Conference 7.286::home_work

My husband and I bought an older home (70-75 yrs.) about 6 months ago.  
We've done over the kitchen (new walls, cabinets, counters, sink, stove)
and are in the process of trying to seal the house, especially with this
cold weather we've had lately.  We insulated the sills and weatherstripped
the doors.  (The windows were replaced before we bought the house.) 
So far it's not too bad.  We still need to insulate the attic, though.

Today we have a new problem:  we have a gas-fired burner which doesn't seem
to be working efficiently.  It is 2-zone with 2 circulators and
2 thermostats, one for each floor.  We usually keep the upstairs thermostat
off, and there usually is enough heat to keep the bedrooms about 68 degrees.
This morning, we found the whole house to be 60 degrees or less, even though
the first floor thermostat was set for 70 degrees.  

As far as we know, the burner was installed within the last 5 years.  
We try to keep it clean of dust and cobwebs and such so that it isn't 
blocked by dirt.  

Any ideas as to why the burner wasn't kicking on with the room
temperature below the one set on the thermostat?

Thanks!   <<Linda                                                     

The same thing has happened to me on occasion....I have a similar setup...oil
burner...two zone...two thermostats...go into the cellar near the boiler and
see if you can smell something that smells like an electrical fire...if so,
its probably the teco valve (assuming you have them)  They are these cone
shaped things on the pipes leading away from the boiler...they should be
easy to spot...what these do is automatically open a valve (its tied in
somehow into the thermostat) which lets the heat flow thru the pipe into
the room.  When they burn out they have a distinctive stink and of course,
you dont get any heat.  If you cant tell by the smell, there is another way
you can tell if the teco valve is gone.  Right on the back part of the valve
is a "lever" which looks like the letter L pointing down.  I cant remember
which is the on/off but wherever it is now, move it in the other direction.
What this is is manually override the valve.  If you do this, then effectively
what youre doing is turning a two zone into one zone.  Put up the thermostat
that works, wait a few minutes, then see if you are getting heat from both
zones.  If you are, then it is definitely the valve.

If you can buy the valve it will cost about $25 or so and is relatively easy
to install.  It will cost you about $60 to have it done.

If its not the valve, your pipes could be frozen, and Ive also had that problem,
or one of the kids(?) maybe played with the setting on the thermostat and
messed it up.  

I assume you are getting heat from the other thermostat...if so,  I would put
money that its a bad teco valve.

good luck

Rick
exit

The TECO valves (not to be confused with the editor) are available in Spag's
in the plumbing dept.  You have to ask for them.  The head is available 
separately, but it is a good idea to buy the whole thing (about $40).  I've
had a valve itself go bad.  

The reason that the circ. pump doesn't run when the electrical part of the
valve burns out is because there are contacts in the head which turn on the
circ. pump motor.  When the part doesn't work (and sometimes there is conti-
nuity in the coil) it is because the packing around the coil gives way and
will no longer move enough to move the valve and close the contacts.

Peter

If the problem is frozen heating pipes, there is a product called Winter
Gard (available in Spag's) which is a non toxic anti-freeze designed for
heating systems.  The product is made by Sudbury Labs (in Natick, I think)
and they sold it (I bought the stuff a couple of years ago) for about $6/gal.
Spag's was selling it at the time for about $3.50/gal.  DON'T use automobile
antifreeze.  It is toxic and can damage the circ. pump.  If you have a tankless
hot water heater coil in your boiler and it develops a leak, it could transfer
antifreeze to the domestic hot water system.

Your first problem would be to defrost the heating system and then put in
this stuff.  If the problem is severe enough, get a welding machine and use
that to defrost the pipes.  Be careful...with enough current you can desolder
the copper sweated pipes, if that's what you have.

Peter

An update on what happened:

As it turns out, there is not a teco valve on our system, so that wasn't the
problem.  The pipes were not frozen, either, as they were too hot to touch.
And since we don't have kids, no one played with the thermostat.  So what
was it?

Well, there was a valve with a lever on it that looked like an "L", so I
flipped it over to the other side.  (At the time I didn't really know what
a teco valve looked like, but I do now!)  I heard lots of water flowing through
the pipes, and everything seemed to be working OK.  The valve is the 
automatic water feeder valve, and apparently, the system had gotten low on 
water and this valve was stuck.  When I flipped it, the valve was freed and 
did its job by adding more water to the system.  

We did have someone knowledgeable about heaters come over to look at it,
and this is the explanation he gave us.  So, everything seems OK now and
I've learned a bit more about heaters.  Thanks!

<<Linda

If you have a pressure gage on the boiler make sure that there isn't too
much feedwater pressure.  That can damage components in the system.  The
feedwater valve should be replaced at some time or monitor the pressure so
that you don't get too much.  I have a feedwater pressure valve that is not
working correctly, so I've shut off the feed to that.  Since the system is
a closed system, I never have had to add water to it.  The pressure stays
around 18 pounds when the system is on (I shut down during the night in the
summer to save fuel).

Peter

     ... DON'T use automobile antifreeze.  It is toxic and can damage
the circ. pump.  If you have a tankless hot water heater coil in your
boiler and it develops a leak, it could transfer antifreeze to the
domestic hot water system. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     How can a leak in the tankless unit transfer the boiler contents
to the hot water?  The pressure in the boiler is never more than 30psi
(a relief valve sees to that), while the pressure in the tankless is
street pressure.  I had a pinhole leak in a tankless hot water unit,
and believe me, the water flows into the boiler and out the relief
valve (onto the basement floor!). 

    I think that it's for the same reason that you want to have an air
    gap between any source of water and any vessel that you fill.  If
    the vessel has, for example, insect spray in it and you are filling
    it with a hose, then it is recommended not to put the hose into
    the container.  The reasoning is that should you lose pressure from
    the source it is possible for the hose to act as a siphon and draw
    the fluid from the container into the water source.  I think that
    the Reader's Digest yellow book talks about this in the plumbing
    section.

       Our furnace is about 70 years old. It was coal at one time,
      converted to oil, and finally converted to gas. It's one of 
      those bulky things like the gas company advertises and recomends
      you get rid of. The poor old thing runs fine, but every time 
      it kicks in ,it heats up ~ 40 gallons of water. So anyhow.....
      I decided to look into one of those Bryant furnaces the Gas Co.
      sells. I'm heating a 6 room cape, and the total cost of the 
      furnace is ~ $2,000.00.... 1,2**.** materials, 600.00 labor etc.
      If anyone has gone through this and knows of a better route
      to take, let me know. I don't know wheather to call a private
      company for an estimate or buy one outright and hire a plumber
      to install it or what? We're on a budget and the damn bill just
      went up to $130.00 a month for 11 months! The house is'nt that
      big, and the attic & outside walls are all insulated. That old
      boiler has to be suck'in up all the gas... no?
    
        Thanks in advance for any assistance..../BB
    
      P.S. does anyone know of a place that sells the wire needed to
           hold insulation up in floor joists? I'd have to aquire loads
           of coat hangers to make up for the wire!
      

    Get some estimates from plumbing and heating contractors.  The labor
    might be about the same as the gas company but the boiler will probably
    be much less.
    
    Also, visit some plumbing supply stores.  Get an idea of what brand
    of boiler you might like.  There's quite a variety.  Ask for brochures
    and look at the specs.  Then ask the dealer or salesperson for a
    recommendation for a contractor.  That's how I did it 3 years ago
    and I was very pleased with everything.  

    for the wire why not use bailing wire? it is very cheap and quite
    strong. The only drawback is it has a tendency to rust.
    

    I found the wires for the insulation at Grossman's
    

    The millivolt thermostat also is the source to activate the gas
    valve in the old system. The new one can be powered off the 24VAC
    transformer. The three set-back thermostats can be powered off the
    same transformer, but if you can, use a 4 wire system. The two wire
    system depends on the battery to power the clock when the furnace is
    on while the four wire always power the clock whether the furnace is
    on or not. You might consider replacing the old gas valve as a new
    one is more reliable. Chances are, two seperate transformer to run
    each furnace separately will be your best hedge against one of the
    furnace failing.
    
    /cal hoe 

Thanks for the quick reply.

We like the existing millivolt gas valve, especially the fact that it works 
even when we lose power.  When you say, "You might consider replacing the
old gas valve as a new one is more reliable", I assume you mean replacing 
it with a 24V valve.  Since doing so would lose us the heat-with-no-power 
feature, I don't think we will.

There are no batteries whatsoever in any of the setback thermostats.  Does 
that fact modify any of your comments?

New question:  if I have a separate 24V transformer to run the clocks, does 
it have to be on the same emergency/service shutoff switches with the rest 
of the heating equipment?  Does anybody know whether code or good practice 
requires this?  I like the idea of the clocks continuing to run during 
servicing - maybe that consideration alone makes the separate transformer 
worthwhile.

        I'm sending this one note both to the REAL_ESTATE and the HOME_WORK
    Notes files - one for return-on-investment advice, one for technical
    advice.  Any responses will be appreciated.
        We own and live in a three-family house.  We plan on selling
    it in the near future.  We have one oil furnace with three zones and
    it heats the house well.  The problem is with the hot water which is
    heated by the furnace.  I don't know the right terms, but water for
    baths and washing dishes is heated by the furnace directly - there
    is no hot water tank.  The hot water produced by this setup is woefully
    inadequate - you can't take a shower and wash dishes at the same time.
    Imagine three apartments on this system!
        One choice is to buy a new furnace - $2000 or so?  The other is to say:
    to the tenants, it's the best we can do; to a potential buyer, nothing.
        So, my questions are:

        1.  I've heard that upgrading a furnace is a poor return-on-investment
    idea.  Every house needs a furnace and the buyer just assumes that the one
    there is adequate.  So x thousand dollars for a lousy furnace can be
    subtracted from the asking price; the same price for a brand new furnace
    will never be added to the asking price.  Any comments?
        2.  Will even a brand new furnace-heated hot water system be enough
    for three apartments?  Oh yes, there's room for a potential fourth unit.
    Should we consider going the conventional hot water tank route or a
    tankless add-on?  (One thing about a tankless add-on that I've thought
    about is that the demand will still be on the furnace unit first, forcing
    the furnace to fire up to heat the water ... (groan) even in the summer!)

    	Do you have gas available for a gas hot water heater?  Do you have 
    the circuits to support an electric hot water heater?  Your present
    system does not provide enough hot water, but provides enough
    heat in the winter.  Putting in a new furnace to supply you with
    enough hot water does not sound like a cost effective idea.
    	I would concentrate on your problem, HOT WATER.  Have you checked
    the heater coil for the hot water?  It might need cleaning or
    replacement.   My folks solved a similar problem by adding a holding
    tank, a giant Thermos bottle, to hold enough hot water for peak
    demands.  If after fixing the coil you still don't have enough hot
    water, feed your present hot water line into an 80 gal hot water
    heater for a 'boost' before distributing the water to the units.
                                                       
    					=Ralph=

I had the same problem in my house. I have FHW by oil, one
zone. The suggestion of checking the tankless coil is a good
one, but the tankless coil on my furnace (30 years old) is
held in by a 6 inch or so pipe plug (aquastat, it says on
it) and I felt that although I could remove it, something
might get broken. My solution was to increase the heat
transfer to the tankless coil by having the circulator pump
run constantly during the peak demand hours (the burner
still cycles on and off normally). I put in valves to shut
off the heating zones, and added a short piece of pipe and
valve directly from the heating hot water exit back to the
inlet of the circulator pump. The internal circulation in
the furnace helps enormously, I can run hot water out of
every faucet and the shower at once if I want to. 


Here is a diagram of what I did:

                              valve
    |----------------------T--X---------> to baseboards
    |                      |    
    |heating               | 
    |water out             |  
\\\\\\\\\                  X valve
furnace \                  |
\\\\\\\\\                  |
    |                      |
    O circulator pump      |
    |                      |
    |----------------------T--------< return from baseboards
       heating water return


Good Luck,
George Dvorak   BARNUM::DVORAK    297-5386

    Might try an inexpensive, 40 gal electric hotwater tank in series
    with the lines feed ing your hot water taps. The theory is that
    the tank will hold the preheated hot water and uses electricity
    to keep the water hot. Problem with the tankless hot water supply
    is that the units costs $500 or more.
    
    /cal  

    	We had the same type problem with the house we "just" bought
    in Worc. Not enough hot watre out of the furnace to shower even.
    So to be sure we never had that problem again we put in an 83 gal
    electric xot water tank as a stand alone unit. The plumber suggested
    hooking it up in series with the furnace but I couldn't reconcile
    in my mind the fact that the furnace would run in the summer so
    we didn't do it that way. Now plenty of nice hot water all day with
    an off peak meter. We had to upgrade the entrance but the inspector
    suggested that be done for our safety anyway. A 60 amp entrance
    with 26 fuses in five boxes. A real mess.

I am considering buying a new Gas Furnace (FHW). My  old one is an 
Olympia. It's 20 years old  and I am the  original owner.  Something 
needs fixing every year for the past 5 or 6 years. I am probably not 
getting (it's) maximum efficiency - whatever minimum amount that is 
to begin with.

I've started my search by calling the Gas Co. to see what they had to
offer. They sell WEIL McLEAN and BURNUM (sp?) and arrange for installation 
through them. Supposedly, they pass on the exact installation charge.

They said they could not vent these high efficiency furnaces through an
outside chimney (like mine) because of condensation build up in the 
chimney. This creates some malfunctioning in the operation. They would
have to vent through the sill. They also replace the zone valves with
pumps. I have 3 zones.  They would give me a free estimate for the furnace,
installation and removal of the old furnace. 

After explaining to him what my layout looks like, I asked him to give 
me a guesstimate on the high side. He guessed $2,500 

I am not planning on staying in this house any longer then 3 more years.
I would like to reap some of the pay back, the enjoyment of an efficient 
furnace, and to use the new furnace as a selling feature.  However, if
things change (and everything is subject to change) and I don't move,
I would like a reliable, quality furnace that isn't going to give me any 
trouble for at least 10 years.

Some questions:

1. Does anyone know the reputation of WEIL McLEAN and the BURNUM?

2. What other brand names should I be looking at?

3. Where else would I look to buy a quality furnace for the best price?

4. Any ideas on installation costs and installers?

5. What method is used to determine your minimum and maximum BTU requirements. 
   There are 5 of us. Mucho showers/laundry (I have a stand alone 40 gal.water 
   heater). There is 15" of insulation in the roof, 4" in both the first and
   second floors. However, I think the walls are 2 1/2" foil covered. Storm
   windows and doors through out.

6. Any ideas on ball park estimates for the whole job.

Thanks,
Bob

    I just bought a Heil gas FHA furnace.  As far as other brands to
    look at, I als0 looked at a Magic Chef.  Gas furnaces seem pretty
    simple and while talking to people I really couldn't find significant 
    differences betwen the different brands.  A high efficiency furnace
    will cost you about twice as much as a traditional furnace.  The
    payback period would be so long that I couldn't justify the cost.
    Heil had a burner that has an electronic pilot.  This burner was less 
    than $100 dollars more than the traditional burner with a gas pilot
    and the efficiency was a lot better (64.9% for the traditional one,
    79.5% for the electric pilot and 92.8% for the hi efficiency).  This
    is the one I bought.
    When I bought the furnace I made sure that the furnace could be fitted 
    with air conditioning.  Whether a furnace can take ac or not depends
    on the tons of air it can push.  Since cold air is heavier than hot
    the blower has to be more powerfull.  I don't expect to ever air 
    condition the house but I figure for the extra $15 or $20 it will be a 
    good selling point when i try and sell the house.
    As far as installation cost - I don't know.  I do know that it is
    alot more than I want to pay so I plan to do the installation myself.
     The gas and electric is allready installed from the current furnace
    so it shouldn't be too difficult.  I will have to replace the plenum
    and put in a different size reducer to match the ducts but that
    shouldn't be that difficult either.
    
    Speaking of ducts, usually they are sized to the capacity of the current
    furnace.  If you decide to increase or decrease you may have to
    change the size of some of the ductwork.  If the furnace capacity
    is increased and the ductwork is too small the heating will become
    more noisy from a larger amount of air being pushed through too
    small ducts.  You can also put some strain on your blower.  If you
    decrease in size I imagine heating won't be as efficient since the
    furnace will be trying to move more air than it's capable of.  I
    bought my furnace at Total Air in Nashua, NH.  They were friendly
    and very helpful about spending time with me and explaining what
    i wanted and maybe didn't want.  I originally planned on increasing
    the size of my furnace since I wanted to add te cellar area to the
    heated areas but they showed me that the size i had could handle
    it with no problem.  This saved me a lot of work and money since
    I would of had to change some of the ducts.  They used the total
    sq. area of the rooms to be heated to figure out what size furnace
    i needed.
    I also went to Masse in Nashua, they sell Magic Chef, but wasn't impressed
    with their attitude or prices.

    George

    Thanks for the reply George and the info on FHA but I am looking
    at purchasing a FHW. Does the place were you bought your furnace
    sell GAS/FHW ? I understand the dollar difference between FHA and
    FHW is about $100 or two. How much did you pay for your HEIL? 
    
    By the way, I agree with your comment on MASI, their attitude stinks.
                                                                 

    I gotta stop reading these notes when I don't have the time to really
    pay attention :-)
    
    I don't know if Total Air Supply sells FHW.  Their tel. # is
    603-889-0100.  I paid $500 for my 100,000 BTU unit.
    
    George

    It also helps when you call it a boiler!
    
    	FHW --> Boiler
    
    	FHA --> Furnace

Well thru the magic of keywords I have come to this note as the place
to ask my question.

It looks like I'm going to need to replace my FHA gas furnace. Does
any one have any ideas on what is a good brand, and about how much
all of this is going to cost me?

BTW my present furnace is outside the house. And to my knowledge there
are no chimneys, vents ect. inside the house. I would like an inside
model as the outside model has had alot of problems...


Thanks,

vlg

      I am requesting some help in making the required electrical 
    connections to hook up 2 zone valves and a pony relay to an existing
    Teledyne lears gas boiler. The system is forced hot water and was
    originally one zone with one thermostat (No Zone valves). I have
    added a second zone to the system and installed a zone valve in
    both the original zone and the new zone. All the plumbing is hooked
    up, and the original zone is now operating with the installed zone
    valve in the open (Gravity feed position). My confusion is the Taco
    zone valves seem to require a 40 volt transformer to hook up to
    the pony relay. The pony relay has a 40 volt transformer, so no problem
    so far? The exsisting relay on the boiler seems to have a 24 volt
    transformer. I am lost on how to connect the pony relay (or zone
    valves) to the existing system. Any help would be appreciated

    When I replaced my old thrush zone valves with Taco valves I just
    used the same 24 volt transformer that was there and followed the
    wiring diagram that came with the Taco valves and everything worked
    fine. I also had to change the two thermostats because the Thrush
    and old thermostats were a 3 wire system and the Taco is a 2 wire
    system. Also the Taco valves require that the thermostats have a
    heat anticipator that can be set to .9 (if you use non-Taco
    thermostats). I used Honeywell.
    
    I don't know if this helps you any.
    
    Bob

    Yes, this does help. Basically you are saying that I did not need
    to purchase the pony relay, and I can hook the valves right to the
    24 volt transformer on the current system. I appreciate the help
    
                                                         Dan

    I'm in the process of changing my home from electric heat to a gas
    FHW system w/boilermate hot water heater. I've just has the gas
    company install the service and look over my home for a system cost
    estimate. (Small, 2 bedroom raised ranch with finished basement).
    I would like to get a second estimate on the job. Who, in the Nashua,
    N.H. area, would be a good choice for: #1, excellent workmanship;
    #2, fair price?
    
    
    Ross

AMTROL BOILERMATE FEEDBACK?

I have read a lot of entries under "hot water" about everyone's ideas about
what kind of heater is best.  How about some feedback from some who have
gone with the Amtrol Boilermate.  I am pretty much sold on it from the
standpoint of economy and convenience, but I'd appreciate comments from the
experienced.   My system is FHW  oil-fired and I have an ailing tankless
coil that has to go! 

Also, is it a problem to get the controls set up so that in the summer your
boiler definately does not stay hot, but only responds to the demand of the
Boilermate--otherwise the Boilermate won't save you anything.

Thanks,

David

    I've had mine for 4 years..... very satisfied... I installed it
    when I built the house and have not regretted the decision. The
    recovery rate is unbelieveable.  My boiler puts out 64,000 BTU
    ( which is not much, especially for a 2400 sq ft house ). When I
    set up my queen waterbed I was able to completly fill the bed with
    warm water, with the faucet fully open, and never ran low on hot
    water. In fact the boiler was able to cycle on and off as it heated
    up the hot water in the boiler-mate faster than I was using it..
    
    
    			Another satisfied customer, Dave Hartwell
    

    I just finished with a conversion from electric heat to FHW by oil
    and had an AMTROL installed as part of the package. Can't vouch
    for .1 as I've only had it for a week but the boiler appears to
    come on twice a day for maybe 10-15 miutes each time to keep the
    water at the desired temp. I can't imagine going through very 
    much oil in the warm months with this unit. The people who are
    sponsoring the interest free loans for home energy improvement
    are also very high on these units.
    
    Keith
    

re Note 2672.0 by TFH::KINDLER:

We've had one for a year and it's great, especially in comparison to the
tankless heater we used previously.

With the tankless we got "unlimited" hot water at a very limited flow rate. 
(We have a calcium problem in our well water which aggravated the problem.)
With the Amtrol we get unlimited hot water at apparently the same flow rate as
our cold water supply.

Our summer oil usage was "way down" (sorry, I can't quantify).

(At last we can get a bath filled with hot water.  Previously, the water cooled
off faster than we could fill the tub!)

If you can swing the $1000, it's definitely worth it.

Bob

I've had my Amtrol Boilermate for about a month and so far so good. The only
thing I've noticed is the fact the boiler cycles on every time we use hot
water. I don't know if this is normal. I felt that the storage capacity
would be better.

    Has anyone ever heard of the Super-Stor Water Heater?  It is supposedly
    similar to the Amtrol in concept.  It's made by a company called Hydro
    Thermal Systems, Inc. in East Freetown, MA.  It uses a stainless steel
    (#316L gauge) tank, which has me suspicious.  The contractor who
    recommended it claims that the Amtrol has a separate gasket (or some
    such part) that wears or is difficult to get right, while the
    Super-Stor doesn't.
    
       Gary

	I've had one in my old house for ~3 yrs.  a 30 gallon unit.  
	It's more a hi-bred storage tank than an heater.  It has a 
	coil built into it similar to that of a tankless hot water 
	system.  The sourse of heating is usually from a boiler be 
	circulated thru the coil via a small elec. pump.  The boiler 
	I use is a gas fired Burnham 125K btu unit that also provides 
	steam, (older home), for our heat.  The recovery during the 
	summer is always very good and naturally better during 	the 
	winter.  Yeah, it could be more effecient, but I'll sacrafice
	that amount of effeciency for 2-3 times the longevity anyday.

	As a side line... I'm building a new home with 60 gal. Super-
	Stor driven by a Teledyne 125K btu... By the way I recommend
	putting inslation wrap on all the hot water lines.

Good Luck

    We have one, a year old, works fine.
    
    The installer offered us a choice between Amtrol and Super-Stor,
    but recommended Super-Stor.
    
    His reasoning was that he had seen several Amtrols whose coils
    (heat exchangers) became ineffective -- the heat exchanger coil
    is very tightly wound (maybe 5" coil diameter, tops?) and sediment 
    from the to-be-heated water became trapped and built up in the coil.  
    This is repairable, but it costs about $200 to drain, disassemble, 
    clean and re-assemble.
              
    The Super-Stor has a much looser coil , and so doesn't trap sediment.
    On the other hand, you can't disaassemble it to clean, either.
                                          
    dq
    
                                                    
    

I did install my Amtrol 2 1/2 years ago and it has worked like a charm 
since then. 
It also did save quite a few $$.  My house is FHW by gas and I do keep
records. I changed from a regular gasfired WH to the Amtrol at the same
time I changed my boiler to a Hydrotherm. The combined savings for hot 
water are well over 60%.

There are only a few things to consider:
Make the pipes from/to the Amtrol/Boiler as short as possible and put
shutoff valves as close to this loop as possible to shut off the heating 
loops in summer. 
Set the Amtrol thermostat as low as possible (your dishwasher is the
determining factor), because the recovery rate with a regular boiler is
high enough to keep you in hot water all day.

If you use a Mastermind (device to control your boiler outlet temp according
to the outside temp) put in an override so that during the times when the
Amtrol calls for heat the aquastats HIGH limit is the limiting factor, not
the Mastermind.

I paid less than 500.00$ for the Amtrol including the circulator pump 
at Avon Supply in Wakefield where I have a plumbers account and the 
installation was very straightforward.

Rudolf

    re .5 - my neighbor is a heating/plumbing contractor and he just
    installed a Super-Stor system in his new home. I have an oil-fired
    FHW system that is also used to heat the water and am running into
    many of the problems described in several of the notes (inconsistant
    temperatures, not always enough hot water, hot water not always hot).
    He's recommending the Super-Stor system but after reading the notes,
    I'm going to check out the mixing valve. Cost of the SS system
    installed will be approx $950. This includes adding another zone,
    circulator and removing/plugging tankless coil in boiler. Seems like
    a big expense for a new home.

	I have a Weil-Mclain gas furnace which is nine years old.  While
        it is running there is a whistling sound coming from burner area.

	Does anyone have any ideas as to what the problem is ?

Thanks,
 Dick

A guess - Slim Whitman?

If it's gas-fired hot water, there may be a pressure release valve which is
doing the whistling if the upper limit on the thermostat setting is too high.

    Tap the burner lightly with a wooden rod or board. (Burner off,
    of course).  Clean-off the top of the burner.
    
    Then, check it when it fires up again.  You could have some crud
    in one of the outlet holes for the gas.  I had this happen to me
    once.
    
    Lee

    Addendum to .2
    
    The burner is most likely cast iron.  That's why I said tap it lightly,
    and use something soft like wood, rather than a hammer.
    
    Lee

    	I am looking for a way to convert my house from electric to
    FHW oil/gas. Because of the layout of my house, FHA would be fairly
    dificult because I cannot install the heater in a good central location
    downstairs and running ductwork would be even more difficult as
    I'm in a split-leval and there is no basement.
    
    	To make a long story short, I was considering trying to kill
    2 birds with one stone. By rearranging my bathroom (move tub and
    closet so closet is against outside wall) I could put a direct vent
    hot water heater (which I'm going to need soon anyway because my
    electric is due to be replaced soon). I'd like to come out of the hot 
    water heater to a circulating pump to baseboards in the downstairs
    hall and directly upstairs in the living room. This would allow me to 
    (without ripping up to much of my house) install the baseboard in a 
    central location downstairs and in the place it's most needed upstairs.

    	Is this feasible and/or practical ? Is there any significant
    savings to be had or is a FHW w/boilermate in the same price range
    as a direct vent water heater (under $500). I know that there is
    some risk that if you run out of hot water you couldn't heat the
    house but the water heater recovery is usually quick enough (i.e. 
    15-30 minutes) that it doesn't seem like it would be a problem. I'll 
    still have the electric baseboard as a backup if needed too.
    
	Ray

    re. .7  Using the hot water heater to heat the house.
    	The BIG problem with your "design" has to do with circulation of
    the hot water.  The best thing to do is simply convert to FHW.  Put in
    the furnace.  Run the top floor on one zone.  Run the basement (you do
    have a basement, it's just that you have converted it to a family room
    or something) on another zone.  This will provide you with both the
    heat you need and the hot water you want.
    	Trying to heat the house with an electric hot-water heater seems to
    be a little expensive!!!
    Ric

    re:8
    
    	Just a nit but when I said direct vent water heater, I probably 
    should have said direct vent gas hot water heater (even though an
    electric is a no vent water heater).
    
    	Ray

    
    Hummmmmm.   Looks like your between a rock an a hard place on
    this one.  If you want to have FHW, your going to have to put
    in atleast a 6'x6' furnace room.  Then you can put your hot water
    heater in there or use the furnace tank.
    
    From what I can see in your base note,  call a contractor and have
    in pour a 6x6 room off the back lower wall.  Put a small roof on it
    and head the stack pipe out that way.  
    
    Now is the cost of the room, plumbing and furnace going to be worth
    what you want to do.
    
    At yur service,
    JD

    Re:11
    
    	Doesn't hardly sound worth it. The only other possibility would
    be a pulse gas heater with boiler. I could remove the existing 40
    gal. electric hot water heater and put this in that closet. I believe
    I could find a way to get the LP gas line in and a PVC vent pipe
    out (either over or under the tub). The only problem with this is
    from what I heard, the pulse furnaces are not to bad but when you
    get into a boiler set-up for it, it's big bucks. There is not enough
    room in the closet for both the furnace and the electric hot water
    heater. 
    
    	Would a Thermar tied to a circulating pump do the trick in this
    case ? Are the Thermar hot water heaters (demand heater) set up
    as pulse so as to only require a PVC vent ? If yes, could I also get 
    hot water from it as well as pumping it through baseboard ? Last but 
    not least, would this be cost effective or would my gas bill be so
    close to my electric bill so as to make it not worth while ?

    	Ray

Is the "Super-Stor" the same as something called an "Aqua-Booster"?  I'm 
considering installing an aqua-booster, since my tankless, which outputs
decent hot water, has too wide a fluctuation in water temperature.

Also, what is the cost differential between the Boilermate (heating zone
controlled) vs the Aqua-Booster/Super-Stor, which uses the tankless coil
to heat the water?

Any other significant pros/cons of the two types, that would help in decision
making? One person said the boilermates coil can clog up.  Seems that the
aqua-booster would be easier to install, no need to open up the heating
lines, you only have to deal with the cold and hot water supply lines.

Also, who in Central MA/Metro West area sells these things the cheapest?

Steve

re: .11

No.  The Super-Stor is the same concept as the Boilermate, not the Aqua-Booster.

It's difficult to judge the cost.  The level on our oil tank barely changed
from May to mid-November, so we couldn't have used very much oil for the
hot water (we went with the Super-Stor, based on the responses to my earlier
question in this note).  

   Gary

RE: .11:

> considering installing an aqua-booster, since my tankless, which outputs
> decent hot water, has too wide a fluctuation in water temperature.

Tankless output should be constant, if everything is operating correctly.
The "tempering" valve should be able to keep the temperature relatively
constant as long as the boiler temperature always exceeds your desired
hot water temperature.

I have well water, and the thermal control gizmo in the tempering valve
on my tankless system usually lasts less than a year.  After replacing
these a few times, I now clean them and rotate my stock of about five of
them.  The ones I clean seem to work longer than when new.

You might just have a bad tempering valve-- and any new "boilermate" or
whatever will probably have a similar problem if it too uses a tempering
valve.
                             --tom

re .13

  I have a tempering valve, it really doesn't help much.

  I'm going from well water (around 30-40 psi) to town water (60 psi)
 and I expect the tankless performance to degrade due to the increased flow
 rate of the water throught the coil. Will find out tomorrow in the morning
 shower.

  Among the Boilermate, Aquabooster, etc. what is the least expensive option?
  (in terms of up front cost)

  Steve

    re -1
    
    I think you missed .13's point.  Yes you have a tempering valve but these
    little buggers sometimes don't work properly.  I have a tankless system
    and town water with lots of pressure and my system had the same problem
    you described.  Beginning of shower would be hot and after 5 to 20
    minutes, down goes the temp untill you get cold water.  I replaced the
    mixing valve (about $8.00 at a plumbing supply house) and like magic,,,
    all the hot water I want,,, as long as I want!!!! with no temperature
    drop in the least.   Try it,, you may save yourself some money.  In
    fact,,, buy two,,,, I've been told that sometimes the new ones don't
    work properly either.
    
     Let us know how you make out.
    
    Bruce May
    

   Seems like the best note for this sooo...

   I'm considering switching from oil to gas for heating.

   My gas company is offering a deal where they will install a new
   burner for free but there is a 6.??/month rental charge for the
   burner (+ gas costs of course).  They are also giving $100 cash
   for making the conversion.  Which just makes the first 1 1/2 years
   rental free.

   My question is how much does a new gas burner (not furnace, just a burner)
   typically cost to buy (and install)?.  Or, where could I find this info?

   I'd rather own it than rent it.  Best case scenerio would be to buy a
   burner, have the gas co. install it for free and get the $100 to offset
   the cost of the burner.  Not sure the gas co. would go for this but I'll
   explore this with them if I can find the price of burners.

   Thanks,
   Mark

I converted last year.  I had this Gas guy come into the house with
a slightly used gas burner and converted the oil furnace.  It was
especially easy because I had gas coming in for the hot water heater.

He put the pipe in from the meter to the furnace.

All this for $350.00!

The toughest part was draining the dredges of oil out of the tank.
I had nearly burned all of it off (except 10 gallons plus sludge).
I was stupid enough to then cut the tank in half with a sawzall
to get it out the  doors.  Still, getting rid of 10 gallons of
oil sludge was the worst of it.

I thumb my nose whenever I hear the radio commercial saying it will
cost $2000.00 to switch and how "chancy" it will all be using gas heat.
Faugh!

The Gas Connection (out of the guy's home) was the name of his business.
Someone referred me to him and now he's come and gone.

    Re .14:
    
>   I converted last year.  I had this Gas guy come into the house with
>   a slightly used gas burner and converted the oil furnace.  It was
>   especially easy because I had gas coming in for the hot water heater. 
>   
>   He put the pipe in from the meter to the furnace.
>   
>   All this for $350.00!
    
    I've been looking to do the same thing.  How did your gas bill last
    year compare with your oil bill in previous years?  (I'd MUCH rather
    pay Boston Gas' regulated price than put up with being gouged every
    time the price of oil fluctuates.)  I'd like to think that oil and gas
    fuel costs are roughly equivalent, even with a conversion burner.
    
>   I thumb my nose whenever I hear the radio commercial saying it will
>   cost $2000.00 to switch and how "chancy" it will all be using gas heat.
>   Faugh!
    
    I have stronger sentiments than that, which I couldn't enter here. 8^)

     <<< Note 1566.14 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

/ The toughest part was draining the dredges of oil out of the tank.
/ I had nearly burned all of it off (except 10 gallons plus sludge).
/ I was stupid enough to then cut the tank in half with a sawzall
/ to get it out the  doors.  Still, getting rid of 10 gallons of
/ oil sludge was the worst of it.

I'm in the process of doing the same thing now.  I've got about 45 gallons
in the tank and when its gone, out goes the oil furnace and the tank.

 Q: What does a 250 gallon oil tank weigh?  

 Q: .14 says he sawed it in half with a saz-all.  Any danger of explosion?
	The thought of sawing into a fuel storage tank makes my skin get
	goose bumps.  

 Q: I'd love to get this tank out of my house, what have others done to get
	rid of them?

    
    re recycling oil tank:
    
    I'd be willing to take one off of someone's hands if they could get
    it to Sterling, Ma. I don't have a truck, but I'll help with the
    lifting and grunting part.
    
     Bob

    The previous owner of my house converted from gas to oil.  The gas
    connections were still in the house, but the meter had been removed.  I
    was thinking about switching to gas heat and adding a gas water heater
    in the future and buying a gas stove now (the electric stove was shot). 
    To convert completely to gas, there would have be no charge but I would
    have to lease the burner and hot water heater (there was no option to
    have one or the other).  If I only wanted it for cooking, there would
    have been a $1600 charge since the gas had been shutoff at the street
    and the piping was >30 years old and had to be replaced.  Either option
    would have taken 2 months to accomplish.  I bought an electric stove
    and stayed with oil.

    Re .-1:
    
    That points out an aspect of the "convert to gas for free" line
    which isn't usually emphasized.  IF you rent burners from the
    gas company THEN they'll hook you up for free.  However, if you
    just want the connection to the street you'll have to pay for
    it.  I suspect the lease agreement probably requires a commitment
    for several years to cover the installation costs of the gas line.

    Commitment, hell!  Who ya gonna call.  The gas company on your street
    is a monopoly.  They got you by the gas pipe and they ain't lettin' go.
    
    Stan

As for installations done by the gas company, I would run away as fast as I 
could.  I have just had a boiler replaced because the gas company screwed up
the installation 4 years ago.  I would NEVER have the gas company do any kind
of installations unless I absolutely had to.

Ed..

Do "gas companies" do installation?  Around here, they refer you to a local
heating contractor.  I get amused by the ads about the "big, impersonal" gas
company, as I never have to deal with them other than by sending them a check
for the gas itself.  I deal with a local, reliable and prompt business for
my gas boiler, which doesn't need the sort of continual maintenance that oil
burners need.

				Steve

re .21

I had sort of the opposite experience.  We had gas plumbing done, and then
someone from the gas company came out to give his check.  It seemed to take a
long time, and when I went into the basement to talk to him, he was fixing the
connection to our furnace.  The person who originally did it (probably the
previous owner to caused our house fire from his wood stove installation)
stripped the threads, and this guy from the gas company was fixing a problem
he neither caused nor was asked to fix.

They may be a monopoly, but they are strictly regulated.

								-- Chuck Newman

I don't know about gas companies doing installations, but I've had a bad
experience with a gas company's technicians screwing up a service call that
they did under a service contract.  I documented it elsewhere in this notesfile.

Re: 16

You'll need two people to carry out the halves of the tank.
As for explosion:  I dunno. I'm alive.  Actually, though flammable, the
vapors aren't highly ignitable (check with others on this).  The heat
geenrated by the saw blade showed a *little* white smoke at times, but 
we cooled things down if we got concerned about it.

45 gallons is quite a bit.  if you can, turn your heat up to 90 and
open your windows to burn off what you can and drain it dry.  Most
places that come to suck out your tank will only do it for more than
half a tank or something like that.

When we couldn't run the oil furnace anymore, we drained what we could
(about 2 five gallon buckets or so), then we cut it open.

Inside there's a muck and sludge (after many years, no wonder).  Use a
broad blade and scrape this out and into the bucket.  Wear clothes
that you expect to get soiled!

(now to read the other replies)

Now the story of my gas conversion:

The oil tank I had, had a leak.  An oil man came out, turned a screw, spread
some kitty litter (to absorb the oil on the floor and charged us $40).

That would have been bad enough except that the leak persisted.

We called them back warning them not to bill us this time because they
did not perform the service last time.  They discovered that the leak
was from corrosion at the bottom of the tank and that the tank would
have to be replaced.  In the meantime, they put a magnetic patch (a strong
magnet with a foam stopper) up against the leak.

How much for a new tank, I asked?  About $500.00 said they. Sayonara,
fella.  They did send us another bill which we fought and never paid.

My neighbor told me of this guy who did gas conversions.  As previously
mentioned, he did it all for $350.00.  He's licensed and works for
himself and not the "big, impersonal" gas company.

Service organizations on both the gas and oil sides can give you stories
good and bad.  What do you want and how much do you want to pay?

I wanted gas, no bulky oil tank with oil smelling up my house, no buy-now
and lock in your rate spiels, no arab intervention on my oil bills,
no surprize fill-ups according to their schedule of rounds.

I'll be chancy.  A gas leak is easier to clean up than an oil spill
(unless it explodes, of course), but I'll take those odds. 

P.S. I don't have a fear of flying in airplanes either.

    Re: .26
    
    Where did you bring the two halfs of the oil tank?
    
    Marc H.

I gave one to my carpenter friend who used it for mixing cement!
It made a nice trough.

Remember, I cut it top to bottom in half and not across the middle.
I took the other half to the dump.

Local dumps will vary on their rules about what you can bring in.
Check it out first.

I suppose you could bury it, make a planter of it.

Watch out for the cut edge though.

MM

re .16:

One technique for preventing a fire while cutting up an oil tank is to put
a chunk of dry ice in it and let it sublime for a while.  This fills the
tank with CO2, which won't support combustion.  Just be sure to leave a
vent open if you do this so pressure won't build up in the tank.

This is what they did at an old gas station when they dug up the old tanks
(although they didn't cut up the tanks, they just hauled them away)

-Mike

On the fire prevention aspect:
 The dry ice idea sounds clever, but I doubt I can cram in down the 1 1/4" pipe.
 Would spraying a dry chemical fire extinguisher into the tank before cutting
 help, or would that just be a waste of an extinguisher?

On the disposal:
 Maybe I can find someone who needs a charcoal pit for a pig roast and get
 rid of half a tank that way.  Would the whole tank make a nice pontoon for a
 dock?  Would half make a nice kiddy pool?  Could I make two very secure 
 dog houses?

The ideas are endless, but nix on the kiddie pool.

Maybe you can get Christo to do something with old oil tanks.

Is combustion really a danger if you pause and let the blade cool off
frequently?  I thought heating oil has a relatively high combustion point.

    Turn it into a secure storage box for your air shredder.
    

>On the fire prevention aspect:
> The dry ice idea sounds clever, but I doubt I can cram in down the 1 1/4" pipe.
> Would spraying a dry chemical fire extinguisher into the tank before cutting
> help, or would that just be a waste of an extinguisher?

You can break up the dry ice into smaller pieces with an ice pick or something.
It's not as hard as water ice.  You don't need all that much, since the CO2
formed takes up much more volume than the DI.

The dry chemical fire extinguisher would be a waste since it won't do anything
to stop the fumes or anything.  However, discharging a CO2 extinguisher down
the filler pipe will do the same as the dry ice except it'll be easier.

re -1:  I've seen sparks from a metal saw start a fire.  Those things throw
a lot of sparks when cutting steel.

-Mike

   If you just switch from an OIL burner to a GAS burner in the same furnace,
   is there any way to figure out the amount of gas you might use to achieve
   the same heating as a pariticular amount of oil would provide?

   i.e. looking for something like...

      200 gals burned = x c.f. (cubic feet?) of gas burned

   to keep my house at 65 for 30 days.

    To compare gas to oil it's easy ... determine the calorific value
    of the oil and the calorific value of the gas.
    
    Say you use 200 gals of oil ... this = 200*b BTU where b is the
    calorific value of the oil expressed as BTU (or you can use calories
    or kilo-joules as long as you use the same type conversion for each
    fuel.
    
    Then the number of cu units of gas = 200*b / g where g is the calorific
    value of the gas expressed as BTU (or cals or kilojoules) and the
    conversion number used will determine whether you get cu. metres, or
    feet.
    
    Multiply that by the cost per cu. unit (make sure you're in the right
    units again, and hey presto there's your likely maximum cost.
    
    Given that a gas burner is more efficient at burning more of the fuel,
    you can probably look at 5-10% less, and because you no longer have
    a forced combustion blower with electric motor, your electric bill
    should drop.  Beware of the pilot light though ... they can consume
    a lot of gas.
    
    The calorific value numebrs I think I've seen in here somewhere, but
    cannot remember where.  Otherwise, your oil supplier should be able to
    give you the number for oil, and the gas company that for gas.
    
    Stuart

Modern gas burners don't have pilot lights.  At least mine doesn't.

I have a relatively new Burnham gas-fired FHW furnace (purchased by previous
owner).  It lacks a power vent damper, yet a wiring harness in the control 
module is clearly labeled saying that it is designed to be connected to one.

Has anyone had any DIY experience in retrofiting a power vent damper to a
furnace designed for one?  I spoke to a Burnham customer service rep who
refered me to a local supplier.  Yet he said I should have the damper installed
by a professional.  It looks pretty easy to me.  Any experience out there?

Thanx in advance,

Brian

Well, I er ah, ahem, yes. I bought one.  We installed the boiler ourselves
and I connected all the flue pipe and all and then chickened out.  Seems there
is some issue with the local code as to whether or not they are approved for
use in Nashua.  I also read the instructions on looked at the circuit diagram
on the damper and there was another issue to consider and that was that the one
I bought from Burnham for a Burnham furnace says that once you plug that thing
in, you're committed.  If you unplug it, the furnace ain't ever supposed to
work again without it.  That is unless you replace the control module.  Seems
the concern is, you definitely don't want the furnace running if there is even
a hint of a chance that the flue is blocked.  Since it was already cold by the
time I installed the system I decided I'd wait till warmer weather to play with
the thing and find out if it worked properly. 

Where are you located?

-Bob

RE: Well, I er ah, ahem, yes. I bought one.  

>Where are you located?
Arlington, MA, since you ask.  But thanx anyway for the warnings.
I'm tempted to back off for another reason: cost.  The best price I
got was $140 for the vent damper, plus whatever miscellaneous expense
for extra flue duct matterials I might need.  Since my total annual
gas bill (heat+HW+stove) is c. $650, I can't believe I'd save more
than $20-$30 a year.  The lengthy payback makes me feel momentarily
lazy.  Also, you're right.  Better to do this work during the
off season so if you goof you don't freeze to death.

Brian

    
    	I've had a noisy boiler for about 3 weeks now, and it's driving me
    crazy.  Mainly because it never did this before, and it doesn't sound
    healthy.  I believe the boiler for my FHW system is actually boiling the
    water inside, and the pipes carry the noise to the entire house with 
    every bubble or expansion.  
    
    	A little history....  This house was 23 yrs old when we bought it
    in April, with the original boiler but new burner.  This fall when we
    really started to use the heat, there was air in the lines making
    noise.  No problem, I bled the air out and all was quiet again.  Then
    I noticed there was no heat upstairs.  Come to find out the automatic
    feed valve was broken, and the previous owner had installed a regular
    valve in line, which was normally closed, and left a sign saying "when 
    pressure gets below 10 psi, open the valve until it is above 10".  So 
    now I notice that the pressure is close to 0, so I opened it and
    brought the pressure back up.  Heat comes back on upstairs but so do
    the noisy radiators, so I iterate between bleeding and filling, and
    finally get a quite house.  Then one night at about 3 am, I heard
    banging in my pipes, and it has continued ever since.  I've since
    checked my expansion tank (seems ok - water in the top, empty bottom)
    and noticed what sounds like boiling in the boiler.  I replaced the
    bleeder valve on top of the expansion tank, but this didn't solve
    anything.  (Also, the bleeder valve I replaced it with was a newer
    smaller version - the old one was a copper ball-type with a valve and
    cap at the top.  The new one has just a valve that opens enought to let
    "10 drips in 1 minute.")  This boiling (popping and bubbling) can be 
    heard throughout the house through the pipes.  Last week I had our oil 
    company look at it (since I had a 2 yr contract with them) and told 
    him my problems.  The oil man said I definitely need a new feeder valve 
    (covered by them!) and said he would add some "Formula 5" (not covered by 
    them!) which would stop the boiling.  He said that some boilers will 
    boil the water - even new ones - and this is what he adds.
    
    	My question is, why did it start boiling now?  Did I damage
    something when I brought the pressure down to 0 (at least a couple
    times)?
    
    	Dave

     When I had boiling water in my GHW system, it was because the high 
limit cutoff switch was broken.

    Two things that I notice about that problem - the pressure should be
    about 25 psi and the boiler temperature should not be too high - not
    above 200 F.  I try to keep the boiler temp. as low as possible - 170
    max. and I have a tankless hot water heater.  
    
    Also, make sure that the air purging valves are okay and not clogged. 
    There should be one on the boiler and one on the expansion tank.  If
    there is air in the system, then you will have banging.
    
    Peter

    
    Agree with .2 - this is most probably air in the system.  You may have
    to bleed them several times to get it all out, especially if the
    automatic purge valve(s) are not located significantly higher than the rest
    of the system.
    
    If this keeps happening you could have a small leak somewhere that is
    sucking in air.  This often happens after a FHW system has overheated
    or if the pressure has gone up for any reason - usually a bad
    compression joint or throttle valve.
    
    Was the system drained & cleaned recently?
    
    Regards,
    
    C.
    
                                

    
    
    re -.1, -.2
    
    	Thanks for the feedback.  It may be there is air in the lines. 
    That's why I installed the new bleader valve over the expansion tank.
    
    	I tried to draw my set-up below... very simplified.
    
    		
    
    
    
    					    __ --- new bleeder valve
    					    || 
    					 ___||___
    		  _______________________|      |___________
    		 / _________________________  ______________to house->
    		/ /                         ||
    		| |		     -------||-------
    		| |		     |              |
    		| |		     |    water     |
    		| |		     |              | --- expansion tank
    		| |		     |______________|
    		| |		     |              |
    		| |		     |              |
    		| |		     |     air      |
    		| |		     |              |
       	     to boiler		     |______________|		
    		 |
    		 V
    
    
    	I've bled the upstairs radiators and everything is quiet up there
    (except for the clanging coming from the boiler).  The noise definitely 
    sounds like it's coming from the boiler, and only happens when the
    boiler has been on for 5 minutes, and for about 5 minutes after it's
    shut off.  In other words, the pump can be on and running and
    everything will be quiet, and even when the boiler first turns on it
    won't make any noise, but as soon as it heats up a little the popping
    starts.
    
    	I've also got a tankless system with a booster.   The temperature
    ranges were adjusted when the oil man came, and he turned the upper
    temp down to about 170.  It used to be over 200!
    
    	At any rate, they are installing the feeder valve as I write this,
    so they have to drain the system.  They are also going to add the
    "Formula 5", so I'm hoping one of these will fix the problem.
    
    	I'll keep you posted.
    
    
    	Dave

Talk of the pressure brought a question to my mind.  I have recently had a new
boiler put in for a steam system.  I noticed that the presure gauge is often at
zero, and when it is not, it does not go much above maybe 3.  What is this gauge
telling me?  Should it be running higher?  Is there an optimum level?  How does
this affect gas usage and heat generation?

Ed..

    re .0
    
    Your "bandaided" system got itself in such a bind that it will take a
    lot of patience and "bleeding" to get it resolved.  The following is
    "typical".  If you don't understand, or if after looking at your system
    it does not make a grain of sense, your situation is beyond DYIing. 
    Spend the $$$ on a plumber, you'll sleep better.
    
    First, you need to completely bleed the system a branch at a time. Each
    branch is a closed loop.  Down at the boiler, there should be a faucet
    type valve near the circulator and a shut off valve some place near
    that in the same line.  Close the shut off valve.  Connect a garden
    hose to the faucet, the other end in a bucket of water (outside or in a
    sink). 
    
    Make sure the thermostat is so low that the circulator will not come
    on. 
    
    Then, open the faucet slightly and watch air bubble out in the bucket. 
    Keep an eye on your pressure valve and don't let it drop below 75% of
    normal, when it gets there, shut off the faucett and let water enter
    the system replacing the air pockets. (Good time to grab a beer,
    coffee, whatever) When the pressure returns to normal, repeat the
    bleeding.  As long as the shut off valve stays closed, incoming water
    will force the air to the bleed valve.  Keep repeating this until the
    bubbles stop.  Then open the shut off valve and go to another branch.
    
    +-//////////---+
    |              |
    |              |
    |              +===\ (faucet)
    |              |
    |             -+- (shut off valve)
    |              |
    |              |
    |             ### (circulator pump)
    |              |
    |              |
    |          +-------+ # (pressure valve)
    |          |       |/
    |          |       |
    |          |       +--------(water main)
    |          +-------+
    |              |		
    +--------------+
    
    Now then, this can be VERY time consuming, especially in older systems. 
    Once you are done and are feeling positively great now that you have
    mastered the art of bleeding a heating system, have faith, your job is
    not done.  It seems that water that has just entered a pressurized
    heating system will give off air the first time it is raised to
    temperature and pressure.  I don't know why, I never did good in
    chemistry, but it does.  Sooooo, you will have to repeat the process in
    a few days, and maybe more than once.  However, each time the amount of
    bleeding required is considerably reduced.  I have a relative who
    spent the better part of one whole day doing the initial bleeding and a
    couple of hours each weekend for a month before bubbles stopped coming
    out.
    
    The nice part is that you get more or less instant gratification as
    soon as you finish with a branch; close the bleed valve, open the
    shutoff valve and turn the thermostat back up and NOT hear the rush of
    bubbles and DO feel heat in the netherlands of the heating system.
    
    Luck
    

    I think my expansion tank is shot (6 yrs old).  The oil man tapped on the
    lower part of it and it made a thud sound.  He said he could replace it
    for $95 (he said it was 30 something units).  I'm also getting a
    lot of air in the system.  The oil man just purged the whole system
    and within a week it was gurgling again.
    
    Is changing the expansion tank a D-I-Y operation?  It appears to
    simply be screwed on but it would appear that you'd be inundated
    with water if you just unscrewed it.  I take it you have to drain
    the system.  The expansion tank looks like it could be one heavy thing
    if it's filled with water.  About how much would it weigh?
    How much are these things?
    
    -al

    re .7
    
    A thud?  In some designs, the expansion tank can collect sediment.  If
    enough of it collects, it will, indeed, make a THUD when smacked.  You
    could drain the tank and sediment. Usually, that makes the thud go
    away.
    
    By the way, why care?  Is the tank's integrity compromised (does it
    leak) keeping it from functioning as an expansion tank? Or is the "oil
    man" blaming it for the re-bubbling that is normal when a system has
    been just bled?  Also, did the oil man drain and clean the expansion
    tank before he bled it?
    
    If it were mine, which it is not, I would see if I can drain out
    sediment from the expansion tank and re-bleed myself.
    
    Luck
    
    

re .8:

Expansion tanks now have a rubber diaphram, like pump water tanks now.  The
lower half is filled with pressurized air, the upper with water.  If the
diaphram leaks, the air will escape and the bottom will fill with water (and
'thud' when hit), and it won't allow for compression (water is incompressible)
causing troubles.

re .7:

Look for a tire valve at the bottom of the tank, if it exists, try pressurizing
it.  If problem goes away for a little while, it's the tank.

As to replacing it, it just screws in, if you can handle a pipe wrench and know
how to drain/refill/bleed air from your system, it's not too hard.

Water weighs around 8.3 lbs/gal, or 64 lbs /cu.ft, measure the tank and do some
math to guess the weight.  Expansion tanks run around $30 at Spags or Somerville
Lumber.

-Mike

    re: .5
    No, you don't want pressure in a steam system, particularly.  All
    you need is enough pressure to get the steam up into the radiators,
    which isn't much.  You could run it higher, I suppose, but I don't
    think it would buy you anything to speak of.

re.5

	On my steam boiler there is a pressure gauge as well as a pressure
	sensing cut-off switch. The switch is adjustable down to less than
	.5 PSI. When the bozo who installed it set that switch, he put it to
	about 7 or 8 PSI. Well needless to say I had steam coming out of 
	everywhere when the gauge read more than about 2 PSI. There are even
	pressure relief valves on the steam pipes that were blowing like
	crazy. It wasn't until I picked up a new air vent for a radiator
	(that was rated at .5 PSI) that I set the cut off switch back down
	to .5 PSI. Now, when the pressure builds up to greater than .5 PSI,
	the burner goes off (although it doesn't happen that often). Since
	the pressure gauge starts reading at 1 PSI, it never really moves, that
	I have waited to see.

Peter

    
    RE .4
    
    I assume the expansion tank is down in the basement?  I don't
    know about US codes, but it's not the place I'd choose for an
    automatic bleed valve.  Air finds its way to the highest point
    eventually.
    
    Is it standard practice to do that on FHW systems in the US?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

>    I assume the expansion tank is down in the basement?  I don't
>    know about US codes, but it's not the place I'd choose for an
>    automatic bleed valve.  Air finds its way to the highest point
>    eventually.
    
On my system, the expansion tank and auto bleed valve are connected to a special
device called an "air separator" (??).  My understanding is that as the
water passes through, any air is trapped in an internal chamber, to which the
bleed valve is connected:

                                bleed
                                 valve
                                 | |
                         --------   -------
                        /                  \
                       /    air chamber     \
              --------/------     -----------\---------------
                             \
            flow ->           \  baffle
              --------\                       ---------------
                       \                     /
                        \                   /
                         ------     -------/
                               |   |

                             Expansion
                               tank

I probably don't have the internals quite right.
 

    
    	Final update: (a little late, but it's here...)
    
    	Well, my oil men came and did quite a bit of work - all under
    the service contract so I didn't have to pay a cent!  Unfortunately,
    since they replaced more than one thing, I don't know for sure what the
    cause of the banging was, but I strongly suspect the expansion tank.
    
    	They came in to replace the automatic feeder valve that was
    buggered, and they ended up replacing the expansion tank and the auto
    bleed valve as well (naturally in order to do this, they had to drain
    the whole system, then refill).  They said the expansion tank was
    all rusted at the top, so maybe water wasn't able to flow easily in and
    out to equalize the pressure in the system - banging pipes.  Since
    they've left I haven't heard the noise again.  Oh, and I can still hear
    the boiler boiling, but you can't hear it unless your right next to the
    boiler.  They didn't add the "formula 5" because they said it wasn't
    needed.   
    
    	The system bleeds itself automatically - almost.  I do have another
    auto bleed valve at the top of the zone in the master bedroom that I have 
    to leave open a bit, but after the first couple runs through most of the 
    air was out.
    
    	Nice, quiet, safe, economical heat.  On to my next problem.....
    
    Dave (Patting himself on the back for getting the service contract
    instead of the free oil!)
    

	This looks like as good as place as any...

	I don't have any "boiling" noises but I do have an irratating
	rhythmic tapping sound that I can't track down!  It seems to be
	coming from everywhere and nowhere.  It sounded like the pipes
	were banging into each other, since it only happened when the 
	circulators were running. But, I watched the pipes in the basement
	and nothing is moving!

	It's  a 3 year old FHW, oil-fired furnace with 4 zones.

	Any hints on how I might track it down?

	-TB

    Look where pipes go through floors and walls and through clamps.
    Often the pipes will rub on the holes and the expansion and contraction
    can generate noises that can drive you crazy trying to locate them.
    
    Stuart

There are several physical processes of interest here.

	1) Pipe expansion - When hot water is shunted to a circuit the pipe 
	   expands due to the temperature.  Since most pipes are fixed to
	   beams with clamps and run through holes in floors, etc. they will
	   creak and rub when a zone comes on.  To cure this you have to locate 
	   the rub and eliminate it.  This only happens when the zone comes
	   on.

	2) Hammer - This phenomenon would be similar to water hammer.  Since
	   water is incompressible, if there is something that causes the water
	   to "jerk" (bad rotor in your circulator pump so that there are
	   rapid pressure changes?) motion will be imparted to the piping.
	   Again you have to find the cause and eliminate it.

	3) Mechanical - An imbalance in the circulator pump could cause 
	   vibration which will cause the pipes to move.  This should be 
	   easily detected by holding the pipe near the circulator pump and
	   feeling it move.

These motions can be sneaky and happen anywhere in the system.  Trial and error
are about the only way to track them down.

Also, don't forget leverage.  It can multiply motions.  And the long pipe
runs tend to be inside walls and floors where you can't get at them. :-)

		__small vibration		    large vibration__
	       /						     \
	(pump)=====||===================================================
		    \__clamp		\__pipe

Luck,
Stan

	It definately sounds like metal-to-metal and it dies down as the 
	circulator pump shuts off.  I don't know which circulator it is 
	though.  Guess I'll have to work one zone at a time to find out
	which!  Not sure what I'll be able to do then though...

	It's not a LOUD noise but it seems that now I'm sensitized to it
	so when I hear it, it sounds like Thor banging away on an anvil!!

	It drives me nuts!!!!!!! 

If you let the circulators run for a while, the pipes should expand and reach
a maximum size.  If the noises keep up, it's not expansion.  Some of the 
heating pipes in my house are hung by a metal hook or strap.  Others are 
clamped to the joists with u clamps.  The ones with u clamps make noises when 
the pipes expand, the hung ones don't.  Some of my baseboard units also make 
noise when they expand (the ones installed by the previous owner).  I think
there is some sort of wrapping that can be done to eliminate the friction that
causes the "ticking" during expansion.

    
    
    If it's rhythmic and constant it's probably in the pump as you suspect.
    Put a screwdriver point on the pump and the handle against your ear. It
    will sound very loud if it's something like a worn rotor or bearing.   
    Work away from the pump along the inlet & outlet pipes to see if it
    gets louder in either direction.  (Old technique for finding noises
    in car engines!)
    
    If it is pipe expansion/contraction you can cure it wherever you can
    reach by making sleeves out of plastic water or milk containers (I
    think it's the translucent pfte type).  Lube the sleeves with graphite
    lubricant (graphite has no smell when the pipes get hot and no reaction
    to copper) and slip them under the loosened pipe clamps & hangers or
    where pipes go through joists.
    
    I'm not sure about baseboard radiators, but panel radiators are usually
    hung with a nylon-washered screw that goes through a slot to allow
    for expansion.  Check to see how the baseboard rads are mounted, if
    the mount holes are slotted, the screw should not be over-tight.
    
    Another possibility is rust or sediment in the boiler - it sometimes
    causes a low ticking noise that only happens when circulation is on.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    An easy way to find the source of this type of thing is to take a yard
    stick (or dowel).. bite on one end and touch the mechanism... pipe,
    motor etc with the other end... you will "hear" the source extremely
    well.  A lot of auto mechanics use this technique on cars.
    
    That is unless after the the tapping you hear........
    
    
    "NEVERMORE"

Is the rubbing at the clamps harmful?  I find that the noise doesn't bother
me, and I'm not interested in making work for myself.  So if the noise is the
only bad effect, I'll live with it happily.

   Gary

Hi!

I think my boiler is boiling too!

I'm building a new home, and I'm now at the point where I'm the not so proud 
owner of a brand new heating system.

The system has two zones off a boiler.  With both zones pumping, nothing 
exciting happens.  But when one zone pump stops, the pipes around the boiler
start shaking noticeably and making banging noises, the pressure gauge on the 
boiler starts twitching, the temperature gauge on the boiler zooms up to 235 
degrees and the safety valve on the boiler releases and starts spitting hot 
water onto the floor.

The manual for the boiler mentions the need to maintain a certain minimum
flow rate of water through the boiler and describes the installation of some 
sort of by-pass valve to insure that the minimum rate is maintained.
I don't think these instructions were followed.

My current guess as to what is causing this behavior is that the minimum flow 
rate is not met when only one zone is operating, and the water in the boiler 
is turning to steam before the high temperature cut-off can react.

Does this sound like a likely guess?  I'm not too sure about this as it
seems to take the high cut-off quite a while to shut off the burner in this
case, and yet with both zones operating, the high cut-off seems to function
properly.

If this is what is happening, how hard is this on the system?  Am I in
danger of cracking the boiler, or pipes?  Or can the system stand this
for a while until the situation can be addressed and a by-pass added?

Anybody seen this type of problem?

    Greg

    When the system runs on 2 zones does the boiler ever shut off (but keep
    the pump going). What are the current set points? If the boiler is at
    235 degrees it should not be running PERIOD (good flow or NO flow). The
    Min. flow in owners manual might be for efficientcy purpose. Either the
    set points are wrong, or the controller is messed up. What does it do
    when it calls for no heat? Does it maintain temperature (might not if
    no tankless hot water). Does the boiler ever (even with 2 zones on)
    shutoff while the pumps keep running (it should, unless extremly cold
    outside). I would get the persons butt down there who installed it
    FAST. I would think it could do serious damage (maybe already) to the
    boiler and might even be dangerous. It might be worth HIRING someone
    else to give it a good look over too.

I agree with .24, either the high temp. cutout switch isn't working or
the high limit is set (way) too high.

Another possibility is the circulator pump is running or installed backwards.
This happened in the house I grew up in, the circulator pump died so my father
replaced it.  Heating system started blowing out the relief valve fairly often
(we started calling it Old Faithless).  Finally realized the noise in the
baseboards when the heat kicked on in the AM came in the opposite direction it
used to.  This means the water was flowing the opposite way, in other words
the circulator pump was flowing the wrong way.  Reversing it cured it.

-Mike

Hi!

Looks like I have to tell you the whole story, well part of the whole story.

This is somewhat different from the usual boiler system as the two zones
are not going to a bunch of baseboard radiators, but are connected to two 
water to air heat exchangers, one in the basement, and one in the attic.  
So this is a FHA system powered by water.  Hot water is supplied by one of 
those Amtrol storage tanks powered off the boiler.  It is currently turned 
off.  

When the system was first turned on, both zones ran continuously as the
system was unable to bring the house up to temperature.  The boiler cycled
on for about 30 seconds, and then hit the high limit of 170 degrees and 
cycled off for about 30 seconds.  One funny thing was that the boiler 
temperature would drop far past the 140 degree low limit, down to about
110 or so.  Each air handler was supposed to output 46K Btu, the boiler 
output is about 97K Btu.  It seemed like we were not getting enough heat
out of the Air handlers.

Checking the attic air handler showed more than a 35 degree drop across
input and output.  The air handler contains the zone pump.  The owner's 
manual says that the minimum size pipe to be used for supply/return is 
3/4 inch and no more than a 140 foot loop (calculated value with extra
feet added for turns).  The contractor ran 168 feet (lots of turns) of
1/2 inch pipe.

There was much discussion with the contractor over the use of 1/2 inch
pipe.  He claimed that the need for 3/4 applied when the only pump for
the zone was the one in the air handler, but since there was another
pump built into the boiler, the two were enough to do the job.  After
extensive discussion he replaced all the pipe with 3/4 and removed the
pump from the air handler, and replaced it with a larger one in the
basement.

This made a noticeable difference in the temperature of the air coming out
of the upstairs vents.  The boiler cycles also lengthened.  And the upstairs
got warm!  So warm the thermostat turned the zone pump off for the first
time and... the boiler went crazy.

So, as it stands now, the system appears to be working when both zones are
running.  The pressure gauge is steady.  The pipes don't move or make noise.
The temperature climbs slowly to the high limit (170 degrees) and the burner
cuts off at that point.  The only thing funny is the burner does not cut
on until the temperature as dropped quite a bit past the low limit.

The trouble comes when one zone pump stops.  As soon as that happens, the
pressure gauge starts twitching, the pipes start shaking and banging, and the
boiler temperature climbs rapidly up past the high limit, sometimes as high
as 235, and the safety relief opens up.

At the moment, I'm contributing to global warming, I've got the thermostat
set at 90 degrees and windows cracked on the 2nd floor so both zones stay
running.  Needless to say, I'd like to get this problem fixed pronto, before 
my gas bill goes hits four digits.

When this was brought to the attention of the heating contractor, he said
he knew it was doing this.  That prompted my first note.  I know steam heating
systems do boil water and bang around a lot, but I'd like to know that hot 
water systems can take this abuse before leaving it run like this.  I'm afraid
I'll crack the boiler, or a pipe, before this guy gets around to fixing it.

The contractor is bringing the rep from the boiler company over to look at
it.  He called the factory, and may have cleared up one issue.  He said
the factory told him the controls on the boiler aren't low high limits.
The one he and I thought was for the low limit is supposed to be set at
what you want the average boiler temperature to be.  The other one is not
the high limit, but a safety cutoff that should be set at 220 degrees.
That seems a bit high to me.  Anyone heard of this kind of control system
before?

The contractor adjusted the controls yesterday, but I can't tell you how
well the system was doing, as I was a bit distracted.  I went to the site 
after work and as I descended the basement stairs I smelled something burning.  
The whole basement stinked, but no smoke was evident.  The boiler has a large 
(7") metal pipe to bring in outside air for combustion, and a small exhaust 
pipe that goes to a power vent that outputs the exhaust out the side of the
building.  The boiler burner was on, and so was the power vent.  Well the 
input air pipe was HOT!  Since it is single wall construction, it was roasting 
the insulation, plastic plumbing pipes, framing, and other stuff that was in 
contact with it.  I went outside and just about as much exhaust was coming out
the input as was being blown out the power vent!!!  The boiler operating at
235 doesn't seem like such a big problem anymore...

On the question about what the system will do when no call is made for heat,
well it hasn't been able to get the first floor up to temperature yet, so I
don't know for sure what it will do.  My guess is the boiler will explode.
The contractor said that the boiler will maintain its temperature.  Since
the hot water is in a separate storage tank, it seems to me that it could
let the boiler temperature drop.  I was told it could be rigged this way,
but that it required a more sophisticated control system and would be an
extra cost upgrade.  At this point I'd like to see them get the 
unsophisticated system to work.  Is letting the temperature drop an unusual
setup?

After finding exhaust coming out the intact, you can be sure that before I 
move into this place, I will have some other heating professional inspect
this system...

Well I'm off to see if there is a house on my site, or a pile of ashes...

    Greg

    By your description I assume the first floor zone still has
    two pumps (main and in heater) and 1/2 pipe. I have 4 guesses.
    At least you might be able to ask these questions when you get someone
    that knows what they are doing.
    
    1) The controller/zones are wired wrong.
    
    2) I have one of these heaters like your talking about and had trouble with
       mine also. But not like this. My problem was getting it primed.
       Mine might not be be as big as yours. But I think the reason why
       they have pumps is to tap off the main (not to help the main loop
       move faster). This way each heater can control it's temp buy just
       shutting its own pump off. And only when all pumps are off the main
       loop shuts down. I think these pumps should not be in line. It might
       be okay if there was a single line and the pumps are the same size.
       
    3) Maybe the pump on the first floor is running backwards but is being
       overpowered by the main pump.
    
    4) I have no Idea what control you have but different controls have
       histerisis (spelling?) and some are adjustable (to prevent short
       cycles or oscilating). It sounds like you might have the wrong
       controls trying to perform this function.
    
    Tell the builder your sending him your gas bills until it's fixed.
    
    Gook luck, don't forget to tell us what happened.

    I reread .26, Mine is a FHW to FHA room heater and yours a FHW to FHA
    floor system (much bigger I'm sure). So a lot of what I said might not
    apply.

      
I recently bought a house with forced hot water heat and radiators.  I'm 
having a problem and am really unfamiliar with this type of system so I'm 
looking for some advice.
      
I'm getting a constant drip from what I would guess to be the pressure relief
valve from the boiler (see picture below).  I don't believe that this is
because the  pressure is too high although I haven't been able to closely 
monitor the problem yet.  Any clues as to what's going on?  Is is just a bad 
valve that needs replacing?  Could it be a symptom of anything serious?
      
      
      	------------------
        |                |
        |                |--O\  <----- valve with lever handle
        |                |  |              
        |   Boiler       |  |              
        |                |  |   <----- pipe
        |                |  |
        |                |  |
        |                |  o   <----- drip
        |                |
      	------------------ oooo <----- puddle (if I don't replace the bucket)
      
      
On glancing at a book at the bookstore, it said something about opening 
up the valve to drain off some water from the boiler when it drips like 
this.  I tried that but it only seemed to make the drip more steady.
      
Any advice is welcome.  Thanks.
      
Walker

    >...bad valve that just needs replacing?
    
    Quite possibly. Sometimes just opening the valve and letting a goodly
    amount of water flush thru will cause it to stop dripping.
    
    >... or something more serious?
    
    Possible, but I'd verify/replace the valve first. Not expensive, $10.
    
    Edd

There should be a pressure gauge somewhere on the boiler.  When it's dripping,
compare the gauge's reading with the valve's rated pressure.  If the reading
is lower, the valve is bad.  Of course, there may be something else wrong,
like a bad expansion tank.

    These boiler relief valves tend to go after 2 or 3 years if you have
    acidic water or very hard water.  The acid eats away at the rubber
    gasket and calcium build ups sometimes prevents the valve from closing
    all the way hence the drip.  It usually doesn't have anything to do
    with the pressure being wrong if it's dripping.
    
    Note that the tag on it says "To be replaced by a licensed contractor
    only".  They sell them at Somerville Lumber but they are locked up in
    a glass case.  You want to get the 30 psi ones, not the 120 psi ones
    used for hot water heaters.  Home Depot, Grossmans and HQ do not carry
    these.
    
    To replace them, you must drain your entire system.
    
    -al

A leaky boiler feed regulator can also cause the overpressure valve to leak. 
The feed water doesn't shut off all the way, and the overpressure valve is
letting it out, doing its job.  The boiler feed regulators fail fairly often.

Find out what the problem is.  Read the pressure on the pressure gauge.  If
it's close to 30 psi (or whatever the rating is on the tag on the overpressure
valve is) or more while the valve is dripping, the valve is OK, and the problem
is the boiler feed or expansion tank.  If the pressure is normal or low, the
overpressure valve is either dirty or bad.  If it's just a bit of dirt,
activating the lever may flush it away, cost $0.  Careful if you do this, you
can get scalded, that water is hot!

-Mike

	RE .3
        
>    To replace them, you must drain your entire system.
    
    Maybe not.  I had to replace mine, leaking just like .0, but I have
    two gate valves on my system so that I can replace this valve 
    as well as the circ pump without having to drain the entire system.
    Check it out, and see if there are shutoff valves on either side of the
    boiler. you may save yourself some extra work.
    
    Ken

Thanks to everyone for all of the very useful information so far.  I have 
activated the lever a couple of time and this doesn't seem to help at all 
so I guess I can rule out a little dirt or something.  Also, I checked the 
pressure last night and the valve is rated at 30 psi and the thing is dripping 
at 20 psi.  It's starting to look like a bad valve.  Now I have to figure 
out how best to replace it.  Thanks to all again.

Walker

P.S. What is the typical pressure that these boilers usually should be
maintaining?  Around 20 psi?

     Do you have tankless hot water?  If so, if you close the valve 
between the hot water out and the rest of the house, is there a hissing 
sound?  If so, does the hissing stop when you close the cold water inlet 
to the tankless?  If so, you have a pinhole leak in the tankless unit.

    re .5
    
    I trust that the valves are arranged so that you can't isolate the
    boiler from the safety valve. Otherwise things could get interesting if
    you leave the valves shut !
    
    Andrew
    [End of buffer]
    
    
                                        

re: .6

P.S. What is the typical pressure that these boilers usually should be
maintaining?  Around 20 psi?


It depends on how high you need to lift the water.  A ranch house needs very
little pressure, a three story needs more and its Physics and somebody here
more clever than myself can give you the equation.

-Bob

    RE .8
    
    You got that right.  The valves are set up on the input to the pump, and
    the output from the boiler.
    
    -->valve-->pump-->boiler---+-->valve-->
                               |
                               V
                             safety 
                              valve
    
    That was you can work on the boiler or pump without having to drain
    the entire system.  At least they did one thing right, I won't go 
    into some of the other plumbing features!
    
    Ken

    A good indication of what the boiler pressure should be when the boiler
    is cold (this is assuming we're discussing the heat part only, and not
    a tankless hot water heater), is to look at the value on the automatic
    feeder valve. If the boiler is cold (look at temp guage), the pressure
    should be around that value.
    
    Eric

    Interesting discussion:
    	An experience I had was the same but with a boiler with an internal
    coil for domestic hot water. (a tankless heater). The coils inside the 
    boiler had detiorated to an extent that the domestic water pressure of
    about 60lbs was slowely being allowed into the boiler. The symtoms are
    the same you had since the leak was a couple of pin holes in the heat
    exchanger tubing. Took almost a year to discover what was wrong because
    we kept replacing parts and testing different ideas.
    
    	We now have an external gas hot water heater and the leaking has
    stopped since the boiler internal coils have been removed.

    Time to start a new topic here.
    
    We're getting a house built and I've just noticed that the furnace vent
    runs straight to the basement wall and out. Now, other than the problem
    of having a vent 4-5 off the ground and making that part of the cellar
    unusable, I was wondering if the exhaust gases from the furnace will
    present a problem. Sure, in the winter time with all of the windows
    closed it shouldn't be a problem, but in the summer, we still need
    hot water.  It's a gas furnace fueled by propane.  I'm still wondering
    why they didn't vent it up the chimney flue..
    
    SHould I be concerned here (other than the inconvenient venting route)?
    
    Thanks,
    Gary
    

    Sounds like a high-efficiency unit; the exhaust gas temperature
    is quite low (maybe 100 degree Fahrenheit) compared to "regular"
    furnaces.  They frequently vent the exhaust through PVC pipe to
    the outside of the house (and often have a combustion air vent
    to supply air running alongside).  I would EXPECT such a furnace
    to have very little products of incomplete combustion in the
    exhaust, but you have an interesting question there.

I've got such a furnace, natural gas fired.  It's a power vented unit, and
was installed because of the idiotic manner in which the vent for the original
furnace was done; it went through the foundation wall into a 4-6 inch pipe
which was buried underground, snaked around the chimney, and entered the
chimney underground.  Lousy draw and it caused no end of condensation
problems.  (I'm not even sure it was legal when the house was built in
1966, but who knows...)

Anyway, the power vent runs along the joists, so it doesn't interfere with
use of that area.  I've had it two and a half years now, and have noticed
no problems with combustion gasses.

			Steve

    I am looking for information on two brands of furnaces.  These are FHA
    furnaces that we have received very different quotes on.  One is a
    Janitrol 75000 BTU and the other is a Comfortmaker 80000 BTU.  If you
    have any information on either of these two brands, it would be much
    appreciated.  We, at this point, are not sure if the $500 difference in
    installation quotes is due to labor charges or the quality of the
    furnace and since the quotes come from two different companies, each is
    biased towards the urnace they recommend.
    
    Also open to any other suggestions on good FHA furnace brands at 80%
    efficiency and approximately 80000 BTUs.  (Trying to heat 1200 square
    feet)
    
    Thanks
    Julie

    One of the burner on my gas stove lately development a problem. It is an 
    older model that uses pilot light to ignit the burner. The pilot light is 
    OK, but the burner doesn't burn ( automatically ) when I turn on the
    dial. I had to ignit the burner using a match. It appears that the gas
    could not reach the pilot light and therefore the burner doesn't lit. 
    On a good working burner, I could see small flame ( gas ) shooting toward 
    the pilot light causing the burner burn. My wife tried using a thin
    razor blade to clear the small gap where gas shoots to the pilot light.
    That didn't help. Any suggestion to fix the problem ?
    

    There should be some type of manifold that conducts the gas towards the
    pilot flame. Make sure this route is unobstructed.
    
    Sometimes just letting the burner burn for awhile on my gas stove will
    cure this problem Was it an immediate failure, or did it become 
    increasingly "slow" to light?
    
    Edd

                 Electronic vs Manual Ignition ???
    
    For a gas boiler, do you recommend an electronic or manual 
    ignition?   That decision makes a very minor difference in 
    the cost of the actual boiler.  But what about
       - efficiency of running (cost of heating bills)
       - liklihood of repair
       - cost of repair
    Supposedly electronic ignitions have improved a lot over the 
    years.  But plumbers are providing such contradictory 
    recommendations.
    
    Thanks.
    Gale
    
    (Any other considerations ??? )
    

    
    Relative safety?  The safety system on a pilot ignition is pretty
    simple.  Not much to go wrong.
    
    C

We've got an electronic ignition on our gas boiler.  We've had no problems
in the four winters we've had it.  Our plumber said they're very reliable.

I've been told that if your basement is prone to high humidity in the summer
then a pilot burning will keep your furnace dryer and freer from corrosion.
In many areas, its no longer an option, code requires all to electric ignition.
Was that for safety or conservation?  I was told both.

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Vic [Moderator]

      I'm entertaining quotes for converting from electric to oil FHW.
      I've been given choices of boilers that sort into two groups, 
      ones with rubber seals; Weil-McClain and H.B. Smith, and ones
      with sleeves; Peerless, and Utica. The heating guy advises not
      to go with the rubber section seals. 

      Has anyone had problems with rubber seal boilers? Of these brands,
      does any one really stand out in your mind?

      The second problem pertains to the size, specifically, the number
      of sections contained in the boiler. I've been give a quote that,
      depending on brand, allows for a 3 or 4 section boiler, 83-86% eff,
      and from 110-150,000 BTU. Several people tell me a 5 section boiler
      is a must otherwise I'm asking for trouble.
      
      Is there a "correct" number of sections for easier maint and reliability?
    

Another brand to consider is Burnham.  We have one and it works fine.

I don't think the number of sections is as critical as sizing the system
to handle the current square footage of the house (allowing for ceiling
height), plus some reasonable factor above.  This allows the furnace
to not be working at maximum capacity and also allows for adding on later
if you ever decide you would like to.

What kind of system are you using - forced hot water or steam?  What kind
of fuel - oil or gas?

The other major area is to be sure it is installed properly.  An incorrect
installation will cause you great difficulty in the future.  Ours had
been installed by the gas company and was done wrong in several key areas.
When it died because of a faulty low-water shutoff, we went to a qualified
installer and had it done right.  We have a steam furnace and I can't 
complain.

Ed..

    Have you checked all the entries in 1111.47 - heating - converting, 
and 1111.48-56 taht discusses all other aspects of different heating 
systems? I haven't got time to research your question for you and point you 
to various notes, but I believe this has been discussed to death in this 
file previously. Please feel free to assure me you have read them all and 
none pertained to your questions.

    	Vic, Moderator

    
    	It appears I will chose the Utica boiler, no rubber, and upgrade
    	to a 5 section for only $120 in additional cost. That puts me at
    	a 151,000 to 175,000 BTU machine, depending on nozzle adjustments,
        for 1660 sq ft with the possible expansion of a garage to 2500'.
    
    	The conversion will include using the tankless to store water
    	in my (former) electric hot water tank and will circulate thru
    	the tankless when reheating is necessary. It's an idea I saw in
    	this file and I like it more every time I think about disconnecting
    	another electric company money-maker. 
    
    	The Utica is an oil fired, FHW model that is 86% eff. I'll still
    	be using a power venter but I should think it would not be to 
    	dirty once vented. Has anyone vented a boiler with this eff rating?
    
    	Bob

    re: .3
    151,000 to 175,000 BTU for 1660 square feet?!  If you have any
    insulation at all, that is probably nearly twice as big as you
    need.  I have an old rambling ca. 1806-1915-1968 house that, until
    recently, you could see light through cracks in the living room
    wall.  The boiler is rated around 100,000 BTU, if I recall, and
    it was adequate even with no insulation in several rooms.  At any
    rate, my burner nozzle is 1.0 gph.
    
    It's much better to get a boiler that is truly sized for your
    needs.  Running a large boiler 25% of the time is less efficient
    than running a smaller boiler 90% of the time.  In theory, you want
    your boiler to run 100% of the time on the coldest possible day...
    in practice, of course, you figure in a little extra, but not 100%
    worth.  
    

    RE: .3 and .4
    
    Is that the maximum rating of the boiler or the rating you have picked?
    I would quesstamate that you would need around 90,000.
    
    The amount of heat into the boiler is set by the nozzle size of the
    oil burner.
    
    Marc H.

    re:.4
    My house sits on top of a hill, exposed to 3 sides including north.
    It's 2x4 construction, electric heat and I'd swear there wasn't
    any insulation if I didn't look for myself. The North exposed side
    of the house gets wind-whipped in winter and the electric heat could
    not even keep my daughter's room above 60 going full bore. The
    expansion area is also fully exposed to the north with nothing in view
    but the next hill 3 miles away to protect it. 
    
    As I recall, this burner is 1.25 gph but could be adjusted downward.
    Not sure how far but I'll find that out next time I speak with the 
    installer. The Utica recommended for my home was the 4 section boiler
    just below the model I've chosen.
    
    Another factor in the rating was I have little room for baseboard. 
    Again, that's the contractor's call but I won't have full wall-wall
    accessabilty.

    I'm converting my heating system from electric to FHW by oil. 
    Ditto for the hot water.  The AMTROL BOILERMATE has been 
    recommended to us.  My concern is will a 41 gallon boilermate be 
    sufficient to provide enough hot water for a family of 6?  That's 
    a lot of showers, baths and LAUNDRY.

    I was surprised to find out that Amtrol doesn't offer 60 or 80 
    gallons systems.  Is their recovery rate so fast that additional 
    storage is unnecessary?

    Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.

    Phil

>    I'm converting my heating system from electric to FHW by oil. 

>    Ditto for the hot water.  The AMTROL BOILERMATE has been 
>    recommended to us.  My concern is will a 41 gallon boilermate be 

That's what we had done about 1 yeay ago and we love it. I too was 
concered going from an 80 gal electric to a 41 gallon Boiler Mate, but 
it has not been a problem. It does have a decent recovery rate.

You cannot take three back-to-back hot showers but other than that, it
is totally adequate for normal family usage. We are a family of 2
adults, 1 teen and 1 child. Three showers in the morning, dishwasher,
loads of laundry, etc. Three showers spread out over a 1 hour period 
seems to be just fine. You just can't take 3 10 minute showers in a 
half hour period.

I works out just fine for us!

Charly

    
    	I'm about to convert also and we've chosen a different route.
    	The tankless heater will be directed to my 80 gal electric
    	tank (disconnected from Ma Elec) and will be used as a holding
    	tank. A temp sensor will be used to monitor when a circ pump
    	will reheat the water. This will allow a more even temp then
    	a tankless gives me, more hot water (and as much as I have now),
    	and cuts down on the cost by quite a few $$$. 
    
    	I looked at the other system, but the above method saved money
    	and seemed reasonable. I'll know for sure when I get it done!
    
    	Bob

>    	I'm about to convert also and we've chosen a different route.
>    	The tankless heater will be directed to my 80 gal electric 

We also explored that option. Both using our old Electric tank and a
special one that they had for that purpose. The advantages of the
Amtrol system (seperate heating zone) was the the Hi-Temp setting
could be turned down on the boiler so in the summer, the boiler would
not always be trying to keep the boiler temp up, in case you wanted
hot water. 

Other pluses in my mind were:

1. I've hear a lot of problems of the tankless coil in the boiler
   clogging up with setiment. You're always running fresh water thru the
   coil to heat it and the sediment tends to collect over time. 

2. My old Water Heater was 10 years old and was a leak waiting to 
   happend in my mind.

3. The AMTROL tank came with a Life Time (Non Pro-Rated) garranty!
   

    Thanks for your feedback!  I'd like to hear more, if anyone has 
    anything to add.   My hesitation in getting an Amtrol system is 
    its size. 

    -Phil

>                  -< too bad they don't come in bigger sizes >-
>    anything to add.   My hesitation in getting an Amtrol system is 
>    its size. 

The size in NOT a problem. We went from an 80 gal. Electric to a 41
gal. Amtrol system and have NEVER been disapointed. As I said before, 
you can't take a 30 minute shower, but even 80 gallons of "electric" 
hot water would be used up in about that time. The recovery rate of 
the Amtrol system is MUCH quicker than electric. Half the water plus 
it's probably has more heating capacity, but I don't know that for 
sure.

The only thing that we miss is about $40 - $50 off of the monthly 
electric bill!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

Thanks for all your feedback.

re size:  remember this guy is factoring possible expansion to 2500 sq ft.  
just the same i think i figured about 150K btu for roughly the same size and 
that included heeating the garage if desired.  if the system were overtaxed i 
would just not desire to work in the garage that day.

re boiler:  what is this utica you mentioned?  it is 86% efficient and is 
power vented?  that means out a non-chimney?  please confirm, that's what i
want. 

-craig

I've also got a 40-gallon Amtrol Boilermate, installed about a year ago.
No problems, no lack of hot water and no increase in fuel bill.  It's funny-
looking, but it works.  And I'm glad to know that it's unlikely to leak, and
if it ever does, it's covered under the lifetime warranty.

				Steve

    The Utica Starfire III is a cast iron oil-fired, wet base boiler
    system made in Utica, New York. Their phone number is 1-315-797-1310.
    The model I'm ordering is the 5125; 5 section, 1.25 GPH. The heating
    capacity is rated at 151,000 but the water MBH is 131,000. And,
    it's AFUE rating is 86%. The boiler holds 16.5 Gallons. 
    
    I'm having it power vented out the side of the house. There will be
    no chimney. Some quotes for 86% boilers said they didn't need power
    venting, just go right out the side. I tend to believe that only of
    the 96% gas burners I looked at. The Utica mentions it can be vented.
    
    The heating guy I'm working with gave me info on many boilers. I 
    chose this one because of price/perf. There are other good brands
    out there but 86% was as high as they went. Though I'm not positive
    of the units cost exactly, I think it's around $1,500-$1,600.
    
    The Weil-McLain 4 section has the same specs as above, was 84% eff, 
    and would cost more. It specifies a chimney but I guess it could be
    vented.

    BTW, why didn't you consider a Burnham?  I'm only asking because 
    that is the one I may go with.

    -Phil

    
    For what it's worth.... We have a UTICA starfire series FHW boiler
    with tankless hot water and a beckett AFG series burner with
    an 0.85 GPH nozzle.  Our friends have a burnham boiler (same
    beckett AFG/FHW/tankless set up) with a similar BTU rating as 
    ours.  We have noticed that their boiler is louder than ours, 
    and they complain that their hot water is not as plentiful as 
    ours. (I know - it could be adjustments for the hot water).  
    Since the installations are almost identical, I think the noise
    comparison is valid.
    
    My 2 cents :^)
    
         Jim
    

>    an 0.85 GPH nozzle.  Our friends have a burnham boiler (same
>    beckett AFG/FHW/tankless set up) with a similar BTU rating as 
>    ours.  We have noticed that their boiler is louder than ours, 

    Why is there difference in noise if they're the same burner.

    -Phil    

    >> Why is there difference in noise if they're the same burner.
    
    Beats me, but I suspect our UTICA boiler has more sound deadening
    insulation or is constructed in such a way as to dampen the
    combustion noise more thoroughly.  The burner itself is actually
    fairly quiet (ie- the oil pump and blower don't make much noise).
    
    We also have the same circulator pumps so that's not a factor.
    
           Jim D.

re Note 2672.21 by GRIND::CBUSKY:

> The size in NOT a problem. We went from an 80 gal. Electric to a 41
> gal. Amtrol system and have NEVER been disapointed. As I said before, 
> you can't take a 30 minute shower, 

        I have the 40-gal Amtrol and we CAN take 30 minute showers --
        I have never been able to run out since installing it.

        (Well, once we ran out of oil. :-)

        We do have restrictive shower heads, but they're not
        dramatically restrictive.  (Our water pressure tends to be
        set rather low -- about 40 psi -- that may limit the flow as
        well.)

        (We previously had the misery of a "tankless" heater.)

        Bob

    
      I'm getting ready to buy a FHW gas furnace and I'm looking for
    recommendations as to where to buy it within a reasonable drive (and/or
    delivery) of southern NH?
    
    				Kenny

re Note 4787.0 by ASDG::WATSON:

>       Has anyone had problems with rubber seal boilers? Of these brands,
>       does any one really stand out in your mind?
  
        My heating contractor recently told me that my boiler, a
        Weil-McLain, should not be turned off even during summer
        absences (e.g., vacation) because when it cools down the
        seals leak a bit and let water into the combustion chamber. 
        This water then makes steam when the unit is turned on again.

        (After my last week away there was considerable visible
        emission from the chimney when the unit was first turned on
        -- grayish, like steam.)

        I must admit that I am reluctant to let the boiler run when
        I'm away for a week just to keep it warm (although,
        obviously, I let it run this long when I'm gone during the
        winter).

        Has anybody here heard the same or conflicting advice?

        Bob

     It makes a little sense that you could get some seepage when the
    boiler is turned off, though I think it would have to be close to
    leaking anyway.
    
      Boilers with a lot of sections are held together by bolts. Of course
    when metal cools it contracts. It *could* contract enough to allow
    leaks. Of course, ALL of the old style radiators were built this way
    and they ALWAYS were heated and allowed to thoroughly cool, usually
    several times a day. Not only that, but the bolts that hold the
    sections together will contract too. 
    
      My guess is that any boiler that leaks or seeps water when it cools
    either is close to having a real (all the time) leak or is not made as
    well as others or is marginally defective.
    
      As far as steamy-ish smoke when you firts start the boiler. Is it
    gas? Gas gives off lots of water when it burns. And even if it is oil,
    a cold chimney and damp cellar (Supply air comes from the cellar) could 
    easily account for the steam.
    
    				Kenny

    RE: .13
    
    I've heard both sides of the argument.....When able, I've turned
    off my oil burner when ever possible.
    
    Hasn't hurt at all. Now, if the seals are loose at room temp., you
    will have some leaking...but...that's a problem that can be fixed.
    
    Marc H.

    I've been told the same thing about my Burnham. The contracting and
    expansion could cause the seals to have a shorter life. I used to shut
    the sys down when on vacation, now I leave it on, but turn the temp 
    down to 80-100 deg. So I am not maintaning 150 deg water.  

re: -.1 
	After shopping and pricing extensively all over southern NH, I got my
best price from the folks at Capitol Plumbing in Nashua.  They beat Sommerville
Lumber and Masi who are both big into heating systems.  I did dicker with them
and went to them with my best price and told them what they had to sell it for
to make the sale and it worked. That was two years ago so probably a worthless
reference point today, but they're worth a visit once you know what you want
and what you'd like to pay.

-Bob

    The house we purchased, a couple years ago, also has an Amtrol Hot
    water maker.  I'd like for it to last, and was just wondering what kind
    of maintainance you'd suggest?
    
    Specifically, since we have well water, I'd like to drain it, flush it
    out and then refill, but I'm not sure what steps I should take to do
    this....
    
    There is a drain plug that I could remove, after turning of the hot and
    cold sides, but then if(after draining) I allow the cold to go on...
    where does the pressure release?  I thought the pressure release valve
    is precautionary for very high pressure.
    
    
    Thanks
    
    
    	John

	Last night I woke up about 4:00 and the house was at 80 degrees.  I have
a digital thermstat, Magic-Stat, I believe. and the house should have been about 
54 degrees.  I've had the thermostat for about 4 years and this is maybe the 
third time this has happened.  Sometimes it happens during the day and once 
happened while I was at work.  Usually it occurs once or twice during the heating
season.  Anyone know why this happens or if there is something I can do to fix
it?  Since it's electronic I don't expect there to be a whole lot I can do - 
except buy another one but I thought I'd ask.

Thanks,

George

I had almost this same thing happen to me just last week, but with a
different brand (Sears "Weekender").  The thermostat went into its default
program which is 71 degrees - no thermostat in my house ever goes above 64
and this one generally stays at 50!  It's not supposed to do this unless the
power fails and the batteries die too.  But what I found was that two of the
three batteries I had in there were old and one was leaking; it had formed
some corrosion on the contact.  Even though the "battery low" indicator
didn't come on and the light (which is battery-only-powered) worked, I
think the corroded contact caused problems for the thermostat and it switched
to the default mode.

I took out the old batteries, cleaned the contacts and put in fresh ones and
it's been fine since.

Of course, if your thermostat doesn't have battery backup, this will be
irrelevant to you.

				Steve

Sometimes the problem is not the thermostat itself, but a sticking gas valve.
The fan will continue to run as the burner continues to run ... quite
a risky situation ... as the limit switches can't correct the problem.

Stuart

re >    - no thermostat in my house ever goes above 64

	Brrrrrrr!!!  8^)  <<<(Teeth chattering)

I hate my own parents house - they keep it at 75.  

			Steve

	Anyone know of the best place(s) to buy a power-vented gas fired
	boiler?  Alot of the places I called (Nashua, NH Yellow Pages)
	won't even sell to a non-contractor (ie. home owner) directly.

	The ones that I've found so far the will are:

Home Depot (Nashua, NH)
	Slant/Fin Victory series of cast-iron power vent gas boiler
	V-90 (DOE Cap.: 77,000btuh, Net output: 65,450)  $1,029

Goule Supplies (Manchester, NH)
	Wallman
	(Net output: 71,000) $1,435

Colonial Supplies
	Burman
	(Net output: 69,000) $1,322

	Neither Somerville or Home Quarters carries power-vented units.

	So far the Slant/Fin is the most economical, and it looks like
	from their flyer that it has some quality (they mention metal
	push nipples instead of rubber/plastic gaskets), though I know
	nothing about any of the three models above.

	Also has anyone installed one of these before?  If I go this
	route I'm planning on paying someone to do the gas hookup, but
	plan on installing the vent/hood myself, along with the
	electrical, and moving one of the zones from my current unit
	to this new unit (I have a 2-family off one boiler now, and
	the heat is the only utility not seperated).  This is something
	a DIYer can do, or am I getting in over my head?

    I just moved into a house that's about 35 years old.  It has a furnace
    that was converted from oil to gas.  It seems to work pretty well, but
    the warmest room in the house is the basement, where the furnace is! 
    
    There is baseboard heating in the basement, so I can't tell if the heat
    in that room is coming from the furnace or the baseboard.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can stop heating my
    basement and send the warm air up to the rest of the house? 
    
    Thanks ****andrea****

I would suggest calling in a competent heating contractor and having them
look at it.  If your furnace is anything like the converted-from-oil unit
that was in our house when we bought it, the payback from replacing it with
a modern unit is a few months.  We were going through 100cf of gas per day.

			Steve

    Can anyone advise me on the need for a flow control valve 
    in newly-installed gas boiler?
    The story is...
    
    Last week a plumber installed a gas boiler in my home. The 
    boiler replaces an ancient oil boiler and feeds into a forced 
    hot water radiator system.
    
    A Plumbing and Gas inspector from the town came out to check 
    the job. He pointed out that the plumber didn't install a flow 
    control valve. My understanding is that this valve prevents hot 
    water circulating by gravity AFTER the thermostat has shut off 
    the boiler. The inspector said this should be a standard part 
    of the boiler installation job and implied I should ask the 
    plumber to retrofit the part.
    
    Of course the plumber has a different story. He says that my 
    home, which has only one zone, does not need a flow control 
    valve. He considers it beneficial to have the hot water continue 
    to circulate by gravity after the pump has shut off.  In his 
    words "why waste all that hot water you've just heated up?"
    
    Which of these viewpoints makes more sense?  If I should have 
    the valve installed, I'ld appreciate your thoughts on why, as 
    I'll have to work on convincing the plumber to do so.
    
    Thanks,
    Maria
    

Not all systems are alike, so one can't say for certain.  When we moved into
our house almost 8 years ago, the flow control valve for the boiler was
put in the wrong way, or it wasn't the correct one, or whatever.  Basically
it didn't work as it was supposed to.  The problem was, that we had a tankless
hot water heater, ie, the boiler, which supplied all our hot water too.
Thus the boiler often goes on when there is no direct need for heating the
living space, as it has to keep the resevoir of hot water at a certain temp.

So, with the flow control valve in wrong, whenever the boiler fired up for the
purpose of heating water for water usage, rather than supplying heat, it would
also heat up the water that fed the radiators, and this would circulate 
through the system, uncheck by the flow control valve.  It's very interesting
to walk from a cold winter day into a house where the temp is in the
upper 80's and 90's.  We had someone come in and do the flow control 
valve up correctly.  Now we can actually regulate our heat.

PeterT

                     
        In my situation, there is a separate hot-water heater, so the
        comments in .1 don't apply directly.  But in a similar way, the
        effect of not having a control valve is that the radiators heat
        the house 1-3 degrees higher than regulated by the thermostat, due
        to the circulating hot water.
    
        So the question still stands - should I have the plumber 
        install the flow control valve? 
    
        The disadvatages of not having a flow control valve seem to be:
            - I need to set the thermostat lower than the temperature
              I want,to account for extra circulation.
            - If I intall a separate heat zone in the future, I will need
              to pay for the valve then, rather than potentially have the
              plumber do it for free now.
    
        The advantages are:
            - more heat for a specified amount of input energy (if the
              plumber is telling me the full story)
        
        Is there any other information I'm missing here?
    
        Maria

>         Is there any other information I'm missing here?

    Nope, you've summed it up quite nicely!
    
    The plumber is trying to sell you the other way because it's less
    work/cost for him, NONE! 

    Tell him that the inspector and YOU want it done this way, the
    proper way.

    Charly

>     The plumber is trying to sell you the other way because it's less
>     work/cost for him, NONE! 

	.... but guess who that cost is passed on to anyways.  So in effect
	it would cost the homeowner more ....

>     Tell him that the inspector and YOU want it done this way, the
>     proper way.

	The proper way from my experience (which probably differs from
	yours) is that you do *not* need a flow check valve for a single
	zone system (and the author of .1 has a 2-zone system, one zone
	going to the water heater).

	I performend my own new installation of a FHW system, and even
	the install instructions gave no need for a flow-check valve
	(the system was a package system with the controller and circulator
	pump installed ans wired for a single zone installation).  My
	towns applicable building inspector in fact at final inspection
	even took pictures and said he wanted to take pictures to show
	other homeowners how a homeowner should do such a job.

	However .0's town's building codes may still require a flow-check valve
	anyways, just because "the code is the code".  Just like I learned
	the hard way my town doesn't allow the use of bushings in gas piping ...

> >     The plumber is trying to sell you the other way because it's less
> >     work/cost for him, NONE! 
> 
> 	.... but guess who that cost is passed on to anyways.  So in effect
> 	it would cost the homeowner more ....

    What I meant by this was... The job is already done and now the
    homeowner is questioning the lack of a flow check valve. If the
    plumber can convince the homeowner that's it's OK, then he (the
    plumber) avoids having to have to come back and spend several more
    hour$ to shut down the system, drain it, install the valve and
    then get things up and running again. Plus the cost of the valve.

    Charly

	It's remotely possible that the problem isn't being caused
by the lack of the valve, but by the thermostat/boiler-control-box.

	When I've installed thermostats and boilers, the thermostat
(especially the simple round mercury-switch-types) always have a
setting on them that's calibrated in fractions of amps, I think.  
This is just a variable resistor, and the resistor sits just under
the temperature sensor - the bi-metallic strip.   The control box
for the furnace or boiler (where the thermostat wires (2 of 'em)
attach) should list somewhere on the label a current rating for the
thermostat loop.  All this together gives you a time-lag setting
that you can adjust.

	Consider what happens when the heat goes on.  The thermostat
bi-metallic strip cools off, the mercury switch tilts, and the thermostat
has then closed its switch - calling for heat.  The heat source kicks
on (air, water, whatever).  As the heat is being delivered to the room,
the room heats up, and the thermostat starts to move again.  When the
room gets to the correct temperature, the thermostat kicks off the heat;
but you've still got hot air in the ducts, or pipes full of hot water,
and that heat will end up in the room - and you've overshot your temperature
target!  The function of the small heat-producing resistance on the 
thermostat is to locally heat up the thermostat itself, so that it will
think it's at the target temperature a little early, before the room
itself is...so the heat stored in the system won't overheat the room.
The resistance is adjustable so that you can control the heat output
depending on how much current your particular controls run through the
loop.  Yours may be seriously mis-set, or intentionally so...but you 
can certainly check, and you can always set it yourself to control the
overshoot.  I'd see if it's set right first, then try adjusting either
way.  Go slowly and see how it works for a long time at any particular
setting.  One of those high/low recording thermometers might help you
know what you're getting.  The smaller the variation, the more comfortable
most people are...and the more often your system must cycle.  There
are lots and lots of variables involved in any individual house, and I've
never seen two heating systems installed the same way, either.  I would
love to find a reference book that explains all this - how do the 
contractors learn?  (Cynically - some never seem to...)

> 	It's remotely possible that the problem isn't being caused
> by the lack of the valve, but by the thermostat/boiler-control-box.

	Me thinks you are confused (or replied to the wrong note :-).
	.0 does *not* have a heating problem.  .0 only has a building
	inspector problem.

	.1 had a problem (which has long since been corrected), maybe
	that's the note you're replying to?

Even a single zone system will have two thermostats.
One is up in the hoiuse, and controls when the house is calling for heat.
The other is in the boiler and controls when the burner fires to get the
water up to but not beyond heating temperature.
If the system is wired up so that the water in the boiler is KEPT 
at the heating temperature even when the house isn't calling for heat,
then the check valve is necessary to keep the warmed water from leaking
up into the house when it is not being called for.
Most systems that I know of DO keep the boiler water hot so it is
always ready to go when heat is called for.

re: .6:  The circuit described is the "anticipator circuit."  Its job
is to "anticipate" when the house is about to reach its desired temperature
and turn off the call for heat before it would otherwise, avoiding overshoot.

- tom]

...and when your circulator pump fails, or you have a power failure,*
you open the check valve (flow control valve) and heat your house by
convection.

*if you have an ignitionless system, like an old gas burner

- tom]

Re: .8, .9

	Is this a continuation of the apparent rathole started in .6,
	or does this tie in some how with the base note?  Ie. are
	you really trying to say that .0 may actaully require a flow
	check valve if their controller is one of the few smart anticipator
	types?

>	Is this a continuation of the apparent rathole started in .6,
>	or does this tie in some how with the base note?  Ie. are
>	you really trying to say that .0 may actaully require a flow
>	check valve if their controller is one of the few smart anticipator
>	types?

I believe that .6, .8, and .9 are the heart of the matter raised in .0, not
tangents at all.
The plumber's rebuttal to the inspector's comment was that you WANT
the system to keep heating after the thermostat stops calling.
.6 points out that a properly installed and adjusted room thermostat
will include an anticipator that will shut down the circulator
before the room really reaches temperature.  This lets the remaining stored
heat in the system finish the job.  This is partly in support of the
plumber's rebuttal.
In .8, I pointed out that convection will occur because most systems
(as I understand them) work to keep the boiler at temperature
even when the house isn't calling for heat, and the absence of the flow
control valve will cause the house to overheat.  Maybe circulator pumps
have check valves built-in now, but if that were the case, the inspector
should have known or asked that.

- tom]

> will include an anticipator that will shut down the circulator
> before the room really reaches temperature.  This lets the remaining stored
> heat in the system finish the job.  This is partly in support of the

    I believe that the "stored" heat that the anticipator is
    compansating for is the heat in the radiator's that is about to be
    released, not the heat in boiler. 

    Thanks for your help
    
    Maria
    

>                      <<< Note 5737.12 by SHRMSG::BUSKY >>>
>
>> will include an anticipator that will shut down the circulator
>> before the room really reaches temperature.  This lets the remaining stored
>> heat in the system finish the job.  This is partly in support of the
>
>    I believe that the "stored" heat that the anticipator is
>    compansating for is the heat in the radiator's that is about to be
>    released, not the heat in boiler. 

Yes, this is what I meant.  When the circulator shuts down, only the water
already in the radiators should be available to finish the heating job
for that thermostat cycle.

- tom]