Conference 7.286::home_work

Before you say 2 inches is not very think, remember that nobody has even
mentioned the composition of the material.  Insulative properties depends on
both thinkness and composition.  Ensolite pads (for all you campers out there)
are under 1/2 think and allow you to sleep on an iceburg (if you're so 
inclined).

-mark

    Yes, but we are talking about what is on the market in the way of
    pipe insulation.  The commonly available sources are fiberglass
    and foam (whatever it's called).  I was referring to the thickness
    of the foam.  I WAS WRONG, however, concerning the thickness.  2
    inches is the thickness I have.  It just looks thicker to me for
    some reason.  Grossmans sells some cheap looking stuff that is not
    as thick.  
    

    
    A reminder of the obvious:
    
    The way to compare the effectiveness of various types of insulation
    is via their R-values. I was looking at pipe insulation (the foam
    tubes type; the fibergalss stuff is difficult to put on and not
    much use when you get it there...), and found R-values in the R2
    to R3 range, which seem low at first, until you realize that you're
    insulating in an enclosed, at least partially insulated space.
    
    
    

    As mention earlier, SPAGs is selling CLIMATUBE, the best pipe
    insulation (tube type) I've seen around (based on contruction and
    R-value). AND its on sale at around $2.79 per package (12'). That's
    real hard to beat price wise. 
    
    	I use the tube insulation on all the straight runs of pipe and
    wrap the valves and tees with fiberglass 4" roll type insulation
    to facilitate installation.
    						/Glenn
     

    $2.79 a 12' package is a REAL GOOD PRICE.  Let's see, I bought 15
    packages at $4.99 so would have saved $33 dollars.  Certainly would
    have paid for my gas to go down there.  Oh, well!

    re .3 
    It costs us about 400 gallons of oil each summer to heat our
    hot water. ( a delivery in April, another in July, another in October
    typically). We have two teenage daughters. 
    Are you really sure about $65.00. Tell me the trick
    
    
    				herb

    re .15
    400 of gallons of oil in a summer to heat hot water!?  I'm paying
    about $20/month - for electric - including rental of the water heater!
    Admittedly I don't have two teenage daughters, but there are two
    of us and we do laundry and take showers frequently enough not be
    be obnoxious in public.
    I've insulated the tank (80 gallon size) and have the temperature
    set to about 120.  I also have low-flow shower heads, which I 
    personally think give better showers than "normal" shower heads
    while saving on hot water.  
    Think about ways of using less hot water, but also think about
    a serious update to your whole heating system.  
    
    Steve

    The system was installed in early June.  The 275 tank was filled then.
    Around the end of September they topped it off.  I don't remember
    how many gallons, but the bill was $65.  Our family typically take
    2 baths, one shower, one dishwasher load and one laundry load per
    day.  Our system does not use the heating coil method, which I
    understand is not as efficient in summer, but rather the separate
    insulated hot water tank method.  It's a 40 gallon tank I believe.
                                      
    

Re: using 400 gallons of oil in a summer to heat hot water:

I've been playing around with some numbers to get an idea of just what
"400 gallons of oil" means in relation to heating hot water.

Given:   1 BTU = the amount of heat it takes to raise 1 pound 
		 of water 1 degree F.
	 1 gallon of heating oil = 125,000 BTU (approx.)
	 1 pint = 1 pound (more or less)

Then:

	400*125000
	---------- = 89,000 gallons water can be heated from 50 to 120
	  70*8		    degrees by 400 gallons of oil.  (The "70" 
			    is the 70-degree differential between 50
			    and 120, and the "8" is 8 pounds/gallon).
Even allowing for a typical 75% efficiency in a typical boiler, you are
talking about 66,750 gallons, a heck of a lot of potential hot water!
I'd say that something is grossly inefficient about your hot water system.

For comparison, I used 301 kilowatt-hours to heat hot water last month.
If you use the conversion factor 1 kwh = 3412 BTU, 301 kwh figures out
to about 2,000 gallons of hot water used in a month.  I'm not making
any allowance for heat loss after the water is heated, so the real number 
of gallons used will be less (in both your case and my case), but 2,000 
at least sounds within the relm of possibility.

Any chance of getting an old water meter hooked up to your hot water supply?
If so, you could figure out the true efficiency of your hot water heating.

Steve

    All your good figures about hot water use just prove you dont have
    a teenage daughter! and the poor guy who wrote the original note
    has TWO of them. If you think hot water use is high check electric
    for hair dryers :-)
    
    Actually $400 does sound a bit high- my summer gas bills, for cooking,
    clothes dryer and hot water rarely exceed $30 a month.
    
    Ron, father of one Blonde teenage daughter.

     When I lived with three roommates, in an apartment with tankless 
hot water heated with oil, it cost us $20-$25 per month, at 
$1.00/gallon for the oil.  Teenage daughters or no, there is something 
wrong with $400 to heat water!

      1) Don't forget  to  insulate  the  waterheater  itself before you
      begin to worry about the  pipes!   (If  its a relatively new model
      you may be able to skip this,  but it's a cheap thing to do anyway
      and won't hurt...)
      
      2) Before you worry  about  insulation  ALL hot water pipes, think
      about insulating those from  the  water  heater and then about 4-8
      feet out (in all directions,  if  the pipe branches).  These pipes
      not only cool down themselves, but they can "wick" the heat out of
      the heater itself.
      
      3) If you insulating a lot  of  pipe,  don't pay the price for the
      formed split-tube insulation described  earlier  in this note.  By
      regular craft paper faced  fiberglass  blanket insulation.  Cut it
      into strips about 10 feet long  (or  as long as you can reasonably
      handle) and about 5-1/2" wide (i.e. about 1/3rd of the 16" nominal
      width that the stuff comes in.) Now you can fold it over the pipes
      and staple the edges  together,  or  you  can  wrap it in a spiral
      (helix?) then tape  it  with  rings  or  an  oposite twist spiral.
      (Electrical tapes works fine.)  

    re: -1 item 3)  What a hack!!!  You've got to be kidding!  I
    don't care if it does work, I care too much about what my basement
    looks like to do something like that to it.  And boy do I hate
    working with fiberglass.  I'll pay the bucks for the Climatube,
    thanks just the same.  At 2.69 per 12 feet your talking only
    about $40 or $50 for the whole job.  And a whole lot easier job
    to begin with.

    
    RE: $400.00 for hot water.
    
    Don't forget to factor in the fact that the furnace has standby
    losses and does continue to run continously [intermittantly] around
    the clock as well.
    
    I also have two teenage daughters and there is one other consideration
    to take into account - *CLOTHES*!! My wife must spend close to 3
    solid hours a day washing clothes. Teenage girls have an adversity
    to wearing the same clothes for more than 1 hour at a time. This
    is somehow factored in their genetic makeup. Fortunately, I also
    have a son who is 9 and helps to offset this problem by not changing
    his clothes for a month at a time. However, when he becomes a teenager
    I will need to remortgage my house to pay for the utilities.
    
    Charlie

re: oil heated hw and teen agers

Add a timer (the kind that wind up and turn off in x minutes) to
the HW thermostat circuit (in series) with a defeat switch (in
parallel to the timer).  When you need water, turn on the
furnace with it about 10 minutes before the water is needed.  My
Mom saves lots of oil with this switch.  She uses the defeat
switch when she has guests, so they don't try to take a shower
w/o the furnace going.

About teen aged laundry:  buy the kids their own laundry baskets
and teach them how to do it.  After the novelty starts to wear
off, they will save worn but unsoiled clothes for another
wearing before they wash them.  Also, they will have a clue
about how to do wash when they get to MIT or whereever.

    Follow up on .15

    My "program" was off by a factor of two.
    We used 200 gallon of oil in June,July,Aug at a cost of ~$120.00
    or $40.00 a month (at current prices). 
    That still seemed high, so I made some calls. Our oil burner man
    has been servicing this house for at least 15 yrs. He said the burner
    is not terribly efficient. He also said it would cost ~$2500.00
    for a complete replacement.
    Somebody suggested Mass. Save Auditor. (800-632-8300 in Mass) They
    describe themselves as a non-profit company sponsored by a pool
    of utility companies. They come to your house and do an "energy
    audit" for 9 or 10 dollars. Wouldn't come to our house because we
    don't use the product of any of their sponsors. However,
    they immediately gave me the number for Boston Edison(800-344-2284) who
    supplies our electricity. Edison will be making arrangements to
    come do an audit. (same 9 or 10 dollar price).
    For both companies the energy audit includes measuring the 
    efficiency of the burner,determining adequacy of wall and ceiling 
    insulation etc.
    We consume ~1400 gallons of oil a year. Current cost @.60 per gallon
    is $840.00. Now have to find out how inefficient our system is and
    how efficient a new oil system would be.

    Does anybody know how to get efficiency ratings of new systems. 
    (please not how to *measure*, how to *get*)
    
    
    			thnx for the help (and paternal sympathy:-)
    			herb

As far as oil burners go when I investigated an upgrade to the house we
bought three years ago the best flame retention burners on the market
could approach just under 90%.  I have a Riello which heats a 2200
sq foot house with cathedral ceiling, 6" walls and 12" insulation in the
attic.  Our winter oil usage runs about 300 gallons and this includes
generation of hot water for showers etc.  Regular new burners could be
in the low 80s, high 70s and OLD burners can be as low as 40%. If you
look at the most efficient oil burners you will find they are fairly
close in efficiency, you should then consider the quality of the boiler
(firebox and heat exchanger) and design of the total system (e.g. zoning).

Just to give you an idea the Riello system I have puts out  90000 
btu and will consume .75 gallons of oil per hour if
run continuously.  The most efficient units that are available are gas
units which extract all waste heat from the flue gasses.  These generally
do not need chimneys since the final waste product is a slightly
acidic water.  I believe you can get in the mid 90s with these units.

   Re: .25 etc.
    
    You may be able to get a replacement burner for your present boiler
    and improve things.  That ought to run you about $400 or so.  I
    did that a couple of years ago, replacing an old burner with a
    Carlin flame-retention burner.  I'm now getting 75%-80% efficiency.
    My boiler (1968 vintage) could use upgrading too, of course, but then 
    you're talking the $2500-$3000 you quoted, and it's not too bad as is.  
    It's just that the new ones are better.  I figured the burner upgrade
    would give me some savings for not a huge outlay and be a good partial
    solution.
    
    Steve
    
    Steve

    
    When I sold my house a while back, I carefully removed any loose
    pieces and painted the rest. It looked better and more importantly,
    the paint sealed it.
    
    When the home inspector came, he said that as long as it isn't
    flaking or loose, it's not a health hazard. Please note though
    that this was in the mid-80's. 
    
    							Hank

	When I had my house inspected (2 years ago) the home inspector
	suggested wrapping the asbestos in tin foil or saran(?) rap. Then
	use masking tape to seal the edges.


	-bob

>	When I had my house inspected (2 years ago) the home inspector
>	suggested wrapping the asbestos in tin foil or saran(?) rap. Then
>	use masking tape to seal the edges.

Masking tape won't work, it will dry out and fail in weeks, if not sooner.
Also, kitchen wraps (aluminum foil or plastic wrap) won't be strong enough.
If this is an approved practice at all (that is, wrapping and taping),
use good 3 or 4 mil plastic sheeting and good quality duct tape.

- tom]

    You can also get aluminium dryer hoses - slit them the whole length -
    wrap them around the  pipe - use a soft solder to seal them. Lots of
    work and it won't work on the really fat pipes, but not bad.

    To secure anything cylindrical around a pipe (insulation etc...) you
    can use string (like my grandfather), or ty-raps (nylon fasteners),
    they work fantastic on plain ole' pipe insulation.   -bd-
    

    The author requested that this note be reopened.  Information about how
    to seal asbestos and make it safe has not been discussed and we welcome
    any information you have to offer about how to work this issue.

    Bruce [moderator]

I don't necessarily recommend my course of action to anyone else, but I don't
have any misgivings about having done it either.

All the pipes in my basement were covered in asbestos.  Our building inspector 
said that every time the heat came on we were sending asbestos dust into the 
air.  Since we were planning to make a lot of use of the basement, we decided
to get rid of it.

My partner is a mechanical engineer who works as a professional building 
manager for a very picky suburban school system.  He has taken several courses
in asbestos management and has supervised asbestos removal for his school 
system.  He's a careful, conservative fellow.

He noted that asbestosis normally takes 20 years to show up and that only 
shipyard workers and others with extended daily heavy exposure are affected.
He noted also that wet asbestos is no danger whatsoever.  He also noted that
neither of us had ever worked around asbestos before.

So, we wet down the asbestos and wet it again and then put some more water on
it and then we cut it down, wearing dust masks and spraying more water with 
every cut.  We dumped it in plastic bags with more water and took it to the 
Newton dump on toxic waste day.

Maybe I'll be wheezing and remorseful in 2015, but I decided that two days
exposure to wet asbestos was a better deal than hiring a very expensive pro
remover.

    Re: -1
    
    I don't believe this is legal in Mass.  I'm surprised the Newton dump
    took the material.  Another one of those "must be licensed things I
    guess".
    
    					Steve

We made it clear it was asbestos.  The purpose of the toxic waste day is to
get it out of people's houses and into the hands of people who know what do 
with it.

    I don't know about Mass, but when we had our house in NH inpected for 
    a sale last year, the inspector said that if the asbestos was flaking
    it would have to be removed.  If it was in good shape he would require
    it to be cover, duct tape was fine.  We covered it all with duct tape
    before he came and he passed it without a comment.
    
    We used white duct tape which matched most of the walls and looked
    fairly good too.
    
    One tip to help your fingers survive many hours of ripping duct tape
    off the rolls.  If your pipes are too close to the ceiling, you'll have
    to wrap one strip at a time.  In fairly short order you'll develop a
    blister on one thumb and the opposite hand's index finger.  I simply
    wrapped those digits with duct tape before starting (the second day...)
    and didn't have any problems anymore.
    
    I also wore a dust mask when I was doing all the taping because you do
    generate some asbestos dust when wrapping it.
    
    Dave

re .10:
>    I also wore a dust mask when I was doing all the taping because you do
>    generate some asbestos dust when wrapping it.

    You mean one of those dust masks that has a warning that you shouldn't
    use it with asbestos?  Asbestos particles are *extremely* small.  An
    ordinary dust mask doesn't help.

Are you (.10) putting the duct tape right on the asbestos?
This would seem to be a bad idea, since to remove the tape (should the 
adhesive fail, or the tape get ripped, etc.) you will be re-fracturing
the asbestos surface, releasing more dust.  Shouldn't the pipes be wrapped
in plastic first?

I try not to be paranoid.  I agree with Parmenter, et al., that careful
work around a hazard of the degree of asbestos ought to be enough
to protect one, but this is an instance where the cure will be only
temporary, and the re-fix will make the problem worse.

- tom]

    Yes, taped directly to the asbestos.  Didn't really consider wrapping
    in plastic first, but that would create less of a mess if you ever had
    to remove the tape or asbestos.
    
    Dave

Is private wrapping of asbestos legal anymore in Massachusetts?
I know that private removal is not (above nominal amounts), but
I forget about wrapping.  But accordinging to the (possibly biased)
asbestos contractors with whom I spoke, a wrap job that would last
10 or more years is not so much less expensive than removal.  


re .10:  Ordinary "nuisance dust" masks are worthless around asbestos --
asbestos fibers even go right through the filters on an ordinary vacuum 
cleaner.  However, you can buy a mask that is supposed to keep out
asbestos fibers for about $20 at Spags.

re .7:  "He noted that asbestosis normally takes 20 years to show up
and that only shipyard workers and others with extended daily heavy 
exposure are affected."  NOT quite true.  I have a friend at DEC whose dad 
died from asbestosis (confirmed by autopsy).  He only worked with asbestos 
for a short period, I forget how long, but it was days or weeks, not months
or years.  I think he died about 5 years after the exposure.

The problem here is that no one really knows very much about exactly how 
asbestosis is related to exposure to asbestos.  Obviously some of those
shipyard workers have *not* died from asbestosis, but others with much
smaller exposures have.  There was an article in the paper recently about 
how perhaps only one kind of asbestos is dangerous, and the kind being so 
expensively ripped out of schools isn't.  Who can tell.  

Personally, I doubt that what .7 describes was significantly dangerous...
but I'd still recommend using an asbestos-proof dust mask when dealing
with the stuff.  And as .7 says, thoroughly wet asbestos is no danger at
all.  I gather that it isn't easy to get it thoroughly wet, though --
asbestos fibers are a lot smaller than, say, flour, and it sure isn't
easy to get a bowl of flour thoroughly wetted.  Professionals add a
surfactant (reduces surface tension) to make it easier to wet the stuff.

	Luck,
	Larry

re .14:

>                                                Professionals add a
>surfactant (reduces surface tension) to make it easier to wet the stuff.

Aren't surfactants a primary ingredient of detergents?  If so, it would
probably make sense to add some detergent to the water.  (Not that I would
recommend DIY asbestos removal even where legal -- I hope to live longer
than Tom Parmenter.)

How long have they been using asbestos? Like, was it around in the 40's when
most of Germany was reduced to dust?  Are those folks dropping like flies from
asbestosis?

    
.16> How long have they been using asbestos? Like, was it around in the 40's 
.16> when most of Germany was reduced to dust?  Are those folks dropping like 
.16> flies from asbestosis?
    
    My grandfather worked in an asbestos factory in the 1940s, and
    he died of complications from asbestosis (respiratory problems)
    many years later (in his 60s).  It was a long degenerative illness.
    Does that answer your question?
    
    FYI, he smoked cigars occasionally, but not cigarettes.  Smoking
    cigarettes can increase the risk of getting asbestosis by at least
    10 fold.  I forget the figure, but it's high.
    

    I am researching what to do about the asbestos on our pipes.  Here are
    some of the interesting things I have found:
    
    1-- I contacted the Department of Environmental Protection ( a state
    agency.  They sent me a good brochure on how to use wet wrap fiberglass
    to wrap the asbestos covered pipes.  It includes some guidelines about
    how to decide if your pipes are in good enough shape for this
    procedure.  You can get the brochure by calling 617-292-5631 and
    talking to Kristin Kirby.
    
    2- The Department of Labor and Industries has a list of certified
    asbestos removal contractors.  It is amazingly long-- about 100
    of them!  You can get this list by calling 508-752-6504.
    
    3- We have had 2 contractors come and look at our pipes.  They tend to
    use scare tactics as part of their hard sell.  Both my local building
    inspector and the state agencies suggest that I should encapsulate the
    asbestos pipes.  The contractors push removal.  At least these two did.
    
    4- I also ordered a book (which has not yet come).  It is supposed to
    be pretty good and is called Asbestos Handbook for Remodeling published
    by the National Assoc. of Home Builders.  You can get it by calling
    800-368-5342.
    
    5- I have made lots of phonecalls and talked to lots of people in this
    field.  It seems that there is a movement toward encapsulation rather
    than removal.  But the contractors I talked to haven't quite caught up
    with this new idea.  Also, most contractors are geared toward
    commercial and industrial problems.  Those buildings have a different
    set of problems both because of how asbestos was used in them and
    because the laws (and litigation problems) are different for them.
    
    6- Asbestos continued to be used until the 1970's.  In the 70's there
    was a sprayon ceiling material that contained asbestos-- it was called
    popcorn ceiling.  This is probably scarier than other home uses of
    asbestos. 
    
    7- We haven't decided what we will do.  It seems that moving cautiously
    is a good idea right now because things are in flux.  Removal certainly
    disturbs the asbestos.  And then it has to go somewhere else.  There is
    also a little known law that says that even after it leaves your house,
    you have a legal responsibility, and of course, you have a moral one.
    

    There is one other thing I forgot to say.  I got started on some of my
    best information trails from the Old House Journal.  Their April 1987
    issue has an article on asbestos.  Also, I called them to get the
    latest information they had.  They are planning another asbestos
    article.  This is a great publication for anyone with an old house
    (they say pre 1940).  You can reach them at 800-888-9070.  And you can
    buy back issues as well as subscriptions.
    

    I tried the 800 number for requesting the book about Abestos Removal
    from .-2.  The phone company suggests I dialed the number wrong and try
    again.  Could you check the number you listed to see if you happened to
    transpose any numbers?

    Yes, the number is wrong.  Sorry.  It should be: 800-368-5242 (the
    National Assoc. of Home Builders).
    

    Re .18:      The Department of Labor and Industries has a list of
    certified asbestos removal contractors.  It is amazingly long-- about
    100 of them!  You can get this list by calling 508-752-6504.
    
    To get the list, send a stamped, self-addressed envelope to:
    
    		Mass. Dept. of Labor and Industry
    		32 Franklin Street, Room 401
    		Worcester MA 01608
    
    Many thanks to .18 for supplying the information.
    
    	Marlene
    

    We had asbestos professionally removed from one of those old boilers
    so that we could dispose of it as nonhazardous waste.  However the
    pipes were covered in asbestos also, and the cost of removal was
    too high.  The straight parts of the pipe had sleeving over paper
    with embedded asbestos, but the joints were all coated with the
    plaster like stuff.  A friend in the industrial hygiene business
    gave us some of the fiberglass wet-wrap stuff (I guess that is what
    was referred to a couple of notes back) that I cut in strips, wet,
    and layed down.  It was like doing paper mache and hardened like
    a cast.  She also gave us a good quality respirator with asbestos
    filter inserts.  It was very time consuming fitting the little strips
    to the bends in the joint, but I think it will last.  I used a spray
    bottle to keep the work wet while additional peices were overlaid.
    The bad news is that when we first moved there I ignorantly swept
    out the basement a couple of times, including the dusty pipes, and
    I'm sure I've been exposed.  However, this friend tells me that
    about 75% of cancers are environmentally induced.  The whole thing
    is too depressing to think about.  You can just try to limit
    exposure to nasties in your environment and hope for the best.
    	Linda

re                      <<< Note 3782.23 by NAVIER::SAISI >>>

    What did they charge you to remove the asbestos from the boiler, and who did
  the work for you?

   Thanks

   Steve

    Steve,
      The company that did the work was National Surface Cleaning, and
    I thought they did a good job, although they had the enclosure set
    up for about a week, since they had to keep going on other jobs,
    and we made them come back and do more after a sampling company
    said that the seal had asbestos in it.  If you do get a quote make
    sure it includes disposal of the fire-bricks, and breakdown of the
    boiler, since the seals have asbestos in them also.  I don't know
    how hardnosed the dumps would be about these other components which
    have the asbestos embedded.  They gave us a quote of $700 for the
    boiler only, $3500 for the boiler and associated piping, and $5000
    for the whole basement, (all carrying pipes, and washing down the 
    walls and floors, etc.).  The sales guy remarked later that the
    quote for the boiler only would have been way low since that turned out 
    to be the biggest part of the job that they did.
    	Linda

I recently heard a report that removing asbestes is more dangerous than
leaving it intact as it is virtually impossible to remove it without leaving
behind more of a hazard in dust than if it was left in place.  

When i sold my house in Ma., DEC wouldn't buy it without having the asbestes
removed.  I got a quote for $1300.  So i said BS to DEC and sold it myself
without touching the asbestes.  I am pretty sure that in a short time,
the whole asbestes issue will subside as there really is absoulte proof
of knowing just how dangerous it is with limited exposure.  Plus, what
about the toxic waste from all the asbestes that is being removed?  Solve
one problem and create another - typical.

If you are not abosultely required by law to remove it from your home, 
personally i would not.

-jim

    In 3782.22 I provided the address of a Mass. governmental agency that
    will send you a list of certified asbestos removal contractors in
    return for a SASE.  I posted that note a month ago, the same day as
    sending the agency my SASE.
    
    Save your stamp, envelope, and time.  I'm still waiting for my list to
    arrive.
    
    	Marlene

    I have a problem which I do not know how to fix.  My asbestos covered
    steam piping is very wet and mildewing and I'm not sure what to do.
    
    About two years ago I turned my basement into a family room.  The house is 
    about 60 years old, has a field stone foundation, and is heated by steam.
    The steam piping is asbestos covered.   The piping runs thru the basement, 
    along the south and east wall of the basement just  a few inches awaw from
    the wall.  
    
    
    When building the family room I decided to build the interior wall on
    the otherside of the steam pipe.  Consequently the present situation is
    as shown below.
    
WOODEN FLOOR FOR FIRST FLOOR XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
                                                 |
     DROPXCEILINGXDROPXCEILINGXX                 |
	    		|ss|p|ff|     |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff|     |field. stn|
       FAMILY ROOM	|ss|p|ff| aOa |field. stn|   OUTSIDE
      LIVING SPACE	|ss|p|ff| aOa |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff| aOa |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
	    		|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
	    		|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
	    		|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
    			|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
	    		|ss|p|ff|  |  |field. stn|
concrete floorconcrete flo|r|on|ret| floorconcret| 
        	          | |  |   |
                	  | |  |   |__ steam pipe covered w asbestos
	                  | |  |______ fiberglass blanket
        	          | |_________ plastic sheeting
                	  |___________ sheet rock.
    
    As you can see, I have a standart 2x4 16"oc wooden wall covered with
    sheet rock and insulated with 3 1/2"of fiberglass.  I did insert a
    vapor barrier between the sheet rock and fiberglass.
    
    My questions are as follows:
    
    	Is there any way I can remedy the moisture or mildew situation.?
        (Short of taking down slices of the wall the pipe is not accessable)
    
    	If not and I have to take down the wall what could or should I
        replace it with ?
    
    	Any other comments suggestions ??
    
    
    						Thanks paul t.

    If the asbestos is wet there's a reason for it being wet. With steam
    pipes that age, it's possible that you've got a leak in the steam pipe.
    (I've had them at pipe junctions in an almost identical situation.)
    
    If it's a leak in the steam pipe you can't let it go. The soggy
    asbestos will fall off the pipes and cause you worries. If it's
    a leak - it'll probably just get worse and possibly cause water damage
    to your walls. If the leak really opens up, you'll have a lot of steam
    in your basement and no heat upstairs.... which is what happened to me.
    
    So, I'd bite the bullet and open the wall to check out the pipe. If
    it's corroded, you may see steam when the heat's on full.
    
    Also, a steamfitter quited me $800 to fix the pipe (one, mind you!)
    and my local plumber fixed it for $75. So shop around.

re .1:

    If the pipe needs fixing, no plumber will touch it until the asbestos
    is removed.  This will cost big bucks.

    If the pipe's OK, you'll have to solve the moisture problem behind the
    wall.  Take a look at the "wet basement" notes.  I don't see how it's
    possible to do anything withoout opening up the wall.

    I'm having a new boiler installed this week.My problem is that I 
    have
    asbestos on the pipes going into and out of the boiler (2 pipes)
    the plumber who is installing the boiler wont do it unless 2
    small sections of asbestos are removed (a total of around 2 and a
    half feet) I'm sure that if I have someone come in,I'm going to 
    have to pay some outrageous minimum charge.  Any and all 
    sugestions greatly appreciated.
                                   thanx,
                                         Marc

    Is there any reason why you cannot remove it yourself?
    
    This probably is a dumb question. :-)
    
    Kevin
    

    He probably wants to live a long life and not endanger his household.

    
    
    	..plus let's say he does take it down himself. Where shall he
    take it? I here the closest place is in New Jersey. Take it just
    anywhere, and if you're caught, if would have been cheaper to hire
    someone in the first place.
    
    gm

    	for desposal of asbestos, why couldn't you imbed it in concrete,
    say as part of a foundation/slab/steps?  This may not be legal, but
    it would seem to be safe (at least until someone demolishes the
    house/whatever to build something else, and by then we should be able
    to dispose of the stuff with some fancy gizmo/nano-machine/engineered
    virus/etc). - Chris

    Well I ended up paying some guy to do it.  It cost me $200.00.  
    The price range was 200-500.  The guy that did the removal took off 
    more than he was supposed to, so I guess as far as the price goes,
    I got a pretty good deal. The rest of it I will probably encase in
    wet wrap fiberglass (MYSELF!)
             thanx for the replies

If he charged that little, he must have been fly-by-night.  There's no way
to do it legally for that price, since the actual costs (permits, disposal)
would be greater than that.

    Re .18, others:  "The Department of Labor and Industries has a list of
    certified asbestos removal contractors. "
    
    If someone has this list, could you please send me a copy.  I've twice
    sent SASEs to the address that I posted in note .22 or thereabouts with
    absolutely no response.  My letters seem to go into some black hole at
    the state (Mass.) agency.  
    
    Thanks.
    		Marlene

    Re .35 Actualy it was very official,  I had to call the department 
    of environmental protection to get a special number since I had to 
    have it removed with very short notice (2 days) They deal with this
    guy all the time. He also sent me official looking forms that he 
    had to send in to the DEP.
    If anyone cares, his name is Michael Sheehy, The company is 
    Sheehy Environmental Services. He's in the greater marlboro area
    yellow pages.
    
    P.s. He said he dumps it someplace in New Hampshire and that my 
    name is forever more attached to the bag, so that if it ever poses
    a threat, and has to be removed, it comes out of my wallet!, from 
    what I understand, that's the way it is no matter who does the 
    removal.   

Possibly it was so cheap because of the small quantity.  When I had
asbestos removed, there were exemptions for 2' or 3' of pipe insulation
or 3 sq ft of asbestos tile.  The law has changed since then (maybe
more than once), but it might really be cheaper because of not
requiring as many precautions for such a small quantity.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Re. .37  That's exactly right! you win the prize! :^)  as long as 
    their is 3 feet or less (linear or square) you can get away with 
    using a glove bag. This is a bag with 2 gloves built into the bag
    so It's totally self contained. Also, since the bags are self 
    contained, their isn't the need to isolate the basement,which
    takes time, and of course, time is money
    
    
    p.s. It's also more expensive to remove elbows because they are more 
    difficult.   

    re: .38
    
    If the glove bag is totally self contained, how do you get anything
    into it?
    
    Elaine

    re: .39
    
    I'm not exactly sure, but I know that their is a way to put your 
    tools etc., inside before you seal it around the pipe. 

    I recently bought a house that has had problems in the past with
    freezing pipes in the crawlspace under the bathroom.  The area in 
    question is about 6' by 6' and 18" high, with access via a small 
    trap door in the bathroom floor.  I was planning on putting heat tape
    on all the pipes underneath there (hot water, cold water, and drain),
    but after doing a little bit of measuring it turns out that I would
    need about 40' of heat tape (!).  Given the limited clearance,
    putting it on would also be a real pain.
    
    As an alternative, I'm thinking about installing a small electric
    baseboard heater attached to a 35 degree thermostat, and simply heating
    the entire area.  Has anyone done anything similar?  Can you think of
    any problems with this approach?  Any other ideas?
    

    Thanks,
    
    Steve
    

    > hot water, cold water, and drain...
    
    Shouldn't the drain be empty?
    
    Edd

From the dimensions you gave I guess you can't get in there to work.

If you could, I'd wrap them with bats of 6" or 8" insulation and tie
everything in place with wire (bailing wire is best, believe it or not!)
The end result is a "pipe" about a foot and a half in diameter.

If carefully done, this provides an _excellent_ barrier to cold. It also
cuts down on hot water useage if you can do enough of it between the
heater and the sink. I did this to a place I had in Colorado and was
very impressed.

Mickey.

Electrically heating a crawlspace to 35 deg could be rather expensive.  
The unit could be running continuously for a large portion of winter.
If the crawlspace is a wet location, then there could be code problems
with putting an electric heating unit down there, too.  

I'd suggest putting lots of effort into insulation -- whether around the
pipes, between the pipes and the rest of the crawlspace, or around the
perimiter of the crawlspace.  Note that for $10 this month at HQ, you can
get 4'x8' of R 7.2 foil faced foam insulation.  If you can attach a sheet
of that stuff to enclose the space the pipes are in, then heat transmitted
down through the bathroom floor should keep the pipes toasty warm, for
example.  Wrapping them is also a good idea, although I think typical
1/2" think pipe wrap is more like R 3.  A thick wrap, like .-1 suggest,
would be better than just slipping on the thin stuff.  Most important
of all, make sure the *entire* underfloor pipe is covered.  Small gaps
in the insulation have a major effect on the R value achieved.

I'm building a heated (to above freezing) storage room above my garage,
and I found out that increasing from normal insulation levels up to
R30 has a payback period of under 10 years -- when heated with electric 
baseboard units.  Per BTU, I think electric heat (at 13cents/KWH) came 
in around 5 time the cost of oil heat (at $1/gal).  

	Luck,
	Larry

    I need advice on how to handle this one. 
    
    We rent the first floor apt. of a house that has some damaged
    asbestos insulation around heat pipes in the basement. There
    is no subfloor and no insulation between the basement and our
    apartment and there are lots of drafts, so I have to assume that
    if there are fibers floating around in the basement, some are
    getting up into our apartment.
    
    I called a hotline at the EPA and they suggested wetting down the 
    insulation and wrapping the pipes with 6-mil plastic and duct tape. 
    I would be willing to do this if it doesn't result in even *more* 
    asbestos in the air from the wrapping job itself. 
                   
    How do you know whether it's better to just leave the situation alone?
    Should we get somebody to take air samples from our apartment, and
    make the decision on the results? (Is this expensive?)
    
    I don't even want to raise the issue with the landlord until I 
    have an idea of what the best course of action should be...
    
    Lucy

    
    	Re: .41
    
    >    I don't even want to raise the issue with the landlord until I
    >    have an idea of what the best course of action should be...
    
    	I would tell the landlord ASAP, with or without recommended courses
    of action.  You could offer to work with the landlord in researching
    solutions, but I really see no benefit in you keeping this quiet.
    
    							-craig

    
    
    If you on good terms wiht your landlord, I would voice my conserns
    about the condition of the pipes and health risks to you...
    
    If your not....there is always "You know about it and my lawyer
    does also....."  you may get it cleaned up, but the rent may reflect
    his actions.....
    
    soooo is you take a spray bottle.  Soak things down good, wrap
    it with plastic and tape it down.  It will should lesson the risk
    of airborn particals.  Maybe some time with the landlord too..
    
    JD

    
    is there some kind of grant or tax credit that landlords can get
    if they do this kind of work?  I saw something about a lead paint
    deductible in my tax reckoner.  Might be a bargaining point for you.
    
    Colin
    

    We are on fine terms with the landlords. In fact, we have sort of an
    unofficial rent control deal with them, where we do a lot of our own
    maintenance, and they don't raise the rent. It generally works out
    fine.                                                      
    
    But if I turn this problem over to them, I have little control over
    what happens. If they hire some bozo to wrap the pipes, and this person
    bangs around and causes a lot of dust, then *we* have to live with the
    results. I'd rather figure out what we want to have happen, then ask
    for their approval. They will most likely pay for anything reasonable.
    
    My real question is, how do you decide when it's best to leave the
    pipes alone vs. wrapping them?  Does anyone know whether damaged,
    but undisturbed asbestos in a case like this actually sheds?
    
    thanks

    RE: .45
    
    In answer to your question.....you just don't know.
    
    Marc H.

    You do know, however, that victims of silicosis and asbestosis are
    generally people like miners or shipbuilders who have breathed the dust
    for years and that stirring up the dust for a day or two in the
    basement is in no way comparable.
    

    .47
    
    Yes, I have done a fair amount of reading on this lately (hence
    all my questions). Apparently the type of asbestos used in most
    household pipe insulation is now thought to be much less harmful 
    than the kind used in shipbuilding and other heavy industrial stuff.
    "Garbage" magazine had an article a couple of months ago on this.
    
    The problem for me as a cautious parent of little kids is that no one 
    knows what level of exposure to the "good" asbestos is OK; nor do I 
    know how much is lying around in our basement already from previous 
    stirrings-up (removal of old furnaces, etc). I guess I'll wrap and 
    tape it and hope for the best.
    
    Lucy 

    Should you decide to take it down, the key is wetness.  The dangers of
    asbestos are neutralized when it is soaking wet.  This is according to
    my house-partner, who is chief of maintenance for the Weston public
    schools and has studied this issue seriously.
    

    I would remove it, and then remove the whole steam system . Then,
    install a hot water baseboard or hot air. 
    
    Marc H.

      
    Tom, 
    
    Your friend would probably be able to answer this nagging doubt that
    I had when first reading about the advice from the EPA. 
    
    Making an assumption that these are iron FHW or steam pipes,  I can see
    the safety reason for it, but I'd be a bit worried about wetting
    insulation and then wrapping it in vinyl.  If there are any iron
    fittings which are already fairly old, isn't there a risk of corrosion? 
    
    It might also be stating the obvious, but did the EPA state whether the
    heating system should be off during the work? (Apart from the risks of
    wetting hot cast fittings with cold water, the furnace will be creating
    a convection airflow, circulating any dust that you stir up.)
    
    (Perhaps I'm being over-cautious!!)
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    PS - Basenoter, a tip for cleaning up - Don't use a vacuum.  Get a big
    bag of sawdust and dampen it with water.  Sprinkle this over the floor
    first and sweep up with a soft broom.  Any asbestos dust that has
    settled out on the floor will stick to the wet sawdust and won't be
    stirred up again as you clean up.  You can also get an ANSI-standard
    filter facemask from Home depot for about $15-$20, might be a good idea
    to wear one as you work.

    RE: .51
    
    I wouldn't worry about the pipe. That stuff is around 1/8 inch thick.
    
    Marc H.

    Sorry.
    
    I meant, *either* wrap it or wet it and take it down.
    

    .53 and .49 (Tom) 
    
       OK, I won't eat it, although it will be awful hard to resist the
       temptation. (!)
    
    .51 (Colin)
    
       I wondered the same thing about wrapped wet insulation possibly
       causing corrosion...I'm not sure what to do about that. 
       I definitely plan to keep the furnace off during the work. It's 
       not that many feet of pipe to do - should be just a few hours' 
       worth, I hope. Thanks for the cleanup tips. 
    
    Lucy
    
    

    If you (or your landlord) want to go through the expense, I believe
    there are licensed contractors who will either remove or wrap the
    insulation depending on your wishes and the condition of the
    insulation.  The good ones take a lot of precautions to isolate the
    work area from the rest of the house during the operation.  They also
    don't work cheaply.

re .51:

>                                       You can also get an ANSI-standard
>    filter facemask from Home depot for about $15-$20, might be a good idea
>    to wear one as you work.

The type of filters used when working with asbestos are much more expensive.

    
    Yep, that's why I suggested a cheaper one.  An OSHA approved mask
    with a 26* series cartridge filter will cost around $40,  but it's hardly
    worth it for a small one-off job.
    
    C.
    
    
    

    And keep it wet when you're wearing that mask.
    

Couple of points.

If you get a mask, the filter you need is called a HEPA filter.  You can
buy them mail order for about $16 and then you pitch them when you're done.
Same catalogs usually carry the tyvek suits and the other useful hazmat gear.

If you wet it down, use an additive in the water to make it slipperier.
Ever seen water bead on nylon?  The asbestos is the same.  There is an
additive you can purchase that makes the water 100x more slippery but at
the least, add detergent.  

Don't worry about wetting the pipes.  When the joints and elbows were covered
with asbetos, that stuff went on wet as a paste.  Underneath my asbestos all
my pipes were rusty, but it was no big deal.  They're wet on the inside too,
right? If they were going to rust out, it would be from the inside out.

After reading all EPS's literature and popular current literature, I decided
to go the EPA route when I removed mine.  I did this with the certain 
conviction I was totally wasting time and money as a one time exposure posed
less health threat than a trip to any of Nashua's parks or rivers which were
all built on or lined with free fill from John's Manville.  I only did it 
the "right" way because the next buyer might test for asbestos and be scared
if my house has been contaminated.

After I did this I acquired some interesting anecdotal information.  My 
grandfather used to help the neighbors install asbestos on their pipes. My
dad and uncle would pour the powered asbestos into the trough and mix up
the paste with their hands and play with the resulting "clay".  They of
course took no precautions and helped with many houses.  That was in the 30's
and none have any resporatory symptoms.  Too small a sample, but the reply
that pointed out that its shipbuilders and miners who were constantly exposed
were the ones at risk.

      I don't want to be an alarmist, but...
      
      I  think  there  are legal requirements related to the abatment of
      asbestos hazards.  One thing to consider is the liability that you
      and/or  your  landlord  have  if  you do this yourself rather than
      having a licensed asbestos abatment contractor do it. I do not say
      this  as  a recommendation one way or the other, but I do think it
      is something to consider, especially now that  your  knowledge  of
      this  hazard  and  what  you are thinking of doing about it are on
      record here, in a public notes conference that could be discovered
      and used as evidence in a legal action.  

      My  recommendation to you is this:  It is not your problem to deal
      with this; it is your landlord's problem.  If you can't accept the
      situation  the way it is, and your landlord won't take care of it,
      then bite the bullet and find a new place to live.  
      
      If I read between the lines correctly then you are happy with your
      current arrangement and this is probably not welcome advise.   You
      must asses the present benefits vs future risks and make the trade
      off between present and future.  Personally, I think  that  loose,
      dusty asbestos insulation is a pretty strong incentive to move.
            
re: .59
      
      As  late  as  the 50s, possibly into the 60s that powered asbestos
      was freely available.  Scooped into paper bags  and  sold  by  the
      pound  at hardware stores.  I know because I used it.  As an other
      anecdotal point, I have no known problems to  date.   I  sincerely
      hope that the small, occasionally exposure was not harmful.

    I'm just catching up on the latest replies. Thanks to all.
    I still haven't done anything about removing the stuff (got
    to get over the flu first) and will mull over .60's warning
    about liability. 
    
    Lucy

A couple of comments.

1)  One reply says don't clean up asbestos with a vacuum, but doesn't
explicitly say why.  The reason is because asbestos goes right through
any normal vacuum's dust bag, so trying to clean up asbestos with a
vacuum (unless it's a special jobbie with a HEPA filter) is merely
an efficient way to get asbestos into the air.

2)  I'm amazed that the EPA told you to wrap it yourself -- I thought
that became illegal years ago.  For a while it was legal for licensed
professionals to wrap the pipes, but I understood that even that became
illegal for areas with more than 3' of asbestos covered pipes about
4 years ago.  On the other hand, maybe it is still illegal but the EPA
person was taking the very practical view that covering it yourself
is better than leaving it alone.

3)  I consider wrapping asbestos to be a poor solution, since most
wrapping jobs will only last a few years, and then what?  I'd suggest
that you tell your landlord that since it has to go sooner or later, 
why not get rid of it sooner?

4)  Alternately, if your landlord plans to replace the steam heating
system in a few years, that would be a good time to get rid of the
asbestos.  Insated of removing it from the pipes, it can be wrapped
in place and the pipes removed, which is safer if you do it and
cheaper if you pay to have it done.  Maybe now (while home improvement
loans are cheap) would be a good time to upgrade the furnace, get rid
of the asbestos, and also save money on heating.

5)  And finally, for all those people who say you have to get heavy 
exposure for years to get silicosis:  Maybe you are right that the
stuff used in homes is safer, but I've got a friend whose father died
of silicosis about 15 years after his one and ONLY exposure to asbestos
in his workplace.  It really was silicosis -- they did an autopsy to 
determine that.  So don't panic, but don't think it's innocuous, either.

	Luck,
	Larry

    I didn't say it was innocuous, I said if you keep it drenched and
    breathe through a mask and only do it once in your life then you have
    done everything you can to nullify its effects.
    
    I also said, in another note, that it takes about 15 to 25 years to
    develop asbestosis, so the older you are, the less risk.  I was 51 when
    I did it.
    

    This string of replies also brings out a bigger question around
    do it yourself/ taking responsibility vs. paying ~experts~ and
    getting permits to wipe your nose.
    
    I would suggest that it isn't wrong at all to describe the techniques
    around doing ~anything~ yourself. You are responsible for your actions,
    *not* the person who supplies information in a file like this.
    
    I've seen people become less and less responsible for their own
    actions, and in turn blaming everything from inanimate objects
    (ladders, hammers, etc) to other peoples advice for their 
    *OWN* fault.
    
    At least here, in a file where people pride themselves on DIY, lets
    continue to share imformation so that the people who have
    some pride in themselves can continue to fix and repair things
    themselves!!!
    
    Marc H......off the SoapBox

    If you want the equipment to "do it right," you can get it from
    
    Lab Safety Supply
    P.O. Box 1368
    Janesville, Wisconsin  53547-1368
    1-800-356-0783
    
    They have a huge catalog featuring all kinds of stuff, including
    HEPA vacuums, respirators, and test kits, as well as lab supplies,
    eye protection, trash cans, glassware, lab coats, ladders, and
    on and on.  I don't know if there is any charge for the catalog
    or not.

Nope, no charge for the catalogue, but be warned.  If you order anything from
it, you'll keep receiving it for years. :-)

    Well, after taking another look at how much work it's going to be, 
    (about 100 linear feet) I discussed the matter with the landlords with
    the idea of getting them to hire someone to wrap the pipes. As their
    style is to do what needs to be done to keep things running, but little
    more, they were dubious, but when I mentioned what the EPA said, they
    got  more interested. Of course now the danger is that they will hire
    someone  who is not qualified, unclear on the concept, etc. So I plan
    to get  estimates from a qualified outfit for wrapping and for removal
    and  work from there.     
    
    Meanwhile, this discussion has been pretty interesting, especially this
    stuff about DIY vs. "govt-approved". I fall in the middle -- hard
    facts are useful (from govt-funded research), but overregulation is a 
    menace. 
      
    Lucy

    Well, in the course of the latest round of home renovation I
    discovered four small sections of asbestos around some pipes
    in the cellar.  They were way up in the corners, by the sills,
    and I'd never noticed them before.  I finally discovered it
    when I started taking out some of the pipes and some of the
    asbestos fell off and tumbled all over the floor...I left the
    area, promptly.  
    After asking around, we got Win Hancock of Holden, Mass., to
    remove it.  We had to call the Mass. DEP to get a waiver number
    so he could begin immediately (otherwise you have to file a
    formal application and wait 10 days).  There does seem to be some
    minimum amount for which this is required: 3' seems to be the
    magic number, and we just barely exceeded that, I'm sure.  But
    we did.  The DEP also wanted an air sample taken afterwards.
    Win and an assistant showed up and did the job, then the air
    sample guy did his thing and proved it was clean.  The whole job 
    took an afternoon.  Win now has to file a report with the DEP, I
    guess, but all in all it was pretty painless.  The price, $385 for
    two guys for an afternoon, also doesn't seem all that out of line;
    I'd heard wild estimates of "thousands of dollars" and "incredible
    hassles" and it just wasn't that way.  I'm sure a good part of the
    cost was a minimum for just getting there and setting everything up.
    
    The air sample guy was separate, and considering what he did and how
    long it took him to do it, the pay ain't bad.  But, there is also all
    the travel time he has to pay for; he says he spends most of his time
    driving all over New England.  
    The guy told me he's never known a residence to fail an air test after 
    cleanup, but it's always nice to be sure....
    
    In talking with the air sample guy, he told me a couple of interesting
    things about asbestos.  In still air, asbestos fibers will remain
    suspended for days without settling out.  If there are asbestos fibers
    in the air today, they will be there two or three days from now, just
    sitting there, unless air currents have carried them away.
    There is no known safe limit.  Unlike other things, like lead, which 
    are poisons and the more you ingest the more it affects you in a 
    totally predictable cause/effect relationship, possibly only a single 
    asbestos fiber, in the wrong place in your body, can trigger 
    non-reversible, progressive, and guaranteed fatal body reactions.  Now, 
    the more asbestos you inhale or ingest the more likely it is that that 
    will happen, but it *can* happen with very, very little exposure.  
    
    Asbestos is in a *lot* of stuff, including floor tiles, old asbestos
    shingles, some pegboard (!), and on and on.  The hazard level depends
    on how "friable" it is.  Stuff like powdery pipe insulation is
    friable (it breaks apart easily to release fibers).  Stuff like
    floor tiles are considered non-friable and become a risk only if
    they are drilled, sanded, broken, or otherwise converted to powder.