Conference 7.286::home_work

    I just had to replace one and finally went to True Value. They had
    the best price BY FAR. Don't know about your area.
    
    Merle

    Sorry for little digression.  I just happened to come across this topic
    on gas heaters when I was thinking of putting my own question. 

    I have a Rheem 40 gallon gas heater.  It is not even a month old. When
    I came home, the water was cold and the pilot had gone off. I tried
    many times but had no luck in getting the pilot to stay on.  I borrowed
    couple of books from the library.  Glancing from those books and the owner's
    manual it looks as if the thermocouple is not working. 
    
    I am not able to understand a two-wire cable connected to the
    thermocouple.  It runs up and connects to a small device which
    resembles a power transistor.  This "power transistor" is tacked
    on to the hood of the blower.  What is that?  Funny thing is that
    there is an extra "power transistor" hanging on the heater, as if
    it some kind fuse and is supposed to be an expendable device.
    
    I hope to get hold of the plumber the first thing tomorrow as I do not
    think this looks like a DYI job. 
    
    Any helpful hints or suggestions?

    Thanks,
    - Vikas

    I just replaced my gas water heater for a total cost of less than
    $300.00.  I purchased it at Aubochon Hardware and they recommneded
    a plumber who could install it for me.
    

    	I arrived home yestarday to find about 100 gallons of water
    in the cellar and the hot water tank bottom dripping.  It had only
    been leaking since the night before at the earliest since I checked
    after we got home from the weekend.  I shudder to think what could
    have happened if it started Friday night while I was away.  You
    think they could come up with an auto shut off system.
    	I need quick information on GAS hot water systems.  Specifically:
    
    	1) Are there good brands and bad brands?
    	2) Are there any good sales going on?
    	3) Is two stage firing much better than one stage?
    	4) Are double annode systems worth the extra money?
    
    	My present hot water system is a separate OIL fired system and
    vents through a 6" pipe into the same chimney as my FHA system.
    I am assuming that gas systems vent cooler so the inspectors should
    not be concerned.  Am I right?  Most of the gas systems that I looked
    at vent through a 3 or 4" pipe so a trip to the sheet metal shop
    for an adapter is in order.  Any information, especially if entered
    quickly, is appreciated.  
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(We all check our tank annodes every year just like the book
    says, right?)

      Don't assume that you can vent gas along with oil.  Check with
    your town's building inspector.  It seems to me that gas must be
    vented by itself but that may not be correct.  I had an electric
    one installed a few months ago and when talking with the plumber,
    he made the comment that there are maybe two companies that actually
    make water heaters and everybody puts their own name on them.  When
    asked whether or not 10 year water heaters were really that much
    better than 5 year units, he said the only difference was labeling.
    Even though I did not purchase the original water heater, Sears
    did give me a new one because the original was still under the '10
    year warranty'.  I did have to pay for delivery, installation and
    service contract. :^)
    
    -Jim
    

    My experience has been (in N.J.) that you can vent a gas hot water
    heater and an oil furnace in the same flue, but the gas heater vent
    opening in the flue must be above the furnace flue opening.
    
    Check with your local building inspector to be sure.
    
    Nick

    
    	My liquid propane water heater is installed in the same flue
    as my oil burner. It is above the oil exaust ocnnection. It
    was installed 1 year ago by the proane company, who are professional
    plumbers, this one was at least.
    
    al
    

                                                       
    	I had the building inspector over yestarday for the final sign
    off of my kitchen.  While he was there I asked for his advice and
    showed him my set up.  He will allow oil and gas to be vented into
    the same chimney but as .2 says the gas must be vented ABOVE the
    oil.  The reason is if the gas system discharges gas into the chimney
    the sparks from the oil system will not cause an explosion.
    	I've chipped a new 3" vent above the oil flue and will put
    everything together this weekend.  I'm calling in a plumber to do
    the final water and gas hook ups.  Selecting a water heater was
    a pain.  I went to Sears and was confused by the five different
    models they had for sale.  I then went to a plumbing supply house
    and bought a 5 year, 40 gal gas water heater for $240.
                                                          
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(boy am I glad they have showers in the plant!)

    The gas and LP codes are part of the Plumbing Code book, which I
    have on the shelf at home (haven't had to plumb my DEC cube lately).
    Will try and remember to look this up over the weekend.
    
    -reed
    

   
Your plumbing inspector is partially right; the part he is wrong 
on was updated at some recent (but unspecified) time:  Gas and 
oil are OK, gas and sold are not.  However, there is a fine line 
to tread on this subject, which is the difference between 
"chimney" and "flue."  The former may have multiple of the 
latter, and the code's prohibition on mixed gas and solid is PER 
FLUE, not per chimney.

Here is an extract FYI

7.9.2 MATERIALS:  
b.  ...Vent connectors for combination gas- and oil- buring 
applicanes, residential incinerators and applicanes other than
those noted in '1' above, and which are not installed in attics, 
shall be of Type L vent material, factory build chimney section 
or steel pipe having resistance to heat and corrosion not less 
than that of galvanized steel specified in table X:

    minimum thickness for galvanized steel vent connectors
    for low-heat appliances

    diameter of connector, inches       min thickness, inch
    less than 6                         0.019  (26 gage)
    6-less than 10                      0.23  (24)
    10 -12 inclusive                    0.029 (22)
    14-16 inclusive                     0.034 (20)
    over 16                             0.056 (16)


7.9.3 SIZE OF VENT CONNECTOR

c. When two or more gas appliances are connected to a common vent 
or chimney, the efective area of each vent connector shall be in 
accordance with approved engineering practices.  Reverence may be 
mae to tables G4 thru G6 in appendix G.  As an alternate method, 
each vent connector shall have an effective area not less than 
the area of the draft hood outlet of the applicance to which it 
is connected.

7.9.4 TWO OR MORE APPLIANCES CONNECTED TO A SINGLE VENT
a. Gas utilization equipment shall not be connected to a chimney 
flue service a separate applicance designed to burn solid fuel.
b. Gas utilization equipment and equipment burning liquid fuel 
may be connected to one chimney flue through seperate opentings 
or may be connected through a single opening if joined by a 
suitable fitting located as close as practical to the chimney.  
If two or more openings are provided into one chimnet flue, they 
shall be at different levels.  If the gas utilization equipment 
is automatically controlled, it shall be equipped with a safety 
shutoff device.
c. When two or more vent connectors enter a common gas vent, 
chinmey flue or single-wall metal pipe, the smaller connector 
shall enter at the highest level consistent with the available 
headroom or clearance to combustible material.



---------

The useful portion is the last section, as the earlier parts seem 
to deal with combination gas and solid or liquid applicances.  
Can someone give me an ideas as to what such as appliance might 
be?  I've been trying to think of one and cannot!

Hope this helps you our,
-reed

    My neighbor has a combination gas/wood hot air furnace in his house.
    I don't know what the flue situation is in his case though.
    
    Nick

	And to muck up things further, I have the Hearthstone II woodstove
	with built in gas furnace.  Same burning chamber for both vented
	into the same flue....

	-gary

I want to replace my ancient GAS hot water heater soon.  I saw what Sears 
has.  Where else does one shop to find 'competitive' brands?  I want 
to buy it myself for the best price, and then pay a plumber to do the 
minimal install work that a plumber (sigh) has to do.  Does anyone 
have experience with Rheem, A.O. smith, etc?  Who discounts these?

thanx/j

PS:  and of course, ALL RECOMMENDATIONS ARE WELCOME

    What minimal work does a plumber have to do? Are you discussing
    ability or regulations?

    I have a gas fired hot water heater that periodically has problems
    with its pilot going out. The unit is fairly new (4 months) and
    works fine except every couple of weeks the pilot seems to go out.
    I have checked the vents for obstructions and found nothing. The
    draft deverter located on top of the heater was alittle off center
    so I repositioned it but the problem still has occurred. Has anyone
    else experienced similar problems and if so, how did you solve it?
    
    Thanks in advance!

    If the unit has a thermocouple (most do) that is defective it
    could cause the pilot to go out.  SPAGs at one time carried them
    and at that time they cost around $4.  The purpose of the thermocouple
    is to shut the gas off if the pilot goes out.  I have had such a
    problem but it was not on a unit that new.

    
    
    Something new for Gas Water Heater without chimney !
    
    From the Boston Globe, 7/24/88 w/o permission :
    
    "New Gas Water Heater Dosen't Need a Chimney"
    
    Homes with central gas or oil-fired heating systems have a furnace (or
    boiler) room that is located near a chimney so that dangerous gases can
    be vented. This same area usually contains a seperate water heater
    because, unless it is electric, it must also be vented.
    
    While it does not make much difference where the central heating system
    is located - although placing it in the center of the home has its
    advantages - if the water heater is located far from the kitchen or
    bath areas where hot water is consumed, the water will coll slightly,
    and when you call for hot water, you must wait a few extra seconds.
    
    Electric water heaters - in most instances much more expensive to
    operate than gas-fired units - can be located near the kitchen or bath;
    many do not require a vent.
    
    But now we no longer need to locate a gas-fired water heater near the
    chimney for venting; locate it anywhere near an outside wall and vent
    it through the wall as illustrated. Manufactured by one of the largest
    water heater companies in the country, US Water Heater Co, 2410
    Ellsworth Street, Philadelphia, PA 19146, the heaters are available in
    the ususal 30-, 40-, and 50-gallon sizes in either regular or energy
    efficient model.
    
    The idea of a fan-vented heater was originally conceived not too many
    years ago when new homes in the Philadelphia area were required to use
    electric heaters because gas was not available. Electricity in that
    area costs about three times as much as heating with gas, and since
    water-heater life ranges from 6 to 12 years, when gas became available
    in the area, those homes without chimneys represented the ideal market
    for a gas replacement heater that could be vented to an outside wall;
    remember, these homes did not have a chimney. Since more and more new
    homes are using heating systems that do not require a chimney (they too
    are vented through the wall), the market for this type of water heater
    is even bigger.
    
    So if you currently have an electric water heater, when replacement
    time and the BTU cost of electricity is much more than that of natural
    or propane gas, you have a new option that could save you important
    dollars.
    
    Illustration : FLUE_LESS FLEXIVENT THROUGH-THE-WALL GAS HOT WATER
                   HEATER BY US WATER HEATER COMPANY.
    
    
    =========================
    
    
    Has anyone seen one of these ... ?  Seems to solve the multiple fuel
    type per flue problem for those gas/oil/wood people out there !

.12>    Something new for Gas Water Heater without chimney !

.12>    But now we no longer need to locate a gas-fired water heater near the
.12>    chimney for venting; locate it anywhere near an outside wall and vent
.12>    it through the wall as illustrated. 

.12>    The idea of a fan-vented heater was originally conceived not too many
.12>    years ago when new homes in the Philadelphia area were required to use
.12>    electric heaters because gas was not available. 

.12>    Has anyone seen one of these ... ?  

Over in Europe gas boilers have been fitted with "through-the-wall" venting
for at least twenty years.  The technique is called "balanced-flue" venting.
I don't know whether the "through-the-wall" technique uses a fan or not: (I
don't _think_ it does.)  No matter; it has always worked so well that I've 
never had to think about it. Certainly on the gas boilers which I have had 
which have been vented by this method I have never had the gas extinguished
by blow-back even in the highest winds.

_If_ these vents are modelled on the Europoean style then I would have no 
hesitation in recommending them.  Perhaps you could phone the company, ask 
them to drop all the hyperbole and tell you how similar/dissimilar they are 
to European designs.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    Since it has been several years since this note has been written
    into, I thought I would ask the question again.  Are there any
    recommendations for specific makes/models of gas hot water heaters?
    Prices would be nice too ... if they are recent.  Our hot water
    heater has been leaking from the top for several months now.  Just
    about everyone in our neighborhood has replaced thiers in the past
    three years so .... I guess it's our turn.
    
    Any recommendations/advice will be greatly appreciated.
    
    Joyce
    

    Hey, isn't there anyone out there that has bought a gas hot water
    heater in the last year?  Or, just pros and cons about the one you
    have now?
    
    Joyce
    

    Hi there.
    My gas kenmore broke and I got a new 40 gallon state brand direct
    from the gas company.
    
    so far I am pleased with it. It cost $375 installed.
    

About 10 years ago my water heater  died  in  the middle of December.  I called
the gas company and had them install a  new  one.    Later I shopped around and
found that I paid about a 25% premium over the cost of having Sears do it.

About 2 years ago that water heater went.   I  shopped at the local Grossman's,
Sears  and a local hardware store.  I bought the  "most  energy  efficient"  40
gallon  unit that the hardware store sold - basically, a $150.00  "El  Cheapo".
It was light enough to bring home with my son's help in  the pickup, although a
station wagon would have done just as well.  It took all of an hour to take the
old unit out and put the new unit in.

If  you can do the plumbing, (therefore, the Gas hookup), do it yourself.   The
hard  part  is  taking out the old unit if the insulation has filled with water
fom a leak.  If you don't want to do it yourself, go to the gas  company.    At
least  if  there  is a problem, they will come out at virtually any time to fix
it.

Luck,

Dave

    
    re .8
    
    >>			      -< state is good >-
    
    		Kenmore is State
    
    Mike

    I want to move my water heater and I have a question about the venting
    of it.  Today, it is on the same side of the chimney (one flue) as the gas 
    furnace and is vented by a common vent pipe in a Y congiguration.  I want 
    to move the water heater to the opposite side of the chimney and vent it 
    into a hole in the chimney on that side (the hole is allready there,
    presently covered by a plate).
      
    The hole in the chimney is at the same level as the exhaust outlet on the 
    water heater.  Is this a problem?  Intuitively it seems that the chimney 
    opening has to be higher than the water heater.  Is this true or can I
    move the water heater without concern?
    Thanks,
    
    George 

The vent pipe from the water heater MUST slope upwards towards the chimney.
Indeed, when I moved into my house, the water heater was NOT set up this
way, and I was informed it was a code violation.  I had it redone.

			Steve

    There is another notes conference which has just begun with a focus on
    energy conservation.  Recently a question came up about set back timers
    for Gas Water Heaters.  I have posted the replies here.

      <<< DISCVR::CLUSPAGSWP:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ENERGY_CONSERVATION.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< Energy Conservation >-
================================================================================
Note 25.4                     Gas water heater info                       4 of 5
JURAN::HUTZLEY "huMP Day"                            46 lines   6-FEB-1991 07:42
                           -< I think I found one! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .3
>                           <<< Note 25.3 by CSSE32::THOMAS >>>
>                     -< Electric works, gas still unknown >-
>    I have been unable to locate any info on a gas control. I would even be
>    interested in one that turns the unit off at night instead of a
>    setback. Anything which will reduce the gas usage. I am a
>    conservationist at heart and conservation is expensive (sometimes).
>

	I think I found what you are lookin for. 
        DAMARK catalog, pp 51
        AMF/PARAGON Qwaterback(tm) Gas water heater time control
        Description:

        -Gas water heater time control
        -Scheduled thermostat heats water only at high use times
        -For naturaly gas water heaters
        -Pays for itself in about 1 year
        -Lowers natural gas consumption

        (Personal observation:
            It looks kinda like one of those lamp timers that you pull out
    the little prongs for on and off cycles. I think these type of timers
    are limited to 1 hour min cycle time, and will only operate "ON THE
    HOUR")


        *90 day Mfr. Warranty
        *Factory new

        Mfr. sugg. retail = US$59.95
        Damark price      = US$19.95

        Item #: B367-148197

        S/H = US$5.50

        24 HR TOLL FREE NUMBER....1-800-729-3000
        Product info..............1-800-729-4744
        Cust service..............1-612-531-0082

        ** All std disclaimers apply here!, I have no affiliation with this
    company, nor have I ever, I have no interest in this company...etc...etc.


        Steve

================================================================================
Note 25.5                     Gas water heater info                       5 of 5
ODIXIE::RAMSEY "EMT's Save Lives "                   33 lines  12-FEB-1991 15:38
                             -< More information >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I called Paragon to get more information about the QuarterBack Water
    Heater Timer Control. (414 793 1161).
    
    They said the way it works it that the device fits over your thermostat
    control knob.  During the setback period, it turns your control knob to
    a lower degree setting.  The minimum setting is based on your water
    heater's limits.  The idea being that if the degree setting is lowered,
    there will not be a call to keep the water hot, thereby not firing the
    heater, thereby saving fuel/money.  They claim that the device works
    with 95% of the water heaters on the market.  It works with natural gas
    only, not bottled gas.
    
    I asked if they had any test data around savings.  The fella on the
    line did not have any test data but he felt "oh you should probably
    save at least 50% of your heating bill since your water heater will off
    at least 12 hours during a 24 hour period.  You know like when you are
    sleeping and at work."  I would guess more like 30%-35% of my WATER
    heating bill, not my total gas bill.  
    
    The device has 48 prongs, to allow 1/2 hour settings, which you push in
    and pull out to indicate the time frames for setback and normal useage. 
    It runs by using normal house current so the device has to be plugged
    into a 2 prong outlet.  The device comes with a 5 or 6 ft cord; I got
    conflicting information.  It also has an override switch which would allow
    the water heater to maintain your "normal" temp during times when you
    have house guests or unusal usage times.
    
    Paragon no longer makes the device and has sold off all its stock to
    outlet houses.  That is probably the reason for the difference in
    manufacturers list price and the catalog price.
    
    Oh, by the way the phone number to order is incorrect in the previous
    reply.  The last 4 numbers are 9000 not 3000.

    
    Also check out the Edmund's Scientific catalog.
    
    Dave'
    

    Can you post contact information forf Edmund's Scientific catalog
    please?

    I didn't see a timer controller in the catalog I have,
     but the address is:
    
    Edmund Scientific Company
    101 E. Gloucester Pike
    Barrington, NJ  08007-1380
    
    For Orders (609) 547-8880
    Customer Service (609) 573-6260

    My Qwaterback arrived in the mail late last week and I was planning on
    installing it this weekend but other things came up.  I got the easy
    part accomplished though.  
    
    They send two clear plastic covers or dials.  Each one is designed with
    a particular thermostat in mind.  They snap on to the front of the
    thermostat so they have to fit your thermostat.  My biggest fear was
    that I had some obsure thermostat but all for naught.  The cover has a
    hole which accepts a peg with one flat side from the setback device.
    
    Just like a lamp timer, you set the start and end boundaries by raising
    and lowering clips on the timer.  The timer allows up to 3 normal temp.
    cycles and 3 set back cycles during a 24 hour period.  The timer spins
    as time passes.  When you setback time arrives, the device spins the
    flat peg which spins your thermostat control to a lower temp setting. 
    When the Normal temp cycle begins, the flat peg is rotated in the other
    direction and the thermostat is turned up to your normal setting.
    
    It has two types of override switches, long term and short term.  The
    long term switch is a simple toggle switch.  Switch to High and it
    keeps the thermostat at your normal setting until switched differently
    (vistiors staying for a few days).  Switch to low and it keeps the
    thermostat at the lower setting until switched differently (vacation).
    Set the switch to the middle position and it follows the normal
    program.  The short term switch is a small trip switch.  You turn it
    1/8 turn and it turns the setting to what ever it isn't at the time and
    does so until the next normal setting change at which time it continues
    the normal programming cycle.
    
    It does require an electrical outlet.  The literature says it is all
    right to use an extension cord but my problem is I still don't have any
    outlets remotely close.  I will have to drill a hole in the floor and
    run a new outlet to the water heater closet to plug in the setback
    device.
    
    One of the questions that has come up in my mind is will the
    electricity to run the setback device cost less, equal, or more than
    the cost of the gas I am saving?  ;^)  Our gas bill is only $8 a month
    in the summer when the only device using gas is the water heater so if
    I save the 30%-35% the box says I am supposed to save, it will take a
    full year to pay for the $19.95 device and $5 shipping and handling. 
    Hardly seems worth all the effort to install a new outlet.  Maybe if I
    started using more hot water, then the 30% savings would be bigger and
    it would be worthwhile. ;^)
    
    I don't expect a noticable difference in our utitlity bill but every
    little bit helps.

    I would expect that the setback device uses less than a dime's
    worth of electricity per year.
    
    		Steve

If it's got a clock motor (typically 4 watts) running 24 hrs X 365 days,
it'll use about 35 Kwh per year.  More like a six-pack than a phone call.

    A *cheap* six-pack, at that.
    
    	-Hoop-

    There have been several notes on grouting, but here's a different one:
    
    We just (2 days ago) finished grouting the tile floor in our new 
    addition. We had bought one bottle of Silicon Sealer to seal the 
    tile and grout. However, we talked to some neighbors who had used
    the same product and then complained that it seemed to come off 
    after about a week. The tile store where we bought our tile 
    recommended using Murphy's Oil Soap (!) as a sealant, but only
    after the grout has cured for 30 days. So my question is ...
    
    How do you seal grout? 
    
    (By the way, the grout not silicon)
    
    thanks - Dave

    
    
       Hi Dave,
    
      I have put my slate floor in my bathroom recently. I sealed the floor
    about 2 months ago. I used 3 coats, one after the other, about a half
    hour in between. Since then......Great. When I walk toward the bathroom
    it shines as though I just put it on. I'm very impressed. I'm sure
    you'd like it. Anyway the sealer I got is from Somerville Lumber. The
    particuler one is on Rt. 9, although they should all carry the same
    in all stores. It too is called Silicon sealer. Cost is around $6.00.
    
           Sorry I can't remember the exact name but it was the only one
    they had. 
     
                            Good Luck,   Al
    

I'd have bet serious cash that we already had a grout sealing note.....

But we didn't.

Paul

    When I installed tile in my bathroom I bought a pump spray bottle of
    liquid that was used to waterproof and seal the grout.  I forget what
    it is called but I can look tonight.  All you did was to sray the grout
    lines and wipe off the excess.
    
    

    Hope I can get an answer about grouting/caulking tiled areas around a
    tub.  I am about to finish tiling around a tub.  The walls and ceiling
    were not square anywhere, so there was lots of cutting to be done. 
    Here is my question: Should I grout and/or caulk the corners?  These
    are the 90 degree (approx) inside corners were upright walls meet and
    where walls meet ceiling.  I was thinking that these would be grouted,
    but would normal expansion and contraction break the grout in these
    areas?  
    
    Any tips would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeff

I have a shower that the previous owner grouted between the tile and the
base.  Since grout hardens, it can't handle the normal movement when a 200
lb. person steps into the shower, and it cracks.

I'm now in the process of repairing rotten wall board and replacing tiles,
due to the fact that the grout didn't seal.  I'll be using caulk for the
tile to base joint, so I don't have to go through this again.

I will second .-1 - grout the tiles except at the bottom top and sides of a wall
- then use silicone sealant to do the surrounds. You should also use silicone
sealant between the bathtub and the tiles - most bathtubs settle with the weight
of water & a body - this breaks most grout seals - the tip here is to fill the
bath with COLD water (less condensation) before sealing between the tub and the
tiles; when the sealant has dried (usually about 24hrs), empty the water and the
sealant will compress a little - this reduces the possibility of the seal being
broken when the bath is in use.

I have found that there is always some movement between walls and ceiling 
(different materials expanding/contracting) at different rates so I would always
go for sealant.

Hope this helps

Nigel

    Thanks for the responses.  I have used caulk where the walls meet.
    
    Jeff

    
    I'd like to hear if anyone who has a gas water heater has ever had the
    anorod(SP?) checked and subsequently replaced?  My heater is about four
    years old and amid recent horror stories here at work about hotwater
    heaters springing leaks...I thought I check out this option. 
    
    It is apparently possible to have this thing checked for corrosion and
    if it is in a certain condition (bad), get it replaced.  This is
    supposed to extend the life of the water heater. 
    
    Any input gratefully accepted.
    
    Carol

    re-.1 Thats anode and yes they greatly extend the life of the heater
    the anode corrodes in sacrifice slowing the corrosion to the heater.
    
    Never replaced one though but I did install one on a stock tank and
    it's plumbing once.
    
    -j

    Well I just had a very rude yet interesting phone converstation with 
    EnergyNorth in Nashua (where I bought the heater in 1985).  They inform
    me that they do not remove anode rods and check them.  I really think
    this information is erroneous.   The reason i called them anyway is
    that we tried to take the thing out and it couldn't be budged.  Anyone
    have any suggestions?
    
    Carol  

RE: .14

 The only difference between a 5 year tank and a 10 year tank is the the anode 
diameter, the 10 year anode being larger in diameter.

 All you need to replace it is a big wrench and plenty of leverage. 

 Although the anode isn't normally removed for periodic inspection it doesn't 
surprise me that Energy North will tell you you can't remove/replace the rod 
cause then they won't get to sell you a new tank in a year or so. :-)

 Check out the nearest heating and plumbing supply house. I bet they can get 
one for your model tank.

    re .14 & .15
    
    I think you are being too harsh on Energy North.  Although they used to
    do their own installation and repair, they now refer you to a plumber
    for anything other than GAS emergencies.  They can turn an appliance on
    and/or off, check the work done by plumbers, even replace a
    thermocouple, but they don't get into much more than that.  I suspect
    they were saying that THEY do not mess with anodes, not that anodes
    cannot be replaced.
    
    FWIW

  
     I have a gas hot water heater (less than 3 yrs old) that seems to
     have broken down internally (I think). Rust colored water is coming
     out of the hot water faucets while the cold water is crystal clear.
     Draing water from the valve on the bottom of the tank confirms that
     the water is indeed rusty at that point. Any clues as to what would
     be causing this condition and what steps are needed to remedy it?

     Thanks in advace.
     Paul

Have you tried to drain a large quantity of water from you heater 2 gallons or
so? Rust will settle at the the bottom of the the tank. I just had a new water
heater installed and the installer recommneded that a gallon of water be drained
every month to increase tank life. It seems a 3 year old water heater should
not have internal errosion. If you drain of a couple of gallons and the rust
still exists I would call the place you bought it from assumuing its still under
warranty. Good Luck..


			John

    I agree with .1 - how long has this condition existed?  I have known of
    instances where the lining was faulty and did in fact corrode.  In
    general, you should contact the manufacturer, even if it is not under
    warranty.  See if there is a date stamped on the unit, usually around
    the serial number.  You may only have this a short time but there is no
    saying how long it was in someone's inventory.
    
    Worst case scenario is that the unit has begun to rust through.  In
    that case it does not pay to seek cheaper alternatives to repair -
    you're facing installation of a new unit.  Sorry!
    
    Many times, however, manufacturers will give some credit (if not a
    total replacement) in the interest of customer satisfaction.  Give it a
    try.
    
    By the way - is there a valve in the hot water line which can be
    tapped?  If so, see if you're still getting the rusting condition.  Is
    your house plumbing galvanized or copper?  Galvanized rusts - copper
    doesn't which could isolate the problem.
    
    re;
    Tom (DTN) 352-2122

    For four people who like to take long, hot showers, what SIZE 
    "Gas" Hot Water Heater do you recommend?  The plumber is saying 
    that 50 gallons would be more than adequate.  Do you agree?
    (It seems to me that electric hot water heaters usually are 
    80 gallons.  I don't know if the recomended size is partially 
    determined by whether it is electric or gas.)  By the way, the 
    house is heated by gas too.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Gale
    

    
    40-gal does OK for my family of four -- and two of them really like to
    peel the wallpaper.
    

    I suspect an electric water heater is usually larger because
    it probably has a much slower recovery rate.

    Check with those tankless hot water tank.  It took much less space,
    you don't have to wait before shower ... I use it for 4 years now and
    very satisfy with it.
    
    Alex

<                  -< Check other option - Tankless hot water >-
<
<    Check with those tankless hot water tank.  It took much less space,
<    you don't have to wait before shower ... I use it for 4 years now and
<    very satisfy with it.
    
  The brand name PALOMA comes to mind.  They were available from Suburban
Propane in Marlboro a few years ago.  If someone is into GAS hotwater heaters
and is about to do a replacement (or initial installation), the extra $$ you 
spend up front will be quickly surpassed by the savings in not having to keep
50 gal of water hot all the time.

Al

    Gas water heaters heat water quickly.  Our 32-gallon one never runs out
    with two of us.  However, when my hour-long-showers brother is
    visiting, he drains both it and the solar preheat tank that now feeds
    it, which is another 82 gallons!  (I've been tempted to turn off the hot
    water on him to get him out of the one-and-only bathroom....)  A
    fifty-gallon tank ought to be plenty, unless you all go through as much
    water as dear brother!  We had a big electric water heater when I was a
    kid, and it took several hours to heat up if you had drained out all
    the hot water; you definitely did not want to be the last person to
    take a shower in the morning.  The gas system is much faster, even if
    it can't keep up with brother (you wouldn't believe how much bath soap
    he consumes, either...).  I think it heats the whole tank in about an
    hour starting with cold tap water - at least it did when we replaced
    the tank a few years back.
    
    I *hate* my mother-in-law's tankless coil.  It will produce an infinite
    supply of lukewarm water, and so is fine for washing clothes (assuming
    you wash in warm water and rinse in cold water, like I do).  But the
    hot-enough-for-a-shower water is all out of the coil in a couple of
    quick minutes.  This usually happens about the time I am trying to
    rinse shampoo out of my hair.  From then on, the experience is, shall
    we say, bracing!  Especially in cold weather.  Your experience may
    vary; the water temperature seems to be fine with my m-i-l.  Also, I
    suspect a gas-fired tankless system might heat water better - hers is
    part of the furnace, which is oil-burning.  I like a real hot shower,
    unless the weather is real hot.
    
    /Charlotte
                              

    After I had a gas water heater corrode and leak after three years,
    I had installed an "AquaBooster" (well, that's a brand name, but
    not of the one we actually got.)  It's a storage tank (40 gallon)
    which hooks up to the existing gas boiler as a separate zone.  When
    the tank detects that it needs heating, it signals the boiler to
    come on, just like a heating thermostat.  The advantages are:
    
    	1.  Excellent insulation around the tank; the shell barely feels
    	    warm, with the result that the boiler really only comes on
    	    when there is demand.
    
    	2.  Effective infinite supply of HOT water (I've had to turn it
       	    down four times until I got it to a tolerable temperature.)
            It has never run out.
    
    	3.  Polyethelene lined tank will never corrode or leak - lifetime
    	    warranty.
    
    	4.  Costs no more (seems to be less) to run than standard
    	    gas heater.
    
    Disadvantage is that it is expensive (cost $1200 installed) but I
    will never have to replace it.
    
    			Steve

Would another disadvantage be that the furnace has to run year-round.  This
could wear out the furnace sooner, and would cost more for gas?

Ed..

My parents had the hot water directly off the furnace.  They ended up putting
a timer on to cut down on oil usage.  I don't know if the furnace was too
old or if this is inherently innefficient.

Ed..

Re: .7

Yes, the boiler runs year-round, but this actually helps it last longer, as
just sitting unused for the summer encourages corrosion.  However, it only
comes on twice a day during the non-heating season typically.  

			Steve

      You might want to consider a water-saver/flow-reducing shower head
      instead of or in addition to a larger heater.  I like the way ours
      sprays much better than standard shower heads and even better than
      some of the fancy, multi-pattern "massage" heads. Other people may
      be neutral or not like these at all, but the DO use less hot water
      per unit of time.

If you have a whirlpool or any large tub units, consider getting a hot water 
heater that will fill the tub.  The typical 2 person whirlpools that go into 
new construction are about 75 gallons.   When I build for someone that wants 
one of these, I always try to get them to use at least a 70 gallon tank. The 
reason being, they will come close to draining the tank when filling the tub
and will certainly drain it if they are doing laundry and dishes while filling
the tub.   

If you don't have a tub this size, then I always try to convince the owners
to get a 50 gallon tank even if there are only two people.  The reason I do
this is because life styles.  Many people don't have time to do chores during
the week so they get up saturday or sunday morning and start working.  They
toss in a load or two of laundry, their spouse is just getting out of bed
and taking a shower, the dishes need to be done from friday or the last
dinner party, the counters need to be wiped and so on..   The person in the
second floor shower is going to be the one that looses.   

The cost to purchase a larger tank is not much and the cost of running a gas
one is pretty low.  Most of the time people are willing to take the trade off
of a very little bit more money and never worrying about running out no matter
what they do.  

As far as instant hots and tankless systems, I don't recommend them.  I'm not
an expert and have no personal experience.  However, many of the plumbers
and suppliers I work with don't recommend them because of the warrantee costs
on them.   They claim that they have a high rate of failure.  

-Rob

    Just happened to be watching one of those DYI programs this weekend and
they were putting up one of the tankless gas-fired water heaters.  One comment
the guy made is that they are designed to be repaired, not replaced and that
the technology had been in Europe for years, some units in excess of 30 years
old.  They offered an 800 number in Vermont for more information


	 AQUASTAR   1-800-642-3111


    I too had an oil-fired tankless water heater and was not impressed, I now
have a gas fired water heater (50 gal tank) and find it adequate, however if
I ever get in the situation of having to replace it, it will be with a tankless
gas fired unit...  They are small, efficient units.  You'll make up the added
cost of installation in a couple years by not having to keep the water hot
when you aren't using it.  This design though does encourage long hot showers
because you never get that luke warm water suggesting you've been in there
long enough...;-)

Al

    Thanks so much for all the valuable information!
    
    Gale
    

    
    I installed a combined heating/hot water tankless system in the UK a
    few years ago.  This is a balanced flue type that vents straight
    through the wall, with a dual burner system for heating and hot water.
    I'd say the main difference is a common complaint from US visitors to
    Europe - not enough POWER in the shower. People in the US like a shower
    that is powerful enough to pin them to a wall!  Simultaneous showers
    are virtually impossible with these systems except when the main
    heating boiler is running, which preheats the hot water.
    
    Very economical, as the heating and hot water are separate, and usually
    modular so parts can be swapped quickly.  Installation is simple, as no
    chimney is required.
    
    On the maintenance side, they tend to fur up very quickly, and should
    always be installed with an in-line filter, which adds more to the
    installation an operating costs.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    But Colin, the differences between UK and N. AM. plumbing would fill
    a book ... not the least of which is the fact that hot water supplies
    are always fed from an in-house storage tank, rather than directly from
    the water supply mains as here.
    
    Central heating water top-up is usually fed from an expanison / top-up
    tank.
    
    Stuart

    Hmm, you folks have given me a devious idea... I have a flow restricter
    for the shower head around someplace, but we ended up taking it out
    because our water pressure is so low that with it in place, you get
    almost no flow (we have a hand-held shower-massage shower head).  Next
    time my brother comes to visit, maybe I'll put it back in!
    
    Nah, I shouldn't be thinking along lines like these on the afternoon
    before Yom Kippur...
    
    I do chores early in the morning, before heading for DEC - weekend time
    is precious, especially in good weather.  So the normal situation
    around our place is that someone is in the shower while the washer is
    running.  I've never noticed any problem, but we don't wash in hot
    water anyhow (warm wash, cold rinse).  I don't usually run the
    dishwasher when I am home if I can help it because it makes so much
    noise (it's 20 years old, so if it breaks to the point where we can't
    fix it anymore, I'll replace it with the quietest one I can find!  This
    one ROARS, and has always done so.).
    
    /Charlotte
                                                 

    
    
    >hot water supplies are always fed from an in-house storage tank, rather
    >than directly from the water supply mains as here.
    
    Not necessarily.  Lots of older houses subdivided into apartments have
    no provision for an attic tank. Multipoint gas systems are designed for
    this and require only a single direct feed from the mains riser.  The
    FHW circuit bleeds and tops up automatically through a restricted inlet
    valve.  A demand valve prevents the boiler running "dry" if mains water
    is cut off.  When we installed a multipoint boiler system in my parents
    house, we took out the attic tank - it serves no useful purpose
    anymore.
    
    No great wrench moving to the US either (pun intended)
    
    Colin
    

    It's amazing where they squeeze those tanks, and amazing how
    ridiculously small they get, and moreover the number of pumps that
    have to be installed on the outlet to feed things to get sufficient
    pressure.  The new attic tanks are fortunately plastic and not
    galvanized ... didn't they just make one huge puddle when the bottom
    rusted out!
    
    Stuart

    
    > didn't they just make one huge puddle when the bottom
    > rusted out!
    
    And one large ice-cube every few winters!
    
    C

    I was wondering, is it much of a savings to keep the setting on
    a gas hot water heater set to VAC rather than WARM?  My husband
    and I quibble about this all the time...
    
    I love a hot shower, especially in winter, but he doesn't mind
    a warm-type shower (by this I mean, just below that satisfying
    hot shower feeling...).
    
    He says it saves us money not by not keeping the thing running all
    the time to keep the water up to temp.  Thing is, WARM is just a 
    tick away from VAC, and geeze, how much difference in price can it
    be???
    
    Any one have a comment.
    
    Deb ;)

    With the price of gas...go with the hot shower. The diff is small
    change.
    
    Marc H.

    Yeah, that's what I think, but....! :?
    
    Thanks!
    
    Deb-brrr.

    
    and if you have a pre-heater on your dishwasher, it has
    to work a little more.  If not, how clean are they getting.
    So now how much are you saving........
    
    JD

Tell him you'll let him set it on VAC if he takes you on vacation.

My hot water tank which is rather large, (not sure why
anyone would have installed one this big) 117 gallons,
just sprang a leak.  I am looking into replacing it,
and have a couple of questions....


1.  I like hot showers (the kind that when you get out
can't see the other side of the room)  will a gas 
hot water heater do this like the oil one that I had?

2.  Why are eletric water tanks so cheap?
	Home Depot stated that a 40gal. Oil hot water
	tank and (heater) would cost $728

	HQ stated that a eletric hotwater heater 40 gal
	will cost $198

	Have not heard back from my gas company yet..



No hot showers until this is fixed... 8-(

mdf.

    My 40 gallon gas WH cost ~$200...
    
    Edd

	    Unless a water heater is already `well' insulated (from the
	factory), a blanket of insulation should be wrapped around it.
	The cost difference between VACation and WARM, especially for
	gas, would then be negligible... except that you'd likely take
	longer showers. ;^)  Getting the water heated is where you use
	the most energy.  Keeping it warm costs next to nothing if the
	tank is well insulated.
	    The outlet pipe acts as a heat sink that will draw heat out
	of your tank.  Insulate the first 6 feet of pipe to offset the
	losses caused by this.  Anything past 6 feet is more work than
	it's worth because it wont really save you much.

					Tim

    Thanks for the replies, we had Boston Gas give us one of their 
    free energy checks on our water heater, furnace and faucets, etc...
    
    He did wrap the pipes that lead to the water heater, but did
    not wrap any insulation (blanket) around the water heater.
    I assume I could find something that is either for this purpose,
    or something I could wrap around it myself.
    
    I should look for one, and oh, I did turn the setting to warm.
    
    Thanks for the help.
    Deb
    

You can buy water heater insulation jackets at any hardware or home supply
store.  They are fairly cheap.

Oil-fired heaters are expensive because they are complicated compared to gas
and electric models, and because the low demand pushes prices up.

			Steve

Perhaps Boston Gas didn't wrap your water heater because it's a newer,
well-insulated model.  When we had our energy audit a few years ago,
the guy wrapped ours.

 RE: Wrapping the hot water heater.

 Just had a new one installed last week. Manufacturer literature that came 
with the heater specifically said DO NOT wrap the exterior as the insulation 
provided is more than adequate to retain the heat. The interior insulation is 
rated at R16.

    The Sears Electric water heater I have *warns* about re-wrapping the
    heater.
    
    
    Marc H.

    Just curious......
    
    I can see why you would need to be careful not to block air intakes or
    heating elements when you wrap a water heater.  As I recall, you don't
    wrap the top either (I now have oil-fired FHW and don't have a separate
    water heater).  However, I really can't understand why they would warn 
    *against* wrapping a heater.  What possible harm can be done?
    
    Chet

    RE: .33
    
    My quess.....the control circuits/wire have a upper limit of say 140 
    degrees F. If a user of the water heater set the temp to the max
    value, the circuits/wiring could overheat. The tank is very well
    insulated ,except around the control areas.
    
    Marc H.

    My current hot water tank (the gas one, not the solar-fired preheat
    tank) also said NOT to wrap it.  It is very heavily insulated already,
    and is cold to the touch.  All the hot water pipes are insulated, as
    are the pipes going in and out of the solar preheat tank.  My old gas
    water heater looked like a big marshmallow in its insulation jacket,
    but that one used to be warm to the touch on the outside, so I assume
    that the insulation jacket saved us a bit of money.  It did take a bit
    of work to cut out around all the controls and sensors on the old tank,
    but it wasn't a bad job.  You can buy an insulation jacket as a "kit"
    for the approximate size and kind of water heater, so you don't end up
    making a big mess, and the resulting "marshmallow" has a vinyl outside
    rather than something messy like the backing of attic insulation batts.
    
    /Charlotte

RE: <<< Note 4751.33 by AIMHI::BOWLES >>>
                                   
    |However, I really can't understand why they would warn 
    |*against* wrapping a heater.  What possible harm can be done?
    

 The literature said wrapping it _will_ cause the thermostats for the elements 
to malfunction which could cause a fire due to electrical wiring overheating, a 
burst tank from overheated water and steam pressure or other problems related 
to scalding ones self. Their warnings on the consequences of very explosive 
hydrogen gas being generated from severely overheated water are not to be 
taken lightly either.

 They specifically stated that the 5 year warranty will be null and void if 
the tank is wrapped externally and that the manufacturer will not be liable 
for any fire or other damage resulting from wrapping the tank. The 
manufacturer is A.O. Smith.

 I figure they been in business long enough to know what they are talking 
about. :-)

    I have a question about my recently installed gas water heater.
    
    We removed the 80 gallon electric and installed a 40 gallon gas.  We
    were told that the gas recovers faster and we should have no problem
    getting 4 hot showers every morning.  By the way, with the electric
    we used to get about 3.5 before running out.
    
    Well now with the gas 40 gallon we are only getting 2 or 2.5 showers
    before it turns luke warm.
    
    We have been timing everyone and the average shower is about 7 minutes.
    We have the water heater turned up to really hot.  And we do
    occasionally burn ourselves when not paying careful attention while
    doing the dishes.  We have removed the energy efficient shower head
    because nobody liked it, but we might have to resort to using it again.
    
    Can anyone provide some insight on this?  Is this the amount of hot
    water we should be getting?  Could something in the water heater not be
    functioning properly?
    
    Judie
    

If you don't have low-flow shower heads, I'd do that first.  It's amazing how
it makes the water last longer.

Elaine

    
    Had a similar problem.  Old style shower with the two
    valves and the open shower head.  We tried the water saver but
    the restriction caused the water to leak out the valve body...
    
    Installed a Simmer (sp) type valve body and tried the water
    saver head and found out it wasnt all that bad.  The pressure
    from the head was a lot more seeing it didnt leak out at the 
    lower end.   Seems that we can run the shower for at least
    5-6 showers if its at 7min each....
    
    JD

    
     	re .37  You said nobody liked the water saver shower head.  Some 
    	of them send out painful jets of water and a constant mist that
    	makes the shower seem colder.  You should try a different brand.
    	Most of them feel just like your regular style but still save a
    	lot of water/money.
    
    					Tim
    	

>    	makes the shower seem colder.  You should try a different brand. 
>    	Most of them feel just like your regular style but still save a 
>    	lot of water/money. 
    
I've tried several different low flow shower heads and there are
definate differences in the type of spray that they produce. 

I did find one called "Good Vibrations", I think that's the name, that
produces a very nice (wide) spray pattern and force and it's rated at
3.5 GPM. 

Charly 

    We've been very happy with the WaterPic SuperSaver Shower Massage
    shower head (detachable with hose).  I recall only one time that our 50
    gallon gas water heater ran cold - I was 4th in line, and those who
    came before me took long showers.

    -- Ward

    
    re:.42
    
      The Waterpik is an excellent shower head and not expensive at all. I
    highly recommend it.
    
    					Kenny

    Another solution is to lower the cold-water intake to the shower.
    
    We always had cold showers, so I put a valve in the cold line right
    at the shower/tub. (mine had a small access door to get at the pipes.)
    Now when we want a *really* hot shower, we just shut off the cold
    entirely.
    
    This allowed us to turn the thermostat way back on the heater and
    still have hot enough water for showers, and not burn ourselves at
    the sink.
    
    Ben
    

    Could someone please explain the difference between an ON DEMAND water
    heater(as I understand, tankless), and a standard tank heater?  I'm
    seriously considering converting my electric to natural gas(I have a
    natural gas furnace).  Do the on demand units cost more to purchase,
    install, and/or operate than a standard tank? 
    
    Energynorth in Manchester, NH quoted me a rough estimate for
    installation of $200-$250 and a 40 gal direct vented tank(State Industries)
    with a 5 year warranty of $565!  Sounds a bit steep to me...any
    comments?
    
    				Thanks!
    				Donna

    I -think- that an on-demand heater actually produces a limited supply
    of hot water -as it is needed-, and usually right where it is needed.
    That is, they are typically electric and installed right under a sink.
    They might contain a very limited reserve.
    
    A -tankless- heater is somewhat different. It produces hot water for a
    household by circulating cold water through the boiler of a hot water
    heating system. There is a limited amount of hot water stored in the
    coil, and a limited amount of reserve heat in the boiler. When and if
    the reserve heat runs out, the boiler will activate.
    
    I think the decision for an on-demand is determined by a few factors,
    the most significant of which is the volume needed. You could make
    enough hot water to wash your face or do a few dishes. Probably could
    not do a load of wash or take a bath. Another factor might be the
    hassle of running hot water supply to an area that might already have a
    coldwater supply. 

    
    On demand water heaters are not to be confused with the small "under
    the sink" units for making coffee or small quantities of hot water. 
    They are tankless units, that are usually installed near the other 
    untilities (furnace etc). The most popular these days are gas units.
    They have a very efficient burn chamber which ignites when there is
    a pressure drop in the hot water pipes (i.e. someone turns on a faucet)
    and heats the water as it passes through a series of coils. 
    
    Current units are capable of heating an unlimited amount of water with
    little or no temperature drop. Whole houses run on them these days, and 
    some are also installed as seperate units to supply hot water to large
    tubs and such.
    
    								- Mac
                  

    
    	For a point of info, we recently converted from a 40gal electric
    water heater to an oil fired boiler with a tankless heater.
    
    	There is less hot water pressure.  The flow through the tankless
    	  is less than with the storage tank.
    
    	The hot water temp fluctuates a little.  Depending if the boiler
    	  is at its high or low setpoint, I can notice a difference in 
    	  the water temp.  It is not a problem for showers, just noticible.
    
    	There is an unlimited supply of HW.
    
    All told, we are still debating whether to add a storage tank to the 
    tankless.  The higher flow would be nice, but I'm not sure it is worth
    the extra $6-900.
    
    
    	[All opinions expressed herein are not binding on the author]
    
    		Dan Field

    So now in 1994, would you buy a reehm, sears or aosmith?
    
    -jon
    

    Hmm.  Hard to say which is the right subject for this, but...
    
    I live in Nashua (NH, USA) and heat with oil (FHA furnace) and electricity
    (water).
    
    I got a letter in the mail sometime in the last two weeks (been on
    vacation) from Wilkins Mechanical Services, Inc. saying that they had a
    special deal with the gas company and are offering (for the first 122
    takers) free up to 80 feet of gas service line installation and a free
    gas water heater, and a "special discount price" on a new furnace.
    
    I was 1/2 thinking about converting anyway, so I gave them a call. 
    Someone is coming out Wednesday.  I'm sure there is a catch, and I
    presume that either they charge outlandishly for the installation or
    for the "special discount" furnace.
    
    Has anyone else heard of this deal?  Has anyone converted recently so I
    could get even a ballpark idea of how much an installation costs.  Does
    Energy North (gas company) normally charge for running the line in from
    their main...i.e. is this really a special deal?
    
    Thanks!
    
    Burns
    

>     special deal ... are offering (for the first 122 takers) free ...
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^

	these should all be red flags.  first and foremost call energy
	north directly and ask them if they are involved.  if they
	say "no", and they don't appear to be interested in pursuing
	it, then call the State's Attorney Generals office.  If it
	is a fraud/rip-off, then it should be stopped.  If not, then ...

> Has anyone else heard of this deal?  Has anyone converted recently so I
> could get even a ballpark idea of how much an installation costs.  Does
> Energy North (gas company) normally charge for running the line in from
> their main...i.e. is this really a special deal?

	Energy North does not normally charge to put in the line (up
	to/within so many feet of the corner of the house), and the
	manifold (they will charge you if you don't turn on the service
	within so many months or years).  You normally have to pay
	them or a plumber to run the line from the manifold to the
	appliances.

	Now if you are converting from another fuel source, Energy North
	also every year runs promotions that I believe may include some/all
	of the inside work *if* you *rent* the water heater and/or
	burner from them.

	Call the gas company to find out!

>	these should all be red flags.

They were, which is why I asked...

Thanks,

Burns

>>	these should all be red flags.
> They were, which is why I asked...

	but have you asked where you should of asked yet?  ie. what
	did energy north say?

Just to let you know what I found:

Energy North does normally run up to 80 feet of service to within 5 feet of the
nearest corner for free.  BTW, that does not mean they stop 5 feet away and you
have to dig the rest as I first assumed.  It means that they will go 80 feet
from their main or to the closest part of the house whichever is shorter. 
However they will run along the house for up to 5 feet to get the spot you want.

In addition, they "rent" a 50-gal water heater for $15/month (including
installation); it's yours after 5 years.  That's $900.  Doesn't sound like a
great deal, though if you include the installation, it may be.

However, they *are* running some joint marketing program with Wilkins Mechanical
Services.

So it sounds like WMS is not totally off the edge.  I read the text again, and
it does not say that the Energy North installation is a special thing.

We'll probably listen (skeptically) at least.

Burns