Conference 7.286::home_work

I used rock salt on cast concrete steps at my previous house. It totally
destroyed them in just a few years, and the destruction was continuing
long after I stopped using salt.

The concrete pad outside the back door of my present house (build 1976)
did well until a family member used rock salt two years ago. The concrete
now has nearly inch-deep pits and gouges, and it's obvious that the
erosion is continuing. It's probably irreversible.

I would not use salt on concrete under any circumstances. 

I don't know if there is a sealer.

Hope this helps,

Art

    There are several types of "safety salt" available that are friendly
    to grass as well as concrete. They cost a little more but then what's
    the price of a new driveway.
    
    Brian V
    
    

    
    I think it's worth using a concrete finish like Thompsons Water Seal
    to help prevent salt damage.  I use it in the Garage as you can't
    prevent road salt from the car getting on to the garage floor.
    
    I've also used the concrete crack sealer to fill a few minor cracks in
    the concrete ramp.  What seems to happen here is that the water runs
    down in the crack and causes frost heave to lift the cracked sections,
    gradually breaking up the concrete further.  The grey mastic sealer is
    intended to prevent water ingress, but still allow thermal expansion at
    the joints.                                 
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    
    Can you use the Thompsons Water Seal on tar driveways (which is what I
    have)?  I like the idea of sealing the garage since the salt will get
    in there.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dennis
    

    Re: .4
    
    No - and there's no benefit to sealing an asphalt driveway other
    than it makes it look good for a short time thereafter.
    
    
    					Steve

    Another approach is to eschew the use of salt altogether. We've got
    a 300' driveway that goes uphill and around a curve; we do have it
    plowed, but when it turns into a luge run (which it inevitably does)
    we use sand to make it navigable. Ash from the wood stove also comes
    in handy. 
    
    Salt's pretty nasty stuff; it'll mess up your shoes and your floors
    (when you track it in) as well as your driveway and your bushes.
    
    
    (It doesn't hurt that we both have 4wd.)

The problem with salt and concrete is one of "material fatigue". Once you
put salt on a concrete run in the winter time, some portion of it stays there
for a _long_ time. It's usually the late spring rains that might wash the
last of it away. In the mean time, for the rest of the winter, even if
there's no snow or ice on the walk, the remaining salt is affecting the
freeze/thaw cycles as the temperature fluctuates. It's this "invisible"
process that causes miniscule cracks to open in the remaining concrete,
allowing moisture (laden with salt) to enter, which then freezes/thaws
some more, causing more damage, etc. Salt and concrete aren't a good combo.

-Jack

    
    
    
    > No - and there's no benefit to sealing an asphalt driveway other
    > than it makes it look good for a short time thereafter.
    
    An ongoing matter of opinion, but I've seen a number of commercial
    places doing this recently.
    
    I can't believe that commercial institutions like airports and
    mall car parks (even Digital, until recently) would lay out huge
    amounts of cash to seal asphalt if there were not any long-term
    financial benefits. Who cares if a car park or runway looks pretty?
   
   
    Colin
    

>    Salt's pretty nasty stuff; it'll mess up your shoes and your floors
>    (when you track it in) as well as your driveway and your bushes.

What about calcium chloride, then?  Just as bad?

Dan

    
    re: .-1 and calcium chloride
    
    Isn't this stuff supposed to do the same thing as salt except be
    cheaper?
    
    Dennis
    

re .10:

It's more expensive by the pound than salt, but it's quite a bit more
effective (less needed and works at a colder temperature)  I do not know
if it harms cured concrete (other than some is actually added to cement when
poured for certain reasons)

Potassium chloride is also available that doesn't harm the grass like salt
(it's actually a fertilizer)  Again I do not know its effect on concrete
but I think it's less harmful than salt.

-Mike

    
    	I live in Gardner and have a small blacktop type patio. I would
    like to seal it before winter but don't want to tackle this job myself.
    Does anyone know someone  who would give me an estimate and possibly
    do the job?  I could buy the sealing stuff or it can be included in th
    cost.  I would also want references on the person.  Thanks in advance!
    					Sue

    Why do you want to seal it?  Is it in poor shape?
    
    			Steve

    You could probably get a driveway seal-coating company to do it, if you
    don't want to bother with it yourself - I don't know what they charge,
    though.  It really isn't such a bad job to do yourself.  You need a few
    minutes one week and an hour or less a week later.  The first week,
    fill the cracks with crack filler.  This stuff comes in enormous
    pour-spout bottles, so you can probably find a neighbor who has a 90%
    full bottle of it, rather than buying one (you'll never use up the whole
    thing).  This stuff is approximately the consistency of Elmer's glue,
    and you simply pour it into any cracks (remove debris, weeds, and loose
    blacktop first).  It needs to dry before you can put on the sealing
    compound.  The sealant comes in in a big bucket.  You need a solid
    board, like a scrap piece of strapping, to stir it with, and the tool
    to apply it, which looks like a big squeegee with bristles.  Putting it
    down is real simple, once you have stirred it up (that may take a while
    - it tends to settle out, and is very gloppy/gooey).  You just pour
    some on the surface and scrub it in with the squeegee tool after
    wetting the surface with a hose.  Pick a day when it isn't going to
    rain for 24 hours.  After you get done, don't let anyone walk on it for
    a day or two.  The sealant smells pretty bad (it smells like tar, of
    course) so you want to pick a windy day and probably shut the windows
    on that side of the house until it is mostly dry.  The smell goes away
    after a few hours.  It really isn't a bad job at all - it may take you an
    hour, if you are real meticulous about mixing up the goop.  I did my
    whole driveway in an hour with someone else mixing up the goop.
    
    I'm not convinced that sealing blacktop helps all that much, either,
    but I figured I had better do mine this summer.  Very late last fall,
    the town repaved my street, which included cutting off the ends of
    everyone's driveways and replacing them when they repaved the
    sidewalks.  By the time they got done, it was winter (that happened fast
    last year!).  So my driveway had a crack across the entire wdith of it
    where the new blacktop butted up against the old.  Since I had the
    driveway rebuilt only a few years ago (and paid quite a bit for it,
    too), I figured I had better fill that crack and seal the whole thing
    so that no ice would form in the crack this year and break the surface
    up.  It does have the useful side effect of making the driveway very
    black.  Mine is very steep and faces west, so the darker it is the
    better in the winter, since if I clear most of the ice and snow off it,
    the rest will melt off if it is a dark color.  It is very hard to get
    into my house when it is icy otherwise, since the driveway goes up a
    steep slope from the street.
    
    /Charlotte
          

    
    	I wanted to seal it because I heard it will last longer and I 
    don't like stuff on it and it would be easier to sweep if it was
    smooth instead of bumpy(just tar).
    	The only reason I don't want to do it is the smell makes me
    sick, I know that sounds wimpy but I rather pay a small amount and
    stay away for a while than do it myself.
    	How do you pick a day that you know its not going to rain for
    24 hours, especially living in New England?ha ha
    		It does sound real easy to do, maybe I can persuade
    Dad(who retired just-in-time for all my projects!)
    					Thanks Sue

    with the darker black from the sealer it is going to be that much
    hotter to sit out on in the sun

    Well, you can use the crack filler yourself, anyhow - that doesn't
    smell bad.  I don't think it had much of a smell at all, actually.
    
    If you were doing a driveway, where there might be spills of engine oil
    and stuff, you'd have another step to do to wash off the oil spots with
    a special detergent so that the sealant will stick better - that's not
    a tough or smelly job either.  We used a push-broom to scrub off under
    where my old car used to sit - it dripped a variety of fluids its last
    few years.
    
    Try to talk your dad into putting the sealant on - it really isn't a
    very tough job.  If you can't cope with the tar smell, go away for the
    day.  Most of the smell is gone after a few hours, when the surface is
    just tacky.  Don't walk on it for at least a day; two is better.  You
    don't want to track it inside; it's a real pain to clean up.
    
    Long term weather forecasts are better than they used to be, thank
    goodness.  It used to be real tough to figure out when to do jobs that
    can't get wet for a while, but you have a pretty good chance of the
    forecast being right, these days.
    
    /Charlotte

    Something else to consider... If you have any slope at all on your 
    driveway, consider getting the sealer with sand already in it.. This 
    gives it a much grittier texture.  I've seen how slick they can 
    be in the winter (and even rain) without the extra texture. 
    
    $10 for 6 gallons at HD.
    
    _Gary

If you seal it, you'll have to do it again and again and again - every
couple of years or so - or it will look awful.  The "bumpy" surface, if
properly constructed, will need no regular maintenance (other than filling
cracks and removing oil spills) for many years.

There are new acrylic sealers on the market, but I have not read anything
about how well they work.

					Steve

Steve,

I'd be interested in you elaberating on your statement in .5.  

I have a alsphalt driveway about 1.5 years old.  Its top-coat is very rough and
I would like to smooth it out to make clearing it of debris (grass clippings,
pine needles, etc) a bit easier.  I've also heard that sealing protects the
asphalt from gas and oil spills.  And, according to what I found on the TOHJ
homepage, without sealing an asphalt driveway will become brittle and
deteriorate
(http://pathfinder.com/@@ZfX9ogcA*Aw82fGX/TOH/96_01/driveway/drive4.html).

Thanks,
Chris

Yes, sealing will provide some protection against oil and gas drips, if that's
a problem.  No, a properly constructed driveway will last 20 years or more
without sealing.  Sealing is 95% cosmetic, but once you have sealed once,
you have to keep doing it over and over as the sealant breaks up after a year
or so.

If you want a very smooth surface, then sure, seal it.  I happen to like the
rough surface and don't find it a problem to clean.

					Steve

    
    We have a 9 year old driveway, never been sealed. The only "cracks"
    are at the junction of the driveway and the road. I suppose a sealed
    driveway looks better, but there are other places I'd rather spend 
    the time and money on. I don't sweep my driveway enough to notice
    the bumps - if I really want it clean, I'd hose it down. 
    
    At our previous house, we had the driveway sealed since the snow
    plow did a job on it, cracked it at several places. It is certainly
    easy to run a plow over a sealed driveway. 
    
    
    eva

    
    	Thanks for all your info, I ended up sealing my patio this weekend,
    my neighbor was doing his driveway and had an extra bucket so......
    
    	It really wasn't too hard and didn't smell as bad as I thought it
    would.		Now if the rain would hold off!      Sue