Conference 7.286::home_work

    I have three culverts running under my driveway.  Each is 12" in
    diameter, and about 30 feet long.  Two of these are pretty well
    blocked up with years of accumulated mud, stones, oil cans, etc.
    I don't think the previous owner of the house was too interested
    in keeping them clear.  (They aren't completely full all the way
    through, just somewhere near the middle).  Anyone have any ideas
    as to how or what I can use to get these open again?  Thanks.
    
    Mark LePage
    

    What I have used in the past is a garden hose turned on full blast
    and shoving it in the culvert.  Moving it back and forth it takes
    a while and makes a great puddle but it always has worked.
    
    -Jay
    

    Get out as much as you can with a hoe before you use a hose.

Whoa... Jes kidding about the sparklers. . .

If the culvert is really long (or just longer than the average rake or hoe
handle) cut a half moon (slightly smaller than the diameter of the culvert)
out of 3/4" plywood and screw (not nail or eventually you leave the plywood
in the culvert) it to a suitably long 2X4.  Since the quality of the wood
doesn't matter you can put this together pretty cheap if you don't have the
scrap wood laying around already. 

My daddy did this with a 20' culvert under our driveway where I grew up.  
Don't try and use it to rake the culvert clean.  Just break up the dirt,
twigs, matted leaves (should I continue?  dead animals, coke bottles, Big
Mac cartons, crumpled lamp shades -- Honest, we dug some weird stuff out of
that culvert from time to time) and then wash it out with the hose.  

-B

    Like the idea that .3 had of using a piece of plywood, but my consider
    using some of those flexible chimney brush rods if you have them
    instead of a long 2X4.
    
    -willie
    

    Those sound like a couple of good ideas.  I had cleaned them out
    as best as possible with a hoe and rake, and used a hose to determine
    the flow, or lack of, through the culverts.  .3 hits my situation
    right on the money, as I've found all kinds of junk in that area
    - old car batteries, etc!  While I don't have a chimney brush or
    rods, I can certainly rig up the plywoood/2X4 rig.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.
    
    Mark
    

    My problem deals with ground water.  I have a yard that is approx-
    imately 1/2 acre. Half of the yard has been filled and the back
    half has not. This is where the leach field is located. 
    
    My question is: What do I do to get rid of this water buildup?
    I have been told a number of different things.
    
    - Add fill to raise the lower part of the yard level with the already
      filled part. (Would this cause problems with the leach field?)
    
    - Backhoe out the ditch the goes around the above metioned portion
      of the yard to provide better drainage (I guess the ditch was
      dug for that purpose in the first place)
    
    Another thing, the water table in this area is fairly high. Can
    anything be done at a fairly reasoable price or am I just going
    to have to live with a wet yard??
    

    Welcome to the club!  I'm at the top of a hill; the previous owner
    had water problems to the extent of 6" of water, before a french
    drain was put in.  I've never had any - INSIDE the house.
    
    Outside, like you, is a different story; the back yard is (WAS)
    like a swamp when it rained or after winter thaws.  The plan of
    homes was built on clay, with just enough top soil (AJ was not an
    extravagant builder) brought in to plant the lawn and trees.  So,
    I have a hight water table (like 6" below the surface).
    
    What I did was pretty straightforward - but a lot of back work.
    First thing to do is to define where the water is now running off
    to, and where you want it to run off to.  Remember gravity by the
    way.
    
    Then dig a ditch about 10-12" wide and about 18-24" deep, along
    the point that is most common to where the water NOW heads to,
    positioned BEFORE it get to where you DON'T want the water to go.
    Best spot in my case was about 10' from the house, where it had
    a sort of natural valley.  Dig the ditch all along (don't leave
    any portion out) the affected area, towards where you WANT the water
    to go.  Remember gravity.
    
    The fill the ditch with 12" of 3/4" crushed rock (costs about $70
    for 8 yards, at least in shrewsbury; 8 yards was the minimum). Then
    lay perferated S&D 4" PVC; you can get rigid pieces, and connect
    them, or use flexible.  I used the former, would use the latter
    if I did it all over.  Be sure to lay the pipe with the holes DOWN,
    not up, or this will all be wasted.  Then cover the pipe with more
    of the crushed rock (about 4" of rock is sufficient), and then the
    dirt.  Hopefully you saved the sod, so lay it back.  Voila!  When
    it rains, it drains (sorry, couldn't resist it).
    
    The theory here in brief is that water finds it's own level, and
    the gravity takes care of the rest.  The gravel at the bottom of
    the trench colects the water, and carries it along the ditch to
    a great extent.  What water that does build up in the trench (such
    as in my case where the trench is clay - very non-porous) makes
    it up to the perferated pipe, which the carries it away for sure.
    Since water seeks it's own level, you put the holes downward, so
    that the water fills into it.  You may think that holes up would
    work better, and that does sound like it would make sense, but no
    one told the water about that scheme, so it won't.
    
    By the way, you will need a deeper trench if you have a need for
    more that about 6" of dirt+sod above the pipe, but that is rare
    since it is a narrow strip, and the sod grows back pretty well.
    Don't worry about making the bottom of the ditch nice and square;
    just so that  you can get a lot of gravel in there.
    
    Finally, since we are relying on gravity to do the work for us,
    remember that the minimum pitch for the pipe AT ALL POINTS (connections
    and elbows always are the offenders) is 1/4" drop per foot of run.
    
    It's a lot of work, as a backhoe would destroy the yard (but make
    one hell of a trench!), and a shovel seems so ineffective. Do what
    I should have done - get a case of beer, call afer friends over
    to 'lend a hand for a couple of minutes with some yard work,' and
    ...
    
    -reed
    

I own a two family house which has 2 driveways on each side of the house. 
Under each driveway about 10 feet from the road are 12' diamater galvanized
pipes used for drainage. Between the pipes is a 60 foot drainage ditch. 

Picture:


                _________________________
                |                       |
		|			|
		|	House		|
		|			|
		-------------------------
	|	|			|	|
	|  D	|			|   D	|
	|  r	|			|   r	|
	|  i	|			|   i	|
	|  v	|			|   v	|
	|  e	|			|   e	|
	|  w	|			|   w	|
	|  a	|			|   a	|
	|  y	| ____________________	|   y	|
	|	|	Ditch		|	|
	|	| ____________________	|	|
	

What I want to do is connect up the 2 drain pipes and fill in the ditch.
Does anyone know where I can get the matching galvanized pipes in Southern
NH (Preferably Manchester)?? Anyone have any other suggestions on how I might 
do this????

Mike

    	Try Corriveau-Routhier. The are located on Clay street
    	The number is 627-3805. in Manchester

    I would try the town DPW and ask them. I've heard of cases were
    they will give you the pipe if they have it around. It may be used
    though.

    When you find out where to get it, lease let us (me) know where
    and how much $.  I need to do some similar work.  BTW it also comes
    in aluminum, as well as the galvanized.
    
    Thanks
    
    /bruce

    
    Thanx for the replies:
    
    I called Corriveau-Routhier and they have the stuff I need.
    
    Galvanized $5.20 a linear foot.
    Aluminum  $10.50 a linier foot.
    
    Both come in 20' sections only.

    I need some advice on sealing off an old french drain in my basement.
    It had been sealed by the previous owner, and after several years
    the seal deteriorated.
    
    The floors are concrete.  My washer drains in a tub in the basement,
    and this is the only time that I have problems.  
    
    I cleaned out the old seal to the point where I was down about 1/2"
    from the floor surface.  I mixed Water-plug, which is supposed to
    be the best for this application, packed it in tight and feathered
    it nicely about 3" all around the drain hole.  It lasted about 10
    washer loads.  I now have a semi-circle of moisture building up
    directly over the drain.  I assume the plug is breaing down, and
    shortly will begin to leak again.
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks

    I don't quite understand the situation.  A French drain is used
    to collect the water under a basement floor and direct it to a sump
    which is then pumped overboard (somewhere else other than the sump).
    Are you saying that your washer dumps its water into the sump? 
    If I had a French drain, I would want it to work all the time so
    that my basement would hopefully stay dry in wet weather.  The
    installations that I have seen have the drain pipe actually leading
    into the side of the sump.  There is no place for the drain to
    penetrate the floor.
    
    Could we have a little more background on the situation?

    I guess it's not a french drain then...Sorry.
    
    It is a hole on the floor that was sealed.  All I know is when the
    seal started to deteriorate, when my washer dumped its water into
    to basement tub, a little water would seep out of this hole. I never
    had water in my basement other than this.
    
    Bruce
    

    My house is in the way of a long gentle slope, and the area has
    a high watertable anyway.  In the spring, the backyard is quite
    mushy.  Does anyone have any advice about draining the land?  
    
    Uphill of the house is woods, woods and more woods; then there is
    a large garden area.  This also gets quite wet.  Should I dig some
    drains?  Where should I put them?  What tools would you recommend
    for doing the digging?  What angle should they be at?  How many?
    How deep?  
    
    Someone also suggested planting a weeping willow.  He had heard
    that they absorb so much water that they can help dry out a yard.
    Anybody else heard this?  Any other types of vegetation that help
    dry out a yard?
    
    Thanks!
    
    

    My parents had a persistent water problem that was solved by planting
    a weeping willow so I know they will work in some cases (the gypsy
    moths got it).
    
    I've also know people that have had Willows planted in too dry an
    area lose sewer and water lines to the thirsty critters.
    
    Alan

    If you should go the route of draining the land via drainage tiles
    where are you going to drain the water to? Makes a difference....
    
    -j
    

My neighbor the landscaper helped me dry my yard my cutting down/thinning a
lot of my trees.  If the sun can't shine, the water can't evaporate as quickly.
Obviously this won't necessarily solve ALL problems, but you'd be amazed...

-mark

    
    re .0	If you own the woods on the hill (or if you have access
    to them and they are 'abandoned') you may be able to divert some
    run off water by felling trees and leaving them as dams, sorta like
    this:-
    			  /
    			 /\
    			/  \
    	Up hill ^      /    \	< felled trees; this is too steep, but
    		      /      \		shows what I mean.
		     /  Yard  \
			House

    Spread the inverted V out according to the slope of the land above
    the yard/house.
    
    	Re cutting down trees, it depends.  They contribute shade and
    they drink a lot of water.  Its a judgement call on what they
    contribute aesthetically, willows drink a lot and grow very fast,
    but they tend to find septic systems and the corners of the foundation
    where downspouts drain to.

    	Disclaimer:	Muckin' with wet lands and interfering with
    the free flow of water can get you into all kinds of trouble.  Don't
    blame me, I'm telling you to NOT do it, OK ?
    

    What prevents the water from draining? Do you have ledge or
    a clay basin.
    
    sometimes punching thru the Clay will permit drainage but it
    may be too far down to reach.
    
    Ledge is another story. That requires blasting. Where does the
    back of your property go? Can you make a stream to drain it?
    
    Willows - They're a dirty tree....brings in all kinds of bugs
    and their root system could spell trouble.
    
    If it were a real PERMANENT problem I'd get a backhoe in for a
    few hours digging
    
    I would analyze your problem as LEDGE.

    Not from experience, but from a book:

    A drainage trench drains the land BELOW it.

    I guess the guy's point was the the trench SHOULD catch all the surface
water above it, thereby keeping the land below it drier.

    re: 2
   
    I would drain it around the house so it could continue downhill.
    There is a culvert under the road on one side of the house.
    
    re: Ledge or clay -- I have no idea.  I am just told that the area
    has a high water table.  Also when we lift the cover of the old
    well, we can see the water - about 4 feet down!  Does that help
    at all?  
    

    My yard, too, is very muddy in the Spring.  The thaw brings with
    it a small trickle that runs through my yard down a slope, and 
    sort of accumulates in the back corner where there are railroad 
    tie retaining walls, eventually drying up.  If we were to dig a 
    trench and add stone, what about the neighbors?  We live in the 
    city and abut neighbors on both sides & the back.  Is this going 
    to cause our yard to drain into theirs?  Also, will the retaining 
    walls interfere with the drainage (our land is on top of the wall, 
    which is about 3 ties high).
    
    Thanx.                                                            

    I am not sure if this note should have gone under another heading or
    not.  I've gone through this file and didn't know where to put it.  
    
    Anyway, my husband and I passed papers on a house last week.  We're
    first time home buyers (yippee).  Our inspector told us that we should
    put in aprons as the basement gets wet.  He told us how to do this, but
    we didn't get it all down (we took notes too).  I've never heard of
    aprons before and I'm not sure who to contact, or where to go, or even
    how to do it ourselves.  I thought maybe we should go back to the
    inspector to ask him how to do it, but we're really not "handy fellows"
    when it comes to digging in the ground kind of stuff.  
    
    Would anyone know exactly what an "apron" is, and what kind of a
    company/person would put them in?  Our inspector told us not to go with
    gutters as our property has lots of oak and pine trees which would clog
    them up all the time.  He said it wouldn't be worth it to go that
    route.
    
    Thanks everyone!  I'd appreciate your advice very much.  We're located
    in central MA

    Hi,
    	We, too, just bought our first house - isn't it great to be a
    homeOWNER?  I believe that you'd want to contact a cement contractor
    about the aprons.  I think that they're concrete slabs that are poured
    around the peremiter of the foundation in order to provide water
    runoff. Parenthetically, we have a lot of maple trees on our
    property, but our inspector recommended that we definitely NOT consider
    removing the gutters, but rather, simply be conscientious about keeping
    them clear.  Our basement is finished, and has remained totally dry
    throughout the recent monsoons.  It was also recommended that we
    carefully watch the grade of the land next to the foundation, 
    regrading any areas that might occasionally get washed away. You might 
    want to consult with some additional experts as to which would be the 
    better way to go.  Good luck and congratulations!
    
    							joe
    

    One suggestion with the "EXPERT"... Make every attempt to get someone
    who would remain impartial(sp?) to your needs. Do not get an expert
    who owns his own business, etc. Try to get an inspector type who
    works for the city/town or what ever.
    
    I had to have yard work done after a car crashed into my front lawn.
    I went to my neighbor (he's a landscape contractor) for an estimate
    for the repair. He estimated a $2,500.00ish repair. I went to an
    impartial expert/inspector and he quoted (approx.) $1,000.00 for
    the same repairs. What I finally ended up doing is.. going to the
    store, paying about $230.00ish for the seed, loam, mail box, etc.
    and doing the job myself. Boy the insurance company was B.S. at
    me for that one. They wanted to "sock it to 'em".. the guy who did
    the damage. I could've been $4,500.00ish richer, but honesty feels
    GREAT. Especially if it screws the insurance company(s).
    
    My point in all this is, get expert advise, BUT be real sure who
    you are getting it from. If you unable to do the work yourself (for
    what ever reason), at least check out the "DIY" costs as a guide.
    
    I hope all this babbling helps a little..!
    
    Bob G.
    

I'll second what .1 said - gutters will help, but you have to help them stay
clear of leaves AND ice.  A full-and-frozen gutter only forces ice/water back
up under your shingles and into your roof, attic, etc.

You should at least consider doing it right.  I know, first house, budget's
tight, etc. etc.  But think about it anyway.

The best basement wall is waterproofed (on the outside) and contacts only
sand or some soil that drains very well.  (The sand allows water to seep DOWN.
A clayey or poor-draining soil can "squeeze" water through concrete.)  And at
the bottom of the wall are drain tiles or pipes that carries any water-getting-
down-that-far away from the house.  I'm not too sure how much of all this is a
real do-it-yourself job.

And, as also in .1, the landscaping right against the wall should slope away
from the wall.  A concrete apron (ugly as far as I'm concerned) should drain
roof-water away from the house.  But, how far is far enough?  I dunno.

    
    I'll 'third' all the others...get another opinion...consider
    the gutters, after all , you can screen them to help cut down
    on leaf deposits.   You might consider calling a home inspection
    service (probly a competitor to the one this fellow worked for)...
    or a landscaper, (but many of them don't know much about
    what's causing the wet basement)...
    
    sorry can't be of more help...but do ask around for other
    opinions before you spend the $$$ on something you may not need.
    
    deb
    

    For what it's worth, the fellow who inspected our place was a house
    inspector . . . period.  He also appeared as if he might have been
    doing log cabin inspections for the pilgrams - quite old & REALLY
    seemed to know his way around a house.  What really impressed me was
    that he took us with him every inch of the way, and really explained
    what to look for, how stuff should be fixed, how to prevent potential
    problems, etc.  He spent a good 4-5 hours for somewhere around $200.00. 
    When he was done I had a 20-or-so page report detailing everything -
    down to which outlets had polarity reversed, door bell not working,
    etc.  If anyone's interested, I'll post his name tomorrow.  
                                                      

    OK. here's some quick things you might want to do and it wont
    cost very much.
    
    1. You might want to put screens on your gutters seeing you have a 
       lot of build up potential.
    
    2. extend your downspouts so the water runs away from the house.
    
    3. Check to see if your grade is slopped away from the house.
       
       

    
    
    .5
    
    Do you mind posting the inspector's name.  If I buy, it'll be Milford,
    MA.  This guy sounds like someone I'd like to inspect my house,
    considering I've got alot to learn!!!
    
    This may be the wrong place to bring this up (I've already made
    that mistake once this week!!), but on a 48 X 26 foot, what can
    expect to pay for gutters.  Any estimate, no matter how rough,
    is find.  I'm going to ask the builder to do it, (since there's
    no way he's gonna gaurantee me water will stay out of the basement).
    So I want to know how much it'll cost him, when he says to me, 
    "you're crazy, that'll cost $2000-$3000"
    
    john
    

    I'm in Nashua and had full gutters put up in February. My house is 40'
    long with a 24' long attached garage, so given the roofline, I have about 
    roughly 120 linear feet of gutter run. That plus the downspouts ran me
    under $600 installed for seamless aluminum in brown. So the builder's
    figures sound WAY out of line.
    
    Eric

    Please relocate if there is an existing note.
    
    Since we moved into our house 2 years ago, I have notice much water
    coming from the front lawn during the wet season. It is coming from 
    two sources. 
    
    1. One place is in front of ther house where the water main is. There is 
    a large rust spot on the sidewalk where the water exits and goes into
    a sewer. During the summer months it does dry up though. We had the water
    department check it out prior to purchase and they assured us the water
    main is fine. I also don't think it's the water main because...
    
    2. The second place is the lawn next to the driveway, which this morning
    there was a small stream exiting the lawn, running down the driveway and
    into the street destined for the sewer. I took a trip over to the
    neighbors yard, and his back yard is a small pond. That's fine, with
    all the rain last night it's to be expected...but I think the problem
    is deeper than this.
    
    When we bought, I notice the garage foor had settled in a few places,
    and appeared to be hollow underneath. My first thought was natural
    settling that took place over the past 15 years it been installed.
    No biggy, I'll just poor a new floor...but now my belief is it's 
    getting washed out underneath from a diverted water flow.
    
    There's more!
    The sewer out front has an area that's all washed out and you can see
    right under the pavement. Makes me wonder how much further this has
    taken place, and if it's all coming from my yard, or somewhere else.
    I would also like to add the the upstream neighbors leach field has
    been trashed from the smell of it, and is in the path of this problem.
    
    I would also like to add that, there was an underground stream of some
    sort many years ago, and the city placed a pipe underground for this
    flow. During heavy rains though, it surfaces and runs right thru
    everyones property. I have trenched this area to provide maximum flow.
    My neighbor down stream, many  years ago, placed his own pipe to
    eliminate his yard from getting flooded.
    
    My BIGGEST concern is, this water is now taking a new route, right
    under my yard, which has detroyed the garage, and the driveway which
    heived more this year than any prior year. The way it looks now, and
    getting worse by the years, is I will need to lift the garage, replace
    some destroyed sinder blocks, break up the concrete floor and replace.
    Also jackhamer some of the drive way up and replace the hollowed out
    areas. This is going to be big $$$, and lots of swet, but may not be my
    problem to begin with?
    
    As I also understand, but I'll need more detail, is there were new
    house build many years ago, which caused some water problems for all
    the houses in the neighborhood, including mine. Now sure what became of
    this issue though.
      
    What I need is someone to contact to look at the problem. It may not
    be mine at all, but could be caused by further development of land
    further down in the stream path which is causing some serious property
    damage on my land.
    
    Any recommendations as to what to do about finding what the hell is
    going on here?
    
    Much appreciated...Dave'
    
    

    Sounds to me mike the services of a good Civil Engineer might come in
    handy about now. I will cost some money but you might be able to get a
    topographic survey and better determine what is going on.
    
    	It is a little difficult to understand your situation without
    seeing a map. Maybe it would be possible dig a trench and fill it with
    gravel and perf pipes to divert the flow around your property. Maybe
    you and your neighbors could get together on this to save some $$$ by
    fixing the problem close to the source.
    
    	Could your problem be entirely natural, (ie: underground spring),
    or could it be that your neighbors leaching field has failed and that
    is the source of your water?
    
    						Mark

    
    Let me see if I can map it clearer;
 
    Property is in Marlboro.
    
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Melody Lane ->
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  house lots    |         |         |        |        |       |      |      |
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  up hill 
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  underground pipe<==============<=waterflow<======<================<========
                |         |         |        |         |         |  lot 4 | 
  house lots    |         |   B     |my house|     A   |         |   sale | 
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Raymond Road ->                      X sewer  
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  A<------------ level ---------> B <------<------<-- down hill ---<---<---< C

From point C to B is down hill. From point B to A is level.
From Melody Lane to Raymond Road is down hill.
Neighbor A has yard pond.
Neighbor B added pipe.

The lot for sale on Raymond Road is a pond also for most of the year, and 
the reason it's not sold yet.

Seems to me that the pipe underground is no longer the primary path
for this water. It's now my yard. My belief is if the town put the pipe in
and it no longer functions properly, they own it, they fix it! Is this 
correct thinking? Also if destination for this water has been dammed by 
current construction, conservation and DEQE may not be aware of the current 
situation, but need to be!

All I know is, my garage and driveway have been trashed, the street in time
will be hazardous do to washout and I end up eating most of the cost.


Dave'

    OK my uneducated guess (I am not a Civil Engineer) is that something
    happened to the culvert that is supposed to be diverting the
    underground stream past your property. Perhaps while some of those new
    houses were being built they did some blasting to remove ledge, or
    perhaps the heavy equipment caused a collapse of the culvert upstream
    from you. Also just age could cause a collapse. If the far upstream end
    of the culvert is exposed it might have become blocked. Who knows.
    (Roto Router?)
    	Judging from your description and diagram I would start be working
    my way "upstream" to see where the water problem first begins. This may
    give you an idea of where the problem started. Was there any
    construction there? Making a rough map and marking off the obvious
    signs of damage along with the contour may point out the source of the
    problem.
    
    	Your next step is to try to convince the town that it is their
    problem. Calling the Board of Health may be in order since your
    neighbors leach field is being disrupted. Of course this could be a
    double edged sword as your property may be deemed unsafe for occupancy
    is it waste water is joining the water flow through the area. Does your
    town have a Civil Engineer. Try the building inspector, etc...
    
    	Another solution would be for you to look after yourself and get
    some of your own pipe laid around your property to divert the water
    past your property. This may be expensive and will only solve your
    problem, not your neighbor's problem.
    
    
    	The question is which course of action is best. Judging by the
    other symptoms you described, sooner or later the town will have to
    acknowledge that they have a problem. If you wait for that to happen on
    its own, you may find that your property damages will be much worse for
    thaving waited. If your garage foundation is showing signs of erosion,
    what is happening to your *house* foundations that you can't see yet?
    
    	No matter what it sounds like you should make something happen to
    correct this problem. I'd recommend spending an afternoon on the phone
    calling every town office holder that you can reach until you get some 
    action. See if you can locate some maps at the town hall that show the
    placement of the culvert etc...
    
    					good luck, and please keep us
    					informed,
    
    					Mark
    
    
    
    

    Well , so far here is what I found out. I did some snooping Saturday
    morning and found a total of 4 people having some sort of water
    problem, including me!
     
    Top of the hill next to the property for sale in the map in
    re:2, there was a house who had a large flexable pipe into the
    collection point for a large amount of water. It was pretty obvious
    he was passing his water problem onto the next person down hill,
    who's yard was flooded...and also sale by the way. 
    While I was checking this pipe out, another neighbor asked if I needed 
    help...bla, bla, I told her briefly what was up. 
    2 hours later I drove by to find the pipe removed and coiled up in the 
    woods. 
    
    I noticed, even a year ago, my neighbor up hill from me had two hoses
    strung across his yard. Every once in a while, I saw water coming from
    them, but I just thought it may have been from his pool having excess
    water. Well they were running Friday morning, and still Saturday
    morning. This got my really wondering what the hell was going on.
    Well last night I decided enough water, I will coil his hoses up for
    him. When I reeled in all the hose slack, come to my suprize, there
    were sump pumps on both ends of the hose. Mind you. all houses in this
    area are slabs. I dragged them on shore to burn overnigh. This morning 
    before heading out to work. There they were again, set up with water 
    comming out. He must have herd them whining... This is not good!
    
    The water that is coming thru my yard took the sniff test over the
    weekend, and is sewerage. My freshwater test kit confirmed hi levels
    of ammonia and nitrate which indicates to me we have waste water from
    his failing leach field. Also my driveway spring has algeas growing
    indicating to me that there is some level of nitrogen providing
    nurishment, again confirmed by my test kit.
    
    I now have photagraphs of everything, including the hoses flowing.
    Present course of actions.
    - Home insurance
    - Civil Lawyer
    - DPW.
    - City Civil Engineering.
    - Personnally hired; General Concrete Services.
                         Failure Analysis Assoc.
    
    Will keep all posted...Dave'
    
    
    

    Re .4
    
    Less expensive option: local Board of Health, if it's sewerage.
    
    PBM
    

    My concern is my garage and driveway damage caused by this excess water,
    not the sewerage. The neighbors concern should be the water damage
    to his leach field.
    I just want the water problem solved and damage repaired, although
    one will lead to another, as reply 3 mentioned.
    
    Dave'
    

    I'd be just a bit wary of calling the Board of Health, even though that
    is just what this situation calls for. I would be concerned that they
    would condem *my* property. Perhaps a discrete call to them to ask what
    they would do in this situation would be in order. Tell them what is
    happening and ask what they will do before you give your name and
    location.
    
    				GOOD LUCK!

    re:- My thoughts exactly...although I'm told by professional services
    that this may be my only recourse in getting the DPW motivated.
    
    I will try your tactic...Dave'_who needs more than luck right now!
    

Did you check out the culvert itself?  Try and find out the inlet and outlet
if you don't already know where they are, and go have a look.  You may find
a bunch of sand/dirt may have washed in plugging the inlet, and all that's
needed is for the town to dig it out.  If possible without tresspassing,
walk the length and look for evidence of collapse, or storm sewers that
discharge water instead of draining it (evidence of a plug downstream).
Check maps in the town hall showing the drain itself or the right-of-way for
it.

Having said all this, I don't know how it will help other than evidence to show
the town it's its problem.

-Mike

    RE:-
    I found the inlet and outlet to the culvert. The entrance at the top of
    the hill has surface water of couple k gallons flowing into a catch
    basin on the side of the street, crosses under the street to another, 
    and then heads out to the pipe. The outlet at the other end of the 
    street has much less water, like under 500 gallon per hour. 
    
    Where's the  water going?
     
    I do not believe there is any access to it in between, so my neighbor
    sais. It's all underground, from what I understand, the full length. I 
    will walk the length this P.M. and see if this is truely the case.
    
    Dave'
    

    Well, the sh*t is really hitting the fan now.
    Here's where I am as far as this issue.
    - DPW contacted and formal complaint logge, backed by certified letter.
    - Conservation has been down and together we walked the whole
      neighborhood. With a mix of sewerage, he was not a happy guy.
      He will also recieve a cert. letter.
    - Board of health has been notified, along with a cert. letter.
    - Marlboro Civil Engineer has been notified.
    - Many neighbors have been talked to and are also fed up with the fact
      there yards are extremely wet. Some have even had septic failures 
      themselves. No one wants to get involved though. I'll just have
      to change that.
    - My neighbor has been notified to discontinue pumping and file
      complaint. He is now pumping into the street.
    - A Marlboro counsoler has been notified as she has been dealing
      with this issue for a while. She was extrememly glad to hear from
      me and the news and photos I have to prove the seriousness of this.
    
      Evidently, she has tried to get this area rectified a while ago
      but it was felt by Marlboro officials that the priority level was low. 
      Now that we have numerous septic failures, and property damage, she 
      thinks this will be just the ammo she needs to get the ball rolling for
      improved drainage and town sewerage installed. By the way, our 
      neigborhood is one of the last in the Marlboro area to have private 
      septic.  
    
      So far, I'm hearing what I want to hear...but the damage I have
      sustained is an issue I will have to persue further.
    
      Till next time...Dave'
    
    

    re-.1
    Wait til you see the bill for town sewerage! A good friend of mine had
    to sell his home after the town gave his street a sewer line and passes
    the cost along to the residents his tax levy(maybe wrong name) was
    $28,000 for the first year!
    
    Hope this dosen't happen to you.
    
    -j

    re:- No one said I have to hook up if my system fuctions.
    Anyways...
    As expected the town is dragging there feet. It has been a few
    months gone by. Board of health has been out to the area to sample
    water with negative results as far as septic failures, but they can
    smell it, and flouride, so it's not a water main broken.
    DPW claims it's not their problem, although they maintain everything 
    else in the neighborhood. 
    Conservation doesn't seem to be to upset that this water containing septec 
    is destined for wetlands. 
    Our city counselor asked me to hand carry a notice to all neighbors asking
    about dates of septic pumping. I have neither the time not desire to do 
    such, besides that, I just want the water fixed which is my problem. 
    They all keep talking sewerage!!! 
    
    A few recent conversations with other neighbors indicate they have
    taken the same path as I have attempted with no results, and this was
    in numbers. Here we are, or I should say, I am, ten years down the road  
    with the same problem and basically lost the support of the
    neighborhood because they know it's a waste of time!
    
    I have had an estimate on repairing my garage, which to me is very low
    and I would like it completed by summer before the price skyrockets. 
    The only problem is he will not perform the work with guarantee's unless 
    the water in solved.
    He even took the initiative to talk to the DPW himself (must really need
    the work). DPW told him to not waste his time, it will not get solved 
    right away.
    
    I have just about reached my limits on this. With each time I talk or
    think about it, my temp rises another ten degrees.
    
    I'm at the point now where I will  contact all who are dragging there
    feet, and promise (not thretten) to take it to the STATE level...EPA
    and whoever else comes to mind...OR WHO EVER IS RECOMMENDED!  I believe
    any town or city would hate to have this situation elevated to the
    state level.
    
    Anyone care provide some addition guidance...I could really use
    the support right about now!
    
    Thanx, Dave'
               

Your neighbors may not be willing to do anything, but does that mean they
don't support you?  It may simply mean that they aren't willing to help
you.  The difference is that if you do all the legwork, they may well
be ready to sign petitions, make depositions or join class actions -- 
though probably not go to meetings.

I don't know anything about how to get your problem fixed, but I have
recently found myself in a similar sort of town politics situatuation.
In the end, I may find myself running for School Committee as the simplest
way to solve the problem I see in our school.  It's a pain, and I wish 
there were someone else (such as the current School Committee members)
who would solve the problem for me, but it comes down to deciding how
much effort I'm willing to expend to fix this and then doing it.  It
sounds like you are stuck in the same situation.  Trying to get the state
involved on your side sounds like a good strategy, but even there I
expect you'll have to do a lot of (courteous) pushing to get results.
I wish I had a better answer.

	Best of luck,
	Larry

PS -- I've heard that water (even from septic systems) that flows 
underground into a wetlands isn't a problem -- it's surface runoff
that is the problem.  So maybe it's reasonable that they are not concerned.
You could try calling a state agency to ask about that.

    For the little work it would require, I'd suggest sending a
    letter to your STATE (not federal) representative asking if
    they can provide any assistance in solving this problem.
    Include copies of letters you've sent, who you've spoken to,
    etc.
    
    I've gone this route a few times in the past (in other
    states) and it actually seems to help.
    
    Not sure how it works in NH with a part-time legislature.

    How about letters to the editors of various newspapers?
    
    
    				herb

    There may be more than what lies on the surface. 
    
    Yesterday I spend some time in the front lawn looking various areas
    over meanwhile the gas comp. is replacing the whole length of gas line 
    from one end of the street to the other. I notice they had the side
    walk alreay cut and waiting to dig right in front of the gas shut-off.
    which is on the boarder of my lawn and the sidewalk. By the way,
    this is the area in which water exits the lawn during heavy rains, and
    pretty continuos during the spring wet season A continuation of
    the original water problem.
    
    I just eyeballed the shut-off to the connection into my house and noticed 
    that the line created in right in a area of lawn that I have had problems 
    with for the past few years. It never really gets green. Even dead in some
    areas.
    
    Has anyone got expereince with gas leaks killing grass? Or can anyone 
    enlighten me as to whether gas will kill grass.
    
    I also get a good sniff of gas every once in a great while from the
    front closet which contains the gas meter.
    
    Really make me wonder and is getting me worried...that there is more
    than meets the eye with this water issue. I will be contacting the gas
    comp. about the smell in the closet, but would anyone say this needs to
    be taken a step further?
    
    Also, who owns the line from the street to the meter? I would say the
    gas comp. is responsible for the gas service up and to the meter, and
    no further, but I am hearing otherwize from people I talk to.
    If it matters, this is the City of Marlboro.
    
    Thanx much, Dave'
    
    
    

>>    I also get a good sniff of gas every once in a great while from the
>>    front closet which contains the gas meter.

Call the gas company.  They do not want customers blowing up.  Actually they
don't really care about you, they just don't want the publicity of 'house blows
up due to gas leak'.  They will come out and check all the fitting for you with
some soap-like materal that changes colors when gas passes through it.

Boston Gas has a special number you can call if you think there is a leak, if
you have Boston Gas, check your last bill.

bjm

    
    re: -2.  Yes, natural gas will kill your grass.  This is one indication 
    that gas companies use to identify potential gas leaks.  
    
    /Jeff

    If you call the gas company and tell them you think you smell
    gas they'll probably be at your door before you can hang up the
    phone.  They tend to be paranoid about this.

    not to diminsh the problem, but if you are smelling gas "once in a
    while" it doesn't sound like much of a leak. DO get it fixed though.
       

    Well before I had a chance to read the replies, I called the Gas Co.
    They were at the house in a half hour, and digging my front lawn up
    before I left. They read a very high level of gas in all the areas of
    dead grass, plus the meter was leaking. It is now going to be
    relocated outside. 
    Also, they had to pump water out of the hole to repair the connections. 
    I had asked the supervisor about the failure and his comment was it 
    could have very well been the water in the area freezing and stressing 
    the pipes. 
    I was out there with my camera snapping some just-in-case photos for 
    future use in my city dealings.
    
    I wonder if this should have it's on note for others who have problem
    lawn areas over gas pipes and wouldn't know it unless they smelled it?
    
    Thanx all, Dave'
    

    re.17
    Yes natural gas will kill grass/trees/shrubs near a leak the soil
    consistancy has a waxy appearance and water will bead up.
    
    -j

    Unfortunately, and against my better judgement, I may have no choice
    but to form a petition to have signed by the neighborhood. I have 
    one person on each street who is willing to get everyone on that street
    to sign, and mail it in the counselor.
    I have made a couple of attempts to write one, but they seem to get to
    cluttered with info. that may only pertain to myself, and not
    generically enough for the neighborhood itself.
    
    Also strong enough to get mister mayor to realize the lack of support
    the city has provided so far, and the health factors involved.
    
    Has anyone got a good, professional and threatening petition format
    they can share with me.
    
    You can dump it on me off-line if you prefer. 
    
    Thanx, Dave'
    

    I have a question about perimeter drains.  The walls of basement 
are covered with efflorescense (sp?).  Although I don't have a problem 
with water in the basement, I obviuosly have a moisture problem.  Some 
possible solutions I've discovered are:

    1. clean the walls and try sealing with "thera-seal", I forget the 
name, but it goes on like a stucco like plaster that supposed to keep moisture 
out.  I thought I've trying this is a relatively small area along the 
wall that's in the worst shape and waiting 1 year and then seeing how it works 
out before attempting the rest of the basement walls.  Actually I had 
someone from a company called Concrete Engineering in Stow, MA suggest 
this plan.  He also surmised that the builders hadn't tarred the 
foundation and that this was why the moisture seeped in.  I asked him 
for a ballpark figure for tarring and installing a perimeter drain and 
he said in the area of $5000.

    2. on the other hand, we're also about to do some major landscaping (tree 
removal, regrading, etc...) and one of the items discussed with the 
landscaper was installing dry wells.  I asked him how much a perimter 
drain would cost and he said roughly $1000.  He also agreed to tar the 
foundation for me but at additonal cost, parts and labor.


My question is why the descrepancy in prices?  Can the cost of tar and 
cost of tarring the foundation be that much?  Does anyone have any 
forst hand experience with this?  The foundation of my hous is 41 x 26.

Thank you very much.

/Phil

    
    
    I think the 5K price was the cost of digging out around the 
    foundation VS the 1K of paying someone to just tar it.   If
    you dont have major water problems, it might be worth it just to
    apply a sealerpaint to the inside and run a dehumidifier....
    
    JD

re: -1    
    
>    I think the 5K price was the cost of digging out around the 
>    foundation VS the 1K of paying someone to just tar it.   If

No, my landscaper said 1K for digging/installing the perimeter drain 
plus additional cost to tar (parts+labor).  It's the additional cost 
for tarring that is an unknown at this point.

The $5K ballpark estimate was from Concrete Engineering to do the 
digging, install drain and tar.


>    you dont have major water problems, it might be worth it just to
>    apply a sealerpaint to the inside and run a dehumidifier....

Yes, I've considered this, but we get lots of mositure in general in 
the house (between storms and inside windows & in the attic).  These 
last two will and have been addressed respectively.

/Phil

    This should cost less than $100 in materials. The tar is about $12 for
    5 gallon pail. I don't recall what the coverage is but it'll tell you on
    the label. I thing I used 30 gallons on a 40x40 foundation. You also need 
    a bush, it's about a 6" heavy brush made for applying this stuff. About 
    the only place it works well is the inside corners, where the foundation 
    wall meets the footing.I had good luck with a roller and a long handle, 
    just dip it into the bucket and apply. Buy two in case one fails, if
    not, return the extra one. 
    You have to work a bit to get good coverage with the roller on the first
    coat, thats why I did two coats. The second coat is much easier. Lay it 
    on real heavy where the wall and footing meet.
    
    A couple of hints, wear throw away "EVERYTHING" from head to toe. Cover
    as much skin as possible. Hat,gloves and goggles are mandatory. Have 
    some around kerosene for cleanup. And set the pails out in the sun for a 
    few hours to thin it out, for easier application. 

    I'd guest it'd take two people half aday to complete. In your case it'll 
    take longer, you'll need to wash down the wall before hand.    
    
    This is definitely a do-it-your job. It's no-brainer, all physical labor
    in tight quarters. In almost every case the home owner will do a better
    job than hired help.

    The perimeter drainage is tougher to do right, but still do-able  by the 
    homeowner.

    /Jim
        

    Thank you very very much, Jim.

    

Yet another question about water in the basement :-(

Our backyard landscaping stinks.  Basically, the backyard has a slope towards 
the house, hence during heavy rains and melting snow water backs up against the 
foundation...sometimes in some pretty large puddles.  

The water can come in through some cracks in the back wall (I've filled the
bigger ones with hydraulic cement but it then comes in at another place).
During the snow melt in Mass, the water seeped into the window wells and 
filled them up so that the water came in around the window casing!  And the 
water has also come in around the well-water inlet pipe...

Anyway, I think the solution is to keep the water away from the foundation:
To which we've come up with 2 solutions.  1) a Swale or 2) a foundation 
perimeter drain.  The swale is out since we don't have enough bare foundation 
showing to build up a slope against (and re-grading the entire backyard seems 
out of the question).

I've read all the notes I could find in here about foundation perimeter 
drains...  I've been to the library and read a couple landscaping books.  So
what's my question?  I have a couple.  (Note that we do have footings drains,
at least so says the blueprints...but they're eaither clogged or the water
is coming in before reaching it.)

It's not inexpensive, and I want to make sure it works.  The first landscaper 
quoted $2k.  The second landscaper, whom we've worked with before and takes 
pride in doing a good job, didn't agree that our solution would work.  (IMO,
it's the same old story with contractors, no 2 will ever give the same
solution and/or quote...)

1 - how wide should the trench be?  Wide enough to hold the pipe and surrounding
stone (~10-12") or wider (~36")?
 
2 - how close should the trench be to the foundation for best results?  Right up
against or a few feet away?

3 - can the trench be covered with topsoil and sod, or should the stone come
all the way to the surface (uncovered)?

I guess the answers are obvious, 
    1 - the wider the better to catch more runoff
    2 - right up against the foundation to not allow any water up against it
    3 - don't cover the trench/stones with with anything that can clog or freeze

But that would mean a 3 foot wide layer of stone showing all along the back 
foundation [some 80']...!  Yuck.

Has anyone put in a perimeter drain and had success with it?  How was it built
in respect to the above 3 questions?

Many thanks,
Dan

    
      No amount of pipes or stone will help your water situation unless
    they can channel the water *away* from your house. That's why
    foundation drains don't do much (I personally think they are useless)
    Because they don't LEAD the water anywhere. So ask yourself (Or the
    contractor who will happily charge you for this and say it will work)
    where will the water go *TO* once it has gotten into this gravel/pipe
    system? If it isn't to some large and far away place, you're wasting
    your money.
    
      As a side note, why not regrade the entire back yard? You can do a
    lot of surface grading for 2K. If you can get the slope away from the
    house, you're halfway there. Then you need to get the water flowing out
    of your yard completely.
    
    				Kenny

    
    I strongly agree with .-1
    
    My house has perimeter drains and they were overburdened this past
    spring by the big melt and we had BIG water problems. The main reason
    for my troubles was the grade bringing water to the house. We had a
    a grader out for three full days who changed the slope of backyard 
    and the side yard, plus a lot of optional work. Cost was about $1500.
    
    My guess is, after you spend that $2000 on perimeter drains you'll 
    be spending another wad on grading.
    
    								- Mac

>      No amount of pipes or stone will help your water situation unless
>    they can channel the water *away* from your house.

The plan was to have the [perforated] pipe lead to a drywell along the side 
of the property.

>								That's why
>    foundation drains don't do much (I personally think they are useless)
>    Because they don't LEAD the water anywhere. 

Actually, the blueprints for the house show the footing drain pipes extending
out to the sides and down the front yard...  (But I've never found an outlet
to them...)

Dan

>    My guess is, after you spend that $2000 on perimeter drains you'll 
>    be spending another wad on grading.

re: re-grading.   Hmm, maybe I ruled it out too quickly.  But I think an 
awful lot of re-grading would be needed.  Most of the [grass-covered] backyard,
about 150' back, slopes towards the house... and there's only about 2 inches
of bare foundation.  Both landscapers seemed to shy away from it when I 
mentioned it, so I didn't really persue that avenue much more.  (And re-grading 
also causes problems with a near-ground-level deck.)

Mac (.-2), in case I still need to put in a drain, how did you have your drain
constructed?

Thx,
Dan

    Dan,
    
      You don't necessarily need the whole yard to slope away from the
    house.  We have a hill behind our house but the yard is graded such
    that the ground slopes down away from the foundation for 8 or 10 feet
    and then goes up.  Kind of V-shaped.  As long as you the bottom of the
    V has some slope to either side of the house, this should channel the
    water away from the foundation.  I guess we'll see how well this works
    next spring.
    
    							John

	As it happend, we have a guy coming this week to regrade my back and
	side yards, for the same reason you have (really bad drainage).
	Total cost will be just under $2000, including 90 yards (!) of loam,
	seeding, fertilizer, etc. 

	Your back yard sounds bigger, but it would probably be worth getting
	a few estimates on the re-grading. The estimates we got ranged from
	the $1900 for this guy (whom we've worked with before a few times)
	to $2400 and $2900 for a lawn company and landscaper, respectively.
	The total materials and general plan also differed between the
	various estimates. 

	Roy

If there is existing drainage that isn't working, you
might want to work hard to find the outlet(s) shown
on the blueprint. If the outlets were covered or blocked
then the whole system won't work.

    Just FYI  My parents had big water problems in their basement.
    There is a large hill behind their house and the backyard sloped 
    toward the house.  Its an old house with a fieldstone foundation.
    They had a swale put in and now they don't have water problems .
    You can see just how much water the swale moves when its raining
    because its directed through the edge of their driveway.  in short
    it was a very effective fix for them.
    
               Dean

    
     You don't need to add soil, but *remove* soil maybe 30 feet away from
    the house and gradually slope what's left to that the *new* place is
    the low spot. This is exaclty what people with large hills near their
    houses do and it works very well. 
    
      re  drywells - I don't believe I have ever seen a drywell with
    remotely enough capacity to take house runoff from a storm. If you can
    direct the outlet of the drain system to some lower area that is
    *above* ground, then it will work.
    
    					Kenny

re: finding the outlet for the footing drains.  I (and the landscapers) have
made many attempts to find the outlets - but no luck.  My guess is that
there are no outlets.

Even if there are outlets, I think the perc rate of our yard is not the 
greatest.  I think it's around 12 or 15 minutes.  (I recall looking
at building lots that had perc rates in the 5 to 7 minute range.)  So
the water may not get down to the footing drain fast enough anyway (before 
trying to 'perculate' through the foundation.)

re: swale.  Ya, I guess I knew I wouldn't need to re-grade the entire backyard,
but rather just enough for a swale...  Time to read about swales (like 
effective slope, size, etc).

Thanks for the replies everyone (of course more are welcome, even on the 
swale specifics),

Dan

    
    RE: How was the perimeter drain put in:
    
    	The perimeter drain went in when the foundation was poured.
    	It loops around the structure, buried in stone, and has an
    	outlet on the low side of the yard.
    
    	As far as my grading went, it was just as .14 described:
    
    	  The soil was originally about 2" below the siding. The 
    	grader lowered this to about 8" below the siding and sloped
    	the back yard (it looks flat but isn't) into the opposing
    	hill and created a subtle swayle where the two surfaces meet.
    
        Here are some really bad graphics to help:
    	

    Side View:
    
    	     BEFORE                               AFTER
    
                            ........
           | house  |     ./                    | house  |             ......
           |        |..../                      |        |           ./
   ........|________|      backyard      .......|________|--_____. ./
                                                                  "
    							    New bigger
                                                            backyard
                                                            with swayle (")
    
    
    	ALso, there is a deck in the backyard that is on a slightly 
    	different grade, but not enough such that we had to remove it and
    	regrade under or anything. He just worked around it.
    
        The swayle carries the water from the side yard (also regraded)
    	all the way around to the lower side yard.
    	
        More bad graphics:

    	TOP VIEW
    
             BEFORE                             AFTER
          ..............                     ............... *     *=path of
         ................                   .................. *     swayle
    	_________-----...                  _________----- ......*
        |       |    |...                  |       |    |........*
        |       |deck|...                  |       |deck|.........*
        |house  |---- ...                  |house  |---- .........*
        |       |........                  |       |.............*
        |_______|........                  |_______|............*
       ..................                  ....................*
       ..................                  ...................*
    	                                   .................*  
                                               ************
    

    You shouldn't need a huge amount of slope to make it work - just
    enough so it's definitely not sloping toward the house.  Standard
    plumbing drain slope is 1/4" per foot.
    
    

   I can attest to how well a slight change in slope (away from the foundation)
  can dry up all your water problems.

   - Bob

Re: drywells

A previous owner of my house put in a set of drain pipes leading to a
drywell.  This drywell is about 8 feet deep, and is just a hole in the
ground (no rock fill).  I use the water in the drywell to run my sprinkler
system.  When it rains the drywell overflows on to the ground around it.  I'm
probably the only guy who runs his sprinklers to *avoid* flooding.

Don't count on a drywell.

    RE: .16  Regrade and "swayle"?
    
    I have this problem and am considering regrading and drains in my yerd.
    (maybe we should talk Dick?)  The estimates given are helpful.
    
    .16 is a great picture, but I'm unsure of what you mean by "swayle"?
    Can you describe/define the term?
    
    In my yard I've considered running one drain down to  curb edge of my
    driveway, and just installing a basin with a grate,  covered
    with gravel... the water can emerge and cross the drive into the
    street.  The other is a problem, but I have plenty of down hill slope
    below the house to "water".
    
    If you wish to cover a drain run with sod, landscape fabric is
    recommened to keep the silt out of the gravel.
    
    	Dave.

    re: .20
             _
    swale (swal), n. [prob. akin to ON. svalr, cool], a hollow or
      depression, especially one in wet, marshy ground.
    
    

    
    Think of a swayle as a (usually) very shallow trench that gives the 
    water a natural path to follow. In many cases, such as mine, it is 
    so shallow that it isn't noticeable, just a slight dip where two
    slopes meet. 
    
    								- Mac

    
      In addition to all of this, one needs to consider where the water
    from the roof goes. *Anywhere* near the foundation is bad if you have a
    water problem. The best thing to do is direct the outlet of the gutters
    into a 4" pipe that runs underground to a lower spot than the area
    near the house. I've done this at two homes and it works great. Use
    non-perforated septic pipe. Its cheap and you don't have to bury it
    deep at all. (6" below surface is plenty)
    
    				Kenny

>		The best thing to do is direct the outlet of the gutters
>    into a 4" pipe that runs underground to a lower spot than the area
>    near the house. I've done this at two homes and it works great. Use
>    non-perforated septic pipe. Its cheap and you don't have to bury it
>    deep at all. (6" below surface is plenty)

Good point, even with a swale, roof runoff still needs to be directed...

re: 6" below surface.  I thought that if you don't bury something below 
the frost line (~4') then frost heaves could potentially damage it.  For 
example, where two pipes meet could become detached...

Dan

    re: .24
    As long as everything goes up and down the same amount, frost is
    not a problem.  That would probably be true in this case.  

    Re: .24
    
    In addition to Steve's comments...the four foot number is for
    Alaska....the worst I have every seen in Massachusetts was 1 foot
    in the middle of winter.....snow, not water is then the problem.
    
    Marc H.

I used to work in cemetary.  I can vouch for the fact that frost doesn't 
exceed about 18" in southern New Hampshire.

After all the help in here, I figured I'd report the results from what we 
did...

After having some heavy rain and snow melting that would have surely had our
basement floor covered... there wasn't a hint of water in the basement!

From previous replies, I couldn't decide if a perimeter drain or swale would
best cure my problem.  The concensus opinion, with which I agreed, was that a 
swale was better.  Well, I went with a perimeter drain - since I needed some
piping to carry away the water from the downspouts anyway.

In the fall, I put in a perimeter drain along the entire back side of the
house.  The pipe was 4" perforated and flexible (to make it easier to lay
and to give it some play in case of frost heaves.)  On top of the perf
pipe I layed a solid flexible pipe to carry away the water from the downspouts.
The trench was about 10" wide, up against the foundation, and backfilled to
the top with 3/4" stone.  The depth of the hole started at 2 ft and sloped 
1/8" per foot and ended about 3 ft deep.  At the ending corner of the house, 
the pipes merged into one solid pipe - which was lead to the side of the yard 
and downhill about 50ft.

I had three quotes to do this work, ranging from $1600-2300.  I decided to
do it myself.  I hired a local landscaper and one of his crew to help me 
dig and backfill.  It took us 2 1/2 days.  Total cost including labor and 
materials was $800.

Oh, and with the extra topsoil, I also regraded one notorious low spots near 
the house.

Thanks for all the help in here.  I wouldn't have tackled this problem myself
without the input from many in here.

Dan

    
    Now you'll be getting our bill!...:)
    
    

    Re: .0
    
    Take a garden hose, turn it on full force, and start pushing it into
    the pipe as far as it can go. The water coming out will disolve the
    dirt as you push it in. Maybe a nozzel on the hose turned to a strong
    stream would be even better.
    
    Marc H.

    Thansk for the idea!

What's a "French Pipe"? The term is new to me. It sounds like some sort of
drainage component - maybe from a gutter system?

-Jack

    
    Comes from France!  At the end of the pipe, it Pireare' (SP)
    not just anyold ground water!!....
    
    
    
    I think their might be some cross in terms between a "french drain"
    and a "Perimiter Drain".  The common FD uses stone.  The PD uses
    stone and pipe....
    
    JD

We are looking at new construction and I'd appreciate any help on a water
table question.  

There is an old well on the property (we'll be using town water) close to
where the foundation will be. You can see water 7' down in the well, so I
assume this is the water table and that it is likely that this will be higher
in the spring. My question is what special precautions should we take when
putting in the foundation. The builder has told us we don't need a perimeter
drain, but it seems to me we should do something to reduce the risk of water
in the basement. Is it even allowable to put a foundation in that runs below
the water table?

Thanks in advance,

Jack

Jack,

As a first point, I thought perimeter drains were required by code in MA.
Anyone else know whether this is true?

Also, I think your assumption about the water table is probably accurate. I
would recommend putting them in. Better to be safe than sorry. If they are
never needed, the expense shouldn't be great. If they are needed and you
don't have them, the expense and trouble will be extensive. If you need an
example, come by and see my neighbors house this March...

							Mark

P.S. Welcome to homework! I'll be expecting to see you in Parenting soon too!
								;-)

>As a first point, I thought perimeter drains were required by code in MA.
>Anyone else know whether this is true?

The bulding inspector in my town told me that footing drains are mandatory
in MA.  Every new house going up in my neighborhood has had them.

But the interesting thing about the footing drains is that I've never seen
and outlet pipe (above ground) for the drain...  The blueprints for my house
showed two above ground outlet pipes - but we never found them...

Anyway, concerning putting a foundation below the water table - I don't
know if it's allowed (I would hope not) - but I would certainly have a
"dry basement garauntee" clause in the P&S and expect a sump pump to be
put in eventually.

Dan

    Hire an expert!!!  There are engineers that specialize in this kind of
    thing.  I wouldn't mess around with water problems.  I've
    seen half of the new homes on my street have water in the basements. 
    The fixes have been expensive, not to mention the aggravation of having
    to deal with a flooded basement after moving into a new home.  Most if
    not all of the problems could have been avoided had the after-the-fact
    fixes been done when the house was being built.  
    
    Most of the homes on my street didn't have an indication that there
    would be problems beforehand.  But in your case you've got a good
    reason to be concerned.  I'd want to be sure that something CAN be
    done to insure that you won't have problems, then that you (AND THE
    BUILDER) understand what should be done and agree on costs, and finally
    be sure that the builder implements the recommendations correctly. 
    
    The cost of hiring an objective, 3rd party, expert should be well worth
    the insurance of not having water in your basement.
    
    
    Good Luck!

    In the FALL there is water 7' down, and your builder doesn't think
    that even a footing drain is needed?  I have a really uncomfortable
    feeling about this builder... A well low down on my property rises
    more than 10' in a wet spring, you should surely plan on water 
    above your basement floor if it's already 7' down.  That doesn't
    mean that you cannot build there and have a dry basement, but 
    whatever is done to keep the basement dry (e.g. expansive clay,
    footing drains, etc) must be planned before any concrete is poured.
    
    	Luck,
    	Larry
    
    PS -- Perhaps Mass law requires a footing drain but doesn't require
    it to emerge to daylight?  :-)

    We had a perimeter drain installed in conjunction with finishing our
    basement, since we had (!) a water problem that, if untreated, would
    have ruined everything we were doing. Ours empties into a drywell
    located approx 15'-20' beyond the downhill side of the house.
    
    Don't recall the component price to have it done, since it was quoted as 
    part of the overall job, but I do know this...the major cost component was 
    the excavation work. Add to that the aggravation of having to rip up the 
    lawn/landscaping abutting the foundation, and having to dispose of any 
    'surprises' dug up while excavating, and having to do some excavation by 
    hand, since the backhoe couldn't reach all the way under the 24x12 deck, 
    etc, etc, etc. and the cost to have a perimeter drain installed at 
    construction time seems like cheap insurance! Believe me...even if our next
    house is built in the middle of the Sahara, it'll have a perimeter drain 
    installed at construction time...
    
    If they install one when doing the foundation work, the only added cost
    should be some (minor) extra digging, the cost of the crushed stone and
    PVC pipe and the drywell materials.
    
    Good luck 

Thanks for all the replies... you've been a lot of help. 

Our plan now is to put the perimeter drain in and possibly (for additional
insurance) put a hole in the corner of the basement floor in case we need to
put a sump pump in later.

The only remaining issue now is where to run the perimeter drain outflow pipe.
In order to run down a gentle slope to a stream nearby (~200' away), we would
have to cross the neighbors land (see below). Some of you have mentioned a
drywell, so I guess there's that option as well. Also, I'm going to check with
town hall to see if there are any types of storm drains in the road.

Jack

            ------------------------------------------
           |                                        : |
           |                                        : |
           |                                        : |
           |       XXX                              : |
           |      neighbor's house                  : |
           |                                        : |
           |                                        : |
           |                                        : |
           |                                        : |
            ----------------------------            : |
               |                        |           : |
               |                        |           : |
               |                        |           : |
               |                        |           : |
               |                        |         s : |
               |                        |         t : |
               |                        |         r : |
               |                        |         e : |
               |                        |         a : |
               |         our house      |         m : |
               |            ___         |           : |
               |           |XXX|--------------------: |
               |            ---         |           : |
               |                        |           : |
               |                        |           : |
-------------------------------------------------------------
        		town road
-------------------------------------------------------------

    you might want to put in a ring of 4" perforated PVC pipe under the
    basement floor before they put down the large gravel and the concrete;
    although you can get a fair amount of water flow through the large
    gravel, the ring of pipe (both ends dumping into the sump) will make
    the basement drainage work much better.
    
    Given how easy it is to do this when preping for the basement floor,
    and how hard it is to do it later, I'd do this even if I were building
    a house on top of a desert mesa 8-)
    
    ...tom

    I think you're making the right decision re: the drain, but I would
    *not* advise pre-installing a hole for the sump pump. Unless you found
    some way to seal it tight (and I mean tight enough to withstand
    some pressure from below), you're providing an open door for any ground
    water beneath your slab to enter the basement. If you were to
    preinstall such a hole, you might as well preinstall the sump pump
    because, brother, you're gonna' need it...:^}. If it ever comes to
    that, punching the proper size hole in the slab is not all that
    difficult.
    
    I'd also agree with the last reply (preinstall a french-drain), but
    would do it in addition to the perimeter drain. After all, PVC pipe
    is relatively cheap compared to the after-the-fact solutions.
    
    If it were me, the only preplanning I would do for a sump pump would be
    to somehow ensure that the low spot for the slab was located in an 
    unobtrusive corner of the 'downhill' side of the house. Having a low spot 
    located right where the furnace is, for example, would make it more 
    difficult to properly install a sump pump, if there ever comes a need 
    for one.
    
    Re: where to drain?
    
    storm drain: would be my first choice (if legally, technically and 
    financially possible).                    
    
    stream: does your town allow it? How do your neighbors feel about
    you trenching across their property? Do you need an easement?
    
    drywell: how far is it from your house to the neighbor's property line?  
    Find out what the setbacks are before choosing a possible spot for a
    drywell. If there isn't enough distance in a direct line, you may want
    to consider angling the drain away from the downhill side of the house.
    If you can't locate it far enough from the foundation (again, chech
    with your building inspector re: local codes), the accumulated water may 
    push back against your downhill wall, with the potential for problems. 
    
    Again, good luck. Wish I'd had the opportunity to plan a defense in
    advance, rather than fighting the battle aftyer the fact!

Along the theme of "defensive" tactics.  Things you can do to save money
later.   If you are concerned about radon there are things you can do
while the house is going that could save you lots later if you did end
up having radon.  e.g.  put in a 4" pvc pipe from underneath the slab and
up the outside of the foundation.   The pvc cost is negligible.
-Larry

    well looking at the problems in my basement...
    
    I get a minor but significant water for a few weeks in the spring.
    I don't have a official sump hole, or a french drain inside the
    foundation, but water pressure causes the slab to crack, and water
    comes up around the edges of the slab at the joint with the wall/footings.
    I've going to seal them, but I don't hold must promise for solving the
    problem.  The slab will probably buckle some more.
    
    While I tend to aggee that pre-forming the sump hole may seem like a
    liability, if water wants to come in, you typically cannot stop it.
    
    I would definely plan for one, maybe frame the hole and put a thin
    layer of concrete in the bottom, that could be quickly hacked out when
    needed. And put in the interior drain pipe as well.   Water will flow
    in the gravel base, but not as fast as if you channel it.
    
    	FWIW: Dave.

    
    If you bother to put in the "ring of pipe" (I'd recommend it)... then
    install a sump bucket and run the pipes into it. SUmp buckets  are
    installed so that the top is flush with the slab and a lid is sealed
    down over it. The idea is to get the water out before it gets in as 
    opposed to having it run across the floor into an open hole.
    
    This is the arrangement (sans the ring of pipe that I wish I had) I
    have in the basement to combat the spring runoff.
    
    
    								- Mac

I am putting a French Drain across the back of my property to eliminate a
small river that I get everytime it rains (or the guy up the street overwaters 
his grass). Since my house is one of the last houses built on my street
the swale runns through my yard about 4 feet from the back fence. 

My plan is to lay the drain along the existing swale and cover it with gravel,
landscape fabric, then topsoil and sod. This also should allow me to make my 
backyard much more level. I do plan to make sure that the lowest spot is still 
where the swale is now so that I don't screw up the drainage. 

My questions are:

1) Should I lay the drain such that the center of the pipe is where the top
of the dirt is now or should I position the bottom of the pipe here the top
of the dirt is now. 

2) Do I need to enclose the whole drain system in landscape fabric to prevent 
it being clogged with dirt from all directions or is it sufficient to just 
put the fabric on the top under the topsoil.

3) The pipe I bought is 4" white plastic with two sets of opposing drain holes.
Do the holes go on the top & bottom or on the sides? 

			* Side View *
                                                                        +-------
									|   My 
									| House	
	                                                                |      
F|                                                                      |
E|	Existing					     +----------+------
N|      Swale-                                               |  Patio   
C|           |                                             --------
E|           |                                     --------
---          |                           --------
   ---       |                 ---------
      ---    |         --------
         --- V --------
            --- 

Guess it's too late since you alreasy bought it but......
I'm also putting in a drainage ditch.  According to the people who are paving my
driveway there is plastic pipe you can buy that comes already wrapped with
fabric.  They suggested Corriveau-Routhier in Nashua, NH as a possible source.

George

  1215  TACHYN::SUSEL        12-JUN-1987     2  Seal a french Drain?

    If the holes in the pipe are 180 degrees apart (directly opposite)
    then they ought to go on the sides.  If they are closer together
    one way around than the other, the closer-together way should go
    on the bottom.  The idea is for the water to rise up into the
    pipe, not drain into it from the top.

I just saw this subject on Gardening Naturally and paid close attention
to their recommendations because I have similar issues.

They used a pipe perforated on the top *only*.  That seems to make
sense for surface water drainage.  For a high water table I can see where
holes on the side/bottom for rising water would work.  They didn't
mention the reason for the drainage.  I suppose it varies.  Does the
solution change?

They put a "white spun bonded fabric" on top of the gravel (that was
on top of the pipe that was on top of more gravel).  Then it was 
covere with soil and sod.

I have a system with a perf pipe with holes on top and bottom. I'm not sure
what the pipe is covered with underground, but at the surface there is a 
thin layer of gravel over soil (constant weeding necessary!).  Seems like 
a pretty useless system to me.  Plus the drain doesn't pitch downward
at the outlet.  I've never seen any water draining at the outlet.

Have you ever tested how fast water drains through landscape fabric?  Not 
very fast...so you might find that it will keep the area from draining as 
fast as you would like (I assume you'd like a faster drain since you have a 
flash flood type of problem.)  

If you place the proper sized gravel on and under the pipe then you really 
don't need the fabric.  Put gravel that is too large to fit in the holes 
right on/under the pipe and cover that will smaller gravel then dirt.  I 
doubt it will clog.  Fabric is certainly easier to work with than gravel 
but it is not a substitute.  

    The fabric they used on Gardening Naturally was floating row cover
    (remnay) fabric. Water penatrates it very easly. But agree with
    washed stone there is no real need for it.
    
    
    
    Don
    

Thank you all for the information. I only want to do this job once, so this 
kind of 'been there, done that' information is extremely valuable. 

re: last couple 

I may skip the fabric. my orginal concern was that the topsoil would just wash 
thru the drain and leave the sod sitting on gravel, but it sounds like thats 
not the case if I use two layers of different size gravel. 

thanks again,
d.t.

Drainage problem no. 2:

We have a walk-out basement door at the back of the foundation. There is a
deep swale going out from it into the backyard, tapering off until it's at
grade. No problems here... the swale is sloped outward slightly and drains
pretty well in heavy rains.

The problem is that silt is washing down the as-yet-ungrassed sides of the
swale and damming up water right at the door. Of course, this water ends up
in the basement.

So... what to do? Wait for the grass and see what happens, or plan on
draining it? Right now I'm leaning towards draining it... either digging out
the swale a shovel's depth deeper, or putting in drain tile that empties out
down the swale a ways.

We have a perimiter drain around most of the house that dumps out into the
swale well below the damming spot. It doesn't cover the back side of the
house, though.


                                   swale
                                /            /
                              /           /    \             _
                            /          /        \            /|
                          /         /            \          /
                         /       /                \        /
             _          /       /                  \   downhill 
             /|        / silt  /                    \
            /         |  here |                      \
           /          |       |                       \
        downhill     +--+   +------------------------+ |
                   | |   walk                        | |
                   | |   out                         | |
                   | |   door      house             | |
                   | |                               | |
                   | |                               | |
                   | |                               | |
                   | +-------------------------------+ |
                   +-----------------------------------+
                         perimiter drain --->

Other interesting developments since the weather's gotten warmer...

The outer edges of the fill around the septic system are sort of settling in
large clumps. So we now have several largish craters out there. I guess the
material was frozen when bulldozed into place (December), and now it's all
melting out.

This is no big deal, because we're letting most of those spots just grow back
into meadow grass anyway.