Conference 7.286::home_work

I have the standard large whole house kind of water softener.  It works by
replacing the calcium with sodium.  While doing that, it reduces the amount
of other bothersome things like iron and manganese.  The iron removal is
the reason that I got it.

The amount of sodium is not really that much.  I have high blood pressure
so I watch this stuff. Example:

Last time the water was tested (from the well) the hardness was 160 mg/l
(considered "hard" water), sodium was 5.2 mg/l.  After going thru the softener,
the hardness was < 2 mg/l, and the sodium rose to 18.53.  Now someone watching
their sodium intake (not on a sodium restricted diet, tho) might like to
keeoptheir intake down to 1000 mg/day.  It would take a lot of liters of
water to do that!

The softener supplies the whole house (keeping iron away from the water heater,
bathroom fixtures, and laundry), and potentially reducing the need for detergent
and soap.

__Rich

I too, have a whole house type water softener along with high blood 
pressure. So I am equally concerned about my sodium intake. 
When last tested the sodium levels in the softened water 
were acceptable but I've often wondered if I install a 
portable inline water filter below the kitchen sink, could I 
reduce the sodium levels even further? These type of filters 
are inexpensive ($50) and can be installed with either a 
sediment or charcoal type filter cartridge. Does anyone know 
if these filters would help and if so, which type cartridge 
should I use?

Thanks in advance!

-Bill-

re: .2

Nothing short of distillation (read: big bucks) will remove the sodium from
the water.

-joet

You can buy a small under the sink reverse osmosis system for about $100 -300.
Over the course of the day it collects about 1-2 gallons of purified water.
Removes just about everything, even arsenic.

There is a model that snaps onto the kitchen faucet for about $100.

__Rich

Check your local water conditioning company.  Near Ayre you can check with
AF Water.

re .2

You could also run a separate tap, bypassing the water softener, from the water
main to the kitchen sink.  Thus, you would have soft water for showers,
laundry, hot water, etc, and hard, but salt free water for drinking.  Perhaps
an in line water filter would do for the drinking line.

Does anyone know how effective the in line filters are?

					August G. Reinig

	By the way, it is recommended that one not use softened water for
plants gardens.  The salt would eventually build up.

__Rich

My father has assorted heart problems, and is on a low sodium diet. He did
exactly what was mentioned a reply or two ago. When the softener was originally
installed, we had it connected AFTER the taps that provide outside water, so
that the lawn still got hard no sodium water (as in .6 salt kills plants). He
just connected the kitchen cold water tap to this same line, and the rest of the
house gets soft water. Now his drinking supply is still hard, but un-sodiumed,
and the hot water fro dishwashing, etc. is soft. Just be sure to do all cooking
with cold water (making coffee, boiling pasta, reconstituting orange juice, ice
cube making, etc). 

My folks did as in .7; the soft water goes to everything but the kitchen
cold water and the outside sillcocks.  They have a Culligan unit that has
been working for something like 25 years with only one minor service call.
Soft water is GREAT!!!

My big question: What would all the salt do to a septic system?  My guess
is it would cause problems after a while, which is why I haven't gotten
one myself.  Does anybody know for sure?  If I had the space I'd put in
a separate drywell (or something) for the water softener flush water to
run into, but I can't arrange that either.

Steve

Could any one give me some idea as far as price/brand goes ?

Thanks!

    I just had one installed by Bill Phair of Harvard, Mass.  Cost for
    an automatic unit that uses salt for regeneration: $690 + tax +
    $150 for installation.  No brand on it, but it appears to be well
    made.  I'll tell you for sure in about 10 years....
    
    I wouldn't particularly recommend Bill Phair as a source.
    He was prompt, came when he said he would, and I only had to wait
    a few days from the time I called him.  However, he is a particularly
    unimpressive plumber.  He's one of that numerous faction who believe
    a lot of solder on the outside of tubing somehow helps.  I mentioned
    that I wanted the cold water to the outside sillcock to bypass the
    softener, and he wasn't at all interested in bothering to do it.
    I suppose I could have pushed it, but after seeing his work I'm
    just as glad I didn't; I'll do it myself and get a job I'm happy
    with.
    Installation for $150 is a bit much, anyway.  There is very little
    to it - just connect the softener in-line with the main water line.
    Now that I've seen it done I wouldn't have any trouble installing
    another one.  If you can, check the manual that comes with the
    softener.  If there are installation insructions that are at all
    complete, think about doing the job yourself and saving some money.
    
    Steve

    I am in need of a water filter.  The water is o.k. to drink but
    there is iron in the water.  I want to put the filter at the water
    tank so that all water used will be filtered.  Does anyone have
    an idea as to what brand is good and price range?  
    
    Anything that I should be watching out for when purchasing a water
    filter?

    Somewhere in the (delni::?) Consumer notesfile is some info on water
    softener's, I think.
    
    If your iron is in particulate form, than an ordinary pleated paper
    filter should work, about $25, max.  You can find them at water
    conditioning stores, or even at Lechmere's (they sell a Pollenex
    model).
    
    On the other hand, if you have dissolved iron, like lots of people
    (including me), more expensive means are needed.
    
    I use a tank-style water softener ($4-$700), that removes the iron,
    and softens the water, at the expense off adding some salt.
    
    I have heard that there are iron removers that do not add any salt,
    anyone  know more?
    
    __Rich

    I have a unit which removes the iron and no salt added. It is from
    MacClean. The unit was installed by Granite State Water Systems
    in Manchester, NH. 
    
    My iron content is now 0.0 versus off the scale. The only additive
    is to increase my ph to an accepatbel level. 
    
    I don't know the cost as it was placed in the house as part of the
    selling price. 
    
    I do know it is working extremely well. It has an automatic flushing
    so you don't have to worry about it clogging. It is necessary to
    add the additive once a year for the PH but beyond that it is not
    a problem (AND NO SALT ADDED)
    
    Merle

    See note 29 in this file.
    
    Steve

    I bought a house that had a small sulfer problem with the well water.
    I called every water treatment company I could locate within the
    Worcester/Springfiled/Hartford area (I live in Dudley, Ma.).  The
    number of solutions was directly proportional to the number of calls
    I made (the cost ran as high as $2,500)!  

    The house already had an activated charcoal filter installed,
    so for a first pass solution I just replaced the charcoal ($90).
    This lasted approximately one month and the problem was back.  The
    problem with this simple solution was a lack of a oxygen source.
    The oxygen trapped  by the charcoal is limited and needs to be
    replenished (usely with a chlorine bleach).  The chlorine improved
    the system once again but required replenishment about every couple
    of weeks.  The next step was to find a better source of oxygen.
    The local well srevice guy that helped me with the charcoal replacement
    came up with the idea of using a new device on the market.  This
    device is mechanical and uses an impeller system to inject air into
    the well water as it is drawn into my storage tanks.  The device
    met all my requirements, cheap and non-chemical.  I had this system
    added to my current well components (injecter and excess air release
    tank) for approximtley $500.  The system has worked GREAT.  I
    backwashed the filter for the first time in 18 months this week!
    I highly recommend this type of device.  NOTE that this device is
    for mineral problems that are NOT in particulate form.
  
    water treatment - another black art!
    
    good luck
    
    ed

    Thanks for all of the advise.  It does sound like someone could
    spend many $$$$$$ on water filters. I'll take my time to buy and will
    listen to others who want to offer advise.  By the way my iron is
    in particulate form.  
    
    I'll let you all know what I buy, how much I paid and IF IT WORKS.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Carl

[I'm going on vacation, so I won't be able to answer questions for a 
couple of weeks...]

Here's the question:

I have a Paloma tankless hot water heater which is having troubles with
our town water supply.  Every three or four months I have to turn off
the water, and disassemble part of the Paloma to clean out a couple of
nozzles that get crudded up with something that looks like butterscotch
pudding.  When clean, the Paloma fires up in 1/4 or 1/2 second and works
just fine.  When full of the town pudding, it takes 6 to 8 seconds,
which is a pain, since the pipes cool down (from the 6 seconds of cold
water before it starts heating) and then have to heat back up before we
get hot water again. 

Before we got the Paloma, we had a so-called tankless heater attached 
to our furnace, and the mixing valve used to get crudded up with the 
same pudding-like stuff.

My question is this:  short of getting a whole new water heater that has
no nozzles or mixing valves to worry about, is there some way to reduce
maintenance? For example, are there any good filters out there that do
not cost as much as a new water heater that might help get rid of the
crud? 

Does anybody have any experience with this kind of problem?

Thanks,

Alex

    I had that sort of problem when I lived in Florida.  I looked into
    purchasing a filter that can be attached to the  main water supply
    as it enters the plumbing in the house.  (These are available in
    Spag's, by the way) and was about the embark on this adventure,
    when I decided to moved.  I think that this is a solution for you
    and I would also investigate the origin of this "pudding."
    Perhaps you should get your water checked and go to the effort of
    getting an analysis done.
    A routine (board of health) analysis will only check for bacteria.
    You should consider the expense of finding out what it is with
    a reputable water analysis.  
    If you want information on water analysis, let me know in notes
    - somewhere I have a good name of a company that will do an
    analysis at a reasonable price.
    
    

    I have a filter from Spags.  My washing machine hose screen used
    to get filled with rocks regularly.  The sediment filter takes
    care of that.  The filter is very easy to install in line right
    after the water comes into the house.  Filter cartridges are easy
    to change.  Mine needs changing about 2 or 3 times a year.
    

    re: .2, what type of filter is this? Do you know model name, or
    description? I have a similar problem with small 'rocks' getting
    clogged in washing machine screens, but I have always been skeptical
    of the effectiveness of filters.
    
    Dave                              

    Recently I have discovered that the dishwasher is leaving yellowish
    brown spots all over the dishes.  These are very apparent on the
    Correlle type white dishware.  The only way to remove them is by
    thorough scrubbing by hand, but it builds up again the next time I use
    the dishwahser.  It appears only on the surface which are horizontal in
    the dishwasher i.e. the dishes are clean but the bowls are not. 
    
    The GE User's Guide says it is either tea or coffee stains or too
    much iron deposits in the water.  I know it is not tea or coffee,
    so it seems as if it the Merrimack Water supply is causing
    this problem.  The manual says that the only way to solve the problem
    is to install iron filter and to contact your plumber.  Has anyone
    had similar problem and if so what was the solution?  Is the filtering
    expensive?
    
    The bath tub forms a green ring around the edges after only few
    days of cleaning.  It is a fiber glass tub.  Is this also due to
    iron deposits in the water?
    
    Thanks,
    - Vikas

Vikas,
	I noticed that in a note of yours a while back you have just 
moved into Merrimack. Welcome! Now for the bad news...If you're a 
consumer of Merrimack Village District water, it surely is the cause of 
your spotting problem. I also discovered that even wells in the 
Merrimack area are plagued by *HARSH* water. 
	Our water bills recommend that you 'flush the lines' for about 5 
minutes prior to drinking the water in the morning because of 'heavy 
metal' accumulation in the feed system. We do that by flushing the 
hopper a few times...then using the water. They are planning to install 
some sort of treatment system (still in the works) and charge each 
consumer an additional $3.00 per quarter to cover the equipment, 
installation and maintenance. Until that time, I plan on installing 
whole-house water filters to scrub out the contaminants. Of course, the 
outside faucets won't draw from the filters... As a short-term solution, 
I installed a Water Pic faucet filter and we use only the water passed 
thru that for cooking and drinking...

			Chris

    Merrimack Water Supply has some serious problems with their water.
    That is why they suggest flushing all of your indoor lines for five
    minutes each day ...
    
    I had a variety of problems.  Boil some water for a while; if you
    have a white pot, there is a green or blue tint that is VERY difficult
    to clean.  I also experienced the same bathtub problem that you
    do.
    
    The MK0/MK1 facility needs to flush their water lines frequently too
    (they had independent testing done and learned that water was truly
    UNSAFE if the lines weren't flushed).  And a lady that works in COG
    downstairs suffered from either Lead or Copper poisoning (I forgot
    which one) compliments of the Merrimack Water Supply. 
    
    I ended up moving (not for the water, though).  For such a serious
    problem, though, I'd think that you should contact a professional to
    see what options you have available.  You might also want the water
    analyzed to see exactly what the problem is with it; that might help
    choose some of your solutions.  And by all means, call Merrimack
    Village District (the water people) and COMPLAIN LOUDLY. 

    As I understand it, if the water is acidic it can leach copper and
    copper compounds off the pipes, some of which are quite poisonous.
    Also lead from the solder, I suppose.  The biggest problem is when
    the water has been sitting in the pipes for a while (like overnight),
    hence the suggestion to run the water a while in the morning.  The
    copper is probably the source of the greenish-blue stains.
    
    Iron can be a big nuisance but is basically harmless as far as health
    is concerned.
    
    And, of course, you may have other stuff in the water too.
    Almost any water problem can be corrected with suitable equipment...
    for a price, which may be rather high.  Get the water tested to
    find out what you have (there ought to be some labs listed in your
    yellow pages), then start calling some water treatment companies
    like Culligan, etc. and see what they can do for you.

    I just installed a water softener a couple of months ago to get
    rid of an iron problem; it was about $700.  After the fact, I think
    I should have done a bit more investigating of options before I
    signed on the dotted line, but the unit seems to be working well
    and it has solved the problem.  I'm just not sure if it was the
    BEST choice for my situation.
    
    Steve
    

    Thanks for all the replies.  You are right.  I just moved to Merrimack.
    I live in a Condominium complex and the condo is paying for the water.
    I am not sure but unless there are multiple sources for water, it must
    be the same one. 
    
    This is a brand new townhouse.  Only since this Sunday I started
    noticing the brown deposits on the dishes.  I am surprised that the
    greenish blue tints show up on the fiber-glass tub but not on the
    other fixtures such as on porcelain washbasin.
    
    I can not possibly afford the megabucks required to install any kind
    of system to fix this problem but is there any cheaper and short term
    solution which would allow me to pass the filtered water through the
    dishwasher?   I will try to run the water for five minutes before
    turning on the dishwasher next time, but there might be still sediments
    left in the pipe which goes to the dishwasher itself.  How much
    those Water Pic faucet filters cost?

    I just called Merrimack Village District Water Supply, and they flatly
    deny the fact that the water is hard/acidic or having iron deposits.
    Where should I complain?  I thought they would *know* about it. 

    - Vikas    

    There is a good discussion back in note 29..
    
    For about $75 you can bring a sample of your water to WaterTest
    in Manchester.  They test for a large number of contaminants and
    give you a good booklet as well.  If you call them, they will charge
    your credit card and send you a sample kit.  (for about $85 they
    will include a postpaid overnight return mailer)
    
    __Rich

    I just got a new dishwasher and a complimentary sample of Jet-Dry
    was in it.  The propaganda for this stuff says that it eliminates
    spotting caused by hard water.  Don't know if it really works...

    I have a somewhat different problem, as I get my water from a well.
    Our well has 7 PPM ferrous iron content where less than 0.5 PPM
    is the reccommended maximum content.  When I first bought my house
    there was a chemical feed contraption on the incoming line to filter
    the iron out.  The basic idea is to oxidize the iron using a chemi-
    cal like chlorine and then to filter it out.  The only problem is
    then you have to drink heavily chlorinated water - totally unaccep-
    table!  I looked into a different filtering system and a company
    in Grafton, MA has a unit that oxidizes the iron by injecting oxy-
    gen into the water by means of a venturi.  The oxidized iron then
    gets cleanly filtered out and your water is as good as any spring
    water (assuming there are no other contaminants).  It's a great
    system except for two things.  One is that it filters too good and
    has a tendancy to get clogged chambers, but that is solved by doing
    a cleaning every two months, and backwashing every two days.  The
    other problem is the price.  I paid $1195.00 for the unit, instal-
    lation, and a 1 year guarantee.  The name of the company is High
    Purity Water Inc.
    
    Rik

    re .5
    
    I was talking to my contracter about my concern of the iron content
    of the way=ter in my new house. He told me that he had a high content
    of iron in his water also (Townsend MA) and that he bought a filter
    for 40 bucks, installed it himself and that the filters cost about
    $5 each and have to be replaced once a month. Now I don't know the
    specific brand or anything, but I am going to follow this up becuase
    if its true it is a minimal cost to save my tub, basin, dishes etc
    from staining. My house is in Brookline N.H. fyi. I will get back
    to this note when I know more.
    
    Andy

re: .5, Water Pic faucet filters...

They're available at places like Lechemere's, Treisman's, Service
Merchandise (Manchester) etc. and run somewhere around $25. You may be
lucky and find a rebate at a Caldor's or Lechmere's (I think we paid $17
after rebate...) 

BTW...Pollenex makes a filter too. I just happened across the Water 
Pic unit first.

    No, Jet-Dry is not the answer.  It does what it is supposed to do
    i.e. reduce spotting of *water marks*.  But if the water itself
    has very iron content in it, it can not prevent those brownish yellow
    stains.
    
    How dare Merrimack Water Supply denies any knowledge of the existance
    of the problem?
    
    - Vikas

    If you hand carry your sample to WaterTest (I'll post directions
    here if asked),  you can ask for a small tour of the lab, while
    saving $10 on return shipping.  I did last week and got to see things
    like an atomic absorbtion photospectrometer, gas chromatography unit,
    and, my favorite, an induction coupled plasma unit.
    
    Very nice people, they even have a Steinway grand in the reception
    area.
    
    __Rich

    If your problem is _dissolved_ iron, a sediment filter (e.g. Pollenex)
    will not help.
    
    __Rich

    I agree, how dare Merrimack Water Supply deny knowledge of existence
    of the problem.
    
    If you want some amusement, ask them why EACH MONTHLY BILL suggests
    flushing the water lines for five minutes a day ... to make sure
    their bills are high enough?

    Since the water bill is paid by the Association, I have not seen
    it yet.
    
    I have decided to keep my utensils having copper bottom out of the
    dishwasher.  The last two times I did not have those stains on the
    dishes. It is easier to wash few utensils by hand than having to scrub
    the all the dishes with bleach and then to clean them again with
    regular dishwashing soap. 
    
    - Vikas

    How about maintenance on "standard" water softeners?  If they
    remove particulates, where do they go?  Are there filters to
    clean periodically?  How often?  How about replenishing the
    salt?  How often and at what price?
    
    Sorry to drop so many questions, but I'm now the proud owner
    of a house (my first), and after 23 years of city water, I'm
    not thrilled with the heavy duty rust stains.  Nor was I
    thrilled with finding rust stains on my laundry after the first
    wash!  
    
    Thanks for any info anyone can provide.
    
    Eric

    Maintenance is minimal.  Every 6 days (typically) a timer goes off
    and the system back-flushes itself to get rid of the minerals and
    whatever else it has picked up.  The stuff just does down the drain.
    Every X months you have to add salt, which consists of taking the
    lid off the salt bin and dumping in a hundred pounds or so of salt.
    Last time I bought some it was (I think) about $4 for 50 pounds.
    
    If your problem is rust though, investigate the rust-removal filter
    that's been mentioned in here someplace.  It may do a better job
    than a water softener for the particular problem you have, with
    no need for salt.

    Thanks for the reply Steve.   For those interested in some VERY
    GOOD reading on the subject of hard water, iron water, and copper
    water, plus how to get rid of stains caused by said,  see notes
    
      346, 845, and 468.
    
    
    Excelent stuff.  It just made my day!
    
    Eric (out to buy TANG)

    Does anyone know of anyplace that does a complete water test in the 
    Fitchburg area.  I do not want it done by a water purifying company,
    as they have a tendency to hound people to buy one of their systems.
    I would even consider a mail order test as long as the company is
    reputable.   Also, how much does one of these tests cost?
    
    Thanks,
    Denis

re: .-1

JP!  you beat me to it!  I used the same outfit and was also quite pleased.

btw - 	is a self water test something like a self-pregnancy test?  i'd be more
    	than a bit nervous using anything by sears or amway.  i can't imagine
	anything in that price range able to perform the types of analytical
	tests required to measure concentrations in the ppm or ppb ranges.  one
	of the reasons tests costs are much as they do it because the equipment
	needed to do the testing isn't cheap.

>        Does anyone know of anyplace that does a complete water test in the 
>    Fitchburg area.  

    I'd be careful with the term 'complete water test'.  Different banks
    require different chemicals to be tested.  There's no standard test
    which all banks will accept.  The only way to do it is to get a
    list of chemicals from the bank.  
    I had a hard time with Malmart Mortgage Company.  They said they
    wanted a complete water test, but the company who I brought the
    sample to (Thornston Lab in Westford, MA) couldn't do anything
    without a list of which chemicals to test for.
    

    Leominster is closer for you, but while we're on the subject another
    place that does water testing is Reitzel Labs in Boylston.  I've
    used them several times.
    If you just want a coliform test, I think your local board of health
    will do it for free.
    

    Check out WATERTEST Corp, in New London, N.H. 03257. Tel # 603/623-7400.

    For $100 they will test about 30 different parameters, and included
    in that cost is courier pickup. I live in Harvard, Ma and that was
    no problem for their courier service. NOTE: the courier service
    is provided since there is a certain time limit on the time from
    which the water is drawn, till when it is tested.
    
    The test parameters range from pH to minerals, to heavy metals.
    Most labs provide certain packages, so be sure to inquire about
    them. 

    I talked to Richard Bodine at Rietzel Labs in Boyleston about the
    price that WATERTEST offers, and he said that he would have to charge
    $200 or more for the same service.
    
    WATERTEST was recommended to us by Channel 4's "Evening Magazine"
    show. I believe they are located all over the USA.

    If you want to be sure exactly what you are drinking, stay away
    from places like SEARS. They cannot test for all items and for
    the things that they do test for, they only provide ballpark
    figures.
    
    sd

We also had our well water tested at the Water Works Lab Inc. in Fitchburg.
I believe the standard tests for hardness, bacteria, sulphur, iron, etc.
was around $60.   For extra $$$ they will also test for other toxic
substances like heavy metals, solvents, etc.  Although our bank only
required the "standard" tests, I also had our water tested for arsenic.

They also have a "mail order" service, and for some extra $$$ they will come and
pick up the sample. Their phone number is 617-343-9198.

Be careful of DCU.  They told me I needed the full EPA test (a standard 
battery of tests).  Then they recommended the place in Westford mentioned in a 
previous note, which performs the test for about $250.  I wisely went to Water 
Works for the same tests for $60.  My water flunked several mineral tests.  
DCU told me I was going to have to install a water treatment system (about 
$2000 or so).  Shortly after that, BankBoston said it was OK, cuase I passed 
the coliform test, which was all they required on refinance!  The coliform 
test can be done free at some places or for $10 at the ones that were 
convenient to my house.  

Needless to say, I was less than pleased with DCU.  (And the lawyer they used 
"inhaled profusely thru pursed lips"!)

						     
							- JP

    Many thanks for the replies.  I'll probably go with Leominster
    water works.
    
    Regards,
    Denis

           Please do check the April issue of Yankee magazine. There
    is an article about water problems in Groton that will make you
    feel faint. They list both WAterworks and Water test as sources
    of testing. Since most towns, don't really test the water except
    for coliform, you must take it upon yourself to do it. The article
    in Yankee was very alarming.
           WaterTest in Manchester is the nations best known lab for
    watertesting. They charge from $20 - $175 for up to 56 different
    tests. toll free 1-800-H20-test.
    
           Waterworks in Leominster, offers comparable testing at 
    competetive rates. toll free 1-800-332-7872.
    
    
           Check it out!
                                                 Denise
    

    CITY TO COUNTRY--------CITY WATER TO ARTESIAN WELL.
    
    I HAVE ALWAYS LIVE IN THE CITY THUS USING CITY WATER.
    
    I AM NOW IN BEDFORD N.H. AND HAVE AN ARTESIAN WELL.
    
    WHAT A DIFFERENCE IN THE WATER...MEANING WHEN I WASH MY HAIR I GET
    NO SUDS....SO I GUESS THAT MEANS THE WATER IS "HARD".
    
    MY QUESTIONS IS HOW DO I MAKE THE WATER "SOFT"?  IS THERE A WAY
    I CAN DO IT WITHOUT THE HIGH COST OF A WATER SOFTER SYSTEM?
    
    HOW MUCH DO THESE SYSTEM COST?
    
    IS THERE A DEVICE THAT I CAN PUT ON THE SHOWER HEAD THAT WILL ADD
    CERTAIN CHEMICALS TO SOFTEN THE WATER?
    
    PLEASE HELP, I WANT MY HAIR TO FEEL CLEAN AGAIN.....
    
    THANKS
                

    Try dir/title=water or dir/title=soft.
    
                                        August G. Reinig
    
    

    As far as I know, there is no cheap fix.  Probably your best
    solution is to go with one of the salt-regenerated water softerners
    - there are several notes in this file about them.  Cost will be
    in the $750 range, probably.  But the unit will probably last
    20 years or more.  My parents have a Culligan unit that is at
    least 20 years old and still going strong.
    

    I recently moved into a home which has, amongst other things,
    a water softener (Marlo brand, about 4 years old).  The previous
    owner did not leave any directions or a users manual for it.
    
    I read the previous notes , 346, 845, etc. but I am still
    not sure of one thing. Do you need to add salt every time
    before the softener backwashes?  Or does the softener
    re-use the salt in the tank over and over.  Also, how
    much salt is added at a time?
    
    I would appreciate knowing how other people use salt in their
    softeners.
    
    Steve

My softener had a tank that held around 300lbs of salt.  Every couple of months
I'd think to take a peek and when it went down enough to make room for a few 
40 lb bags, I'd dump some in.  This only had to be done every few months.  Once
or twice I'd get behind and there would be around 6" of brine in the bottom and
NO salt.  Then I'd have to dump in a lot more to fill it up.

-mark

    As mentioned in .1, most softeners have a salt storage section where
    small amounts of brine solution is drawn out and used in each backwash.
    The amount of salt used per backwash is usually adjusteable together
    with the frequency of backwash. I suggest you contact the manufacturer
    for an new operation manual. This will explain everything. My own
    softener is set to backwash about once a week and will use about
    5 lbs. of solar salt each backwash, thus a 80 lb. bag will last
    me about 4 months.
    

    There is a dial on the softener unit which is labeled "lbs. of salt".
    I imagine this is approx. how much salt is used each backwash.
    There is also a large container which probably holds about 200 lbs
    of salt.  I take it there should always be solid salt in the container
    and when there is no more, it's time to dump it again.
    
    Thanks for the info. It helped a lot.
    
    Steve

RE:  salt use in water softeners

Ohhh!!!  The salt that you dump in the softener is used *only* in the backwash!
Here I thought that you folks were drinking salt water!

I was wondering how much salt you had to put on your food to be able to taste
it after years of salt water treatement :-)

Jim.

    Re: Watertest, etc.
    
    There are several notes in this conference on water testing.
    
    DCU/BancBoston does indeed only look at coliform counts (as do most
    mortage companies)
    
    You can bring your sample to Watertest in Manchester (They've moved
    from New London).  If you do so, ask for a tour (I did).
    Bringing your sample saves you $10.  This makes their "standard
    test" an even better deal.
    
    __Rich

    re .-1:
    
    Actually, the salt is not present _only_ during the backwash.  It
    replaces the undesired water components (calcium carbonate, iron,
    manganese,...) in the softening resins.  Between backwashes is _does_
    add salt into the house water supply.

        I put a 'taste/odor' filter in  my place, although cartridges are
	available for particulates.  Yes, it did  take less than 1/2 hour
	as the unit comes with compression fittings for  3/4" line.  They
	should supply reducing bushings for 1/2" lines.  The unit's got a
	built in bypass valve  with  pressure  relief and the filters are
	supposed to last from 3  to  4 months before they need replacing.
	The particulate filter will clog and  cause  a pressure drop, but
	the taste/odor filter will just become ineffective.   I chose the
	taste/odor  filter because our water, acidic, is pretty  free  of
	floating junk.  I am also finishing a darkroom  and  wanted  some
	'cleaner' water to process film with.
	
	We've been using it for about 4 months now  and  lately, when the
	water runs at full force (washer filling, running baths for kids,
	etc) there seems to be a humming noise emanating from the filter.
	I can only guess that as the charcoal element clogs up, the flow
	causes some  kind  of vibration.  Anyway, I suppose that I should
	change the element.
	
	I can't remember the name, but I got it at  Grossman's,  on sale,
	for  about  $40.  I don't believe that they carry more  than  one
	brand...
	
	Chris

    
    Check the water pressure !!! I installed the one discribed in .1
    and one night the top cracked in half. I bought a pressure guage,
    saw over 100 lbs of pressure and while reinstalling another water
    filter I also included a regulator and reduced the pressure to 60
    lbs. I haven't had a problem for over 6 months now. I didn't like
    the bypass valve on the first filter because it was hard to operate
    and leaked a little. The next filter I bought without the valve
    from a plumming supply store and it still takes the Grossman's
    supplied cartridges. 
    
    I will suggest installation ideas. After the filter ruptured
    I realized how lucky I was to have an adapter to put in place of
    the filter. To make things easier for me, if it ever happened again,
    I installed 3 ball valves as illustrated:
    
    === Main ======= (valve) ======== to rest of house
               ||             ||
             (valve)         (valve)
    	       ||             ||
               ==== (filter)====
    
    
    This will let you bypass the filter if it broke and when you want
    to change filters. 
     
    wayne              

    I've got one but haven't gotten around to putting it in yet.  One
    thing I was considering doing because it wouldn't be all that much
    trouble was running a seperate, unfiltered line for the outside
    faucets.  Might help prolong the life of the filters and the lawn
    doesn't mind the sediment, smell and odor.

    Phil

    I installed one ahead of the pressure regulator. WRONG! The filter
    unit cracked and flooded the utility room just as we came home from
    a camping trip (talk about being in good graces!).
    
    If you don't have one, get a filter installed after the water presure
    regulator. Our problem is that our area is in a growth period and
    the water constantly gets muddy before the filter installation.
    Also with the addition of new water tanks in the area, we're getting
    back pressure from the newer tanks being put on line.
    
    We discovered this after having several sprinkler valves popped.
    We now have a regulator set for 100 psi for the lawn and another
    set for 45 psi for the rest of the house to save on replacing water
    valves in dish washers, washing machines, etc.
    
    /cal hoe

    I was looking at these pressure regulators last night at Spag's.
    They are not cheap!  $50-60 dollars depending on the size of the
    line (1/2v vs 3/4).  The house hasn't had one for 37 years so can
    I assume that the water pressure is "safe"?  Just how do you find
    out the water pressure in the line?  I'd hate to spend $60 to fix
    a problem that doesn't exist!
    
    My plan of attack was:
    
	outside faucet feed            inside feed
               ^                              ^
               |                              |
               |                              |
    ***   ---> | --->   +++   --->   ###   ---+

    water              regulator     filter
    meter    

    
    Phil

    
    
    After the first water filter burst I installed a pressure gauge
    along with the second water filter. You can get them at any 
    half decent plumming store and perhaps cost $10. I would suggest
    getting the one that'll go better than 100 psi.. I'm pretty sure
    the one I bought went up to 200psi but I'm not cretain. It had a
    3/8ths threaded male fitting that mated with a tee I installed in
    the line that had the female thread. If you don't want to keep the 
    gauge installed they also sell plugs for the same.
                    

    The pressure regulator I examined had screw which you turned to
    raise or lower the water pressure, no readable gauge.  So what you're
    saying is that you have to install a gauge as well!  Isn't there
    anything that can measure the water pressure now, without cutting
    the line to get a guage in there?
    
    Phil

    I called the town of Billerica to check my water pressure. They turned
    on a spigot and said it was good. They didn't get into gauges and
    wouldn't guess to what the actual pressure was. You can try calling 
    your town or ask a local plummer to come out(the latter a little
    expensive I'd assume). One other idea would be to get a gauge find
    some fittings and some how attach it to a spigot. The pressure would
    be the same through out the system.
    
    wayne 
        

RE: .0

	I put an in-line filter in my house about 2 years ago, and the
quality of the water has improved greatly.  I usually change the filter 
every 4 months when it gets clogged up.  I use the activated charcoal/
filter cartridges.   Worcester,Mass. water can be horrid at times...

					Joef'

    
    Well, I found water pressure gauges at Spag's, of course.  They
    have a guage to install in-line for around $3 and a portable one
    that screws on to an outside faucet for around $7.  Sounds pretty
    cheap for an in-line gauge.  I wonder why these aren't standard
    issue in the water line after the meter?
    
    Phil

    During the recent heavy snow, we experienced a four-hour power
    failure.  For the next few days, our (well) water was definintely
    rusty yellow-brown in color.  I've talked to a few other folks
    who have confirmed that they have the same problem after a power
    outage, apparently related to the loss of power to the well pump
    and whatever takes place when the power is restored.  As they
    predicted, it cleared up in a few days.
    
    Anybody know what is happening here?
    
    pbm
    

re Note 1912.0 by SALEM::MOCCIA:

You probably ran down the level in the in-house storage/pressure tank if you
drew water when the pump could not run, and either during that or when the pump
did come back up, rusty sediment on the bottom of the tank was stirred up.

Bob

    Re .1
    
    Thanks, that's a reasonable guess, except that no water was drawn
    during the outage (1:30 - 4:30 a.m.).  Maybe the water in the tank
    siphoned back into the well?  I thought there was a check valve
    to prevent this sort of thing.
    
    pbm
    

There's another explanation as well.  This happens to us ALL the time.

If you have hard water (lots of minerals, such as iron), the inside of the pipes
tend to accumulate a build-up.  When the power goes off, the lines may drain.  
If this happens, when the pump starts back up, the pressure of the water rushing
through the pipes washes some of the buildup off the pipes that normally stay
put when there is constant pressure in the pipes.

SOLUTION #1 - never use any water during a power failure unless you absolute
have too!  in other words, the rule of thumb for using your toilet is "If it's
yellow, let it mellow.  If it's brown, flush it down" 

SOLUTION #2 - get a water softener

-mark

    
    Same thing happens to me too.  We have iron/hard water and have
    enough so that it regularly stains tub, toilet, clothing, etc. Have had
    several occasions to shut our water off voluntarily and involuntarily
    and ALWAYS have an extra supply of rust once water flow returns.  We
    get the rust even if we didn't use a drop of water while it was
    shut off.  I have a lot of building going on at my house and we're
    right around the corner from being ready to buy a whole house filter.
    I can't wait.  I hate what that *#@"@*% iron does to everything.
    Haven't bought anything white since I moved to this house and anything 
    once white is no longer. Ever hear of orange Fruit Of The Looms?
    That's what my husband wears now.
                             
    You just might not have very much iron so won't notice it unless
    the pump was off.
           
    

    The current plumbing codes call for pressure regulators if the feed
    pressure is over 80 psi, my water department tell me.  We looked
    on their chart of the town and my area runs about 125 psi.  If and
    when they fire up the well (poluted by WR Grace) across the street,
    my pressure goes up, the pipes rattle and the jon flushes by itself.
    I went to spags and got a 3/4 inch regulator and the necessary values
    and I'm glad I did.  I will probably save that money in conservation
    and reduced ware on valves, both manual types and those in appliances.
    
    BTW, Delta faucets tend to leak after putting in the regulator,
    as they require pressure to keep the water off.
    

    1851 reminded me that the major reason I put in the regulator was
    that I was killing a hot water tank every few years.  

    Thanks for the comments.  I particularly enjoyed this DIY project,
    because it responded nicely to my favorite approach: ignore it 
    'til it goes away by itself.
    
    pbm
    

         We have a Culligan filter as well as a conditioner on the
         water from our well.  We had not used the filter or
         conditioner until about 2 months ago.  (They had been sitting
         idle in the basement since we bought the house about 1+ years
         ago, but that's another story...) 

         Since we out the conditioner in the system, the water is
         _incredibly_ soft.   It's impossible to get "squeaky clean"
         in the shower anymore, since you never feel like you get all
         the soap off (...wife says it feels "slimy" now).

         I called our Culligan man to find out:

         	1) if the thing was operating properly, 
         	2) if the sodium in the water were very harmful and 
         	3) if there was any way to adjust the amount of "softening"
                   it was doing.   [Can't have a slimy wife.]

         After looking up our records he informed me that: 

         	1) If the water was at all softer, then the softener is
         	   almost certainly working properly.   The only way to make
                   absolutely certain is to have the water tested...

         	2) the softener was calibrated to add 10-12 mg/litre
         	   of sodium to the water and that it certainly posed no 
         	   health problem whatsoever. Fine.   

         	3) it was NOT possible (on our unit) to "trim" the
         	   amount of sodium the thing was putting into our
         	   water.   

         Here's where my faith in him falters:

         He continued to say that the "slimy" feeling from soap is
         indicative of the fact that "...you are really cleaner than
         you were with the hard water, since the unsoftened water was
         actually leaving a layer of soap scum on your skin, thus the
         'squeak'..."

         To the point:   

         Is what he said TRUE?  Am I _really_ cleaner than I was
         before?  Or is he just blowing smoke to get me to shut up?  

         I told my nee-squeaky wife that I would ASK THE EXPERTS to
         see if cleanliness .eqs. sliminess.   Well, experts?

         So, is this something we will just have to acquire a taste
         (?feel?) for, or should I pursue this matter further and get
         a water sample done up?

         /doug

         ps.

         I almost wrote this as a separate note, but I decided to be a
         good citizen and post it as a reply to this very old (but
         very similar) note.   Seems a shame to screw up such a
         well-organized conference!  Good job,  Mr. Moderator.

    	I've got an idea that isn't a direct answer to your problem,
    but will help the 'slimy feel' problem.  Change your soap!  Different
    brands have different combinations of detergents and soap (yes,
    detergent and soap are quite different) and will leave different
    films on your body.  I'd suggest trying a bar with more soap, such
    as Ivory, and staying away from more detergent based bars such as
    Dove.  Keep in mind that Ivory and all soap based bars will more
    effectively strip the oils off of your skin and may lead to dryness
    problems.  Soap based bars include Ivory, Irish Spring, and Dial
    while detergent bases bars include Dove, Camay and Neutragena (sp?).
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	

    This is "normal" with softners when used for showering.
    
    From what I've been told:  Minerals in water create some kind of
    drag when you pull your hands across your body.  So does the dirt
    that accumulates before you shower.  When you rinse with hard water,
    there is just enough minerals in the water to create this dragging
    feeling, so you get used to the feel.  Along comes soft water and
    this drag is gone.  It doesn't mean that the soap is still on you,
    but that there is nothing keeping things from being slippery.
    
    
    The only way to "solve" this problem is to possibly change the supply
    to your shower.  If you supplied your shower with hard cold water
    and soft hot water, the slimey feel would probably go away.
    
    
    -bill

    re: .16
    Yep.  The slimey feeling is weird, but it is just because the water
    is soft, NOT because of leftover soap.  You're actually getting
    cleaner, and more thoroughly rinsed, than you were before.

    
>       He continued to say that the "slimy" feeling from soap is
>       indicative of the fact that "...you are really cleaner than
>       you were with the hard water, since the unsoftened water was
>       actually leaving a layer of soap scum on your skin, thus the
>       'squeak'..."
 
    The 'squeak' comes from the stuff (a form of calcium?) that the
    water softener eliminates - it's the white powder that accumulates
    in pipes, humidifiers, etc that use hard water.   
            
    When you are raised with hard water, you associate smooth skin as
    greasy, and squeaky skin as clean. Actually, with hard water you
    have not only cleaned your skin, but covered it with the calcium-
    whatever. The psychological association of squeaky=clean is hard
    to break, people are more interested in feeling clean than in actually
    being clean.
    
    You might want to run hard water to the cold water tap in the kitchen
    for drinking.

    
    	RE: Sodium
    
    	The Maximum allowable by the State of NH is 250 mg/liter so
    	you are well below that level in this state.

    
       I am installing a water softener and my problem is that the
     drain pipe to back flush into is way on the other side of the 
     house from the house water supply.
    
       My question is can I plumb the drain outside the house into
     a burried corrugated pipe in my back yard???? Is there anything
     "hazardous" in the water or concentrated enough to do any 
     Environmental damage???
    
                                                   thanks,
    
                                                     Dan

    	You are only backwashing the salt brine from the softener. Except
    for some dead grass near the drain there isn't any problem.

    Glenn

    If I understand what you are saying, the drain from the water softener
    is supposed to go into your sewage system (town) or septic tank.
    The drain (or waste from the water softener) is salt water.  It's
    not hazardous compared to Love Canal, but it will certainly not
    do wonders for your lawn or flower garden.  Typically when your
    water softener cycles, it goes thru quite a few gallons of salt
    water (maybe something like between 20 and 90, depending on the
    size of the resin field in the softener).  Find a way to get it
    to an appropriate dumping place, but not too far away.  You can't
    put a lot of back pressure on the drain line for most softeners
    (in the form of long distances).  What does the seller of the 
    softener say?  From whom did you buy it?
    

    So, what did you buy, what did you pay, and does it work?
    (I've got the same problem).
    
    pbm
    

    Has anyone had any experience with the water filters that you attach
    to your kitchen sink?  The ones that you switch on when you want
    to drink the water.  I am interested in some feedback as far as
    price, quality of the product and water and any other experiences.

    I've got one of the Teledyne units that screws directly to the
    sink spout and uses little replacable cartridges.  It works
    pretty well.  I think it cost about $20 or something, a couple
    of years ago.  At Spag's, of course.  The filters are about $3 
    each, I think, and last about 3 months.  It makes a difference 
    in the taste of the water...for the better.  It seems to be a 
    pretty good unit, considering the price.
    A friend has one of the larger units (I don't know what brand)
    that sits off to the side and is connected by hoses; seems to 
    work okay too; possibly better.  I assume it has more capacity
    and the filters probably last longer.  More $$$ though.
    
    If you're got a problem with water taste, I think it would
    definitely be worth trying one.  You might try one of the small
    units first, then spend the bucks for a larger unit if you like
    the results of the smaller one and feel you want more capacity.
    They aren't "just a gimmick"; they definitely do something.

    I also have one of the Teledyne units and the difference in taste
    is quite remarkable, more than I thought it would be
    
    I thought there would be a problem with me remembering to change
    the cartridge, but there isn't a problem. There is a little white
    piece of foam which is a pre-filter of sorts that sits on top of
    the cartridge. Over time the white foam becomes light brown, then
    dark brown. When it is dark brown I replace it.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    I bought one yesterday, it is an Instapure model (I don't
    remember the manufacturer).  It cost about $15.
    
    We have problems with terrible tasting water, too much chlorine
    and miscellaneous chemicals.  The filter COMPLETELY removes the
    bad taste from the water.  Took about 10 minutes to install,
    including reading the directions.
    
    Bill Norcott
    

    
    I have a large filter with a seperate spout system from Amway. We use
    the iron rich, bad tasting hard water for cleaning, and use the filtered
    water for drinking. The whole thing hides under the sink cabinet. The
    filter lasts at least a year. You can really tell the difference when
    making tea or ice cubes. The tea tasted like metal. Now it's great, and
    the cold drink you just poured doesn't taste like dirty ice cubes.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    Speaking of Amway water treatment systems, they were rated #1 out of 10
    leading manufacturers of water treatement systems by Practical
    Homeowner.
    
    They tested them under different categories and Amways WTS placed
    first in each category.  They measured performance at 3 levels,
    start, 50% and 100% of rated capacity.  Effectiveness was measured
    by their ability to remove 3 polluntants (free chlorine, total 
    chlorine, and trihalomethanes).  Only Amway's completely eliminated 
    both free and total chlorine at all 3 stages.  Amway's scored the
    best at removing THMs with 99.5 removal at the start, 96.3 removal
    at 50% and 94.6 at 100%.
    
    The article said that the poor performers used granulated carbon
    filters while the most effective used carbon-block filters.
    
    The article also said that test showed the "faucet-end" activated
    carbon filters failed entirely to reduce contaminants to desired
    levels-a conclusion since confirmed by Consumers Union.
    
    Kathy

    
    Re: -1
    
    Thanks for the info. 
    
    Mine is about 6 months old, still flows like new, and the water is as
    good as ever. I wanted a system that wouldn't be seen, and would work
    well for a long time without messing with it. It's not cheap, but to me
    it's worth it. BTW, my wife and I were in Jordan Marsh last night
    returning redundant wedding gifts, and I happened upon the Bionaire
    filter systems. The 850 model looked like it used a similar cartridge
    as the Amway, but I couldn't be sure without comparing them.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Does anyone know if some of these filters can remove metals 
    (lead and copper) from water?
    
    -tm
    

    It will take out particles of lead carbinate and copper oxide (from
    pipes, etc).
    
    It will not remove them if they are in liquid form.
    
    Kathy

    RE .7 & .8
    
    	Removing copper and lead from water is a complicated process.
    I spun filter would not do the job, but a water softener or other
    ion exchange column would remove some but not all metal ions.  The 
    method they use in industrial waste treatment is precipitate the 
    Cu++ and Pb+ as hydroxides and let them settle out in a clairifier.  
    The other 'bad' metals such as cadnimum are even harder to remove.
    I am not aware of a home system that can remove metal ions from
    your water.
    	My personal opinion is that you have much more to worry about
    from solvents in your water than metals.  Metals can only harm you
    if you ingest them orally (drink water).  Solvents can attach either
    orally or dermally (through the skin).  How many gallons do you
    drink per day, one maybe?  How many gallons of water hit your skin
    during a shower (15)?  It just shows that people who drink bottled
    water for health reasons are just kidding themselves.
    

               			=Ralph=

    re: .12 and maintenance
    
    The Neutralizer at my s.o.'s house is over 10 years old.  He took
    it apart because the input valves had corroded and were leaking.
    In the process he noticed that the sand and the gravel that are
    inside turned red, presumably from rust.  He has been flushing it
    for three days and the water is still running red.
    
    Question:  This is a Sears unit.  Sears wants some $50 for new sand
               and gravel for the unit.  Have any of you done this?
               Is there somewhere else to get the supplies, at perhaps
               a more reasonable price?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Elaine

    re: 20.
    
    Sand and Gravel? Are you sure you are talking about a NUETRALIZER?
    
    The unit I have is chock full of nuetralizer compound ONLY. The
    compound uses itself up over about 6 months and then there is
    nothing left in it (no sand, no gravel). I should add that this
    is according to the picture, since I have not actually seen
    an empty unit yet.
    
    SEARS does have a carbon/charcoal/filter unit that costs about
    $50 to replace the above items.  Is this what you mean?
    
    M
    

    re: .21
    
    I must confess I do not understand the unit.  He bought pool filter
    sand last night and re-used the old gravel. I'll check it out this
    weekend and un-confuse the issue.
    
    Thanks, though.
    
    Elaine

    
    	I'll wager a guess.  Sounds like it might be a sediment filter.

    RE: .23 I agree!
    
    (by the way, I looked at the NUETRALIZER manual carefully last night
    and yes, there is a VERY small (maybe 6-inches or so) layer of
    gravel at the bottom of it. Used to distribute compound.
    
    Again, I would guess that you (RE: -2) are REALLY looking at
    a sediment filter...
    

    I got to know this neutralizer very well yesterday.  Yes, it holds
    neutralite (neutralizing compound), but under that is 10 lbs of
    gravel and 10 lbs of sand.  The water coming in is forced into the
    bottom, where it sifts up through the gravel and sand and neutralite
    until it is all pH balanced and it leaves from the top.
    
    It was not fun getting the sand back in there.  For those of you
    who have these gadgets, check the book to see if there is sand/gravel
    in the base before you pull the tube out of it.  It doesn't easily
    get back in.
    
    Elaine
    
    "I'm glad I have decent water to start with"

    We had a guy from Aqua Fix, local (Nashua, NH) franchise for RainSoft,
    come by our house last night to test our water, etc.  It is hard but
    not really really hard (5 grains), and doesn't have iron and stuff like
    that in it. He wanted to sell us an overall water softening/purifying
    (ion?) system plus a super-duper purifier (osmosis) for the tap for
    cooking and drinking. Since our water doesn't seem all that horrible,
    we're not interested in the tap purifier, but are semi-interested in the
    overall system for the house.  The demos he did comparing our water to
    water treated with a portable RainSoft system were impressive. 

    Anyone have any experience with Aqua Fix/RainSoft?  I've read through
    the other water notes here and haven't seen it mentioned.  The price
    he quoted (a couple thousand for the ion system and over a thousand
    for the osmosis system, though of course he would give us a 10% discount!)
    seem steep compared to some of the prices I've seen in other notes.
    What other brands would you recommend?  I've seen Culligan (?) mentioned
    fairly often.

							-- Nina

    
    	I had Russ come over my house about 6 months ago to do the same
    tests.  Unlike yours my water is 9 grains on the hard side and is
    iron free and the ph is right on the money.  We went and installed
    the softner and the osmosis for the tap.  The softner is great you
    can really tell the difference when you take a shower and the clothes
    are whiter and softer. The installer for Aqua Fix did a superb job
    and did not leave a mess down my basement. All in all I'm pleased
    with the water softner and if I had to do it again I would not get
    the osmosis purifier.  A couple of reason why, 1) the water is not
    cold because the tank is in the basement and 2) because they tap
    it off the cold water pipe the preasure is low and if you use it
    to cook with it takes for ever to fill a pot of tea kettle.
    
    Send me mail if you have  further questions.
    
    	Don
    

    I am selling my house. The water test revealed that the water was
    not potable because it exceeded the EPA standards for nitrates.
    I am told that this can be fixed by installing a filter. Has anyone
    had this problem? Does it matter if the filter is placed in the
    basement to filter all the water in the house, or just under the
    kitchen sink to filter the water that people will drink?

    We looked into this last year, and I think that the issue is the
    capacity of the filter; its too small to handle all the water in
    the house, that's why most people put it under the sink.  It also
    has a separate spigot for drinking water; dishes are still washed
    with  the regular water.  I think that the cost was about $1500
    for the system we were looking at.  I may still have the brochures
    at home, and would happy to send you a copy.
    
    Susan
    

    Since writing the note, I have contacted several places about a
    filter. They all advised an under the kitchen sink filter
    for about $725. It would filter all the water at the sink. However,
    my buyer wants something that will filter all the water used in
    the house. I have not looked into this yet because the very helpful
    people at AF Water Conditioning Store in Ayer, Ma. 1-800-772-6773,
    suggested that I should have the water retested first. It was only
    1 mg/l over the EPA limit.

    I was going to rply to .8 about the the lead. I see Kathy keeps
    up on this subject. Nice work!
    
    It is also good to hear so much great news about the AMWAY W.T.S.
    I have one too. It's the best investment I have made. My parents
    were buying bottled water. We figured out that they were paying
    about $270.00 a year. They used it in cooking as well as drinking.
    
    I too know where you can obtain an AMWAY W.T.S.. If you are interested
    in knowing more about it and your water. Let me know.
    
    At little note for you bottled water drinkers.... There is only
    one state at present that regulates the testing of bottled water.
    It's New York. The results are VERY disterbing. Out of 110 different
    brands tested in NY 46 were found to still have potentially hazardous
    chemicals. (N.Y Dept. of health)
    
    It should also make you wonder why there is a bill being formed to
    be put to the state legislature on controlling the regulation for
    bottled water in MA.
    
    We all need water to live! And from what I have seen it's not getting
    any better.
    
    Richie Laperle

    We have a whole house Culligan water softener.  Every 3-4 nights it
    does a recharge for 3 hours or so.  The problem is that during the
    cycle (I think towards the end) there is this awful noise that sounds
    like the house is coming down.  We are pretty sure that it is the
    pressure in the pipes but we don't know what to do about it.  (This
    happens at approximately 3 AM!!)  The system was in the house when
    we bought it and we have had Culligan out a few times - all they
    say is all systems makes some amount of noise, they'd never seen
    one that noisy AND they DON'T know what we can do about it...so
    helpful. Does anyone else have this problem or any suggestions for
    fixing it.
    So far we have always called Culligan in Lowell.  I just saw in
    the phone book that there is a Culligan in Lincoln - does anyone
    know anything about the people who work at this store?

    Re .28
    
    I can confirm that our system (not a Culligan, but the salt-
    replacement systems are all basically the same) is also extremely
    noisy, especially during the initial 15 minute backflush and the
    final fifteen minute refill.  The one hour flush/recharge is
    reasonably quiet.  By noisy, I mean that it wakes me up at
    3:00 a.m., and our master bedroom is on the second floor at the
    opposite end of the house from the cellar area that houses the
    water softener system.  The noise in our case is from the flow
    restriction in the control head on top of the resin tank; consider
    it to be either a bug or a feature as you choose; I don't think
    there's much you can do about it.
    
    Ours recharges on demand every 1000 gallons, which means about
    every 9 or 10 days (two of us) for a period of 1 1/2 hours.
    
    pbm
    

    I own a rainsoft system and it has never made enough noise to wake
    me up during the recycle period. the only time I've heard it is
    I was up going to the bathroom and heard water running went running
    down stairs then down cellar only to find out is was in the process
    of recharging the tank. I thought my sump pump was running(that's
    another story).
    
    Just my .02 worth
    don
    

    
    
    i own a culligan unit, and it does make noises on recharge. 
    but its just enough to let you know its in recharge cycle.
    i do get a rotten egg smell in the water from time to time,
    and have been told by the culligan people to run some chlorine
    bleach through the unit and this would clear it up. and it does.
    is this a common problem?
    
    steve

    We have to run bleach through our culligan system to.  It seems
    like we were doing it fairly regularly for a while but it nows seemed
    to have tapered off.  Maybe we finally killed something!

	Just went to the HOMESHOW at Bayside over the weekend and I saw
something I had never seen before. There was a gadget there that was 
supposed to be two south pole magnets facing each other that is put
on your water pipe. This gizmo is supposed to align the ions in the water
and reduce scaling and help any type of water filter work twice as good.
They also have these for your oil burner as well as the fuel line in your
car. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing and would it work...? Thanks.


							Robert Sarao

                Sounds like a good way to get some suckers money........

    I saw the same idea applied to automobiles that was guaranteed to
    increase mileage through the same principles.
    
    It consisted of a couple of cow magnets (farmers place these in
    tha cow's stomach to attract things like fence staples) lined up
    and attached to the fuel line just as it entered the carburetor.
    
    Like .1 said, these attracted the people who bought the "miracle"
    carburetors which were guaranteed to give your 5 zillion cubic inch
    road monster 493.5 m.p.g.
    
    Bob Paulin
    

       Like the 'man' said: "All you gotta do is nail 2 things together
    and 'somebody' will buy it".
                                                     Denny

I'm planning on installing a water softener soon.  My main concern is the
PVC work.  In our cellar, I have to add a T-Y thingie and a P-trap gizmo to
an existing horizontal run draining our kitchen sink.  Is this OK?
	- add a horizontal T-Y to the existing horizontal 1-1/2" PVC run
	  ("open" end points horizontally toward the softener)
	- short length of horizontal 1-1/2" PVC
	- right angle down
	- P-trap pointing up (this puts the water in the trap lower than the
	  existing run)
	- enough vertical 1-1/2" PVC to allow a 12" air space
	- into this 12" secure 10" (+-) of my 1/2" softener drain hose

(I didn't think this topic had been brought up, but, sure enough, note
1111 (reply .78) pointed me right here.  The system works!)

                                             
I live in central, southern NH and have a drilled well.  I'm experiencing iron
and other hardness-minerals in the water.  I need to install SOME TYPE OF
FILTER.  I'm unsure as to whether I need a full-blown filtration/softner system
or could use a simple in-line particle filter.  The first costing between $1700
and $2500 and the second only ~$100-200. 
                                             
Does anyone have experience they can share in regards to this water problem?
I understand this to be a very common problem in Ssouthern NH.

Thanks in Advance,
Love,
-Pam

The below chart shows some information I received from different filter
distributors including the test results of my water tests.
________________________________________________________________________________
Dist  |	Aqua Fix Inc.		Lindsay                 Culligan
Rep   |	Russell Leonard		Paul Vento              Donald Cummings
Brand |	Rainsoft		Ecowater Sys            Culligan
      |	
Hrdns |	4 GPG			4 GPG                   4 GPG 
pH    |	6.8                     6.9                     6.8
Iron  |	5 PPM                   4 PPM                   5.2 mg/l
      |
Equip |	AQ32T (filter           filter			MK89-softner
      |		& brine tank)   conditioner		w/guard
      |	Sediment filter         brine tank		brine tank
      |
Warrty|	life-all but elecs.     life-tanks     		life-tanks
      |	5yrs-elec		5yrs-brine tank         10yrs-brine tank
      |							10yrs-button-by-pass
      |							5yrs-valve
      |							1yrs-timer
      |
Cost  |	$2100			$2498			$1695
      |

    You can always install only the filter system, check the results,
    and then install a water softener later, if necessary.  However,
    I think you'll find that the filter will only remove sediment.
    If your iron content is not terribly high, a conventional salt-
    replacement softener system will reduce it to an acceptable level
    as well as performing its normal softening action.  Next step up
    is to lace the salt in the brine tank with a cheap chemical made
    for the purpose of eliminating iron.  Third step is a more expensive
    solution.  The subject is also covered elsewhere in this notes file.
    Try Policy Well & Pump in Salem for system prices.  Talk to Harry
    Allison; very knowledgable and helpful, won't try to oversell you.
    
    pbm
    

    
    I documented my iron problems in another related note.  We contacted
    7-8 treatment companies, including Lindsay and Culligan. It took
    us a long time to end up with the product we wanted.  There were
    such differences in prices between one company and another even
    when the product was so similar.  We ended up going with CUNO, Inc., 
    Meriden, CT, 203-237-5541.  We contacted them initially and then had
    the unit delivered to a local distributor. We liked the quality of
    their product, their knowledge, their very good service and especially 
    the price.  They were 1/2 the price as Lindsay and Culligan.   Might
    be worth it to give them a call, even just for a comparison.
    
    Kathy                                                       

Hi,

You may also want to try Mr. Water Care located in Merrimack NH.

Alan Lindahl is the owner 424-5119.  Tell Al I said hello.

- Howard

    I am looking into buying a water filter, but I'm having a little
    bit of trouble getting consistant data from the companies that sell
    the equipment.  I have a little iron (clear-water iron i.e. dissolved),
    roughly 1 to 2 ppm.  I have high manganese ( .13, I think the units
    are mg/l), 5 to 6 grains of hardness and a PH of 7.5 to 8.  I also
    have some bacteria growing in my toilet tanks, and brown stains
    wherever water stands around (shower, sink bottoms, toilet bowls).
    
    I'd like to know whether a standard iron filter (Birm, no air
    injection) can remove the manganese, and whether a water softener
    can remove the manganese.  I think I'd like to get a water softener,
    because with the moderate hardness and high PH I'm probably getting
    calcium/etc deposits on the insides of my pipes.  I understand that
    water softeners can remove 2 ppm of iron without much trouble, but
    is this red (precipitated) iron or clear (dissolved) iron?  
    

    Adv(thanks)ance,
    
    Steve

    Can someone please recommend a way of removing the lime scale build up
    from a tap spouting out hard water ?

    I did it recently by scraping. It's a case of finding something hard
    enough but not so hard that it scratches the taps - I used some v. hard
    plastic.

    Alternatively you could take them off and dunk them in one of the
    proprietary kettle de-scaling solutions. Even then it might help to
    chip off the really big stalactites first.
    
    I was surprised to find how the attributes of the hardness varies with
    locality. Around here it seems to be softer (?) than in Hertfordshire
    where I used to live. It was like granite there.
    
    Good luck
    
    Dick
    

    I had the same problem and attacked it at two levels and continue
    to have had no problems for three years to this point.
    
    I used Muriatic Acid for cleaning the taps and outlet in the sink,
    bathroom vanity, tub and toilet; it can be purchased at any hardware
    store for $2 or so in a bottle of a few ounces, which is plenty
    to do the kitchen and bath.
    
    The long term problem is that the cause of the hardness is in the
    water system, probably calcium, and will be all through your plumbing
    and will continue to build up with time. What I did was to add a
    water conditioner (readily available) about three years ago and
    the buildup never came back. In fact with the continued generation
    of "clean" water, the deposits have disappeared from the toilet
    holding tank, plumbing, and the inlet and outlet of my septic system.
    
    I agree with .1 that you should chunk off the easy stuff first,
    and then soak the tips of the taps in a container of the recomm-
    ended mix of Muriatic, say in a glass container or something 
    similar. Soaking will take a few hours after which the stuff
    can be wiped off. As a plus, with the conditioner in the long
    term, everything is cleaner, dishes, bathroom fixture, etc.

    If you need more info, you can reach me on POLAR,
    
    Good Luck!

    Use Lime-Away which was made just for what you want.
    -j

    I"d second the Lime-Away, we've used it with much success. Besides
    it does not have the gosh-awful fumes that muriatic acid has(my
    husband used some on some bricks outside and even out there the
    fumes made me feel like ---- !)
    
    Lynn
    

    We have some lime buildup on some sinks at our house and have used
    vinegar to help soften it so that it can be easily wiped off.  I
    don't know how well it would work with large, tough accumulations
    of scale.  Hope this helps.

I thought I would revive this topic one more time.  We recently had a water
purification company, called Safe Water, come out and test our water.  Now I
know they are going to try and slant the results to prove that we need a Water
Purification System. What I am trying to find out is 1) Is this a reputable
company?  2)  Do our results need some sort of treatment at all? 

A little background:  To begin with they dropped a bottle off at our house,
unsolicited, and asked if we would like a free water test.  Also with this
bottle was a short questionnaire.  Since I was concerned about blue residue in
the tub and dryer, I thought it would be worthwhile.  I did note this problem
on the questionnaire. They called the same day and said there was a problem and
that they would like to come out and do further testing.  They would like both
of us to be home.  I asked if this would be a sales pitch which they insisted
would not be.  Last night he came to our house and did several tests.  What he
basically told us was the following: 

	Hard water (7-9 level)
	Percipitation in water (scale of 1-10 ours was 5)
	PH (7.0)
	Iron (no traseable signs)

Now, I have read most of the notes in this file on water softeners and somehow
the level he gave for the hardwater doesn't seem to jive with what other people
are saying.  The percipitation (or junk in the water) is midway, does this
sound acceptable?  I know the PH is at the prime acceptable level.  He says
that our water problem is of the nuisance level not a serious condition.
However, he says we need the full water purification system (water gets
filtered through some kind of quartz with the backwash of brine solution to
clean itself out) with the osmosis faucet in the kitchen for a whopping total
of $3900!  Somehow this seems like overkill.  When all we were concerned with
was a little blue reside in our tub! He then proceeded to tell us that we had
to make a decision right then and there that this was a "special" deal and that
they were only offering 7 such deals in the area and we were number 7.  He
still insists that this was not a sales call!

I guess I get kind of leary of "sales" people who will not even let you think
it over for 24 hours.

What do you experts out there have to say?  Do you think my water needs
"purification"?  Is this company reputable?  Am I crazy or is $3900 a lot of
money for this kind of system?
                                                                       
Also, does anyone know of an independent place in the Townsend are to get
    your water tested?
        
Thanks for any and all input.

Joyce

>He then proceeded to tell us that we had
>to make a decision right then and there that this was a "special" deal and that

	I'm the kinda guy who'll buy almost anything but I would've tossed
	this guy right outa the house when he said that.  Reputable dealers
	have no need for high pressure sales.
	
	Scott.

I looked at my results (one independent, one water treatment outfit) and saw
that alongside my ppm (parts per million?) or was it mg/l (milligrams per liter)
was another number (grains per gallon?) - a 6 on one test equated to 102, the
other test's 5 equated to 86 mg/l.  Whether ppm or mg/l, the recommended max
was 150.  I'd say your 7 - 9 was high, but maybe acceptable.

Also, our water was tested for 14 different things, none of which was called
"precipitation".  We had a Total Dissolved Solids, which totalled hardness and
some others.  This number was nowhere near your "precipitation" though.

For what it's worth, I *think* blue stains mean copper.  *IF* it's copper,
and if naturally-occuring copper is as rare in New England as I've been told,
copper can only come from your household plumbing.  Copper comes out of pipes,
so I'm told, with a low pH - which you don't have.  All of which is to say,
I dunno.

RE: .33

	This sounds like the 'deal' that we could have had about a month 
ago.  High pressure non-sales call.  Called his 'manager' several times 
and proceded to spew forth tons of garbage from his mouth as he tried
to sell us a 5000$ water purification system for only 3900$.  It came with
a 5 year supply of household detergent made for soft pure water, and free
(woopie) installation.  

	Whatever you do, write this guy off.  It's a scam.  My wife says 
that she heard that there was a water softener scam going on in the 
southern NH area.  I believe they were part of it.

	Look at the list that was posted for companies you can find in the
yellow pages, not fly-by-nighters'.

						.dave.

> We recently had a water purification company, called Safe Water, come
> out and test our water. 

Yep! They dropped off their kit with instructions and sample bottle at
our house this week also (Sterling Mass). I saved the neat little
plastic bottle and threw away the bag and instructions. 

The instructions "ask" that if we don't want the "free" test, that we
put the empty kit back out the next morning so that they could drop it
off with someone else and help keep the costs down. Right!

I briefly thought about filling the sample bottle with Poland Springs
bottled water and seeing what kind of water equipment they would try
to sell us.... but I decided I didn't want to listen to their B.S.
sales pitch. PERIOD! 

Charly

	The same duds did us last summer.  We left the sample out just to see
what they had to say.  The following week, he came knocking on the door--

	He:  "Hi, we've got some bad news about your water.  It's plain awful
	      and could be deadly.  Our purifier will solve all your problems."

	Me:  "Really!  Do you have the specifications of your system so
	      I can study them and make comparisons to other systems?"

	He:  "Oh sure, but I can't leave them cuz *you* wouldn't understand 
	      them!"

	Me:   (bluffing) "Well, I guess I'll just hang up my Chemical 
	      Engineering Degree in the toilet for the next time we run out of 
	      toilet paper."

     He nearly forgot to open the door in his haste to make an exit.

								--Mike

    
      Sounds like a definite scam to me, there have been lots of
    different scams running in the New England area recently.
    
      If I were you, I would get as much info. on the company as
    possible and have either Better Business or the Attorney General's
    office check them out.   Chances are they're using a post office
    box number and a pay phone somewhere.
    
      Always insist on complete information, reliable references,
    and never give them any deposits or credit card numbers, least
    of all sign something before checking it out, even if you are
    the last possible person that could "get this deal".
    
                                       Mark

     Just pee in their bottle and send that in.
     Up here in Canada, the local health authorities will perform a
    non-biased test on your water for you for a modest fee of $14.00.
    I would think that your local health autorities (government) would
    also provide a similar service.

And should all fail and you sign with some outfit like this, you have 
three days to rescind everything and get any deposit back. That's in 
the Commonwealth of Massachusetts anyway.

John H.

	Looking at it from the salespersons point of view, he/she probably
    makes little (if any) money unless he/she sells you something. Putting
    yourself in his/her shoes, the thought process probably goes something
    like this.
    
    	The first thing he/she has to do is get in the door. Next he/she 
    has to determine if you need this thing (optional if the person
    is a dirt bag). If you do in fact need one, a reputable dealer should 
    be able to explain "why you need one" in simple easily understood
    terms. They should also be able to provide you with how their product 
    stacks up against the competition. If they didn't/can't/won't do that, 
    then there is probably a significant difference in cost, performance,
    or both between their's and other similar products.
    
    	If all else fails, a slime ball that doesn't give a damn will
    try to make you feel like "If you don't act now your going to miss
    out on the deal of your life". This is an age old, sure fire sign,
    of HIGH PRESSURE SALES. 
    
    	When you look at it this way, you may be able to anticipate this 
    and possibly save yourself some grief by telling the person as soon as 
    they walk in the door what you expect and what will get them promptly 
    escorted off your property.

    	Ray

    
    i'm in the process of building a new house...
    i bought the land, with a drilled well , already there...
    
    most of the people in the neighborhood have sulfur in the water.
    
    i'm going to have to have the water tested, when i close on the
    mortgage, is some sulfur in the water bad for you ( that is , will the
    test fail )  ?? I'm wondering if i can get away without getting
    a water system, for a short time. i already have a counter top
    reverse osmosis water purifier, so  i will not be drinking or cooking
    from that water...
    
    and i know that the water might smell some....
    
    thanks

I've looked through the notes on water problems (especially #845) but I 
haven't seen any comments on the problem I've run into - high sodium 
and Chloride levels in water.  Has anyone else run into the same problem?

The details - I had the water tested and the results came back:

		measured	Recommended max.


Iron		.25		.3 mg/L
Manganese	.05		.05 mg/L
Chloride	553		250 mg/L
Sodium		171		150 mg/L
Hardness	408		150 mg/L
	(23 grains?)		   (8 grains?)
Ph	         6.2		Recommended is 6.5 - 8.5

I talked to Granite State Water Treatment (I'm located in Bedford NH) 
and they recommended:

	Acid Neutralizer - for PH
	Water Softener - for Hardness, Iron, Manganese; as a byproduct
	 it adds even more Sodium to the water (they estimated about 100
	 mg/L)
	Under sink reverse osmosis unit in kitchen - removes Sodium
	 and Chloride, provides 3-10 gallons per day.

With installation this was about $2000.

I had the water tested because it's eating away at the stainless knives 
and forks and pots and pans and I'm about to replace a 3 year old hot 
water storage tank that is leaking, and it's obviously hard - the
dishwasher and washing machine leave a film on everything.  His comment
was that I would still have the same problem with the dishwasher with
this because the sodium is eating away at the metal. 

So - Is there any way to reduce the sodium level to the whole house?  Is 
there a less expensive way (self-install is not an option!) to do the 
same thing they proposed?  Help!

By the way - I asked if this could be salt contamination from runoff 
from a road and they told me that the levels would be much higher.  Is 
that right?

Thanks,
Bill

    Hi,
        I had the same problems a couple of years ago. The N.H. Dept
    of Transportation has a program to replace wells that they contaminate.
    They have a few rules that the contaminated well must fall under,
    such as;  The well must be more than a certain distance from the
    State road, must be newer than 1955 (I think)etc.
    
         They replaced my well after monitoring the levels of chlorides
    for a period of one year after I logged a complaint with them.
    
    I found my problem when the water started tasting funny and decided
    to have a test done on it. The highest levels recorded in my well
    was 600 mg/l and the average was 450 mg/l.
    
        Also had all of the same appliance problems you mention: 2
    dishwashers, 3 hot water tanks, 1 dryer drum, and who knows what
    else that will have a shorter life than expected.
    
    Give them a call, they are located in Concord, they even have their
    own water quality engineers and lab's. If you can't find the number
    send a reply and I will be glad to look it up for you. And if you
    have anymore questions, give me a call at DTN 292-2102
    
    Paul L.

    I have a water softener in my house in urgent need of salt. I usually
    buy it at Sears at the Auburn Mall (Mass.), but they have been out
    of it for two weeks (that I know of). I have called a lot of places
    in the Greater Worcester area looking for salt with no luck. Could
    anyone give me a pointer to a source for salt in this area? I am
    tired of waiting for Sears to learn how to manage their inventory
    levels. In the meantime, everything that comes in contact with our
    very hard water is starting to show signs of it. 
    
    Your help will be appreciated.
    
    Sal

    Did you check the yellow pages under Water Softeners?

    I went through the yellow pages already. Seems like salt systems
    are a thing of the past. I also called Somerville Lumber and
    Grossman's. I'll check other hardware stores today.

There's a farm store on Stafford street in Oxford/Leicester and Beck's Grain
out in Southbridge. I would think these types of places would carry it too.

    We get ours at the local feedstore(Blue Seal in Winchendon). I've
    also seen the stuff at other feedstores in the area (Fitchburg).
    
    Lynn
    

The Sterling Junction Home Center (Sterling Mass.) was having a BIG
sale on Morton salt for water softeners back in June, BIG sale as in
flags, streamers, signs, etc. It struck me as a big-to-do over such
non-exciting item. At any rate it caught my attention. 

Try them at 508-422-8636. They are also affiliated with True Value 
Hardware stores so you might want to your local True Value first.

Charly

    Thanks for all your replies. I found it at the farm store on Stafford
    St. in Oxford/Leicester. It's good to know they have it. They're
    less than 10 mins. from my house. I figured I would find it at a
    place that doesn't advertise under "Water Softeners" in the Yellow
    Pages.

On a simlar vein...

I have what's called a "green-sand" filtration unit to remove excessive amounts
of iron from my water. It gets backflushed with a solution of Potassium
Permanganate (KMno4) to remove the build-up of iron particles and "recharge"
the sand base.

Does anyone know of a relatively cheap place to buy this? Are there any others
out there who would be willing to periodically buy in bulk? (although you
don't want to keep large amounts hanging around because it is hydroscopic
(absorbs water from the surrounding air)

I currently get my supply from "The Water Store" in Westford, MA and they 
get $5.00/pound. A two month supply costs me $50.00. There has to be a
cheaper way. 

							Mark

re .52:

    Try the yellow pages under "Laboratory Supplies" or "Chemicals".

    Like .0, I purchased a home that has a water softener with no
    instructions.
    
    After reading alot of the notes in here relating to water softeners, I
    decided last night to get brave and plug it in.  I then managed to get
    it to start the back washing cycle.
    
    The question that I have has to do with the water in the salt tank. 
    How does it get in there?  Do I add it or does the machine add it
    automatically?  
    
    What happened after many drains is that it began siphoning the salty
    water from the salt tank into the water softener.  I expected it to
    replenish it later in the cycle, but it didn't.  This morning I went
    and looked and there wasn't much water at all in the salt storage tank.
    
    What is supposed to happen?  I guess I'll stop by Sears on the way home
    and hangout by the owner's manuals...  8-)
    
    Thanks.

    The way it worked on the Sears unit I had in a prev house was that the
    bottom of the salt resevoir tank had water in it which would cover the
    bottom "mumble" inches of the salt in the tank, turning it into a
    solution. When the softener went into a regen cycle, this solution
    washed over the resin bed [which took the minerals causing the
    hardnesss (forgot what it was) out of the water and traded sodium 
    for it (this is the reason water softeners were bad for someone on
    limited sodium)]. The solution from the resin tank then went down the
    drain. As the concentration of salt in the solution in the salt tank
    decreased, more solid salt disolved, which would eventually lower the 
    salt level in the tank. 
    
    If water is observed at the top of the tank, you probably have a
    problem.
    
    Eric

    Re .6
    
    We have a similar system.  The water in the brine (salt) tank is
    replenished as the last step in the cycle.  At the conclusion of
    the regeneration process, there should be about 12 - 18 inches of
    water in the brine tank.  Of course, if the salt level is deeper
    than this, you won't be able to see it.  Use a long rod to check
    the water depth in the tank, or just watch for condensation on the
    lower part of the brine tank.
    
    pbm
    

    RE .8
    
    Be very careful when you use the long rod to check the salt level.
    There is a mesh in the bottom that keeps the salt a couple of inches
    above the bottom of the tank. If you perforate that, the salt will
    fall into the water reservoir. I don't know what will happen then,
    but the manual on mine warns about not perforating it.

    Re .9
    
    The mesh is there to prevent solid chunks of salt from clogging the
    intake/discharge line to the resin tank.  Not all brine tanks have
    a mesh bottom; some have a baffle arrangement to accomplish the same
    thing.
    
    pbm
    

    If his is a Sears like mine (he mentions stopping by Sears) it does
    have a mesh.

    My model doesn't have a mesh, but I don't think that it is related to
    my problem.  
    
    My problem is that everything in the cycle seems to go well, but the
    water in the salt tank (which is seperate by the way) is not
    replenished.  I have been refilling it up to about 18 inches or so by
    using a bucket and water from the sink.

I wonder if there could be a dirty contact or a stuck valve in your
backflush cycler.  The first step, I think, is to get a copy of the users
manual on it, hopefully one which details the sequencing for the 
backflush cycle.  If they list a cycle for when the brine tank should
be refilled, maybe you can locate the valve and contacts that cause that
to happen and see if they work.  Maybe just watching the thing during
the period in the backflush when the brine tank is supposed to be
refilling will help.

I have a somewhat related problem.  My brine tank refills, but the water
is dirty -- dark scum collects around the edges of the tank and it smells
like maybe it is high in iron.  Perhaps unfiltered water from the previous 
stage is used for the back flush or perhaps the unit isn't cleaning
itself properly.  Unless someone has faced and solved this same problem,
I'll have to think about it some more.

	Luck,
	Larry

Larry,
Our water softener is there primarily for iron removal.  We were told to
add some "Res-Up" (brand-name) to the brine tank every month or so - just a
quarter-cup or so.  It has something to do with *really* cleaning the little
plastic beads in the softener that ion-exchange-removes the iron and hardness.

The rock salt we use is just hardware store stuff, not the fancy "purer" stuff
you pay twice as much for from the softener people.  As such, it does contain
stones and, I suppose, some amount of "dirt".  The brine tank is re-filled
directly from the well, I think.

Jon

    Re last few
    
    If you have a modern electronic programmable "head" on the resin tank,
    you might check whether the programmed cycle for the brine tank refill
    is correct.  It's usually set for 10 - 15 minutes.
    
    The crud-free Morton softener salt - the stuff in the yellow bags -
    is the same price as the old rock salt at local outlets in southern
    NH.  If you buy 10 bags, they'll deliver for free.  I usually get
    it at Policy Well & Pump in Windham on Route 28.
    
    pbm
    

    The level of water left in the salt tank to become brine for the next
    regeneration depends on how much `hardness' (various carbonates) needs
    to be removed from that particular water source.
    
    It may be 15" for one person and 4" for the next.  Obviously, it also 
    depends on the diameter of the salt tank (mine is 20" wide).
           
    __r

    
    	Hi, does anyone have experience with well water filters?
    I have a new home with a well and i getting sand particles 
    in my faucets etc... also once in a while i can smell sulpher
    in the water. any comments on what to do???
    
    	Also what are some good filters to use?
    
    
    
    			Paul

    
    	well, I know what to do about the sand granules in my water
    but why all of a sudden am I getting a slight sulpher smell??
    	Can anyone tell me why after a few months of living at the house
    I have this sulpher?
    
    				Paul
    

    This is probably covered already somewhere in this notesfile..
    
    Wells with significant levels of iron (do you live in MA/NH?) often
    foster a certain type of non-toxic bacteria that produces hydrogen
    sulphide.
    
    Bleaching your well will often clear up this problem for a significant
    time (it will eventually return - maybe not for a few years, and it may
    only be intermittent).
    
    __Rich

>>Bleaching your well will often clear up this problem for a significant
>>time (it will eventually return - maybe not for a few years, and it may
>>only be intermittent).


How does one bleach a well?  


                                      Kurt

>How does one bleach a well?  

Well, (pun intended :^)  my house was just recently built...and my well was
just recently drilled.  I watched the guys bleach my well.  They took off the
well cap, (mine is held onto the well pipe with bolts) and then they poured
chlorine bleach into it (they used a gallon of CLOROX).  Then they waited for
about 24 hours or so and then started running the water for another 24 hours to
clear the bleach out of the system.  Once the bleach was gone...voila...the
well was bleached.  My well is 300 ft deep...I believe the times may vary
depending upon how deep your well is.

I have also heard that somebody makes chlorine bleach tablets which you 
drop down your well...I have heard that these tablets may be better since
they drop all the way to the bottom and then desolve...but my water is 100%
clearof bacteria and liquid bleach was used.

Chris

I also had to chlorinate my well.  I used swimming pool chlorine as
recommended by the water testing outfit that rejected my water.
The procedure is as stated in .-1:
1. unbolt well head
2. drop a few tablets in.
3. Run a hose from an outside faucet back into the well and run for an hour.
Smell for chlorine odor.  If you can detect an odor of chlorine then you
have added enough otherwise add some more chlorine. 
4. Run water in each of your interior faucets until you smell the chlorine
out of each pipe.   This dissenfects your interior plumbing.  This step
may not be necessary for older wells.   Mine was new construction.
5. Wait 24 hours (I think).
6. run water from outside faucet (not into the well this time) until the
odor disappears.
7. run water in interior faucets until odor disappears.

    ...and then (re-)submit a water sample to a testing lab. 
    
    The builder forgot to do ours, then did it, and I did it myself twice
    until we finally got "passing levels" from the water tests.  
    
    	Ted

>3. Run a hose from an outside faucet back into the well and run for an hour.


Must it be run back into the well?  

My home inspector (P.C) told me that chlorine is not good for septic systems. 
Will a little bit hurt or should the water I run from the inside taps be
bucketed and dumped elsewhere?

Will chlorine hurt my water softening unit?

                                                        _Mike

             <<< Note 219.18 by JAZZ::BRODERICK "Just do it!!!" >>>
                -< chlorine and septic sys and water softeners >-

>3. Run a hose from an outside faucet back into the well and run for an hour.


>> Must it be run back into the well?  

I presume the idea is to ensure that the chlorine has mixed thoroughly with
the water and does a good job.  Is it absolutely necessary?  ... I dont know.

>>My home inspector (P.C) told me that chlorine is not good for septic systems. 
>>Will a little bit hurt or should the water I run from the inside taps be
>>bucketed and dumped elsewhere?

I did not have a problem (so far).  Its not something you want to do
on a regular basis.   As I stated in my note though, this is the procedure
recommended by the water testing company I used (Chem Serve out of Milfor NH)

>>Will chlorine hurt my water softening unit?

Dont know the answer to this one.

-Larry

re .36

>	This sounds like the 'deal' that we could have had about a month 
>ago.  High pressure non-sales call.  Called his 'manager' several times 
>and proceded to spew forth tons of garbage from his mouth as he tried
>to sell us a 5000$ water purification system for only 3900$.  It came with
>a 5 year supply of household detergent made for soft pure water, and free
>(woopie) installation.  


This is just what we went through a couple of nights ago.  I don't remember
the company name but the product name was Hydro-Quad.  A former neighbor in
Virginia purchased a Hydro_quad and has been very happy with it.  He didn't
get the big pitch and high pressure tactics though.

My question is, has anyone here in New England heard of or had experiences
with Hydro-Quad?  Having just 1 data point is hardly a good database 
to base any kind of judgement on.  We told the sales lady we would consider
it but would not be purchasing any system for at least 6 months.  She said
that would be OK and that we could still get the "sales" price then.

    Re .36
    
    You can probably find an equivalent system that is locally sold
    and supported; all water softener systems of similar design principle
    (e.g.: salt replacement) are pretty much the same.  Also, $3900 
    sounds high for a whole-house system.  It should be around $2K
    installed, unless it's really unique in some way.
    
    pbm
    

    Better late than never...
    
    I assume the idea of running the hose back into the top of the well
    is so you keep recycling the same chlorinated water.  You can also
    use the hose to wash down (and disinfect) the sides of the well
    casing.  If you just ran the water out on the ground, or whatever,
    you'd just pull fresh water into the well and lose all the chlorine.
    
    As a previous note said, if you can smell it in the water, you've got 
    plenty.  A gallon is probably WAY more than you really need.
    

    For those with an interest in this topic, there is an article
    in the current issue of Consumer Reports.  If you can get past
    their prevailing no-matter-what-you-do-it-will-probably-kill-you
    attitude, you may actually find a gram or two of useful information.
    
    pbm
    

    re: <= .20  "As a previous note said, if you can smell it in the water, 
    		 you've got plenty.  A gallon is probably WAY more than you 
    		 really need."
    
    WaterTest Corporation (Manchester, NH) recommends the following amount
    of bleach for disinfecting wells:
    
    	Assuming 6" well casing (make appropriate adjustment, if not),
    
    	Well Depth		Add this much bleach
    	----------		--------------------
    	up to 150'		One quart
    	151-300'		2 qts.
        301' or over		At least one gallon, and 1 cup
    				crushed swimming pool tablets
    
    They also recommend circulating the water back into the well for at
    least six hours, occasionally moving the hose to wash different
    parts of the sidewall.  Then don't use the well for at least 12 hours
    (48 is better).  (Take a weekend trip..)  And don't drain the
    chlorinated into the septic system..
    
    __Rich
    

    We just bleached the well at our new house (boy, did it smell
    beforehand!).  We have a couple of people renting and one was told
    not to flush the chlorinated water into the septic.  However, the
    other person got home first and did flush it into the septic system.
    
    What do I do now??  Continue to flush the well with fresh water and 
    then add one of those septic system additives??
    
    Or should I get it pumped out??
    
    Thanks,
    jeff
    

If your bleaching consisted of dumping a gallon of Clorox into the well (as
ours did), then you probably don't have to worry. We were told there was no
need to do or not do anything special. We didn't worry, and experienced no
problems. If you're worried, though, you can add some bacteria (like RID-X or
something) to your system when the chlorine smell has subsided.

IMHO, it is foolish to get involved with anything sold door to door.  The
only possible exception is if it is something that you want and can't get
elsewhere, AND you know that the offer price corresponds to similar things
that you can get elsewhere.  

From the description, Hydro-Quad fails 2 of those 3 criteria.  So what if
your neighbor in Virginia is happy with it -- if Hydro-Quad is the only 
system he knows about, his opinion is not worth a whole lot.

I'd suggest looking in the yellow pages (or in note 2000).  Buying from a 
place with a fixed address has the further advantage that you can *find*
them if you have a problem -- whether with the equipment or the billing.
Plus, you can more easily price compare -- door-to-door salesmen don't
generally want to give you time to do that.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I wouldn't worry either, after all lots of people put bleach into their
    septic system when they do the wash. Admittedly it takes a while for
    a gallon of bleach to be used, but I would think it should recover.
    
    __r

    Has Anyone ever heard of a water softener system called KINETICO sold
     by Premier Water Systems? This NO electricity system runs by water
    preasure,has two tanks providing 24hr softned water. I'm Im the
    dicision
    stage.  Any Input would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    

        Anyone know anything for real (first hand) about these devices? I
        need to soften the wate in my new house, and the conventional
        softener has too many negatives associated with it: 
        
        1) Sodium in the drinking water supply.
        
        2) Can't use the softened water on the lawn or plants
        
        3) Can't dump the backwash into the septic field, running it
        to the sump pump will cost extra $$$ in plumbing and ruin the
        lawn in that area.
        
        4) Buying and lugging all of that salt.
        
        The electronic unit seems to be a great alternative to these
        problems, IF it really works. All those minerals are still in the
        water, but they are actually good for you. The only disadvantage
        I've found out about is the scale in teapots. 
        
        A water treatment company here in the Chicago area is offering
        me one, with a 30 day money back guarantee. I'm tempted to
        give it a try and see, but I'd like to hear if anyone has any
        REAL comments on these.
        
        If I do get it, I will report back here and let everuone know
        how it does.
        
        Bob "designated sucker for today" Kaplow

Lots of modern technology is based on obscure principals and works for
mysterious reasons, so I'm not one to jump in and say "it can't possibly
work".  But I think it is very safe to say that the explanation given to
the author of .0 as to why this gadget works is nonsense.  Ions don't have
poles -- a magnet doesn't "align" them like compass needles.  And even if
it did, water is turbulent, so they'd immediately lose whatever alignment
they had.

Couple this with the broad claims (helps ANY type of water filter work
TWICE as good, works on oil & gas fuel, too), and you have something that
I would not touch except to carry it to the garbage.  Or to the Attourney
General's office.  No honest company could make such claims.

So how can they stay in business if they offer your money back if you
aren't satisfied?  Well, after 30 days, either you'll feel that your water
quality is better, or that it's worse.  If it's better, you'll keep the
device.  If it's worse, you might anyway, because you want to give it
more time or it's too much trouble to send the thing back.  In any case,
some people keep the thing, and with a large markup, I'm sure they can
make a good profit.

However, I'm all in favor of experimentation.  If you'd like to try it, go
ahead.  But I'd recommend buying your own magnets at radio shack.  That's
probably quite a bit less costly.  If the method really works as well as
they claim, you can probably get some good effect even with a home
jury-rigged setup.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re: .5

>    So how can they stay in business if they offer your money back if you
>    aren't satisfied?
>    	.
>    	.
>    	.

    You raise a valid point.  Probably more likely, though is something
    along the lines of "shipping and handling".

    Ever notice that the crap sold by "operators standing by" on TV is
    usually like $15.95 ($3.00 S&H)?  Even if you return the stuff, they
    keep the $3.00.  The postage to mail it to you is usually just a
    fraction of the $3.00, so the rest is more like guaranteed profit
    whether you keep it or not.

    I always thought it would be a great idea to sell some kind of trash
    like that and HOPE that people would return it.  I'd cheerfully refund
    their money (minus the Shipping and Handling, of course) and then send
    the same unit out to some other sucker.  If the product was bad enough,
    you could save a fortune on inventory!

    -joet

I imagine that a mailing list of people who've replied to scams like these
would be a pretty valuable item. So valuable, in fact, that you may wonder just
how I can offer my list for so little. But if you'll send me a self-addressed
stamped envelope (plus $1 for shipping/handling), I'll send you, absolutely
free, no strings attached, my list of people who have responded to all sorts of
sucker bait. You can then use this list to make millions stuffing envelopes in
your spare time, from the comfort of your own home.

    Somebody I know made extra money at home *unstuffing* envelopes for
    Carter and Van Peel (a.k.a. Gem Collectors, Cheese Lovers International,
    et. al.).  We all know what P.T. Barnum said, but the letters that
    people sometimes enclosed really bring it home.  People would say,
    "I never received what I ordered before, but I'm ordering more," or
    "The last thing you sent me was junk, but send me more."

    BTW, lots of checks were from people with professional titles.
    There may have even been some DCU checks.

I think they stay in business because there's an infinite supply of suckers
out there who are too embarassed to admit that they fell for a con like
"water magnetizers" (a gimmick that's been offered for many years - I once
read a detailed test of one used in a car for the fuel - it was worthless).

One has only to read the number of ads from places like "Carter and Van Peel"
('Why are we GIVING away this most expensive frammistan we've ever sold for
only $10?') to realize that it's true "No one ever goes broke underestimating
the intelligence of the American public."

					Steve

        Gee, thanks for all of the first hand experience in the last few
        replies :-(- Whatever happened to remaining silent if you don't
        have anything to say? 
        
        I've contacted several of this company's local references, and
        they all claim that the electronic softener works, so I've gone
        and ordered one (along with an iron remover that I KNOW I need, my
        water looks more like iced tea). I will report first hand here as
        to how it works, good or bad. 
        
        I'd still like to hear from anyone who has one of these devices.
        
        Bob

You're right, Bob, to complain about redundant/uninformative replies. Just one
saying "I read that it was a scam" would've made the point (which does have to
be made, by the way). In any case, please let us know if you do hear from
anyone who has actually tried one of these things.

	I have well water, it tests out excellent, except for just a bit
of annoying sediment.  Its not a lot, you can't even see the sediment 
when you pour a gallon of water and let it sit.  

Unfortunately, its enough to be annoying.  Every couple of months I have to
clean the inlet screens to our clothes washer to allow the water to flow more
freely, and I sometimes have to clean the shower head, every once in a while
one or 2 holes get plugged.  No big deal, its just getting to be a pain.

	Anybody have any good advice, or recommendations for whole house
sediment water filters?  How easy are they to install, etc...


Thanks,
	Chris

    	Re.-1
    
    	I went down to the local K-Mart and bought an "Omni Whole House
    Filter" and installed it myself.  The unit was on sale for $27.95
    (normally $44+) and it took me a couple of hours to install, but
    it is great.  It took me a couple of hours to install because the
    pipes were close to the wall and in order to install this thing
    you need about 3-4 inches of free space between the wall and the
    pipes.  It can be installed in either 1/2" or 3/4" pipes (kit comes
    with adapters) and it is very easy to replace the filter as you
    don't even have to shut off the water from the main.  The unit is
    about 6" in diameter and about a foot tall.  The top of the unit
    has a valve that you can turn to either 1) turn off the water, 2)
    filter the water, or 3) bypass the filter (to water the lawn, wash
    clothes, wash dishes, whatever).  To replace the filter you 1) turn
    the handle to off, 2) turn on a faucet in the house, 3) put a bucket
    under the filter to catch excess water, 4) press button at top to
    release pressure (good thing I have the bucket under), 5) use the
    supplied wrench to remove the filter housing, 6) trash the old filter,
    7) clean inside of filter housing, 8) install new filter, 9) replace
    housing on top piece and tighten with supplied wrench, 10) turn
    handle to filter, 11) press button on top to release pressure and
    to drain the air, and 12) when water starts coming out of the top
    stop pressing the button.  Now shut off the turned on faucet and
    voila new filter.  That whole process takes about 10 minutes, so
    you can see that it is very easy to do.  The filter should be changed
    every 3 months or when a noticeable drop in water pressure is noticed
    and, for me anyway, it lasts about 1 1/2 - 2 months.  I live in
    a new development and they are still building houses, so the water
    isn't very clear.  There are 2 types of filters 1) a white paper
    looking one which filters sand and SEDIMENT, and 2) a carbon filter
    to filter for taste, chemicals, and smell.  I find that I can't
    currently use the carbon/charcoal filter as after 2 weeks the pressure
    is half of what is was when I put the filter in and spending $7.00
    every 2 weeks isn't my idea of spending money.  I am satisfied spending
    the $4.00 every month for the other style.  When the project is
    finished, I'll try using the other filter again and see what happens.
    
    	BTW:  My best friend also installed one in his house and he
    told me that he changes his filter every 3 months.  I hope this
    helps and installing the filter is not really that bad.  Oh one
    more thing, when you remove the filter housing to replace the filter,
    make sure that the O-ring is on, because if it isn't you find a
    leak real quick!!! :^)
    the 

I had an Omni in a previous house.  It works well, but you would be well
advised to support the filter housing and connectors sturdily, as sometimes
removing the filter jar takes an incredible amount of effort.

The sediment filters can fill up fast, depending on how bad your water is.
Luckily, they are fairly cheap and are available from numerous sources.

				Steve

rep :-1,-2:

	Thanks for the advice.  Just out of curiosity, how long have you all
had your Omni filter?

Chris

I had had it only a couple of years before selling the house, though the
one before it was also an Omni and had been there for eight years with
no problems.

				Steve

    	I've had my filter in the house for 4 filters.  Let's see that
    is approximately 3 weeks for charcoal, 5-6 weeks for paper, 2 weeks
    for charcoal, 3 weeks for paper, I think I put mine in somewhere
    around the middle to end of October and the current filter (paper)
    has been in since 21-Jan-90 (16 days and going strong).  I will
    also agree with Steve on bracing the filter to the wall since the
    unit is a little heavy.  I had already done that and I didn't mention
    it in my response.  I think that by bracing the unit, it makes it
    a hell-of-a-lot easier to remove and replace the filter.
    
    	Remember, K-Mart has the filters on sale on a periodic basis
    (I don't get the paper so I don't know about the sales) as well
    as having the unit itself on sale.  I just happened to be in the
    store 3 weeks ago and I made a point to look in the plumbing section
    and sure enough they were on sale so I bought a couple (ok, so I
    bought 4 of them, well maybe 6).  Check the Sunday paper, assuming
    that it carrys the K-Mart flyer, or stop by the store.
    
    	Good luck and happy filtering.
    
    
    			Paul

I thought this topic sounded familiar ...


(literature from American Appliance MFG. Corp. - makers of the gas/electric
water heaters currently sold by Somerville Lumber)

"... The incoming water delivery tube on the DE-LIMER water heater has a
factory installed patented method for a constant control of lime build-up in 
the water as it enters the tank.  Here's how:  Incoming water contains
particles that are made up of magnetic molecules.  These molecules sometimes
face in different directions.  Since South (S) poles attract North (N) poles,
the molecules-minerals are constantly moving ... either attracting or repelling
one another due to their magnetic characteristics.  This animated movement
can place each magnetic molecule on the metal surface of your water heater
and can cause build-up.  However, when the water passes through magnetic fields
of your DE-LIMER Constant Clean System, the molecules are kept suspended
automatically, thus controlling build-up.  Results: Higher water heating
efficiencies.  Lower water heater costs.  You no longer have to drain your
water heater.  This saves time, energy, and money."



Probably cures cancer too ...

    

    
>>    Anyone know anything for real (first hand) about these devices? I need
>>    to soften the wate in my new house, and the conventional softener has
>>    too many negatives associated with it:
    
    
    Based upon my experiences with water softeners
    

>>            1) Sodium in the drinking water supply.

    The cold water tap in the kitchen is usually left unsoftened.
    
>>            2) Can't use the softened water on the lawn or plants
    
    The outside taps are usually left unsoftened, although I thought that
    was just because of the enormous volume of water they use.
    
>>            3) Can't dump the backwash into the septic field, running it
>>            to the sump pump will cost extra $$$ in plumbing and ruin the
>>            lawn in that area.
    
    Never had any septic problems, the backwash went right down the drain.
    
>>            4) Buying and lugging all of that salt.
    
    Not softening the outside taps saves most of the salt requirement.

    My folks (in Indiana, with incredibly hard, limestone-filled water) had
    a water softener connected only to the washing machine.  It really
    increased the life of things like towels.  The rest of the water they
    left unsoftened.  I could make a good case for putting the shower in
    the bathroom on the softened water - you pretty much had to open up the
    holes in the shower head every day or so due to the calcium buildup.

    We have had a regular water softener in our house for five years.
    Yes, it is a pain to have to buy and haul the salt and there is
    a minimal amount of sodium in the water. Enough sodium to require
    my mother, who is a heart patient, to bring her own drinking water
    from New Jersey (of all places). We have been pumping the backwash
    into the septic tank all along with no damage to it. We had it pumped
    last year and according to the guy who did it, the system was in
    excellent condition. We have a bypass valve that we use when we
    want to water the garden or the lawn. The reason why our outside
    spigots are softened is because I like to wash my car once in a
    while and the hard water leaves streak marks on the finish.

    i have a problem with air in my water.
    
    i have sulfur in my water, and have had a clorination/declorination
    system installed. The installer mentioned that a by product of sulfur
    is air/gas .. there is an air release value on top of the 125 gal
    storage tank, but we still have a considerable amount of air in the 
    lines... any help on best way to get rid of the air.... pipes bang
    every time we open the faucets..
    
    thanks

RE: .32


	There are several ways to get the air out. I have seen air purgers
(usually used in circulating hot water systems) these provide a "high"
point in the water line. They are installed with an air valve mounted to
the top. You might be able to make your own by making a loop as shown:

                         || (air valve)
                        +--+
			|  |
			|  +----------+
			|             |
                        |  +-------+  |
                        |  |       |  |
                        |  |       |  |
                   -----+  |       |  +-------
                           |       |       <--- Water flow
                   --------+       +----------




   > there is an air release value on top of the 125 gal
   > storage tank,

	Are you getting air puffs out of this? Most expansion tanks
have a bladder in them to prevent air injection or in your case air
escape. Does this tank have a bladder?

	Eliminating pipes banging is usually accomplished buy a air tube
located near the faucet. Looks like this. The air tube asorbes the bang..


				      +--+
				      |  |
				      |  |
				      |  |
				------+  |
			 Faucet          |
                                ------+  |
				      |  |

	Hope this helps


			Bill

Hi,

I just spent the entire weekend installing a water purification filter in
my kitchen.  It's the kind that fits under the kitchen sink cabinet and is
hooked into the cold water supply.  

Since I didn't want to drill a hole into the sink for the filtered water
spigot, I unscrewed the head from the spray attachment on the sink, pulled
it underneath the sink, screwed the head back on, and then taped it at the
highest possible level (about 10 inches from it's previous height on top of
the sink) to the back of the cabinet.

The connection looks something Like this:

                                                                      
                       __                                             
                       --  Purified water Faucet  
                       |         --
		       |         |  Regular faucet    
                       |         |                    
		--------------------------------------- 
				Counter top        
		---------------------------------------
                    |  |      __                                       
           Tap into |  |     |--   Old sprayer                           
            --- H2O |  |     |     taped upright under sink              
           |   |----|  |     |                                           
            ___     |  |     |                                           
             |______|__|                                             
         Filter     |                                                
                    |Cold H2O pipe                                   
                    |                                                
                    |
   

Well, the installation of the filter was fine and the purified water comes
out of the purified faucet fine, but now when I turn on the regular faucet
(not the purified faucet), the water hesitates for a fraction of second
before coming out.  It behaves almost like when you've had the water off
and then turn the faucet on after you open the valve again.  There seems to
be a little air that is expelled, before the water starts to come out.
Also, when I turn off the regular faucet, the water keeps running for about
a second until it finally shuts off.  All I can figure is that it might
have something to do with the spayer not being where it used to be.

The tap into the cold water line is in the place the instructions indicated
in the drawing, so I think that's okay..  We also checked to make sure we
were getting the proper flow (I think it was under a gallon a minute).
We also tried adjusting the little valve attached to the hardware that taps
into the cold water.

Any ideas?  A friend has the identical set-up (minus the spayer) and her
regular water faucet does not behave like ours.

Should we try to take off the old sprayer completely?  I don't understand
what that has to do with it.

Thanks for the help.

Diana                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             

    Going crazy looking at the same bug a few weeks ago, I think I can
    help. What is probably happening is that there is air in the sprayer
    hose. When you turn on the water, the pressure compresses the air. When
    you shut it off, the air is released and gets into the faucet asmy.
    This air must subsequently be purged when you turn it on next.
    
    What you should try is to turn the water on, then allow water to spray
    from the nozzle. Release the nozzle lever before you shut the water off
    and that should cure your problem.
    
    Eric

    I've heard from two other people offline who have suggested the exact
    same thing... I'll try it tonight and post results tomorrow.
    
    Thanks.

    That did it!  Thanks all.

    I have some maganese and iron in my well water.  One company, FLUID
    SOLUTIONS (Brian Hagopian) of Chelmsford, told me about the standard
    water softeners and then told me about an OZONE treatment.
    
    Basically, this device is a high voltage/low amperage generator that
    creates an arc that causes ozone to be created.  The ozone is pumped
    through the incoming water which forces the maganese out of the stream
    and into a collector.  It claims to be able to handle 10 gals/minute.
    
    The advantage is that there is no chemical added to the water.  No salt
    to add to anybody's blood pressure.
    
    Has anyone heard of this Ozone treatment before?  Is it a scam? 
    (Doesn't sould like a scam to me, but. . .)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    The company claims that it works mostly with bio-medical firms that
    require extremely clean water.  So, his specialty is treating water
    without adding chemicals to it.  
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Roger

    I assume what this does (in theory) is oxidize the dissolved
    manganese and iron in the water so it precipitates out and
    can be caught in a filter.
    I've also heard of a system that injects air into the water to
    get the same effect; the oxygen in the air precipitates the
    iron, manganese, or whatever.
    It sure *sounds* good; I've never actually heard from somebody
    who has one though.  Can this company (Fluid Solutions) give you
    some references to check?
    

    
       Ozonation of water is a valid process, to control bacteria, etc...
    without using chemicals, and also prevents scale buildup, but not
    sure about the metals removal.  It would be a good idea to get
    references for any company for any process they might propose.
    
              Mark

    Actually, this company was recommended to me by Thorstensen Labs.  They
    recommended Skillings and a couple of others, too.
    
    The references given to me by FLUID SOLUTIONS were things like The
    Lahey Clinic and a few bio-med labs.  If this idea sounds reasonable,
    I'll ask to see one of these units in a residential setting.
    
    Roger

Even if the ozone method is valid you should compare with the price of 
the airation systems.  
-Larry

	We have a lot of iron in our water, and went through a similar
	analysis -- softener, permanginate, oxygenation, ozination, magic...
	
	We went with the ozination system, from Fluid Solutions, in fact.

	The basic chemistry is sound.  There is no oxygen in the ground
	water, so the iron remains in the ferrous (ferric?) state.  When
	exposed to air (oxygen), the iron is oxidized to the ferric (ferrous?)
	state, which we see and taste as rust.  Both systems expose the water
	to oxygen and filter out the resulting iron particles before the
	water gets to its destination.  The iron can't be removed in the
	un-oxydized state because it is soluble.  A pressure relief valve on
	the filter tank exhausts the injected oxygen (it comes in through
	a venturi in the water line from the well). 

	The substantive difference between the ozone solution and the oxygen 
	solution (puns intended) is hold-time for the reaction.  For a given
	amount of iron in the water, there needs to be a certain amount of
	time allowed for the reaction to proceed.  If there isn't enough time,
	then the reaction occurs in your bathtub and cooking pots and clothes
	(I don't really care what kind of water goes down the toilet ;-).
	The fix is a holding tank to increase the available time for
	the reaction to occur.  I spoke with a supplier of the oxygen system,
	and he couldn't guarantee anything -- after installation, they
	might have had to return to install a holding tank in the basement
	for additional bucks.  I wasn't thrilled.  Ozone is chemically more
	agressive than plain oxygen, so the reaction takes fractions of
	a second -- no holding tank required (beyond the existing storage
	tank).

	For a few extra bucks (less than the cost of an extra holding tank, 
	or about a year's worth of salt for a softener), we went with the
	ozone system.  It works.  And I'm not poisoning myself or my septic.
	The installation was of good quality and workmanship.  The water is
	clear and tasty.  What more can one say?

	-andy kegel@krisis

    At last!  Somebody who has one!  Thanks for the information.
    A couple of questions:
    	What price range are we talking here?  5600, $1000, $1500, $15,000?
    	Do you have any idea how much electricity this thing uses?
    	What happens when you lose power - you just get untreated water?
    	How much floor space does the system take?

    May I offer a suggestion.  We also have high iron content in our
    well water.  We also have a great deal of sediment, mostly
    pulverized rock.  To correct the sediment, we installed a
    double filter with replaceable cartridges.  Much to our surprise,
    this also corrected our iron problem.  Water from your well,
    where the iron is in solution as earlier notes indicated, is
    pumped to the pressure vessel in your basement, where it inevitably
    mixes with air.  It then passes to the filter cartridges, which
    also seem to harbor trapped air in their multitude of spaces.
    This precipitates out the iron and traps it in the filter.  After
    about four weeks, the filters are dark brown-red with ferric oxide,
    and I replace them for about ten bucks.  The filter cartridge holder
    runs about $80 - 150, depending on who does the installing.  If this
    doesn't solve your problem for less than $200, then you can go ahead
    and install an oxygen or ozone system, with the filters on the front
    end providing cheap sediment protection.
    
    pbm
    

RE: << Note 3825.7 by CIMNET::MOCCIA >>>

>                                      ...  Water from your well,
>    where the iron is in solution as earlier notes indicated, is
>    pumped to the pressure vessel in your basement, where it inevitably
>    mixes with air. ...

      This  is NOT the case with most modern pressure tanks in which the
      water and air are separated by a rubber bladder.
      
>                ...  It then passes to the filter cartridges, which
>    also seem to harbor trapped air in their multitude of spaces. ...

      The only way air should get into the filter is when you open it to
      replace the cartridge.  If the filter holds any significant amount
      of air it suggests to me that the filter is not working correctly.
      The air entrapped when the cartridge is replaced should bleed  out
      almost  immediately.   At  least ours works this way -- filter and
      pressure tank.

What about manganese?  Is that supposed to be removable with oxygenization
or ozone?  When I bought my house, they had an oxygen system for filtering
out iron, but there were still high levels of manganese, so the former
owners added a salt filter system after the iron filter.  I never had it
formally tested, but it seems to work -- when I forget to put in the salt,
the dishwasher starts turning yellow, but it gradually gets clean again
when I stock up on the salt.  So that's ok.  But I'm surprized that the
oxygen isn't taking out the manganese along with the iron.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Price range -- always an interesting question.  I don't recall exact numbers,
but I think the following are about right
	softener (salt)		$800-$1000 and up
	permangenate		didn't even ask
	oxygenation system	$1200 or so (not including add'l holding tank)
	ozonation system	$1400 or so
	(all prices installed)
If the iron/manganese concentration is low enough, you can get away with the
oxygen system.  I used to go through about $150-200/yr in salt for a softener.
If a filter cartridge solves your problem, great!  Our Fe concentration was too
high;  I could taste it (and I hate the taste of iron in water).

Amount of electricity -- trivial.  The system uses the same timer head as
a water softener, and I would guess the timing motor uses most of the AC power.
The spark gap itself uses trivial amounts of current at high voltage and with
a low duty cycle.

Power loss -- I get nothing.  No power => no well pump.  If you're on city
water, the water will be treated with oxygen, but not ozone.  Thus, you will
get some treatment, but it will be limited.  There is a mechanical filter after
the bladder tank to remove the particulate iron (and manganese and whatever
else), so that will continue to work.

Floor space -- there is a box that is about a foot square and six inches thick
that is attached to the wall of my basement.  Think of it as the size of two
shoeboxes for, say, running shoes.  The box contains the spark gap that 
generates the ozone.  It is silent.  A 3/8-inch diameter hose draws the ozone 
into an in-line Venturi in the water feed from the well.  The other
part of the system is the filter column, which looks just like the water
softener resin column I had in the old house, with a similar timer head.  The
unit is backflushed each night, so there is a drain hose that runs to a drain.
The filter column is less than 5 ft high and about 8 inches in diameter.  You 
need an AC outlet for the timer head, but the spark-gap box runs off the same 
feed as the well pump (literally -- it taps off the relay contacts).  Again, the
system is silent when running (except for the water-flow hiss).

Manganese --  Yes, the system removes both iron and manganese.

Because of the agressive chemical nature of the ozone, it also disinfects the 
water, so I don't have to worry about well contamination (I still want to keep 
track of it, but I don't have to keep a constant watch).  In a stable community,
biological contamination may not be much of a problem, but in our area of new 
construction it's something I want to track, what with all the new wells being
drilled.

The unit does not soften water.  I suppose it has a mild softening effect, but
it should not be considered a replacement for a water softener.  I actually
found that to be an attraction in the sense that I don't need the sodium intake
and I don't want to put my septic system into salt shock.  And, our water is
soft enough that we can do without. (luckily).

One other thing -- with water softeners, people will often (should) tap the
outside faucets before the softener so that they water the lawn with hard
water.  Some people have it switchable so they can wash the car with soft
water.  The ozone and oxygen systems don't really consume any resources (salt)
so I just run the outside taps off the treated water.  This also means that
things that get wet are not stained with the iron in the well water (who wants
orange sidewalks or an orange foundation?).

If I haven't answered everything, give me a call (DTN 381-0428) or send mail.

	-andy kegel@krisis (also smurf::kegel)

    Good information!  Thanks a lot.  But yet another question  :-)
    
    What (if any) maintenance is required?  I assume at some point
    the spark gap must wear to the point that you have to change
    electrodes or something.  Other than that, I can't think of anything;
    is there anything?

As an owner of a Potassium Permanganate system, I wouldn't recommend it. I 
am very interested in following this discussion since I plan on changing to 
another system sometime soon.

My reasons for dissatisfaction are; 

	The cost of the chemicals. $30/bottle which lasts about two months.
	Not bad compared to softeners but I like the sound of the ox* systems
	which don't need anything.

	The capacity. This may be a problem with my set up, but it can not
	handle the load for us. The system is working fine, but it maxes out
	at removing up to 3.7 parts/liter. Since we test at 5 parts/liter
	there is still a lot of iron and manganese getting through. Enough
	to turn everything we own rust colored.

	Reliability. It clogs a lot!

Please keep us updated. (Let me know if you get one Steve). My neighbor recently
installed an oxygenation system by "Aqua- Pure". So far he says it is working
fine with no noticable staining. (You still reading this conference Jim? Care
to provide a first hand report?)

							Mark

> The spark gap itself uses trivial amounts of current at high voltage and with
> a low duty cycle.
[...]
>                                   The box contains the spark gap that 
> generates the ozone.  It is silent.  


When you say low duty cycle, do you mean it just sparks once in a while?
By silent I assume you mean to your ears -- have you ever checked to see if it 
shows up on, say, an AM radio?  
					>>>==>PStJTT

I took a look inside the box, and there's practically nothing inside.  There's
a transformer (in my case, it's 240V -> High Voltage), an enable/disable switch,
a neon indicator light, two mysterious plastic tubes into which the wires
disappear, and some small diameter plastic tubing for the air flow.

The two mysterious plastic tubes are about 2-1/2-inches in diameter, about six
inches long, and sealed at both ends.  Although it's not actually labeled, it
looks like the PVC plumbing, including the way the end caps are attached.  I
call them "mysterious" because I know only that a "spark gap" is enclosed 
within (perhaps a pair of spark gaps).

In short, there is really nothing to maintain, certainly nothing that I can
maintain (I have a background in EE, and without a schematic and some
equations, I'm hopeless ;-).

If it makes an audible sound when in operation, that sound is masked by the
noise of water moving in the pipes.  I don't listen to AM radio (any more, tho'
I remember Johnny Rabbit on KXOK, 630 AM, playing the Beatles), but I've never
noticed any radio or TV interference (I also have some flourescent lights in
the basement, so they'd add some noise).  I don't have a lawn to water (yet),
but I'll try some experiments to see if I can detect air flow or noise creation
during continuous, extended operation.

I do notice when it isn't working.  When I turned it off (disabled it, more
precisely) and left it off, the white plates started turning orange in
the dishwasher, and the glass teapot showed its contents of yellow-orange
*prior* to the arrival of a teabag.  When disabled, the unit consumes no
electrical power -- it continues to inject air through the mechanical action
of the Venturi, but it's only basement air, not ozonated.

The one drawback that I can find is that the faucets and commodes sometimes make
a hissing or knocking noise.  I think it's due to the air being injected by
the Venturi, and not being properly extracted at the filter column.  Once the
water is flowing (shower, garden hose, clothes washer), the air seems purged.  
It's just during the startup (which is much of a quick use).

	-andy kegel

    Hanging on my mail box when I arrived home tonite was a "Water
    Data Analysis Form" and a small plastic bottle. According to the
    form testing is taking place in my district (What district? The whole
    street is on private wells.) for the next two weeks.
    
    The form went on to say that I should complete the questionaire and
    provide them with a sample of my water...
    
    It also went on to say that my response *may* result in a Water Sales
    Presentation. The company manufactures water test equipment and
    purifiers.
    
    Sooooooo, ignoring my first thought on how to fill the bottle, I
    complied. Sort of. Tomorrow they will be provided with a sample of
    Evian natural spring water.
    
    I'll post any results.
    
    Edd

    
    Guess who will get a call from from a fllter company sales person?

    Could it be *me*???
    
    Of course!! And I'm real curious to see what horrible substances are
    lurking in 'my' water.
    
    I believe the form stated that the water would be tested for "HCH"
    and hardness. Does anyone know what HCH be???
    
    I set up my camera on a tripod and filmed myself pouring the Evian
    into their bottle with the completed form in the background.
    
    ...of course all of this will prove nothing, but I think it will
    be interesting to hear from them. The last person who wanted to 
    sell me a water purification system requested a sample so he could
    show me "just how bad [my] water really is". How did he know it was
    bad *before* he tested it???
    
    "Mr. Cote, your water is full of hydrogen!!!"
    
    Edd

Are you sure that wasn't HOH (a.k.a. H2O)?  Possibly HCH means hydrocarbons.
You should have used Perrier instead of Evian.

    ...but then how would I explain my carbonated tap water???
    
    ;^)
    
    Edd

    Well, surprise, guess who called last night?
    
    The end of the story is anti-climatic. The gentleman who called said
    the "QC reps" were in the area and would be glad to stop by and discuss
    the results of the test. I asked him if there was a problem with my
    water and he said the results were with the reps.
    
    Not wanting to deal with the "QC reps" I declined...
    
    Edd

        We got a call last week. My wife told the gentleman we'd had a full
    profile done on our wellwater when we bought our house 4 years ago. His
    response was we should have it checked every 4 months! Imagine that?
    The full profile cost us 120 bucks in 1986. We declined his offer to
    come out and check our water for us.
    
         Bob

    WaterWorks in Leominster is now called:
    American Environmental Laboratories, Inc.
    
    (508)534-1444
    (800)522-0094
    FAX: (508) 537-6252
    
    Prices/Services range from:
    $15.00 for Coliform Bacteria
    
    to 
    
    $500.00 for "All the above" and Priority Pollutants (13)
    Includes : Bacteria, Metals, Solvents, Radon ....
    
    
    (Comment:   This  is  neither a reccommendation for/against.  When i
    get my testing  done, I will probably get it done here.  My interset
    is for my old  dug  well, which has been unused for "about 40 years"
    or so (maybe more, since city water was added in 1936 more/less).
    
    -BobE
    

    We are in desperate need of a filter system for our well water!!
    The EPA Max for Iron is .3 and we are at 5.0!  Has anyone information
    regarding the following distributers of water filter systems?  We
    have been told mixed stories as to what we need for a system.
    The rates range from $1,000 - $2,000 and since we have a system 
    that does not perform well, from a vendor that is no longer in 
    business, we would prefer not to make the same mistake and check
    on references.  Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Friot's Water Treatment, Ayer, Massachusetts
    
    Fluid Solutions, Inc., Chelmsford, Massachusetts
    
    Skillings & Sons Inc., Hollis New Hampshire
    
    
    If you have any other recommendations, we live in Westford, Mass.
    
    Jean
    

    Policy Well & Pump in Windham NH.
    

William Phair, Harvard, Mass.

    re: .43
    I used William Phair - he sells water SOFTENERS.  For iron, I think
    you can get a better system.  (I also was extremely unimpressed by
    his abilities as a plumber.)  I'd look elsewhere.

A water SOFTENER like the one I have is used to remove iron from water.
Actually, it exchanges iron ions for sodium ions in a large FILTER which is 
backwashed with a brine solution. Hence the drawback to these systems is that
they add some sodium to your water, but I would only be concerned if I were
on a low-salt diet.   This system works well, reducing my iron from something
like 4.0 to 0.04.

BTW, W. Phair may not be the best plumber around, but he sure knows water
softeners inside-out. (He and his wife have also developed a treatment for
Dutch Elm disease)

Hope nobody minds if I revive this old note.....

My water stains the sink, tub, and toilet bowl orange. There's even
an orange cast to a potful of water! (I'm on city water in Gardner,
Massachusetts).

Just last week, I had an Omni whole house water filter installed.
It's made a big difference in how the water looks, and I can see
that the filter is catching stuff. (I can actually see little chunks
of rust caught in the filter, and the filter has an orange cast to it.)

I have no idea whether the water is fit for drinking now. I've
been buying bottled water, but I hear there's no guarantee that
bottled water is any better than what I've got.

I'd like to think that city water is required to meet certain
standards and that I don't have to worry about it. But I wouldn't
be at all surprised if I'm paying for unsafe water.

I was surprised to find out that the Health Department doesn't test
water and that it will cost $70 to get it done by a private outfit.

What do the faucet filters (like Water Pic) do? Seems like they all
toss about the word "purification," but do they take care of only
one or two bad things out of a list of many possible bad things? Am
I going to have to dish out $70 to get some peace of mind? 

Kathy

I lived in Gardner for a couple of years, and yes, they have rusty water,
I believe due to some of the 100 year old water mains in the city.  I installed
an insta-pure water filter bought at Spags, cost about 25 bucks.  replacement
filters are about 2-3 bucks.  Works well, but gets out only rust particles 
larger than the filter can screen.  It did make a good improvement, but you
will need to change the filter every couple of months for it to be effective.

The water is tested on a regular basis, don't know who told you otherwise.  
They're required to test regularly by the state, I believe.  They publish the
test results in the paper (Gardner News) in the legals section.  I'd
doubt the water is not potable.  (although it might taste or look or smell
too appealing)  Are they still having problems with those birds around the
city reservoir with thier droppings?

Steve

(Actually, that was an Insta-Pure water filter I had installed, not
an Omni.)

>The water is tested on a regular basis, don't know who told you otherwise.  
>They're required to test regularly by the state, I believe.  They publish the
>test results in the paper (Gardner News) in the legals section.  I'd
>doubt the water is not potable.  (although it might taste or look or smell
>too appealing)  Are they still having problems with those birds around the
>city reservoir with thier droppings?

The part about the testing of the water: I was interested in getting the
water that comes out of my kitchen tap tested. I've heard that the rust
in the water varies a lot from one section of town to another, depending
on the age of the water mains in the area. I figured that a general test
of the city water may or may not apply to the water available at my home.

As for the water being potable. Does anyone know what the state requires
of public water in Massachusetts? If you're on city water in Mass., can
you be assured it's of decent quality?

Does rusty water pose any health risks, or is it only a nuisance?

Also, if I get hold of test results of the city water, I'm not sure
what to look for. Can someone fill me in on acceptable standards?

Kathy

    Iron in the water won't hurt you; it's just a nuisance, and affects
    the taste.
    
    The things you have to worry about are chemical contamination (from
    industry, or whatever) and organic contamination (from a dead dog
    in the reservoir, or something).  
    Testing for the wide range of possible chemical contaminants can
    get really expensive.
    Testing for organic contamination (sewerage, dead dogs, etc.) is
    relatively cheap and easy.  A couple of years ago it cost me $15.00
    for a coliform test.  Coliform, by itself, is harmless, but it's
    an indicator that other harmful bacteria may be present.
    
    I'd just about guarantee that the city does a coliform test on a
    regular basis, maybe every week.  They probably have to do more
    extensive tests for at least some chemicals at less frequent intervals.
    I expect you can be reasonably sure that the water won't hurt you,
    unless there happens to be some chemical contamination that isn't
    being tested for.

Thanks for your replies.

I think I'll ease up on worrying about the water and trust that
the water is being properly tested and treated.

I read in one of the water notes in this conference that the Water
Pic really improves the taste of water. Maybe I'll look into that
a little more.

Kathy

Could anyone who has an ozone filtration system provide an update on how it is
working.

After reading through this note series, and looking at my water test results,
it seemed that an ozone system would take care of all my problems (iron,
manganese, and rotten egg smell), without chemicals or maintenance.  The
reason I was looking into it is that the existing water softener/carbon filter
is quite old and has started to become a maintenance headache.

Anyway I called Fluid Solutions and asked about the ozone system mentioned
here.  Brian was very helpful (spent about an hour on the phone with me). He
did NOT recommend an ozone treatment system anymore.  He has installed 5
residential systems and has had to remove/replace 3 of them.  His price was now
about $3000 rather than the $1400 quoted earlier.  He said this was due to the
need to add a booster pump, 300 gallon holding tank (that's a BIG tank, my oil
storage tank is 275 gal), and some other assorted goodies in addition to the
ozone system.

Any up-to-date information would be appreciated.

Thanks, John

    Kathy,
    Just out of curiosity, how much was this Insta-pure whole house system?
    What do the manufacturers claim it will remove?
    How long will it last under normal use?
    
    thanks,
    mike
    

Mike,

I don't know offhand how much the Insta-pure whole house system was.
I wasn't the one who handled it. It removes sediment (like rust).
Filters last between 3 and 6 months, depending on the amount of
sediment.

Kathy

I have a whole-house filter system from a company that had both under-the-sink
for kitchen and whole-house models. I can't recall if "Insta Pure" was
the brand name, but that sounds about right.

I got it on sale at Builders Square for $29, I think, based on a normal
price of $39. It came with everything I needed - compression fittings, etc.
for 3/4" supply pipe. If you had 1/2", you'd have to get some reduction
fittings.

The standard filter element is basically a great big roll of string in
removable cartridge form that goes into the main unit. Its a pretty slick
design in my opinion. It seems to be doing a good job - there was plenty
of rust-colored yuck on the filter element when I replaced it after a
few months. This standard filter element was about $5 or less for the
replacement cartridges.

They also had a fancier element for $15 or so. Something about if you have
odors or suspect biological contamination, use this one. The guy at the
store recommended against it for whole-house systems, because the flow
restriction was too great.

I stuck with the string filter type. The reduction in pressure/flow isn't
really noticible, except maybe that the garden hoze doesn't squirt quite
as far.

Erik

    	My well water is extremely corrosive even though it "tests" as just
    fine for human consumption. I've had to replace MANY pieces of copper
    pipe in the house because the water has basically eaten through the
    stuff. Several plumbers have told me it's normal in the area and that
    many people are having all the old (20-year-old) copper pipe ripped out
    and replacing it with new pipe (cost $2000-3000). Not an option for
    me..unless I win megabucks. So I'm wondering if these whole-house water
    purification systems can help reduce the corrosive effects on water
    pipes. Anyone know?

    Yes.  Water de-acidifiers work.  Ours ran about $500.  Our shower and
    sinks no longer turn blue.  - Vick

    RE: .24, .25:  Acid water...
    
    Our well has very acidic water, although otherwise free from
    contaminants and minerals.  When we purchased our house, we immediately
    had an acid neutralizer installed.  .24: This is *not* a purification
    unit.
    
    Our acid neutralizer is pretty simple.  More complicated ones are
    available.  Ours replaces the acidity with calcium-- essentially
    hardening the water.  If you have acidic and hard water, you can
    get units that replace the acidity with sodium, but this may have
    other health effects, if it is severe.  That's what water softeners
    do anyway-- replace calcium/manganese/etc. with sodium.
    
    I think we are lucky we installed the neutralizer when we did.  The
    valves on the well side of the neutralizer have all been replaced
    with stainless steel ball valves, since I got tired of replacing
    the brass bib screws every year when they disintegrated.  I haven't
    had to replace any other bib screws more than just once throughout
    the rest of the plumbing.
    
    Good luck!
                           --tom

    I have a whole house filter made by AMF Cuno.  It does a great job of
    filtering out particulate matter, specifically iron.  I've had it in
    for about 5 years and have a few observations to make:
    
    Lots of people make filters for these things.  You get what you pay
    for.  The sediment + odor filters are not that great.  Sediment filters
    alone seem to get rid of most of the odor in my water, and the reduced
    flow of the sediment + odor filter makes the water pressure
    unacceptable (the odor part is activated charcoal).  There are several
    types of sediment filters.  I have a LOT of iron, and the string
    filters are the worst for getting rid of it.  The fan folded paper
    filters are much better, but must be replaced more often (logical...
    they clog up with the particles that string lets go thru).  The best
    fileters and the most difcicult to find are some kind of plastic foam
    like a brittle sponge.  These are made by AMF Cuno.  Unfortunately,
    contacting CUNO in Meriden, Ct. tells me that the only distributor in
    my area for these filters will not sell to anyone who is not a plummber.
    So, I settle for the paper, when I can find them, and buy LOTS of them
    at a time.  
    
    It's real convenient to install a shutoff valve on each side of the
    filter when you install it.  This results in a very small amount of
    water that comes out of the pipes when you change the filter, and very
    little air that is let back into the pipes when you turn the system
    back on.  
    
    Lastly, DON'T USE BLEACH ON YOUR CLOTHES!!! (If I could make that
    double hieght-double width I would!)  After many rust stains, and lots
    of expensive Ralph Lauren rags, we found out the facts.  While chlorine
    bleach is great for removing stains most of the time, it causes iron to
    precipitate and settle permanently on your clothes.
    
    							-JP

    My well pumps out undesolved iron particulate matter and fine black 
    sand. I also use Cuno filters but have found that they will clog
    within a month and are not readily available at your friendly
    Ace, Servicestar, whatever hardware store. What I do to avoid the
    clogging/availability issues is to put cheap paper elements into
    the first filter and Cuno styrofoam elements into the second in-line
    filter. This triples the life of the Cuno styrofoam as all the sand
    and some of the iron get caught by the paper filter. The other thing
    I do to get around the availability issue is to by the Cuno filters
    by the case at Redlon & Johnson Plumbing Supply at 51 Glenn street
    in Lawrence Mass. This is not far off route 93 and near DEC's APO
    facility. Their phone number is 508-686-4139. They also have branches
    in Portsmouth and Manchester NH.
    

    RE: .27 chlorine bleach and rust stains.
    
    There are products to remove such stains from white garments even after
    bleach has been useed. We use one at home all the time. We have well water 
    and a lot of sediment and rust.
    

    RE: .29 "There are products to remove such Stains ......."
    
    Can you recommend any such products. My wife is at my throat to clean
    up the iron problem at our abode.
    
    Thanks
    
    John
    

    I use RIT Rust Remover.  It is a powder sold along with the RIT dyes. 
    It also works well when red dyes bleed onto whites.
    
    Elaine

 I installed a CUNO AQUA-PURE iron filter in my house about a year ago.
 There are no chemicals involved...it uses an aspirator to inject air
 into the water which precipitates the iron.  The filter backflushes every 
 two weeks. 

 Most Plumbing supply houses carry this brand. They have several 
 different models. I bought mine while building my house so I got 
 a big discount and paid  less than $600 for model 200. I had estimates 
 on similar brands for around  $1500-$2000. 

 I've had no problems, and no staining after a year of use. 

 See, note 845 has more information on CUNO and other filter systems.

    I looked for this in other notes, but wasn't sure what exactly
    it would be listed under.
    
    I have small blue speckles coming out of my faucets.  It only
    happens when I run the cold water fast.  I have no clue what
    it is?  
    
    Its a brand new house, only about 3 weeks old.  The builder told
    me to call the city, I called the city and I have to call back
    and speak with the chemist.
    
    Any idea, has this happened to anyone else.  I have this fear
    of walking into owrk one day with blue speckles stuck in my
    teeth, from using the water to brush them. haha.
    
    

    a smurf stuck in the water main?

    Are these speckles maybe greenish-blue?  Have you tried unscrewing
    the aerators on the faucets to see if maybe you have a lot more of
    this gunk stuck in the aerators?  After a new faucet is installed
    you (the plumber in this case) should remove the aerator and run
    the new faucet full-tilt to flush out any left-over particles of
    brass/etc. left over from the manufacturing process.  Try a quick
    flush without aerators and see if things improve.

    I agree.  If you have copper pipes the shavings from trimming the pipes
    may not have been flushed from your system.  If you have the newer
    plastic pipe, they are usually a greyish color.  Again it maybe
    shavings or "sawdust" from the installation.  
    
    I suggest removing the aerators and run the water until it becomes
    clear.  

    Thanks I will give it a try tonite.
    
    re -1... hahahahaha

I was reading in our dishwasher manual, and it says to fill the detergent box
to different lines, depending upon the hardness:
0-4 grains, fill to line 1
5-7 grains, fill to line 2
8+  grains, fill to line 3

"Great," says I, "I'll call the water dept. and ask what our hardness is!"

A woman answers, I ask what the hardness is, and she goes to ask someone else.
She comes back in a minute and says "64."  "That's sounds higher than I
expected. Is that measured in grains?" I ask.  She goes to check.  "The
<I-forgot-his-title> just checked the latest analysis, and he said it was 74
grains."

With that hardness, I figure I ought to put my dishes in the detergent 
compartment and fill the rest of the machine with detergent.  "Nah, let's check
the Home Work Notes File!"

Well, there's not much here except a hint in note 29.35 that tests may be in ppm
or mg/liter (the note author wasn't sure which), or they may be reported in
grains per gallon.  The numbers given yeild a conversion factor of 17, which
would allow me to convert my 74 to 4.4 -- much more reasonable from my
dishwasher literature's point of view.

Any comments?

								-- Chuck Newman

    Having just had a water test done, the results said that 0-75 is soft
    water, 75-150 is normal hardness and 150+ is hard water.  That makes
    the numbers you got from the town meaningful, but not the numbers
    from the dishwasher people.  Maybe you could call their hot-line and
    ask them?  Or just use the minimum and see if it works.
    
    Elaine
    

    A solution to the problem of brown dishes coming out of the dishwasher
    is to use Tang in the dishwasher.  Every N washes, keep the dishes
    in the dishwasher, and load Tang in the soad dish instead of soap. 
    You'll be amazed how clean they come out, and how clean the insides of
    your dishwasher will be.  ---Of course, this doesn't promote the urge
    to have a glass of the stuff.
    
    bob

    To continue the dormant discussion on water softeners...
    
    After checking the usual sources for water conditioning such as
    Culligan, I went to Builders Square to see what was on the market for
    the DIY'er.  I was pleasantly suprised to find two models that run from
    $400-$550 and are designed to be user-installed.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with either:
    
    WaterBoss - Solid State Deman Water Treatment Center
    		*softens
    		*removes rust and iron
    		*filters dirt and sediment
    		*monitors water usage
    		*$550
    
    Tectonics - Water Softener
    		*$400 - $500 depending on iron level.
    
    Both of these sound like great alternatives to the $1000+ alternatives
    from Culligan where you're "paying for the name", but I'm wary of names
    I haven't heard about before.
    
    Any experience with these or advice on the DIY angle would be greatly
    appreciated before I start cutting pipes.
    
    Thanks...Kevin
    

    
    Consumer reports 1992 buying guide covers water conditioners.
    Might be worth reading as they had some interesting info
    on the cost of installation * running these things.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    You might also want to check Sears in Nashua.  They seem to have decent
    prices on water softeners.

    
    
    Ok, I was quickly looking into a softener for sometime when I
    have some extra money.  For example, Sears has one for about
    $500.  The people from Rainsoft came to my house and quoted me a 
    price of almost $2000.  Now is one worth $1500 more than the other???
    
    JD

    >>Now is one worth $1500 more than the other???
    
    You're kidding right? Rainsoft will tell you theirs is worth the extra
    $1500 but I seriously doubt it. Either the water is soft or not when
    it exits either unit the extra $1500 won't make it any softer.
    
    I disconnected my SEARs sofener the day I moved in 8 years ago
    I hate that slippery feeling when I take a shower like I feel like I can't
    get all the soap off.
    
    -j

    
    
    In a round about way and plus in ink ($2000).  Thats
    what they quoted me for a system.  I have soft water, its
    just the Iron than needs to be taken out.  I placed some water
    in a jar about half full.  I  was going to use it for something,
    but just kind of walked away.  After the water evaporated, there
    was this red ring from where the water was down to the bottom.
    
    JD

    We have really high iron--don't remember numbers, but had orange stains
    when we moved in. We've used the Sears unit for almost 10 years and
     are pretty much satisfied. If you'd like details, drop a line....
    
    Lynn
    

re .4:

>    I hate that slippery feeling when I take a shower like I feel like I can't
>    get all the soap off.

This is an interesting, uh, "tactile illusion."  With hard water, the soap
reacts with the minerals to form a non-slippery, sort-of-sticky soap scum.
You're really getting more soap off with soft water.

    
    Your first move should really be to get a water analysis done
    by an independent lab.  There are several listed in these notes.
    We use WaterTest in Manchester NH, 1-800-H2O-TEST.
    
    PBM
      

    re.7
    I am well aware of that fact but I still don't like the feeling.
    
    I also don't care for the taste of sofened water I don't know if the
    minerals add taste(one assumes it does) but I prefer the hard stuff
    when it comes down to taste.
    
    -j

Re: .9

Softened water gives you sodium in place of the calcium and other "hard"
minerals.  Consumer Reports suggests not using softened water for drinking
and cooking.

			Steve

    Re: .10

>Softened water gives you sodium in place of the calcium and other "hard"
>minerals.  Consumer Reports suggests not using softened water for drinking
>and cooking.

    Oh, brother!  Does Consumer Reports also suggest that the 50 million
    homes in the U.S. go out and re-plumb ($500) their kitchen sinks to
    bypass the softeners they bought ($1000) to *improve* their water?

    Did Consumer Reports also report how *much* sodium was left in the tap
    water after a softener?  Did they conclude that this miniscule (my
    assumption) level was unsafe?  And how much tap water to we really
    drink anyway?  And how much sodium is absorbed by the food we cook with
    the sodium-ified water that the scum-bag softener added?

    grmblmblefrgrwmplgrtzgrmblmblefrgrwmplgrtzgrmblmblefrgrwmplgrtzgrmbl...

    blink blink

    Never mind.  I feel better now.

Re: .11

Well, they actually recommended this for people who were restricting their
intake of sodium.  I agree that if you have a whole-house softener, that
it may be unfeasible to replumb the kitchen sink to provide unsoftened water
for drinking and cooking.

I do happen to like the taste of hard water better - soft water tastes and
feels "slimy" to me, and I hate to bathe with it.  I'm glad I don't need a
softener in my current home.

			Steve

Some people like the taste of hard water.  However, when the water is so
hard that it leaves yellow or green stains on the fixtures, then it is time
to get a whole house water softener.  If the problem is just a matter of
taste, a small unit mounted on the kitchen sink is probably best.

I think the concern about salt intake is rather overblown -- sodium (or
maybe just salt, according to some recent research) tends to raise the
blood pressure, and a higher than normal blood pressure is an *indicator*
(not a determiner) of a higher than average chance of a heart attack.
The link between reducing salt intake and reducing heart attacks is not 
very firmly established yet, I think, although there is some evidence.

That said, my dad is on a strict no-salt diet for health reasons (to avoid
swelling in his legs).  When he visits my house, we buy bottled water for
him to drink and to cook with.  The health issues of sodium are real, they
just aren't real for everyone.  In particular, given that I have about
10 parts per million iron in my well water, my softened water is about
0.001% sodium.  I doubt that that is a health issue for anyone with a normal 
blood pressure, unless you have an obscure problem like my dad's.  


	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- And did you know that for about 1/3 of the population, altering their
choleterol intake has no effect at all on their blood cholesterol level?
That isn't advertized because if it was, most of us would falsely assume we 
were in the lucky 1/3.  Public health is an area with obscure tradeoffs.
While I think the hue and cry about sodium is overblown, that is better
than the alternative of having no one know about the problem.  LS

    Some whole house water systems come with pH balancers.  Usually
    your water is too acidic.  This in turns causes the copper in your
    pipes to corrode which is what causes the green stains on the fixtures.
    Hard water doesn't cause green stains.  Low pH also causes some of
    your stainless steel utensils to form rust spots.
    
    Anyone have any idea what basic material they add to your water to
    balance the pH?
    
    -al

    
    
      My brother just had a new well (and house) put in and he has
     good water but... When the water is heated through the coil in 
     the oil burner it creates a scale type junk that builds up in
     faucet heads. The water taste good and smells good but what
     causes scaling. This is the only problem with the water. It
     doesn't stain or anything else, just scales.
    
     BAL

    To finish the story....
    
    After writing note .01 I continued my study of water conditioning
    systems and finally had a unit installed yesterday.
    
    Culligan was the first vendor to come in to pitch his wares and does a
    great job convincing you of the benefits of soft water and does what
    turned out to be an accurate water test.  The downside is, their units
    are very expensive and they base their whole sales pitch on size of the
    service staff anf length of time in business.  They proposed a timer
    based unit at $1500 installed.
    
    Another local distributor called AquaScience proposed a Kinetico Model
    30 conditioner that is the high tech unit of the industry.  It is a
    demand control unit with two tanks and a salt holding tank.  This allows 
    you to have soft water at all times and it actually cleans(regenerates) 
    the other tank with soft water.  Although you're paying for the cost of 
    soft verses hard water, you use less water and salt because soft water 
    cleans better. 
    Another feature of the Kinetico is that is uses no electricity, it
    works entirely on water pressure for the regeneration process.
    
    What really sold me on the Kinetico is the report it recieved in the
    March 1990 issue of Consumer Digest(Consumer Reports also did a report,
    but did not rate the various systems, they only listed their features). 
    The Kinetico has a 7 year parts and labor warranty, 25 year
    warranty on the valves and lifetime warranty on the tanks.  This was
    better than any other unit.  This unit lists for $1350, but I was able
    to get it down to $1050 installed.  They also fincanced the unit for
    twelve months at 0% interest
    
    After two days of soft water, I already see a difference in the laundry
    and the lack of dry skin...money well spent!

    
    I also have a kinetico system. I got it for high iron and hard water.
    The turbine head compared to the electric model of other system is
    great but you must watch the tannin count in your water. This can
    clog (causes gumming) the turbine.
    
    As far is the sodium level we went from 30ppm to 180ppm with this
    unit. We installed a secondary unit to filter sodium under the
    kitchn sink with a private tap. Our sodium is now >10ppm. EPA standard
    for "safe" water is 200ppm or less.
    

    
    Last spring I had to have another "tank" added to my softening
    system to handle the iron and hydrogen sulphide. The original
    tank backwashes into my septic, this one they directed outside !
    (I wasn't home when they did it). I re-did it so it goes into a
    1-1/2 PVC pipe on a good pitch (not to freeze) away from the
    foundation. Anyone else have an outside backwash and how is yours
    set up ??
    
    Randy
    

    re.15
    Scale is caused by calcium in the water over time it will build up
    preventing proper heat exchange. I have seen a 2" pipe that had 
    scale build-up so bad the actual ID was about 1/2 an inch!
    
    -j
    

    Since thes topic isn't exactly talking about specific brands of water
    softeners any more, I have a question.
    
    We had a water test for our new well at our new house.  The only thing
    on the test that was high was Manganese, which it said may cause
    greying of laundry.  I don't want gray laundry!  What do I do to reduce
    the amount of manganese in our water?  Also, can I just put the filter
    on the washing machine?
    
    Elaine
    

    A water softener will take out manganese.  You'll need a softener, not
    just a filter, as the managanese is dissolved in the water.  Unless
    you wash only in cold water, there is no way (and no real point) to
    putting the softener only on the water pipes going to the washer.
    You'll have to soften all the water going to the water heater anyway, 
    as I doubt that a softener would like having hot water run through it.
    
    Just get a whole-house water softener and be done with it.  If you
    want, you can bypass the softener for the cold water to the kitchen
    sink and outside faucets.

    
    I've got a friend who needs to raise the pH of his water.  Is Sodium
    Bicarbonate the stuff added to the water to accomplish this?  And how
    is the amount to add determined?  Are there systems that automatically
    monitor the acidity and add just the right amount of buffer?
    
    JP

I believe that the acid-water treatment devices use sodium hydroxide (lye)
in some form or other.  Sears sells a relatively inexpensive one.

			Steve

Sodium carbonate or bicarbonate are usually used instead of lye since they're
less toxic and cheaper.

-Mike

    re .20, .21
    
    There is no need to use a water softener to take out Manganese!!
    
    I had the same problem with my water.  Every SOB I talked to told me I
    had to have a water softener.  They all claimed that water softeners
    take out Manganese, but most of the product specifications did not
    state the ability to filter Managanese, and none of them gave any specs
    on how well they filtered Manganese.
    
    I ended up with a maintenance-free filter, a special venturi to add air
    to the water, and a settling tank that takes the air back out of the
    water.  The air takes the dissolved Manganese (and iron) out of the water, 
    and turns it into Manganese/iron "rust".  The settling tank takes the air 
    back out, and also gets rid of an intermittant sulphur smell we were
    getting.  The filter takes all the Manganese/iron particles out.  The
    filter automatically backwashes itself every couple of days, and the
    wasted goes into the septic tank.  No salt to add, nothing to do or
    check.  No more brown scum on the toilets and shower, no more clogging
    up of screens in the dishwasher, clothes washer, etc.
    
    Total cost of the filter, venturi, settling tank, plumbing, shock the
    well, and all installation was $1200.  Cheaper than any water softener
    (installed).  No salt intake.  I think the filter is a McLean.  
    
    Water softener salespeople = snake oil salespeople (my experience)
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    I was about to say that we don't need a water softener, because our
    water is not hard.  This setup sounds a bit pricey, but interesting.
    
    What happens to the particles in the septic tank?
    
    Elaine

    I imagine the particles will sink to the bottom and get pumped out
    eventually.  Some may go into the leach field, which would hasten
    clogging up the pores.
    
    Yes, $1200 is not cheap.  I know you and your husband to be avid DIY's,
    so you could probably save a few bucks buying the equipment and
    installing it yourselves.  I don't believe a water softener would be
    any cheaper.  You could weigh the cost of the filter against the
    eventual demise of your plumbing as the minerals build up inside the
    pipes, and against the hassle of cleaning brown stuff off your toilets and
    showers.
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

	    That Tang idea just stimulated a memory.  We used to use
	unsweetened cool aid to clean pots and pans (I think) when I 
	was in the Navy.  It's a vague memory.

					Tim

    Speaking of Tang, I tried using it in my dishwasher, as recommended in
    here to remove the built-up film in our glasses, and it didn't work. 
    No difference whatsoever.  I guess we'll have to drink the rest...
    
    John.
    

    It takes a LOT of Tang to do the job, at least in my dishwasher - I
    thought the idea was one of those urban myths after trying it once by
    just filling the detergent dispenser with the stuff and running the
    machine through a cycle, which did nothing discernable.  However, when
    I tried again with half a jar of Tang dumped into the bottom of the
    dishwasher, it made a REAL BIG difference!  When I ran the old plates
    through to remove the discoloration, I also used half a jar, and it did
    the job.  of course, I had to run the plates through a cycle with
    normal dtergent to get rid of the fake-orange-coloring smell of the
    Tang, but it was worth it.  That was months ago, and the plates still
    look fine.
    
    /Charlotte

Tang is mostly citric acid (and sugar and flavorings), I think.  If you can
find straight citric acid, you won't have to put up with the smell or color,
and it might be cheaper.

-Mike

    Yeah, but I am usually in a hurry - the grocery store stocks Tang, and
    I have to go there anyhow.  I don't know who might sell citric acid,
    but I would have to find someone and make a special trip to get it (I
    don't usually have a car available).  After seeing what the Tang does
    to the scrunge in the dishwasher and on the dishes, I wonder what it
    does to your stomach... 
    
    /Charlotte

    re last
    
>>    don't usually have a car available).  After seeing what the Tang does
>>    to the scrunge in the dishwasher and on the dishes, I wonder what it
>>    does to your stomach... 
    
    
    	Salt and vinegar do a job on copper tarnish too. It doesn't stop me
    from putting salad dressing  on my salads.
    	Your stomach naturally contains (gasp) hydrochloric acid! 
    
    	Just because something acidic reacts with something basic doesn't
    *necessarily* mean that it is harmful to your health.

    If you're getting your Tang from a supermarket, wander down the spice
    aisle and look for "Fruit Fresh", used in preserving fruits.  I seem
    to recall that it is citric acid.  Tang is also supposed to do a good
    job on fiberglass tubs, but I've never tried it.

Citric acid is sometimes sold as "sour salt."  I'm told it's used in
Jewish cooking.

    
    Re .38
    
    Not only is the stomach an acid-bath, but your body uses citric and
    ascorbic acid to absorb and metabolise the IRON in your food.  Perhaps
    you could dump a bottle of lemon juice in the dishwasher instead?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    (A limey)

re .37:

I've seen citric acid for sale in the supermarket, but I didn't remember
what it was supposed to be used for.  Canning and "sour salt" rings a bell.

Oh, I believe all the energy of the body is converted into citric acid as
part of the metabolism cycle of sugar->CO2+energy (it's a halfway point),
don't let the word 'acid' scare you.

-Mike

    I've used something called (I think) "Disahwasher Glisten" to clean
    mineral deposits from a dishwasher.  The dishwasher was brown inside
    before we used it and looked like new afterwards.
    
    We found this stuff at Spags (of course).
    
    -Mike
    

RE:  Acid neutralizers...

We have an acid neutralizer that raises the pH from 4 to about 6.5, which
uses calcium carbonate.  (I'm not certain about the pH numbers; this is
from memory).  This in fact "hardens" the water with calcium,
but since we have essentially soft water it isn't that bad.  The
alternative (at the time) was a more complicated system that used lye
and replaced the H+ with sodium rather than calcium.  Our water was already
high enough in sodium that we decided to take the simpler calcium carbonate
approach.  I can tell when our unit needs more calcite from the green color
of the bath water :-}.

Are there any other novel acid neutralizers out there today?  I would
consider a lye-based system if it were simple enough.

                       --tom

We had high levels of both Iron and Manganese.  Got all the sales pitches
and water analyses from the "expensive" water softener and filter companies.
We consistently got prices of $1200 to $2000 for either "quality" softeners
(like the Kinetico) or for the precipatation filters (venturi with filter).

To make a long story short, one weekend we went to Sears, bought a computer
controlled demand-monitoring water softener on sale for about $400 bucks,
drove home with it, and installed it in about 3 hours on the weekend.

All our water problems are solved, and have stayed solved for over six months
now.

Sure, the Sears unit isn't as good (mechanically speaking) as the Kinetico
But, as Consumer Reports said, all the water softeners produce the same
result using the same technology. And as somebody said in .-n, soft water
is soft water!

Perhaps the Kinetico would have lasted me 20 years and the Sears unit will
last only 5.... who knows?  But at this price I'll at least be even, if not
to the good, if I have to totally replace the Sears unit 3 times during
that 20 year time period!

Peter

I haven't found any notes on reverse osmosis water filters so I decided to
start a new one.

I am considering putting in a reverse osmosis (RO) water filter. It would
provide drinking water via a faucet in the kitchen sink. the advantages of this
kind of filter is that it procuces high quality drinking water. It is one of
the best filtration methods for removing almost all kinds of stuff, including
organic compounds, herbicides, pesticides, lead, etc. 

It works by running water through a membrane. The membrane allows water
molecules to go through it via osmosis, leaving the impurities behind. The
water is passed through a small sediment filter before the membrane and a
carbon filter after the membrane. The rate of flow through the membrane is
slow. Most filters produce around 5-8 gallons per day of drinking water, under
normal use. The water coming out of the filter goes to a small holding tank
from which it then goes to a water faucet.

Comsumer Reports had an article on this kind of filter in their Jan 90 (or Jan
91 - can't remember) issue.

Does anybody have one? If so, could you describe your experiences with it?
The holding tank capacities for different brands of RO filters are usually in
the 2 gallon range. I presume that 2 gallons is enough for home use. Has the 2
gallon capacity been enough?

I have looked at other filters based on plain sediment filters and carbon
filters and have not been satisfied. We have a private well and have had
problems with it in the past which were fixed by drilling a new well ($$). We
currently only have low ph (6.2) and high manganese (2.3 ppm - yes, 2.3 ppm)
as problems but my wife is paranoid about drinking the well water. We have been
drinking Poland Spring water (delivered) for 5 years - it's time to change.
Poland Spring water is getting more expensive, our consumption is going up, and
the 6 gallon bottles are feeling heavier each year.

So, let's talk about RO filters. Thanks.

P.S. I have read all the notes about water softeners, etc. We currently have a
softener to remove the manganese.

I have a Sears RO unit (the larger of the two under-sink models that they
sell).

Summary:

	2 gal tank.
	16 gal/day rating, perhaps 20 gal/day in practice.
	Requires a charcoal pre-filter if your water is chlorinated.

The two gallon tank is sufficient, with a caveat.  I use the water for
drinking, cooking, the fish tank, and the humidifier.  In the winter time, I
keep two one-gallon jugs filled.  I fill the humidifier from these, plus
another half gallon from the filter faucet, and then refill the jugs when
enough water has been made.  Thus, I have a peak instantaneous supply of
four gallons.  Without the humidifier (in the summer), I don't use the jugs.

I've had mine for four years, and I'm starting to get white dust again from
the humidifier, so I think it's time to replace the filter elements.  The
catch: Sears wants $150 for a set of filter elements.  The unit was $350
new, so this gives you an idea of the relative cost of filter elements.  I
seem to recall that you're supposed to replace the filter elements every two
years.

I installed the unit myself.  I've had two leaks, one due to bad plumbing on
my part, and one due to the failure of a brass coupling in the unit (easily
replaced).

I'm happy with it, except for the cost of the replacement elements.

    Have you had your well tested to justify buying bottled water?

    
    I seriously thought about these also. In fact I ordered the sears unit
    and sent it back when I realized all the constraints. Your water
    has to meet a lot of specs for the filters to last any reasonble length
    of time. The one spec that sticks in my head is water hardness.
    
    A second thing to consider is that (so I'm told at a home show) is that
    RO also strips out a lot of the stuff in the water that's good for you
    to. The person convinced me that if you don't have something BAD in
    your water don't take everything out, just in case.
    
    So I'm still stuck with my water-pick facet filter :-).
    

If the question is how to get good water, then it sounds like your
softened well water is fine and an RO filter would be annoying overkill.

If the question is how to make your wife willing to drink something that
comes out of your well (instead of someone else's well), then the RO filter
sounds like a good idea.  Maybe by the time the filter elements need to be
replaced she'll be ready to try straight softened well water.  

	Luck,
	Larry

PS -- Thanks for posting the data on RO filters!  

	Has anybody ever heard of the HYDROMAGNETIC Water System?  This
	seems to be the only salt-free water conditioner I've heard of, 
	but I am real skeptical.  It uses a ceramic magnet and a KDF-55
	filter.  It is supposed to cut calcium by 50% (because calcium
	is good for you) and eliminate all other unwanted bacteria and
	environmental pollutants.

	The salesman told me that in California there are areas where 
	the traditional water softeners are illegal because the salt 
	content of the water is too high and that this type of 
	legislature may soon be spreading to other parts of the country.

	The main drawback is cost (quoted $2,700 installed).  He cost 
	justified the unit versus a softener by adding the cost of salt
	over a ten year period.  Hence, Culligan ($2000) plus 10 years
	of salt ($1500) equals $3500, a savings of $800. 

	Thanks,
	Rick

Sounds like a scam to me.

	Steve

I can easily imagine a magnet removing iron.  I balk at the idea that a
magnet can be used to remove calcium "and eliminate all other unwanted 
bacteria and environmental pollutants."  That's quite a sweeping claim,
and if it were true, the inventor would get rich without having to dink
around with home water softeners.  Salt softeners remove iron/manganese,
but they are useless for bacteria and most pollutants.  Methods for 
removing pcbs and other nasty pollutants are quite expensive.  


	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Two years ago, I bought and installed a water softener from Sears in
    my new home. About two months ago, I noticed that the unit doesn't 
    seem to be producing soft water any longer.
    
    The unit is set to regenerate twice a week. As far as I can tell, 
    it kicks on and completes the 2-3 hour regeneration cycle just fine...
    However, the water softener isn't using any of the salt. (The rock 
    level inside the tank has remained constant over the last two 
    months, and I can feel the hardness back in the water.)
    
    I also noticed that water is constantly dripping out the drainage
    tube in the back of the water softener.
    
    Has anyone had any similiar experiences? 

    The following is from memory of a house I sold in 1987 that had a Sears
    water softener. When the regen cycle begins, some of the salt from the
    bottom of the tank is used (has gone into solution) and fresh water
    comes in. This will allow the salt to create a new solution by disolv-
    ing some more salt. As this salt disolves, the salt level should drop
    in the tank. If it isn't dropping, either its not going into solution
    or a "salt bridge" has formed at the bottom of the tank and is
    preventing the salt from dropping. You probably could scoop the salt
    out of the tank (not a fun job) to see if it does reach the bottom or
    GENTLY polk through the salt with a wood implement to see if it reaches
    bottom.
    
    A def solenoid valve in the system might not be allowing the salt
    solution from being drawn into the regen process and this would also
    prevent the level from dropping, and the softener not to work.
    
    Eric

    Thanks for the quick reply. I'll check for the "salt bridge" 
    when I get home this weekend. (I live in Lake Havasu City, AZ,  
    about 150 miles south of Las Vegas, where life without a water
    softener is _not_ a desirable condition...more minerals and iron 
    than needed for 100% RDA. :-) )
    
    -John- 

I've been having quite a bit of trouble with my water softener lately -- 
my water settles out brown on the bottom of any dish if the softener 
isn't working.  

What was happening with mine was that it got sufficiently gunked up 
inside that it wasn't backwashing.  However, the brine refill cycle
still worked fine.  Result:  after about 5 failed backwashes, the 
water is pouring out the top of the brine tank.  

I had professionals fix it once.  They charged me over $250 to replace
the resin inside and chip out the iron deposits.  The next time it
happened, I popped the valves off the top and dumped Iron Out down
inside until I got it ungunked enough that it would backwash.  Then I
dumped Iron Out into the backwash water until it seemed to work ok again.

By the way, I found that I could use gravity to help -- if my softener
is just barely sucking in brine during the backwash cycle (or just
barely not), I can help it along by raising the brine tank.  That 
requires emptying the water out, of course.  It's a real pain.  

Anyway, I think you should check to see if your softener is actually
sucking in water during the backwash cycle.  If it isn't, then you
possibly have the same problem I do.  If it is, then try adding more
salt.  I got into trouble by not keeping enough salt in my tank -- I 
was waiting for the last of the salt to dissolve, but it never did.
I'm still trying to figure that one out.  How can salt pellets not
dissolve in water?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    My softener has a venturi gizzie that draws the water from the
    brine tank (at least I think that's its purpose). About once a 
    year it gets gunked up with crud and has to be taken apart and 
    cleaned.  No idea if your unit would have anything similar....
    

    I am planning to install a water softener in my house because I am
    tired of cleaning hard water stains off of everything the water touches
    including my cars. I have one big question which was asked in .8 but
    never answered. Where do all you people who use softeners have the recharge
    (waste) water going? I have a septic tank and the guy that services the
    system told me that I was asking for trouble if I put that salt water in the
    tank. Salt eats concrete, it destroys bacterial action necessary for
    proper system function. You can't send the water out in the yard cause
    the salt kills plantlife. I wish I had city sewer. Can anyone address
    this question??
    
    Thanks,
    Phil
    

    Well, I've been putting the discharge into my septic system for a
    few years now, with no noticable bad effects...maybe I haven't
    been doing it long enough for the bad effects to show up.  I
    can't say that I particularly like doing it; somehow or other,
    it seems like a bad idea even though my experience (thus far) has 
    been okay.

    
    My impression was that salt does not eat concrete, but causes more
    freeze/thaw cycles that eat concrete (which would not apply to a septic
    system). Is this incorrect?
    

    I ran the question about septic system impact by three softener outfits
    who deal in the Southern NH area. Their response in general was that
    the amount of added salt is so small it is insignificant. In some cases
    it can even help with the treatment process. They went on to say that
    with some soils the absorptive qualities can be affected, some for the
    better, and some for the worse. They also added that the reduced use of
    soap will help the septic system much more than the salt will hurt it.
    
    I have Culligan, Rain Soft and Lindsay coming over this week. They
    won't quote anything before testing your water. Wish me luck.
    
    Phil
     

	Re: .57 (2 years ago...)
	I had a Kinetico system installed this past Friday.

	In an earlier house, I had a clock-driven system, which would recycle
	itself every 6 days, or more often, which was too often for me.

	So I decided to try the water-consumption schedule scheme.  But it's
	too early to tell you how well it works, since it hasn't cycled yet.

	Anyhow, the literature suggested the added sodium was a small 
	percentage, and only houseplants and people on low-sodium diets need
	concern themselves.

	I plan to dump the 40-gal of discharge water into a drywell, just
	because it seems better than dumping it into the septic tank (cf .59).

	As an aside, I had earlier noticed that my pump takes too long to raise 
	pressure, so I asked the local well-digging consultant for advice.  He 
	says water from a deep well doesn't need all those $2400 Kinetico 
	deacidifiers, softeners, and iron removers.  The well-digger advised 
	replacing my 30' well with a deep drilled one, which they would be happy 
	to install.

	I guess we must run our water through a pile of stones, either deep
	within the Earth, or in tanks in our cellars.

	Regards, Robert.

	PS  Re .61: Good luck.

    re: .62
    Pardon me, but I think that well driller is trying to sell you a
    new well.  I've got a 240' well, and it has an iron problem.
    My uncle has a 140' well, and the water is *very* hard.  In fact,
    I'd expect water from a deep well to have more, not less, dissolved
    whatevers in it than water from a shallow well, in general.
    
    Now, for your particular geographical area what the well driller
    said might be true, and he may be basing his statement on his
    eperience in that area, but I'd be a bit surprised if a deep well
    gave you better water than your shallow well.  About the only
    thing a deep well definitely has going for it is less suseptibility to 
    contamination.

    RE .61
    
    Try Policy Well & Pump in Salem.  Same product as those better-known
    guys, but costs a good deal less.  They OEM the controls and assemble
    their own system, much like those el cheapo PC vendors.  I think
    Harold Allison is the guy to talk to.
    
    PBM
    

>      	 ... water from a deep well doesn't need ...
>	deacidifiers, softeners, and iron removers.  ...
      
      This  could  be  true  for your specific location, but it is not a
      valid generalization.  My pump hangs at 200' (I measured the  pipe
      when  we  had  to pull it a couple years ago!)  and the water does
      require deacidification, softening and iron removal.  

    Re: Phil
    
    If you could,  Put in what each of these people had to offer for
    price ranger and cost.  I'm looking at getting my rust rings cleaned
    up sometime and any additional input would help.
    
    JD

    
    Re: .64
    Thanks for the info. I will check with Policy Well and Pump. Drive by
    twice a day. Never thought of them even though I see skids of bagged
    salt stacked out in front of the place.
    
    The guy from RainSoft called last night but he just left a message and
    not a number. I will post all the information I receive from the
    dealers here as I get it. In the meantime I'll just keep scratching my 
    dry skin...
    
    Phil
    

    I took a sample of my water to Policy Well and Pump yesterday. They
    tested it for free while I waited. They gave me a detailed report
    indicating ph, hardness, iron, manganese, copper, hydrogen sulfide,
    turbidity and total solids. I asked them for recomendations and a cost
    estimate. They sell Aquatron Water Conditioners. They are all
    automatic, which means they meter the water flow and only regenerate
    after X number of gallons has been treated. They appear to be top notch
    units and I would not hesitate to buy one. Tank and resins are
    guananteed for 10 years, everything else including installation is one
    year. My water is 15 grains/gal hardness with no other problem.
    Either one of the following units would correct the problem.
    
    The Aquatron Model AWS 1035, 23,000 grains, 10 GPM, for $1045.00
    The Aquatron Model AWS 1044, 40,000 grains, 12 GPM, for $1295.00
    Prices are installed. You may install it yourself and save $200.
    Pipe fittings are 1 inch threaded PVC, salt tank is a separate unit and
    holds 240 pounds of salt. Voltage is 115 VAC consuming 100 Watts.
    
    This is a professional outfit dealing quality water products for 25
    years. Stop in and see them, I think you will agree.
    
    
    Phil
    

    Re .68
    
    You have described the system we bought for our house in Atkinson.
    Installed 1987, no repairs needed to date.  Keep the tank filled
    with salt and change the backup 9V "transistor" battery once a year.
    
    PBM
    

    Well the guy from Rain Soft came over last Saturday, did the water test
    and found 10 grains per gallon. After the sales pitch and all the hard
    water demonstrations we decided to go with them. What sold us was a 90
    day deferred payment plan and more importantly the entire unit,
    everything, even the salt tank is guaranteed for LIFE. This is a unit
    that you will use forever. It's a timer unit, 24000 grains. Rain Soft
    uses a newly developed resin in the tank that is not subject to
    breaking up into fine particles and being washed from the tank. The
    head is all brass if that matters to you. The installed price is, 
    (sit down) $1895. I had to swallow hard myself. $2395. for one that
    meters the water. If you think that price is steep, and I did, they
    offer you "Free" a 3 year supply of soap products to include window
    wash, shampoo, hand cleaner, laundry soap and the like. All this soap
    is of course designed to be used with conditioned water. After they
    show you that you spend about $800. on soap over 36 months that brings
    the price of the conditioner somewhere around $1K. What can I say, I'm
    a sucker for sales pitches. Not to be confused with high pressure.
    One more thing, he found some sand in the water and recommended a
    filter be installed ahead of the conditioner for an extra Hamilton.
    
    Lindsay and Culligan have never called me to date..
    Cheers,
    Phil
    

    We had a rainsoft guy come through our house last year and seeing how
    my wife thought that it was a cheap way of getting the water tested
    (this is what they advertised - FREE WATER TEST), we were determined
    before he walked through the door that he wouldn't smooth talk us into
    a system (not knocking what they were selling).  He arrived before
    dinner (keeping us from eating it) and didn't leave until after 9:00.
    The guy was amazed to find that our water had a normal Ph and almost no
    sediment - he talked Parts Per Million and we were in the 50 to 100
    range - but he really didn't seem to know what those neat colored
    chemicals that he was mixing with the water were or much more to prove
    that we needed to do something to make our water better.  However he 
    tried to sell us both a filter and water softener.  He started at $5000
    and started cutting.  At about $3200 the filter was taken out of the
    equation.  His last line was that they were installing 23 water
    softeners in N.H. and would reduce our price to $1250 if he could sell
    just 2 more so that they would be shipped together as a lot of 25, and
    which would allow him to make his commission, but we had to sign for it
    right then and there.  I told him that there was no way I would sign
    for one based on what he showed me (he even said that our water was
    cleaner than most that he'd seen) and I sent him on his way.
    
    So, how long did you have to barter for your price?

re .71:

So was the free water test worth postponing dinner for?

    I don't think I'd do business with anyone who would offer price $X
    and come down to $.25*X.
    
    ...just don't seem proper.
    
    Edd

    
    Re .71
    
    We had set up an appointment for Saturday morning at 9:30 AM. My wife
    initially couldn't figure out why I decided on that time. As it turned
    out that was an excellent time because he was still there at 12 noon.
    I can't afford to sacrafice that kinda time on a "work" evening.
    
    The unit is set to "regenerate" on a 4 day schedule. Mine was installed
    on a Tuesday so the installer set it for Tuesday at 2AM and Friday at
    2AM. Now try to explain to the wife why a 4 day cycle goes from Tues to
    Fri, and Fri to Tues. Seven days are not evenly divisible by 4.
    Anyway the installer told me that I would hear it doing it's thing
    since my bedroom is directly above it but I didn't notice it last
    night. I consider myself a "light" sleeper. Aside from the price, the
    soft water is great. Those bathroom water spots on the chrome handles,
    aluminum shower door frame, ceramic tile just effortlessly wipe off.
    Your hair and skin feel different without using conditioner and stuff.
    I haven't washed my cars yet with soft water but I know I'm not going
    to miss the water spots. That alone justifies some of the cost. I like
    the cars to be spot free, the dishes,,,,who cares...
    
    Phil
    

    I've noticed a slight odor in our tap water.  The odor is a sort
    of burnt, sulphury type.  If I cup my hand (and run some water
    into them) and IMMEDIATELY smell the water, I can smell the odor.
    However, if I wait 5-10 seconds before smelling the water there
    is no odor.  I heard somewhere that you will only smell sulpher
    when the water first comes out of the tap and hits the air.
    Is this true ?
                                            
    Our water comes from an artesian well and has a high iron content.  
    Could this be the part of the problem ? 
                            
    Will a water filter help ?
    
    One last thing - our water was tested last August and checked out 
    fine.
    
    Thanks,
    Bob

    
    Had this problem when I had deep well (360 ') at my 1st house. The well
    went into rock that contained sulpher. (not uncommon for deep wells, we
    were told) Basically the sulpher gas would get into the water. If you
    let the water sit all day, the gas in the pipes would leak out. But
    once you draw from the well, whew, rotten eggs. Not what you'd call an
    invigorating showing in the morning....
    
    
     The cure for us was a water filter which injected air into the water
    before it filtered. It turned the sulpher from gas to solid so that it
    would be caught by the filter. This was in 1985, and the price of the
    unit was around $1200.00 . worked like a charm.
    
    
     Bob

    The sulpher in the water also makes the water somewhat acidic.......
    seems like I remember it forms some H2SO3..
    
    Marc H.

    To test for sulphur, you need to put the water sample in a special
    bottle.  The testing lab ought to know what you need if you tell
    them you want to test for sulphur.  I've never had it done (never
    needed to) but the lab I took my samples to told me about the
    special bottle requirement for sulphur.

I doubt if it's acid.  All of south Georgia and north Florida (at least)
drink sulfur water.

Cities get rid of it by aerating the water.

It's a very weak acid, but there's not enough to do anything, since the
"rotten egg" odor (H2S) is so smelly you can smell the tiniest traces, and
if there was enough to affect your water, you'd be driven out of your house
heaving.

-Mike

    An activated carbon filter should remove the oder from the water
    (and make it taste better too).
    
    -Mike
    

    
    
    re carbon filters:
    
     Before we bit the bullet and sunk $1200.00 into an air injected filter,
    I was changing carbon filters about twice a week. I had the basic AMTEK
    whole house filter and at about 8.00 - 12.00 a week for carbon cartridges,
    I quickly realized that it would be cheaper in the long run to buy the
    air injected unit. 
    
    
      Bob

We also had high iron content in our water.  It showed up as an orange residue 
on our toilets.  It was accompanied by a sulphur smell just as you described.
We put a sediment filter (whole house) in, and the smell stopped, and the orange
stains virtually disappeared (still show up if you leave the bowl unflushed for
a while, like a long vacation).

We tried one of the sediment/carbon combo filter inserts for our filter.  The 
result was no better then a good sediment filter in terms of noticeable water
quality (look taste smell).  However, we ended up HAVING to replace the filter
about once a week an still never got water pressure as good as with just the
sediment filter.  We have to replace the sediment filter once a month or so, or
else the water pressure drops off.

    One common problem with smelly water when a tap is first opened is
    due to decomposition of certain makes of tap washers ... depending on
    the actual mineral content of the water.  One place I lived, the
    water was so bad smelling in the mornings ... a mixture of chlorine
    and sulphur.  This was town water, so I called the water authority, and
    they actually sent me a pack of mixed tap washers.  I replaced all the
    washers in the house ... half were pitted.  After that the smelly water
    problem went away.
    
    Stuart

    re:8
    I dont have the smell, but the filter changed sounds the same.
    I'm just using a paper filter right now.  But it looks like some
    time donw the road i'll have to spring for a system to clean up
    the "red ring".  But it does seem to change with the season or
    usage.
    
    JD

    I get a sulphur smell about every 18 months.
    
    My sulphur smell (and perhaps yours) is caused by a certain kind of
    (supposedly) harmless bacteria that often exist in iron laden water.
    One of their byproducts is hydrogen sulphide.  (My water supply has a
    significant quantity of iron.)
    
    I get rid of the smell by getting rid of the bacteria by bleaching the
    well.  This process is discussed elsewhere in this notesfile.
    
    Rich

    I had the Rainsoft rep at my home saturday (for 3 hours) and after all
    was said and done, he left me with a price of $4900 for a complete
    system with the reverse osmosis unit at the kitchen sink.  He started
    at $6100 and dropped it $1200 when I filled out the paperwork in
    advance so that if I gave in, they could move quickly.
    
    Reading some of the replies, it looks as though there is still a bit
    of room to bargain.
    
    any help??Z

    > any help???
    
    Maybe not what you want to hear, but I'd have tossed his sorry tuckus
    out the door before he could even say "reverse osmosis".
    
    I detest it when a salesperson starts lopping off huge chunks of money.
    Why not offer the unit at an equitable price and sell it on merit, not
    perceived "savings"...
    
    Edd

    Look elsewhere, compare prices.  Methinks you will find that $4900
    is a colossal ripoff.

Look in the yellow pages.  Real businesses (the kind that don't have to go
out door-to-door to find suckers, I mean customers) will give you a sample
bottle and do a free analysis of your water and then mail you a quote for a 
system, including installation.  Get a couple of those and I think you'll be
pleased by how much lower the quotes come in from these door-to-door ripoffs.

	Luck,
	Larry

      Our water softener died recently and my wife and I are looking into a
    replacement.  We plan on getting our water tested by an independent
    lab.  We'll use the results to determine what we need.  I've read some of 
    the notes in here about taking minerals out of well water but still
    had a couple of questions:
    
    1) It seems the most popular solution is an ion exchange system (brine)
       but some notes refer to a system that aerates (mixes oxygen with)
       the water and then lets the oxidized minerals settle out in a holding 
       tank.  The aeration scheme seems attractive because it doesn't
       add sodium to the water and you don't have to buy salt.  Consumer
       Reports had an article on water conditioners but it didn't mention
       the aeration system.  Can anyone fill me in on the advantages and
       disadvantages of the two systems?
    
    2) Has anyone tried out a "magnetic" system?  The notes on this are
       fairly recent but don't have any recomendations.
    
    /Andy 

    I think the aeration systems are only for removing iron.  If you have
    classic "hard water" (i.e. calcium), you'll need a brine unit.
    
    But I may be wrong on that....

I believe aeration will work for manganese as well as iron.  It definitely
won't work on the 'classic' components of hard water, calcium and magnesium
since oxygen won't react with them any further than it already has.

re .79:

I don't see how anything 'magnetic' can help with hard water, since calcium
and magnesium are nonmagnetic and will ignore a magnet.

-Mike

    I know this note has not been visited for a while but original question
    never got answered. So, I shall try to ask it again because I am
    thinking of putting some sort of water conditioner in/on our supply
    line. I have the choice of fitting,
    
    	a) Heavy magnet type
    
    	b) Polyphosphate type in-line filter
    
    And, the questions I have are,
         
    	1) how effective are they? in terms of effects on taste, washing
    	   hair, clothes etc
    
    	2) how safe are polyphosphates in drinking water and water used for
    	   cooking etc
    
    I am leaning towards a) because it is easy to fit, maintainance free
    etc. I am staying away from softners because of cost mainly and also
    because we don't have much spare space in our kitchen.
    
    Any comments will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
    
    Perwesh

From what I know about chemistry I see no reason for the magnet types to work
at all.  The "hard" in hard water is usually calcium bicarbonate or similar
minerals.  They react with soap (sodium stearate or similar) to form calcium
stearate (better known as bathtub ring).  Calcium bicarbonate is less soluable
in hot water than cold so it forms scale in water heaters, hot water pipes,
showerheads and boilers.  Calcium ions are not magnetic, they'll ignore the
magnets near the piping.  Even if they were magnetic, once they leave the area
of the magnet, they'll act just the same as they did before.

I don't know about "polyphosphate" filters, but I'd give them better odds at
working than something I know won't work.

-Mike

    Can anyone recommend a place to have my water tested in the Franklin
    (MA) area.
    
    Thanks,
    Susan

	I moved into a house with a Culligan water softener (probably 10-20 yrs
	old).   Problem is...  I've never had one, don't have a manual, and was
	never  told  how  to maintain it (besides the obvious refilling it with
	salt when the tank is near empty).

	I have three basic questions:

	1) How  bad  is  it  if  the softener goes without salt for a while? [I
	haven't  done  this  but there was only 2 lbs of salt rocks left when I
	refilled  the  salt  yesterday,  and  I'd  like  to know how dangerous/
	critical  it  is to be right on top of the salt consumption (other than
	just having not-so-soft water for a while)].

	2) At  the  bottom  of  the brine solution tank into which I dumped the
	salt,  the brine solution water there was disgustingly sewerage-looking
	brown.   (I'm  'washing'  out  my  tank  with _this_ stuff??).  Is that
	normal?  Has  anyone  else experienced this? It makes me uncomfortable,
	having  it _that_ dark brown (even though I know it's only regeneration
	fluid and not my drinking water).  Do you ever drain that fluid out? No
	wait,  the  tank is drained and refilled with fresh water every refresh
	cycle...  why is the water brown?

	3) The  Culligan  system  I  have  consists  of  three  tanks:  the ion
	exchanger  tank,  the brine solution tank, and a third tank that I have
	no  idea  what  it's  there  for.   It  looks  like an extra mini-brine
	solution tank and I believe the only place it is connected to is to the
	main  brine  tank.  The other clue is that nearby on the cellar wall, I
	found  a  bottle  of "water softener cleaner" but the writing had faded
	off  completely.   Do  I  dump this stuff into the third tank? When and
	how? Does anyone else have this type of set-up?

        I have a feeling that maybe 2) and 3) are related...

	-Erik

    The scuzz in the brine tank is accumlated dirt from the salt, probably.
    I cleaned mine, after about 5 years of accumulation; there was a lot
    less actual dirt than I expected, i.e. it looked a lot worse than it
    was.  If yours hasn't been cleaned for 20 years, it's probably time. 
    ;-)
    It wouldn't hurt to clean it out.  Be sure to leave a few inches of 
    (clean) water in the bottom of the tank afterwards.

    
    	Has anyone ever run out of salt with their water conditioner? Does
    	it hurt anything if you do? 
    
    	After this 50-bag I just put in is gone, I'm going to clean out 
    	the brine tank. Still don't know what the third tank is for
    	yet though...	
    
    	-Erik

Running out of salt:

I used to let mine run without salt for varying periods.  I knew it 
needed salt when the dishwasher started turning brown...  Once when
I let it go a long time without salt, it froze solid with accumulated 
iron oxide and I had to take it apart and chip the gunk out.  But then, 
I've got a *lot* of iron in my water.

Warning:  just because there's an inch of salt in the bottom of the brine
tank does *not* mean that it needs no salt!  Quite the contrary, I once
ran for weeks with an unchanging 1-2" of salt in the bottom of the brine 
tank (this is related to the story above).  I thought all of the salt 
would disolve in the water... go figure.  Anyway, going without salt for 
a little while shouldn't be a problem.


Dirty gunk in the tank:

That brine tank sure can look disgusting, can't it!  Partly it is dirt
from the salt, and partly (in my case) it is because the tank gets filled
with untreated water, so there is iron residue.  However, the softener
gets flushed with clean water for quite a while after the brine tank
is drained through it (at least minde does) so I don't think it's a
problem.  I do clean mine periodically, but that's more aesthetics.
Note that depending where the outflow is in your brine tank, it might
not actually remove all of the water on each backflush.


Third tank:

I've taken to occasionally cleaning out my tanks with Iron Out (available
at Spags and other places).  You add it to the brine tank before a
regeneration -- or you use it to clean your sink or dishwasher if you
let the salt run out for too long a time.  Maybe that's the sort of stuff 
that gets added to your mini brine tank.  Just a guess.


	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    Where do you buy your salt? I have had it delivered by a culligan 
    company in the past, but they allways want to get into the house 
    when I'm not home to deliver, and I don't like leaving it outside
    in case of rain. 

I buy mine at Home Quarters on rte 9 in Shrewsbury.  I think the last
price I paid was $3.65 per 40lb bag.  I'd be willing to pay more to
someone who delivered it into my basement, but not a whole lot more.  I 
believe it's also available at plumbing supply houses and places like that.

I'd be surprized if it's a problem to leave the bags out in the rain 
for a few hours.  My salt comes in heavy plastic bags, and some have a 
couple of pinholes in them, but not many.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Did you hear the one about the donkey who fell in a stream while
going to market loaded with cavass bags of salt?  The donkey was quite
impressed with how much lighter the load got.  So going home, he made
sure to fall in the stream again -- except the owner had traded the
remaining salt for bags full of sponges...

    Ericson's Grain on route 27 in  South Acton (going north from Maynard, 
    it's just before the railroad bridge, on the right) has salt for
    water softeners, as does Robinson's Hardware in Hudson.

    Has anyone done business or have any info on a company in Londonderry
    N.H. called NOVA Water Systems? I have been talking to them regarding
    a neutralizer and softener. They seem very knowledgable and have
    given me references. So far I feel comfortable with them and their
    product.
    
    Please reply by mail if there are any disparaging comments.
    
    
    Thanks
    
    John
    

    Bacterial iron keeps coming back every 6 months. The water tastes fine
    and does not smell. We just get the slime build up in the toilet.
    
    Am I not chlorinating it thorough enough.  I use one half gallon
    of chlorine on a 200 foot deep well of 6" casing. I run a return line
    from outside faucet back to well to wash casing and let it circulate 
    for one hour. The chlorine smell goes away in about 3 days. The 
    bacterial rust gradually comes back over a six month period.
    
    What should I do ?

    The well drillers and water test people I talked to all said, "if
    you can taste the chlorine, you've got plenty."  So I suspect, if
    it takes 3 days for the smell to go away, you've got plenty.  I
    suspect there may be no way to get rid of *all* the bacteria - after
    all, you are trying to disinfect the entire groundwater - and you
    will always have a recurring problem.  But that's just my guess.

    I bought a reverse osmosis filter for our water since we have arsenic
    in the water.  I was looking over the instructions for hooking it up
    and I noticed that there is nothing to prevent water that is going down
    the sink drain from backing up into the filter drain tubing.  Has
    anyone found an easy solution to this problem via some type of valve to
    prevent water from entering the drain tube of the filter?  I called
    Tectonics, the maker of our unit, and I was told that a valve would be
    OK but it would need to be very easy to open or the RO unit would not
    be able to push the drain water through.  Any suggestions on what I
    should look for and where?
    
    							John

    
    I would think that some kid of floating ball check valve would
    work.  the waste water would drain out and if any water came back
    up the tube it would float the ball closed......
    
    What was the brand name of the filter?  A few years ago, someone
    gave me a demo with a Natures way(or something like that), and the
    water taisted great.  I want to say the cost was about $500???
    
    JD

    Our filter is made by Tectonics Water Treatment Systems.  Don't see any
    other brand name on it.  It was $430 from Policy Well and Pump in NH.
    
    Would a ball valve work on the filter drain in the situation pictured
    below since the filter drain enters the sink drain horizontally?
    
    	|                                   |
    	|             Sink                  |
    	\                                  /
     	\______________       ___________/
    	       ________ \_   _/
    	   +-> _______ \_ | |______________
    	   |          \_ \|  ______________  <-- Filter drain
    	Dishwasher      \_  |
    	 Drain            | |
    	                  | |
    	     _______      | |
    	     ______ \    / /
    	           \ \__/ /  <-- Trap
    	            \____/
    

    
    
    
    ....eeeaaayaaa..but gravity works it best when its 
    	perpendicular to the earth..      | |
     					 / ^ \
    					 \ * /
                                          | |
                                       ---- |
    				       -----/	
    ......something like that...
    JD	

    I checked a couple of hardware stores looking for such a ball valve and
    didn't have much luck.  They only had valves for 3/4 inch fittings and
    larger.  Where could I find something for 1/4 inch tubing?
    
    							John

    
    Try a Fish Store, they have many types of check valves for filters that
    are 1/4 inch. Its best to check a fish store that has a large Marine
    Aquarium section.
    
    Steve T.

    Our filter is finally hooked up and producing filter water but it won't
    make more than one gallon.  We have a three gallon tank but even after
    24 hours, I only get a little more than a gallon from it.  I picked up
    the tank and it seems empty so I don't think it's a problem with the
    air pressure in the tank bladder.  I called Tectonics and was told that
    I need to have 55 to 60 lbs of water pressure to drive the filtering
    process.  The owner's manual says 40 lbs minimum.  I have our pump set
    to come on at about 38 lbs and shut off at 60 lbs.
    
    Has anyone had this experience and found that higher water pressure
    solved the problem?
    
    I'm a little leery of boosting the pressure too high since I don't know
    what it will do to the rest of the plumbing.  I've got a call in to the
    plumber who did all the work in the house to get his opinion of safe
    water pressure.  Any thoughts on the effect of pressures over 60 lbs?
    
    Finally, I wondered if a larger water tank would help.  We have one of
    those tiny tanks in the basement (5-10 gallons, maybe?).  I wondered if
    by putting in a large (40 to 50 gallon?) tank the filter would produce
    more water.  My guess is that since there is more water in the tank, it
    would take longer to draw down the pressure in the tank thereby
    increasing the time that the water pressure to the filter is in the
    high end of the 40-60 lb range so I would get more water without
    raising the settings on the pump.  Does this make sense?  Any estimates
    on how much a large tank costs?
    
    							John

    Re .11
    
    I have a countertop RO unit.  One time, after replacing the RO filter,
    water production was markedly lower.  As it turned out, I had neglected
    to flush water through the system before putting it into "production". 
    I think the manufacturer recommended 15 or 30 minutes of flushing
    before "pressurizing" the system.  I don't know if "under cabinet"
    systems have the same capability to run water through the "input" side
    of the RO filter, thus flushing out that side of the membrane.
    
    Mark

    I couldn't find anything about flushing the system in the owner's
    manual.  I boosted our water pressure another 10 lbs. last night and it
    produced a little more water -- about 1.5 gallons in 12 hours.  Still
    nothing close to the 9-10 gallons it is supposed to filter in 24 hours.
    
    Any other under-the-sink RO filter owners out there who have reasonable
    water production?  What water pressure are you using?
    
    							John

I have an under-sink RO unit, with a "two gallon" tank.  When the tank is
full, I get maybe 1.75 gallons of water before the tank is empty.  If I
continuously draw water from the unit, I can get about .75 gallons per hour.
I'm on city water, which I once measured at 60 psi, and there's a pressure
reducer in the house whose output I have not measured, so I would say that
I'm using something less than 60 psi.

It's not clear to me from reading your note whether you wait 12 hours and
can then draw only 1.5 gallons, or whether continuously drawing water over
12 hours resulted in only 1.5 gallons.  If the former, I would suspect your
storage tank (have you checked the air pressure in it? When the output
pressure goes to zero, does the tank feel empty?  You have a well, so you are
probably familiar with all the problem modes of storage tanks).  If the
latter, then you may have a problem with the filter itself.

    We wait 12 hours and then only draw 1 to 1.5 gallons.  The tank did
    feel empty but tonight I'll drain it and put a little more air in and
    see if more water comes out.  I did add air to the tank before I
    started using the filter and I wondered if maybe I put too much air and
    the storage tank is preventing the filtered water from entering.
    
    							John

    	Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, but I read through all the
    replies to this note and didn't see what I was looking for. I'm about
    to purchase a water treatment device of some sort for my well water. My
    main problem, however, is acidity and some hardness. My understanding
    is that neutralizing acidity always requires chemical additives and
    that these additives actually make the water harder, usually requiring
    a water softener of some sort.
    	So I'm wondering, first, if this is true and second if any of the
    other treatment options can do anything about acidity. I really don't
    like the idea of additives in the water, and I understand that some
    produce water which can damage plants (I have a large garden).
    	Advice or pointers to answers welcome. Thanks.

There's a simple solution for your garden -- plumb your outside faucets
before the water treatment apparatus.  It'll also save you the expense
of treating water that doesn't need treating.

    Looks like we're stuck with a maximum of 1.5 gallons at a time.  I
    can't seem to get more water filter even when the pressure is up at 70
    lbs.
    
    One final question...  Is there any reason I shouldn't use a brass
    ferrule in a compression fitting for connecting plastic tubing?  I've 
    used a brass nut with plastic ferrules and plastic tubing and it seems
    to work fine.  How about with a brass ferrule?
    
    							John

    
    The brass should work with not problems...
    
    You said your system is rated for an output of 10gals????
    Hummmmmmm?  Most of the systems i've looked at (just a quick look see),
    were rated for about 2 gals a day.  
    
    JD

    Well, it's rated for 10 gallons with water at 77 degrees Fahrenheit and
    water pressure of 40 lbs/sq. inch.  Actual output will be somewhat
    lower since the water is quite a bit colder than this but I didn't
    expect it to be as low as the 1.5 gallons in 24 hours that we have been
    getting.  We'll try it for a while and see if we run out of water.
    
    							John

Our well-guys (this has to do with the quality of living ("well") they're
making off our pump service), for "normal" chlorination, use 1 gallon per
100 feet of well. For "heavy" chlorination, 1.5 times that. They recommend that
you circulate the chlorinated water thru everywhere possible (i.e. flush 
toilets, hoses, faucets/showers/tubs etc) so that there's chlorine contact
thruought the plumbing. Leave it for 24 hours plus (we spent the weekend
in Boston) then run it out a hose (the septic system isn't fond it the 
chlorinate) until it doesn't smell any more.

Certainly "finds" the dissolved iron, it does. 

    I looked around with the different key_words but didn't find any
    note or reply that talks about the problem I am having.  I have
    a well with a water conditioner on it. The conditioner is programed
    to go thru a self clean cycle every three days.  That works fine
    but it appears after every self clean that my hot water is rusty.
    Any ideas why this would happen.  The other days the water appears
    fine.   Am I not putting enough iron-out in the salt bath??  Any
    other suggestions...

    
    
    Shounds like Iron alright!  I'd drain my HW tank a little.  Maybe
    you have some rust in the bottom if its an old tank.  Also
    check the salt bath to the level of Iron.  I have iron in my
    shallow well and notice it more in the HW side when I dont use
    it for a day.
    
    JD

    From everything I've heard, you shouldn't have to put Iron Out in the
    salt tank every time.  The conditioner is supposed to remove the iron
    itself -- if it isn't doing that, iron out during the backflush isn't
    going to help.  It is useful, though, to throw in some Iron Out every
    now and then if the pipes to the salt talk get too grudgy -- on my
    conditioner, the salt tank isn't filled with conditioned water, so
    it does need to be cleaned every now and then.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    Has anyone heard of Equinox?  They're supposed to be big on the west
    coast and just starting to get into New England.  They want $200 for a
    counter top model and $1069 for a whole house system (price does not
    include plumbing).  It's a three stage filtrattion system with a three
    year warranty.  The whole house system has a 300,000 gallon capacity
    and should last ten years.  Supposedly, they've been selling these for
    only two years, and have had "NO" complaints/returns.  They have 40,000
    independent distibutors (the guy came to my house.  He buys the filter
    and sells it to me.)
    
    I want to know: Is $1069 a good price?  Anybody got one?  What do you
    think the difference is between this and the $40 whole house unit I saw
    in K-Mart?
    
    Regards,
    	    JAM

You think the reseller would tell YOU if there had been complaints or
returns?

I wouldn't buy any product sold in this fashion, especially something that
expensive, from a company I had never heard of.

What do you need a filter for?

			Steve

   Agreed... be careful... you might get some info be checking them out
   yourselves... find out where their base of operations is, and make
   some calls.  Call the better business bureau in their home state, and
   maybe the chamber of commerce in their home city... you might not get
   any info, but you might get some good stuff too..
   
   - Tom

        Datapoint:   NSA was big around NE  a  few  years  ago  -  same
        sounding scheme.  I saw an ad for NSA filters from a couple who
        had given up on the water filter business and  were advertising
        the disposable sink-top model for $50 to clear stock.   I think
        I  offered  $30 for the unit and bought one at that  price  and
        they  had  made  a  small  profit.    This unit was selling for
        $150-$200! (recommended)
        
        FWIW
        
        Andy

    re: last few
    
    Thanks for the input.  I've actually already decided not to the
    Equinox route.  I was just curious if anyone had heard of it.  I figure
    that I could buy a $40 K-Mart whole-house filter each year for the next
    10 years and still not come close to what Equinox wants.
    
    re: Why do I want a filter?
    
    My next door neighbor put a new lining in her pool last spring.  The
    water from her backyard faucet is what filled it.  With no chemicals,
    just the city water, you could not see the bottom of the pool.  I just
    don't like the idea of that cruddy water in my tea, juice, bath,
    laundry etc.
    
    Thanks for your input and concern.
    
    JAM

The water may have been fine when it went into the pool but got a bacterial
bloom later.  Have your water tested if you are in doubt.  I CERTAINLY
wouldn't spend big bucks on a filter system without knowing what it is I
wanted to get rid of.

				Steve

	There could also have been gunk on the new liner that caused the
	water to look bad. I wouldn't base the decision to get a filter on
	that.

	In any event, having your water tested is the best idea. If you can
	sit through a sales pitch, places like Culligan will test your water
	for free. Then you can go buy a cheap whole house filter, if that's
	all you need.

	Roy

    
    .........from 219.52...........
	In any event, having your water tested is the best idea. If you can
	sit through a sales pitch, places like Culligan will test your water
	for free. Then you can go buy a cheap whole house filter, if that's
	all you need.
    
    
    I would pay and get tested by independent lab unless you really
    know the people. Over the years there have been many cases of
    companies selling filter systems with free tests that find all
    sorts of non existent terrible things in your water sample to
    scare you into buying a filter system. This is an old but still
    ongoing scam. Just be careful. For many people a free test turns
    into a very expensive unneeded filter system.
    					Harold
    
    

	    Just bought a counter-top filter/pitcher combo for ~$18.00.
	I don't remember the brand name, but they're supposed to be very
	popular in Europe, where they've been selling them for several
	years. 
	    The filters are supposed to remove "93% of the lead" in the
	water and last 2 months.  $18.00 for a three pack of refills.
	We use it for coffee, cooking, ice cubes, etc.  I like it.

					Tim

    You may be talking about a Brita. We received one as a gift. My wife
    says she notices a difference in the water (her mother gave it to us
    ;-) ) but I don't. Your mileage may vary.

	    Yeah, Brita, that's it!  We were buying bottled water, but this
	is cheaper and easier and we're using it for just about everything.

					Tim

    What I like best about Equinox is that in this month's issue of Consumer
    Reports, CU ran a short blip in the back that Equinox was advertising 
    their product on the top of the CU rating in it's recent report of 
    which water conditioning/purifying ?? products to buy.  
    
    (They inserted their models and made the orginal report look like they
     were rated on top)
    
    Consumer Reports was amused, especially since Equinox was not one of
    the products tested in any of the areas.  
    
    Equinox headquarters stated that they cannot control anything that one
    of their distributors might  advertise.   
    
    Consumer Reports said their Legal Dept would follow-up.
    
    
    	

As seems to be a common theme in the 4 or 5 notes on water softeners, I just
bought a house with an artesian well and water softener.  As usual, no useful
documentation.  Amusingly enough, it doesn't have a brand name on it either. 
I'm trying to figure it out so I can order a new timer since the one I've got
is shot.  I'm far too forgetful to continue to manually regenerate.

I've got an installation manual that lists parts ordering addresses of 
4767 North 32nd Street, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and 14516 E. Bonelli Street,
City of Industry, CA.  Do these ring a bell with anyone?

The model numbers listed in the installation guide are things like DU-715-F,
DU-930-F, and 1252 (I think I've got the DU-715-F, separate brine tank from
softener, red knob with arrow which ponts to backwash, brine&rinse, brine
refill, purge, and service settings).

Had millions of questions about it, but they've all been answered in this and
related notes.

j.

Wild (and quite possibly wrong) guess -
    Bruner is located in Milwaukee and OEM's stuff for brands other than
their own. Try calling a local plumbing supply for a phone number for Bruner
and ask them if the numbers ring a bell.
-Jack

Finally got mail back from the Milwaukee address.  It turns out I have an
Autotrol 1550-TC.  Got a parts list and am all set.

Anyone have any insights into this brand of water softener?

j.

    Well, I think yours is pretty much the same as mine, but I'm not sure
    if I have any useful insights.  I can tell you that I've got so much
    iron in my water that I'm always in danger of the whole thing gumming
    up if I forget to add salt for a while.  If enough iron deposits inside
    the softener, it becomes unable to pull water out of the brine tank.
    At that point, I have to crack the top and run lots of Iron Out through
    it.  Raising the level of the brine tank also helps.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

    
    I have a whole house water filtration system.  The type with the
    cylinder and seperate brine (salt) tank.    The problem that I have
    is after it goes thru it's rinse and purge cycle (every 3 says) the
    water is full of rust.  We have to run the tub for about 10 minutes
    until the water clears up.  Then it is fine until the next cleaning
    cycle.    I have tried to purge the system with a high concentrate
    of Iron out but it did not touch the problem.   The company that
    services the unit beleives they need to take the cylinder back to the
    shop and clean out the inside.   They say they have seen this bafore 
    and sometimes there are softball size chunks of rust that can cause
    this.     Now I am no expert on these systems, but when you are using
    water it is allways going thru the cylinder to remove rust etc.  So 
    why would I only have rust after the self clean cycle??   They want
    about $400 to remove the cylinder clean it and re-install.  
    
    I have done manual cycles and it works fine.  The only other thing I
    can think of is that when it is doing the final rinse cycle which
    takes about 20 minutes is that the water pressure drops way down.
    It is recieving pressure from the pump only.  About 15 PSI.  Is it
    possible the low pressure is not purging the tank??    Is that why in
    the morning once the holding/pressure tank is refilled the 50+ PSI
    purges the rust??
    
    What is the typical pressure you should recieve direct from the 
    well pump??   Is there any maintainance that should be done to
    the pump such as cleaning screens or filters down in the well?
    
    I just don't want to fork out $400 for them to say it's not the
    water system but it is related to water pressure so now lets
    open up the well......
    
    
    
    Thanks
    

    I'm not entirely following all your explanation, but here's a
    couple of things that have happened to me that have caused
    rust:
    
    On mine, there's a little plastic gear with a knob on it that you
    turn to set the time-of-day; a lever on the gear trips the recharge
    cycle after 6 days.  A year or so ago a couple of teeth on the
    plastic gear broke off so it didn't turn anymore, and it stopped
    doing automatic recharge cycles.  Solution: new part.
    
    Mine also has a little venturi nozzle that gets clogged with a
    buildup of rust sludge about once a year and has to be cleaned
    out.  Symptoms are visible rust.
    
    Neither of these sound exactly like what you're describing, but
    they're both a lot cheaper than $400 to check, if applicable....
    

    they have service the unit 3 times since January.  ANd have cleaned out
    all the parts.   luckily they have not billed me for the last two
    visits, maybe because they think I will go for the $400 fix. 
    
    As I said the water runs nice and clear after you run the tub for
    10-15 minutes then everything is fine until the next cycle.  So the
    timer is running fine.   I really think it is pressure related in
    that when it brings in the brine (which I think the salt is supposed to
    cause the particles to come to the top) and then does a purge and rinse
    that the water pressure is not strong enough to properly flush the
    system.  I may be way off base by thinking that way.  Not sure
    

    I checked my pressure from the well last night and it is 8 PSI.
    
    Is that a normal pressure when the pressure/holding tank is empty?

    I looked through the notes and couldn't find anyone using this system
    KINETICO aeration system to treat their water.
    
    Like other systems (CUNO Aqua-Pure) this system is suppose to take 
    out iron from well water.  The benefits are totally mechanical and
    no need to set up timer for back flush.  They also claim less
    maintenance.  But price $1K more.
    
    Anyone has a the KINETICO system?  Please comment.
    Do you like it?  How is the reliability?  Who install it?
    Is the price higher than other electric system?
    Any dislikes or likes?
    
    The system is rated by Consumer Digest as a top performer
    in 1990 or 1991.
    
    thanks in advance.

    Hi
    
    I would appreciate any advice on water filters. I am building in Bedford,
    N.H. and I understand that the iron and maganese levels are high. This
    supposedly causes staining but I'm unsure of the quality of the water
    itself. The well has been fracted at 502 feet with 5 gallons per
    minute available. Should I get a water filter attached to the main or
    just have one under the kitchen sink?
    
    Thanks much,
    Steve

   219  PRORAT::LANTEIGNE    27-JUN-1986    45  WATER FILTER INFO NEEDED
   312  ALEX::CONN           15-AUG-1986     3  Water filters?
  1858  PALMER::PALMER       11-JAN-1988    12  Water Supply Cartridge Filters info wanted
  2522  THOTH::BONETTI        3-AUG-1988    15  KITCHEN WATER FILTERS
  3502  MPGS::PIERMARINI     22-SEP-1989     1  well water filtering
  4257* MPGS::QUISTG          5-JUN-1991    14  Putting a 3/4" water filter on a 1 1/4" line

    Jeff
    Thanks....first time using notes
    
    
    Steve

    We're having an emergency artisan well drilled on our property (our
    shallow well is running dry...). Anyway, the person drilling our well
    said that for the past few years he's used a steel casing for the first
    60 or so feet (into the bedrock a bit) to prevent iron seeping into the
    water. He's had quite a bit of success with the casing lowering the
    iron content.
    Another thing to think about if it's not too late.
    	Cindy

We are thinking of having a water softner put into a house we just had
built.  I didn't realize at the time that a reverse osmosis filter would
NOT be a whole house filter.  So we will need to mount the RO filter at
our kitchen sink.  However, our refrigerator ice maker line comes off the 
water line coming into the bathroom directly behind it so the water to 
the frig ice maker will not be filter which meaning it will have a high
sodium content.  I'm bummed.  Does it sound like I'll need to get a 2nd
RO filter and connect it to frig and house the filter in a kitchen cabinet?
Help!

BTW, all the walls are finished, cabinets are set, appliances are in.  The
house is built with slab on grade so there is no basement.

Judy

An RO filter seems extreme overkill (and rather inefficient) to feed an
icemaker, in my opinion.  Do you have heavy metals in the water that
requires an RO filter?

				Steve

I'm on a salt restricted diet and we do have lots of magnesium and iron in
the water.  The plumber says it takes a separate filter to remove the iron.
According to the RO brochure, he is right.  Iron filter are outrageously
priced, so I don't think we'll be getting one of those.

I don't want to have to make separate ice cubes and cold water for those of 
us on sodium restricted diets.

Another question I have.  We are looking into a `demand' water conditioner.
They have a choice between a two-tank version and a tank-in-tank version.
Besides space, is there an advantage of one over the other?

Judy

    	What is the problem with the water you are trying to solve?  If it
    is high iron/maganese, you only need a filter which removes those
    elements.  I just installed one, it was under $700, very simple
    installation, NO maintenance (cartridge changing, adding salt, etc),
    and it completely took care of our iron problem.  
    	If your water is excessively hard, you may need a water softener.  
    A softener WILL remove a small %age of iron from your water as a 
    side 'benefit' of the softening process, but it is NOT designed for that 
    purpose and will eventually clog from the iron which it is not able to 
    remove from the water.  And you have the salt costs (I think another 
    note said $500-600/year?!?!) and health issues with the softener.
    	A R.O. filter, as the previous noter said, is only really necessary
    for removal of heavy metals (arsenic, lead, etc) from your water, and
    maybe some other elements.  And it is a very slow filtering system with
    a limited storage capacity, as you have found out from your recent 
    research.
    	Find the other notes in the 1111 index about iron removal (if that
    is your only real problem with the water) and read thru them.  There's 
    lots of good info in here, I just went thru the same process.  We ended
    up with a Cuno Aquapure as recommended in a lot in those other notes,
    found the best price at a plumbing distributor in Worcester, MA.  I can 
    supply that info if you or anyone else would like it.
    
    /Tom
    
    PS - Don't assume that the filter/softener people that you call know 
    what they are talking about!!!  Most that we called really wanted to 
    sell us a softener (because 'your iron number is not THAT bad,
    really...') but there was NO WAY I was going to buy or install one.  
    Our water is already S O F T, and there's no way I wanted the extra 
    expense/health concerns (alleged, for those who may disagree) 
    associated with the softening process.
    
    

    It all depends on what exactly is wrong. $500 a year for salt is way
    high - if you top $100 you are using a lot. All of the solutions use
    prefilters of some sort, which may cost another $100 or two a year,
    though.
    
    As for the RO filter - whatever you get will have plenty of capacity to
    run the icemaker also - just have it plumbed in. They usually use small
    diameter plastic tubing, which can be run almost anywhere with a little
    work...They do give really good water, but they cost...
    
    EVERYONE tries to overcharge you and sell you too much system - shop
    around, and don't get caught up in the "this price is only good today"
    ripoff. The demand based systems like the Kinetico will cost a little
    more up front, but tend to be cheaper to run and maintain. A lot
    depends on how much water you use, and how bad it really is....
    
    Good luck.
    
    Chris
    

.3>    said that for the past few years he's used a steel casing for the first
.3>    60 or so feet (into the bedrock a bit) to prevent iron seeping into the
.3>    water. He's had quite a bit of success with the casing lowering the
.3>    iron content.


I think your driller was blowing smoke.

1) Casing as far as and into the bedrock is a simple requirement of a drilled
   well. Without it, your well collapses in on itself. If he only started
   doing so recently, I fail to see how he ever remained in business.
2) Iron doesn't "seep into the water", actually. It's another mineral
   component within the rock that your aquifer runs through, and it gets
   dissolved and carried by the water as it flows in the aquifer on the way
   to your well.
3) The casing doesn't make much difference in terms of modifying the
   iron content of your water. If anything, if the static head of the well
   is sufficient to keep the water level high enough that it sits in
   the casing, you might get some additional iron from it, but that's
   likely negligible.

    
      Water Softener: If you are sodium restricted try to use potassium
    chloride, rather than sodium chloride which is usually used to make
    the brine solution.
    
    Mark

Have a couple questions re: Water Softeners.  Can potassium chloride 
be used instead of sodium chloride in all water softeners or just in
particular brands?  I've heard there are health advantages to using 
potassium vs sodium.  Is there a taste difference between the two?  
If the potassium tastes awful, can the taste be removed with something
other than an RO system or distiller?

Thanks for any help you can be.  BTW, RainSoft's system was $2K more
than Culligan's.  Does anyone have any experience with Lindsay?  

Judy

    I've looked through this string, but only found a few tangential
    references to our situation:
    
    The pH of the water entering our house from our well has been getting
    lower and lower since we built the house ~seven years ago (reading down
    to 5.5 at one point).  Some years back we added a neutralizer which
    helped but we now seem to have surpassed its capacity.  One of the
    worst symptoms of the problem is that we are now on our THIRD (!!)
    electric hot water heater and I just pulled out an element yesterday
    (lower) that was so corroded that the internalfilament was exposed!! 
    This was only seven months old and is what a failed element in the
    previous tank looked like, too. The water treatment company (Abbey
    Environmental in Sudbury, MA) is recommending what feels like a fairly
    drastic solution 
    :
    	an injector pump which uses potassium hydroxide (lye) from a 55gal
        drum for ~$1950 + ~$250/year in maintenance/chemicals.  
    
    They say they've pieced this together from various suppliers and have
    used it in this area with success for some time.  I trust them but
    still have reservations about this strategy.  My concerns, in addition
    to the price, are the risks of having that strong a chemical in the
    house.  I saw some references in previous notes to other variations on
    this theme.  Does anyone have any data to add to my decision-making
    process (preferably first-hand)?
    
    Thanks. 
        /jeff

    	What sort of "neutralizer" are you using now? My well water ph was
    down around 5.5 also, and I added a neutralizer system a few years ago
    that brought the ph back up close to 7.0. It has to be flushed and
    reloaded with "salt" once a year but seems to be doing the trick. Mine
    looks like a blue, 6' tall scuba tank. I had to replace all the copper
    water pipes in my house a few years ago when the acidic water had
    turned them into paper over the years (you could poke your fingers
    through the old pipes). I haven't had problems since.

    I believe our current neutralizer is by Cuno.  It sounds like the one
    you describe (scuba tank) except that it only stands about 5' tall.  It
    gets filled with a medium that is, I believe, crushed marble and last
    time they also added another chemical to attempt to modify the pH even
    more.  It is completely passive (i.e.- no moving parts).  The water
    people have been telling me that this type of unit just can't pull the
    pH up that much.  
    
    How old were your pipes?
    
    Thanks.
    		/jeff

    re: .426
    P.S.- the medium has been getting used at a rate of about 1/2" per
    month -- what's your usage?

I don't know where you are, but ... the only thing I want to say about
Lindsay is that in NH there is *only one* place where you can get service.
When we replace our water softener system we'll be looking for a more
"generic" brand.  Check how many places near you are authorized to work
on Lindsays before you buy.

	    - Lorri

RE: .429

>> Check how many places near you are authorized to work
>> on Lindsays before you buy.

We live in Colorado.  There is one place that says they'll service all
makes and models.  Doesn't say they are authorized, just they'll service
them.  There is 1 authorized dealer for Lindsay as well as 1 for Culligan
and 1 for Rainsoft.

Still haven't learned if it is OK to use Potassium Chloride instead of
Sodium Chloride and any taste difference.  Any opinions?

Judy

Looking for some input from this community on the issue
of drains from water neutralizers and softeners.

I'm in the process of buying a water neutralizer/water 
softener. I have talked to a number of different water
system companies and there seems to be a wide variety of 
opinions on these systems, what is best and also what is 
OK according to the regulations. 
The most recent issue I have run into, is related to the 
drain and where to put the water from the back-wash cycles. 

* Company A tells me that draining the water from back-
wash cycles to the septic is the proper thing to do, and
to let it out on/in the ground is a bad, especially if the 
outlet is near the well, the well water quality could be 
impacted over time with the added salt.

* Company B tells me that connecting to a drain in the house
where there is a septic system is not permitted according
to the regulations and that in all their installations 
they simply drill a hole in the sill, stick out a pipe and 
leave it at that. Regarding the issue of closeness to the
well and impact on the well water, this person said there 
would be none, since we have an artesian well. Company C
also says that if they hookup to the septic drain and we
ever wanted to sell the house we might have a problem,
and would have to redo the plumbing.

* Company C tells me that for water neutralizers and 
softeners connecting drain to septic is permitted but 
for other types of filter systems where bacteria etc 
is removed from the water a septic hookup is not permitted.

* I did finally call the EPA and also the Nashoba Board of
Health. They are both in agreement on this one, according
to them Title V does not permit water from back-wash cycles
from Neutralizers and Softeners to go into the septic system. 
Nashoba BoH told that it is OK to let the water out on the 
ground, a dry-well is not required.

* Reading through these notes, I did see some discussion 
related to the septic systems and whether they would suffer 
from the salty water. I got the impression though, 
that hookups of drains to septic systems are frequently 
done and did not see anyone reporting a problem with this.

I would be interested in any input you might have. Did you
ever hear about this issus before, how are your water
softener/neutralizer systems drained?

Thanks 

/Malin 

>    * I did finally call the EPA and also the Nashoba Board of
>    Health. They are both in agreement on this one, according
>    to them Title V does not permit water from back-wash cycles
>    from Neutralizers and Softeners to go into the septic system.

"Nashoba" means that you're in MA, right?

We live in NH, and our town's building inspector told me that the backwash MUST
go to the septic system, that it cannot go to a dry well.  He referred me to the
NH State Board of Health, and that it was their regulations from which he was
speaking, but I never followed up on this.

At any rate, the guy who pumped our septic tank after two years said that it was
operating just fine, so our backwash hasn't apparently affected our septic.
Ours runs once a week.

-Chris

The plumber for my builder, who is also the Harvard (MA) plumbing inspector,
tapped into my DWV and out to the septic it goes.

I just -assumed- that he would do the proper thing.  Final plumbing inspection
was done by the Bolton PI, with no objections.

Chris