Conference 7.286::home_work

    I usually put in a "winterizing kit" in the fall when I close
    the pool. I'm not sure what's in it other than very concentrated
    chlorine. But the water is very clear in the spring when I uncover
    it.

    I would imagine your pool water is probably clear at this point,
    having been filtered and chlorinated for a few days.  
    
    Re: Maintenence
    
    Right now we use HTH and have never once had any problems with it.
    The only problem is it does bleach your liner (and bathing suit)
    over the years and lowers the life of the fingers found in earth 
    filters.  I believe any type of chlorine will do this.
    
    But there is a new product which has come out in the past couple
    of years called Baquascil (sp?)  It comes in liquid form and requires
    pool maintenance every two weeks I believe.  In other words once
    you put it in, you don't have to mess with your pool for two weeks.
    (With the HTH I have to add a cup almost every day)
    
    Also the Baquascil doesn't bleach you liner, but as usual there
    is a catch.  It costs quite a bit more than HTH.  I've been hoping
    that the price would drop a little before I buy it.
    
    During the hotter months you may find that you need to add a bit
    more chlorine.  This is due to the sun and heat.  Be aware of this.
    
    Keeping the PH at the right level is important.  Too high and the
    chlorine doesn't work effectively.  Or is that too low?  One way
    or another it is necessary.  Also when my wife was pregnant her
    doctor strongly recommended that the PH be at the proper level.
    
    The filter system should be monitored (PSI guage) to be sure it
    is running properly.  Backwash when you should, etc.      
    
    You can get drastic and not allow people to wear cutoffs and make
    them wear bathing caps, but then the fun is gone in my opinion.
    Our dog is a regular in our pool.
    
    The main thing is to keep on top of it.  Don't skip a few days 
    (especially if it's in the constant sun) of adding chlorine.  Once
    the water starts turning green it's a bitch to fully clean.  I've
    known people to empty it and try again.
    
    The last thing I do is take the filter apart every winter and give
    it the once over.  I'd rather find any problems then than in July
    or August.
    
    					Steve

    I use HTH and yes it takes a cup a day. I also put a stablize in
    twice a season. It helps keep the clorine in the water. It is also
    what the winterizing kit has in it. 
    
    The best way to keep your maintaince down is to use it. That keeps 
    the water sturred up allowing the filter to do its work. 
    
    I have also found that you can only get two seasons out of the sand 
    in the filter.
    
    If you do get a algi problem you will have to back flush a lot to
    completely get rid of it. It will build up in your filter otherwise.
                                                                        
    
    dave

    Yesterday's Boston Globe (Home and Garden Section) had 3-4 articles
    on pools and maintenance. I don't own a pool but they were interesting
    and full of good info on the subjects in this note.
    

    
    
    I'm getting ready to set up my above ground pool.  I was wondering
    if anyone might have some suggestions for me.  The pool is 18 ft.
    in diam. and 4 ft deep, with a flat bottom.  Any input on the following
    areas will be appreciated:
    
    1) How many volunteers should I recruit?
    
    2) How deep should the washed sand be?
    
    3) Do I really need a piece of plastic between the sand and the
       liner?
    
    4) How long does it take to fill-up using your own water supply
       at night only?  Brining it in is just too expensive!!!
                     
    Rookie Pool Owner in VT.,
    
    Shane
    

	You left one real important question out:

	HOW MUCH BEER SHOULD I BUY BEFORE THE VOLUNTEERS ARRIVE????

    Notes 1154, 1019, 203, 199 and 183 already discuss pools.  I think
    several of your questions may already be discussed.
    

	
	re. 4

	Was there anything in there about pool repair?  My pool liner 
	developed a split seam one day this spring.  I know it was this 
	spring because I looked under the cover and the pool was full of 
	ice.  Two weeks and some warm weather later, it was empty.  We 
	now have a path 12 feet by 50 feet of dead grass leading downhill 
	from the pool.    Naturally, I was bummed.  
	
	Any ideas on why it split and how to fix it?  The split is about
	10 inches long.

	John...

    For all you pool owners out there!
    
    How much work is involved in setting up an above ground pool?
    
    This is an oval shaped one.  Once it is set up how much work
    
    is it to maintain it?  Anyone who can pass along any tips it
    
    will be greatly appreciated.
    
    						Thanks,
    
    						John

    JOHN
    
    Most of the work in setting up an above ground pool is in leveling
    the ground. the pool should be no more than two inches of from any
    two points. It is even worth while to take extra time and make sure
    the ground is almost perfectly level for the whole pool . You will
    be glad in the long run. A level pool has very little stress on
    the sides.
    
    As far as maintenance - that depends where the pool is . If the
    pool is under trees you will have considerable more work because
    of leaves and twigs. If the pool is in the open there is relativley
    little work other than checking the chemicals,skimming, and turning
    on the filter for several hours a day.
    
    Any more questions just let me know
    
    	Good luck     
    
    	Bob
    

    I did a round one and it wasn't too bad. Very time consuming and
    "labor intensive!" I think an oval one would be troublesome. They
    usually have lots of extra supports for the walls.
    
    Maintenance on the pool is a pain at the beginning and end of the
    season. You will learn a few things about chemicals, that's for
    sure.
    
    Tip: add a good algacide while you are filling to pool to avoid
    a green algal bloom in the water.
    
    Marty

    From someone who learned the hard way:
    
    - pools are very sensitive - maintaining chemical balance is a 
      challenge - buy a good test kit (more below) and try to stay ahead
      of the problems
    
    - invest in a good filter - junk filters will only waste chemicals
      DE filters are the best, sand is ok and cartridge is junk.  run
      the filter long enough to "turn" the entire pool once/day

    - use DPD to test for chlorine - OTO does not test for free chorine,
      which is what kills bacteria.  stabilize your pool (cyanuric acid),
      this will *significantly* reduce your chlorine usage.  use stabilized
      chlorine too.  i've had good luck with slow release tablets and
      bad results with HTH (clouds the water).  
    
    - your test kit should test for, at least, chlorine, pH, total
      alkalinity (this buffers your pool from drastic pH changes and
      helps with the acid rain problem).  you may want to invest in
      a cynanuric acid test.  use your local pool place, all test for
      free (they want you to feel guilty and buy lots of chemicals!).
    
    - watch for ants that want to use the cool, loose, moist sand under
      your pool as a summer retreat.  i frequently put chemical deterrents
      around the pool to convince them otherwise. 

    - after exhaustion sets in, jump in and enjoy!

    
    I just did a round pool two weekends ago.  
    
    Use a transit to level the padio blocks, and make sure you get
    a roller to pack the sand.
    
    Becarefull when you are putting on the top rail.  We found that
    we had to do allot of tugging and pulling to get the last one 
    lined up.  Make sure you have at least 3 good strong folks around
    when your putting up that last rail.
    
    Make sure you get you pump and filter hooked up and ready to go
    before you get the pool filled all the way, you don't want the 
    water to sit.
    
    It's hard work, but that first hot day after work makes it worth
    the effort.
    
    Shane
    

    I was told that there is a substance that you can spray on the sand
    to make it "sticky".  Handy when rolling and getting the curve right
    where the side meets the bottom.
    
    C

    It sounds like I'm in for some fun!  The pool is set up right now...in
    someone elses yard.  They are giving me the pool.  I checked it
    out last night and it looks like its in real good shape.  The name
    brand is DoughBoy.  Anyone no where I can get an address?  There
    doesn't appear to be any rust on it but I'd like to see if I can
    order a new hardware package.  Then I won't have to worry about
    destroying the nuts and bolts when I'm taking this thing apart.
    The people who own it are giving me everything needed except the
    filter...they just gave it away a week ago.  How much will a filter
    cost?  The pool looks like its 12 or 14 by 24 feet.  Its oval. 
    I have the space for it but I'm real worried about setting it up.
    How much does the pump have on the electric bill?  
    I can't believe I'm even going to attempt this but a women who works
    with my wife offered it to her....and of course she had to mention
    at the supper table in front of our three children that we could
    have a pool for FREE.  Needless to say the kids eyes are still hanging
    out of there heads!!  So if you read in the paper that a man drowns
    wife in empty pool....you'll have the inside scoop!!
    I appreciate the info.  Just keep it coming.  Anything at all will
    be helpful.  I don't have a clue about pools.
    
    
    							Thanks,
    
    							John

    Filter, hmmm...
    
    A full configuration is a filter (DE), pump, hoses and dedicated wiring
    from your house to the pool (use GFCI).

    I'll take a stab at the filter stuff: $500 (based on my pool, which
    is 15'x30'x48".
    
    Sand and cartride filters are cheaper.  Small filters will run longer,
    get dirtier quicker and chew up lots of juice.  Match the filter
    to the pool.  A good filter should be able to turn the water in
    6-8 hours.
    
    C

    I think you are going to have a very difficult if not impossible
    time using the existing liner.  It is almost impossible to get the
    openings (in the liner) for the skimmer and the filter return in
    the exact same place on the side wall.  Also, the liners become
    brittle with age.  It may crack while you are removing it.
    
    In the long run the pool will be well worth the time and money.
    As others have said.  Level.  The more nearly perfect the level
    of the pool when it is installed the longer it will last.
    
    It is not necessary to be a Chemist to keep the water clear.  Chlorine
    is the answer.  I have given up on granular Chlorine.  As someone
    mentioned re: HTH, it clouds the water.  Most dry Chlorine is Calcium
    Hypochlorate (sp).  In other words it contains calcium.  A lot like
    putting chalk dust in the water.  I have switched to liquid.  Sodium
    rather than calcium.  No harder to handle.  Watch for spattering.
    It is triple strength houselold bleach.  Pour carefully and rinse
    container and measuring device thoroughly.
    
    Last comment.  Pool chemicals can be hazardous.  Read the labels.
    Chlorine especially, reacts (sometimes violently) with lots of things
    including other pool chemicals.  Not a scare message, just a note
    to be careful.
    
    
    Peter Duke
    

    The liner was bought last year.  The hose that comes out of the
    filter and back into the pool is attached to the pool still.  So
    if the existing filter worked with the liner that is on the pool
    now why wouldn't it work with another filter?  When and if I take
    this MONSTER apart, would it be a good idea to keep the liner wet
    until I'm ready to set it up?  Can someone tell me just how much
    more my electric bill will be?!
    							John

    re: pool liner. I'm inclined to agree about reuse.  The liner is made
    to stretch to fit when you fill it with water.  Unfortunately, it will
    shrink when you empty it and will not stretch to fit the second time.
    This happened to me and I ended up with a new liner.
    
    Chris 

    I am in the process now of setting up a used above ground pool and
    was having a tough time with the liner. After calling a pool
    installation company and having them tell me that they would not
    install the pool wihout a new liner because they tend to shrink
    and never line up properly, I am buying a new one this week. 
    They did say that they shrink after about a year, so you may
    be able to get away with yours. The problem is that it looks fine
    until you get about 1-2 feet of water in the pool and then it
    starts to stretch out.
    	I had no problem with the hardware at all. There were onle about
    2 or 3 different size sheet metal screws and very few were rusted.
    Other notes in this file will give you a lot of info on the setup
    and maintenence of the pool which you should read. They sound more
    experienced than me, particularly a note about filters. After
    readind this check out the CLASSIFIED_ADS, there was an ad placed
    this week for 5 pump/filter combinations. Perhaps one of these
    would suit your needs. Good luck.

    
    John
    
    I bought a new lomart pump and filter last year for my 24 foot round
    
    and it cost $279 . It works well and is easy to use for backwashing
    
    (cleaning the sand). Forgot to mention it was sand. I like the sand
    
    filters the best because of ease of operation.
    
    As far as cost to run a filter for about 8 to 10 hours a day may
    
    cost you about $10 more a month depending on your towns electric rate.
                  
    	I also have three kids who use the pool and along with their
    
    friends be prepared for NOISE !!!!
    
    
    				Good luck 
    
    				  Bob

    Check with your power company to see if electric rates go down at
    night.  If so, run your filter at night!

    Just remember to check with local ordinances concerning pools and
    any requirements for having the yard and/or pool fenced in.
    
    It's a good idea to fence the area in.  Some people are just too
    lawsuit-happy.  So, protect yourself.
    
    
    But, above all, enjoy the pool!

    
    Make sure the ground and sand under your pool is free of ants
    before you put it up.  I didn't and now I have tons of the 
    little buggers.
    
    I've treated the immediate area around the pool, but does anyone
    know if the ones under will cause major damage?
    
    Shane
    

Re 1221.12 
                  
<    	I also have three kids who use the pool and along with their
<    friends be prepared for NOISE !!!!
    
 But as far as maintenance goes, kids are about the best thing
 going.  Run your filter while their in it -- stirring things up --
 and you'll have to vacuum only about a third as much.

    A couple questions from a 1st-timer........
    
    Anyone have one of those hand-held electronic water testers (meter)?
    I saw one at a pool supply store for $20 and was wondering how well
    they work (accuracy).  I have trouble testing the PH because the
    colors on the chart are so close, and I'm very color-blind.  My
    wife, who isn't color-blind, also has a hard time distinguishing.
    Maybe a recommendation for a better/easier test kit?
    
    The pool I have is one of those little Coleco 12'x3' (for the kids,
    but I've cooled-off a couple times in it).  It came with a small
    cartridge filter which does a decent job, but is not strong enough
    to vacuum the bottom.  Any recommendations for a bottom cleaner?
    
    John 

    	I'm interested in putting in an above ground pool.  I read note
    1221 and a few unanswered questions.  I got a flyer from NAMCO leisure
    world and they advertise quite a few different pools with all the
    accessories.  Does anyone have any expierience with them?  Do they
    provide installation?  I'd like a 27 to 24 foot round pool and have
    a flat yard in Leominster.  What can I expect to pay for an install?
    Are their ways in which I could cut down on the costs, like running
    power for the pump?  Are there any other reputable pool companies
    or installers in my area?  also do most of these companies provide
    payment plans?  How about "1-800-THE-POOL"?  Are they good or a
    ripoff?  I'd appreciate any info.
    
    					Thanks, George Ardini

    I bought a pool from Namco last year (27') and was happy with their
    products. I did however, set everything up, with plenty of help
    from my neighbors. Installation is no small job. Although it is
    fairly straight forward, it does involve alot of labor. Especially
    during the preparation of the pool bottom. If you don't have access
    to a team of 6 or more peolpe during the set up period, or don't
    have the ambition to excavate out the saucered pool foundation.
    I'd recommend you pay for the installation. I don't know what the
    installation of my 27 footer would of been but I would expect that
    it would cost about as much as the entire pool did.

    I bought a 27' ester williams from namco 3 years ago.  I put together
    in one weekend with an 8 year old son.  I had my gorund prepared
    by a hired bobcat $50.  then put down stonedust. My pool had a
    deck and fence.
    For electric work in mass, you must have an electrician do the work.
    2-4$00.
    BTW, NAMCO doesn't install, but does contract the work out.  for
    the 27', it would have cost me $1000 without electrical.  so
    my weekends work was worth $950.  not bad.
    
    Now, if you buy a cheapie other than extruded aluminum, i'd hire
    it
    done!  the extruded al put themselves together.
    ed
    
    

    	Thanks for the info.  I think I'm going to go for the extruded
    aluminum 27' pool.  In the preparation how did you insure a flat
    or level surface.  I see other people say they used a transit. 
    Are they easy to use?  Can you rent them?  If so, how much and where
    do you rent them?  My spot for the pool is slightly slanted so that
    the high end will be about a foot higher than the low end.  Do you
    first pick up the sod then use the trnsit to figure just how deep
    you'll have to go to make it a level surface?  Then once you have
    a level surface then lay out some sand?  How much sand in inches
    deep do you put down?  should you dig out an area bigger than the
    27 feet or should you make it as exact as you can?  I really appreciate
    the info you have given me.  If you could give me some more info
    I'd appreciate it.  Thanks,    George Ardini

Ahh yes -- a topic near and dear to my heart (and my back!).  I bought and put
up NAMCO's 18' x 33' oval pool last summer.  Here's some brief, random
thoughts on the matter.

BEFORE BUYING -- we checked with a friend whose parents are in the pool
business and basically determined that the NAMCO price was very reasonable.

SITE WORK -- I had the pool area "rough"-leveled and a load of sand brought in.
I "fine-tuned" the leveling, using a borrowed transit. My brother and I spent a
night putting together the braces...there are mucho screws --- you need
a good socket set and a power screwdriver.  Two neighbors helped me with
the actual pool-raising.

PROBLEM #1 -- When the pool was half-full, we noticed two small slits (which I
patched) and also noticed another leak that had already been patched.  When I
called the store, they told me I could return the liner for a new one -- ha!
the pool now had about 10,000 gallons of water in it and my 6-year old son was
standing there wearing his black-orange-pink jams, his official Mickey Mouse
sunglasses, his genuine Smurfs flippers, and holding his life-size inflatable
giraffe, asking me if he could go in yet.  I decided to chance it.

PROBLEM #2 -- During the January thaw, I noticed my pool cover was sinking! By
March there was no water in the pool...a seam had failed (at least that's my
contention). In addition, because of the shifting weight of the ice, the walls
have buckled. I took photos of the seam and the walls, and took the liner back
to the store last Friday.  The store sent the photos to their main office in
Conn. for a determination on the warranty for the liner and the walls.  I'm
supposed to hear from them this week.

Despite the potential frustration and cost, I have to admit that I enjoyed
the pool last summer (I originally wanted a spa but was outvoted!).  Who
knows, this could become a spring ritual for me...instead of washing windows,
I'll rebuild my pool every May!

In case you haven't purchased a pool yet, I'll keep you posted on my warranty
endeavors...I'm working with Dave at the Worcester store.

-Bruce
                                             
    

    	Patio blocks I have heard mentioned often.  Do you mean I should
    put these blocks all along the periferi froming a giant circle under
    the entire circle of the pool walls or just under each supporting
    post?  I'm confused about this.  Please let me know!
    
    						George Ardini

    If you haven't bought a Namco pool yet, you may want to check-out
    a place called Rogers Pool in Lowell.  In fact, they now have a
    2nd store in Salem, NH.  The reason I mention Rogers is that I've
    seen ads in the papers saying they'll provide free installation
    with the purchase of a pool-> spring-time only.  Their prices have
    always been reasonable.  Just a suggestion....
    
    John

    You put the patio bricks under the uprights.
    
    re free installation.  nothing in life is free.
    you gotta have three basic components, the pool, the filter system,
    and the installation.  most places will give you two of these 
    for one money, you pay more for the third.
    
    re leveling.  I hired a person with a bobcat to do the site work.
    I marked out a 30foot area.  I put a stake in the middle, used a
    fifteen foot rope, went in circle with spray paint and marked 
    out the area for him.  then I had the stone dust dumped in
    and spread.  to final level,  i used an 8'x8' section of
    chain link fence dragged behind my son.  I was level to the inch.
    save some stone dust to line the vertical walls to ground with.
    
    In these days of power screw drivers,, I'D BUY A COUPLE FOR THE
    JOB.
    
    
ed
    

    
    re 2187.2 
    	$1000 to install a 27' round pool?
    	I just purchased a 15x30 oval and the install price
    	is $735. 
    
    The pool is going to be installed next week. I noticed
    another pool in my neighborhood which was installed last
    week by NAMCO(contractor). The liner is overlapping about
    1/4 the way down the outside of the pool in some spots and
    looks terrible. Should the extra liner be folded away or cut?
    
    Len DiPinto
    

    Never cut the liner.  Fold it instead.  We bought a used pool once
    upon a time and had a bitch of a time fitting the liner that had
    been cut.
    
    					Steve

    Does the liner have to be folded before the uprights are
    installed? I would like to have the installers fold it
    properly instead of hacking it later myself. It looks like
    the liner gets sandwitched(sp?) between the wall and uprights.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Never had a pool before
    Len DiPinto
    

    Re: .10
    
    You would fold the liner after the uprights are installed. Just
    make sure you fold it before you fill the pool with water.  It is
    the pressure of the water that will not allow you to fold it later.
    
    					Steve

    
    
    A word of caution to anyone having a pool installed by a
    Namco contractor by the name of Hawaiian Blue pool installers.
    They put up my 15x30 oval last week. What a mess! The 5 uprights
    on the side that should be straight are a foot off. 
    
    House foundation(distances are from upright to house)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
		|	|	|	|	|
    	10'3"	|10'6"	|10'6"	|10'9"	|11'3"	|
    		|	|	|	|	|
    		|	|	|	|	|
    		*	*	*	*	*
    	   
 	*						*
    
    
    *							     *

    The top rail of the pool on the straight side is a mess. After
    a few lenghty discussions with the installers they have agreed
    to come back,disassemble the pool and reinstall it right.(I hope)
    If anybody else is having one installed from Namco feel free to
    call of send mail for more info on this horror story.
    
    Len DiPinto
    NULL::DIPINTO
    DTN 225-6233

	I am about to purchase a 24' x 4' above ground pool and
	need help in a few areas.

	Filter motors seem to start at 3/4 hp and go up to around
	1 and 1/2 hp.  Does the additional hp make a difference in
	terms of how well it cleans the pool, how quickly it
	cleans the pool and electricity costs?

	I would like to do the wiring myself to save a $.  Can any
	DIYers tell me whats involved and what materials are best?
	Thanks.

				Jim

    
    
    	re .18
    
    	I did the wiring myself on a 15x30 oval 2 weeks ago.
    	The total cost of materials was $116.00. This included
    	100 feet of under ground wire that I am going to use
    	for a bug lite. I put a GFCI breaker in my panel and
    	ran 12-2 romex to the back wall of my house and put
    	a junction box. On the outside of the house I put a
    	double weatherproof box with receptacles on one side
    	and a switch on the other. From the box I ran stranded(sp?)
    	wire in a conduit to a weatherproof box lacated next to
    	the filter and installed a twist and lock receptacle. From
    	what I was told about the code a twist and lock is required
    	if the plug is less than 5 feet from the pool wall. I also
    	ran #8 solid copper from the ground at the weatherproof 
    	box on the house to 6 of the uprights and the filter. The
        wiring was inspected last week and passed. I am not an
    	electrician and may have not used the right words for
    	some of these materials. I read the code and consulted
    	an electrician and the job fairly easy.
    
    
    On pool chemicals has anybody tried Baquacil? It is chlorine-free
    and looks to be much less work. The pool store gave me a price
    quote that is just slightly higher than chlorine based chemicals.
    My pool came with a season supply of chemicals but I am considering
    Baquacil for next year.
    
    
    

    I used BAQUACIL all last summer and liked it very much. I have heard
    that it is a little more expensive than chlorine but less work.
    I have never used chlorine so I don't really know. Although I tested
    the water more often, I only had to add chemicals once a week. 
    Between a good filter and the baquacil the water was always crystal
    clear. A lot of people noted that the baquacil did not bother their
    eyes or cause allergic reactions like the chlorine did some times.
    It doesn't cause fading in bathing suits, I don't know that chlorine
    does either, only heard that it does. Chlorine turns my daughter's
    blond hair green, but this is not a problem with baquacil. I
    started using baquacil because that is what Seasonal Pool was
    recommending (pushing?) when I bought the pool last summer, but
    I really like it and am going to continue its use. I believe
    there is a conversion step (chemical) when going from chlorine to
    baquacil, but the supplier can tell you about that. If you have
    any more questions, contact me and I will try to help out if I can.
    
                                                        Wayne
    
    

	I put my 27' pool in last weekend and all went well.  You are
    all right about it being a "labor-intensive" job.  I could have
    used more people and less beer though.  Now I am trying to get the
    chemicals right.  I shocked it with this stuff called "SOCKIT" and
    increased the ph with some "PH INCREASE".  My problem now after
    three days of continued filtering is the chlorine level is about
    4 PPM and the ph is about 8.4.  This morning I put in a bucket of
    "PH MINUS".  I'll test it when I go home tonight.  Does anyone have
    any suggestions as how to get the chlorine level down and the ph
    stabilized.  I've read the books and directions with the chemicals
    but what I would like is some actual expierienced people's advice.
    Maybe I am approaching the problem wrong.  I have three eager little
    boys waiting to jump in!
    
    					Thanks, George Ardini

      If you haven't done it already get yourself one of the large
    (4 different tests) pool test kits. THE MOST important is PH. The
    PH must be right or everything else won't work out. However, before
    you adjust the PH you must test for something called Total Alkalinity.
    This is only a measure of the reserve of alkalinity in your pool.
    It is adjusted by adding baking soda! If you haven't already added
    any you'll probably need quite a bit. Last spring I had to add 15lbs.
    to get my pool right. (the ex owners didn't take proper care of
    the pool) Once the total alkalinity is right, you can check the
    PH. If it's wrong then you can adjust it. If it's way off adjust
    it a little at a time until it's right. Now check the Chlorine.
    If it's too high, leave the pool uncovered for a few days and the
    sun will lower it for you. The chlorine level isn't too critical,
    just keep it between .8 + 1.5 ppm and you'll be safe. Now for the
    big one... Chlorine in a pool doesn't really smell much or burn
    your eyes; if you get a strong chlorine odor or it really burns
    you eyes then that means that there is a buildup of chlorine compounds
    (that's the chlorine doing it's job, it has combined with impurities
    like urine, sweat, suntan oil etc) and it's time to shock. 
    
       The only other hint I can give you is that you should use stabilized
    chlorine. It is cheaper in the long run and it doesn't leave powder
    residue on the bottom of your pool. If you do use stabilized chlorine
    make sure you add the right amount of stabilizer to the pool.
    
       The best book on this stuff that I've found is The Pool Book
    from Bioguard. 
    
      If you have any more questions feel free to ask me I learned all
    this stuff the hard way (trial and error) Once you know it it's
    easy to take care of the pool, and it doesn't take much time.
    
    					Kenny

    
    
      To solve your problem quickly, throw in a couple of boxes of
    baking soda. You know "arm and hammer" or whatever the stuffs called.
    It nutralizes all the crap you've done already.
    
    
    BAL

     The 4-way test kit will give you the tests for: Chlorine, PH, Total
    alkalinity. These tests only take a minute, and if your total
    alkalinity is off it will affect the others. Like the previous reply
    said Arm and Hammer is all you need.
    
    					Kenny

    re -15
    
    DO NOT JUST THROW IN BAKING SODA!!!!
    
    It is very important to TEST the water and find out EXACTLY what
    it needs before adding anything.  A couple of years ago I added
    a sh*t load of baking soda to my pool to get the PH up.  What I
    didn't know was that baking soda affects the total alkalinity more
    than it affects the PH.  Now my TA is around 200, and all I can
    do is wait until the yearly additions of fresh water slowly decrease
    the TA.
    
    Pool stores will test your water for free.  I've even had them test
    my water and then not bought anything.  Since this is your first
    year, I would recommend letting the pool store people lead you to
    the perfect balance (sort of a religious experience :-)).  Once
    you achieve balance, pool maintenance is easy.
    
    Good luck and happy swimming
    
    Steve

    A few things I've learned:

    Do your adjustments incrementally.  The best way I've found is to
    take a sample to a pool store as mentioned before.  Ask them to
    test pH, TA, available chlorine, and (assuming you're using stabilized
    chlorine), stabilizer.  If you know the current readings and the number of
    gallons of water in your pool, they'll be able to help you determine
    approximate amounts of chemicals to add.
    
    When adding the stuff, add a little less than you think you'll need.
    Then wait 6-8 hours with the pump running before testing again with
    your home test kit.  Add more if you need to and wait again before
    further adjustment.  If you don't wait long enough, you can end
    up "bouncing" the pH (and other readings) around like crazy.
    
    Also remember that a chemical to adjust one reading can affect others.
    I believe the correct approach is to adjust the TA first, then the pH,
    then stabilize, then chlorinate.  Recheck readings after each step.
    
    If TA is too high, you'll have cloudy water and scaling will form
    on tile and metal parts.  If TA is too low, you can have a bouncing
    pH and equipment corrosion.  The range for TA is 80-120 ppm.  For
    my pool (inground gunite), ideal is 110ppm.  I don't know if above
    ground/liner pools is different.
    
    If pH is too high, again, you'll get cloudy water and scaling. 
    If pH too low (i.e. acidic water), you'll have corrosion and
    burning eyes.  adjust pH to between 7.4 and 7.6.
    
    The stabilizer prevents wasting of chlorine by holding available
    chlorine in the pool.  As it is needed, the available chlorine will
    be released to do its job.  Stabilizer should be 30-50ppm.  Note
    that stabilizer does not dissipate.  You only need to add more if
    you add significant amounts of fresh water to your pool (e.g. filling
    it in the spring).
    
    The chemicals used most frequently to adjust things are:
    
    	pH Minus - Sodium Bisulfate; lowers pH
    	Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda); raises pH and TA
    	Sodium Carbonate; raises pH leaving TA unaffected
    	Stabilizer (Cyanuric Acid); lowers pH (and TA, I think)
    	Stain remover (Muriatic Acid); lowers pH and TA.
    
    Chlorine comes in stabilized and unstabilized varieties.  Unstabilized
    chlorine is usually Sodium Hypochlorite (liquid) or Calcium Hypochlorite
    (dry).  Unstabilized chlorine is used for shock treatment.  Some
    people also use it for maintaining chlorine levels.  Probably the best
    known dry brand is HTH.  Stabilized chlorine is MUCH better for
    regular maintenance since the stabilizer holds available chlorine
    until it is needed.  Unstabilized chlorine dissipates much faster.
    
    I personally prefer liquid shock to the dry shock (e.g. SOCK-IT).
    I got very tired of vacuuming up all the residual (the "inert
    ingredient) from the dry stuff and having to backwash my DE filter.
    If you buy liquid shock, check the label.  I have seen it in different
    concentrations; either 6% or 12.5% available chlorine solutions.
    I always buy the 12% variety, so I don't have to lug home twice
    as many bottles.  One gallon of the 12% liquid is roughly equivalent
    to one pound of HTH.  Also remember that the liquid has a shelf
    life, so don't buy more than you'll use in a season.
    
    Stabilized chlorine is either Sodium Dichloro-S-Triazinetrione or
    Sodium Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione.  4 oz. of Dichlor is roughly
    equivalent to 3 oz. of Trichlor.  Use these comparisons when price
    shopping if you don't have a preference.  I use the trichlor variety.
    I believe the major difference is that dichlor disolves faster than
    the trichlor.
    
    WARNING:  Do NOT mix chemicals directly together!  This is very
    dangerous.  Even mixing different types of chlorine can cause an
    explosion.  This is most important for those people that use 
    automatic chlorine feeders/dispensers.  If you change types, remove
    any of the previous type before adding the new type.
    
    Now a word on testing...Has anyone else used the 3-way test "dip
    sticks"?  I think these things are fantastic!  They are little plastic
    strips with 3 pads on them.  You dip them in a water sample (leaving
    the bottom pad in the water for 30 seconds) and compare the color
    of the pads to a chart on the bottle.  They test for pH, TA, and
    available chlorine.  No more messing with droppers and liquid chemicals
    etc.  They save tremendous amounts of time.

    
    Finally, one of the best things I did after buying my house with
    a pool was to attend "pool school".  Some pool stores hold classes
    at the beginning of the pool season for people who want to learn
    tricks of the trade and maintenance how-to's.  I went to one at
    Littleton Pool on Rte 119.  (They also gave away door prizes).
    
    Hope some of this is useful.
    
    Rob

I have a bad problem. This reply looks like an anniversary of reply .5
which I see never got an answer.

We have an IG pool, 16x36', vinyl lined. We were opening it Saturday and
the vinyl in both corners on one end developed 12" rips above the water line.
We had a pool serviceman look at it and he said it's not repairable and we
needed a replacement liner at a cost of about $1500. We have lived here one
season and the pool is about 7 years old. He said the vinyl was worn-out
possibly from unbalanced ph, improper chemical use etc.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm looking for a miracle, I guess.
I've got six unhappy children, we're all Yankees living in North Carolina, and
it gets HOT here.

/steve

    Assuming that things haven't changed drastically since I was installing
    IGV pools one summer long ago (and far, far away ;^), I'm afraid
    you are SOL.  There is no way to fix a torn liner in a way that
    will prevent catastrophe. Small punctures can be dealt with, but,
    not big rips.  The potential disaster lies in the water getting
    through the rip in large enough quantities to wash out the ground
    supporting the sides. 
    
    You need to pump the pool dry and get a new "big blue baggie".
    
    Alan

I don't know if the biggest issue for you is down time or expense.

We replaced the liner in my parents pool, it was an in ground, 16x32.

I remember we pumped out the pool, took off the top boards, tore out 
the liner, put in the new one, filled it up again, and replaced the 
top boards.

It wasn't really difficult, it was more a matter of being careful, and 
having enough people to spread the liner.   On refil, we had to be 
careful of getting all of the creases out and the seams in the right 
place.  We also had to be sure the sand wasn't moving, or the bottom 
would be different.

    
    
    ref previous reply - 
    
    Why did you replace the liner?  Do you know approx. cost of the
    new liner? We were just quoted $800-900 plus labor.
    
    As far as the risks of getting water behind the liner --
    Looking down through the rip, I see what looks and feels like a
    fiberglass(?) wall. I have no idea whats under the liner on the
    bottom.

They replaced the liner because it was badly torn.  I think it was a 
huge tear at a corner, above the normal water line.

I have no idea what just the liner cost them, or what it would have 
additionally cost them to have it installed by someone else.  Also, 
this was in upstate NY about 9 years ago.    

Their pool is quite old.  I think the walls behind the liner were some 
type of board, the name is escaping me.  But figure it this way, if 
the walls were meant to be waterproof and able to withstand the 
pressure of the water, then you wouldn't need a liner.

I know there was sand under the bottom of the liner in ours.  That's 
why we were told never to jump in and smack our heels into the bottom, 
you will create permanent indentations which are then impossible to 
vacumn.

    
    RE: < Note 183.6 by ATLAST::DROWN >
    
    With a last name like this  ^^^^^ I suggest you close up the pool
    and forget about swimming :-) !
    
    Bill

    When pumping out the pool, I hope you've got a low water table.
    I know of several cases where ground water "floated" the liner
    when the pool was being pumped out.  Then you've got real problems.
    Putting a new liner in when the hole fills with water is much more
    difficult and expensive.  If you have a high water table, it may
    be worth it to wait for "low tide".
    
    Rob

    
    Luckily (?) we're having a drought here in North Carolina so its
    low tide. Also, the way I'm draining it is with a siphon hose that
    runs from the pool down hill away from the house and pool. Its slow
    but I'm waiting for a bank loan approval anyway (sigh) and I'm getting
    good water for my fruit trees. If I have to finish in a hurry, my
    backwash hose also can be run about 75' downhill.
    
    BTW, after all these scary replies, I decided to get the liner replaced
    by a pool contractor that guarantees his work. This pool is 7 seasons
    old and I hope this won't be necessary again in 7 years.
    
    /steve drown  (yeah, I know, great name for it)
    

I'm having problems with a Jacuzzzi filter (fiberglass, sand) for an above
ground pool. The problem I'm having is getting the plastic belt back into the
cap that is on the filter basket. We've had the pool for about 3 three years. 
Since we've had it we've always had a tough time getting the belt back in,
but this year we can't get it to go all the way around the case of the filter
basket at all. It stops about 1/2 way around and won't go any further.
We tried:
	o 2 new belts. 
	o Making a point at the end belt (the belt's end is blunt).
	o Scraping the paint off the case area where the belt contacts the case.
	o Tried to deburr any areas at all on the case and cap that weren't
	  perfectly smooth.
	o Wetting the case, cap and belt thinking this lubricates things a bit.
	o Pushing the belt in as far as it goes, starting the pump up and 
	  tryed to push it in further. This worked some times last year.

Does anyone out there have this type of pump and do you have difficulties with
it ?? What works for you ??  
Any ideas to try ??

    I am now in the beginning stages of planning to build a deck half way
    around the circumference of my 21'(diameter) pool this spring. Any
    suggestions, input, and experiences (battle scars) for such a project
    are appreciated. I does not seem that buidling around something round
    (pool) with straight edged materials will be pick nick. At this
    point some questions that come to mind are:
         
       o Where can I find pland to construct such a deck ?
       o How to anchor the deck support to the ground especially those
         near the wall of the pool ?
       o Any economizing tips anyone might offer since I do not have
         a lavish budget for the project ?
       o Is an 8' wide deck too skimpy and not roomy enough ?
       o Please add any and all suggestions. Thanks.

    Is the pool above ground or inground??
    
    If above ground, I would just build the deck as it the pool did not
    exist and then trim the ends of the boards to match the pool once
    fitted in place.  A sabre saw would allow you to make curved cuts.
    Depending on the thickness of the deck material you may want to
    rent a industrial model because most "home use" saber saws do not
    handle 2x boards very well.
    
    As to how wide the deck needs to be...  Measure the length of the
    lounge chairs you plan to use and then add at least 3 feet for a walk
    way between the pool edge and the chairs.  Fire code for interior walk
    ways in buildings is 4 ft.  You although want to keep in mind that
    some people rotate the chairs to follow the sun to get the maximun
    tan and plan the deck width accordingly.  I personally think that
    10 ft would allow you more options but then it would also cost more
    to build.  You might build a larger deck on one or two sides and
    the minimun on the other sides to help contain costs.
        
    Do you plan on having a table with umbrella or other gathering area?
    I would include a larger area on either the long side or the ends
    to accomdate a picnic table or table with umbrella so that you could
    use the deck as a place to have meals etc.  
    
    Do you have a diving board or other speciality items?  These may
    require a larger area to provide room for the item and adequate
    passage to and from the item to to other areas around the pool.

    In regards to .1:
    
    The pool is already in place. It is a 21' above ground.
    
    >Do you plan to have a table with umbrella or other gathering area?
    
     No, I have a patio on the ground surrounding the remaining area
     after the deck is built.
    
    >Do you have a diving board or other specific items ?
    
     No and yes. No, I do not plan to put a diving board on an above
     ground pool. And yes, I would like to place one of those conventional
     water slides on the deck. 
    
     BTW does anyone out there have a used POOL SLIDE for sale ??? Contact
     me by mail.         
    
                                                     

    This is not an easy project. I did one around an 18 foot round above
    ground several  years ago. The nice thing is if you are doing this
    in the summer you can take a cooling break in the pool. 
    
    I have seen several articles about what you are getting ready to do
    in magazines like Popular Science, Handyman etc., a trip to 
    the library might turn them up.    

    As the previous replys indicated on the side that gets all the
    sun I built the Deck large enough for lounge chairs. I built a
    little walkway 28" wide around the rest of the pool. This was nice
    for getting to pool to clean. I put a hinged hatch on my Deck
    for access to pump and it was great storage for chairs, and the
    pool vaccum hose, attachments, and pool cover.
    
    As far as construction about the only thing I would have done
    different would be to us the 5/8" thick decking vs. the 2" thick.
    It would hve been easier to work with and nail.  
    

    I just signed a deal with NAMCO, and put down a deposit. I'm supposed
    to go back in two weeks and pick up everything but the actual pool
    and liner, which which are delivered to my home.
    
    The catch is, I lay out the full amount for the package, and then
    the major part of it is delivered sometime afterward. I'm not used
    to doing business this way - I'd much prefer to hand the money for
    the pool and liner over to the person who delivers them in good
    condition. When I raised my objection, the NAMCO manager said that's
    the way they do business.
    
    Has anyone out there bought pools from NAMCO and had the same objection
    to their "business as usual"? What did you do about it?

    re-.1
    I would have told him that he would get his money when the pool
    was delivered and that "that is the way *I* do business".
    -j

    I agree...my parents have purchased 2 pools (over the years) from
    Namco.  We have found them to be a bait and switch company.  They
    advertise something that they never seem to have in stock, then
    try to sell you a higher-priced item.
    
    As far as paying ahead of time, I'd tell him to forget it, and start
    to leave.  After what my husband and I went through with furniture
    deliveries being damaged, and a contractor who jerked us around,
    there is NO WAY I will EVER pay in full again until I receive the
    item in PERFECT condition.
    
    Live and learn...good luck with your pool!
                             
    - Robin -

    
    Ditto the previous replies.  They are saying 1 of 2 things.  Either
    they don't trust you or they think you won't be satified with their
    product and service and won't complete payment.  Any reputable company
    with a good product and good service would not need to require full
    payment before the product and service was received.  There are plenty
    of pool suppliers around that would appreciate your business more than
    this place seems too.  They sound like a complaint waiting to happen!

My advice- DON'T DO IT!!

I had a bad experience under the same circumstances, Pay 1st, Deliver ??.
A Brady & Sun add on room was paid for up front, delivered 40 days late,
and the installation left me with an 11x22 shower stall. They have since
filed Chapter 11.

Bob

    For what it's worth, considering all the negatives of the previous
    responses, I have done business with Namco on sveral occasions on
    a pay up front basis (was also concerned the first time) but have
    yet to get burned.  Had one minor problem , called them, it was
    corrected immediately with no hassles.  I wish I could say the same
    for  some other non Namco transactions.  I guess I'm just to 
    trusting.  

    I have to agree with .24. I bought a pool from NAMCO last season
    and had no problems dealing with them (bought from Hudson, NH store).
    The installation was paid for after the work was done (its contracted
    out).
    
    Eric

    I'm seriously considering a pool this year. I have read this entire
    note, and I don't really get a good feel for what it might cost
    me. It seems if i install it myself, I could save somewhere between
    750-1200 bucks.
    
    What would a new pool with a decent filter set up and all around
    good quality(Liner, aluminum sides) run me? Any suggestions for
    good brand names available through namco, or elsewhere.
    
    Will it really cost me 5k for something decent quality wise in the
    24'to 27' range. i thought above ground pools are cheap!
    
    Any pointers or general info would be appreciated!
    
    	Barry

    Installation for our 15 x 30 oval was about $750 (we had some
    additional deck work done for the pool, so that's not in this amt.)
    and was done last September. That included required leveling, forming
    the undersurface, and the pool itself.
    
    The cost of the pool and associated equipment will vary considerably
    depending on the material the pool frame is made out of (since in
    any case, you'll ned filters, etc). The difference between a galvanized
    steel vs extruded aluminum frame could be as high as $1000, depending
    on how things are set up. Liner quality can also vary in price and
    depending on the accessories (we have a walk around deck on the
    pool with a 6 x 15 deck on one side made out of aluminum), your
    price can easily approach $5k, but that's getting pretty fancy.
    
    Prices will depend on:
            
          1)Frame material (galv. steel, roll aluminum, or extruded
            aluminum).
          2)Liner thickness and design
          3)If a deck is part of the package
          4)Filter type (cartridge, sand, DE) and material its made
            out of
          5)Pump size
    
    There are quite a few notes in this notyesfile on pools and the
    various pros and cons of the above subjects (see note 1111 for the
    index). Reading them will make you an "educated consumer" (sorry
    Sy Sims).
    
    Eric

    In my limited experience, I've found that it's a lot like buying
    a car:
    
    	o  The variety of options is bewildering.
    
    	o  Obnoxious salesmen will use that bewilderment to sell you
    	   the least product for the most money.
    
    You can get a 24' round package, middle-of-the-road quality, with everything
    you need for the first summer, for about $2000. Installation will
    run about $600-700 extra for basically flat terrain (2' drop).
    
    You'll get ripped off on a package (pool, filter, checicals, cleaning
    tools, ladder, cover, etc) unless you do your homework. Itemize
    the contents of the package, right down to the thermometer, and
    get shelf/sale prices for each item. Write everything down, and
    then go at it with a calculator.
    
    NAMCO UPDATE (re .19):
    
    Thanks to .20 ("That's the way **I** do business!"). I used exactly
    that line, and managed to pry out of the store manager the fact
    that they have a 90-day 0-interest finance plan, which I will use to pay
    the balance on the pool AFTER it is delivered.
    
    It is probably appropriate to relate my entire NAMCO experience.
    I dealt with the store in Hudson, NH. Strolling in on a Saturday
    afternoon, I was accosted by Ken, who got an idea of my interests
    and then started in earnest to squeeze me dry. I kept showing him
    the sales flyer, he kept spouting figures that seemed to have no
    basis in reality. There was a $1500 difference between what he wanted
    and what I could justify. After a fruitless and exasperating half
    hour, I tuned out completely.
    
    I tried some more half-hearted window shopping, but upon realizing
    that I was crossing streets rather than getting too close to another
    pool store, I decided to confront the situation squarely. I went
    back to NAMCO with a legal pad, a calculator and the tattered sales
    flyer, and asked to speak to anyone but Ken. My new salesman, Ray,
    was polite, helpful, and even willing to admit that he didn't have
    all the answers - an obvious job mismatch.
    
    After 45 minutes of itemizing and price-checking with Ray, the store
    manager came over to investigate. He revealed that he would be able
    to chop another $100 off the "package" price (which was rapidly
    approaching the sale price of all the items) - instead I got a better
    liner and a good solar cover.

    Another 30 minutes passed. I had a purchase agreement in hand, and
    they had a $500 deposit, and that's when I found out that they expected
    me to pay in full 2 weeks before an independent shipping company
    delivered the pool. I voiced my objection to deaf ears, and left
    the store feeling somewhat uncomfortable. After mulling it over
    for a while, and fortified by the feedback in this conference and
    from family and neighbors, I called the store manager. "This is
    not the way I do business," I said. "Why do you trust the shipping
    company with my pool, but not with your check," I said. The latter
    comment must have stung, because that's when the manager said, "Well,
    there's not much we can do, unless you want to use our
    90-day-same-as-cash plan."
    
    I go up to fill out the finace forms tonight. The pool should be
    delivered in 10 days. They will get the balance when I get all the
    pieces. I'll check in again when the water temp is above 70.

    
            Cleaning your round pool the easy way!!!!!
    
    
            Thought I'd share my method with everyone. I have a 24'by
    4' round pool and hate the chore of vacuming. Now I get my weekly
    jog in and clean my pool at the same time. I just jog around the
    pool (inside of course) about 15 or 20 times and get the water 
    circulating real well. Jump out,catch my breath and watch the dirt
    settle in the middle of the pool. Once the water stops I end up
    with a small area in the middle of the pool full of dirt that vacums
    up in minutes. The only caution is to change the direction each
    time to prevent the liner from shifting or twisting. 
            Water jogging is also much better for the joints that road
    jogging.
             
                          Mike my_solar_cover_went_on_this_week_!!!
    

    re: .22  I used to do that with my kids.  Instead of yelling "Time
    to get out of the pool"  I would yell "Whirlpool and out in 5 minutes".
    Then I would take my net and pick up the glob in the middle later
    on.  Works every time.
    
    Chris D.

    Another trick to faster vaccuming those above ground pools is
    to buy one of those plastic sleeves that golf clubs get put in
    when using a golf bag.  Place it on the end of the vaccum tubing
    and use it as a direct wand.  If you have an abundance of water
    and need to drain some off, set your filter on direct backwash
    and suck away at the big chunks.  We do this when we open the 
    pool or when we have excess sediment to get rid of.  Takes less
    time and gives you a real reward.  We don't use our filter 
    continuously but set it going for awhile and then turn it off
    to let the junque settle in the center of the pool.  

    BTW.....I have quite a story about our pool motor shorting out....
    it was on a trip system so we didn't "blow" the fuses!

    We had an intermittent problem with the motor shorting out.  Hugh
    tried to fix it on site but finally had to take it into his 
    workbench where it sat while he got his tools lined up.  The 
    "problem" showed itself while he had his back turned!  Slithering
    across his workbench was this long slender snake!  He just *had*
    to bring the thing out to show me!  Eeeek!  His little friend was
    very much disturbed at being forced out of!  Hugh
    took him for a long walk AWAY from the pool!  The motor went back
    to working properly BUT now we have a leak to find in the liner
    this year!  

    justme....jacqui

    a little late, but...
        I have bought two pools and one spa from the NAMCO in Hudson,NH
    All were delivered after payment and by an independent trucking
    firm.  They do not carry stock in the store.
    Its like buying from a catolog.  I've had nothing but good luck
    from them.

    What do you put around the outside of your above-ground pool?
    
    I want to dress up around the outside wall with something that won't
    need mowing. I was going to use pea stone, but a neighbor said that
    it gets picked up on the kids' feet and gets into the pool. Then I
    thought of marble chips, but someone else said that any kind of stone
    would be bad for the wall. Anybody know anything about this. Abybody
    use bark chips for this job?

	Seems like almost ANYTHING will get picked up by the kids feet,
	rocks, woodchips, dogs, cats, etc...
	
	Scott.

    RE: .25
    
    I have a 24' circular above-ground pool, with a deck around it.
    
    Beneath the deck, I have marble chips.  It looks nice and seems
    to work well.  The only problem is raking leaves, when I rake a
    lot of marble chips as well.  Interestingly enough, the chips seem
    to appeal as food for squirrels.  I guess when chlorinated water
    gets splashed on the chips, it adds flavor.  I found about three
    dozen chips near the base of a tree frequented by squirrels. :-)
    
    Bo

    I have a couple of questions for now.  What do you call the sand 
    that you put in the pool before the liner, where do you get it,
    roughly how much does it cost?
    When I level the ground off, one side will be about 2 feet below
    ground level.  Should I leave a gap between the pool and ground
    and fill it in with something (i.e. stone)?
    
    Chris D.

RE:<<< Note 1221.27 by OAFIN::KAUFMANN "Coram Deo" >>>
    
    >>  I found about three dozen chips near the base of a tree frequented 
    >>  by squirrels. :-)
    
    Maybe your kids are throwing them at the squirrels?

    George

    	Use stone dust for the base of the pool. It costs $7/ton at
    Hudson Sand and Gravel in Hudson, NH. This is not delivered though,
    I'm not sure if they deliver. After the stone dust is down and level,
    you may want to put down peat moss before the liner is installed.
    It makes for a cushiony bottom.

    $7.00 a ton!!  How much will I need for an 18' round??
    
    Chris D.

      I'm in the process of putting in a 18' round and am also looking
    down the road to what I can put in the 15" deep opening I have between
    the pool and the existing grade. I hit lots of rocks in the process
    but I'm finally level to 1/4". But heres some of the obstacles and
    info that I've come accross for all those DIY pool installers.
    To answer some of your questions:
    
    You can use Stone Dust, Pre-washed sand, or sifted earth. Stone
    Dust is prefered by most contractors because it packs real well
    when a little water is added to it. It forms a solid barrier so
    that the liner doesn't make its way under the pool side. I picked
    up 2 ton of stone dust at Brox in Dracut, it costs $6.00 a ton.
    I have a utility trailer that can handle a little over a ton so
    I made two trips. Not bad for $12.00 and change. The installation
    instructions that I have recommend the following amount for round
    pools: 
    
        12 x 48 3/4 yards
        15 x 48 1 yard
        18 x 48 2 3/4 yards
        21 x 48 2 1/4 yards
        24 x 48 2 1/2 yards
        27 x 48 3 1/4 yards
    
    Note : between 18 to 24 there is some difference, i'm not sure if
           its a typo. I Have 3 yards for my 18' round.
                                         
     The ground is the most important part of the preparation of the
    pool site. Pick a decent level area, I make llife a lot easier,
    and then clear an area using the following formula :
             Clearance Radius = 1/2 pool diameter + 6"
    
     Most pools must have a vertical distance of 3' from the top of
    the pool to the adjjoining grade and the adjoiing grade must remain
    level for a distance of 2' away from the pool. I know 2' ? I left
    1' I don't have room for 2' or want to fill 2' worth of opening
    but I have sloped the grade so it doesn't wash in later.
    
     My installation instructions also recommended a ground and wall
    sheild for the pool. It can be either .4 or .5 mil. The ground sheild
    goes on the grouond after leveling. This will protect you pool liner
    and metal parts against chemical reactions from the ground soil.
    The wall guard is taped on the inside of the pool wall 12" up from
    the ground and smoothed out on the ground 12" from the wall. The
    stone dust is then shaped 8" up from the ground and 8" away from
    the wall in a curve.
                                  
     I would think before filling the opening between the grade and
    the pool that I would place some plastic up the side of the pool
    and then fill with the desired material. I like the idea of bark
    mulch its light enough not to put pressure on the wall but still
    fill the opening and look nice, any other ideas out there.
    
     

    re: .34  I most have bought the same pool 'cause I have the same
    instructions you have.  Looking at the chart, I would guess that
    the 18' x 48" should say 1 3/4 yards of stone dust.  You said you
    used 3 yards.  Did that leave you a layer to cover the whole bottom
    and how deep?  I want to put at 2 to 3 inches of stone dust on the
    bottom just to help level and keep any foreign objects away from
    the liner.
    
    Chris D.

    
    RE: .35 I have the Shadowwood from Swim and Play Inc.. Yea they
    botched up on the instructions. Anyway my utility trailer holds 
    3 yrds of Hemlock mulch, so I'd say that I had about 2 1/2 Yards
    between the two trips. It came to 2 tons on the money, 1 ton each
    time. After I had the slope up the side of the wall I had enough
    in the center of the pool to spread it around to about a 1"to 2"
    depth, and then I leveled that also. At the end I had one wheelbarrow
    full of stone dust left. A few tips that I got from watching a few
    pool installers in the area do this. 1) use a rubber padded trowel,
    the kind you use to press grout in betweeen cermamic tiles. and
    2) wet the stone dust and then re-tamp it before you put the liner
    in, it keeps the stone dust conditioned while you work the liner
    into place. 
    
      When putting the bolts in the seam DON'T use a socket Wrench,
    or OVER-TIGHTEN, the bolts will snap, I had to replace 2 that did
    this, and start bolting from the bottom to the top of the seam.
    
     Above all make sure that you're level to within 1" like they tell
    you. I had te whole area level to under 1/4" and after the sides
    went up and the liner went in I'm level to 1" now, by the water
    level in the pool up the side of the wall. Not sure how it happened
    but I'm glad I had done that initial leveling right.
    
    Ed
    

    I heard what sounds like a good "trick of the trade" the other day.
    Once you get the liner in as smooth as you can get it, block up
    the skimmer opening on the outside of the pool wall and stick the
    inlet hose from a vaccum cleaner in the return opening.  When you
    turn on the vaccum cleaner, it will draw out the air and flatten
    out the bottom and the sides.  Sounds like it's worth a try.  Anyone
    ever try this??
    
    Chris D.

    In case anyones interested, I just found out that Brox's stone dust
    is $6.00/ton and Keating's is $5.00/ton.  Both places are in Dracut.
    
    Chris D.

    Does anyone have any experiance (GOOD/BAD) with Fanta-Sea pools?
    I'm interested in service,longevity,maintenance.
    Thanks in advance,
    Ray

    My father-in-law said that he would take me to Keating's for the
    stone dust.  He has a 1/4 ton pickup.  While we were there, he kept
    waving the guy on in the front end loader to keep dumping.  I kept
    saying it looked like enough.  Well, we ended up with 2.7 tons of
    stone dust in his truck.  we were sweating it out all the way home.
    It was funny after we made it.
    
    Chris D.

    	re -1
    
    	Were the front wheels of the pickup touching the ground at any
    time??????  I've had a little over a ton in mine and the front end
    was kinda light.
    
    Keith

    re: .41   Just barely.  Whenever I saw the back tires, I figured
    we'de never make it home.  There must have been 1/2 inch between
    the rim and the road.  The bolt for the bottom mounted spare tire
    left marks all the way home.  I kept telling him it looked like
    enough and he kept waving the guy on for more.  At least we only
    had to make one trip :^)
    
    Chris D.

<    left marks all the way home.  I kept telling him it looked like
<    enough and he kept waving the guy on for more.  At least we only
<    had to make one trip :^)
    
  Good thing the cops didn't catch him, being OVERLOADED relative to the
registered gross weight of the truck can get mighty expensive.  I believe in
Mass. the fine is $5 for every pound over your registered GVW.  I would
believe a 1/4 ton pickup MIGHT be resistered for 5000 lb and you claim his
payload was more than that.  Good Grief!!!!!

Al

    re: -1  I was worried about the tires, the suspension, and the cops.
    Luckily we had no problem with any of them.
    
    Chris D.

         I bought the Baquacil but unfortunately the store did not have
    the Baquacil pool care guide booklet.  If anyone has one that they
    could copy for me I'd appreciate it very much. Send me mail if you
    can.
         Is there a special test kit that I need for the Baquacil??
        
         Thanks in advance,
         Chris D.

    Anyone know of an authorized dealer for Baquacil in the Lowell, MA 
    area other than Roger's Pool?  
    
    Chris D.
    
    

                       Bacquacil in New Hampshire.....


	Seasonal Specialty Store
	Simoneau Plaza (off Main Street, by Channel Hardware)
	Nashua, N.H.

	603.880.8471



	Bemister's Pools & Spas
	57-61 South Broadway (Rt 28, north of Rockingham park)
	Salem, N.H.

	603.898.9698


fyi - for reference see note 2392.43 +/- for comments on Bacquacil

Well, I got 'er opened up yesterday. Actually about two to three weeks late
for me. I usually do it the first or second weekend in April as soon as the
ice is off  the cover. Ice was late this year and I was busy, so ....

Spent a few hours earlier last week screening leaves and debris off the
cover and spent Friday evening and part of Saturday afternoon pumping the water
off the cover and back into the pool. I was expecting help on Sunday to
actually pull the cover off, but they were unable to make it at the last
minute, so about 2:30 I went out and started dragging the sucker off. The
only bad part about doing this alone is when the remaining water and debris
which was in the center of the cover gathers up in a wad that's too heavy
to lift out. Luckily when I got to that point I was able to lower the
submersible into the reservoir and empty out the weight. They I dragged the
rest of the cover off and onto the lawn.

I found the water kinda greenish but clear enough to see bottom. Some debris
on the bottom but nothing big other than dead moles and frogs that snuck
under the edge of the cover after closing last September (i.e no acorns or
leaves). Emptied the styrofoam from the skimmer and got the filter going
(after a bit of a scare - first application of power produced a hum rather
than a whir but a quick dissassembly and hand turn of the impeller fixed
that). Added 10 lbs of SOCK-IT and some PH-Plus and let the filter run
for about 5-6 hours. Turned it back on this AM (water same color) when I
left for work and by the time I got home tonight I had a crystal clear
pool. Vacuumed the accumulated crud off the bottom and it's beginning
to look like summer! I turned on the circulating heater this morning
as well and I actually gained about 4 degrees today, as well - from 48
at opening yesterday to 52 at 6PM today.

I'm impressed.

-Jack

    Mr. Mod, feel free to move this note if there's a better note...
    
    I just picked up parts of a pool from my brother-in-law's father.  I
    say "parts" because he was looking for replacement items and ended up
    buying a new pool.  What I've got, all in very good condition, is for
    a 27' round pool.  All posts, the track, pump, etc.  What I need is a 
    liner, and the wall.  That's it, excluding chemicals.  I figured the
    toatl cost would be around $175 for the liner and another $250-300 for 
    the wall.  (Just the cheapie...I plan on selling the house in 3-5
    years).
    
    Anyway, I called NAMCO in NH to get the replacement $$ and the quotes
    tell me I'm better off buying a new pool...$160 for the liner, but 
    $750 for the wall??  Is this right?  Before I get in too deep, I'd like
    to know if these are "good" prices, or just lines to get me to buy new.
    
    Thanx in advance.
    
    Gene
    

    
    When deasling with NAMCO, I find it helpful to assume that everyone
    has the IQ of spaghetti-o's. This means you should explain things
    v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, present the same questions to at least three
    different people and compare answers.
    
    They may have assumed that by "wall", you meant everything but the
    liner, filter and pump. From your note, I assume you mean just the
    corrugated sheet metal skin that's held in place by all the other
    hardware you already have. If that's true, $750 sounds very high, and
    you may want to try explaining your situation again (remember the IQ tip
    above).
    
    I got a complete parts list and exploded assembly diagrams with my
    pool. Ask your in-law for same; he may have enough information on hand
    to deal directly with the manufacturer. If he doesn't have the
    paperwork, ask NAMCO for manufacturer info (again, keep thinking
    "spaghetti-0's").
    
    Depending on the age of the original pool, and whatever happened to the
    wall, you might also keep in mind that many parts carry a 10-year-or-longer 
    pro-rata warranty. Hey, you might save enough to cover the shipping.
    
    NAMCO is really geared to selling pools. ("I need a pail of chlorine
    tabs." "Sure thing - can I interest you in a pool with that?") I'd be
    shocked if their first answer was anything else.
    

    Re .30
    
    A couple of other places to try...Recreation World on Route 9, Natick
    (in same shopping center as Highland - across from Natick Mall) - they
    have always been willing to take the time to look out back for odd
    parts and seem to specialize more in replacement parts.  Another place
    (I can't believe I'm saying this:^) is Sears...check their summer 
    catalog or call their Service Dept. in Westboro.
    
    ep

re: .32
>is Sears...check their summer 
>    catalog or call their Service Dept. in Westboro.

	If your refering to the service department on RT 9 next to Somerville
Lumber; it gone..... A new office park building is going up there.

    If its a sears pool most sears stores have parts department. if not go
to the parts department anyway and order a wall for a pool that they sell that
looks like the pool you got.

			Bill

    I've had goo luvk with NAMCO AND Recreation World...
    
    RE .33 ...The Sears Service dept has moved further down the road..Drive
    past old location(new Mr. Build HQ/Somerville lumber) and go to second
    light(at Duddie Ford). Take right at Duddies...From here I can't
    remember if it's right or left..but it's on Otis St..And it's Northboro
    now...
    
    							john

    Well, after a few more calls I found out, from virtually everyone I
    talked to, that buying the parts is more expensive, if I could find
    the parts.  A liner was easy, around $250-300 for a 25 guage virgin
    vinyl liner.  A wall, however....the cheapest $$ was $450,  and I 
    would have to measure the track to get the exact size.  If one could be
    ordered, $450.  I guess that there is no industry standard in the pool
    business, thus a 27' wall could actually be 26' 9" to 27' 3", and any
    measurement in between.  Unless I knew the manufacturer of the wall, I
    have to measure each track first.  Besides that, nobody offered a
    guarantee on the wall.
    
    So, for the same price, I'll lose 3' and go with a new 24'.
    

    Another question on pools....
    
    Before calling and being baffled, how about some advice on pools,
    specifically the walls.  In looking in the paper and ads, etc., I
    see various types....extruded aluminum, dual-clad vinyl, hot-dip
    galvanized steel, copper-zinc clad, etc., etc.
    
    What's best for the money??  (If it matters, warrantied for 15 years
    is plenty.  We don't plan on staying in the house much longer than
    5 more years).
    
    Thanx again.
    

    If you're looking at a NAMCO pool ad, let me give you some advice.
    There are two that I know of, one in Billerica, and one in Hudson, N.H.
    Don't go to the Billerica one.  I'f you don't go in there to purchase
    the most expensive pool they have, then don't expect any service from
    them.  Hudson, N.H., on the other hand, had very helpful people and
    couldn't believe it when I told them why we drove all the ways up there
    when there was one in our own town (I live in Billerica).
    
    Chris D.

    
    What do you do at the deck/pool interface (you know, where the deck
    meets the pool)? Butt the deck up against the pool wall? Level with the
    top of the wall, above, below? Any spacing? Problems changing liner?
    Stress on pool wall from people sitting on deck?
    

    Bill,
    
    	The way I've always seen them is ... the top of the deck about 18
    inches lower than the top of the pool (some lower).  If you were
    planning on diving from the deck, you'd need to make it at least as
    high as the top of the pool and maybe a tad higher so you don't smack
    your toes on the top/edge of the pool.  
    
    Which leaves the question of 'How close to the pool'.  If you're diving
    from the deck, you probably want it as close to the pool as possible
    (again for your toes).  If it's just to sit on, I'd leave a few good
    inches between the pool and deck for a few reasons.
    
    - It will give the pool room to expand when it freezes in the winter
    - It won't trap water and rot the deck
    - It won't trap water and rust the pool walls
    - There's no real reason to have it flush against it 
    - It will allow room for the deck to 'settle'
    - It gives you a tad more 'room for error' (ie it won't be as
      noticeable) when forming the edge of the deck that meets the pool
    
    As far as changing the liner - never actually heard of anyone replacing
    just the liner. (though I'm SURE it's been done)  You'd probably need
    to consider how the liner is attached to the sides/top of the pool wall
    to determine how much of an impact the abutting deck would have.  Of
    the pools that I've seen, the liner is attached only to the topmost of
    the pool walls, so if you could get to the top ~8 inches of the pool
    wall, it shouldn't be a big deal.
    
    My personal preference is to have the deck lower than the pool.  It
    also will stop people from 'walking in' (pushed!) accidentally.  But
    some decks are made only for diving/jumping, and those are the ones
    that are a bit higher than the pool (THAT would be a problem to change
    the liner).  Sooooooooooo - what are you using the deck FOR??
    
    pw  

    
    >>  Sooooooooooo - what are you using the deck FOR??
    
    Mostly access to the pool, with a couple of chairs to sit and watch the
    kids.
    
    If you build the deck 18" below the pool wall, does that make it
    awkward to get in and out? What kind of a ladder?
    

    I have been reading the last few replys.  I don't have an answer
    for you, but a point that I haven't seen mentioned.
    How do you plan on winterizing (don't know if that is the correct
    term) your pool? Should some space be left for the pool cover if
    you do cover it ?
    
    Just a point I think you should consider before you buildyour deck.
    
    Dave
    

    re .6
    
    When I was growing up, ours deck was about 20 inches below the top of
    the pool.  We used the ladder that came with the pool (step ladder
    type), and my dad had cut an opening in the deck, large enough to pass
    the bottom of the ladder through.  Of course this made it difficult to
    take the ladder in and out often, but we didn't find a big need for
    that.
    
    re .7 - Winterizing is a very good point.  Typically there is a cable
    that goes around the outer, upper edge of the pool, and is weaved
    through the edge of the pool cover.  This cable is usually very snug,
    (but not too tight) when the pool is thawed.  Then there is usually a 
    'float' (they sell inflatable plastic bubbles, or we used about 8 milk 
    jugs on a string) which is tied at opposite sides of the pool, UNDER
    the cover.  The whole thing is engineered against itself - 
    
    The pool water freezes, which forces the milk cartons or bubble to be 
    'raised' (on top of the ice), which increases the tension on the rope
    going across the pool, as well as on the  cover, which increases the
    tension on the cable going around the edge of the pool, which stops the
    sides of the pool from simply collapsing under the stress of the ice
    (the pressure the ice creates is outward, not necessarily UPward, which
    is why you need to protect the sides).
    
    So anyway, to get back to the point .... you DEFINITELY need to get to
    the upper edges of the pool to rig this whole thing up, and it's
    particularly important in the spring so that you can easily remove the
    cover without dumping the debris that's been caught in the cover, back
    into your pool.  
    
    I grew up with a pool/deck setup like this, and we had a blast with it. 
    If your pool has the typical 6-8 inch edge along the top, the kids will
    have fun sitting on it/pushing each other in. 
    
    Anymore questions/comments/concerns??
    
    Patty 

    I was on a deck , adjacent to a brand new pool last night......
    Deck was 10 to 12 inches above the pool walls. The 2x8's that made up
    the joists were about 4 to 8 inches away from the pool walls (bottom
    of the 2x8 was narly flush w/ the top of the pool wall,). A built-in-
    pool type ladder , was mounter onto 2 pieces of 2x8 , which were lag
    bolted onto the deck. The set up was fabulous. I had a 5 and 2 year old
    there for 4 hours. Sure the risk of falling in is everpresent, but so
    is it if the dech is lower that the walls also. I would *defenitly*
    opt for decking above the pool.

    
    Well, I built my deck last week (actually 99%, but a couple of short
    evenings when the weather clears should finish it up). Some of the
    replies to my initial question suprised me, because I don't think I'd
    ever seen a deck for an above-ground pool that wasn't built so it was
    somewhere near flush with the top of the pool. At least that's the way
    all the decks in my neighborhood are built. Then again, I was never
    crazy about the looks of those decks. So the half-high replies (18" or so
    below the pool wall) got me thinking, and for that I'm eternally
    grateful.                                                                 
    
    I have a 15x25 oval, which has just shy of 16' of straight wall on the
    sides, so my deck is 12' by 16'. I built it 18" below the top of the
    pool wall, so it varies from 2' to 2.5' off the ground. This height was
    just right to clear the side supports on an oval pool. There are three
    steps of 8" rise up from the grass. The deck "floats" on two doubled
    2x8 beams, and all ground supports are recessed 18" from the edges. It's
    fenced on three sides at the standard height, with a locking gate at the
    steps. I used 5/4x6 bull-nosed decking, fastened with decking screws.
    
    For pool access, I'm going to build a 2' by 5' platform flush with the
    top of the pool wall, with one step running the 5' length. The step and
    the platform will be covered with outdoor carpet. The original ladder
    will be cut down and fastened non-permanently to the platform. I may
    wind up bolting the platform to the deck, but I'm going to start with
    it just sitting there, so I can nudge it right up to the pool in season
    and push it out of the way for winterizing. The platform is sized to
    allow a couple of people to sit and dangle their legs in the water, and
    access the pool via the ladder, while leaving enough room on the deck
    for a set of patio furniture and a good amount of open space.
    
    The beauty of the half-high deck is that it adds some vertical interest
    to my flat back yard, and lets me sit comfortably while supervising the
    antics in the pool, without looking like a mutant daddy-long-legs (which
    is my chief objection to most full-height decks I've seen).
    
    By the way, after reading some other deck notes concerning materials, I
    narrowed my search down to Wickes and Somerville, both in Acton. When
    I got to Somerville a week ago Saturday, its parking lot was almost
    full, and it was a zoo! Wickes' was almost empty. But:
    
    	o  Wickes regular prices beat Somervilles "sale" prices, overall
           and on most individual items. (It's also interesting to note
           that by laying out my own plans and buying the materials
    	   according to my own list, I would have paid $720 at Somerville,
    	   while they wanted $849 for a comparable "kit"; I actually paid
    	   $700 at Wickes.)
    
    	o  The service was great, and the people were very helpful;
    
        o  Wickes was advertising "extra-treated" wood; evidently Wolman
           adds a water repellent to the normal CCA treatment. Rain water
           indeed beads up, with no added treatment on my part. Somerville
    	   wasn't advertising this.
    
    	o  The quality of the wood was excellent -- my next-door neighbor,
           who is in the construction industry, agreed. Out of the whole
           batch, I got one deck board with a knot hole, and three 2x4s
           with rough edges, that I wouldn't use in visible areas; they're
           all going into the platform. And I didn't pick it.
    
    	o  The wood was delivered to Townsend about three hours after I
           left the store; I believe Somerville only delivers by grographic
           location on certain days.
    
    So I definitely recommend Wickes for this type of material.
    

    I tried the duct tape last year.  It will loosen over the winter and
    come off in the spring.

    
    If your near a NAMCO. Whe I went in to pick up some chemicals they had
    a patch kit made to be used on the woven type covers that they sell. 
    Price looked to be around $2-3.
    
    

    
    re: .10
    
    What a concept !! Build the deck just above the sidewall supports !
    
    I'm going to build my deck in the spring, I've been struggling with
    plans on how to build the thing, how I would access the filter and
    in-wall skimmer . if I build the deck below the wall with a platform
    level with the top rail as in .10, the skimmer would be accessable
    from the lower deck level and the filter could be set off to the
    side under the higher platform, hard to explain but I can see it
    in my mind.... Other wise I would have to build the deck over the
    filter and skimmer making it hard to get to .... I'm psyched now !!
    Can't wait until spring !
    
    Randy
    

re: .16

Well, you were half right. Exactly half of the patches came loose as you
predicted while the other half stayed tight. :^)

re: .17

I think I'll try the Namco kit this next fall.

Although, I must admit that even with the loose/missing patches, the pool
doesn't seem to suffer a whole lot over the winter.

I opened up this weekend (there were still a few "cubes" floating on the
cover but I was anxious). Pumped the cover off and cleared off debris
on Saturday PM and Sunday AM. Cover was off by about 3 Sunday and by
5 the pump was running with a fresh charge. Water - green, murky and 42
degrees. With the help of a warm night, and a hot (80 degree) day on Monday
and the solar pipe, the temp was up to 48 by Monday evening, and the water
had completely cleared. Last night when I got home it read 52 (another warm
day). I expect it dropped some last night as our air temp was only 40 this
AM at 6.

Do I hold the corporate record for early openings in the Northeast?

-Jack

    RE: .18, 40 degree pool water, YUCH! Down here in Dallas, my pool temp
    was 74 this week and swimable. I knew there was a reason for leaving
    NH.
    
    Eric

    Actually, if this year is like last, the algae will not be here at all.
    Water stayed clear all year, even when the water temp was 92F.
    
    Eric

    My pool cover ripped wide open this winter so what I now have is green
    water and half a cover sitting on top of the water.  I am considering
    opening the pool early since the water will take more time to clean.
    Any suggestions for opening a particularly dirty pool?  I also have
    leaves, etc.

    I just opened mine and it get's kinda dirty since I use a mesh pool
    cover.  What we do in Delaware is run the filter for 24 hours and then
    have it tested.  I needed to increase the alkalinity (sp?) and then
    added shock followed by algecide.  You will have to run the filter
    continously until the water becomes clear (re-shock if necessary).  It
    took about 3 days for mine.  It really isn't as bad as some people make
    it out.  There must be some contest for the guy who has the shortest
    opening.  Good luck, Rob.

    re .22
    
    First, NUKE IT TILL IT GLOWS!!!!  KILL KILL KILL all those nasty
    algaes.  Run the filter, which will probably need frequent flushes. 
    When my pool gets that bad, I usually have to dump the DE after only a
    few HOURS of running.  Water clarifier will help to make the dead
    algaes come out of solution and sink to the bottom.  There they can be
    vaccumed up, with more frequent filter flushing.  Get that pool running
    as soon as possible.  It will get worse fast with the warmer, longer
    days.
    
    Happy Hunting,
    
    Steve

re .24:

Where do you get a small nuclear device suitable for killing algae in
a swimming pool?  I tried Spags, but they weren't near the air shredders.

    The French make a delightful little tactical nuke designed to wipe out
    small apartment complexes.  These work well on swimming pools.  They
    are not actually legal for sale, but can be obtained on street corners
    in any major city.  Spags won't carry them, since they are not heavily
    discounted.
    
    In a pinch, you can use mega-doses of chlorine.  You will probably have
    some algae growing on the sides of the pool which won't cooperate.  I
    find the best way to sanction those buggers is to turn off the pump,
    wait for the water to become absolutely still, and carefully pour black
    algecide right along the walls of the pool.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    The trick that I follow that *always* works, (although no always on the
    first try) is to:
    
    	1.) take sample of pool water
    	2.) bring sample to pool supplies dealer for analysis
    	3.) do what he says.  ;-)
    
    You may end up buying a few more chemicals than you might think you
    really need, but you should end up with crystal clear water and clean
    sides and bottom with minimal trouble through the season if you follow
    these tips.

    I am trying something new this year. I know my pool is very dirty and
    two neighbors trees with "propellers" and an apple tree full of white
    flowers are blowing around. So I reached under the cover and pulled out
    the freeze plugs and the gizmo and super chlorinated the pool and
    started it up. I will back wash it every day. Is there anything else I
    should do with the cover still on? Will the chlorine be eaten up faster
    with the cover on? I also hide my solor cover under my solid cover.
    The solor cover is too short (I don't know why) so I hate to take off
    the top cover.

    Have you put an algicide in the water?  The chlorine should last longer
    with the pool cover on due to you blocking out the sun's rays, however
    it will not warm up as fast.  For it to warm up you should just have
    the solar cover on, that way the sun can penetrate and let you solar
    cover do its job.  If you are not vaccuuming the the bottom of your
    pool there is no need to run your pump that much cause with the cover
    it won't be able to skim the surface and it won't be buying you that
    much verses the cost of the electricity.  At some point you should make 
    a move to open the pool for full operation and your normal routine of
    cleaning.  Otherwise just add some algicide if you already haven't.
    
    Russ

    I nuked my pool last fall before closing... It paid off, just opened it
    last night.... It was as clear and clean as it was when I closed it...
    
    I just pulled the cover off, topped it off, cranked up the filter  and
    jumped in!!
    
    
    

    Took your advice, (.29) and took off the cover last night. The water
    was clear as a bell but the bottom was quite dirty. I started vacuuming
    with the filter on waste, (boy does the water go down fast that way)
    but at least it did not go through the filter. The solor cover that I
    had left on all winter for the last few years has bit the dust. All the
    bubbles are falling apart and they were all floating around. This
    morning I found my skimmer basket full of them and could not get the
    basket up without shutting off the pump. Of course as soon as I shut it
    off all the crap came rushing up along with a few field mice that can't
    swim. :-)

    Just a tip, if you don't want to be buying a new solar cover every two
    years or so I reccommend not putting it on when you close your pool for
    the season.  However putting some kind of air pillow in the center is
    good to keep the presure off the sides/lining of your pool.  You will
    want to anchor it some how to keep it from moving while you put your
    cover in place.
    
    Russ

    re .32
    
    In regards to the air pillow you are talking about an above ground pool
    correct? 
    
    
    

    Something strange happened this year.  I took off the pool cover, threw
    in the garden hose to raise the level to where it should be, went over
    and looked in, and the pool is LOADED with what looks like cotton
    fibers.  They are floating all thru the water, stuck to the side, and
    bottom.  What is all this stuff??  After just 2 hours the basket for
    the filter was almost completely clogged with it.
    
    Chris D.
    
    P.S. I use Baquacil, not chlorine

When my sister's pool was re-lined with fiberglass (in-ground, originally
cement lined but it cracked) cotton like fibers were filling the filters for
weeks.

bjm

    I've found out since my note that this will sometimes happen with
    Baquacil when the water gets dirty and the filter's not running.  I
    couldn't put the pool cover on real good this past winter because of
    the side rails I put on, so more dirt than normal got in over the
    winter.  A vacuuming and cleaning out the basket about 4 times during
    the day seems to have taken care of it.  So, next winter the side rails
    come down before the cover goes on.
    
    Chris D.

    Hopefully the folks reading/writing this note can remember back to
    when they couldn't afford a 'real' pool and had to settle for one of
    those toy pools to keep the kids happy...:^)
    
    I recently purchased a 6'x15" kiddie pool for my son. With the warm
    weather we've had, he's been using it a lot. However, we only get 
    approx 2 days use out of it before the water starts looking scummy. We
    then have to empty it, rinse it off and refill it. I don't mind the
    effort or time that it takes, but at 200 gallons a pop, I'd like to 
    reduce water consumption by finding a way to keep the water clear(er). 
    Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance...
    

Places like Child world sell packets of kiddie pool chlorine tablets.
These help extend the water life (as long as you don't mind the chemicals)
and kill the bacteria. To make it real effective though, we went out and
got ourselves a plastic tarp (you know one of those blue heavy plastic
things you see drapped over stuff), and cover the pool when not in use.
Since the pool is in a sunny spot, covering it during the daylight hours
when not in use helps to stop/deter bacteria growth. We also clean the
pool regularly, removing grass and stuff from it. We also found that when you
do refill it you have to really clean down the sides and bottom to clean out
all the bacteria that did grow, so as to get a good life out of the next
poolful.

    I have an oval vinyl inground pool in Shrewsbury, which was losing water
    two years ago. Also water was getting between the liner and the outer
    wall. This was lifting the liner from the floor in certain areas.
    I called Wayne Pool to get it fixed. He first pumped the water
    between the liner and the wall and then air tested the outlets. He found 
    that one of the outlet (the one that is generally two feet under the
    water) is leaking which he plugged that and told me that the remaining
    outlet would be sufficient. Then he closed the pool for the winter.
    	However, the pool still kept losing the water and so I didn't open the 
    pool last year. Now the water level is about two feet below the plugged 
    outlet ie water is about 4 feet below the skimmer and there is a lot of 
    water between the wall and the liner. However, the water level has not
    changed for some time but the liner is still intact at most of the places. 
    Also since water is much below then it should be the pool cover has
    lot of rain water which now has lots of mosquito. Also at certain
    areas, the pool cover touches the water in the pool, hence rain water
    and the pools water mingles at those areas. My questions are following:
    (1) Is there a chemical I can pour so the pool cover doesnot look as if 
    it is abandoned (ie kill all the mosquitos but not poisoned the 
    pool water. Would it be ok if I dump some chlorine in it to get
    rid of mosquitos ? 
    (2) What is the best way to fix the pool. Since the water level has
    remained unchanged, is it fair to assume that the water leak is just
    about the equilibrium ? Or there may be leak in the pipe between the 
    inlet at the deep end of the pool and the filter. If that is so, I
    would only know only when I start the pump (ie open the pool).
    (3) Can anybody recommend me a good pool repairman in my area. I don't
    know who installed the pools because I bought the house. 
    (4) I am not interested in starting the pool this season but I would
    like to take some measures so I don't destroy the pool or the liner
    since I intend to start the pool next season. 
    (5) Also in the worst case, How much does a liner for 18'x36' pool cost
    including installment.
    (6) Any other suggestion that may be helpful to me
    Thanks
    Abhijit 
                                                      

    Since the level has stopped going down, the leak is above (or actually
    just at) the water level. If this level is just at or below an outlet
    opening, then the leak could be in the pipes, but if the level  continued 
    to drop on after the level went below the outlet, then the outlet's
    pipe is not the problem, and you probably have a tear in the liner.
    Now would be a good time to carefully examine the liner for leaks,
    since you know that the problem is just above the water level.
    
    Eric
    
    
    

    
    Haven't seen this anywhere so here's my question:
    
    About how much water loss is normal for a pool that is 20x40?  I've
    noticed a drop of aprox. 1/4 of an inch in a week.  The pool is
    in the sun most of the time.  This is my first season, since this
    overgrown bathtub came with the house we just bought. 
    
    Had a lot of troublr with the opening since it realy wasn't closed well
    by the previous owners.  So I'm just paranoid that somthing else is
    wrong.
    
    Thanks
    
    George C.
    

    That much could be evaporation if no rain occurred between the week.
    
    Eric

    I've lost an inch on a heavy use day.  1/4" isn't much.
    
    ed

    
    Old note but I do see the discussion of chemicals in here..
    
    After much shopping around in New England for an above the ground pool
    I settled on buying a Sharkland Pool at Seasonal Specialities located
    on Route 1 in Foxboro MA  just before the stadium.
    
    For service, follow through and quality I highly recommend them.
    
    Now to my question..
    
    They included in my package a product called Baqucil to be used rather
    then Chlorine.  Everything I've heard to date supports their claim that
    it is far better then Chlorine and requires less maintenance.
    
    Baqucil (sp) can be bought at Recreation World, Seasonal Pools in both
    Foxboro and N. Attleboro MA.   Does anyone know where it can be found
    for a cheaper price..?
    
    Thanks,
    Cal 

    Cal,
    
    I think there's more of a discussion in another topic.  But, to answer
    your question, I need to know how much you are paying.  From the places
    I've seen that carry it, there's little to no difference in price.  I
    think it's ~$28.00 for the Baquacil.  If you don't mind paying the
    money, you'll love this stuff.  I'll never go back to chlorine again.
    
    Chris D.

    
    Yep  28.99 for the Baquacil, 24.99 for the acidity booster.  Looks like
    I won't find it at Grossmans or B.J's for a while..
    
    Thanks.

    I use Baqucil in my pool. I usually buy my year supply at the beginning
    of the season (May) at Bemister (Salem and Hudson, NH) when they have a
    special "Buy 3, get the 4th free" - their normal price for the Baqucil is
    about $26 a 1/2 gal and the shock is about $13. Usually at the end of
    the season (mid/late Aug) they have the same special on for closing pools.
	
    Not too many places give discounts.... 
    
    I have used Baqucil for the past 7 years and love it.
    
    btw: NAMCO now sells another brand of chemicals that states that it
    is the "same contents as Baqucil" at 1/2 the cost of Baqucil. May try
    some algecide to see how it is and if okay, may use it next year.... 

    
      I will be closing on a house in 4 weeks that has a 20 X 40 IG . This
    pool hasn't been used or kept up in 2 years. The liner is bad and will 
    need replacing. The water level is below the skimmer however there is
    water in the skimmer. There's only a solar cover resting on the water.
    I have experince with above ground pools but none with IG.. Is there
    anything I should do before ice forms to avoid further damage this
    winter. I'm not concerned with the cover as the pool will have to be
    drained to replace the liner. I'm concerned with the pump and plumming
    to it.
    
     thanks..
    
    /gerry 

Wouldn't anything that was going to happen in the winter have happened last
winter?

    Are the winter freeze plugs in the return lines? If not, and the pool
    is not losing water, then lower the water level below the skimmer and
    return lines and blow out the lines and plug them up. I had to change
    my liner one year and didn't care how the water looked because I was
    draining it anyway. Every thing was fine in the spring and I had a new
    liner put in. 
    
    If leaves are a problem, and the former owner still has the cover put
    it on. It will making cleaning up a little easier next spring.
    
    No dead things to fish out. :-)

    Did anybody blow out the lines last year?
    
    ed

    
    
      I doubt that the lines were blown out last year.. How is this done..
     I hope they didn't crack from last winter. 

How about reversing the air flow of a shop vac?  Just musing, because I
do not have an inground pool, but I guess the idea is to get the residual
water out.  MM

    -1 is right. I happen to have an extra pump cover that the middle was
    cut out and a 1 1/2" piece of tubing was inserted. I just hook up my
    shop vac on reverse air flow and each return line starts spitting the
    water out. When it is all out I plug that one and move on to the next
    one. Then the gizmo goes in the skimmer. This has worked for me for 20
    odd years. The shop vac has to be strong enough to blow out the lines
    if there is water up to the return lines. If you drain down to below
    the return lines it will be easier to blow out the lines. I think you
    better hurry. It's getting late. :-)

    WIRING FOR AN ABOVE GROUND POOL
    -------------------------------
    
    What kind of wiring (14-2 or 12-2) and does it need to be in a
    conduit (indoor or underground wiring) should I be using to
    run the power out to my pool pump (10 amp)?  Also, I'm planning
    to add an outlet on the deck above the pool pump/filter.  Has
    anyone tackled this type of porject before?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jim
    

    	If you don't know what your doing on this, which you don't judging
    by the questions you are asking, I recommend you get a professional
    electrician (professional=insured, not necessarily licensed). You may
    need a building permit (depends on the town), and an electrical permit
    (in all of PRM). This is an area of extreme life threatening potential.
    The electrical feed has to be properly installed, grounded, and
    protected. 

    	If something fails, this is worse than a little bite. I CAN kill
    you, or your family, neighbors, ect...(big liability $$$$$$)

    	Cary

    When I put one in in NH, I had the following:
    
    1)A 20 amp feed to the pool, protected by a GFI (code requirement)
    
    2)The pump must be grounded (code requirement)
    
    3)The metal uprights of the pool had to be grounded with 6 ga. copper
      (code requirement)
    
    4)The plug on the pump power cord had to be a twistlock (code
      requirement)
    
    When in doubt, ask the building/electrical inspector. In Nashua, they
    had a pre-printed sheet that gave all the particulars.
    
    Eric
    

    If you're gonna run the service to your pool from a 15amp breaker
    use #14 wire (with ground). If you're gonna use a 20 amp breaker
    use #12 wire. I'd use the latter. The important thing is the service
    should be ground faulted! If you don't know what this is, take the 
    advise of the previous reply and have an electrician do it. As for the
    outlet, check the code for how close an outlet can be to a pool. I'm
    sure there is a restriction. But again, it is important that the outlet
    be ground faulted also.
    
    hope this helps
       /bd 

    for my inground pool the electrician bonded (clamped) a bare 12 ga
    copper wire to the rebar in the 4 corners. The corner rebar was driven
    into the ground xft by the pool installer. The grounding wire was then
    run to the pump.  I believe it is gounded at the pump outlet which
    then goes back to the house panel. All of the attachments around the pool 
    were also attached to the bonding wire. (handrails, divboard, slide etc)
    
    So one continuous loop with no breaks in the wire, goes around the pool
    to the pump.

I happened to be in Nashua's building code office the other day and picked
up their sheet on electrical requirements for swimming pools.  I've
reproduced it below, but you really need to check with your own community
for their requirements.

				Steve

1.  Use #8 solid copper wire for bonding.  Bond all metallic non-current
    carrying parts of a pool.

    a.  Pool reinforcing steel at four (4) corners.  (An above-ground pool
	does not have reinforcing rods, so bond to four (4) supports around
	the pool.
    b.  Metal conduits
    c.  Lighting fixtures
    d.  Ladders
    e.  Diving board
    f.  Circulating pump motor
    g.  Metal junction boxes.

2.  PVC or conduit must be used as a raceway for underwater lights and must
    terminate in a service panel board or remote panel board.  An insulated
    green wire (not smaller than #12 wire) must be used for the equipment
    ground - UNBROKEN.

3.  Underwater lights over 15 volts must have GFI protection.

4.  The circulating pump must have GFI protection -- 120 volts -- only if
    an outlet is used.

    a.  If an outlet is used to feed the circulating pump, a single outlet
	must be used and must be of the locking and grounding type.
    b.  If the circulating pump is hardwired, GFI protection is not required,
	but a switch shall be required.

5.  An outside outlet must be installed not less than 10' and not more than
    20' from the edge of the pool.  (The 20' rule may vary some.)  GFI
    protection is required for this outlet.

6.  The PVC or conduit used to feed the pump motor may be run to a WP junction
    box at the dwelling.  Romex may be used from that point on.

7.  For other than storable pools, the flexible cord shall not exceed 3 feet
    in length and shall have a copper equipment grounding conductor not 
    smaller than #12 wire.

8.  IN-GROUND METAL POOL: If the pool is of metal construction and suitably
    welded or bolted together, only one bonding connection needs to be made
    to the pool.

9.  Do not use Romex or UF cable in PVC or conduit.  Romex may be used inside
    single dwellings only.  [Then what does one use? - SBL]

10. Ground rods are not required by code for any pool.

11. READ THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE FOR FINER POINTS!

Item 9:  My guess is that instead of using romex or uf cable,  would use 
         appropriate guage single conductor cable (THHN).
         

>>Item 9:  My guess is that instead of using romex or uf cable,  would use 
>>         appropriate guage single conductor cable (THHN).

Two things - don't forget a seperate ground (green thhn, not bare copper wire)
and running 12 gauge romex or uf cable inside of 1/2" pvc is not an easy pull,
you would be lucky to get it through 10' at a time.

If you're using pvc, go with the thhn (stranded or solid - but stranded leaves
you with having to switch back to solid before connecting to screw terminals OR
buying more expensive devices - ie not code to put stranded wire under screw
terminal over certain gauge).

Brian J.

re -.1
If you're using pvc, go with the thhn (stranded or solid - but stranded leaves
you with having to switch back to solid before connecting to screw terminals OR
buying more expensive devices - ie not code to put stranded wire under screw
terminal over certain gauge).

	    Why do you have to go to solid wire?  If you twist the strands
	clockwise and them rap the wire around the screw clockwise, the
	wires will mount to the screw terminals fine.

					Tim

>>	    Why do you have to go to solid wire?  If you twist the strands
>>	clockwise and them rap the wire around the screw clockwise, the
>>	wires will mount to the screw terminals fine.

	I though it was a code ruling.  It may just apply to commercial - it
was several (almost 7) years ago when I recall doing this.

	If you are REAL careful, maybe you will get all the strands under the
screw - you may miss one/two that come loose and touch the grounded box and 
when you have a GFI protected line, that is all it takes to trip the thing.

	Anyone up to date on the code ?

bjm - who switches to HUBBLE SPEC GRADE recepticals in such cases

I'm in the process of installing an above ground pool. While I consider
myself a very good D.I.Y., I'm having a real difficult time with this pool.
Getting the wall around the bottom channel took me the better part of a day.
What is the trick? I  ended up drilling and securing the track (temporarily) to 
the patio blocks and only then was I able to pull the wall around. Unfortunately
the seam dosn't line up with a support point so I'll have to make some 
adjustments. Also, by the time I  muscled the wall around, the smooth leveled 
stone dust is no longer smooth or level.  

ARRRHHH

Ross

    
    Well, when I did mine, I put a 4x4 sheet of plywood in the middle and
    stood the rolled pool wall on that.  I then took the end and started
    putting it in the track as someone "fed" it to me by spinning the roll.
    Getting the two ends to meet perfectly on the first try is pure luck.
    
    Chris D.

	    When I helped put in a pool, we had 3 or 4 people putting
	the wall into the track and a few others keeping everything 
	from falling down untli we made the whole circuit.  Kinda like
	the 3 stooges plus a few more.

					Tim

    
    The only way to do it is to have lots of people around to guide the
    wall around the track. On a mildly windy day, multiply "lots" by three.
    
    What do you mean by "the seam dosn't line up with a support point"?
    

>    <<< Note 1221.54 by CROW::KILGORE "...57 channels, and nothin' on..." >>>
>
>    
>    The only way to do it is to have lots of people around to guide the
>    wall around the track. On a mildly windy day, multiply "lots" by three.
>    
>    What do you mean by "the seam dosn't line up with a support point"?
    


I guess it takes many hands to guide the wall around. I managed with just
myself and my wife. Not a fun job!
The bolt the wall together seam evidently is supposed to line up with a 
footing point. Mine didn't. Last evening, I move patio blocks and sections of 
track around so it would line up with a footing. Hopefully, weather permitting,
I will be able to finish off the installation this weekend.

Ross

    
.55> The bolt the wall together seam evidently is supposed to line up with a 
.55> footing point.
    
    I don't recall seeing that requirement when I put my pool up -- in fact,
    had I tried to do so, I believe the skimmer hole would have wound up
    behind a support.
    
    At any rate, there's virtually no vertical load on the wall at any
    point, so I don't think I'd sweat moving the seam to any particular
    point. As I recall, my main objective was to have the seam relatively
    out of sight, and position the skimmer so that most pump noise would be
    deflected away from the house.
    

    I think that it is important to make sure that the skimmer and outflow
    jet are positioned properly. For best circulation and skimming you will
    want the outflow jet to point *away* from the skimmer and *towards*
    the curving part of the pool. 
    	The reasons for this: Pointing the outflow in the direction of the
    skimmer might impair the skimming ability. Not a biggie but instead of
    emptying bugs from your skimmer basket you will spend more time
    vacuuming them off of the bottom. Pointing the outflow jet towards the
    curve of the pool allows for better circulation and skimming. If you do
    this your pool will develop a very gentle current that will help carry
    bugs and debis past the skimmer. Failure to do this will create areas
    where this debris will collect on the bottom. Again not a biggie but
    nice to aviod if possible.
    
    	My above ground pool had the motor and filter on the side of the
    pool nearest the house. Even when I had the windows open the noise
    never bothered me. The neighbor's pool motor however developed a bad
    bearing. The squeal drove me nuts. *His* motor was away from his house
    and towards mine...

    I recently had an inground pool installed. We have a pool slide.
    I would like to know how other with pool slides have the water hooked
    up. the pool guy suggested a garden hose back to the house. I would
    prefer to hook it up to the filter sys if possible to avoid running 
    water into the pool all day.
     
    Any suggestions?
    
    Steve
    

Does anyone make a liner for an oval above ground pool which has a "deep
end"? I mean, an inground pool with vinyl liner is essentially the same
as an above ground. Just less digging.

-Andre

    Our pool when I was growing up was like that, It was basically an
    above-ground pool, with an 8' "hopper" or deep end. The drop off to the
    deep end was very steep just under 90 degrees like 80 or so. The pool
    was also kinda "figure 8" shaped kinda like so:
    
    
    
    
                                           |  |
          |   |  |                    |           |
       |            |              |                 |
     |                 |  |  |  |                       |
    |                            |
                                 |                         |
    |                            |
                                 |         Deep end         |
     |
       |              | |  |  |  |                       |      
         |          |              |
           |  |  |                    |                |
                                         |         |
                                            |  |
    
    
    If you want I'll find out from my parents who made the liner for them, 
    its been a few years, and they live in NY, but maybe one company can 
    reccommend another. 
    
    
    Steve T.

I'm surprised this isn't offered as a "standard" option.

-Andre

    Check with Esther Williams Company. A friend got a deep-end liner just
    about 6 years ago from them. The pool was round w/ a deep-end like
    the previous description.
    
    "let your fingers do the walking..."
    
    Ben
    

    Hi
    Has anyone seen or bought the K-D "do it yourself" portable pool that
    SAM's is selling for about $1,500.  It's a 16ft by 4ft deep pool, that
    the maker claims can be set up in 1-2 hours.  After a 'summer of fun',
    you take the pool down and store in a 4"x2"x2" space for the winter.
    It looks like a heavy plastic liner that is held up by plastic poles
    which are threaded into the pool liner to provide support.  
    The video they have running at SAMS makes it look easy and fun.  Anyone
    out there tried one of these.  My wife and kids wanted me to buy one on
    the spot, but I at least want to check it out.
    
    thanks   Frank

    If you are near Pepperell, MA, you might take a look at the pool at the
    skydiving place on rt 111 near the NH line.  It looks like a giant (16
    - 20 ft diameter) inner tube with a bottom, like a little kids pool.  
    You just inflate it with air, and fill with water.  The sides are over
    3 feet high.  No idea as to cost. 
    
    Carl

    Saw these blow up types at the BIG E last fall.
    The sale's person stated he has his set up in his drive way (right).
    
    My wife had some info on them I'll ask if she still has it.
    
    Actually looks great just blow it up, holds 3 ft of water and is
    15 - 25 ft across.
    
    
    Don

    
    The one at the Pepperell airport was there all last season.
    Seemed to hold up OK to having folks sunning themselves on
    the rim, kids bouncing on it, folks being thrown in, etc.
    The outside is fat enough so that it helps to have a running
    start it you want to hop in without the benefit of the ladder.
    The filter/pump unit sits alongside and is connected to 110V AC
    via an expension cord.  Looks like it uses a standard outlet.
    You might want to be carefull about people getting near the
    extension cord though.  They drained and rolled it up for
    the winter and then inflated it again for the summer.  I would
    not that the groung around it gets muddy from the splashing,
    and you have a nice round spot of dead grass after you fold it
    up.  Visually it looks like someone left a great big tan
    innertube on your lawn.  The airport has a permit to operate
    a public pool so the thing must be subject to any local
    ordinances etc regarding pools despite its "temporary" nature.
    Hope this helps.

    Re: last few on 'portable' pools-
    
    Has anyone checked if you would need a fence around one (either per
    local ordanances or insurance)? 

ANYONE HAVE A CLUE WHAT ONE OF THOSE GOES FOR?

    
    These sound like the pools that I saw on RTE 1 in Danvers, MA.
    Those were being made by the same company that made the rubber boats
    for Jaque Cousteau ( sp ? ) Really neat. Blow'em up, fill'em up, and
    away you go.
    

    I am moving out of a house that I am renting with an in-ground pool
    (20x40).  It was open when I moved in so the landlord wants it open
    when I leave. The problem is that I can't afford to have it done
    professioally and have no idea what I am doing.  Can anyone help me
    out with explicit directions, ie. Step 1.  I need something that I 
    can follow easily.  
    
    It was closed professionally last fall.  As I said it is a 20X40 IG
    pool.  We have a DE filter and an in-line cholrinator.
    
    Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Eileen
    
    

    Can't help with the opening, but I  would think the landlord would be
    responsible for the opening/closing, unless it was somehow specified
    in the lease.  If not done right I would think you could screw some
    things up.  Wouldn't think the landlord would want to risk this
    with having renters do it...   
    
    
    Steve

We recently moved into a house with a pool and had no idea what we were 
doing.  We took a sample of the water down to our local pool center and 
they analyzed it for free and produced a written report that stated what 
chemicals should be added, how much to add, in what order to add them and 
what length of time to allow between chemicals.

I think that any dealer that sell Baquil(sp?) products has the set-up to do 
this free analysis.

Hope this helps,

Geoff

    I'm looking for someone to install a 24' above
    ground pool at a reasonable rate.  
    
    Can anyone recommend someone, either a contractor
    or someone looking for part time work?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Donna

    location????

    Oops, sorry -  location is Grafton, MA.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Donna

    Steve Knipe, he lives in Paxton and use to install them for a living.
    He did one for my brother and it came out great. He works night so he
    can get it done fairly quick. 755-2461

    
    Help for new pool owners..
    
    This is the first season for an above ground 27 foot round pool..
    
    We drained the water just below the skimmer and put a cover on it.. 
    
    the filter is in the cellar.
    
    No chemicals were added, my husband just drained the water, put a 
    pillow in the middle (tied to either side of the pool) and put 
    the cover on, and jugs of water around the pool hanging from the cover
    
    My Question:   Do you have to add chemicls?? 
                   Is one inch below the skimmer opening enough??
      
    The water is a lovely color green!!  yuk!

    
    
       I am not the expert some may be.  In fact, my wife is the one who
    really closes our above ground for winter.  
    
    I know she spends considerable time in closing the pool.  She brings a 
    sample of the water to the pool place prior to closing.  The make their
    reccomendations on what has to be done for closing.  I know she adds
    some chemicals and prior to that empties to certain level and vacums
    it.  I do also remember that when we have opened it the last two years
    there was not a whole lot to do other than refill the water, shock it
    and jump in. 
    
    It seems a shame that you may have to remove the cover and do some of
    the work all over again.
    
    Hope this help!
    
    Bob

    I just closed our above-ground pool this past weekend, and it's
    my 9th time doing it - kind of on auto-pilot for this event...
    Anyway, the key here is to close the pool with the water perfectly
    clear when you put the cover on it, and add the proper winterizing
    chemicals to keep it clear thru the winter, so when you remove the
    cover in the spring it's still clear and you start all over again.
    Since your water is already green, it'll be worse in the spring,
    especially if you add no chemicals.  The proper method of getting
    rid of algea (the green stuff) is to chlorinate the heck out of the
    water to kill the algea, add algecide to prevent it from coming 
    back, and the final most important point is to run the filter to 
    remove the dead algea from the water.  Since you've already closed
    the pool and drained the water to below the skimmer, you can't
    realistically do the filter part unless you add water back in.  The
    best you can do is dump large amounts of cholrine and algecide into
    the water to help it thru the winter, and then work on stabilizing
    it back in the spring.  I kept our pump running regularly on a timer
    up until I closed it, adding chlorine just as I would during the
    summer.  It was clear as a bell when I closed it, just a tad cold.  :-0
    
    As for the level of the water, draining it 3-4 inches below the skimmer
    is the recommended method, given the raising of the level when the
    pool water freezes.  Another consideration is that when it rains
    and snows, stuff gathers on top of the cover, which also causes the
    pool water level to rise.  I'd drain a few more inches from the
    pool (siphon or whatever) to buy you some more expansion room than
    you've created with the 1" drop.
    
    Let me know if you have any other closing questions.
    
    andy
    

re: .0

#1111.81 has plenty of pointers to other pool closing discussions.

Yup - you should have added plenty of chemicals and filtered it clear
before closing.

But, it may just mean that you'll have to spend some extra filtration
energy in the spring. If I were you, I'd make sure to open it as early
as possible to avoid as much growth as possible under the cover in the
spring - like on the liner. Although, I don't know how well that progresses
in the absence of sunlight, the sooner you open and start filtering
the less the chance of algae propogation since the water will be colder.

-Jack

    
    
    I recommend that you get a bottle of "copper Algeacide" (I think that's
    what it's called).  It is highly concentrated and I found that this
    clears up algea much faster than anything else I ever tried.  I would
    also make sure that the PH is proper, and as mentioned before add
    shock. 
    

	The winter was not nice to my above ground pool.  Its got a
	big "wrinkle" in the side wall sheet mettle.  The wrinkle
	is located at the strainer basket inlet.  Its about four
	feet long and two inches deep at the center.

	The pool store says I'll probably need a new pool wall.
	I suppose he would be willing to sell me one -}.  Any
	suggestions for a DIY repair job?  Thanks.


			Jim

    
    I suppose you could take it to and autobody shop??
    
    Taking into consideration that the liner isnt damaged
    and there are no sharp edges present.  You might want to try
    taking a rubber or wooden malet to the outside.  Place a
    block of wood on the inside.   Hold the wood against the wrinkle
    and hit the mallet in the location of the block.  Short of taking
    the thing apart, this may "iron out your wrinkle!"
    
    JD 

And then to re-inforce the weakened area, build up on the inside with a 
fiberglass patch. That worked for my Brother-in-law's pool.

    re: .1; I took your advice and got the wrinkle out.  Thanks.

    However, as I looked a bit closer, there is a 2.5 inch tear in both
    the sheet metal and the liner.  The tear is located at a corner of
    the skimmer rectangular hole.

    re: .2; I'll use your advice after tear is fixed.  Thanks.

    I talked with a pool installer/repairer.  He said to:
      (1) buy a new liner, and
      (2) either
	    buy a new pool wall
	  or 
	    rivet a patch of sheet metal to both the inside and outside.

    Is this sound advice?  If so, any suggestions on type of sheet metal
    to use, and rivet tools required?



				Jim

    Could somebody give me an estimate for materials for a 12' x 8' PT deck
    for an above ground pool with stairs and a gate?

>    Could somebody give me an estimate for materials for a 12' x 8' PT deck
>    for an above ground pool with stairs and a gate?

	Home Quarters (and maybe other home centers too) will design the
	whole deck for you and give you a complete materials list...

	Roy

    
    This note is a follow up to notes 1221.34 and 1221.36.
    
    It's five years later since we put up the 18' round shadow wood pool.
    
    We'll we took down the pool last weekend. At the time we bought this
    pool we didn't own enough land for a larger pool. But, two years ago
    we bought a piece of property behind our house that now enables us to
    put up a larger pool.
    
    So we sold the pool, and bought a 15x30 oval made by Muskin.
    
    Here are some things that I noticed when taking down the old pool
    and putting up the new one.
    
      We covered the bottom rails of the old pool with plastic to protect
    them. A few of the bottom rails were exposed to the weather. The ones
    that were covered were in perfect conditions, the ones that weren't
    were a little corroded.
    
      We filled around 1/2 of the old pool with bark mulch. Where the mulch
    was up against the pool wall it had started to deteriorate the wall.
    Where the exposed wall ( nothing up against it was just fine ). I'm not
    planning on putting anything around the new pool. Maybe just a small
    amount of rock, but not up against the wall.
    
      We lined the inside of the pool with a 12" skirt behind the cove
    base. When we took down the pool the pool wall behind the skirt was
    in perfect condition. We skipped this on the new pool. The oval pool
    had some spots on the straight wall that the sand had to go between
    the skirt wouldn't alow this to happen.
    
      We used stone dust on the old pool. It held up fine, and packed nice. 
    On the new pool the manufacturer recommeded washed sand ( very fine )
    We had 3 ton delivered from a local sand and gravel yard. The sand was
    much easier to work with and level, and leaves a smoother finish on the
    pool bottom under the liner.
    
      Again as I stressed in these notes before, level, level, and level
    again. If you can get a hold of someone  with a transit, or can borrow
    one use it. You'll save a lot of time.
    
      Here's a installation short cut :
    
       My wife was watching a professional group install my neighbors pool.
    After they installed the liner they stuck the hose of a wet VAC in
    the skimmer opening, taped it to seal it, and turned it on. Well that 
    vac sucks out all the air between the liner and the wall. Makes all the
    wrinkles disappear. We tried it on our's, worked like a champ.
    
    
      Everyone told us that an oval pool was harder to install. Well it
    was a lot more levling, but just as much to install as the oval pool we
    had.
    
    
    Happy Installing.
     
        

    RE:  last note  ==> READ!
    
We just purchased an above-ground, 28 X 4 pool, and would like to put a deck
on.  

So yesterday we went off to Home Quarters (a rainy Sunday; guess where half the
world was...?).  We waited for 45 minutes because there was only one PC which
was running a DOS package called ==> DECK DESIGN  <==  (cute); and three
customers in front of us.  Since the name was so catchy... I decided to wait. 
The line printer that they used to generate the plans (including lumber list,
cost, and drawing), took about 15 minutes.  Because the software runs in DOS,
the PC couldn't do anything else while the plans were drawing!
                                                          
After we finally got waited on, the poor "answer man" struggled, and struggled
to come up with something.  The design he was using was 36' and then the soft-
ware "backs" the pool design into it.  But every time he tried to enter the
size of the pool, the software wouldn't let him.  I watched this poor guy's
frustration level mount.  (Given that he had told me earlier that he knew
nothing about computers after I suggested that they needed a Windows version of
the software and a faster laser printer... I wasn't surprised that he was
getting flustered.  

He kept drawing the area from 36' out, and out, and out... to 54'!  But the
software wouldn't accept 28' everytime it queued him for the size pool to
"back" into the enclosure.  Finally-- I suggested that he plug in a "common"
size, like 18 or 24 feet.  Voila!  The software had "pre-programmed" parameters
and it couldn't handle the "less popular" sizes like 28'.

So guess what...?  He said sorry, can't help you.  We left, and HQ lost a sale! 
Wonder how much they paid for that software?  

I called Home Depot, and they don't do that type of thing.

Now, with all that said, and given the fact that we're not architects, anybody
have any DIY suggestions?  Anyone else have a decked pool that size?

We live in Grafton - around Worcester/Shrewsbury area, so any pointers to
anyplace else would be appreciated, too!

Thanks in advance!

Rgds,
marcia
    

    Don't know if this would be helpful, but how about getting the plans
    for a 24' deck and reworking it on the fly to add the add'l 4 ft? 
    
    On decks for above-ground pools, it's usually the corners/curves that
    will bite ya'...assuming the additional 4' is along a straight side,
    and assuming joists 16" on center, you're only talking an add'l 3 'spans'. 
    Shouldn't be too difficult to factor in the additional posts, joists, etc. 
    and to modify the lumber list accordingly. 
    
    If nothing better pans out, this might be a good fallback!
    
    Good luck!
    

    The software costs about $35.  I bought it but have not installed it
    yet.  Thanks for the warning.
    
    Robin

    There are quite a few notes on pools, but this seems the best place to
    ask my questions.  Background:  I'm getting rid of my 18'x4' round above
    ground pool and giving it to my brother, who will get much more use out
    of it.
    
    1) How soon can we move it?  (Not that I'm anxious of anything! ;-)
    
    2) Any advice on *moving* a pool?
    
    
    Susan

    2) Any advice on *moving* a pool?
    
Sure. Start now.  Take a few closeup photos of how the trim is connected at
top and bottom and how the filter assembly all goes together (inless you
saved all the instructions).  Look for any rusted fasteners and start spraying 
them now with Liquid wrench or similiar product.  Don't plan on assembling it
immediately after taking it down.  You may find yourself short a few nuts 
and bolts that broke during removal and you may want time for shop for new 
ones.

Move it on a day warm enough that the liner is pliable.  Have lots of ziplock
bags well labeled so you can record which fasteners go to which parts.  
When filling, fill slowly and check frequently for leaking.  Isolating at 
which depth a leak occurred narrows the search area.   A wetsuit, mask and
snorkel were great assists in locating the three holes in my brother-in-laws
secondhand pool that supposedly wasn't leaking before it was disassembled.

-Bob

    Thanks, Bob.  I talked to my brother this weekend and suggested that he
    start investigating what he needs to do at this house.  I definitely
    don't have all the instructions, because it was with the house when I
    bought it!  I do know it's a Sharkline pool, and they bought it at
    Seasonal Specialty Store.
    
    Too bad it's Easter weekend - would have been a good time to get
    started.
    
    
    Susan

Save alot of time and headache, buy a new liner !

A replacement liner for an 18X4 can be bought for less than $200.

If it's an older pool with original liner, buying a new one now
will make the installation much easier and prevent replacing it
in the future.

Randy

    It's only two years old.  The owners bought it, decided to put the
    house on the market, and I bought the house!  The liner is in very good
    shape (or was before covering).  I do realize, however, that chances
    are good that the liner will end up ripped or torn during the move.  I
    think my brother realizes that, too.  --S

    Gee, thanks!  I never would have thought of removing the water! ;-)

    but then what do you do with the dolphins?
    
    :-)
    
    ed

>>    <<< Note 1221.77 by NOVA::FISHER "now |a|n|a|l|o|g|" >>>
>>
>>    but then what do you do with the dolphins?

    Just move the pool on Sunday afternoon, when they're over at
    Joe Robbie...

    What about putting a new liner over an exisiting one?  What are
    the problems connected with doing this?  Anyone have any experience
    with this or know of horror/good stories as to why/why not???

    We have a 24 foot round liner pool and need to apply a new liner
    this year.  We are thinking about making life easier on ourselves
    by somehow just putting the new liner in over the old.  Maybe doing
    some cutting of the old liner etc.  A neighbor suggested that we 
    might want to check to find out what is causing the old liner to
    slowly leak before putting in a new liner so the same thing won't
    happen again.  So, we still are looking for feedback on our method
    of applying a new liner over the old.

    Please and thank you.

    justme....jacqui

    you may want to put old blankets/newspaper ect. between the new and the
    old (only on the bottom) if thats where the leaks were comming from.
    If the leaks were comming from the sides, then I would cut out the area
    of the leak and find out what was causing it and fix it.
    
    Dom
    

I've never heard of applying a new liner over an old one and would
be very hesitant to do so. If there are leaks in the old (outside)
one, and they enlarge, you are preparing a nice, dark, damp, sheltered
place for all sorts of nasty stuff to flourish and multiply. The very
thought is pretty yucky, to me.

    
    An experiment is under way, even as we speak.
    
    Last year I replaced the liner in our above-ground. I sliced the old
    liner at a point an inch or so above where the bottom dirt meets the
    wall, removed the old liner from that point up, and installed the new.
    
    I've convinced myself that water cannot build up between the liners.
    Even if the old liner were water-tight (which it isn't, which is why
    I replaced it), that water-tightness would now extend only an inch up
    the walls (to my cut), and water would be forced out from between the
    old and new liners by the pressure of 4' of water above it.
    
    The pool made it through a full swimming season and this past winter
    with no problems. Will keep you informed.
    
    One thing I noted was that the old liner starts to shrink pretty
    rapidly after you remove all the water, so you have to work fairly
    quickly.

    I've been told that liners are designed to stretch *once* to fit the
    pool during initial fill.  When the water is taken out completely, they
    shrink and do not have enough stretch left to do it again.
    
    I lost water during the winter and tried to refill in the spring after
    fixing the leak.
    
    No such luck...
    
    /Chris

    
    Actually, though some installers stretch liners *a little* to get out
    every last wrinkle, the installation instructions usually warn
    specifically against any stretching, as cause for voiding the warranty.
    

	    One of the many times my neighbor drained his pool, he didn't
	refill right away.  The sun heated the liner and it shrunk, but he 
	filled the pool anywyas and it stretched back.  It's also wrinkled
	now.  This is in a small inground pool.

					Tim

I've just purchased a 25'x 15' oval, above ground pool and now have the
dreaded task of installing it ;-(.   I have someone coming in with a
bulldozer who's going to prepare/level the site.  Some questions on site prep;

- The bulldozer operator suggested using stonedust, not sand as the base.
  That seems to be the trend I read in this note.  The instructions are
  actually fairly ambiguous.  Comments on stonedust vs sand?

- My neighbor, who helped install his fathers pool used sand, then patio
  blocks under each side support.  If your using stonedust, do you use patio
  blocks or put it directly on the stonedust surface without additional
  support?  Or, for oval pools, do you put the side "outrigger" support beams 
  on patio blocks, the rest without? 

- How thick do you want the stonedust surface?  3"?

Any additional suggestions, gotcha's, etc.. welcome!  _Mark

    
    I would never use stonedust again; it punched a myriad of holes through
    my first liner.
    
    Whatever you use, put a patio block under each support.
    

    My pool is going on it's fourth year with a stone dust base, no leaks
    and no indentations. 
    
    Ross

     
     I have installed over 60 pools, all with stone dust!.  You need to
    tell the supplier that it's for a pool. They will try to get you the 
    finer. You also need to tamp the entire bottom then wet it down and
    you will find the larger pieces will show up, remove them if you 
    think they might be a problem.  Stone dust packs like cement if you
    tamp it good enough. It makes for an easy liner instalation without
    all the footprints!.  (Sand is a big NO NO.......)
    
     BTW:  Tampers cost aprox. $24.  you might want to rent one!.
           You may want to rent a trasit (scope) to level the blocks,
           Very easy to use and a time saver!!.
    
    Tom.

    
    I've only installed 2 pools. You can read both my notes in this
    string. The first was an 18' round using stone dust ( from Brox
    in Dracut MA. The second is an 15x30 Oval using washed sand ( very fine
    sand, from Heffron materials in Wilmington, MA. I found the washed
    sand to be the easiest to work with. Just be sure you're level
    all the way around and the rest is cake !
    
    

    Does anyone know where one can obtain deck plans for above ground
    swimming pools? It seems that this would or could be a standard
    design since they all have the same basic shape, in other words
    any 18' round pool looks more or less the same. 
    
    						Bob...

   106  11740::JOHNSON       26-MAR-1986    17  deck plans
  2999  MIDCIM::DAIGLE       10-FEB-1989    11  Above Ground Pool Deck Questions.

    Well, I know EVERYONE'S minds are on their pools right now, so I have a
    question. 8-)
    
    I have a 27' round above ground pool.  I have covered it and have two
    baloons under the cover.  I have hung seven gallon jugs of water at
    even intervals around the pool.  Still, I am concerned about the amount
    of snow that has piled on top of the pool.  Am I crazy?  Is there
    anything else I could/should do?
    
    Regards,
    	    JAM

    
    Funny, we were just talking about this here in the office this
    morning. I'm going to get a snow rake and gently take of some of
    the snow on it. There's way too much on there right now for my 
    comfort level.
    
    

    If I were you I would get as much snow off the pool as
    possible.....pronto   The snow/ice combined and split open
    the side of mine like a frozen water pipe. The split is
    growing and I expect the liner to burst any day now..as soon
    as enough snow melts, which is sort of holding the water in
    right now.  Good luck.