Conference 7.286::home_work

I haven't used either, but everything I've read say that red is more durable 
than white.  But not THAT much more.  I've heard advice that the red cedar is
worth it for roofing, but you're almost as well off with white for siding.  I
do know that most of the price differential is in shipping costs.  Red cedar is
from the west coast, and white is grown locally.  I think that they weather to
slightly different colors, so if you are not staining that may be a factor.
You'll probably have an easier time finding non r&r white shingles than red, 
since you're closer to the source.  

Good Luck

Paul

Paul is correct relative  to weathering.  A big consideration in choosing
white over red is the pigments which will come to the surface in red cedar.
Red cedar cannot weather naturally and look good.  The red pigment comes
to the surface in blothcy segments making the shingles look terrible.  White,
on the other hand does not suffer from this pigment problem.  If you are
going to cover with an opaque stain then this would not be a concern.

peter

	I have shakes on my house that are in need of some repair. 
    Some of them are cracked others have curled a bit and still others
    seem to have shifted or shrunk to the point where there are now
    spaces between them.  The cracks and curling are no real problem,
    I can repair or replace those but the spaces are another matter.
    Most of the smaller spaces I can fill with paint when I reach that
    point.  Is there a prefered method of handling the larger spaces?
    Can you caulk in between the shakes?  Under the shakes there is
    a felt type of board - for insulation I imagine.  If this material
    is not exposed by the spaces should I even worry about them?  We're
    talking spaces of anywhere up to 1/4".
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    George

    Spaces between shakes are normal.  Your spaces of up to 1/4" are
    probably fine.  The shakes should be applied so that none of the
    cracks of one layer line up with the cracks of the layer above or
    below it; if that is done, the overlap will be sufficient that 
    everything will be weathertight.  If you can see through cracks 
    down to the felt underlayment then you do have a problem, but 
    otherwise almost certainly no.
    
    Steve

                Do you by any chance live in a slab Ranch (possibly 
        built by Campanelli)?????? If you do, I'll have more to say 
        later!
                
                /s/     Bob
                

   re .2
     Nope.  It's a cape built by god knows who.  

    Speaking of shakes...

    Anyone know where I can get new shakes in the Lowell/Nashua area?

-mike

    If you're interested in red cedar (I wouldn't recommend white cedar),
    you can find them at practically any building supply place. I bought
    a "square" of Resquared/Rebutted (#2, I think ?) red cedar shakes
    at Webber in No Chelmsford for about $50 on sale last Fall. But,
    I believe Grossmans, Friends (in Lowell) and Channel all carry them
    and occassionally run sales. Check their circulars in the local
    papers. Get the best shakes you can. I've used both White and Red,
    and there's a world of difference working with the better shakes.
    
    	- mike g.

    Well, this weekend I checked out the house again and this is the
    situation.  The spaces are smaller than I thought with the largest
    being only an 1/8th inch and most smaller than that.  Underneath
    the shakes there is a fiber board that runs under each course of
    shakes.  Understand that the house isn't sheathed in this stuff
    and the shakes nailed to the sheathing but instead it seems that
    a course of fiberboard was nailed to the sheathing and then a course
    of shakes over that, than another course of fiber and shakes etc.
    over the entire house.  The spaces between the shakes exposes a
    small area of this fiberboard to the weather.  Is this a problem?
    Does anyone know what this material is?  Is it common with shakes
    as oppossed to shingles?  I'm not really worried about it since
    it's been there 17 yrs. and seems to be in fairly good shape (dry,
    not crumbling).  I am curious though since I haven't seen it before.
    
    Again, thanks for the help
    

My house has the same outer skins, shakes over fiberboard. I needed to 
repair some shakes when I was repainting, but I couldn't fine anyone who 
would supply me with a small quantity of shakes that matched, only 
available in quantities large enough to do half a wall or so.

What I ended up doing was borrowing a few good shakes from a corner at 
the back of the house, where it's quite shaded and there are some rose 
bushes there anyway. These I used to replace the damaged ones in various 
places around the visible sides of the house. I replaced the borrowed 
ones with cedar shingles that were the same size, but slightly different 
texture. After the paint job, it's hard to notice a difference from a 
few feet away. If I find some shakes that match, it's fairly easy now to 
put them up in place of the cedar ones. Then the only problem will be 
matching paint; I have some left but I'm sure the house has changed 
color already.

- Roger

Re: .5
    The suggestion to buy the best available shakes is a good one, but
    to then include the name Grossman's in the same sentence leaves
    me dumbfounded. I have never seen a wood item at Grossman's that
    I would use as kindling, let alone build a house from (I have built
    two major additions for friends that bought from Grossmans). They
    are fine for manufactured products with brand names but their lumber
    is awfull. I asked a Grossmans salesrep once what the label 'PAD'
    meant on their framing lumber- he replied Partially Air Dried, that
    means it was cut and milled green and got whatever drying occured
    on the truck enroute from the mill to Grossmans. Dont let the stuff
    come in contact with the ground, it's likely to sprout roots!
    
    Just my opinion of course,
    Ron Ginger
    

    re .7
     
    Roger,
    
    	I'm going to need some shakes when I do the house this spring
    but I don't think I'm going ot need an entire bundle (I think the
    trade term is "square"?).  If you still need shakes would you be
    interested in splitting a bundle?
    
    George

	I've heard of a place in Chelmsford that has (or had) red cedar butted
    and resquared for about $42/square.
    
    	Also about buying part of a square...they're usually four bundles
    per square and you can buy just a bundle.  Not meaning to insult,
    but that means you can buy just enough for about 25 square feet.
    However, some are sold by the box, which usually covers about 50
    square feet.
    
    		- Rich, who has gone through about 4 squares - 3 to go,
    			and who sure as hell wouldn't want to do it
    			for a living.
    
    P.S.  The bundle per square they quote depends on the exposure.
    	  They usually tell you what number they use.  Usually they
    	  use 6 inches, but I've heard 7 from some suppliers.

RE: .9

George, if we have the same kind of shakes, I'll take a look at a deal. 
It depends a lot on how many you will need, and what price we would have 
to pay for a square. I only need a few, but could take a quarter of a 
square (one bundle if that's how they package them) and have a goodly few 
spares. When I was hunting around, there seemed to be few suppliers who 
could get me the kind I needed, and the only one that was certain that 
they could was on the west side of Manchester, maybe as far west as to 
actually be in Goffstown.

At the time, I was kind of rushed, as there was only a small window of 
time when my brother-in-law was in the area. (He's a pro house painter, 
and had offered to do most of the painting if we shared the preparation.) 
There may be other suppliers that I didn't get to try who can supply 
smaller quantities.

Where are you located? We'll need to figure out how to do the 
comparison. I live in Merrimack, NH, work in Spitbrook Rd, and visit 
Littleton quite a lot.

- Roger

    
    Oops!  That price I gave in .10 was for a box (not a square), which
    covers about a half square.  Sorry 'bout that!
                 
    						- Rich

RE: .11    
    
Roger,

I bought a square last year to cover up some windows I removed.  I have one
bundle left.  If they match yours, I'll sell them cheap.  I work in the Mill
but got to ZK about once a month.  If your interested, let me know and I'll
bring a sample.


Mark

    

    What is a shake?  Is it some sort of shingle?  wood or asbestos?
    						Jorge'

    A shake is a split, not sawn, wooden shingle.  If you're in the
    mill, look above the vending machines outside the cafeteria on 5-4.
    That fake roof thing is covered with shakes.
    
    Steve

Some shakes are fake; fake shakes. Someone just told me that mine may be 
some asbestos composition, but I'm not sure. The grain on the surface is 
certainly fake, much too uniform. I think it was milled on after some 
other manufacturing process. When I was doing repairs, the broken ones 
seemed to me to have some real grain within them.

So you folks that have offered to do some kind of sharing, if you have 
real wooden shakes with genuine woodgrain, they aren't the same as mine. 
You may be able to do some kind of sharing with each other though.

     I am planing an addition to my house and I will be using cedar
    shingles on the outside. I want to stain the shingles on the
    addition and also stain the rest of the house at the same time. 
    My problem is this, the rest of the house is shingled but the 
    previous owner painted them a number of times. I have heard that
    I can sand blast the shingles to remove the paint but this sounds
    like a very big job. The other option is removing all the old
    shingles and replacing them. Has anyone ever done anything like
    this? Does anyone know the cost and time differance between these
    two options? I will have to rent the sand blaster and buy the sand.
    I also can picture having the equivalent of a beach around my house
    after I'm done. 
    
    				Any response is helpful
    
    					Mike  

I would guess offhand that it might be cheaper to have someone come in and do 
the sandblasting for you than it would be to buy new shingles.  Cedar shingles 
aren't cheap!  Even if it is slightly more expensive, think of the time it would
take (and the mess it would create) to rip off all the old ones, to say nothing 
of the time to reshingle.  Sandblasting might also fall into the category of 
things that are worth having done by someone else.  I'd be interested in hearing
from anyone who has done it themselves.  

Paul

    If you actually try sandblasting your cedar shingles, you will wind
    up reshingling the house.  Sandblasting is for stone and metal.
    When used on wood, it will almost instanteously vaporize the wood.
    
    Blasting paint off wood can be done using a less abrasive material,
    like sawdust.
    
    -- Ward

    Saw an old cedar panelled ceiling a couple of weeks back that had
    100 odd years of paint sandblasted off. Definitely gives it a coarse
    finish, but looked good.
    
    Andrew M.

    be careful about blasting.  Most towns now have laws about blasting
    paint off buildings, especially ones that have lead based paint
    on them.
    
    You may find that it can't be done, or the hassle is so high that
    the re-shingle is the better bet
    
    -bill

    Can you flip the shingles over without doing too much damage?

    re .5:
        
    	Hmmm...let me think of a good way to paraphrase this...	The correct
    way to apply shingles is so that they are flexed to oppose their natural
    curvature.
    
    	If a shingle tends to curve more in the vertical direction,
    you should put the conCAVE side against the wall (previous course)
    so that the natural curvature forces the bottom edge to fit tightly
    against the previous course, rather than bending outward.  If a shingle
    tends to curve more in the horizontal direction, you want to put the
    conVEX side against the wall and this will also hold the bottom
    edge against the previous course.
    
    	So, assuming your shingles were applied correctly to begin with,
    you shouldn't flip them over.
    
    	BTW, there is an occasional wide shingle that fits in a third
    category - the curve reverses direction somewhere in the middle
    or something else weird.  This kind is a good candidate either for 
    the trash or to be split in half before using.
    
    	Hope this helps!
    
    						- Rich

    For a look at sandblasted wood, come to the mill in Maynard.  
    Sandblasting tends to emphasize the grain - a lot - and with
    cedar shingles it would take a delicate touch to avoid eating
    up the shingles, but I'd say it is certainly feasible.  I would
    also opt for paying somebody to do it.  Sandblasting is a DIRTY
    job!!!  I've got a little Sears sandblaster, and even with that
    the mess is unbelievable.  I wear a full-length poncho with hood,
    a face mask, face shield, gloves, high boots with jeans pulled
    down over them, and sand and dirt still get inside my clothes!
    I would guess by the time you rented equipmend big enough to do
    the job in a reasonable amount of time, and went thorough the hassle
    of actually doing the work, paying somebody to do the work would
    look pretty good.
    
    Steve
    
    Steve

I'm looking for some information on the reliability of spuce siding. It will
be used on a cottage on Lake Champlain in VT and finished with at least 2
coats of a good quality oil based semi-transparent stain ( on the roughsawn
side).  The builder says it's a good inexpensive alternative to the more
expensive cedar (or fir) siding and that he has had good luck with it.  Some
people I've talked to say it's a mistake, the spuce will rot,  and that there
is no replacement for cedar as a wood siding material.  I'd like to hear from
anyone that can speak from experience.  I'd prefer not to have to spend the
extra $$ if at all possible. 



Thanks, Bill 

    My guess is, it will do fine.  Especially if you seal the back of
    the siding before you put it on, either with stain or Cuprinol or
    something similar.  If you keep it stained it will almost certainly
    last a lot longer than you are likely to care about it.
    
    Steve

    Some clapboards will split but not so many that you won't
    save money in the long-run.  It will also help to dip the
    clapboards in the cuprinol rather than using a brush.
    

    re: dipping it
    
    Isn't there something about not sealing every surface of a piece of
    wood so water has somewhere to get out?
    
    -joet 

     >    Isn't there something about not sealing every surface of a piece of
     >    wood so water has somewhere to get out?

    Cuprinol and other preservatives or stains don't seal the wood,
    so it can still breathe. What you don't want to do is *paint* both
    sides.

     I have  an  old  house  that  has  been  covered with shakes. They have
     weathered  somewhat ungracefully. So now I have decided I would like to
     stain them (opaque). However, just looking at the job, it appears to me
     that  it  will  be  one  bear  of a job to get the stain into all those
     cracks  and  rough  surfaces.  Is  there a secret to this? Must I use a
     sprayer? Any help/suggestions appreciated.

          ... Buren

    We, actually my wife mostly, repainted our shingled house last year.
    She went to the hardware store for a brush and the salesperson sold
    her a paint pad. IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE! she painted a 2 story colonial
    in only 2 or 3 days with the thing. It would cover 2 or 3 sqft from
    one dipping, never drip and eaisly filled in all the cracks and
    even under the edge. Forget spraying, buy a pad- they are only $4!
    

    I would consider using a sprayer.  I did my cape with a dormer in
    a weekend with one.  I used it with the attached reservior rather
    than the long tube into the can (wouldn't suck up the stain nicely).
    I would spray a large area then go back with a brush and touch up
    the rough areas and some of the cracks.  The reservoir held enough
    that I didn't feel like I was wasting alot of time refilling and
    it allowed me to do the touch up before the stain started drying
    too much.  I had gotten the sprayer as a gift so I didn't have the
    initial outlay for it ($80-$100).  
    
    Steve
    

    Anyone out there got any good suggestions for building a vat to dip red 
    cedar  clapboards  in for staining before installation?  The  claboards 
    are 6 " x random length, up to 12' long.I  have  a number of ideas, the 
    best of which seems the 2 x ?.  Here's the alternatives, with +/-.
    
         1.   Don't stain the  siding  till  it's  on  the  house.    (  +:  
         Eliminates  the  vat issue.  -:    Only  does  one  side,  doesn't 
         penetrate as well, messy, time)
         
         2.  Stain in the normal manner  BEFORE  installation.   ( +:  Gets 
         both  sides,  conventional techniques -:  Time consuming,  sloppy, 
         doesn't penetrate as well as dipping, stacking )
         
         3.  Dip.  ( +:  Best penetration, easy, fast -:  Building the vat, 
         stacking) For a vat (the siding is up to 12  '  long  x  6"), I've 
         considered:   Plastic gutter  section  (probably  too  shallow??);  
         building out of 2 x  ?   (may have to line it with a non-permeable 
         coating or other barrier of some sort,  else  the  stain will soak 
         into the wood of the vat)
         
         Help!
         
         Thanks.
         
              Bill
              

    How about some 1x6 or 1x8 stock, lined with fiberglass from your
    friendly local auto fixit store?  (Why are you considering 2x stock?
    How strong does this thing need to be, after all?)
    
    Steve

    	Why not use an 8 inch dia. or larger dia. PVC pipe. Get what
    ever length you need, cap the bottom and elevate the open end.
    Fill the tube with stain and slide in the clap board. This may
    be less messy than a trough and when not using it you can cap
    the open end and it's ready to use another day. I know an antique
    dealer who dissasembles beds an strips them this way.
    
    						Mike O'Brien
     

    I used one made of 1x10 shiplap.  The frame was made of 2x4's
    (Just enough to hold the shiplap together.  So it was just 3
    14' pieces of shiplap.  A sheet of 3 foot wide plastic (the
    kind that comes in a roll, usually to be used as a vapor
    barrier), lined the inside.  After they were dipped, I layed
    them on the ground using 2x4's to hold them off the ground.
    
    Remember that the siding is probably going to all have to
    be cut (or at least squared) before it is put up.  You might
    end up with thin vertical (unstained) lines where all the
    pieces meet.
    
    Next time, I would only prestain enough to be used at the peaks,
    since I don't like high ladders too much.
    

    I picked up a section of a demolished metal building at Duane's
    Wrecking in Qunicy.  It is U-shaped, ~14" wide, ~5" high and ~12'
    long.  It's made out of galzanized metal.  It has open ends that you'd 
    have to plug.  I originally bought it to use as a stripping tank but 
    never got around to using it.
    

    Thanks for  all  your  help.    I  particularly appreciate (.2), that's 
    slick!
    
         Bill
         

    re:2
    
    That does sound slick...(ask me, I have reclapboarded my house over
    the past few years, one side at a time, then stained it.) Watch
    out for solids in your stains, they will settle in any tank affair
    you build. The cappable tube idea sounds like less evaporation and
    ifyou can cap it tightly, you could even "shake your stain" every
    so often to be sure of keeping your solids in suspension.
    
    BTW: don't skimp on cheap stain, it isn't worth it. A few dollars
    more per gallon of top quality stain will make the job last longer
    and look better. All good brands go on sale at some time in the
    year so watch for the ads.

    Any suggestions  on  stains?    We  want  a  weathering stain, which is 
    different from solid, semi-solids, or transparents, as I understand it.  
    Turns cedar that nice natural weathered gray look in a relatively short 
    time, if I understand correctly.    We've  been thinking about Cabot's, 
    Cuprinol, in particular.  Don't know if one manufacturer is better than 
    another.
    
    What about staging, scaffolding?  I'm building some out of plywood, & 2 
    xs.  If I had to do it  over,  I wouldn't go that route.  I'll have the 
    best home grown staging in Hillsboro County when I get done, but adding 
    the  labor  to  the lumber cost leads me to believe the  project  isn't 
    residing the house, it's building the staging to reside the house ;-(.
    
         Bill
         

    There is a blasting method that was devised for cleaning anchor
    chains for the US Navy. It uses a machine that manufactures 
    Dry Ice Pellets and uses them as the abrasive material, rather
    than sand. The pellets remove the paint by impact and temperature
    change on the paint, while also polishing the surface of the
    wood as the pellets disolve. There is no sand debris, as an added
    benefit.
    There is a firm locally that offers blasting with this method, but
    I did not try them since I'd already finished 1/4 of the house with
    a heat gun and perspiration. But, if I had it to do over the blasters
    would get the contract. 
    I'm working on only the clapboard of the first story, the remaining
    three stories are shingle and are 70 years + old. They were painted
    by the previous owner and have subsequently curled due to the paint
    preventing water absorbtion, while the humidity and water absorbed
    into the inner facing.
    Sorry not to remember the dry ice blasting contractor's name, but
    found him through the yellow pages after a number of calls for
    price quotes, availability, etc.
    

    Any estimates on the cost of getting someone in to sandblast (or
    dry ice blast or whatever)? How much did it cost for how many square
    feet?
    
    I'm looking at my cedar clapboard which has been stained "Mission
    Brown", which is a dark, dark brown. I long for a white or, to use
    an easy stain, light sand colored house. And I suspect that using
    one of the solid color stains of the right tone, it will take umpteen
    million coats of stain to hide the dark brown.

    Can you sandblast stain?  I shouldn't think it would work.
    
    	HRB

    When it comes to staging for siding do as the pros do! Buy four
    sets of "pump up" and some staging planks. Big money yes, but it
    is safe and you should be able to sell it for 2/3 of what you payed
    for it when your done!
    
    -Mike_
    

    re: .8
    
    What is "pump up", where would you buy it (them), and how much would
    it cost to get about 25' up in the air?
    
    -joet

    I've heard them called pump jacks.  They're brackets that you put on a
    roughly 4x4 pole and they hold your staging planks.  They have a lever
    that makes the bracket climb up about 4-6" for each pump, so that you
    gradually work your way up...great for wall shingling!  Farnsworth in
    Shirley has them for about $45 each (not too long ago), including the
    bracket for the top of your pole, which you nail near the top of your
    wall.  For 25 feet, you probably want to use 2x4s face-nailed together
    to make almost 4x4's, since it's tough to get a 4x4 to stay straight
    at that length. Some cross-bracing wouldn't hurt, too.  And have a
    ladder handy to climb down on, since you can't lower them with any
    weight on them (this is true of the ones I borrowed, anyway). 

    Enjoy!
    
    						- Rich

   I also know them as "pump-jacks".  I bought a set two years ago for $110
   from Coast Ladder (in Lynn MA, I think).  They work great.  I needed
   to get 20' up, so I made 24' 4x4's by screwing 2x4's together as
   mentioned in .9.  Since I only weigh 160, the guy said there was no
   need to buy "real" oak staging planks.  But I did buy rough sawn 2x12
   fir - do NOT purchase 2x12 pine.  A 16' fir plank spanning about 12' only
   gives an inch or two when I walk on it.
    
   The ones I bought move up just about 3" with each pump.  I too used
   a ladder to get up to the staging.  However, to get the pump jack
   down when finished, you can bring them back down.  You release the
   crank, put your one foot on the lower lever, put your other foot
   on the plank (keep weight on it), and turn the crank.  Each turn
   lowers you about 3".
    

   Good luck,
   Mark

   P.S.  I think it is also advisable to spend another $35 for guardrail
         brackets.  They fit on top of the pumpjack and permit you to
         add one or two 2x4 or 2x6 guard rails.  Since they are attatched
         to the pumpjack, the rails move up as you raise the pumpjack.

    

    I think the planks to use are SPRUCE. They are sold specifically
    as staging planks, are usually full dimension 2x12 and OHSA sets
    standards for grain runout, knots etc. I cant imagine who could
    lift an oak plank and fir isnt much lighter.
    
    I use lots of staging planks- but I make Masts, booms, gaffs, and
    oars out of them for boats! I last paid about $.60 per bdft for
    staging plank, the last 'boat spruce' I saw from Condon was $4.50!

Actually, I think most pump jacks are _designed_ to be used with two 2x4s 
nailed or screwed together.  At least some of them are, I don't think mine 
would fit a 4x4.  Check before you go and buy your posts.

Paul

    In times past I've rented steel scaffolding.  Great stuff, but $$$.
    Doing it again, I probably wouldn't unless I really needed an area
    4' or so wide to walk on.  The pump jacks are probably the best
    way to go, all things considered, if you have to get more than a
    few feet into the air.
    
    If you just need to go up, say, 6' or so, some gadgets an uncle
    of mine made are real handy.  He didn't invent them, but has made
    several pair of various heights. Basically it's an A-frame with
    an arm sticking out at the top (valiant attempt at line-art here:)
    
           front view                        side view    
    		||		       ===============
               //\\                     A            \\    
              //  \\                                  \\
             //    \\                                  \\
            //======\\                                 B\\
           //        \\                                  \\
          //          \\                                  \\

    Angles of legs should be 3:12 ratio on a framing square.
    There should be diagonal braces going from point A to point B on
    each leg, but I can't figure out how to draw them....
    Point A leans up against the house wall, and you put staging planks
    across the top.  When you want to move, just pick up the frames
    and carry them to where you want to be.

    Steve

    
    	I will probably be in the market for a set of pump jacks myself
    sometime soon.  If anyone has a set that "need a new home", or is going
    to be getting a set for a one time project, and then disposing of them
    please send me mail.  I'll take the planks too if they are in good
    shape.
    
    	Reg
    

Us modern people have it real easy.  When I shingled my house, my father-in-law
built me some staging for a LOT less.  We simply bought some long 2X4's, stood
them up and c-clamped them to the house where possible and otherwise nailed
them.  Then we simply took boards about 4 or 5 inches wide and cross nailed
them to the 2x4's.  Across these we placed a section of an extension ladder
to make the surface for standing on.  On top of that plywood or pine keeps you
from falling through.  Finally, another 2X4 clamped horizontally about 3 feet
above the plank forms the railing.

When you're done, you simply cut up the 2X4's for your next project.

Sounds to me like I'd get the clamps too, but would stick with the ladder for
the plank.

Whatever you do, be SURE to put up a railing!  I tried working without one and
all it took was one brush with death at 20 feet to convince me I needed one.

By the way, my method requires at least 2 extension ladders because you need
at least one just to get on and off the staging and a second for the staging
itself.  As I said before, it's crude but CHEAP!  As for safety, like a rock!

    .16 suggests using a ladder as a staging plank. Every ladder Ive
    ever seen had a safety legend on it about it NOT being suitable
    for a plank. Ladders are designed to carry most load in compression,
    this kind of use puts them in BIG tension load. I'd stick with
    'official' staging planks.
    
    Ron

You certainly raise a valid point and I had to think about it for awhile.
If you knew my father in law, you'd KNOW he never takes chances.  The way I
figure it is that OSHA is very careful in watching labelling practices.  If
someone were to do as I just said and hauled up a coule hundred pound load of
shingles or even put a second person on there, they're be in for a long drop.

On the other hand, if you look at the strength of 2X4's (I use a wooden ladder,
NEVER aluminum!) what is essentially what the ladder is made of (though I'll bet
the quality of the wood is much better than 2X4's).  Look at kids wooden swing 
sets.  Some of them span more than 10 feet and when fully loaded with kids (or
adults!) can put a much stonger load on that the staging with me on it.
Furthermore, the wood that the wooden swings are made of (southern yellow pine)
is not as strong as a good spruce 2X4 (I know because when I tested a swing set
I built out of the southern yellow pine, I was able to snap some of the timbers
but just sitting on them (which is a possible topic for another note)).

Anyhow, re: .-1, even using staging planks can be very dangerous if you don't
use your head.  Like I said before, I still plan to use ladders for staging, BUT
will never load them with more than me...

-mark

    HI,
    This notes file is GREAT. There is alot of information that
    has come in real handy, as my life of a home owner continues.
    
    But, I do have another type problem I need some suggestions on.
    
    There is a Gap between the foundation and the siding on my house.
    This Gap is about 1"+, and you can see the insulation if you look
    up it. The siding on the house is a pressed wood type stuff and
    the foundation of course in cement. It goes all the way around
    the house, except where the patio and brick facing are at.     
    The house is about 2 1/2 years old and this gap is the way the
    house was built, not because of structure damage or the like...
    
    Becuase of winter time heat loss and mice and other creepy crawlers
    getting up there, I need to close it off. I don't believe a weather
    stripping type material will work, the mice will eat that too.
    
    Any suggestions on how I should close this gap ?               
         Thanks for the help in the past and the present!!    Mark

    I tried using that spray foam to fill a gap around the cellar door.
    Watch out!  It isn't as easy to use as it sounds.  Some of the stuff
    I used went through the crack to the outside.  It was impossible
    to remove and quickly turned a yellow-brown color.  Only after about
    6 months did it harden enough for me to scrape off - and even then
    it was a hell of job to get it off.

    Can you get to the inside of the foundation and wall?  If so, you
    can face it and grout it full using some anchors and things that
    would be much more permanent.
    

    I do not have access to this gap from the inside, only the outside.
    This is what it looks like now:   
                     
                          installation
                         |
                         V
   inside drywall -->  |   |
   concret floor_______|_  | <-- exterier siding
                ^      | |        <-- concret foundation
                       | |_____   <-- earth, ground, mother nature etc...
    
    The house is a two story house, without a basment or any type of
    under ground access. There is about 4" between the ground and the
    siding.
    
    I been thinking about placing 2"x2" and painting the showing edges.
    But the 2x2 will come out past the outside siding. 2x are too big and 
    1x are two small, 1x would leave about 1/2 (+-) inch to caulk. 
    
    The installation foam is a good idea, but the mice will eat through
    that given time. Need somthing a little more solid.
                

    We are in dire need of knowledgeable advice. So far we have been
    given contradictory advice and are looking for further information
    which can be backed up by experience.
    
    To set the stage:
    
    We live in a home that is three years old. The builder sided the
    home with something called Insulite made by Masonite. Insulite is
    a composite made of compressed sawdust or something which comes
    resembling wood on the top with the primer already applied.  The
    builder put on a skimpy coat of latex paint over the existing primer.
    
    The paint has peeled badly and where it has peeled in most cases
    (on the southern side of the house), it has left us unsure as to
    whether any primer still remains on the siding or not. The siding
    is not very amenable to scraping (ie it is very easy to leave all
    sorts of fibers hanging out if you scrape too deeply). In a few
    places, however, we have gotten through to the underlying mystery
    material of which the siding is made. This leaves us with 75% latex
    paint in okay shape, 24% latex off but uncertain as to whether primer
    remains or we're dealing with the top layer of siding, and a final
    1% where we have definitely gotten through to siding material.
    
    
    The dilemma:
    
    Do we cover it all with a thick coat of latex house paint?
    Do we cover it with a coat of oil-based primer then the latex house
    	paint?
    Do we use the oil-based primer to just touch up the areas where
    	we are definitely through to the siding mystery material?
    
    
    The contradictory advice has tended to follow these lines:
    
    	- Cover with oil-based primer over the entire house.
    	- Don't try to cover oil-based primer with latex paint.
    	- Don't put oil-based primer (this advice from the can), over
    		any latex paint at all.
    	- Cover entire house with two coats of latex and forget the
    		primer.
    
    As you can see, we are very confused. I'm willing to listen to any
    reasonable suggestions but due to the budget crunch the suggestions
    must be ones which I can carry out myself before the end of the
    decade (ie I don't want to put in 2080 hours painting the house
    with an exotic kiwi-juice based paint).
    
    As the house is scraped and virtually caulked and the winter is
    nearly upon us, we had hoped to attack the problem this weekend.
    Consequently, advice is welcome before then, or even after then
    as we don't plan to start painting until we are reasonably sure
    that our plans have some chance of working.
    
    Thank you in advance,
    Paul
    

    Why not insulate the outside of your concrete foundation with
    styrafoam? On my house, my siding was out one inch past my
    slab edge because I used one inch tuff-r for sheathing before
    putting on the siding. To correct this, I insulated the edges of
    the slab with one inch styrafoam and went about 3-4 inches below
    the ground level. The styrafoam can tuck up under the siding very
    neatly, and since it comes in various thicknesses, I'm sure you
    can find a thickness close to the gap that you have. Since the
    styrafoam is not very strong (compared to the concrete that used
    to be exposed), and since light deteriorates the styrafoam, you
    have to put a protective covering over the new exposed edge... But
    don't worry...Styrafoam (or whoever makes it) has a coating material
    that comes in 5 gallon buckets and does the job quite nicely. You
    just mix it up, trowel it on,(I used a putty knife) and then brush
    it so that it looks textured.(Brush is provided in 5 gallon kit)
    By the way...you just glue the styrafoam board to the concrete
    foundation with a good quality construction glue.
    After you're finished, you can't tell the difference from the regular
    concrete foundation that you started with.

    Akalyd paint is happily compatible with both latex and oil.
    If you feel it is necessary to prime (or double coat) the house,
    and you want to use oil for your final coat you should use
    an alkalyd primer. Combining oil and latex often leads to peeling,
    etc.
                                                         
    Unfortunately, alkalyd paint is slightly more expensive than good
    quality oil paint. And, go with a good quality paint. Paint
    seems to be one of those commodities where "you get what you 
    pay for".                                   
    
    Don't try to "put on a thick coat" of either latex or oil.
    At best you'll end up with a poor paint job (runs, drips, etc.).
    At worst you will have problems due to poor "drying".
    
    Fianally, try to find out why the original paint peeled.
    Was it simply poor painting? Poor paint quality? Mixing
    oil and latex improperly? Or, as has been discussed so often here,
    moisture problems?
    
    bd

    < Note 338.1 by ERLANG::BD "Brian D. Handspicker" >
                     -< Oil and Water don't *always* mix >-


    Brian,
    	Are you suggesting using the akalyd paint as both primer and
    final coat over the existing latex/primer combination and over the
    spots where we're down to the siding mystery material?
    
    	Do you have any handy-dandy list of questions that I can use
    to determine what caused the paint to peel?  The peeling seems to
    be uniform along the bottom edge of most of the siding. It also
    seems to occur in the middle of the lower half of the south-east
    side of the house and the middle of the lower half of the south-west
    side. North-west and north-east have no peeling but some mildew.
    
    Paul
    

    I owned an insulite clad home for 8 years.  It was painted with
    Sherwin Williams and never had a paint failure.  The north side
    was shakes though.   Anyhow my only advice is not to paint with
    a brush.  Either use a pad or spray.  Every stroke will show up
    with a brush.
    
    Find out why the original paint failed before you invest time and
    money in a remedy.  Talk to a paint supply person.
    
    good luck

    Paul,
        
    I have a Insulite sided house and have painted sections of Insulite
    as a result of adding a deck and wooden chase. There is nothing particularly
    unique about the Insulite. The only real difference between Insulite
    and Masonite is that the former is primed with a paint which   
    supposedly seals the wood and adds to the insulation of your walls.
    I don't believe the insulation claims but the primer does ease the
    painting.  If it were not primed, your contractor could not have
    gotten away with only one coat of house paint. You can easily tell
    when you have scraped below the primer, Insulite is brown under the
    gray primer.
                                                                   
    I spent a number of summers painting houses for a "old pro" and
    his approach was to prime any bare wood (or masonite) with a latex
    primer (Muralo makes a good one) and then put on two coats of a
    good quality latex house paint.  He only used oil based paints where
    he was covering areas previously painted with oil paints.      
                                                                   
    His paint choices were:                                        
                                                                   
    Californian (good quality at a good price)                     
    Benjamin Moore (better quality at a inflated price).           
                                                                   
    I agree with the other replies that you need to find out what caused
    the peeling. I know that some of the contractors thin the paint to save
    money and make it easier to apply. I wonder if your pealing could be
    due to too thin a coat of paint being hit by the heat of the sun from
    the southern exposure you mentioned.                           
                                                                   
                                                                   
    If I were in your situation, I would:                          
                                                                   
    1. Talk to my local paint store or contact a painting contractor
       (you can usually get them to look at your house and pump them
       for info without hiring them!) to try to discover what may have
       caused the peeling.                                         
    Assuming they say it was just cheap paint or thinned paint,    
    2. Lightly sand the bare spots to remove any loose masonite-- use 
       100 or 120 grit paper.                                      
    3. Prime the bare spots with a latex primer (such as Muralo) --
       feathering the primer out onto the existing painted surface.
    4. Put two coats (do not try 1 thick coat) of good quality, latex
       house paint on the siding.                                  
                                                                   
    	BTW: On my house, I used a 4" brush with Californian       
             Hearthstone (gray) and did not see any brush marks, etc.
     
    Good luck,
    VCS                                                             

    Well, thanks everyone for the advice. After reading the replies
    in this file, talking to some other folks, and talking to paint
    places we decided to do essentialy what Van said in the last note.
    This morning I purchased some latex primer to touch up spots where
    we got down to the base Masonite, and purchased latex paint to go
    over that. We ended up buying the paint from the Franklin Paint
    factory store and we'll see eventually what kind of quality their
    paint really is.
    
    Thanks,
    Paul
    

Having painted my way though college I couldn't resist in getting in a
comment about spraying or pads.  From my experience, virtually every house
I heard of that was sprayed had to be repainted within a couple (or less)
years.  The problem being that to spray paint one needs to thin it enough to
get it through the nozzle!  If you then put it on too thick it runs.  The result
it you MUST put on a very thin coat.  Thin coat = no durability = possible 
pealing.  I think the same probably holds true for a pad.

I always use a brush and have had very good luck.  NEVER buy a cheap brush.  It
is not unreasonable to spend over $10 for a good 4 incher (unless you go to 
SPAGS where they can be had for around $7 ror $8).

Finally, to avoid brush streaks, I always paint in two steps.  First apply the
paint in any way necessary to cover what you painting.  Then, immediately go 
over it a second time in the direction of the grain to smooth out the streaks
(this translates to vertical for shingles/shakes and horizontal for clapboards).
You will not see any streaks when you're through.

-mark

    Paul & Folks,
    	Sorry for not responding to questions in .2. I've been too
    busy the last week or so to get into my "play" notebook.  
    
    My recommendation was to use akalyd paint as the only as a primer
    if you were trying to put oil over the old latex. It should work
    just as well over the bare spots as over the old latex. Alkalyd
    is nice paint, but it's a bit expensive to suggest using for a top
    coat.
                                                            
    Unfortunately I don't have a standard list of questions to ask ....
    We went through a similar problem a few years ago. I found paint
    contractors to be helpful, but very narrow in their knowledge
    of peeling problems ("Well, the *last* time I saw a house peeling
    it was because ...."). We talked with 5 different contractors
    and got 5 different theories. I found Johnson Paint Co. (corner
    of Newbury St. and Mass Ave, Boston) to be extremely knowledgeable.
    They covered the 5 scenarios described by our 5 contractors, plus
    a few more, and then tolds us how to figure out which was the
    problem and what to do about it. Johnson Paint is one of the major
    painting contractor supply houses. They know their field.
    
    We also found that the Time-Life book on painting was helpful.
    
    The two problems we settled on (gee, I wish I could be more definitive
    about it) were the classic moisture problem compounded by ice
    dams backing up and dripping down inside the walls and application
    of the last coat of paint (just 2 years previous at the time) on
    a hot sunny summer day. Evidently, if you paint in the hot sun,
    the paint does not dry properly.
    
    We solved our problems by venting, repairing facia and soffits,
    repairing the gutters and repainting on cloudy days ... of course,
    this forced us to go to the beach on the sunny days. ;^)
    
    Good luck with your project.
    
    bd

    I am in need of some advice for staining vertical siding.
    The house is 2 story (3 at the peak).  Does anyone have
    any hints on staining so that there are no overlap marks?
    Do I have to stain from top to bottom, meaning lots of
    trips up and down the ladder?
    
    Thanks -- Ellen

    
    If you're using a ladder (that is, not staging), working vertically
    really doesn't mean extra trips up the ladder. Just do what's in
    reach, and then move the ladder down, rather than over. Keep the
    current staining area within vertical detail lines, and complete
    a vertical slice once you start it, and you shouldn't have a problem
    with overlap marks.

Well, I'm about ready to begin shingling my ~20 year old house. It's got 
t-111 siding on it now. I intend to use 18" red cedar R&R shingles that 
will be dipped in clear Cuprinol as per the can's directions. All the 
trim has been repaired/replaced and repainted. So, I ask:

	1. Have any of you done such a project?
	2. What helpful hints have you?

Oh, one more thing. I CANNOT remove the rake boards so as to install the 
shingles UNDER them. I realize that butting the shingles up against the 
rake board isn't the generally accepted method, but I have no choice. 
Are there any hints for this situation?

Something I've seen done hundreds of times that makes me cringe is people
painting in the sun.  Though it probably doesn't hurt the paint (can't be
sure), it certainly makes it dry out quicker.  It is painting/staining wet
over dry that is the main cause of lap marks.

re:-1

I agree you really shouldn't have to make many trips up/down the ladder.  One
of the big causes of this is many people like to position the base of the ladder
a long way from the foundation making it impossible to reach the wall when you
climb down even a few feet.  I had always been taught to keep the ladder as
vertical as possible (within reason!) primarily to take the strain off it (I
always use wooden ladders which are probably not as strong as aluminum) and as
a side product keep you close to the wall.  It can get a little scary (I've
worked as high a 30 feet with the base of the ladder probably no further than
5 or 6 feet from the house), but if you're careful it's not all that bad.

If you're not used to spending a lot of time on a ladder you may want to
compromise and move the base out a couple of feet more to a distance where you
feel safe and can still reach a reasonable amount of wall.

-mark

I put up around 20 squares of hand split cedar shakes around 5 years ago.
Nothing could have ever prepared me for the enormity of the task.  Not 
difficult, just time consuming.  BTW, I don't know about todays prices, but
at Coldwells in Berlin, Ma, I saved around $40 per square.

Anyhow, I assume you'll be working off staging (can't imagine any other way!).

Some tools that I found invaluable:

	-	shingle hatchet.  looks like a regular hatchet only smaller.
		has a hammer on one end but I would never dream of using it
		since while nailing the blade it aimed right between your
		eyes!

	-	small block plane to square edges after trimming a shingle
		with the hatchet

	-	nail puller.  don't know what you call this but you hammer it
		under a nail and then pry the nail out.  there are always a
		couple of shingles that you have to remove for various reasons

	-	kitchen garbage can (kind that might fit under a sink) - I
		pretreated my shingles by filling the can with Cupirnol and
		dipping shinges into it.  worked real well!

	-	hot zinc dipped nails - these are really rough and hold real
		well

	-	hammer holster - if you don't have one, these are a must for
		shingling

	-	nail apron - same as hamme holster

	-	tweezers - for all the splinters you're gonna get!!!

If you want to talk in more detail, feel free to send me some mail.

-mark

    re .-1
    
    It's probably not a very good idea to limit the slope of the ladder
    just to save climbing trips, because by doing so you're cutting
    down on a margin of safety that can get especially important as
    you get tired. Most ladders (thanks to OSHA) nor have a sticker
    on them that graphically illustrated the proper slope.
    In rough terms, yo should be able to stand up straight on a rung,
    extend your arms comfortably, and be able to grasp the sides of the
    ladder. Any more lean, and you're putting too much stress on the
    ladder and too much horizontal force on its feet; any less, and
    you're inviting a tumble from dangerous heights.
    

My comment about limiting the slope certainly sounded like I was intending it
to save trips, but I was really saying it to from a safety perspective.  I
have (and always will) use wooden ladders.  My ladder is about 30-40 years old
and in top shape.  However, if I slope it too much, it will flex under my weight
and this is inviting trouble.  I had been told (and it makes sense to me), that 
by limiting the slope, ones puts a lot less tension on the ladder itself.
Also, if the slope is too great, the ladder might kick out from under you.  This
is especially true is working with a ladder on a smooth surface such as a 
sidewalk or driveway.

As to standing vertical on a ladder and extending your arms to the sides, 
wouldn't that create a slope in the 30 degree range?  If so, someone weighing
a 200 pounds would end up exerting 50-75 (can't remember the equation) pounds
of horizontal thrust!

-mark

    
    
      Hi Folks, I recently shingled my parents, seven room cape with
    a full dormer. It took a few days but with quality shingles the
    job was a breeze. I only had to trim the edge shingles. Other than
    that they were perfect.
     Any place you you butt theshingle up against something you should
    seal it with some silicone. I was told to do this around all trim
    wood and any place were the shingles met another surface. Hope this
    info helps and have fun.
    
                                                   Brian @pk

>     Any place you you butt theshingle up against something you should
>    seal it with some silicone. I was told to do this around all trim
>    wood and any place were the shingles met another surface. 

Do you seal during installation or afterwards?

    
    
     Like say around a window trim put the caulking on first then butt
    the shingles up against it. This in effect give it a weather tight
    seal. You'd be surprised were rain can get. My parents home hadn't
    been done like that originally and the wood around the windows was
    really beat. Also the trim boards that run up and down corners of
    the house are good places to caulk. I'd have to say around windows
    and doors is the most inportant though.
    
    
    
                                                    Brian @pk

I don't remember what note it was in, but there was a discussion
elsewhere on the way to properly slope a ladder. It is important
to repeat. As any firefighter can tell you....stand at the base of 
the ladder with your toes in line with the bottom of the ladder. 
If the ladder is sloped correcty, you should be able to put your 
hands out in front of you (while standing upright) and place the 
palms of your hands on a rung at somewhere around shoulder level.
Positioning the ladder at that slope give it the best stability and
ease of climb. Any steaper, you may find you and the ladder going
over backwards when you are working near the top. Any shallower,
the bottom WILL be very likely to kick out.

Bill

I'm still quite fascinated by this business about extending your hands and 
touching a rung.  Having thought about it I think I'm convinced it may apply
to the type of the ladder.

I've been on an aluminum ladder once!  I recall being about 15 or 20 feet off
the ground and almost getting blown over by a gust of wind!  Those suckers are
so light I'm sure one has to go out of their way to stabilize them.  As for the
amount of slope, they're strong enough that the amount you're suggesting is
probably safe enough.  As I said above, I've been on an aluminum ladder once,
though I had spent 7 summers during college painting houses.  Personally I
don't see why OSHA doesn't ban them.  For my money they are about the most
dangerous things there are...

Now as for a wooden ladder.  I've used ladders as big as 40 footers and if you
slope them too much, they'll bounce as you go up/down them.  However, if you 
make they fairly vertical they become very rigid.  As far as the ladders falling
backwards, they're so heavy (the big one weighs over 100 lbs) you'd have to try
real hard.  The other beauty about a wooden ladder is that you can literally
reach at least 4 feet in either direction without any fear of falling, allowing
you do as much as an 8 foot wide stip without having to move the ladder.  Again,
the weight allows you to do this.  With an aluminum ladder I wouldn't feel safe
doing much more than a 3 or 4 foot wide strip.

[enough flaming, but i just HATE aluminum ladders!]

-mark

    HAS ANYONE TRIED TO CLAPBOARD OVER ASPHALT SHINGLE?  WE HAVE A 75
    YEAR OLD BARN THAT HAS ASPHALT SHINGLE ON IT.  WE WOULD LIKE TO
    SAVE THE TIME OF STRIPPING OFF THE SHINGLE, AND JUST PUT THE PINE
    CLAPBOARD OVER IT.  DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T
    DO THAT?
    
    PAM C.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

lowercase, please...

No idea about what problems this would cause other than the fact that pine
is NOT very good stuff to make clapboards out of.  It's certainly cheaper
than cedar, but I've seen cases where it has had to be replaced in less than
10 years due to cracking, warping, etc...

-mark

    White pine also rots easily.
    
    bb

    According to Coldwell's the cedar guys are no strike/high tarrif.

    
    Does anyone know where I can get red cedar clapboards?  Anywhere
    in Massachusetts or NH.
    
    Dave
    

I got some last fall at GV Moores in Ayer (branch in Littleton also).
The Ayer number is 772-0900 (no, i didn't look it up, I just call them a 
lot).  They are not known for their prices, just their convenience.  I 
can't remember the price, but since I only bought 3 6 footers, I wasn't 
too worried about it.

-mark

    I already tried them.  Basically, I've called all the major
    lumberyards in the area.  I was just hoping someone might know
    of a place hidden away somewhere that has been hoarding it.
    I need 3800 linear feet.
     

    Try Lamson's Lumber in Hudson, Mass. - 562-3431.  I just sided an
    addition I built with some nice 3 1/2 to the weather red cedar claps
    that I got from Lamson's.  They gave me mostly 16 foot lengths,
    usually rare when you order clapboard.  Lamson's is competitively
    priced on almost all their stock lumber.....best prices in the area
    I have found.
    
    ROB

    There is a new Import Duty starting 11/1. I believe its 28%. I was
    told that the manufactures were holding back product in hopes that
    the duty will be repealed.
    
    I had to settle on Redwood. At Coldwell's I paid $.90 per surface
    foot. I could not get any cedar except finger jointed and that was
    in limited qty.
    
    Remember that coverage is Square Footage x 1.5 = Surface boards
    needed.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Howard

    	I bought some at Chairtown lumber in Gardner, Ma about a month
    	ago. Execellent quality but expensive.
    
    			Steve
    

    re: .3  Lamson's -  They don't have any (or at least said they don't)
    
    re: .4  Redwood clapboards - I might have to go with them, even
    though it won't match the rest of my house.  Concord Lumber in
    Mass offered Cyprus.  Anybody know anything about that?
    
    re: .5  Chairtown - They said they only have 3 foot lengths.
                                                           
    

    Try Gerrity lumber in the Boston area.  The account rep I used was
    named Marshall Adams, working out of Franklin/Foxboro/Attleboro/Mansfield
    area. They scouted up over 3K linear feet of bundled 4" x random
    length red clapboards for me last year.  Beautiful, quality stuff.
    
    You may have to try and get a friendly local contractor to front for
    you in purchasing this stuff, but in the quantity you're looking at
    it will be worth the effort.
    
    Make sure you use HOT Dipped galvanized nails when you install.
    The heads on the electroplated ones have absolutely no meat to them
    after one hit of a hammer, starting to rust and and stain almost
    immediately.
    
    	/roger  

    re: .7 - Gerrity - They don't have any.
    
    I think I've just about given up.  Does anybody know how
    different redwood looks from Cedar after it's been stained
    with semi-transparent dark stain. 
    I guess I'll try a small piece and find out.
                                                              

    
    Try Lancaster/Sterling Lumber in Sterling. I just bought 6200 linear
    feet at .49/foot. They just received [Tuesday- 10/21] over 60,000
    feet. But hurry it won't last at those prices!!!
    
    Charlie

    How are they pricing the siding??
    
    Howard

    They get $.49/linear foot for grade "A".
    
    Charlie

    O.K. folks lets see how we really figure prices.
    
    I needed to cover 220 sf. Boards are 6" wide with 2" overlap.
    So I needed 330 sf surface for the project. I paid $.90 per sf
    surface for the boards. So the linear price is only $.45.
    
    It's tough enough tryning to explain to people how to figure their
    needs for siding compared to roofing. Then try and price it out.
    
    BTW finger jointed Cedar [must be stained DARK or painted] is $.85
    surface sf.
    
    Howard

    Sterling lumber looks good.  I'm going to check it out this
    afternoon.  I assume pricing is done board/ft just like any other
    lumber.  For siding, 2 linear feet = 1 board ft. 
     

    Dave,
    
    That's right that 2 linear feet = 1 board ft., but don't forget
    that you will 3 linear feet to cover 1 "square foot" assuming a
    4" exposure. 
    
    Charlie

    RE .13 & .14
    
    A board foot is 12" x 12" x 1" thick or its =.
    A 2x6 8' long has 8 board feet
    A 1x6 8' long has 4 board feet
    
    Siding is sold either linear or surface square but not board foot
    because is is cut on an angle. 
    
    {I know there is an engineer out there who can tell me how many
    linear feet of siding it would take to make a board foot. Most folks
    trying to buy the stuff won't understand.}
    
    Howard

    I just purchased 400 sq ft from GV Moores in Littleton last week. 
    It cost about $600 + . They told me that Cedar siding is becoming 
    very hard to get. I got 8 inch really 7 1/2 inch wide in mixed lengths
    from 5 foot to 16 foot. 
    
    dave
    

    I had tried Moore's in Ayer but not in Littleton.
    
    Anyway, I got the clapboards delivered today from Sterling
    Lumber.
    
    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    BTW:  while I was there I saw that they have hard (yellow)
    T&G pine in various widths.  It's $1.25/ board foot. This
    might be of interest to people, because it's not always 
    easy to find.
    

    I need some help! I stained my cedar clapboard house alittle darker
    then I wanted, or should I say what my wife wanted. Anyways she
    has threaten to do me in if I don't do something about the dark
    color. I've heard that there is some kind of bleaching oil/stain
    that can be used to help lighten and speed weathering of the new
    siding. Is there such a product and has oneone used anything like
    it. 
    
    Any suggestions/opinions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
    

     Bleaching oil or bleaching stain is ONLY for previosly bare wood.
    You could put it on but it would not have the desired effect. Why
    not restain with a lighter (one your wife likes) color solid-color
    oil stain?
    
    					Kenny

    
    Yes, buy some solid-color stain in the correct shade...
    
    
    
       ... and give your wife the paint brush.

    WELL LETS HEAR IT FOR WILD BILL!!!  GO HOME TONIGHT AND CUT A NICE
    PIECE OF WOOD TO FIT THE PALM OF YOUR WIFES HAND!!  IT WILL MAKE
    A GREAT SANDING BLOCK!!  HAVE FUN HONEY!!;-)

    Thanks for the earlier suggestions. I considered solid stain but
    don't want to completely obscure the grain of the cedar siding.
    The existing stain is semi-transparent but is just to dark for our
    liking. I was hoping there was a product that would lighten existing
    stain or a ccelerate the weathering process, which in turn wouls
    lighten the general appearance. Looks like I'll just tell the old
    girl to wait around another 5 or 10 years until mother nature lightens
    it for us.
    

    You might try writing to the manufacturer and see if they have any
    ideas.  Chlorox or oxalic acid might work - try a small section -
    but I'm doubtful.
    
    Steve

    I recently saw a product at Webbers that claimed to restore
    weathered [grey] wood to it's original "wood" color. This was
    it's main claim to fame, however it also claimed that it would
    remove semi-transparent stain as well. This may only be 20th
    century snake oil, but it may be worth checking out prior to the
    divorce proceedings ;).
    
    Charlie

I recently had to wash my house to get the mildew off before restaining.
I used a mixture of TSP and Bleach!  As I washed, I noticed a fair 
amount of the previous stain came off.  In fact, the house almost looked
like it had been painted.  

HOWEVER, these were some of the worst days of my life.  It was a 
miserable job and I for one wouldn't want to imply it would even
accomplish the desired effect.  However, if you're desparate and you 
wife is willing to help if might be worth doing a single wall and 
checking the results.  

-mark

    One other thing that I forgot to mention in .6 was that this stuff
    could be applied with a sprayer attached to your garden hose. Of
    course, it will probably also defoliate all your shrubs and turn 
    your lawn a wonderful shade of black, but your stain will be off. 
    
    Hey! You can't have everything, right?
    
    Charlie

	I'm putting interior finish in a porch I built last year.  After pricing
paneling and ship-lap pine boards, it's cheaper to put in the pine.  I've 
never used ship lap pine before and have a couple of questions.  The studs are
about 18'' on center and I'm using 8'' wide boards.  Since there's large windows
all around the longest board willl only be about 25"".  Do I need to have a 
nailer for support behind each joint (every 8'')?  Do the boards get face
nailed or do you nail through the edge overlap?  If face nailed, what do you 
think of those black nails with the heavy heads that are sometimes used on 
floors?  Do these rust?

Thanks in advance for the help.

George

    Whether or not a nailer is required would depend on the orientation
    of the boards.  If you are running the boards perpendicular to the
    studs, the you don't need a nailer/strapping.  However, if you are
    running the boards parallel to the studs, then you will need to
    add a nailer.  This is particularly true for long boards.
    
    You mention that the longest board is about 25".  Is this the distance
    from the sill/sole plate to the header (under the window)?  If it
    is, the you could probably leave out the strapping (when running
    parallel).
    
    One more thing to consider.  If you do find yourself having to include
    a nailer/strapping, remember that this will increase the effective
    thickness of the wall.  This may require some adjustments of any
    window or door frames present in the room.
    
    As for nailing, I prefer to hide the nails rather than have them
    exposed.  Thus requiring the nails to go through the edge joint
    and then followed up with the trusty nail-set.
    
    - Mark

    For those of us who are 'wood lingo' dummys, what is ship lap boards?

Ship lap has rabbets along each side like so:


		_________________
		|               |
	     ___|            ---
	    |________________|

    George, I just finished installing knotty pine planking in my breezeway
    this winter, wasn't cheap but the end result was nice. Make sure
    you stain the boards before putting them up, also you will need
    to extend out all electrical boxes, 3/4'' without strapping, 1 1/2''
    with. I had to buy electrical box extensions, I got them at Marlboro
    Electric supply.

Re: Note 940.1 

    
>>  One more thing to consider.  If you do find yourself having to include
    a nailer/strapping, remember that this will increase the effective
    thickness of the wall.  

  	I don't understand why this would be so.  I will probably add a
    nailer parallel to the floor between the studs this won't increase the 
    thickness at all.  Do you mean nailed across the studs rather than 
    between them?  Is there a benefit to doing it this way?

>>  As for nailing, I prefer to hide the nails rather than have them
    exposed.  Thus requiring the nails to go through the edge joint
    and then followed up with the trusty nail-set.

	Are pilot holes necessary to keep from splitting the wood when nailing
    so close to the edge?

Thanks
    

< Note 940.4 by PLANET::WHITBY >

>>...also you will need to extend out all electrical boxes, 3/4'' without 
     strapping, 1 1/2'' with. 

	As in my response to .1 I guess I'm getting my terms mixed up.  What 
is considered strapping and what is it's purpose?  Does it differ from adding a 
"nailer"?

George

    Strapping is 1"x 3" boards nailed horizontally across your 2 x 4's,
    needed if you install your boards vertically. Probably the same
    thing as the nailer you refer to.

    RE: .5
    
    	The reason I mentioned about the thickness is that most people
    	will find it MUCH easier to nail the strapping across the studs
    	rather than fit it between the studs.
    
    	The family room I'm building has almost a complete redwood (T&G)
    	interior.  Since the planks are parallel to the studs and rafters,
    	I'd go crazy (more so than I already am) in short order if I had
    	to fit a nailer between the studs.
    
    	So far, I haven't had to use any pilot holes.  But then, I'm
    	putting up 1x6 T&G redwood, so I have a fair amount of wood
    	through which I can nail.  If I were using oak or some other
    	hardwood, I would probably have to use pilot holes.
    
    RE: Strapping vs nailer
    
    	As far as I know, a nailer is simply a piece of wood that is
    	used to back up another piece that is being nailed.  Strapping
    	(usually 1x3 strips) is simply a specific application of a
    	nailer.
    
    RE: Outlet extensions
    
    	I was faced with this problem also.  However, I did not like
    	the idea of using extensions.  Instead, I nailed a 2x4 between
    	the desired studs, and then screwed the box onto this 2x4 with
    	pan head screws.  Worked out quite well, and they are VERY secure.
    
    - Mark

I just did a cellar wall with V-Groove which has all the problems (amd more)
or shiplap.

Not wanting to nail strapping on top of the studs AND not wanting to put blocks
between the studs, I simply cut notches into each stud and set the strapping in
the notches.

Big job you ask?  not at all...

	tack a piece of strapping to the studs to use as a guide for a 
	circular saw.  

	set your circular saw depth to the depth of the strapping

	cut across all the studs in one swell foop

	lower the strapping and make a second cut such that you define the width
	of the strapping

	now use the circular saw to make multiple cuts between the two other
	cuts

	clean up with a chisel

	you DO have to cut the notches with a chisel on the end studs

	set strapping into notches and nail

It took me no more than 15 minutes to notch about 15 studs in two places.

Also note that this method eliminates the need for strapping at the top and
bottom since the plates now become your nailer.

I don't see how how you can avoid nail holes.  with shiplap, only one edge is
ever hidden.  if you HAVE to hide nail heads you can use V-Groove and nail it
backwards since the back is NOT grooved. 


			outside
	    _____________________________________
	___|         ___|         ___|        ___|
	|____________|____________|___________|
	 ^            ^            ^
	 |            |            |
	 |            |            |
	nails: notice that only the left side of any board is secure!

If using V-Groove, I wouldn't use anything much wider than 6"-8" because you
won't get a whole lot of holding power on wide boards only nailed at the edges.
If you're top nailing, make them as wide as you like. 


-mark

btw - I had to predrill all my holes in the pine because the tongues are only
1/4 thick and split VERY easily.  solution -- cut the head off a nail and use
it as a drill

	Is the 1X3 strapping used to nail into or just for support?  It seems
like it would be too flexible to use to nail the boards to.

George

    RE: .10
    
    	I used the 1x3 for both nailing and support.  In my case, though,
    	I am putting the strapping up 12" O.C. (Since the redwood comes
    	in 1 foot increments.)  Coupled with 16" O.C. for the studs,
    	the whole thing is really very sound.
    
    	Actually, the only area that is really 16" O.C. is the roof.
    	The remainder of the walls have enough windows that there are
    	only one or two spans on the wall that are a full 16".  Most
    	are around 8" - 12" (because of all the trimmer & jack studs).
    
    - Mark

    RE: -.3 or soooo; Mr. Improvisio...
    
  The idea of notching the studs w/ the circular saw appeals to me.
    
    I've been draggin' my feet in completing my workshop 'cause my
    intension is to put rough shiplap or v-groove pine parallel to
    the studded wall, thus requiring nailers (or fire stops) mid-way
    between the floor and the ceiling. This takes time and isn't a real
    glamorous job.......till you sit back at the end of a day with
    a beer in hand admiring the finished job. But it takes till the
    end of the day to get there. 
    
    The idea of nailing the strapping to the otside of the studs saves
    time but you loose a little area and the problem w/ the electrical boxes....
    
    The notched stud idea   (you really ought to patent this one) 
    allows you to extend the electrical boxes beyond the studs only
    the thickness of the sheetrock + the thickness of the shiplap pine ect.

    Since we're here.....What do you think about the rough sawed pine
    in a workshop....I mean with saw dust and all. Is the smooth pine
    preferred in this type of setting. I'm looking for the cheapest
    solution. I realize the appearence is ones own choice...but I'm
    wondering weather or not the sawdust gets into the rough stuff over 
    time...etc. Any comments here?
    
    MArk

    Anyone care to offer advice on house siding?  My requirements
    are
    
    1) No vinyl
    2) No aluminum
    3) NO VINYL
    4) no brick or stone veneer
    5) NO VINYL!
    
    
    I.e., I'm wondering about the merits and relative
     costs of various kinds of wood siding.

What kind of siding looks good depends a lot on the style of the house.  Some 
houses just NEED clapboards, or at least shingles.  Others BEG for vertical 
siding.  So part of your decision is probably already made.  Also, are you 
planning on painting this siding, or leaving it natural?

We sided our house two years ago, and these were the options we looked into.
Prices are only approximate, from memory, for about 3200 sq ft of siding.

Rough sawn pine, board and batten		$1100
Rough sawn pine, shiplap			$1800
Pine clapboards					$2000
Vertical 1x6 t&g knotty redwood, on special	$2600	(what we wound up with)
Cedar clapboards				$3500
Vertical clear cedar or redwood		       $10000

I have no idea why vertical clear siding is so expensive, but if anything, it 
(and the other cedar prices, including shingles) are probably more because of 
the stupid trade war with Canada.

In short pine is cheap, but cedar is better.

Also, try dir/key=siding to find other notes on this subject.

Paul

Has anybody had any experience with reusing clapboards?  I hate the thought
of going out and buying new ones when the ones I have to remove from my back
wall are in perfect condition.

I've tried prying them off, but the insist on splitting at the nails OR the 
nails simply pull through leaving big holes.  My next strategy is to try and
saw the nails in half with a hacksaw blade after lifting the clapboard every so
little.  I'm not very optimistic that this will work.

Are there any specialty tools made for this particular task?

-mark

    I was going to re-use my clapboards last summer.  Good idea, but
    I ended up buying new ones.  It was just too much work.  
    
    BTW, there are non-wood clapboards available.  I've had GOOD luck
    with them if you keep 'em painted.
    
    ....bill

    I was able to gently remove a bunch of cedar clapboards using a
    flat, wide pry bar.  If I slid it up gently (well, relatively gently) 
    from below and got the nail in the notch, I could lift nail and
    board together without splits or pull-throughs.  It didn't work
    on all of them, but I managed to get 80% off in reusable condition.
    
    /Dave
        

I sided my last house with hand-cut/resawn cedar shakes.  I loved them, though
they were a MAJOR operation to put on.  I wouldn't have thought it possible, but
I once timed myself doing a section about 12X6 and it took nearly a full day!
And that was after I had gotten pretty good at it.  NOTHING about them is square
and they even vary in thickness, but they look soooo good.

As I recall, I paid around $54 a square (good for around 70 squage feet) but I
suspect they're a lot closer to $80 or $90 by now.

-mark

re: < Note 1048.2 by ULTRA::BUTCHART >

>                        If I slid it up gently (well, relatively gently) 
>    from below and got the nail in the notch, I could lift nail and
>    board together without splits or pull-throughs. 

Would it work to do the same thing, only instead of prying, tap the pry
bar from the bottom with a hammer to cut the nail??? 

    I've taken down a few and from what I remember, it wasn't bad. I
    believe we started from the top by slipping a hacksaw blade under
    the next lower row. Cut the nails fairly easily, then after the
    top row was off, the rest of the nails could be extracted by normal
    methods. 
    
    Maybe I just dreamt it was easy! My father dropped a hammer on my
    head during that last siding job and my memory hasn't been quite
    the same.
    

This may seem like a dumb question, but if you have clapboards that are good
enough to be reused, why do you want to take them off?

Jim...

-mark

    Dont laugh too hard but...
    
    I removed a whole lot of clapboards in about 20 minutes one day
    last summer at a friends house in Vt.  The clapboards were about
    100 years old, in perfect condition, and we just slipped a the blade
    end of a long handled shovel under them and gave a tug.  Sure we
    broke a couple, but 90% of them came off without a hastle.
    
    Beware, our success may be more related to the quality of the material
    that we were removing than the validity of the technique.... I'm
    not sure how it would work on knotty pine (ours was clear) or on
    cedar.
    - Rick

    
    	After numerous $1200 paint jobs I have decided to refinish
    	the siding on my home right. The siding is cedar strips, about
    	5 inches wide, and was originally covered with brown Cabots
    	OVT. (OVT is cabots paint/stain which is really more paint than
    	stain, and more of a pain in the neck than any thing else) At
    	any rate the OVT was covered with grey stain about eight years
    	ago and it has bi anually required recoating because nothing
    	seems to stick to the OVT. I have had two professionals look
    	at it and they both concure on this prognosis. At any rate the
    	question now is what to do with the siding.
    
    		1. Sandblast the house
    
    		2. Flip the siding
    
    		3. Resided the house
    
    	The siding on the house is original, and about 30 years old...
    	but still in good condition. I have no experience with sand-
    	blasting and would appreciate any info on peoples experiences
    	with this solution. (one sandblaster estimated the job at $7k)
    	Is flipping the siding a viable option?? The house is about
    	3200 square feet and is 2 stories.
    
    /Kevin
    

Hmmm...

I have some Cabots OVT on my house and although I too would prefer real stain,
I can't complain about what I have.  It's great stuff.  Goes on well, covers 
well and is extremely durable.

When I did my house this past summer, I had mildew.  This meant I had to scrub
my house (took several full days!) with a mixture of bleach and TSP (tri-sodium
phosphate - available at any hardware store (or SPAGS)).

There was absolutely NO problem with adhesion.  If yours isn't sticking and all
the professionals you ask say it's because of the OVT, I'd say:

	o	get a real professional

	o	better yet, call CABOTS and ask them (that's what customer
		services departments are for)

	o	there's a paint store in Lincoln that's a CABOT's distributer.
		call them (they were very helpful to me)

-mark

Regarding Cabot's (OVT ??) - I have an old red barn which I will be improving
this Summer. The North side is to be completely replaced and stained (not red),
and the other 3 will be re-painted/re-stained. I'd like to match the appearance
of the existing sides with that of the new side, and am looking for something
which will cover the paint, and have the characteristics of stain (i.e. doesn't
peel, is absorbed by the wood, etc.).

Will Cabot's cover the existing paint and match the appearance of the stained
side ? If not, are there other products which will ?

Thanks,
Russ

As mentioned earlier, Cabot's OVT is closer to paint than stain.  I'm not
really sure of the difference.

As far as covering, I had a blue-gray house that I restained a very close
shade of gray.  I had replaced a couple of clapboards with some used ones from
a neighbor that were dark gray!  I fugured if it didn't cover I'd spring the
extra $$$ for new ones.  Lo and behold, you cannot tell where they were.

In other words, it does a real nice job of covering, but remember, I did 2 
coats.

-mark

     My problem is this. The front of my house is exposed to extreme
    sunlight causing the red cedar shakes to "bleed" through the solid color
    stain that I applied 2 years ago. The house now looks dirty from
    the cedar oils on the stain.

     Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening again
    when I re-stain this year. It's really frustrating to spend all
    that time staining only to have it last looking good for a year
    or so.

     - mike g.

     

I imagine the shakes should be sealed or use a stain that specifically
says it will prevent bleeding.

-mark

    I had  my house in Needham sandblasted (We've since gotten much smarter 
    and moved to  NH  ;-}),  and  it  came out fairly well.  It was a house 
    about 40+ years old  at the time, and had cedar shingles.  The paint on 
    them was unbelievable!  The  prior  owners had obviously put latex over 
    oil, and the paint was flaking, chipping, and just a general mess.  The 
    paint buildup was unbelievable!  To make  matters  worse,  a  part-time 
    "painter" from the local fire department had "painted"  the  house, and 
    used  a  rotary  sander!   So there were obvious  swirl  marks  on  the 
    shingles.  What was a harried homeowner to do?  Blast it!
    
    I left for a visit with my Canadian relatives while  it  was  done.  My 
    long-suffering  spouse  felt like she was at the beach.  The  sand  got 
    everywhere!  A few of my windows got etched in the corners, but nothing 
    serious.    Even  though the crew doing the work was very careful, sand 
    still came  "through  the  cracks".    And,  the bottom of the shingles 
    didn't come clean \
                       \
                      --
                      ^
                      |in here.
                      
    Sandblasting creates interesting  effects  in  the  wood,  depending on 
    whether the wood is hard or soft in spots.
    
    After I returned, I  did  the  house in Cabot stain, believe I used the 
    solid.  Looked great!
    
    You can do it yourself.    But you need the right kind of sand (believe 
    it's called "Black Beauty").  And,  you  have  to  mask  everything you 
    don't want blasted.  Be prepared for "true grit" too :-(
    
         Bill
         

	How do you strip the corrugated type cedar shakes 
	(the grooved kind) ? My house is about 30 years old,
	I bought it 3 years ago. It has at least three coats of
	paint on it with the last being latex. The paint is curling
	up in the grooves. I'll be 90 before I could route each groove
	with a knife, I can't afford sand blasting. Someone said I
	can rent a water blaster that might work, any ideas ?
	Has anyone else prepped this type of shake before ?
	Any advice on priming ?

	Mike

    
    
    	Try using a good stiff steel brush.  It's a lot of work but
    this is the method that I have always used and I have seemed to
    get good results.  The secret is that the little metal bristles
    can get into each groove without damaging the cedar shakes.
    
    	For a primer, I have always used an oil base primer and if you
    buy it from a respectable paint store they can tint the primer so
    that it is almost the same shade as your finish coat.
    
    mark  

< Note 1323.0 by 3D::SULLIVAN >
                     -< Prepping/painting grooved shakes >-

Re: .0

	My parents had corrugated shakes about the same vintage as your
	house, which I had the dubious job of prepping some years ago.
	I am also in the process of painting my house which is approximately
	60 year old cedar shingle.

	So to put my 2 cents in...A Heavy wire hand brush for tight corners
	preferably with a scraper blade to get in by mouldings is a must.
	A technique which I have just tried and worked very well was to get
	a 6 inch COARSE wire wheel and chuck it in my drill.  Working across
	the shingles with the wheel held at a forty-five degree angle did
	a very satisfactory job of removing the loose paint.  I would think
	that this would also work very well for shakes.  I had considered
	using one of those wire flap type paint removers but was afraid that
	I would end up removing too much of the wood as well.  Total investment
	about $6.50 for the wheel and $3.00 for the arbor, had the drill,
	about 16 hours of time to strip approximately 1200 square feet of 
	shingles (two sides of the house were REAL badly alligatored) your
	time will depend on condition also.

	On the point of safety:  Wire wheels will loose some of their wires
	during use and the paint chips and just can be an aggravation too.
	Purchase a full face shield instead of using goggles.  You can probably
	get by without a dust mask using the shield, I did.  The advantages
	are you are pretty completely protected and the face shield won't 
	steam up on you like goggles do.  I'm also not wild about eating paint
	which I didn't with this method.  There is some room at the side so 
	if you do anything directly overhead be extra careful.
	
	You don't mention how bad the current paint is or how old.  My house
	hadn't been painted in approximately 20 years.  I opted to prime the
	whole thing first so I would have a good solid base coat.  I have
	been very happy with Glidden paints.  Glidden makes an oil base
	primer that is specifically designed to work with either latex or
	oil base topcoats.  I like the idea of an oil base paint for a 
	primer especially where bare wood or new wood is concerned.  Two 
	walls of my garage are primer only (hope to finish soon) and have
	stood up to the past two New England winters and hurricane with no
	problems!  Also where they have been topcoatd (Glidden latex, after
	all I'm not completely a masochist) they have stood up with no 
	problems.  Incidentally I also brush the primer and first topcoat
	on, following coats are sprayed.  If you decide to spray the primer
	I would recommend two coats instead of one, I tried spraying the 
	garage and although it worked satisfactorily it did have to have two
	coats.  Then again it was new wood.

	One more thing before I get off my soap box.  When you prime be 
	absolutely sure the wood is dry and its not to humid,  latex is 
	somewhat tolerant to this but oil is very susceptible.

	No I don't work for Glidden paints...

	Good Luck - Randy

    I have a house that has 1" pine board for siding.  There are some
    cracks in some of the boards, and I would like to fix them before
    winter arrives. Does anyone have any experience with any outdoor
    puttys for this reason?
    
    Thanks,

    I recently painted my house, and also fixed some cracks in the
    6" clapboards.  I was too lazy to replace the clapboards, and
    afterwards realized I should have replaced some of them.  Anyways,
    I used external spackling compound (about $3 a can at Spags), and
    just sanded it after drying.  It worked real well on nail holes,
    and gouged areas to fill them up, but tended to "bleed" through
    the paint (primer + overcoat) a few days later.  I'm not sure why
    this happened, because the spackling dried several days before
    being painted.  
    
    Other than that, the stuff is easy to work with, and sands real
    smooth with minimal effort
    
    Scott

    How about that spray foam insulation?  It claims to be paintable
    after it cures.  Spray it in, let in cure, trim with a razor and
    paint it.  Sounds too easy.  Something must wrong.
    
    Phil

    
    	I've used the DAP Latex caulk to seal cracks...can paint right
    	over it...even when its wet, providing you're using Latex paint.
    
    	...nothin' is permanent tho, cause the wood "works"
    
    				___GM___
                                        

    Anyone out there have any experience with clapboard?  I checked
    the stuff out at SL and it looks nice.
    
    Specifically, how does it look (compared to paneling)?  How difficult
    was it to put up?  Are there any tricks?  What kind of nails did
    you use?
    
    Any suggestions/comments are appreciated!
    
    
    - Chris
    

Well... I'm just about done with the house painting and thought that I would
share my experiences with anyone who cares (or Randy won't give me any more
tips). 

I rented the pressure washer from Taylor rental for about $70. It has a large
single cylinder gas engine and a hydraulic pump that puts out about 2200 psi !
It has a 50 foot high pressure hose with a gun and trigger business end.
You plug in your garden hose and WATCH OUT ! 

It comes with 4 spray tips ranging from 0 to 30 degrees, the 0 degree tip can
cut concrete, the 15 or 20 seems more useful. The system is best for washing
the house and removing LOOSE paint. It can remove all the paint but you will
damage the wood and or drown the house, it will chew gouges in the shingles if
you are not careful. There is a separate attachment that allows you to spray a
mix of TCP from a pale that will feed into the main stream but you have
to do this as a separate pass as it uses a different low pressure tip.

It will do most of the work but you still have to go back and scrape the loose
edges. 

If you get one you will need a large station wagon or a truck. It's on wheels
and takes two people to load/unload it (or just one if your wife is mad at you
and you want to get a hernia to make her feel bad). 

Watch out when using it on a ladder as it has about a 20 pound kick (I nearly
fell off !). Also, you and the house will get very wet. 

I did a lot of caulking with GE II paintable silicone... great stuff but the
paintable stuff shed the paint just as well as the regular stuff. I think it
worked a little better when I primed just after applying it (still mushy). I
paid $5 a pop for about 8 plugs a week before it was on sale at Rich's for
$2.99 with a $2 rebate (&%$#^%&^^). 

I had hoped to do the house with a single airless sprayer coat, but alas
the sprayer doesn't really work in the paint like a brush does. So I
decided to bush in a prime coat and then spray on the finish coat

I used a Wagner pro 200 and it worked just fine.       
It's very fast and accurate and you get used to the weight (I can now crush
volkswagons in my right hand) if you break up the job over a few days or take
breaks every half hour (it won't clog up if not used for 20 min or so). 
Other people have said that airless sprayers put down less paint and need
more coats, I found the opposite, if you use the recommended cross hatch
technique it puts down a lot of paint and one coat is fine.
For eaves and hard to get at stuff it's super. As to spattering, 1) don't let
the paint can get less than half full 2) replace the atomizer thingy every few
gallons or when it starts to spatter for no apparent reason. 
    
The clean up is a pain in the bum, but once you get the knack it can be done in
15 min. I would not want to try the clean up with oil paint, when cleaning up
latex I used LOTS of water to flush the tube and other parts. 
    
Make sure that everything is all ready to paint so you don't have to stop for
more than a few short breaks or you will have to clean the gun. 

I bought the 0.8 mm latex tip and thinned each gallon with about one cup of
water and a turbo attachment on my drill to mix it (best $2 I ever spent).  


    
   OK Randy ?
    
    Mike
    

>    Anyone out there have any experience with clapboard?  I checked
>    the stuff out at SL and it looks nice.
    
>    Specifically, how does it look (compared to paneling)?  How difficult
>    was it to put up?  Are there any tricks?  What kind of nails did
>    you use?
    
I'm not sure what kind of paneling you are referring to when you want to 
compare it to clapboards. I have re-clapboarded my entire house and have 
*lots* of experience with clapboards for outside application, including how 
to hang a 12-14' clapboard all by myself while up on the ladder. Will be 
happy to expound/expand further if exterior clapboard is what you are 
doing.    

Difficulty of application is not bad. you are not dealing with much weight, 
just some fine fitting and sometimes some long pieces. Basic tools were a 
fine tooth backsaw for trimming, a block plane set fine and razor sharp, a 
good 16 oz hammer, level, homemade guage to set each board with the same 
amount of exposure as the others, and _lots_ of patience......8^)

Nails were generally 7d box, galvanized. Get GOOD galvanized nails, if they 
ain't rough and sharp, they are just plated and will not last. Slumberville 
has only the poorly galvanized nails from what I have ever found. I got the 
better grade of nails at my local lumber yard.

If you want comments on all my tricks and short cuts, please reply and I 
will enter it here.

Vic

     Re: .1
    Sure!  Let us know how you did it.  About the only thing I know
    about putting up clapboards is that you're supposed to pre-measure
    the side of the house so you get convenient alignment at the tops
    and bottoms of window frames, and don't end up needing skinny strips
    to fill in.

    Re: .1
    
    Thanks for the info!  Any additional insights would be appreciated.
    Maybe I'm way off base here, but I was going to clapboard an *inside*
    room.  I'd heard (or thought I'd heard!) someone telling me they
    either did or were going to use clapboard for a den.  (Unfortunately
    I can't remember where I heard it ...)
    
    Again, thanks for the reply.
    
    - Chris
    

    RE: .3
    
    	I'm doing up the inside of a family room I'm building with T&G
    	red cedar.  A little different, but not much.  I'll be happy
    	to answer any questions I can.
    
    -Mark

    My parents have cedar siding on the inside walls of there house,
    entry way, living room (only one wall), and dining room (again only
    one wall).  I think it looks great.  I think a lot of it has to
    do with the house having a very open floor plan, but in a large
    room it can look great. 
    
    The only maintenance that I know of that my father has done since
    it was installed was that he waxed it a few years ago (not shiney,
    just enough to brighten it up.)  BTW, it was installed some 31 odd
    years ago!
    
    

    I have a house where *all* interior walls are red cedar 1x8 T&G,
    including closet interiors.
    
    I did it out of spite and frustration over many years of trying
    to do decent sheetrock jobs of various types, and never being satisfied
    with the results.
    
    It takes a while to put up, but when it's up, it's finished.  No
    taping, no goop, no sanding, no painting, no wallpapering, no staining.
    
    Also happy to answer any questions about application, hints, tricks,
    etc.
    
    Jim
    

    
>    Thanks for the info!  Any additional insights would be appreciated.
>    Maybe I'm way off base here, but I was going to clapboard an *inside*
>    room.   
    
Ok, that is what I read between the lines of your initial request, but I 
just had not ever seen it done or thought about clapboarding an inside 
room. So, here are my comments now that I understand the game plan.

    First, I would have reservations about doing it because of the fine 
splinters in the clapboards. You can buy them smooth, or use the "aye" 
grade, whatever the heck that is, with the smooth side out, but be careful 
that all the edges are smooth. I can't say the SL stuff was smooth enough 
for that kind of application, even on the smooth side. the edges were still 
splintery. These splinters are painful and hard to get out because the wood 
is fine and soft once under your skin. (Maybe I just have baby smooth 
skin?)

    General comments on hanging the stuff on any wall, inside or out.

1. cut your angles first, then square your other end and hang that board 
first. I have a gambrel house and had lots of angles on the ends to cut 
first.

2. Assume the ends of the boards are not square. they are not and you will 
end up squareing each one. I used a fine backsaw and a benchook setup to do 
it, rather than a circular saw. (Glutton for punishment. but I didn't want 
to drag the table saw out of cellar to garage. Small 8" portable may help 
with this if you havea fine tooth blade.)

3. if you are working by yourself, start from top edge and work down. 
Totally backwards from conventional thinking but you use the top board as a 
full length clamp to hold your next board in place. You can then adjust the 
exposure of the board to match the rest, level it, and nail at your 
leisure. Otherwise, assume 3-4 hands on two ladders to hang anything over 
6-8' lengths.

4. use a bench knife for marking your cuts. much finer line and you can get 
a better fit. 

5. cut your board about 1/32" longer than you need and press fit it for a 
really tight fit. (sounds good in theory, I had a heck of a time getting it 
right!)

6. You will make an average of three trips up/down the ladder for each 
board hung. thats the bad news...... the good news is, you will never again 
be bothered by ladder work because you will get so used to it! 8^)

7. get a set of ladder extenders for the top of your ladder. these are the 
things that area giant U for the top that extend the width of the resting 
points to 4' instead of 18". They REALLY give you a steady ladder and make 
things work easier. Also excellent for painting, working on gutters, 
anywhere that your ladder is unsteady. (mine is unsteady everywhere except 
laying on its side in the garage...)

That is about all I have for pearls of wisdom. If I think of any more I 
will pass them on.

Good luck.

Vic H

    
    
    
    
    1) a question for the author of .6 - who has done all interrior
    with ceder rather than sheetrock- 
          
           The cost. How did it compare to what it would have cost using
    sheetrock? ( sheetrock, tape, joint compound, paint..etc.)
            Was it still nessesary to put up moldings ?
    
    
    
    
    2) Could somebody give me there opinions of the different grades
    of exterior red cedar clapboards.
        Should I spend the extra money on grade A or would I be wiser
    to buy the lower grades and cut out the nots and imperfections?
    
    

                   	-< Grade A vrs. grade C >-    


	   I will soon be installing red cedar clapboard sidding on
	my house and would like some advise on how to select the sidding.
	   
	   I've been told that there are differant grades of sidding
        (A,B,C) which also reflects the price paid for it.

	   Is it reccommended to go with the best grade or should I go with
        a lesser grade and cut out the imperfections?
       
        Would a installing a lesser grade effect the end results?

   	Any advise?

    Will you be applying it rough side out?  If so you can use the B
    or C grade.  Siding is graded on the smooth side.  They don't look at
    the rough side at all to grade it.  

    B grade has some, but very few knots.  With B grad, it's possible to
    cut out the knots with very little wasted wood.  A grade has very few 
    imperfections on the smooth side.  If you're going to apply it smooth
    side out, but stain it dark, you still don't need grade A.  The dark 
    stain would hide the imperfections anyway.

With siding in general, what are the advantages and disadvantages of vertical
vs. horizontal siding?

Jim.

    
    
    	re .2
    
    	Horizontal siding is easier to install.  You can use clap board
    	and work your way up the side of the house.  Vertical siding
    	usually requires using a V-groove siding which is more $$,
    	it is also harder to install because you cannot work your
    	way evenly up the side of the house.
    
    	Tony/

re .1

        Yes I will be applying the rough side out.  The stain I intend on using
 is a clear stain/preserve.
 
        So I guess the Grade B might be my best bet. You think Grade C may 
have too much waste?



re .2

< With siding in general, what are the advantages and disadvantages of >
vertical  vs. horizontal siding? >

	   I have ship lap pine siding(vertical) on my present home, I'm 
building an addition which will be done in red cedar clapboards. Eventually
I will be replacing the ship lap with cedar. The pine looks good but my 
personal preference is for the cedar.
	If you intend to install pine siding I would suggest that you shellac
all the knots before applying your finish.
This appearently wasn't done on my house and after a year or two the knots 
blead through the stain.

	   By vertical siding I assume you mean pine, either ship lap or 
	pine boards with bats, and horizontal being cedar ?


     Vertical (pine)
          - cheaper,
          - easier to install, seeing these are generally wider 
            than the cedar installation should be easier and take less 
            time.

     Horozontial (cedar)
          - life expectantcy is probably longer than pine
          - increased resale value of home

         Appearence of the two is a consideration. the vertical sidding may 
look great on a contemporary home but may not do justice to an older 
colonial home. I guess it's just a mater of personal preference.           

    Re: .2
    In general, I'd say horizontal is more weatherproof.  Because of
    the overlap, water has to run UP to get in.  With vertical siding, 
    the water only has to run sideways to get in a joint, which it can 
    do if there is a strong wind.
    
    From an aesthetic standpoint, I think vertical siding looks terrible
    compared to horizontal clapboards, but that's purely personal opinion.

    Our last home had shiplap vertical siding, our new one has clapboards.
    The only "advantage" to vertical is that is cheaper.  Besides being
    less resistant to wind and rain, it warps along the vertical axis
    and exposes the underlayer of [whatever].  It also serves as an
    interstate highway for ants and all other forms of vermin.
                        
    pbm
    

re: 4

DO NOT USE A CLEAR PRESERVATIVE for red cedar.  Red cedar "bleeds" and with
a clear preservative you will get ulgy red blotches.  If you want to use
red cedar you must use at least a semi-transparent stain to cover the bleeding
which will occur.

White cedar does not bleed and therefore can be stained with just a preservative
to maintain that natural wood texture and color.

-peter

    
    	With all the talk about finishes over western red cedar siding,
    	not once was linseed oiled mentioned. Is there a problem with
    	oil on cedar? I think it darkens the wood a bit, but the
    	results I imagine would be more consistent in color. I know	
    	of a house which has been done in oil (not red cedar, but dark
    	brown in color shakes) and it always comes out great. Anyone
    	out there oil their cedar siding?
    
    John//

    Does anyone know where I could find some 10" pine clapboards?
         
    I'll be removing a door, replacing it with a window, and i'll need
    a small quantity to patch the siding.  pine would be acceptable,
    I'd think, since it will be covered with solid stain.
    
    The only thing I've been able to find locally (Concord, N.H.) is
    redwood,at 1.62 per linear foot, which is much too expensive for
    me.  According to the guy who owns the place across the street from
    me which manufactures clapboards, the damand for this size is so
    small, it isn't worth it for him to mill them.  Apparently everyone
    else thinks this way also, since a local contractor i spoke with
    said he and his customer called every place within a 40 mile radius
    of concord without success when faced with the same problem.
    
    Any pointer towards a source would be appreciated.
    
    Steve.

    I was just looking at a new house and the spec sheet said it
    had Cypress siding rather than Cedar (or Fir).  I asked the builder
    why and he said recently it has been very difficult to get Cedar
    or that it was extremely expensively as of late.
    
    He said Cypress is comparable to Cedar but probably not as good.
    I've seen Cypress used in the south alot but never around here (New
    England).
    
    Anyone ever heard of it?  How well would it hold up in New England?
    
    -al

    I've heard they use cypress for greenhouses, and that it's very
    rot-resistant.  Otherwise, I don't know much about it.  

    You were informed correctly.....
    
    Cedar comes mostly from Canada...I hear...and strikes within the
    past year or two have driven its price up or in some cases made
    cedar unavailable. Cypress is a close substitute.
    
    john mollica

    Lots of old houses used cypress for ground-contact purposes in the
    years before pressure-treated lumber.   It is also used for framing
    in some old places - I believe it is much stronger than cedar (which
    isn't particularly relevant for siding purposes).
    

    Cypress is also harder than cedar which should make it more durable.
    It is used alot where resistance to rot is required and I seem to
    remember it is more rot resistant than redwood.
    
    -j
    

    The previous owner of my house soaked all the red cedar shingles
    in Cuprinol for 24 hours before installing them and, other then
    darkening somewhat, have remained in excellent condition.  This
    was done about 7-8 years ago.  Any inconsistency in color is due
    to exposure; that is, the west side of my house is lighter than
    the north side.
    
    I think oiling is great - no painting!!!
    
    Sue
    

	
	Don't use straight linseed oil.	

	A neighbor of mine did this once.  It looked absolutely beautiful
	for about a year or two-then the mildew came and came and came.
	They had someone come out and bleach off the mildew with some 
	success and then re-"oiled" it with Cuprinol or some such.

	If you're going to use linseed oil then add a mildewcide to it 
	(available in your better paint stores).  Simpler is to use 
	Cuprinol or the like which is a mixture of oils and has mildewcide
	already in it.

    Try Hirsch Lunber Townsend Ma.  They carry alot of odd pine stuff.
    
    Good luck
    

    I have also heard that cypress ia hard to find - at least old cypress.
    I read an article a while back that said that people were dredging
    up (large) old cypress trees from swamps in the south and selling
    the wood for big bucks.  Talk about rot resistance.
    
    Rich

    My brother built his A frame using cypress. He lives in Fla. and
    bought cypress that was growing in a swamp. He and his sons cut the
    wood from the swamp. (nice to have the equipment) After the wood
    was dried  (well sort of) they cut and milled it to spec. and built
    the house. I was told that it should not rot for several generations.
    
    Now if I could only get him to bring a few loads up North, I'll use
    our shingle machine and make a bundle (pardon the pun).
    
    Jim             who's jealous of his 29' ceiling and 85'porch/w
                    hot tub.

    
    Who ever heard of anyone replacing a door with a window?  Don't
    you think it's going to be a wee bit harder getting in and out
    of the house?  Well, if you insist on making all this extra work
    for yourself, then I'd like to suggest going to SPAGS.  That's
    right, Spags, they have enormous shutters that will cover any
    inperfections you may inflict upon your home.  They also sell
    exterior spackle in 50 gallon drums so you can form your own
    clapboards of any size.  
    
    On a more serious note... Have you checked into pressboard clapboards?
    I'm not sure about the availability but they would definately be
    cheaper.  
    
                Good Luck Hoser,
    
                                Dave

    

    
  >  Who ever heard of anyone replacing a door with a window?  Don't
  >  you think it's going to be a wee bit harder getting in and out
  >  of the house?  

    
    Who said we wanted to get out of the house?
    
    
  >    On a more serious note... 
    
    uhuh...
    
  >    Have you checked into pressboard clapboards?    
    
    
    shortly after i entered this not, i discovered that i can purchase
    12" masonite clapboards at a place in manchester... since i have
    solid color stain on the outside of the house, this will probably
    look ok, but i still "shutter" at the thought of not using real
    wood.   ( insert smiley face here   )
     
   

>  >    Have you checked into pressboard clapboards?    
>    
>    
>    shortly after i entered this not, i discovered that i can purchase
>    12" masonite clapboards at a place in manchester... since i have
>    solid color stain on the outside of the house, this will probably
>    look ok, but i still "shutter" at the thought of not using real
>    wood.   ( insert smiley face here   )

DON'T BUY PRESSBOARD CLAPBOARDS.  You'd do almost as well to side your house 
with cardboard refridgerator cartons.  My parent's had a house built 8 years 
ago with that siding, and they've already had to replace several sections, and 
the rest of it needs replacing.

If you're REAL lucky, the stuff might last 15 years.  Spend the money to buy 
some real wood siding, even pine clapboards are vastly superior to the 
pressboard junk.

Paul     

    I looked thru 1111.* to find a similar topic, but there wasn't an
    obvious one.  Since possible answers to my question may be helpful to
    others out there, I thought I'd post the question here....
    
    Last night, my wife heard a couple of loud BANGs outside the house.
    I looked but couldn't find anything in the dark, so I went to bed.
    This morning, I went outside to clear the snow out of the driveway
    and I saw what made the noise.  Some of the find juveniles in our
    town tossed a couple of eggs against the side of the house (and
    I thought halloween was a couple of weeks ago).
    
    Anyhow, I need to get the egg junk off of the house.  of course,
    it had already dried on the house by the time I got to it.  The
    siding is made up of very rough-surfaced cedar shakes.  They have
    a layer of semi-transparent stain on them which was applied by a
    sprayer (i.e. not absorbed too deeply into the shake).  Any ideas
    on how to get the egg stuff off without rubbing the shakes down
    so a lot of the stain goes away with it?   Anyone used a method
    of spraying them off without rubbing??  I had thought about just
    going up there and trying some things myself, but if I can find
    a couple of ideas to try before making any "grave" cosmetic mistakes
    to the house, I'd rather do that.
    
    Thanks for any help you could offer
    
    andy

    Hi Andy!
    
    Time is of the essence here!  I would not let that stuff sit on
    the shingles 1 second longer than necessary.  Hopefully its frozen
    on there right now and not soaked in.  I would suggest a bucket
    of hot water, TSP (Tri-sodium Phosphate), rubber gloves and a stiff
    bristle hand brush.  Try to test it on an inconspicuous place first
    if possible.  I don't think just hosing it down will get it off.
    
    Phil

I just felt I had to reply to this one.  I have to thank VIC for his tip on
going from the top to the bottom.  Makes it a piece of cake.  One other tip I
have (which I devised by experimentation), is if you're siding up against a
sloping roof you have to measure each board, right?  Wrong!  All you have to do
is cut the first board and then use the bottom of it to define the top of the
exposed part of the next board.  All this assumes you're going from top down.

One idea I came up with is to snap a line over each stud.  Then when you nail up
the clapboards you can use the line to line up your nails.  The reason you can
use the nailheads in the sheathing is that I'm assuming its covered with Tyvek 
or some such stuff.

-mark

btw - 	now I know why builders use clapboards.  they've got to be about the 
	easiest thing there is.  when I shingled my last house it took many 
	hours to do the smallest of sections.  I sided a section around 10X15
	in a couple of hours.

    Vic or Mark, I'm very interested in the TOPS-DOWN method as I envision
    doing my siding job alone.  When you nail your first board down
    is it left with enough flexibility to slide the next board underneath,
    or do you hold back on the hammering until the second board is in
    place?
    
    Any other info would also be appreciated.

I simply threw a couple of nails in the first one to keep it from sliding.  When
the next one goes in, you nail the bottom of the top one.  This in turn snugs up
the second one.  It's tight, but not too tight to slide the third one in.

One thing I discovered after awhile (and I'm surprized I didin't think otf it 
right away) is it's not enough to maintain equal spacing between each board
since even a slight error magnifies itself as you move down (or even up) the
wall.  Therefore, I will fairly frequently use a level and/or measure the new
board to a fixed reference point.

One potential MAJOR negative doing it this way is that if you screw up a board,
it's extremely difficult to remove since there is a good board nailed to it.  So
far I haven't had to deal with this and I hope I never do...

-mark

    One consideration with red cedar is the way it looks.  It tends
    to become very streaky and splotchy.  Some people hate it, others
    don't mind.  My house was in this state between being sandblasted
    and stained, and I didn't think it looked too bad, but it was a 
    little informal for a colonial.  I know this was discussed early in 
    this conference; you can locate the earlier discussions by checking
    note 1111, which groups notes by keywords, in this case probably 
    SIDING.  The oil might darken the shingles, but it might darken
    the dark and light streaks the same amount, so the contrast would
    stay the same - just as streaky.
   

    Has anyone had experience with sandblasting to remove paint from
    shingles? Do they look like new when you are done or do they need
    to be stained or painted? 

    Karen,
    	Would you mind posting how much the estimate was and the size
    of the job?
    				=Ralph=

    
    
    Yes, and could you tell us what you learned about the 
    "walnut" and water-blasting methods?
    
    -tm
    

    Sandblasting shingles will probably make the grain more pronounced.
    Since shingles already have somewhat of a grain texture anyway,
    my guess is that the appearance will be acceptable, probably an
    exaggeration of what you already have. You'll definitely want
    to stain or paint them, just as you'd want to stain or paint new
    shingles or any other wood exposed to the weather.
    
    I had good luck with BC Industries in Worcester, Mass. for sandblasting
    a couple of radiators.  I don't know if they do houses or not.

    The siding on my 13 year-old house is a Monsanto product called
    "Colorlok" (that's what's printed on the back side).  It's now 
    a pretty faded yellow, and looks to be in need of painting.  
    A paint store salesman recognized it, called it "masonite," said it
    was used extensively 10-15 years ago, and said it could be painted
    successfully using any "good quality flat latex."  Any opinions
    or experiences out there?
    
    Thanks.

    I was a carpenter 10-15 years ago and saw a fair amount of that
    stuff being put on. It looks like clapboards when up, and painted
    very nicely. My only reservation was its durability, cause your
    paint store salesman is right, it is masonite (or very similar)
    and I wondered what prolonged dampness would do to it.
    
    Alan

    We have masonite on our 14 year old house.  The north side of the
    house is in good condition.  The other sides are not doing well.
    Every place where there is a nail holding the masonite boards on,
    water has gotten in and swelled the board.  In some spots the boards
    are disintegrating.  The person who owned the house before us caulked
    all the nails to prolong the life of the masonite.  We are vinyl
    siding the house this summer.  We do not think much of masonite.
    

    Is this just a past incarnation of "Abitibi" which is in current
    vogue?  Anybody know about the durability of this stuff?  (Guess
    why I am concerned.)
    
    Stan

    We have Abitibi in our bath.  We are about to replace it.
    It does not hold up well in moisture areas.
    It's probably abpout 10 years old and is now disintegrating.

    I answered my own question this weekend.  I was talking to an
    ex-painting contractor.  He said that Abitibi is a masonite product.
    The manufacturer recommends that one coat of oil base paint be used
    on the material before latex paint is applied to seal the nail holes.
    If this isn't done, the material will expand where the nails go
    through due to water degrading the material.  Oh well.  Time to
    consider suing the builder again for another reason.
    
    Stan

    RE: Masonite
    
    We have a similar siding on our house called "Insulite".  We have
    noticed the "nail-hole" problem described in another note.  Since
    my neighbor is the person who helped build our house, the contractor
    has become more experienced in dealing with this product.  We built
    a detached garage 3 years ago and used the same siding. 
    
    The key is to not drive the nail head flush with the siding.  The
    natural "weathering" of the product will eventually result in a
    better finished appearance.  The flush nail heads also made for
    dimples in the siding.  Not a big deal when new, but the water does
    find its way in there.  The garage looks much better, and the nails
    do not protrude to the point that they are noticeable.  
    
    We just brush painted the house & garage last fall with California
    latex, and it looks good.  So we initially had almost 8 years with
    the original paint (which was sprayed on).  I don't consider that
    too bad.  
    
    In another 5-6 years, it might be a good idea to replace the siding.
    The garage won't need it then, but everything should be done at
    the same time.
    
    	Ted

I have a related painting question. If you can not paint oil over latex
or vice versa, how do you tell what you've got? I recently purchased
a home, and the shed out back was peeling (I presemue due to age) badly.
So far, I have scraped the worst side leaving about half of the wood
exposed. How do I determine what type the existing paint was, and in
either case, what should I do? One more broad and ignorant question:
What are the pro's and con's of latex vs. oil.

Thanks,

Steve

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 1225.8                     ?? oil |/_ latex                          8 of 8
SONATA::HERCHEK                                       5 lines   5-AUG-1987 12:17
                         -< tip on testing oil/latex >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A quick tip in testing for oil or latex.  Take a cotton swab and
    dip it in alcohol.  Rub against paint.  If the paint comes off you
    have latex paint otherwise you have oil.
    
    Gary

    I need to replace a few rotted shakes around my front porch.  Is
    there a preferred method of removing the old ones, and nailing in
    new ones so that the nails won't show?  I imagine that the nails
    from several courses will be in the way when trying to shove a new
    shake into the slot left when the old shake was removed.  It seems
    like it would be extremely difficult to replace a single shake without
    hacking it to bits, but I've seen houses where miscellaneous shakes
    have been replaced.  What's the trick?
    
    Adv(thanks)ance;
    
    Steve

There's a special tool for removing nails from under shingles or shakes.  It 
looks like this:

	From the side:		Detail of top (from the front):
					|<-----2"------>|
	_				_________________
	^	| 			|		|
	|	|			| 		|
	|	|			| /|	     |\ |
       18"	|			|/ |	     | \|
	|	|			   /	     \ 
	|     __|			  /	      \
	v     |				 /	       \
	_     |				|		|

You pound or push the tool up under the shakes, and hook a nail using the hooks 
on the end of the bar.  Then you pound down on the flat part next to the handle
to pull the nail out from underneath.  You might be able to rent them, but if 
you live near Nashua, I saw them in JR's discount the other day, and I imagine 
they're under $20.

Paul

    You can get a tool (Brookstone, full-range hardware stores) that
    slides up under a shake or shingle, catches around a nail, and
    (theoretically) allows you to cut the nail by whacking the free
    and with a hammer.  In practice, it doesn't work that neatly for
    me (end up pulling out doubled-over nails instead) but it does
    work.  You can then cut a new shake/single to size and insert it.
    You won't be able to invisibly nail the replacement (at least,
    I don't know how!), so nail neatly and use HD galvanized shingle/
    shake nails or possibly aluminum nails to avoid rust tracks.
    
    dq
    

re .22

    You won't be able to invisibly nail the replacement (at least,
    I don't know how!), so nail neatly and use HD galvanized shingle/
    shake nails or possibly aluminum nails to avoid rust tracks.

I read a book this weekend that gave a way to hide the nailheads -
I've no idea if it really works, as I've never done anything like this.

What they said to do was to insert the shake 1/4" farther out than the 
other shakes, then nail them in just under the edge of the next higher 
course.  Finally, use a rubber mallet to pound the replacement shake in 
until it lines up, and the nailhead disappears under the course above.

It'd be interesting to know if this really works.

	Larry

    RE: .23
    
    Yup. I've used this method very successfully many times. The smaller
    galvanized nail bend quite nicely up under the next course, never
    to be seen again. ;)
    
    Charlie

    
    	
    	Hi
    
    	The wooden part of my house needs to be painted pretty 
    	bad, so I'm finally getting around to it.
    
    	Scraping the pealing paint is no problem (except that
    	its a pain).
    
    	My question is - The clapboards are pretty dirty - they 
    	havent been painted in what looks like 10 years.  I tryed
    	scrubbing them with little success and lots of work.
    	Do I need to clean them (its really just MANY layers of
    	dust), or will paint seal the dirt in?
    
    	Thanks in advance?
    
    	tom
    

    If you clean them first, you will get a smoother paint job.  The
    high-pressure hoses sold at most hardware/DIY stores did a sufficient
    job for us.  We did this after scraping to blow away all the little
    particles scraping leaves behind.  Because we made an effort not
    to soak the wood, just clean it of debris, we were able to prime
    the bare spots the same day.

discussed elsewhere for mildew, a mixture of TCP and bleach (or TCP alone if
there's no mildew) will produce the cleanest surface.

you can certainly paint directly over dirt, but I wouldn't take bets as to 
when it will start to peal.

-mark

    Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it peals for you!  I on the other
    hand intend to sit on my front stoop, amidst the apple peels and
    watch my paint peel.
    
    Sorry, I tried but I couldn't help myself.
    
    Mike H

    I am getting ready to install 6" cedar siding on my house and am
    wondering how thick (1x?, or 5/4x?) the vertical boards at the
    corners of the house should be. 
    Anybody have any thoughts on the subject?
    
    DS

    If we ever get around to it, the guy who's going to frame our house says
he has a special interest in "authentic" capes and other styles of 100 years
or so ago.  He says it's gotta be 5/4.  Not sure about the other dimension tho.
    Even if authenticity isn't an issue, I'd think it would look better anyway,
extending past the fattest part of the siding, as in this side view:

         5/4                           1x

       |   / |                         | / |
       |  /  |                         |/  |
       | /___|                         /___|
       |   / |                         | / |
       |  /  |                         |/  |
       | /___|                         /___|

    Re: .-1 
    
    The 6" clapboards I've installed are more like 1/2" nominal thickness
    at the thick end.  So the edges will not project past 1x corner
    boards either, or am I missing something?
    
    Assuming you want #1 lumber, you'll find 5/4x4 or 5/4x6 to be VERY
    expensive (much more so than the simple proportional board-ft
    increment).
    
    Perhaps the guy with the interest in "authentic" capes is also talking
    about clapboards that aren't paper-thin like they are today.

      
    A related question:
    
    Some people recommend staining both sides of the cedar siding. What
    would be the reason for this? I'd rather not double the work if
    I don't have to.
    
    When nailing cedar siding on I was told only to nail through one
    piece and not through 2 layers of siding where they overlap. What
    is the reason for this?   See picture below:
    
                              _ |
           put nail here|    / /|
                        V   / / |
                      |----/ /_ |
                     |----/_// /|                                         
                      ^     / /  |                                   
                      |    / /   |                                   
                      |   /_/                                     
                  not here                                                 
         
    Is there 5/4 inch wide red cedar available?
    
    Reply to .2
                       
    Remember, the 1/2" siding will sit on top of the piece below it
    adding to the total thickness. And a 1 x whatever edging board
    has a finished thickness of 3/4".  It might not overlap as in .1
    but it will be pretty close. I think I would prefer the 5/4" look.
                                                                      
    DS

    I am in the planning process to do that you describe.
    
    The reason for the stain on both sides is to minimize cupping. 
    It is called out by some DYI books but not by the Western Red Cedar
    association.  I have the US and Canadian standards if you would
    like to view them (location BXB).
    
    I plan to use 5/4 stock and am in the process of ordering from the
    west coast.  The firm is Bear Creek Lumber Winthrop WA.  Price $1.50
    per Board foot.  There is no reason you can not use 1 inch stock
    as the trim can be shimmed out from the sheathing.  I would use
    2 inch stock if I had to do it again but on the current project
    I do not have the space. 
    
    The nail pattern is used to avoid splitting of the clapboards in
    dry weather.  This pattern is also called out in the Western Red
    Cedar association Standard.

    
    	I used 1x stock on my house and the clapboards do not go
    	beyond the stock.  They are close to even but probably
    	about 1/16 to 1/8 below.

	For depth I would recommend testing for yourself.  Get a few shingles
	and lay them on a flat surface with the correct exposure next to a 
	1x and see if the points stickout.  If they do use a 5/4x.  The depth 
	of the shingles will be dependent on the exposure.

	The width of the corner boards depends on the height of the house
	and the period that you are trying to emulate.  Nominal 6", which 
	has a finished width of 5 3/8", boards will work on most applications.
	For three story and tall two story wider boards seem to be the 
	preference, but they tend to warp more.  Colonial Period houses seem 
	to have narrower corner boards, but also do not use contrasting trim 
	paint.  The best thing to do is find an old house similar to yours
	that you like the corner boards on and measure them.

	The reason a nominal 6" board will be 5 3/8" not 5 1/2" is that the 
	corners should be resquared on a disk sander or planer by knocking 1/16"
	off each edge to correct for rounding in the manufacturing and 
	shipping process.  

	Brian

    I used 5/4 on my house (just nearing completion in New Boston NH.
     You are welcome to come and have a look.  Since john (smurf::wallace)
    is just down the road in Weare, maybe you could arrange for an 
    afternoon of house-seeing in NH and after looking at 4/5 and 1",
    decide for yourself!
    
    - rick
    

re: only nailing through 1 board

I don't see how this is possible.  Even if you expose 4-1/2" (which I think is
too much), you'd have to drive your nail over 1" from the bottom.  I would 
expect this to result in more cupping.

re: 5/4

I too have found that 4/4 does an adequate job.  Oddly enough, I had a spot
where I had to do some strange shimming and wound up building one side out of
a 2/4 nailed on top of a 4/4 and when I put in the clapboards, they indeed
looked nicer.  However, with most things, it's only YOU who ever really notices.

btw - remember to install your clapboards from the top down (discussed 
	elsewhere).  This will dramatically reduce installation time.

-mark

    
    I recently purchased 6" cedar siding for my house. Initially we
    wanted smooth siding (this is what we purchased), but after looking
    at a few homes, have decided to go with a rougher surface.
    
    The smooth siding purchased could probably be just turned around
    so the rough side faces out, but it is obvious from the taper on
    the clapboard that the smmoth side was meant to face out.
    
    I heard that this is what you would do to get a rougher surface
    (just turn the clapboard around). This doesn't seem right. before
    I waste my money and time installing smooth cedar siding backwards,
    are there different grades of cedar siding available? If there is
    would anyone know the approximate price differences?
    
    DS

I have never heard of what you described.  I just put up some clapboards rough
side out to match the rest of the house.  It really felt like a crime since the
smooth side was so nice.  I can't imagine what you saw to make you think only
one side was usable. 

-mark

    
    	I have seen it.  My first batch of cedar siding was usable on
    both sides, but of course the smooth side is the *only* way to go.
    :-)  :-)
    
    	I had to buy another 200 lineal feet to finish the house though,
    and the second batch I got was from a different company.  This batch
    was cut sort of tapered from front to back (smooth to rough) at
    the thick end.  I don't think it would have looked very good if
    it had been used rough side out since the taper would look like
    it was going the wrong way.
    
    	Cedar siding does come in different roughnesses, and I believe
    the smoothest is referred to as "vertical grain".  Prices vary at
    around a nickel per lineal foot between them.  Have you looked 
    into redwood siding?  The stuff I looked at was rougher than
    cedar, about the same color (maybe a little redder), and had a
    pre-made rabbitt that allowed easy and consitent gauging.  It
    was real nice looking siding, it may be what your looking for.

    I used the rough side for staining and the smooth side for painting.
    The stain didn't take well to the smooth side. Mine were pine
    clapboards but that shouldn't matter. 

    Cedar siding is graded by the smooth side.  They don't look at the
    rough side.  If there are any visible knots on the smooth side, it's
    B grade.
    If you plan to use the rough side out, you probably should get B
    grade.
    

    When I bought some clapboard this summer, the lumberyard person
    told me that the packages of clapboard are packed differently, based
    on the side recommended for use. Clapboard intended for smooth side
    use is packaged with the rough side exposed; clapboard intended
    for rough side use is packaged with the smooth side exposed.   
                                                                   
    Bu the way, P.F. O'Connor in Revere and Wilmington (I think) MA has a sale
    this week on clapboard. Western red cedar "aye and better" is $.38 per
    lineal foot. I paid $.44 this past summer.                     
                                                                 
    
    

    Regarding 1/2 X 6 clapboard siding;  Does anyone know the formula 
    for converting square footage to linear feet?   Building supply
    stores sell/calculate it both ways.  I could'nt find this under 
    any other previous note regarding siding.  
    
    Thanks,
        
    Chip

>        Regarding 1/2 X 6 clapboard siding;  Does anyone know the formula 
>    for converting square footage to linear feet?   
    
    3 linear feet = 1 square foot.
    

    So, the same applies for calculating price?  For example, if a store
    quotes me .36 a linear foot, then essentially he's selling it to
    me for 1.08 a square foot (3 X .36)?    Someone told me the formula
    for calculating price was:
    
                  linear foot price  X  2.667 = sq footage price

    What's 2.667???

    
    Based on the previous replies consider this:
    
    I recently purchased 2200 sq ft of 1/2 x 6 siding for $.98 a sq
    ft. What was delivered was 440 bundle ft (10 pieces per bundle)
    for a total of 4400 linear ft.
    
    Was I shortchanged? Should I have gotten 6600 linear ft of siding?
    
    Don 

    When I said 3 linear feet = 1 square foot, I was talking about
    coverage.
    
    If a place sells it by the square foot, they're talking about 2
    linear feet.
    

    I'll second .4.  Many places which sell siding by the square foot
    use the nominal dimensions instead of the actual dimensions when
    calculating the coverage needed.  (I.e., two 1 foot long 1x6 pieces
    of limber will over 1 squate foot; with overlap, it is really three.)
    I ran into this when I ordered the 1x6 T&G red cedar for my family
    room.
    
    Another thing to look out for.  If you do wind up having to order
    more siding, make sure what you get it from the same manufacturer.
    The first lot of (1x6) T&G cedar I ordered had a 5" exposure, the
    second lot has a 5-1/4" exposure.  (By exposure I mean the visible
    face of the wood, it does not include the tongue and groove.)
    
    Nothing like stating the obvious, but maybe it'll help someone else
    avoid this problem :-}
    
    - Mark

    Ok, .4 is all set.  I'm still not clear on price.
    
    Does anyone know how to convert price per linear foot to price per 
    square foot?

    
    I seem to recall that to convert sq footage of house surface area
    to linear footage you do something like the following:
    
     sq footage of area to be covered  x  2.667  =  linear footage
    
    I'm not sure about the 2.667 (it was in an earlier reply)
    
    Don

There is no single formula that will convert square feet to linear feet,
since 1 square foot is, by definition, a unit of area that is 12" x 12"
square.  

A linear foot is of unspecified width, and 12" in length.

Thus, if the material is 6" wide, 1 square ft = 2 linear ft

      if the material is 12" wide, 1 square ft = 1 linear ft

      if the material is 4" wide, 1 square ft = 3 linear ft, etc

Get the idea?

Now as for *coverage*, like .-2 says, it depends on how much of the width
actually contributes to coverage, and how much is lost to overlap, or 
jointing.   

Bottom line is that there can be many different formulas, and its best to
find out, up front, which one is in use, before buying.

Bob

    What is the best technique for removing individual pieces of cedar
    siding that have split? How do you get the nails out of the board
    above without damaging it too?
    
    I'm going to be repainting this Spring and a number of boards have
    splait and I'd like to replace them. Are there special tools for
    this sort of thing?

Not that I've done it, but when I did a similar project, a book I read said:

Cut the nail with a hacksaw blade:  slide it up between the good clapboard
and the split one, and cut the nail.  (Sounds rather labor intensive to me.)

You may want to take the widest chisel you have (3/4" is probably good enough,
if that's all you have) and split the already-split one into enough pieces to
enable you to take it all down.  This should give easier access to the good
board's nails.

I've successfully and _c_a_r_e_f_u_l_l_y pried up good boards just enough to
pull its nails out enough to get a hammer's prying-thingamajigs under the nail
head.

    There is a tool made for what you want to do. It is a long flat
    bar with a T shaped head that has two slots to hook the nails
    you push it up, slide it over the nail, and pull down. The handle
    is offset, so you can hit it with a hammer. Spags has them. 
    Vt100 graphics to follow:
    
    
    
    
    
                        ____________
                        |          |
                        |/\-|  |-/\|
                            |  |
                            |  |   \-- Nails grabbed here
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |--|  offset handle
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |  |
                            |__|
                  
    							Chris

I searched for information regarding application of siding but didn't 
find anything this specific:

I'm interested in applying clapboard to the peak area of the gable 
end of my house using the "fan design".  Actually, I'm not even sure 
if it's clapboard being used.  I examined a home in the neighborhood 
that had this design and it didn't look like clapboard to me mainly 
because the slabs of wood were butted against each other (not overlapping 
like clapboard) and the wood didn't have the wedge appearance 
(like clapboard).

The top window located near the peak of my roof has a half-round moon 
on top of it.  The bottom of the fan design will circle around this 
half-moon.

I would like to know:

1. Is this clapboard, a kit, or just flat pieces of wood?
2. Does anyone have experience doing this?  If so, any suggestions 
   would be greatly appreciated.
3. Are there any magazines or books that may help me with this 
   design?

Thank you,

Chip
    

I think there's an article within the past year on this in Fine Homebuilding.
I'll look for it, but I wouldn't count on me to remember to find it, if I were 
you.  Try a library.

Paul

    In the latest issue of Fine Homebuilding (February/March #51) someone
    from Northborough, MA asked the same question.  The question and its
    corresponding answer are on page 14.

    Pat

    The timing could not have been better!  

    I must say, Fine Homebuilding is very difficult to find in stores; 
    thank goodness for libraries.  The first thing I learned about this 
    technique is the correct terminology for this design; 
    "Clapboard Sunburst" not "Fan" :-)   
    
    Thank you for pointing that article out!
    
    Chip
    

>    I must say, Fine Homebuilding is very difficult to find in stores; 

    I seen both Fine Homebuilding and Fine Woodworking at "real" lumber 
    stores such as Coldwels in Berlin and Sterling/Lancaster lumber in 
    Sterling. Others may have them too, but those are the two stores that 
    I frequent.

    Charly

    I noticed just what you're describing currently being done in West
    Acton MA.  A new, small entrance to a cape is being added with a
    sunburst above the door frame.
    
    It's on the left of <Central Street?> as you are going south after
    Idlewild Farms.  Or on the right as you are going north in a group
    of homes right after the West Acton Center nightmare intersection.
    
    Looks nice.  Hope you can do it too.
    
    	Marlene

    It is a very nice touch; I hope I can do it too!

    The article was somewhat complicated but after reading it 20,000
    times, I think I have it figured out.  I liked the suggestion,
    "draw the gable full scale somewhere else - on the floor of your barn, 
    perhaps - to work out the pattern."  (the guy from Northboro, Ma. was
    doing this on his barn) I think I'll go this route since It may be 
    easier than figuring it out while being 30 feet in the air.
    
    Chip
    

    

    I checked the topics out under the "Siding - Wood" heading and none
    answered my question, which is:
    
    Can you put clapboard over T1-11?
    If so should there be anything (e.g. building paper) between the
    T1-11 and the clapboard?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Valerie

Before correctly answering your question, I need to know what kind of siding
you have.  Is it shingles or clapboard.

.-1 will certainly work on shingles (I know because I have one) but will not
work on clapboards.

The way I removed close to 1000 feet of siding was as follows

	use a pry-bar (sometimes called a WonderBar) to do the lifting

	BUT be sure to put it directly under the nail you want to remove and
	tap it up against the nail to seat it.  If you don't, you'll split the
	siding when you try prying.

	Remember you have 2 rows of nails holding one piece of siding.

As for the hack saw method, I've tried this and was unsuccessful.  Remember that
a clapboard is nailed both on top and bottom and you simply can't get the hack
say up 6 inches or more to cut the upper nail (at least I couldn't).

If you need more clarity, feel free to give me a call or drop me some mail.

-mark

I never read the article but I did something like this.  I put clapboards
around a round top horizontally.  I assume the issue is cutting the ends to but
against the trim and not how to arrange the pattern.

I ending up making my own trip for the round top so I simply used the scrap
as a template to mark the clapboards - worked like a champ.  

-mark

    Anybody have any suggestions on re-siding a vertical log home with
    vertical cedar siding?  I assume some type of framework or furring
    strips would have to be installed.  I also want to add additional
    insulation with a couple of inches of blue foamboard.  Reason for
    siding is water damage to logs from lack of guttering.  I'll patch
    where necessary and then re-side if possible.  Help!

    Since no one else attempted...
    
    There is no reason I can think of that you could not put clapboard
    over T1-11.  The T1-11 is providing any needed protection to the
    existing house and the clapboards will protect the T1-11 and will
    provide the look you no doubt want.  It is an opportunity to put
    some rigid foam insulation between the outside world and the inside
    but will require that you use even longer nails.
    
    I cant imagine why you would need anything between the T1-11 and
    the clapboards.  A vapor barrier would only serve to encourage rot
    in the T1-11 since it will now contains moisture and will store that
    moisture and rot.  Building paper would reduce the squeaks if the
    clapboard moved in relation to the T1-11 but I don't think that
    would ever be a problem.
        
    The only problem I can see is that you will have to buy longer nails
    to go through the clapboard and the width of the T1-11 will make
    the clapboard and trim standout a little from about windows/doors.

    You layer up when it gets cold, why not your house ;^)

    A vertical log home??!!!
    
    Excuse me, but you want the FORTS_AND_TEEPEE notes file!

    A small problem might be that you will be creating dozens of nice
    dark tunnels.  If your T1-11 is applied vertically (like it usually
    is) and the bottom is open (i.e., doesn't but up against a piece
    of trim), all kinds of things can crawl in there.  Caulk would probably
    solve the problem. 

    I fully agree with .1 and .2

    There are lot of Tyvec (sp) type products that breathe which
    probably could be used over the T111.  If the clap board is
    installed well the seal everywhere should be pretty tight.

    Hadn't considered the vetical 'bug tunnels'.  Blocking them
    as .2 suggests and prehaps a couple other times in the height
    if the building ought to dicourage little crawly critters.


    Peter Duke

>>    Anybody have any suggestions on re-siding a vertical log home with
>>    vertical cedar siding?  

Try note 49 on sushi::log_homes.


                                        Kurt

> A vapor barrier would only serve to encourage rot in the T1-11 since
> it will now contains moisture and will store that moisture and rot.
> Building paper would reduce the squeaks if the clapboard moved in 
> relation to the T1-11 but I don't think that would ever be a problem.

I thought that tar paper would act as a pretty good vapor barrier.
Doesn't it?

	Thanks,
	Larry

    Tried to add the keypad 7 stuff to the last reply but was not priv'd
    enuf.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add sushi::log_homes to your notebook.

    re .-1
    
    Absolutely not.  Building paper is vapor-permeable.  Exactly why
    it's used on the OUTSIDE of sheathing.

	I am about to buy a new-construction townhouse (heellllpppp!!!! :-).
	It has cedar siding, which, the Paul Cornell the well_recommended_
	home_inspector tell me, has not been caulked at all the edges 
	where the siding meets vertical facia.  He says it need to be 
	caulked to be properly water-tight (sounds reasonable to me).

	Problem is, I think the builder (Guy Donell - Ayer) wouldn't go for
	this, the building is nearly complete.  How important is this
	 - how much should I try to fight for this ?

	thanks,  Josh Belkin

	PS. anyone know anything about Guy Donell?

    It's easy to do yourself.  All you need is a caulk gun and some
    clear caulking.  So, go ahead and ask the guy, and if he refuses,
    just do it yourself.
    
    I'd personally do it myself, then I'd know it was done to my own
    satisfaction.
    
    Elaine
    

	
	Sure, but :

	The entire building needs it.  4 townhouses, 3 story building.
	Something the Condo Ass. (when it gets set up) would have contracted
	to do.  Anything on the outside of the building needs approval
	of the condo ass.  If and when I buy this place, and I am the
	first buyer there, the condo ass. will consist of 1 part me,
	and 3 parts Guy Donell (the builder).  I am concerned that
	he will stick me with this once I buy. (also possibly stick me
	me with gutters, and trimming overhanging trees.)

	Josh

	ps. where in here, or in REAL_ESTATE, are there any notes on
	"tips for new-construction buyers" or some such?

    Sorry, I didn't notice that it's a multi-story townhouse.  Good
    luck.
    
    Elaine

    
    I've tried searching everywhere in this file for the answer to my
    question with little luck. If the topic is opened elsewhere, would
    someone point me in the right direction? Anyway here goes....I am
    about to install red cedar shingles on the upper half of my split
    entrance and the question is...do I need to paper the T111 before
    I install the shingles? What is the advantage of adding paper? The
    house was built in the following way from the inside out.
    
    
    	T111/ 2*4 studs/ insulation / plastic barrier / sheet rock
    
    Doesn't this mean that I already have a vapor barrier? If I paper
    the outside, wouldn't I be trapping the moisture within the walls?
    
    thanks for the help!
    
    john

See also note 738 for some similar information.

Paul

    Building paper is vapor-permeaable (so is Tyvek).  So it's OK to
    use on a wall that already has a vapor barrier on the other side.
    You will not be trapping moisture.
    

Since you're doing it, do it right... use the Tyvek...

Best money you'll ever spend.

Bob

   After reading the various notes related to the subject I think I can
guess the answer to my question, but here goes.....


	   Are all cedar shingles non-square???

  It seems like such a pain to have to square both edges of each shingle.  I am
putting up 'clear' grade white cedar shingles and I expected them to be square
enough so I could butt them together without getting significant V's between
the shingles... no such luck.  The first couple bundles I've squared with a
radial-arm saw, but there must be a better way.

   What are the differences bewteen 'clear' grade and 'extra' grade shakes?


Al	Now_I_know_why_I_play_with_computers_instead_of_installing_siding

>	   Are all cedar shingles non-square???
> ... butt them together without getting significant V's between the shingles...

I think V-less gaps are both inevitable and nothing to worry about.  The
shingles I replaced (just a couple bundles worth) overlapped each other quite
a bit.  The bottom of one shingle was directly on top of two (or more?) others,
in various stages of "reveal".  A gap between any two shingles (except at the
very bottom or top) is a gap protected by two lower layers of shingles.

The only hassle with the gaps that I found was painting - it was hard to paint
in the gaps.  Pre-treating the shingles (as in .1?) would fix this problem.

(My shingles were 17" (can't remember exactly) tall, and my reveal was only,
I dunno, 4" - 5"?)

    re .5  >Are all cedar shingles non-square???
    
    Yes, the gaps are required to allow for the expansion of the wood.  If
    you square the shingle and butt them together you will end up with
    shingles buckling and splitting.
    
    Ric

    Ref -1
    
    	I disagree, you can get red cedar shingled but and rebut, which
    will give you a square edge. Different brands of white cedar shingles
    also have square edges, a brand I have used with very good sucess
    is Maybeck extra's, they are from Canada. I have gotten some very
    poor white cedar shingles and ended up re-squaring them myself.
    Then I looked around for a better brand of shingle. I usually but
    the shingles right up next to each other and have never had a shingle
    buckle. The gaps always widen with time, if you leave a big gap,
    it will be bigger in a year. Don't force the shingles together let
    them rest naturally on the ledger board.
    
    							Chris
    

	 Since originally posting this note three seasons ago, I have
	 finally completed the job. There are a couple of things worth
	 noting, especially in the areas of spacing between adjacent
	 shingles. I used my eye most of the time towards the end of
	 the job, but using a nail at the butt end usually provided a
	 simple and repeating gap to forestall any possibility of
	 buckling.

	 I used 18" shingles whose manufacturer (Teal from Canada)
	 recommended no more than 7" exposure. My place turned out to
	 need about 6" exposure to ensure that the courses ended/started
	 at the window sills. This means that you may have to adjust the
	 course-to-course spacing a little, however, you can easily vary
	 that by as much as 1/2"-5/8" without being obvious.

         Where you put the final course, say, under a window,
         predrilling the nail holes will prevent splitting. Use a drill
         you make from the nails you use. Predrill the nail holes at the
         rake ends too. It will poke a hole just a shade larger than the
         nail, but still provide adequate holding power. I used a 3d hot
         dip galvanized box nails. These nails have a rather large head
         in comparison to the shank diameter and are recommended by the
         manufacturer. To finish under the windows, I used 1-1/4" stop
         molding well cuprinoled and stained to match the natural cedar,
         covering the nail holes with a matching color wax pencil. The
         last course under the soffits was also finished off with the
         stop molding. 

	 Rent a pair of pumpjacks and set up a scaffold. It will make
	 the job go much faster on the gable ends if you don't have to
	 climb up/down the ladder for shingles and when cutting/fitting
	 shingles. If you can't do that, invest in a good pair of
	 steel-shanked workboots. It'll save your feet. Don't get
	 too worked up over the sheer size of the job. I was concerned
	 about waiting 'till the end of the summer, however, after I got
         started, things went rather quickly. I began the project when
         my wife was pregnant with our #2 yard_ape and she was able to
         knock up a  course or two before she needed to climb a ladder.
         Overall, it's a pretty straigtforward project. 

	 To ensure that the courses were straight, I drywall-screwed 1X2
	 furring strips, making sure they were level, to the wall. As I
         moved up the wall, I tried to get the screws to fall between
         shingles so you can't see the screw holes in many places. Even
         those that didn't eventually closed up. Only close scrutiny
         will reveal them. I used a utility knife to cut all but the
	 thickest shingles and those which went under the windows. There
	 were just too many of them, so I used the shop saw in the
	 cellar, predrilling downstairs then nailing them up. I used a
	 coping saw when I needed special cuts around some triangular
	 windows in our family room. A block plane will handle fine
	 fitting and shaving a little off here and there.

	 Would I do it again? Yes, but I'd get the pumpjacks AND the
	 steel boots.

	 Chris


	 

    
    Guess what folks.........I used the Tyvek!
    
    thanks,
    
    John

    I am restoring an Old Ginger Bread house on the Cape and would 
    like to know if any one knows where I can buy pre-cut decorative
    cedar shingles. Or how to cut regular shingles if you have any 
    experience at this type work.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul
    

what is a pre-cut decorative shingle?

-mark

    The exposed part of the shingle is cut in various shapes, giving
    a pattern when they are all up. There are Fish scale, Octagon, Diamond,
    Round and some very intricate ones.
    
    Paul

    I've seen these shingles described by the colorful term "fancy-butt". 
    Very common on Victorian houses.
    
    Note that almost all of the listings below are out west; the proportion
    of Victorian houses out there is much greater than it is here in the
    east, since until Victorian times everyone out there was living in log
    cabins and teepees.  I've put the one Massachusetts listing first; it's
    also the only listing east of the Mississippi.
    
    
    [From 1982 Old-House Journal Catalog (buyer's guide):]
    
    Shingle Mill
    6 Cote Ave., Dept. OHJ
    S. Ashburnham, MA  01466
    (617) 827-4889	[May be (508) by now!]
    (write or call for information)
    
    Kingsway
    4723 Chromium Drive, Dept. OHJ
    Colorado Springs, CO  80918
    (303) 599-4512
    (Catalogue, $2.50)
    
    Mad River Wood Works
    P.O. Box 163, Dept. OHJ
    Arcata, CA  95521
    (707) 826-0629
    
    Old'N Ornate Wooden Reproductions
    1121 Bailey Hill Rd., Dept. OHJ
    Eugene, OR  97402
    (503) 344-6817
    [The listing specifically mentions red cedar fancy-butt shingles]
    
    Puget Sound Shake Brokers
    12301 218th Pl. SE Suite 711, Dept. OHJ
    Snohomish, WA  98290
    (206) 568-6642
    [Also specifically mentions red cedar fancy-butt shingles in many
    shapes]   
    
    San Francisco Victoriana
    2245 Palou Avenue, Dept. OHJ
    San Francisco, CA  94124
    (415) 648-0313
    
    Shakertown Corporation
    P.O. Box 400, Dept. OHJ
    Winlock, WA  98596
    (206) 785-3501
    [Again, red cedar fancy-butt shingles are called out as a specialty]
    
    
    [From ads in Jan/Feb '89 OHJ:]
    
    Vintage Wood Works
    513 South Adams, #1379
    Fredericksburg, TX  78624
    (send $2 for catalogue)
    
    Cedar Guild
    51579 Gates Bridge East
    Gates, OR  97346
    (503) 897-2541
    (write or call for information and prices)

You might want to consider cutting them yourself.  If so, check out the 
June/July 1989 Fine Homebuilding (still available at "better" hardware
stores).  Pages 42 - 45 show shingle shapes & how to put them together to 
form wall patterns.  They also list a mostly different set of suppliers:
3 on the west coast, one in British Columbia (Canada), and one in R.I.:

	South Country Post and Beam
	P.O. Box 432
	W. Kingston, R.I.  02892

The only repeat between their list and .-1 is Shakertown Corporation.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

	I am having a problem with my Cedar siding. My home is only 7
years old and I have restained it three times already. The problem
is that the stain doesn't appear to last. I have used Olympic oil
stain and after staining the house last year the house looks like it
requires it again this year. That is instead of the redwood color,
I now have the boards looking "white" or sun bleached. 
	I have two questions, first is the condition described above
common to stained vs painted cedar or is it the quality of the stain.
And second is there a CLEAR stain that I could reapply so that I don't
darken the color of the wood. Is there a product that is just the
Linseed Oil without the coloring pigments.
	Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

                                                        > Ed <

    
    Have you tried using any "brightener" products (e.g. DECK AND WOOD
    BRIGHTENER)?
    
    I just used Deck/Wood Brightener on my 1 year old p.t. deck followed
    by a clear sealer and the results were amazing! I didn't expect
    much since the can stated that it couldn't bring back the original
    wood look of the p.t. due to the treating process, but wow!
    
    Unfortunately I splashed some of both products on my redwood house
    (also 1 year old) where the deck butts up against it and... those
    spots look so great I'll have to do the whole house now!
    
    							* MAC *

    The instructions on Olympic oil solid stains say to only use it on bare
    wood.  They recommend their latex solid stain for previously stained wood.
    I'm not sure whether that also applies to their semi-transparent
    stains.
    
       Gary

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    Like many others who have decided to refinish the exterior of their
    house, I've read every note I can find about the various techniques.
    Here's my (ongoing) story:
    
    I've got a small cape with cedar shingles.  There are at least five
    coats of white paint, dating from '53, when the house was built.  In 
    general, the house was well maintained, although the paint was allowed
    to deteriorate in the two years prior to me purchasing the place.  The
    shingles are uniformly in excellent condition.
    
    I originally considered sand blasting, as a neighbor had good luck with
    the process (although MUCH sand was left behind!).  However, the vendor
    my neighbor used has since dropped residences because the town ordinances
    vary so much, and the post-cleanup mess.  From what I've been able to 
    gather, you'd better have understanding neighbors if you can find some-
    one to do the blasting.  One vendor quoted $4500 over the phone...I do
    the cleanup...no guarantee on window etching; this did not give me a
    warm feeling about the vendor or the process.
    
    Re-shingleing was out, not so much for the expense, but it seemed 
    criminal to waste the good shingles on there now.  Besides, there's 
    all that work to take them down!
    
    Heat guns were out, due to the fire hazard.
    
    Vinyl siding was not an option.
    So, I bought a good scraper (Sandvik makes one with replaceable tungsten
    blades for about $15.00) and some '5f5' stripper and went to work. 
    This method is painfully slow, but you can do a good job.  There are four
    steps in the process I'm using: Steps 1 and 2 involve using the stripper,
    followed by scraping.  Step 3 is sanding with a rotary sander and fine
    sandpaper.  Step 4 is sanding with a finish (orbital) sander with medium
    sandpaper.  One can remove every trace of paint with this technique,
    although I really struggle with the paint on the bottom edge of each
    shingle: the combination of the shingle end grain (tough to scrape) and 
    the buildup of paint make it difficult.
    
    Step 1 has since been replaced with another process: Peel-Away.  This 
    product is basically a chemical stripping system; here's how it works:
    
    1. Apply Peel-Away in a thin layer (it has the consistency of toothpaste,
       or spackling compound) over an area roughly three ft wide by four feet
       high.
    
    2. Apply the special paper Peel Away gives you; it's an absorbent layer
       backed with plastic sheeting.
    
    3. Twenty four hours later, remove the paper and the vast majority of the
       paint comes with it.  Judicious application of a spatula or putty
       knife helps here.
    
    4. Hose down the freshly stripped surface with high-pressure (nothing
       fancy...just my garden hose at max pressure) to remove more.
    
    This stuff is expensive: the best price I found was approx. $18/gallon.
    A gallon is probably good for 50 - 100 sq.ft.  The amount of special
    paper you get does not match the 'area capability' of the gallon of
    P/A, so I found almost the same material in a disposable drop cloth for
    $3 for approx. 30 sq.ft...works just as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if
    doing my entire house cost $800 - $1000 in chemicals alone; maybe more.
    
    One BIG PLUS is this stuff is not noxious to work with.  It doesn't
    use the same chemicals as '5f5' or equivalent.  I use gloves when applying
    it, but I could get away without using them.  I use a section of 
    gutter as a paint catch basin:
    
                               |
                   siding      |
    		---------------+ 
                              |
                   block      |
                   wall       |
                              |[_] gutter here
                 ---------------------grade--------
    
    
    I'm after one wall at a time (starting in back to get my chops down
    before I let the nighbors see what I'm up to!).  I've got the first wall
    about one-third through the four steps I outlined above in 40 hours of 
    work.  I expect my productivity to go up from here on out, since I've 
    learned a lot since I began.
    
    Peel Away is made by Dumond Chemical in Long Island and is available
    from Sherwin Williams dealers.  Apparently Dumond makes other, faster 
    acting varieties of the same stuff, but the current 24 hour wait isn't
    a problem.  I don't know if the other flavors are better or worse at
    pulling off paint.
    
    I'll keep stats on what I'm doing, so that at least one data point will
    be available.  I'll be glad to demo the process to anyone with an 
    interest...I live in Maynard, MA.,...you've heard of Tom Sawyer, right?
    ;^)
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    
    

    Sure do appreciate this blow by blow description John
    
    
    
    				thankyou
    				herb
    

    I'm looking to buy shakes for siding on my house, where
    can I find a good selection and price.   I saw grey shakes
    at Somerville that look OK for $100/sq.  I want more of a selection
    and lower price, can anyone help?
    Thanks.

    	To each his own but if you're looking for shakes to totally redo
    your house rather than for just repairing areas, I'd think twice about 
    using them.  I have them on my house and at painting time they are
    a nightmare.  Especially if I have to repair an area with new shakes.
    They soak up the paint like a sponge.  It's like someone took a
    perfectly good shingle and said, now how can we screw this up - I
    know, let's put grooves in it!  They are more expensive also.
    
    	Next time, rather than paint I think I'm gonna rip these damn
    things off.
    
    	By the way, is there a logical reason for the grooves in shakes?
    
    George
    	

    Also,  I think they only come in grey.  The grey is a primer.  If
    you want another color it's DIY.  I've never seen unprimed ones.
    You might give Chagnon Lumber a call in Nashua if it's in your area of 
    interest.
    
    George

         The shakes are for my addition, the rest of the house is asbestos
    and the shakes seem to match the best.   Also alot of the houses
    around have some type of shake that looks pretty good, one neighbor
    said that his came pieced together in 3ft lenghts 20yrs ago.   
    Thanks for letting me know that they only come in 1` color, my abestos
    shingles are gray so thats another reason why I'm considering them.
    The other alternative is to use vinyl siding.
    

    I just picked up a pkg, $109 for primed shakes for some repair work, 
    they had unprimed red ceder that were cheaper, but i did'nt feel 
    like priming them myself. They definately look like their gonna be 
    a nightmare to paint.
                                                     
    Got em at Moores in Leominster
     
    Fra

    I have a clapboard sunburst over my front door and it is my fancy that
    it would look wonderful done in gold leaf.  My painter said the gold
    leaf would cost about $250 plus application.  I know people put gold
    leaf on picture frames and the like without busting their budgets, but
    I was hoping I could inspire some comments on the idea, the technique,
    the cost, longevity, tackiness quotient, etc.

    This should really be a new note topic about applying GOLD LEAF.. 
    ... and should probably by in a hobby or crafts conference but....
        
    From what I have read, you apply a paint or glue to the surface
    to be gilded.  Take an artists paint brush, pick up the gold leaf
    with the brush, and apply the leaf to the paint/glue.  Press the
    leaf to the paint/glue with the brush.  Allow to dry.  When dry
    the gold leaf that was outside the paint/glue area, is wiped away
    as excess.  

    It is my understanding that gold leaf is sold in packets much like
    a book.  Even numbered pages are gold leaf with odd numbered pages
    a tissue like paper to separate the gold leaf.  The books I have
    seen in my reading and hobby shops are about 4x6 inches square.
    
    Once applied it would need a clear coat of finish to protect it
    from outside weather.  I read an article about applying gold leaf
    as a form of lettering on a car and this all based on what I recall
    from that article.
    
    As to tackiness quotient, If you have a brass door kick plate, brass
    door handle and a brass knocker on the door to pick up the gold tone,
    it might kind of all blend together.  Even so, I think it would score
    real high on the tacky scale.

    p.s.  Mr Moderator, maybe you would like to start a new topic and
    move these replies there?  Or would this be better discussed in
    another conference?

    This gold leaf discussion might warrant a new topic.  But I believe it
    is appropriate for this conference.  After all, the guy is asking about
    putting this leaf on his house for accent.  This would seem no
    different than asking about using oil to paint the house, or what type
    of paint to use for the trim on his windows.
    
    As for tacky, if the guy likes it, and is willing to pay the price to
    put it on, then I guess he is entitled to do it.  I can't really
    visualize what it would look like.  I think I would almost have to see
    it to have a feel for how it would look.  I think maybe this is an area
    that imaging computers would be great for.  Then, we could see the
    results of our efforts before we begin.  This would help to avoid
    costly errors in design or whatever.  It would definitely help on color
    designs and kitchen designs.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    RE: .8
    
    Is it a Victorian?  If so, it's definitely in keeping with the 
    Victorian mindset.  If it's a 18th century colonial, then I 
    definitely wouldn't do it.
    

            <<< Note 3100.9 by OASS::B_RAMSEY "only in a Jeep..." >>>

        
>    From what I have read, you apply a paint or glue to the surface
>    to be gilded.  Take an artists paint brush, pick up the gold leaf
>    with the brush, and apply the leaf to the paint/glue.  Press the
>    leaf to the paint/glue with the brush.  Allow to dry.  When dry
>    the gold leaf that was outside the paint/glue area, is wiped away
>    as excess.  

Yup, that is close to the right approach.....but there is a lot more to it.
the Glue needed is called sizing, and takes up to 6 hours to set up 
properly before the leaf is applied. The artists paint brush to pickup the 
leaf is a special brush, and is a sable variety. Of course, this has to be 
applied with no wind to blow stuff into the sizing, and requires all kinds 
of specialized talents to handle the leaf....it is so fragile that the 
thickness is not measurable by ordinary machinists devices.....it literally 
disintergrates if you touch it or pick it up incorrectly. This is nota job 
for amateurs. If you really want to learn how to do it, try gold leafing 
picture frames for a while, first, then graduate to bigger stuff.

>    It is my understanding that gold leaf is sold in packets much like
>    a book.  Even numbered pages are gold leaf with odd numbered pages
>    a tissue like paper to separate the gold leaf.  The books I have
>    seen in my reading and hobby shops are about 4x6 inches square.
  
What you have seen is imitation gold leaf books. Sold by several companies, 
it is intended for interior use only, although they may claim differently. 
It is much cheaper than the real stuff, and much easier to use. Real gold 
leaf books are (Last time I priced them) in the range of $28.00 per book, 
anda book covers about 2 sq. ft.....(think of that next time you see the 
Massachusetts state house dome...it is *REAL* gold leaf!) It is priced 
based on the market value of gold.....

>    Once applied it would need a clear coat of finish to protect it
>    from outside weather.  

Real leaf does not require a clear coat.....in fact, that would reduce its 
brilliance and luster. 
   
    Vic H

    For outdoor work, you may want to use what is called "patent leaf"
    which is gold leaf on a type of wax paper. You cannot work with
    loose gold leaf outdoors, due to the wind, as mentioned in a previous
    note. For outdoor work, such as domes, etc., the adhesive is a type
    of varnish. Having the gold leaf on the wax paper allows it to be
    placed against the tacky varnish, and the paper peels off. Real
    gold leaf is incredibly delicate to handle, as previously noted,
    and I have ruined sheets of it by sneezing while I worked. As far
    as real versus imitation (or Dutch metal, as it is sometimes called),
    you have to go by what it is worth to you. For antique work, I would
    only use real gold. For other applications, the imitation can be
    quite suitable. Note that the imitation must be sealed to prevent
    discoloration. Leaf is also available in silver, aluminum, copper,
    palladium, as well as different karats of gold, which go from pale
    yellow to rich gold. Many light (or lemon) gold items are leafed
    with silver that has been covered with a tinted shellac.
    
    Joseph

    We are in the midst of planning an addition for our
    home.  Along with the addition, the contractor is going to
    reside our home, and we're probably going to choose T111
    plywood.
    
    I want to stain the plywood before it's installed.  That is,
    the contractor will deliver the plywood, I'll stain the sheets,
    and he'll work with the pre-stained wood, thereby avoiding
    having to find and pay a house-painter.
    
    Has anyone done this?
    
    What are the mechanics of dealing with a large number
    of sheets of plywood, such that staining and stacking
    them can be managed in a somewhat efficient manner?

    

    You're residing your house with plywood???? Oh well.
    
    I think it's a DUMB idea to stain the "plywood" before the contractor
    puts it up. How is he going to keep from marking up the "plywood"
    while he's putting it up???? What's he going to do hammer very lightly
    8*). Secondly it's easier to stain the wood once it's on the house.
    You don't have to worry about making marks on the wood when you
    move it around.
    
    Mike
    

    I agree with .-1.  Prestaining is a bad idea.  Not only hammering
    and general handling will mess it up, but presumably some of the
    sheets have to be cut - that will also make a mess.
    
    Prestaining is normally only done on the BACK (unexposed) side of trim
    pieces to protect them against any water which creps in after
    they're up.

    As a contrast to the previous two replies, I think you are smart to
    prestain the T-111.  As a clarification, T-111 is not JUST plywood.  It
    is an honest, acceptable siding which is used on many application.  We
    used it on a barn we built.  We did both methods - stain before and
    after putting it up.  We noted a couple of things
    
    	1) If you stain before you put it up, you have to be cautious when
           setting the nails.  You may want to emphasize this to the
           contractor.  He will want to avoid hammer marks (which he SHOULD
           be avoiding anyway).
    
    	2) If you stain after you put it up, it is a very messy job which 
           should not be done on a windy day.  We wore as much as we put 
           on the wall.
    
    One major recommendation would be to use a spray painter like the
    Wagner power painter.  It will make the job go faster.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    
    Based on my experience this past spring painting T111 it might be
    smart to pre-stain the sheets before you put them up. I primed the
    T111 with a oil base primer and then painted it with California
    Latex. I tried to use a brush, and even a roller, takes too long.
    So I switched to my sprayer, and finished a 10x16 shed in 1 hour
    for the primer and 1 hour for the latex plus 1/2 hour to go back
    and re-spray the groves in the T111, it hard to get that paint in
    there.                                                        
    
     I'd lay the sheets on a large sheet of plastic and go wild sparying
    them. Don't worry about the contractors cuts and nails. It'll be
    alot easier to go back and touch up those kinds of things
    
    
    

    I do recomend pre-staining.  I did this for an interior job and the
    results were very pleasing.  There was very little touch up work
    necessary as a result of the construction.  I don't recommend spraying,
    especially for wood that will be on the exterior.  Sprayed paint or
    stain will not last nearly as long as paint applied with a brush or
    pad.  
    
    My recommendation is to use a pad.  You will use much more stain than
    spraying, but that's good.  The T111 will suck up the stain like a
    sponge but it will go on very quickly.  I layed the sheets out over  a
    couple of saw horses and put the stain in a roller tray.  I stained 11
    sheets in less than two hours.
    
    I have used pads for stain and paint and would use nothing else.  I've
    done a house with pads and the time and effort saved (vs brush) is
    considerable.  

To reiterate something that was said in .1, although not elaborated on, you 
might want to reconsider re-siding with T-111.  You will save some money over 
having it resided with vinyl or aluminum or with the nicer cedar, but you will 
most likely lose more than you save in the resale value of the house.  If 
you're planning on living there a long time, this may not matter, but otherwise 
the T-111 may actually cost you a considerable sum of money rather than saving 
any.

Paul

    Actually, some houses look quite nice in T-111... I guess it depends
    on the design and the environment..
    
    ...tom

    Someone recommended using a pad instead of a brush or sprayer, so
    I'll probably try that.  I had been considering using a sprayer,
    but apparently a pad will allow me to get a much better coat.
    
    But, what do you do about the wet sheets?  Do you leave them laying
    flat, all spread out in the yard until they're dry? Do you stack
    them with separators so they can dry?
    
    Also, what kind of coverage can one expect (yes, I know this is
    VERY dependent on the stain used, and other parameters)?
    
    For those of you suggesting that T-111 is not the best siding,
    I agree.  But we can't conceive of our house with anything other
    than the "vertical" look, and T-111 is probably going to be what
    we have to go with because of cost constraints (sigh).
    
    Thanks,
    Rich

    I just painted my mother-in-law's shed two weeks ago.  It was a
    10 x 12 shed done with T-111.  There were two of us painting with 
    paint pads.  It took two gallons of primer and two gallons of latex 
    paint to cover the shed.  Each coat took approx. 2 hours to apply.   
    It was a dry and breezy day and each coat was dry to the touch within 
    an hour.
    
    Hope this info helps.  

    BTW my shed is also T-111 and we painted it using brushes and
    rollers...NEVER AGAIN!
    
    Serv

I would use 4 pieces of strapping, a couple of handfulls of common nails,
(whatever's handy) and a convienient wall.  Drive the nails "partially" thru
each piece of the strapping at say at ~1 inch intervals.  Use two of these
spiney strappings on the ground, nail heads up, to keep the stained sheets 
off the ground and keep the bottoms from sliding out and the other two on the 
top to keep the sheets separated until they dry.  Find a sheltered wall, I 
would hate to see t-111 kites sailing thru the air or a domino affect should 
your sheets be accidently pushed over.   

I would keep away from placing sticks between the sheets.  Those sticks may
act a sponges and absorb some of the stain leaving stripes.  experience ;^)

Hope this helps
Frank

    
    We built a 10 X 12 shed the latter part of the summer, two years
    ago.  We used T-111.   Spring of the followin year we restained
    our house.  It was at this time we stained the shed.  (The house
    is another story.)  The shed was a breeze.  Not just because of
    the smaller size but because the T-111 had had a chance to season.
    It took my wife and I a  couple of hours using brushes only to do one 
    coat of quality stain.  Its been a year and a half with no sign of 
    fading, etc.
    
    Ken

    I did a 9 x 10 shed this summer and used a "staining brush" to do the 
    T1-11 and it went very easy. The brush is wider and has a different
    bristle than a regular buush, but holds more stain and doesn't splatter
    as badly.
    
    Ertic

    Here's an update on the .5 note:
    
    As I hoped, I walked up the learning curve on Peel Away, so I was able to 
    complete one side of my cape in 62 hours of work, including two coats of
    stain.  Given that I have roughly 460 ft^2 of shingles, that works out
    to about 7.5 ft^2/hour.  I'd be inclined to use 10ft^2/hour as an estimator  
    from here on out.
    
    Although I would have liked to use a transparent stain, the Peel Away
    left some areas of darker wood which would have showed through a
    transparent stain.  I wound up using Pratt & Lambert oil-based opaque
    stain, getting about 300 ft^2 coverage/gallon on the first coat and
    something like 450ft^2/gallon for the second coat.  The first coat 
    _almost_ covered completely.
    
    A few additional steps that I left out of note .5: 
    
    I've deduced that Peel Away is a caustic, basic chemical, because 
    they include a mild acid which one sprays on after removing the paint.  
    All of these chemicals are _very_ weak when compared to the stuff
    I used to use to strip paint, so I would emphasize there's nothing 
    scary about 'em.
    
    I purchased a rotary sander that I use to remove the approximately 5%
    of paint that resists the Peel Away.  I could certainly apply another
    coat of P/A, but the sanding is pretty quick.  I use 50grit discs and 
    exercise _extreme_ caution when using the sander, because it can remove
    material more quickly than you can believe.
    
    The rotary sanding leaves swirl marks, so I use a monster orbital
    finishing sander with 40grit to remove those.  Although this might
    sound like overkill, the orbital sanding takes practically no time and
    really helps the surface finish.
    
    Just to re-cap, here's the updated list of steps:
    
    a. Peel Away applied, sit 24 hours.
    
    b. Putty knife the Peel Away off...about 80-85% of the paint will come 
       off.
    
    c. Water wash and scrub brush the surface to remove the paint remnants.
       Another 10% of the paint will come off in this step.
    
    d. Neutralize the P/A by spraying on the mild acid.  Test the pH 
       (neutrality) of the siding with a pH test kit included in the 
       P/A.  One application was sufficient for my house.
    
    e. After waiting for things to dry, rotary sand to remove remnants.
    
    f. Finish sand with _monster_ orbital (sucker's heavy!)
    
    g. Two coats of stain.
    
    Scrapers and such are still required for the margins between window
    casings and shingles and other similar places.  
    
    I'll let you know how the stain holds up over the winter.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    
       
    

Getting back to the base note... why pre-dip?  Is that dramatically better
than staining them after they are up?  In my case, I'm paying someone to
install them but I'm going to be staining them myself.  So it is very
much simpler (in terms of scheduling, at least) to stain them after
installation.  Sure, staining both sides would be some improvement, but
is it enough that I ought to try to dip them between delivery and when
my contractor puts them up?

	Thanks,
	Larry

I found a reference -- note 2521.3 says that pre-dipping reduces cupping.
But does it reduce it enough to be worth some pain to make it happen?
Or is this something for perfectionists only?  Perhaps I should mention
that the building I am siding will not get much direct sun.

	Thanks,
	Larry

I plan to put cedar clapboards on a garage I am building, which won't
get very much direct sun.  I would like to use a semi-transparent stain.
I live in central MA.

A friend in Rhode Island says that several people she knows who have done
this have to steam clean mildew off their clapboards every few years.
Actually, everyone she knows with semi-transparent stained clapboards
has this problem on at least some sides of their houses, but not the ones 
with solid stain.

My question is: is this experience more general, and if so, what can be
done to stop the mildew?  Am I stuck with solid stains, or are there brands
of semi-transparent stains with effective mildew inhibitors?  Anyone have
experience with this problem?

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS -- I couldn't find a SIDING-WOOD note that discussed mildew, and the
closest MOLD-MILDEW note (247) is about removing mildew odor from
some kitchen cabinets, not how to prevent it on the outside of a house.

    QUICKLY!  Before it gets write locked!
    
    I would siggest a mild solution of bleach and water which should
    than be allowed to dry before applying the stain. This will help
    remove any mildew if any already exist and it will also help prevent
    the growth of such.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    Drew.
    

    
    I can't speak about dipping clapboards specifically, however
    my parents, soaked their rough wood fencing (not cedar or pressure
    treated) in thinned oil paint before the fence was built about 
    15 years ago, and it has never peeled.  It has faded now, and could 
    use another coat, but the wood seems to be in good condition.
    
    I suspect that pre-dipping in a stain would significantly improve
    the life of the wood and the stain if you are able to "soak" them
    for a period of time, rather than quickly dip them.  If you go 
    the soaking route, you probably want to thin out the stain.
    By the way, I assume we are talking about oil-based stain, I
    wouldn't advice this with latex.

    -tm
        

FWIW, I have a semi-transparent stain on the cedar siding of our house
and have not seen any evidence of mildew.  This is a house in the D.C.
area....with all of that nasty humid weather in the summer!!!!!

(we do get _lots_ of mildew in the basement.......or at least did until
I finally turned the dehumidifier on!)

-Jeff

    FWIW, our house has cedar clapboards and Cuprinol semi-transparent
    stain, the older oil-based stuff (white can), and it is loaded
    with mildew on all the shady areas.
    
    EXCEPT for a small section where, in 1987, I ripped off some
    deteriorated and split clapboards, and restained by brushing on
    three heavy coats of the same stuff used elsewhere on the house.
    That section has not mildewed, although the adjacent areas, spray-
    stained the year before, look like somebody threw black pepper at
    them.  Perhaps it has as much to do with the process as with the
    product?
    
    pbm
    

    Try a semi-transparent stain with mildewcide and insecticide.  I
    used Glidden on my house, about three years ago they stopped making
    the regular stain and now only sell it with mildewcide and insecticide.
    (part of my house has the old stuff, and part has the new.  I can't
    see any difference in them yet.)
    
    Jim D.

    
    For what it's worth Olympic semi-transparent does the same thing. I
    was told in another note to use "CALIFORNIA STAIN" as opposed to
    Cuprinol or Olympic. Anyone have any experience with this manufacturer?
    
    Ed
    

We used California on our new Cedar Clapboards.  Stained once on the inside
and twice on the exposed side.   California was recommended to us
by Nashua Paint and Wallpaper.
First coat was in the spring the second coat was near the end of summer.
So far no problems.
-Larry    

    For the last year or so I had been plagued by a problem with paint
    peeling on the exterior wall of my breezeway.  During rains and damp
    periods moisture would visibly leach out of the clapboards.  There was
    no readily apparent source for the moisture.  I caulked the overhang
    above and made sure the drip edges and gutters were working correctly. 
    No change.  The problem occurs only on a 6' X 4' section of exterior
    wall.
    
    I mentioned the situation to a co-worker who loaned me his Sear's
    SIDING VENTILATION DRILL.  This is a jig that allows a 3/8" hole to be
    drilled from the bottom of the clapboard parallel to and just below the
    surface.  A plastic sleeve with a screen in it is then inserted into
    the hole to keep insects out.  After drilling 72 holes in the affected
    area, the leaching seems to have stopped.  I'm sure the moisture is
    still present but now it at least has a place to go.  Not an elegant
    solution but I had to do something.
    
    There are a few other places on the house where this treatment may be
    useful.  But I run out of the screened inserts that are used to plug
    the holes made by the drill.  This contraption is at least 20 years old
    and is no longer listed in the Sear's catalog.  When I took it in to a
    Sears store and showed it to a salesperson he said he had never seen
    one before.  Does anyone know where I can get more of the inserts?  Is
    there a newer technology/device/contraption that has evolved in the
    intervening 20 years since this this tool was available that addresses
    this problem?
    
    - gene

Call a Sears Parts/Repair  facility;   should be listed in your local telephone
book.  It's a good  bet  they  will  have  a  parts list on a 'fiche - even for
something that old.  They may even have some left in inventory.

Luck,
Dave

    You might look at one of the Sears specialized catalogs (specialogs)
    dealing with Home Improvement.  The last time I saw the tool listed
    (a few years back) it was in the specialog but NOT the regular
    catalog.

    I'm replacing my siding with red cedar clapboards.  Both sides of the
    clapboard will be stained before it goes up -- maybe brushed or rolled
    on, maybe dipped.  I'd heard (and .3 corroborates) that stain holds
    best on the rough side.  I'd prefer the smooth side out, so my question
    is:
    
    	Is it really better to expose the rough side?  Is there a
    	difference in ease of application?  In durability?  Is there that
    	much a difference in appearance?
    
    -- Kenny House

Hi Kenny, I also much prefer the smooth side out.....  the rough side will more
readily absorb the stain and will generally render a darker appearance when 
using the same color stain.  That's your personal choice, try a couple of 
samples before staining everything.  I beleive the smooth side out would last
longer, perhaps a more experienced noter will pipe in here.  My perspective is,
the rough side will also collect for airboure dust, dirt, pollen, etc.  Another
consideration, is the choice of nails.  Even galvinized nails will soon leave
runny dark streaks and transparent and semi-transparent stains.  I've been told 
to use stainless nails but haven't ever looked for them.  Any other noters have
suggestions?

Good luck  Frank

Thinking ahead, rough side out clapboards are a real chore to re-stain compared
to smooth side out.    However,  if  you  are  going  to let the siding weather
naturally, then the rough side  out  is  better.    Smooth  side  out shows the
ravages of time and weather (cracks, warping, etc.) more than rough.

Dave

  Both the siding people and the painters we hired to stain our cedar
  clapboard recommended rough side out. 

  The painters said it didn't make any difference to them as far as
  difficulty (and we paid them to hand-brush it, not spray), and it
  would look better. 

  The siding guys said that if you're staining, rather than painting,
  then you need the very top grade of siding if you're doing smooth side
  out or it will look terrible. We were able to use something like grade
  AA clear (or whatever it was called, I forget), which sounds fancy,
  but isn't the top grade. It's inexpensive compared to the higher grade
  needed if we had wanted smooth side out. We used a Cabot semi-solid
  stain and it looks great.

We did ours rough side out.  We stained both sides also.
The smooth side coat could bearly hold the stain and runs alot.
The rough side soaked up the stain nicely and looked good when installed.
We used California semi-transparent stains.  One coat on the inside and
two on the outside.  The outside finish almost looks like it has a light
sheen to it almost like a thin coat of varnish.  I think it will last
a long time.  We are very happy with the results.
-Larry Cohen

    Thanks for the quick replies.  I guess I shouldn't have come in to work
    on Sunday (when I first raised the issue), 'cause the BOSTON GLOBE'S
    "Handyman on Call" column had this item.
    
    Q:  For my new house, should I put the cedar clapboards on smooth- or
    rough-side showing?  I plan to apply a solid stain.
    
    A:  Either side is accceptable.  The rough side will give a rustic look
    but also is appropriate for a contemporary look.  The stain will hold
    better on the rough side.  On either side, apply a coat of exterior oil
    primer before staining to prevent cedar bleed, the color of the wood
    staining the finish. Do not use the primer if you use a semitransparent
    stain.
    
    My thanks to Peter Hotton.
    
    -- Kenny House

re: .11

I saw that too, and was surprised.  There are a number of notes here that
suggest you don't need a primer with a solid stain, at least on cedar (knots
in pine are another story).  Conversely, there are notes that suggest you
shouldn't use a semitransparent on cedar at all.

   Gary

    Porter Cable sells a model 303 Paint Remover that is essentially a disk
    sander with a carbide grit wheel that has a frame around it and you can
    set up the frame to the clapboards on your house (guidebars, etc). 
    Does anyone have one of these and how well does it work.  I know it's
    pretty heavy (builds up the arms, don't you know) but before I pay
    149.00 I'd like to know this is going to do the bulk of the job.  If
    anyone has any experience with this tool, please comment....
    
    ken

    
    re. -1
    
     Where did you see this tool?  I'd like to check it out.
    
     Has anyone ever considered using a hand held power planer to remove
     paint from clapboards?
    
     Mark
    

    SPag's and Tool Warehouse in Worc.  Price is mailorder though.  kc

    In preparing to paint my house exterior is it a good idea to wash the
    house (painted cedar shingles).  If so are there any suggestions on
    what to use and how to use it.  For example, is there a pre-bottled
    house wash that you can connect to your hose and just spray it on?
    
    

    ps., dear moderator,
    
    To save you some time, I did a DIR/TITLE=HOUSE   and WASH   and PAINT
    and could not find a related topic.
    
    Thank's.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
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continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    My decorator / stain-supplier is trying to convince me, my contractor
    and my painter that the initial, pre-installation coat for red cedar
    clapboards should be a primer, not the same as the final stain.  The
    rest of us figure to go with the real thing for both the
    pre-installation coat and the next (can't really say "final," can I?)
    coat.  The decorator says her stain supplier (Fuller-O'Brien)
    recommends the primer.  I assume that she's talking about a stain
    primer, rather than paint, but ya never know.
    
    We want to end up with a solid, oil-based stain in what F-O'B calls
    Spruce Green (dark green).
    
    Does anyone have experience with a primer for stain?  Am I on solid
    ground demanding two coats of the real stain?
    
    I won't bore you with the story of my decorator's selecting a color for
    the siding that comes only in paint -- now she's busy adding enough
    magenta tint to the Hunter Green to make it look *almost* like Spruce
    Green.
    
    -- Kenny House

  When in doubt, read the instructions. We used a Cabot "semi-solid"
  stain, which didn't require a prime coat, and we used two coats. Other
  manufacturers probably have different recommendations about whether to
  use a prime coat or not, and yes, it would be a clear coat, not a
  paint primer.

  On new wood, I would definitely recommend two coats of the stain, even
  if you use a primer, especially with the color you've picked. We used
  a similar color (Cabot's "spruce blue"), and on some of the rougher
  spots, a touch of the cedar color shows through. It wouldn't have hurt
  to use three coats -- or maybe a primer and two coats. One coat of
  stain would, in my opinion, be unacceptable.

I would like to remove some rotting clapboards from my house, upgrade the
insulation by adding a layer of Celotex type insulation, and finally siding
with cedar shingles.

What, if anything, should I put between the Celotex insulatioon and the cedar
shingles?

-Mike

Depending on how thick the celotex is, you're likely to need something.  It's
difficult to find nails long enough to anchor the shingles through the celotex
and thin enough not to split the shingles.

You also don't want to do this unless you're sure the house has a good vapor 
barrier on the inside of the wall.  Celotex (with its foil covering) makes an
excellent vapor barrier, and a good barrier on the outside matched with a poor
barrier inside is an invitation to rot.

Paul

    Is there a "trick" or special tool used to remove a cedar shingle
    and replacing it without having to remove/replace all the UPPER
    COURSES of shingles?
    
    I was thinking of trying to slip a hack-saw blade underneath the
    shingle to be removed and cutting the 2-3 nails fasting it. Any
    comments/suggestions?

    Yes, there's a special tool:
    
    	+------------+
    	|	     |		It slips up under the shingles to cut
    	|	     |		the nails.  The lower end (not drawn)
    	|	     |		has a handle and a place you can hit
    	|	     |		with a hammer.
    	| /|      |\ |
    	|/ |      | \|
    	   |	  |
    	   |	  |
    	   |	  |
    	    ...
    	  handle down here
    

 
    Hi everybody,

    I just replaced old clapboards on my house with pine clapboards.  The 
    reason I used pine as opposed to cedar was cost (pine was half the price).
    
    The guy at the hardware store seemed knowledgeable about clapboards and 
    told me that if I wanted to use the pine, I would first have to shellac 
    over the knots so that they would not bleed thru the paint.  After using 
    the shellac I primed and put 2 coats of Sears Best Latex on.  About a 
    week later I noticed the paint was bubbling in spots where I shellac'd.  
    Not all the shellac'd spots, but a good number of them.  The rest of the 
    paint looked good.
    
    One of my friends thought that maybe the wood was still drying out, but I 
    find it highly coincidental that only the shellac'd spots were bubbling.  
    In the mean time, to get rid of the bubbles I rub them with my finger (to
    pop them) then paint over.  Seems to fix the problem, but slowly more
    bubbles are appearing elsewhere.  I don't know how long this will go
    on.  Any ideas?
    
    Also, the clapboards have changed size over time (1 month).  Where the 
    boards overlap eachother, the paint seal broke.  I kind of expected that 
    to happen and so went back a couple of weeks after the paint job and 
    painted those areas.  Now, 2 weeks later, it's happening again.  Should I 
    seal the overlapping of the clapboards or just wait till next spring for 
    the wood to completely dry?  More ideas?
    
    thanks,
    
    tj.

    Well, this isn't about pine, but it seemed like the best place to
    put this.  It was either here or under buying wainscoating....

    I'm going to be putting up some 1X6 v-groove cedar in my 3 season porch.
    I know I should stain/poly the tongue before installing, but should I
    put poly on both sides of the wood?

    I already have a hot tub with a similar cedar skirt, in the room.  I
    finished that with a coat of Thomson's then 3 coats of poly.  Just 
    wondering if Thomsons on the back side of the cedar would be enough to 
    seal it and reduce shrinkage.  Or should I just hit it with a coat of
    poly, or should the back side be left unsealed?

    Thanks,

    George

    re: .13
    If the cedar isn't dry to begin with, it is *going* to shrink as
    is dries, no matter what you put on it.  The question is just
    how long it is going to take: 6 months, 1 year, or 5 years.
    I suppose you could embed the wood in a Lucite block and
    it wouldn't shrink, but otherwise I think you're going to get
    shrinkage, eventually.

    I'm about to purchase V-groove to do my back porch.  What are
    intelligent questions to ask?  I called around and the prices vary
    dramatically from place to place.  Why?
    
    How do you do V-groove?  If you start in a corner, do you face the
    tongue out from the corner?  If so then I assume that you nail in at
    the base of the tongue at an angle toward the back.  Is that correct?
    What size finishing nails should I use?  Is there a good trick for
    matching up the pieces above a window with those below the window 
    (I'm installing the V-groove vertically) so that when you
    get to the other side of the window the full pieces start matching up
    again?  I'm going to poly them before putting them up.  Any other
    hints?  I have 1/4 plywood backing all the way around and plan to glue
    as well as nail.  What kind of glue?  Liquid nails?
    
    
    				Thanks.   - Vick

    Scribe the first board to the wall along the groove side.  Nail thru the
    tongue side at an angle.  You might try a floor nailer to get the right
    angle and speed nailing.  The drawback is it may be heavy to hold in
    place and bang the nail.  Use a plumb bob or level and mark vertical
    reference lines on your backing to line up the boards, kinda like
    installing wallpaper.  Small gaps of 1/8 do not show up so you can
    adjust the boards a tad to make then vertical.  When going around
    windows you can use the vertical reference lines to keep things lined
    up.  
    
    The edge for the "last" board on a wall should also be scribed to meet
    the corner.  When making the cut along the scribed line, make the cut
    slightly back angled.  This will give you a thinner edge to fit up
    against the corner and will be easer to plane if you missed your cut
    line.  It will also help eleviate stress when you wedge it into place.
    
    Ideally I guess you should try to center the boards on the wall so that
    the two boards which are in the corner are about equal width.  Kinda
    like when installing tile, you start from the middle and work out.  We
    have vertical groove paneling in our home and they just started with a
    full board and the last board was cut to fit.  Visually no one notices.
    The only problem I forsee is if the last board needs to be less than
    1 inch.  There will not be enough to cover the groove and scribe and
    nail.
    
    Our paneling was put up when the house was built in '58.  I have done
    some remodeling in that room and it looks like they used an axe or
    hatchet to make the vertical cuts to fit around the doorways.  It gets
    covered with moulding so the cuts don't show but it seems like a crude
    method.  Maybe they were using the grain of the wood to split the
    boards and the roughing up with axe for speed reasons.  Anyway the trim
    covers this mystery.
    

    Wait!  So do I "start in the middle and work out", or do I "Scribe
    the first board to the wall along the groove side"?
    
    >The only problem I forsee is if the last board needs to be less than
    >1 inch.  There will not be enough to cover the groove and scribe and
    >nail.
    
    I don't understand what you mean here.
    
    					- Vick

    
    >  Do I "start in the middle and work out" or do I "Scribe the first
    >  board to the wall along the groove side"?
    
    If it were me I would "scribe the first board to the wall along the
    groove side" and work my way across the wall.  One reason being that
    you would not be able to nail the tongues when you worked "backwards"
    from the middle.  
    
    >The only problem I forsee is if the last board needs to be less than 1
    >inch.  There will not be enough to cover the groove and scribe and
    >nail.
    
    I would put a few boards together and them measure the space it takes
    up.  6" boards when tongued and grooved are not necessarily 6" and
    when you put several together, space between boards will be introduced. 
    Once I had figured out just how much real space each board takes up, I
    would measure the wall and determine if I will end on a full board or a
    partial board.  If the the partial board is less than 2", I would trim
    2" off the *first* board.  
    
    My reasoning here is that I want the last board that I put up to be at
    least 2" wide so that there is a groove and some board left to scribe
    to fit the corner.  Less than 2" wide and the ability to shape that
    board to fit the space will be more difficult.
    
    What I am doing is making the first board and the last board both
    partial boards so that the last board is wide enough so that it is easy
    to work with.  This is in effect "centering" the middle vertical board.
    
    Does that make more sense or did I just confuse you more?  

    I put V-groove up in my porch, started from one end, and didn't have any 
    problems in lining up the boards above and below the windows.  The
    porch has 12 4'X4' windows.  The piece over the window and the
    corresponding piece below the window were cut from the same board so
    that at the other side they were always lined up.  You will probably have 
    to scribe full length boards to fit around the sides of the window frames.  
    I didn't worry about figuring it out so that the side boards were scribed 
    the same around each window.  I've got enough things to drive me nuts.
    
    George

    re: .18  Yeah, thanks, that makes sense.  - Vick

    I am going to put a deck on the side of my old victorian.
    Am going to try to duplicate a front porch (without the
    roof) don't want to detract from the victorian theme.
    
    Anyway I know I have to remove a few rows of clapboards
    to get to the wood that I will be bolting into.  
    
    My question: How do you get the damn things off!!At which
    line do I start to take them off.  I tried to pry them off
    last night, started at the bottom of the house, and found
    that they didnt move.  Do I have to start up three courses
    because of the overlap?
    
    This is my first carpentry project so bear with me.
    
    Carol
    buffer::racine
    

    
>   My question: How do you get the damn things off!!

        A flat bar (Stanley Wonder Bar or equiv), a hammer, and a
    lot of patience.  You will have to start above where you need
    to remove the clapboards.  If you can see where the nails
    are, drive the flat bar under the clapboard at the that point
    and pry gently.  Repeat for all the nails in that board.
    Once the board is pried up a bit you should be able pop the
    nails so they can be pulled by rapping the board close to
    each nail.  I'm sure you will get that hang of it.  If you
    need to save the clapboards, time and patience are the key.

                      <<< Note 4184.0 by BUFFER::RACINE >>>
                         -< clapboards, how to remove >-

>    My question: How do you get the damn things off!!At which
>    line do I start to take them off.  I tried to pry them off
>    last night, started at the bottom of the house, and found
>    that they didnt move.  Do I have to start up three courses
>    because of the overlap?
    
 	Carol,

Instead of the flatbar mentioned in .1, you might also want to consider a 
tool called a "cats paw". it will allow you to hammer the "paw" under the 
nailhead to pull the nail without trying to bend the whole clapboard up at 
once. You may even find you use both bars to get the boards off without a 
lot of splitting of the wood. Ask your local tool purveyor to show you both 
tools, he/she should know what a cats paw is.

You may want to save the boards of you can, just for fill ins anywhere you 
need to replace a clap board. 

Another useful tool is the Stanley reciprocal blade holder. This holds the 
saw blades used in reciprocal saws and is a cheap tool for all the uses it 
has. With a metal cutting blade, you can slide it under a clapboard and saw 
thru a hidden nail to remove a board without damaging the board that 
overlaps it. Again, your local toy, er tool shop will probably have these 
around. Buy a variety of 2-3 blades. I use mine for a hacksaw, rough wood 
saw, pruning tool when I need to beat a tree limb into submission,etc...

Somewhere many notes back in a reply is hidden the reason I know all about 
residing a house..... 8^(

Good luck!

    Vic

    I have a house that was built in 1920. It was sided with cedar 
    shingles. Sometime in the 50's or 60's, aluminum siding was put up.
    Since I never liked the look of the AL, I decided that I was going to 
    find out the condition of the cedar underneath. (brave or stupid, you
    choose!), so after ripping off a small section, I found that It was 
    in very good condition and it had never been painted!.  This weekend
    I took all the siding off the back side (2 story, very high, very
    scary) So I have a few questions....
    
    - I plan on staining with a solid stain, is there any particular
    surface prep since the shingles are so old? (I'm having the whole house
    power washed with TSP)
    
    - there are some holes where the AL was nailed up, what should I use to
    fill in these holes?
    
    Any thing you can tell me about this would be much appreciated.
    
    thanx,
    Marc

    Just one aside - take the old aluminum siding to a scrap metal dealer.
    I think you will discover that it will be *VERY* worth your while.....

    I agree with -1.  You may make more money than what the siding was
    worth when it was installed... *8)----------))))))))

    Do you  need  to  stain  the  cedar?  I like the look of weathered
    cedar,  so I intend to not treat the cedar shed we just put up. Am
    I missing something?

--David

    The reason that I am staining is because I will need to replace some of
    the old shingles and it would look funny with scattered new shingles.
    
    I called a scrapyard the other day and they told me that they would
    give me 18 to 20 cents a pound, I was hoping it would be more :~(
    
    This leads me to my next question, where can I get ahold of shingles
    that have NOT been rebutted or resquared ??????.
    
    Thanx
    Marc

    You ought to be able to get non-rebutted/resquared shingles at
    any lumberyard, I expect.  I know Coldwell's in Berlin, Mass.
    has them, or did the last time I checked.
    
    You may be surprised at how many pounds of aluminum you have, and
    even at 18 cents a pound it may add up to considerable $.  
    Try another scrapyard?  I expect they'll all be in the same range,
    but you never know.

    Thanks Steve, I just called Coldwells and they have them in stock.  
    $32 for 16" and $35 for 18".  The guy said this should cover 25 sq. ft.
    with 5" to the weather. (price is per bundle).
    
    Thanx,
    Marc

    You may want to investigate the different grades.  Seems to me that
    even the poorer grades haves names that would make one think they
    were pretty good.  I don't recall what the grades are, but "Grade A"
    shingles might in fact be pretty bad; the really good shingles may
    be called "special select" or something. Check what you're getting.
    

    I am about to start pre-staining the siding that is going to go on our 
  house and I'm not sure what to do with the siding after it is stained.
  Should I build some king of a rack?  Should I stack them with spacers 
  between each row?  I am also thinking of running some kind of rope/wire
  across the inside of the unfinished rooms.
    What do you think is the best way to dry them.

                                     Tom

    With vertical siding, lean em against the house.  With clapboards,
    make piles on sawhorses using 8 or 10 foot boards to extend the horse
    width.
    

     
      I'm using clapboards.  Do I stack the wet clapboards on top of each
    other?  Should I put spacers between the rows?  Will the spacers leave
    marks on the clapboards?

    I have another question about my siding job.  Since I will be using a
    solid stain, is there a problem with using white cedar instead of red.
    The white cedar is almost half the price and I figured since the stain
    is solid, you couldn't tell the difference once the job is finished.
    
    so what do you think?
    
    Marc

    I wouldn't stack the clapboards sith spacers.  The spacers will
    mar the wet stain.  I built a rack for the clapboards.  Take a scrap
    board and nail a nail every inch leaving about an inch of the nail
    showing.  Build a bunch of these into a rack using a rail of nails for
    each 8 feet of clapboard length.                                     
    

    
   I talked with someone from Edwards paint in Worcester and he said that 
  I should seal the clapboards on both sides before I stain them.  Do you
  think that I seal them I can get away with only one coat of stain after
  they are up, or should I seal and stain before they are installed and do 
  a second coat after they are up?

                                     Tom

      I  reccommend  that  you  use  the same stain on both sides of the
      clapboards.  For drying, get enough firing strips  (or  scraps  of
      wood)  to lay out about 30-40 clapboards at a time.  You'll need a
      strip every 3-4 feet of clapboard.  
      
      Lay  out  about 4-6 at a time with the side that'll be against the
      house up.  Stain  that  side,  then  turn  them  over.   Yes,  the
      stickers  will  mark  the  unfinished  side,  but  so  what?   Its
      protected  and  since   you'll   never   see   it   the   cosmetic
      considerations  are  nil!   Then stain the good side.  Leave these
      and move on to the next batch.  
      
      By  the  time you've done 30-40 the first batch will be dry enough
      to be stacked.  Stack them with good sides together.
      
      When you instal the clapboards have a can of stain handy and touch
      up all the ends you cut as you  work.   This  should  give  you  a
      prety  good  looking  wall, but I recommend a second coat of stain
      after installation.  If you don't do it right away, you'll need it
      in  a  year  or so -- it may be convieneint to put it of for a few
      months?

    Hi,
    	Is this type of siding still available?  There are spots which need
    	to be replaced.  Also, the stuff on this house is 12" wide.  Is it
    	the same as masonite?
    
    Thanks,
    Matt

    
    
    Question on masonite siding? 
    
    can I use felt paper/90 weight  under my 8"X 1/2"
    clapboard  masonite siding?
    
    I would like to,
    but I hear it might work to break down the masonite. 
     Thanks for any help
    buzz

    Excuse me for asking.  Why on earth would you want to use 90# paper 
    under siding?  
    I see one major problem with the idea, aside from it being a
    waste of money.  If you do it you'll have a very solid vapor barrier
    just where it should not be - on the cold side of your wall.  You
    need something that is permeable to water vapor.  These days they
    use Tyvek; in the old days they used rosin-coated "building paper".
    Sometimes they used 15# felt, which basically is not good either
    because of the vapor barrier issue.

My front porch, which is a concrete slab, spans the doorway (thank goodness),
as well as about 4 feet of siding on either side.  The slab is about 2 inches
higher than the sill plate.  When the house was initially built (27 years ago),
the first row of shingles went below the top of the slab - without any caulking
or flashing.




current (side view):
                                ||
                               ||
                              ||
                             ||
     +---------------------+||->shingles extend below the slab
     |   slab              |||
     +---------------------+


I'm in the process of replacing the rotting area now, and would
like input on what I'm considering.  I think I should do the following:

    1-extend the pine fascia that is currently under the door only to the
      end of the porch.
    2-place flashing on top of the fascia.
    3-place shingles on top of the flashing.
    4-caulk the fascia where it meets the concrete slab.

proposed:


                                ||
                               ||
                              ||->remaining rows of shingles
                             ||
                           +---> flashing between fascia and shingles
                          ."||-> caulking where the "." is
     +---------------------+||-> fascia board below slab, even with one below
     |    slab             |||   front door.
     +---------------------+

    This is a question on nailing patterns.  Although it isn't reflected in
    the title to this note, there is a discusssion of nailing siding here
    already, so Ithoiught that I'ld continue it.  However, other references
    are welcome!
    
    I'm just finishing residing part of my house, having installed a new
    bow window where sliders used to be.  The house was orignially sided in
    5" pine bevel siding, (that's 4 1/2" net) nailed up with 3 1/2"
    exposure.  The nails were driven at the bottom of each clapboard, so
    that each nail went through two pieces of siding and each strip of
    siding had two nail holes.
    
    Well, you can't buy 5" siding, and when I finally found a place to mill
    it for me, they wanted $2 / ft for Cedar.  So I'm residing with 6" red
    cedar bevel siding from Somerville Lumber.  The instructions that came
    with the siding, and various books that I've read, all say not to nail
    through more than one board at a time, so that is what I've done.
    
    Of course, I'm installing the new siding with the same exposure (3
    1/2") as the old, so I have 2" of overlap.  Thus, my nails are 2 1/8" or
    2 1/4" from the bottom of the boards.  
    
    Along came Hurricane Bob, and gave the whole (still unfinished) job a
    good soaking.  The boards have cupped, quite badly.
    
    Thanks to this note, I now understand the rationale for not putting in
    more than one nail per board.  But what should I do to minimize further
    cupping?
    
    [OK, if the answer is that I should remove all of the siding that I've
    just put up and rip off an inch from each clapboard, tell me.  Just
    don't expect me to do it.  I doubt if I could anyway, since the
    stainless steel ring-nails won't come out.]
    

I was surprised when you said earlier notes (and manufactures) recommended
only driving nails though one board so I reread all the replies (including one
I wrote 3 years ago) and still say that sounds wrong to me.  In fact, I don't 
think I've ever seen siding put up any other way.  Could it be someone 
misunderstood?  Perhaps the recommendation was not to put 2 nails in one board
(vertically that is)....

Also, if you try to put in one nail above the underlying board, when you hit it
the final blow there's a high chance of splitting the clapboard since there's
nothing under it to support it.

-mark

 > I was surprised when you said earlier notes (and manufactures) recommended
 > only driving nails though one board so I reread all the replies (including
 > one I wrote 3 years ago) and still say that sounds wrong to me.  In fact, I
 > don't think I've ever seen siding put up any other way.  Could it be
 > someone misunderstood?  Perhaps the recommendation was not to put 2 nails
 > in one board (vertically that is).... 

I was surprised too.  What I got out of reading the previous replies to
this note is that, assuming one nails every board

    nailing through two pieces of siding == putting two nails in each board,  
                                            one above the other

Let's try the diagram.


                     |----/_// /|
                            / / |
                           / /_ |
                     |----/_// /|
                            / / |
                           / /_ |
                     |----/_// /|
                            / / |
                           / /  |
                          /_/   |
                 

It makes sense to me that this will promote splitting, since the width of
the board changes as it absorbs moisture, while the distance between the
nails stays the same.

But it also makes sense that doing what I've done, and nailing through the
center of the boards, promotes cupping.

 > Also, if you try to put in one nail above the underlying board, when you
 > hit it the final blow there's a high chance of splitting the clapboard
 > since there's nothing under it to support it. 

Yes, I noticed this too.

So, now that we understand the problem -- what's the solution

    Andrew

If you're looking for a solution to the existing situation, I don't have one
unless you consider pulling out the old nail, filling in the holes and 
renailing.  ugh...

-mark

    
    > ... filling in the holes and renailing. ...
    
    Renailing *how* ?  With two nails per board?  Why will that be better
    than renailing with *three* nails per board, which I could do just by 
    *adding* another nail?
    
    	Andrew
    

    My suggestion......nail with 5P Hot Dipped Galvenized nails ;1 inch 
    up from the bottom of the board into each stud. Nails on end, 1 inch in.  
    
    Re-nail boards that you have installed,and hope for the best OR remove
    the stuff and start over.
    
    
    Marc H.
    

    Re: .14
    
    Those are box nails...by the way.
    
    Marc H.

    I'm putting V-grove up on my sloped porch ceiling, horizontally.  Does
    it matter if the tongues point up the slope or down the slope?  
    
    						- Vick

    Practically speaking, I doubt it.  In theory at least I'd guess the
    tongues ought to be uphill, so any water that leaks in will not get
    caught in the grooves (though of course your roof will never leak!).
    

    It's easier to start at the bottom of the pitch, with the tongue
    pointing up, and then install row after row working up. This way
    your sliding the groove over the previous tongue, and the boards will
    lay in place better while you nail. Does it matter ? Shouldn't, because
    it's all inside anyway, right ?

    Unfortunately, because there is a brickwork chimney at the top of the 
    slope, I think I will have to start there and work down.  Or maybe it's 
    just my inexperience that's making me say that.  When I get to the last 
    board, will I be able to scribe it and fit it in?  It would have to be
    scribed, as otherwise the tongue would show.  It wouldn't actually be the 
    last board, either, as I need to carry the boards around the corners of 
    the chimney, if you understand what I'm saying.  
    
    					- Vick

    re .23
    
    	Why does it matter whether you start at the bottom or top?  Either
    way you can have the tongue exposed.  Or am I missing something?
    
	Whether you start at the top or bottom there are different
    concerns.  Either way, unless you're real lucky, the last board is going 
    to have to be scribed and cut.  It might be less noticable at the top of 
    the slope rather than at the bottom.  If you do start at the bottom figure 
    out beforehand the space you'll be left with when you get to the chimney.  
    If you're left with a 3/4" space between the board and the chimney it 
    doesn't leave you a lot of room to scribe anything.  If there's not
    enough space then you probably will have to scribe the first board to
    give you a larger space at the chimney.
    		_________________________________________
			  |           |make sure there is enough space here 
			  | chimney           |to scribe the next board
			  |___________|V
                _________________________________________
      
    		_________________________________________
    
                _________________________________________
      
    
     George 
    

    re .25    why do you have to start at the bottom
    
    As I said earlier, you don't have too, but "I think" it's easier. An
    exagerated (ooh, sp?) example of the point I was trying to make
    would be sheathing a roof with a steep pitch. It would be much easier
    (to me) to nail down the lowest board first (plywood, whatever), then
    when you set the next one on top it will slide into place and sit there
    easier then if you had to push it up against a higher board ? (did I
    explain that at all or confuse you ?) But you're right, you can work
    either way. I just did the upstairs of a cabin the same way that is
    being asked about here, and by working bottom up my wife could easily
    hold one end of the board in place, while I snugged and nailed from the
    other end. I doubt if she could have "pushed it into position and held
    it ther  without some trouble.
    	As far as having to work top down because of the obstacles, you
    would only have to cut back about an extra 3/8" (notch deeper, where
    you're fitting around the obstacle), and you'll be able to slide the
    board in. But you may be able to or even want to apply trim boards
    around the edges of the job to conceal any cracks or imperfect fits,
    so the fit may not have to be "perfect". In case you haven't thought
    about it, you'll have to leave a little clearance on the last board
    so that you will have room to get it on the tongue, so a molding may
    be best.
    	One thing I did, I tried to cut the first board so that the last
    board would end close to the same width as the first. I also cut
    45 degree bevels on the ends where two boards would overlap, so that
    if they dried/shrunk I wouldn't be looking at my insulation.
    	Enjoy, I think it's a fun job, and it'll look good I'm sure !
    
    
    				Steve

I'd start at the bottom and let gravity help rather than hinder. Point the
tongues up. When you get to the top at either the ceiling or the fireplace,
cut the back part of the grove away so the board just lays in place instead
of being fitted over the tongue of the preceeding board. Use an extra nail
or two to hold it there.

Mickey.

    Thanks, everyone, for all the good tips.  I think I have a plan now.
    					- Vick
    
    P.S.  I think I asked my first question about finishing this porch
    about three years ago in this notesfile.  Slow but steady.  :^)
    Well, mostly just slow.  :^)

    re .26
    
    	Ahha, got it.  The way I read your reply I thought you were saying
    that the only way to have the tongue exposed was to start at the
    bottom.  That's why it didn't make sense to me.
    
    George

    My house is in the process of being resided with red cedar clapboards.
    After 15 years, the old masonite siding was rotting badly. Anyway, my
    question is this. Should the clapboards on each side of the house line
    up with one another? I noticed that on my garage, the contractor did
    not get good alignment between the front and the side. That is to say
    the bottom edges of the clapboards on the front don't line up perfectly
    with those on the side. Is this normal or is it a sign of poor
    workmanship?

I'd say that they should line up at the corners. It's not that hard to do
unless you are working on such a small section that the "adjustments" look
worse than the mismatched corners.

Mickey.

    I'll also vote for the "line up around the corner". When I put
    clapboards on my addition,I used a 1x3 furring board to help transfer
    the dimensions from one side to another(also called "story board").
    
    Marc H.

    Of course they ought to line up at the corners!  

>     ... Should the clapboards on each side of the house line 
>      up with one another?  ...

      Functionally it makes no difference.

      Aesthetically  some  will never notice and others will think it is
      obvious and looks terrible.

      If  you're  using  wood  siding  it  is common to vary the spacing
      slightly to match up with  the  tops  and  bottoms  of  doors  and
      windows.   (This  can  make for a better, more weathertight job of
      flashing these openings.)  So if different sides of the house have
      different height doors and windows it might be hard to line up the
      siding on all sides.
      Other than that, I'd say that failure to line up at corners  is  a
      pretty  good  indication of sloppy workmanship.  I'd worry that it
      might indicate other, functional problems with the installation.

      For [most?] aluminum and vinyl siding the spacing doesn't vary, so
      if the bottom course is at the same level on all sides the all the
      courses should always line up.

      If  you're  using  wood  siding  it  is common to vary the spacing
      slightly to match up with  the  tops  and  bottoms  of  doors  and
      windows.   (This  can  make for a better, more weathertight job of
      flashing these openings.)  So if different sides of the house have
      different height doors and windows it might be hard to line up the
      siding on all sides.

>>>One trick to hanging clapboards is to make a guage that is scrap 1x4 
pine, about 8-10" long. Cut notches in one edge to match up with the exact 
exposure you want the clapboards to have. As you hang them, you hold the 
guage under the previous board and drop the next into the notch to give you 
exactly the same exposure as the last. If you lined up the bottom of the 
boards around the corner with the side you are working on, then you should 
keep even with the boards all the way up, although you should check every 
2-3 layers. 

Another hint, keep using your level every 2-3 layers even with the guage. 
Otherwise you will end up with boards that are not level.

    Vic

	    This was over a year ago, but there was discussion about
	cedar shingles expanding or shrinking.  The answer is simple...
	both.  The shingles on the north side, which never see the sun,
	will expand.  All the other sides (three, usually) will shrink.
	    I was also told that you should always use exactly TWO
	nails per shingle.  That's for every shingle, small or large,
	except the one that goes at the peak.  For there, you are only
	allowed to use one.  Can't say as I know why this is important
	but the inspector who told me this was very firm about this
	point.

					Tim

    Our house is not even a year old, and we've noticed a quarter
    size hole, in one of the cedar clapboards on the outside of
    our house.  We called an exterminator to look at it today, but
    I wondered if anyone had any ideas?  
    
    

    I found that woodpeckers are responsible for two quarter-to half dollar
    size holes in the trim boards of my house. Have you ever answered the
    knock at the door and found no one there?
    :')
    
    JR

    :-)....hahah.  I thought of that, but I don't remember hearing
    any noise.  Would they be out in the winter?  Weirdest thing!
    I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for "woody the woodpecker".
    
    

I heard a woodpecker on Saturday, so they're definitely around in the winter.

    How do you get rid of them... I mean other than the obvious, rifle!
    
    

    STARLING are also house attackers, it was the crazyest think, why they
    chose to peck where they did, just on th eside of the house not in
    corner, or a peak but 4 feet from anything, just started digging away.
    
    They could be telling us of a bigger problem "BUGS" in the wood.  Why
    else would they attack a flat wall of wood.
    
    
    Paul 
    

    try stuffing something (old newspaper, etc...) into the hole. If it is
    gone the next day you will know that you have tenants. Of course you
    may need to wait until hibernation season is over. 
    	If there are no tenents seal the hole permanently. If ther are
    tenants make sure that you evict them first, (unless you like the musty
    smell of small rodents decaying in your walls.)

    The strange part is its a brand new house, not even a year old yet.
    That's why the thought of bugs in the wood seems so odd.  
    
    We'll see what the exterminator says.
    

    Carepnter Bees will eat holes in cedar. We found several last year. 
    
    You will probably find sawdust directly beneath the hole. The holes are
    perfectly round.
    
    Usually the Cedar siding is finished with some type of preserver which
    the bees don't seem to like.
    
    If you have a bee inside you might be able to hear it eating, kind of a
    crunching sound.
    
    I sprayed some of the Wasp/Hornet spray into a hole and a few minutes
    later one rather large and somewhat dazed bee cvame out to meet his
    doom.
    
    
    Good luck
    
    Mike
    
    

I'm interested in the fact that this is a new house.  In new construction, with 
kiln-dried wood, you shouldn't have an infestation so fast, unless you had a 
colossal leak causing a wet area behind the siding, or the siding was garbage to
begin with (i.e. already rotting or buggy).

I confess I don't know much about cedar clapboards, but could it be a knot that
has popped out?

Elaine

    
    I'm currently in the early stages of building a home and am trying to
    make the decision to go with hemlock or cedar siding.   In either case
    it seems clear that the siding should be installed rough side out to
    hold the paint better.   The advantages that I've heard with hemlock
    are that it's a bit cheaper and it won't bleed tanic acid (hence I
    won't have to paint it in 3 years).   Are there any advantages of cedar
    over hemlock?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
                  -- Phil
    

RE: .0

 Hemlock shrinks, splits, warps, the knots fall out and it has quite a 
proclivity to loosen any nail used to try and hold it in place provided you 
don't split it in the first place when trying to drive the nail.

 Hemlock also does not last and weather as well as Cedar.

 Spend the money and get cedar. The clearer the better and you'll never have 
to worry about it.

    Moved to here.
================================================================================
Note 4669.0             CVG clapboard siding info needed                 1 reply
DATABS::ROYAL                                        12 lines  24-JUN-1992 12:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I'm in the process of having a house built.  Today a bunch of exterior
    siding appeared on the job site.   The label on each "bunch" of siding
    said "Western Red Cedar Grade V"   I guess I expected to read something
    like "Red Cedar Grade A".   It finally hit me that the "V" means
    vertical (for vertical grain) and since the siding is clear (no knots)
    that it must be clear vertical grain (or CVG).   Does anyone know how
    this compares to your standard Grade A red cedar siding?   
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
                    -- Phil

    
    My home, and the exterior siding, is about 22 years old.  The builders
    user some sort of siding material that is made of pressed wood.  Each
    "clapboard" is about 10 inches wide and a half inch thick.  Apparently
    it is a popular building material as it is fast and cheap.
    
    The trouble is that on one side of the house moisture seems to have
    gotten in around the nail heads, and the siding is slowly expanding
    (like a sponge) as the water enters.  
    
    The paint at the points where this is happening is starting to crack 
    allowing more moisure to enter.  In a few places close to the ground 
    the siding is disintegrating.
    
    I would like to avoid re-siding (or adding vinyl siding) now, and put it
    off a couple years until I have the money to re-side (or vinyl side) the
    whole house.
    
    Has anyone worked with this pressed wood siding before?  Is there a way
    to preserve it longer with wood preservative and paint?  What should I
    patch the exposed points with?
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated!
    
    John

Sounds like that Masonite siding junk. Too bad.

Try any waterproof sealer and best of luck.

-Jack

Well, this note is a little old, but since I'm about to have my house 
re-sided, I thought I'd throw in a couple of comments/questions.  Earlier 
replies suggest building a trough for stain dipping or using a PVC pipe.  
The contracter I've lined up suggested something he saw on TOH.  Buy 2 10' 
sections of vinyl or aluminum gutter, join them together and cap the ends. 
You're ready to dip. Since they're probably only about 4" deep, you have to 
dip one edge, flip it over and dip the other side,  But it'll be cheaper 
than that length of PVC pipe.  Plus, when you're done, if you need gutters 
on the house...

Next comment... Reading all of the notes in here that have anything to do 
with staining new siding was not as informative as I had hoped and left me 
a bit uncertain what I wanted to do.  Advice/opinions vary quite a bit 
based on personal preferences and individual circumstances.  But that's 
okay - the info at least led me to ask more questions than I would have 
thought of on my own.  I'm still not sure whether to go with semi-solid or 
solid stain.  I'm told that after a couple of coats, solid stain CAN crack 
and peel like latex paint - and I've seen this on my neighbor's house.  But 
it sounds like semi-solid doesn't last all that long, and I'm not really up 
for re-staining every 3-4 years.  My wife wants to consider a bleaching 
oil/wood preservative...I've got to do more investigating on this topic.

As for the re-siding, we'll be going with A-Grade Rustic cedar (he claims 
there will be NO knots), 4" exposure, nailing through both courses of 
siding with stainless steel nails.  Corner boards will be replaced as 
needed with matching pine stock.  I considered replacing trim with 5/4", 
but since I'd have to get the power company to come out and disconnect the 
power in order to replace one of the corner boards where the line connects 
to the house, I dropped that idea fast.

I was quite shocked at the very wide range of estimates I received.  After 
asking a lot of questions to ensure apples-to-apples comparison, I still 
could not account for the drastic differences.  I guess some folks were 
just a lot hungrier for business.  The estimates I obtained were $7200, 
$11,000, and $13,000!  The low bid included replacing a kitchen window, 
removing/repairing/re-installing a large family room window (sill rot), and 
re-flashing a cricket where I have a water leak.  

The $13000 bid did not include ANY of these things.  It did include 
back-priming, which accounted for about $1500 and it specified regular 
A-grade (not "rustic").  He claims that's about $.02 to $.03 per linear 
foot difference. At about 6600 ft for the job, that's only a couple hundred 
bucks.  The middle bid specified 4-1/2" exposure and a few other things 
that made me question the quality of the work.

I've got references I trust on both the low and high bidder regarding their 
work quality, so I'm taking the chance and going with the low bidder.  
Anyone got any thoughts on other things that might cause the wide range of 
estimates?

    
    Why don't *you* write a single specification and ask for bids
    to the spec?  It sounds like you're getting a wide range of prices
    because you are asking builders to write/work to their own materials
    & finish spec.
    
    knowing nothing abuit US building methods, I bought a book called
    "Building Wood Houses" (published by Sterling, $12-95) in Trendlines.
    It's based on national codes and simply sets out the optimum materials
    grades and applications for varying budgets.  It tells you about
    the different finish options, and I *think* it said something
    about exterior solid stain lasting 8-10 years.
    
    (I've found it almost as useful as the info in this file.)
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    PS - just had a complete repaint after the original job 8 years ago.
    The original material was Olympic solid stain.  There was very little
    cracking and peeling even on the extreme weather exposure.  I reckon
    if you went with primer & 2 topcoats over sawn siding you would
    not need to repaint for many years.
    
    
    

	I am looking at a new house which has Masonite siding. Is this the 
	same as Insulite? I have seen other discussions of Insulite but
	nothing on Masonite.

	The builder says he has used it for twenty years now. Does anyone 
	have a house with Masonite or know of it's reputation?

	Thanks for any help you can offer!

			Chris

    Most of the houses on my street originally had masonite siding. It's 
    an inexpensive siding. However, the useful life is about 15 years if
    properly maintained to keep the moisture out(read frequent painting).
    Once the moisture gets in, usually through the unpainted back side, the
    masonite starts to delaminate and decompose. It will start to tear, 
    buckle, and bubble on the front surface. At this point it will be very 
    attractive to carpenter ants. Almost all of the houses on my street
    have been resided with cedar or vinyl. The north and south sides seem
    to wear the fastest. I resided mine with cedar at 16 years although it 
    should have been at about 12 years because it had not been maintained 
    before I bought it.
    

    
    ..DITO...  	Thats what was on my house.  When I opened up the walls
    I found several ant nests.  The Masonite was starting to swell
    from moisture and decompose.  Under that was another sheet of a
    black type fiber used for insulation.  Needless to say I took it
    down to the studs.  Myself, I tend to stay away from it.
    
    I'd go vinyl before Masonite.
    
    JD
    

    
    
    I have it on my new house.  I have only had the house 9 months, so
    I am not a good reference for long term performance.  However, I 
    disagree with the previous notes.  Cedar must be painted as often
    if not more often than masonite to keep its color and protection.  
    Vinyl is more durable, but make sure you get someone to install it 
    correctly  or it will buckle.  Besides I hate the look of vinyl.
    
    Cedar is much more costly than masonite and if you take care of 
    masonite it should not be a problem.  My fathers apartment building 
    has had maasonite for 20+ years (Painted twice) with no problems.
    
    Just my $ 0.02...              
    
     

    
    Rep:3
    
    ....most things will last some time if proper care is used....
    FYI, the house was close to 20years old.  I guess it lasted
    good considering the original owner didnt do a thing to it...
    I like Cedar myself, but DYI some times has a drawback on time so
    I went with 5/8 T1-11 and stained it....
    
    JD

	Well, thanks for the information. I'm still not sure what I'm going
	to do but it gives me alot of useful experience.


	
			Thanks,

				Chris

    A horror story with a slightly different twist.....
    
    About 12 years ago, my Sister had a new home built; they used Masonite
    clapboard siding.  It was new and touted as an inexpensive, but good
    quality alternative to pine or cedar clapboards. Since her husband was
    "in the trades", the resulting house was very well built; his father is
    a contractor and they knew the builder to be a concientious person. 
    Her husband also is a stickler for keeping trim and siding well
    protected with paint and caulking.
    
    A slight, but important, tangent.....  
    
    	Their boys developed allergies that seemed to get worse as they 
    	grew older. Visits (many $$$) to allergists confirmed that mold was 
    	the villian. The recommended fix, assuming they did not want to move 
    	to a desert climate, was to spray the walls and carpets with a 
    	"de-molder" (more $$$).  The boys always felt better after each
    	time the house was treated, but it did not last long.
    
    A few years ago, her husband noticed that one of the clapboards seemed
    to be cracking along a grain.  Since Masonite is essentially pressed
    paper, it does not lend itself to cracking in ways that look like
    grains. So, he pulled that one piece off.  What he found was that the
    BACK side of the Masonite was "mush".  So he kept pulling off
    clapboards and finding that the back sides of them were all mush.  Keep
    in mind that, from the outside, these clapboards looked virtually new. 
    He wound up taking all of the clapboards off the one side of the house
    that is in shade 100% of the time.  
    
    Parenthetically, they insisted on putting CDX plywood instead of
    particle board on the house before applying the clapboards.  If
    particle board had been under the rotted clapboards, it would also have
    been "mush".  Not surprisingly, the underlying plywood was coated with
    mold. And, as you probably have guessed by now, that side of the house
    is where the boys' bedrooms are.
    
    They tried various methods of killing the mold. Bleach did about the
    best, but not complete.  It took over 2 years of exposure (rain, light,
    air, whatever) after bleaching to kill off all the mold.  Also not
    surprisingly, the boys' allergies improved after the bleaching and
    continued to diminish throughout the two years that the plywood siding
    was exposed to the elements.
    
    They now have pine clapboards.
    
    Just a first hand, true story.  You'll have to come to your own
    conclusions about Masonite siding.
    
    As always, FWIW
    Dave

    re .0 you didn't mention if the house was built yet or not.  so...
    
    We had the choice of Masonite, Cedar, or some relatively new material,
    made by Luisianna Pacific.  This new stuff looks like the chip board
    that is used for siding, only it's wrapped in fibreglass and primed at
    the factory.  It is also given a finish that appears to look like
    Cedar, only doesn't have the unevenness of cedar.  It is also more
    rigid and only requires blind nailing.  
    
    This stuff is great.  I can get more information about it if anyone is
    interested, I kept one of the installation sheets when it was
    delivered.
    
    						.dave.
    

I want to reside a house with new white cedar shakes. It already has an old 
single layer of painted cedar shakes on it but these are worn and several 
recent renovations have left several patched areas where doors and windows
used to be.   

Is it necessary to remove the layer of old singles or can I lay a new layer
over them?????? If I can layer over, is there a best way of doing this????

thanks for the help. 

 >>>  is there a best way of doing this????

	    Perhaps the first place you could look is in the (really 
	convenient) directory this conference uses.  Type DIR 1111.*
	to view it.
					Tim

    
    Back a few years a siding contractor from the springfield area
    did a few houses in my old neighborhood.  The houses were low
    cost ones put up during the Korean conflict. Mine had cedar
    shakes.  
    
    Anyway, this guy came in and we listened to his song'n dance
    routine and got a price to cover the shakes.  After he'd
    left, I called a bldg contractor friend, told him the story
    and he said "Hell, that's no bargain, I can do that for you."
    The asked, "What kind of siding do you have now?"  Told him
    and his reply was: "You want to cover up CEDAR?" That's outlast
    the rest of the house! Have the old paint "high pressure" vapor
    blasted off and re-paint or stain it."
    
    There wasn't but maybe 3 coats of paint on it anyway, so we
    elected to paint it one more time and sold the place a year later.
    
    But that's what "A friend" in the business, said.
    
    Fred
    

	In trying to reduce the price of building a house, the builder has
	suggested using pine clapboards instead of cedar. He showed me
	some sample pieces, and showed me that each board was made up of
	many short (10 inches or so) pieces of finger jointed pine.
	He claims that because of this, the pine will not tend to "cup" 
	as it would with just one long piece. I guess the theory is that
	the direction of the grain can change every 10".

	Has enyone used this product ??

	Is it new to the market, or has it been around long ??

	Does it hold up as well as cedar...or at least better than
	regular pine or hemlock ??

	I'd hate to save money now, and re-side in 5 years.

	Thanks, Ken Gagnon

    Re: .5
    
    I would use cedar...period. Penny wise/pound foolish is approriate
    here.
    
    With the cost of labor high, why fool around?
    
    By the way, good quality cedar does not cup.
    
    Marc H.

    Need some quick advice:
    
    Live in Atlanta, GA area...my brother is painting his house.  It has
    wood siding (clapboards or whatever).
    
    Someone told him to caulk under all the clapboards if the builder
    didn't do it when the house was built.  I don't know if this is for
    insulation or termite infestation prevention.  He is about half way
    done and someone else told him No don't do that!  Something with
    the house and breathing and humidity.
    
    Do any of you know anything about caulking between the wood siding of
    your house?  Is it done or not and why?
    
    Thanks!
    
    --Gina
    

Don't do that!  This will greatly accellerate the rotting of the siding and
perhaps even the sheathing and other structural members.  If the clapboards
are installed properly, they will be weathertight.

Caulking around doors and windows is a good idea.

				Steve

     Yes Gina, there is no way that the clapboards should be caulked
    underneath. It is imperative that any water vapor that finds its way out
    that far from inside the house be able to escape. If not, you'll have
    terrible paint peeling problems or at worst, wood damage. The
    clapboards will keep the water out of your house just fine the way 
    they were installed. Remember, the ONLY vapor barrier that you should
    have should be as close to the inside of the house as possible. Any
    vapor that makes it inside the wall *needs* to be able to get out!
    
    				Kenny

    RE: .1
    
    Agreed...this makes *NO* sense at all. Remove the caulk or you will
    have future problems.
    
    Marc H.

re: .0

How many "Don't do it"s would you like?

-Jack

    I suspect somebody may have been suggesting, "caulk under the BOTTOM
    clapboard, at the top of the foundation" and it got misunderstood
    somewhere along the line as "caulk under all the clapboards."
    
    As said before...how many "NO!" responses do you want?

    
    Since the title of the base note really reflects my concern, I will
    enter this inquiry here.
    
    I am in need of 'applying some finish' to our red cedar clapboards
    now that they have been on the house about 1 1/2 years.  I am hearing
    that linseed oil [semi-transparent] stains often have problems with
    mildew.  As much as I would like to keep the color as close to natural
    as possible, I see my plans fading from CWF to Semi-Transparent, to 
    Semi-Solid to..well, you see where we're headed.  Should I go with a 
    Latex Solid stain right off the bat?
    
    I figure the folks who stained a few years back might have some
    thoughts.  Any ideas appreciated.
    
    						Steve

    I've seen this question asked in advice columns from time to time
    (always with the same "No!" response), so it does seem to be an
    idea that pops up with some frequency.
    
    					Steve

    
    What do you wish to obtain after the stain is applied?
    
    Fred

    	I painter I knew said he preferred oil finishes over latex ones. He
    said they typically went on easier and lasted longer. In this
    particular case he was talking about paint though, so I don't know if
    the same applies to stain.
    
    	One thing I do know, once you go with latex you cannot go back to
    oil (i.e. cannot cover latex with oil). You can however cover an oil
    finish with latex.
    
    	Ray

    Thank you all for the resounding NO!
    
    I will pass the info on to my brother, he'll be bummed.  This makes
    sense, and I think that one of the responses was correct in thinking
    that "Caulk the BOTTOM board only" got translated to something else.
    My brother says he was going on the advice he got from HOME DEPOT. 
    Hmmmm wonder if they needed to move their inventory of caulk that day
    or something.
    
    Thanks again!
    
    --Gina
    

    
    I guess what I am looking for is: 1) Retain the color as best I can 
    2) Have it still look like wood (which I guess means, let some degree
    of grain (along with imperfections and color variations) sho through.
    
    BUT, I do not want to [temporarily] achieve this at the expense of
    having to steam-clean mildew and restain/paint in 2 or 3 years.

    
      I always have to laugh at 'advice' given out in places like lumber
    stores, hardware stores, auto parts stores, etc. Of course these people
    are NOT trained in applying the profession they are selling items for.
    So you have to figure that asking them *what* to do is no better than
    asking anybody else. Now, if you want to ask them *about* what they are
    selling, that may be different. (one would assume at least *some*
    knowledge about the product they sell - but again, not necessarily)
    
    				Kenny

    .10 is right about what can go over what. However, if you use latex
    *anything* over red cedar, the red oils in the cedar wood *will* bleed
    through the latex. This is not a problem with oil.
    
      With stains, you definitely want an oil based one. Thompsons or
    Olympic are both good, but there are many others. Almost all paints and
    stains of ANY quality have anti-mildew additives in them and it will
    say so right on the can. There is little or no difference in the
    inherent ability of oil or latex based paints or stains to resist
    mildew.
    
      So my suggestion is to go with an oil based stain in semi transparent
    unles you wish to change the color drastically (Especially to a much
    lighter shade than the wood is now). Most of the oil based stains out
    now can be cleaned with soap and water until they dry. (They have a water
    emulsifier in them)
    
    				Kenny

I've used Pratt & Lambert semi-transparent stains and never had any
mildew problems ... It mentions that it contains fungicides for mildew
resistance.

As to the latex over oil / oil over latex ... as I understand it, with
modern paints and stains, as long as you've done good surface prep, it
hardly matters any more.

Stuart

    
    ... which actually isn't the "usual" case for Home Depot. They
    employ many professionals per store and provide frequent training
    for professionals and non-professionals.
    
    ... which is one of the reasons they have a habit of putting places
    like HQ and Builder's Square out of business.
    
    							

Even the caulking the bottom clapboard is incorrect ... that will guarantee
a rotten lower clapboard.  You've got to caulk the wall to foundation joint
which may be under or concealed by the bottom clapboard.  It is common
to caulk that joint on the INSIDE.

Stuart

    
    
    rep:-
             "good surface prep, it harly matters any more."
    Wellllll......  I'd like to say yes....but I'd hate to find out
    you've done the entire house and next year find it pealing because
    the "prep", wasnt correct....:)
    
    I used Thompson's on my T1-11 and havnt see any problems.  A slight
    discoloration where the water has been hitting, but no mold.  Even on
    the North side where its damp..   Next year i'll give it a quick shot
    of clear.
    
    JD

    Our house is cedar clapboards.  The trim is spruce.  All was "painted"
    with oil-based stain (Cabot's).
    
    We have a slight bit of mildew where the water splashes up from the
    deck.  The rest of the house is above grade, so we get no splashing
    there at all.  The mildew is barely noticable, and only on the white
    stain.  Since the rest of the house is stained with grey, we wouldn't
    see it anyway!
    
    Chet

  You can also buy a mildewcide additive at most paint/hardware stores.  You
just add this little bottle to a gallon of paint/stain (about $2.50 a bottle)
and mix it in.  I used it on my house this summer when I repainted with 
California Storm stain (oil based). 

Re: .16

That's a waste of money, in most cases, as paints and stains have 
mildewicide added by the manufacturer.

				Steve

>>That's a waste of money, in most cases, as paints and stains have 
>>mildewicide added by the manufacturer.


  In most cases, but not mine.  My house had a pretty bad case of mildew on
the north and west (heavily shaded) sides.  I used a stuff called Jomax to
clean the house (what a difference that made!!) and then stained with the
addition of the mildewcide.  

  I'll let you know how well it works/worked....next year!  :^)

Mildewcide can't prevent growth of mildew in an extremely wet area.  If your
house is shaded by tall trees, if plants and shrubs are too close to the house,
or if you have an internal moisture problem in the house, there isn't much you
can do to prevent mildew from re-appearing, even with the use of added
mildewcide.  (Don't ask me how I know this).

Some problems can be fixed by thinning tall trees, moving plantings away from
the siding.

If you are in a really damp area, you might want to look into the high quality
wood finishes developed for log homes (LANDO::LOG_HOMES).  As was mentioned
elsewhere in this conference, they are expensive, but they will protect your
home.

Elaine

  Thanks for the input.  I don't have any trees or shrubs next to the house,
the closest is about 15 feet away.  I do however live next to a swamp!  Gee...
do you think *that* could cause some dampness??  :^)

  I'll wait and see how well this stuff works, and if it doesn't...well, then
I'll look into the $$$ alternatives!

    
    Has anyone had experience with a wood product clapboard siding made by
    Georgia Pacific?  Its been out for about 2 years and is  called LP
    inner seal lap siding.   Its made from wood chips and an epoxy resin, is
    pre-primed and it has a 25 year warranty.  
    
    The builder states that red cedar is a thing of the past and this is
    the greatest thing since ....
    
    
    
    
    

    Old school of thought......
    
    		wood and glue left out in the rain melts....
    
    ....and for 25yrs???
    
    

    
    Quoting the "Lindal Cedar Homes" catalog, there are cedar structures
    still standing after 1000 years.  If I think of it tonite, I'll
    get the exact quote.
    
    Fred
    
    

    
    The Cedar yes...but the glue I dont know.........
    
    JD

What would be the point of installing a manmade product warranted for 25 years
when you could use a natural wood product with a lifetime which is virtually
immeasureable?

-Jack

    
    The main reason is $$$$ but I don't want to put garbage on the side my
    new house that's why I'm asking here.  I did some more checking and its
    basically pine chips that are epoxied together.  When you give it more
    thought, why would anyone do this, plain pine clapboards would be
    better and would probably be about the same price?
    
    We're checking with the builder to get the price differential on the 
    red cedar clear/smooth clapboard.  And, we'll eliminate some extras if
    we have to inorder to get the cedar.
    
    I checked at Sommerville lumber and they quoted $.50/foot and they give
    you the option of pre-priming for an extra charge.  I'm checking the
    price to keep the builder honest.  Anyone have coverage numbers for
    figuring approximate linear feet of clapboard per sq foot house side?
    
Thanks

    I guess it can depend if you don't plan to live there for more than a
    few years - it could be a big initial cost saver.  The warranty is only
    any good if it covers both replacement *and* reinstallation.  

    As a big part of the cost of siding is installation, a longer-lasting
    product would save you a lot of money if you plan to live there the
    rest of your life.  Like the previous notes say, well-maintained cedar
    can last for a long time. 

    If you decide to save the money, what you may want to do is check
    whether this product has a Forest Products Laboratory certification. 
    They test the products under extreme conditions that would accelerate
    normal deterioration. This would include things like UV light
    deterioration, which is one of the big problems with resin-based
    products.

    Another thing to look into is how well this product "breathes".  I've
    read that for some manufactured siding, vapor doesn't travel
    out of the wall easily and can reduce the efficiency of the insulation.
    The FHA publishes some information about the properties of various
    manufactured systems.
    
    Colin
    

Twenty years ago, Epoxy Glue Partical/Chip Board under Masonite clapboards was
touted as the way to go; low price, etc, etc.  Against the advice of his
father_the_contractor, my brother-in-law had that combination installed on his
new house, primarily to save money.  Over the years, water had swollen the
masonite and broken down the glue binding together the chips in the partical
board. The resulting mold was so severe that the family was suffering from
severe allergy reactions whenever anyone slept in the rooms at the side of the
house. After 15 years, one side (perpetually shady side) of the house had to
have all clapboard and partical boards removed; cut down trees so sunlight
could get in and help kill all of the mold (bleach, etc, was not enough).  It
just was not worth it. 

From a first hand perspective, I used the epoxy chip board as a raised floor (
not in contact with the ground) a lawn shed.  About 5 years later, it was 
rotting from underneath.

I would not use partical/chip board nor Masonite.

But then, Just My Opinion..... 

Dave

    I'll be using red cedar clapboard on my new house.  Sommerville lumber
    quoted me a price of $.50/linear foot for 6" clear red cedar.  They
    also suggested pre-installation priming option that they have
    available.  My plan is to go this route with hot dipped galvanized nails 
    and save on the staining by doing it myself next spring.  
    
    Any problems going this route?
    
    

    re .32
    
    You may want to consider stainless steel nails if you're using 
    a non-solid stain.  The galvanized nails will eventually bleed 
    black.
    
    Ken

            Save yourself some grief and install with stainless ring-shank 
    nails, they're expensive ($4-5 lb.) but will never rust.  This is a must 
    on a clear finish, not so sure if you go with a solid color. Anyone else 
    have experience with nail rust on solid color stains. I'd guess it would
    depend on the quality of the stain and the coverage. 

    	Galvanized nails have good holding power but you damage the finish
    banging them in and rust is inevitable when they're exposed to the
    elements. Stainless is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

    
    /Jim
     

>>I would not use partical/chip board nor Masonite.

A LOT of the new houses around here (Nashua/Merrimack NH) are using the Masonite
siding.  My house has it and I can see several places where it appears water
has already swelled the edges.  I can also see mold on a few damp areas.

This spring I will be doing a more extensive exam of these areas and see what
is going on.  The house is three years old.

I questions the builder (Ashwood Homes) on the use of this and they came back
with "oh its much better than the cedar siding you get these days".  I recall
asking "how much more for real wood siding?" and being very surprized when they
told me (don't recall the number though).  

bjm

    re: .5
    
    You will need at least 3 linear feet of ceder for each square foot of
    coverage.  This leaves the usual 4" exposure.  Depending upon the
    amount of total square footage you need, and whether you want the
    "rustic A" look, you shoul dbe able to get ceder between $.41 and $.45
    per linear foot.
    
    Dan

My 3.5 year old house with masonite siding is also showing signs of
swelling on the edges.  It's only on the back of the house where it
gets the lease amount of sun.  I did have some ice dam problems this
year and some water did get behind the siding.  I wish I went with
cedar.

Home Depot is selling pre-primed cedar for $.59 a linear foot.  I figured
it would cost about $1000 for 1 side of my house (34' long, 2 stories ).

Garry

    I though Masonite was a different material to the woodchip/epoxy
    material mentioned in .0? 

    re: .11
    
    Masonite is not the same as the composite material originally
    mentioned.  Masonite is essentially pressed paper and has very little
    adhesive content.
    
    Dan

Home depot has primed cedar for .59 l/f but also has unprimed in bundles
	8' bundel of ten = $36.00
	12'bundle of ten = 54.00 
that equals about .45 l/f (they also have other lengths)

I am in a similar situation. I have a 19 year old home that has pressboard 
siding (essentially it is glorified particle board).  The back of the house 
that gets all the sun is peeling everywhere and needs a complete overhall. 
On the left side of the house, almost every board is swollen so bad you can 
see the waves.  Front is actually in very good shape.  Given the 
composition of this stuff I'm surprised it lasted this long.  The blue jays 
even love it...they peck the hell out of it.

Every house on our block had it and I think I'm the last to consider 
getting rid of it.  We bought the house last year, it was built in '75.

If it is taken care of (ends sealed with water seal, board fully primed,
the proper sheathing, etc) I'm told it will last about 20 years...which is 
about right considering our neighbors experience.  I would have said that 
if you were not planning to stay in the house you might get away with it 
but after hearing the last few noters complain of problems after 2-3 years, 
I'd be wary.  However it might not be the same stuff. 

My problem is that I will be in the house at most 5-7 years which is about 
the limit 3 different painters told me the current siding might last with a 
lot of repair/prep work and 2 coats of paint.

My question is...would you bite the bullet and do 
	1 - full cedar replacement (which we really can't afford), 
	2 - replace the bad sides with the same stuff and paint, or 
	3 - replace the bad sides with cedar and paint full

I'm consider 3 for now, with the only problem with mixing the cedar with 
current is the exposure would be different, current is 5" and I'm told 4" 
is max on cedar.  Any thoughts?

Also, if anyone would like to trade off on a do-it-yourself job let me 
know. 

-Greg 

    Use the real thing, it will be cheaper in the long run.  I am in the 
    market for a house now and would facter in replacing all the siding
    on a house before making an offer, if I knew it had pressed, compressed
    glued whatever for siding.  I have several houses on Cape Cod (a damp
    climit) 2 of them are over 100 yr. old and the real wood is still holding
    up.  My brother has one with partical board 5 years old and everything
    is swelling.  Dampness and the elements are relentless in their attack
    on wood, that is why glues finally break down.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    paul

    re: .13
    
    You can (or could) get cedar siding in wider widths that would allow
    5" to the weather.  Of course, the wider stuff may cost more....

You can do this, but make sure the sealer you use allows a finish on top of
it.  Standard "Thompson's Water Seal" doesn't.  I was at Home Depot this
morning looking at various clear sealer products and noted that Behr's
clear sealer specifically noted that it could be used to treat wood prior to
staining or painting and that it would aid adhesion.  It waterproofs plus
resists fungus, rot and termites.  Cuprinol and Olympic's products did not
appear to allow for paint/stain over and did not have the fungus or insect
preventative qualities.  I didn't spot a Thompson's product to see what they
claimed.

					Steve

    re -.1  I agree, Behr's is a good product.  Instead of wasting time
    painting the sealer, put it in a bucket large enough that you can dip
    the shingles then flip them into a pile to air dry.  Goes fast and
    works great.

re .2:

He's using clapboards, not shingles.

    re: -.1 & -.2  Sorry read fast and make mistakes.
    
    

Behr recommends dipping if possible (you could have a large trough, I
suppose) or "flood spraying" which is probably more practical.  Be sure to
get the ends and edges as well.

				Steve

    
    Depends on the length of the siding, but you can make a temporary
    trough out of a couple of lengths of timber G-clamped across two
    sawhorses. 
    
    Use a thick plastic sheet as the trough, stapled to the timbers
    (Make sure the sheet rests on the ground).   You can either pour in the
    preservative or spray with a deck spray.
    

You might also be able to use plastic gutter, though it may be a little small
(i.e. you'll have to turn the clapboard it to get the whole thing).

    I would just use an oil primer and paint with a good quality latex. We
    did an old house with pine boards and it still looks good.
    Mike

Be sure to thoroughly wet all sides and edges of the siding.  You may find it
best to lay out a big plastic sheet, lay the boards on that, and spray several
at a time, then flip them over and spray the other side.  Wear skin and
eye protection (and, ideally, breathing protection) while you're doing this.

I'll be using the Behr sealer on a new cedar fence I'm having installed.  I'll
soak the caps in it too.

					Steve

    Typically I think you'd do 4" exposure with 6" siding.
    
    I'm not sure you need anything under the first course of siding.
    I guess you could use a strip of 1/4" plywood or so, if you
    want.
    
    Your description of corners sounds okay to me.  I might choose to
    use slightly wider boards (1x5 and 1x6) but that's just personal
    perference and what look you want.
    
    Joints in the clapboards: doing a bevel joint with as much taper and
    you can manage would definitely be the elegant way to do it.  
    
    For the sides of dormers, you'll want to leave a bit of space (1/2"?)
    between the ends of the clapboards and the shingles.  Step flashing for
    the shingles has to go up under the clapboards.  I'm not sure how 
    it's "supposed" to be done, but I'd be inclined to be sure I didn't
    nail through the clapboards within, say, 4" of the roof so there would
    be no problem inserting and removing flashing from under the edge of
    the clapboards.  I might even leave 1" space between the ends of the
    clapboards and the roof to give more working room for inserting and/or
    removing the step flashing at (re)roofing time.  
    
    For inside corners, get a square piece of 5/4 stock (i.e. a true 1"
    square), put it in the corner, and butt the clapboards up to it from 
    both sides.  I think 3/4" square would prove to be a little small, but
    you could try it and see.  For both inside and outside corners, put
    some 15# felt paper around the corners so it's under the
    cornerboard-to-clapboard joints, in case a little water gets
    through.
    
    Before you begin, lay out the whole wall from top to bottom, find
    where the clapboard edges will come relative to the tops and bottoms 
    of windows and doors, and fudge the clapboard spacing so you don't
    end up with inconvenient little strips, e.g. try to arrange it
    so you can put a full clapboard right across the tops of the windows,
    for instance, without notching.  It will be easier, and look better.

    Does anyone know something about using rough cut shiplap outdoors?
    I want to use it to make my pool deck a little more private.
    It's a lot cheaper then pressure treated if you buy it from a mill.
    
                              Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,Vic

As it's rough cut, I'd use a good penetrating sealer on it first, and then
whatever you want for a final finish - paint, stain, whatever. You're going
to have to treat it somehow to weatherproof it and protect it from mold
and insects. While the above should do it, I wouldn't be adverse to giving
it a good treatment with Cuprinol or the like to start with.

The main thing is to use something very thin and penetrating at first so you
make sure you get all the exposed wood of the rough surface saturated with the
base product.

-Jack

    
    pretreating before installing is advised.....
    
    You might consider putting a cap on the fence or wall you build also..
    
    JD

    
    Cedar vs. Pine = ?$$$?
    
    When re-clapboarding a house, what  is best to use, pine or
    cedar??  It will be painted, so I'm thinking since pine is
    cheaper, that's the better route to go.  Actually, we're not
    doing the whole house just some sections.
    
    ??
    
    Thanks,
    Deb
    
    

	Whats on the house now? 

	If you re-side spend the money for the cedar you won't be sorry. I went
the cheapo pine route 12 years ago when I built my house. I have hated that pine
siding ever since the second year. (I even knew better but figured I didn't have
room in the budget) It's terrible stuff. Cedar is much more stable and is much
more resistant to the weather.

If you're patching, I suggest using the same material as the existing. If you
are going to do a whole side go with cedar or whatever.

Have fun!

Paul

Cedar is better.  Properly maintained, it will last "forever".  It also
looks nicer, even painted.

				Steve

    
    
    We are going to paint.  The house is old, and has probably been
    'patched' here and there over the years, but I don't know what was
    used before.
    
    I guess I'll have to compare the costs.  I saw bundles (10 per bundle)
    at HD that were 6" x 6' for $27.00, that's roughly .45 cents per foot.
    
    Hmmmm.  I didn't check pine.
    
    

    
    keep in mind that there are different grades of ceader too.........
    
    

    Having owned both I vote CEDAR.  Pine warps, splits, the knots tend to
    ozze forever, yuk.  Cedar is more uniform and has a better finish.
    
    Loren

    Whichever one you choose, be sure to paint BOTH sides.  It protects
    the wood from "cuping" if moisture gets underneath.
    
    Chip

Pick up a cheap plastic gutter (2 if you're using clapboards over 10' long) 
and a couple of end caps.

They make great clapboard dipping trays.  I did my whole house with 3" to 
the weather cedar clapboards that I'd stained that way.  (also had enough 
to do the garage)  I went through 20 gallons of stain if that gives you an 
idea of how many clapboards I did.

I made a drying rack out of 4 2X4s laying against a wall.  Every 1" there 
was a finish nail for the clapboards to rest on.

Lay the clapboards face up on the nails to dry.

I was staining up to 20' clapboards that way.

    I recently went through the painful process of house hunting.  The
    pine siding on the houses we saw had cupped, warped, and checked after 
    10 years.  The houses that had clear vertical grain cedar still looked 
    fine.
    
    There are some acceptions to the rule, though.  One house had pine
    siding that was still in good shape, but it was obvious the owners had
    done quite a bit of work to keep it that way.  Another house with CVG
    cedar was having some problems, though it was obvious the owners had
    neglected it.
    
    My 2 cents from my relatively small experience with the stuff,
    
    Will

    Can anyone explain the concept of why putting the cedar "rough side up"
    is better? I ask because this seems related, and I always wondered why
    builders think that's better. 

    Kevin 

	I need to re-stain my house.  It has a solid color stain on it now that
is peeling.  We just bought this house and when the inspector was going over it
(Paul Cornell) he mentioned that instead of scraping I could use a pressure wash
to remove the loose paint.  Has anyone else done this?  Does it work for paint
removal rather than just cleaning?  I believe that it will blow off the loose
paint but what I'm concerned about is what the surface will look like
afterwards.  Will the pressure wash also wear down the edges of the paint so
that I'm not left with ridges between the peeled and unpeeled areas?

Thanks, 

George

Pressure washing works great.  I highly recommend it, especially before
re-staining.  If you are worried, try it on a small area and decide whether
or not to continue.

-steve-

    Oh, peeling exterior stain, what a pain. I know all about it.
    
    You need to scrape, and scrape thoroughly.  If you just power
    wash, you are going to be doing it again next year, and the 
    year after, and the year after.  You need to get every bit
    of loose or slighly loose stain off.  Then wash & prime &
    restain. 
    
    Margaret.

ah....anyone want to break the tie? :-)

    The scraping doesn't remove the necessity to do wash - although if
    you scrape a powerwash is overkill.  My experience is that a 
    powerwash isn't sufficient if there is a peeling problem.
    

Don't know if this is a dumb question but it makes sense to me - then again it's
Friday.

	The clapboards that I need to scape and restain are nailed with the
rough side out.  It seems that scraping the clapboards could cause the scrapped
areas to be smoother than the non-scrapped areas.  The rough vs. smooth
difference would telegraph through the stain (a solid stain) and look pretty
terrible.  Anyone have experience with this?  Is it a "problem"?

George

hi,

i need to paint my house again.  it is sided with shakes.  the problem
is, some of the shakes have blistered leaving areas where there is
paint on part of the shake and not on the rest.  i imagine that painting
the shake would leave an outline of where the stripped paint was.
with regular shingles i understand the proper method of avoiding such
a seam would be to sand the paint edge down so as not to be noticeable.
i don't think that's feasible with shakes.  can anyone recommend an
alternate solution?  perhaps a wirebrush along the grooves?  hmmmmm.

thanks for any thoughts

	I am looking at a ranch house, about 24 x 38, single story, which
	has cedar shingles on its walls, but they have been painted.

	Does anyone have an update on using sand, walnut shells, or whatever
	to clean them down to bare wood, so we can stain them.

	I have a lot of windows (17) all around the ranch, so the SF to be done 
	is fairly small.

	Any leads or experiences are appreciated.



	Bob

	    I'd opt for new shingles.  It doesn't take too much work or time
	to strip the old ones.  Just peel them off with a pitch fork.  You 
	can do just one wall at a time.  Snap a line to keep them straight.
	I found a table saw can be a big help.

					Tim

    I just finished painting the front of my cedar sided house and I am
    having some second thoughs on my prep work. I'm going to knock off
    till the fall due to heat/humity but before I paint the rest...
    
    The is the first painting since the builder sprayed or should I say
    lightly dusted with an acrylic latex paint on outside of boards only.
    It's very rough cedar about 5 years old. It's installed horizontally 
    and butts into vertical pine trim on edges of house and by doors/
    windows. Lots of horizontal splits, splits from nail holes, and knot 
    hole pops-no warping or buckling to speak of. Many rotted trim pieces. 
    Caulk is found only around windows doors.
    
    My approach:
    Replace any rotted trim.
    Tap each board down and set nails or replace nails which missed studs.
    Apply acrylic latex caulk to splits, nail holes, where siding
    	meets trim (I assume this is the cause of the trim rot), and
    	where 2 pieces of siding butt. Re-caulk as needed around windows. 
    Brush on 2 coats of acrylic latex paint (same color/brand as builder)
    
    I'm wondering if caulk applied to the splits and nail set holes in 
    cedar is going to come back to bite me later. The builder used 
    caulk on some splits when the house was new and it seems to have 
    held up OK.
    
    Boy have I gone through some caulk. I'm thinking of posting a sign
    on the local highway advertising "Come see the amazing house of
    caulk ...5miles (ala Dave Barry's amazing house of spackle")
    
    I'm in Maryland so there's not too much local experience. Can one
    of you hardy New Englander's help (with advise not painting that is)?
    

    I was self employed for 6 years and wood siding is all I did. As far as
    caulking goes,I used it occassionally. I prefered latex caulk that had
    some silicone in it(all silicone cant be painted). Anyway, you should
    be fine and definately much better than if you didnt use anything at
    all.However, I would recommend you paint your house every 2-3 years
    because the caulk will crack,dry,and fall out. Besides that when the
    paint begins to fade the caulking will be mor noticeable.
    
                         Sylvain

I have a question on what exterior is best for a house.  We are about to
build a new home and the contractor asked us what type of exterior we 
wanted.  Or last house had cedar clapboards, but they of course need 
painting every four or five years.  I thought that vinyl siding would 
be best from a maintenance point of view, but it doesn't feel very
traditional and my wife wants a "traditional colonial" looking house.

A third option, which I've had no experience with, is staining.  Is
staining less work than painting?

I'd welcome your opinions on which type of exterior siding you would put on
a new home.  The home by the way is being built in Salem, NH.

Regards,

Bill Jeeves
DTN 276-9400
STOWOA::JEEVES

It depends on the style of the house.  What looks good on a Cape would look
awful on a Contemporary, and vice versa.

If you're willing to spend a bit up front, you can get a vinyl siding which
looks almost exactly like cedar shakes or clapboards.  The product I've
looked most closely at is made by Certainteed.  It's much more expensive than
standard "plastic wrap" (my term for vinyl siding), but once its up it's
essentially maintenance-free and it looks very good.  It comes in a variety
of styles and colors.

Staining is less work than painting in that you don't have to worry about
scraping and sanding, as long as you're using a transparent or semi-transparent
stain.  But you'll be applying it more often than paint (a good paint job should
last more than 4-5 years).

				Steve

See note 1028 (especially 1028.1) for a no-maintenance no-vinyl solution.

    
    Bill,
       
       I just built a colonial with cedar clapboard siding.  After
    extensive research, we decided to use an oil base stain.  We used
    a solid linseed oill based stain with one coat on the interior(smooth
    side in) and two coats on the exterior.  Siding was cedar Aye and
    better.  Also made a decision to purchase the clapboards already
    stained with the color and manufacturer of your choice. Cost was
    approx. eight hundred dollars, but worth the quality of the job
    Additionally, make sure that your contractor uses stainless steel nails
    on the exterior, as galvanized will eventually rust and bleed through,
    even if they are dipped in stain.
    
                  Charlie

    
    I just had a colonial built with vinyl siding and it looks very
    traditional, is virtually maintenance free (I spray it with the hose
    when dirty), and looks great.
    
    Dennis
    

The best type of caulk for an exterior application is
polyurethane caulk. This caulk is completely paintable
(unlike 100% silicone) and will not dry and crack as
it ages (unlike latex). This type is recommended by
house restoration experts (Old House Journal) and the
Society for the Preservation of New England Antiquities,
SPNEA.

The negatives are convenience and cost. Polyurethane caulk
is almost completely unavailable at retail outlets. 
(Exception, Hammer Hardware in Nashua but at a ripoff price.)
So you have to buy it from a wholesale distributor.
I buy Precora's Dynatrol 1 from Sterling Insulation in Waltham
for about $3 per tube. (Not everyone sells individual
tubes.)

I found the caulk to be harder to apply than latex. It's
much more viscous out of the tube.  Polyurethane caulk
requires 3-5 days to cure before painting. It also has
a short shelf life. You should use a tube within 6 months
of purchase.


robert

    
    Thanks for all the advice.  The type of house we are building is a
    colonial.  I'm leaning towards a "good" vinyl or stain.
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Bill

We also couldn't stand the idea of putting vinyl on a house but since it 
provided a most cost effect solution vs cedar we spent a lot of time trying 
to find the most natural looking type.  Steve is correct...we found 
Certainteed to be very good as well as Wolverine.  We looked for a good 
"flat" look rather than the "wood grain" which in almost all situtations 
looks fake (to us).  Certainteed had the best grain and color intensity and 
Wolverine the best flat look.  

Although both are high quality I disagree they cost all that much more.  Of 
the five estimates we got on our house, only the (2) contractors who didn't 
do any significant work in those brands gave a higher price for them...and 
it was only a couple hundred.  A good contractor that uses any good brand 
on a regular basis can match price if pushed. Of course any decent brand 
WILL cost more than GP or other lower-end junk.

BTW, after all this effort we decided we couldn't afford new siding now and 
will repair and paint the current masonite siding we have until such time 
that we win the lottery or Digital lifts the salary freeze.

-G

    I goofed - the product I was thinking of is by Nailite; Certainteed
    has a similar product called "Cedar Impressions".  Unlike standard
    vinyl siding, these attempt to mimic the appearance of actual cedar
    shakes or clapboards.  Both of these lines are injection molded;
    Certainteed says theirs are based on molds made from actual cedar
    shakes.  Nailite has two lines; "Perfection" looks like cedar shingles,
    "Hand-Split" looks like shakes.  They are VERY convincing until you
    get right up to them.  (Nailite also has a "stone" and "brick" line.)
    
    Nailite's number is 800-328-9018.
    
    				Steve

    I plan on using red cedar clapboards on my new house.  The plan is to
    use stainless steel nails (5p 1.75" ring shank coil nails using a
    power gun) and nail so that only one clapboard is penetrated per nail.
    Solid stain with rough side exposed.  
    
    Being that I won't need the smooth side I plan on saving a few bucks by
    buying the rough grade.  Any problems with this?  Can I get it with no
    knots?
    
    Also there appear to be differing opinions on pre-priming when using a
    solid stain.  If I could I'd like to save about $.20/foot, or my own
    labor, by putting them up with no pre-staining/priming.  Anyone have a
    good experience with no pre-priming and solid staining after they are 
    up? I see lots of new houses with red cedar that has only been 
    stained post installation and the clapboards look fine with no bleeding 
    or cupping so I'd like to go this route as long as I won't get burnt.
    
    Thanks,
    Bill
                                                       

    
    
    "Pay me now or pay me later!"
    
    Builders take shortcuts in order to increase their profit  margins
    and inrich their quotes to sound cheep!   If the house falls apart
    a few years down the road.  Most builders are gone!
    
    Spend the extra and dip the claps.  They'll last longer and save
    you extra work.
    
    PS.... I think there was a vinyl product mentioned somewhere that
     	   looked like clapboard.......
    
    JD

Re: .14

>    PS.... I think there was a vinyl product mentioned somewhere that
>    	   looked like clapboard.......

Nailite is one, Certainteed has another.

				Steve

    I agree, dip em before you put it up, some of the other houses you have
    seen may look good, but in the long run it is what you do now that
    matters. Maybe the other house get restained everyother year.
    As far as the vinyl siding goes. Excellent product,looks great and has
    the cedar texture too. The cedar colored vinyl is very, very impressive 
    looking, however you can expect to pay around $20 more a square for it.
    (roughly, not sure)
    

    I just wanted to put a note in here about double nailing red cedar
    clapboards.  The installers just started putting the cedar on our new
    house yesterday.  I went to the extra expense of pre-priming and using
    stainless steel nails so I wanted to be sure that they didn't double
    nail.  
    
    When I described how I wanted them installed they looked at me like I
    had two heads.  The foreman stated that he had been installing red
    cedar for 17 years and he never heard of this and could not guarantee
    the job if done in that way.  He mentioned cupping and cracking due to 
    no support behind the nailed board.  After a lengthy discussion I 
    agreed that they would install them by double nailing.  
    
    I have to admit that I've looked at lots of new and not so new houses
    and they are all double nailed with no evidence of cracking caused by
    drying and shrinking.  Like this:  
    
                     /
                    /
                   /
                  /
           |-----/ /
    		/ /
                 /
                /
         |-----/ /
              / /
               /
              /
             /
            /
         
                             
    The packaging on the bundles clearly state "do not double nail" and the
    red cedar association literature states the same but in the real world
    they've been doing it like this forever and that's just the way it is.
    The builder contacted Larkin lumber in Hudson, Ma and they had a hard
    time believing it to the extend of calling the manufacture.  Quite an
    uproar when I stopped at Larkins at the end of the day.
    
    Just my experience,
    Bill
                       

News to me.  I've never seen any NOT double-nailed.  My house is done that
way and I've had no problems (house is 28 years old).

				Steve

    Same here, I was a self employed siding contractor for several
    years(wood only) always double nailed it. The only way I can see where
    it wouldt be considered "double nailing" is if you nailed it about 2
    inches up from the bottom in order to avoid nailing the top of the one
    underneath and then you would absolutely have "curling" siding.
    
    Sylvain

I'm siding with cedar now and I can't understand how you could not double 
nail and keep the boards from lifting or cuping.  I'm even doing a 4.5" 
exposure. (every .5" counts when you are working with cedar)

-Greg

    re .-1
    
    That's what everyone says that I've talked to but, I've seen pictures in 
    red cedar literature that shows how to nail and it states "do not double 
    nail" and the bundles say the same.  I guess it doesn't matter as every 
    installation I've seen is double nailed and they look fine.
                                                
    

Four problems I see with NOT double nailing.

1) by extending the exposed surface, the butt ends 
   offer no protection underneith, exposing the
   Tyvek to UV and the sheating to moisture.

2) The top edge of clapboard is not perfect,
   In fact, often times it has strap indents
   from the bundle straps or just splintered.

3) I agree on the cupping and spliting as a likely outcome.
   I can point to my house at a few placed I nailed too
   high.

4) Having that 2nd layer of board underneith offers
   some protection from rain wicking into the sheating
   through the nails. It does anyway as I removed some 
   of my clapboard for an addition and the sheating had stains on it.

From one who has done 50 squares of clapboard siding.

I think stanless steel nails is overkill and you'll get
a sparkle to the house until they fade (maybe). Galvonized
nails are fine. The old Brosco book has a beatifull house
with dark nails highlighted on clapboard.

Dan

    Im going to have to sisagree with you Dan on the nails. Galvanized
    nails will bleed although they are not supposed to. I speaking from
    experience and dealing with painters. If you can afford the extra
    dollars go with the stainless steel.
    
    Sylvain

I just ripped the cedar clapboards off my garage.  They've been on there 
for at least 40 years according to the lady across the street.

NONE of them were double nailed.
^^^^
****
^^^^

The nails were flush with the top edges of the lower clapboards.

I guess carpenters were a bit more particular in the old days.  FWIW, they 
were galvanized nails, too.  There wasn't any bleeding through of the nails
.  The biggest reason I re-sided the garage was to go from 4.5" to 3" so as 
to match the house (that used to have asbestos shingles over the original 
clapboards.

Come to think of it, those clapboards weren't double nailed, either.

                                           _/___
                                           / /
                                            /
                                          _/___
                                          / /
                                           /
                                         _/___
                                         / /
                                          /
                                         /
 ...and he clapboards weren't cupped anywhere, either

just a few ramblings while in the midst of doing some exterior staining
that I've not seen elsewhere:

how do you deal with downspouts? if brushing, do you poke the bristles
behind; or do you temporarily remove the downspout?

assume you are using a ladder; do you have a favorite direction to
move in (right or left? are you a righty or lefty?)?

do you paint/stain on both sides of the ladder? if so, what do you
do where the ladder leans on the house? do you do the
"ladder-two-step" 30' into the air to move the ladder shadow a few
inches? or do you just paint above where the ladder leans on the house?

Remove the downspouts if possible, otherwise remove what brackets you can and
swing it out of the way while painting.

I painted on both sides of the ladder and did as far "inside" the ladder as
I could reasonably get.  I figured I'd get that part on the next pass at a
lower elevation.  NEVER, EVER do the "ladder-two-step".  I used a ladder
stabilizer which gave me a bit more distance from the siding.

I tended to move from right to left, possibly because it was easier for me
(being right-handed) to stretch a bit more to the right to get the overlap.
But I was always mindful of the rule which says to keep your belt buckle
between the ladder rails.

					Steve

    New Question--
    
    My house is sided with masonite, which is now beginning to
    blister/buckle/etc.  I am going to rip off all the Masonite and re-side
    with cedar shingles.  
    
    Does anybody have a really good technique for ripping the masonite off? 
    The "boards" are nailed close to the edge (about .5"). and the boards
    are swollen around the nails.  We tried hammering a crow-bar up under
    the boards near the nails, but this took a while because the paint was
    so thick on the bottom edges of the boards.  We are going to try a
    sharper, thinner crow-bar.  Are there any tricks?  
    
    Thanks in advance!!!
    -Becca  

just wondering, how old is the house and was it kept up (painted once in a
while...)?

bjm

    It's 20 years old (I think).  I think it was painted once in a while,
    but I don't know for certain (I bought the house a few months back--
    knowing I'd rip down the masonite).  
    
    Last Saturday it took quite a bit of effort to rip off one board, and
    there were many black ants.  I think there were so many because the it
    was not very well caulked next to the electric meter.  There was no
    plywood damage that I could see.  
    
    I have received several recommendations to use the "wonderbar", a
    flat-sided crowbar with a sharp end.  Will see how well it works.    
                                      

                My favorite prying tool is made from a broken leaf spring. It's about
    half a spring that fell off a pickup truck Grind  it sharp on one end
    and round the corners a little.  This thing works real well without doing 
    damage to the trim or walls. It's wide 2+ inches and the built in curve 
    works well when prying.
    
    And just a friendly reminder to wear safety glasses and work gloves.

    I wonder if maybe, the built up paint layers have created a very
    effective vapor barrier and are trapping condensation and the dampness 
    has invited the ants. If this is what's happening, you should see the
    ants around walls where high moisture is produced, like bath room, wash 
    room and kitchen area.  This could be why the siding is failing as well? 
    This is something I've suspected would happen to house covered with 
    multiple heavy coats of paint, where all the seams in the siding are 
    closed. 

    Anyone got any comments,ideas or first hand experiences to share on this 
    exterior vapor barrier theory? 


    /Jim

I am in the process of a 2 year project to replace my siding (from 
hardboard) to cedar.  I used a wonderbar to get under and loosen one board 
and then use the crowbar up underneath to rip up 3-4 at a time going 
across the wall.  Works fairly well and you have to be very careful at the 
higher levels. Before I figured out this method, I just used a wonderbar 
and a 20oz hammer.  pound the curved claw up under the nail and loosen.  
Then turn the bar around and pull till the nail pops.  Repeat for each 
nail across the length of the board.

    
    We recently looked at a new development by Ashwood Homes in Nashua. The
    siding contractor was there putting siding on one shell (OSB sheathing,
    no housewrap). The material looked like it was moulded hardboard,
    pre-primed and given one topcoat.  There was no paint or primer on the
    back surface. Very dense and hard, but definitely pressed wood fibre.
    
    According to the the selling agent, the builders would make layout
    changes, pour additional deck footings, etc. and they were amenable to
    most requests.  The one thing they would not budge on was a request to
    upgrade the siding to stainless steel-nailed cedar.
    
    We have cedar siding right now, and we know that it would cost a chunk
    of change for the upgrade. Any thoughts on why they would not want to
    do a siding upgrade?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

>	Any thoughts on why they would not want to do a siding upgrade?
    
	Maybe they don't know how to do anything else.  Or maybe their
	brother in law does the siding.  Call me aracist, but I don't 
	trust builders.

					Tim    
    

	That type of siding is not uncommon and will last a long time
	if you keep it painted. Moisture is a big problem so it is not
	recommended on the north side of houses and where the house 
	doesn't get much sunlight to dry it out. I wouldn't be that 
	concerned about the housewrap but a good vapor barrier is a must. 
	
	Paul

>>    We recently looked at a new development by Ashwood Homes in Nashua. The

Ashwood Homes is the problem.  

From experence, they only like very simple changes that they can easily plan 
for and that either end up saving them money or cost no more money.   Asking
them to tell one of their contractors to go out and buy cedar and use SS nails
would do two things:

1) cost you much more than it was worth
2) most likly get you a poorly sided home (so used to putting up the masonite)

I do think you can get them to wrap the house though (if you want).  One of the
two houses that I saw them put up near me was wrapped.  I assume that the owner
paid more for it.

As .18 mentions though, the Masonite (maybe a brand name) is getting to be very
common - even on "upper class" houses.  Keep it painted (ie keep the water
out!) and it should last just as long as cedar.

Brian J. - owner of a Asswood Homes house (oh, sorry about that type-o, but my
           backspace key is broken and I can't fix it :-) )

    Thanks,
    
    My suspicious mind thought that they just wouldn't want one
    house in the development where the siding didn't fall off in 10 years
    time.  ;-)
    
    Apart from the siding, the general construction seemd to be much better
    than the Stabile home that we have.  PT sole plates bolted down, good
    carpentry, and quality materials.
    
    Unfortunately, the only decent-size lots have an easement for right of
    way that runs smack through the back yards.   Time to review the
    "be your own general contractor notes" I guess.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

I came close to purcasing an Ashwood home a couple of years ago and
I was quoted a price for upgrading to cedar siding.  (I think it was
$5K but not sure).  We never got to P&S so I don't know if they would
have re-negged later, but at the time they were very amenable to
lots of spec changes.  After reading this notes conference, I had *LOTS*
of quality issues to address and they were great about it.

Maybe it's because we were at the tail end of the recession (spring/summer 92)
and now the supply/demand is switching?  Maybe it's because they were 
anxious to sell lots in an upcoming new development.

Another interesting note on Ashwood and siding is that the above
house was in Nashua.  I later was house-hunting in Pepperell/Groton
area and they had a listing for a to-be-built and the siding was
listed as "cedar"!!!    regional marketing???

    My understanding is Masonite's cheapest, then vinyl, then cedar.  The
    builder's just lazy, or knows his crews would screw up a cedar job.
    
    "better than the Stabile home ..." that's easy :-) 
    
    ed

>>    builder's just lazy, or knows his crews would screw up a cedar job.

I don't think this builder would care if the crew screwed up the job :-)

bjm

	re:. 24

	Cedar Clapboards with scarf joints should not cost any more than 
	butt joints no matter what a builder may tell you. The only difference
	is that the cutoff saw is set for a 45 degree bevel instead of a 
	90 degree bevel. 

	Paul

    
    Is it possible to repair split cedar clapboards by filling them in some
    way?
    
    Also, I have a couple of spare lengths that have been in the basement
    for about 2 years.  They seem to have warped into a curve (cupped?)
    and I suspect that they would also split if I attempted to use them.
    
    Can I wet them and weight them down to flatten out the warp.  Or
    will they curl up again when dry?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    Colin,
    	
    If the siding is a solid color, you could try a latex caulking to fill the
    crack before re-painting/staining. Try an inconspicuous location first,
    just in case you don't like the results. Caulking is available in multitude
    of colors, mostly earth tones, try something close to final color.

    As for a cupped board, try laying it out in the morning dew, with the
    crown up. Keep an eye on it once the sun is out and it should
    straighten itself out in a few hour hours. What you'll be doing is
    drying the side with high moisture and and adding moisture to the dry
    side.  You need to play games if the cup isn't uniform the whole length
    of the board, by protecting the good section on the underside or
    wetting a section which is worse than the rest. Thicker boards can be 
    brought back this way as well, but you may need to re-soak the ground 
    once or twice.  If you're not ready to install it right away store it in a 
    dry location, like the attic and weight it down as well. Otherwise work it 
    and seal it completely when it dries to the touch.
    
    /Jim

    
    .5
    
    Great - thanks for the tips

    If they were concerned with future customer satisfaction or having to
    repaint, they may have wanted to be sure they didn't have to deal with 
    "bleeding" in a year or two.  Cedar often bleeds or stains through the
    paint unless very thoroughly pretreated.  White paint seems to be 
    especially prone to show bleed-throughs.  I've seen a house painted 2
    times, and still more stains came through.

    A recent building magazine showed an "Earth-friendly" house.  One of
    the products it used was orient strand board (OSB).  It's made of wood
    remnants held together with a waterproof resin.  It's layered in
    alternating directions (like plywood) for strength.  They didn't give
    any details about durability or whatever.
    
    I just had my house painted -- Masonite siding.  Unfortunately, it had
    needed painting for the last two years or so, and now the siding's
    coming apart and needs to be replaced within the next five years or so. 
    On the other hand, the house is some 25 years old.  The lesson is that
    Masonite is okay IFF you keep it protected with regular maintenance.

    OSB has many advantages over plywood like it will not delaminate as
    readily, is stronger per given thickness etc.  It is also heavier so
    consideration must be given if using for roofing that the roof system
    can take the loads.  OSB has been around for a long time BTW and is
    cheaper than a comparable thickness of plywood.  
    
    Brian

    
    We've now had a chance to look at houses ranging from 0 to 25
    years with all kinds of different siding.  Even the denser
    "post masonite" stuff really suffers if not repainted right after
    the builders finish.  I guess that unless you specify a primer
    and two topcoats, most builders get away with a single coat.
    Kind of odd seeing a 10-yr-old house that is immaculate inside
    yet has the siding rotting off the outside.
    
    It seems that even with the problems of wood clapboard splitting
    it's a lot more resilient than the man-made stuff.  It's also
    more forgiving if you leave painting a little later than you should.
    Try that with the pressed fibre siding and as soon as the first flake
    of paint hits the ground the siding is sucking up water like
    a trans-saraha camel.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    Well, It's going pretty well.  Have about a third (or that's how many
    squares of shingles I've put up :)) done so far.  I rip sections down
    and re-side up.  Easiest to rip from the top down-- can pull 10'-15'
    sections down from the top of each "board".  
    
    Question:  any danger of asbestos in the masonite?  I called a number
    listed in here for the EPA in Boston, and they said 30 years old is the
    rough cutoff (house is 20 years old).  "Probably less than 1%
    asbestos".  Should I be worried?  
    
    Regards,
    Becca
    

    Wear a mask (buy one or tie a handkerchief around your face).  It's
    probably kinda dusty work, anyway.

>>    asbestos".  Should I be worried?  

I kind of go along the lines of "everything in moderation".  I think the threat
of asbestos is over-blown.  Sure I'd have a mask on but I sure as hell would
not call the heath department down to "check it out".  For all I know they
would end up saying the house would have to be wrapped in plastic and you would
have to dress up in the white suits before entering every day, not to mention
what it would then cost me to dispose of the "toxic waste covering my house"
:-)

bjm

    I have a piece that is solid execpt for about three feet on the end.
    How (if I can) can I cut the piece to just replace the split end?
    
    Do I remove the whole piece?
    
    The other notes have helped in how to remove the nails and boards.
    
    JR

      Hi,
    
        I want to side my house with cedar shingles and I will
        need to do it myself.  I'm just wondering if anyone can
        offer any inputs on how to find out how to do the job.
    
        Its a 2 story house so I'll need to make a scaffolding 
        as well.
    
        I have masonite on there now which I consider to be 
        not worth having.
    
        Any inouts welcome including where to get some literature
        on how best to do the job.
    
    						Tony

    Hi Tony,
    
    I'm halfway (yeah!!!) done this and have entered notes on it.  Check
    out the masonite notes and shingle notes.  I'm ripping 10' sections of
    the masonite off myself and shingling up (leaving 1/2" to 3/4" of lap).  
    Had a heck of a time getting rid of the masonite.  
    
    Pumpjacks work well for me, once I figured them out.  I have 15' 2x4's
    for the vertical supports.  I don't have too much trouble moving them
    myself-- you find all the little tricks as you go.  
    
    Regards,
    Becca

    A couple of things that will help out:
    
    Lay out the vertical spacing of the rows ahead of time, so rows line
    up at the bottoms and tops of windows and doors; that way you don't
    end up with having to put in a 3/4" high row that looks weird.
    
    Get yourself a long, straight 1x3 and staple a couple 2"x10" strips
    of aluminum flashing to it, wrapping it around the bottom edge.  Then,
    with a single staple using one leg of the staple only, staple the
    top of the flashing to the wall such that the top of the board lines
    up with the shingle line.  You can then just set the shingles on the
    board to line them up for nailing. When you're done, knock the board
    loose with a hammer; the aluminum flashing will tear loose from the
    single staple (now covered up by shingles) and you can just pull the
    flashing out...you have to be careful not to nail through the flashing
    when you put the shingles on, of course.....
    

      Thanks!
    
      Ya know...every time I've discussed wanting to put up cedar
      shingles with contractors, they always seem to push vinyl.
    
      Must be a high profit margin with vinyl (and of course low
      labor).
    
      I'd rather go more natural though I suspect it will be a lot 
      of work.
    
      Becca...that masonite's a bunch of crap, huh???!
    
    						Tony

    Vinyl's quick.  I have a gag reflex with vinyl.  I *love* the cedar! 
    
    A lot of people just vinyl over the masonite-- but I've found lots
    of bugs/ants/insects living in the gaps under the masonite (the boards
    aren't tapered!!!!  Yuck!).  

I'm curious.  Why shingles instead of clapboards?

Shingles give a different look.  On some house styles shingles look better,
on others clapboards do.  I happen to like the irregularity of shingles -
at least on a Cape-style house like mine.

				Steve

    
    How about the worst of both worlds?  Mother-in-law's house is
    sided with fake vinyl shingles......shudder.
    
    C.

Some of them look ok - I've seriously considered the Nailite and
Certainteed vinyl siding which is moulded to look like shingles.  The biggest
problem I have with it is the limited color selection.  I agree that the
majority of vinyl siding looks awful.

				Steve