Conference 7.286::home_work

    I insulated my basement a couple of years ago using the glue-it-on
    approach.  I glued 1" rigid tongue-and-groove styrofoam directly
    to the cement, then glued 1/2" sheetrock to the foam.  I didn't
    use strapping at all, and have had no problems.  If I were doing
    it again I'd do it the same way, except I think I'd use 2" foam.
    
    I put the foam right down to the floor, but glued the sheetrock
    up off the floor about 1" in case I ever get water in the cellar.
    You need the sheetrock for fire code, by the way.
    
    Most of my cellar walls are above ground so I didn't worry too much
    about waterproofing.  I sealed the area below ground with a
    masonary sealer before I glued on the foam.  As long as you cellar
    is "dry" I don't think you need to worry much.  The mildew smell
    is, I think, inevitable with anything sitting on cement.  Even if
    the cement is totally sealed and totally dry, the coldness will
    cause enough condensation to encourage mildew.  Set boxes up on
    boards so air can get under them and don't worry too much about
    it.
    
    Note that I'm not talking about "beadboard" here.  "Beadboard" will
    absorb water, and it's not very strong.  I used rigid extruded t&g
    styrofoam.  The polyisocyanate with the foil facings is supposed
    to be a slightly better insulator, but I don't think it's worth
    the extra money for this application.  The foil facings help only
    when they face a dead air space, and if everything is glued together
    you won't have a dead air space to speak of.  
    
    Be careful what kind of adhesive you use - some of them eat foam!
    I got some specifically recommended for styrofoam, but several of
    them will work okay.  Just check the label.
    
    Steve
    
    

    More thoughts....  Some people suggest insulating outside the
    foundation so the thermal mass of the cement is in the heated
    area.  I thought about doing that, but eventually decided to 
    insulate from the inside as less work (no digging).  I also didn't
    see any real benefit to be gained from having thermal mass inside,
    for my particular situation.  I heat the cellar only when I'm down 
    there, so by putting the insulation inside I don't have to heat up 
    the entire thermal mass of cement before it feels warm in the
    basement.  
    
    Steve
    

Steve,

	I'd never thought of going with just styro and sheetrock! Neat idea 
though.  Do you ever wish you had some sort of strapping for a nailing base for
shelves or other heavy hanging materials???

	Do you have any inside walls dividing rooms??  If so, how did you hook
them in?  I suppose you could tack them to the floor and ceiling. 

	Did you use 2 ft x 8 ft panels??  Approximately how much is it a sheet??

	How do you heat your basement when your down there?  Did you seal your
Cement? If so, what were your results?

	Did you use a suspended ceiling? 

	I live in Northern Vermont, in a snow belt to boot, so I would probably
go for the 2" styrofoam cause it gets pretty cold on those winter nites!  

    Strapping for nailing/attaching:
    Yes, occasionally that would be nice to have.  Thus far I haven't
    really needed it though.  I think the advantages of not using
    strapping (ease of installation and unbroken insulation layer)
    outweighs the loss of having nailers for hanging shelves, etc.
    Since it is a cellar, as you point out it is possible to hang
    things from the rafters if necessary.  For light things (a wall-
    mount telephone, for example) I've just glued a board to the
    sheetrock and attached the phone, or dryer outlet, or whaterver,
    to the board.
    
    Room dividers:
    I don't have any room dividers.  I think you could get by just fine
    by attaching to the floor and to the rafters though.  After all,
    the point where you attach to the wall doesn't really need to hold
    anything.  If you wanted to I expect you could glue a 2x4 to the
    sheetrock and attach the dividing wall to that, as long as you didn't
    try to pound nails in it.  Use screws to attach to it.
    
    Panel size/cost:
    I used 2x8 tongue and groove panels, which a couple of years ago
    when I did it cost about $5/sheet for the 1" stuff.  Fiberglass
    might be cheaper even adding in the cost of a stud wall.  However,
    fiberglass will absorb moisture, and the wall has to be thicker
    so you lose more floor space.  The styrofoam may be a bit of a premium
    in cost, but for the particular application at hand I decided it was the 
    way to go and I haven't regretted it.
    The R-value of styrofoam is R5 per inch, roughly twice fiberglass.
    Go with the 2" foam - in northern Vermont you need all the help
    you can get!
    
    Heat--how:
    This fall I put a radiator in the cellar on a separate thermostat.
    I have forced hot water heat, and the cost for installing the zone
    came to about $400, I think.  I had an old cast-iron hot water
    radiator lying around that was just the thing; given that cast-iron
    radiators are being thrown away every day, you could probably find
    one for cheap, if you decide to go that way.  At the time I put
    it in my heating contrator wondered if it would be large enough,
    but it has turned out fine.  
    
    Sealing concrete:
    I used some special waterproofing masonary paint on the below-ground 
    walls.  Two sides of the cellar are open walk-out clear down to the 
    floor, and for those walls I didn't bother with waterproofing.  (Why 
    they made those walls concrete from floor to ceiling instead of at
    least partial studs I have no idea, but they did.)  I think there is 
    some kind of clear sealer on the floor, put on before I bought the 
    house.  There are all kinds of masonary sealersaround.  I don't know 
    enough about any of them to recommend one over the other.  The
    styrofoam itself acts to some degree as a vapor barrier, I expect.  
    
    Suspended ceiling:
    Nope.  I don't have the headroom, for one thing.  I'm also not using
    the cellar as living space, just as a shop.  Personally I do not
    like the looks of suspended ceilings, but for a cellar, given that
    there are almost certainly all kinds of wires and pipes up between
    the joists that one has to get at occasionally, a suspended ceiling
    with removable panels makes a lot of sense.  If I were finishing
    off a cellar as real living space I'd probably go with one.
    
	Steve

    I am looking into a new house.  The specification sheet says
    exterior walls insulated with 3 1/4" and the grounds will be
    loamed and seeded.
    
    The house has a walkout basement, with 3 full height concrete
    walls and one framed wall.  The space between the 1st floor joists
    is insulated.
    
    The questions are: Does the building code require that this framed
    basement wall be insulated (by the builder)? and
    
    Is there any sort of minimum quality for loaming and seeding, such
    as depth of loam and density of the resultant grass?

    The reason you have one framed basement wall is because below the
    basement doorway you have at least 4 feet of frostwall.  If they
    were to put an 8 foot wall on top of that (above ground) that would
    make a 12 foot wall which would require stacking the forms.  That
    is expensive and most contractors won't pay for that.  Its cheaper
    to build the upper half of the wall with wood.
    
    Supposedly, either your basement walls or basement ceiling have
    to be insulated.  The idea is that any section of the house that's
    heated has to be insulated.  So if you don't plan to live in the
    basement, you can insulate the basement ceiling.  If you plan to
    finish the basement, you should insulate the outside of the foundation
    walls, or for the wood framed wall, between the studs.
                                                          

    One word of caution, using styrofoam on the inside as insulation
    presents one problem, although it is an excellent insulator.  If
    there is ever a fire in the house.....we all don't expect it, it
    won't happen to me......and we take all precautions, however, the
    vapors given off by the melting styrofoam will kill you faster the
    the smoke from the wood, or the fire itself.  The vapors are enclosed
    in the house and are intense.  This was a word of caution I used
    from a fire fighting friend of mine when I built my house five years
    ago.  Styrofoam in the top ceiling/roof is not as bad.  Just some
    food for thought.
    
    ROB

    I also want to insulate my basement and have a few questions.  I
    have a field stone foundation so I can't really insulate the walls.
    I'm interested in putting 4" fiberglass in the between the 2X8 in
    the basement ceiling.  My problem is that my basement gets damp
    in  the spring and I am wondering how this will affect the fiberglass
    insulation.  I plan to get a dehumidifier next year.  Will I get
    in trouble if I insulate the ceiling of a damp basement?
    
    
    						=Ralph=

    re .6
    
    It should be no problem insulating the DAMP basement ceiling, just
    be sure to put the vapor barrior on the up side (against the floor
    overhead).
    
    -boB

    If you put a vapor barrier in the ceiling of the basement, the
    moisture will not be able to escape from the basement.  The insulation
    man who installed it in my house put unfaced insulation in the ceiling
    (floor joists).
    
    -al

    In the winter my basement is dry.  In the summer I don't think I'd
    want the moisture from the basement "escaping" into my house.  I
    use a dehumidifier in the basement.  There is double-faced insulation
    in the ceiling of my basement and this arrangement has never caused
    any problem.  In fact, it's been most satisfactory.

    Where are all the pipes running for your forced hot water system?
    Are they insulated?  If so, couldn't you remove some of the insulation
    and get some of the heat delivered to the basement?  If they aren't
    insulated I don't understand why your basement isn't already toasty
    warm.  You could also attach some fin type thingees to the pipes
    to help them radiate.  Regulating the heating between the upstairs
    and basement might be a bit of a problem.  Since heat rises I don't
    see how removing the insulation from the ceiling will help much.
    I suspect that your parents basement was heated by the boiler and
    pipes, not by heat radiating through the floor, but what do I know?

There are hot-water pipes running in the basement, but only about 40' total
run for each direction.  Since they were not designed as heat exchangers
or radiators, they don't perform very well as such.

I agree that hot air (but not heat) rises.  On the other hand, almost all homes
these days have insulation between the basement and the living quarters, so I
assume that there is some non-negligible heat flow between a first floor and a
basement.

I am not looking so much for a way to do this "right" as a way to do this
cheaply without bad side effects.

Bob 

    I would think it would be an easy matter to get a section of heat
    exchanger (fin thingees) and install it (have it installed) in the
    line.  For that matter, I doubt that it would cost much to have
    another small zone put in.  Why not call your oil company.  They
    probably do installations (mine does anyway).

    	A few years ago I bought a "heat extractor"?? that fits on the
    	pipe that goes to the chimmney. It has a theromastat that turns
    	on a fan. It saves some heat from going up the chimmney. I
    	bought it at (where else.... SPAGS) the brand is "old Yankee"
    
    			Steve
    

I'd say [that if the cost wasn't too high] to add a zone (the
smallest you can -- 50 feet of pipe total??) to your fhw system
in the basement.  Also, if your family doesn't use the whole
basement, hang plastic drapes around it to block off the rest --
that is if the kids are big enough to understand not to play
with the plastic.  That way you could turn on the heat only
where it's needed when someone is down there...

Then again it would be cheeper to buy all parties ski pants and
parkas and turn the heat down in the whole house...   :-)

R.

  You often see paddle fans in buildings with very high ceilings.  Recently
  I've seen a different sort of gadget that does a better job of moving
  hot air down off the ceiling toward the living space.  It's essentially
  a metal duct or chimney with a fan in it.  Maybe you should consider 
  installing one of these in the room with the wood stove -- it could
  suck hot air from the ceiling of that room and duct it down into the
  basement.  It might even be enough to cut a register in the floor near
  the wood stove and use a muffin fan to draw the hot air down...

  JP

    There are a couple of other notes about insulating concrete walls
    and heating basements somewhere in this notesfile.
    
    I added an extra zone to my FHW boiler last fall - cost about $400.
    Definitely the way to go vs. trying to patch into an existing zone.
    I had an old cast iron radiator lying around that worked just fine,
    better (I think) than baseboard for my particular situation.  (Note
    that a cast iron radiator for hot water has a separate inlet and
    outlet; a steam radiator has a single inlet/outlet, in case you
    go looking for a used one.)  I did all the plumbing for the
    radiator to within a few feet of the boiler, then called in my oil
    burner guy to do the hookup.  I got the copper tubing and fittings
    from Spag's (of course).
    
    I insulated the concrete walls with rigid tongue and groove styrofoam
    glued on with construction adhesive, with 1/2" sheetrock glued on
    top of the styrofoam.  No furring strips, no nailing.  I did that
    at least two years ago and it's doing fine.  I used 1" foam, but
    if I were doing it again I'd use 2".  Note that I'm talking about
    rigid extruded styrofoam, NOT "beadboard".  I doubt that beadboard
    would be strong enough to support the sheetrock reliably.  The rigid
    foam, however, is fine.  The other choice in foam, foil-faced
    isocyanate-whatever, would be okay too I expect, but costs more $$$ 
    for what I decided would be only marginal (if any) increase in
    R-value. The foil face has to be open to an air space for best results,
    and in this case everything is glued together tightly.
    
    Take out the insulation in the ceiling?  Sure.  It's only useful
    if you intend to treat the basement as totally dead space, and you're
    not.  On the other hand, if you put heat down there it won't hurt
    to leave it in either, and if/when you sell your house the buyers
    might be impressed if they see insulation.  You can probably save
    work and just leave it there.
    
    Steve

    Bob,
    
    There is (or was) a device on the market called Chillchaser, made
    by an outfit called Turbonics.  Your oil dealer should know about
    it/them.  About 10 years ago, my parents installed one in their
    basement for reasons, and with conditions very similar to yours.
    The unit is about 18 inches wide by about 24 inches high.  It runs
    off the return line in your FHW system, and has a fan built into
    to it to circulate the air through its' radiator-like fins.  It
    is really nothing more than a very well designed convection device
    working like the fins on your hot water lines.  It does a very good
    job in my parent's house and really doesn't cost a whole lot to
    operate.  However, the way it does work might require that the
    boiler temperature be set higher.

    I warmed my basement shop space dramatically by insulating the end
    of each joist space aginst the outside wall. If you have a close
    look at this space you will note the only thing between you and
    outside is one 2x8 (or whatever your joists are) plywood and the
    outside clabboard or shingle. There is no dead air space as found
    in a stud cavity of a wall. 
    
    I glued a piece of strapping to the top edge of the concrete foundation
    with construction adhesive, then stappled short- 10"- pieces of
    6" insulation to the underside of the floor, the joists and the
    piece of strapping.
    
    Ron

    The increase in your basement temperature likely resulted from the
    new insulation getting in the way of cold air coming in through
    the gap between your 2 X 8's and the foundation (called the sill).
    I raised my basement temperature (without insulation on underside
    of first floor) about 10 degrees by using "Great Stuff" (or any
    similar foam-in-a-can) to first seal the gap where wood meets concrete
    (big enough to see light through in some places!), then covered
    the 2 X 8's with fiberglass.
    
    Another place to check for big air leaks is around a bulkhead or
    outside entry door to a basement. Plug them with fiberglass, "Stuff",
    or weatherstripping. It's easier (and cheaper!) to keep cold air
    out than to heat a continuous infusion of fresh cold air.

    When my father had his furnace installed( FHW ), he asked the plumber
    to install any unused sections of the baseboard pipes with the fins
    on them in the basement on the return lines for the furnace.  Granted,
    this is not the most attrative way to heat the basement, but it
    works.  
    
    
    It sort of looks funny, lots of short (1 foot or so) segments of
    pipe with square fins on them in the basement.  I'm sure you could
    find a couple of 8' segments of this stuff for cheap (without the
    enclosures) and install them in the basement (very easy if you have
    copper pipes, a little more difficult if you have steel)
    
    
    
    -bill

    I am trying to tighten up cold air infiltration in my cellar
    because I am going to turn a portion of into a den. I will be
    adding studded walls on the inside of the foundation which is
    of the cynder block/mortar skim coat variety, and insulating
    between the studs with 3.5" of fiberglass. I have been thinking
    of applying some 1.5" thick polystyrene foam to the outside of
    the foundation as well. I do not want to dig up all around the
    foundation however, and thought that I might just apply the foam
    to the part of the foundation which is exposed to the air. My
    primary intension in doing this would be to:
    
    		1) Better insulate the cynder blocks from the
    		   very cold winter air.
    
    		2) Try to slow the melting of the snow against
    		   the foundation, due to heat loss, thus slowing
    		   the rate at which water collected up against my
    		   foundation... which ultimately seems to trickle
    		   into the cellar.
    
    I was wondering if anyone had done this to their foundation, and
    if so whether they thought it was worth while. My other question
    is whether an adhesive like liquid nails would hold the foam to
    the outside of the foundation. Thirdly, is it possible to put a
    skim coat of mortar over the foam after the foam has been secured
    to the foundation...if so what is the best compound to use and
    what are some tips for applying it? Lots of questions...
    
    /Kevin

    I applied 2" styrofoam (note: should be the extruded stuff - NOT
    beadboard) to my poured concrete foundation before it was backfilled.
    It extends from the top of the wall (24" above grade) to below the
    frost line. If you only cover the exposed foundation, you haven't
    helped all that much since the frost gets into the ground in the
    winter and you'll have cold (below 32 F) soil surrounding your
    cinder blocks, as you do now.
    Good adhesives will work, but I also secured mine with a hardened
    masonry nail every 16" or so.
    I have stucco'ed mine. I did this by securing chicken wire to the
    surface of the foam and troweling on an exterior plaster compound.
    
    -Jack
    

Don't you have to worry about the buried styrofoam getting munged up; getting
water behind it; etc, etc, etc; is there anything to worry about burying
styrofoam on the outside of your foundation?

Jim.

    
    In response to 0.2 all I can say is that new homes in NE almost
    always use the extruded type foam insulation around the foundation
    before it is backfilled as mentioned in .1 ... that is were I got
    the idea. 
    
    
    /Kevin

Actually, it really is beneficial to insulate just the above ground part (and 
slightly below ground), if that's all you can easily reach.  Heat loss is much 
greater through above ground foundation.  Another thing you can do to partially 
insulate the below ground section is to dig out about 2' from the foundation, 
deep enough to have reasonable soil cover, and bury an sheet of insulation 
horizontally, sloping slightly away from the house.  This has multiple 
functions of keeping the ground next to your foundation warmer, and shunting 
water away from the house.

Adhesives work ok, but most of them will disolve the styrofoam, so you have to 
be careful.  We attached the outer layer of ours with masonry nails, the same 
length as the thickness of the insulation.  A few smacks with the hammer set 
them in the concrete and also push them below the surface of the insulation.
They hold pretty well.

For covering, Dow makes a stuff called Insul-Crete, which is specifically 
designed for adhering to the styrofoam.  It makes a grey stucco look, and it 
works fine.

Paul

    You do need to cover the above-ground styrofoam with something,
    or the sunlight UV rays will make it deteriorate.

    I am looking for some educated opinions on whether or not to
    insulate my (unfinished) basement ceiling (i.e. under the floors).

    Some background: My house is a 24x44 ranch.  My main heating
    source is electric (ouch).  I do have a woodstove in the basement,
    but for various reasons which I won't detail here, I don't plan
    on burning much wood this winter.  So naturally, I want to button
    everything up as much as possible to keep those electric bills
    under control.

    There used to be insulation in the basement which the previous
    owner ripped out so the heat from the wood stove could rise up to
    the upstairs.  I was considering putting in R19 fiberglass under all
    the floorboards.  The few people I have talked to tell me this won't
    do any good... it won't help the heat situation and I will risk
    having my pipes freeze.  I realize the possibility of pipes freezing,
    so I would burn a little wood, mainly just to keep the basement at
    a decent temp.  But I don't want to put the dinero into insulation
    if it's not going to do any good.  Is it worth it?

    Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated!

            Dick    (who wants to field test an all-electric winter
                     before considering alternate heating sources)

    Think about insulating the basement walls instead; there are notes
    in this file that go into all kinds of gruesome detail about how-
    to-do-it, if you decide to.  Insulating the basement walls can be
    done pretty easily, and that would give you a more useable (warmer)
    basement as well as leave open the possibility of burning wood
    in the basement to heat the upstairs, if you ever decide to.

    I'm no expert but I say you should insulate. Firstly I remember
    seeing some figures for heat loss through various surfaces some
    years back and floors were right up there ( so to speak ). I also
    used to own a house which had a garage under two of the upstairs
    bedrooms and no ceiling insulation. It was noticably colder than
    the other bedrooms which had rooms beneath them. And finally I think
    the pipes stay ok because they are below ground level not because
    they get heated from the house above - I dont think anyone has found
    a way to make heat travel downwards yet.

    Cal,  I'd like to hear more on this insulation that you put in crawl
           space, as I'm finishing up my addition....
    
    
    
    Thanks.
    
    Royce.

	I agree with .1 insulate your walls, I intend to do this myself.  I
	already insulated the band joists and noticed a difference in the 
	basement and my overall heating situation and heating *bill* :-)

	Since heat rises the maximum heat loss will occur overhead the area
	you are heating, in this case your roof.  Second worst which is only
	about 15-20% is your walls.  I don't know what floors are but they 
	come third.  

	More important than heating your floors is stopping air infiltration, 
	i.e. air leaks around windows, doors, building joints like band joists, 
	sill plates etc.  You will be surprised how much dealing with air 
	infiltration will make your house comfortable.  Also it will give
	you a usable basement for storage, workshop, growth space whatever.

	My $.02		- Randy

I'am insulating a basement with kraft R-11 between 2x4 studs. On one of my 
basement walls there is a 4 inch drain pipe running horizontally across the 
entire wall. After studding in the wall where the pipe is , there is now a 4
inch gap between the wall and the stud which will in turn leave a 4 inch gap
with out insulation because the insulation is stapled to the face of the stud.
My question is  is it alwright to leave this 4 inch gap without going to an 
R-19 or 25 to fill the gap? Am I also correct in installing the insulation with 
the paper side of it facing the inside of the basement? Is this a sufficient 
enough vapor barrier (my basement is very dry).

    Are you saying that you built the stud wall so that the drain pipe
    is sandwiched between the studs and the foundation?  If that is
    correct, then it will do no harm to leave the air space between
    the insulation and the foundation.  You could fill it with extra
    unfaced insulation if you want, but it's not necessary.
    Also, you did right by facing the paper side of the insulation toward
    the room.  On outside walls, I would staple a plastic vapor barrier
    over the insulation (covering the paper side).

    
    
   >  On outside walls, I would staple a plastic vapor barrier
   > over the insulation (covering the paper side).

    
    I was told once that putting plastic over the paper is a no-no...
    maybe because it could allow a moisture buildup between the plastic
    and the paper?
    
    
    

    I've heard it is also a good idea to leave a small air space between
    the stud walls and the other cellar walls which don't have a pipe
    in the way.  Something about condensation on the walls evaporating
    and not soaking the fiberglass insulation.

    Any chance that the newly installed insulation will keep the relative
    warmth of the basement away from the drain pipe, causing it to freeze 
    and clog up during a cold snap.
    
    (That happened with a supply pipe in a neighbors basement, the winter
    after he painstakingly sheet-rocked the outside walls. He was at
    work when his wife noticed the problem. You should have seen her
    interpretation of his directive to "knock a few holes through to
    let in the warm air."

    I too would like to insulate my lower level in a split..however,
    I have two large rooms that I use..both accessed at the the stairway.
     I would really like to put a new floor on top of my linoleum covered
     cement. I have lived in the house for seven years and never had
    any water problems.  I know that means raising the floor, but otherwise
    has anyone tried this?  Both rooms are cold since we have gas FHA
    with the vents in the ceiling (!!) on this level.  Any suggestions
    from anyone would be helpful..we would like to do something NOW
    for this winter.
    
    To those of you with the humidity problem, there's a product out
    called DRI-MOIST, I believe.  It's a bag that you hang in the room
    I find it works quite well; you must keep the door closed! It's
    fairly inexpensive and comes in two sizes.  In the winter, you air
    it out, make sure it's completely dry, and just use it again in
    the summer. 

    
    
    	I have the same situation as .0.  As in .4.....If I insulate
    	(sandwich the soil pipe between the outside wall and the insulated
    	studs) could the soil pipe freeze?
    	
    	And...there insn't enough room to leave a space between the studs
    	and wall to keep the insulation from touching the fieldstone 
    	foundation.  I thought that I would hang a layer of plastic
    	between the insulation and the foundation to keep the insulation 
    	from soaking up any moisture that might accumulate at the
    	foundation.  Is this a bad idea?, if so why??
    
    	tks__mike

    The soil pipe shouldn't freeze, because there shouldn't be any water
    staying in it if it is slopped properly...
    While doing my addition last year I had 25 feet exposed all winter,
    with a temporary patch of #30 pvc an had no problems, but I knew
    the water flowed right through the pipe, and didn't stay around
    to freeze... The patch was needed because the backhowe made a hole
    in a 4 foot section.   It was all replace with cast iron an backfilled
    after hooking up the addition.
    Jean  (Goffstown N.H.)
    

I have FHA gas heat, in a pretty-much finished cellar. At my Mass Save audit
today, the auditor claimed that a significant loss of heat for the house was
through the concrete-block foundation walls to the surrounding earth, and that
a big win would be to insulate my basement walls.  The expensive way is to put
in studs, sheetrock, and insulation, and actually build a wall inside the
wall.  What he suggested was that they make styrofoam-like panels (sold
somewhere like Somerville Lumber) which glue to the existing walls. 

1) Does anyone buy that there is major heat loss this way?  I though heat
rose... 

2) Does anyone have experience with these prefab panels?

thanx	/j

	[sorry for 2 new notes in one day, but the other note on 
	 basement insulation seemed to go in a separate direction]

    Jeff,
    
    	I tried this with 4x8x1 sheets of styrofoam held to the
    poured-concrete (not concrete-block) walls with special
    adhesive.  Not sure of the R-value (3/4 inch is 2.5).
    My subjective opinion is that it DID make a difference.
    You could place your hand on the wall and it didn't feel cold.
    The very white walls also made the basement brighter.  And it
    was certainly an inexpensive, easy job (if you don't mind lots
    of styrofoam-balls clinging to you while you work).

    Dale

    Re .1:
    
    Left the styrofoam exposed? I don't know if styrofoam actually supports
    a flame, but it definitely does emit poisonous fumes when exposed
    to flame, and should be covered with gypsum wallboard.
    

    For what it's worth: my father-in-law teaches a college extension
    course in the UMO system on home energy conservation.  In general,
    he states that the number one source of heat loss in the typical
    home it at the sill.  Maybe you just need a good caulking.
    
    pbm
    

    For what it's worth: my father-in-law teaches a college extension
    course in the UMO system on home energy conservation.  In general,
    he states that the number one source of heat loss in the typical
    home is at the sill.  Maybe you just need a good caulking.
    
    pbm
    

	Another 'quick-fix' is insulating the space above the foundation,
	just below the first  floor.   I've finished my darkroom this way
	and it's a lot warmer  than  it used to be in that corner.  While
	building the inner wall, I felt  LOTS  of  cold air leaking in at
	the sill.  With the space filled with Fiberglas, the cold doesn't
	spill in as it did.
	
	One note, however, if you have water pipes in  that area, be sure
	that they are well insulated since there won't be much  warm  air
	circulation  to  keep  them  from  freezing.

    
    	Re: .3 and .5
    
    	I second (third?) the nomination of insulating the sill area.
    Last night I noticed a large stream of cold air coming in one corner
    of the drop ceiling -- the one section where there is no tile due
    to washer/dryer gas line, vent, etc.  (Soon to be fixed, though,
    for asthetic reasons if no other!)
    
    	Well, you know how these things go.  Instead of getting to bed
    early (as hoped - yawn...), I ended up taking parts of the drop
    ceiling down to see what the problem was.  It turns out that there
    is no insulation at *all* in the sill area and the cold air is just
    pouring in.  (There was so much cold air coming in the "open" section
    of the drop ceiling that I started out by looking for a hole in
    the outside wall!)
    
    	I'm getting insulation on the way home today.  Something to
    do during the storm, I guess.  Ah, the joys of the first winter
    in this home. ;-)
    
    							-craig

    
    	One more basement hint.  Do you have any of those small, say,
    10 inch by 24 inch ventilation windows?  I have two of them and
    being only single pane, I could really feel the cold air coming
    in off of them.  I had used the "extruded polystyrene" rigid insulation
    for under my patio addition and had some left over.  Two pieces
    cut to size and caulked in place made a noticable improvement for
    just 10 minutes of work.
    
    							-c
    

    [really BINKLY::WINSTON...]
    Sounds like a good idea - I too have exposed 'sill' (area above
the foundation).  What's the best thing to use to insulate?
thanx/j 

    
    	I'll be picking up a roll of 16-inch insulation -- you know,
    the kind of stuff that the pink panther unrolls in the attic.  This
    stuff can be cut pretty easily into the desired sizes and moved
    into available space.  (I've picked the 16-inch wide insulation
    due to the spacing of the whatever_those_cross_beams_are_called.
    If you get insulation to match your width, it only means one cut
    across the roll for each section.  Easier, and avoids waste.)
    
    							-craig

    
    	Oops, let me P.S. my .9 reply.  Measure the the gap between
    the boards and then add an inch or so.  My gap measures 15 inches
    and so using the 16 inch insulation will pack the edges a bit better
    and avoid airgaps.
    							-c
    

    I believe 16" insulation is made for studding 16" on center.  The
    actual width is somewhat less so that it fits just about perfectly.
    
    What you don't say is the thickness.  I happened to have 6" batt
    material left over from the attic and used that.  Made one hell
    of a difference.

    
    	Details.  Yes, I forgot to suggest a thickness. :-(  6 inches
    sounds good.
    
    	Thanks for clearing up the width issue, also.  Since I haven't
    bought it yet, I made the silly mistake of thinking that something
    labeled "16 inches" is actually "16 inches".  Oh, I hate the
    measurement systems used in lumber stores!  (I wish they would say
    something like "15 inches wide -- fits 16 inch on-center beams.)
    
    	It really threw me off when I put in my patio.  Just when I
    was getting used to the notion of a 2x4 really being 1.5x3.5, I
    had to buy the spacer material.  No problem, hey, give me that 4
    inch stuff to match the height of the forms.  Well, it seems that
    concrete places use, gasp, *real* measurements!  I put the the spacer
    down and wondered where this extra 1/2 inch was coming from...
    
    	And I thought only fishermen used funny rulers!
    
    								-craig

    If you don't have an air feed (from the outside) to your furnace
    area, you are fighting a losing battle. All of the combustion air
    for the furnace comes out of your house, and up the vent. This leaves
    your house at a pressure differential compared to the outside. Every
    little pinhole all over your house becomes a draft. 
    
    

>    If you don't have an air feed (from the outside) to your furnace
>    area, you are fighting a losing battle. All of the combustion air
>    for the furnace comes out of your house, and up the vent. This leaves
>    your house at a pressure differential compared to the outside. Every
>    little pinhole all over your house becomes a draft. 

thanks, but not clear on the suggestion here - a tighter house? A more 
open house?    
    

    
    
    re.13 drafts. and air feed.
    
    I think the intent of that note is to sauggest a tighter house with
    an additional cold air return to you blower from outside. This ,
    according to my heating guy, does nothing more than add fresh air
    to the house and creates a possitive presure condition inside. A
    tighter house will retain moisture from showers etc. and the extra
    air from outside being forced through your furnce will now create
    a high pressure zone inside forcing the "pinholes" to draft out instead
    of in.
    
    As stated in other notes , seal the sill plate, check the fit of
    storm doors and windows, up stairs, check the seal of cellar windows
    and add dead air around the cellar walls preferably  with styrofoam 
    under panelling.   

    

>    I think the intent of that note is to sauggest a tighter house with
>    an additional cold air return to you blower from outside. This ,
>    according to my heating guy, does nothing more than add fresh air
>    to the house and creates a possitive presure condition inside. A
>    tighter house will retain moisture from showers etc. and the extra
>    air from outside being forced through your furnce will now create
>    a high pressure zone inside forcing the "pinholes" to draft out instead
>    of in.
    
Sorry, still missing this - is the suggestion to run a vent from 
outdoors into my furnace return - the comment about 'higher pressure 
inside' makes sense - but it sure sounds unconventional to me - does 
it work?
    

    Re.17,
    
    I dont think a input from outside is to good of an idea, as you
    must warm a colder air than if you use inside air. My house uses
    forced hot air, oil, but the furnace is seperated into two parts,
    heater and air return, which accounts for the extra set of non-working
    vents at floor level. I personally cannot see how a heater taking
    air from a room, heating it, then pumping it back in would result
    in a positive pressure. The only benifit is that you would, of course,
    have fresh air using outside input, but I have three little ones
    who take care of that problem...
    
    Regards,
    Colorado bob

    I recently moved to N.H. from Mn. In Minnesota the code called for a
    fresh air supply to the furnace for COMBUSTION air. This is mandatory
    for new construction and 'strongly recommended' as a change to existing
    houses.
    
    When the furnace starts up, it pulls in outside air to burn. You
    use an outside screened vent (like a dryer vent, but no flapper).
    
    Some new furnaces are made to be directly connected to the air vent. On
    regular furnaces, you just run the vent (insulated, flexible tubing)
    close to the furnace's combustion air intake. 
    
    Works great. Doesn't pressurize (positive pressure differential) the
    house, but eliminates the negative pressure differential. 
    
    Cold air comes pouring in when the furnace runs, but doesn't when
    it is off. Didn't make the room cool, even where it gets cold outside
    (Minnesota).

    You do need an outside air supply.
    re.2
    Exposed styrofoam is a fire hazard most I've seen has a warning
    printed on it stating must be covered with min XX" fire retardant
    material. It burns like gasoline and is not easy to extinguish once
    lit it & does give off highly toxic fumes when burning.
    
        
    
    -j
    
    

    Re styrofoam;
    
    If you wanted to finish the basement, and put up the foam, how would
    you bond, say, sheetrock to the foam in order to finish the walls?
    all methods I've ever seen called for framing in the walls, which
    would make my allready small basement even more so. I like the idea,
    but how? Corners and angles would seem to be a problem here. Any
    info on this is greatly appreciated.

    
    
    RE: .18
    

    The outside air is partially pre-heated by being mixed with the
    "cold air" being returned from the rooms. The pressure difrential
    is not so great that you would really notice it. Yes part of the
    outside air is diverted into the combustion chamber.
    

  Another suggestion I've heard is to run a 50' or 75' "breather" pipe 
  below the frost line so that the incoming air is warmed to 50 degrees
  or so before it enters the basement.

  JP    

    Use strapping(furring) strips you only lose 3/4" and the foam between
    the strips nail the sheetrock to the strips. Worked fine for me.
    You can also get shallow electrical boxes that will fit flush when
    used with 3/4" furring and 1/2-5/8" sheetrock.
    
    -j
    

re Note 1854.23 by MYCRFT::PARODI:

>   Another suggestion I've heard is to run a 50' or 75' "breather" pipe 
>   below the frost line so that the incoming air is warmed to 50 degrees

    
    	It shouldn't be, as long as the joints are sealed well...
    
    							-c
    

  Re: .25

  The breather tube is getting its air from the great outdoors -- if that
  air has radon in it, you're out of luck anyway.  If you use solid as
  opposed to perforated PVC pipe, you should be ok, no? 

  JP

    .24:
    
    Do keep an eye on the volume of the box, versus the size & number
    of conductors.  I just did that thing, with 2x4's, and I needed
    the whole 3.5 inches to accomodate the deeper box which the code
    appeared (to me) to require for 2 12-2 cables.  (I need a machine
    room.)
    
    Dick
    

   
    If you use solid piping radon is not a problem. BUT condensation
    is. Even in the summer air will be moving through the pipe. Water
    may accumulate and along with that all the nasties that you may
    find in standing water. If you run the pipe above (next to the celing)
    and then down to the furnace you could be creating a chiminy effect.
    This is what you wanted to overcome in the first place.
    
    The best thing is to have an air tight system from the outside into
    the combustion chamber of the furnace. This way no air would be
    removed from the house. Would a problem be created when the wind
    is blowing outside? I'm not to shure, anybody?
    Maybe have a damper controlled by the gas solinoid for the inlet?
    
    Good ideas so far.

    I'm about   to   insulate  my  basement  walls  above  the  cement
    foundation.  The  question  is  can I use foil-faced fiberglass? I
    would  install  it with the foil towards the basement as my energy
    auditor  recommended,  but  the  fiberglass  packaging says not to
    leave the foil exposed as it will burn. It would be a real pain to
    sheetrock  over  the  insulation,  not  to  mention making it much
    harder to get to some of the wiring.

--David

    We were planning on putting up the sheetrock over the basement
    insulation, but possibly leaving it untaped.  That way we ought
    to be able to unscrew any pieces if we needed to get at the wiring
    or plumbing.  Fortunately, we only have two or three seems to worry
    about, so I think it will look fine for an unfinished basement.
    Is this a reasonable idea?
    
    Also, we haven't given any consideration at all to the small bats
    of insulation in the places where the foundation almost reaches
    the first floor.  I can't imagine having to fasten 1 by 1 pieces
    of sheet rock to these areas, especially since the only place to
    fasten them would be the sill.  I'd rather ignore them, but if
    necessary I'd replace them with unfaced fiberglass.
    
       Gary

    I'd be  dealing  with  the areas where the foundation almost meets
    the  first floor. That area is between 1 and 2 feet. Sheet rocking
    that height (by 150 linear feet, the house is 50' x25') strikes me
    as a major pain. In parts of the house I would be using 1' long by
    16" wide pieces of insulation, in other parts I would use 20' long
    pieces   (depending   on   whether  the  joists  are  parallel  or
    perpendicular  to  the wall.) Can I use unfaced insulation or do I
    need  the  vapor barrier? If I need the vapor barrier do I need to
    worry about the fire hazard of the foil facing?

    I'd like  to put up foil-faced if that's not a fire hazard because
    the  facing  will help to keep the amount of fiberglass dust down.
    If I can't do that what should I do?

--David

    re -.1
    
    If you are talking about something like a wall, where you don't
    have to stuff the insulation into crevices and cracks, then have
    you considered the sheet insulation.  I think there is styrofoam,
    and something which has a brand name on it that is supposed to be
    considerably better.  These might solve your problem.  You could
    cut them to the size you need, so different sized areas would be
    covered.  They are supposed to be able to be left uncovered, as
    far as I know.
    
    One other possibility is to go with unfaced insulation and put a
    plastic sheeting over the insulation.  This would eliminate the
    possible dust and still give you the vapor barrier which I assume
    you are looking for.
    
    Ed..
    

    All sheet  insulation  that I could find burns and givew off toxic
    fumes.  It's  much  worse than fiberglass in that respect. Since I
    can't  sheetrock  over  it  easily,  I'm  going  to use fiberglass
    (either foil faced or unfaced with plastic over it).

--David

       I will soon be moving into an old (circa 1844) farmhouse which
    currently has virtually no insulation.  The previous tenants thought
    that the best way to insulate the floors was to put down wall-to-wall
    with double padding (no joke!).  Anyway, I need to insulate the
    first floor floor (or should I say, the basement ceiling).
    
       The basement is a mix of dirt-floor-fieldstone and a 3 foot
    crawlspace.  The fieldstone section is about 14' x 14' and the
    crawlspace area is a total of about 300 sq. ft.  I've checked the
    floor joists, and they are (fortunately) about 16" oc.
    
       My question is:  After installing the paper-backed fiberglass
    between the joists (paper-side facing the living space) do I need
    to put an additional plastic sheet between the fiberglas and the
    crawlspace?  The crawlspace is not open to the outside air as it
    is bordered by a short fieldstone foundation.  Judging from the
    dirt in the crawlspace area, the air in there is pretty dry, although
    that could be due to air exchange through the uninsulated first
    floor.  I'm planning to use R11.  I don't think R19 will fit.  Should
    I shoot for R19 or will R11 do the job (since it's floor insulation)?
    
                                        
                                     		Rick

    
    RE: .12
    
    I would think the floor joists would be bigger than 2x4's!  If they
    are then you can fit R-19, or more.   I'd put as much as possible
    filling to the bottom of the joists.  But before doing that, I'd get
    some silicone caulk and seal the sill along the top of the foundation
    and any other holes/cracks/gaps.
    
    I'd put the plastic sheet on the dirt floor, not the joists.
    
    If the floor is still cold after doing these things, then you might
    put some insulation (rigid or fiberglass) along the fieldstone.
    But this probably won't be necessary.
    
    Phil

    Yes, you want the vapor barrier on the insulation up (next to the
    bottom of the floor) and no, you don't want plastic on the bottom
    of the insulation.  I concurr with .13, put the plastic on the dirt
    floor of the crawl space, if you put it anywhere, to keep the
    moisture from coming up out of the dirt.
    
    The insulation will help, and so will sealing cracks in the foundation
    to keep out drafts.  But, you've got to realize that there is no
    way you're going to turn the house into the equivalent of a modern,
    well-insulated, tight house unless you do a lot of remodeling, which
    (I think) would most likely destroy a lot of the character of the
    house.  You live in an old house - antiques can be very charming,
    but they can be very uncomfortable to live in sometimes!  

    
    I also have a similar type problem.
    
    I bought a old house that is set on a Field Stone foundation. About
    5 years after they built the house they added on a family room and
    underground, well almost, garage.
    
    The family room sits over the garage. The roof/floor of the garage/room
    is made of re enforced concrete. The roof has a foil paper with
    what appears to be a tar that was probably used for a adhesive.
    
    They have a fireplace and a steam radiator in the room, but there
    isn't enough heat to really keep it warm.
    
    I do intend on putting in a wood burning stove into the fireplace,
    as the fireplace box is shot.
    
    Without upgrading the present heating system to provide more heat
    I would like to insulate the floor somehow, or maybe install some
    heating unit onto the ceiling.
    
    The garage is low, perhaps 6 feet high. The foundation of the garage
    is cinder block. There is a decrepit overhead door which I will
    replace. On two sides there is loam up to the floor level, the cellar
    on another and of course the opening.
    
    What, how is the best way to accomplish this?
    
    The room and roof are totally insulated.
    
    Cal.
    

    
    Have you tried to adjust your heating system to keep the room
    warmer?  Insulating is certainly a good idea, but there are
    ways to warm up the room with the steam heat.
    
    If the radiator in the garage is not getting hot enough soon enough,
    you can adjust the airvents in the rest of the house to a slower
    speed, and adjust the air vent in the garage radiator to a higher 
    speed. Also check to make sure the pipe to that radiator is well 
    insulated. If the heating system cannot keep up in the cold weather 
    you may be able to increase the nozzle size of the burner (provided 
    your boiler has enough capacity).  If the radiator is too small to heat
    the room, you could replace it with a larger one.
    
    As for insulation, there are many notes on the subject, and I doubt
    that I have anything original too add.
    
    -tm
    

    Let me re-open this topic just for confirmation - perhaps some of
    the more recent participants have further input:
    
    I have a vacation cabin with a crawlspace.  Dirt floor but conventional
    concrete (half) walls.  There is a conventional 1' or so concrete
    exposure around the house before the framing starts.  No insulation in
    crawlspace anywhere.  Tons of it elsewhere, particularly in the roof.
    This is in the middle of the woods and on the coast.  The crawlspace is
    VERY damp. 
    
    In the winters I shut down the heat entirely between visits (electric,
    need I say more?).  When reheating the cabin the floors are absolutely
    ice cold for a good long time even after the rest of the place has
    come up to heat.  I suspect I'm waiting for the house to heat the
    crawspace before the floors will warm up.
    
    So I want to insulate and the choice as stated earlier in this note
    is between putting insulation in the floor joists, or, insulating
    the crawlspace perimeter (incl band joists).  The former effectively
    puts the crawlspace "outside", and the latter treats the crawlspace as
    part of the "inside".  Yes there are pipes and a well holding tank
    in the crawlspace.
    
    The tradeoff seems to be that approach (1) is more energy efficient
    because the insulated volume is smaller and a dirt floor is not
    forming one of the boundaries of the insulated area, but it risks
    pipe/tank freezeup. Approach (2) is probably cheaper/simpler, but
    is it effective?  Methinks perhaps it is - I can see ice on the
    inside of the above-ground concrete as well as the band joists.

    RE: .6
    
    I'd bo both, as well as put 4-6 mill plastic on the ground and heat
    tape on the pipes to keep them from freezing.  I assume you drain
    everything when you're not there in the winter.

    You mentioned DAMPNESS.  A plastic barrier on the floor of your
    crawl space would significantly reduce the moisture in the crawl space
    and consequently in the house above.  I would recommend putting
    down the plastic regardless of location of insulation because the
    plastic will keep the moisture out of the insulation (which reduces
    the effectiveness of insulation).
    
    The idea with insulation is too completely surround the area in
    which you want to control the temperature.  That way, whatever temp.
    is inside the envelope will stay that temp.  The outside temp. will
    have less effect on the interior temp. 

    The insulation between the joists will stop heat sink.  The cold air in
    the crawl space draws the hot air from the house into the crawl space
    there by making the house harder to heat and making the floors cold.
    Hot air always flows to cold air.

    Before insulating, seal up all holes for utilities which enter
    the house.  All holes for plumbing, phone, electric, and any other
    holes should be filled.  I like the foam in a can.  It is easy to
    apply, fits all shapes and its fun to play with.  This will stop
    air infiltration and the dead air spaces will become dead and act
    as an insulator.

    I like the idea of putting rigid insulation up around the perimeter of
    the crawl space.  It is not effected by moisture, it can be cut to the
    correct size and glued in place, it is not effected by contact with the
    ground, and it is not the itchy job to install that Fiberglas is.  It
    also has the added bonus of providing both a wind and moisture barrier. 
    
    I also agree that you should insulate all your pipes.  The foam
    tubes come in different R-values (for different prices) and different
    sizes based on the pipe material and diameter.  Since you are in
    Maine, you probably should also add the electric heat tape.  As
    a $$$ saver, put the heat tape on a thermostat.  When the temp. drops
    to x degrees, it cuts on and heats the pipes.

    

    another way is also insulate with reflectix it is a 4ft wide sheet
    of 1/4in bubble wrap faced on both sides with foil this stuff is
    real good for anything the idea of it is to reflect the heat which
    it does real well. the cost is about $1.50 a ln ft
    
    other uses walls,ceilings,pipes,water heaters you name it
    
    paul

    I'd be REAL careful of the heat tape.  I've seen several articles
    in the paper recently about fires being started by using this stuff.
    My first reaction was that the stuff was not installed properly
    or that is had seen some form of abuse.
    
    The fire chief of Milford NH (I think) was recommending that it
    be replaced every 2 years.  That seems to be awfully expensive and
    a lot of work.  I would not use it unless there was truly 'no other
    way' to protect the pipes.
    
    It seems that the heat tape is self destructive.  The action of
    heating and cooling causes the insulation to deteriorate to the
    point of shorting out after what I think is a very short time.
    
    How do they get away with selling this stuff ???

    Hmmm.  I'm not getting a clear consensus.  I do hear you about the
    barrier on the floor - but moisture retardation is a separate issue
    and I don't want it to confuse the basic question.
    
    A builder friend says that a dirt floor four feet down is probably
    going to be 55 degrees all year round.  So all floor-joist insulation
    seems to be doing is keeping out the cold which infiltrates from the
    crawlspace perimeter (and then only that part without dirt on the other
    side. If that's the case, why don't I just insulate the perimeter and
    skip the joists?  It's one third the area (i.e. cost) and I don't fancy
    laying on my back with fiberglass in my face for a day. 

    Assuming this is the answer, what's the best implementation technique
    and material?  The profile of the perimeter is:
    
    	      ---------------------    
              |                       subfloor
              ---------------------
              |    |
              |    |                  band joist
              |    |
              |    |
              -----------
              |         |             sill
              ---------------
              |             |
              |             |         concrete wall
              |             |
              |             |
              |             |

    Some kind of rigid board stuff isn't going to work.  Should I staple
    fiberglass to the wood parts and then just let it hang down the
    concrete?   Regardless of material, what kind of adhesive is going to
    work on damp concrete? 

    Well, since there are about 100 insulation topics, I figure I'll
    just pick the original one and bring it back to life.
    
    My split has 2x6 kneewall on all four sides.  The builder insulated
    it with 3 1/2" faced fiberglass.  This was included with the price
    of the house.  I thought it was way overpriced for them to put in
    6" insulation so I stayed with the 3 1/2".  Now, is there any reason
    I can't take the 3 1/2" faced out, put in 3 1/2" unfaced, then put
    the 3 1/2" faced back over it?  Sure, it adds up to 7" but it
    compresses easy enough, and it's WAY cheaper than tossing it and
    buying 6".  I also want to do the same thing with the ceiling too.
    
         Chris D.
    
    p.s. The downstairs is presently un-finished so now's the time to
    do it.
    

    
    You may be able to get away with it, but don't compress the
    instullation too much or it looses it effectiveness.
    
    Mike

    For what it's worth:
    
    The guy who did the energy audit in our house a week ago said they're
    now advising people not to use a vapor barrier (the facing) on the
    section of wall immediately above the foundation.  This is an area
    that is most prone to attack by moisture from the outside, so you're
    better off replacing the insulation periodically than having to
    replace the sill.  My personal opinion is that this makes sense,
    but that I think a dehumidifier in the basement is a must if you
    decide to omit the vapor barrier.
    
       Gary

    re: .4  But I will be finishing off the cellar so the insulation
    I put in will be permanent.  There will also be heat down there
    too.
    
    re: .3  Now that you mention it, I remember hearing something about
    compressed insulation not being as effective.  I wonder if compressing
    1" is too much?  I've never seen a 2" unfaced.  Is 3 1/2" the lowest I
    can get?  
    
    Chris D.

    > I remember hearing something about compressed insulation not being
    >as effective.  I wonder if compressing 1" is too much??
    
    Fiberglass insulation works by creating pockets of dead air.  If
    you compress the insulation, there are fewer pockets of air.  The
    insulation is less effective.  Is 1" compression too much???  It
    depends on what you feel is an effective R rating for you walls.
    6" insulation with vapor barrier is normally rated as R-19.  3 1/2"
    insulation with vapor barrier is normally about R-11 to R-13.  By
    compressing the insulation 1", you are reducing the R-value probably
    by 2 or 3 R-value (guesstimate).  What can you live with??

	Rather than making guesses, I'd suggest calling the manufacturer,
explain the situation and ask them what the effective R value would be for the
compressed insulation.  I'm sure they have tested the insulation in different
circumstances and would know the R value.  Then you could make a knowledgeable
comparison of the options.

	As to the "double the cost for 27% more insulation", this choice is
something that you'll have to make.  Remember, though, that the doubling of
the cost is a one-shot deal (that increases the value of the home, also) while
the 27% more insulating value is forever.  You'll have to decide which is more
important to you.

								-craig

Note:  Although the numbers I used in my previous response are in the right
ballpark, I took them entirely from memory, so they should not be taken as 
completely correct.

Paul

>the cost is a one-shot deal (that increases the value of the home, also) while

    I'd disagree that *adding* insulation to the basement walls would
    have any affect on the value of the house. 
    
    Insulating an uninsulated house, or substantially increasing insulation
    throughout the house might have an effect, but increasing insulation in
    the basement area will not affect market value. 
    
    The only value in this case would be the comfort factor and possible
    fuel savings - both probably minor - but something you'd have to judge.

    I figure that paying for the insulation once will save me every
    year on heating bills.  Sure, it may not be alot, but it will add
    up.
    I'm really not concerned with market value right now.  I just had
    the house put up less than a year ago so we'll be here for a long
    time.
    I like the idea of calling the manufacturer.  I'll have to see if
    I can find a number and give it a shot.
    
    Chris D.

    I used to have a split w/ the same kneewall situation you've got.
    If you plan on finishing the lower level here's a suggestion.  You'll
    probably end up framing a wall against the cement foundation.  Before
    you do, get some 1" styrofoam insulation (available in 2'x 8' or
    4'x 8' sheets) and glue it to the walls all around where you want
    to finish.  
    
    Frame the walls w/ 2x4's.  Use the 3 1/2" insulation presently in
    your 2x6 walls.  Put a vapor barrier along the insulation and studs.
    Cover w/ sheetrock.
    
    Get the 6" insulation, preferably foil-faced (if available) and
    put it in your 2x6 wall.  Cover w/ sheetrock.
    
    All other normal building "stuff" and code "stuff" as applies. 
    EG. Run wiring for electrical outlets, plumbing or wiring for heat,
    wall switches and wiring for ceiling light fixtures (or track
    lighting), and wiring for built in wall lighting.
    
    	Ted
    
    	PS  It took us about 7 years to do all that in our old split.
     Then we moved, only to start over in a new house.  (sigh)

    That's right.  I will be framing he cement portion.  I never thought
    of moving the insulation.  Thanks.
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s.  You glue the 1" styrofoam to the cement and then frame over
    it?  I always thought you layed it between the studs.

    > You glue the 1" styrofoam to the cement and then frame over
    > it?  I always thought you layed it between the studs.
    
    You can put it between the studs, but then you end up with your
    original problem of compressing your insulation.  I put it right
    on the cement, then framed.  This will end up giving you about a
    12" shelf all around your room.  Kind of useful.  In fact, we bought
    some kitchen wall cabinets and put them across one wall.  The effect
    was like a built in wall unit.  Looked very nice, and provided plenty
    of storage area.  In fact, we never did fill up all the cabinets.
    
    It was quite a difference in the room temperature after just having
    the styrofoam glued to the cement.
    
    	Ted

    When finishing the kneewall, give yourself a little playing room
    between the cement wall and the framing.  I'll bet the cement wall is
    bowed a little in spots were the weight of the cement pushed out the
    form a bit...
    
    
    John B.

    Here's a kicker on this subject from a architect/builder friend
    who specializes in insulation/vapor barriers/etc.
    
    Watch out for excessive R-values on basement walls in very cold
    climates!   Seems that the heat leakage through a concrete wall (about
    R 1) keeps the ground in immediate contact with the outside of the
    foundation from freezing.  If that leakage is taken away in a climate
    with a very deep frost penetration and the dirt freezes solid right up
    to the wall, the expansion of ground can crack or even collapse the
    basement wall. 

    How much of a problem depends on wall thickness and the quality of the
    re-enforcing job (if any!). 
    
    He recommends limiting basement wall insulation to R4-6 if you suspect
    a possible problem.  Heat loss through the below-grade portion of
    the basement-wall is fairly limited anyway.  You can insulate the
    hell out of the wall portion which is exposed on the outside. 

    Before I glue the styrofoam panels on, am I supposed to paint or
    coat the foundation with something?  
    
    Chris D.

    I didn't.  And you shouldn't need too much glue either, since you'll
    be placing framing members up against it before too long.  The framing
    will help hold it in place.
    
    	Ted

    During the fall I was discussing doing the basement of my house
    over with a representative of a water proofing/drainage company.
    At that time he recommended not insulating or installing a vapor
    barrier.  He said moisture can reach the barrier in two ways, by 
    coming through the basement wall or from the moisture introduced
    into the room itself through the floor.
    
    He claimed that any moisture reaching the vapor barrier runs down 
    the barrier to the floor leading to mildew problems with the lower
    two or three feet of the wall.  Instead of insulating and putting
    in a vapor barrier, he recommended just framing and sheetrocking
    the walls and running a dehumidifier to remove the moisture.  He
    claims to get a lot a calls to deal with this problem after people
    do the basements over, insulate the walls, install a vapor barrier,
    and end up with ruined walls.
    
    In the previous replies, styrofoam was placed between the foundation
    wall and the stud wall.  Was this to prevent moisture coming through
    the foundation wall?  What about moisture from the floor?
    
    Since my basement requires us to run a dehumidifier to keep the
    moisture level down, I don't want to get the job done only to end
    up with problems.  How does the above advice compare with your
    experiences?

    i'm going to need to do something to finish the exposed
    part of my foundation insulation.
    
    my last house i used that stuff that .4 mentioned.... you paint
    it on , it is a mixture of some kind of cement and fiberglass hairs.
    
    after some time that stuff started to flake off, and it did not
    take much of a tap to get it to fall right off.... i'm looking for
    something a little bit more durable.
    
    any suggestions ?????
    
    

re: Note 993.6 by HPSCAD::DANCONA 

      Our  home  uses  preasure  treated  plywood.  The clapboard siding
      covers the top of the plywood, which continues about 2'  into  the
      ground.   Our  home  uses  a stress-skin insulation pannel for the
      outside walls.  They are mounted on the outside of a post and beam
      frame. The resul is that the exterior wall just continues straight
      into the ground, because the insulation on the  foundatin  is  the
      same  thickness as the stress-skin.  (At ground level, that is; it
      gets thinner lower down.)

    I read an article recently in The Journal of Light Construction
    that said extruded and bead-board insulation is a home for carpenter 
    ants. The carpenter ants are attracted to this material because it can
    be easily tunneled through for their nest.
    
    I wasn't really comforted by this article because I too have 
    extruded foam insulation wrapping the entire foundation of my
    home. The way it is tucked under the sill makes it easy access
    for them to chomp at the band joists and up into the external walls.
                                        
    	Steve

    I am thinking of putting this foam insulation on my new foundation
    before it gets backfilled. The pieces are toungue and groved and
    are  2"x2'x8'. I was surprised at how expensive they are. One piece costs
    almost $10. But they also make them 1" thick.
     
    Since these pieces are 8' high. the same height of most new
    foundations, I assumed that these 8' pieces are nailed to the entire
    length of the foundation. 
    
    Does anyone think I should cut the pieces in half and go down 4'?
    The idea sounds cheap to me. 

When you are insulating a foundation, you should run the insulation down
below the frost line -- I forget exactly how much further, I think it's
something like 18".  Down there, the soil stays within a few degrees of
the yearly average temperature all year round.  So there's no point in
insulating any deeper.  

Can anyone say how far down the frost line is in various parts of NE?
Why not insulate inside the foundation, instead of outside?

	Larry

    re. .10 "Why not insulate on the inside?"
    
    I remember reading that there have been problems with inside insulation
    in that it allows (potential) the ground freeze to reach the foundation
    walls on the outside and exert pressure on the walls directly. 
    Although external insulation also allows the groundfreeze to reach the
    structure the foam itself absorbs the pressure and thus protects the
    rigid walls.
    
    _Stan

    .11:
    
    May we assume that this does not pertain to cellar floors, and that one
    may insulate them?
    
    Dick

    one reason to insulate on the outside of the concrete foundation
    is to create insulated thermal mass.

    My remembrance to external vs. internal foundation insulation refers
    to the walls only.  The point raised in .12 about the walls being used
    as thermal mass storage would also apply to cellar floors if you
    insulated below that also.  Of course that's a project you must do
    before pouring the concrete, unlike the wall option which you can do
    after they're poured.
    
    -Stan

As it was taught to me (in a graduate level architecture class on energy
efficient building design), there is very little point in insulating cellar
floors.  The floor feels cold because concrete conducts heat well -- any
kind of a pad and rug will fix that problem.  But the soil under the
cellar floor stays at the same temperature over day and night and season
to season, and that temperature is not all that low (although it varies
with the region -- I seem to recall 55 degrees as a typical example).  

Besides that, the earth under your cellar floor acts as thermal mass,
and loses relatively little heat to the frozen ground above the frost
line -- nearly all of your heat loss occurs through the cellar walls
down to a couple of feet below the frost line.

So spending money to insulate your floor just isn't worth it.  Better
to spend more money insulating the walls.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I live on a hilltop, and my bulkhead is pointed north, where the wind comes
from. There's another door at the basement entrance, which helps, but could
be better.

Apart from weatherstripping the inner door, does anyone have ideas about
how to keep drafts down?

b

    re most of .20-28 (bringing outside air in to support furnace
    combustion):
    
    1.  Don't you think that a negative pressure differential in your
    	basement could contribute to the presence of radon?
    
    2.	I was looking over the documentation to a nice, new furnace
    	(gas-fed FHA), of something like 40K or 50K BTU.  (It appeared
    	to be in the middle of the manufacturer's range of products).
    	Documentation says that one can install it without adding air
    	sources from the outside IF it is installed in a basement that is
    	not partitioned;  in tighter quarters, their installation required
    	both an inlet and an outlet for ventilation.  I don't recall them
    	making any remarks about "how small can I make it before I need
    	external ventilation";  one thing I found surprising is the need
    	for air to EXIT the building -- isn't that what the chimney's for?
    
    At any rate, I'm interested in knowing more about this sort of thing,
    before making any expensive decisions.
    
    Dick

    .33:
    
    Yes, I was surprised because the documentation stated that an inlet
    *and outlet* was required;  it had sketches showing how to do it with
    different placements of these vents, and specified some sizes (oh,
    which should not be covered with anything more restrictive than 1/4"
    wire mesh, by the way!).
    
    The question about radon was simply that, as you say, air has to come
    in from somewhere to balance the air leaving via the chimney;  I
    wondered if having a negative pressure differential would encourage
    air infiltration, not only through every crack and pinhole above the
    foundation, but also through cracks and holes IN the foundation, and
    (depending on your situation) bring radon with it).
    
    I'll have to see if I can locate this info about this furnace, though --
    it made me wonder how many houses may have subtle problems to go with
    their finished basements.
    
    Dick
        

    Well, I've got the straight dope here.  This is from the furnace doc:
    
    "AIR REQUIREMENTS -- The furnace must be supplied with adequate
    combustion and ventilation air in accordance with Section 5.3, "Air
    for Combusiton and Ventilation", National Fuel Gas Code NFPA54/ANSI
    Z223.1, 1984, or applicable provisions of local building codes.  Most
    homes will require that outside air be supplied to the furnace area by
    means of ventilation grilles or ducts connecting directly to the
    outside or spaces open to the outdoors such as attic or crawl spaces. 
    The only exception is when the furnace area meets the requirements and
    definitions for an unconfined space with adequate air infiltration as
    defined by the National Fuel Gas Code."
    
    The doc goes on to say that "an unconfined space, (such as an open
    basement), must have a minimum volume of 50 cubic feet per 1000 Btuh
    of total of all appliances in area.", and provides a table showing
    the minimum area in square feet for certain BTUh ratings, assuming 
    that you've got 8-foot ceilings.
    
    It then goes on to state
    	"If the area is an unconfied space, provide an opening(s) having a
    total free area of 1 sq. inch per 4000 Btuh of the total of all
    appliances."  and refers to tables showing the Btuh rating of several
    different round ducts, and a table of duct areas for several Btuh
    ratings.  The duct is supposed to terminate no more than 12 inches
    above the floor.
    
    I must say that I have yet to see any basement with such ducting -- and
    this includes some houses built within the past 12 months!
    
    The doc also discusses ventilation requirements in "a room or area
    considered as confined space".  This can be synopsized as "an air
    intake of 1 sq-inch/4000Btuh, terminating no more than 12" above
    the floor, and an air exhaust of the same ratio, terminating no more
    than 12" below the ceiling".
    
    
    At any rate, I read this, and it looks like I need a pair of vents a
    minimum of 6.5 inches in diameter, if they're round.  Until a couple of
    hours ago, I had never seen any round vents bigger than the 4-inch
    clothes-drier vents, so I was tearing my hair.  (I dropped by one of
    the chains tonight to get some eyehooks for hanging a picture, and
    spent more time looking at sheet metal and vents, than at the eyehooks;
    I saw 6" round vents and ducting, but the only thing bigger was a 3.5
    by 10" rectangular vent.)
    
    I wondered, before encountering these larger vents, if it would be [A]
    reasonable, and [B] code-worthy, to use a pair of 4-inch vents, the
    input of which was fitted with a 4-inch fan, controlled by the
    thermostat.  (I'm assuming that either 24-volt relays exist, or a
    12-volt zener diode plus a 12-volt relay would work.)
    
    Dick

    Has anyone ever tried putting TYVEK in your house ?  I have
    an insulation ceiling and my cellar and I'm concerned that some
    of the fiberglass my be floating down.  I could put up sheetrock
    BUT .. it seems it would be easier to put TYVEK up to just hold
    the fibers up there.  TYVEK is SUPPOSED to BREATH so ... it
    sounded good.
    
    Bob O.
    

    This may answer my question about using a fan -- with a "NO" --
    but it's not clear to me why.  Does anyone have opinions?
    
    (This is from the section on "Vent Pipe Installation")
    
    "This category 1 furnace has a natural draft vent system and must not
    be connected into any portion of a mechanical draft operating under
    positive pressure."
    
    Dick

    OK in theory, but kindof expensive.   I've seen chicken wire used for
    this purpose.   Or those insulation securing wires you snap between the
    joists.
    
    NB undisturbed fiberglass insulation won't float down to any important
    extent.

    
    It doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.  I sure wouldn't want exposed
    fiberglass in a livingspace.  The fibers can infiltrate your lungs.
    With an electric staple gun Tyvek or Typar would be easy to put in.
    

	I don't know the cost of Tyvek, but it's a synthetic, so there must be
	cheaper alternatives.

	For example, brown paper (ala butcher paper) would mechanically
	do the job (as it does on faced insulation batts).  To open the paper
	to breathe, just jab it with an X-Acto knife (looks better than 
	slashing it, as recommended for the faced batts).

	If you're not worried about looks, you might consider a layer or two
	of newspaper, again with the puncture holes.  Sure, it will only last
	10 or 20 years because of the acid in the paper, but the per diem cost
	is hard to beat.

	You could check with a local gardening place.  There are lots of
	promising left-overs at the end of a season:  Reemay, for example. 
	Of course, they may want you to actually *pay* for the stuff.

	Cardboard would work well, too.  As soon as we move, I could give you
	a lot of cardboard.

	You'll need staples to hold the covering in place, regardless of the
	material.

	-andy kegel@krisis

    Great idea, an exposed flammable surface just waiting for an over-
    heated furnace duct, or a spark, or whatever.  Real good for helping
    any fire that ever DOES start spread across the whole house!  Brown
    paper or newspaper probably is NOT the first thing I'd try.  The
    Tyvek sounds interesting, but you'd want to check whether or not it
    is flammable.  The building codes frown on exposed flammable material
    as "part" of the structure.
    
    Sounds like a short cut to a fire hazard to me.

	Fire codes are obviously important, but paranoia about fire can be
	counter-productive.  Please excuse me if I implied that one should
	intentionally place flammable materials in close proximity to an
	ignition source;  such was not my intent.  Examine your environment
	and choose a solution that is appropriate.  Read the fire codes.

	The original note said something about a cellar;  I mentally extended
	that to include attics.  Lots of folks have insulation with kraft-paper
	backing installed in both areas.  The safety of a cellar or attic full 
	of old furniture, books, and magazines need not be compromised
	by the addition of some cardboard.

	I promise to digress no more.  Let's all lighten up, shall we?

	"Flame on."	(did he really say that?  bad puns?  here?  moan...
	Sheriff - arrest that man.)

	In a house full of kiln-dried 2x4s, fire hazards come in many forms:
	worn wiring, overloaded circuits, improper wiring, fireplaces and
	wood stoves, appliances, old rags, chemical storage (paint and
	automotive, among others), stored newspapers for recycling, creosote,
	smouldering arguments,  flashing tempers,  sparks of creativity,
	asphalt and cedar shingles, curtains, sawdust, scrap wood, cars,
	natural gas leaks, sewer gas, lightning strikes, careless children, 
	and careless adults.  No one would suggest adding to those hazards.  
	I certainly did not mean to.

	Paper burns at Fahrenheit 451 (remember the book title?).  If your
	furnace overheats to that degree (pun intended), then you have
	problems more serious than fiberglas fragments.

	If you have floating sparks in the cellar, then you should identify
	the source and put it out.  I suggest a fire extinguisher.  Pronto.
	Either that, or get a Fairie Extinguisher.  (Save Tinkerbelle!)

	Now, back to our regularly scheduled digression...

      A  concern  was expressed earlier about fiberglass fibers floating
      about in the air.  From this  I  conclude  that  people  use  this
      basement  on  a regular basis, making it an "occupied" part of the
      building.  I understand that it is a code violation to  leave  the
      craft  paper  on  insulation  exposed  in  "occupied"  parts  of a
      building.  No one expects  that  there  will  be  sparks  floating
      around.   However  if  people are present it is likely that flames
      will be sometimes be present too.  Some folks like  candle  light,
      and others are STILL smoking.  
      
      No,  one  should  not become paranoind about fire danger.  But one
      should  follow  code  requirements  and  take   other   reasonable
      precautions to reduce fire hazzard.
      
      I  would  not  use  Tyvek  (or  similar)  or  paper  to  cover the
      insulation.  If the only interest is keeping  it  up  between  the
      joists,  then  drive  some small nails about 16 inches apart along
      the joists and string a small wire in a zig-zag patter to hold the
      insulation.  For a more finished appearance and to keep fiberglass
      dust in its place install a ceiling of a  cheap  insulation  board
      (also  called  Homesote  or  something like that I think) or maybe
      1/4" plywood (underlayment grade) -- or even sheetrock, if  you're
      really  ambitious.   Another idea would be to install an acoustial
      ceiling, either suspended or fastened to straping  nailed  on  the
      joists. 

    If the basement is used as occasional living space I would 
    recommend something more permanent.  If cost is your overriding
    factor how about some of the lowest grade ceiling tiles that
    Grossmans/channels/at. el. put on sale all the time.  They are
    not very good quality, they will not meet most Yuppie' aesthetic
    tastes, but they go up with a few staples (very easily) and are very
    inexpensive.  

    If your going to use the space to the degree that open Fiberglas
    batting concerns you I don't think any of they previous solutions
    would be advisable from both a fire and aesthetic perspective.

    -JFK-

    Well, I guess that there is less interest here than I had anticipated.
    Any opinions on the availability of _National_Fuel_Gas_Code NFPA54/ANSI
    Z223.1 (of 1984), in one's local library?
    
    Dick

RE:.35,.36,.37

Dick,

	Lets try to answer your questions for you. I have not had
any reason to read the GAS code yet. I don't own anything that runs on GAS.

I believe the reason for having both an inlet and exaust vent in the code is
the fact that some furnaces have valves shutting off the chiminy flue to
save exaust heat. Other reasons would be to provide more air exchanges
for preventing GAS leak buildups.

	As far as why many house you have seen without this. Must not
be up to code...

	As far as the size of the vents. Does the documentation specify that
you must use only one inlet and exaust vent? I don't see why you couldn't
place four 4" vent pipes (2 for intake, 2 for exaust) to meet the requireements.

You didn't specify if this GAS furnace is being installed in a closet or
the open basement. Are you planning to install this into a small room in the
basement?

			Bill

    Yeah, I vaguely remember a discussion (on a different page) of some
    stuff dealing with flues, so that may be a major consideration.
    
    The furnace documentation states that the sum of all the vents must
    equal a certain area (1 sq. inch per 4000 BTU), for the sum of *all*
    gas-consuming devices.  It also thoughtfully provides a table showing
    the maximum consumption, in BTUs, for round vents of diameters from 
    something like 3" to 7" or 8", in increments of an inch.  As the total
    consumption (furnace + water heater) is about 130000 BTU, the smallest
    single, round vent that meets this spec is a 7".  Unfortunately, 4"
    vents (according to this table) are good for only 50000 BTU;  I'd need
    *three* of them for input, and *three* more for output.  (The
    aesthetics of this sound dubious...)
    
    I've since started nosing around the local (big chain) purveyors of
    these vents;  while I have not yet found 7" round vents (can you get
    a hole-saw that big??), I did discover that one can get rectangular
    vents 3.5 by 10 inches, which would do the job (along with the typical
    sheet metal ducting, to bring the intake down to within 12" of the
    floor).  Sounds more complicated than boring a round hole and plugging
    in the round vent and round ducting, but if it meets code...
    
    Bill, I didn't mean to ignore your last question.  The furnace is
    already installed, for good or ill, in a basement with nothing more than 
    3 lally columns partitioning it.  What started this off was a discussion 
    about partitioning and finishing the basement;  the "boiler room" that 
    would be left would be slightly under 8' x 12' (with the partitions placed
    with an eye to clearances for fire safety, and maintenance).
    
    Dick

Dick,
	You will find installing the 3 x 10 vents easier. YOu find where
you want it to connect to the outside. Draw the 3 x 10 on the inside. Drill
all the corners to the outside. On the outside, use a jig saw and connect the
holes. Just slip in the new vent.

					Bill

P.S. For holes over 4" I cut them out with a jig saw too.

    
    Brown Paper?  Newspaper?  Boy, you guys are cheap!  As I see it, the 
    advantage of using something like Tyvek or Typar is that it is 
    neat, easy to put up, not *that* expensive, and when he puts in the
    ceiling, he won't need to remove it.
    
    As far as flamability goes, that is definitely an issue, and it's
    **much** easier to burn newspaper than plastic.  Plastic will tend
    to melt, but it takes a *lot* for it to actually burn.  Those of you
    who think that 456 degrees Farenheight is a remote possibility should
    have seen the meltdown of my furnace last year.  It **melted** lead
    solder, as well as some plastic pipes (which shouldn't have been so
    close to the furnace anyway).  If I had had newpaper above the furnace,
    the house probably would have been destroyed.
    
    

re: .8

Of course, you should have firerock above the furnace, shielding both the 
insulation and wood of the floor above.

Tyvek or similar was suggested to us by the man who did our energy audit.
I don't know whether he had considered the flammability issue, though.
Does anyone know for sure whether these materials present a hazard, keeping
in mind that Tyvek and Typar could easily have different flammability 
properties?

   Gary

    
    
    We had to install the 7" round vents you mention.  One exits 12" from
    the floor, the other 12" from the ceiling.  Our furnace & HW heater in
    partitioned from the rest of the basement which is used for car
    storage.  The building inspector (bless his cold heart) is the one who
    required the vents since there is limited combustion air in the "boiler
    room".  
    
    I think the vents are a good idea considering the cars stored in the
    next room do have gas in their fuel tanks and some day one of them
    might just develop a leak and one day the fumes will mix with the
    combustion air but only during the winter when the furnace is on and
    the house will explode.  Right.
    
    I have a question:  Does anyone know of a relay "system" I could
    use/build/install so that I can put dampers on the vents so they only
    open when the furnace fires?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Andy
     

    
    
    Your furnace should have a vent pipe with the valve your looking for
    
    steve

    
    I'll swear I saw this in Popular Science a few yesrs ago, as an idea
    for cheaply finishing a basement ceiling. Staple Tyvek to the joists,
    then cover with an open-spaced lattice of wood strips. The Tyvek was
    dark, the wood was light, and the effect was great.
    
    	|/     \|/     \|/     \|/
        X       X       X       X
    	|\     /|\     /|\     /|\
        | \   / | \   / | \   / | \<-- wood latice (at right angles,
    	|  \ /  |  \ /  |  \ /  |        terminal rendition notwithstanding)
    	|   X   |   X   |   X   |<-- joist
    	|  / \  |  / \  |  / \  |
    	| /   \ | /   \ | /   \ | /
    	|/     \|/     \|/     \|/
    	X       X       X       X
    	|\     /|\     /|\     /|\
        | \   / | \   / | \   / | \
    		   

    One thing that I notice that wasn't answered in this discussion was
    why the vents should not be a part of a positive pressure system with
    mechanical assistance (fans).
    
    A natural draft gas burner only has a very coarse mechanism for
    metering the air required for combustion.  (A hole in the gas feed
    pipe to the burner basically!).  If you put this kind of burner into
    a positive pressure situation, excess air could be mixed with the
    gas for combustion resulting in incorrect temperature flame and the
    risk of flame-out.  Similarly, such a burner in a negative pressure
    situation can be a great hazard, generating incomplete combustion
    products like CO (carbon monoxide), which may not be vented to the
    outside.  High negative pressure situations can often occur when
    you light a fire in a fireplace.
    
    Forced draft burners (like most oil burners) mechanically meter the
    air required for combustion thus reducing the effect of air pressure
    differences on the fuel/air mixture.
    
    This should explain the reason for a) no fans and b) inlet and safety
    outlet exhausts.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    Use the 6" and put the kraft side up towards the 1st floor, 
    also use the insulation hanger rods, these are made of wire
    about the same dia. as a clothes hanger and are a little longer
    that the 14.5" between the joists, so when you push them up against
    the insulation they dig into the joist to hold the insulation up.
    
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    I doubt that you *need* 6"; a 20-degree temperature differential
    just isn't that much.  The 6" may give you better soundproofing
    though.
    
    According to the rules (vapor barrier toward heated space), the
    vapor barrier should be on top.  Will it really matter in this
    situation?  Well...
    who knows.  I'd be inclined to guess no, but you could end up
    with soggy insulation.  Since you're talking only 20 degrees here,
    vs. maybe 90 between a -20 day outside and +70 heat inside, you
    aren't going to get extreme cases.  But anything is possible.
    

    24x42 is 1008 sq ft.  I did my house which is ~1200 sq ft and it took 22
    rolls of 6 inch insulation.  22 rolls at $11 a roll is $242.  3 1/2"
    insulation is about $7 a roll.  22 rolls at $7 is $154.  The difference
    is $88.  How soon to you want a payback in dollars for the insulation?
    
    Are you measuring payback only in dollars saved on heating bills or are
    you also adding in the intangible that you will have less drafts and
    the house will be more confortable to live in?
    
    I agree that 3 1/2 will more than likely solve the basic problem of the
    basement acting as a heat sink.  3 1/2 is usually rated between R-11
    and R-13.  6 inch is rated at R-19.  The extra 2 1/3 inches is not as
    effective as the first 3 1/2.  6 inch does give better protection.
    
    They sell unfaced insulation and then you can stop worring about which
    way to put the vapor barrier :^)  It depends on the average humidity
    level of your basement and the average humidity level of the house and
    the difference between the two.  The greater the difference, the more
    important the decision about vapor barrier placement.

    RE:14,
    
    
    Steve pretty much covered it.....
    
    
    
    I wouldn't worry too much about the 'glass fibers falling on your
    head, a few days after you install it should be all it takes
    for any loose fibers to settle to the floor. I do alot of finish
    Poly & paint work on wood and the finish has yet to be affected
    by the insulation.
    
    
    
    Royce

    Our house has 3 1/2 inches of Fiberglas with the craft side facing
    down installed in the basement using the wire as talked about earlier.
    Our basement is not heated at all. (ie. the living area above the
    basement has electric heat)  In the winter the basement can get 
    pretty cold (say around 40 degrees)  The 3 1/2 inches seems very
    adequate -- floors feel warm and since heat rises I wouldn't worry
    about any significant heat lose.  I also don't see any problems 
    with condensation.  If you wanted to use something like a well
    sealed plastic vapor barrier you might get more concerned.  The
    craft paper vapor barrier doesn't form a very tight barrier and
    the temperature difference doesn't seem to cause any condensation.

    I would go ahead with your plans for 3 1/2 inch with the craft side
    facing down.  That's the way the builders did it in the last
    three places I lived in without any problems.  (doesn't make it right
    but does indicate it's not way out of line and I've never seen or
    heard of anyone having a problem with it)

    Anything over 3 1/2 inches for the floor of a room would be overkill
    and a waste of money in my opinion.  And the craft side down looks
    better, and whether or not the Fiberglas will start shedding on your
    head my active imagination would - I get itchy just thinking of looking
    up at a ceiling with exposed fibers.

    -JFK-

You can safely put the kraft paper down if you slash slits in it to break
the vapor barrier.  You might not even have to do that -- I would
suppose that most floors make a pretty vapor barrier.  Note that vapor
barriers are relative -- you can have a vapor barrier on the cold side of
the insulation so long as it is a worse vapor barrier than the one on the
warm side.  But I'd suggest putting in the slits just to be sure.

And besides all that... in this case if there's condensation it will
drip down onto the kraft paper, and you'll find out about it!  The time
when condensation is really bad is when it is within a wall and you don't
discover it for years.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    I would like to revisit the covering of external foundation insulation.
    The stuff my lumberyard is selling is called EZ(Easy?) Texture. This 
    stuff is premixed, but I have heard that it chips and falls off in 
    a couple of years. Another suggestion was to use mortar with a liquid
    latex, but I haven't any results on this method. What have you folks
    used and how were the results?
    
    Harry
    
    

    I am planning on insulating my basement. I will be using unfaced and a
    vapor barrier. I was not planning to insulate the ceiling. My question
    is, when installing the vapor barrier, how do you deal with the area
    where the studded walls meet the ceiling joist? Also, should the barrier
    overlap the floor a little?
    
    Bob Brister
    
    
     

I thought the ``face'' was for reflecting thermal energy back into 
the room?  

    I just noticed that I did a "wirte" instead of a "reply". I had wanted
    to add my question to an existing note. Sorry! Anyway, what I mean by 
    unfaced is that the fiberglass insulation I have does not have a vapor
    barrier as an integral part of the insulation. When referring to faced
    and unfaced insulation it is, I have been lead to believe, referring
    to "vapor" barrier(stopping moisture from damaging the insulation and
    walls) not a thermal reflecting surface.
    
    Bob
    
    

    
      Right Bob. The vapor barrier keeps water vapor from condensing inside
    the insulation and saturating it and the wall (Or ceiling) with water.
    
          Lets see, to insulate the joist areas, you have to do them
    with seperate pieces fitted into each space. Insulation with a vapor
    barrier is easier to use in those spots. Do you have a specific reason
    for using unfaced? 
    
    				Kenny

    To tell you the truth I have no specific reason for going with unfaced
    and a separate vapor barrier. I guess I have seen it a few times on TV
    and it seemed the appropriate thing to do. I currently have all the
    materials and am just waiting for a weekend when there is nothing else
    going on.
    
    
    Bob
    
    

    I've been thinking of using up some old insulation by putting up studs
    in the basement and stuffing the insulation in there (that way I don't
    have to pay the hauler to take it away :-).  I was assuming that I would
    leave the sill plates accessible (if I ever finish the cieling I will
    do a hanging one, so that pushing up the tile gives access to the sill
    plate).

    What is standard practice in this area?  My reasoning is that people will
    want to bang on the sill plates when I sell the house, to be sure the
    termites haven't come back...

    Are there tricks for leaving sill plates accessible when both the walls
    and cieling are sheet rock?

    Just for humour's sake, the old insulation is the stuff that the previous
    owner placed over the soffits.  It's stacked in the middle of the attic
    and in the corner of the basement for now, while I figure out how to get
    to the bottom of my punch list (first, stop the porch from falling off
    the house.  Next, replace the rotten roof, etc).  Gotta love this home
    ownership!  By the way, has anyone had any luck using a come-along to
    pull a porch back against it's sill plate?  I could hook one end to the
    basement window which is under the porch...

    > I could hook one end to the basement window which is under the porch...
    
    
    I'm not sure I'd hook the come-along to the basement *window*!! :*)
    
    Brian

    > I could hook one end to the basement window which is under the porch...
    
	   I would think you would want to lift the porch to pull it in
	place.  If that's the case, maybe you could bolt the come along
	to the wall of the house, above the porch floor.  A quick patch
	job to hide the hole (?).


					Tim

    	Maybe it's just me, but I assumed what he was going to do was wrap
    one end of the come-along around a 4x4 across the inside of the window
    opening.
    
    	Ray

>  ... but I assumed what he was going to do was wrap
>      one end of the come-along around a 4x4 across the
>      inside of the window opening.


Uh... Yeah! That's exactly what I was gonna do!  Glad I thought of it...

Regarding lifting, I already have a nice double 2x10 under there, near the
rotting posts.  Now that I've found at least one footing, I have more
confidence in those posts and I'll move the 2x10 down toward the house and
crank it up good and hard with my trusty six ton jack.  Then I'll try the
come-along (BTW, anybody got one I can borrow :-).  If nothing moves, I'll
take the end plate off and pull on one joist at a time.

All this to save a 10x12 room with peeling tiles and a leaky roof...

    
    
    	Well, this is a little off of the base note, but rather than start a	
    	a new one....
    
	As I have mentioned before in this file, the kitchen/dining area
    	of my new home is a Diner dropped there in the 40's.  It is on a 
    	concrete foundation with wood in between meeting the concrete and
        a crawl space.  
    	
    	The current shingles which I am removing (asbestos) go right into
    	the ground.  I plan on doing vinyl siding so, here is the dilema:
    
    	I want to dig around the paramater of the diner to expose the wood/
    	foundation meet.  Cover the wood ~ 1 foot up with some sort of mega
    	board which I can cover with cement/stones or whatever, and go with
    	the siding up.
    
    	Any creative ideas???
    
                                                            

    
    I have a couple questions about fiberglass insulation that is in my
    basement, burner room area.  
    
    I have a split entry with finished basement with separate heat zone.
    The oil burner and oil tank are located at the end of the basement off
    a hallway, in an unfinished room, accessed from the hallway, with luan
    door (door has a venitlation grate near bottom of door).
    
    This 'burner' room is very warm, so I usually keep the door 1/2 open.
    This room is also well insulated, the inside walls, the outside walls
    and the ceiling.  Now, here are my two questions.
    
    I would like to remove the insulation from this room on the inside
    walls and the ceiling.  I would perfer that some of the heat in this
    room dissipate through the ceiling (above in the dining room), and
    perhaps make the interior walls of the basement 'burner' room warmer
    to the living space on the other side.  Is this o.k.?  I do not want
    to remove any insulation that would be against code.  There is a
    firewall (?) piece just above the burner itself, and I am assuming that
    there is insulation behind that, which I would not be disturbing.  I
    would also like to close the door to the burner room, and hopefully
    this area will not be as hot as it is now.  That is why I keep the door
    1/2 open.
    
    My second question is, do you recommend covering the exposed insulation
    in this burner room (I don't think there is any facing - all I see is
    the pink fiberglass material facing out towards the room)?  I would
    like to put up wallboard, as I think that fiberglass particles may be
    floating around in the air.
    
    Eleanor