  The
    plumbing would all run in the attic.
    
    
    IDEA #3:
    
    Install a forced hot air system with the ducts running in the attic.
    
    
    I have concerns about each of these.  Possibility of pipes feezing if
    run through the attic.  Possibility of pipes leaking after they have
    been cemented into the slab.  The forced hot air ducts would be high on
    the walls, and might not heat properly.
    
    After reading all relevant notes in this file, I have deciaded on a
    Weil-Mclain boiler with Beckett Burner.  I have not yet made up my mind
    on whether to go with the slant-fin 30 or slant-fin 60 radiators.  Any
    advice?
    
    Thanks
    
    David
    

    .last
    >Well the radiant heating in the slab of my 30 year old has gone.
    
    What about the system is "gone"?  Has the heating plant worn out?  The
    pipes in the slab leak?  You don't like the way it heats your house?  
    
    Sometimes putting in a completely new system like you are proposing is
    a tad more expensive than repairs but in theory would free you from
    repairs for a while.  I was just thinking that repairing or upgrading
    the "gone" system might be more cost effective.
    
    Cutting new trenchs in the slab to put in plumbing seems like a *very*
    invasive manner to install heating in your home.  All flooring would
    have to be removed and reinstalled, not to mention the dust that would
    be generated by the concrete saw.  If the pipes every leak, then
    repairs are made more difficult by having to rip up all the flooring
    again.
    

    There are 3 weights of copper tubing: K, L, and M.  
    Concrete and copper don't get along very well, I've heard.  If you
    go the buried-pipe route, I'd use type K copper tubing (that's the
    heavy-wall variety...unless I've gotten it backwards and it's M).

re: .9
    
>    What about the system is "gone"?  Has the heating plant worn out?  The
>    pipes in the slab leak?  You don't like the way it heats your house?  
    
    
    We have started to have leaks in the copper tubing currently under/in
    the slab.  We have turned off water flow to those rooms....needless to
    say that those rooms are very cold (we are using space heaters for
    now).  In fact, only about half the house gets heated now. The furnace is 
    VERY inefficient, and the oil & electric bills are bringing us to our 
    knees.  The 2.5 gallon per minute tankless water on the furnace also is 
    not enough for our needs.
    
    Presently, the furnace is in the kitchen. We will be remodelling the
    kitchen over the next couple of years, so moving the furnace is another
    thing that is driving us to look at the whole job.
    
    Current quotes are about $8500!!
    
    Thanks 

I used to have a slab ranch in Worcester with slab FHW heat and an ancient
furnace.  I lived with it and moved after two years.  However, my home
inspector told me the following:

A large number of slab heat ranches were built in the late 40's through the
50's.  They later found out that the lime in the concrete attacks the copper,
eventually corroding clear through.  Later houses used a slightly different
concrete mix, but slab heat had a bad reputation by then and they stopped
installing it.

I was told to expect the pipes to last 30 years (mine were already 40 years
old).  Possible options to a leaky pipe:

1) Cut through the concrete at the leak (there are devices to find the
   location) and repair the leaky pipe.  This is the cheapest solution, but
   also the shortest-lived due to the fact that the rest of your pipe is
   still corroding.

2) Run FHW pipes through the attic, and install baseboard radiators.  DIY
   the plumbing and you can save big bucks on the job.  If you have frame
   walls and no fire breaks and a tall attic, it's a straightforward (but
   lengthy) job (my house had some concrete block interior walls, complicating
   things).  The pipes have to be insulated in the attic, but remember that
   the system runs when the weather is cold, so the freezing danger is reduced.

$8500 sounds about right.  I was quoted $3500 - $4000 for a new furnace
alone.  The labor to get the pipes through the attic and down the walls is
not trivial, and that's a lot of copper to buy.

What I had planned to do (if faced with this eventuality) was:

1) Wait until summer.  I had a coal stove to supplement the heating.
2) Install the copper and baseboard radiators myself (is that legal in Mass?).
3) Pay to have a new furnace installed.

I still expected this project to run $5K.  Fortunatly for me, the system
held out past when I relocated to Colorado.

    What if you put baseboard heat fascia on all the outside walls, and ran
    plain tubing ( along with the fin tubing) for the various zones?  All
    your plumbing would be hidden, but inside a heated space.  
    
    Carl

    Is forced hot air a feasible alternative?  Withe three zones, would it
    heat the house properly?
    
    As for radiators, is there a need to go with the slant fin 60 (750
    btu/ft)?  All of the contractors recommend the slant fin 30.

    My diaphragm expansion tank is leaking too, at the plastic "valve
    cover"? thingie indicated by the 0 in my sketch.

                _0_
                | |
                |_|
           ------|---------> baseboards
          |    ------
          |   | exp. |
          |   | tank |
          |   |      |
          |    ------
          ^
        boiler

    Water is leaking out of there, dribbling down over the expansion tank,
    collecting around its "rim" thing 1/2 way down, and on to the floor.

    This is a "tank-less" system, i.e. the boiler heats our domestic hot
    water.  And our primary heat is wood, so it's not ON all that much. 
    It's also only two years old.  For what it's worth it's a Vent-Rite
    VR30F made by Flexron.

    Reply .1 mentioned an air valve I can hitch up to a bicycle pump.  I
    assume that's what my "0" thing is.  It was not real tight when I first
    noticed the leak.  I tightened it by hand and reduced the drip a bit
    but not completely.  I get the impression I could stop it outright by
    taking a wrench to it, but I'd guess that if I need to do that to stop
    a drip, something worse it wrong.

    If I need to play with that, do I turn off the boiler?  Get all hot
    water out of it?  Call a plumber?

    Jon

    RE: .-1
    
    Please don't stop the flow.  That item is the release valve for the
    water system.  If you are getting leakage there, the pressure within
    the heating system is too high.  Have a plumber check to see if the
    diaphragm is broken within the expansion tank.  I have seen cases where
    the diaphragm has broken and the automatic "air remover" has filled the
    system with water.  This leaves no expansion space... therefore when
    the water heats up you get leakage.  
    
    There should be a valve that allows the tank to be emptied.  You might
    try to empty it first.
    
    Dan

    Second .-1 on the broken diaphragm; we had at least 2 replacement
    expansion tanks installed on our hot-water heating system over the
    5 years we lived in the house.  Symptoms were as you described;
    water bubbling out the release valve.
    
    Not sure if we were an exception or if the tanks have a limited
    life (or if the fuel oil dealer was buying the cheapest tanks he
    could get to ensure future replacement).

                   
    I just had a similar case.  The vent for the air Scoop was leaking.  It
    seems it was stuck in the open position so it was allowing water as well
    as air to escape.  I got a new vent at Spags for $5.00.  They just screw 
    into the top of the air scoop.  Make sure to drop the pressure in the 
    system.  Turn off the water feeding the system and open the pressure 
    relief valve and drop the pressure to zero.  The vent only allows air 
    to escape now.
    

    re: .-2
    
    The quality of the water in your area may be affecting the life of the
    diaphragms.  Perhaps a filter on the intake pipe will lengthen the life
    of the diaphragms.  High mineral content is a good indicator of
    potential problems.
    
    Dan

    is there a "formula" for computing the linear feet of baseboard heaters
    required to adequately heat a home in the mass. area?
    
    Someone said you could calculate how much baseboard was required by
    taking the square footage of the room being heated, and then
    manipulating that figure somehow.
    
    tony
    (who needs to install baseboard units in an addition)
    
    

    by the way, the baseboard heaters are hot water, the rooms are
    insulated R11 walls, R38 ceiling, and R19 floors.
    
    tony

    When I changed from gravity-fed, HW radiators to FHW Baseboard, I took
    the house floorplan to Sommerville Lumber.  They entered room sizes and
    layout (e.g. areas near exterior doors received more baseboard) into
    some program which printed out recommended baseboard/room.  
    
    There was no charge for this; their recommendations worked out well.

re: -1  

	I'm sure it did.  They use the B52 approach to "get it right the first
time".  You can move that house to Alaska and it'll be warm enough.  I got
an engineer to do my house and he computed 94k BTU/hr.  A local plumbing supply
punched the numbers into their PC and got 140kBTU, and Sommerville said 200k
should do it.  It all depends on whether you want to spend the money on the
engineering or the baseboard and furnace capacity.  Turns out you can either 
pay for the engineer, or you can accomplish the same effect by just oversizing
the boiler and running baseboard around the entire perimeter which is
essentially S'lumber's approach. 

	There were lots of books in the Nashua, NH public library on how to
calculate heat loss yourself.  Its a very insightful exercise and if you do
it on a spreadsheet you can tell in a hurry whether you should be spending
money on attic insulation, or better windows, and what you're liable to get as
a return on caulking and sealing cracks.

	-Bob

> calculate heat loss yourself.  Its a very insightful exercise and if you do
> it on a spreadsheet you can tell in a hurry whether you should be spending
> money on attic insulation, or better windows, and what you're liable to 
> get as a return on caulking and sealing cracks.

Boy, I wish I lived in a house that needed a spreadsheet to make those 
decisions....

;-)

>>>=>PStJTT

    No room has baseboard around the perimeter; in fact no room has
    baseboard running more than the length of one wall.
    
    If you are trying to get advice from places like Somerville lumber, it
    is important to qualify who you are talking to.  Some of the people
    there are totally useless, others have worked in the trades for 20
    years and are quite knowledgable.
    
    

    It's not unusual to have baseboard on more than one wall - especially
    if more than one wall faces the outdoors, and/or has a lot of glass,
    and/or the room has 20 foot ceilings for example.
    I don't know if you need to go the engineer route, but a decent
    heating contractor should be able to size something like this up.
    
    John

    Most of the calculations are from tables,and experience.  Spreadsheet
    programs,to be useful,need extensive information on site wind
    speed/month,average temp.,sunlight,trees,etc.
    
    The best/easiest method in New England is to put baseboard radiators
    along ALL outside walls,where pratical. Next,run your water temp. at
    180 degrees F. Use your thermosats anticipator and small changes to
    the hot waters temp. to "fine tune" your house.
    
    Around New England,the old rule was: Use enough radiation to keep the
    house at 72 F when the outside temp is 0F.
    
    Marc H.