Conference 7.286::home_work

>     In Massachusetts, can I install a GFCI protected outlet near my
> bathroom sink?

	Yes. New wiring requires all bathroom outlets to be GFCI protected
	and it's a good idea to install it if you don't already have it.

>     Can I install a switch to control the medicine cabinet lights in the 
> same junction box as the aforementioned outlet?

	Yes, provided the box that the GFCI and switch are mounted in are 
	large enough according to code. GFCIs are pretty big and you will
	have at least 5 wires going through the box. Also, the cutout in the
	cover plate is a large rectangle. I have not seen any cover plates
	designed for a GFCI and a switch on the same panel. You may have to
	modify your own.

	Most, if not all, GFCI outlets have an extra hot wire which can be
	connected to other outlets downstream and protect them also. You
	could power the light which from this lead.

>     Does anyone happen to know if, in the town of Arlington, I can do 
> this myself, or must I hire an electrician?

	In general, wiring, switches, etc. that are replaced do not need
	to be inspected, and Massachusetts does not require the work be done
	by a licensed electrician. Cities and towns sometimes have their
	own code which you must follow. Perhaps someone who lives in Arlington
	can answer this?

Larry

>    	In the state of MA all switches and outlets within 2' (or maybe
>    3') must be GFCI protected.
    
    I don't know specifically about Mass laws, but quoting from Richter's:
    
    "The Code in Sec. 210-8 requires GFCI protection for all 15- and
    20-amp receptacles:  in residential bathrooms; over counters within
    6 ft. of the kitchen sink; outdoors; in garages, except where not
    accessible (as for a garage door operator) or for appliances in
    dedicated space (as for a freezer); in electrically wired detached
    garages; at least one in the basement; in all boathouses; in bath-
    rooms of hotel and motel guest quarters; and for temporary receptacles
    used during building construction.  Some swimming pool installations
    ... also require GFCI protection.  See Art. 680 of the Code."

>        Take the power feed into the room and run it first to the LOAD side
>    of the GFCI.  Then run the next outlet or switch off of the LINE
>    side of the GFCI.  All outlets and switches down stream of the LINE
>    side of the GFCI will then be protected.
    
    Umm, don't you have LINE and LOAD reversed in the above??  LINE
    refers to the GFCI's supply, while LOAD refers to the other protected
    receptacles.
    
    Jim

    RE .3
    
    	Yes, I did get LOAD and LINE mixed up in my explanation of .2.
    My efforts to correct it lead to deleting the note.  I got so 
    concerned that last night I checked the the GFCI I installed 
    last weekend!
    	With existing construction you should first check the extent
    of the GFCI protection you can possibly have.  Power down the circuit
    and disconnect the outlet.  Turn the circuit back on being careful
    with the loose wires.  All the lights and outlets that are down
    stream of the outlet you disconnected will be off.  If you want
    to include them in the GFCI protection connect the power in 
    to the LINE side of the GFCI and the down stream line to the LOAD
    side.  If you only want that particular outlet to be GFCI don't
    use the LOAD side of the outlet.
    	In new bathroom construction it is a good idea to protect the
    entire circuit, lights, outlets, switches and fans.  Run the power
    to the bathroom first to the GFCI and take the power out of the
    LOAD side of the GFCI.   
    	I would use a double box with an extension on it for a switch
    and a GFCI outlet.  GFCI's are big and take up a lot of room.
                                                                
    					=Ralph=

Somerville Lumber (the westboro store) now has a selection of cover plates
for a combination of GFCI with several other switch/outlet types.  A few
years ago that type of plate was impossible to find.

	--Dave V.

    
    Grossman has sale on GFCI for arround $12 now. I just picked 2 up
    last night.

     It occurred to me that a hair dryer and heat lamp would overload the 
15A circuit that feeds the bathroom and the rest of the second floor.  So 
I'm going to extend an unused 20A circuit in the basement up to the 
bathroom, by running the wire up to the attic parallel to the chimney. 
During my preparatory work (carving up the inside of the kitchen
broomcloset) I've made the observation that nowhere does wood appear to
touch the chimney.  Are there any restrictions about clearance between
wiring and the chimney?  If so, I've got to figure out a different way to
get the wires from the basement to the attic.  (I'm also curious about 
chimney/wood clearance requirements, but thats another issue.)

    	Don't forget that if you do indeed place the "lights" on the
    GFI ..... If and when you blow the GFI, you will be in the DARK.....

I know this was discussed before but alas, I can't find the note in the
keywords under bathroom OR electrical.

What is the latest opinions about switches in bathrooms in Mass?  My house has
a 1/2 bath with a switch on the inside while the full baths have switches on
the outside.  Does the code simply say that all full baths have to have
switches on the outside or is it based on the distance to the tub?  I'm putting
in a very large master bath with a whirlpool and between the switch for that,
one for a vent fan and still another for lighting, that would mean a 3-ganged
switch outside the bathroom, making a VERY long walk from the switch to the
tub. Furthermore, if I decide to opt for a heat lamp, that would make for 4
switches. 

In another bathroom I want to install another vent fan.  The outside wall
to that bathroom already has a switch for the bathroom ganged to one for the
hallway.  Adding the fan switch would make that a three-way switch.

Do all these switches have to be outside the bathroom?  Can one put them inside
on a ground fault circuit if they are a minimal distance from a sink or tub? 

-mark

    As I recall the discussion and the code
    
    	 All recepticle outlets in bathrooms must be GFCI protected
    
    Thats it.  The lihgt switches can be inside, and the lights and
    fan don't have to have CFCI protection.  Of course, ifthey are on
    the same circuit, you may as well give them GFCI protection.
                                                      
    This tallies with what was done in my (1980) house:  all the outlets
    in both baths and the half bath, as well as the outlets on the deck,
    are protected by the same GFCI outlet.  The fan and light switches
    are on sundry other circuits, and are all inside.
    
    If I were wiring a hot tub, I'll pull a permit.  So if I were you,
    I'ld talk to my local inspector.
    
        Andrew
    
    

    
    Mark,
    	I second .1's opinion that you can have inside switches as long
    as they are GFI protected.  I just had my final electrical sign
    off and my bathroom has two separate outlets and two switches
    on the inside, within a couple of feet of the plumbing.  I put the
    bathroom on its own 20 amp circuit and wired *everything* GFI. 
    I know some people don't like the idea of the lights going out when
    the GFI trips, but I wanted the added safety, and besides the
    electrical inspector loved it.
    	On a related topic, the electrical inspector warned my about
    some bad GFI on the market.  It seems that some of the cheap ones
    are not doing the job properly.  They will trip when you push in
    the test button, but the inspector actually shorted from hot to
    the metal faucet just to make sure.  I don't know how true the info
    is, I just thought I'd pass it along.
    
    					=Ralph=

Massachusetts code used to prohibit switches in bathrooms, but that restriction 
was removed several years ago. 

Consider timers for such things as fans and heat lamps.  There are several 
kinds of timers available that you install in place of single-pole switches. 

    I asked the inspector about this when he did my rough inspection,
    and he said that it was never a code requirement, that is was sort
    of a phase that contractors went through for a while.  Whatever
    the reason, he made it clear that there is no requirement either
    way these days.  The existing house had them outside, and the bath
    in the addition has them inside, and he signed it off no problem.
    
    -reed
    

I am trying to reconnect a bathroom heater/light/vent unit (Nutone) to
three single-pole switches.  A previous tenant removed the switches
from the box and I haven't been able to figure out which wire goes to
which switch.  Here's the setup: 

Electrical Box:                   Switches:
                                  (three single-pole)
    
Light/Vent 1    2  Vent/Heater     
           WB   WB 
           ||   ||
         +-||---||-+                A  ---o   o--- B     Light
         | ||   || |
         |         |                A  ---o   o--- B     Vent
         |         | 
         | ||      |                A  ---o   o--- B     Heater
         +-||------+  
           ||
           WB
           3    
           Line

W and B represent thw white and black wires, repectively.

When I connect #3 to #2 (W to W, B to B), the vent and heater are
fully on. 
When I connect #3 to #1 (W to W, B to B), the vent and light are 
partially on, that is, the vent runs slow and the light is dim.

Is it possible to solve this from the information given? Or has anyone
out there perhaps installed one of these in the recent past and happen
to have saved the wiring diagram? I spent hours yesterday trying to
figure it out. Help! 

Jason

> Is it possible to solve this from the information given? 
    
    No - not for me, anyway.  
    
    I assume that your left-hand diagram shows the three pairs of
    conductors coming into the switch box, and the manner in which those
    pairs of conductors are labelled.  What I need to see is the internal
    wiring of the unit itself.
    
    But if there are four conductors going from the switch box to the unit,
    the obvious approach would be three switched hot wires and one common
    wire:
    
    
                       +---(light sw)---------------------(light)----+
          hot          |                                             |
    line --------------+---(vent sw)----------------------(vent)-----+
         ----------+   |                                             |
          common   |   +---(heater sw)--------------------(heater)---+
                   |                                                 |
                   |                                                 |
                   +-------------------------------------------------+
    
    The labels "light/vent" and "vent/heater" suggest that it isn't this
    simple, though.

    Thanks for the info. I was hoping to avoid it, but I guess I'll have
    to take the fixture out of the ceiling and examine its internal wiring.
    
    

    
    Try calling Nutone or going to a place that sells similar equipment
    and looking at the instructions that come with the unit.  I know
    Spag's sells these switches.  Maybe they come with a wiring diagram.

Thank you .1, for the wiring diagram.  Using that as a starting point,
I found out that line #2, labeled Vent/Heater was in fact for the
heater only.  The 2W conductor was a common.  So the solution was: 

       1B to  VB
       1W to  LB
       2B to  HB
       2W to  3W
       3B to  LA, VA, and HA

Now if I could only sell the house as easily as that problem was
solved I'd be in good shape.  But that's another note.

Jason

    We've had a master bathroom w/o a fan since we've moved into
    our house and after cleaning mildew off the ceiling and wall 
    every month or two, I decided to install a fan/light combination.
    
    The "project" took the better part of a day to cut out the old unit
    install the new, along w/ venting it out the soffet.
    
    The unit worked well for a week... until yesterday, the lights went
    out in the bathroom while taking a shower.
    
    I suspected that the ground fault breaker tripped and it did!
    (I was able to re-set the breaker.)
    
    Last night ...long shower, lots of steam, everything was o.k. 
    
    This morning another shower ... the breaker tripped again.
    
    A couple of facts that affect this problem:
    
    1. The fan/light combo. is directly over the shower.
    
    2. The vent/duct runs over the attic insulation about 3ft.
       (horizontally) to the soffet w/ 4" stainless expandable hose
       and is capped w/ a screen at the outlet.
    
    3. The temperature outside has been 10-20  degrees or less and the
       attic is unheated.
    
    4. I talked to the mfgr's rep. and he is sending me another motor
       to try.   
    
       
    I've read most of the notes on venting and fan/light installation
    and none seem to have had this type of problem.
    
    Any suggestions to troubleshoot/fix this problem?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Jack 

    The next time the breaker trips, examine the connections to the
    fan.  See if any have moisture on them, perhaps that is providing
    a path for leakage current.  Otherwise I'd suspect the motor has
    defective insulation on the windings or connecting wires.

    I am amazed they haven't write locked you  yet so I'll squeeze my
    ideas in real quickly.
    
    I had a similar problem recently and taking the GFI receptacle out
    and re-doing the connections on the receptacle and the switch as
    well seems to have corrected this problem. Also make sure no outside
    outlets on this same circuit are causing this problem.

                                              

    
    My electrician told me that no lights or fans should be on a GFI
    line only duplex receptacles. Anybody else hear this?
                                                             Bill

RE: .3

	I can't say that I have heard this, but for the wall plugs in
a bathroom it must be GFI protected. All other typical fixtures like
lights do not require gfi protection. Whirlpools and spas need GFI too.

     Bill

    
    All 4 of my bathrooms (2 for us and 2 for my tenents) are wired
    so everything is a GFI. The GFI is in the breaker box. This includes
    lights and fans and outlets. The house is 5 years old, and it was
    wired that way by the contractor.
    
    Mike

    .3, .4, .5:
    
    Well, isn't it true that (in most cases, at least), outlets and ceiling
    fixtures go on seperate circuits?  I gather that this is (in part) so
    you shouldn't have to worry about breaking a leg tripping over the
    furniture, when you head out to reset the tripped circuit breaker.
    
    Dick

    HI!
    
    ELECTRICAL OUTLET IN MY BASEMENT AND TWO BATHROOMS IS NOT WORKING.
    I HAVE CIRCUIT BREAKER BOX IN THE BASEMENT. I THOUGHT CIRCUIT BREAKER
    MAY HAVE TRIPPED, SO FLIP THE CIRCUIT BREAKER BUT THOSE OUTLETS
    ARE STILL NOT WORKING. HOW DO I FIX IT?? WHAT I HAVE TO DO?? I CAN
    DO IT OR I HAVE TO CALL THE ELECTRICIAN WHICH WILL COST ME THE BUNDLE.
    IF I HAVE TO CALL ELECTRICIAN ANY RECOMMENDATION IN NASHUA AREA??
    ANY HELP APPRECIATED.
    
    BHARAT S. SHAH

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Although I've seen a few references to them, I couldn't find a note dedicated
to installing a timer instead of a switch on a bathroom fan.

I'm having a bathroom replaced, and thought a timer would be perfect:  you
could leave the fan running for awhile after your shower, and it would shut
itself off after venting the steam from the room.  Has anyone installed one
and come across problems?  Would you do it again?

Also, how about a source for such a switch?

My present plans are to install the timer in the same box as a regular single
pole switch for a light within the shower.  Does the NEC say anything about
such combinations, other than the expected "Don't jam too much into too small
a box!"?

Any feedback or advise would be appreciated.

Jim

Most any place that sells bathroom vent fans will have timer switches that
mount in standard electrical boxes.  Nutone and Broan should both have them.
Note that these are standard in many hotel bathrooms.

You probably won't be able to find one that can share a single-box with
another switch, though - you'd need a double-gang box.  Perhaps you can cut
out the old box and install an "old-work" double-gang box.

				Steve

re .1:

Yes, I was planning on having it installed into at least a double-gang box.
I didn't know if the NEC mentioned anything about reducing the number of
wire-nuts or incoming cables into such a box if a timer was present.

This is all new wiring, so there's no need to cut out old boxes, etc.

Jim

I don't recall seeing anything in the NEC about timers, specifically.  They're
no bigger than some kinds of regular switches or outlets.

			Steve

The only thing in the NEC book is cubic-inches.  The timer is going to take up
more than a normal switch.  Someplace there are spec's on allowances for cubic
inches for each type of device.  If the timer takes up more than the allowance
there could be a problem.  A two-gang box will just make getting a plate cover
harder.  You may want a deep box however.

Brian

Argh, I forgot about the cover plate.  You'll never find a two-gang plate that
works with the timer (at least I've never seen one).  Maybe you should look
into installing a second single-gang box for the timer.

			Steve

Can't you just use a wooden two-gang cover plate that you carve to meet the
requirements of the timer?  

   Gary

Yes carving a wood plate cover is possible.  What you have left is a two gang
plate cover with only one side used (does not look good, IMO) and a plate cover
without any "numbers" on how to set the timer (which are on the plate cover
that comes with the timer), confuses guests.

Brian

    
    There are spring wound timers you can get that fit right into the
    existing switch box. They were used in appartement washrooms to shut
    off lights autmatically. They can be set for up to an hour, and the
    cover is brushed aluminum.
    
    approx $10.00 a piece, at Marlboro Electrical Outlet.
    
    Dave'
    

Thanks for the replies so far, but I can't believe one comment:

.5>  You'll never find a two-gang plate that
.5>  works with the timer (at least I've never seen one).

What's so unusual about wanting to put a switch and a timer together for a
bathroom light/fan combo?  Someone's got to have thought of this, considering
the number of light/fan units sold as well as the other combinations of cover
plates that are available.

If anyone knows of a supplier for such a cover plate (timer/switch), please
post it here.  I'm thinking of giving Mass. Gas and Electric a call this
weekend.

Jim

    I have to agree with the group that says you won't find the plate; in
    my bathroom I have a two gang receptacle for the light and whirlpool
    timer.  I looked everywhere for a plate with a switch on one side an
    timer "hole" on the other.  Finally gave up an used a wood plate and
    glued the timer plate on top, so I would know how long I was soakin'
    
    Jonathan

    I just installed a fan in one of our bathrooms a couple weeks ago.  For
    a long time I pondered whether to use just a switch or a timer.  I
    decided to use a switch... because the timers were expensive ($29.00)
    and made noise (they were spring wound).  Now I am glad I made the
    choice I did... because there doesn't appear to be any need for the fan
    to continue running after showering.  No fog/steam builds up, and no
    need to let it run.  
    
    So, a $2.00 switch did the job.
    
    By the way... I was at Somerville to get the fan.  They had plates to
    cover timer/outlet combinations.
    
    tony

>    By the way... I was at Somerville to get the fan.  They had plates to
>    cover timer/outlet combinations.

Timer/outlet, or timer/switch?  I need the latter.

I know they exist.  I walked into the Littleton town house the other day, and
guess what's mounted just inside the front door?

We are about to remodel our bathroom, and yours truly is the electrical
subcontractor. Yes, I will be getting a permit, have done this, legally
with permit, before.

However, I'm trying to figure out exactly what are the MA code requirements for
a bathroom with a tub/shower (not a whirlpool). Anybody know? I know that I 
need a GFI outlet, with anything else downstream. Are lights over the shower
required? What kind?  What about location of other lights, switches, etc?

(If I can't find out here, I'll go to the library and try to decipher
the NEC.)

Thanks.

Steve

    Given that you're getting a permit, talk to your town wire-inspector. 
    Ours (Chelmsford) was very helpful when I was re-wiring our house
    recently.  Also, he's the one who will eventually have to interpret the
    code when he inspects the job, so it can't hurt to have him interpret
    it for you ahead of time.
    
    John

    
    I did the bath over myself.  In the process, I added new wiring.
    To play safe, everything went on 20a wire and a GFI.
    
    JD
    

    Steve, recently heard on a TOH that Mass requires an exhaust fan in
    bathrooms, regardless if a window is present or not.  That's the only
    time I've heard it, and if it's true, I'm not sure it applies to
    remodeling or not.  Better check it out.
    
    Lee

    I just put on an addition on which removed the window from a 1/2 bath
    on the first floor. The bad news is that Mass. does require a bathroom
    vent for one with no window. The good news is that it does NOT need to
    be vented outside. It can have a charcoal filter (like a non-vented
    range hood) and circulate the air back into the room. It is supposed to
    be on the same switch as the light, so it will be on at all times the
    light is on, but an electrician friend says they do that just to pass
    the inspection, and then put it on it's own switch. I was going to have
    a real hard time running the vent hose until he said a non-vented one
    would pass code. 
    
    Larry

    What purpose does a nonvented fan serve in a bathroom?  I thought the
    whole purpose of the fan was to vent moisture laden air outside.

    By crawling around in my attic, I noted that my bathroom fans are
    ducted on the the return plenums for my FHA system.  My house was
    built in MA about 7 years ago.
    
    Works for me.  Now I get to keep the humidity in the house 
    since there is no humdifier on that zone of my HVAC system.   ;-)
    
    	Dave.

    Re: .5
    
    The bath which now has the non-ducted vent fan is a 1/2 bath, with no
    shower or tub. It was actually an electrician who recommended it and I did
    not ask him if you could use a non-vented fan in a full bath, also.
    
    Larry

Re: .*

Well, I spent some time in the library with an annotated copy of
the National Electrical Code, and all I could find specific to a
bathroom was that there has to be a GFI protected outlet (or outlet 
downstream from a GFI breaker) near the sink.  There are additional 
restrictions if you have a whirlpool.

Then I talked to one of the city (Newton) electrical inspectors, and he
told me I needed the GFI outlet, a light with a switch near the entrance,
and a vent fan. But I believe the vent fan requirement and light are
technically part of the general building code, rather than the electrical 
code.

The bad news is that they refused to give me, the unlicensed homeowner,
a permit, stating that it is illegal according to state law and that they 
no longer will overlook it. Damn!!

Steve

>>The bad news is that they refused to give me, the unlicensed homeowner,
>>a permit, stating that it is illegal according to state law and that they 
>>no longer will overlook it. Damn!!

A permit for the entire bathroom remodel or for the electrical portion of 
the remodel?

I don't think this was mentioned but I assume you live in MA.

bjm

    
    
    .....Permit, smermit!  all their after is the money!!!!
    And since when is the home owner not allowed to do his electrical
    work..  I know the plumbing part your "not supposed too".
    
    I'd worry more about doing it right then getting a permit!
    
    

re: doing you'r own electrical work

I've just started looking into doing some of my own electical work...  But
getting in touch with town officials is impossible.  I've tried for over 2
weeks (I live in Charlton, MA).  I finally called the [non-emergency number]
fire department - who told me - that's it's perfectly legal in Mass for 
homeowners to do their own wiring...  But just before it's covered up, it
has to be inspected by the local electrical inspector.

(Now if only I could get in touch with the inspector).

Dan

RRe: .9

They refused to issue an electrical permit.  They did issue the general
permit, on which I listed the general contractor, who has a MA license.
I'm willing to pay the fees ($83.70 for a general permit for $4500) and go
through the inconvenience to make sure everything is done ok, for liability 
purposes, and eventual resale of the house.  So, in this case, I now have a 
licensed electrician doing it.

But I'm p.o'd.  In addition to costing me a bunch more money, by refusing
to issue permits to homeowners they drive the homeowner to do it without
the permit, which means without the safety inspection I feel is important
for both current and future residents of the property.

Assinine.

Steve

    
    
    
    ...Your tax dollars hard at work!  Dosnt it make you feel good!!!
    
    

    I seem to recall either hearing or reading that the 1993 MA code now 
    prohibits non-licensed persons from doing any wiring. So electrical is
    now treated the same as plumbing.
    
    Roger
    

    RE: .14
    Grumble, how do they get these things through?
    
    And I'll repeat a question that I've asked before, what does it take
    to become a licenced electrician?
    
    	Dave.

>>    Grumble, how do they get these things through?

The unions lobby (IMO).  IBEW (intern. brotherhood of Elec Workers) most likely
lobbied hard for the change.  Several years ago a licensed electrician (union or
not) could only pull a permit only if they had either proof for liability 
insurance for the work or a signed release from the owner of the property
where the work was going to be done.  This insurance was not cheap.

>>    And I'll repeat a question that I've asked before, what does it take
>>    to become a licensed electrician?

Apprentiship (sp?) for, I think three years working under a master electrian, 
taking a course cuts 1 year off of that.

I am doing ALL the work (plumbing, heating and electrical) as I complete the
second floor of my NH house.  Saving mega $$$$ - I would not even be able to
change a washer if I was still in MA.

Brian J.

    
    
    .....And just think.  All thoes modular homes that come
    for out of state with everything wired and plumbed.  Who
    was the person that did the work?  Some "Joe Average" on
    the assembly line.....
    
    JD

Hi,

Modular home builders usually have licensed electrician(s) working on the
production line floor. At least all of the ones I've dealt with have had 
them on the staff(I field wire modulars on occasion) ....but there are probably
exceptions where the "apprentices" do all of the work under the "guidance"
of the resident Master. 

  BTW, a few towns in New Hampshire have gone over to not letting homeowners
do their own wiring. I called the N.H. state electrical board about it. They 
stated that in N.H. its up to the town to decide if homeowners can or cannot 
pull permits. (The N.H. electrical board had a list of the N.H. towns that 
don't allow do it yourself permits if anybody is interested). 


RE: a couple notes back, "what does it take to get a license" 

In NH:

It takes 4 yrs working FULL TIME (4 X 2000 hrs) under a Master electrician who 
documents your time, plus X hours( I forget the exact amount of time,400 hours?)
of schooling at a trade school like the NH Vocational Technical trade school 
system or equiv union trade school etc.

Once the above is complete you can apply to take the journeymans test. 

Masters license is aquired with more on the job time before applying to take
the Masters test. (it used to be one year plus a journeyman license...
not sure what it is today).

To continue to renew your license, Master or Journeyman, you need 15 hours
certified NEC training every 3 years. Basically every time the code changes. 

In NH, Master electrician license is needed to pull permits if you are an 
electrician...Journeyman license is not sufficient.

The above info may be out of date a little. The requirements will not be less 
than the ones I listed above....

Around New England licensing is pretty easy, 1 license per state. Elsewhere in 
the country they have State, County, City licenses. Really makes life difficult
if you have to work over a large area.  
 
 
Well, thats enough long windedness for today :')

later

Paul
	 

    RE: .18 
    ..hmmm...
    
    Well a trip to the library found me the section of the Mass. General Laws
    covering Electrical Licensing and the homeowner exclusion.  Now I have
    to see if and when it was changed.   (Chap 141, Section 1, note 7)
    
    Also according to the "laws" MA Electrical License examinations are held
    regularly and public notices must be made.   I'll have to get in touch
    with the administrators to find out any "fine print" on requirements to 
    take it.
    
    You are right that just being licensed isn't even enough anymore, to 
    pull a permit.  You must also be insured.
    
    	Dave.

I seem to recall that while the ban against amateur plumbers is statewide
in Mass, the ban against amateur electricians is local.  This may have changed.

    I talked to a contractor a few days ago. His understanding is that
    a statewide requirement was proposed (only licensed electricians
    to do wiring) but hasn't passed yet, and in the meantime it's up
    to the discretion of the local wiring inspector; if he wants to
    allow homeowner wiring he can, if he doesn't, he can deny permission.
    

    RE: .21
    Well that may explain why I cannot find a trace of it in the books yet.
    Actually, it may not be law so much as it was a State Attorney's
    General opinion at one time.
    
    RE: Mass Electricians Licencing Requirements:
    ...hmmm left my notes it the car.... oh well. as memory serves me:
    
    They are clearly spelled out in the CMR (Commonwealth of Mass. Regulations)
    Sect 137 (?).  There is a requirement for educational courses (stated
    rather awkwardly in clock hours) and years of experience as a learner
    or apprentice.   Sort of prevents anyone from doing it part time.
    
    I was plesantly surprised to find that the Mass law books were
    availible and rather easy to access in my local public libraries.
    
    	Dave.

    
    I thinking of putting a phone in my bathroom. I got the idea when I 
    recently stayed in a hotel that had one. Does anyone know if this 
    violates any code or has any restrictions? I live in Mass. 
    
    FYI: Looking in replys to notes after doing a dir/title="phone" did not
         give me anything I could use. 
    
    
                  Thanks in advance,
    
    
    
    
    
    /Bob    

    My parents' previous house had a phone in the bathroom when they bought
    it.  The previous owner was a doctor, and had a phone EVERYWHERE - must
    have had 20 phones in there!  My father took the bathroom one out.  I
    don't know if he thought it was a safety hazard or simply didn't need
    anywhere near that many phones (removed all but two of them I think). 
    I don't know if it would be legal in Massachusetts - my folks live in
    Indiana.  You might need a special phone or grounded jack.  Definitely
    find out before you bother installing it.  
    
    /Charlotte

Of course, I'm the type of person that firmly believes there is nothing in the
world so important that it can't wait for me to finish taking a dump.

Phones are low voltage - they can be installed in a bathroom with no
additional restrictions (though you'd probably want to keep it away from
the bathtub or sink.)

I would never want a phone in the bathroom, myself.

				Steve

    A friend of mine recently built a house in MA with a phone jack in the
    bathroom.  So, at least a few years ago code didn't have a problem with
    it.
    
    -dana

    
    I remember seeing a commercial a long time ago from the phone company that
    strongly suggested a phone line in the bathroom for safety reasons. The
    example in the commercial was a woman who left her baby in the bathtub
    while she went into another room to answer the phone (not a smart thing to 
    do in any case) the assumption is that the baby drowned. 
    
    I could also see it as a good thing for elderly people to have in case
    of a fall. They could call for help without dragging themselves into
    another room and complicating injuries. 
    
    In other cases it could be just a convenience, you're expecting a VERY
    IMPORTANT phone call but you have to go SOOO BAAAAD and you just can't
    wait. Just don't flush with the other person on the line, it's not
    polite ;-).
    
    Steve B. 

>    I could also see it as a good thing for elderly people to have in case
>    of a fall. They could call for help without dragging themselves into
>    another room and complicating injuries. 
    
    Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!!
    
    (Sorry....couldn't resist....)

    The only code (ethical) problem (restriction) for having a phone in the
    Bathroom is it MUST BE a princess model (because you will be using it
    while on the throne :*) :*)

With cordless phones, I don't see much need for a dedicated phone in
the bathroom.

    I put one in the upstairs bathroom (pre-cordless days), out of
    convenience, especially when the little ones were getting their baths.
    It's a wall-mount, next to the throne.  It _is_ convenient, except for
    the time my wife knocked it off the receiver and into the toilet. 
    Naturally, she didn't tell me and just hung it back up.  Well, you
    guessed it...I was on the throne, and for once, the phone call was for
    me.  After an earful of water........
    

    Actually, having a phone in the bathroom gives you a whole new option
    for handling telemarketeers...
    
    -Randy

	    I don't think phones hold up so well under high humidity.  It's
	probably not a good idea to install one in a full bath.  This according
	to a friend who works for Ma Bell.

					Tim

 > 	    I don't think phones hold up so well under high humidity.  It's
 > 	probably not a good idea to install one in a full bath. 
    
    Yeah, at least run the water out first.

    Remember, we techno-nerds can listen to your cordless calls.  This
    alone, to me, is reason enough to have a dedicated jack.
    
    

>>    Remember, we techno-nerds can listen to your cordless calls.  This

But isn't that against the law now?  Like listening to cellular phone calls?  I
thought the law was changed from something about 'its ok as long as you don't
act on what you hear' to 'you just can't do that'.

Newer scanners have blocked out the cellular phone frequencies (but of course
there are ways around that).

bjm

The newer cordless phones have scrambling to prevent eavesdropping by
nosy technoweenies. 
Margaret.

> The newer cordless phones have scrambling to prevent eavesdropping by
> nosy technoweenies. 

	But elsewhere in this conference someone indicated that the
	technique used to scramble is simply to invert the signal,
	and hence a real techoweenie can just invert it again with
	their equipment.

	Of course real technoweenies can evesdrop just by picking the
	RF emmenating from the telephone wire strung throughout your
	house using a Van parked outside and a coat hanger and other
	inexpensive tecnoweenie goodies. :-)

    When I built my house several years ago I installed jacks all over the
    house.  
    
    I have a phone in all the bathrooms and have no problems yet.  I've
    found that even with a portable in the house you don't always drag it
    around with you.
    
    Cal

Some portables now have real scrambling.  They cost extra.
Margaret.

    ...Cinncinati Microwave sells a cordless phone that does spread
    spectrum.   Try receiving that with your inverter and coat hanger. ;-)
    
    	Dave.

    I have a similar unit to the one described in .0 but it is a
    Light/Fan/Nightlight unit.  I also wish to use three single pole
    switches to do this.  My question is what type of switches to use,
    single pole?  What is the proper way to power all three from a common
    feed?  My understanding was that you should only have one conductor per
    terminal.  Is the correct way to pigtail three conductors off of the feed
    to the switch box?  
    
    Brian 

Feed -> wire-nut with three short wires coming off (total of four wires to
wire nut)

	One to fan switch
	one to light switch
	one to nightlight switch

It is against code to use the screw terminals as junctions - you can not use
the 'back-stab' and the screw terminals to do this either.

    That's what I thought.  I also came up with the slighlty less than
    brilliant idea of using the terminal and the quick connector on the
    back but thought I'd ask first.  Thanks for the confirmation!  
    
    Brian

    What I've found a lot of in my current house (built ca. 1987) is the
    feed is looped through the screws; in other words, small sections of
    insulation were removed from the incoming feed wire, and these bare
    sections were looped around the terminal screws. 
    
    I have no idea if this is legal, though I do recall some mention of
    doing this for wires in conduit that run through a box in my "wiring
    simplified" book.. 
    
    I think my NEC is lost.. I guess it's time to buy a new one.. Gotta
    stop loaning that out..
    
    ...tom

>>    I have no idea if this is legal, though I do recall some mention of

Don't think so.  I think it has something to do with the ability to remove a
device (switch in this case) without effecting any other portions of the
circut.  

In the striped off case, you would have to cut and wire nut the wires - or put
electrical tape on it if the switch was removed.  

I have also seen that done but more often have I seen the stab/screw "splice"
used.

Brian

> It is against code to use the screw terminals as junctions - you can not use

    So... it's against code to use the pair of screws on outlets to
    feed the outlet and then the next device down the line?

    I can see the problem and issue with two wires under one screw,
    but 99% of the installations I've seen, use the pair of outlet
    screws as described above.

    Charly

>>    So... it's against code to use the pair of screws on outlets to
>>    feed the outlet and then the next device down the line?

another clause - "unless specificly intended".  Or something like that.  It was
described to me many years ago - and I don't think its changed.  Feed-though 
outlets are designed to do this.  The little tab can be broken off to break the
connection between the two terminals.

I've seen both screws AND the stab-connector on an receptical used as a 
splice - that's a no-go.  

bjm

    I'm in the process of doing some electrical work on my new bathroom.
    Does anyone have any experience wiring for a whirlpool tub? I did a 
    search in the whirlpool/hot tub note and found nothing specifically
    about the wiring.  I'm interested in knowing if there should be any 
    GFCI concerns, emergency switches, etc. 
    
    Also, I'm installing a light in the shower that is made for this
    purpose (rubber seal, and so forth).  Should this light be on a GFCI
    circuit?
    
    I appreciate any help on these two questions.   
    
    Thanks, Chip
    

    most definitely both should be on GFCI circuits....when my whirlpool
    was installed, the electrician put the whirlpool on it's own separate
    GFCI circuit at the panel. Also, the on/off/timer switch for the
    whirlpool was positioned in the bathroom so that it could not be
    used while you are standing in the whirlpool....

I don't think the recessed lights in showers need to be GFCI protected.  The
ceiling would have to fall for the unit to come in contact with you.  But I
don't have a code book in front of me.

Yes to the Whirlpool though.

bjm

I agree - in fact, the light should not be on a GFCI.  The whirlpool's
installation instructions should be very clear as to the wiring requirements.
These will include GFCI protection and a grounding wire to a copper water
pipe.

				Steve

    Thanks for the tips thus far.  Unfortunately, I bought the whirlpool
    tub used so I don't have instructions.  Any other requirements that 
    you can think of would be appreciated.  Thanks!

> I agree - in fact, the light should not be on a GFCI.

	Why?

    Re .94:
    
    How about the obvious - if you can determine who manufactured the
    whirlpool tub, call THEM and ask for specifics.  You should be
    able to get a copy of the installation instructions.  You could
    also try asking the electrical inspector - he'd know the local
    interpretation of the N.E.C. as it applies to the tubs.
    
    I'd go that route first rather than depending on the well-meant
    (but possibly incomplete) information you get in this conference.

> > I agree - in fact, the light should not be on a GFCI.
>	Why?

    It's a saftey issue!

    Say you're taking a nice soak in the hot tub some night and the
    GFCI trips, if the lights were on the same GFCI circuit, you'd be
    sitting there in the dark in a wet slippery tub/bath room.

    Charly

      >if the lights were on the same GFCI circuit,
         
    The tub should be on it's very own circuit. Besides, the shower
    light usually is used to illuminate the shower only, not the room.  
    Maybe there's another reason?   Actually, I don't see any harm in putting
    the shower light on a GFCI circuit, provided it's not tied into other
    lights in the room or the tub (?)
        
    Getting instructions from the manufacturer of the tub is a good
    idea -  I'll do that.  Thanks.  
    

	Well the light I put into my bath is part of a bath fan/light
	combo that is specifically rated for "wet" locations and the
	instructions said it should go on a GFCI circuit/leg.

	I'm just curious if my local codes (cause Steve also lives in
	Nashua) differ from the manufacturs instructions.

    I don't remember where I read that lights should not be on a GFCI, but
    it was indeed because if it trips the light goes out, and that lights
    are not typically a shock hazard.  If there is some other light in the
    room not on a GFCI, that would be fine.
    
    Definitely get the manufacturer's instructions for installing the tub.
    Typically you will need a dedicated 30A, 240V circuit (that means #10
    wire) and a GFCI rated for 30A.  (You may have a unit that will run on
    a 20A circuit.)  High-current GFCIs are not cheap.  You'll need a
    separate #8 bare wire that is bonded to the appropriate chassis lug on
    the tub and to a copper cold-water pipe (which is electrically
    uninterrrupted to the water supply.  Check with your local electrical
    inspector for any additional requirements.
    
    				Steve

    I again state that the light should be GFCI protected...if you re-read
    the original request for info in .90 - the light in question is IN THE
    SHOWER!!  I agree that normally you would not have to protect ceiling
    fixtures in a normal bathroom...
    AS for the whirlpool wiring, I have never seen a whirlpool that
    requires 240V....jacuzzis or hot tubs that require heaters would, but
    whirlpool refers to basically baths that you fill for every usage with
    jets.  I have the largest whirlpool that I know of sold, 5 x 7, and it
    only requires a 1 hp pump wired at 120V. Since the tub is fiberglass,
    there was no recommedation to have a separate ground directly to a
    water pipe as described in -1. The wiring is standard 3-wire, separate
    20A circuit, separate GFCI at panel.
    I do go along with the idea of trying to get the manufacturers 
   installation instructions.

        I have and American Standard whirlpool that is 4 x 6.  It also has
        1HP pump wired at 120V.  The wiring is standard 12/3 wire with a
        20A separate circuit GFCI at panel.
    
        There are two recessed lights over it. The switch for the lights is
        wired with the rest of the bedroom (The whirlpool is in the bedroom)
        and located on an opposite wall on a dimmer which cannot be reached
        from the tub.
    [EOB]

    After doing some research in code books, I learned that the recessed
    light in the shower must be the type specifically made for showers
    (rubber seal) and requires GFCI protection.  They make a GFCI unit that
    contains an outlet and a switch - I'll use this switch for the shower
    light.  The code book DID say that "hanging" light fixtures can not be 
    over or within 3 feet of the bathtub/shower.  This information was in a
    recent update to the code book.
    
    My whirlpool tub is an American Standard and the numbers on the motor
    are as follows:
    
    3/4 Hp
    115V
    60 Hz
    14 Amps
    
    So, will a separate 20A GFCI circuit be adequate?

Yes, a separate 20A GFCI-protected circuit will be fine.  You should use
an "outlet-style" GFCI with the reset available in the bathroom rather than
one on the breaker panel.

				Steve

    re>You should use an "outlet-style" GFCI with the reset available in
    the bathroom rather than one on the breaker panel.
    
    Thanks Steve, but is having the reset in the bathroom strictly a
    convenience issue?
    

    dont know why you wouldnt put the GFCI in the panel - separate circuit.
    Remember, we are talking a whirlpool here. If you use the
    "outlet-style", the outlet will most likely be enclosed in the
    whirlpool frame and not easily accessible.  Also, running a connection
    from the pump to an outlet is one more exposed connection underneath
    an area that has the possibility for water contact (leakage, etc.)
    

My reasoning is as follows:

  1.  Convenience should it trip.  (I figured the GFCI would be mounted on a
      wall in the bathroom, out of reach of the tub.)

  2.  Breaker-box GFCIs are more prone to false tripping - partly due to
      the length of wire between them and the load.  The GFCI breaker on
      my spa (60A!) trips randomly 1-2 times a week (and I know there is
      no actual fault.)  But there is some 70 feet of wire between the
      GFCI and the spa.

				Steve

    re>The GFCI breaker on my spa (60A!) trips randomly 1-2 times a week 
    
    You're right, a friend did mention that the breaker GFCI was very 
    sensitive.  I'll just mount a GFCI outlet behind the access panel and
    wire the tub into that.  Besides, the price of the breaker was
    approximately $35 compared to the $16 GFCI outlet so...
    
    Thanks again.

>     sensitive.  I'll just mount a GFCI outlet behind the access panel and
>     wire the tub into that.  Besides, the price of the breaker was

    Why hide it behind an access panel, put it on a wall away from the
    tub where it can be seen and used. If this is a full bath, then
    place it near the sink for hair dryers, razors, etc. If it's not a
    bath but a hot tub room, then put the outlet some place that'll be
    convient for a radio or TV that you might have in there. 

    Charly

    FWIW, last night I saw a GFCI "non-outlet" at Home Depot.  It's
    the same size and shape of a standard rectangular GFCI outlet,
    but has only the test and reset buttons - no outlets.  It looks
    to be intended for use as an easily-accessible alternative for
    a direct-wired appliance and panel-mounted GFCI breaker.
    
    This would probably be more appropriate for the case of a single
    appliance permanently connected to a dedicated circuit; using a
    standard GFCI outlet as was suggested in .109 makes more sense
    if you intend to share the circuit.

    re>GFCI "non-outlet
    
    That's an excellent suggestion, THANKS!  I didn't want to put
    another outlet in the room so this solves all my concerns.
    Thanks to all for your input.
    
    Chip

a litte late on this string, but...

when I did my bathroon (new construction), since I had to put in an outlet and
it needed to be GFCI, I simply tied my whilpool into that!  While I was at it,
I also ran the circuit to a couple outside outlets as well.  Having already put
in something like 8 separate circuits in my kitchen my 200 amp box was filling
quickly and figuring the likelihood of using the tub at the same time as an
outlet were slim enough not to care.

-mark